CaliforniaGathering2016

#Transcriptionintroduction

SomeBitcoindevelopersandminersgatheredtogetherduringtheendoftheJulytosocialize
andbecomebetteracquaintedwitheachother.Thefollowingdiscussionswerelivetranscribed
byanuntrainedvolunteerwithattributionremovedasperChathamHouserules.Inbitcoin,
discussionscanmoveveryquickly,whichcancauseanincreaseinerrors,includingsemantic
errors,whentypinginrealtime.Thistextwasnotproducedfromanaudiorecording.Anyerrors
arethefaultofthetranscriber.Wehopethatbysharingthesenoteswiththebroadercommunity
thatabroaderdiscussioncanbecultivatedandwecanallgettobetterknowourperspectives
andeachother.

PDF:http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/cali2016.pdf

Text:http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016julybitcoindevelopersminersmeeting/cali2016/

#Somebreakfastnotes(20160730)

((SomewordsfrombreakfastwhenIranintosomefolks.))

Hashrateandpricearedependent.Soundslikeit.Hashrateisprotection.Additionalvolume,
you'redecreasingtheprice.Itseemsthatway.

Withtoday'shashrate,comparedtotwoyearsagobecauseit'ssohigh,...well,tome,
ethereumhashrateisalsomoreelasticthanbitcoinbecauseyoucanmineitwithGPUandyou
canrentGPUsfromgenisysmining,theyhaveadatacenterforGPUmining,youcanrentthem
bythedayyoucanrentGPUsfromamazon,andsoon.Ifitbecomes10xmoreprofitableto
mine,thehashratecangowoosh.ButinbitcointhisisnotthecasebecauseASICproduction
takeslonger.

Basiceconomyruleschangedinethereumallthetime.Youcanneverbesurewhattheywillbe
onthenextday.Solidity,forexample.Theyshouldchangeit.PoWtoPoSforethereum.It'sa
badidea.It'stakingtherootsoftheeconomyandreplacingitfordifferentone.

Ifyoubuyafinancialinstrument,likeabondorsomething,wherethereisadefinitionofthe

financialasset,that'simportant.ButnowitswhatevertheEthereumFoundationdecides.

Theethereumpolicyisaboutthegas,soitcanbecheaporexpensiveforsmartcontractone
day.Gaspricewillbechanged,soacontractcouldjuststopworkingthenextday.

Youcanbesurethatabuildingcouldberunningfor100years.Butifyouarechangingtherules
inthecontracts,youcannotrelyonthat.ThepeoplemakingthedecisionsinEFhaveaconflict
ofinterestregardingTheDAO.Iwouldsay,inmyopinion,rescuingTheDAOwasbadfor
Ethereum.Theyweredoingitbecausetheywerelosingmoney.

Ethereumdatablockchainsizeisgrowingexponentially.Itisabigproblemforthem.Alotof
garbageinthere.

Howwouldyouconvincepeoplethatyoucannottrustthatblockchain?Andwhataboutthe
peoplewhofeeldisenfranchisedaboutanyblockchainatall?It'sgoodforsomeoneotherthan
youtomakeamistake,sothatpeoplecanrealizewhatthedifferenceis.Whenyouhavea
warningafterthat,it'snolongerhypothetical.

Inethereum,therearenotthatmanynodes.Howcouldtherebe,youcanlookathowlongit
takestosyncasitcontinuestoexponentiallygrow,itwillatsomepointbeimpossibletosync.
Also,eachnodewontbeabletorunthesmartcontractsanyway,ifit'sgrowingtooquickly.

....(breakfasttovenuetransition)....

Someoneneedstomakebeaniebabieswithprivatekeysembeddedinside.Howmuchisabit?
It'samillionth?Dowehaveenoughchairs?25totalchairs.Wellthereweresupposedtobe25
people.Maybeweshouldstartwithoutthemoderator.Maybeweshouldintroduceourselves.
Ohthereheis.Sinceweareallintroduced,shouldwegetstarted?Whowouldliketobreakthe
groundfirst?Howaboutreviewofotherconversations?LessonsfromEthereum.Likean
example,it'sagoodexample.Bothgoodandbadexamples.Bettercooperationand
communicationinthefuture.Lotshashappenedtoimprovecommunication,itwouldbegoodto
lookathowthathasimprovedthings.

Afterthis,itwouldbenicetotalkaboutwhatdevelopersareworkingonandinterested.Miners
aswell.Maybevoiceyourconcernsorsomething.Itwouldbegoodtogettoknoweachother.
Maybesmallergroups.Weareallfacingeachother.Itmakesitfeelseriouswhenwearesitting
likethis.Anothergoodtopicwouldbefungibility.

Lunchwillbearrivingatnoonaccordingtothepersonfromthebuilding.Therearesomefood
containersthatarelabeledbehindus

#Introductions

Whatareyouguysworkingon?Whathaveyoupreviouslydoneandwhatareyouworkingon
now?

Iwasworkingonacloudminingplatform,theonlyonethatwasn'taponzi.Beforethat,Iwas
workingonanexchange.Ibelieveitistheonlyonewherenobodywenttoprison[laughs].At
themomentIhavebeenworkingoncodeforthewallettoworkbetterandfaster.Improvingthe
walletsoftware.Thereisalsoanissueofinitialblocksync.It'smoreexpensivetodoaninitial
blocksync,thankeepupwiththenetwork.Ifyouhaveagrowingblockchain,thenthetimeto
syncisrelatedtothis.ThiswaspresentedattheScalingBitcoinMontreal.It'saninherent
property.It'sthepartwhereittakesforeverthefirsttimeyourunBitcoinCore.Maybein5years
time,perhapsnobodywouldbeabletodownloadtheblockchain.Ittakesalongtimetovalidate
thataswell.It'snotjustthetimetodownloadit.

Theyhavealsobeenworkingonthesameproblems.Theywouldliketoexchangethoughtsand
experienceonthat.

Okaysoundsgood.Nextperson.

Analyzingbitcoinandhowitworksinternally.Iwassearchingforpotentialvulnerabilitiesin
BitcoinCore.Atleast,seriousvulnerabilities.IalsohaveaneconomicsdegreeandIunderstand
howBitcoinfunctionsonaneconomiclevel.Thisalsoappliestoethereumandsimilaraltcoins.I
understandthevectorsofinterestinblockchainandbitcoinfromdifferentroleslikeusersand
minersandhowtheyimpacteachother.

Couldyoutalkaboutwhatyouareworkingonnow?

Wehavebeendesigningminingchipsandthinkingaboutthefuture.Wearealsoworkingon
andbuildingmarineshippingcontainersforbitcoinmining.Immersioncooling.It'snotaircooled.
It'sapproximatelyfrom11to12petahashesinoneshippingcontainer.Usesahalfmegawattfor
power.Three'sabigcablethisthickforpoweringthecontainer.Youjustneedthepoweratyour
location.Youcouldinstallitinsideadatacenter.Ifyouuseimmersioncooling,youcancontinue
longlifeevenwithpartialcracksandbreakups.

Howdoyougetridoftheheatfromthewholecontainer?Areyoupumpingwaterin?

Also,whatwouldyoulikeoutofthisdiscussion?

Practically,Iaminastrangeposition.Iamworkingforacompany.Andit'salsoaninertial

company.Atthesametime,Iliketheideaofbitcoin.Iwassearchingforsomethingsimilarfor
manyyears.Iwasthinkingaboutelectronicmoneyandit'sonewayformostotherthings.Ilike
bitcoinitself.Evenifthecompanywilldie,Iwillstillcontinuetoworksomewhererelatedto
bitcoin.IlikebitcoinandIwouldliketokeepitupandrunningandhelppeopleunderstandwhy
itisworking.

Anyconcernsorissuesthatyouwouldliketotalkabout?Ethereumandbitcoineconomics.

IhavebeenworkingonBitcoinCoresincesummer2011.Ihavebeenresponsibleforalotof
thecodeinCoreandmakingitfaster.Ifoundseveralsignificantbugs.Iamalsotheprimary
authoroflibsecp256k1.Ihavebeenworkingonsegregatedwitnessproposal.Thatisthemain
thingIamworkingonrightnow.GettingBitcoinCoretoversion0.13.Andlateraversionwith
segwitincludedandactivatedonthenetwork.Inthenearfuture,IwouldliketoworkonSchnorr
signatures,signatureaggregation,betterscriptinglanguageasasuccessortosegwitmaking
useofitsversioningsupport,andvariousotherideasforimprovingthingsintheshortterm.

HeisworkingonATMmachines,bitcoinwallet,andmining.Andahardwarewallet.Oneofhis
interestsishowtomakemininginChinamoredecentralized.Becausethecentralizationof
mininginChina,there'smoreconcentration.Developedat10nm.Decentralizethehashratein
thefuture.

IhavebeenworkingonBitcoinCoresince20xx.Ihavebeenmaintainingadifferentversionof
BitcoinCorecalledBitcoinKnots.Ihaveworkedongetblocktemplate.Ihavebeenworkingona
hardforkproposalbutIdon'tknowifit'sgoinganywhere.

Anopensourceminingpool,..he'sworkingonablockchainexplorer,btc.com,andalsoan
opensourceminingpool.It'snotpartofBitmain.

IstartedworkingonBitcoinabouttwoorthreeyearsago.IworkonNBitcoin.It'slikebitcoinjbut
it'sdotNET.Ihavealsomadeablockexploreronbitcoin.ninja.Mygoalwithmylibraryisto
helpwithsomerequestscominginfromCore.IhavebeencontributingtoBitcoinCorebecause
asIwanttostayclosetothelatesttesting,Ineedtobeabletounderstandthissourcecode.So
IstartedcontributingtoCoreearlierthisyear.Onbitcoin.ninja,itwasthefirstblockexplorerthat
implementedsegwit.AnotheruserofNBitcoinissmartbit,ablockexplorer,auserfriendlyblock
explorerwhichimplementedsegwitbecausetheyareusingmylibrary.Iamworkingonfiat
moneyontheblockchainbyusingcoloredcoinsprotocol.Mygoalistomakeitscalable,using
paymentchannelsandpaymenthubs.That'swhyIaminterestedinsegwitand
checksequenceverify.

IworkforMITDCIbutIamgiventhefreedomtoworkonwhateverIwantinBitcoin.Istartedon
theboringstuff.Likethebuildsystemandthereleaseprocessandthemoreinternal
developmentprocesses.Mygoalandreasonforgettinginvolvedwastogetthedevelopment
processmorespecializedwhereexpertswouldn'thavetoknoweverysingledetail.Atthe

momentBitcoinCoreisdifficultbecauseyouhavetoknowaboutmoreparts.Iwantsome
peopletobeabletobespecializedareasinsomeareasbutnotothers.Oneexampleis
libbitcoinconsensuswhichwegotgoingin0.10awhileago.It'salibrarythatusesthesame
codeasBitcoinCorethatletsyouverifytransactions.Mygoalandthegoalofothersincrease
modularizationandlibbitcoinconsensusfunctionality.Makeitindependently.Iamworkingatthe
momentonthep2pfunctionality,gettingitpushedonitsown,toliveseparate,sothatit'swalled
offfromtherestofthecode.

IdomanydifferentthingsintheBitcoinspace.Ihavemanydifferentjobs,youcouldsay.Alotof
ithascommonthreadsthroughit.Iamusuallythinkingabout5and10yeartimeframeswith
thisideathatBitcoinexistswithacarefulbalanceofincentivesandbalance.MuchoftheworkI
doistryingtoexpandthespaceofopportunitiesthatBitcoincanbesuccessfulin.Makeitwork
undermoreconditions,makeitworkunderweakerassumptions,makeitworkinthepresence
ofmaliciousactors,andworktoexpandthetechnologytoexpandtomoreapplications.This
overlapswiththeworkIdoatBlockstreamwherewetakeBitcointechtofinancecompanies
andconvertthemtoBitcointechandusetheincomefromthattomakemoreBitcoin
infrastructuretechinvestments.WhenIseeanincentiveproblem,apoliticalproblemor
something,Isearchfortechthatimprovesthatandtakeittootherstogetthesolutionbuilt.

Okay,thanks.

WhenIgotintobitcoin,thereweren'ttoolsforsecuringbitcoin.Istartedtoworkonmyown
librariestobuildmyownapplications.IbuiltawalletappwhichIcouldusetostoremyown
coinssecurely.IbegantocontributetoCoreandmakethewallet.Irealizeditwashardtomake
contributions.Itwasbecauseofthenatureofthetechnology.Ifoundtheteamtobeamazing
andreallycoolpeople.Therewasalotofgreatcollaboration.Itwasjusthardtochangethings.
AfterawhileIfiguredouthowtogetintotheprocessandstartmakingcontributions.Most
recentlyIhaveworkedonthesegregatedwitnessstuff.Ibegantogetconcernedaboutsocial
attackvectors.There'scryptographybutthenthere'ssocialattackvectors.Peoplebegantobe
veryhostileandnegative.Inoticedthatthiscouldbeaverymajorweaknessofthesystem
wherepeoplecouldcomeandcreatepolarizations.Wehavenowseenthisinacapitalized
network.ThisiswhereIhavebeenfocusingnow,tryingtofigureouthowtopreventthesocial
attackvectors,howtoimprovecommunicationwiththecommunityandbecomestronger.
Everythingfromthelastfewyearshashelpedourimmunesystem.Wewillbefacinglarger
adversariesinthefuture.Therewillbeadversarieswithmuchlargerresourcestothrowatus
andIwanttobepreparedforthat.

Okay,thanks.

Ithinkthatpeopledon'tseeeachotherfacetofacemightencouragesomeofthesocialmedia
attackvectors.

Okay,mystoryisalittlebitdifferent.MostofmytimeistakenuponnonBitcoinsoftware.Iama

leaddeveloperforacommunicationssoftwareandradiosignal.That'smyprofessionallife.I
havebeeninthesecurityspaceforafewdecades.IhavebeeninBitcoinsince2012.Icomeat
thiswithadifferentperspective.OurnonBitcoinprojecthasamuchlargercodebase,much
smalleruserbaseandalsoit'snotinsanelypoliticized.It'sinterestingtocomparehowthat
opensourceprojectcomparestothisone.Ididoneofthepythonreferenceimplementationsfor
bip32.Mycontributionshavebeenfairlysmallintermsofdirectcodefortheproject.Ido
considerableworkinthemachinelearningspace,mostlyrelatedtoradiosignalprocessing.Iam
interestedinapplyingthesemachinelearningtechniquestoblockchainandnetworkanalysisfor
anomalydetectionoranalysisonfungibilityorforensictypestuff.Iaminterestedinapplyingthe
samemachinelearningtechniquesfromradiosignalprocessingtoblockchainanalysis.

It'saplatform.It'snotawallet.It'sawalletplatform.Alsobuildingaminingfactory.Buildingboth
aminingfactoryandalsoaminingpoolwithabout70petahash.

Okay,thankyou.

IamprobablymostwellknownforCHECKSEQUENCEVERIFYwhichrecentlyactivated.I
workedonthatbecauseIwasinterestedinlightningnetwork.Weneededchecksequenceverify
andamalleabilityfix,whichissegwit.Nowthatoneisdeployedandoneisclose,Ihavea
researchinterestinmakinglightningnetworkhappen.Thereisenoughpeopleworkingon
lightningforpayments.Myinterestindoingdistributedexchanges,creditcurrencies,likeIOUs
insteadofhardcurrency.Debtbasedcurrenciesonlightningnetwork.Iamdoingresearchon
newscriptinglanguageandtools.Eitherthiswouldbeanopcodeextension,orperhapsentirely
newlanguages,andthetoolinginfrastructurearoundsothatyoucouldwriteasmartcontract
andcompileitintoascript.Distributedexchanges,assetissuance,andthetoolingtoprovide
thesmartcontractsrelatedtothat.Youcouldusethesamesoftwaretosetupothernetworksfor
techsuchascreditbasedmoney.

Lightningworksacrossmultiplenetworks.YoucouldswapaUSdollarforayen.Ifyouhave
lightningonlitecoinandlightningonbitcoin,Icouldsendalightningpaymentonbitcointhat
releasesalightningpaymentonlitecoin.That'showyouexchange.Youcandoautomatictrade
acrossthepayments.

Ohthat'sinteresting.Okay.

Alsoveryinterestedinfixingfungibility.Findingwaystomakepaymentsmoreprivateandhide
informationthatiscurrentlybeingleakedontheblockchain.Maybeusingcryptotoolsorbetter
coinjoinorthingslikethat.

Okay....coinjoin...

Mostofmyworkhasbeenindoingfintechclients,likesmartcontracts.Figuringouthowtobuild
thesystemstheywanttobuild,likeontopofbitcoin,moremodularandscalable.Likereplacing

ethereumwithbetterbitcointech.OntechIdosecurityreviewandpeerreview.Stronginterest
inhowtoscalethissystem.Blockpropagationincentivesandbetterblockchaindesignsthat
scalebetter,liketreechains.UTXOcommitments.

Hi.Ihavereadalotofcontent.Tostartwith,Ihavereviewedmostifnotallofthepublicbitcoin
scalingproposals.Ihavealsoreadalltheemailstothebitcoindevmailinglist.AndIhaveread
alloftheforumpostsintheR&Dsubforumonbitcointalk.org((grouplaughter)).Wait,there's
more,I'mnotdoneyet((morelaughter)).AndIhavealsoreadandmemorizedagoodchunkof
alltheIRCchatlogs,althoughthisisanincompleteeffortsofar.Ialsoorganizelotsof
informationintheformofbookmarksandlinks.Iamsomewhatofa"librarian",inthataspect.I
wouldliketoaskbeforewemoveon,whoherecontributedtosegwitbyshowofhands?And
whoherecontributedtopeerreviewofsegwitbyshowofhands?Thankyou.

Anythingelse?Okay.Great.

Involvementinelectroniccashprotocolsfrom9395.Inecashsystems,itwascompletely
fungible.However,thoseecashsystemswerecompletelycentralizedandtheywereshutdown.
WhenIsawbitcoinIsawthatitwouldn'tbeshutdownbecauseofitsdecentralization,butits
fungibilityisterrible.Forfungibility,bitcoinusesdecentralization.Confidentialtransactions,
whichmixeswithcoinjoinwell.Encryptedtransactions.Sidechainsasawaytomakemore
complicatedchangestobitcoin,soyoucanhavedifferentchainswithdifferentfeatures.The
previouselectroniccashsystemshadsomethingcalledblinding.Iwouldpaythemmoney,they
wouldgivemeanelectroniccoin,butevenyouinsidethebankwouldnotbeabletotellwhoI
was.Ithaspropertiessimilartozerocashinthatitisveryanonymous.Thepointforfungibilityis,
youknow,sayTheDAOhackerwasusingzerocash.Youcan'tfreezethecoinsortakethe
coins,becauseyoucan'tidentifythem.Youcan'tseethecoinsmove.It'scompletely
unobservable.

Completelytransparent?

Opaque,soyoucan'tseeit.

Ithinkfungibilityisthebigproblemforbitcoin.Wehavetoimprovethetechnicalfungibility.
Schnorrsignaturescanhelp.Wealsohavetoimprovedecentralization.Otherwisewewillhave
afungibilityproblem.AtthemomentIthinkwehavearisk,thathasn'tbeenattackedyet,but
we'reexposed.TherewassomethinginthenewsaboutsomebodyinEurope,someonebought
somethingwithbitcoin,itwasinthenewsandIdon'tknowifitwascorrectornot.Wellthenews
agencyretractedthis.Well,anyway...itdoesn'thavetobetruetobeaproblemanyway.Biggest
blackmarketissupportedbyUSdollars.Nobodyseemstorememberthatmanygunsare
purchasedwithUSdollars.SoanywayIthinkthat,mostoftheutilityandvalueofbitcoinis
becauseit'sfungible,permissionless,decentralized,andifweletthatfailthenpeoplewilllose
confidenceandinterestinbitcoin.

Ifweknewhowtosolvethistechnically,ifwehadaspaceefficientsecureprotocoltodo
fungibility,wewoulddothatrightnow.Therearethingsthatweknowhowtodo,butsome
thingswehaven'tfiguredoutyet.Wecan'talwaysimmediatelysolvetheseproblemsthrough
technicalmeans.

Toaddtothat,itappearsthatanyapproachthatmakesbitcoinscalebetter,makesitmore
privateandfungibility.Soifwedon'tbroadcastasmuchinformation,ithelpsimprovefungibility.
Longtermchangescanimprovethis.Itbasicallymeansthatyoubroadcastlessdata.

Thisiswhywesupportanddeveloplightningnetwork.Thereshouldbemanyadditionallayers
toexpandandprovidemorefunctionality.Lightningnetworkmighthelpfungibility.Weprobably
can'tuselightningforeverything.Ithelps.Lightningcanprovidethecapacityforpayment
channels,likehundredsofthousandsoftransactionspersecondinmultipledirections.It'snot
justforbitcoin,itcanbeconnectedtoallthealtcoinchainsandanycoinsthatexistcanbe
connectedtogetherintolightningnetwork.Wedon'thaveacompletesolution.Butwehave
manythingsthathelpsomewhat.We'retryingtodothings,butthere'snonprotocolthingswe
coulddolikemakingsurethehashrateisindifferentcountries,withmorecompanies,with
differentcontrol,anythingwecandoandmaybeevenpositivenewsstoriesaboutbitcointo
balancethefalsenegativestories.Therearemultipledimensionsandvectorsthroughwhichwe
canworkthroughissues.

Ilearnedbitcoinin2012.Mytrainingwascomputerscience.Ifoundaninterestingproject
regardinghowminingcanmakeadecentralizedsystemforcurrency.SinceIlearnedbitcoin,I
contributealotofideas,especiallyintheconsensusprotocol.SinceIdidnothaveenough
skills,Icontributedideas.IntheHongKongconferenceatScalingBitcoinlastyear,Iwantedto
domoreandlearnedsegwit.Ilearnedcodingandbegantocontribute.RecentlyIamtryingto
proposenewscriptingsystemslikeMASTandnewopcodesthatmightbeuseful.Ithinkthe
consensusprotocolinBitcoinisveryunique.It'snotlikeLinux.Ifyoudon'tlikeadistributionof
Linux,youmakeaforkyourself.WehavehundredsofdistributionsofLinuxandthat'sfine.But
inBitcoin,thebitcoinconsensusprotocolneedsonlyonechainandoneconsensusotherwise
wehaveproblemslikeEthereumispresentlyexperiencing.That'swhyIamparticularly
interestedinthesetopics.

Okay,thankyou.

WearemanufacturingAntminerS9.MostofourS9customerarefromWesterncountries
especiallytheUnitedStates.Inthenextoneortwoweeks,wewillannounceanotherminer.We
recentlyacquiredacompany.Wewillopensourcemostofbtc.comtohelpbitcoinecosystem.
Bitcoinminingpoolisfunctionalonbtc.comandthatwillalsobeopensource.Inthefuture,
manyminersinmanycountriescandeploytheirminingpooleasybasedonthisminingpool.
Themostimportanttodayonbitcoinfungibilityisblocksize.

Doyouguyshaveanyquestions?


IcameintocontactwithBitcoinin2011.Atthattimemygoalwassimple.Itwouldpotentiallybe
agoodassettokeep.Atthattime,therewasalotofnegativepressaboutbitcoininChinese
socialmedia.Sohewasgoingoutthereto..bitcoins..likerepetition,andhedevelopeditinthe
publicspacevigorouslyalongwithsomeotherpeopleduringthatdifficultera.He'stheonewho
translateSatoshi'swhitepaperintoChinese.He'salsotheonewhopresentedBitcointothe
Chinesemediauntilthesituationturnedaroundin2013.

Inthelatepartof2012,Istartedtogetintothebitcoinminingaspectofbitcoin.Iwastryingto
developthetechnologyandalsotryingtofathomtheeconomyaroundthatindustry.Atthattime,
IwastryingtoinvestintheminingonlyandIboughtsharesinaminingcompany.Ialso
investedmyownmoneyplusinvestormoneytopurchaseminingmachines.Unfortunatelyat
thattime,thevendorcouldn'tdeliver.Wesufferedagreatlossfromthatinvestment.That
experiencecomparesustogettingintotheminingindustrymyself.Ifoundmypartnersandwe
startedtoinvestandstarttodevelopminingmachinesbyourselvesbecauseofthatbad
experiencewehad.

Backinthattime,theminingcommunityhascometotheviewpointthatifIcancontrolallthe
mininghardwareinmyownhand,thenIcanbenefitmostfromthiscontrol.Butthisisrunning
againsttheprincipleofBitcoinnetwork.Iactuallyvehementlyagainstthatphilosophy.Wealso
observethatovertheyearsthoseminingcompaniesthatpracticedthat,haveinevitablyfailed
andflounderedbecauseoftheirbadchoicesandpoorjudgement.

Inthefuture,wewillcontinuetomanufacturetheminingmachines.Wewillonlykeepasmall
percentageofthemachinesforourselves.Inlatersessions,Iwouldliketosharethatdatawith
youtoverifythat.

Formyself,Iwouldreallywouldliketoseethe..ofthebitcoinprotocolbecauseIhavenow
investedsomuchfinanciallyandpersonallyintodevelopingthisprotocolsince2011.Istayup
until1amor2aminthemorningtodebateortotalkwithpeopleonsocialmedia.Iworklate
nightstomakesureeverythinggoessmoothly.JusttorealizeSatoshi'svisionthatBitcoinisa
decentralizedsystemthatcannotbecontrolledbyasingleorganizationorasingleentityor
anyonewhowantstotakecontrolofthatsystem.Itshouldbeaglobalreservecurrencyforthe
wholecommunitytotakeadvantageof.

Okay,thankyou.Forthelatecomers,couldyouintroduceyourselvesandalsotalkaboutwhat
yourcurrentinterestsareandwhatyou'reworkingonlately.

Ithinkeveryoneknowsme.IhavebeenaroundinBitcoinforyears.Sincemid2011.Soatleast
fiveyears.Hewasinhighschoolbackthen.Relaynetwork.Educationalefforts.

Oh,hi.Idoworkonlightningnetwork.Myintentistohelpmakebitcoingreatagain.Fedora.Itis
myhopethatwecanbuildasimilarlystrongcommunityforbitcoin.Alsocommunityeffortson

sidechains.He'sverymuchoneofourcommunitybuildingpeopleatBlockstream.

IwasworkingonBitcoinin2014.IhadnounderstandingofthewhitepaperwhenIfirstreadit.I
tooksomecomputerscienceclassesandthenrealizeditwasprettycool.Igraduatedfrom
schoolinJune.Iamworkingonlightningnetwork.Ialsodosomeworkonbtcd.Iamalso
workingonobliviousRAM.

Okayfoodisherelet'sgetfoodthenwecantalkmore.

#Lunch

food

Whatdoyoueachwant?Notintermsoftechnology,butintermsofroadmapforwhatyouwant
toseein5to10years.Whatdopeoplewanttosee?What'sontheirwishlist?Goldranfor
6,000yearsorsomething,andmaybeforbitcoinitwillmakesenseinafewcenturies.Let's
worryaboutthingsthatarewithinourreachinourownlifetimesatleast,moreachievablegoals
shouldbepicked.Dotheywanttoaimformarketvolatility?Liteclients?

Whethertobringuplegalrisk.Hasariskofthisbeingconsideredaprimaryconcern.Ifitwas
theonlyconcernwehad,wewouldfindwaystoroutearoundit.Therearetechnicalreasons
thatwecoulddiscussaswell,ofcourse.

##ObliviousRAM

LikeaXORlinkedlist?Ialsohaveprojectsinencryptionlikesshstuff.Wehaveapaperweare
submittinginlikeafewweeks.Computationalprivateinformationwork.

#Aboutmining

Backfromlunch.

SowewouldliketotalkabouttheminingsituationinChina.Okay.Soit'scomingup,isittoo
dark?Canyouguysseeintheback?Ohweshouldturnoffthelights.Okaywhohascontrol
overthevapormachine?


Hieveryone.Iwouldliketointroduceabouttheminers.BeforeIcametothismeeting,we
discussedsomeconcernsfromtheminers.Ishouldliketosharesomedata.Firstabout
Antpool.Youcanseethatwehaveafullnodethatcangenerateablock,theyaredistributed
acrosstheland,indifferentlocationsaroundtheworld.Antpoolisasinglepool,butthenodes
aredistributedaroundtheworld.Sowehavesomecontroloverthepropagation.Wedonot
necessarilyhavetheadvantageoverasmallpool.Wecannotsynchronizetoworktogether
becausethelightningstilltravelsstillspendstime,weswitchthejobwesendthejobstothe
differentminersaroundtheworldandthatstilltakestime.

Weoperategloballyanddonotnecessarilyhavetheadvantageoverasmallpool.Antpool's
hashrateisabout14%.Theother86%isbyotherguysfromourcustomersorothermining
machines.Bitmain2015customers,byperson.Wecanseethatfromtheperspectiveof
individualswecanseethat76%ofcustomerscomefromoutsideofChina.UnitedStatestakes
halfofit.AndCanadatakesanotherpartofit.Germanyhadthesecondlargestareaofsales.
Rightnowit'sCanadaafterUS.24%ofthecustomersarefromChina.Thisisaccountedby
individualperson.Anotherstatisticisbyunitsofmachine.WecanseethatChinatakesthe
majorityofit,that'sabout74.8%oftheminingmachinesgoestoChina,andabout25%goesto
foreigncustomers.Ifwecombinethesetwostatistictogether,theChinacustomersaremore
likelytobuildlargerfarms.

Question,isthisbynationality,orisitbyshippingdestination?It'sbynationalitybyperson
buying.ArethereAmericansbuyinghardwareandshippingittoChina?No,it'sbyshipping
address.

Chineseminersaremorelikelytobuyonaveragemorelargecustomers.Fromourexperience,
itshowsthatitistypicalthatAmericancustomersbuyonlyoneortwounitsofmachinethatthey
putintotheirownhomeorbasement.LotsofourChinesecustomersarelargefarmslike1or2
megawatts.Thesearekindofsmallscale.Thelargecustomersare10or20megawatt.

CoststructureforminingfarmsinUSandChina.Whyisthisthewayitis?Wecanseethatthe
capitalexpenditurepermegawattinChinais50,000andinAmericaitis300,000.Powercost
lowestavailable,$/kwhinChinais0.04andinAmericaitis0.02.Timetobuild,inmonths,in
Chinais1,andinAmericaitis3to6months.

Americahasmuchlowerpowercostavailablenearhydropowerstations.Americawillrequire
moretimeandmoreCPEXtohaveaminingfarm.Thesearemostlyinfrastructurethings.
$50k/megawattinChina.It'slike$300k/megawattinAmerica.Thelaborcostismuchhigherin
America.Allofthewiringneedstobebylicensedindividuals.Theyneedtohavelicenses.Ifyou
decidetobuildaminingfarm,inChinayoucoulddothatinonemonth.InAmerica,abunchof
thattimeisspenttalkingwithfirefighters,electriccompany,regulators,youneedtoshowthem
theplaces,thedesigns,makesuretheyareokaywiththedesigns,theyneedtocheck
everything,andtheyneedtochangethischangethatandthat'sanothersafetylaw.It'savery

slowprocess.InChina,it'sveryfast.Youcanbuildthingsveryquickly.Regulationisveryloose.
Youhaveverylittletodealwith.

