Академический Документы
Профессиональный Документы
Культура Документы
hbswk.hbs.edu/item/bernie-madoff-explains-himself
10/24/2016
One December evening in 2011, while preparing a lesson plan, Harvard Business School professor Eugene Soltes
picked up the phone for his weekly conversation with Bernie Madoff.
Soltes, who was doing an in-depth investigation on white-collar crime, had been interviewing Madoff every
Wednesday evening for several months. Madoff, a renowned stockbroker turned fraudster, conducted the phone
calls from FCI Butner, a medium-security federal correctional institution in North Carolina. At the time, he was
serving the third year of a 150-year prison sentence for orchestrating the biggest Ponzi scheme in history.
Madoff is an extreme case in many ways, but in other ways, he is just someone who fell prey to
biases and the tendency to rationalize
Madoffs phone-time allowance was limited, and he saved much of it for his conversations with Soltes. They
conversed in 15-minute chunks, the maximum amount of uninterrupted call time that the prison would allow.
The professor and the felon shared a genuine, geeky interest in financial economics. Sometimes they discussed the
early days of Madoffs career, which began in 1960. Other times they chatted about new books, academic journal
articles, or recent events in the news. But that evening Soltes led the conversation with a specific question: How
would you explain your actions and misconduct to a group of students?
Interviewed in prison, Bernie Madoff reflects on his crime. ( Click on the sound icon to mute and unmute the
recording.)
Madoffs three-minute response, posted here, is an extemporaneous reflection on accountability. In hindsight, when
I look back, it wasnt as if I couldnt have said no, Madoff says toward the end of a recording punctuated with many
halting instances of uhh and you know.
He doesnt sound remorseful in the recording, but he displays some self-recognition. It wasnt like I was being
blackmailed into doing something, or that I was afraid of getting caught doing it, he continues. I, sort of, you know, I
sort of rationalized that what I was doing was OK, that it wasnt going to hurt anybody.
Soltes now plays the recording for students in his MBA and Executive Education courses. His goal is not to garner a
discussion of Madoffs massive crime, but rather to help students realize something important about themselves. In
short, the recording shows students that knowing the difference between right and wrong is not sufficient to avoid
falling into the behavioral traps people can face when under pressure to succeed.
Answering a single question, Madoff exhibits several all-too-familiar cognitive biases, psychological tendencies that
can lead to irrational behavior. In a three-minute recording, we hear Madoff describe a multitude of common
biases, says Soltes, the Jakurski Family Associate Professor of Business Administration at HBS. Theyre amplified
biases on steroids, in Madoffs case. But theyre biases that we all have, that we all experience.
For example:
1/3
Ambition: In the recording, he describes his ambition, which is something that every single person at
Harvard Business Schooland really every person aspiring to be successful in businesscan relate to,
Soltes says.
Overconfidence: I built my confidence up to a level where Ifelt thatthere was nothing thatI couldnt
attain, Madoff recalls in the recording.
The slippery slope that enables a small transgression to grow into a bigger one: I started to go off
the tracks, and I was able to convince myself that this was, you know, a temporary situation, Madoff says.
Lack of self-control: Iprobablyjust didnt give it enough thought or wasnt frightened enoughto say to
myself, I cant, you know, I cant do this, I cant take the risk, Madoff says.
Rationalization of iffy decisions: The piece thats most humbling in the recording is the realization of
rationalization, Soltes says. He recognizes now that it was all rationalization.
Once students recognize that this is a smart guy, and he didnt need to do what he did, but he still did it anyway,
there is a degree of humility in the classroom, Soltes says. Madoff is an extreme case in many ways, but in other
ways, he is just someone who fell prey to biases and the tendency to rationalize.
2/3
3/3