Interesting topic and some interesting replies.

A battery is not the sole thing responsible for

starting a motorcycle it also depends on the ignition system. Coming to the near dead or
fully dead battery on motorcycles with CB point, CDI and TCI ignition. I wont get into a very
technical discussion but very basic explanation. Let us take them one by one:
CB point: It is very difficult to start as motorcycle with a dead battery having a CB point
ignition. The CB point ignition is extinct in modern motorcycles and is only used by old
motorcycles read RE Standard Bullet CI, Yamaha RD350, Jawa Yezdi, etc. (the latter two
also came with CDI ignition at later stages but for now let's stick to CB point ignition). The
CB points require the battery to be in good condition to kick start the bike else one can
resort to push starting the motorcycle which will eventually start the motorcycle. If the
battery is low on charge then it will be recharged by the alternator, if the battery has no
charging ability due to age and shelf life then it will keep giving troubles until replaced with
a new battery. The battery can also be jump started using jumper cables and a donor
battery provided one knows the correct polarity to avoid short circuit. Today we also have
palm sized Lithium battery jump starters(read expensive) along with traditional jump starter
kits which boosts the amps to start the motorcycle with a near dead battery.
CDI ignition: Due to its ability to start a motorcycle without a battery most of the dirt bikes
uses this ignition. A dirt bike has no lights or horn whatsoever so it does not require a
battery to power these electricals. Most motorcycles from the 1970's and 80's used a CDI
ignition which was fairly reliable and trouble free compared to CB points. Same reason why
we see many Yamaha RD350 owners converting their bikes from CB point to CDI ignition.
We have two motorcycles in my family which uses CDI ignition one is my own 2004 RE Tbird
AVL 350 and other is the first gen Hero Honda CBZ. Both these motorcycles start with a
near dead or without a battery, even during cold winter days. I believe the alternators used
in CDI ignition motorcycles are heavy duty compared to their CB point and TCI
counterparts. To give an example my brother in law who has the first generation Hero
Honda CBZ with CDI keeps the bike standing for 3-4 months as he is merchant navy. After
coming back he kicks the kick lever about 5-6 times and the CBZ roars to life. He has been
doing this since the bought the bike. When I bought my used 2004 Tbird AVL 350 CDI the
previous owner had fitted a puny UPS battery for namesake. I was going to throw it out but
decided to carry on with it. I haven't replaced the battery as yet and the bike still runs albeit
the horns, indicators and lights feel weak.
Quoting from Wikipedia: "A CDI system has a short charging time, a fast voltage rise
(between 3 ~ 10 kV/s) compared to typical inductive systems (300 ~ 500 V/s) and a
short spark duration limited to about 50-80 s. The fast voltage rise makes CDI systems
insensitive to shunt resistance. The insensitivity to shunt resistance and the ability to fire
multiple sparks can provide improved cold starting ability."
"CDI modules are of two types AC-CDI and DC-CDI: The AC-CDI module obtains its
electricity source solely from the alternating current produced by the alternator. The AC-CDI
system is the most basic CDI system which is widely used in small engines. The DC-CDI
module is powered by the battery, and therefore an additional DC/AC inverter circuit is
included in the CDI module to raise the 12 V DC to 400-600 V DC, making the CDI module

slightly larger. However, vehicles that use DC-CDI systems have more precise ignition
timing and the engine can be started more easily when cold."
TCI ignition: Again this behaves somewhat like a CB point while the battery is near dead or
dead while starting the bike, however there is where the story ends as TCI is miles ahead of
CB point both in terms of efficiency and ease of maintenance. One can push start the bike
provided it uses a carburettor and not an EFi. A TCI takes a lot of power from the charging
system to power the spark plug in order to provide a longer and more powerful spark for
combustion and fuel efficiency. A TCI ignition motorcycle with a near dead or dead battery
can be jump started using a donor battery with jumper cables or the palm sized lithium
jump starter booster.
All these systems come with their own advantages and disadvantages, I have multiple
motorcycles and face this issue of battery drain. The solution I have come up with is using a
motorcycle battery charger which I use to charge the battery when it becomes weak. I can't
use float charging as I don't have a dedicated garage wherein I can keep the charger
plugged in to the battery to float charge. Another useful accessory I plan to buy is a pocket
sized lithium battery jump starter which will help me jump start a discharged battery within
seconds.
Lastly I always take the keys of my CDI Tbird AVL 350 as a backup whenever I have to go
out. If my CB point Bullets and TCI Tbird500 don't start at the nth hour, I key in to my CDI
Tbird AVL which starts without a fuss come winter or rain.