Fromacapitalperspectiveandtimeperspective,miningfarmsinAmericaareveryexpensiveto
build.TheamountoftimeinAmericainfluencesthedecisionofcourse.Andthepowercostin
ChinaisnotasgoodasAmericabecauseyouhavemorehydropowerstations.Youhave2
centsor1.5centorsomething.InCanadatoo,it'scheaperpower.Thelowpriceisnotavailable
inChina.It'sabout$0.04/megawattaccordingtoourexperience.InChina,there'saoligopolyof
..fromalegalperspective,ifyouareanyofthepowercompanyneedtosellelectricitythrough
theGreekcompanyandtheychargealotofit.Ifyouwanttomakedealwithapowercompany
directly,it'sagainsttherules.Youneedtospendresourcesandenergyandrelationshipsand
thesethingsontryingtogetthetotravelwiththemsobasicallyinChinathelowestcostof
powerisnotasgoodasinAmerica.Tosummarize,inAmerica,ifyoudoashorttermbusiness
whereyouwanttogetyourinvestmentbackveryfast,it'snotasgoodasChina.

Difficultyisrisingfast.WeknowthereasonwhyChinaminersaremorelikelytolaunchmany
farms.Icansummarizethisasbecauseinthepastfewyears,theriskinvolvedinamining
investmentarehigh.Minersdonotlikethedifficultygoingveryhighveryfast.Wecanseeinthe
pastfewyears,thisisagoodtimeinJanuary2015wheretheminingdifficultywasnotmoving.
TherewasabigshotaroundJanuary2016.Minersalsodonotlikethepriceofbitcoingoing
down.WecanseesincetheASICscame,...January2013ASICsweredeliveredaroundthem.
Friedcatstarteddoingtheirownminingfarm.Sowecanstartthatgrapharoundthat.January
2014wasabadtimeaswellforthemarketpriceformining.Insidetheminerscommunity,..
losingalotofmoney..becauseofthecrashofthebitcoinprices...andlowestcorner,..and
highestis$1000U.S.dollar.

What'sthereasonbehindthis?Themarketisnotcontrolledbyminers.Thetechnologyis
improvingveryfast.130/110nmwasreadyin2002.65/55nmwasreadysince2006.16/14nm
onlyreadyin2015.Bitcoinexperiencedtechnologyimprovementjourneyof13year
semiconductortechnologyinabout3years.

name,process(nm),signoffdate,hashrateinGH/sec,efficiencyinJ/GH
BM1380,55nm,Sep2013,2.8@1.25V,1.643@1.25V
BM1382,28nm,April2014,14@0.70V,0.494@0.70V
BM1384,28nm,Oct2014,18@0.75V,0.386@0.75V
BM1385,28nm,June2015,30@0.66V,0.216@0.66V
BM1387,16nm,Dec2015,80@0.4V,0.08@0.4V

Soabout20xtechnologyimprovement.Youneedawar.Thesmallertheprocessnode,the
harderitistoimprove.Weimprovedthepowerefficiencyofthesemiconductor.Youhavea
lowercapexandOPEXwhenjumpingtothelowerresolution.Yeswe'rehittingawall.Youcan
havealowerpowercost,butthecosttofabricatethewaferincreased.Maybeyouhaveto
increasethecosttomakeasingletransistortoimproveyourpowerefficiency.Themining

technologyimprovementhavesomehowjustuhwellslowthatpace.It'skindofgoodnews
actuallytominingriginvestorsbecauseoldergenerationminershatethenewgeneration.So
thenewgenerationwillnowcomeataslowpacecomparedtobefore.

In2011,...minerwillhavelessriskthanbefore.Theimprovementofminingtechnologywill
havetowaittheimprovementofsemiconductortechnology.Moore'slawishittingthewall.
bitcoinpriceisexpectedtobemorestable.AsstableastheU.S.dollaragainsttheEuro.Itwill
havesomeupanddown,butgenerallyitisstable.Peoplearemorelikelytoacceptitasa
reservecurrencyortoputitinsidetheirsavingsinsidethebitcoinnetwork.Sothiswillbegood
newsforbitcoin.

Ithinkthere'sapotentialthattheminingwillshifttoWesternbecauseregulation,thelegal
systemandthepowercost,thiskindoflongtermifweconsiderthingsfromanother
perspective,inAmericathere'slotsofadvantageoverChina.EveninEurope,wecanfindlots
ofcheaperandlotsofstableecosystem.Fromanotherperspective,miningwillhaveanedgein
theWesternworld.Peoplearewaitingtoinvestinmining.Bitcoinhashratetendstobemore
decentralizedormorewidespreadwhenthere'samoreevenstate.Itdependsonhowthe
economicandhowthemarketforBitcoinminingevolvesinthenextfewyears.

WeneedmorepeopletoputtheirsavingsintheBitcoinnetwork.Thankyou.

Q:YoumentionedhowmuchofAntpool'shashrateisbitmain?Howmuchisthehashnest
service?Doyouknow?

Hashnestdoesnothaveaphysicalhashrate.Theyareinthe14%.It'sactuallyseparated,the
hashrate.

Q:Yousaidsomethinglike80%ofthehardwareissold,andonly12%iskeptbyBitmain?Isit
thatshippedhardware,ordoesBitmainownitandoperatedbysomeoneelse?

Ourownhosting,ourownminingoperationwithourcustomersandsoon.Wediscouragethem
fromputtingtheirminingrigsinsideourminingfarms.

Q:Youhadapictureofwhereyourhashrateisonwhichofyournodes.Iwantedtoaskifyou
couldspeaktotheinfrastructurearoundthat.IsthatallownedandoperatedbyyouinChina?Is
itoperatedbyotherindividualswhoaren'tnecessarilyabletocensortransactions?

Mostofthehashrateisfromotherindividuals.

Q:NoImeanthepooloperation.AreyouoperatingthepoolintheUS?Theantpoolservers?

TheyareunderBitmain'scontrol.WerentedserversfromAmazon.Antpoolserverswillconnect
totheUSantpoolserver.EuropeancustomersconnecttotheEuropeanAntpoolserver.


Q:WhatabouthavingotherpeopleruntheAntpoolservers?

Maybe.

Q:Youwouldcollecttherevenue,butyouwouldhaveseparatepeopleinseparateregionshave
thekeystotheserverssothatoneagencywouldn'tbeabletotarget.

FranklyIhaveneverthoughtaboutthis.Fromthebeginningofthebusiness,..nextgeneration
oftheminingpoolandopensourcingitanditwillbeeasyforourcustomerstosetuptheirown
miningpools.Theydon'thavetousathirdpartypoollikeAntpool.Theywillbeabletobuild
theirownminingpool.

Fromthedevelopmentside,wewanttomaketoolstomakethatmuchmoreeasy.Wehavehad
somedifficultybecauseconsumeradoptionofmininghardwarehasgonedown.Theredoesnot
seemtobeasmuchinterestinpeopledeployingtheirownminingequipment.It'shardto
developsoftwarewithoutinteractionwithusers.Weneedtheuserssothatwecanbuildthe
softwaretomakeiteasiertohaveusersinthefirstplace.Yeah,itsoundsgreat,ifthere's
anythingthatwecandotohelp,wewouldbehappytohelpwiththateffort.

IwanttoaddapointherethatweneedBitcoincommunityIthinkweneedtohaveawelcome
thatiskindofminingfarmthing.Forexample,inChinaactually,3khalfmegawatteach.About
1020%arethatscale.Therewillbethousandsofthese.Weneedsomeconferencestoinvite
thepowercompanies,miners,localgovernance,andtrytopromotetheminingfarmbuilding
services.Justbuildingthemininghouses,it'sarealactualcompany.Ifwecandothisin
America,thenifweweretohavealongtermbusinessplan,youcouldhaveanadvantageto
China.Miningpoolsareacentralizingfactor,butaslongaswestarttoopensourceour
infrastructure,Ithinkitwillbecomeeasierforotherstobuildaminingpool.

Theexistingminingsoftware,Igetlotsofcomplaintsfromsomeotheropensourceminingpool,
itsucks.Yeah,agreed.Itdoes.It'sverydifficultrightnowtosetuptheexistingminingpool
software.Onlyasmallnumberofexpertscanfigureitout.Itneedstoimprove.Yeah.There's
alsosometechthatweknowhowtobuildbuthaven'tbuiltyet,whichwouldallowyoutopool
yourincomewithoutpoolingyourtransactionselection.P2poolisanexampleofthisbutnota
goodexample.It'snotagoodpool.Neverwas.Thereistechthatcouldbedevelopedhere
whereuserscanpooltheirincomebutkeeptransactionselectiondecentralized.MultiPPS?The
miningpoolshavetojointogethertosharetheirincome.Italsoincreasestheperformanceof
thenetworkbecause,rightnowallthepoolsarebucklingagainsttheotherones,it'screatinga
lotoforphans.BecausetheyhavelikeBitcoinprotocolisnotsoefficientfromtheblock
propagation...inthemiddleof2014,tothemiddleof2015,wearelosingapproximatelyover
10%ofminingpowerfornothingbecauseofthecreationoforphan.Theywerenotpropagating
becauseofinternalsoftwareperformanceissues.Wecouldalsocreateahowtoforinstalling
pools.Whydousersnotdoit?Thereisnoreasontoinstallapoolifyouonlyhaveacouple

gigahashes.Youshouldhaveatleastlike2030petahashestobereallyefficient.Ifyou
combinealotofusers,andifitdoesn'thitthe,thenitnegativelyimpactsbitcoinbecausemany
usersarejustfollowingthissimple"Howtoinstallapool"andtheymightdothatforafew
terahashes,therewillbelessprofitandveryhighriskandtheycannotprovidethesources.At
themomentthereareonlyacoupleofpeoplethatcanconfiguretheminingpool.It'sabare
qualityforenduser.

Itcreatesaliabilitythoughforthesystem.Exactly.Yeah.Ithinkwecanfixthisgoingforward.
Combiningthepools,Ithinkit'sthenextlogicalstep.Insteadofbattlingoneagainsttheother
one,itshouldbesomenextstepinthesoftwaredevelopment.Thentheoldpoolswillwork
togetherwithoutanypointoffailureandwithoutweaknessfromattacks,andthepaypershare
andsoon,willprovideyoujustpayout.Itwillbelogical.Ithinkitwillmaybenot..maybenotthis
year,butitshoulddefinitelybecreatedideallybeforethenextrewardsplit,andthenthefeewill
bemorereasonablyhigh.

AmIunderstandingyoucorrectlythatit'spossibleforpoolstonotbeconcernedaboutorphan
lossinthefuture?It'saquestionabouttheefficiency.ASICdevelopmentgrowth,it'saquestion
aboutimprovingthebitcoinnetwork.ImagineyouhaveaVisadatacenterwith100k
transactions/sec.Ifyoucanoptimizeyourdatacenterandreducetheelectricityconsumption,it
meansthetransactionsarecheaperforendcustomer.ReplacementofCPUpowerforGPU
power,it'sanextlogicalstep.It'sdecreasingpowerconsumptionandit'salsoincreasingthe
priceofyourtransaction,andASICincreasingthepricemore,andincreasingASICefficiency
decreasesthepricepertransaction.Makingitasmuchcheaperaspossible.Buttheminer
poweralsocreatesprotectionbarrierforasset,forbitcoinorforanycoinwhatyouareusing
insidetheblockchain.Ifhashrateishigher,it'sveryhardtoattackthecoinorassetinsidethe
blockchain.Additionally,youcanjustnotetakeinlinethecostofthebitcoin,youcanalsolower
thebitcoinwithanadditionalcost,likewithasmartcontract,theshareinsidethebitcoin,soit's
thepriceofabitcoinplusthesharesofthecompany.It'smorehighcosttheasset.Hashrate
shouldgoup.We'redefinitelyreachingtechnologicallimitsfornow.

Sellingthecontainers,sellingthewarmersforhomes,likewarmingforwaterorsomething.In
Ukraine,ourpartners,wehavealreadydesignedaminerthatworkslikeaheaterforahouse.
It'sjustwarmingthewater.It'sconsumingthesameamountofelectricityandcreateswarm
water.Thequestionisonly,ifyouareusingaverysmallcheapandyou'redistributingthem,
theybecomeinefficient.There'snopossibilitytoinstallrightnowjustonegigahashinadiesel
router.Theefficiencyoftheonemillionchips,notinonesingleminer,butdistributedacrossthe
world,willbelessefficientbecauseofthedelayincommunication.

Q:Afterthehalving,thedifficultywentdownsincethenbyalittlebit.Doyouhaveanyinsight
intowhetheradisproportionateamountareshuttingitoffgeographically?

75%oftheminingrigswillbeshuttingdown.Or80%oftheminingrigoflastgenerationat28
nm.It'sstillprofitabletoruniteveninsomehighpowercostareas.RecentlyIthinkthe

shutdownisrelatedtospecificissuesandpowercompanies.Miningrigswerehavingtrouble
withtheirpowercompanies.Thisdropisunrelatedtothehalving.

Iwassurprisedbythedeclineinhashrate.Soitsoundslikeit'sunrelated,alocalsupplyissue.
InChina,hydropowerisverycheaprightnowbecauseit'ssummer.Inoctober,whenwinteris
coming,someminingfarmshavetobeclosed.Theminingfarmswillbemovedduringthose
periods.Somepeoplearestealingelectricity.Briberycost.

Q:Youweretalkingaboutinstallationsinhomes.Highnmwerecheaptoinstallandmore
efficientasaheatingelement.Perhapsyouwon'tgethighhashratefromthatbecausetheyare
lessefficientasminers?

It'sadifferenteconomicalreasontoinstallthem.Insteadofbuyingjustaheater,whichwillcost
youalmostthesamemoney,butdoesn'tprovideanyreturn,theminingagreementwillprovide
youeconomicreturn.Butit'snotlogicalandnotefficient.IfyouinstallminersintoTVsetsor
something.....yeaheveryoneinthisroomisstillscratchingtheirheadsaboutthat.Right.Butfor
warming,warmair,warmwater,thentheminerisalmostthesameefficiencyintermsof
condition.Whyisitnotexactly?The..ofthedevicewillbehigher.Ifregularwarmerforwater,
costlike$1,thentheminerwillbe$2.50andhigherprice.Butrightnowthegrowupofthe
difficultyissofastthatifyoubuyit,youwillnotbeabletogetareturntocovertheprice,
becauseofthegrowthindifficulty.Whenitreachesamaximumpointlike10nmor9nmchips,
thenitwillbemorelinearandthenthehomeuserscanbuyitandtheycanbesurethatin2or3
monthstheywillgettheirinvestmentpaidback,plussomebenefitsandsomeinvestmentfrom
bitcoin.Thebitcoinpriceislowerthanitshouldberightnow,itwillgrowup,itshould
approximatelyhappenwhenmixingthemaximalpointofthetechnology,sothenpriceshould
goupandthenoverak,andthiscreateaninterestinallthepublictoinvestmoreinthebitcoin.

Assoonasthedevelopmentofbitcoinminingchipcatchesupwithmainstreamgeneralpurpose
CPU,wewillseeaslowdowningrowthandthusthechiplifetimewillgrowandthiswillmakeit
viableforconsumerstohavethem.Iagreewiththis.Itmakestheinvestmentlessrisky.YesI
agree.However,ontheotherside,Ithinkthatifthegrowthoftechnologyitselfslowsdown,I
expecttheprofitmarginofminingtogodownaswellsothatyoucanplanaheadanddobetter
analysisandprobablythecompetitionwouldbehighersotheprofitmarginsmightgodown.
Thiswillalsodependonbitcoinexchangerate.Forcompetitiveminingsure,butforcompliance
miningperhapsitwouldbedifferent.Costofsupplywouldgetclosetothecostofproduction,
moreefficient.Theadoptionofthebitcoinisgrowingovertime.Thepriceofthebitcoinwillbe
alsogrowingup.Asresult,thisisincreasingtheprofitandmakingthecompensation.Ithinkit's
adangerousassumptionthatthemarketpricewillgoupordoanythinginparticular.

Yousortofassumethatmininghardwareendsupatthesamestateoftheartasgeneral
purposeCPU.Idon'tknowwhetherthatisthecase.Inparticular,ifyoucouldbuildamining
chipthatgivesacompletelywrongresultofthetimebutis2xasefficient,thatwouldbe
awesometohaveforminingbutit'sunacceptableforgeneralpurposeforCPU.Ithinkthatonce

thetechcatchesup,theymightfindthatforminingASICs,theywillfindthatadifferentdesignis
interestingforotherpurpose.Canwestopheresothatwedon'tlosetheaudience.

WhenwethinkintermsofPoWsecurity,ifyouwanttoattackthenetwork,youcandomany
typesofattacks.Therearelessexpensiveattackstoworryabout.Someofthemwillbefaster
thanASICfabrication.Inthefutureifwehavealotoflatenthashrateturnedoff,andifit's
vulnerable,thenwehaveasituationwheresomeonecanturnonthehashrateasahashrate
attack.Thisisparticularlyconcerningwhenyouhavealotoflatenthashrate.

Oneotherthingthatwecantalkaboutlaterisblockwithholding.Itcanbefixedwithasoftfork,
actually.

#FutureoutlookofBitcoin

OneofthethingsthatIhopetodohereistohearthisfromotherpeopleaswell.Ithinkwe
sharecommonvisionaboutwhatthefutureisforthebitcoinsystemandcurrency.Likeallofus,
Iwanttoseetheusagegrowandseeitpenetrateeverycornerandaspectoftheworld.Itwill
taketimeforthistohappen.Ifeveryonewastoawaketomorrowandknowthatbitcoinwillbe
theworldreservecurrency,therewillprobablybewar.Therewillbefightsoverminingfarms,
even.ItisgoodforallofusintheroomthatBitcoingrowsatasteadypaceandthattheworld
hasachancetoadapttothissystemandforownershipofbitcointobewelldispersedandvery
widespreadsothateveryonecanparticipateinasystemthatisseenandreceivedandisfairto
everyoneintheworld.Thetechnologythatispossibleintheprotocolsonthenetwork,we're
lookingatthingstodaythataremuchmorepowerfulthanwehavealreadydeployed.Weknow
thatmanythingsarepossibleinthefuturethatendusers,ifyouthinkaboutthefurtherout
technology,likezeroknowledgeproofsforsynchronizingtheblockchain.Weknowthereare
techimprovementsthatarepossible,butitwilltaketimetogettothem.Duringthattime,we
needtoadvancethesystem,getmoreadoption,diveintomoreusecases,andkeeptrackof
thelongtermadvantagesofbitcointhatmakeitvaluabletoeveryone,thatispermissionless,
thatitisopen,worldwide,andtokeepthisattheforefrontofthesystem.Togethere,wemight
havetocooperateandworktogetherharmoniouslyratherthanindirecompetition.Thereare
manypeopleoutsideinthewiderworldthatdon'tusecryptocurrencythat'sthecompetition.
Weshouldbefocusingourenergies.Weshouldbecollaboratingtomakebitcoinsuccessful
there.

It'spossibleforinterestingsystemstobecomepopular,butlessimportantovertime.Therewas
anexample.Everyoneheardaboutpaypal.Itstartedasabearerelectroniccashsystemon
palmpilot,aPDAbeforesmartphones.Peoplewhoweredoingitthoughtthatelectronicbearer
cashwasveryinteresting.Paypalbecamecentralizedandhadthesameproblemsasbanks.It
becamebigandcontrolledbycorporateinterests.Itbecamethethingitwastryingtodisplace.

Onepotentialoutcomeforbitcoinisforbitcoinexchangestobecomebanksorboughtbybanks
orincorporatedintobanks.Iamnotaccusingofanyone.It'sjusthowhumanevolutionhappens
inprevioussystems.Theycouldbecomestockmarketlisted,boughtbybanks,andthe
permissionlesspropertiesmightbeeroded.Forsomepeople,thatwouldbeuninteresting.But
perhapssomeonewouldtrytoworkonanalternativebecauseBitcoinwouldhavedegradedin
quality,justlikepaypalisbeingreplacedinafewways.

Sowejusthavetoavoidthatfailure,andmaybebitcoinin5yearscouldhave,Idon'tknow,a
nicepositiveoutcomewouldbethesameamountofdistributionandvalueasgoldor
something.

Letssay10years.Ok,maybe.Youneedaspirations.

Iwouldalsopointoutthatinthatkindofevolutiontosomethingmorecentralized,itwouldbe
easyforBitcointochangeintosomethingwhereminingisnotneeded.Inethereum,theyintend
toswitchtosomethingwherePoWisnolongergoingtoberequired.Inacentralizedsystem,
PoSisgoingtowork.Ifyouhaveacentralauthoritythatcandecidebetweendifferentsystems,
itwillprobablylooklikeitworks.IfEthereumswitchedtothen,thenwhywouldyouneedallthe
environmentallywastefulwork?Whynotusethesystemthatethereumisusing?Itwouldbe
muchlessinterestingevenifyoudidswitch.Inthatoutcome,theminerswouldn'texist.It
probablyisn'tgoingtohappeninthenextfewyears.Iwouldmuchratherhaveasystemthatis
interestingandsecure.

It'seasytomakecentralizedsystems.Thetrendisprobablygoingtogotowardsthatifpeople
don'tcare.Themorecentralizedthesystem,thebetteritwillseemtowork.There'salsotherisk
ofboilingthefrog.Ithinkwehavebeenboiledalready.

Centralizedsystemsarealwaysgoingtoexist.Paypalalreadyexists.Weshouldrecognizethat
ifwebuildasystemthatisgettingclosertothosealternatives,withoutprovidingmajor
differentiation,thenwecouldlosethecompetitionbecausewewouldn'tbeprovidingsomething
unique.Whereasifwemakesurethatwecanmaintainourcorevalues,thenwecancontinue
preciselybecausewecontinuetoprovidesomethingunique.

AwildBobmonhasappearedintheroom.It'sveryimportanttocapturethispokemon.Wecan't
mentionthename,ofcourse.((Itwasapikachu,ifwecanrelaxtheCHFrules.))

Thereisatranscriptprojectedonthescreen.Thankyou.You'reamazing.Reallyjustthe
greatestpersonever.

Wehavealistoftopicsonthisside.Whowouldliketokickoffthistopic?

Wedonthavetodiscussthisbutweallgotodifferentmeetings,andperhapsfromScaling
Bitcoinorelsewheretheremightbesomeinformationthatwouldbegoodtoshare.

#LessonsfromtheEthereumhardfork

TherearetalksfromScalingBitcointhatwewilladdaslinkstothetranscriptsoremailthat
around.Ifthereisnothingtotalkaboutregardingprioreventsandconferences,thenwecantalk
aboutlessonswecouldgatherfromtheEthereumhardfork.Whowouldliketostartonthat?
Wheretostart?It'sabroadtopic.Whowassurprisedbythissituation?SurprisedbyTheDAO
situation?Surprisedbythehardfork?Thefactthatithadabug?Thatpeoplesuggesteda
hardforkforit?Thatthehardforkwentthrough?Iwassurprisedthattheydidnothavean
improvementproposalforit.Theyjustdidahardforkwithoutwritingitup.Iwouldsuggestthat
theDAOmightnotbethattopical.

Therearelessonstherebecausewearealsotalkingaboutdifferenttypesofforks.Thereare
forks,replays,thingslikethat,TheDAOmightnotbeasrelevant.Thereisthepossibilityorthe
factthattheyareexploringnewpossiblescriptinglanguagesforbitcoin.Therehavebeen
argumentsthatiftheDAOcodehadbeenmoreauditableormoreprovable,thespecific
recursiveconstructionintheethereumVMwasreviewedandawarningwasgivenregarding
sandboxescapesandcodethatishardtoreasonabout.IfIcriticizeeverything,thenIwillbe
rightabouteverythingthatfails...[Specificconversationaboutthetechfailureintheethereum
scriptsystem]Cyclingisrisky,itwasjustignored.Peoplewarnedspecificallyaboutthis.

Iwillprovideashortsummaryaboutthis.Theyarecreatingthetechnologyinthewaythatthey
wouldlikeittoexistintothefuture.

Ifeachmorningyouwakeupandtherulesarechanged,thenyouarechangingthegame.They
starttousethetechnologyandthereareacoupleofpointsinthetimelines.

First,it'sasmartcontractbyitself.WithSolidity,itisdefinitelynotthechoice.Itshouldbe
improved.Ifit'schanginganythinginSolidity,it'schangingalltherulesinethereumand
changingalltherulesinsidethesmartcontractsinethereum.Ifyou'redesigningthissmart
contracttoday,itdoesn'tmeanthattomorrowitwillbeabletowork.Ifyouchangesomethingin
Solidityitmightstopworkingandthereisnotcontinuoussupportofthesamesystem.

Asecondpointthatshouldbemarkedisthatit'schangingproofofworktoproofofstake.So
firstofalltheissueaboutPoWisthatit'screatedlikeatemporaryandit'sbydesigncreatedby
workingonlimitedamountoftime.TheissuewhichPoWthemoretransactionyouget,themore
complexthehashesyouconstruct,morememoryforGPUcards,atthesamemomenttherewill
notbeenoughmemoryfortheGPUcardtogeneratePoW.Once,wehavealreadyreachedthat
limit.Sothehashrategenerationrequiringfor23GBofmemory,thenatonemomentallof
thoseGPUcardsstopworkingandstopgeneratingPoW.Itwasasoftwarelimitation.

Youcanupdateandcontinueproofofwork.

Changingfromproofofworktoproofofstakechangestheeconomicsofthesystem,allthe
ruleschangeanditwillimpacteverything.Thenextpoint,theconstructionofethereum,it'sbuilt
forrollingouttogettingthecurrentpointofablockchainshouldpossessallthesmartcontracts.
Andsmartcontractsusingsolidity,it'sconsumingalotofCPUpower.Ifyougetalotofsmart
contracts,iftheblockchainwouldbebigger,youwouldnotbeabletodownloadtheblockchain
andsynchronizenewnodes.ItrequiresalotofCPUpower.Andduringthetime,ifsmart
contractswouldbebigger,thanaregularnodewouldnotbeabletoprocessallthesmart
contracts.Atthispointyoushouldsomehowalsoperformhardfork,andsplitthenetwork.Each
pointispracticallycreatingthepandora'sbox.Ifitdoesn'tsolveit,it'sbasicallythedeathof
ethereum.Ifyousolvethem,meaningthehardfork,it'smeaningchangeofrulesofthewhole
system,andtheuserwillbe....

Alltheusersalreadydecidetouseethereum,theywillbeimpactedandlosetrustatthispoint.
Asyougoforwardintimethemoreusersyouwilllose.Ethereumistooyoungtobravethis,..
Theyarenotthinkingabouttheusersbecausetheyaretestingthenetworkastheygoand
modifyingtherules.

Andalsorollingbackthetransactionsifit'smoneyisquiterisky.Someoneshoulddecide.Isit
fraudtransactionornot?It'salsochangingalotofrulesandalsoimpactingtheusersand
creatingadissatisfactionfortheusers.Someuserswillnotbesatisfied.

IwassurprisedabouttheEthereumprocessthattherewasntadocument.Theyhavetheirown
BIPs,andtheydidntuseit.

Theyweretryingtofixtheproblemasfastaspossible.

Yes,buttheystillhadtimetogo.Itwasntlastminute.Theyhadsometime.

Aseparateissuewiththisisthattheirresponsetimetotheissueseemedslowtome.Idon't
quiteunderstandwhy.WhentherewerenetworkincidentsintheBitcoinnetworkinthepast,I
thinkthattheresponsetimeoftheBitcoincommunitywasmuchfaster.Isawbasicallyno
responsefromtheEthereumtechnicalcommunityotherthantellingexchangestostoptrading.
Fordaysafter,fundswerebeingdrainedoutofTheDAOandtheyhadnotgivenpatchestothe
minerstoblockthetransactions.Whydidn'ttheyreorginthefirsthour?Thereweresome
simplethingsthattheycouldhavedone.Thereweresomethingsthattheycouldhavedone
well.Ithinktheytookwrongaction.Buttheydidtakeaction.Creditwherecreditisdue.Their
hardforkwasbilateral,meaningthatthenewhardforkchainwouldrejectblockscreatedby
EthereumClassic,andEthereumClassicwouldofcourserejectblocksfromthenewchain.The
priorhardforkproposalsforbitcoinlike109,101,102,noneofthosewerebilateralhardforks.
WhatthismeansisthatifEthereumClassicgetsmoretotalworkthanEthereum,whichtothe
marketlookslikeitcouldpossiblyhappen,itwillnotreorg.YouwillnothaveEthereumClassic

getmoreworkandthentheethereumotherchaingetserased.Thisisbecauseofthebilateral
fork.IftheydidaforkliketheBIP101fork,andyouhadasituationwheretheclassicchaingot
moreworkthantheotherchain,thenitwouldhaveerasedthechainhistoryfromtheotherone.
Presumablytheywouldhavemadeaforktoerasethehistoryandbringitback.Itwasprobably
easierforthemtodoitthisway,buttheydiditwell.ThereplaysituationIthinkisquite
interestingandhasaparallelinBitcoin.Ayearandahalfago,therewasadiscussioninthe
#bitcoindevchatchannelwhenGavinandHearnweretalkingabouttheirforkproposals.Some
peoplebegantodiscusshowtodoreplaypreventionbetweenforksofbitcoin.ThismadeGavin
madbecauseherejectedtheideathatanotherchainwouldexistatallafterthefork.Wehadan
extensivediscussionaboutreplay.IthinkwedidthatbetterthanEthereumbecausebitcoinhas
lessreplayrisk,inherently.Inbitcoin,wewouldnothaveasmanyreplayproblemsifwehada
forklikethis.Inadditiontothis,thiswassomethingwewerethinkingaboutwhenwestartedto
thinkabouthardforksinBitcoin.

Whyisthat?

TheUTXOmodelwouldbewhywewouldbebetteroff.Ethereumhasaccounts,instead.Sothe
antireplaycounterismoreinherent.Ifyoumakeatransactionyoucanspendthemequallyif
theywereinthesameaccounts.Ifbitcoinforkedlikeethereumdid,therewouldbesomereplay.
Youcouldchangethingsinthetransactionformatinthehardfork,andothertrickstoreducethe
chanceofreplay.Ethereumdevelopersknewaboutreplay.Theyinfactapparentlyhada
conversationwithcoinbaseaboutreplaybeforethehardforkandtheirpositionwasthatthere
wouldnotbetwosurvivingchainssodon'tworryaboutreplay.SoIthinkthefailuremodewasa
lackofsufficientparanoia,beingoverlyconfident,manythingsIthinkwedoinBitcoinwe
overengineeralittlebitbutthisoverengineeringisforagoodthingbecausewecan'tpredictall
thefailuremodes.

Wecannotfixthingsintwoseconds.Ittakesussometime.

Butforexample,replayisstillnotfixedinEthereumworldeventhoughitiscausingmany
problems.Iamsureitwillgetfixedinsomenumbersofweeksormonths.Replaycouldevenbe
anattackagainstanotherchain,sosomeusersmightconsideritagoodthing.It'sonlyagood
thingiftheotherchainactuallydies.

OnepointIwouldliketomake,asaninterestingthoughtexperiment,isthatit'simportantto
makereplayprotectiontoallowpriortransactionsbeforethefork.Therewasdiscussionto
changethetransactiontypetoallowforpriortransactiontypes.Particularlyinbitcoinyouneed
todothat.Onechallengeisthatinbitcoinyoumighthavelocktimetransactionsthatare
presignedandwedon'twanttoinvalidate.SomeBitcoinATMvendorshavesometimelocked
coinsandtheycanrecoverthoseintheeventoftheATMbeingstolen,buttheycan'tdothisin
anotherway.

