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HUMANDRUGTESTINGBYTHECIA,1977

HEARINGS
BEFORETHE
SUBCOMMITTEEON
HEALTHANDSCIENTIFICKESEAKCH
orTHE
COMMITTEEONHUMANRESOURCES
UNITEDSTATESSENATE
NINETYFIFTHCONGRESS
FIRSTSESSION
ON
S.1893
TOAMENDTHEPUBLICHEALTHSEBVICEACTTOESTABLISH
THEPRESIDENT'SCOMMISSIONFORTHEPROTECTIONOF
HUMANSUBJECTSOFBIOMEDICALANDBEHAVIORALRE
SEARCH,ANDFOROTHERPURPOSES

SEPTEMBER20AND21,1977

Printedfortheo*eoftheCommitteeonHamiAResource*

U.S.GOVERNMENTPRINTINGOFFICE
WASHINGTON:19TT

CONTENTS

TextofS.1893.'4
CHRONOLOGICALLISTOFWITNESSES
Tuesdat,September20,1977
Goldwater,Hon.BarryM.,aU.S.SenatorfromtheStateofArizona38
Geschickter,CharlesF.,Sr.,M.D.,GeschickterFundforMedicalRe
search,professoremeritusofresearchpathology,GeorgetownUniver
sityMedicalCenter,commander,U.S.Navyandchiefpathologist,U.S.
Navy,accompaniedbyPlatoChaceris,Esq.,HundleyftCacheris,P.G.,
Washington,D.C.;andCharlesF.Geschickter,Jr.,Esq.,Brault,Lewis,
GeschickterftPalmer,Fairfax,Va44
Rhodes,David,formerCIAemployee,accompaniedbyPhillipGoldman,
formerCIAemployee100
Lashbrook,Robert,M.D.,formerCIAemployee,accompaniedbyCharles
Siragusa,formerDeputyCommissioner,FederalBureauofNarcotics;
andGeorgeBelk,forme?BureauofNarcoticsagent,apanel11
Wednesday,September21,1977
Turner,Adm.Stansfield,Director,CentralIntelligenceAgency,accom
paniedbyHarryE.Gordon,OfficeofResearchandDevelopment;Ray
Reardon,OfficeofSecurity;FrankLaubinger,OfficeofTechnicalServ
ices;AlanBrody,OfficeofInspectorGeneral;andLyleL.Miller,acting
legislativecounsel123

Siemer,DeanneC,GeneralCounsel,DepartmentofDefense148
Gottlieb,Sidney,M.DformerCIAagent,accompaniedbyTerryF.
Lenser,Esq.,Wald,HarkraderftRoss,Washington,D.C169
Bensinger,PeterC,Administrator,DrugEnforcementAdministration,
accompaniedbyJosephKreuger,ActingChiefInspector,DrugEnforce
mentAdministration218
STATEMENTS
Bartels,John,R.,Jr.,previousActingAdministratoroftheU.S.Drug
EnforcementAdministration,swornwrittenstatement41
Bensinger,PeterC,Administrator,DrugEnforcementAdministration,ac
companiedbyJosephKreuger,ActingChiefInspector,DrugEnforce
mentAdministrationfc218
Geschickter,CharlesF.,Sr.,M.D.,GeschickterFundforMedicalRe
search,professoremeritusofresearchpathology,GeorgetownUniversity
MedicalCenter,commander,U.S.Navyandchiefpathologist,U.S.
Navy,accompaniedbyPlatoCacheris,Esq.,HundleyftCacheris,P.G.,
Washington,D.C;andCharlesF.Geschickter,Jr.,Esq.,Brault,Lewis,
GeschickterftPalmer,Fairfax,Va44
Goldwater,Hon.BarryM.,aU.S.SenatorfromtheStateofArizona38
Gottlieb,Sidney,M.D.,formerCIAagent,accompaniedbyTerryF.
Lenser,Esq.,Wald,HarkraderftRoss,Washington,D.C169
Preparedstatement_..206
Lashbrook,Robert,M.D.,formerCIAemployee,accompaniedbyCharles
Siragusa,formerDeputyCommissioner,FederalBureauofNarcotics;

andGeorgeBelk,formerBureauofNarcoticsagent,apanel110
Siemer,DeanneC,GeneralCounsel,DepartmentofDefense148
Rhodes,David,formerCIAemployee,accompaniedbyPhillipGoldman,
formerCIAemployee100
(HI)

IV

Psge

ilt

Turner,Adm.Stansfield,Director,CentralIntelligenceAgency,accom
paniedbyHarryE.Gordon,OfficeofResearchandDevelopment;Ray
Reardon,OfficeofSecurity;FrankLaubinger,OfficeofTechnicalServ
vices;AlanBrody,OfficeofInspectorGeneral;andLyleL.Miller,
actinglegislativecounsel_,123
ADDITIONALINFORMATION
Articles,publications,etcetera:
"HypersensitivityPhenomenonProducedbyStress:The'Negative
Phase'Reaction,"byCharlesF.Geschickter,M.D.,W.Edward
O'Malley,M.D.,Ph.D.,andEugeneP.Rubacky,Ph.D.,fromthe

AmericanJournalofClinicalPathology,vol.34,vol.1,July1969.46
"RoleofMucinolysisinCollagenDisease,byCharlesF.Geschickter,
M.DPanayiotaA.Athanasiadou,M.D.,andW.EdwardO'Malley,
Ph.D.,fromtheAmericanJournalofClinicalPathology,vol.30,
No.2,August1958.__54
"UseofAminoAcidAntagonistsfortheInhibitionofTumor
Growth,"byCharlesF.Geschickter,M.D.,MurrayM.Copeland,
M.D.,andJeanScholler,B.S.,fromtheBulletin,GeorgetownUni
versityMedicalCenter,No.2,AugustSeptember1951.73
Communicationsto:
Kennedy,Hon.EdwardM.,aU.S.SenatorfromtheStateofMass
achusetts,from:
Miller,LyleL.,actinglegislativecounsel,CentralIntelligence
Agency,September27,1977(withenclosure)136
Siemer,DeanneC,GeneralCounsel,DepartmentofDefense,
September20,1977(withenclosure)156
PresidentoftheUnitedStates,fromNicholasdeB.Katzenbach,
UnderSecretaryofState;JohnW.Gardner,SecretaryofHealth,
Education,andWelfare;andRichardHelms,DirectorofCentral
IntelligenceAgency,March24,1977.._137

HUMANDRUGTESTINGBYTHECIA,1977

TUESDAY,SEPTEMBER20,1977

U.S.Senate,
SubcommitteeonHealthandScientificResearch
oftheCommitteeonHumanResources,
Washington,D.C.
Thesubcommitteemet,pursuanttonotice,at9:10a.m.,inroom
318,RussellSenateOfficeBuilding,SenatorEdwardM.Kennedy
(chairmanofthesubcommittee)presiding.
Present:SenatorsKennedyandSchweiker.
OpeningStatementofSenatorKennedy
SenatorKennedy.Wewillcometoorder.
TodaytheHealthandScientificResearchSubcommitteeresumes
itsinquiryintothebiologicandbehavioralresearchactivitiesofthe
CentralIntelligenceAgencyandtheDepartmentofDefense.The
eventswewillnearaboutoverthenext2daysoccurredbetween1952
and1972.Theyhadtheirorigininadifferenttimewhichhaddif
ferentvaluesandrealities.Butitisimportantforustofullyunder
standtheseeventstodaybecausetheyraisefundamentalquestions
aboutthekindofsocietyweareandwanttobecome.
Weareafreepeople,livinginanopensociety.Butsomeofourmost
cherishedfreedomshavebeenthreatenedbytheseCIAactivities.
Thequestionisnotwhetherafreesocietycanaccommodatethe
needforcovertintelligenceactivities.Thequestionishowthose
activitiescanbemadeaccountable;howtheycanbecarriedoutwith
outjeopardizingtheveryfreedomstheyaresupposedtoprotect.
IntheUnitedStates,theendsneverhave,andneverwill,justify
themeans.Freedomcanbeerodedbyinternalexcessesaswellasby
externalthreats.Thestorywewillhearinthesenext2daysisofwell

motivated,patrioticAmericanswho,bytheirwork,erodedthe
freedomofindividualsandofinstitutionsinthenameofNational
security.
Asaresult,individualAmericansfromallsociallevels,highand
low,weremadetheunwittingsubjectsofdrugtests;scoresofuni
versitieswereusedtofurtherCIAresearchobjectiveswithouttheir
knowledge,thusthreateninginafundamentalwaytheirtraditional
independenceandintegrity;otherGovernmentagencies,suchasthe
BureauofNarcotics,theNationalInstitutesofHealth,andthe
InternalRevenueService,wereusedtofurthertheprogramsand
missionoftheCentralIntelligenceAgency.
Theseprojectswerenotthecreationoflowlevelagencybureau
cratsworkingagainstthewishesorwithouttheknowledgeofthe
Agency'sleadership.Thecollectionofactivitiesnowknownas
(l)

MKULTRAwereapproved,afterpersonalreview,includingbrief
ingsbytheDirectoroftheAgency,Mr.Dulles.
ItiswellknownthatanotherCIADirector,Mr.Helms,approved
thedestructionoftheMKULTRArecordsin1972.Thishasmade
thetaskofreconstructingthoseeventsverydifficultbothforthe
CIAandforinterestedSenatecommittees.Whatisclearnow,from
thewitnesseswehaveheardandwillhear,andfromthefoxrecords
thathavebeenfound,isthefollowing:
1.WhenMKULTRAwasphasedout,itwasreplacedbyMK

SEARCH.MKSEARCHrepresentedacontinuationofalimited
numberoftheULTRAprojects.Itisnowclearthattherecordsof
thisprojecthavealsobeendestroyed.Infact,therecordsofalldrug
researchprojectsavailabletotheDirectoroftheTechnicalServices
DivisionoftheCIAweredestroyedatthesametime.
2.Someoperationalactivitiesutilizingthefruitsofthisresearch
werecarriedout.*
3.Thebulkoftheresearcheffortlednowhere.
4.TheBureauofNarcoticswasheavilyinvolvedinallthedrug
projectsinvolvingunwittingsubjects.
5.TheCIAhadavailablecertaindocumentspertainingtothese
act:vitiesin1975,whenthissubcommittee'sinquirybegan,which
theydidnotmakeavailableuntil2weeksago;andthattheAgency
onlydiscoveredthatsomeMKSEARCHmaterialswereavailable
aftertheAugust3hearing.
Itismyhopethatthesenext2daysofhearingswillclosethebook
onthischapteroftheCIA'slife.Wehavetheopportunitytolearn
fromwhathashappened.Wehavetheopportunitytobuildincontrols
sotheseexcesseswillnotoccuragainIfwedonottaketheoppor
tunity,ifwereturntobusinessasusual,thenthenexterosionsofour
freedomandtraditionsmaynotbereversible.
Partoftheobviousinterestofthecontinuationofthese2daysof
hearingsisthatwewillseethatmanyoftheprogramsthatwere
startedintheearly1950's,manyofthemcontinuedintotheearly
partofthe1970's,andduringthisperiodoftimeweseetheperver
sionofmanydifferentgovernmentalagencies,andwherewefound
atleastsomeprogramswerestarted,lookedliketheyhadalimited
lifeandthenwerereallyphasedout,thatthecontinuationofthose
activitiescontinuedonandonandon.

Ithinkweareconcernedabouttheperversionofthosevarious
agenciesofGovernment.Weareconcernedmostofallaboutwhatthe
impactoftheseactivitieshavebeenonunwittingAmericansubjects
duringthiswholeperiodoftime.Eventhoughwewillhearaboutthe
seriesofdifferentteststhattookplace,andwewiiltrackhowthose
testsbegan,howtheycontinuedand,insomeinstances,howthey
werephasedout,wewillseeacontinuation,Ithink,ofactivitiesthat
willfailtoreallyprotectparticularlytheunwittingsubjectsthatwere
involvedinmanyoftheseprograms,andthatisamatterofobvious
seriousconcernabouttheactivities,particularlywhentheywenton
forsuchaprofoundandextensiveperiodoftime.
Ofcourse,alwayswehavetoaskourselveswhatwasreallygained
fromthesekindsofprograms,particularlyinthehealthfield,ata
timewhenweseescarceresourcesandweseetheexpendituresof
hundredsofthousandsofdollars,millionsofdollarsreally,interms
ofhealthfunction,andweseevirtuallylittleifanykindofaccounta

bilityinmanyoftheseareas.Noonedoubtsthatthereareserious
kindsofnationalsecurityissueswhichareraisedinthewholequestion
ofbehavioralcontrol.Duringthecourseofthehearingtomorrow,
ininquiringofMr.Turner,wearegoingtoinquirealsoaboutwhatis
essentialintermsofprovidingsomedegreeofprotectionforthe
securityoftheAmericanpeopleinthisareaofbehavioralresearch.
[Acopyofthebilldealingwiththesubjectfollows:]

fchnCONGRESSl+r%*\4\
18xSttUoKS.1893

INTHESENATEOFTHEUNITEDSTATES
Jclt10(legislativeday,Mat18),1977
Mr.Kennedt(forhimself,Mr.Javitr,Mr.Pell,andMr.Sciiweiker)intro
ducedthefollowingbill;whichwasreadtwiceandreferredtotheCom
mitteeonHumanResources

ABILL
ToamendthePublicHealthServiceActtoestablishthePresi
dent'sCommissionfortheProtectionofHumanSubjectsof
BiomedicalandBehavioralResearch,andforotherpurposes.
jBeitenactedbytheSenateandHouseofRepresenta
2tivesoftheUnitedStatesofAmericainCongressassembled,
3ThatthisActmaybecitedasthe"President'sCommission
4fortheProtectionofHumanSubjectsofBiomedicaland
5BehavioralResearchActof1977".
6AMENDMENTTOTHEPUBLICHEALTHSERVICEACT
7Sec.2.ThePublicHealthServiceActisamendedby
8addingaftertitleXVIIthefollowingnewtitle:
II

1
3

2
1"TITLEXVHIPRESIDENT'SCOMMISSION>FOR
2THEPROTECTIONOFHUMANSUBJECTSOF
3BIOMEDICALANDBEHAVIORALRESEARCH
4"ESTABLISHMENTOFCOMMISSION
5"Sec.1801.(a)(1)ThereisestablishedaCommission
6tobeknownasthePresident'sCommissionfortheProtec
7tionofHumanSubjectsofBiomedicalandBehavioralRe
8search(hereinafterinthispartreferredtoasthe'Commis
9sion').
10"(b)TheCommissionshallbecomposedofeleven
11membersappointedbythePresidentbyandwiththeadvice
12andconsentoftheSenate.ThePresidentshallappoint

13"(1)five(andnotmorethanfive)membersof
14theCommissionfromindividuals
15"(A)whoareorhavebeenengagedinbio
16medicalorbehavioralresearchinvolvinghuman
17subjects,and
18"(B)whoareespeciallyqualifiedtoserveon
19theCommissionbyvirtueoftheirtraining,experi
20ence,orbackground;and
2i"(2)sixmembersoftheCommissionfromindi
22viduals
23"(A)whoarenotandhaveneverbeenen
24gagedinbiomedicalorbehavioralresearchinvolv
25inghumansubjects,and

6fa
I

3
1"(B)whoaredistinguishedinthefieldsof
2medicine,law,ethics,theology,thebiological,phy*
3ical,behavioralandsocialsciences,philosophy,Jni
4inanities,healthadministration,government,and1
5publicaffairs.
6"(c)Noindividoalwhoisafulltimeemployeeofthe
7UnitedStatesmaybeappointedasamemberoftheCom*
8mission.<>
9"(d)Priortotheappointmentofanindividualas>a
10memberoftheCommissionundersubsection(b),eachsuch
11individualshallreceiveallagencyanddepartmentsecurity
12clearancesnecessarytoassuresuchindividual'saccess,aaa
13memberoftheCommission,toinformation(asdefinedin
14section1811).
15"(e)UntilsuchtimeasthePresidentactstorappoint
16membersoftheCommissionundersubsection(b),those
17'membersoftheNationalCommissionfortheProtection.of
18HumanSubjectsofBiomedicalandBehavioralResearch,

19whoareservinguponthedateofenactmentoftheXAct,
20aredeemedmembersoftheCommission:Provided,That
21noclassifiedinformationbemadeavailabletosuchmem
22benthrougharequestoftheCommissionuntilappropriate
"23securityclearancesbeobtainedbysuch,members.
24"(f)ThetermofofficeofeachmemberoftheCom
25missionshallbefouryears;exceptthat

4
1"(1)thetermsofofficeofmembersfirsttaking
2officeshallbeginonthedateofappointmentandshall
3expire,asdesignatedbythePresidentatthetimeof
4theirappointment,fourattheendoftwoyears,four
5attheendofthreeyears,andthreeattheendoffour
6years;
7"(2)thetermofofficeofeachmemberappointed

8tofillavacancyoccurringpriortotheexpirationof
9thetermforwhichhispredecessorwasappointedshall
10beappointedfortheremainderofsuchterm;and
11"(8)amemberwhosetermhasexpiredmayserve
12untilhissuccessorhasbeenappointed.
13"(g)(!)ThemembersoftheCommissionshallelect
14aChairmanandoneViceChairmanfromamongthemselves.
15EithertheChairmanorViceChairmanmaybeascientist;
1*howeverbothshallnotbescientists.
17"(2)SevenmembersoftheCommissionshallconati
18tuteaquorumforbusiness,butalessernumbermayconduct
19hearings.
20"(3)TheCommissionshallmeetatthecallofthe
21Chairmanoratthecallofamajorityofitsmembers.
22"(4)Noindividualmaybeappointedtoserveasa
23memberoftheCommission,ifsuchindividualhasserved
24fortwotermsoffouryearseach.

8I

51
1"(5)Avac&iicyontheCommissionshallnotaffectthe
2authorityoractivitiesoftheCommission.J
3"(h)MembersoftheCommissionshallreceivecompen^
4sationataratetobefixedbytheConimisson,butnotex
5ceedingloranyday(includingtraveltime)thedailyequiv|
6alentoftheeffectiverateforGS18oftheGeneralSched
7ulewhileengagedintheactualperformanceoftheduties*J
SvestedintheCommission,andshallbereimbursedfortravel,,,
9subsistence,andothernecessaryexpensesincurredintheper*
10formanceofsuchduties.f
11"(i)TheSecretaryofHealth,Education,andWelfare,
12theSecretaryofDefense,theDirectorofCentralIntelli|
13gence,theDirectoroftheOfficeofScienceandTechnology
14Policy(establishedunderthePresidentialScienceandTech
^nologyAdvisoryOrganization'Actof1976),theAdminis
16tratorofVeterans'Affairs,andtheDirectoroftheNational
17ScienceFoundationshalleachdesignateanindividualto
18serveasanonvoting,exofficioadvisertotheCommission.

19(j)TheCommissionmaysecuredirectlyfromany
20departmentoragencyinformationnecessarytoenableitto
21carryoutitsduties.UponthewrittenrequestoftheChair
22manoftheCommission,oreightmembersthereof,each
23departmentoragencyshallfurnishallinformationrequested

:l

9
6
1bytheCommissionwhichisnecessarytoenabletheCom
2'missiontocarryoutitsduties."
3"DutiesandFunctionsoftheCommission
4"general
5"Sec.1802.(a)(1)(A)TheCommissionshallcon
6ductacomprehensiveinvestigationandstudytoidentify
7thebasicethicalprincipleswhichshouldunderliethecon
8ductofbiomedicalandbehavioralresearchinvolving

9humansubjects.
10"(B)Incarryingouttheprovisionsofsubparagraph
11(A),theCommissionshallconsideratleastthefollowing:
12"(i)Theboundariesbetweenbiomedicalorbe
13havioralresearchinvolvinghumansubjectsandthe
34acceptedandroutinepracticeofmedicine;
*5"(ii)Theroleofassessmentofriskbenefitcriteria
36inthedeterminationoftheappropriatenessofresearch
17involvinghumansubjects;
18"("*)Appropriateguidelinesfortheselectionof
19humansubjectsforparticipationinbiomedicaland
20behavioralresearch;
21""(iv)Appropriatemechanismstoassurethefull
22exerciseoftherightsandfullprotectionoftheinterests
23'ofhumansubjectsofbiomedicalandbehavioral
24research;

10
7
1"(v)Thenatureanddefinitionofinformedcon*
2sentinvarioussettings;
3"(vi)Theprinciplesidentifiedanddevelopedby;
4theNationalCommissionfortheProtectionofHuman
5SubjectsofBiomedicalandBehavioralResearch;and*
6"(vii)AllrelevantworkoftheNationalCommis
7sionfortheProtectionofHumanSubjectsofBiomedi*
ScalandBehavioralResearch.
9"(2)TheCommissionshalldevelopcomprehensiveand
10uniformpolicies,proceduresandguidelineswhichshould
11befollowedinbiomedicalandbehavioralresearchinvolving
12humansubjectstoassurethatitisconductedinaccordance
13withprinciplesidentifiedbytheCommissionundersubsec
14tion(a)(1)(A)andconcerninganyothermatterpertain^
15ingtothefullexerciseoftherightsandfullprotectionof
16theinterestsofhumansubjectsofsuchresearch.

17"(3)TheCommissionshalladvise,consultwith,and
18makerecommendationstoanydepartmentoragencycon
19cerningsuchadministrativeorotheractionasmaybeappro
20priateornecessarytoapplythepolicies,proceduresand
21guidelinesdevelopedunderparagraph(2)tobiomedical
22andbehavioralresearchconducted,fundedorregulatedunder:
23programsadministeredbysuchdepartmentsoragencies,:
24andconcerninganyothermatterpertainingtothefullexer

11

8
1ciseoftherightsandfullprotectionoftheinterestsofhuman
2subjectsofbiomedicalandbehavioralresearch.
3"(4)TheCommissionshall,fromtimetotime,monitor
4theimplementationofthosepolicies,proceduresandguide

5linesrecommendedbytheCommissionunderparagraph(3).
6"(b)(1)TheCommissionshallinvestigateandstudy
7biomedicalandbehavioralresearchconducted,supportedor
8regulatedunderprogramsadministeredbyanydepartmentor
9agencyandinvolvingchildren,prisoners,militaryperson^
10nel,andtheinstitutionalizedmentallyinfirmtodetermine
11"(A)Thenatureoftheconsentobtainedfromsuch
12personsortheirlegalrepresentativesbeforesuchpersons
13wereinvolvedinsuchresearch;
14<;(B)Theadequacyoftheinformationgiventhem
15respectingthenatureandpurposeoftheresearch,pro
16cedurestobeused,risksanddiscomforts,anticipated
17benefitsfromtheresearch,andothermattersnecessary
18forinformedconsent;and
19"(C)Thecompetenceandthefreedomoftheper
20sonstomakeachoicefororagainstinvolvementinsuch
21research.
22"(2)ThejQonunissionshalladvise,consultwith,and

23makerecommendationstoanydepartmentoragencyto
24establishspecialrequirementsifanyforinformedconsent
25forparticipationinbiomedicalandbehavioralresearchin

'::i

12
9
1volvingchildren,prisoners,militarypersonnelandtheinsti
?.tutionalizedmentallyinfirm.
3"(3)TheCommissionshalladvise,consultwith,and
4makerecommendationstoanydepartmentoragencycon
5cerningsuchadministrativeorotheractionasmaybeap
6propriateornecessarytoassurethatbiomedicalandbe

7havioralresearchconducted,funded,orregulatedunderpro
8gramsadministeredbysuchdepartmentoragencymeetthe
9specialrequirementsforinformedconsent,ifany,identified
10bytheCommissionunderparagraph(2).
11"(c)(1)TheCommissionshallconductaninvestiga
12tionandstudyofthescope,natureandextentofpersonal
13injuriestoanddeathsofindividualswhichwereproximately
14causedbyparticipationinortheactsofothersinvolvedin
15biomedicalandbehavioralresearchprograms.Suchstudy
16shallincluderecommendationsforamethodofcompen
17sationforsuchinjuriesanddeaths.
18"(2)Uponcompletionofthestudy,theCommission
19shallsimultaneouslysubmitcopiesofareportonsuchstudy
20totheappropriatedepartmentsoragenciesandtotheappro#
21priatecommitteesofCongress.
22"(d)(1)(A)TheCommissionshalldevelopcompre;|
23hensiveanduniformpolicies,procedures,andguidelinescon
24sistentwiththispartwhichshouldbefollowedbyeach,|

25departmentoragencyinestablishing,implementing,certify

13

10
1ing,andmonitoringhumaninvestigationreviewboardsin
2thoseentitieswhichreceivefundsfromorwhichareregu
3latedbyeachsuchdepartmentoragency.
4"(B)Incarryingouttheprovisionsofsubparagraph
5(A),theCommissionshallincludeamongothermatters,
6comprehensiveanduniformpolicies,procedures,andguide
7linesconcerning
8"(i)theestablishment,operation,andfunctionsof
9theProtocolReviewSubcommitteeandtheSubjectAd
10visorySubcommitteerequiredundersubsection(c)of
11section1805;
12"(ii)thenatureandextentofpublicparticipation
13inthedecisionmakingprocessofthehumaninvestiga

14tionreviewboardsandsubcommittees;
15"(i)theinclusionofthepublicinmeetingsof
lgsuchboardsandsubcommittees;
17"(iv)Therequirementforpublichearingsbysuch
lgboardsandsubcommittees;and
19"(v)Therequirementofpublicdisclosureof
20decisionsofsuchboardsandsubcommitteesandthe
2inntnreandscopeofsuchdisclosure.
22"(2)Onceadepartmentoragencyhasrequiredthe
23establishmentofhumaninvestigationreviewboardsinthose
24entitieswhichreceivefundsfromorwhichareregulated
25bysuchdepartmentoragency,theCommissionshall,from

14
11
1timetotime,monitorsuchdepartment'soragency'spolicies,
2procedures,guidelines,andotheradministrativeactions.