CDI:
When you kick-start, it rotates the engine which in turn rotates the stator. The stator
provides the ac current to charge the Capacitor.
For trigger, there is a pickup coil. A flywheel with a fixed magnet rotates close to the pickup
coil and when the magnet crosses the pickup coil, it generates a low voltage pulse which
works as a firing signal
When the firing signal is received by the CDI unit, it gives the input to discharge the
capacitor. This generates current through the primary coil in the ignition coil unit. This
current is amplified by the secondary coil and sent directly to spark plug. The volts sent to
spark plug is usually in a range of 600 to 2000 volts providing enough juice to create the
spark.
The stator also provides power to the electrical components, like horn, headlight, blinkers
and rectifier/regulator. The rectifier converts the ac into dc and feeds the battery for
recharging.
Here are a couple of youtube links which helped me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yK3Opq_i0M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEXJWHlA3CE

This summarizes the functioning of a CDI system. The battery has no role to play in this
system and hence a bike using CDI can be kick-started with a dead or even no battery with
ease.
TCI:
Whatever little information I can find on TCI says that it has a transistor which controls the
ignition timings. Big surprise that Transistorized Control Ignition has a transistor.
The following link also indicates that the primary coil is connected directly to the battery.
But that will make push-starting the bike impossible (Something that I have done
successfully in the past)
http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFaq.pdf
Questions:

Seeking help from the electrical gurus to get info on the following queries:
CDI :
1) Is stator and alternator the same thing? If not, where does the alternator fits in the
scenario above?
TCI :
Does TCI has a capacitor like CDI which feeds the primary ignition coil?
If the timing of ignition is controlled by transistors, what is the role of pickup coil? Does this
system even has a pickup coil?
What is the role of stator in this system?
How is TCI different from CDI (apart from having a transistor)

here continues with the basic types of transistor ignitionsystems (breaker-point and magnetic-pulse),
thecapacitor discharge ignition system, the Chryslerelectronic ignition system, the Delco-Remy
unitizedignition system, and the Ford computerized ignitionsystem.TRANSISTOR IGNITION
SYSTEM(BREAKER-POINT TYPE)The breaker-point type of transistor ignition systemwas developed
to replace the standard or conventionalignition system. To obtain the maximum power andspeed that this
engine can produce, you must install anignition system that outperforms the conventional one.Electronic
type of ignition systems provide a hotter,more uniform spark at a more precise interval. Thispromotes more
efficient burning of the air/fuel mixturein the combustion chamber, producing less exhaustemissions, and
resulting in better engine performanceand increased mileage. The increased reliability ofelectronic

ignition allows less frequent maintenance byincreasing parts life. At high speeds, the breaker pointsof a
conventional ignition system cannot handle theincreased current flowing across them without pittingtoo
much. Also, the dwell angle of the breaker points istoo small for complete saturation of the ignition coil.The
transistorized ignition system takes care of bothdrawbacks.By comparing figures 4-28 and 4-29, you can
seehow the transistor ignition system differs from theconventional. When the breaker points are
connected tothe transistor, as shown in figure 4-29, it nearlyeliminates arcing across them since the
current flow issmall (about one-half ampere). However, the currentflow in the primary windings of the coil is
about 6amperes. This amount is enough to saturate the coilcompletely at high engine speeds, and results in
a higheroutput to the secondary circuit. Therefore, the transistorignition system is superior to the
conventional system athigh engine speeds because there is less arcing acrossFigure 4-28.Conventional ignition system.Figure 4-29.-Transistor ignition system (breaker-point type).the
breaker points and higher and steadier voltage in thesecondary circuit

TRANSISTOR IGNITION SYSTEM(MAGNETIC-PULSE TYPE)The drawbacks of a conventional ignition

systemoperating at high engine speeds can also be overcomewith the magnetic-pulse type of
transistor ignitionsystem (fig. 4-30). Notice that a magnetic pulsedistributor, which resembles a
conventional distributor,is used instead of a breaker-point type of distributor. Aniron timer core in this
distributor replaces the standardbreaker cam. The timer core has equally spacedprojections (one for
each cylinder of the engine) androtates inside a magnetic pickup assembly. This pickupassembly replaces the
breaker plate assembly of theconventional distributor. Since there are no breakerpoints and there is no
condenser, there can be no arcingacross them. Capacitors in this system are for noisesuppression. This
overcomes one of the drawbacksalready mentioned. The other drawback is overcome bycontrolling the
amount of current that flows through theprimary windings of the ignition coil and to ground.Transistors in
the ignition pulse amplifier do thecontrolling. Another feature of this transistor ignitionsystem is its
coil, which has fewer and heavier primarywindings and a higher turns ratio of primary tosecondary
windings than the conventional coil.Controlling the current flow and using a special coil

Figure 4-29.-Transistor ignition system (breaker-point type).