Sotheinterestingwrinkleinthisisthatifyouhavenlocktimetransactions,ifthereisahardfork
constructionthatallowsforanewtransactiontype,anditallowspriors,thenthehardfork
transactionformatwouldnotbereplayable.Well,therewasasuggestioninthatearlier
discussion,topreventreplaywithoutanyneedtochangeanytransactionformatsbutitwas
somewhatcomplicated.Diditrequirenestedorsomethinglikethat?Youwouldrequireminers
tostartproducing0valueTXoutsthatanyonecouldspend.Andthentransactionswouldpick
thoseupandspendthem.Thisisalotofcode.Youdon'thavetorequirethem,theycoulddo
thisvoluntarily.Well,it'scomplicated,itwouldwork,anddoesn'thavethosedownsides.When
wehadthosediscussionsandrealizeditwascomplicated,werealizedhowmuchworkitwould
be.It'seasytodothisasasoftforkwithforinstanceasignaturehashingflagthatsaysthat
thereshouldbeonthestackapreviousblockhashthatisearlierthantodayminus144blocks
whichwouldbeequivalenttothatotherproposal,withzerovalueoutputs.Thechallengewe
hadwiththatisthattheonlypeoplewhowereinterestinginsolvingthatproblematthetime
werethepeoplewhowerenotinterestedinhardforkargumentsatthetime.Wetalkedthrough
someofthis,butGavinwasreallyangrythatweweretalkingaboutthat,hesawthatasaneffort
toundermineahardfork,butitwasn't.

Seemslikewehavenottranslatedinawhile.Theyarereadingthistranscript,live.Iwouldbe
curioustoheartheirperspectivesonanyofthatdiscussion.

Whethertheminoritychainshouldbeallowedtoexistornot.WeseethatinEtheriumVitalksaid
thatitisgoodwithtwochainscoexisting.Butsomeofitmightthinkthattheminoritychain
shouldnotexistatall.

Ithinkabigproblemyouhavewiththatattitudeisthatthemomentyouhaveanydisagreement
itdoeslooklikea51%attackagainstaminoritychain.Atleastwiththeobviouswaytodoitwith
asoftfork.Atworst,youcouldendupwithlegalproblems.

Mepersonally,Iwouldbedubiousaboutparticipatinginaforcedforklikethat.Weshould
distinguishbetweenshouldexistandshouldbeprevented.Itisbadinetheriumthattheother
chainexists,butthatdoesntmean.....anyparticularactiontopreventit,suchactionmightnot
bevalid.

Becauseourdifficultyadjustmentisrelativelyslow,ifweweretosaythatahardforkwouldonly
happenafter99%minersupport,assumingitwasachievedby99%minerssupportingitrather
thanaforcedsoftforktogetthere,youwouldbeinasituationwhereitwouldtakealongtimeto
adjustontheminoritychainthatitwouldnotbeusableoverthere.

Thechallengewiththispointisthat,inthecaseofethereum,it'snotjustthattheymovedwhich
wasaproblemtoo,thegoethereumclientwouldnotsynchronizeashorterchainevenifit'sthe
onlyonewithvalidblocks.EthereumClassichadtoblacklistthehardforkblockimmediately.
EthereumClassicalsoforkedatthatpoint.Itwasasoftfork,though.Ifyoustartaprefork
Ethereumclient,whenonlyhappenedtoconnecttoClassicnodes,itwouldn'tknowatall.It'sa

complexsetofvariablesforthatscenario.Youcan'tcountonretargetto[...]aminorityside,
underbitcoinrules,it'sverydifficulttodomaketradesbecauseyou'rewaitingsuchalongtime.
You'reinapositionwhereit'slesslikelythanethereum,forpeopletostartmakingtradesand
creatingaviablecurrency.Onethingthatwelearnedisthatthere'salargeeconomicincentive
fortraderstoencouragethesplittingofassets.Poloniexaloneinthefirstseveralhoursafter
openingupETCmade$200kintradingfees.Tradershavemademoneyonthevolatility,as
well.Ifnothingelseoccurs,anincidentlikethisisanopportunityforexchangesandtradersto
potentiallymakealotofmoney.Iftheyneedtotakesomeactionstomakethatoutcomeoccur,
thymightdoso,evenifthemarketcapofthecurrencygoesdown.Ethereumcurrencyholders
lostoutonthis,buttheexchangesandtradersmadesomemoney,althoughnotuniversally.
BTCEandCoinbaseareprobablynotdoingsogreat,althoughothersmighthavebetter
outcomessofar.Itmightbeeasytogetintoasituationwhereyoucandoanantireplay
mechanism.Oneexchangemightbeinasituationwheretheyloseatonofmoneyifthefork
hasvalue.Whoisresponsibleforthelackofcarethatledtothissituation?Isittheexchange's
faultswhodidn'tprotectfromreplay?Isitthedeveloper'sfaultfornotforeseeingthisasa
problem?IntheU.S.legalsystem,thewaytoanswerthatisbycourtcases.Ithinkthatinthis
case,becauseitisdesignedmostlybyethereumteam,it'snotlikeopensource,theymight
haveliabilitybecauseIthinklegallyethereummorelooklikeacommercialprojectbecausethey
aresellingapiecelikeacommercialcompany.Sotechnicallyforalawyer,it'sacommercial
project(allopensourceiscommercial).Thespecificeconomicsaroundethereum,likethe
premine,maybemakesastrongerargumentthere.

Ithinkwearelearningaswego,butIhavenoticedthatonlythenativeEnglishspeakersare
talking.Iwouldencourageeveryoneifyouwanttosaysomething,pleasejumpinandmake
yourselfheard.Orifyoufeellikepeoplearegoingtooquickly,askthemtopauseandstop.

Insuchafork,inbitcoin,ifthathappens,lotsofbitcoinminerswillstarttoprotecttheviabilityof
themajoritychain.Theywillvolunteertoattacktheminoritychain.

SooneoftheinterestingthingsinEthereumisthatimmediatelyafterthehardforkoccurredthey
declaredtheothersidetheloser,butbothsidesdidthat.

Iwouldn'tgoandassumethatitwouldbeeasytogetawaywith51%attacksagainstminority
chains.Andtheymightstarttakinglegalactionagainstanyonehere.Iwouldneverdothatwith
mynameattached.PrettygoodchancethatIwouldendupinjailforthat.Wewouldallbe
liabletosomeextent.

Maybeifyoumineanemptyblock,onthatchain,thenbasicallyithasnovalue.Otherwisethey
willcompeteagainsteachotherlongtermforvalue.Ifwejustworktogether,totechnically
somehowmakesuretheminoritychaincannotnotexist.Thereweresomeproposalsmadethat
theminoritychaincouldnotexist,orthattheminorityhastohaveahardforkthemselves,and
thatisfine.

Technicallythisiseasytodo.Thisiscalledaforcedfork.Theproblemisthatthere'sagood
chance,nomatterhowyoudidthat,iftherewassomeoneintheminoritywhosaid"no,you're
attackingus,you'repreventingusfromtransacting"thatcouldthenresultinlegalaction.It's
suchagreyaction.Wehavenoideahowcourtswouldruleonthis.Anyonewiththeirnameson
thispublicly,especiallyinwesterncountries,.Theotherthingisthatwedoknowhowto
increasecapacitythroughsoftforkmethods,soweshouldpreferthat.Butwearegetting
offtopic.Ok.

ThebiggerpointthatweneedtobecarefulaboutisthatintheEthereumcommunity,they
arguedthatthisisasafetymechanisminEthereum,thatifthere'sadisagreementaboutthe
rules,thenlifecangoonandyestheeconomiceffectsoftwocompetingchainsarebadI
agreeaboutthatalthoughtheydon'tallagreethat'sabalancingprotectioninthesystem
perhaps.IfthemajorityofEthereumminerswanttodosomethingbad,assomearguedthat
theydid,thatthenetworkcancontinueonwithoutthem.Andit'sawayforpeopletofeelmore
comfortablewiththeirEthereuminvestments,andthatiftheworsthappens,thentheycouldat
leaststayoninadilutedsplitsystem.Idon'tknowifit'spossible,inbitcoin,toreallymakeitso
thattheminorityforkcannothappeninBitcoin.Evenifwecouldmakeitimpossible,wewould
loseanargumentforBitcoin'slongtermsafety.Weshouldbeconservativeinhowwetalkabout
andthinkaboutthat.Thefactthattheminersarecounterbalancedbytheusersenforcingthe
rulesisanimportantpartofBitcoin'ssecuritymodel.

Inadditiontothat,notjustthelongtermeffectsofhowthataffectsthepseudopoliticalviewof
howthesystemworks,anyefforttotrytocreateasituationwheretheminorityoroneparticular
chaincannotcontinuetoexist,therewillbemanypeoplethatstronglyholdthatviewandthey
willfighttomakesurethatchaincancontinue.Iknowtherehavebeenproposalstomakeitless
likelythataminoritychaincancontinue,Ihavenotseenanythingthatmakesitabsolutely
impossibletocontinue.Ifyouattackaminoritychain,thenbasicallybitcoinisnolonger
permissionless.Thisalsoplayspoorlywithconcernsaboutminingcentralization.Ifthesystemis
balanced,it'sokaytosaytheotherforcesarebalancing,butifyouneedpermissionfromother
minerstorunanotherchain,thenthecentralizationofminingismuchmoreofaconcern.

Inthenextfewmonths,maybeaforkwouldbelikelytohappen,Ijusthave1%ofhashrate
maybe,Idecidetoforkaway.Ihaveonly1%ofthehashrate,andIforkaway.Whatwould
happentothatchain?It'shardtosay.Anddoexchangesneedtocareaboutthat?Theycan
profitfromthat,independentofwhetherthat1%chainistechnicallysecure.Ifsomerandom
personwith1%makesafork,andanexchangedoesn'tknowaboutit,andtheydidn'tprotect
themselvesagainstreplay,dotheyhaveliabilityforanyrandompersonthatmakestheirown
fork?Shouldtherebeastandardmechanismforpreventingreplayinbitcoinhardforks?Evenif
wedon'twanttodoahardfork,weshouldrecommendanantireplaymechanism.The
transactionsshouldcommittoablockhash,whichisdangeroustodowiththemostrecent
blockhashbecausethenreorgscauseproblems.Butifit'sablockhashfrom1dayago,like144
blocks,thenitdoesclosethetimewindowforwhenareplayattackcouldhappen,andthe
chancesarethatthiswouldn'thappenforsituationsthatmightshowupincourt.Weshould

properlyfixreplayinbitcoin,sothatifsomeonewantedtocreateafork,thentherewouldn'tbea
replayissue.

Butcouldntthepurposewhoisforkingcouldchosenottousethatmechanism?Wellthatson
them.Butitsnotonthem.[crosstalk]

Wecantforcepeopletobesensible.Wecoulddosomeworktoencouragethemtobe
sensible.Ithinkatabareminimumonaculturallevel,it'sgoodtoestablishtheprecedencethat
exchangesintheeventofafork,haveanobligationtogivecoinsontheoldforkback.Thisis
moreofaculturalnorm,ofcourse.Oneofthethingswehavetobemindfulabout,inthe
infrastructureofbitcoin,whenwedothingsthatchangethingsonhowbitcoinworks,itimposes
costonalltheusersofbitcoin.Andtheyhavetheirownbusinessconcerns.Ifweimposetoo
muchcostonthemtooquickly,thentheywillrespondindumbwayslikenotlisteningtous,
adoptingstrangealtcoins,ignoringus,etc.

Canwelettheminerstalkalittlebit?

Ithinkthepartoftheblockchaincreatedbymultipleyears,creatinganotherone,splitinachain
continuouslyleavingindependently,createalotofpotentialissues.Wemaybeshouldtakethe
pointofviewthatifsomeonelikestoalternativechain,theyshouldjustwastetheirfearlessone
blockchain,likenewstartforablockchain.Likeanewpoint.Andthencontinue.It'smorelike
splittingtheresultofthepreviousyear,andinOctober'sitslightsandyoucouldneverprevent
exchangesfromplayingonthissplit.Youcouldneverpreventtheusers,becauseyoumostly
relyonuserbeliefofmoney,andononesideoftheblockchainandtheyhavetheprivatekeys.
Therearealotofusers.Thisshouldneverhappen.Mostlikelythecurrentblockchaindoesntfit
intoyourrequirements,andyouwouldliketo,justtocreatesomething.

Okay.Miners,couldyoutalkalittlebitaboutyourperspective?

Idon'tthinkit'sreasonabletoassumethatexchangescangivebacktheothercoin.Thething
withEthereumClassic,it'saninterestingscenarioisthatthethingtheydidntgivebackwasthe
originalcoin.Itwasn'tlikesomeonecreatedsomethingsomeonecreatedsomethingnew,they
jumpedtothenewthing,anddidn'tgivebacktheoriginalasset.Someoftheexchangeshave
givenitbackalready,likeonPoloniex.Theonesthataren'tgivingitback,that'sthesituation
theyarein.

Itsliketwocopiesofthelotteryticket,butthefirsttoshowthelotteryticketgetstheprize.It's
possiblerightnowforcoinbasetogiveitback.Eventhoughtheylost,theycanbuyitback.Let's
saythepricewentbackup,wellthenthere'snoway.Theylostitbecauseofreplayinthiscase.
Ifwe'relookingatwhataretheultimatelessonsfromthistolearn?Whatshouldbethestandard
ofcarefromdevelopers?Someexchangesprofitedfromthevolatilityfromthis.Thinkabout
victims,though.Users,otherexchanges,otherbusinesses,TheDAOhacker,it'satremendous
amountofsystemsthatyouhavetochangeveryquicklyifyou'reanexchangeinaveryfast

movingandconfusingsituation,whenyouhaveasituationlikethis.I'mnoteventalkingabout
legalresponsibility.Whataboutanethicalresponsibilityofthedevelopers?Whatshouldbethe
futurestandardofcarethatweexpectforcryptocurrency?

Iwouldwidenthatfromdeveloperstoinfrastructure.Together,developersandminersarepart
oftheinfrastructurethatmakeBitcoingo,andtoalesserextenttheexchangesand
infrastructureproviders.Theyaretheonesthatmakethebitcoincurrencyusable,wehavea
dutyofcaretomakethesystemstableandmakesureitupholdsitsvalue.Wehavetomake
surethatnobodylosesmoney.

Forexample,theclientshouldavoidthecaseswhereyou'reenteringthewrongaddressand
you'reabletosendthemoneyfornothing,likedestroyingit.ThepointhereisthatEthereum
doesn'tdothateither.

Standardordutyofcare,thecommunityshouldlearnfromhistorylikeincidentslikethis.They
shouldaskthequestion:arethedevelopersmovingtoofast?Aretherereasonsforthischange,
andarethosereasonsgood?

ManypeoplewouldseeTheDAOhackreversalasasocialgood.Andthatgoodcouldoutweigh
thepotentialharm.However,Iwouldmuchratherseedutyofcareasmuchmoreimportantfor
Bitcoin.Iwouldseethisasanimmutableledger.It'sasocialgoodthatoutweighstheseharms.

Thisremindsmeofoneoftheannouncementsonthep2pfoundationsitefromSatoshiwhich
wasthattheadvantageofcryptographyisthatitgivesyousecuritythatcannotbetakenback
nomatterwhatnomatterthereason.(Seelinkforquote)

<http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoinopensource>

Ithasclearlypoisonedtheotherchain.Alotofthecommunityhasfounditlessinteresting
becauseitnolongerlivesuptowhatotherpeoplejoinedthecommunitytodo.Thatwasnot
analyzedwhenpeoplesaid"justreturnTheDAOcoins".Youcannotcontrolthemarkets.Alotof
userslostmoneyintheEthereumhardfork.Someofthemlosttrustinblockchaintechnology,
maybeforever.

Otheraspectsofdutyofcarecouldincludethevigorousnessoftechnicalreview,havinga
specification,promisesmadetouserswhenasystemisnotready.Clearcommunicationto
users.

Hasethereumscaredusersawayfromcryptocurrencyingeneral?Ithinkithassome,atleast.
Didwe,thebitcoincommunity,doenoughtowarnpeopleinadvanceoftheseeventswith
ethereum?Ifwehaddonemore,wouldithavescaredawayfewerpeoplebecause"wetoldyou
so"?Idon'tknow.Ihavekeptmycriticismsofethereumrelativelyquiet,becauseIdonotbenefit
fromcriticizingtheirefforts.IfIsaythatethereumhasabaddesign,thensomepeoplewould

sayhooray,andtheethereumpeoplewouldthrowmorerocks.Thereareenoughpeoplethat
arethrowingrocksatmealreadyanyway.

Therehasbeenalotofschadenfreudeinthiscommunity.Damagesinethereumhurtusalltoa
verysignificantlevel.ButatthesametimeIcouldhavewarnedpeoplemore.Ithinkweareall
guiltyofthis.Whenitpertainstolegalrisks,iftheydothingsthatcouldcomplicatethingsfor
us.....Alsokeepinmindthatthissituationisnotoveryet.It'sacompetitivesolutionit'slike
blamingonesideandanotheroneside.Onlyindependentexperts,independenttechnical
expertswhounderstandhowblockchainworks,mightmarkthepotentialriskforthetechnology.
Butfromourside,itdoesn'tlooklikea...evenifweprovideanyindication,thiscouldbe
interpretedbymanysides,butneitherpersonwouldbejustblaming.

Thehardthingisthatexpertsdon'texist.Askingsomeonetocreatelikecertificationor
qualification,...itwillalsobeharmfulfortheretobecertification.Thisisagreatriskinmany
industries.Ifcryptocurrencyasawholedoesn'tmatureandbehaveresponsibly,theresultwill
bethateitherwefailentirely,ortherewillberegulatorypressurethatcreatesenormouscostfor
allofus.Wedon'twantthat.Inthepast,Ihavereachedouttocompetingcryptocurrenciesand
toldthemadviceabouthowtheymightbescrewingthingsup.Somehavelistened,othershave
not.Thereareplaceswhereasawholecryptocurrencyneedstogetitsacttogethersothatwe
don'tendupgettingregulatedinbadways.

Thiskindofriskisaparticularlybadone.Wecan'tfunctioninanenvironmentwheredevelopers
asawholecan'toperateinthepublic.Ifwewereinapositionwherewehadtoallbe
pseudonymous,anonymouslikeSatoshiandsoon,andifdeveloperswouldbepoliticallyand
legallyblamedfortheiractions,nothingwouldgetdone.Noticehowoutsidetheroomitdoesnot
say"bitcoinmeeting".FBIknows.Ibetyourplaneticketsays.

Weneedtolettheminerstalk.Anyoneelsewhohasn'tbeenspeaking?

Iwouldactuallysaythatregardingtheethhardforkthatyesthesituationisstillongoing,but
evenifcompletedtheanalysisshouldbegoingonforsometime.Wehaventheardallthe
storiesabouthowvariouscompanieswereaffectedbythehardfork,butthatdoesntmeanthat
theydontexist.Thereshouldbeapostmortem.

Ifwewaitlongenoughtheywillprobablydoanotherhardforkanyway.

It'simportanttounderstandthatalltheconfusionandlossesandbrokenpromiseswereentirely
foreseeable.Andmanypeoplehadforeseentheseproblems.ThewholeEthereumdebacleis
reallybadforBitcoinbecauseitshowsthatsomecryptocurrenciesarenottrustable.Forthe
generalpublic,it'shardforthemtomakethedistinctionatall.Thepublicdoesn'tknowthe
difference.

There'saquestionofproductdifferentiationthatariseshere.IthinktheEthereumsplitisan
opportunityforbitcointobeproductdifferentiatedfromethereum.ButIdon'tknowwhatthat
productmessageisexactly.Idon'twanttosaysomethinglike"bitcoinneverhasanyhardforks
ever"becauseIcan'tmakethathappenanyway.Howabout"Bitcoinhasavigorousdutyof
care"?

OncewehaveAIandmachinesmanufacturingminingrigsandsettingupautomatedfacilities,
andAIwritingcodeandwetakeoutthehumanelement,thenbitcoinisreallyimmutable.The
ethereummissionstatementwasbasicallyexactlythat.Removingthehumanelement.We
couldsaythatwe'redoingthesamething,andweare,scriptvalidationislaw.Ifyouredefine
law,thenthat'smeaningless.Thisisprofoundforme,becausetheethereumwebsitehadthe
strongestlanguageandit'sstillthere.TheethereumwebsiteandethereumREADMEsaid...it
hadthestrongeststatementthatcodeisalw,andit'smuchstrongerthananythingon
bitcoin.org,andithadacontractlikecodeislaw,andalessonweshouldtakefromthisisthat
sayingthesethingsdoesn'tmakeittrue.Anditdoesn'tevenpersuadepublicopinion,atleast
notenoughtopreventamess.

Idon'tknowwhatitisthatcausesthisexpectation.Ultimatelyitisexpectationofthecommunity,
ifacommunityassumesthatahardforkforwhateverpurposesarehard,thentheyarehard.If
peopleassumetheyarenothard,thentheyarenotdifficult.Inthecaseofethereum,or
TheDAO,therewasanexplicitlanguageandanexplicitcontractthatsaidtheopposite.
CompareittotheBitcoineventwhereMtGoxhappened,wheresortoftherelativeeconomic
impactwasthesame.Icannotrememberanyoneevensuggestingasimilarapproach.So
clearlyatthetimeinBitcointherewasanexpectationdifference.Wastherejustoneaddressto
dotoundotheMtGoxproblem?Wellyesthatwasadifference.Wouldahardforkhavebeen
considerediftherewasasingleaddressintheMtGoxproblem?Welltherewasaconcernabout
MtGoxdestroying3000BTCbecausetheysentittoazerolengthscript.Therewasdiscussion
muchlateronwheresomerandompersononIRCdiscussedahardforktorecoverthose3000
BTC.Itnevergotanytraction.

It'saconflictofinterestwhenthere'ssomeinsidersthathaveavestedinterestintheoutcomeof
anevent...ifyouhaveastrongseparationofconcerns,wherethedifferentplayersarenot
crossingover,wellweallhavekindofavestedinterest.It'sdifferentbecauseofTheDAO.
EthereumFoundationhassomethinglike20%ofallether.Itgivesthemalotofweight.With
MtGox,ifwereversedtheMtGoxstuff,IwouldhavemadeaprofitfromtheMtGoxinsolvency
coins,butIneversuggestedthatbecauseitwouldbewrongtodo.

AlotofthefintechstuffIhaveworkedon,thedatatodoreversalsimplydoesnotexistinthe
public.Fungibilityactuallyboostsimmutabilitybecauseifyoucan'ttargetthecoinstotakeback,
thenyoucan'tevenmakeaproposaltoundoit.Atminimum,itrequiresalotofupfronteffortto
dothatchange.IfIwantedtoreverseaMtGoxscenario,Iwouldspendacouplemonthspetition
userstocollectdataabouttheMtGoxscenario,andperhapsthiswouldbestretchedouteven
longer,whichwouldbehelpfulforpreventingahardfork.


Talkingaboutwhatwecanlearn:Theexpectationregardingtheethereumhardfork,weare
talkingaboutmakingithardtodoreversalsinBitcoininsuchacaseasifitwasalwaystheright
thing.Anditmightnotalwaysbethecase.ButIthinkwhatcouldhappenisthatifyoubuilda
systemwhereitisnearlyimpossibletoreverseincaseofamistakebeingmade,peopleare
morediligentaboutwhatpeopledowiththeirmoney.Thisistheoutcomethatyouwant.You
wantpeopletousethesysteminawaywherethepeoplearesufficientlydiligentsuchthatthere
isnodemandforreversalinthefirstplace.Thiscouldbedonebyeducation,forexample.

Ifyouwantareversiblesystem,youcouldalwaysbuilditonasecondlayerontopofthe
immutablelayer.Thisisnottechnicallyhard.Idon'tthinkthatpeopleinthecommunityrealize
this.There'saspecialelementinTheDaowhereitwasdescribedas"perfectlysafe"whereas
nobodyintheBitcoinworlddescribedMtGoxas"perfectlysafe".TheDaowasdescribedas
perfectlysafeandifyoudidn'tlikeityoucouldtakeoutthecoins.Thisissomethingweshould
bemindfulaboutforfuturesmartcontractwork.

BothTheDaoandMtGoxwerebothperceivedas"toobigtofail"tosomeextent.ButyesMtGox
failed.

Ihadanideaforaunderhandedsmartcontractcontestcompetetocomeupwiththebest
safelookingscriptthatactuallystealsmoney.Thiswouldhelpincreaseawarenessregarding
howdifficultitistocreatesafesmartcontracts.IstoppedworkingonthisbecauseofTheDao
hackbecauseitwouldbeinpoortaste.

InFinancialCryptoconference,therewasashorttalkaboutaparticularscriptinEthereumthat
wasaprovablepyramidscheme.Itwasnotonlyapyramidscheme,itwasadvertisedasone,
anditwasalsoaprovablepyramidscheme,andyetpeoplestillsentmoneytoit.Yes,it's
gambling.It'stheethereuminvestmentthesis.Somepeoplewanttoplaythatgame.Peoplelike
theredistributionofwealthgame.It'sagame.Butthereareprobablymanythingsthatthe
bitcoincommunitycoulddotoincreaseawarenessofvariousrisk,whichmightreducetheriskof
thinkingthingslike"thenetworkneedstoreversetosavetheDao"."Ofcourseitwasfullof
bugs".ItwouldhaveplayedoutdifferentlyintheEthereumworldbecauseofthat.Well,withthe
exceptionoftheEthereumFoundationconflictofinterest.

WesawthepollbeforetheEthereumFoundationhardfork.Therewas1020%againstit,but
weseerightnowthemarketcapofETCisabout20%ofthemarketcapoftheETHFcurrency
now.Wecanseethisdisagreementbetweentwopartiesbecauseonepartysayweshould
have"codeislaw"andtheotherpartysays"sincethisDAOhackisnotacceptableandlotsof
peoplelosemoney,thenweshouldsaveitbecausetheyaresayingsaveit".It'sadifferent
opinionbetweentwoparties.That'swhyETCcangainmomentum.Rightnow,forBitcoin,we're
inadifferentsituation.Increasetheblocksizeornot.DopeopleinCorestillagree,1020%,is
thatstillasignificant?

Thereareafewpointstomakehere.20%ofethereumpeoplevotedforitand80%voted
against...itwasonly5%thatvotedatall.Itwas5%voted.Andthen20%ofthe5%was...soit's
veryunclearwhattheactualnumberswouldhavebeen.

.....

Withbitcoin,again,wecantrytoknow.Butkeepinmindthatpeoplesawahardforkgohorribly
wrong.ItwentwronginawaywherealotofpeopleinvestedinBitcoinwouldconsideritgoing
reallywrong.PerhapstoEthereuminvestorstheymighthaveotherexpectations.Idon'tthinkI
couldconvincealotofBitcoinerstodoahardfork,anymore,afterthis.

TheoutcomeforEthereumisnowherenearasbadasitwouldbeforBitcoin,whichisactually
usedbypeople.WhereasEthereumisnotreallyusedinanyretailorp2pmoneytransfer
crossborderstuffrightnow.Peoplearebuyingitonanexchangeandthentheyputitinto
TheDAOormaketestcontractsthatdon'thaverealvalue.WhereasinBitcointhereisreal
moneytobelostbymistakes.

Butarguingtheotherway,inBitcointhereismoreincentivetogetthedetailsright.Ethereum
failedeventhemostbasicduediligenceintermsofevenspecifyingwhattheyweredoing.In
Bitcoinland,wewouldn'tfailatthatpart.InBitcoin,whatwedomattersalotmorethanwhat
theydoinEthereumtoday.Butyouhaveapointatleast.

It'sstilldifficulttogetaccurateviewsonanyofthese.I'mnotsurewehaveanycleverwayto
pollthecommunitythatEthereumdidn'ttrybeforethehardfork.Theyspentafewdaysof
polling,whereasinBitcoinwewouldtakemanymonthsoryearstogathertheelectiondata.I
don'tthinkwehaveacleverwaytopollthecommunity.

Partoftheproblemisthatopinionschange,andtheyareoftenconditional,andit'shardto
collectalltheconditionsofthoseopinions.Ifyoustartwithoneidea,thenchangeit,other
peoplemightnolongerfindthoseopinionstoberepresentativeoftheirbeliefs.

It'sdifficulttoreasonaboutdynamicsystemsthatinvolvethesenonlinearincentive
relationshipsandwejustneedtotargetstability.Inthebitcoincommunity,wefavorsoftforks
becausewecanbuildsafetymechanismswhereitislesslikelytoresultintwochains.Wecan
dothiswithconsensusbuildingaswell.Ithinkthatinaworldwhereeveryonewantsahardfork
tohappen,andtheyallagree,thenit'snotabigdeal.Butit'sagreyareabetweeneveryoneand
noteveryone,andhowdoyoudeterminethis?

TheactoftheEthereumFoundationreleasingthehardforkwaspartlythecauseofthetrouble.
Itseemedofficialthattherewasavoteandeverythingwasdecided.Andthenminers/pools
piledon.Andinsomecases,minersvotedagainstit,buttheirpooldidn'twanttobetheone
miningtheminoritychain,andignoredtheuservote.Thathappenedandit'snotrepresentative.
That'stheButerinEffect.

Theofficialairofitgaveitmoretractionthanitwouldhavehadorganically.Ifyousaidhere's
anotherclientatanotherareatodownload,ifthatwashowitwasdone,thenitmayhavetaken
monthsandmonthsifeverfortheforktoactivatebecausenotenoughpeoplewouldhave
cared.Poolswerejustlookingatthisoutofcontroleffectthatjusthappens.

Ifthatonepooldidn'tswitchtotheotherfork,theywouldhavemadealotofEthereumClassic
coins.Thisisnotuniquetothiskindofsituation.It'sthesameinalmosteveryvoteonanything,
likeelectionsinanymajorcountry.Peopleareoftenheavilyinfluencedbywhotheyaretoldwho
willwin.Exitpolling,even,canhavemajoreffectonthis.Ifsomeoneisonanexitpollshowing
theotherway,itcouldswingtheotherway.

Thevalueofmoneyisinconsensus.SotheButerinEffecthereiswaystrongerherethanin
otherpoliticalsystems.Itmakessensetogowiththemajoritybecauseotherwisemymoney
mightnotbeworthverymuch.Thiscouldcauseabigamplificationeffect.Itlookedforawhile
thattheEthereumClassicmarketpricewouldgoup,itwouldbemoreprofitabletomine,some
hashratewouldjoin,thepricewouldgoup,thenmorehashratewouldjoin,andatsomepointit
reachedsomeequilibriumwhereitwouldstopgoingup.Thehashrategottothepointwhere...
thereweretheserunawayeffects.It'spsychological.It'sapsychologicalcauseforprice
increase.Itcausedpeopletoexplorethesupplydemandcurveinawaythatmovedtheprice
up.Somepeopleweresaying"ohithas12%thehashrate,sowhyisitonly10%ofthemarket
capthereforeitisunderpriced".

Ithoughtitwasinterestingthattherewereprobablyalotofminersthathadnoopinioneither
way,buttheymineditbecausetheycouldmakeprofit.Yep,that'swhathappened.That'showit
works.Forafuturepossiblesplit,it'ssomethingtoconsider.

Thereisalotofprofittobemadebystirringthepotandincitingpeopletogooffandgoona
differentfork,ormaybeincitepeopletodothingsthatmightnotbeinthebestinterestofthe
system.Asinfrastructureprovidersofbitcoin,weshouldbecarefultoavoidstirringthepot,and
weshouldbecleartonotputourselvesinapositionwhereitisincrediblyprofitabletocause
thingstohappen.