3"(e)TheCommissionshallcontinuallyreviewthe
4ethical,social,andlegalimplicationsofallbiomedicaland
5behavioralresearchinvolvinghumansubjectsconducted,
6funded,orregulatedbyanydepartmentoragency,andshall
7makeappropriaterecommendationstoanysuchdepartment
8oragency,fortheprotectionofhumansubjectsofsuch
9research.
10"(f)(1)TheCommissionshallcompileacomplete
11listandrecordofdecisionsofhumaninvestigationreview
12boardsandshallannuallypublishreportsofimportantdeci
13sionsanddistributesuchreportstothepublic.
14"(2)TheCommissionshallinsurecommunication
15amonghumaninvestigationreviewboardsasitdetermines
16necessarytopermitsuchboardstobeinformedaboutthe
17activities,standards,anddecisionsofsuchboards.
18"SPECIALSTUDY
19"Sec.1803.(a)TheCommissionshallundertakeacom
20prehensivestudyoftheethical,social,andlagelimplications

21ofadvancesinbiomedicalandbehavioralresearchtech
22nology.Suchstudyshallinclude
23"(1)ananalysisandevaluationofscientific
24andtechnologicaladvancesinpast,present,andpro
25jectedbiomedicalandbehavioralresearchandservices;

SyJLty

15
12
1"(2)ananalysisandevaluationoftheimplications
2ofsuchadvances,bothforindividualsandforsociety;
3"(3)ananalysisandevaluationoflawsandmoral
4andethicalprinciplesgoverningtheuseoftechnology
5inmedicalpractice;
6"(4)ananalysisandevaluationofpublicunder

7standingofandattitudestowardsuchimplicationsand
8lawsandprinciples;and
9"(5)ananalysisandevaluationofimplicationsfor
10publicpolicyofsuchfindingsasaremadebythe
11Commissionwithrespecttoadvancesinbiomedicaland
12behavioralresearchandtechnologyandpublicattitudes
13towardsuchadvances.
14"(b)(1)TheCommissionshallsimultaneouslysubmit
15copiesofareportonsuchstudytotheappropriatedepart
16mentsoragenciesandtotheappropriatecommitteesof
17Congress.
18"(2)TheCommissionmay,ifitdeemsitappropriate,
^19includeinsuchreportrecommendationstosuchdepartments
20oragenciesandtoCongress.
21"deLIVEBYOPHEALTH8EBVICE8
22"Sec.1804.(a)(1)TheCommissionshallidentifythe
23basicethicalprincipleswhichshouldunderliethedeliveryof
24healthservicestopersons.

16
13
1"(2)Incarryingouttheprovisionsofparagraph(1),
2theCommissionshall
3"(A)studythosebasicethicalprinciplesidentified
4insubsection(a)(1)(A)ofsection1802forthepur
5poseofdeterminingtheirapplicationtothedeliveryof
6healthservicestopersons;
7"(B)conductacomprehensiveinvestigationand
8studytoidentifythosebasicethicalprincipleswhich
"(i)shouldunderlinethedeliveryofhealth
10servicestopersons;and
11"(ii)wereeithernotidentifiedundersubsec
12tion(a)(1)(A)ofsection1802orifidentified
13undersuchsubsectionweredeterminedbytheCom
14missiontobeinapplicabletothedeliveryofhealth

15servicestopersons.
16"(b)TheCommissionshalldevelopcomprehensiveand
17uniformpolicies,procedures,andguidelineswhichshouldbe
18followedinthedeliveryofhealthservicestopersonstoasr
19sorethatsuchservicesareperformedinaccordancewith
20principlesidentifiedbytheCommissionundersubsection
21(a)andconcerninganyothermatterpertainingtotherail
22exerciseoftherightsandfullprotectionoftheinterestsof
23personsreceivinghealthservices.
24"(c)TheCommissionshalladvise,consultwith,and,

c.

17

14

1makerecommendationstoanydepartmentoragencythe
2Commissiondeemsappropriateconcerningsuchadministra
3tiveorotheractionasmaybeappropriateornecessaryto
4applythepolicies,procedures,andguidelinesdeveloped
5undersubsection(b)tothedeliveryofhealthservicesto
6personsandconcerninganyothermatterpertainingtothe
7fullexerciseoftherightsandfullprotectionoftheinterests
8ofsuchpersons.
9"(d)TheCommissionshall,fromtimetotime,monitor
10theimplementationofthosepolicies,proceduresandguide
11linesrecommendedbytheCommissionundersubsection(c)
12andadoptedbydepartmentsoragencies.
13"IlumanInvestigationReviewBoards
14"establishmentandoperation
15"Sec.1805.(a)Eachdepartmentoragencyshall,in
16consultationwiththeCommission
17"(1)developpolicies,proceduresandguidelines
18fortheestablishmentandoperationofhumaninvestiga

19tionreviewboardsinentitieswhichreceivefundsfrom
20orwhichareregulatedbysuchdepartmentoragency.
21"(2)requiretheestablishmentandoperationofa
22humaninvestigationreviewboardbyeachsuchentity;
23"(3)takesuchadministrativeorotheractionas
24maybenecessaryorappropriatetorequiretheestab

J?

18

15
1lishmentandeffectiveoperationofahumaninvestiga
2tionreviewboardbyeachsuchentity.
3"(b)(1)Themembersofeachhumaninvestigation
4reviewboardshallbeappointedbythechiefexecutiveofficer
5oftheentityinaccordancewithpolicies,procedures,guide
6lines,andregulationsestablishedbyadepartmentoragency.

7"(2)Nomemberofahumaninvestigationreview
8boardshallbeinvolvedineithertheinitialorcontinuing
9reviewofanactivityinwhichhehasaconflictofinterestas
10definedbytheCommission,excepttoprovidesuchinforma
11f5onasmayberequestedbysuchhumaninvestigationreview
12uoards.
13"(c)Eachhumaninvestigationreviewboardshall
^establishtwosubcommitteesasfollows:
1"(1)aProtocolReviewSubcommittee,whichshall
beresponsibleforapproving,diasapproving,oroffering
17suggestionsandmodificationsofprotocolsforexperi
18mentalprocedures;
1^"(2)aSubjectAdvisorySubcommittee,whichshall
20beprimarilyconcernedwiththeprotectionoftherights
21andinterestsofsubjectsofbiomedicalandbehavioral
22research,andshallassurethathumansubjectsareas
23wellinformedaboutthenatureoftheresearchasis
24reasonablypossible.

19

20

1t
1

21

t
1

22

23

21

19
16
1"(d)Notwithstandinganyotherprovisionoflaw,no
?entityshallberequiredtoestablishmorethanonehuman
3investigationreviewboard.
4"(e)Inacasewherethepolicies,procedures,orguide
5linesofmorethanonedepartmentoragencyconflictanda
6humaninvestigationreviewboardoranentitycannotresolve
7theapplicationofsuchconflictingpolicies,proceduresor

8guidelines,theCommissionshalldecidetheresolutionofsuch
9conflict.
10"certification
11"Sec.1806.(a)Eachdepartmentoragencywhich
12fundsorregulatesanentitywithrespecttobiomedicaland
13behavioralresearchinvolvinghumansubjectsshallcertify
14thattheHumanInvestigationReviewBoardofsuchentity
15isinconformitywiththerequirementsofsubsectionB.
16"(b).Nohumaninvestigationreviewboardshallbe
17certifiedbyadepartmentoragencyunlesssuchdepartment
18oragencyissatisfiedthat
"(1)theentityhasestablishedahumaninvestiga
tionreviewboardinsuchmannerasisrequiredbythis
titleandbysuchdepartmentoragency;
"(2)thehumaninvestigationreviewboardwill
operateinamannersoastoassurethefullexerciseof
therightsandfullprotectionoftheinterestsofsubjects

20
17
1ofbiomedicalandbehavioralresearchconsistentwith

2theethicalandmoralprinciplesidentifiedbytheCom
3mission,pursuanttosection1801.
4"dutiesofthehumaninvestigationbeviewboards
5"Sec.1807.Itshallbethedutyofeachhumaninvesti
6gationreviewboard,establishedundersection1805,to
7"(a)establishpoliciesforthereviewofresearch
8sponsoredinwholeorpartbyFederalfundsorrequired
9byFederalregulation,consistentwiththepolicies,pro
10cedures,andguidelinesofappropriatedepartmentsor
11agencies;
12"(b)assumefullresponsibilitytoinsurethatbio
13medicalandbehavioralresearchinvolvinghumansub
14jectsiscarriedoutunderthesafestpossibleconditions
^5andwiththefullyinformedconsentofthesubject(or
16bisfamily)inamannerfullyconsistentwiththepoli
1?cies,procedures,andguidelinesofappropriatedepart
18mentsoragencies;
19"(c)seektheconsultativeservicesoftheCom
20missiononanydecision,orfortheprovisionofinforma

21tionneededtoarriveatadecision;and
22"(d)initiate,ifappropriate,thereferralofpar
23ticulardecisionstotheCommissioninaccordancewith
24regulationspromulgatedbytheCommission,

I;

21

18
1"monitobingandinspection
2"Sec.1808.(a)Adepartmentoragencywhichhas
3certifiedtheHumanInvestigationReviewBoardofanen
4tityshall,fromtimetotime,monitortheoperationand
5activitiesof
G"(1)suchBoard,and
7"(2).suchentity,
Stodeterminewhethertheoperationandactivitiesofsuch

9Boardandentityareincompliancewiththistitle,andthe
10policies,procedures,guidelines,andregulationsofsuchde
llpartmentoragency.
12"(b)(1)Adepartmentoragencywhichhascertified
13thehumaninvestigationreviewboardofanentityshall,
14fromtimetotime,inspectsuchentitytodeterminewhether
15itisincompliancewiththistitle,andthepolicies,pro
16cedures,guidelines,andregulationsofsuchdepartmentor
17agency.
18"(2)Inthecaseofanentityinspectedpursuanttothis
19section,theinspectionshallextendtoalltangiblethings
20therein,includingrecords,files,papers,documents,processes,
2icontrols,andfacilities,whichsuchdepartmentoragency
22findsrelevantormaterialtowhethersuchentityisincom
23pliancewiththistitle,andthepolicies,procedures,guide
24lines,andregulationsofsuchdepartmentoragency.
25"(c)Themonitoringandinspectionauthorityofany

22

19
1departmentoragency,pursuanttothissection,shallbe
2limitedtothoseoperations,activities,andtangiblethings
3whichrelatetoresearchfunded,inwholeorinpart,byor
4requiredpursuanttoaregulationofsuchdepartmentor
5agency.
6"confidentialityandrecordkeepingrequirements
7Sec.1809.Ifanentityhasestablishedahumaninvesti
8gationreviewboardandsuchboardhasbeencertifiedbya
9departmentoragency,suchentityshall
10"(a)establishandmaintainsuchrecords,make
11suchreports,andprovidesuchinformationasanysuch
12departmentoragencyshallbyregulationororderre
13quiretodeterminewhethersuchentityisincompliance
14withthistitle,andthepolicies,procedures,guidelines,
15andregulationsofsuchdepartmentoragency;
16'"(b)makesuchrecords,files,papers,documents,
17processes,andcontrolswhichsuchdepartmentoragency

18findsmaterialorrelevanttowhethersuchentityisin
19compliancewiththistitle,andthepolicies,procedures,
20guidelines,andregulationsofsuchdepartmentoragency
2iavailabletosuchdepartmentoragency,oranyofits
22dulyauthorizedrepresentativesforexamination,copy
23ing,ormechanicalreproductiononoroffthepremises
24ofsuchentityuponthereasonablerequesttherefor;
25"(c)(1)adepartmentoragencyshallnotdisclose

ill

23

20.
1anyinformationreportedtoorotherwiseobtainedbyit
2pursuanttothistitlewhichconcernsanyinformation
3whichcontainsorrelatestoatradesecretorothermat
4terreferredtoinsection1905oftitle18oftheUnited

5StatesCode;
6"(2)theCommission,eachdepartmentoragency
7andeachentitywhichisrequiredtoestablishandmain
Stainrecords,makereports,andprovideinformation
9pursuanttothistitleshallinsecuringandmaintaining
10anyrecordofindividuallyidentifiablepersonaldata
11(hereinafterinthissubsectionreferredtoas'personal
12data')forpurposesofthistitle
13"(A)informanyindividualwhoisaskedto
14supplypersonaldatawhetherheislegallyrequired,
15ormayrefuse,tosupplysuchdataandinformhim
16ofanyspecificconsequences,knowntotheCommis
17sion,departmentoragency,orentity,asthecase
18maybe,ofprovidingornotprovidingsuchdata;
19"(B)uponrequest,informanyindividualif
20heisthesubjectofpersonaldatasecuredormain
21tainedbytheCommission,departmentoragency,
22orentity,asthecasemaybe,andmakethedata
23availabletohiminaformcomprehensivetohim;

24"(C)assurethatnouseismadeofpersonal
25datawhichisnotwithinthepurposesotthistitle

24;1|
.21:];
1unlessaninformedconsenthasbeenobtainedfrom
2theindividualwhoisthesubjectofsuchdata;I
3"(D)uponrequest,informanyindividualof*\
4.theusebeingmadeofpersonaldatarespectingsuch
5individualandoftheidentityoftheindividualsand.1
6entitieswhichwillusethedataandtheirrelation
7shiptotheCommission,departmentoragency,or*||
8entity;s
9"(3)anyentitywhichmaintainsarecordofper*
10sonaldataandwhichreceivesarequestfromtheComf
*
11missionoradepartmentoragencyforsuchdatafor
i
12purposesofthistitleshallnottransferanysuchdata|

13totheCommissionoradepartmentoragencyunless
14theindividualwhosepersonaldataistobesotrans^
15ferredgivesaninformedconsentforsuchtransfer.1
16"(4)Notwithstandinganyotherprovisionoflaw,
17personaldatacollectedormaintainedbytheComI
18missionoradepartmentoragency,pursuanttothis
19title,maynotbemadeavailableordisclosedbytheCom^
20missionoradepartmentoragencytoanypersonor*|
21entityotherthantheindividualwhoisthesubjectof
22suchdata.Suchpersonaldatamaynotberequiredtobe;|
23disclosedbyanyFederal,State,orlocalcivil,criminal,
24administrative,legislativeorotherproceeding.J
25"(d)Anypersonwhounlawfullydisclosesthecontents

25
22

1ofanyrecord,file,paper,document,process,orcontrolshall
2uponconvictionbefinednotmorethan$500inthecaseofa
3firstoffense,andnotmorethan$5,000inthecaseofeach
4subsequentoffense.
5"(e)Therecordkeepingrequirementsestablishedby
6anydepartmentoragencyshallbelimitedtothoseoperations
7andactivitieswhichrelatetoresearchfundedbyorrequired
8pursuanttoaregulationofsuchdepartmentoragency.
9"interimprovisions
10"Sec.1810.(a)Untilsuchtimeasahumaninvestiga
11tionreviewboardhasbeencertifiedbyadepartmentor
12agency,eachdepartmentoragencyshalldeterminewithre
13specttobiomedicalandbehavioralresearchconducted,sup
14ported,orrequiredbyregulationunderprogramsadminis
15teredbyeachsuchdepartmentoragencythat
16"(1)therightsofhumansubjectsofsuchresearch
17arefullyexercised;
18"(2)theinterestsofhumansubjectsofsuchre

19searcharefullyprotected;
20"(3)theriskstoahumansubjectofsuchresearch
21areoutweighedbythepotentialbenefitstohimorby
22theimportanceoftheknowledgetobegainedfromsuch
23research;
24"(4)informedconsentisgivenbyeachhuman
25subjectinaccordancewiththeprovisionsofthissection.

26
23
1"(b)Forpurposesofthissectiononty,theterm'in
2formedconsent'shallmeantheconsentofaperson,orhis
3legalrepresentative,sosituatedastobeabletoexercise
4freepowerofchoicewithouttaeinterventionofanyelement
5offorce,fraud,deceit,duress,orotherformofconstraintor
6coercion.Suchconsentshallbeevidencedbyanindividual
7izedwrittendocumentsignedbysuchperson,orhislegal
8representative.Theinformationtobegiventothesubject

9andrecordedinsuchwrittendocumentshallincludethe
10followingbasicelements:
11"(1)afairexplanationoftheprocedurestobe
12followed,includinganidentificationofanywhichare
13experimental;
14"(2)adescriptionofanyattendantdiscomfortsand
15risksreasonablytobeexpected;
16"(3)afairexplanationofthelikelyresultsshould
17theexperimentalprocedurefail;
18"(4)adescriptionofanybenefitsreasonablytobe
29expected;
20"(5)adisclosureofanyappropriatealternative
2iproceduresthatmightbeadvantageousforthesubject;
22"(6)anffertoansweranyinquiriesconcerning
23theprocedures;and

24

(7)anyothermatterwhichadepartmentor1

25agencydeemsappropriateforthefullexerciseofthe

27
24
1rightsandfullprotectionoftheinterestsofhumansub
2jectsofbiomedicalandbehavioralresearch.
3Inaddition,thewrittendocumentexecutedbysuch
4person,orhislegalrepresentative,shallincludenoexculpa
5torylanguagethroughwhichthesubjectismadetowaive,
6ortoappeartowaive,anyofhislegalrights,ortorelease
Jtheinstitutionoritsagentsfromliabilityfornegligence.Any
8organizationwhichinitiates,directs,orengagesinprograms
9ofresearch,development,ordemonstrationwhichrequire
10informedconsentshallkeepapermanentrecordofsuchcon
11sentandtheinformationprovidedthesubjectanddevelop

12appropriatedocumentationandreportingproceduresasan
13essentialadministrativefunction.
14"administrativeprovisions
15"Sec.1811.(a)TheCommissionmayforthepurpose
v16ofcarryingoutitsdutiesholdsuchhearings,sitandactat
17suchtimesandplaces,takesuchtestimony,andreceivesuch
18evidenceastheCommissiondeemsadvisable.
19"(b)(1)TheCommissionmayappointandcoinpen
20sate,ataratenottoexceedtheannualrateofbasicpayin
21effectforgradeGS18oftheGeneralSchedule,anexecu
22tivedirector,withoutregardtotheprovisionsoftitle5,
23UnitedStatesCode,governingappointmentsintheoompeti
24tiveservice,andtheprovisionsofchapter51andsubchapter

28

]
1IIIofchapter53ofsuchtitle,relatingtoclassificationand
2GeneralSchedulepayrates,whoshalladministerfulltime|
*3thedailyactivitiesoftheCommission.
4"(2)TheCommissionmayappointandfixthecompenJ
5sationofsuchpersonnelasitdeemsadvisable,withoutregard*:,
6totheprovisionsoftitle5,UnitedStatesCode,governingij"
7appointmentsinthecompetitiveservice,andtheprovisions*||
8ofchapter51andsubchapterIIIofchapter53ofsuchtitle,
9relatingtoclassificationandGeneralSchedulepayrates.J
10"(3)TheCommissionmayprocure,inaccordancewith.rJJ
11theprovisionsofsection3109oftitle5,UnitedStatesCode,^
12thetemporaryorintermittentservicesofexpertsorconr|
13sultants.Personssoemployedshallreceivecompensation
14ataratetobefixedbytheCommission,butnotexceeding::|
15foranyday(includingtraveltime)thedailyequivalentof
16theeffectiverateforgradeGS18oftheGeneralSchedule.#J
17Whileawayfromhishomeorregularplaceofbusinessintheif|
18performanceofservicesfortheCommission,anysuchper

19sonmaybeallowedtravelexpenses,includingperdiemin:|
20lieuofsubsistence,asauthorizedbysection5703(b)oftitle
215,UnitedStatesCode,forpersonsintheGovernmentserviceH
22employedintermittently.f|
23"(c)(1)Exceptasprovidedinparagraph(2),the
24CommissionmaypublishanddisseminatetothepublicsuchI.J

J*

V.t

29

26
1reports,information,recommendations,nndothermaterial
2relatingtoitsfunctions,activities,andstudiesasitdeems
3appropriate.
4"(2)TheCommissionshallnotdiscloseanyinforma

5tionreportedtoorotherwiseobtainedbyitincarryingout
6itsfunctionswhich(1)identifiesanyindividualwhohas
7beenthesubjectofanactivitystudiedorinvestigatedby
8theCommission,(2)concernsanyinformationwhichcon
9tainsorrelatestoatradesecretorothermatterreferredto
10insection1905oftitle18,UnitedStatesCode,or(3)is
11properlyclassifiedforanypurposebyaFederalagency.
12"(d)Withinsixtydaysofthereceiptofanyrecommen
13dationmadebytheCommissionunderthispart,theappro
14priatedepartmentoragencyshallpublishitintheFederal
15Registerandprovideopportunityforinterestedpersonsto
16submitwrittendata,views,andargumentswithrespectto
17suchrecommendation.Theappropriatedepartmentor
18agencyshall(1)determinewhethertheadministrativeor
29otheractionproposedbysuchrecommendationisappro
20priatetoassuretheprotectionofhumansubjectsofbio
2imedicalandbehavioralresearchconducted,supported,or
22requiredb)regulationunderprogramsadministeredbyit,
23and(2)ifitdeterminesthatsuchactionisnotsoappro

24priate,publishintheFederalRegistersuchdetermination
25togetherwithanadequatestatementofthereasonsforits

I
rli

30

27
1determination.Iftheappropriatedepartmentoragencyde
2tanninesthatadministrativeactionrecommendedbythe
3Commissionshouldbeundertakenbyit,itshallundertake
4suchac'ionasexpeditiouslyasisfeasible.
5"(e)TheCommissionmaymakegrantsandenterinto
6contractsforthepurposeofundertakinganyrequiredin
7vestigationorstudy,forthedevelopmentofrequiredpolicies,

