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ON
CONVERSATION
CONCRETE MUSIC
KINETIC
AND
ART*
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256
listen to him without seeing him. Thus, they concentratedon what he said without his person visually
distracting them. Vision can, indeed, be a distraction. When I listen to a violin being played,
my attention is drawn to the gestures of the violinist
and to the technical aspects of his instrument for
producing sounds-my understanding of the music
he makes is affected by what I see. But when I listen
to the radio or recordings, I am forced to modify my
listening, to penetrate into the sounds alone. This
corresponds, in a way, to reasoning either by
deduction or induction. Listening to live orchestral
music is essentially deductive listening, it is strongly
deduced from vision, whereas listening to the radio
or a phonograph is inductive or acousmatic listening.
M. I suppose one needs to be trainedto listen in an
acousmatic manner. The technique I use to make
kinetic paintings, which I call the Lumidyne system,
is not visible to the viewer [1]. Most viewers at first
want to know what the hidden system is like. Some
are content to watch the painting without knowing
how it is produced.
When I began making paintings of this kind, I
found it very difficultto view the picture as an entity
independent of the technique. I am sure a composer
of piano music is not conscious of the interior
mechanism for producing sounds because the
piano is so well known to him.
S. New listeners to concrete music ask me: 'How
do you do it ?' The question always makes me angry,
as I feel it is none of their business!
M. I am not sure the question is pointless-it is
simply a normal manifestation of human curiosity,
at least for those who do not just love to be mystified.
S. Classical musical instruments are so well
known that they no longer strongly distract one's
attention by wondering what they are. But, unfortunately, when a new instrument appears, attention
is drawn to the instrument rather than to its sounds.
One can say that sounds, like images, only carry
aesthetic significance when they become sufficiently
familiar so that the technical aspect of the production of their message is ignored. This differentiation
is indicated by the terms 'sign' and 'index' that I
used in my 'Traite des objets musicaux' ('Treatise
on Musical Objects') [2]. The term 'sign' was
introduced by Saussure in linguistics to bring out
the fact that words refer to something and, thus,
have meaning. A sign is supported by meaning.
When I speak, you can analyse my words for their
sound but, actually, you listen to them for their
meaning. On the other hand, if you listen to my
words to learn whether I have a cold, you do not pay
attention to their meaning. Here a word serves as an
'index'. One searches for the cause of the particular
sounds of the words. Since I understood these two
characteristicsof sound, I found it easier to synthesize sounds and to connect them than did many
others interested in music made of such sounds.
A blending of sounds with images to obtain
aesthetically satisfying results requires an understanding of each of their basic characteristics. I
do not believe that, when sounds correspond
naturally to images, one obtains a satisfying audiovisual art. But when sounds are combined artificially
with images one might arrive at satisfying combinations.
M. It is reasonably obvious that audio-visual art
poses difficult problems. The processes of hearing
sounds and of seeing images are quite different.
Listening to music is a differentiating process,
whereas, viewing a picture is an integrating one.
Furthermore, one can listen comfortably to a
succession of sounds of a much higher speed than
in the case of a succession of images.
S. I, also, have looked for a parallel between
what can be seen by introducing the 'octave of
colours' of electromagnetic vibrations of visible
light and the 7 to 8 octaves of mechanical vibrations
that can be perceived by the ear. This comparison
is tempting to make.
The research that I did on this some years ago is
completely out of date. The eye and the ear do react
to vibrations but of a very different kind and many
have been led to make a false comparison. The
meaning of sounds and images has nothing to do
with wave lengths. Although we are made up of
atoms and molecules, it is not these atoms and molecules, as such, that determineour hearingand seeing;
they are a part of a vast superstructurethat makes
up the eye and the ear.
M. I agree that attempts at correlating sounds
and colors have been unproductive. There are
conventions that can undoubtedly be established
for such correlations but there do not appear to be
physiological or psychological bases for them.
S. One could make the following experiment.
Images of sounds can be produced easily on a
television screen by using an oscilloscope. Each
sound produces a very nice visual story on the screen.