PrettygraphofhashrateandpriceofETC/ETH:
<http://slacknation.github.io/medium/13/13.html>

Socialaspectsareincrediblyimportanttounderstandthepossibilityofhavingthesocial
motivationforhavingacontentioushardforkinthefirstplace.Itsinterestingbecauseitis
Hobbesian.Youcanhavedifferentsocialconstructs.

...andbyavoidingthat,youcancreatenewsocialsystemsthataremorefair,etc.And
ethereumistryingtobuildasocietywheretheirjustificationsarerelatedtosocialnorms.How

yougoabout,youhavethepoliticaljustificationlikea"majority"or"majoritybelief"thatthecoins
shouldbetakenback.Andweneedtobecognizantthatthroughoutthehistoryandfuture
historyofcryptocurrency,thisisgoingtobeadefiningfactorintermsofjustificationfordoing
this.

Thisideaoflike,what'sgoingtocomenextafterthat,we'realreadyincreasingtheblocksize
withsegwit.That'stherealityofit.Withsegwit,theblocksizeincreasethatwe'redoingisa
onetimething.Theunderlyingtechnicaldetailsofthisisthatwecannotrepeatsegwitagain,
althoughwegetaboostfromSchnorrsignaturesinthenearfuture.Thespecifictechniqueonly
worksonce.Withhardforks,youcouldattempttodothatindefinitelyandcreateanewcoin
everysingleday.Therecouldbeatradeoffbetweendecentralizationandsizefromeachday,
anddoingahardforkfromthatstandpointcouldbequitecontroversialdependingonthesocial
precedence.It'shardtoavoidthatlevelofsocialcontroversyifyou'retryingtodoablocksize
increasehardfork.Equally,justthenotionthatanyonecoulddoahardforkatall,itwouldbe
controversialandit'strickytomakeitlesscontroversial.

Tobringitbacktoethereum,sinceethereumclassichassuchalowergasrate,couldweget
thegasrateraiseduptoinfinityandtestoutafullyscaledupchain?Thatcouldbereally
interesting,becausethenwedon'thavetotestbitcoinwithtransactionfeesonly.Theydidn't
forktheirtestnet,inethereum,theyhadatestnetbuttheydidn'tforkitfirst.Hasethereumforked
theirtestnet?

TheysetupacontinuousintegrationnetworkcalledHivetodotesting.Youhavetodolive
networktesting.Youlearndifferentthingsindifferentenvironments.Noneofthemteachyou
thingsthatyoulearnintheproductionnetwork.

It'smoreofanopportunityforsecurityresearcherstosay"aha!Ibrokeyourtestnetwork",you
knowinsteadofsaying"aha!Ibrokeyourcoin"whichwouldbedecidedlyworse.

Youcananswersomeeconomicquestionswithatestnetwork.OneofthethingsIwanted
Gavintodowithhisblocksizeincreaseproposal,wastobackdatethedateofthefork
sufficientlyfarbacksothatwecouldseewhetheranyonebotherstoruntestnodes.Youwould
needacouplehundredgigsofharddrivespacetoeventestthis.Hesaid,inprivate,"ofcourse
nobodywouldrunit".Buthedidn'tthinkthatwasimportant.Hehadapoint:thefactthatnobody
wouldruntestnet,withlotsof8MBblocks,doesn'tmeanthatnobodywouldrunbitcoinwith8
MBblocks.

DuringtheEthereumhardfork,exchangesmakeplaymoreimportantroleforthesuccessof
EthereumClassic.Afterfork,wedidmineanumberofblocksontheoldchain.Untilwegaveup
andnobodygaveusany......butethereumclassicgetssucceedoncemajorexchange
supportedthechain.Ifweforkbitcoin,Ithinkit'sasituationmaybesimilar.

Bythewayveryinterestingthattheexchangeprice,itwasbasedonbitcoin.Theexchangerate
isbasedonbitcoinprice.Sowhatcurrencytosetuptheprice?Krakenpairsareallbitcoin
basednow.

IhavetalkedwithEthereumdevelopersaboutthis.Theyareallgettingpaidinbitcoin.Their
pricesaredenominatedinbitcoin?Thewaythattheygetpaidisbytransferringbitcoin.They
haveUSDdenominatedsalaries,butit'spaidinBTC.

Someofthisethereumactivityhasimpactedbitcoinprice.Ontheexchanges,everyonewho
madeaninvestmentinethereum,...thevolumeoffiatforethereumisverysmall.People
makingtheexchangeforbitcoinandthenfrombitcoinforfiatforusethenforeuro.Thisisthe
reasonwhythebitcoinpriceispressuredallthistimevolumesellingishigher.Sothepeople
justleavingethereum,atleastsomeofthem[aredrivingdowntheprice].

Thesuggestionthattheygaveuponminingethereumclassic,becauseitwasn'tnecessarilyas
tradeable,tomethatbegsthequestionisittheobligationofexchangestoalwaysbydefault
continuelistingthepreforkedcoin?Evenwith99%of,....Well,rememberthere'salotof
moneytobemadewithlistingallthethings.Butlet'ssayyouhaveapreferenceforone.At
minimum,becauseyouboughtin,youshoulddeliver.

Sayyouareagolddepository.Andthere'sanewthingcalledlead.Andyou'reswitchingtolead.
Yeahyoushouldswitchtolead.Butatminimumyoushoulddeliverthegoldbars.

Abetterexamplearestocksplits.It'smoreclearthatyoushouldgivebothpartsback,aftera
stocksplit.It'sproperty.Aslongastherearesomeblocksontheotherchain,it'shardtoargue
incourtoflawthatyoucouldgetawaywithoutdeliveringbothcoinproperties.

Theycouldhavewaitedamonthwithsomebestefforttoholdcoinstoseehowthingsplayout.

Havewebeatthistopictodeathyet?

Soonethingtosayaboutethereum,isthatyoucansaythatwhatethereumdidwellisthatthey
madelotsofpositivemediaandPRwhilethingswerefailinginthebackground.Theycontinued
totauntsuccess,whileeverythingwasfailinginthebackground.Inbitcoin,wetendtosay
thingslike"Idon'tlikethewaythat'sgoing"andhaveourargumentsinpublic.Itmightbegood
forbitcoinconfidenceifweweremorepositive,likelet'ssaycompanieswereworkingtogether
tosayjointpositivemarketing.ThatkindofPRandmarketing,inthebitcoinworld,hasthe
abilitytobeselffulfilling.Withalittlebitmore,theethereumsidecouldhavemaybeavoided
someofthis,iftheywerebetteratthis.Atatechnicallevel,wecouldbeveryupfrontwitheach
other.

Youhavetobecarefulabouthowfaryougowiththis.Youhavetobuildtrustwithexternal
communities.Theyhavetoknowthatwhentheyaretalkingwithyou,theyaregettingthereal

deal.Previouslyatageophysicsstartup,theyliketobringtheinvestorstotheengineerswho
talkfranklyaboutwhat'sworkingandnotworking,becausewe'retalkingabouta12yearproject
with$150billionpouredintoit.Theinvestorswanttohearthatsomethingrealforthenextyear
ishappening,notthatsomethingthatisbeingfiltered.Ithinkthereisabalance.

Youhavetolookatotherindustrieswherenobodywoulddreamoflettingengineersspeakin
public,whichcouldbackfireforthoseindustries.It'snotnecessarilythewaytogoforsome
industries.

Therewillbeareceptionin20minutes.Wecankeeptalking.Wecaneatandtalk.

Maybethiskindofhardforkisverydifficulttobepreventedfrom,thiskindofcryptocurrency
system.Theideaofacurrencyisgivenbytheconsentofthepeoplewhohaveparticipatedin
thesystem.Inahardforktheremightbe3groupsofpeople.Twokindsmightbe,Iwillpersistin
A,andtheotherpartywillpersistinB,andtherewillbesomepeoplewhosaybothpartieshave
wonandnowthere'stwocoins.Inthatsituation,thesplitofthecommunitywillbeveryhardto
beprevented.Beforetheethereumhardfork,lotsofpeoplestillhaveanillusionthatokay
maybeoneisthegenuineethereum...actuallythat'salie,itwillnotsurvive.Butafterthe
hardforkwejustseethatthere'sactuallynogenuinechain.Andtheminers,tokilltheminority
chain,isittherightthingtodo?Anyotherhardforkisnowmoredifficultasaresultofthe
ethereumhardfork.

Ethereum'shardfork,forexample,isverycontroversial.It'sagainsttheirownadvertisement
thatcodeislaw.Inbitcoin,increasingtheblocksizeismuchlessimportantrule,it'sjusta
technicalrulethatwaswrittenbySatoshiin2010.It'stechnical,butit'snotrelatedtothe
philosophyorthevalueofthesystem.Ithinkthisthing,makesmaybeinthefutureanyhardfork
willbecontentiousnomatterwhat.

Canyouexplainwhyyoudon'tthinkit'stiedtovalue?Well,Ithinkhemeantmoralvalue.Why
doyouthinktheblocksizechangeisnottiedtomoralvalue?Ifwedidahardforktounlimited
bocksize,IwouldquitandIwouldbedone.Theblocksizeatatechnicalleveldeterminesthe
decentralizationandwhetherpeoplecanparticipaterunningthenodes.

Butperhapsweshouldlookatthisintermsoffungibility.Iftherewasahypotheticalbreakin
fungibility,thenpeoplewouldfindbitcoinuninterestingandmoveon.Blocksizecanbreak
fungibility,andthat'swhyit'scontroversial.

Thefactthatyou'rehardforkingforablocksizechange,obviouslypresupposesthatyou're
hardforking.Butwehaveasoftforkforblocksizeincrease.Theforkitself,....hardforkfrom
thepointofviewrightnow,inthefuture,anyhardforkwillbecontentiousbecausepeoplecan
alwaysargueohthisforkIdisagreewith,andbothsidespersist.

Didyousaysoftforkaswell?


Ifweactivateasoftforkwith95%withhasrhate,andsomeonesays,thissoftforkIdon'tagree
with.Theywouldhavetohardfork.Maybesomepeopledon'tacceptasoftfork.

Theresacommonargumentthatwithasoftforkthereislessopportunityforpeopleto
disagree.Thereisalsonoproblemwithdisagreeing.Youarefreeto.Letsletitplayoutsay
thatasoftforkisblocked.6%dontrunit.Whathappens?Itdoesntactivate.

Thenitjustdoesn'thappen.Thensaythissituationpersists,andtherearepeopleareangryand
theywanttheadditionalcapacityandfeatures.ThenIthinkthatsituationissimilartowhat
happensifminersareblockingsomekindsoftransactions.Becausetheyareeffectively
blockingthesegwittransactions,whichpeoplecannotmakewithoutthatchange.Sohowwould
usersrespondifminerswereblockingandcensoringthesetransactions?Howwouldthe
stakeholdersrespond?Idontthinkweknow.

Therehavebeenguessesthatpeoplehavemadeaboutthisinthepast.Perhapstherewould
beahardforkorsomething.Butwedon'tknow.

Thisisnotaboutdisagreeingwithsoftforks.Thesolutionwehaveforthisisfungibility.If
transactionsarenotidentifiable,thenthisproblemgoesawayentirely.That'ssortofanaside,
though.

Goingbacktotheotherpointthough,maybeafterEthereum,allhardforksarecontroversial
perhaps.Ihopethatisnottrue.OnethingthatwhenhardforkscameupinBitcoin,whichI
proposed,wasthatthisblocksizestuffwhetheryoulikeitornot,hascontroversy.Thereare
changesthatwecoulddothatwouldbeuncontroversialaspossible,ifweweregoingtotalk
aboutahardforkinbitcoin,thenweshouldfirstgetexperiencewithachangethatispurely
technical.Ithinkthatblocksizeisnotapurelytechnicalmeasure.Perhapsachangethat
everyoneiscapableofagreeingwith,forafirsthardfork.

BecauseofthissplitinEthereum,itsetsaprecedentforBitcoinforthepossiblefutureof
hardforks.Forbitcoin,ahardforktherecanonlybetwooptions.Onesidemustacceptmultiple
chains,multipleattacksfrommultiplevectors,orwejuststayonthemainchainandtrytokillthe
forksandtheminoritychains.Therecanonlybetwopossibilities.Eitheryouacceptthatthere
willbemultiples,oracceptthatyoucanattack.

Attackscouldbestopped,becauseyouchangethePoWontheotherchainuntiltheattackis
notsuccessful.AndbotnetsmighthavePoWtoattackanywayonanewchain.

Ihave10%inthisdirectionandyouAmericangovernmentsaysIlikethisdirection.
Companiescanleadtheirownchainsbecauseofthehashingpowertheyhave.....

...priceincrease,anditmayhavemorethan50%ofhashrate,tobecomethemainchain.


Idon'tthinkwewantmultiplechains.Ithinkthatwouldbebadforbitcoin.

Hispointisthatyouifyoudon'twantmultiplechains,youhavetoattacktheotherchains.No,
thisisuntrue.Therearewaystopreventthoseattacks.

Inthepast,peoplethoughtthatahardforkisgoodbecausethereisAandB.Inasoftfork,...if
somethingisnotcontroversial,maybeit'sbettertouseasoftfork.

Holdon.Irejectthepremisethatahardforknecessarilyresultsinmultiplechains.Many
hardforkswouldresultinmultiplechains.Therearetechnicalwaystopreventthis.Anyonecan
makeanewhardfork.It'salwaysapossibility,evenifnochangeismade,likewecouldwalk
outofthisroomwith10hardforksofBitcoininthenext10minutes.

Idon'tthinkthat'stherealspectrumofchoices.Attackswillnotbesuccessfulifpeoplewant
anotherchaintoaccept,ifyouusetechnicalmeanstopreventthoseattacksfrombeing
successful.

Ithinkisunnecessarilypessimistictoassumethatanyhardforkinthefuturewillresultintwo
chainsorbecontentious.It'shypotheticallypossiblethatacarefullypreparedplanwithall
stakeholdersinagreementsomehowoversomesufficientperiodoftime,oversometimeperiod
tosatisfydutyofcare,tomakesomechangethathasnophilosophicaloreconomiceffect,or
verylittle,thenthosethingsshouldn'tresultinanymoredramathanwhatwecouldcreate
withoutatriggeringfactor.

Doyouthinkexchangesandtradersprofitingfromit,wouldtheycreatedrama?Buttheycando
thatnow.

Itrequiresuserstobelievethat,atanypoint,therewouldbesomepoint,....right?

..becauseofthe...anyonewhowantstostartanewcoinbusiness,theycouldcontrolacertain
positionofthehashrate,youcouldforkoffthecurrentchainandperformahardforktoleadthe
chainintheotherdirectionthatyouwouldlikeittogo.Andtherecouldbeonlytwowaystodeal
withthat,eitherwehavetoacceptthatforkorwehavetosuppress.

No,nowevebeensayingstronglythattherearetechnicalmeasuresthatcanbetakento
preventtherefrombeingthatchoicebetweenfollowandattack.

PoWchange.Okstop,onepossibilityisthatthereisnotaforkcreated.Oneproposalthatwas
made,asahardforkchange,wouldbetoineverybitcoinblockheader,thereis32bitsof
zeroeswhicharealwayszerobecauseoftheminimumdifficultyinthefieldthatcontainsthe
priorblockhash.Therewasaproposaltohardforkthesystemsuchthatthevaluesthathaveto
bezerorightnow,couldbeanyvalue.Thiswouldgiveyouextranoncespaceintheheader,

whichwouldgiveyouthingsliketheasicboostoptimizationwithouthavingtouseversionspace.
Itwouldalsoallowmoreefficientmininghardware.Itwouldchangenothingelseaboutthe
operationofthesystem.Ifthiswasdone,thenIthinkitwouldjusthappenandtherewouldnot
bemultiplechains.However,theasicboostpatentsmakethispolitical,whereasearlieritwould
havenotbeenpolitical.

Ifsomeonehastheeconomicmotivationtocreateafork,thenthechoicefundamentallyisto
allowtheforkoryoudisallowthefork.That'strueforaltcoinsaswell,though.Effectivelya
hardforkisanaltcoin,butit'spredistributedinthesamewaythatbitcoinisdistributed.Thishas
existedinthepastinbitcoin,likeClams.It'snotaproblem.Isuspectthatifyoudidahardfork
likethatone,withareasonableamountofnotice,andanabilitytogetstrongindicationsfrom
thestakeholdersandcoinholdersand1bitinnsequence,ifyousawthatfor90%ofthe
transactionsforthepast12months,thenIcouldseeyeahtheoldversionofbitcoinmightbe
traded,butyouwouldbeinasituationwherethesocialconsensuswouldbetomostlyignoreit.
Ithinkthat'smuchhigherchance,incomparisontoethereumwithshortnoticefordubious
reasons.

Wehadthe...whichdideventuallyforkoffoldernodesinMarch2013,noforkwascreatedin
actuality,becauseitwasinthesoftwareformanymonthsbeforehand,itwasuncontroversial,
therewereannouncements,therewerefixesthatyoucouldapplytooldclients.Occasionally
thereareoldclientsthatforkoff,andtheytrytogetbackon.Soyeah....

AsIsaid,even,Iwouldnotdefinethatasahardfork.Itisfromatechnicalpointofviewthatit
wasahardfork.Therewasnoforkactuallycreated.Itwasahardforkrulechange,butnotan
actualhardfork.Ithinkusuallywhenwesayhardfork,wemeanrulechange.Wedon'tmean
anactualfork.Whenpeopletalkabouthardforkinacolloquialsense,theyarereferringtothe
otherthing.Thusthisisinherentlyimpossibletotalkaboutinaclearway.

Idon'tthinkthattechnicallyhashrateattacks,Idon'tthinkthat'sanoptionthatmakessense.
Plusthelegaloptions.Weacceptthataltcoinsexist.It'snodifferent.Itisthesame.
Mastercoin....Clamsisabetterexamplehere.

Inethereum,EthereumClassicsaystheyaretherealcoin,andEthereumForksaystheyare
therealcoin.Usingtheword"altcoin"mightbepoliticallyloaded,though.It'sunfortunate.

Iamsorryforusingthiswordagain,butIwouldsay,thenIwouldsaythatthereasonwhythe
ethereumcommunitysplitinthisway,ultimatelygoestoaviolationofadutyofcare.Ifthey
wereadequatelycarefulinhowtheyapproachalltheirdecisionsandpromises,thentheywould
havemoreuniversalsupportofthecommunityinonedirectionortheother.Idon'tknow,thatis
thefundamentalissue.Well,iftheyhadtheydonethatsufficientlywell,thentheywouldn'thave
doneaTheDAObailout.

8conversationsatthesametime.Needmorecephalopodarms.Morechainsneeded.


AfailureofdutyofcareinthiscaseforEthereumwasnotbeingcarefulinengineeringforthe
disastertohappen.There'smorethanthat.Theyweretemptedtoviolatetheirownprinciples.
TherewasalsoaconflictofinterestinthattheywereinvestedinTheDAOaswell.Theoutcome
couldhavebeendifferentwithouttheconflictofinterestwiththeirTheDAOinvestments.

Whathewassayingwasthatpeopleinthisroomareangels.Dontassumedevilsdontexist.
Youcantassumesomeactorswillnotforktoaminoritychaintodisruptthemarket.

EVAsdon'texist????

Couldyouexplain,he'smakingapointaboutgametheory,or,Iamnotfollowing.Yes,game
theory.

Ithinkthere'samisunderstanding,Idon'tthinkanyoneissayingthatwethinkit'sbadtoattack
andsoattackswonthappen.IthinktheargumentIwasmakingwasthatattackstosuppressan
altcoinwon'tbesuccessful,becausetheycanchangetheirtechnicalrulestosuppressthe
attacksusingsecuritydefenseattacks.Politicalandmarketattacksmightbemuchmore
successful.51%attackanaltcoinandtheywilladopt,theywillchangetheirPoW,theywillmake
technicaldefenses.

Ithinkitisimportanttoemphasizethatinthesamewayasbitcoin,altcoinscandeploytechnical
defensesaswell.

Thehistoryofthisisthattherewasanaltcointhatwaskilledbecausesomeonesaiditwas
dead.That'smostlywhathedid.Hewasalso90%ofthehashrateonthis.Buthesaiditwas
deadandthatstoppedit.

Ihavetopointouttherewasanexampleofanaltcointhatwasattackedbya99%hashrate
attack.Ithadlikea72blocktimewarpingreorg.Theymadezerochangesandsurvivedfor2
yearsbeforechangingthePoW.Ithinkthiswasfeathercoin.

Therewasanotheronewherethedevelopersattackedit.Thereislotsofobscurehistoryhere
thatishardtodocumentinatimelymanner.HaveyoueverplayedagamecalledIlluminati?
Let'sbustouttheboardgameandwecanallplayIlluminatitheboardgame.

Shortreceptionbreaksoonornow.

#Miningsoftware

(Backfrombreak)


Wecouldcontinueourdiscussiontomorrow,ifwewantto.Anyclosingremarks?Whatabout
problemswithBitcoinCore?Ihaveneverbeenaminer,soforminers,whathasbeenthe
biggestproblem?Whataretheissuesthatneedtogetfixed?

ForpeoplewhoareprogrammingBitcoin,weusethesoftware,andsometimeswedon'tlikea
problemandworkonittofixitandmakeitbetter.Somedevelopersaremining,butdefinitely
notatthescalethattheprofessionalminersaredoing.Whoinhereismining?Whohasever
mined?WhohassetupCoreinordertominewithsomeactualhardware?Doyouincludefailing
todothat?Ijustwantedtomakeapointthatitmaybesurprisinghowfewdevelopersare
settingupminersinthecurrentenvironment.Itfuckingsucks.Whatcouldwedotomakethis
better?

Therewasaperiodoftimewhendevelopmentwasactivelyignoringminingconsiderations.It
wassortofassumedthattheminingindustrywasbigcommerciallysuccessfulandthatitcould
takecareofitself.Asaresult,developerattentionwenttootherareas.Asaresultnow,Iamnot
happywiththestateofminingconfigurationinBitcoinCore.ButIamsurethatissues,likepool
operatorsandminersencounter,gobeyondjustconfigurationofmining,andusageofitis
probablydiffering.Iwouldlovetohearaboutanyissues.

Foraminer,hecanjustsetupaCoresoftwareinstance,andthenhecanstartmining.Butone
problemthatcannotberesolved[thatarises]istheorphanrate.

Hmm.Hm.Mm.Mmm.Okay.Isee.

Sothereareminingfarms.Theywanttosetupminingpools.Becauseoftheorphanrate,and
thestabilityissuesinthesystem,forcedthemtogiveuponthat.Sotheyhavetojoinmining
poolstomineblocks.

Whatstabilityissues?Besidesbeingapainintheass?

bitcoindhangupsometimes.

Whenwereyoudoingthis?

Maybeatleasttwoyearsago.

Thatmayhavebeen,forexample,HTTPconnectionerrors.RPCerrors.Sothesehavebeen
fixed.Wefixedthatparticularissuesincethen.

Ifyoucanimproveit,onethingis,it'sveryhardtosetorprioritizetransactionsandsetupour
ownmanualrulestoselecttransactions.Thetransactions(rules?)donotpersistifIrestart
bitcoind.Maybeabetterwaytocustomizetheoptionshere.Iwouldliketoseebitcoindconnect

tooutsidenetworkwithsametimeusingCorenetworkandalsoanothernetworkatthesame
time.

Youcandothat.Maybethereneedstobedocumentationaboutthis.

Ifyousetaproxy...?It'sonion.It'snotproxy,it'scalledonion.Thereareabunchofdifferent
options.Thebehavioryouwantispossible,butweneedbetterdocumentationtoexplainhow.
Betterdocumentationwouldbehelpfulforyouhere.

Itwillusethenormalnetworkfornormalconnection,andusethetorproxy.Toconnecttotor
nodesitwillusetor,andfornormalnodesitwillusethenormalnetwork.Iwanttohavemy
bitcoinnodesbehind,onlyconnecttosomeknowntrustednodes.

Hewantsconnectcombinedwithonion.Ah,itdoesn'tdothatrightnow,butitcouldbedone.
Hewantstoconnectalocalnode,butthenallother....Thismakeconnectionmuchmore
reliable.Youstillhaveaslowlink,butit'salink.

((Developersmumbleamongstthemselves.Solutionfound.Canfix.))

Therequesttopersisttransactions...prioritization?Persistthemempool,andtopersist
prioritization,andabetterprioritizationAPIingeneral.

Also,itwouldbebettertohavemoreproxysettingswhichonecouldbeabackupofanother
one.OurnodeshavetobesetupoutsideofChinaasaremoteserver.Wehavetosetuptwotor
proxiestomakethemmuchmorereliable.Withonlyoneproxy,ifonefails,theneverythingfails.

Yes,Ithinkwecandothat.Youneedtheabilitytoaddproxieswithoutrestarting?Doyouneed
theabilitytoaddproxieswithoutrestarting?Well,wewillsendyouanemailandgetyour
requirements.Ithinkthisshouldbenoproblemtodoeverythingyoujustaskedfor.

ThiswouldmakebitcoindmuchmorereliableandasreliableaspossiblewhilekeepingtheIP
secret.

Whenthenetworkinglibrarygetsmergeditwouldbegoodtohaveatoolthatanalyzesthe
networkconfigtomakesurewedonotincorrectlyconnecttotheincorrectnetworks.

In0.13,thereiscompactblocks,whichcanhelplowerorphanratessomewhat.Thishasbeen
deployedinFIBREnetworkforworldwideblockbroadcastandthiscanhelpreduceorphan
rate.Therewillalwaysbeanorphanrateinthenetworkbydesign,butwecanmakeitvery
small.Theproblemwewouldliketosolveistheonewhereyouhavetojoinabigpooltogetout
oforphaning.That'sanexamplewherebigpoolshaveanadvantageduetotheirsize.And
betterblockpropagationcouldreducethisadvantagethatbigpoolshave.Largerblocksthat

takelongertopropagatecontributetothisproblem,whichisaproblemforblocksizeincrease
proposals.

Thisispartofageneralprojectthatwewouldlikeminerstobemininglocallyoffofalocal
bitcoininstance.Sotheysaidtheyweretryingtodothat,butitdidn'tworkforthem.Theywere
talkingearlierthattheywanttoopensourcetheirpoolsoftwareforthispurpose.Ifyouseeany
hangupstothis,thenweneedtoknowaboutthosebugssothatwecanfixthose.Someofthe
torconfigurationthingscanbealleviated.

AtthetimeofSatoshi,everyonewasrunningtheirownbitcoinnodesontheirdesktop
computers...butnowonlyexchangesandmajorbusinesses,theyrunthissoftwareontheir
machines.BitcoinCoreisstillbasicallydesignedfordesktop.

Well,notreally.IthinkmostdevelopersrunBitcoinCoreinstanceswithouttheGUIandthis
makesWladimirsadoften.

Ithinkhemeanssmalldevices?

YoucanhaveseveralBitcoinCoreconfigurationsfordifferentpurposes.Likethedefault
dbcachesize.Numberofconnections.Ifthedbcachesizeistoolow,it'ssuperslow.The
default,until0.13,hasbeen100megabytes,andthat'sslow.Ithasn'tbeenlargerbecausewe
expectpeopletonotrunitondesktopsbecausedesktopshavelotsofRAM,buttoruniton
VPSwhereRAMismorelimited.

Therearemanythingswhereifitwasonlyrunningondesktops,wewouldhavemadechanges
andmadeitfaster.Butwehaven'tduetoconcernofrunningitonsmallVPSdevices((sorry,
browsercrashedwhiletyping)).

ThisisalongertermgoalofBitcoinCoretoprovidethebasicconsensuspart,through
libconsensus,sothatitiseasyforpeopletogoandwritefullnodepackageswhichare
completelycompatiblewiththerestofbitcoinbutalsohavedifferentAPIanddifferentfeature
setsandwrittenindifferentlanguages.Well,weareintheweedshere.Thisissomethingwe
hopetoworkonasdevelopers.

TheC++codeisdifficulttomaintainandit'sslow.It'sanimportantgoalforustohave,tohavea
consensuspackagethatwehavethatcouldbeusedbyanylanguage,andcouldbeusedfor
anyapplicationtheywanttointegratethatinto.Somaybebtcdcouldhavedifferentwalletson
differentnetworksandeverythingelse.Well,particularlyhewastalkingaboutminingpolicy,
whichIassumeisthekindofdevelopmentheisinterestedin.

Iamworkingonlibconsensusspecificallybecauseacustomeraskedmeto.Tohaveanode
moreeasytocustomizeinC#,that'sthesamereasonwhyweweretalkingaboutmaking
libconsensus.


Ithinkweonlyhave10minutesleft.Ifanyonewouldliketomakesomeclosingremarks,then
wecouldwrapuptoday'sdiscussions.Weshouldalsomentiontopicsthatwewouldliketotalk
abouttomorrowspecifically.

#SometopicideasforDay2

Fungibility
blockwitholdingattack
softforktopreventblockwithholdingattack
softforks
maybeweshoulddiscusslatestinnovationsinblockpropagation
howtocommunicatebetter
BitcoinCorecommunicationissuesregardingupdatesandprogress
lightningnetworkstuff
minerprofitabilityregardingsecondlayersolutions
blocksize,HKagreement,etc.
AsicBoostandpatents(andsoftforkprevention??)
Patentpools,patents,defensivepatentstrategy
regulatorypressuresonminersifany
regulatorypressuresandlegalconsiderationsfordevelopers
decentralizedvariancereduction
weakblocks
longtermminingprofitability(likewhenatransactionfeemightbecomehigherthanthe
defaultsubsidy)
newAPIsforbitcoindforwalletsandblockchainservices
overviewofsegwitandsegwitsecurityreview(re:theirquestionregardinghowdowe
knowitissecure)
thefutureoftransactionfees,walletfeeestimation
miningpolicyrulesandexpressionandloadingthatintoCore
getblocktemplateupgrades
bip9versionbitsstuff
weakblocks
replacebyfeethings

GoogleBustourwillrequireyoutosignyournameonthesheetofpaper.Whenisthetour?On
Mondayafternoonat3:30pm.

Mempoolsynchronization.Therewasarequestforhistoricalmempoolsnapshotsandthatdata
tobemadeavailable.MaybewewillaskChainalysis,doanyofusknowthem?

#Day2

FordevelopersIwouldliketorequestcoordinationusingIRCregardingallocationoftalktime.
Weneedexplicitpausesand"catchup"time.Transcriptionhasaslightdelayandprojectionhas
anadditional(internet)delay.Timemustbegivenforreply.

Goodmorning.Doeseveryonehaveawificonnection?Whodoesnothaveawificonnection?

((goingthroughlistoftopicsenumeratedonthepreviousday))

Theremightbetopicsthatpeoplearenotawareofthatdevelopersareworkingon,thingslike
segwitandotherscalingitems.

Whatabouttheminers?Wouldyouliketostartoutwithsometopics?Anyoneelse?

Developersmeetinpubliceveryweekwitheachotherontheinternet.Wetalkregularlywith
eachother.Itwouldbebettertohaveinputfromtheminersregardingwhattheyareinterested
intalkingabout.

Whataboutrequirementsforbitcoin?Weallwantbitcointosucceed.Wehaveinmindthings
thatwewant.ItwouldbegoodforuserstobeabletobuyASICs.Weoftendon'ttalkabouthow
thatwouldbedone.Wewouldlikemorepeopletobeabletousebitcoin,orforbitcoin
transactionfeestobelower,butchangingtheformatinacertainwayisnotarequirement.I
thinkthatifwecouldcollectalistofrequirements,thatwewouldbesurprisedhowmuchwe
mightagreeonthoserequirements.Itwouldbeagoodexercisetogothrough.