8proceduresandguidelinesandformonitoringcompliance
9withthistitleandpolicies,procedures,guidelinesandregui
10lationsofadepartmentoragency.
11"(f)TheCommissionshalldeterminethepriorityand
12orderofthosedutiesandfunctionsrequiredtobeperformed
13underthistitle.
14"is)U)UponadeterminationbytheCommissionthat
15sufficientinformationalreadyexistsconcerninganareaof
16investigationandstudyrequiredtobeconductedunderthis
17title,theCommissionmaydecidethatsuchinvestigation
18andstudyneednotbeconducted.Insuchacase,theCom
19missionshallutilizealreadyexistinginformationastheif
20basisforidentifyingthoseprinciplesanddevelopingthose
2ipolicies,proceduresandguidelinesrequiredunderthis
22titfe
23"(2)UnlesstheCommissionhasdeterminedthatan
24investigationandstudyrequiredunderthistitleneednot
25beconductedpursuanttoparagraph(1),eachinvestigation

31

28
1andstudyshallbecompletedwithinthreeyearsfromthe
2dateofenactmentofthePresident'sCommissionforthe
3ProtectionofHumanSubjectsofBiomedicalandBehavioral
4ResearchActof1977.
5"(h)(1)Pursuanttoanyactivityrelatingtoitsduties
6andfunctionsunderthistitle,theCommissionmaysnbpena
7witnesses,compeltheattendanceandtestimonyofwitnesses,
8andrequiretheproductionofanyrecordsandinformation,
9includingrecords,files,papers,documents,processesand
10controlsandothertangiblethings,whichtheCommission
11findsrelevantormaterialtoitsdutiesandfunctions.The

12attendanceofwitnessesandtheproductionofrecordsmay
13berequiredfromanyplaceinanyStateorinanyterritoryor
14otherplacesubjecttothejurisdictionoftheUnitedStates
15atanydesignatedplaceofhearing;exceptthatawitness
16shallnotberequiredtoappearatanyhearinganymorethan
17500milesdistantfromtheplacewherehewasservedwitha
18subpena.Witnessessummonedunderthissectionshallbe
19paidthesamefeesandmileagethatarcpaidwitnessesin
20thecourtsoftheUnitedStates.
21"(2)Asubpenaissuedunderthissectionmaybeserved
22byanypersondesignatedinthesubpenatoserveit.Serv
23iceuponanaturalpersonmaybemadebypersonaldelivery
24ofthesubpenatohim.Servicemaybemadeuponadomestic
25orforeigncorporationoruponapartnershiporotherunin

32

29
1corporatedassociationwhichissubjecttosuitunderacomr
2monname,bydeliveringthesubpenatoanofficer,toa
3managingorgeneralagent,ortoanyotheragentauthorized
4byappointmentorbylawtoreceiveserviceofprocess.The
5affidavitofthepersonserving:thesubpenaenteredona
6truecopythereofbythepersonservingitshallbeproof
7ofservice.
8"(3)Inthecaseofcontumacybyorrefusal,toobey
9asubpenaissuedtoanyperson,theCommissionmayinvoke
10theaidofanycourtoftheUnitedStateswithinthejuris*
11dictionofwhichtheactivityiscarriedonorofwhichthe
12subpenaedpersonisaninhabitant,orinwhichhecarrieson
13businessormaybefound,tocompelcompliancewiththe
14subpena.Thecourtmayissueanorderrequiringthesub
15penaedpersontoappearbeforetheCommissiontoproduce
16records,ifsoordered,ortogivetestimonytouchingthemat
17terunderconsideration.Anyfailuretoobeytheorderofthe

18courtmaybepunishedbythecourtasacontemptthereof.
19Allprocessinanysuchcasemaybeservedinanyjudicial
2Gdistrict;inwhichsuchpersonmaybefound.
21"(i)OnNovember1ofeachyear,eachdepartmentor
22agencyshalleachsubmitareportsimultaneouslytothe1[
23PresidentandtotheappropriatecommitteesofCongress.;
24Eachsuchreportshallincludewithrespecttotheprevious{\
25fiscalyear

33

30
1"(1)acompletelistanddescriptionofallrecom
2mendationsmadetosuchdepartmentoragencybythe
3Commission;
4"(2)adescriptionofwhatactionsuchdepartment
5oragencytookwithrespecttoeachsuchrecommenda
6tion;

7"(3)inthosesituationswheresuchdepartmentor
8agencyacceptedarecommendation,adescriptionofthe
9policies,procedures,guidelines,regulations,andother
10administrativeactionsweretakenbysuchdepartment
11oragencytoimplementsuchrecommendation;
12"(^)^ntnosesituationswheresuchdepartment
13oragencyfailedtoaccept,inwholeorinpart,arecom
14mendation,adescriptionofthereasonsforsuchfail
15ure;adescriptionofpolicies,procedures,guidelines,
16regulations,andotheradministrativeactionswerefol
17lowedinlieuofsuchrecommendation;andwhatwere
18theresults.
19"(j)Section14oftheFederalAdvisoryCommittee
20ActshallnotapplywithrespecttotheCommission.
21"penalties
22"Sec.1812.(a)NoentitymayreceiveanyFederal
23fundsfromadepartmentoragency,fortheconductofbio
24medicalorbehavioralresearchunlesssuchentityhases

34

31
1tablishedahumaninvestigationreviewboardwhichhas
2beencertifiedbysuchdepartmentoragency.
3"(b)NoentitymayreceiveaFederalapprovalbya
4departmentoragencyofaprogram,patent,productor
5studywhichrequirestheconductofbiomedicalorbehavioral
6researchunlesssuchentityhasestablishedahumaninvesti
7gationreviewboardwhichhasbeencertifiedbysuchde
8partmentoragency.>
9"definitions^.:..":::
10"Sec.1813.(a)Asusedinthistitletheterm

11"(1)'Commission'meansthePresident'sCom
12missionfortheProtectionofHumanSubjectsofBio*
13medicalandBehavioralResearch.
14"(2)'President'meansthePresidentoftheUnited
15States.
16"(3)'DepartmentorAgency'meanseachauthor
17ityoftheGovernmentoftheUnitedStates,whetheror
18notitiswithinorsubjecttoreviewbyanotheragency,
19butdoesnotinclude
20"(A.)theCongress;
2i"(B)thecourtsoftheUnitedStates;
22"(C)thegovernmentsoftheterritoriesorpos
23sessionsoftheUnitedStates;and
24"(D)thegovernmentoftheDistrictof
25Columbia.

35
32

1"(4)'entity*includesanindividual,partnership,
2corporation,association,orpublicorprivateorganization
3butdoesnotincludeadepartmentoragencywhichcon
4ductsbiomedicalorbehavioralresearchsolelythrough
5grantsorcontracts.
q"(5)'information'includesanyinformationwhich
7isclassifiedordeemedtobeclassifiedforanypurpose
3(includingnationalsecurity)byanagencyordepart
9ment.
10"(6)Ilealthservices'meansthosehealthservices
11whicharesupportedorfinancedbyFederalfunds.
12"(7)'regulated'and'requiredpursuanttoaregu
13lation'meansanybiomedicalorbehavioralresearchin
14volvinghumansubjectswhichisrequiredtobeconducted
15pursuanttoaregulationofadepartmentoragencyas
K3aconditionprecedenttoanapprovalbysuchdepartment
17oragencyofaprogram,patent,substance,product,or
lgstudy.
19"(b)Asusedinsubsection(b)ofsection1802the
20term

2i"(1)'children'meansindividualswhohavenot
22attainedthelegalageofconsenttoparticipateinresearch
23asdeterminedundertheapplicablelawofthejurisdic
24tioninwhichtheresearchistobeconducted.
25"(2)'prisoners'meansindividualsinvoluntarily

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

36
33

confinedincorrectionalinstitutionsorfacilitiesasdefined
insection601oftheOmnibusCrimeControlandSafe
StreetsActof1968(43U.S.C.3781).
"(3)'institutionalizedmentallyinfirm'includesin
dividualswhoarementallyill,mentallyretarded,emo
tionallydisturbed,psychotic,orsenile,orwhohave
otherimpairmentsofasimilarnatureandwhoreside
aspatientsinaninstitution.
"(4)theterm'militarypersonnel'meansindivid
ualswhoareactiveandinactivemembersoftheUnited
StatesArmedForcesandemployeesandagentsofthe
CentralIntelligenceAgency.".
MISCELLANEOUS
Sec.3.(a)PartAoftitleIIoftheNationalResearch
Act(42U.S.C.2891)isrepealed.
(b)Sections211and213oftheNationalResearchAct
arerepealed.
(c)Subsections(f)ofsection217ofthePublicHealth
19ServiceAct(42U.S.C.218(f))isrepealed.
20EFFECTIVEdate
Sec.4.ThisActandtheamendmentsmadebythis
ActshalltakeeffectonOctober1,1977,exceptthatthe
no
provisionsofsection1812shallnottakeeffectuntilApril1,
241978.

mi

37
SenatorKennedy.Butitseemstome,andIthinktheothermem
bersofthecommittee,thatwehavetoprotectournationalinter
ests,butwealsohavetoprotecttheinterestofourAmericancitizens
inaveryimportantway,anddevelopthekindsofprocesswhere
thoseprotectionscanbemadeinwaysthatarenotgomgtoseethe
basicandfundamentalintegrityofouruniversities,otheragencies
andindividualscompromised.
Whatwehaveseenovertheissueofbehavioralhealthresearch,
whichistheareaofinterestofthiscommittee,duringthisperiodof
timeisthattheagencyworkedeffectivelywithoutaccountability
and,insomanyinstances,reallybasicallywithoutbasicregardfor
theprotectionofthehumansubjects.
SenatorSchweiker.
SenatorSchweiker.Thankyou,Mr.Chairman.
HavingservedontheoriginalSenateIntelligenceCommittee,
Ifinditratherdisturbingtobehereatalltoday.DuringtheIntel
ligenceCommittee'sISmonthsofinvestigation,wewerecontinually
giveninformationbytheintelligenceagencieswiththeveryspecific
implicationthattheinformationwaseithercompleteoritwasthe
bestweknew.Weweretoldthatwehadthewholestorythen,just
asthissubcommitteewastoldwehadthewholestoryduringour
1975hearings.Timeaftertimeaftertime,thathasprovennottobe
thecase.

Theseriesofhearingswearenowconductingbeganbecausewe
foundyetanotherblackboxthatweopeneduptofindinformation
thatthrowsjustalittlebitmorelightonthewholepicture.Itisrather
tragictomethatSenatecommitteeshavetooperatethisway.We
arelimitedbyourknowledgeandinourabilitytomakenewlaws
andtooverseepresentlawswhenwearegiveninformationpiece
mealandseeminglywithgreatreluctancebytheagencies.It's
likeopeningaseriesofsmallboxes,andthenfindingthatafterwe
openthelastbox,whichweareassuredhaseverythinginit,there
appearsyeLanotherboxthathastobeopenedandthewholematter
examinedagain.
That'scertainlythedescriptionIwouldgiveofthewaythatthe
intelligenceagencieshavedisclosedmaterialontheirpastactionsto
Senatecommitteeswhicharechargedwithlegislativeandoversight
responsibilities.
IdocommendAdmiralTurnerforhiscandor,forhisstraightfor
wardnessinrevealingthediscoveryofthislatestgroupofdocuments
containingmoreinformationrelatingtoCIAhumanexperimentation.
IdohavetosayIwonderwhowasresponsibleforsupplyingthe
informationtousinthepastandwheretinsmaterialwasatthetime
ourcommitteeinitiallylookedintotheuseofhumansubjectsbythe
CIA.Weweretold2yearsagolhatwehadalloftheinformationthat
wasavailable,andthatitwasthemosttheofficialsknew.Ofcourse
thepeoplewhoknewdifferentlywereeithersilentornotavailable.
SoIamverytroubledthatthisprocessgoesonandon.
Also,whilethispointisnotparticularlyrelevanttothismorning's
hearing,inreadingthenewspapersthisweekweseethesamesortof
situationinthematteroftheintelligencecommunity'suseofjour
nalists.Weseealmostanexactparallelofthepatternofinformation
disclosureonthatissueasthesubcommitteefacesonthehuman

subjectsissuebeingtoldsomething,butnotbeingtoldthewhole

38
story,andthenfindingoutlaterthat,infact,weweretoldjusta
smallpartofthestory,andnowanewstoryhascomeoutwithalot
moredetailandmuchbroaderimplicationsthanwhatwewereorig
inallytold.
Soitisnotsurprisingtomethatweareheretoday,butitisrather
disappointing.
Iamheretolearn,andIhavelearnedenoughbynowabouthow
thesethingsoperatetoknowthattheremaywellbemorechapters
inthiscontinuingstory.
Thankyou,Mr.Chairman.
SenatorKennedy.ThefinalpointIwanttomake,Isupposethe
matterwhichisofgreatestconcernforAmericans,isthatwehave
seenovertheperiodofthese14yearswhentheseprogramswere
beingundertakenaperversionagainofthefreedomofbothindividuals
.,aswellasagencies,andIsupposeitisonlyfairtoaskwhatwasreally
achievedandwhatwasaccomplishedfromthat?
Ithinkthatthatcertainlyhasbeenmyconclusionreviewingboth
thedetailsofthematerialandthedocuments.Ithinkwewouldbe
hardpressedtofindit.
SenatorSchweiker.Mr.Chairman,Idohavearequest.Senator
Goldwater,whoisrankingRepublicanmemberoftheSenateIntel
ligenceCommittee,cannotbeherebecauseoftheschedulingconflict.
Hehasaskedmetoincludeastatementofhisintherecordatthe
startoftheseproceedings.*

SenatorKennedy.Wewillincludethatintherecordasthough
read.
STATEMENTOFHON.BARRYM.GOLDWATER,AU.S.SENATOR
FROMTHESTATEOFARIZONA
SenatorGoldwater.Mr.Chairman:Informationondrugtesting
ofhumanbeingsbytheCIAandotherintelligenceagenciesbecame
knowntothepublicduringtheRockefellerCommissionandChurch
committeeinvestigations.Theseeventshappenedover12andasfar
backas25yearsagoandarenowcompletelystopped.Yet,wecon
tinuetohearandreadabouttheseeventsinamannerthatcauses
enoughconfusionandwhichleadsomepeopletobelievethatthese
eventsarebeingrevealedforthefirsttimewheninfactthatisnot
thecase.Thecurrentemphasisisarehashofpreviousrevelationsand
reallyaddsnothingworthwhileexcepttocauseanewrashofpublicity
andmoreconfusion.Noneofthethingsthatyouarebringingup
beforethiscommitteeandtransmittingontelevisionacrossthis
countryandspreadingacrossthepagesofthepressofthiscountry
isnewor,infact,evennews.Wewentthroughthis,Iguess,2years
agobeforethefirstSenateSelectCommitteeonIntelligenceand
everythingthatyouarehearinghasbeenheardbefore.
Nowastowhytheorderswereissued,youmayrecallthatduring
theKoreanconflict,forthefirsttime,Americanprisonerswere
subjectedtotheuseofdrugsbytheenemyinanefforttoeithermake
themtalkortopunishthemortousethemaspropagandaagents.
Thisbusinessgotstartedatatimewhenitwasconsideredtobees
sential.Icanrecallhowbewilderedalotofuswerejustfollowingthe
Koreanwarwhenmanyofoursoldierswhohadbeenprisonersofwar
didnotwanttoreturnhomeanditledustobelievethattheyhad

39

beenbrainwashed.TheChurchcommittee'sreportexplainsitthis
way:
Thelate1940'sandearly1950'sweremarkedbyconcernoverthethreatposed
bytheactivitiesoftheSovietUnion,thePeoplesRepublicofChinaandother
Communistbloccountries.UnitedStatesconcernovertheuseofchemicaland
biologicalagentsbythesepowerswasacute.Thebeliefthathostilepowershad
usedchemicalandbiologicalagentsininterrogation*,brainwashing,andin
g~attacksdesignedtoharass,disable,orkillAlliedpersonnelcreatedconsiderable
pressurefora"defensive"programtoinvestigatechemicalandbiologicalagents
sothattheintelligencecommunitycouldunderstandthemechanismsbywhich
thesesubstancesworkedandhowtheireffectscouldbedefeated.
TheChurchcommitteereportfurtherexplainsthattherationale
*fortestingprogramswasafollows:
FearsthatcountrieshostiletotheUnitedStateswouldusechemicalandbio
logicalagentsagainstAmerican?orAmerica'salliesledtothedevelopmentofa
defensiveprogramdesignedtodiscovertechniquesforAmericanintelligence
agenciestodetectandcounteractchemicalandbiologicalagents.
Ithinkitwasaverynaturalreactionofourleaders,inthisparticu
larinstance,torunteststofindoutwhattheeffectofdrugs,orat
leastcertaindrugs,wouldbeonindividualssotha*wemightprovide
protectionforourownforcesinthefuture.Certainlythereweresome
unfortunateresults,particularlyinregardtotheunwittingpartic
ipantsandeventothosewhovolunteeredfortheprogram.But,
waritselfisanunfortunatething.
That'sbehindusnow.After\){yearsofinvestigationbytheChurch
committeeandnowfollowedbymorethanayearofoversightbythe
newSenateIntelligenceCommitteewearenowassuredthatthe

intelligenceagenciesareundercongressionalcontrolwitheffective
oversightandaccountability.Toarriveatthatpointtheselect
committeehassetupsixsubcommitteeswhosecombinedresponsi
biitiesinvolvethemmallaspectsoftheintelligencegatheringactiv
itiesoftheFederalGovernment.Eachexecutivebranchorganization
engagedinintelligenceoperations,allthewayfromtheWhiteHouse
ondown,mustaskforfunds,justifytheprogramsforwhichthose
fundsarerequested,advisethecommitteeofspecialundertakings,
and,aboveall,accountforwhattheydo.
Thentelligencebusinesshasbeenthroughsometoughtimesand
thepublic'sviewhasbeensoured.ThatisDehindusnow.Ibelieve
itistimetolookahead.Iamconvincedthatouragenciesarestaffed
bycompetentandconcernedpublicservantswhowillcontinuetopro
videtheNationwithaneffectiveintelligenceprogramdedicatedto
;thenationalinterest.Ibelievetheyhaveearnedandnowdeserveour
support.
*Inmyhumbleopinion,Ithinkthetimehascomeforsomeoneto
risetothedefenseoftheCentralIntelligenceAgencyinthiswhole
matteroftheadministrationofcertaintypesofdrugstoindividuals
inthiscountry,eitheronavoluntaryoraninvoluntarybasis.Now
theseindividualsthatyouarebringingbeforethiscommitteewere
membersoftheIntelligenceAgency,andtheywereactingunder
orders.Thesearegood,patriotic,dedicatedAmericancitizenswho
weretoldtodosomethingand,inturn,thosepeoplewhoissued*he
instructionsweregivenordersfromonhigh,andifyouwanttotrace
thesourcerightonup,you'llprobablyfindthatthesourcewasprob
ablyattheWhiteHouselevel.Peopleworkinginagencieslikethe
ClAareprettymuchlikethepeopleinuniform.Theydonotdisobey

40

ordersunlesstheyfeelsostronglyaboutthesubjectthattheywould|
bewillingtoresigntheirpostsortheircommissions.|
Iwouldhopethatthehearingsbeforethiscommitteewouldcease
andthatallthegoodworkbeingdoneinrehabilitatingandrebuilding~
theCentralIntelligenceAgencywillnotbehinderedbyspreading|
thesematters,whichwillleaveanerroneousimpression,acrossthe*
newsofthiscountry.Ibelievethatitwouldbemoreusefulatthis
timetofocusourattentiononfindingandhelpingthoseindividuals
orinstitutionsthatmayhavebeenharmedbyanyimproperorillegal
activities.
Iofferthiswithallrespecttoyou,Mr.Chairman,andtoyourcom,
mitteeandwiththefullknowledgethatyouhaveeveryrightinthe
worldtoholdthesehearings.
SenatorKennedy.Wehadjointhearingspreviouslyandwehave
workedverycloselywiththeIntelligenceCommittee.
Ourinterestinthesehearingsisobviouslylimitedtohealthaspects
andthisspinsover,obviously,intootherprovisions.
OurfirstwitnessthismorningisDr.CharlesGeschickter,Geschick|
terFundforMedicalResearch.|
Dr.Geschickter,wewelcomeyouhere.Ifyouwillbekindenough
tocomeup,wewillaskyoutostandandbeswornin.
Doyouswearthatthetestimonyyouwillgiveisthetruth,the|

wholetruth,sohelpyou,God?i
Dr.Geschickter.Ido.
SenatorKennedy.Justbeforewegetstarted,oneoftheobviousf
aspectsofourinquiryhasbeenhowtheAgencyinthedevelopmentof|
thisprogramoftestinginvolvedotheragencies.Wearegoingtohear
fromMr.BensingertomorrowabouttheBureauofNarcotics.Ihave,
herejustaswornstatementbyJohnBartels,andIwilljustreaditI
intotherecord.*
Itisabriefstatement,butitisrelatedtoourfirstwitness,andI
thinkweoughttohavethisintherecord,andIwillinsertitintothe1
recordatthistime.J
[Thematerialreferredtofollows:]

::.i

41

STATEOFNEWYORK

COUNTYOFWESTCHESTER)

ss.

JOHNR.BARTELS,JR.,beingamemberoftheBarofthe
StateofNewYork,affirmsunderpenaltyofperjurythe
following:
1.OnJuly1,1973,IwasappointedActingAdministrator
oftheU.S.DrugEnforcementAdministrationbyAttorney
GeneralElliotRichardson.Duringthefirstfewweeks
ofthatterm,IlearnedfromPatrickFuller,Chief
Inspector,thattherewerebetween13and17agentsof
D.E.A.assignedtovariousfieldofficesasanonymous
inspectors.ThesemenhadpriorC.I.A.training,andI
believesomemayhavehadpriorC.I.A.experience.Mr.
Fullerexplainedthathehadpromisedtokeeptheir
namesanonymous,andaccordinglycouldnottellevenme
whotheywere.Theirfunctionwastoreporttohim
aloneanonymously,questionableinstancesorallegations
concerningthecharacterorintegrityofotheragents.
Thusanagentcouldbetransferredorremovedfromhis
positiononFuller'ssaysoalonewithouteverbeing
confrontedwithacharge.

2.AfterconsultingwithJonathanMoore,Mr.Richardson's
executiveassistant,IdecidedtoencourageMr.Fuller
toretireorresign.Hecontinuedtorefusetodisclose
thenames,butagreedthattheprogrambedisbanded,
anditwas.DuringthistimeperiodIreceivedaletter

42

fromWilliamColby,headoftheC.I.A.,withdrawingall
supportforthisprogram.
ManymonthslaterIlearnedfrommyexecutiveassistant,
DanielCasey,thattheoldFederalBureauofNarcotics
hadmaintainedjoint"safehouses"withtheC.I.A.He
toldmethattheBureauhadusedtheseapartmentsin
Californiafordebriefinginformantswhilehesupposed
theAgencyhadusedthemformeetingsourcesandperhaps
compromisingsituationsastheycontainedtwowaymirrors.,
ItismybeliefthatwhateverMr.Caseylearnedwasfrom
otheragentsorreports.
AtaboutthesametimeIaskedMr.Colbyforarepresenta
tionfromtheC.I.A.thattherewerenoemployeesonthe
D.E.A.payrollwhowerealsoperformingservicesinany

mannerfortheAgency.ItismyrecollectionthatI
receivedanoralrepresentationtothateffectfromMr.
Colby,andIbelieveawrittenletter,eitherfromKim
oroneofhisdeputies.Inaddition,theOfficeofPersonnel
informedmethattherewereapproximately53employeesat
D.E.A.withpastC.I.A.experiencewhohadbeenabsorbed
intotheAgencyinthemergerbetweenB.N.D.D.andthe
BureauofCustoms.Weobtainedaffidavitsfromeachoneij|
ofthoseemployeestotheeffectthathewasnotperforming
*ft
anyservicesfor,oractingatthe'requestof,anyemployeeJ
oftheAgency.Ibelievewegotaffidavitsfromevery
employeewithanypasthistoryofworkingwiththeAgency.*
2

&

43

Tomyknowledge,therewasnoformalprogramof
cooperationbetweenD.E.A.andtheC.I.A.afterJuly
of1973apartfromtheformalexchangeofinformation
betweenourofficeofintelligenceandliaisonforthe
Agency,initiallySeymourBoltonandsubsequentlyJohn
Kennedy.