One cannot deny that this is simultaneous perception by ear and eye. What one sees does have a
meaning, for the image is produced by what one
hears. This demonstration has intrigued me a lot
because it seemed to indicate a possible connection
between hearing and seeing. This seems to contradict my preceding opinion that it is based on superstructures. What one actually sees and hears in this
audio-visual experiment is not an explanation of
causes but simply a correlation between simultaneous events: the image of vibrations is correlated to
sound vibrations. This is simply a temporal correlation. When the sound seems very simple, the image
may also be simple; when the sound is very complex,
the image is sometimes also very complex. Here we
are at the heart of the matter. In fact, an audiovisual causal relationship is realized here at the level
of signs. Indices refer to complexity but remain
distinct from signs. One hears a 'la' and one sees at
the same moment, say, an ellipse. But an ellipse
in no way means 'la' and nothing in the sound of 'la'
signifies an ellipse. One must look for a connection
in the signs (which are two similar vibratory phenomena) but not in the objects that produce them.
M. I have made an experiment with a kinetic
painting on a translucent screen in which the images
257
with light projected through lined glass to give luminous colored lines advancingin close rows, marching
in perfect order. Our technician in charge of sound
dubbing, Jeannette Berton, provided a military
march to go with the film. At once the image was
interpreted: it was the 14th of July parade in Paris!
It would be interesting to find some important
structural relations in images, similar to, for instance, intervals in music and a relationship between
intervals. We constantly add sounds to images and
images to sounds in the cinema and in television:
and it works. When one wants music to go with a
film sequence, one searches for a piece of music
already composed or asks a composer to write it.
The music should reinforce the meaning of the film
sequence and there should be a correlation of
rhythms. But if one takes a film and dubs in
haphazardly any music from records or tapes,
experience shows that the spectator will still find a
significant correlation between them. Sounds
always reinforce images in one way or another.
Ridiculous or comic effects are easiest to produce.
The combination of sounds and images gives more
to a spectator than either of them alone. Of course,
very loud sounds often are used to distract the spectator's attention from the poor quality of the visual
material.
M. There is no unique combination of an image
with a sound. One has enormous freedom of choice.
In concrete music, where there are no musical
stereotypes for gaiety, tragedy, comedy etc., it is
perhaps easier for listeners to avoid looking for
them and to exercise their own visual imagination.
Thomas Wilfred, an early pioneer of kinetic art with
light images on a translucent screen, although at
first he used his Lumia technique in connection with
music, later became strongly opposed to the idea
of combining his Lumia works with music.
S. It seems useless to protest against anthropomorphic interpretations, even of concrete music.
Perhaps they are unavoidable.
M. What do you think of music using sounds
made by an electronic synthesizer rather than
traditional musical sounds or recordings of natural
sounds ?
S. Probably sounds made by violins, pianos etc.
form the nucleus of the best sounds, a little like in the
mathematics of geometry where Euclidian geometry is easiest for us to comprehend because it
corresponds to common experience. I think that
this nucleus of sounds possesses, at the same time,
specific and abstract qualities. They are easily
heard, they provide tones that are well within the
range of the seven octaves of the vibrations that we
can hear, their duration can be controlled to correspond to the duration of human movements. When
one leaves the natural world of sound and one hears
a new sound with which one is not acquainted, the
tendency is for it to be called wonderful. But I
believe that we should not be pleased too easily.
Because a sound is new does not mean it is significant. As I pointed out earlier, one may only be
intrigued by the technique used to produce it.
258
259
260
REFERENCES
1. F. J. Malina, Kinetic Painting: The Lumidyne
System,Leonardo1, 25 (1968).
2. F. J. Malina, Some Reflectionson the Differences
between Science and Art, in Directions in Art,
Theory and Aesthetics, A. Hill, ed. (London: Faber
Universitairesde France,1967).
6. P. Schaeffer,'Etudeaux objets';'Etudeauxallures';
'Etude aux sons animes'; 'Concert de bruits';
'Oiseau RAI'; and 'Suite 14', phonographdisk,
PhilipsProspective,No. 6521-021,1972.