WhatdoyoumeanbybuyingASICs?

YoucangoandbuyabitmainS9onawebsite.Icouldputinacreditcard,andsometimelater
anS9willarrivebymail.Forexample,therearenotmanymanufacturersthatsellASICsina
formfactorthatworkinahouse.ThereusedtobeKNC,theydon'texistanymore.Theseguys
makeshippingcontainers.KNCisoutofthemarket.

Thehousingmarketisjustforreputation.

Itwaslikeworsetheimplementation.Doesn'tselltheminersbecauseinsidethesedangerous
highvoltageandit'snotpossibletocertifythemintheEUortheUS(forconsumeruse?).Ifyou
aremakingthemsmaller,thenyouarejustusingthetype,andthere'snoreasontosellit.So
youwouldbegoingforbankruptcy,youwouldnotbeabletomakeit.Itwasjustmaybewrong
decisiononourside.Itwouldbegoodtocreatetheproductwithoutthecertificationandsome

specificrequirements,theyjustsolvethetechnicalproblem,butitdoesn'tpassthecertification.
Andlately,itwasjustaquestionaboutsurvival.Thereisnotimetosplittheteamandthereis
theotherpercent.Rightnowthisissomeotherproblemwithcontainers.Butchips,thereisthe
keyIthink,theywillreleaseandtheywillbeavailable.IknowaboutcreatingUSBefficientstick,
willnotbesoefficientforthefunctions.

JusttheideaofarequirementisthatmanypeopleshouldhaveASICs.

Whatdoyoumean?YouwanttobuyASICoryouwanttobuyminers?

WhatIamsayingisthatitwouldbebetterifthereweremoremanufacturers.

Maybeweshouldreformulateit.Mininghosting?KeepingtheminerathomeIthinkmorefaris
willbemorecomplicatedtask.

WhatIthinkheistryingtosayisthatforthelongtermsurvivaloftheBitcoinsystem,wethink
thatitisimportantforparticipationinminingtobeverywidelydistributed.Andthat'ssortofa
requirement.Buthowwegetmoreminingmoredistributedisanopenquestion.

InthefutureperhapswewillhavebetterdistributionofASICsandminingamongusers.

Yesterdaywesawagraph,forallthecompanies,forminingcompaniesin2015from10
companiesthereare8is...sothe..becauseisgrowveryfast,thecombinationisveryvery
high.Sothenitcametostagnation,sooften,maybewewillseeotherplayers.

ThereisalsoAvalon3,right?Theygotboughtbysomebody?IcannottalkaboutthemIthink.

ThebiggerthingthathewastryingtoaskaboutisthatweallthinkaboutthingsthatBitcoin
needstoachieveinthefuture.ArequirementexampleisthatBitcoinminingiswidely
distributed.Anotherexamplerequirementisthatbitcoinshouldbeeasytouse.Perhapsanother
requirementwouldbe"bitcoinfeesshouldbeunderXthreshold".Itisoftenusefultothinkand
askaboutrequirements,andnottechnicalmechanisms,becausethereareoftenmultiple
technicalmechanismstoachieverequirements.Thereisalsooftenmoreagreementabout
requirementsthanthereisagreementaboutmechanisms.Soperhapsweshouldtalkabout
requirementsthatwefindinteresting.

Miningdatacenternotcentralized,wealreadydrawthemupandtriedtoshowhowmany
minersisdistributedbythe..ofthemap.IcouldalsomarkhisdatacenterbecauseIdidnot
haveanyinformation,theycouldreleasethemupanditwouldbegreatPRbecauseitwould
showthatminingisnotjustsomepoint,thereare60personslocatedinChinaforexample,and
it'sverydistributedandthestatisticscanshow,it'sgreatPR.

Multiplelocationsdoesnotdistributeit.It'sstillunderthesamecontrolofthesamecompanyor
government.

No,eventhedatacenters,whattheyweresayingyesterdaywasthat..theycannotjustmake
someattacksoeasily,theyperformmaintenanceandjusttocombineallthepower..soIthink
it'stechnicallyveryhardtoorganizelikethat.Inourcase,ahugepartof,toinvestors.It'snot
ourpower.Ithinkit'snotjustoneortwoinvestors,it'shundredsorthousands.It'sevenmore
thanthenumberofCoredevelopersalltogether.

Keepinmindthatifthedevelopersgoaway,nothinghappensinBitcoinCoredevelopmentfora
while.No,that'snotcorrect.Well,it'snotthesameasminingissueswhereimmediatelybitcoin
fails.Imeanthatnothinggoeswrongifdevelopersvanish.Thesoftwarekeepsworking,fora
while.Whereasifminingdisappears,bitcoinbreaksimmediately.

Ifsomeoneweretodoahiddenmodificationsomeonewouldntdiscoverit.

No,itsnotthateasy.It'sverydifficulttogetthingstopasspeerreview.IwouldsaythatIam
muchmoreworriedabout,andinparticularlybecauseifsomethinghappenstothedevelopers,
there'sabigpooloftalentintheCryptocommunity.Itwilltakeafewmonths.

Let'sjustagreethatbothourconcerns,thatwewantdecentralization.

Ifwewantbitcointobeasuccessin5years,whatcharacteristicsdowethinkithastohaveto
beasuccess?Perhapsminingshouldbereasonablydecentralized.Wecouldsay,itshould
supportmanyusers.Itshouldhavereasonablefees.Whichofthesedotheminersagreewith?
Whataretheyinterestedin?Doweseefungibilityasaprettyexistentialinterestingitem?Maybe
ifyousaymining,thatmightnotbearequirement,theactualrequirementisfungibilityperhaps.

Themainrequirementforbitcoinminingisthelowcostofelectricity.Alotofthoselowpower
costsarelocatedinremoteregions.Theyaredistributedaroundtheworld.Thatadvantageby
itselfprovesthedecentralizationmodel.

#Progressandorganizations

Ithinkweshouldtrytoshorttermplanandlongtermplan.Weshouldtrytoimproveourimage
toinvestors.Wecouldalsotalkabouttheimagepresentedtoinvestors.Alltheinternalbattles
andconflictshurtthatimage.ThereisnocentralizedPRfordevelopers.Thedevelopersare
actuallysomewhatopposedtocentralizedPR.Nobodyfromventureinvestors,theysaymany
times,theyarenotreallytechnical.Theyarenotfollowingtechnicalpresentations.Theywould

liketogetsomefinancialinformationaboutthestatusoftheproject.Itdoesnotyetexist.Maybe
weshouldhiresomepeopletorepresentBitcoincommunityinterest.

Irecognizethatsomeonementionedtheopinionsonthedecentralizationeffort.Iwouldliketo
maketwopoints.IthinkthattheR&Dinbitcoiniscurrentlyneedssomeimprovement.Ibelieve
thatit'salittleslowinpace.WeneedtoimproveandacceleratetheR&DeffortinBitcoin.The
secondpointisthatIwouldliketomakeis,couldwehavemultipleversionsofsoftwareand
multipleparallelR&DteamsgettinginvolvedinBitcoindevelopmenttoimproveitsR&D?For
example,inEthereum,theR&DeffortsareveryactiveandfundedbyEthereumFoundationand
wecouldlearnfromtheirexamplesanddrawlessonsfromandalsoimproveourownR&D
effort.

WhatisEthereumdoingthatwe'renot?Someconcreteexampleswouldbeuseful.

Iwouldliketoaskhowmanyinyourroomhassubmittedmorethan1000linesofcodeintothe
Bitcoinrepositoryinthelastyear.

LinesofCodeisnotagoodmeasureforprogressondevelopment.Itisdifficulttomeasurewhat
isprogress.Whataboutwhenpeoplereviewsourcecode?Howdoyoumeasurethat?What
doesitmeanwhethersomeonecontributesbylineversustimereviewingordesigning?Code
reviewcanbemuchmoreusefulthanwritingcode.

CanwegetatranslationregardingwhatEthereumFoundationhasbeendoingthatwehavenot
regardingR&D?Whatistheperceptionhere?

Okay,so.Hethinksthatbecause...theyhavemoreversionsofthesoftware,andalsotheprice
ofethereumalsoprovesthatithasmoreactivityintermsofR&Dandsystemimprovement.

Hispointisthatthereiscorrelationbetweenpriceandethereum'sR&Dactivity.

Well,bitcoin'spriceismuchhigher.

Bitcoin'scurrentrateofR&Dismuchhigherthanithaseverbeen.Wecouldusestatisticsto
showthisifwewouldlike.

IdefinitelyagreethattherearecommunicationproblemsintheBitcoinspace.Forexample,
talkingaboutwhatisgoingonindevelopment.Awarenessinthepublicisnotparticularlygood.
Weneedhelptofixthis.TheactuallevelofR&Dactivityishigh.SinceBitcoinCore0.12.1,
whichwasjustafewmonthsago,thediffsizebetweenthemasterbranchand0.12.1,is
184,000linesofpatchbetweenthem.Sothat'saconsiderableamountofdevelopmentactivity
thatisgoingon.Thisworkincludesmajorfeatures,includingfeatureswhichareimportanttothe
miningecosystem.Maybewedon'ttalkabouttheseimprovementsoftenenough?Perhapswe
donotspeakclearlyenoughaboutthesedevelopments?Weareoftentalkingtoother

developers.Fromadevelopmentperspective,ourfocusisondevelopmentactivity,makingsure
thingsarerunningsmoothly,butwedonotoftencommunicatetodrivethepriceforexample.
Wewouldliketodomore.

ThereisafairamountofhostilityintheBitcoinecosystem.Thiscreaturespressureagainstthe
developmentcommunitytospeakaboutprogress.Everytimethedevelopersspeak,thereisa
hornet'snestofnegativeresponses.Wegetalotofnegativity,evenfortalkingaboutforward
progress.Thisisverydemoralizing.Indevelopment,ourcultureisoftenthatwewouldpreferto
dogoodwork,andnotnecessarilypromoteourworkortalkaboutit.

Icountedthebitcoinrepositorylinesofcode.Ionlyfound120,000linesofC/C++codeincluding
emptylinesandheaderfiles.Wheredidyousee184,000linesofchange?Wherediditcome
from?

Itwasa"diff"(thedifference)betweentheolderversionsandnewversions.Itincludesboth
additionsanddeletions.Betweentwoversions,thereareaddedlinesanddeletedlines.This
addsupto184,000intotal.Someonecanworkfor1monthonanewfeaturetoreplaceanold
feature.Thiscanmean1,000linesofnewcode,and20,000linesofremovedcode.Thelineof
codemetricisnotagoodmeasureofR&Dqualityorprogress.Youcanseethisresultyourself
ingit,wecanshowyouhowtomeasurethisyoujusttype`gitdiffv0.12.1`after`gitcheckout
master`andyoucanseeforyourselfthedifferencesbetweenthemasterbranchandv0.12.1.

```
gitcheckouthttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin&&cdbitcoin
gitdiffv0.12.1|wcl
```

...moredetailscanbereadon<http://bitcoincore.org/>(or
<https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/v0.12.0...v0.13.0rc2>)

IwouldliketothankyouforyoureffortsonR&D.Youarethemaindevelopmentteaminthe
Bitcoinspace.Irecognizethatasyoujustmentionedthereisalotofnegativityandattackson
Coredevelopers.Fromtheoutsiderperspective,thiscontributestotheimagethatwearenot
unified.Wehavedivisionsamongourselvesbecauseofthis.Thisisinturncompromisingthe
developmentofBitcoin.Atthispoint,IamnotsurethattheCoredevelopmentteamisgoingto
improvetheirPReffort,orwhethertheywilldiginandburyyourselvesintotheworkandnottry
toimproveyourPR.

OneclarifyingremarkisthatsomedevelopersfeelthattheyshouldnotparticipateinPR(public
relations).

ItisverydifficultinaprojectlikethistogetPRbecauseoneofthereasonsisthat,....theyhave
massiveinvestment,theyhavemoneyavailabletomarketthemselvesandEthereum.InBitcoin

Core,wedonothavethisfunding.Allofusworkasvolunteers.Wedonothavefunding.Weare
notexpertsonmarketing.WearenotPRexperts.Isthereawaytoimprovethis?TheBitcoin
Foundationdidnotworkverywell.Weareopentoideas.Youhavetounderstandthatweare
developers.WearenotgoodatPR.Wearenotfunded.

Allofyouarevolunteers?Okay.

TheclaimthatBitcoin'screatorhasapremineisuntrue.Itshouldnotbecirculated.Thisclaimis
false.No,wedidnotsaythat.Wewerejokingaboutsomethingelse.Oh,okay.Yes.Inbitcoin
therewasnopremine.Inethereum,theypreminedandfundedtheirmarketingand
development.Wedon'thavethatinbitcoin.

Mybeliefisthatforsuchalargedevelopmenteffort,withoutfinancialresources,it'snotfeasible
tomoveforward.TheBitcoinFoundationfellnotbecausethemodelwaswrong,butfell
becauseofitspoormanagement.

Becausetheygotarrested.Onlytwoofthem.

Maybethebitcoincommunityneedstorethinkabouthowtofundthedevelopmenteffort.He
proposesthatmaybewecanfundanotherfoundationtoprovidefinancialresourcesto
developmenteffortstomakethingseasierforyouguys,tomakeitfeasibleandsustainablein
thelongrun.

..anditshouldinvolvethemajorplayersinthebitcoinspaceinthisfoundation.

BitcoinCorehasasponsorshipprograminplace.Wehaveworkedalittlebitonthat.Thereis
alsoanunfortunatebarrierofentryregardingeducationfordevelopers.Oneofmyprojectsis
usinglibconsensussuchthatpeoplewithlesstechnicalskillscanmaketheirownfullnode.
That'swhatI'mtryingtodorightnow.Ihopethatinthefuturetherewillbemoreworkthere.

Areyoudoingthatfulltimeorparttime?Parttime.

HebelievesthatfortheBitcoindevelopmenteffort,justrelyondonationsandsponsorshipand
alsoparttimework.Also,acoupleofhighlyskilleddevelopersisnotenough.It'snot
sustainableinthelongrun.

Aninterestingquestionforthepeopleintheroomhere,ofthedevelopers,whoisworkingon
bitcoinfulltime?

Wedefinitelyagreethatthereneedstobeamoresustainablemodel.Itcannotbejustone
approach.WeneedtodomultiplethingstomakeR&Dsustainable.Oneproblemthatwehave
hadinthepast,whichhasmadeourPReffortsmorewithheld,isthatwehavehadproblems
withinitiativestodopublicoutreach.Theseinitiativeshaveusedourworktotrytotakecontrol

ofBitcoin.TheyhaveusedourworktotrytoarguefortheirownauthorityoverBitcoin.Thiswas
thecasewithBitcoinFoundation.ThiswasabadexperienceformanyofusinBitcoinCore.The
BitcoinFoundationfailedandfailedtobesustainable.Butalso,BitcoinFoundationusedits
influenceinwaysthatwereharmfultolongtermsustainabilityofbitcoin.

AssomeonewhoworkedforBitcoinFoundation,IdidnotliketellingpeoplethatIwasemployed
byBF.Iwentoutofmywaytoavoidevenmentioningit,asadeveloper.EventhoughIwasfree
toworkoncodewithoutbeinginvolvedintheotherstufftheyweredoing.Theytriedtoexpress
controloverBitcoin[likeinasocialway].

Idon'tmeantosaythatBitcoinFoundationtookbadactions.However,manyoutsiders
perceivedittobeincontrolofBitcoin.Thatwasaproblem.Asanexample,Ethereum
FoundationisperceivedtobeincontrolofEthereum.ThiskindofcontroloverBitcoinmustnot
exist.Weneedsustainabilitywithoutcontrol,andweneedthiswithouttheperceptionofcontrol
too.Theperceptionofcontrolisalsoamajorproblem.BystatingthatEthereumisforking,a
statementmadebyEthereumFoundation,theywereabletosilencepeoplewhohad
disagreementswiththathardforkplan,throughsocialmeans.Also,seetherelatedButerin
effect.

Okay.Hefeelsthatthereasonwhyyoufeelthatsomeinitiativewouldtrytotakecontrolof
BitcoinandthroughBitcoinCoredevelopment.Whypeopleblameyouforthatisbecausethe
interestbeingrepresentedbyCoreisstillnarrow.(Somethingaboutnarrowbusinessinterest?)
Theinterestgroupyourepresentisstilltoonarrow.Thecommunityisnotbeingrepresented.I
thinkhemeansthatyouarenotrepresentingthemajority.Whatheisproposingisthatweneed
toformanotherfoundationthatcouldengagemostofthecompaniesinBitcoinindustrysothat
theycanallfundthatfoundationwhichintermswouldfundyou.

Somedeveloperscarelessaboutearningmoney,whichiswhywedonot[...].

ThefoundationmaynotbeabletorepresentmostoftheindustriesintheBitcoinspace.
Becausethosecompaniesandindustriesmighthavetheirownprivateinterest.Theymightbe
antagonistictoeachother,likeCoinbaseversusBlockstream,soitmaynotbeinclusiveitself.It
ishardtohaveonefoundationthatrepresentthemajorityofinterestsintheBitcoinspace
becauseoftheconflictofinterest.Howcouldyousetuponeorganizationthatcan....

Itisnotpossibletohaveoneorganizationthatrepresentseverybody.

Weshoulddowhatisrightasadeveloperwhodoesnotownacompany,Idonotliketheidea
ofcompaniescontrollingafoundation.

<https://bitcoincore.org/en/about/sponsorship/programme/>

Weneedtodesignasystemwherethereisnobodyincontrol.Thisisperhapsnotbest
representedbythecompaniesthatexisttoday.Businessinterestisimportant,aswell.

Let'sseparatetheissuesfirst.Let'snottalkabouttheformatoftheorganizationorthis
foundation.Let'sinsteadrevisitwhatIjustmentionedbefore.Mypointsarethat,first,forsucha
complexandlargescaledevelopmenteffort,youmusthavefinancialresources.Otherwise,you
cannotbesustainableinthelongterm.Youmusthavefulltimestaff.Youcannotbeparttime.
Thatisalsonotsustainable.Weneedtoinvolvemorepeople.Weneedmorethanafewsmart
developers.Basedonthese,wecantalkabouthowwecanformthatfoundationorsomeother
entity.Ijuststronglydisbelievethatthisamorphousandlooseorganizationcanreallysustainin
thelongrunintermsofthecomplexityoftheR&Deffort.

Ithinkwehavetodiscusswhethersuchanorganizationisnecessary.Andthenwecandiscuss
howtorunsuchanorganization,asalaterstep.

MypersonalexperiencefromtheLinuxindustryandespecially...Iagreethatwecannotrelyon
volunteersforsustainedprogress.Thetroublehereisthatwehaveseendangersofasingle
centralizedorganization.Sincethattime,ithasbeenconfusingtonothaveasinglecentralized
organization.However,sincethattime,wehavemademoreprogressthaninthepastfrom
contributionsofamixofcontributingorgs,someprivatecompanies,somenonprofit
organizations,haveworkedtogether,suchasthetwodevelopersworkingatMITDCI.Thereare
somechainengineersatChainCodeLabs,asanotherexample.Therearealsosomeengineers
atothercompanies.IhaveheardsomethingaboutaChinesecompanywantingtotrainan
engineertobecomeaCoredeveloper.(Thathasnotbeengoingsowell).Oh,Isee.Well,you
havetocontinuethatinvestment.Ittakesawhile.IhearthataJapanesecompanynowwants
tobeginthelongterminvestmenttoalsotrainCoreengineers.

And,thereisnocompanythatcontrolsLinux.Therearemanycompaniesthatcontribute
engineersfulltimetoworkontheupstreamopensourcedevelopmentprojectsthatLinuxrelies
on.LinuxFoundationismoreofacoordinator.LinuxFoundationdoesnotcontrolLinux.

Sure,Icanexplain.Linuxhasmanycompanies.ThereareanumberofotherLinuxvendorsin
additiontoRedHat.ThereisIntel,AMD,ARM,andmany100sofothercompaniesintheLinux
softwareecosystemorinthesystemintegrationcompanieslikeIBM,HP,therearemanyof
thesecompaniesallovertheworldandtheyalldecidedovertimetodevotefulltimeengineers
totheupstreamdevelopmentprojectsoftheLinuxkernelprojectandthemanyotherthousands
ofpiecesofsoftwarethatareusedintheLinuxstack.

ThereisreallynoonecompanyincontrolofLinux.AndLinuxFoundationservesasa
coordinatingfunctionfortheLinuxsoftwaredevelopmentcommunity.Itisalittleconfusing
there.TosimplifyhowpeopleunderstandLinux,itissometimesdescribedastheLinux
FoundationmakingdecisionsbutIthinkthatthewaythatthingsactuallyworkinLinuxisthat

theLinuxengineersmakedecisionsbaseduponpeerreview.Theywon'tletalargemoneyed
interesttooverridewhattheythinkisasound,technicaldecision.

OnethingIwouldaddisthattheLinuxFoundationhashelpedotheropensourceindustriesto
bettercoordinate.TheLinuxFoundationhasofferedtohelpasaneutralprocessfacilitating
functionregardingBitcoin.Theytheoreticallydonothaveanyoneinsidethatcareseitherway
aboutBitcoin.Itisanoptiontoaskthemforhelp.However,Idon'tknowifitistheright
approach.

IthinkLinuxisagoodopensourceexample.LinuxFoundationhelpsLinuxtodoPRand
engineersfocusondevelopmentdirection.IthinkBitcoindevelopingcantakeexamplefrom
Linux.Myfirstrequest,Iwanttomodifymyrequest.Wheredoessuchorganization,many
organization,whetheritisnecessaryforBitcoin.

Okay.IthinkLinuxhassetagoodexample.TheLinuxFoundationhas,theyworkonthePRfor
Linuxandtheengineersarejustsettingtherulesforthesystemdevelopment.Basedonthat,I
wouldliketomodifymyfirstproposal.CanwelearnfromtheLinuxexampleandmaybewecan
followtheLinuxexampleandsetuponeormultiplefoundationsforBitcoinsuchasforLinuxlike
Fedora,Redhatandeachonehastheirownfoundation.Isthattrue?

Thatisnotexactlyhowitworks.

Iwouldliketoaddthat,Ipersonallyseepotentialforprocessfacilitationandcommunicationsas
earlyrolesthatareeasiertoagreeupon.

OnethingtosayperhapsisthatthereisaperceptionthatthereisnoBitcoinFoundationlike
thatisguidingbitcoin.However,therearemanydifferentorganizationsthataresupporting,in
limitedcapacities,differentpartsofBitcoin.MITDCIispayingforanumberofdevelopersto
workonCoreonafulltimebasis.Theyarerunningclasses.Theyhavebeenorganizingevents
thathelptopromotebitcoin.Theyaresupportingonlythreedevelopers,right?Yes,butthere
areothersbeingsupportedbyotherorganizations.Bitmainiscurrentlypayingforoneofthe
currentdevelopers.BlockstreampaysPietertoworkonBitcoinfulltime.CiphrexpaysEricto
workonBitcoinCore.Thereareotherorganizationsthataredoingpoliticallobbying(likeCoin
CenterintheU.S.forpoliticalchanges).

Itisafact,though,thatfromthepointoftalkingaboutthetechnologicalworkthatwearedoing,
thatthecommunityisfailingtocommunicatethisadequately.Wehadthisdiscussionearlier
todayaboutcomparingtoEthereum.Therewassomelaughterfromthedevelopersideearlier
duringthatdiscussionwhensomeonemadeacomparisontoEthereum.Itwasnotmeanttobe
insultinglaughter.Rather,wefeelthatwedoalotofdevworkcomparedtoEthereum.Sincea
fewminutesago,Ilookedatthedata.Ifoundthattherewere3xmorecommitstoBitcoinCore
overthosetogoethereum.(thenumbersare27contributorstogoethereumvs96toCore
and1294tocorecommitsvs490togoethereumsincejanuaryfirst)Therewasevenmore

developersforBitcoinCorenotEthereuminthiscase.Wecouldbedoingmoreworkto
communicatethismorewidely.Thereismoreworktobedonetocommunicatetothepublic
aboutthis.Perhapstherearesomeadditionalneedsfororganizationaleffortsaroundthat?But
weneedtokeepinmindthatwehavehadveryspecificproblemsinthepastwiththese
organizationalefforts,suchastheearlierstoriesaboutBitcoinFoundationthatwehave
explained.[Anddespitethelackoffunding,wearestillmoreproductivethanEthereum
Foundation.]

IfethereumiswritteninGo,isitahigherlevellanguageanddoGocommitscompareto
C++commitsdirectly?

Canwetakeabreak?Yes.

Frommyperspective,wetry,wethedevelopmentcommunity,wearesuccessfulifyounever
hearaboutus.However,thisisnotalwaysthemostusefulperspective.Weagree.Therecould
besomeorganizationaleffortstopromoteBitcointechnologycouldhelpalot.

Iamcuriousabouttheminersintheroom,whomineEthereum,howmanydifferentclient
implementationsdoyouuse?Justone.

Lunchwillbesetupoutsidethisroom.Wewillcontinuetohavethemeetinginhere.

Apparently,Ethereumliterallyhasmoremarketingemployeesthandevelopers.Thereare
literallymorepeopleworkingforEthereumFoundationwiththeroleofmarketing,thanthereare
employeesthatdodevelopment.Thisissurprising,butitalsoexplainsalot.Bitcoinhas3xmore
engineers,hasmuchmorevalue,muchmorecode,andhasapproximatelyzeromarketing.
Therehasbeensomeimprovement,perhaps.

Somethingelseaboutmarketing.Sothediscussionaboutsettingupanewfoundation.Tome,it
soundedlikeoneoftheintentswouldbetohavesomeBitcoinmarketing.Maybefrom
companies.OneoftheproblemsintheBitcoinecosystemisthatsomecompaniesaresaying
negativethingsaboutBitcoin.Theyareantisellingbitcoin.Theyaresayingnegativethings
aboutBitcoinornegativethingsabouteachother.InEthereum,theyfightonlyinprivate.
However,themarketingpeoplestillcontinuetosaypositivethingsinEthereum,evenwhilethe
hardforkwasfailing.Itwasverypositivemarketing.WeallwantBitcointosucceed.Howabout
amarketingalliancethatadvertisesandsayspositivethingstopeoplewhowouldbuyBitcoinor
whowouldbuyminersorbuyservicesfromeveryone'scompanies?Whyarewenotdoingthis?

Whynotastandardizedfoundationinthatsense?Ifyouareproposingamarketingalliance,
whynotuseafoundationwhichcouldhaveatemplateformatwecoulduse?It'smore
expedient.

Wearenotgoodatmarketing.


Thosearesuchverydifferentgoals.Tomixthetwowithonetypeoforganization,iswhatwe're
afraidof.WedonotwantthistohaveperceptionofcontroloverBitcoin.Thistendstocreatethe
perceptionofcontrol,andcontrollingthenarrativeandthewaythatpeoplestarttolookatit.The
previousproposalforamarketingallianceveryspecificallydidnotincludedevelopment.

Nocontrol,likeaLinuxFoundation?

Whatisneededisnotsomuchcontrolofdevelopment,butratherprocessfacilitationbetween
thestakeholdersintheindustryandcommunity,suchasformarketingpurposesandadvertising
purposes.WhenIsayprocessfacilitation,itcouldbetobettercoordinatemarketing,butitcould
alsohelptobettercoordinateaverycommonproblemisthatpeoplearenottalkingtoeach
other.Thereareverysimpleproblemsthatforexample,minersorexchangescouldhave
solved,iftheywouldhaveasked(requested)thedevelopersforhelp.Historically,thatrequest
hasnothappened.Thiswouldbesolvedbyprocessfacilitation.[Regular,scheduledcontact
andcommunication.]

Whatdoesfacilitationmean?Oneexampleoffacilitationisregularlyscheduledoneonone
meetingsbetweenindustrymemberswhoevertheymaybe.Somestakeholdersdon'tnaturally
communicatewithotherstakeholders,andperhapshavinganintermediaryorothercoordinating
rolescouldhelp.Whenyoudon'thavethis,allkindsofassumptionshappen,oftenthese
assumptionsareincorrect.Formostdeveloperscommunicationisnotanaturalskill.Having
otherstofillthisroleandfillupcalendarswithscheduledmeetingswouldbeprofoundlyhelpful.
Havingotherstobeavailabletoworkontheseproblems,tohelpassembleabigpictureview,
sotoknowwhotoconnecttoonagivenissue.Developersarenotnaturallygoingtoputthose
ontheircalendarswithoutbeingrequested.Youcannotrelyonvolunteersforthissortofeffort
tobeasustainedbenefittotheecosystem.Instead,thereshouldbepeoplewhoarepaidto
havetheseroles.SowhenIsuggestanorgthatisonlyprocessfacilitationandmaybealsoa
marketingalliance,thisiswhatImeanby"facilitation"andwhatIthinkaboutingeneral.

Myquestionis,firstIsaythatfacilitationisanimportantroleandtomakeitsustainableithasto
besomeonedoingitfulltime.Isthereoneormorepeoplethateveryonecanagreecoulddo
thiswithneutralitybecausetheydonotworkatanycompany?

TherearecompaniesinBitcoinwhoaremoreeffectiveatmarketing.BTCCdoessome
marketing.Blockchain.infodidapromotionalvideo.IthinkIhaveseenvideosfromother
companies.Maybethecompaniesthataregoodatthat,couldformanallianceformarketing
andpersuadeothercompaniestojoin.Probablythosecompaniescouldgetsomehelpin
providingtechnicalprogressreportsthattheycouldmake.TheycouldsimplifytheBitcoinCore
meetingnotes.TherewasareleaseofacandidateforBitcoinCorereleaseyesterday,butithas
notreachedmassvisibility,perhapsithasnotevenreachedvisibilitytopeopleinthisroom.This
wouldbeagoodexampleofataskforsuchamarketingalliancetofocuson.

WhohereissubscribedtotheBitcoinCoremailinglist?

Woulditbehelpfulifwepublishmailinglistsummariesperiodically?Weneedaplacetotalk
whereitisinourlanguage.Butperhapssummariescouldbemoretargetedtoageneral
audience?Maybeadigest?

Yourweeklyreleasefordevelopers,it'snotforcommonpeopletoread.It'snotfornontechnical
peopletoread.That'swhytheyhopeyoucanmakethemmoretransparent.

Wecandefinitelymakecommunicationsmoredirectedtoageneralaudience.Thatfeedbackis
veryuseful,sothankyouforsharingthat.

Iwantedtosharemyperspectiveasadeveloperofanalternativeclient.Onethingabout"we
needmorebitcoindevelopers".It'sactuallyanarduousprocesstogetuptothelevelwherea
developercancontribute(nottobitcoincore,butto_bitcoin_).Ihavedonethisrecentlymyself
asadeveloper.Inbtcd,it'sfundedbyacompanycalledCompanyZero,andwehavemuchless
developersthanBitcoinCore.TheintersectionofdevelopersthatknowbitcoinandGois
smallerthanC/C++.WehavebeenworkingtocatchupwithBitcoinCorewithsoftforks,but
btcdisbehindatthemomentonthesoftforks.Ithinkbitcoindevelopmentisgoingquickly.We
havebeenworkingonBIPS68,112,113,9,allthesegwitBIPS.TheCSVpackage
(68/112/113)haspullrequestsoutstanding.Theyarependingreview(btcdisbehindon
BIP9/68/112/..Buthassegwitinprogress).Wedon'thaveenoughreviewers.Therearemaybe
5activedevelopersforbtcd.It'sadifferentskillset.Ithinkthebtcdcodebase,andits
subpackagesisitselfabiginvestmentintermsofbitcoininfrastructure,theyaregoodlibraries,
andLightningdevelopmentisenabledbybtcdandinfrastructureinvestmentthere.Maybebtcd
itselfdoesnotdoenoughmarketingforitself.It'salittlelessknownthanBitcoinCoreinthat
respect.However,ifpeoplewanttocontribute,theycouldgetintothedevelopmentteam.