Sworntobeforemethis
19thdayofSeptember1977.

faA

Q;'.!=*v.r...

ftfe

44
SenatorKennedy.Wewillreferbacktothatduringthecourseof
ourhearing.
Dr.Geschickter,wouldyoutellusalittlebitabouttheGeschickter
FundforMedicalResearch?
DidyouarrangewiththeCIAtohavetheCIAmoneyfunneled
throughthefundsformedicalresearchinordertocarryoutvarious
researchprojects?

STATEMENTOFCHARLESF,GESCHICKTER,SB.,M.D.,GESCHICKTER
FUNDFORMEDICALRESEARCH,PROFESSOREMERITUSOFRE
SEARCHPATHOLOGY,GEORGETOWNUNIVERSITYMEDICALCEN
TER,COMMANDER,U.S.NAVYANDCHIEFPATHOLOGIST,U.S.
NAVY,ACCOMPANIEDBYPLATOCACHERIS,ESQ.,HUNDLEY&
CACHERIS,P.O.,WASHINGTON,D.C.;ANDCHARLESF.GESCHICK
TER,JR.,ESQ.,BRAULT,LEWIS,GESCHICKTER&PALMER,
FAIRFAX,VA.
Dr.Geschickter.TheGeschickterFundhadalreadybeenin
beingsince1939andwasdoingresearchincancerandinchronic
diseases.Theoriginalcontractwiththefund,givenusbytheCIA,
wasforagroupofanticancercompoundsthathadalreadybeen
publishedin1951.Ihavereprintsofthesecompoundsandtheiruse
oncancerpatients.
Subsequenttothis,theCIAenlargedtheirgrantstomylaboratory
atGeorgetownwhichwasbeingsupportedbytheGeschickterFund
andbytheNCIgrantsandultimatelyfromgrantsfromtheArmy's
InstituteofWalterReedResearch,andtheyagreedtosupplyfunds
tocontinuetheresearchaswehaddonepreviouslybecauseofour
capabilitiesinsyntheticchemistryandintheirreadingoftheiruse
fulnessinphysiologybyauniqueprocedure,thatwasgivingof
materialtoratsandsubsequentlyanalyzingtheireffectsthrough
microscojpicpreparationsofvirusorgans.Thisisnotusualinpharma
cology.Ourlaboratoryrepresentedpracticallytheonlyoneinthe
worldthatwasassayingnewchemicalsbythislustologicmethod.We
didnotfurnishmoniesknowinglytootheruniversitiesforseparate
projectsuntil1955.TheAgencycameinwithmoneysforother
universitieswhosubmittedproposalsforongoingresearch,andnone
ofthisresearch,neitherinGeschickterFundLaboratorynorinthe
universitiessupportedthroughtheGeschickterFundbytheCIA,
everhadanyresearchinstitutedbytheCIA.
Thesewereongoingprojectsinreputableuniversitiesandhospital

centers,andneverdidtheydepartfromtheirusualpracticesbecause
oftheCIAgrant.
SenatorKennedy.WhywastheCIAinit?Weretheyinterested
incancerresearch?
Dr.Geschickter.Ifyoureadtheirreports,youwillfindoneofthe
byproductsofthiswillbecancerresearchadvancementandtheywere
initnenleilinpickingupwhateverideas
SenatorKennedy.Doyoubelievethatthisiswhattheywere
interestedin,oristhatjustastatementthattheywereinterested?
WhywouldtheCIAbeinterested?

l!

46
Dr.Gxschicktsb.Icanonlygiveyouthereportthatcametome
fromAllenDulles,andIwillquoteit:"ThankGodthereissomething
decentcomingoutofourbagofdirtytricks.Wearedelighted."
SenatorKennedy.Wewillgetintosomeofthoseotherones.Can
youtelluswhyyougotinvolvedwiththeGIAfunding?
Dr.Geschickter.IwouldlikeforSenatorSchweikerandy<u>
selftohavecopiesofthesereports.

SenatorKennedy.Theywillbemadeapartoftherecord.
[Theinfoimationreferredtofollows:]

If

46

It

AmiucamJeoiMu.orCumcai.Patmouoot
Vol.M.So.I.July.IMO,pp.IS
MmlMinU.S.A.

8*

AHYPERSENSITIVITYPHENOMENONPRODUCEDBYSTRESS:

THE"NEGATIVEPHASE"REACTION
CHARLESF.GESCHICKTER,M.D.,W.EDWARDO'MALLEY,M.D.,Ph.D.,and
EUGENEP.RUBACKY,Ph.D.
GeorgetownUniveriitySchoolofMedicine,Washington,D.C.

Theroleofstressindiseasehasbeena
sourceofcontroversyandinterestsince
Selyc'*firstpublishedhisunprecedented
observationsonthegeneraladaptation
syndrome.Sincethattime,anextensive
literaturehasaccumulatedontheeffectsof
prolongedstressonthepituitaryadrenal
axis;however,theeffectsofasinglebrief
episodeofstresshasreceivedlittleattention.
Thestressesoflifearemostcommonly
shortandintermittent.Itthereforeseemed
ofgreatinteresttoassesstheeffectsofa
singlebriefstressepisodeonadrenal
corticalfunction.Thesestudieswerestimu
latedbyasurprisingfindingduringthe
courseofinvestigationsonAlarmine,a
substancediscoveredbyGeschickterand
associates'toproducelesionssimulating
thoseofthecollagendiseases.
gelygio.ndemonstratedthatchronicdaily
administrationofACTHandCortisol
preventedtheanaphylactoidreactiontothe
intraperitonealinjectionoffresheggalbumin
intherat.ItwasnotedthatinAlarmine
treatedratstheinjectionofeggwhite
causednoreaction.Thiswasunexpected

andoccurredevenafterasingleinjectionof
Alarmine.Thus,ratsthatweretreated
with1doseofAlarminerespondedina
manneridenticalwiththatofratscon
ditionedforalongperiodoftimebyre
peatedtherapywithACTHorCortisol.The
anaphylactoidreactioninthewhitemale
ratfollowingtheintraperitonealinjectionof
2.0ml.offresheggwhiteobtainedfromthe
hen'seggconsistsofconspicuousedematous
swellingaroundthepaws,tongue,nose,and
scrotum.Thisresponseappearsregularly
Received,November21,1959;acceptedfor
publicationFebruary29,I960.
Dr.GeschickterisProfessorofPathology,and
Dr.O'MalleyinResearchAssistant,Department
ofPathology.
Thisworkwassupportedbyagrantfromthe
GeschickterFundforMedicalResearch.

within60to90min.followingtheinjection,
anditoccursintheabsenceofapreceding
sensitizingdoseofeggwhite.Allratsare
susceptible,andtheedematousresponseis
relativelyuniformandcanbeobserved

Severalotherstressorsubstanceswere
testedforantianaphylactoidactivity.They
includedformalin,nitrogenmustard,and

epinephrinehydrochloride.Allofthese
substancesinasingledosepreventedthe
anaphylactoidreaction,apparentlybypro
vokingthegeneraladaptationsyndrome
(GAS),whichinvolvedthepituitary
adrenalaxis.Epinephrinewasselectedfor
furtherstudy.Itsusepermitstheadminis
trationofaquantitateddegreeofstressfor
averyshorttimeinterval.Theeffectsof
thisbriefstresscanbestudiedformany
hoursthereafter.
Thestudieshereinreportedweredesigned
toelucidatetheimmediateandlongterm
effectsofasinglestressepisodeproducedby
theinjectionofepinephrine.Lessextensive
parallelstudieswereconductedusing
formalin,Alarmine,andnitrogenmustard.
Theeggwhiteanaphylactoidreactionwas
usedasanindicatorsysteminstudying
thesereactions.
Theseexperimentsdemonstratethat
whereasamildacuteboutofstressin
animalsprotectsagainstimmediatesensi
tivityreaction,itsubsequentlybuttran
sientlyweakenstheorganism'sresistanceto
furtherstress.Thesefindingsareinmarked
contrasttothecurrentlyheldconceptthat
inintermittentchronicstressconditions
theorganismbecomesresistanttofuture
stresses.
EXPERIMENTALPROCEDURES
ExperimentNo.I.Epinephrinehydro

chloride,0.1ml.of1:1000solution,was
administeredsubcutaneouslyto170white
maleWistarratsthatweighed100to120

0!

>>

47

GESCHICXTERXTAt.

Vol.84

Gm.each.Followingthis,2ml.offreshhen
eggwhitewereadministeredintraperi
toneallyateachofthefollowingtimein
tervalstogroupsof10oftheepinephrine
treatedrats:1hr.and>hr.beforethe
administrationofepinephrine;simultane
ouslywiththeadministrationofepinephrine;
Hhri1hr.,andl>hr.afterthead
ministrationofepinephrine;andevery
hourthereafterfor6hr.,andthenevery
3hr.thereafterfor12hr.Asinglegroupof

16ratsnottreatedwithepinephrineserved
asacontrol,andtheyreceivedonly2ml.
ofeggwhiteintraperitoneally.Responsesto
eggwhiteIhr.afterinjectionwererecorded
asto4plus,accordingtotheseverityof
thereaction(Table1).Itwillbeseenthat
thestressinvokedbyepinephrineprotected
againsttheanaphylactoidreactiontoegg
whiteforapproximately2hr.afterapost
epinephrineperiodhaselapsed.
ExperimentNo.S.Fortyfivehypophy

TABLE1
ExperimentNo.1ResponseorRatstoIntraperitonealInjectionorEgoWriteaiter

TreatmentwithEpinephrine

1Hr.RapoatttoEmWhit*

NumberofGroup

Numberof

Rati

+t

+i

I.Controlgroup(noepinephrine)

1G

11.Eggwhite*1hr.beforeepi

nephrine!

10

III.Eggwhite}$hr.beforeepi

nephrine

10

IV.Eggwhiteattimeofepineph

rine

10

V.EggwhiteHhr.afterepineph

rine

10

0)

VI.Eggwhite1hr.afterepineph

rine
VII.Eggwhite1*4hr.afterepineph

10

10

[pro

tortori

rine

10

10

VIII.Eggwhite2hr.afterepineph

rine

10

IX.Eggwhite3br.afterepineph

rine

10

X.Eggwhite4hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XI.Eggwhite5hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XII.Eggwhite6hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XIII.Eggwhite7hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XIV.Eggwhite8hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XV.Eggwhite11hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XVI.Eggwhite14hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XVII.Eggwhite17hr.afterepineph

rine

10

XVIII.Eggwhite20hr.afterepineph

rine

10

*Eggwhite2ml.perratintraperitpneally.
tEpinephrineHCI0.1ml.of1:1000solutionaubcutaneously.

48

JulyI960

STRESSHYPERSENSITIVITYPHENOMENON

sectomizedmaleWistarrats,weighing200
to250Gm.each,weredividedinto9groups
of5ratseach.Tendayspostoperatively
theyallwereinjectedsubcutaneouslywith
0.1ml.ofa1rlOOOepinephrinehydro
chloridesolution.Eggwhitewasadminis
teredintraperitoneallyateachofthe
followingtimeintervalstogroupsof5rats:
1hr.beforetheadministrationofepi
nephrine;simultaneouslywiththeadminis
trationofepinephrine;and1,2,4,6,9,
and18hr.aftertheadministrationof
epinephrine.Anothergroupof5hypophy
sectomizedratsreceivedeggwhitebutno

injectionofepinephrine.Theyservedas
controls.Anaphylactoidreactionswere
observedandgradedto4plus1hr.
followingadministrationofeggwhite
(Table2).Itwillbeseenthatnoadequate

protectionresultedfrominjectionofepi
nephrineintheabsenceofthehypophysis.
ExperimentNo.3.ExperimentNo.2was
duplicated,substituting45adrenalectomized
ratsinjected2dayspostoperatively(Table
3).Again,noadequateprotectionwas
achievedintheabsenceoftheadrenal
gland.
ExperimentNo.4Onehundredand

TABLE2
ExperimentNo.2ResponbeofHtfophysectomizedRatstoInjectionofEooWhiteafter
PriorTreatmentwithEpinephrine

NumberolGroup

!Numberof
Kit.

1Hr.RnpoaMtoEnWhile

I.Controlgroup(noepinephrine)
II.Eggwhite*1hr.beforeepineph

rine!
III.Eggwhiteattimeofepinephrine
IV.Eggwhite1hr.afterepinephrine
V.Eggwhite2hr.afterepinephrine
VI.Eggwhite4hr.afterepinephrine
VII.Eggwhite6hr.afterepinephrine
VIII.Eggwhite9hr.afterepinephrine
IX.Eggwhite18hr.afterepinephrine

+1

+2

+i

5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5

7.

2'

*Eggwhite2ml.perratintraperitoneally.
tEpinephrineHC10.1ml.of1:1000solutionaubcutaneously.

31

il

TABLE3
ResponseorAdrenalectomizedRathtoInjectionofEaaWhiteafterPriorTreatmentwith
Epinephrine

NmmbcrofCroup

I.Controlgroup(noepinephrine)
II.Eggwhite*1hr.beforeepineph
rine!
III.Eggwhiteattimeofepinephrine
IV.Eggwhite1hr.afterepinephrine
V.Eggwhite2hr.afterepinephrine
VI.Eggwhite4hr.afterepinephrine
VII.Eggwhitefthr.afterepinephrine
VIII.Eggwhite9hr.afterepinephrine
IX.Eggwhite18hr.afterepinephrine

1Hr.RetpouMloEggWhile

+1

+2

+i

*Eggwhite2ml.perratintraperitoneally.
tEpinephrineHC10.1ml.of1:1000solutionaubcutaneously.

1
2

1
1
2

49

GESCHICKTERETAt.

Vol.34

twentymaleWistarrats,weighingbetween
100and120Gm.each,weredividedinto
12groupsof10ratseach.GroupsItoIV
wereadministered1.0mg.perkg.of
hydrocortisonesolutionintraperitoneally.
GroupsVtoVIIIwereadministered10
mg.perkg.ofhydrocortisonesolution
intraperitoneally.GroupsIX'toXIIwere
administered100mg.perkg.ofhydro
cortisonesolutionintraperitoneally.Groups
I,V,andIXwereadministered2ml.of
eggwhiteintraperitoneallyVihr.following
theadministrationofhydrocortisone.

GroupsII,VI,andXreceived2ml.ofegg
whiteintraperitoneally\l/2hrafterthe
administrationofhydrocortisone.Groups
III,VII,andXIreceived2ml.ofegg
whiteintraperitoneally5hr.afterthe
administrationofhydrocortisone.Groups
IV,VIII,andXIIreceived2ml.ofegg
whiteintraperitoneally14'hr.afterthe
administrationofhydrocortisone.Reactions
toinjectionsofeggwhitewerenotedand
gradedinthemannerpreviouslydescribed
(Table4).Itwillbeseenthatincontrastto
epinephrine,varyingdosesofhydrocor
tisoneadministeredasasingledosegave
noprotectionwhentheanimalswere
challengedatvaryingtimeintervals.
ExperimentNo.5.SixtymaleWistar
rats,weighing100to120Gm.each,were
dividedinto3equalgroupsof20each.
GroupIreceivedhydrocortisone,20mg.
perkg.subcutaneouslytwicedailyfor2
weeks.GroupIIreceived0.1ml.of0.9
percentsolutionofsodiumchloridetwice
dailyfor2weeks.GroupIIIreceived10
unitsperkg.ofACTHintramuscularly
twicedailyfor2weeks.Followingthelust
injection,all60ratswereadministered2
ml.ofeggwhiteintraperitoneally.Reactions
wereobservedandrecordedasstatedabove
(Table5).Itwillbeseenthatchronicdoses
ofhydrocortisoneandACTHfailedto
protect.

ExperimentNo.6.Twentyhypophy
sectomizedandudrcualectomizedmuleWis
tarrats,weighingapproximately200Gm.
each,weredividedinto4groupsof5rats
each,10dayspostoperatively.GroupI
received2ml.ofeggwhiteperratintra
peritoneally.GroupIIreceived0.1ml.of
1:1000epinephrinehydrochloridesolution

TABLE4
ExperimentNo.4EffectorAcuteAdminis
trationopHroRocoRTisoKEonReaction
toEooWhite

NumberofCroup*

DowofHydro
cortisone

iTim*of
1Adminu
*tralionof
;EmWhiter

Averu*
1Hr.Re

IfXMIKto
EnWhite

W5.ftrif.

1.0

'*

+3

ii

1.0

1'*

+4

rn

1.0

+3

IV

1.0

14

+3

10

''*

+3

VI

10

I'i

'+4

VII

10

+2

VIII

10

!14

+4

IX

100

'*

+4

100

l'i

+3

XI.

too

+4

XII

100

14

+4

*Tenmaleratatoeachgroup.
tHoursafterhydrocortisone.
TABLE5
ExperimentNo.5EffectofChronicAdmin
istrationOFHrDROCORTISONEONRESPONSE
toInjectedEggWhite

dum
berof

.Treatment

1Hr.Resnonieto
EmWhite

Group

o!+ii+i!+j|+*
!1!

Treatedwithhydrocor
tisone*for14days;'
20rats

1i3'12j5
i

Treatedwithsaline*o.
lutionfor14days;20
rata

8:8'4
!!

TreatedwithACTHt

3:108;2

for14days;20rats

Hydrocortisone20mg.prkg.subcutane
ouslytwicedaily.
tACTH10unitsperkg.intramuscularly
twicedaily.
subcutaneously;>2hr.later2ml.ofegg
whiteperratwasadministeredintraperi
toneally.GroupIIIreceived20mg.perkg.
ofhydrocortisonesolutionintraperitoneally;
}2hr.later2ml.ofeggwhiteperrotwas
administeredintraperitoneally.GroupIV
receivedboth0.1ml.of1:1000epinephrine
hydrochloridesolutionsubcutaneouslyand

50

July1960

STRESSHYPERSENSITIVITYPHENOMENON

TABLEe
ExperimentNo.6EffectofAcuteAdmin
istrationorEpinephrineandHydrocortisone
onHypophtsectomiiedAdrenalectomued
Rats

Nmbef

Num
beroi
RmU

Drufi

1Hr.Rctpenw(e
EggWMte

Group

+1

+J

+i
5
4

+4

I
II
III
IV

5
5
5
5

None
Epinepbrine*
Hydrocortiaonet
Epinephrineand
Hydrocortiaone

1
5

*Epinephrine0.1ml.of1:1000solutionaub
cutaneously.
tHydrocortiaonesolution20rag.perkg.in
traperitoneally.
20mg.perkg.ofhydrocortisoneintra
peritoneally;J4hr.later2ml.ofeggwhite
perratwasadministeredintraperitoneally.
Reactionswereobservedandresultsre
cordedasabove(Table6).Itwillbeseen
thatinhypophysectomizedadrenalectom
izedrats,acombinationofadrenalinand
hydrocortisoneofferedprotection.
RESULTS
ExperimentNo.1.Theresponsesofthe
normalmalerattoinjectionof2.0ml.of
eggwhiteintraperitoneallyincludesevere

swellingofthepaws,snout,tongue,scrotum,
andears.Thisresponseusuallyismani
festedinapproximately1hr.Itispredicated
uponanaturalorinbornhypersensitivity
oftherattoeggalbuminandneedsno
previousconditioning.ReferencetoTable1
revealsthatthisreactionwasblockedduring
theperiodofapproximately1^to2\hr.
afteradministrationofepinephrine,thatis,
wheneggwhitewasadministered%to
1^hr.afteradministrationofepinephrine.
Alesserdegreeofblockagebyepinephrine

wasnotedbeforeandafterthisperiodof
time,butitwillbenotedthatratswere
moresensitivetoinjectionofeggwhite
4to7hr.afterinjectionofepinephrine.
Notonlywereresponsesaccentuated,but
alsothereactionoccurredwithin30min.
afterinjectionofeggwhiteinsteadof1hr.
Figure1illustratesthis"negativephase"of
hyperreactivity.
ExperimentsNo.8and3.Hypophy
sectomizedandadrenalectomizedrats
treatedwithepinephrinerespondedina
manneridenticalwiththatofcontrol
hypophysectomizedandadrenalectomized
rats,withtheexceptionof1group.This
groupreceivedinjectionsofepinephrine
andeggwhitesimultaneously,andwas
affordedsomeslightdegreeofprotection
againsttheanaphylactoidresponse(Tables
2and3),apparentlybecauseoftransient
peripheralvasoconstriction.Theadrenal

EG6WHITE
RESPONSE

HYPOREACTIVE
1+PHASE)

HYPERREACTIVE
(PHASE)

MEASURED

RESPONS

PRESUMEDNATURAL

RESPONSE

V
\
\
\
\

\
\

*
*

TIMEOfAOMINISTIUTlON
OrEMNCPHIIINCHCL
(>CC'/MOO*0kMOI

\
X

*
*

TIMEINHOURS
Flo.1.Curveindicatingtheresponsestoinjectionsofeggwhiteadministered1hr.priortoobservations

31

51

GESCHICKTERXTAL.

Vol.34

ectomizedanimalsrespondedtoinjectionsof
eggwhitemorevigorouslyand,attimes,
withconvulsions.Thiswasmoreconspicuous
thaninthehypophysectomizedanimals.
ExperimentNo.4Itwillbenotedthat
acutetherapywithsingledosesofhydro
cortisonefailedtomodifythereactionto
eggwhite(Table.4).
ExperimentNo.5.Chronictherapywith
bidailydosesofhydrocortisoneandACTH
likewisefailedtomodifythereactionJ&
eggwhite(Table5).^g?'
ExperimentNo.6.Epinephrineandhy
drocortisone,whenadministeredsimul
taneously,preventedtheanaphylactoid
reactioninthehypophysectomizedadrenal
ectomizedrats(Table6).Eithercompound
alonewasineffective.
DISCUSSION
Selye"firstdemonstratedthatthedegree
ofreactionsufferedbytheratuponinjection
ofeggwhitewasameasureoftheprophlogis
ticstatusoftheanimal.Referenceto
Table1establishesthatintactratsremain
inanantiphlogisticstate,failingtoreactto

injectionofeggwhitefor1%to2^hr.
aftertheadministrationofasingledoseof
0.1ml.of1:1000epinephrinesubcutane
ously.Thesefindingsareinaccordwith
thoseofClarkandMacKay,*whoalso
demonstratedblockadeoftheanaphylactoid
reactionbyepinephrine.Furthermore,itwill
benotedthattheanimalsthensuffera
"rebound"effect,becominghyperreactive
for4to7hr.followingadministrationof
epinephrine.Amorerapidonsetandin
creasededemaresultedinreactiontoegg
white.Thisprophlogistichyperreactive
stateis,onoccasion,severeenoughtocause
convulsions.
Wehavereferredtothehypersensitivity
reboundeffectasthe"negativephase."
Duringthenegativephaseratspreviously
treatedwithepinephrinearemoresensitive
totheanaphylactoidreactionthannormal,
untreatedrats.Thisillustratesatemporary
periodofweakeningoftheorganism's
defensesresultingfrompriorstress.
Itseemsthattheseshort,intermittent
periodsofstresscausehypersusceptibility
toanoxiousagent,eggwhite.Oneistempted
tocomparethesefindingswiththedelayed

hypersensitivityresponseofrheumaticfever
andglomerulonephritistostreptococcal
infections,ortotheincreasedincidenceof
pneumonitisandupperrespiratoryin

fectionfollowingsuddenchangesinseasonal
temperature.Italsomaybecomparedto
thepostpuerperalexacerbationsofrheuma
toidarthritis.
Recently,Kitayandhiscoworkers*
havedemonstratedthatasingledoseof
epinephrinetendstodepletetheamountc
ACTHavailableforimmediatereleasefrom
thepituitaryglandinacutedistress.The
pituitaryglandtherebybecomeslessre
sponsivetosuccessivestresses.Ourstudies
areconsistentwiththesefindings.
Althoughthe"negativephase"issimilar
toSelye's*exhaustionstageofthegeneral
adaptationsyndrome,itdiffersbybeinga
moreacute,frequent,andrepetitiveoccur
rence,andofalesserdegreeofseverity
thanthatobservedwithexhaustion(Fig.1).
Itbearsnorelationtodelayedshockandis
reversible.Theorganism'sexpenditurefor
protectionbymeansofthegeneraladapta
tionsyndromeapparentlycandetractfrom
itsabilitytoprovideprotectioninthe
immediatefuture,asillustrated.Within
18hr.theorganismhasreturnedtothe
normalpretreatmentreactivestatus.These
resultsareindicativeofapharmacologic
actionofepinephrinepersistingupto18
hr.,anagentusuallyregardedashavinga
durationofactionofonlyafewminutes.
Inthisrespect,ourresultsparallelthoseof
KaplanandGant,*whohavedemonstrated
adelayedhyperlipemicactionofepi
nephrine.