Figure 4-28.-Conventional ignition system

transistor ignition system

Figure 4-30.-Magnetic-pulse type

Transistorized Ignition
This component is part of Ignition System.

Definition
The 230, 250 and early 280SL ignition system is conventional with a hot wire going to the ignition coil after passing
through a ballast resistor which drops the voltage down to around 8.5 volts. This resistor is in series all the time,
including during start-up. With this basic system the coil current could not be increased much above 3A without
seriously shortening the service life of the points, thus placing an upper limit on the attainable spark energy. Also,
erosion of the points caused by arcing leads to timing drift and necessiates frequent service intervals.
It was against this background that the first transistor assisted ignition system was developed, and current through
the contact points significantly reduced. Although an improvement over the basic system, despite the use of special
contact breaker points they remained the most common cause of ignition faults in service on 6 and 8 cylinder
engines.
A special low-resistance (0.4) high-current coil with a step-up ratio of around 1:185 (rather than the more normal
1:100 for a conventional points driven ballasted coil) had to be used. The coil carried the Bosch blue color with a
yellow sticker marked Transistor. This system was characterised by two ballast resistors, 0.6 (with metallic clamp
band) in series with the coil and 0.4 (with a blue clamp band) in series with the ignition amplifier, the latter resistor
being shorted during cranking to give increased spark energy when starting. Because the peak coil current was of the
order of 7 amps and the dwell angle with points necessarily large, all the components of the ignition system
generated a significant amount of waste heat, not least the amplifier unit which was housed in a cast aluminium box.
On Pagodas, this box is mounted under the battery tray.
For quicker starting, a resistor bypass circuit can be easily hooked up on early cars. See Ignition Coils section for
details and additional wiring diagrams.

Mercedes Benz Transistorized Ignition Wiring (Typical 113 Chassis)

The diagram shows a typical transistorized ignition system as used with the 113 Chassis, specifically the 1969
280SL. The switch gear is part of the latter W113 models' transistorized ignition system. The box contains a transistor
and is encased in a resin as protection to vibrations and corrosion.
This system significantly reduces point current by using a high power transistor - located inside the module - to
handle the current through the ignition coil; the points simply trigger the transistor. The diagram below shows the
internal layout of the ignition module. The following text explains how the module works and how the current through
the points is reduced.
In order to better understand how the system functions, one needs to understand the Mercedes Benz numbering
convention used in their diagrams. The numbers used to identify the terminals on switches, modules and other

components follow a specific convention to tell the reader what voltage or signal is found on the terminal. The
standard convention is shown below in the table.

Mercedes Benz (Bosch) Transistorized Ignition - Internal Layout of Module

Terminal Number

Definition

Ignition coil negative (-) terminal

15

+12 Volts switched (ON/RUN position of the ignition switch)

16

+12 Volts when the engine is cranking (from starter motor)

30

+12 Volts direct from the battery, not switched

50

+12 Volts when the ignition switch is in the START position

+12 Volts when the ignition switch is in the RADIO or ON/RUN position

How the Transistorized System Works

Transistorised Ignition
When the ignition switch is set to the ON/RUN position, +12 Volts is applied to terminal 15 of the ignition module
through the 0.4 Ohm ballast resistor. When the ignition switch is set to the START position (engine cranking) +12
volts is applied directly to terminal 15 of the ignition module from the solenoid on the starter motor. This effectively
bypasses the 0.4 ohm ballast resistor and offers higher voltage during cranking.
When the engine starts and the ignition switch is returned to the ON/RUN position, +12 Volts is again supplied to
terminal 15 of the ignition module through the 0.4 Ohm ballast resistor.
A typical firing sequence is as follows.
1.

+12 Volts is applied to the ignition module through the 0.4 ballast resistor

2.

Assuming that the points in the distributor are open, transistor Q1 is turned off because terminal 7 of the
ignition module is open (no ground from the points). No voltage is present at terminal 16 of the ignition
module, thus no current flows through the 0.6 Ohm ballast resistor or the ignition coil.