Ihavebeentestingsegwitforthepast4or5months.Wehavetestedonsegnet,testnet,we
havemadelightningchannels,Onedevelopermadethefirstlightningchannelsonbothsegnet
andtestnet.Thepullrequests(segwit,csvpackage)themselveshavenotreceivedasmuch
review,butwevebeentestingitforthelastsixmonthsorso.Hemadethebigblocksonsegnet
andtestnettomakesurethatwecouldverifythemproperly.I'llslowdown.

Howbigwasthesegnetbigblock?Itwasabout3.6megabytes.Wehadacompetitionbetween
ourselves.Wewrotegoodspammingtools.

TheotherthingisthatIthinkonethingthatisneededamongstotherdevelopmentteamsfor
Bitcoinisthatcollaborationisrequired.TherecentsegwitBIPshavehelpedwiththis.It'sgood
tohavemultipleeyesreviewingtheBIPsthemselves.Usimplementingthelargechanges,we
foundsomethingsaboutsegwit,andwegavefeedbacktotheotherdevelopers.Wemadea
transactiononsegnetthathad19,000inputstotesthowwellthesighashfunctionworks.Before
that,ittookabout29secondsforBitcoinCoretovalidatethat.Weimplementedsighash

midstatecachinginbtcdandthenittook3millisecondsorsomething.CorehasaPRto
implementhashcachingalso,andasaresultofourtestinghassomegreatexamplesto
benchmarkagainst.

Thiswasanexampleofhowotherimplementationscanhelpbecausebtcdusedadifferent
approachtoimplementingtheBitcoinprotocol.Fromthis,wewereabletoseethattheywere
compatiblewithsegregatedwitness,andshowedsomecornercases.Thiswashelpfulandvery
useful.Thisworkwasgoodandwe'rethankfulthattheydidthisworkonsegregatedwitness.

MaybeIwillmakeacoupleofcommentshere.Ithinkthat,Iamnotagainstcreatingaseparate
teamfordevelopingtheproject.Ifwehavemultipleteams,thencoordinationbetweenteams
takesalotoftimeandcostandresources.Youcannotgotowarwith10battalionsandno
generaltolead.Developingtheproduct,youalwaysshouldhaveageneralarchitectureanda
generalengineer.IntheBitcoinnetwork,it'smoreaboutthestandard,it'sacommunication
standard.Youcannotcreatetendifferentsoftwareprojectsbecausetheywillnotbeableto
communicate.

Whatgooddoyouseecomingfromhavingmultipleimplementations?

Fromtheperspectiveoftheventureinvestors,itwillbeverycomplextoexplainwhatyouare
doingandhowyouaredoingit.IfitwouldbeabattlebetweenCoreandotherimplementations,
itwoulddecreasethetrustinBitcoin,decreasethemarketpriceofBitcoin,anditdoesnothelp
makeR&Dgofaster.Ifsomeonethinksthattheycanmakeanewsplitfromscratch,thenthey
shouldnameitsomethingelselikeanaltcoin.Ithinkthatitismuchmuchbetterifwecreatea
teamlikeLightningwherewecaninspirethebitcoincoreteamandthencoordinationbetween
differentteamswillincreaseproductivityoverall.Theycaninternallydiscusstheideaandagree,
andiftheyallinternallyagreethenitwouldbehelpfulandefficientandstable,thenitcanbe
mergedbackintoBitcoin.ForBitcoinCore,Ithinkitwouldalsobehelpfultoaddmoreefficient
developersandmoreleadersandsupporttheminamoretransparentway.Rightnow,even
thansomecompaniesarepayingforsomedevelopers.Okay.Rightnowthat'snottheissue,but
theremightbelatelyalotofquestions,itshouldbereallytransparent,likeonecentralpoint,I
don'tknow,onewhateveryoucallit,itshouldbetransparentandlikeabusinessyoudonate
yourmoneyandthismoneysupportsdevelopers[liketheBitcoinCoresponsorshipprogram?].
That'sit.

Thankyoufortherecap.Lunchissetupoutside.

Developmentissomewhathamperedwhenyouincreasethenumberofimplementations.
Developmentcanalsobehamperedbyhavingmultipleimplementations.Ittakesmore
coordinationandmoreefforttohavedevelopersreviewingmultipleimplementationsof
consensusrelatedsoftware.ItisenoughworktodoitinBitcoinCore.Ifyouareaskingfor
multipleimplementations,thenthisrequestisincompatiblewithhavingfasterandmoreR&D
becauseitdividesourefforts,ourtimeandattention,andweakensourabilitytomakeR&D

progress.EthereumFoundationmightseemlikeafastmoveronR&Dbutthatisperhapsdueto
themisperceptiongeneratedbytheirmarketingefforts.Theyhavemoremarketingemployees
thandeveloperemployees."Let'ssplityourengineerson3differentprojectssothatwego
faster"isnonsensicalbecausesoftwareengineeringdoesnotworklikethat.Perhapswearenot
understandingwhattheothersideissaying.

(Notethatthiswasfromlunchchitchat,thefollowingwasnotdiscussedasagroup.)

WhatdotheminersseeasthefutureofBitcoininthelongterm?Whatistheirtakeonthis?
Yesterdaythereweretwoanswers,butwewouldliketohearmorefromtheminers.

Canwepleasealsogetanassessmentfrombothsidesregardingthelevelofmisunderstanding
thattheythinkiscontinuingtooccurheretoday?Thiswouldbevaluablefeedback.

Walletsshouldprobablyshowthemovingwindowaverageofnumberofzeroesappearingin
blockhashes.Thiswouldbeusefulforimprovingknowledgeaboutcurrentdifficulty.However,
consumersmightgetconcernedwhenthatnumberdoes(ordoesnot)change.

Theshortterminterestthatsomehaveregardingbitcoinmarketpricewouldbetocrankblock
sizetoinfinityandpumptheprice.Butwhataboutthelongterminterestinbitcoin?Whatisthe
longtermvalueofbitcoin?Whyisbitcoinvaluableinthefirstplace?Whatisitaboutbitcointhat
isdifferentfromotherproducts?Theconcernthatsomedevelopershave,regarding
constructinganorganizationexclusivelydevotedtoPRandmarketing,isthatcontrolcan
unintentionallydegradethevalueofBitcoinevenifweeachindividuallyhavegoodintentions
goingintosuchaneffort,becauseofhowcontraryitistotheethosofBitcoin,decentralization
andfungibility.Coredevelopersdon'thaveawaytodesignthistypeoforganization,while
preventingthenegativeoutcomesthatareobviouslyapplicable,andforthisreasonwehavenot
madeaproposalforthistypeoforganization.

#Blocksizeandhardforks

Wehadagooddiscussioninthemorningonanumberoftopics.Intheafternoon,theminers
wouldliketoshiftthediscussiontoblocksizescaling.

IthinkthatwecanstartbytalkingabouttheHongKongagreement.Iknowthatitisnotan
agreementwithBitcoinCore.IknowthatBitcoinCorecannotsignanagreement.Iknowthatit
wasindividualsthatsigned.WeknowthatthereisadisagreementevenwithinBitcoinCore
whethertoscaletheblocksize,howmuch,howlarge,howtodoit,whethertodoit.Those
individualspromisedtoproposeahardforkproposaltotheCorecommunityforreviewing.

Witheveryonejoiningforces,itisgoodformarketing,itisgoodfortheeconomy,butatthistime
wefeel...withthepromiseofthoseindividuals...severaltodayarejoiningushereaswell.I
alsorecognizethatwewillhavetospendresourcesforyouguysmaybeyouhavesalariesand
meanslotsofbudgetand...some...forum.Ithinkit'skindofapromise.Maybeyouarenot
representingCore,andweunderstandthat.Butfromyourpersonalpromise,Ithinkthisisa
promisethatyouguysneedtofulfill.Theremightbesomedelay,butIthinkweshouldtalk
franklytoseewhat'sgoingonhere.

Keepinmindthatwedohavesegwit,whichisablocksizeincrease.Weneedtogogetsegwit
outandimplemented.Afterthat,theHongKongagreementwhatitwas,wasachangeinhow
segwit'sblocksizeincreasewouldbeallocated.

Let'sanswerthequestion.Letmekeepgoing.

Ithinkthatrightnow,IthinkthebiggestconcernisthatEthereumhasshownthatthisislooking
alotmorerisky.WhenwemetinNewYork,wetalkedalotabouthowwewouldgetconsensus
andshowconsensus.TheminerswerenotinNewYork.Iamnotsureifpeopleareaware
aboutthis.

ManyoftheHKagreementsignersspentaweekinNY.Wedidalotofdesignwork.Wetalked
abouthowtoproperlyconstructahardfork.Wetalkedabouthowwewoulddothisinaway
wherewewouldnothavethesamerisksthatEthereumhasrecentlyexperienced.Wetalked
aboutinHKhowitisimportantforBitcointoremainunifiedandhowitisimportanttothe
longtermvalueofBitcoin.InHK,andinNY,there'snodesiretodoanythingthatwouldbe
controversial.Wewouldneedconsensusaroundanykindofhardforkthatwouldhappen.It
wouldhavetobeincrediblynoncontroversial.Whileit'scertainlythecasethatalotofthat
researchandmanyofthosediscussionsshouldbemademorebroadlyavailable,there's
certainlyalotofconcernnowthatevenfrompeopleoutsidethisroomthatitwouldbevery
difficulttogetthatlevelofconsensusaroundahardfork.Whileproposingahardforkisone
thing,whichIthinkshouldstillhappen,oratleastproposingsomedetailsabouthowahardfork
shouldlook,whichIthinkshouldstillhappen,asofthelastweekIdonotthinkwewouldbeable
togetthekindofconsensusweneed,suchasfromBitpayandtheirinvestors,whosawwhat
happenedwithEthereumClassic,togetthelevelofconsensusrequiredforBitcoinCoreorfor
Bitcointohaveahardforkthatdoesnotresultinasignificantlossofvalue.

Ithinkit'sworthmentioningtoothat,amajorityof,wewereheavilydisagreeinginNYamongst
ourselvesevenintheNewYorkofficehowsomethingmightbedeployed.Muchofthatwasdue
totalkofsignaling.Sincethen,wehavetalkedaboutseveralassumptions.Oneassumptionthat
someoneoriginallyproposedwasthat"nobodywouldfollowaminoritychain"or"nobodywould
attackanotherchain".Therewerediscussionsaboutthosedifferentscenarios.Ithasbeen
enlighteninginthelastfewweekstoseethatsomeofthosethingsareinfactverypossibleand
aremoreconcerningthanwethoughtbefore.It'ssomethingthatrequiresthought.Itprovidesa
newdatapoint.ItrequiressomenewanalysisIthink.


Iwantedtopointoutthathardforksareverydisruptivetomarkets.Theyaredisruptiveto
merchants,tomarkets,toentireecosystems.Wehavetotakethisintoaccount.Unlessthereis
anoverwhelminglystronglyjustifiedreasontodoahardfork,thenthecostsoutweighthe
benefits.WehavebeenlookingatwaystosolvetheseproblemsinBitcoinwithouthavinga
hardfork.Thishasbeenahugefocusofourengineeringworkoverthelastseveralyears.We
havebeenworkingonwaystomakeeveryonehappyintheecosystem[althoughwearenot
maximizinghappiness].

Also,yesIhavebeenwritingcodeforthehardfork.It'snotreadyatthemomentbutIdowant
youtoknowthatIhavebeenhonoringthatcommitmentandhavebeenwritingcodetowards
that.

<https://github.com/lukejr/bips/blob/bipmmhf/bipmmhf.mediawiki>

<https://github.com/lukejr/bitcoin/compare/bc94b87...lukejr:hardfork2016>

Regardlessofwhetherwehavereachedabroadconsensusonahardfork,basedontherecent
Ethereumhardforkexperience,aBitcoinhardforkwouldinevitablytakeplace.Atsomepointin
thefuture,it'sboundtohappen.Basedontheethereumhardforkandexperience,theybelieve
thatthehardforkforsplittingBitcoinisinevitablyboundtohappen.

Onlyifwetrytomakeithappen.AlreadyhappenedwithClams,right?Acontroversial,
disharmonioushardforkdoesnotneedtohappen.

Thisdivergenceinopinioniskindofhardwiredintohumannature,evenamongstthissmall
groupwehavedivergenceinopinionnottomentionthebroadercommunity.Becauseofthis
divergenceofopinion,it'sgoingtosplitthepublicintoliketwoormoremultipleusergroupsand
opinioncampsandideologyofhowbitcoinshouldbeimplemented.SomemaybelongtoCore
andsomemaynothaveadevelopmentteam.Thatmightbehardwiredintohumannatureand
politics.

Okay.Eventhoughtheremaynotbesuchadevelopmentteamatthispoint,becausepeople
aredrivenbyinterestandthisdrivemightcompelorinviteanotherdevelopmentteamtojumpin
anddothiskindofwork.

Tooffsetthistrend,it'snecessaryforustoincreasetheuserbase.AndifwetreatBitcoinasa
reservecurrency,thenthepossibilityforittosplitishigh.Butifwetreatitasapaymentnetwork,
thenpeopleareunwillingtoletitsplitbecauseyouwouldincreasetheusability.

Whenyousaypaymentnetwork,whatdoesthatmeanin5yearsor10years?

Ifwetreatbitcoinasapaymentmethod,thenwehavetosupportnewtechdevelopmentsuch
asLIghtningNetworkandabiggerblocksizetosupportthatfunctionality.Basedonthislogic,
allofoureffortistodefendourselvesagainstsuchahardforkeffortthatmayoccurinthe
future.Inordertodefendapotentialhardforkinthefuture,weneedtoprovidesomekindof
forumorunifiedbasissothatdifferentvoicesintheBitcoincommunitycanhaveaplatformto
communicatewitheachotherandresolvetheirdifferencesandreachconsensusandtoprotect
ourselvesagainstsuchamalicioushardforkinthefuture.

Itsnotthateasytogeteveryonetogethertocommunicateanddiscuss.

Itsnotthatitshard,itsthatyoudidnotdoit.(ScalingBitcoinconferences?)

Iagree.IthinkweneedtoworktomakesurethatBitcoinisbothasystemforpaymentsanda
reservecurrency.Asasystemforpaymentsalone,paymentsdonothavestickylongterm
value.You(thecustomer)buycoinstopay,thenyoupaytopurchasesomeitem,thenyou(the
merchant)sellcoins.Thisdoesnotresultinlongtermpreservationofvalue.Also,tobeagood
paymentnetwork,Bitcoinmusthavetechlikelightningbecausenoreasonableamountofblock
sizewouldmakeBitcoinlargeenoughtoscaletothepaymentneedsoftheworld(like1million
transactions/second).WemustpreservethelongtermvalueofBitcoinwhilegrowingtheuser
base.WeneedtofindasawayasacommunityofBitcoinuserstocometostrongagreements
inordertodefendagainstmalicioushardforksthatwoulddamageBitcoin'slongtermvalue.

ThefirstlinkistheBIPdraft.ThesecondlinkissomeofthecodetoimplementthatBIP.Thisis
relatedtothehardforkcommitment.

Iwouldliketoapologizetoyou,andtothedevelopers,forunderminingtheireffortstoproduce
thismaterialforyouregardingtheircommitments.IdidsobecausetheireffortsinNewYork
camerightaftersomepubliccommentsaboutblockingsegwitregardingahardfork.Inthat
environment,Ifeltveryuncomfortableabouthardforkproposalsslowingthescalingofbitcoin
throughsegwit.Iregrettheclimatethatmycommentscreated.Iamsorryforthatandformy
comments.

IthinkIneedtoclarifythis.Segwitblockalsocomefromthe...thattheHKagreementwouldnot
berespected.It'saverybadspiralthatwehavegotinto,intermsofbadcommunication.Maybe
bothpartiesdon'twanttodosomethingunderpressure.Maybebothpartiesdon'twanttobe
threatening.

OneproblemIdidhavewasthatalotofpeopleintheBitcoincommunitytoldmethatthey
wouldneverwanttohardfork.Sodespitemyagreementwithyou,Ihadotherstellingmethey
wereconcernedaboutacloseddoormeeting.Iwashearingthatalot.

AftertheHKagreement,bothpartieswereunhappy.Thebigblockerswantreallybigblocks.2
MBwouldnevermakethemhappy.Theywerenothappy.Anditwasabadagreementforthem.

Andforthosewhowanttocontrolblocksizegrowth,they....andIthinkatthemeetingweboth
agreedthatweshouldtrytoconvinceotherpeoplethatthisiskindofabestcompromise.

Therearealotofpeoplethatdon'twantahardforkatall.It'sahardfork.Everyonehasto
agreetoahardfork.It'sdifficult.

Dopeoplenotwantit?Orrather,dotheynotwantitnow?Peoplehavesaid"oh,theynever
wantahardfork".

Oh,that'snottrue[ofmybeliefs]atall.Thenegativediscussionabouthardforksmakesfuture
hardforksharder.Thatfrightensme.Thesystemwillneedhardforksinthefuture.Butthey
needtobeharmonioushardforks.Peoplefightingagainsthardforksmakesthislesslikely.I
thinkthatwewillneedhardforksinthefuture.Ihopetherewillbehardforksinthefuture.

TheHKagreementdidnothappenthewayIwouldhaveliked,butithappenedanyway.Itwould
bebettertohaveabetterwaytocometoagreementabouthowhardforkshappen.Itwouldbe
goodtohavelotsofcommunityvoicescomingtogether.Hopefullywecansetaprecedent
regardingwhatistherightwaytodoahardfork.

Oneobservationhereisthatitsoundslikewecouldhaveavoidedmuchdrama.WhenIheard
aboutthe"let'sblocksegwit"statement,ifIhadreachedouttoyoudirectlyandclarifiedin
private,itsoundslikethiscouldhaveavoidedproblemsandimprovedBitcoin'spublicimage.I
thinktherearemanyopportunitiesforusastheBitcoinindustrytotrytosettleourdisputes
oneonone.ThismayimproveBitcoin'spublicimageaswellandbemoreproductiveforallof
us.

Maybesomeonecoulddescribethe,liketheMMHFhardfork.Andsomeoneelsehadsome
BIPsaboutthat.WhatareintheseBIPs?Whatisthestructure?

IthinkalotoftheoppositionIwasgettingwasregardingacloseddooragreement.Theywanted
ittobesomethingthatdevelopsorganically.

IthinkthatifIcanexpandonthat,thereisapoliticalchallengewhereifsomeoneexternalto
Bitcointriestoenforceahardforkonbitcoin,thenitmustberejectedforbitcoin'slongterm
survival.Whenwearetalkingaboutdesigningahardfork,wemustmakeitcleartothe
communitythatthedesireforthehardforkisorganicfromtheBitcoinspace.Ithinkthatwhathe
foundwasthatthestructureoftheHKagreementunderminedthatunderstanding.Perhapsthat
couldbeovercomebygettingmoresupportforit,butstillitissomethingtokeepinmindforhow
wehandleharmonioushardforksinthefuture.

Ithinkthatpeoplebelievethatcommunicationshouldbeopen.NobodynoticedthatBIPdraft.
Therewasnoplacetopublishthingslikethat.Therewasnoblogpostaboutit,oratweetedlink
orsomething,tothedraft.Anyway,pleasedescribewhatitdoes.


IhadsummarizedsomeoftheideaswehaddiscussedinZurich.Ithinkwefirstneedtoknow,it
seemslikethere'ssomediscrepancyevenbetweenafewpeople,regardingthe...maybehe
couldexplainhisBIPdraft.

Ifyouscrolldowntothespecificationsectionwellbasically,don'treadthedocument.What
featuresdoesithaveinit?Prettymuchmostofitismakingthehardforksafe.Howdoesit
makeitsafe?Thesimplestpossiblehardforkwouldbeonewhereoldnodescontinueonthe
oldchainandnotfollowthehardfork.Ifpeopledidnotupgrade,thenthenodeswouldgetstuck
andthechainwouldbevulnerabletoattackintheworstcase.Sowhatyouaresayingisthat
oneoftheconcernsyoudiscussedinNewYorkwasthatunupgradedsystemswouldbe
vulnerabletohashratespinningupandminingfakeconfirmationswherepeopledon'tknow
aboutthefork,likeautomatedwithdrawalsystemswouldbecompromisedunfortunately.So
yourhardforkproposalisonewheretheyarestillminingontheoriginalchainfromthe
perspectiveofunupgradedoriginalnodes.Thewaythisisdesigned,theoldnodeswillseethe
oldchainasemptyblocks.Theywillfollowthatblockandtheywillnotbeleftvulnerabletofake
confirmationattacks.Thisisdonebydefiningtheserializationoftheseheadersseparatelyfrom
thehashalgorithmoftheblockhash.Sotheblockhashisthencalculatedwithamorecomplex
algorithmthancurrently.Haveyouimplementedthisinsourcecode?Yes,partially.Thep2p
stuffwillatthemomentnottalktotheoldnodes,thisneedstobefixed,whichissimilarin
segwit.Ithascomparablecomplexitytothesegwitchange.

Ithinkit'simportanttoclarifythatthisisadifferencefromtheEthereumhardfork.Inthat
hardfork,ifyourananoldclient,incomparisonthisonewillnotallowtransactionstobe
confirmed.Theoldnodesareforcedtomakeadecision,dotheywanttodothehardforkordo
theywanttodoadifferentsoftforktopreventthehardfork?Theyarenotleftvulnerable.They
mustmakeadecisiononewayoranother.

Youcouldsaythatthisproposalisnotmuchofafork.Itisblockingtransactions.Theremustbe
aforktoblockthetransactions.Anyway,thisisthemaindesignprinciple.Thereareother
interestingelementsinthedesignofthis.Thenewheaderstructuregivesmorenoncespaceto
theminersthattheycoulduseinASICswithouthavingtodothewholemerkletreeforthe
transactionsintheASICs.Soitwouldlowerthecommunicationcosttominingdevices.
However,itdoesnotputtheextranoncespaceinthecompressionrun.It'sasicboost
[extranonce?]nonce.Itrepurposes3oftheversionbytestononcespaceaswell.Youhave
versionbytesinthenewheader.Thisalsogives,thisproposalalsogivesnoncespaceinthe
versionfield.It'sbasicallyenablingasicboost.It'saninterestingdiscussionthatweshouldhave
separatelyinanothervenue.Doesithaveotherinterestingfeatures?

Itfixesthetimestampoverflowissuebycleanlyoverflowing.It'susing32bitstorepresenta
64bittimestamp.Itmakesalongtermimprovementfortimestamphandling,becausewewant
bitcointolastmanythousandsofyears.Partofbitcoin'svalueisthatit'sforever.Ifwecanfix
thetime/clockissues,thenwemightaswellfixthat.


Anotherthingthattheproposaldoesisthatit'sdesignedformergeminingnatively.So
namecoinwon'tneedtohavewholebitcointransactionboggingdowneveryblockoftheirs.
Mergeminingismoreefficient,whichwecouldalsouseforsidechains.Versionbitshavebeen
expandedtohaveseparatebitsformorehardforksinthefuture,sothatwedon'tneedtorepeat
thecomplexityofthisR&Dsothatitcansimplifytheideaofasofthardfork.Anythingelse?
He'slookingathisBIPdraft.

Itredefinesthemerkletreealgorithmtofixtheduplicatetransactionissuethatweworked
around.Itfixesabunchoftechnicalminutiaandit'shygienic,itcleansthingsup,itreduces
technicaldebt.Obviouslyweneedto..fortheoldblocks.AlsoitimprovesthingsforSPVnodes
andlightweightclients.

Whatweretheproblemswiththisproposal?

Well(laughter),Ithinkthetrickythingwiththisisthatbecauseit'safirmfork....No,let's
translate.Iwouldsaythatthetrickythingwiththisisthatbecauseit'safirmfork,....afirmfork
being,thatitisasoftforkthatforceseveryoneelseoffthenetwork(thosewhodonotupgrade).
Ifyoutrytodothatwith50/50approval,thenpoliticallyitlookslikeit'sanattackagainstthe
minority.Fromatechnicallevel,itmeansthatminerscandothisbyveto.Theproblemisthat
wewanttoavoidpoliticalugliness.Dopeopleunderstandafirmfork?It'scombiningasoftfork
andhardfork.Thereiszeropossibilityoftwocoinsafterwards.Bydefault,itwouldnotbetwo
coins.IfIamrunningabitcoinnodeandIdonothingduringthehardfork,thenIamguaranteed
tobeforcedoffthenetwork.ThenIhavetotakeactiontoeitheracceptordeclinethehardfork.
Thisiscoercive.However,ifwegotsolidindicationthatwegotconsentfromthebitcoin
community,thenitwouldnotraisemajorissues.

AlotofwhatItalkedaboutinNewYorkandpreviously,washowdoweseewhethercoin
holdershaveapprovedthis?Aretheygoingtousethisnewchain?Arewegoingtonotendup
withEthereumandEthereumClassicsituation?Orarewegoingtoendupwithaunified
bitcoin?Ithinkit'simportantthatwefindagoodwaytohavecoinholderstoshowthatyeswe
actuallyapproveofthis.Wecanactuallyusecoinvotingasawaytoarguethatthewhole
economyhasapprovedofthis.Wecanotherwisesetaprecedentwhereminerscanpush
throughchangeswithoutconsent,whichcallsintoquestionthevaluepropositionofBitcoin.So
thatiswhycoinreadinesssignallingmethodswouldbeusefultoavoidhavingthevalue
propositionviolatedsodirectly.

It'snotnecessarilythatthewholecommunityisgoingtovoteonthis.Howarewegoingtolook
atthoseresults?Whatwoulditmeanifsomevotedbutnotothers?

Ifyouhaveawalletandyoudidnotupgrade,thenyouareatrisk.It'seasyforthatwallettoend
uponachainotherthantheoneyoususpected.Wemustrespectpeople'srightstonotgowith
thisconsensus.Itwouldbedangerousforustotrytoquestiontheconsensustheywanttogo

with.Whoisincontrolhere?Isitusers?Orisitthegroupofbitcoinminers?Itcouldinfringeon
thevaluepropositionofthisbeingacurrencywithastablemeaning.

Hebelievesthatinthiscase,ifthosewalletsrefusetoupgrade,thentheywouldbetakenoffthe
network.

It'sonlyiftheyneglecttoupgrade,thentheywouldbeleftoffthenetwork.Iftheychoosenotto
takethehardfork,whichtheymustdoactively,thentheycancontinueonthechainwithoutthe
hardfork.Theymustdosomethingtoacceptit,ortorejectit,butthereisno"default"behavior.

Theexistingchainwillhaveblocks,butwithzerotransactions.

Sohisproposalisthat,peoplewhoareusingthecurrentsoftware,theirsoftwarestopsworking.
Newsoftwareisreleased,andthenifyouinstallit,itdefaultstothechainwiththemost
hashrate.Andthereisabuttonthatwouldsay"noIwanttheotherchain"....no,therewouldbe
nodefault.YoumustchooseAorB.It'sauserinterfacequestion.Sowhoistheoriginchain?
Nobodywouldbetheoriginchain.Andifwearedoingourjobright,hopefullynobodywould
choosereject,becauseotherwisewefailedourcommunitybychoosingsomethingwithout
consensus.

Ethereum'svotingturnoutwassolow(5.5%),andthepeoplewhovotedwereprobablyvery
investedinTheDAO.It'spossiblethattheyhadhashratemajority,butnotmostoftheusers.

CanIgiveabiggerpicturehere?Ifitwasdesignedsuchthatthegreaterhashratecoulddecide
thatthiswouldbeapowerfulweapontobefuddlebitcoininthefuture,thepeoplewouldlookat
bitcoinandsay"ohthegovernmentjustneedstobuyabunchofhashrateandrewritetherules
atwhim".Weneedtobeabletorespondtothatandsayno,lotsofhashratecanattackthe
network,butnotheycannotrewritetherulesatwhim.SothisBIPdesignstillsupportsthe
existenceoftheoriginalchain,howeverthroughnontechnicalmeansweshouldmakesurethat
perhapsnobodywantsthatoriginalchaintoexist."Hashratedeciding"isalongtermthreatto
Bitcoin'svalueandfungibility.It'seachpersonthatmustdecideforthemselves.Nobodyshould
decideforthem.

Inthisfork,Ithinktheeconomicormarketcap,....wewanteveryonetomaketheirowndecision
tojointhehardfork.Butyes,marketcapwouldmatter.Importantlythethingsthatwere
mentionedonsecurityearlieristhatweneedtobuildpublicprocesstomakesurethateveryone
knowsthatthishasnearlyunanimoussupportandthenitwouldbeveryeasy.Ifthereisdoubt,
thenthereisopportunitytotradeonthedoubtandmakeapoliticalstinkaboutthis.

Theirpointyesterdaywasthatpeoplewouldtrytodothat.Well,wecanminimizethat.Avery
clearsignalthatthereisnodoubt,wouldbetoshowthatasignificantpercentageofUTXOsor
somethinginthelastyear,thatyestheyagree,throughsomecoinsignallingmethod.That's

whatcoinsignallingcanshow.Itcanshowthatpeoplewhousethechainandowncoinsthat
theyagreewiththis.

Youshouldexplainthatproposal.Havetheyheardit?

Iknowthatethereumwiththeirhardforkdidalimitedversionofcoinsignalling.Theyusedtheir
coinstosay"yesIagree/disagreewiththischange".Theconceptissimple.Ifyouownsome
BTC,thenyoushouldhaveavoiceandyoushouldbeabletosayIownBTCandIwouldbe
willingtousethisnewdefinitionofwhatBTCis,andIamnotgoingtoopposeit.Walletswould
haveabuttonforwhichwaydoyouwanttogo.SomeBTCmightbeincoldstorage,etc.It
shouldbeaboutcoinsthatarespentoverthelastyear,notaboutoldcoldwalletcoinsstoreda
longtimeago.

Beforethehardfork,thereshouldbeanewversionofthewalletwhereyoucouldsignalwith
yourcoins,whetheryouliketheproposalornot.Ifthatisreasonablyhighthroughthis
measurement,...wewouldworkwithallwalletvendors,exchanges,hostedwallets,everything
wouldbeusingthiscoinsignallingmechanism.Thepointisnottotriggerthehardfork.The
pointistobuildpoliticalconsensussothatanyadversarialforkcreatedfromthishastheleast
chanceofsurviving.

Coinsignallingisveryeasilygameablebymaliciousentities.Themethodistopurchasesome
BTCandthensignalinawaythatdoesnotrepresentthewishesofthecommunity.

Therewouldbepublicoutreach,coinvoting,andusingeverymeansatthecommunity's
disposaltomakesurethateveryoneisonthesamepageandsuchthattheharmonious
hardforkwouldbeascleanaspossible.Ethereumshouldnotbethepointofreference,it
shouldbetestnet4.Yes,justasecond,Iamalmostdonemakingtestnet4.

Heactuallybelievesthatwhathasbeenproposedhereissomethingthatmakesthehardfork
easier.Youalmostmakethehardforkanotsohardfork.Thatiswhyhebelievesthatyoumay
haveopenedupsomeotherissues.