ReferencestoTables2and3supportthe
contentionthatacuteeffectsofadminis
trationofepinephrineontheeggwhite
reactionaremediated,atleastinpart,via
thepituitaryadrenalaxis.Itwillbenoted
thatepinephrineitselfproducesnopro
tectiveeffectinthehypophysectomizedor
adrenalectomizedrat.Thereareno"nega
tivephase"results.Itwas,therefore,of
additionalinteresttodetermineifthe
effectsofadministrationofepinephrine
weremediatedthroughafinalcommon
pathwayofincreasedproductionofcor
tisone.Evenlarge,singledosesofcortisone
(asrecordedinTable4)failedtoelicita

52

31

JulyI960

STRESSHYPERSENSITIVITYPHENOMENON

protectiveantiphlogisticeffect.Theusual

4to7hr.prophlogisticeffects(negative
phase)weresimilarlyabsent.Itwasnoted
atthistimethatratsinjectedwithlarge
dosesofcortisonebyaninexperienced
technicianwereprotectedagainstthe
anaphylactoidreaction.Itwaspostulated
thattheincreasedmanipulationofthese
ratsresultedinliberationofendogenous
epinephrine,therebyexplainingtheanti
phlogisticprotectiveeffects.
Theforegoingobservationsposedan
interestingquestion.Asingledoseofcor
tisone,carefullyadministeredinagentle
manner(inordertoavoidfrighteningthe
rat,withconcomitantliberationofendog
enousepinephrine)failstobeantiphlogis
tic.Selye10reportedthatchronicad
ministrationofACTHandCortisolis
antiphlogistic.Itseemedpossiblethatthe
stressofdailyinjections,liberatingepine
phrine,ratherthanCortisol,oradministra
tionofACTHmightbethebasisforthe
antiphlogisticstatesoproduced.Forthis
reason,thechroniceffectsofACTHand
Cortisolwereagainstudied.
Thequestionablefactorofepinephrine
liberatedbythedailypainandfrightof
injection,feeding,noise,andcagingwas
minimized.Theanimalswereisolatedina
quietroomand.handledbyskilledworkers.
ReferencetoTablearevealsthatunder
theseconditionsnodifferenceexistsinthe
eggwhitereactivityofcortisoneandsaline
treatedcontrols.Theseresultsarein

agreementwiththosecfMorrisonandhis
coworkers7andofSwingle,1*who,also
failedtopreventtheanaphylactoidreaction
byinjectionofcortisone.Thcssresultsare
inoppositiontothoseofSwingle,1*inthat
epinephrineinourhandspreventedthe
anaphylactoidreactionintheintactrat.
Cannon,1inhisoriginaldemonstrationsof
the"flightorfight"response,measuredthe
abilityoftheorganismtoresistnoxious
attacklargelyintermsofsympathetic
nervoussystemeffectsandepinephrine.
Selye,*inturn,hasdemonstratedcortisone
tobeofvitalimportanceinsimilarsitu
ations.Itnowseemsthatneither,alone,
sufficesformaximaldefensebyendogenous
agents.Both,together,mustbepresentin
increasedquantitiestobeofvalue.Oneis

temptedtoconcludethattheproximityof
theadrenalcortexandadrenalmedullais
morethanaccidental.
Thedatapresentedseemtoillustrate
thenecessityoftheliberationofboth
Cortisolandepinephrine,inordertobring
aboutprotectionagainsttheanaphylactoid
reaction(Table6,GroupIV).
ItisofinteresttonotethatHalpernand
associates4observedthattreatmentwith
cortisonemayenableadrenalectomizedmice
totolerate5otherwiselethaldosesof
histamine.Epinephrinealoneenabledadren

alectomizedmicetotolerate5to10lethal
dosesofhistamine.Together,epinephrine
andcortisoneenabledtheadrenalectomized
animaltotolerate50to100lethaldosesof
histamine,therebyrestoringhistaminetoler
ancetonormallevels.
Itseemsthattheprotectionexpendedin
wardingoffthenoxiousanaphylactoid
reactionimposesthehazardoffuture
hypersusceptibility.Thelatterhasbeen
termedbyusa"negativephase."Itsrole
inhumandiseaseremainstobeelucidated.
Thesestudies,however,suggestthatthe
abilityofthehumanbodytowithstandthe
onslaughtofdiseasefollowingshortboutsof
stress,whetherpsychicorphysical,shou.'d
receivemorestudy.
Itisknownfromclinicalandsubjective
experiencethatstressprovokedbypsychic
mediation'evolveswithinseconds,rather
thaninthe30ormoreminutesrequiredfor
epinephrinetomediatetheprotective
actionofthegeneraladaptationsyndrome.
Itthereforeseemspossiblethatpsychic
stimulation,operatingbyneuralpathways,
canactdirectlyonendorgans,including
theadrenalmedullaandperhapsthecortex,
withoutinvolvingthehypophysis.Thisis
suggestedinourexperimentsbythefactthat
theinjectionofbothadrenalinandcortisone
affordsomeprotectionintheabsenceofthe
hypophysisandtheadrenalgland.The
immediateeffectsofstresswillbethe
subjectofasubsequentpaper.

SUMMARY
1.Theeffectsofacuteepisodesofstress
weremeasured,usingtheeggwhiteanaphy
lactoidreaction.
2.A"negativephase"periodofhy

53

GESCHICKTEHSTAL.

VoL.SU

persensitivitywaselucidated.Itoccurs

shortlyaftertheinitialprotectionafforded
bystresstotheorganism.Thesignificance
ofthe"negativephase"responsewas
discussed.
3.Acorelationshipofepinephrineand
cortisoneinstressreactionswasdemon
strated.Neithersingularlysufficestoevoke
thedegreeofprotectionelicitedbythe
combinationofthe2substances.
SUMMARIOININTERLINOUA
1.Leeffectosdeepisodiosdestressacute
essevamesuratepermediodelreactionana
phylactoideaclaradeovo.
2.Unperiodode"phasenegative"del
hypersensibilitateessevaconstatate.Illo
occurrebrevementepostleprotectioninitial
queesproviditealorganismoperlestress.
Lesignificationdelresponsade"phasenega
tive"esdiscutite.
3.Uncorelationdeepinephrinaedecor
tisonainreactionesdestressessevademons
trate.Nileunnilealteresolsufficeaevocar
legradodeprotectionqueesevocateperle
2substantiasincombination.
REFERENCES
1.Cannon,W.B.:BodilyChangesinPain,
Hunger,FearandRage,Ed.2.NewYork:
D.AppletonACompany,1934,p.404.

2.Clark,W.G..andMacKat,E.M.:Effect
of(epinephrineand/arterenoloneggwhite
edemaintherat.Proc.Soc.Exper.Biol.
&Med.,71:8687,1949.
3.Gescricxtei,CF.,Athanasiadoc,P.A.,
andO'Mallet,W.E.:Theroleofmucino
lysisincollagendisease.Am.J.Clin.
Path.,30:93111.1968.
4.Halpern,B.N\,Benacerraf,B.,and
Briot,M.:Potentiationbyadrenalineof
protectiveeffectofcortisoneonhistamine
toxicityinadrenalectomiiedmice.Proc.
Soc.Exper.Biol.*Med.,79:3739,1952.
5.Kaplan,A.,andGaNT,M.:Epinephrineand
bloodlipids.PaperpresentedatAmerican
PhysiologicalSociety,SanFrancisco,Cali
fornia,1955.
6.Kitat,J.I.,Holvb,D.A.,andJailer,J.W.:
"Inhibition"ofpituitaryACTHrelease
afteradministrationofreserpineorepineph
rine.Endocrinology,66:548554,1959.
7.Morrison,J.L.,Richardson,A.P.,and
Bloom,W.L.:Effectsofantihistaminic

agentsonreactionofrattodextran.Arch,
internat.pharmacodyn.,88:98105.1951.
8.Selte,H.:Thealarmreaction(abstract).
Canad.M.A.J..34:706,1936.
9.Selte,H.:Asyndromeproducedbydiverse
nocuousagents.Nature,138:32,1936.
10.Selte,H.:Studiesonadaptation.En
docrinology,21:169188,1937.
11.Selte,H.,andJasmin,G.:Screeningof
possibletherapeuticagentsbymeansof
experimentalreplicasofconnectivetissue
diseases.Ann.NewYorkAcad.Sc.,64:
481193,19561957.
12.Swingle,W.W.:Unpublishedobservations.
QuotedbyCohen,H.,Graff,M.,and
Kleinbkro,W;:Inhibitionofdextran
edemabyproteolyticenzvmes.Proc.Soc.
Exper.Biol.*Med.,88:517519,1955.

54

aawurJoobbaiiorCwjwim.Paoommt
VoLM.No.1.Aajo*.Ml*,pp.HUl
PrbHitnVJS.A.

THEROLEOFMUCIN0LYSI3INCOLLAGENDISEASE
CHARLESF.GESCHICKTER,M.D..PANAYIOTAA.ATHANASIADOU,MD.,ax
W.EDWARDCMALLEY,Ph.D.
DepartmentofPathology,GeorgetownUnivertitySchoolofMedicineandDentiltry,Washington,D.C.

Thetermcollagendisease,accordingto
lUemperer*refersto"generalisedalteration
oftheconnectivetissue,particularlyto
abnormalitiesofitsextracellularcompo
nent,..."and"includesrheumaticfever,
rheumatoidarthritis,polyarteritis,acute
lupuserythematosus,generalizedsclero
dermaanddennatomyositis."Hinge*first
proposedthatthisgroupofrheumatoid
diseasesrepresentspathologicallyasystemic

involvementoftheentireconnectivetissue
ofthehumanbody;andhepostulatedthat
theintercellularcomponentsaretheprimary
siteofdamage..
Thehistopathologicfeaturescommonto
thisgroupofdiseasesare:
1.Mucinousormyxoiddegenerationof
thegroundsubstanceofconnectivetissue.
2.fibrinoiddegenerationinvolvingboth
thematrixandcollagenousfibers.
3.Vasculitisofmediumsizedandsmall
bloodvessels,varyingfromthrombonecrosis
toperivascularedemaand"cuffing"with
plasmacellsandmonocytes.
4.Focalhistologicchangespeculiarto
theindividualcollagendisease,suchasthe
Aschoffbodyinacuterheumaticfever,
rheumatoidnodulesinrheumatoidarthritis,
"wirelooping"intheglomeruliofdis
seminatedlupuserythematosus,andcapil
laryplateletthrombosisinthrombocytopenic
purpura.
Amongthehistochemicalreactionsob
servedare:
1.TheformationofL.E.cells,which
containdepolymerizeddesoxyribosenucleic
acid.
2.Elevationofhexosamineintheblood

serum(fromsplitglycoproteins).
Received,February3,1958;revisionreceived,
March13;acceptedforpublicationMarch17.
Dr.GeschickterisProfessorofPathology,and
Dra.AthanasiadouandO'MalleyareResearch
Assistants.
ThisworkwassupportedbyagrantfromThe
GeschickterFundforMedicalResearch.

3.Elevationofserumglobulin(alpha2
Orgamma).
4.Ameliorationofclinicalmanifestations
byadministrationofadrenocorticotrophic'
(ACTH)oradrenalcorticalhormones.
Whetherthecollagendiseasesrepresent
examplesofthehypersensitivitystateor
belongtothecategoryofendocrineim
balanceresultingfromthegeneraladapta
tionsyndromeisstilldisputedIgnoranceof
theetiologyoftheseconditionsmakesit
impossibletostatewhetherallofthe
diseasesproposedforthiscategoryactually
belongthere.Theproblemofetiologywould
beadvancedatleast1stepforward,ifit
couldbedemonstratedthatthepathologic
andhistochemicalfeaturesreferredtoabove
couldbereproducedexperimentallybya
singleagentofinjury.Thepresentreport
indicatesthatasimplechemicalcompound

canbeusedtoreproducethemainfeatures
ofallthecollagendiseasesinexperimental
animals.
Ananticollagenchemicalsubstance.Sev
eralcompoundsofthephenylenediamine
classhavebeenutilizedinbiologicworkas
dyeindicators.McLeod4usedbothdimethyl
ortetramethylpphenylenediaminehydro
chloridetostudytheoxidationreactionsof
gonococcicorganisms.Morerecently,Aker
feldt1usedthedimethylaminoderivativeof
thiscompoundtostudythereactionofthe
seruminthemajorpsychoses.Wechosean
isomerofthiscompound,N,N'dimethylp
phenyienediamine,whichwillbereferredto
asDT,P.Ithastheformulashownin
Figure1.
Thepreparationofdiaminecompound
usedintheseexperimentswasthecrystalline
basepreparedin2percentoilysolution.This
wasappliedbyrepeateddailybrushingsto
theshavedskinofrats.Theaqueoussolution
ofthedihydrochloridesalt,however,alsowas
usedforintramuscularandintravenousinjec
tionsinotheranimals.Exceptforsomeacute
experiments,Wistarratsweighingapproxi

93

55

94

GEBCHICKTERMTAL.

Vol.SO

^C^

Fio.1.FormulaofDT,P
mately120Gin.eachwereused.Themain
featuresoftheresultsobtainedareshownin
theaccompanyingillustrations.Thevarious
focallesionsofthecollagendiseaseswere
reproducedhistologically,includingAschoff
likebodies,therheumatoidnodules,capil
laryplateletthrombi,glomeruli"wire
looping,"andfocalfibrinoiddegeneration.
Inaddition,animalsonchronictreatment
showeda2foldenlargementoftheadrenal

cortex,and(apparentlyasaresultofsuch
adrenalchanges)therewasfocaldestruction
oflymphoidtissueandsplenomegaly.Be
causethechemicalusedappearedtoproduce
itseffectsthroughitsmucinolyticactionon
theconnectivetissuematrix,particular
attentionwasgiventochangesinthemucosa
ofthegastrointestinaltract,whichincluded
multiplepepticulcerswithacharacteristic
punchedoutappearance.
Theresultsobtaineddonotenableusto
statewhatrole,ifany,thisparticular
chemicalcompoundplayBinthehisto
genesisandetiologyofthecorresponding
naturaldiseasestatesinman.
Experimentalprocedure*.Intheinitial
experiment,24Wistarmalerats,weighing
100Gm.each,werepaintedtwicedaily
witha5percentsolutionofN,N'dimethyl
pphenyleDediamine.Thepurebasewas
dissolvedin80percentdiethylhexyl
hexahydrophthalateand20percentbenzyl
alcohol,andappliedtoashavedareaofskin
onthethighapproximately2by3cm.in
site.TherodentsdiedwitJhin36to72hr.
Vesiclesorulcerationsoftheskinappeared
inallratslivingmorethan48hr.Insomeof
theseratsatautopsytheadrenalswere

enlargedandhemorrhagic.Histologicstudies
wereperformedonlyontheskin.

Inasecondseriesofexperiments,3groups
ofWistarmalerats,weighing120Gm.
each,werepainteddaily(exceptSunday),
onthesurfaceoftheshavedskinofthe
thighoveranareaofapproximately2by3
cm.Thediaminecompoundintheformof
thepurebasewasdissolvedinthediethyl
hexylhexahydrophthalatebenxylalcoholso
lutionreferredtoabove.
GroupI,consistingof8ratsand4con
trols,waspaintedwitha2percentsolution.
GroupII,consistingof8ratsand4
controls,waspaintedwitha1percent
solution.
GroupIII,consistingof8ratsand4
controls,waspaintedwitha0.5percent
solution.
Thesolutionusedforpaintingisanon
volatileoilysolutionpreparedfromthebase.
Inhalationisnotacomplicationbutthe
animalsbiteandlicktheirritatedsurface
andingestionandaspirationofthematerial
probablyexplainsthetendencyforthe
pulmonaryvesselstoshowthemoststriking
changes.Italso.probablyaccountsforthe
appearanceofpepticulcersinsomeofthe
animals,althoughitdoesnotoccurinallof
them.Theanimalswerenotkeptinindi
vidualcages.
GroupI,highdotage.Theratsfailedto
gaininweightanddiedbetween10and15

days,livingontheaverage12days.The
skinshowedulcerationandvesicles,butthe
manifestationswerenotasextensiveaswith
the5percentsolution.Atnecropsy,the
adrenalsdidnotappeartobeenlarged.The
spleenandlymphoidtissuesshowedBlight
atrophy.Therewasincreasedsecretionin
thebronchi,pulmonaryedema,andcon
gestion,andtherightheartwasdilated.
Microscopically,exudationofplasma(so
calledlymphorrhagia)aboutthesmaller
pulmonaryvesselswasconspicuous(Fig.2).

Fio.2(upper).Change*intheTeaselsofthelung.Thereisaperivascularcollarofedemaandthe
endothelialcellsprojectintothelumenofthevessels.Theratwasbrushed7timeswitha2percent
solutionofDT,Panddiedonthe8thday.Hematoxylinandeosin.X50.
Fio.3(lower).Aschofflikecellularaggregatesandcapillarydilatationinthemyocardium.The
cellularaggregates,whichareadjacenttosmallvessels,areattheleftandrightportionoftheband
ofmusclefiberswhichrunsdiagonallyacrossthephotograph.Thelong,slitlikespacesaredilatedcapil
laries.Thisratwasbrushed6timeswitha2percentsolutionofDT,Panddiedonthe7thday.Hema
toxylinandeosin.X100.

57

96

GEBCHICKTERXTAL.

Vol.SO

Fio.4.HighermagnificationofthecellularaggregatesinFigure3.Intbeupper
leftcorner(about11o'clock)isatypicalAnitschkowcell,andinthelowerright
corner(about5o'clock)isanAachoncell.Notethespillingoftheerythrocytesfrom
rupturedcapillariesillustratedintheupperportionofthephotomicrograph.Hema
toxylinandeosin.X220.

Thebasementmembraneofthesesmall
vesselsshowedsmudginganddissolution,
andtheendothelialliningcells,someof
whichweredetached,projectedintothe
lumen.Intbehearttherewerefociofendo
thelialcells(apparentlyliberatedbydis
solutionofadjacentcapillaries)lying

betweenthemyocardialfibers.Someofthe
sectionsshowedAschofflikecellularag

gregates(Figs.3and4).Therewere
uuuierousJilatr*vascularspaceslinedbya
singlelayerofendotheliumsurroundedby
extravasatederythrocytes,wlriehwere
interpretedascapillaryaneurysms.Insu:re

Fig.5(upper).Sectionthroughthecortexoftheadrenalrevealinghyperplasiaandcytoplasmic
vacuoles.Theadrenalsweregrosslyenlargedto4timestheirsite.Thisratwasbrushedwitha1per
centsolutionofD'P.P.Theanimaldiedutter2months.Hematoxylinandeosin.X130
Fic.6(lower).LowpowerphotomicrographofthestomachillustratingIofseveralpepticulcers
whichwerepresentinthisanimal.Thereisasharpcrateroverlaidbydesquamatedremnantsofthe
glandularmucosa.PepticulcerscanbeproducedmoreconsistentlybyoraladministrationofD'P.P
thanbyapplicationtotheshavedskin.Althoughthisanimalwasbrushedwitha1pencentsolution,
itispossiblethematerialwasswallowedbylickingthewounds.Hematoxylinandeosin.X30.

59

98

OESCHICKTERSTAL.

Vol.30

ofthesmallarteriesinthemyocardium,
changesinthebasementmembraneand
intimastainedpositivelywithperiodicacid
Schiffstain,indicatingtheliberationof
mucopolysaccharidematerial.
Inthesynovialmembranesoftheknee
jointthecapillarieswerecongestedand
dilated,someofthemundergoinglysis.
Therewassmudgingofthegroundsub
stanceimmediatelybeneaththemesothelial
lininglayerofthesynovialsurface.Inthe
bonemarrowthecapillariesweredilated,and
therewereareasofcoagulatedextravasated
fluid.Thebonemarrowelementsappeared
normal.Thespleenshowedcompletedisap
pearanceofitslymphoidpulp,andthe
survivinggerminalcentersshowedfocal
necrosis.Thethymusandlymphnodeswere
similarlyaffected.Theotherorganswere
negative.Nosignificantchangeswerefound
intheanimateofthecontrolgroup.
GroupIt,middledotage.Theseratsliveda
maximumperiodof2monthsanddied
usuallybetweenthethirtiethandsixtieth
day.Theyfailedtogainweight.Atautopsy,
thelungswerecongestedandedematous;
Therewassomethickeningofthewallsof
smallarteriesinthelungsbutnotofthe
veins.Histologically,therewassome"onion
peeling"ofthesmallarteriesandarterioles,
butsimilarchangeswerefoundinsomeof
theanimalsinthecontrolgroup.Theheart
wasdilatedandtheadrenalsweremarkedly
enlarged.Microscopically,theadrenals

showedcorticalhypertrophyandvacuoliza
tionofcellsinthezonafasciculate(Fig.5).
Thespleenandlymphoidtissueswere
similartoGroupI.Microscopically,the
spleenshowedreductionoflymphoidtissue
andnecrosisofgerminalcenters,with
increasednumberofmacrophages,manyof
whichwerebinucleated.Theheartshowed
focalfibrosisandaggregatesofhistiocytes
butnotypicalAschoffbodies.Thejoint
changesinanimalsthatdiedearlywere
similartoGroupI.Inthegastricmucosa,
themucusinthesuperficialglandular

cryptswasreducedandpepticulcerswere
present(Fig.6).Nosuchchangeswere
foundintheahirnabofthecontrolgroup.
GroupIII,lowdotage.Someoftheratsin
thisgroupdied6weeksafterthebeginning
oftheexperiments,butsomewerestill
living3monthslater.Theanimalsshowed
progressivegaininweight.Atautopsy,the
outstandingfindingwasendothelialpro
liferationoftheliningofsmallpulmonary
vessels.Insomeofthevesselsthelumenwas
practicallyoccluded.Thesevesselslookedas
iftheywerebeingrecanalizedinplacesand
somevesselslookedalmostlikeglomeruli.
Theendothelialproliferationinplacesex
tendedintotheadjacentseptumsofthelung.
Thiswasfoundinonly2rats,whomayhave
aspiratedthecompoundwhilelickingtheir
wounds(Fig.7).Ingestionofthecompound

inthismannermayalsohavesomethingto
dowiththeformationofpepticulcers,since
animalswhoarefedD'P,Pdieofperforated
pepticulcers.Theseoralexperimentswere
performedbyDr.A.I.Miller,Emory
University,Atlanta,Georgia.
Thespleenwaspracticallydevoidof
lymphoidtissueandusuallytwiceitsnormal
weight.Thepulpcontainedmanymacro
phageswithnumerousfoamcells,andthere
weresomegranulocytesbutpracticallyno
lymphocytes.Afewgerminalcenterswere
intact(Fig.8).Theheartshowedareasof
fibrinoiddegenerationandaggregatesof
Anitschkow'scells,similartothoseshownin
Figure9.Inthecoronarycirculation,the
wallsofthecapillariesweredisintegrating,
andtheliberatedendothelialcellsaccumu
latedabouttheadjacentarterioles.The
adjacentmyofibrilswerenecroticand
hyalinized.Thesechangeswerenotas
widespreadasintheratsonhigherdosage.
Thekneejointsshowedthemicroscopic
featuresofrheumatoidarthritiswiththe
formationofrheumatoidnodulesinthe
synovialmembrane(Fig.10)?Thebone
marrowwasnotremarkable.Thebrainsand
kidneyswerenormalinappearance.Idthe

Fio.7(upper).Endothelialproliferationpluggingasmallvesselinthelung.Thisanimalwaspainted
withan0.5percentsolutionofD'P,Pdailyandlived6weeks.Hematoxylinandeosin.X228.
Fio.8(lower).Lowpowerphotomicrographofspleen.Thepulpisentirelyreplacedbyredblood

cellsandafewscatteredmacrophages.Thefocalareasoflymphocytesareremnantsofthegerminal
centers.ThisanimalwaspainteddailyexceptSundayfora5weekperiodwitha0.5percentsolution.
Hematoxylinandeosin.X30.