3.

As the engine cranks, the hexagonal cam in the distributor begins to turn and the points close.

4.

When the points close, a ground is applied to terminal 7 of the ignition module and transistor Ql turns on.
This applies +12 Volts to terminal 15 of the ignition coil through the 0.6 ballast resistor. The current through
the points is extremely small (thousandths of an Ampere or milli-amperes) instead of 4-5 Amperes as seen in
a non-transistorized system.

5.

When transistor Q1 is turned ON, capacitor C2 is discharged (shorted by Q1).

6.

When the points open, capacitor C2 begins to charge. The charge path is: +12 Volts from the ignition switch
- 0.4 ballast resistor - C2 - 0.6 ballast resistor and the ignition coil to ground.

7.

As capacitor C2 begins to charge, a pulse is created in the ignition coil, which causes a high voltage to be
generated and sent to the appropriate spark plug.

8.

When the points close again, transistor Q1 is turned ON and the cycle repeats.

Point wear and stress is significantly reduced since the transistor is handling the current through the coil (4-5
Amperes). The points were designed to switch high currents repeatedly for tens-of-thousands of miles, therefore,
when switching a very small current, they should last for a much longer time. Tune-up intervals (due to point failure)
become longer and vehicle maintenance becomes cheaper.
But (yes, there's always a "but"), we still have the points. Points are mechanical, subject to bounce and vibration and
must be actuated - mechanically - by the camshaft in the distributor. Whereas the wear on the point contacts has
been reduced, the fiber pawl, which rides between the points and the distributor camshaft, can still wear out or break.
Electronic Ignitions provide solutions for this.

Maintenance
The switch gear component is installed under the battery box. Remove the battery and the battery frame plate. The
switch gear box can then be seen.
If the switch gear fails, the entire unit needs to be replaced... MB Part No. 000 545 18 32

Switchgear box

Switchgear circuit diagram

Verifying if your switching unit is bad

This can be done using this procedure. It takes a bit of guidance to find the right wires and bypass the switching unit if
it is not functioning correctly. The car will run with the unit bypassed, if the points are good and there are no other
obvious ignition problems.
Symptoms for a bad switching unit:
The car will either start right up and run cleanly, especially when cold. Suddenly it will stumble and cut-out after only
seconds (or after 10 minutes of driving). Once the problem occurs it seems to get progressively harder to keep
running for more than a few seconds until it finally just cranks and seems to show either no spark or very weak spark.
Troubleshooting it today from cold engine condition, it started right up smoothly, then died after 20 seconds. On all
subsequent starting attempts (basically still with a cold engine) it starts up and then stumbles very erratically in idle
until it dies after several seconds, sometimes it races up to fast idle for a second and then dies. Fuel is plentiful and
pressurized. It seems like the ignition is arbitrarily cutting out. I know this could sound like the ballast resistors which I
have both checked and replaced, as well as the coil, high-tension ignition lead and more. I also replaced the
transistorized ignitions "black box" with another one. Do all of these symptoms together sound familiar to anyone?
Otherwise I'm not quite sure where to go next except for checking wiring shorts or breaks.

Transistorised Ignition System testing

Switchgear testing diagram

Testing of Transistorized Coil Ignition in Vehicle with the Engine Stopped

Measure voltage on primary winding of ignition coil with a voltmeter.

Switch-off ignition, check whether breaker contact is closed. If not, keep rotating engine until contact is
closed.

Connect black cable of voltmeter to ground, red cable to terminal 15 of ignition coil (see diagram above, Fig.
15-20/3).

Switch on ignition and read voltage on voltmeter. Rated value: 2.6-3.5 Volt

Open make-and-break contact. The voltage should return to zero.

Testing of Ignition Coil

Disconnect all connections on ignition coil. The primary resistance between terminal 1 and 15 is 0.38-0.43
at 20 C.

Connections 1 and 15 should not be connected to ground.

Measure with a conventional resistance measuring bridge. The ohm ranges in a standard multiple tester are
generally too inaccurate for such tests.

At an ignition coil temperature of approx. 80 C the resistance measured is approx. 25% higher.

Testing of series resistances

Disconnect connecting lines.

Test terminals for body contact. Measure resistance with a measuring bridge.

1.

Rated value 0.4 0.05 at 20 C. Resistance (2) between ignition switch and switch-gear.

2.

Rated value 0.6 0.05 at 20 C. Resistance (4) between switchgear and ignition