Yes.

Ifwearecomfortablewiththisapproach,thenintimewewouldbeinclinedtoperformmoreand
morehardforksinthefutureifwearegettingmorecomfortablewithit.Becauseitwouldnotbe
asdifficulttoexecuteanymore,basedonyourmethod.Sothismightopenupapandora'sbox
formorehardforksinthefuturewhichmightaltertheimmutabilityprinciplesoftheBitcoin
blockchain.AlthoughIbelievethatweneedahardforkeventually,butwehavetodoitinaway
thatweshouldnotsetbadprecedentforthefuture.Wemustdoitwithprecautiontominimize
suchjeopardyandpitfallsinthefuture.

Theproposaldoesnotchangethatthehardforkneedsconsensus.Thisisstillarequirement.


Manypeopleinthedevelopmentcommunitysharetheseconcerns,andthisispartofwhythere
wasnotmuchpublishedafterthemeetinginNewYorkaswell.

Whenthisideawasoriginallythoughtof,itgottermedan"evilfork".Thatwastheterm.
Preciselybecauseifyouhave95%hashratethenyoucanperformanytypeofchangeyou
want.Butifwehadasimplehardfork,whichmeansthattheminersarekindathreateningthe
community.Whatifitisnotacceptedbythemarketortheusers?Sointhatsenseitis
threatening.Butminerswanttokilltheoldchain.

Wedon'tagree.Partoftheproposalmakesiteasytomakeitthesiderejectingtheforktofire
theminers.Ithasaswitchtoignorealltheblocksproducedonthe"evilfork"chainside.There
hasbeenefforttomakesurethattheminersdon'tcontrolit.Thereisarisk,Iagreeit.Ithasthat
risk,buthewassayingthatwhenyouupgrade,youhavetomakeachoice.Thereisnodefault
choice.If"A"isthehighhashrateand"B"willmakeacheckpointorchangethePoWor
something,butitwouldbeimplementedandreadyforthateventuality.Let'ssaythatwedon't
knowwhattheuserswant,evenaftercoinsignalling.Perhapstheoldchaindoesn'texist,
maybeitdoes,butwemakeitpossibleforittoexistanyway,withoutmakingitadefault.

IsitpossibletoswitchtoPoWandtoaPoW+PoSsoitisamixedsystem?Amixedsystemis
muchmoredifficulttoattack?

Researchdoesnotsupportthat.

Ifsomeoneproposesanevilfork,thenperhapsthereareattacksontheoldsystem.[.....]....that
mechanismcouldbeusedtocoordinatethatforkaway.

Mymainpointwasthatthemechanismofpeoplesignallingtheirsupportforahardfork,with
theircoinsandUTXOs,couldbeusedtoalsochangethePoWfunction.Ifminerswanttogo
againsttheeconomicmajority,thentheuserscanshowsupportforaPoWswitchandcontinue
on,andleavetheminersbehind.Ihopethiswillneverhappen.Butitmakesiteasiertodoso.I
havebobchainandit'sthebestthingever.Becausethisthingcouldhappen,Ithinkit
incentivizespeopletocooperate.

Thereisaresearchquestioninthere.Couldthesehybridsystemsbeused?Allofthe
PoW+PoShybridproposalsinthepastwereveryobviouslybroken.Theyopenedupnew
seriousattackvectors,foreachattackvectortheyreviewed.Perhapsinthefuturesomeonewill
comeupwithastronghybrid.Ilookforwardtotheresearch,butwedon'tknowawaylikethat.

Usingcoinsignallingtostartanewchaincouldintheorywork,butwedon'tknowhowtobothof
thematthesametime.Weknowhowtosayatthispointstartthisnewthing,andit'sPoW.But
notaboutboththingsatthesametimeinthesamechange.

Itgetsintoalotofcomplexity.Allofthehybridaltcoinsendupdoingcheckpointingwitha
centralpointofcontrol.It'sinterestingtonotethat.

[Shortbreak.]

#LongtermgoalsforBitcoinandfungibility

SowhataboutsomelongtermsuccessgoalsforBitcoin?Whatarethethingswehopeto
achieveoverthenext5or10years?

Wehavetoremainsecure.WeneedefficientASICs.Iarguethatweneedfungibility.It'soneof
theimportantdistinguishingpropertiesofbitcoin,thatitispermissionlessandglobal.

Weneedcompetitivefees.Theycan'tbetoohighbecausetheymightpreventusecases.We
needlightningandBitcoinonchain.Wewant,presumably,manyusers.Wewanteveryoneto
benefitfromthistechnologyandforeveryonetoownbitcoin.

Weneedlongtermconfidenceforthistofunctionasastoreofvalue.Weneedpeopletobe
confidentthatthesepropertieswillsurvive.Weneedtoalsosurviveregulationrisk.Thereare
lessregulatoryrisksthancomparedtoyearsago,buttherearestillsome.

Iwouldsaythatpositivemarketing,likethemarketingdiscussionearlier,couldhelpthese
things.Wecouldattractnewusers.Wecouldexplainthebenefitstoanyusers.Wecouldfigure
outwhatpeoplelike.Ifwehadpositivemarketing,itcouldhelpconfidence.Anicepositive
bitcoinbusinessecosystemcouldhelpregulatorsfeelmorecomfortableandhelpreduce
regulatoryriskonourindustry.

Ifwelookatthisatahighlevel,ithelpsdevelopersfigureoutwhattoworkintheshortterm.We
careaboutfungibility,thereforeweworkonnewprotocolstocreatefungibilityinvarious
methods.Maybewetrytomakeminingsufficientlydecentralizedtoachievefungibilityin
practice.Andperhapswearecareful[Chromecrashed].

Iamsuggestingthatitisusefultohaveaframeworkfordiscussions.Forpeoplewhoare
makingASICsordoingpaymentprocessingiftheyallagreethatoverthenext5to10years
thesearetheobjectives,thengreat.Ithinkthatsometimeswegetstuckinamodewherewe
don'tthinkabouttheselongtermobjectives.Whatdotheminersthinkaboutthis?It'slikeme
goingtotheASICmanufacturersandsayingweneed10nmtech.Butmaybe14nmisbetter.
HowwouldIknow?Ishouldlettheminformus.Ifweagreeonthehighleveldetails,thenwe
canletpeoplewhospecializeonthedetailsdowhattheyaregoodat,includingpeoplewhoare

goodatdevelopment,orpeoplewhoaregoodatmarketingespeciallyregardingwhypeople
shouldbuybitcoin.

Perhapsminersfeelthattherearelongtermprioritiesthataredifferentperhapsforbitcoin
transactionsyouwouldpaymorebecauseitisapermissionlesssystem.Perhapsyouwould
paymoreforthistransactionbecauseothersystemswouldblockthosetransactions.Inanideal
world,perhapstransactionfeeswouldbelow.Yes,externally,competitive.Theycan'tbe
punitiveofcourse,onlythosewhowouldbeextremely

Whatistheirvisionforwhatweneedorwantin5years?

Fungibilityisarelativelynewtermtous.Ithinkthedecentralizedmoneyismoneyshouldbe
decentralized.Specifically,that'ssomethingIagreewith.Fungibilityisanewwordtothis
community.Whatdoesitmean?Ithinkitwillcreatelotsofdisagreementinthisterm.Wewanta
unitednetwork.Storeofvalue.Maybeweneedtokeeptheprincipleassimpleaspossible.Ifit
istoocomplicated,itneedstobeinasingletermthateveryonecanunderstand,andnot
somethingthatwillcreatelotsofdisagreement.

Whatisfungibility?Itisabigword.Wecangivesomeexamplesofthingsthatarenotfungible.
Paypalhasabadreputationbecausetheysuddenlyonedaystopaccounts,eventhoughyou
haddonenothingwrong.Andthenyouhavetoarguewiththemfor6monthstogetyourmoney
back.Thatisnotfungible.

Fungibilitytechnicallyistheabilitythateverycoinhasthesamevalueaseveryothercoin.
Specifically,theexampleaboutpaypal,isthatsomeoneassomeonethatreceivesmoneyasa
paypaluser,ifyoufearthatpaypalwillrevertorblockthetransaction,orfreezetheaccountor
undoyourownershipofyourownmoney.Sofungibility,inbitcoin,translatestotheinabilityto
censortransactions.Thisrelatestoprivacyanddecentralization.Maybefungibilityistoohigh
levelofatermtodescribewhatwewanthere.

Icangiveanexample.Let'ssaythatsomepeoplegiveme1BTC.Itshouldnotmatterwhich
persongavemethe1BTCtopayyou.Theyshouldallbe1BTC.That'swhatfungibilitymeans.
Thereisno"dirtycoins".Thereisnoblacklisting.

Ifcoinsarenotthesamevalueaseachother,thentheywouldbeworthless.

Papercashdoesnothavethisproblem.Theyhaveserialnumbers,buttheserialnumberson
thedollarbillsarenotused.It'snotyourfault.Ifsomebodygivesyousomemoneythatthey
haveobtainedinacrime(orethniccrime),inmostplacesyouarenotintroubleforspending
that.

Tobeclear,thisisnotnecessarilyaboutcrime.Itcouldalsobeforfunnyexamples.Let'ssay
thatifyouhave25BTCthatarefreshlyminedinablock,thentheyshouldnotbeanydifferent

fromanyother25BTC.Whatareyoutalkingabout?Youmean12.5BTC.No,3.125BTC,look
tothefuturemyfriend(wheretestnetis).

AnotherrelatedconcepttofungibilityisthatBitcoinispermissionless.Youdon'tneedtoaskfor
permissiontosignup.Youdon'tneedpermissiontosendapaymenttoaperson.Thereare
thingsthatreducefungibility.Therearesomecompaniesthataretryingtoanalyzethe
blockchaintoclaimsomecoinsareworsethanothersbecauseoftheirassociationwithpeople
andpaymentsandtransactions.Thatisverybadforbitcoin.Weshouldmakesurethatpeople
donothavetobeinvolvedwithagovernmentorbankinordertosendatransaction.Itshould
becashlike.

Maybearemarkhere.Ithinkthatpointnumber4ontheboard,thatmanyusers.Ithinkitshould
behigheronyourlistofexamples.Ithinkthesecondpoint,fungibility,shouldbe...inthatplace..
Morepeopleusingit,morepeopleknowaboutthetechnology,it'simmediatelycreatebigger
fungibility.AverygoodexampleiswhatIsawwashappenedinjustacouplemonthsinthe
Ukraineisthattheyjustincludeinmonkanoptiontosendyoucankeepbitcoinontheaccount
andyoucanbuythemonlightthebunkit.Andpeoplestoptobuyitevenjusttotry,andthey
createhugevolumeinjustonesinglemonth.Andrightnowtheycreatealotof...andIam
receivingjustalotofemailinonesmallcountry.Theyhavebeencreating10differentevents.
Andpeoplestartreadingaboutthetechnologyandstarttryingthat.Andwhatbitcoinisstill
missingismissingthegooddocumentation,andgoodrepresentationbysomeone.Sotheusers
shouldbeindicated,andtoindicatetheusersyoushouldgetsomelecturesforreadingand
talkingaboutbitcoin,marketingmaterialsforexplainingbitcoin,andsoon.Somanyusers,
dependsondocumentation,andfromlecturing,frombooks,frommentioninginthenews,in
multipleways.

Amongthisgroup,onlyIamrunninganexchangeotherthanthepersonthathadtoleavea
momentago.Ihavefirsthandexperiencewithregulators.RegulationinChinaisbigbutin
theU.S.itmightbeevenworse,thepressureofregulationisheavy.Alotofthoseexchanges,
haveproblemswithcoinsgettingfrozen,becauseofassociationwithmoneylaundering.If
bitcoinbecomesfungible,Iamafraidthatyouwouldbeevenmoresubjecttoregulators.

HefeelsthattheregulationpressureinChina,isbig,buttheregulationintheUnitedStatesis
evenmore.ThereareevenmoreregulationshereintheU.S..

Bitcointodayinpracticeisfungible.Youcantraceit,butitdoesn'tmatterwhichBTCIgiveyou.
It'sstillaBTC.

Forexample,inmyexchange,therearesomefrozenfundsbythegovernmentbecauseof
moneylaunderingsuspicions.Wehiredexpertsthatanalyzedtheblockchaintotracethesource
andmovementsofthosecoinsthroughtheblockchaintoprovethatyouknowwehaveno
relationandthatwe'reunrelatedtothemoneylaunderingactivity.Sothatiswhyweneedto
knowthetraceabilityofbitcoinintheblockchain.


Ithinkbitcoinmightnotbecomparabletocashforthisbecauseinbitcoinyouhave,youcan
trackthesourcebyanyoneandincashit'sveryhardtotracethesource.

Thatisexactlywhatfungibilityisabout.It'saboutmakingbitcoinmorelikecash.

Yesit'slikecash,butit'snot...

Thebitcoinwhitepapercallsit"p2pelectroniccash".Wethinkitneedstobemorecashlike.

Maybelikecash,butanyonecantracewhereitiscomingfrom.

Yes,butnotreliably.

Yes,butwearetalkingaboutlongtermgoals.

WhatIheardisthat,whatIunderstood,sopleasecorrectmeifIwaswrong,ifBitcoinbecomes
morefungiblethenregulatorswillbemoreburdensometoyoubecausetheywouldnotbeable
totrackBitcoin.Ithinkit'sthereverse.IfBitcoinbecomesfungible,thenregulatorswillnotgoto
youbecausetheywillnotbeabletoextractinformation.

IdontknowhowtheU.S.policedobutbecauselawenforcementinChinawork,eventhough
youcannotprovidethesourceinformationorthesourceoffundinformationtothem,thatwould
makethemevenmoresuspiciousoftheoutcomeandthesourceofthefunds.Thismightmake
themtakeactiontofreezefunds.ThisiswhyhethinksfungibilityinBitcoincouldcreateeven
moreregulatorypressurefortheexchangesinChina.

Ifthecoinsarefungible,thentheycannotbefrozen.Bytechnicalmeans,regulationcannotbe...

Youdonotenforcetheregulationsintheprotocolitself.Theenforcementwouldhappenat
higherlevels.Youcouldauditbusinesses,withoutmodifyingthefungibilityofbitcoinitself.[The
AML/KYChappensatthebusinesslevel,notontheblockchain.]

Bitcoininmanywaysbehaveslikecash.Onthisparticularissue,thecharacteristicsofbitcoin,
becauseifyouwanttomaketheprotocolandmakebitcoinevenmorefungibleonthe
protocollevel,Ibelieveit'sjustawish.Youmaynotbeabletomakeithappen.It'sbecauseyou
know,there'sadifferencebetweencoinsontheblockchain.Somecoinsaredirty.Somecoins
areclean.That'sjusthowtheyare.Youcan'terasethisdifference.Youcan'tmakethemthe
same.

Wecanerasethesedifferences.

Letmeputanotherangleonthis.Theotherpartoffungibilityisthat,evenifyoucouldtracethe
originofcoins.ThereshouldbeanexpectationinBitcointhatifIcreateatransactionandIpay
acompetitivefee,thecoinsshouldgothrough.Sothetransactionshouldhappenregardlessof
whethergovernmentswanttolockthattransactionandpreventitfromhappening.In
ChainAnchortheywantedtogoandblocktransactionsthatdidnothavecorrectAML/KYC.To
someintheBitcoincommunity,thisismoreconcerningthanfungibilityitself.Evenifyoucould
tracetheoriginofthecoin,thenattheveryleastyoucouldnotpreventthetransactionfrom
happening.Soyoucouldstilltracetheoriginofthecoins,butthetransactionwouldneverbe
stoppable.

Goldislegalandishighlyfungible.Ifthereistaintedgold,andtaintedserialnumbers,youcan
stillmeltthemetalsdownintoliquidandgetuntaintedgold.Sowecandothesamewithbitcoin.

Inasystemwithgoodfungibility,regulatorycompliancecanbeachievedevengreaterthanitis
today.Ifpaymentprotocolsbetweenexchangesallowedforthesharingofidentifying
informationonthatothernetwork,thatwouldimproveregulatorycompliance.Ifthesystemisnot
fungible,thenwehaveinternationaluncertaintycreatedbydifferentpolicyindifferentjurisdiction
whichcreatesuncertaintyaboutcoinvalue.Itisperfectlytechnicallypossibletomakecoinsthat
areabsolutelyalwaysequalwithequalorigins.Therearecompetitorslikezerocash(zcash)that
dothisastheircompetitivebasis.Ifbitcoinispooratthis,thenitisnotasgoodatdigitalgold
andnotasgoodasastoreofvalueandwecouldseebitcoinoutcompetedbythose
competitors.

ThefungibilityaspectisahugecompetitiveadvantageofBitcoinversustheexistingfinancial
systemincludingVisa,PaypalandMastercard.ThegreatestadvantagethatBitcoinhasisthatit
eliminatescounterpartyrisk.Itcaneliminatecounterpartyriskwithlegalrisk.Youdonotneedto
underwriteyourcounterparty'slegalstanding.Themomentthattheydeliveryourbitcoin,you
havethegood.Theunderwritingintoday'sfinancialsystemhasasignificantcost.

Maybeexplainunderwriting?Well,it'stheideaoftakingresponsibility.IfItakeabitcoinfrom
you,it'snotuptometodetermineifyouarecomplyingwiththelawsofsomeotherjurisdiction.
Underwritingmeansyouarenotresponsiblefortheliabilityoftheotherparty(thecounterparty).

Thepointisthatit'scash.IfIpayyoubitcoin,youownthebitcoin.Itdoesn'tmatterwhereit
comesfrom.Therearetechnicalwaystomaketheoriginsindistinguishable(thesameand
equal).

Peopletalkaboutchargebacks.ItgoesdeeperthanVisachargebacks.Theinterestingthing
aboutthisisthatwhenyouaredealingwithtransactionsworthmillionsandbillionsofdollars,
theyarenotconcernedaboutchargebacks,theyareconcernedaboutsolvencyofthe
counterparty.Thatswhywehavetitleinsurance.Withmoneyitself,thereisalotof
underwritingnecessarysimilartotitleinsurance.Whenyouremovethatneed,whenyoumake
bitcoinfullyfungible,that'sahugeadvantagethatbitcoinhasoverallothermonetarysystems.


Thisisalsoveryimportantwhenwethinkaboutautomatedpayments.Machinetomachine
transactions.Andsmartcontracts.Becausesmartcontractoramachinecan'tevaluatethe
counterpartyriskorAMLcounterpartyriskinatransactiontheycanonlylookatthetransaction.
Theonlywaytomakeamachineautomaticallydothis,istomakethesystemmore
permissionedandtryingtoeject"bad"usersfromthesystemwhichwouldharmthe
permissionlessofbitcoin.So,wethedevelopersinthecommunitythinkthatbeingcashlikeisa
veryimportantcompetitiveadvantageofBitcoinwhichsupportsothercompetitiveadvantages
likesmartcontracts,machinetomachinetransactions,andthatifwewantbitcointogrowinthe
worldthenweneedtoprotectthisadvantageandfindwaystofurtherit.Ifwedon'tdothis,then
Bitcoinmightbesupplantedinthemarketbyalternatives(likezcash,monero,etc.)whichdo.

Legallyortechnically?

Iflegally,thenthismightnotbeuniversalacrossthecountries.

Youmakeitworktechnicallysothatthelegalchoicebecomesirrelevant.Youdon'tneedto
makethatkindofdecisionthen.

Ifyouaretryingtomakethistechnologicallyfungible,thenyouhavetoaseriouschangetohow
bitcoinworks?

SotherearewayswithnoprotocolchangestoachievemuchbetterfungibilityinBitcoin.For
example,thisisdonewithlightningnetwork.Sometechnology,likecoinjoin,isbuiltintobitcoin
fromdayone.Oneofthethingsthisresultsinisthatsomeonewhoisengagedincriminal
activitycanalreadygetprettygoodprivacyinthesystem.Theycanmineinordertogetfresh
coins.Theycanusecoinjoins.Theycanswaptheircoinswithotherusers.Sothecriminal
actorsalreadyhavefungibilityenoughforthem.Sotheremainingquestioniswhataboutthe
noncriminals?Whatfungibilitydotheyhave?Whatriskareweplacingonusersinoursystem?

Criminalusersdonotneedasmuchfungibilityasyoumightthink.Theyneedmoney
laundering.Theironyisthattheyaretryingtomakedirtymoneylookclean.Theyactuallywant
apapertrail.Criminaluserswantapapertrail.That'stheweirdparadoxhere.Theydonotwant
aninvisibletrail.

Mostofthepeopledoingcoinjoin,youthink,whytheydothat?Ithinkmostofthembecause
theyareprobablynotveryclean,sotheyusecoinjoin,....

Criminalsmakefalsetransactionsthatmakethemlooklikerealtransactionslike"Isoldacar"or
"Isoldatshirt".

Ihavebeenrunningmyjoinmarketcoinjoinclientthewholetimeonmylaptopforthiswhole
event.WhyshouldIwanttouseasystemthathaspoorprivacy?Iwouldratherusemoneroor

zcash.WhywouldIwantmoneythatIcannotusetopaymyobligationsortobuygoodsand
services?Youhavecompetitionfromcentralizedusers(whichoftenhavegoodprivacy),and
decentralizedthingswhichofferbetterprivacythanbitcoin.

Ireceivedpaymentsformoderatingaforumonline.Someofthecoinsfromthosepayments
camefromtotallylawfulgamblingsites,andthecoinswenttotheforum,andthentheforum
paidme.AndIdepositedtoCoinbase,andthenCoinbasetookweeksofarguingwithmetoget
itfixed.ItwasnotCoinbase'sfault.Theyexistinaregulatoryenvironmentwheretheyareforced
toactinacertainway.TheUnitedStatesisverynegativeaboutlawfulgamblingservicesfrom
othercountries.CoinbasehadtodothisbecausetheyliveunderthejurisdictionofU.S.law.It's
unfortunatebecauseit'sanapplicationthatU.S.lawhates,eventhoughIwaspaidfor
somethingcompletelyunrelatedtogamble.Inevergamble.Thisisanexampleofgettinghurt
byalackoffungibilityinBitcoin.

Ithinkthatresponsibilityshouldbeappliedtotheuser,andnottopunishtheentiresystemor
theexchangesforthebehaviorofbadactors.Fungibilityprotectstheinnocent.Fungibilityis
aboutprotectingtheinnocent.Thecriminalswanttomoneylaunder,andtheywantpublic
records.

Iwilltellyouatruestory.Someuserafewmonthsagodeposited1000BTCtoanexchange.
Theybelievethecoincomesfromadarknetcoinmixingservice.Soheseizedthemoneyand
askedtheuserfortheirphotoIDandtheirAMLdocument.Afterreceivingthedocument,what
didyou...Didyoureleasethecoins?Yes.

Wouldn'tyoulikeasystemwhereyoucan'teventellwhetherit'sfromadarknetmarketinits
history?

Welltheymightberequiredbythepolicetodothis.

Ihaveaninterestingexperiencewheremyemployerisaregulatedasacommoditiestrading
platform,theinterestingthingisthatevenifbitcoiniscompletelyfungibletheregulatorsare
completelyokaywiththat.ThethingisthattheregulatorsrequireustoperformAMLandKYC
regardlessofthefungibilityoftheunderlyingcoins.Soifthecoinsareallequalwithequal
originsthatareindistinguishable,theregulatorsareokaywiththis.Wearestillobligatedto
investigatewhoourcustomersare,buttheactualnetworklevelblockchainsourcesare
completelyunimportant.

.....onceit'sinyourwallet,it'smovingaroundhandtohandcashinaneconomy,andinan
exchangeit'smorelikeabankaccountwhereyouaretransferringittosomeoneelseand
someone.....cashonhandismorefungiblethancashinabankaccount.

Weweretalkingaboutfungibility,AMLandKYCforexchanges.Couldyousharesome
experiencesfromyourexchangeaboutthat?

Ifthereisaproblem,thenthepoliceandgovernmentwillcomeinandwanttofindoutwherethe
coinswent.

Theassertionwasthatfungibilityisadesirablelongtermgoalorproperty.Wearetryingtotalk
aboutlongtermcharacteristicsthatareinterestingtoallofusasagroup.

It'shardtosayIthink.Ifyouhavefungibility,thenitiswhatitis.Itcouldbetheargumentthat,if
everythingisthesame,thenthereisnothingyoucoulddo.Youcan'treallysayit'sgoodorbad
rightnow,butrightnowtheregulatorsdoaskforwherethecoinsgoorwheretheywerefrom.If
it'snottoaknownaddress,thenthere'snothingyoucoulddoaboutitanyway.

Confidentialtransactions?Couldwehaveupdates?

Assomepeoplehereknow,thereareanumberoftechnologiesforimprovingconfidentialityand
privacyinbitcoin.CoinjoinisoneoftheseR&Defforts.Coinjoinhasalimitation,whichisthat
thecoinjoindoesnothidethevaluesoftheamountsbeingmoved.Commercially,theamounts
canbevaluableinformation.Thedifferenceinvaluesfrombeforeandafteracoinjoincanbe
usedtodisentanglethecoinjoinandfindouttheinformation.ThereisaR&Deffortforsignature
aggregationwhichcanincreaseblockchaincapacityby30%.Itwillalsoletyousavefeesby
usingcoinjoin,it'sasideeffectofaggregation.

Aboutayearago,therewasapublicationforconfidentialtransactions.Itexistsinvarious
sidechainsystemsnow.CT(confidentialtransactions)makesthevaluesoramountsofthe
bitcointransactionscompletelyprivate.Wehavebeenworkingonmakingthismoreefficient.
UnfortunatelythepreviousconstructionofCTaddedsize.Wehavesincethenmadeit20%
faster.Wehavemadeitnativelysupportcoloredcoinsandassets,andmakingthemprivate,
whichisperhapsimportantforothersystemsmorethanitisimportantforbitcoin.Wehavealso
morerecentlycomeupwithbetterwaystocombineitwithcoinjointhatmakeiteasiertodeploy.
Wehavebeenworkingonimprovingthattechnology.OneofthegreatthingsaboutCT
technologyisthatitonlyhasaconstantfactorcostofscaling.Ifyouweretoapplyconfidential
transactionstothebitcoinnetwork,therewouldbeanadditionalsizetothosebitcoin
transactionsthatuseCTwouldbehigher,butthatwouldbetheonlydownside.Thering
signaturesinmoneroandthezcashtechhaveworselongtermscalingcharacteristics,CTis
betterinthisaspect.Ihopethatthisconfidentialityworkwillbenefitbitcoininthenearfuture,
andifnotbitcointhenatleastsidechains.

Youcouldsaythatyoucanseparatethefungibilityinanexchange,isdifferentfromthe
fungibilityofacoininyourpocket.Thisisthesameforphysicalcashandbitcoin.Therearealot
ofpeoplewhoreallylovefungibility.Theywouldbeverysadifbitcoinbecamelessfungible.If
youweretotalkaboutformanyofthebitcoinholders,andaskedthem,ifyoulostafeatureof

bitcoin,woulditupsetyouorwouldyoustopusingbitcoin?Ifitlostfungibility,manypeople
wouldgetupset.It'ssomethingthatmanypeoplearepassionate.That'swhyyouhearallthis
excitementaboutnewtech,decentralizationasimportant,becausedecentralizationisthe
currentmechanismthatbitcoinisusingtohavefungibility.It'stheassurancethatsomeonewill
eventuallyprocessyourtransaction.Ifoneminerhasagovernmentthatsaysdon'tprocessthis
transaction,thensomeonewithafewterahashesintheirgarageinanothercountrywillstillbe
abletotakethattransactionbecauseofdecentralization.Soyouneedsomereasonablelevelof
decentralizationtoguaranteethatalltransactionswillgetprocessed.

Lotofstuff.Butgovernmentandpolicemaynotsharethesameview.Ifwechangethecurrent
fungibilitytechnically,governmentsmaychangetheirattitudetowardbitcoin.

Propertiesofgoodmoney:<http://contrarianinvestorsjournal.com/?p=391>

Hethinkstherearemorepeopledoingbanktransactionsthanpeopleusingbitcoin.Sodoes
bitcoinreallyneedfungibility?Hebelievesthatmaybeweshouldfocusmoreontheunderlying
technologytomakebitcoinprocessing,likelightningnetworkandmakingtheinfrastructure
morerobust.

Keepinmindthatifyoudon'tneedfungibilityinasystem,thenyoudonotneedmining.Youcan
usebanks.Youdon'tneedinfrastructure.Wehaveasevereriskofcompetitionfromhighly
centralizedefficientsystem.

Weneed...veryeasyto.....banksandgovernments...still...maybeweneedafungibility,but
maybewecanmakethisfungibilityinanotherlayerofthisnetwork,likesidechainsmaybe,and
makeitintotheminingnetwork,butonthemainchainweshouldmaketheprotocolassimple
aspossible.

Iwanttomakemoreofapointthere.Ifthemainchainisfungibleinthesensethatyoucandoa
transactionanditwillalwaysbemined,thenyoucanmakelayersontoptomakeitmore
fungible.Youcandocoinjoinandlightningassecondlayers.Theprotocoldoesnothavetobe
complex.Ifsomeonewantstomakebitcoinlessfungible,thenIamnotabletojustgotoyou
andsayhere'salistofaddressestoblacklist.Ithinkrightnowit'snotagoodstoryfornow.
Whenwelookatthehashrategraphsonblockchain.info,it'snotatruestory,butithurtsinvestor
confidence.Weneedtoassurethemthattheywillbeabletospendtheirmoney.Atthe
exchangeleveltheprivacymightnotbegood,buttheyneedtobeabletomovemoneyaround.

Machinetomachinetransactionsandsmartcontracts,itmightbedifficulttomakealternative
protocolsreliableifbitcoinisnotsufficientlyfungible.Automateddecisionsmadebywalletswill
notbeabletorespectthenonfungibilityofacoin,whichisaninvisibleproperty,whichmakes
allofthesebitcoinsystemslessusable.However,Iagreethatweshouldmovecomplexityto
otherlayersandkeepthebaselayerssimple.

Myimpressionisthatwearemoreinagreementthanitseems.

Apointthereisthatinbitcoin,evenwithnochangetothesystem,fungibilitychangesovertime.
Originallyinbitcoinwalletsoftware,anewaddresswasusedforeverytransaction.Backwhen
bitcoinstarted,therewerenocompanieslikeChainalysisorEllipticthatconnectedtoevery
nodeinthenetworkandmonitoreverything.Sometimestechhastoadapttotheworld,inthe
samewaythattheblocksizehastochangetoadapttotheworld.

LikeaVPN,yourunitontop.Ithinkweareinagreementonthis.Iagree.It'snotamagicbullet.
Inabadworldwherebitcoinwasveryunfungible,thenlightningandsidechainsmightnoteven
bepossible,ortheymightbeunreliable.Youcannotbuildafungiblesystemontopofonethatis
nonfungible.It'snotpossible.It'seffectivelyimpossible.Anythingbuiltontopofitcannotbe
fungible.

Ifyouwanttobreakthoseprivacyproperties,youbreaktheunderlyinglayer.Thisisnotadetail.
Thisisimportant.Buildingsomething"strong"ontopofsomething"weak"issilly.Weshould
makethebasebitcoinlayerasstrongaspossible.Thissoundslikeadetail,butit'snotadetail.

Hispointisthathestillhastowaittoseeuntilaftertheexchangehasusedthisfungibility
functionality,thentheywillknowtheactualeffectontheiroperationsandsystems.Theythinkit
istooprematuretotalkaboutitsactualeffect.Solet'snotspendtoomuchtimeonthis.Let's
moveontosomethingelse.