61

100

OESCHICKTERBTAt,.

Vol.30

Flo.9.HighpowerphotomicrographofanAaehoffbodyillustratingtypicalAnitschkow's
cells.TwocapillariesamMen,1inlongitudinalandtheotherincrosssection.TheAnitschkow
eel!aseemtobedevelopinginthewallofthecapillary.Notethemitoticfigureintheupper
portionofthephotograph.Thisanimalwasbrushedwitha2percentsolutionofD'P,Pdaily
and'lived7days.Hematoxylinandeoain.X400.

regionofthekidneysandpancreas,smallto
mediumsuedvesselsshowedthrombone
crosisormarkedendothelialproliferation
similartothatfoundinthelungs(Fig.11).
Theskinshowedepidermalhyperplasia

ratherthannecrosisinthepaintedareas.In
thesubcutaneoustissueoftheseregions
therewasmarkededemaandfibrosiswith
lossofcollagenfibrils,simulatingsclero
derma(Fig.12).Attimesthisinvolvedthe
dermaandwasaccompaniedbyatrophyof

thehairfollicles.Inthevoluntarymuscles
beneaththepaintedareas,therewere
collectionsofplasmacellsandlymphocytes
aboutdamagedbloodvessels,simulating
thelesionsofdermatomyositis.Inother
placesthedegenerationofmusclefibers
resembledmusculardystrophy.Intheliver
therewereincreasednumbersofcellswith
acidophiliccytoplasmandbinucleatedforms
butnofocalnecrosis.Someofthelivercells
werevacuolated;othersshowedhyaline

Fio.10(upper).Rheumatoidnoduledevelopinginthesynovialmembraneofaknee
joint.Thelesionextendsalmosttothemesotheliallining.Thelinepassingthroughthecenterof
thephotographisanartifact.Thisanimalwasbrushedwithan0.5percentsolutionof
DT.Pdailyandwassacrificedafter3months.Hematoxylinandeosin.X128.
Fio.11(lower).Arterymanifestingthromboneerosiaandperivascularinfiltrate.The
vesselisintheperirenalfat.PromthesameanimalillustratedinFigure10.Hematoxylin
andeosin.X50.

63

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GESCHICKTEHXTAL.

Vol.SO

dropletdegeneration,andthenucleiwereof
varyingsiteanddensity.Someofthesmall
hepaticvesselsshowedendothelialpro
liferationasinthelungs.Theadrenalswere
enlargedasaresultofcorticalhypertrophy.
Allzonesoftheadrenalshowedincreased
vascularity.Thecontrolratsshowedno
significantchanges.
Acuteexperiments.Intheanimalssurviv
ing10ormoredays,nomembranous
glomerulitiswasfoundandthe"wire
looping"ofdisseminatedlupuserythema
tosuswasnotreproduced.Theoretically,the
lapseoftimebeforesacrificewassufficient
toallowthechemicalcompoundtoactasa
hapten*andcombinewithserumalbumin
andproduceanantigeniceffect.Inorderto

resolvethisquestionofapossiblehyper
sensitivityreactionandtoproducemore
acutelesionsthatmightinvolvethekidney,
smallerratswerechoseninpreferenceto
raisingthedosageofthecompound.The
experimentalprocedurewasrepeatedwith
24rats,thistimeusingmalesweighing60to
80Gm.each.Theanimalswerepair.teddaily
witha2percentsolutionofthediamine
compoundpreparedby2separatechemical
laboratoriesinordertoinsurethatthe
experimentswouldbereproducible(this
compoundundergoesdarkeningthrough
oxidation).Theseanimalsweresacrificedat
intervalsof2to4days.Thecharacteristic
changesinthemyocardiumwereproduced,
aswellasmembranousglomerulitisinthe
kidneys,withtypical"wirelooping,"char
acteristicofdisseminatedlupuserythema
tosus(Fig.13).Someoftheseratsalso
showedperivascularlesionsofthebrainin
'Anotherlineofevidenceindicatingthatthe
diaminecompounddoesnotactashaptenwas
obtainedbyinjectingagroupof12guineapigs
withthematerialin0.5percentsolutionintra
muscularlydailyfoe6weeks.Theseanimalsfailed
todevelopanaphylaxisandallsurvivedthe
treatment.

theformofsmallfocalaccumulationsof
mononuclearcellsresemblingtyphusnodules
(Fig.14andTable1).

D'P,Ponkypophyaedomuedrats.Since
D'P.Pproducesenlargementoftheadrenals
andatrophyoflymphoidtissues,itsmech
anismofactionispossiblythatofastressor
oralarmingsubstance(asnotedabove,its
roleasahaptencouldnotbedemonstrated).
Inordertotestthisinterpretation,2groups
of10eachofmalehypophysectomizedrats,
weighing120Gm.each,werepaintedwitha
2percentsolutionofD'P,Pasdescribedin
thepreviousexperiments.Ifthissubstance
isadrenalinlikeinaction,hypophysectomy
shouldblockitsuntowardeffectuponthe
collagenmatrixofconnectivetissue.The
resultsobtainedpartiallysupportthis
interpretation.Intheanimalssurviving2to
4weeks,characteristicchangeswereob
servedaboutthesmallerpulmonaryvessels.
Botharteriesandveinsweresurroundedbya
collarofedemaandmonocytes,andtheir
endothelialliningwasdestroyedinpatches
orreduplicated.Someofthevesselscon
tainedsmallmuralthrombi.Anumberofthe
animalsshowed.pepticulcers.However,no
characteristicrheumatoidnoduleswere
foundinthesynovialmembraneoftheknee
joint,althoughinplacesthesynoviallining
cellswerereduplicatedto4to6layersand
staineddeeplywithhematoxylinandeosin.
Insomeanimalsthesynovialmembrane
showedhighlyvascularpapillaryprotrusions
inwhichtheconnectivetissuecellshad
proliferatedaboutdilatedcapillaries.The
myocardiumshowedcapillarydilatationbut
noAschoffbodiesorproliferationofendo
thelialcellswerefound.Adrenalcortical

hypertrophywasabsent,andthelymphoid
tissueofthespleen,thymusandlymph
nodeswasunaltered.Ingeneral,thechanges
werenotstrikingoutsideofthelungsand
gastrointestinaltract.Theskinchanges
werenotsuggestiveofscleroderma.It

Fio.12(upper).Dense,Sbroticscarringinvolvingthesubcutaneousregioninthe,areapaintedwith
D'P.Pina2percentnotationdailyfor6daysandsacrificedontheseventhday.'Remnants<ofhair
folliclesshowintheupperportionofthephotograph.Notethesmallthrombosedvessel.Theunder
lyingmusculatureisshowninthelowerlefthandcorner.Similarchangeswerefoundintheskinof
animalspaintedwith0.5perrentsolution,whosurvivedforlongerthan2months.Hematoxylin
andeosin.X28.
Fio.13(lower).Hyalinthrombiinenrlymembranousglomerulitisinan80Gm.ratthatwa*brushed
witha2percentsolutionofD'P.Pfor3days.Hematoxylinandeosin.X323.

;_.'j

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Occasional
peptic
ulcer

Joints:Rheumatoid
nodulesinsynovial
membrane.
Skin:Epidermalhy
perplasia;fibrosisof
dermasimulating
scleroderma

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2.

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Markedhyper
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perplasiaof
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Thrombonecrosis
ofhmJiun

sisedvMlaof
kidneyand
pancreas

Pluggingofsmallpuimonaryves
selsbyendothelialcells.Occa
sional.Aachoffbodiesinmyo
cardiumwithadjacentfibrinoid
degeneration;necrosisandhy
ajinitationofmyocardialfibers.

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67

106

GE8CHICKTBRETAt.

Vol.30

appeared,therefore,thatD'P.PhasV.
directmucinolyticeffectinthetissueswhich
itreachesinhighconcentration,butwide
spreadcollagendiseaseisnotproduced
unlessthe.generaladaptationsyndromeis
provokedin.anintactanimal.Theim
portanceofthetissueconcentrationof
D'P.Pinproducingcollagendiseaseby
directactionisfurtherindicatedbyvascular
and'glomerulardamage,whichwehave
producedinthedog'skidneybyretrograde
intravenousinjectionintherenalvein,
whichwillbereportedinasubsequent
communication.
Thehypophysectomieswereapparently
adequatesincealloftheanimalsshowed
absenceofspermatogenesisandvarying
degreesoftesticularatrophy.Inthese
hypophysectomizedanimalspaintedwith
DT,P,regressivechangeswerefoundin
theadrenalmedulla.Themedullarycells
showedshrinkageandvacuolizationoftheir
cytoplasmwithpersistenceofsparsenum

bersoflargeeosinophiliccells,whichre
sembledganglioncells.
Adrenalectomysimilartohypophy
sectomyabolishesmostof.thechanges
observed'withDT,P.Theanimalsdonot
toleratetheskinapplicationsanddieearly.
Theeffectoftheadrenalectomyandad
ministrationofcortisonewillbediscussed
inasubsequentcommunication.
DISCUSSION'
TheeffectofD'P,Ponthecementand
groundsubstance*.Apparentlytheprimary
effectofDT,Pistoproducehydrationof
themucopolysaccharidestructure,ofbase
mentmembranesandgroundsubstancein
mesenchymaltissues.Themucininthe
glandsofthegastrointestinaltractisalso
affected.Apparentlythemostsensitive
tissuecomponentisthecementsubstancein
theendothelialwallofcapillaries,perhaps
becausethisisthesiteoftheinitialcontact

inthetissue.Theearlieststageis"soften
ing,"whichallowsthecapillary,wallto
stretchandformaneurysmaldilatations
(Fig.15).Inthebasementmembrane
behindtheendotheliuminprecapillary
arteriesandinarteriolesthishydrationcan
beseenhistologicallyasachainofsmall
bubbles,whichwehavetermed"beading"
(Figs.16and17).Inthenextstage,the

capillarywalldisintegratesandtheviable
endothelialcellsandintacterythrocytesspill
intothetissuespacesatthepointofrupture.
Behindtherupturethefreeendsofthe
capillaryattimesretractintotheadjacent
precapillaryarterySoformathrombus
encircledbyadoublerowofendothelial
cells.Intheheart,theliberatedendothelial
cellsfrominjuredcapillariesproliferateand
migratetowarddamagedarteriolesandform
AschoffIikecellularaggregates(Fig.18).
Insubsequentstages,thereismorewide
spreaddamage,whichresultsinfusionof
erythrocytes,condensationofgroundsub
stancetoformfibrinoiddegenerationand
liquefactionofotherportionsofthematrix,
probablyaidedbyplasmaleakingfrom
rupturedcapillaries.Thisisfollowedby
shreddingofthecollagenfiberswithsubse
quentnecrosisofthesestructuresand
adjacentmusclecells.Fibroblastsaremo
bilizedashistiocytesandshowfrequent
mitoticfigures.Myocardialcellsareliberated
also.Depolymerizationandhydrolysisseems
toaffectthenonviablecementandground
substancesandlaterthecollagenfibers.The
primaryeffectismucinolysisthatresultsin
angjblysisandstromatolysis.Thisdeduction,
webelieve,isjustifiedbythecorresponding
changesobservedinthemucousglandsand
liningceltsofthegastrointestinaltracts
(Figs.6and19).However,theforegoing
interpretationswillrequireadditionalex
perimentalverification.
Accordingtothelatestchemicalstudies

6lcollagen,fibrinoiddegenerationdoesnot

Fio.16(upper).Capillarythrombosisandhydropicchangeinthebasementmembrane
ofprecapillaryarteryina43yearoldpatientwithrheumaticfever,dyingfollowingvalvu
lotomy.Thevesselwasin>>Rcsisges.Thethrombosedcapillaryisinvaginatedinthe
precapillaryartery.Hematoxylinandeostn.X420.
Fio.17(lower).Socalledplateletthrombiofthesmallvessels;intheperirenalfatofan
80Gm.ratbrushedwitha2percentsolutionofI)'P,Pdailyfor3days.Notethedoubleendo
thelialwallindicatinginvaginationintheprecapillaryartery.Notethehydropicchanges!in
theendothelialcytoplasmoftheouterwall.ComparewithFigure16.Hematoxylinandeosin.
X323.

69

108

GESCHICKTERXTAl.

Vol.30

initiallyinvolvethecollagenbundlesof
wellformedconnectivetissuefibers.In
ordertoemphasizethesequenceofevents,
itisimportanttoreviewthecompositionof
connectivetissue.RobbSmith*hasdenned
connectivetissueasacontinuousmatrix
varyinginconsistencyfromthelimpidnessof
Wharton'sjellyoftheumbilicalcordtothe
hardnessofbone,inwhichliesaninterlacing
fabricoffibersofdifferentsortsandwhich
isbathingisolatedorcloselysetcells.This
continuousmatrixpervadesthespaces
betweentheorgansandmajorvesselsand
suppliesthecapsule,aswellastheirsup
portingstroma,forthesemajorstructures.
Withinthismatrixthefibroblastsshow
variousstagesofdevelopmentfromreticu
lumcellstoadultfibrocytesandalsoa
parallellineofdevelopment(usuallyunder
pathologicconditions)fromreticulumcells
tohistiocytes(Fig.20).Thereisanaddi
tionalspecializedcomponentofconnective
tissue,thebasementmembrane.Thematrix
ofconnectivetissuecontainsavarietyof
mucopolysaccharides,suchashyaluronic
acidandchondroitinsulfateincombination
withproteins.Inthismatrixoreembedded
fibersofcollagen,reticulinandelastica,
whicharedefinedasprecipitatedsclero
proteins.Theelasticadoesnotconcernus
here,butthereticulinandcollagenfibersdo.
Thecollagenfibersarepolymerizedpoly
peptides,whichareorientedinlinearfashion
andcontainasmallamountofmuco
polysaccharide.Thereticulinfibrilsare

similar,buttheirpolypeptidelinkagesare
nonoriented.Theymaybetermedpro
collagenfibrilsbecauseoftheirless
differentiatedstructure.Bothfibersare
precipitatedorformedfromthematrix,
influencedbythefibroblastinamanneryet
tobedetermined.Thethirdnoncellular
structure,thebasementmembrane,is
formedfromreticulinfibersandcondensed
matrix,whichstainsmoreintensivelyfor
mucopolysaccharidesthanthegroundsub
stance.Thiscondensedmatrixatthebase
mentmembraneisusuallytermedcementin

andalsoformsthebindingsubstance
betweentheendothelialcellsinthecapillary
wall.
HutogenetiMoftheAschoffbody.The
damagetothecementinofcapillariesisthe
earliestdemonstrablechangeintheexperi
mentalproductionofcollagendiseasede
scribedhere.Becausethisisbestseeninthe
myocardium,theprobablehistogenesisof
theAschoffbodycanbetracedfromthis
initialchange.Followingtheformationof
capillaryaneurysms,whichisthefirst
changeobserved,thereisleakageofplasma
andhydrationofthegroundsubstancewith
subsequentdamagetocollagenfibrils.
Capillaryaneurysmsandhydrationofthe
groundsubstancearefoundwithin36to48
hr.aftertheinitialpaintingwithDT,P.
Within48to96hr.,thereisdissolution

ofcapillaries,liberationoftheviableendo
thelialcellsandproliferationoffibroblasts
intheedematousmatrix.Withinthisperiod
thesemobilizedendothelialcellsandfibro
blastsclumptogetherarounddamaged
arteriolestoformtheearliestcellular
aggregates,whichmaybelookeduponas
ascepticgranulomasformedinpartbythe
sacrificialdissolutionofadjacentcapillaries.
Within5to7days,thegranulomascontinue
toenlargeandareaccompaniedbychanges
ofearlydissolutionofcollagenfibersand
thedepositionoffibrinoidmaterial.From8
daysto2weeks,thereisaprogressiveac
cumulationofAnitschkow'scellsfromthe
damagedmyocardialfibersandfurther
fibrinoiddegenerationandcontinuedfibro
blasticproliferation.Thus,bothendothelial
cellproliferationandmigratingandpro
liferatingfibroblastscontributetothe
formationofAschofflikebodies,whichform
afterthesefixedcellsarefreefromthe
capillarycementinandtheconnectivetissue
matrix,respectively(Table2).
CONCLUSIONS
Asimpleirritantamine,whichisastrong
reducingagentandwhichapparentlylyses
thematrixofconnectivetissue,iscapableof

Fio.18(upper).Asehofflikecellularaggregate*inprocessofformationinratreceiving7brush
ing*of2percentsolutionofD'P.P.Theanimaldiedontheeighthday.Thecellularaggregates
areendothelialcellsmigratingfromrupturedcapillaries,seentotheleft.Hematoxylinandeosin.X230.
Fig.19(lower).Mucinolysisinthemucousglandsofthelarynxmanifestingcompletedissolution
ofacinarcontent.ThisistakenfromtheratwiththepepticulcerillustratedinFigure6.Hematoxylin
andeosin.X220.

71

no

GE3CHICKTKRXTAL.

Vol.30

t.

ENDOTHELIUM

CAPILLARY

CEMENTSUBSTANCE
RETICULARFIBERS

ELASTICFIBERS
MUCOPOLYSACCHARIDE
.OROONOSUBSTANCE

COLLAGENFIBERS

Fio.20.Diagramillustratingthecomponentsofstromalconnectivetissueandtheirrelation
tothecapillarywall.
TABLE2
EvolutionorExpkumentalAschoffBodiesinRatsTkbatedwith
N.N'DiubthtlpPhbntlknediami.se

Tine

36to48hr.

2to4days

6to7days

8to14days

HbtckckChange*

Capillaries

Softeningwithbeginningmucinolysisof
capillarycementinwithformationof
capillaryaneurysms
Dissolutionofcapillarywall,liberationof
viableendothelialcells

Migrationofalteredcapillaryendothelial
cells(endothelioidcells)toadjacent
damagedarteriolestotakepartinas
cepticgranuloma

Stroma

Hydrationofadjacentgroundsubstance

Freeingoffibroblastsinhydratedmatrix,
separationofreticulinandcollagen
fibrils;earlyproliferationoffibroblasts
Migrationofalteredfibroblasts(histio
cytes)todamagedarteriolestotake
partinaseeptiegranuloma

Endothelioidcellsandstroma)histiocytesformAschofflikeaggregatesaccompanied
byalteredmyocytes(Anitschkow'scells)
FocaldisappearanceofcapillariesIPrecipitationofmatrixasfibrinoidde
generation

reproducingthehistopathologyofallthe
morecommoncollagendiseases,aswellas

inducingpepticulcersinrats.Itsrelationto
naturallyoccurringsubstancesinthehuman
diseasestatesisunknown,butitrepresentsa
valuabletoolforstudyingthehistogenesis
ofthelesions,aswellasthewterrelation

shipsbetweentheadrenalcortexandthe
collagen.diseases.Adrenalcorticalhyper
trophyandatrophyoflymphoidtissues
accompanythesechanges.Aschofflike
bodiesinthemyocardium,rheumatoidnod
ulesinthejoints,and"wireloop"changes
inrenalglomeruliarefound.

72

August1968

MUCINOLYSIBINCOLLAGENDISEASE

111

Theactionofthisirritantamineisap
parentlypartiallydirectandpartially
indirect,sincehypophysectomyinhibits
manyofthecharacteristiclesionsofcollagen
diseaseswhichwerefoundintheintact
unimals.
CardiaclesionssimulatingAschoffbodies
werenotseenconsistentlyexceptinanimals
paintedwitha2percentsolutionofN,N'
dimethylpphenylenediamine(D'P.P).
Someofthemweighed120Gm.andsome80
Gm.;inotherwords,theywereonlyin
GroupIandGroupIV(Table1)thehigh
dosageandtheacuteexperiments,respec
tively.Sclerodermalikelesionsintheskin
wereseenonlywithhighdosesoronthevery
prolongedtreatment(with2percentand
0.5percentsolutions)GroupsIandIII.
TheadrenalchangeswereseeninGroupsII
andIIIonlyiftheanimalslivedfor5or
moreweeks.Thesameappliestothemarked
changesinthespleenandlymphnodes.
Endothelialpluggingofcapillariesinthe
lungandpepticulcersprobablyoccurred
onlyinanimalsthataspiratedorswallowed
thematerialbylickingtheirwounds,and
themucinolyticlesionsinthemucousglands
ofthelarynxwereprobablydependentupon
thesamefactor.Renalandcerebrallesions
occurredonlyintheacuteexperiments,in
80Gm.ratspaintedwitha2percent
solutionofD'P.P.

8UMKABIOINI.NTEBLINGCA
Unsimpleaminairritante,queesunforte
agentereductoriequeapparentementeef
fectualelysedelmatricedehistoconjunc
tive,escapaceareproducerlehistopatho
logiadeomneleplusconununmorbosde
collagenoeainducerulcerespepticinrattos.
Surelationconsubstantiasdeoccurrentia
naturalinstatespathologicinhumanosnon
cscognoscite,sedillorepresentaunim
portanteodjutainlestudiodelhistogenese
dellesioneseetiamdelinterrelationdel
corticeadrenalconlemorbosdecollageno.
Hypertrophiaadrenocorticaleatrophiade
histoslymphoideaccompaniaistealtera
tiones.Corpores"oschoffoide,"nodulos
rheumatoide,ealterationesa"ansadefilo
metallic"inleglomerulosrenalesincontrate.
IIparequeleactiondeisteaminairri

tanteesinpartedirecteeinparteindirecte,
proquehypophysectomiainhibimultesdel
characteristiclesionesdemorbosdecol
lagenolequaleasevaincontrateinanimales
intacte.
Lesionescardiacquesimulacorporade
Aschoffnonessevatrovateuniformemente,
except*inanimalespingiteconunsolution
de2procentodeN,N'dimethylj>phenyl
enediamina(D'P.P).Alicunesdeillospe
sava120Gm.ealicunes80Gm.Inaltere

parolas,illosessevasolmenteinGruppoIe
GruppoIV(Tabula1),i.e.,legrupposaalte
dosageeaexperimentationacute.Lesiones
cutaneesimileasclerodermaessevavidite
solmentepostaltedosesopostuntracta
mentomultoprolongate(consolutionesa2
ea0.5procento),i.e.,inGruppoIeGruppo
III.Lealterationesadrenalessevaviditein
GruppoIIeinGruppoIIIsolmentesile
animalessuperviveva5septimanasoplus.
Lemesmovaleprolemarcatealterationes
inlespleneinlenodoslymphatic.Obstruc
tionendothelialdelcapiUaresinlepulmones
eulcerespepticoccurrevaprobabilemente
solmenteinanimatesqueaspiravaoingereva
lematerialperlamberlorvulneres.Le
lesionesmucinolyticinleglandulasmucose
dellaryngeresultavaprobabilementedel
mesmefactor.Lesionesrenalecerebral
occurrevasolmenteinleexperimentosacute,
inrattosde80Gm.pingiteconunsolution
de2procentodeD'P.P.
REFERENCES
1.Akmfbldt,8.:OxidationofN,Ndiroethylp
phenylenediaminebyserumfrompatients
withmenUldisease.Science,US:117,1957.
2.KLBiirBBM,P.:Theconceptofcollagendis
eases.Am.J.Path..M:505519,1950.
3.Kunob,F.:Der"Rheumatismus,"patho

logiscnanatomiacheundexperimentell
patnologtseheTatsachenundihreauswertung
fordasirstlicheRheumaproblem.Ergebn.
d.allg.Path.u.path.Anat.,IT:1351,1933.
4.McLeod,J.W,,Coatcs,J.C,Hjlvtold,F.C,
Pkibstlt,D.P.andWhbatlbt,B.:Culti
rationofgonocoecusasmethodofdiagnosis
ofgonorrheawithspecialreferencetooxydase
reactionandtovalueofairreinforcedinits
carbondioxidecontent.J.Path,&Bact.,
3:221231,1934.
5.RobsSmith,A.H.T.:TheFunctioningSig
nificanceofConnectiveTissue.Lectureson
theScientificBasisofMedicine.II.Univer
sityorLondon,19521953,TheAthione
Press,1954.

73
THEUSEOFAMINOACIDANTAGONISTS
FORTHEINHIBITIONOFTUMORGROWTH

CHARLESF.GESCHICKTER,M.D.
MURRAYM.COPELAND,M.D.
JEANSCHOLLER,B.S.

|Roprintadfrom
:iTHEBULLETIN,GEORGETOWNUNIVERSITYMEDICALCENTER

.1951,V.No.2.Au9MtSpt*mb*r

:'r*

&;si
IDr.Geschickter.IwasusinganticancerdrugsatGeorgetown,rl
%i/\andwehadpublishedonthisin1951,theCIAhadcometothisreprint|
;>throughothermeansthatIknownotof.
;v?TOneofthecompounds,whichisbenzoether,waslistedintheantim
malarialprogramsundertakenduringthewanOneofthesewasveryj
similartoourproduct,andintheantimalarialreport,threevolumes,.**
tLisparticulargroupofcompoundshadsome,shouldIsay,disturbing
effectsonthenervoussystemofthepatients,thatwassubmittedtoft
thisantimalarialdrugundertheantimalarialprogram,andthisisJ
soreportedinthosethreevolumes.Thisishowtheycametobein

terestedinthisgroupofcompounds.j*
SenatorKennedy.Howmanyyearswereyouinvolvedwiththe1
CIA?J
Dr.Geschzcktbr.Theysay13years.Thenumberofyearsthat
weweregivingmoneytootheruniversitieswasabout9or10;131
yearsisthemajorpart.Ittailedoffsothatanumberoftheyears^
wereaddedtothatsubsequenttohandlingthismoneythatwentto
otheruniversities."|
SenatorKennedy.Yourpersonalinvolvementwasoverwhaty
periodoftime?"^
Dr.Geschickter.Itwasfromlate1953until1972.I
SenatorKennedy.AndwerealltheresourcesthatwerecomingI
throughyourmedicalfoundationatthattimeforcancerresearch?^
Dr.Geschickter.No.AsIpointedout,theGeschickterFundis
notforcancerresearch.TheGeschickterFundreadsGeschickter^
FundforMedicalResearch,anditis,appliedtochronicdiseases..I
SenatorKennedy.Sothefundingofsomeoftheseprogramswas
notsolelyforcancer,isthatcorrect?m
Dr.Geschickter.Correct.;|

SenatorKennedy.Couldanyoftheworkthatyousupported,
havebeendonebyNIHiftheywantedto?
Dr.Geschickter.TheNIHhasabilliondollarbudgetji
SenatorKennedy.Morethanthatnow.$
Dr.Geschickter.Andwhattheydowithitisunpredictable.
Wheny>ugetagrantfromthere,theywantareportwithin3monthsf|
beforeyoucangetthenextone.Soitisnotafeasiblewayofdoing||
thissortofresearch.
SenatorKennedy.Butthepointistheresearchthatyouwere^
doingcouldhavebeendoneorsupportedbytheNationalInstitutesi|
ofHealth,isthatcorrect?.;J
Dr.Geschickter.Certainlytheyhavethefacilitiesandthemoney
tohavedoneit.j
SenatorKennedy.Sononeoftheworkyouweredoingorsupportm
ingonthatkindofthingwassecretorcovertinthatsense?
Or.Geschickter.Allhasbeenpublished.v|
SenatorKennedy.Now,ifwecouldgetintoaspecificproject,the1
MKULTRASubproject23.
AsIunderstandthepurposeofthisproject,itwastosynthesize.,
newdrugsandmodifyoldonestodeterminetheireffectivenessinI

modifyingbehaviorandfunctionofthecentralnervoussystem.This'
includedanimaltestsandtestsonterminallyillcancerpatients.
InanAugust25,1955,memorandumfortherecord,anauthorizaJ
tionwasgivenforthecontractor,ostensiblyyou,topaythehospitala
expensesofcertainpersonssufferingfromincurablecancerforthe

#*

82
privilegeofstudyingtheeffectsofthesechemicalsduringtheir
terminalillness.
Isthatcorect?
Dr.Geschickter.No,sir.Absolutelyincorrect.
SenatorKennedy.Well,areyoufamiliarwiththisdocument
[indicating]?
Dr.Geschickter.Ihaveitinmy,hand.
Iwanttoshowyousomethingpeculiaraboutitifyouwilllookat
it.Youwillseethattheypullout$658.05outofexpendituresthat
weremadein1954.That$658.05wentintotheGeorgetownHospital
pharmacyfordrugsusedbymyassistants:ntheanimalhouse.Now,
watchthepeculiarity.Theycomealongonthe25thdayofAugust
1955,andissueaspecificdirectivefor$658.05.Now,weareusing
hundredsofthousandsofdollarswhichtheyimplyaregoingtopatient
research,andtheonlythingtheycancomeupwithisaseparateand

newvoucherfor$658.05ayearlater,aftertheprojecthasbeencom
pletedandpaidfor.
SenatorKennedy.Whyaretheydoingthis?Arethereother
recordsthataresimplymistaken?
Dr.Geschickter.Absolutely.
SenatorKennedy.Tellusalittlebitaboutthat.
Dr.Geschickter.Ihavearecord,whichwasaveryfoolishrecord,
thewaytheyputitdown
SenatorKennedy.Whoisthey?
Dr.Geschickter.They?
SenatorKennedy.Yes.
Dr.Geschickter.YouaretalkingaboutMKULTRAproject.
Idonotknowwho"they"are.
SenatorKennedy.Allright.
Doyouknowwhothpeopleare?
Dr.Geschickter.Idonotknowallofthem.
SenatorKennedy.Well,Mr.Bortner,doyouknowhim?
Dr.Geschickter.IknewMr.Bortner.ThatwasthemanIsaw
mostfrequently.
SenatorKennedy.AsIunderstandit,hewastheonewhosigned
thesedocuments.

Dr.Geschickter.Hesignedthisone.
SenatorKennedy.CertainlyyouarefamiliarwithMr.Bortner
whosignedthese.Letusgobacktotheotherquestionaboutwhether
youhaveotherrecordswhichareinadequateaswell.
Dr.Geschickter.Ihavearecordof$1,000chargedtopatient
careatGeorgetownundertheMKULTRAproject.Thisisatthe
dateofMarch1957,thereisacopyofacheckonourprivatefunds
for$1,000.
Doyouhavethatrecordthere?
SenatorKennedy.Yes.
Dr.Geschickter.InSeptemberthereis$250chargedtosurgeon's
fee.
SenatorKennedy.Ibelievewehavethoserecordshere.Wehave
alltherecordsbecausethestaffwentoverthosewithyou

83
Ithinkwewanttomakeaparticularcommentonthat.Ithink
wehavethatoneandwealsonaveanotheronedatedOcvober8,
1954thatsaid:
DuetoaconsiderableincreaseinthescopeoftheworkunderDr.Gcschickter
atthedirectionoftheSSCD,whichisCIA,underSubproject23,ProjectMK
ULTRA,the$42,700sumoriginallyobligatedforthisworkisinsufficient.Itis

?thereforeproposed$15,000tothatalreadyobligatedunderthissubproject.
Youarefamiliarwiththat?
Dr.Geschickteb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Isthataccurate?
,Dr.Geschickteb.Thatisaccurate.Wedonotaccountforthat
$1,250onthat.
SenatorKennedy.Didyoudothework?
Didyoudothatworkdescribedinthatproject.
#Dr.Geschickteb.Yes.But,Senator,weweretalkingabout
patientsinthehospital.Iwanttomakethatclear.Now,weare
jumpingtothisgenerallaboratoryworkonanimals.
SenatorKennedy.Ithinkthepointthatweareinterestedin,or
atleastoneofthepointsweareinterestedinisnotsomuchthebook
keepingaspects,althoughwedowanttoexaminethosetotheextent
thattheyareimportant,butthe
Dr.Geschickteb.Theyarecrucial,Senator.
SenatorKennedy.OK.
But,asIunderstand,theyareinaccurate.
Dr.Geschickteb.Notaccurate,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Youtel.usaboutit.
Dr.Geschickteb.Theinaccuracyappliestopatients.

SenatorKennedy.Tellusaboutit.
DrGeschickteb.Well,Iwill.Weareconcernedherewithlabora
torystudiesdoneexclusivelyonanimals.Wearethengoingoverto
$1,250ascribedtohospitalization,ofanadvancedcancerpatient,and
soicitedinyourreport,andthispatientthatwecontributed$1,000
well,itwasacaseofabdominalaneurysm,hewasnotseenbymeasa
patent,IreferredhimtothesurgeonIneveradministeredto
himhewasoperatedon,andiftheywanttosneakthatpatientin
asadvancedcancercase,theyshouldneverputthe$250ontopofit
becauseIcouldrecognizethesurgeonfromit.Hislowfeewasa
courtesytome.
*SenatorKennedy.Itisbasicallyinaccurate?Isitinaccurateor;|
accurate?
rDr.Geschickteb.Itisinaccurate.,
,SenatorKennedy.Now,doyouhaveanyideawhytheydidthat?!l
Dr.Geschickteb.Idonotknowwhattheywerethinkingof.^
SenatorKennedy.Whywouldtheyputthatkindofinformation
in?n
Dr.Geschickteb.Theyweretryingtomakesureintheirowny
recordsthattheyhadsomebreakthroughonclinicalgroundssothey
putinanythingclinicaltheycouldlaytheirhandson.Theyputtheri
moneyonthewrongpatientthattime.j
SenatorKennedy.Evenwithregardtotheparticularcaseyou
havedescribed,itisnotaccurate?

84
Dr.QncmcxTBR.Itisnotaccurateatall.
SenatorKennedy.Now,turntosubproject35.Thisinvolvesthe
intentionoftheAgencytoconstructanewresearchwingatthe
GeorgetownUniversityHospitalusingtheOeschickterFoundation
asacutoutforchannelingCIA.moneyfortheproject.
GeorgetownUniversitywastobeunwittingofCIAinterest,and
CIA'sinterestwastoprovidetheAgencywiththeequivalentofa
hospitalsafehousefordoingresearch.Theplansforthisprojectwere
approvedbytheDirectoroftheCentralIntelligenceAgency.
inthisapprovaldocumentofNovember15,1954,thememosays
thatAgencysponsoredresearchprojectsinsensitivefieldswouldbe
carriedoutrsupposeitisimportanttonotethatitsays"wouldbe
carriedbut"inthenewwingofthehospital.
TheAgency'scontributiontothehospitalwouldbeanonrecurring
grantof$125,000.AndtheAgencywastoencouragetheAtomic
EnergyCommissiontomakeasimilarcontribution.
Thedocumentdescribesthebackgroundoftherelationshipofthe
GeschickterFundformedicalresearchandtheCIA,anditdescribes
thebackgroundofDr.Geschickterandthecontributionstobemade
bytheCIAandbytheGeschickterFund.
TheirplansincludedintegratingatleastthreeChemicalDivision
employeesintothenewhospitalwingtoworkontheAgency'sre
searchprojects.IttalksaboutthreeChemicalDivisionemployees

andhowtheyaregoingtoputthoseemployeesintothenewwing
ofthehospital.Itwasanticipatedthatonesixthofthetotalspacein
thenewresearchwingwouldbeavailabletoDr.Geschickterand,in
turn,wouldbeavailabletotheCIA.Indeed,theCIAreferredtothis
astheequivalentofahospitalsafehouse.
Then,onApril6,1955,itbecameclearthattheAtomicEnergy
Commissionwouldnotparticipateingivingmoney,andsothe
Agencyproposedtodoubleitscontribution.Inthelatterdocument
ofApril6,1955,theCIAstatesthattheywillnolongerhavetowait
untilthenewwingisbuiltinordertotakeadvantageoftheresearch
facility.ThiswasBecauseyou,Dr.Geschickter,weretobeallowedto
useexistingspaceinthepresenthospitalinordertobuildupan
organizationthatwouldlateroccupythenewwing,andtheCIA
claims,andIquote,"Thismeansthatwewillbeabletobeginto
takeadvantageofthiscoversituationwithinamatterofmonths
insteadofwaitingforayearandahalf."
So,didyougiveCIAmoneytoGeorgetownUniversityHospital
forconstructionofanewresearchwing?
Dr.Geschickteb.In1957,Igavesomemoneytothebuilding
fundofGeorgetownUniversityMedicalCenter.Inevergavethem
apennyforanyparticularbuilding.
SenatorKennedy.Soyoudidnothavethemoneyforthat?
Dr.Geschickter.No,sir,Ididnot.
TheGeschickterFundwasgivingitanyhow.Ineverhadthemoney.
SenatorKennedy.Well,youhavethisdocumentinfrontofyou
aboutthememorandumofJanuary10,1956,thattalksaboutSub
project35wasfinallycompletedonDecember9.1957.Totalfunds
madeavailable$515,000.Sotheyspentahalfamilliondollarsthey
saidtheywouldspendtobuildthewing.

Now,didtheGeschickterFundpassthemoney?

85''liI
Dr.Geschickteb,No;weneverpassedthatsumofmoney,\
Senator.>|\
SenatorKennedy.Well;didyoupassanymoney?:iM
Dr.Gesceicktir.$375,000,not$515,000.
SenatorKennedy.SowhatwastheAgency'scontribution?fl)
Dr.GEScmcKTi^ItcouldbeanythingbecauseIdonotknowwhatJ)
theirrecordsshowed.
SenatorKennedy.ButthroughtheGescbickterFund,wasitthe.?*I
$375,000;}i
Dr.Geschickteb.$375,000givenin1957.;
SenatorKennedy.AndcanyoutelluswhetherthatwastheCIA
fundsorhowmuchofthatwasCIAfunds?1:
Dr.Geschicktbb.ThatwasCIAmoney,asitturnedoutlater.J,i
Atthetimein1955wedidnotknowwhethertheAECwasinvolved
ornot,orwhethersomeotherfoundationwasthere.m\
SenatorKennedy.ButthatwasCIAmoney?y

Dr.Geschickteb.Itturnedouttobe$375,000CIAmoney.
SenatorKennedy.Whywouldtheyinvestthismoney?Doyou.;,
haveanyideawhytheywantedtoinvestit?'!
Dr.Geschickteb.IhavenottheslightestideabecauseInever'*
sawanyofthatmemoorthatsocalledProject35untilaboutSatur
day.ItwasthefirsttimeIhadeverlaideyesonit.Thatisabout80::|
hoursago.if
SenatorKennedy.Didyouevergetinreturnonesixthofthe
hospitalwing?n
Dr.Geschickteb.Notatall.i|
SeuatorKennedy.Didyouconductresearch
Dr.Geschicktbb.Notabitinthisbuilding.Iwasstillinthe
animalhouseintheDepartmentofPathologywhereIhadbeen1
since1946.i*
SenatorKennedy.Soyounevergotanyatleastyonneverdid
anyresearch,andnoneoftheresearchthatwasdoneunderyour]
guise,andyouhavenoideaastowhatthefollowupwas?J
Dr.Geschickteb.Ihavenoideawhattheirplanwasforgiving
themoney..=?
SenatorKennedy.Andeventhoughthedocumentsallrelateto||
youandindicatewhatyouaregoingtodointermsoftheresearch

Dr.Geschickteb.Asin"TheManFromLaMancha,"asfaras
Tamconcerned,Iknownotofwhattheywerethinking.|
SenatorKennedy.Theyarenotaccuratetheneitherintheirporit
trayalofwhattheysaidyouweregoingtodo?
Dr.Geschickteb.Senator,ifyougotothatbuilding,thetopfloorm
thattheysaytheywouldoccupyis50percentmechanicalequipment||
forairconditioners.
SenatorKennedy.Youdidnotknowwhattheagencygotoutfrom
allthatmoneythattheyputin?Youhavenoidea?
Dr.Geschickteb.Noidea.
SenatorKennedy.Didyouperformanyotherresearchfortesting
drugs,gadgets,oranyresearchatallonhumansubjects?
Dr.Geschickteb.Areyoureferringtoresearchinthatparticular
building?
SenatorKennedy.No.Anyother.

86
Dr.Geschickteb.Ididmyusualresearcheveryyear,discovering
thecauseofcancer,anewtreatmentforcancer,anewtreatmentfor
asthma,anewtreatmentforhypertension,andnewinsightsinfo
arthritis.
SenatorKennedy.DidtheCIAsponsorthatresearch?

Dr.Geschickteb.Theysponsoreditalongwiththeothercon
tributors.
SenatorKennedy.Whyweretheyinterestedinallofthese?
Dr.Geschickteb.Theyhadmoneybuttheydidnothaveideas.
SenatorKennedy.Whatdidtheyspeaktoyouaboutintermsof
cancer?Whatweretheotherdiseases,arthritis?
Dr.Geschickteb.Highbloodpressure,arthritis,asthma,and
cancer.
SenatorKennedy.Couldyouseeanyconnectionbetweenthatand
thenationalsecuritycovertintelligence?
Dr.Geschickteb.AllIcansayisanyunderstandingoftheway
thebodyworksandhowchemicalsworkorpharmaceuticalsordrugs
workisimportantforanyagencyintheGovernmenttoknow.
Ihaveareprintherethatwillbemadeavailable.
SenatorKennedy.Whatdoyouhave?
Dr.Geschickteb.Ihaveareprinthereonthehypersensitivity
phenomenonproducedbystressbyCharlesGeschickterandEdward
n'Malley,publishedandsubmittedforpublicationin1959.
SenatorKennedy.IsthisSubproject45?
Dr.Geschickteb.Thisis45.
SenatorKennedy.IfIcouldmakeabriefcommentaboutthat.
AccordingtotheCIA,duringtheperiodof1955to1963,youwere
tryingtoidentifyandevaluatesubstanceswhichmighthaveappli

cationsinthefieldofthepsychochemicalandknockoutdrops.This
wasalsosupposedtoinvolve,first,thetestingofdrugsonadvanced
cancerpatients,andthenonappropriatepatients.
Thisistheprojectthatinvolvedintoastudyofstress.TheCIA
wassupposedtohavecontributedapproximately$600,000overthat
periodoftimeinsupportofthisproject.Apparently,inorderto
covertheCIA'spurposeofbeinginvolvedinthisproject,onJanuary
rA30,1956,aCIAmemosays
'y:Dr.Geschickteb.Theprojectofstressthattheyreferredtowas
'doneentirelyonratsandsoreported.
SenatorKennedy.Now,inthememoitsays:
InordertocontinuetheestablishedcoveractivitiesintheFundandtomake
availableapoolofsubjectsfortestingpurposes,thecardiovascularandanti
carcinogeniceffectsofcompoundsresultingfromtheaboveprogramwillbe
evaluated.
Now,itwouldseemtomeinthehealthareathatwhatyouare
basicallytalkingaboutinthissituationiswhereyouarecompletely
mixingwhatwouldbelegitimatekindsofresearch'thatis,testing
cardiovascularandanticarcinogeniceffectsofcompoundsinorder
tocovertherealpurposes.
Dr.Geschickteb.Iwasnotcoveringanything.
SenatorKennedy.No,no.ThisiswhatIamquotinginthe
memorandumIamnotsayingthatyouwere.Iamquotingthe
CIAmemothatindicatesthatthatiswhattheirunderstandingof
thenaturewas.

Whatdoyousayaboutthat?Isthatanaccuratedescription?

87
Dr.Geschickter.No.Theywerelookingonanybody'sworkin
mylaboratoryoranyotherof86universitiesforanythingtheycould
findinthatfield.ButIdidnotknowwhattheywere4ookingtor.
SenatorKennedy.Whatfieldisthisnow?
Inwhatfieldisthis?Youaretalkingaboutstressnow?
Dr.Geschickteb.Stress.Wearetauringaboutstress.
SenatorKennedy.Thatissubproject45,isthatcorrect?
Dr.Geschickter.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Therewereaseriesofannualrenewalsofthis
project?
iDr.Geschickter.Correct.
SenatorKennedy.Ineachoneofthemthereweresummariesof
whatwasaccomplishedandwhatwashopedtobeaccomplished.
OntheJanuary17,1957,draft,theytalkaboutsynthesizingand
4theclinicalevaluationofcompoundsknowntohaveapplicationinthe
psychochemicalandKfields.Inaddition,naturaltoxicpsychoses
weretobestudied.Theseincludedcompoundsloweringbloodglucose,
compoundstobeadministeredbyallroutes.|

Doyourememberthisresearch?J
Dr.Geschickter.Ihavealistofthecompoundsandthatresearch
appliestothiogycolicacidsubmittedtotheNCI,andIwillgiveyou>
theirnumberforit.Iremembertheresearchverywell,Senator.I
Cancercodenumberis59279,itisananticancercompoundandnot^
apsychoticknockoutdrug.
SenatorKennedy.Now,inJanuary1959,inthenextrenewalof']
thisproject,thefollowinggoalsareenumeratedbytheCIA.AnditJ
talksaboutdevelopmentofmaterialsandtechniquesfortheproduction
ofmaximumlevelsofphysicalandemotionalstressinhumanbeings.I
Andthenitcontinues,developmentofmaterialandtechniqueswhichJ
Ereduceamaximumattenuationofstressinhumanbeingsonceit*
asbeenproduced.Itcontinuesalong.Itindicatesyouaregoingto
doit.I
Dr.Geschickter.ThisreferstocontinuationofratstudiesofJ
stressandtheseotherchemicalsthatproducestressandphenomena
inrats,andtheyhavebeenpublished.Hj
SenatorKennedy.Wereanyofthesetestsdoneonhumansubjects?H
Dr.Geschickter.No,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Well,itindicatesthatthatiswhattheymader,

thegrantinorder|
Dr.Geschickter.CanIcorrectyouonthat,Senator?iJ
IThecancercompoundsweregiventopatientsunderthatNCI
#number,andtheyhaveJbeenreportedtotheTumorBoardatGeorge;I
town.Theyarelookingforitseffectsonbloodsugarandonstress,m
butthecompoundsthatweusedweremodifiedtocurecancer,and
theyweresomodifiedthattheywouldshowupasanticancerdrugat
theNCI,andthatiswhattheydid.
Butwewerenotgivingourpatientsstressdrugs.
SenatorKennedy.Allright.
Now^inthecontinuationofthisproject,thefundingforthispar
ticularproject,onthe29thofDecember,1959,thememowillob
viouslyDepartoftherecord,butletmereadyoutherelevantpart:
"Asinindicatedintheattachedproposal,whichistheproposalfor:J
thenextyear,workofthepastyearhasprogressedtothepointwherey
moredefinitiveexperimentsonstressreactioncanbecarriedout.