Let'stakea5or10minutebreakandthenwecancontinue.

#Hardforks

Whattopicsdotheminersconsiderimportantthathavenotbeendiscussed?

Pleasehaveaseatsothatwecancontinueandwrapup.Longday,lotofinformation,
exhausted.Westillhaveafewmoretopicstotouchbeforewewrapupthemeeting.Let'sgo
withtheminersfirst.Whowouldliketostart?

Undertheexistingsituation,the...ofEthereum...havealreadygivenusanexampleofa
hardfork.Bitcoincouldhaveasimilarsituationinthenearfuture.Howshouldwesolvethis
problem?Inthelongterm,weshouldpromotetheusecasesofbitcoin.Intheshortterm,we
shouldbuildawider,broaderconsensus.Weneedtoformaplatformtocommunicateandtalk.
ItshouldincludeCoredevelopers,miners,Bitcoincompanies,bitcoinexchanges,andother
users.Basedonallthelessonswehavelearnedfromtheothercoinsandtheirhistories,we

shouldgiveupthefightingandconflict.Weshouldpayourattentiontocommunicationand
cooperation.Weshouldbuildsuchaplatform.

Anothertopicwewouldliketotalkaboutisthatrightnowit'sJuly31standit'sthelastdayofthe
HKagreement.Wethinkthatindividualsshouldgiveanexplanationtothecommunity.

Howshouldwemakethatcommunicationplatform?Whatexplanationshouldwegivetothe
community?Theminersneedtogivekindofanexplanationorsomehowtothecommunityas
well.Wehavethosepressuresaswell.

PersonallyIamhappytoseeworkonthat.

Ifsomeonewastopostaboutthestatusofthis,todrawattentiontothedocumentsandcode
thathehaswritten,wouldthisbethecommunicationyouarelookingforabouttheagreement?

Ibelievethatwouldhelpalot.Okay,Icandothat.OnethingthatIwantedtoaskaboutthat,on
thatsubject,becauseofthepeopleopposedtothehardforkfromtheagreement,andbecause
ofthepeoplewhoaresayingdeadlinetimeisuptimeisupallthetime,maybeweshould
removethepressure,andIwillcontinuetoworkonahardforkanyway?

Weshouldresearchthis.Hedoesn'twanttobeworkingunderpressure.Therearemanyopen
problemsstill.It'sbettertodothiswithouttheauspicesofpressure.

Okayabettercommunicationwouldbe,howwouldyouliketodothiswork?Ithinkit'simportant
thatpeopledonotcontinuetoperceivethatworkasacloseddoorHongKongagreementtodo
ahardfork.Thehardforkitselfmustbedesignedorganicallyandnormally.

Soperhapsaquestionwouldbe,onapersonallevel,wouldyouwanttoworkonahardfork
proposal?YesIamgoingtodothat,butifthere'sanagreement,thenthecommunityperceives
thatnegatively.

Somaybepresentaboutthedeliverable,andnowitisbetterforthelargercommunityto
collaborateonit.Sofurthercollaborationandworkwouldbeopencollaborationandwork.
Wouldthatbeagreeableandgood?

Youcanmakeaproposaltothewidercommunity.Theproposalmightnotbecompletely
finished,itcouldbeadraft,it'sobviouslysomethingthatrequiresfurtherwork,it'stheproposal
sofar.TheHKagreementsaidaftersegwit,too.

Itismuchbettertoadmitthatthetimeisdelayed.It'snotaproblem.Wecanjustsayfrankly,it's
delayed.Forlotsofengineeringreasonsethereumstuff,wehavelessonslearnedsegwitis
delayed,etc.Areweokaywithsayingthis?It'snotjusthim,it'severyone.


Itisnotfairthattheattentionhasshiftedtohim.It'snotallonyou.Wewanteveryonetobe
awareofthis.Ifthisworkgoingforwardisseenasaforcedoutcomeofaclosedroom
agreement,thenitwillbeopposedonthatbasisalone.Ithinkthisworkisgoodanduseful,but
wehavetoremovethespecterof"thisisaforcedchangeonthenetwork".Weneedto
collaboratetoimprovethat.Wecansaythattheprocessisdelayed,segwitcauseddelay,
complexityofthiscauseddelays,andthat'sfine,butweneedthistogofroman"HKagreement"
proposaltobeingacommunityproposal.Iamsayingthisforthesakeoftheproposal.Without
this,itcannotgetwidespreadpublicsupport.

MayIaskaquestion.Whyishetheoneworkingonthisbutitwasnevercommunicated.Why
wasn'titshared?Whydidwenothearaboutthiswork?Whydidyounothearaboutthiswork?

Ican'tstopthemfromworkingonthings.Hepublishedaboutitonthebitcoindevmailinglist.I
thinkwealljustareverybadatcommunication.Sowithinthedevelopercommunity,someofus
werenotawareeither.Noneofuswereeagertotalkaboutthiswhenitsoundedlikethiswas
goingtobeusedtoblocksegwit.

Mybeliefthatiswhathasbeenproposed,thatwetrytoandturnthisHKagreementintoa
communitybasedconsensuswork,issomewhathardtodoandimpracticalinhisbelief.There
couldbeanotherwaytorealizethat.Wecoulddoitthroughafoundationthatwewere
proposingearlier.Itcouldbetheconsensusforanewfoundationtotrytorealizethat.

Ithinkthatifyoutriedtodothatthroughanewfoundation,itwouldleadalotofbacklash
againstthathardforkplanandorganization.

Youwouldhavetogetpeopletoacceptandembracethefoundation.Thatwouldtaketime.

Wecouldexplorethepossibilityofdoingthat.Wecanbeopentoworkingwithotherefforts.

Itwouldbeextremelychallengingtodoitthatway.

Weshouldtalkmoreaboutit.

Atthebareminimum,thebestsuitabilityforafoundationisthingslikemarketingefforts,not
hardforks.

Regardlessofwhichplanwearetryingtoadopt,wecannot,it'snotreasonabletoexpect100%
consensus.Sothequestionistowhatextentwewanttoreachconsensus.Howmucheffort
wouldweliketoputintoengagingthecommunitytogetthere?

WhenyousaidyouwantedtousetheHKagreementtomakeitacommunityproposalfora
hardfork,youmeantthedevelopmentcommunity?Ordoyoumeaneveryone?


Imeaneveryone.Thepointisthatpolitically,theBitcoinecosystemshouldnotacceptimposed
rulechangesonthenetwork.Andso,ahardforkthatcomesoutofacloseddoormeeting
soundslikeanimposedrulechangeonthenetwork.Therearemanypeoplewhowillprincipally
rejectthis,reflexively.Iwanttheretobecollaboration.Mostpeoplewillignoreit.ButIwant
theretobecollaborationsothatwecansaythisisaproductoftheBitcoincommunity.Itcannot
beacloseddooragreement.

ThiswasLukespostonthemailinglist:
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoindev/2016February/012389.html>

Atthispoint,itwouldbealittlebitdifficultorchallengingtoreframetheHKagreementtoa
broadercommunitybasedeffort.TryingtoreframetheHKagreementtoanopencommunity
agreementwouldbedifficult.Thesimplestwayisto,wejustbasedontheHKagreement,then
wetrytopullpeopleintothatandthengainconsensusonthat.Thatwouldbethesimplestway.

MyunderstandingoftheplaninFebruarywasthatwewouldmakesomething,wewouldthen
proposeittopeople,andthenhopetheywouldlikeit.Wewouldhopethecommunitywould
reachconsensusonit,andwewouldaskthemtodiscussitandbuildonitandsoon.SoIthink
that'sgood,tomepersonally.

Inordertomakebitcoingrowsustainablyinthefuture,it'simportantforustobuildaplatform
hereasImentionedbefore.Weneedcommunication.Weneedtoresolvedifferences.Weneed
tobridgegapssothatwedon'thavethosesituationsagain.Alotofusinthisroomdidnoteven
knowaboutthatwork.Weshouldalltrytopreventthatfromhappeninginthefuture,anda
platformcouldfacilitatethat.

Weshouldworktoimprovecommunication.

Tomorrowwedon'tgotoStanfordlanduntil11.Perhapstomorrowwecouldtalkabouthow
minerscangetintobettercommunicationwithCoreandhowCorecanhavebetter
communication.Yeahwecouldspendafewhoursonthistomorrowmorning.Wehave
breakfastat9amtomorrowagain.

MypointisthatnowthemarketcapforBitcoinisalmostover$10billionUSD.Itisbig.Drivenby
privateinterestandtechnologicalinterest,therewillbealotof...thatwillbepoppingupone
afteranother.AndalotofCoredevelopershere,youaremanyofyouarethemostinfluential
figuresintheBitcoincommunity.Sothesooneryouformsuchanorganization,thebetteroff
youbecometoprotectyourselffromthosepotentialcompetitorsinthefuture.So,don'tmessup.

Wecouldpostonthemediumblogandlinktohiscodeandproposalandwriteafewthings.
Maybe,Ithink,it'shimselfwhoshouldtellthecommunity.Hecansignhisnameontheblog

post.Theupdateshouldbeprovidedinthesamelocation.Wejustneedsomechannelto
announceittothepublicformassmediaandsoon.

Ithinkitwouldbegoodtopostitonthebitcoindevmailinglist.

Heshouldalsomentiontheothercontributionsfromtheotherscontributors."Inthefuturewe
needtomoveforwardandhavebettercommunication".Doesthatsoundgood?

Weneedtobecarefultonotmakethissoundlikebitcoinistalkingabouthardforking
immediatelyafterEthereumFoundation'sblunders.

Wehaverefreshmentsintheback.

Breakfastandmeetingstartsat9amtomorrowmorning.Wecantalkforanhourortwo,thenwe
willheadouttoStandfordland.

#Day3

Wedon'thavealotoftimeinthemorningfordiscussion.Wehaveahardstopfordiscussionin
themorning.Inthemorning,wewillhaveawrapupdiscussion.WewillleaveforStanfordand
wecansharerides.Ihavealreadysenttheparkingemailandwecanallparkatthesame
locationandwalkovertothebuilding.

#Blockwithholdingattacks

IhadabriefchatwithadeveloperduringtheHongKongScalingBitcoinevent.Ithinkaminer
andIsharetheopinionthatitisquiteachallengeforanypooloperatorsto...Ithinkmostofthe
developershaven'trecognizedhowriskythiscouldbe.Iwouldliketohearmorefromyouabout
this.

Frommyside,Iamnotfamiliarwithmining.Theattackiswhenoneofyourparticipantsfinds
somethingwithPoWanditdoesnotbroadcastittothepool?Okay.

Andthisisparticularlyacuteforpaypersharepoolsbecausetheycontinuetogeteffectivelythe
samereturnuntilthepoolgoesbankrupt.

Wethinktherehavebeenrealattacksagainstghash.ioandwealsothinkit'sthemainreason
whytheyhadsuchbadluckforlongtime.Andalso,therewasonemorepossibility.Ifonepool

suffersfromthiskindofattack,thentheymaylaunchthesameattackagainstanotherpoolif
theythinktheotherpoolwaslaunchingthatattackagainstthem.Andalso,ifthishappens,
maybemanypeoplejustattackeachotherwiththiswithholdingattack,andit'squitedangerous
forthewholeindustry.Itslikeadeathspiral.

https://petertodd.org/2016/blockpublicationincentivesforminers

Idon'tthinkyouneedtotalkaboutdeathspiral,blockwithholdingisimportantanyway.Oneof
thechallengeswithfixingthisisthatthere'snofixthatweknowaboutthatdoesn'talsokill
p2poolorkillatotallydecentralizedpoolasaviableoption.Severalyearsago,thiswasmuch
moreofanissuethanitisnow,becauseitseemsthatp2poolhasdieditsowndeath
independentlyofthisattack.Thereareseveralwaystofixblockwithholdingthis.Themining
poolcouldretainsomesecretwhichitgivesoutonlyafteryoureturntheblocktoit.Andthen
thisismadepartoftheBitcoinconsensusrules.Themoststraightforwardwaytodeploythis
wouldrequireahardfork.Unfortunatelythishardforkwouldbeincompatiblewiththesafe
hardforkmethodthatwasdiscussedyesterday.Theremightbesomewaystofixthatand
improvethat.

Thereisaquasisoftforkwaytofixblockwithholdingattacks.Unfortunatelyit'skindofugly.I
amnotsureifit'sapathwewanttogodown,althoughit'seasiertodeploy.Thebasicideainall
ofthesefixesisthatyoucanmakeitsothatthehashercantellifithasavalidshareornot,but
itcan'ttellifithasavalidblock.Soitemitstheshare,andonlywiththesecretdatacanitdothe
finalchecktoseeifithasavalidblock.HowCPUcostlyischecking?It's..sameasvalidatinga
share.

AsfarasIknow,therearenowaytodetectallthepossibilitiesthatsignaltotheattacker.There
arealsosome..thatthedetectorcandetectfrom...

Oneofthethingsthatfixesblockwithholdinghelpswithisthisissueof"accidentalblock
withholding".Becausethereisnotenoughnoncespaceintheblockheader,miningsoftwarehas
becomesophisticatedwithreachingintothebitcoinblockandmuckingaroundwiththeinternals
oftheblock.Thishasmadeiteasyforauthorsofminingsoftwareanddevicefirmwareauthors
tomessuptheirhandlingofmining,suchthattheycorrectlyreturnshares(becauseiftheydidn't
dothisthentheywouldnoticeimmediately)buttheydon'tcorrectlyreturnblocks.Therehave
beenacoupleofcaseswherethishasoccurred.Onereasonforthisisthatstratumencodesthe
difficultyasafloatingpointnumberinJSONorJSONlikeformat,whichhasmadeiteasyfor
peopletomessuptypehandlinganddodumbthings.TherearesomecaseswhichIam
confidentwereaccidents.Butfromapool'sperspective,it'sevenworsethanamalicious
withholding.Atleastamaliciouswithholderwillatleastbestrategic,soit'skindofworseifit's
notevenamaliciousevent.IthinkitisfairtosaythatIwouldliketofixit.Whenwetalkedabout
fixingblockwithholdingseveralyearsago,withtheminingcommunitybackthen,therewas
relativelylittleinterestinfixingit.Partofthereasonforthatlackofinterestwasthat,atthetime,
therewerenopaypersharepools.Manyoftheexistingpooloperators(atthattime)thatthey

didnothavetoworrymuchaboutwithholdingandthattheattackerswouldonlybeharmingthe
attacker'sselves.Sincethen,thepoolingclimatehaschanged.Somepeoplehavepublishedan
analysisthatparticularlywiththeexistenceofVeryLargePoolstherearewaystostrategically
minethatprofit,er,thatprofitfromwithholdingratherthanmerelybeingdestructivewith
withholding.

Intermsofchoosingpayoutmechanisms,likepaypershare,payperlastshare,allthese
differentthings,isthisuserdriven?DopeoplewantXorYmethod?Howdopoolsdecideon
this?Whathasbeentherecentdemandordrivebehindthis?

Yousaidit'smostlypaypershare?

F2poolandantpoolandBWarepaypershare.Isthatmostlydrivenfromthepoolwhosaysthis
iseasierandbetterforus?

Onlyuserswantthis.IfyouusePPS,maybetheminingpooldoesn'tcareaboutoperate.Users
donotlikethefluctuationoftheincome.That'smostofthereasonwhytherearepools.

That'sthereasonpoolsexistinthefirstplace.

WewerethefirstmajorminingpoolinChinatodoPPS.Youcanseeeveryoneelsecopiedtheir
FAQfromus.

ItwassurprisingtometoseethemigrationbacktoPPSbecausetherewasaperiodearlyonin
Bitcoin'slife,wherePPSwasused,anditwasattackedandthenpeoplestoppedusingit.Iwas
surprisedtoseepoolstransferringbacktothat.Iunderstand,though,theuserconcerns.Oneof
thebiggestblockwithholdingattacksweknewaboutwithPPSwasthatBtcGuildlost1400
bitcoinatleastduetoblockwithholding.Itseemedlikeitwasinadvertent

.((lostconnectiontogoogledoc,brieflycommandeeredanotherlaptop))

Couldyoufixthisinasoftfork?

Thereisasoftforkwaytofixthis.Itsalittlebitugly.Itsnotapuresoftfork.Whatyoubasically
doisyoucanimaginethenormalwaytofixwithholdingistochangehow,itsahardforkthat
changeshowsomeonedecideswhetherablockisvalidornot.Itchangesthedefinitionofa
passingblock.Thewayyoudothiswithasoftforkisyouimposeanewrule,theoriginalrule
andanewrule.Thenewrulestartswithzerodifficultyandyourampitupslowlyovertime.IT
narrowsthitlowersthenetworkhashratebyasmallfractionofapercent.Yourampitupover
timetothepointwhereitactuallyhasenoughbitsofentropytoeffectivelystopwithholding.It
hasthesoftforklikeadvantagethatitcannotencourageanetworksplitoverit.Butinevery
otherwayithasdisadvantages.

Sodontfixestoblockwithholdinginherentlymakeselfishminingworse?Becausethedefense
againstselfishminingisthattheminercanbroadcasttheblock,andnowtheycantdothat.

Inpractice,notheydont.Oneofthepotentialanswerstoselfishminingisthatyoucanimagine
apoolthatisminingthatisnotannouncingthenewblocks.Oneofthewaytoavoidthisisto
havethehashersleaktheblocksthatthepoolsolves.Withstratum,thisisnotpossible.With
GBTmining,itspossibletodothat.

Isthatblockwithholding?Oristhatsharewithholding?

No,thatsselfishmining.Ifyouimagineapoolwithalotofhashrate,morethan1/3rd.Ifapool
findsablockandinsteadofannouncingablock,perhapstheykeeptheblockforthemselves
andafterretargetingandsoon.Andreallytheresnointeractionherewithblockwithholding.
sothesolutiontoselfishminingcannotworkwithstratum.Idontknowifpooledselfish
miningisamajorconcern,becauseitwouldbeverydetectable.Alltheminerswouldseethat
theblocksarentbeingannounced,andatthatpointactioncouldbetaken.

Dominingpoolskeepstatisticsontheluckofdifferentusers?Itsnotlikeyoucandoawhole
lot.

Yes,butits,theydothat,butitsnotuseful.Particularlyyoucantkickthemoff,itsnot
actionable.Anattackerwouldspreadthemselvesacrossmanylowhashrateaccounts.

Basically,iftheyareactivelytryingtohidefromyou,theonlyremedyistocloseaccesstothe
pool,onlyfriendsandfamily.Whichisnothelpfultotheideaofpooling.

Weshouldpublishaproposal(ortwo)onfixingblockwithholding.Iwouldbehappytoworkon
this.Inthenext30to60days,Iwillputoutsomekindofproposalonthis.

#Concludingdiscussions

Weonlyhave30minutesleft.Whowouldliketogiveasummarytalk?Wedonthavealotof
time.Socouldyoukeepitshortandsimple?

Maybewecouldclosebyhavingadiscussionabouthowto,therewassomediscussionabout
communicationplatformsandwherewecometogetherandhowwestaycurrentwitheach
other.

Ithinkwehavehadverygooddiscussionsthisweekend.Ihopewehaveimprovedour
relationshipsgreatly.Iwouldliketotalkabouthowwecouldcontinuetodothatgoingforward,
howwecancontinuetohaveopencollaboration.

Mysuggestionwouldbe,notreddit.

IbelievethatbecauseofthemarketcapofBitcoiniscontinuingtogrow,IthinkthatBitcoin
enterpriseandcompaniesaretheenginesbehindthemarketcapgrowth.Theyaretheones
mostincentivizedtoprotectBitcoinanditsecosystem.Iamproposingforthisplatformor
organization,thattheBitcoincompaniesandenterprises,whetherminersorexchangesor
applicationdevelopers,theyarethemajorparticipantsinthisplatform.Tostartoutwith,asthe
firststep,wecanfirstsetupsomekindofsocialcircleasthefirststep.Itskindoflikea
consortium.Wecanconnectthroughemailandwechatorskype.Thereareallkindsof
mediumsandtechnologyavailableforustosetupthiscirclesothatwecanstartcommunication
channelsfirst.SotheparticipantsshouldbethemajorplayersintheBitcoinindustryandthey
havetopayacertainfeetojointhissocialcircle.Soitssemipublic,butitsnotfree.Onthe
Coreside,theycansendsomerepresentativetorepresentCoredevelopmentandtojointhis
socialcircle.Andthenwetrytowithinthiscircle,wetrytoworktogetherandwithcoordination
andtrytoestablishsomekindoffoundationlikeentity.Iknowyouguyshatetheideaofa
foundation.Foralackofword,Iamusingthewordfoundationasareference.Sothissocial
circleismonitoredbyitschairmananditssecretary,tohostthecommunicationbetween
differentpartiesandcompanieswithinthatcircle.Sothatistheproposalasthefirststep
towardsbuildingthiscommunicationplatform.

Whatdoyouguysthink?

Soundsreasonable.Iguessnothingseriouslywrongwiththat.Ihaveheardsomeconversations
wherepeoplesaidletscreatethat.Nothinghashappenedsofar.

Whowouldliketotaketheinitiativeandsomeonehastodriveit.

MaybeusingtheBitcoinroundtableasthenameoftheorg.

Theycanorganizeeverythingonthelegallevel.Howitwillbemoreefficienttoopenit.Andthen
wecanjustdecide..OrhowtheychoosetheChairman,someleaders,etc.Andwhowillitbe?
SoanysuggestionsfromtheCoredevelopersideaboutthisproposal?

Thepayforaccesscomponentofitmayhavebadopticstothepublicwhenit'spresentedthat
way.Participationinanygrouphascost,regardless.Therearealotofcostthatpeoplehave
incurredtocomeheretothismeeting.Weshouldbecautiousinhowthisorganizationissetup
andpresented,toavoidbadimage.

Maybeit'snotpaid,maybeit'ssponsorship.


Ithinkthatthereis,it'susefultohaveapaycomponenttoprovideaneutralaccesscontrol
mechanism.Theargumentwouldbethat"ifthepaylevelistoohigh,thenthataccesscontrol
mechanismisnotparticularlyneutral".Ithinkthiscanbeworkedthroughandsolved.Ithinkit's
apotentialsourceofissuesthatshouldbeconsidered.

ThiscircleistryingtoprotectthecommercialinterestsoftheBitcoincompaniesandindustry.I
believethatbitcoininthelongrunisdrivenbythoseenterprisesandcompanies.

Theyareintheinitialstageofbitcoindevelopment.It'sstillahackerculture.It'sinformal.
Casual.It'srelaxed.Butnow,atthispoint,initshistory,hebelievesthatitshouldbecomemore
formalandformallystructured,drivenbycommercialinterest.Sotherecouldbeatransition
fromahackercultureto...

Ithinkthattheremaybeamistakenbeliefthattheseareincompatiblecultures.Ithinkthatifyou
lookatalltheprotocolsoftheinternet,thenyouwillseethatalmostallofthemaredevelopedin
thecontextofIETF,liketheHTTPprotocols.MostoftheattendeesattheIETFmeetingsare
workingforsomeofthelargesttechcompaniesintheworldlikeGoogle,MicrosoftandCisco.
Theyparticipateinanopenenvironment,talkingabouttechnology.Thereisnofeetoparticipate
inIETF.Individualmeetingsthemselveshaveconferencefees,butthemailinglistsareopen.
ThisenvironmentistheoneinwhichtheInternetisdeveloped.Iagreethatbitcoinasitgrows
needstobecomemoreformalandprofessional.However,therearemanyformsthatthiscan
take.Itdefinitelyneedstobeheavilydrivenbycommercialplayers,notvolunteerism.However,
thisdoesnotnecessarilymeanthatyouhaveahierarchicalsystemofauthoritywherean
electedbodyisinchargeofBitcoinorsomethinglikethat.AnexampleofthisishowtheInternet
isorganized.

It'sworthpointingoutthatweareallhere.Well,allofusherearehere.Thismeetupwasableto
bearranged,withoutthatcentralorganization.Itwasnotatopdownmeeting.

Thisideaof"hackerculture"isactuallynotreallywhattheIETFandthesekindsofprocess
organizations...Ithinkthisisactuallyjusttheoutcomeofprofessionaldevelopmentinasituation
whereyoucannotimposeonotherpeople.IthinkthisiswhattheInternetprotocolsawaswell.
Thereareprofessionalsdevelopingthesetechnologies.Theyarenotinasituationwherethey
canimpose.

Decentralizedprofessionaldevelopment,whichhappenstolookhackery,becausethehacker
behaviorisdecentralized,butnotnecessarilyprofessional.Soitiskindofsimilar.

Hebelievesthatthishybridmodelisagoodidea.Healsobelievesthattheycancoexistina
healthyandorganicway.Hewasthinkingthatmaybetherecouldbetwopaymentanddonation
structuressothatwecancollectandsolicitfundingsforthisforum.Maybesomeindustry
companiescanpayafeetojointhiscircleorsomeotherscanjustdonateorsponsorthisentity.

Theywouldpayafeetojoin.Forthosewhopayafee,theywouldhaveavotingright.Forthose
whodonate,theydonothaveavotingright.Andtheopinionorvoicecomingoutfromthis
organizationorcircle,theyonlyrepresentthemselves,andtheydonotrepresenttheentire
Bitcoincommunitybecausethereareotherorganizationsorothergroupswithinthatcommunity.
Sothat'shisidea.

So.....like,onethingIwanttosay,...let'sdiscussmore,we'renotgoingtosolveallofthisin5
minutes.

So...theonethingtothinkaboutisthattoday,bitcoinissmallandfriendly.Weknoweachother.
Weknowthosecompanies.Relativelysmall.Waitafewyears.Youhaven'tseen"more"my
friend.Sothepointisthat,ifyoulookatHTTP,nowthereareverybigpowerfulcompanies
involvedlikeMicrosoft.AndtheywanttocontrolHTTP.AndIBMwantstocontrolitseparately.
Bitcoinisfinance.Whenwethinkaboutsettingupanorganization,we'rethinkingabout
ourselves.Butin5yeartime,thatwillincludeGoldmanSachsandMicrosoft.Andtheyeach
send20brilliantlymanipulativepeopleandtheywillbribepoliticiansandspreadmayhemand
chaos.WetheBitcoinworldwilllosecontrolofthisorganization.GoldmanSachswillcreate40
subsidiaries,theywilleachpaytheXmembershipfee,andthentheywillnowhavetheentire
voteoftheorganization.Soweneedtobemindfulofthissortofsituation.TheInternetIETF
thingsforexamplehaveevolvedtoallowfortechnicaldevelopmenttoproceedinawaythat
promotesgoodtechnicaloutcomesthataregoodforuserseventhoughsomeoftheengineers
workforBigEvilCorpslikeMicrosoft.

Aretheyindependenteventhoughtheyareworkingforbigcompanies?

Somewhat.That'stheobjective,anyway,withIETF.Ohreally?

Thisdiscussioniscriticalandimportant.Therehavebeenmanygoodideasexpressed.We
can'tsolveeverythinghererightnow.There'stoomuchtodiscuss.Weshouldnothavethe
expectationofsolvingeverythinghere.

Wehavethreeminutes.Wehavetofindaplacetopark,thenwehavetowalk.Stanfordisdown
thestreetbutitwilltake30minutestogetthere.TheStanfordcampusishuge.Isentthe
parkinginstructions.That'stheclosesttothebuilding,sopleasecheckyouremail.

Hispointisthatitdoesn'tmatterthatinthefuturesomekindofbiggercompanylikeGoldman
Sachstryingtotakeover.It'sinevitablethatsomecompanywilltrytotakecontrolofthe
organization.Atthatpoint,wejusthavetomoveonandformanotherentityandanothergroup.
It'snotgoingtobetheonlysocialcircleintheBitcoinecosystem.Therecouldbemanyofthese.
It'snotgoingtobethattheytakeoveroneandthentheygettotakeoverBitcoin.Theycantry
whatevertheywanttotakeBitcoinover.Wecanalwayschangeourtactics.Wecanmoveto
othermediums.

Aslongastheorganizationdoesn'tgivetheimpressionithascontrolovertheprotocol.

Theywilltrytosetupacircle.Theyareaskingyouwhethertodoitatthispoint.Theydon'tknow
ifyouarewillingtojoinanorganization.

heyareofferingaproposalthatwecanformthistogetheratthispoint.

Ithinkweareinterestedinanyandallopportunitiestocollaborate.

Wewilltrytosetupacommercialcircle.WehopethattheCoredeveloperswilljoin.

Intheafternoon,wecancomebackafterwevisitStanford.Wehaveanhourgapandwecan
comebackhere.Ihavereservedtheconferenceroomforthewholeday.Wecanstillcome
backhere.Googleplexisnotveryfarfromhere.Ittakes30mintogetthereorless.Wecanstill
comeback.

#DanBonehdiscussion

<http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016julybitcoindevelopersminersmeeting/danboneh/>

#GoogleTechTalk

<http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016julybitcoindevelopersminersmeeting/jihanwugooglete
chtalk/>

#Othersession

Minershavesomeothereventslaterthisevening.Perhapsasagroupweshouldthinkabout
anyclosingsummaries?

Whatdowewanttosaytoanyjournaliststhatask?Ithinkitisimportanttopresentthisassome
peoplegatheringtogetherwhohavebeeninthespaceforalongtime,whohavehadtroublein
thepastwithcommunication.Byseeingpeoplefacetoface,andtalkingaboutthings,ithelpsus
discuss.

AcommentImadebefore,astorytotaketoajournalistlater,thatbitcoinisaglobal
decentralizedsystemanditworksjustfineaslongaswedoourownthing.Butitworksbetterif
wecollaborate.Withthisweekend,wewereabletogettoknoweachotherbetter,wewereable
tounderstandmanyofthethingswehadincommon.Wewereabletoopenmorelinesof
communication.Wewereabletoimproveourfriendshipsandthesethingsingeneralaregood
forbitcoin.

InZurich,wedidafulltranscript,butwealsopublishedasummaryofthemeeting,inthe
followingformat:
<https://bitcoincore.org/en/meetings/2016/05/20/>
..ifwedothesameforourgathering,itwouldbemuchshorterthantheaboveexample.

WepublishedtheZurichsummaryfirst,andthefulltranscriptwaspublishedweekslater.In
Zurich,ittookabouttwoweeksIthinktogooverthewholething.

#EventSummary

Overthelastfewdays,someBitcoindevelopersandminersgottogetherforasocialgathering
toimprovecommunication,friendship,andtodosomeCaliforniasightseeing.Wetalkedabout
wherebitcoinisandwherebitcoinisgoing.Welearnedalotfromeachother.Wealsovisited
StanfordtoattendacryptographytalktolearnmoreaboutpotentialimprovementsforBitcoin,
aswellastheGooglecampustogiveapresentationandtalkaboutBitcoin.Wehadmany
informaldiscussionsamongstourselvesabouttopicssuchasminingdecentralization,evolution
oftheBitcoinprotocol,safetyimprovementsandprogressforbothsoftandhardforks,aswell
asimprovingcommunicationandcooperationacrosstheBitcoinecosystemsuchasnew
venuestoworktogetherinunison.WethinkthatBitcoin'sstrengthcomesfromtheconsensusof
itsparticipants.ManyofusplantoattendScalingBitcoin3inMilan,Italyandeveryonewould
liketocontinuewithgatheringsliketheseandothersinthefuturewithallpartsoftheBitcoin
ecosystem.Wehopetobereleasingnotesinthenearfutureforpartsofthecommunitythat
werenotattending.

2016ScalingBitcoin