Primarilythisisbroughtaboutbythecharacterizationofseveral
newmaterialswhichproducereactionsinhumansandtheapplication
ofsomenewclinicalmethodsofmeasuringtheextentofdisturbance
produced."
Now,asIunderstand,thisistheinternaldocumentthatwould
justifytheexpendituresforthenextyear.Butyousaythatthatisnot
g.accurate,thatthataspectisnotaccurate?

Dr.Geschickter.Thosematerials,Senator,havetobecortisone
andadrenalin,andwehaddiscoveredthattneyworkuniquelyin
combination.Now,thosematerials,Senator,arestandardcortisone
isstandardtreatmentforlymphosarcomaandforHodgkin'sdisease,
andourstudiesinthatfieldwoulddefinethesideeffectsincancer
patientswhoweregettingcortisoneasapprovedtreatment,and
adrenalinattimes.
SenatorKennedy.Well,thatisnotterriblydramaticthen,isit?
Itisimportantbutnotdramatic.
Whydoyouthinktheagencyisattemptingtovdramatizethis?
Dr.Geschickter.Icouldnotanswerthat,excepttheywere
tremendouslydoggedinmaintainingconnectionswithGeorgetown
and,remember,aUthroughthisperiodweweredistributinghundreds
ofthousandsofdollarstootheruniversities,andtheydidnotwantto
losethateither.
SenatorKknnkdt.Whyisthisallsortofkeptintheblackbox,so
tospeak?Ifthisislegitimate,valuable,useful,andworthwhile,why
isitallcouchedin
Dr.Geschickter.Senators,theamazingthingtomeiswhatisin
thatblackbox.Someofwhatwasinthatblackboxwasavailableon
openmarket,andtheyweretryingtosynthesizeitsecretly.
SenatorKennedy.Theypaid$600,000forthistypeofresearch.
Why,ifitisavailableintheopenmarketwhyaretheychannelingit
throughtheagency?
Dr.Geschickter.Ihavenottheslightestidea.Icanjustquote
youa$32,000granttoanotherinstitutiontosynthesizeadrugthat
wasinFrenchpharmacopea,andIboughtitfor$220apound.

SenatorKennedy.HowmuchwenttotheGeschickterFundover
theseyearstotally,approximately?
Dr.Geschickter.Project45Icantellyouexactly,$535,000.
SenatorKennedy.Forallprojects?
Dr.Geschickter.Forallprojectsthatwenttousforresearch,
theexpense,thetotalamountwas$655,500.Totalbuildingprogram
*expensewas$375,000,andthatbtotalamount.
SenatorKennedy.Forthe13years,whatwouldbethetotalofit
approximately?
Dr.Geschickter.Thatisapproximatelythetotalforthoseyears.
SenatorKennedy.Alltheyears,allprojects.
Dr.Geschickter.Allprojects?
SenatorKennedy.Ifyoutotaledalltheprojectsthatwerefunded
throughtheGeschickterFoundationfortheuniversitiesinthose13
years,whatisthetotal?
Dr.Geschickter.Thisfigureisthe$1millionthatwentto
Georgetown,alittleoverthat.
__SenatorKennedy.Totalamount,alittleover$1millionisall?
7Dr:Geschickter.Yes,$1,030,000
SenatorKennedy.IsthatnotjustGeorgetown?

80si
Dr.Geschickter.ThatwasspentatGeorgetown.?T
SenatorKennedy.Iwantthetotalamountforthe13years,allJ
CIAmoneyforanypurposethatwentthroughthefoundation.
Dr.Ge8chicktbr.Thatwentthroughthefoundation?'ft
SenatorKennedy.Yes,approximately.|
Dr.Geschickter.Iwillgiveittoyouexactly.
SenatorKennedy.Giveittousexactly.
Dr.Geschickter.$2,088,600,tootherinstitutions.
SenatorSchweiker,Doesthatfigurerepresentoperatingorcapital
orconstructionfunds?
Dr.Geschickter.Thesearealloperationalfundsdistributedto*i
theuniversitiesandallotherprojectsIhavelistedbytheGeschickterJ
FundindependentlyoftheGeorgetownUniversityMedicalCenter.
SenatorKennedy.Whatwouldyousaytheygotf:omtiiat?^
Dr.Geschickter.Whatdidtheygetfromit?I
SenatorKennedy.Yes.d
Dr.Geschickter.Iwouldliketoreadyouwhattheygotfromit.
Iwouldliketoclearthisup.1

Inthefirstplace,theydidsoilresearch,andtheyspent$300,000J
forsoilresearchatthreeuniversities.Thatsoilresearchaasbeenused
andisstillbeingtriedouttoconvertshaletooilbybacterialaction.rj
Theyfound57substanceswouldincreasethegrowthofthosebacterias1
toattackshale.Thatisonethingthatmight
SenatorKennedy.DoesitseempeculiartoyouthattheCentral
IntelligenceAgencyisfundingthatkindofresearch,whetherthese1
thingsarevaluableorusefulornot:U
Dr.Geschickter.Senator,thisiswhatcameoutoftheblackbox.
SenatorKennedy.Now,justinageneralkindofcomment,wouldfj
yousaythattheremayhavebeensomeusefulandimportantresearch?J
Dr.Geschickter.Moregoodthanevil.
SenatorKennedy.AsIunderstandit,therewasnothingorat,,
leastfromwhatyouindicatedhere,therewasnothingthatwasdoneJ
orchanneledthroughyourfoundationthatcouldnothavebeensup*
portedbyotherinstrumentsofgovernment,amIcorrect?
Dr.Geschickter.Moneywhereveryouputit,andthatiswhatj|
theyweredoing,spendingtheirmoney,iswellspentonresearch.II
SenatorSchweiker.Westruckoilintheblackbox,isthatwhatyou

aretryingtotellus??a
DrGeschickter.Westruckoil.Thatisonethingthatcameouti
ofIt.
SenatorKennedy.Yet,evenintheexplanations,andeveninthe
interna]documentsthatdescribethework,insomeinstances,asit:|
relatedtopersonalrecords,thosewereinaccurate,amIcorrectin^
that?
Dr.Geschickter.Theywereinaccurate.;|
SenatorKennedy.Doyouhaveanyunderstandingofwhytheyi}
wouldbesoinaccurate?
Dr.Geschickter.No,exceptthatIknowtheamountsweren
inaccurate...'..j
SenatorKennedy.Diditoccurtoyoutheymightbeusingfunds
thathadbeendescribedinthoseexpendituresforperhapsother,
purposes?;|
Dr.Geschickter.Idonotknow.^

90
SenatorKennedy.Youdonotknow.

Second,intermsofthecharacterizationofthework,youare
awareofreallythedramatizationofanumberoftheresearchpro
jectsthatyouwereinvolvedin.Youhavenoinsightorunderstand
ingofwhytheymighthavebeeneitheroverdramatizedorover
stated?
^Dr.Geschickter.Idonotknowwhytheywereoverd^amatized.
vMr.Cacherib.Iwillspeakfortherecord.
Dr.Geschickterfirstlearnedofthesedocumentsthroughthe
courtesyofyourstaffFridayafternoonandSaturdaymorning.It*
wasthefirsttimehehadseenthem,thecharacterizationsofthem.
SenatorKennedy.Hehasbeenverycooperative.Allofyouhave
inhelpingthecommittee.Itisnoteasytofollowallthelines,where
theynavebeenleading.Butyouhavebeenveryhelpfultous.
Now,therecordsofMKACTIONindicatethatalthoughtheuse
oftheGeschickterFoundationforMedicalResearchwouldnolonger
beusedasconduit,youwerestilltobeusedasconduittohandle
?rantstootherresearchersthroughseparatecommercialaccounts,
talsosaysthatinthepastyouhavebeenusedasagranteeforspecific
researchactivityandasachannelforfundingothermedicalre
searchers,andastheproviderofcoverforonestaffmemberofthe
CIA.
Isallofthataccurate?
Dr.Geschickter.Thatisaccurate.
SenatorKennedy.Whowasthestaffmember?Youdonothave
togiveusthename,butwheredidhework?Canyoutellus?
.Dr.Geschickter.Idonotknowwherethesepeopleworkatthe
presenttime.Thiswaslongago.Wheretheyworkedthen?

SenatorKennedy.Yes.
Dr.Geschickter.Iwouldliketohearthequestion.Idonot
knowwhatpeopleyouarereferringto.
SenatorKennedy.WastheNIHinvolvedinanyoftheresearch
projects?
Dr.Geschickter.TherewasNIJIinvolvement.
SenatorKennedy.Couldyoutellusthenatureofthatinvolve
ment?
Dr.Geschickter.Icantellyouthenatureofitaccurately.One
wasonstudiesonconcussionmwhichtheyrockedtheheadsof
animalsbackandforthtotrytocausethemamnesiabyconcussion
ofthebrain.Andthatwasfor$110,000.
*Theother,whichwarfundedthroughthislaterbusinesswasthe
useofradartoputmonkeystosleep,toseeiftheycouldbe,should
Isay,insteadofMickeyFinn,theycouldputthemunderwithradar
directedtowardthemonkeybrain.
SenatorSchweiker.Couldthey?
Dr.Geschickter.Didtheygotosleep?
SenatorSchweiker.Yes.
Dr.Geschickter.Yes,sir.But,Senator,itshowedifyougotinto
toodeepasleep,youinjuredtheheatcenterofthebrainthewayyou
cookmeat,andtherewasaborderlinetherethatmadeitdangerous.
SenatorKennedy.Now,thereisadiscussionalsointhememoranda
astohowtohidecontributionssothatnoadditionaltaxeswouldbe
paidbyyou.Thereisnoindicationofanywrongdoingobviouslyon

yourpart.Ithinkallofusunderstandthatintermsoftheprotection

91
ofvariouskindsofagentsthattheremayhavetobesomeprocedures
whichareestablishedtoprotecttheircover.
But,inthismemorandum,itmentionedexaminationsofDr.
Geschickter'ssayingifthiswerethecase,thenatureofthistrans
actionwouldarousesuspicionundercursoryIRSexamination.Then
itcontinues,talkingabouttheFoundation:
|Suchaninvestigationcouldundoubtedlybehandledbyintercessionwiththe
IRS.Theneedforsuchintercessionshould,however,beavoided.
Itwouldcertainlyindicatethatitappearsthattheabilitytointer
cedewithregardtotheIRSwascertainlyaworkingtoolofthe
agencyitself.
CanyoutellusaboutwhatMKACTION,whatwasMK
ACTION?
Dr.Geschickter.IfirstheardaboutitonSaturday.Butthe
4answeristheywerelookingforanewwaytohidethings,andthat
isallIcantenyouaboutit.
SenatorKennedy.Wereyouinvolvedinanyresearchunderthat
project?
Dr.Geschickter.Iwasinvolvedinresearch,nomatterhowit
came,itwenttotheGeschickterFundandtothesamelaboratories.

SenatorKennedy.Wasthatresearchcovert?
Dr.Geschicktsr.No,sir,itmightbe,itmightnot.Itdepends
onhowyoulookatit.
Atthesametime,itwascovert.
SenatorKennedy.Well,doyouwantto,justbriefly,tellusabout
that?
Dr.Geschickter.AmongotherthingsItestedalltherocketfuels
thatwereinuse*fortoxicity,andtheywereallofacertaintypeof
halogenderivativesrelatedtochlorinewedrinkinwateranathe
fluoridesthatweuseintoothpastetostrengthenteeth.Ifoundout
thatthesefluoridesandthesechlorinesanatheserocketfuelswere
allexcretedthroughthelungsandweredamagingtothelungs,soit
ispossiblethatoneoftheagentsofcancerofthelungisnotjust
tobacco,itmaybethechlorinationofourwater.
SenatorSchweiker.Doesthatcomefromtheformationofchloro
formafterchlorineisputintothewaterandingested?
Dr.Geschickter.Itismetabolizedandallofthesehalogensare
#excretedthroughthelungs,thisiswhatIproved,whether
SenatorSchweiker.AreyousayingyoudonotagreewithEPA's
,findingthattheamountsofchlorineinwatertodayaresafe?Youare
sayingtheyarenotsafe?
*Jpr.Geschickter.Wedonotknowoveralongperiodoftime.
Thisisaterriblethingaboutcancer,Senator.Itislikeanational
policy.Youthinkitisgoodtodaxrand,20yearslater,youmightbe
wrong.W

SenatorKennedy.Justfinally,theAgencyfunneledmoneyto
manyuniversitiesthroughtheGeschickterFund,diditnot?
Dr.Geschickter.Yes,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Doyouhavethelistofallofthoseuniversities?
Dr.Geschickter.Allofthem.
SenatorKennedy.Ingenera],didtheuniversitiesknowthatthe
moneywascomingfromtheCIA?

'':)

92
Dr.Geschickteb.SomeofthemhadpreviouslygottenCIA
money,andtheyjustswitchedthismethodofgivingittothem.In
general,theydidnotknow.
SenatorKennedy.Didordidnotknow?

Dr.Geschickteb.Ingeneral,didnotknow.Someoftheuniversi
tiesundoubtedlyknewit,inmyopinion.
SenatorKennedy!Asaresearcher,whatisyourownreactionto
thecovertfundingofuniversityresearchintermsoftheuniversities?
Dr.Geschickteb.Idonotbelieveinit.
SenatorKennedy.Pardon?
Dr.Geschickteb.Idonotbelieveincovertfunding.Ithinkthat
thecountryhasgotenoughbrainsandmoneytouseitintelligently,
Ihopewhentheygiveittoresearch.Butithasbeenaraggedrecord.
Senator,Ihadacomment.Ifpublicuseofmoneyforresearchwas
sowonderfulintheiradministration,theGeschickterFundwould
notbeinexistencetoday.
SenatorKennedy.Butthepointaboutitisthatwhilethereis,
obviously,alotofresearchthatisbeingdone,andobviouslyitisa
veryimportantpartofourwholehealtheffort,wealreadyhaveaway
andmeansoftryingtodothat,whichistheNationalInstitutesof
Healthforthemostpart,aswellasprivategroups.
Whatwehaveseenhere,justinyourownexample,isthatforabout
20yearstheCIAchanneledmorethan$2millionthroughtheFounda
tiononworkwhich,byyourownadmission,couldhavebeendone
throughopenresearch.Wefoundthatwithinthatkindofcontext,
therearerecordswhichareinaccurate,whichmisrepresentthesitua
tion,whichdistortthesituation.Wehaveallofthatparticularpackage
laidoutbeforeus.
Withinthatyouhavethecompromisingoftheuniversities.We
havefailurefortheprotectionofindividualswhoarebeingtested
andwehavefailureofafollowupintermsofadequatekindsofhealth
protectionsforthosepeoplewhohavebeensubjecttoagooddeal
ofthetesting.Youhaveaswelltheperversionofmanyofthedifferent
agenciesofGovernmentandinaveryunnecessaryway.Youcan

saytheremayhavebeensomebenefitswhichspinofffromallofthat
moneythathasbeenchanneledorfunneledthrough,butwecertainly
havenoevidenceofanyofthatintermsoftheAgency.Maybeit
hasbeenwrittenaboutbyyouorbyothers,butwecertainlydonot
haveaccountability.
Ithinkthisispartofthetroublesomeaspectsofthis.
Dick,doyouhaveanything?
SenatorSchweiker.Dr.Geschickter,youhavedescribedprojects
suchastheoilshaleandbacteriaproject,theuseofradarwaves
onanimals,andthestudyofanimalbrainsandconcussions.Isthat
alloraretheresomeotherprojects,too,thatyouarefamiliarwith?
Dr.Geschickteb.Iamgoingtogiveyouaveryimportantone
thatIwouldliketopublish,andIcouldnotatthetime.Wehad
troublewiththeVietnameseswitchingfromoursidetotheother
sideatnight,andtheArmyhadtohaveawayoflabelingswitch
coatsorturncoats,sowehelpedthemtodevelopasuspensionof
materialrelatedtophenophthalms,whenwewouldgivethemtheir
healthshotsoranticholeratvaccine,theycouldinjectthisfluorescent
material.Itisinvisibleexceptunderultravioletlight.Ihaveitin

it'

93
myarm.Somemalesofhisstaffhaveitintheirarms,mynurse|

andothers.*
Now,thismaterialstaysvisibleyearafteryear.
Now,hereistheimportantspinoffofthat.Wehavealotofpatientsfl
withbadhearts,andwedonotknowwhethertooperateonthemorJ
not.Ifitisadegenerativething,thevwillnotstandtheoperation,
whichisalong4houroperation.Butifitiscongenitalheartvalveam
murmurhasbeenpickedupinchildhoodwecanoperate.Ifthey(|
haveontheirbackcarriedtheirownrecordingorcomputerized^
symbolofwhattheircongenitaldeformitieswere,thenthedoctor'
canputalightonthepatient'sbackandgetthehistoryofallimportant
thingsjustbyreadingafewtatooedmarks.ThatiswhatIwantto
publish.
SenatorKennedy.Youhavebeendescribinggoodprojects.
Whataboutsomeofthebadprojects?
Dr.Geschickter.IcangiveyouonethatIcannotunderstand.
Ithinkitwillamuseeverybody.
Theyspent$247,000onmushrooms.Twentythousandwenttoan
agentwhosewell,Ihadto.decipherthis,goingbackandforthto
Philadelphia,andIpickedupthePhiladelphiaticketstampswell,
itwasnotpunchedoutonhistrainrecord,andhehadAtlanticCity
ontheothersideofoneofthem,andtheywerespending$107,667
buyingmushroomsfromAfrica.Andthesethingswerethenshipped
down
SenatorSchweiker.WegrowmushroomsinPennsylvania.Why

didwehavetobringtheminfromAfrica?
Dr.Geschickter.Thesearepoisonmushrooms.Letmetellyou
somethingaboutit.
Thenameisinthereportbut,byGod,itisnotinanydictionary.
ItisanAfricannameofanAfricanmushroom.
Now,theyalsospent$120,000analyzingthesemushroomsata
universitylaboratory,reputableStateuniversity,soheretheyare
smugglinginmushroomsbackandforth.Ihaveathousandpagesof
memos,mostlybustickets,purchasingordersfornaturaldrugs,but
theyallturnedouttobemushrooms,andthetotalofthat,Senator,is
$247,000,soyouwillnoteatapoisonmushroom.
SenatorSchweiker.Whatdidtheydowiththepoisonmushrooms
oncetheyhadthem?
Dr.Geschickter.TheysentdowntoIwillnotnametheuni
versitytoanalyzethemfortoxicsubstances,buttheyapparently
wouldpoisonsomebody.Idonotknowwhattheydidwiththem.I
havenotgottenthefollowuponthatone.
SenatorSchweiker.Anyotherslikethat?
Dr.Geschickter.Andtheotherones,Itoldyouabout,theywere
veryinterestedinhashishcannabionol,andthatoriginalsynthesis
bythewaywasdonebyRogerAdamsattheUniversityofIllinoisin
1932.Iworkedwithhim.SotheywentbacktoIllinoistodoalotof
thiswork.Theyspentsomemoneyatanotheruniversity,$36,500,to
purifytheallergensinragweedthatmakeyousneezeorgiveyouhay
fever.
Well,thismaybeveryimportant,becausewiththatasatest,they
discoveredanewantibodyinthebodycalledGammaE,thatison
surfacecellsonly.Itdoesnotcirculateinthebloodasarule.Thisled

ns_s?.n77

94
todiscoverythatthemastcellliberatesthechemicalsthatgive3rou
thehayfeverandasthma.Thatwasnotacompletewaste.
Imentionedthebacterialwork,theconcussionexperimentsfor
amnesia,andtheydid$177,000worthofworktryingtocurechronic
alcoholismwithvariousadditives.Idonotknowhowsuccessfulthat
is.
SenatorSchweiker.IwasgoingtosayIhopeyouaregoingto
**"publishapaperonthat.
Istheresomethingyoucantellusaboutacureforchronicalco
holism?
Dr.Geschickter.Iwillletyouknow.
SenatorSchweiker.Dr.Geschickter,insuhproject35*onesixth
ofthespaceoftheuniversityhospitalwingwhichtheCIAcontrib
utedto,supposedlythroughyourfund,wasgoingtobsavailablefor
theagency'sresearch.
Whooccupiedthatspace?

Dr.Geschickter.Allofthespacethatisreferredtointhatpar
ticularmemo,whichIjustsawlastSaturday,wasusedbyordinary
hospitallaboratoriesandoutpatientclinicfordentistry,outpatient
clinicforordinaryhospitalpsychiatry,andtheyuseditforababy
cliniconthefirstfloor.
OnthetopflooristheonlyplaceIwasinterestedin.Theyhad
$375,000worthofisotopelabs,andradioisotopicequipment,while
nowthattypeofequipmentthatisthereamountstoover$2million.
Iboughtthefirstequipmentmyselffor$7,500.ThisiswhyAEGwas
interested.ThatiswhyIstartedthismoneyraisingeffortthrough
AdmiralStrauss,afriendofmine.
SenatorSchweiker.AccordingtotheCIAdocuments,partofthis
agreementsaystherewillbeavailabletheequivalentofhospital
safehouse.
Dr.Geschickter.Senator,Idonotneedtotellyouifyougoto
amarriageceremony,therehastobeatleasttwopartiesatthealtar.
Herethereisonlyonepartybehindcloseddoorsmakingtheagree
ment.Iknewnothingofthis.NeitherdidGeorgetown.
SenatorSchweiker.Areyousayingthatnoagreementexistedor
thatyouwerenotawareofany?
Dr.Geschickter.TherewasnoatrreementthatIknowofand
nonethatyoucanmakewithonlyoneparty,keepingitinablackbox.
SenatorSchweiker.Therewa<*nosafehouse,oryoudidnotknow
ofanysafehouse?
jDr.Geschickter.Wehaveneverfoundit.
SenatorSchweiker.I,trefersii;heretoawrittenmemorandum.
iLetmegetmynotesonit.
Wereyouawareof,ordidyousign,amemorandumwithanyone

iwhorepresentedorwhomighthavebeenfromtheCIA,amerao
jrandumofunderstandingwhichmighthavespecifiedthereasonsfor
theCIA'sdonationandwhattheAgencyhopedtogetinreturnfor
itsmoney?
iDr.Geschickter.Neversignedanything.Ineverheardofthis
1untilSaturday.Ihaveheardofcommentsinthepress,butwhathas
goneoninthatmemorandumwouldscareanybody.
jSenatorSchweiker.Werethereanyhospitalstaffassistantsor
apeopleinthisbuIdingwhoweredoingworkthatmighthavebeen
construedtobeconnectedwiththeCIA?

95

Dr.Geschickter.None.
SenatorSchweiker.Andyouhave

Dr.Geschickter.NotthatIknowof.Itturnedouttherewas
noneatthattime.

SenatorSchweiker.Thebuildingwearetalkingaboutinsub'
project35wastohaveshelteredsomeprettygruesomeexperiments
thattheCIAwasinterestedin.Theywereworriedaboutresponsi
bilityforthiswork.InaCIAdocumentdescribingsubproject35,
itsays:
Theproposedfacilityoffersauniqueopportunityforthesecurehandlingof
suchclinicaltestinginadditiontothemanyadvantagesoutlinedintheproject
proposal.Thesecurityproblemsmentionedaboveareeliminatedbythefactthat
responsibilityfortestingwillrestcompletelyuponthephysicianandthehospital.
Whataretheytalkingaboutthere?
Dr.Geschickter.Idonotknowbecauseyoucannotdothatina.
universityhospital.
SenatorSchweiker.Yousignednomemorandumofagreementon
thisproject?
Dr.Geschickter.Absolutelynot,orIwouldnotbeheretoday.I
wouldberunningoutofthecountry.
SenatorSchweiker.Doyouknowofanybodyonyourstaffwho
didsignsuchamemorandum?
Dr.Geschickter.No,noonewouldhavetheauthorityto.
SenatorSchweiker.Iamalittlebitconfused,Dr.Geschickter,
aboutwhattheGovernmentgotoutofthis.Inotherwords,forall
thisinvestment,andinlightofallthecoverandfacilitiesforallthe
sensitiveexperimentsthattheyexpectedtogainandreferredtohere
inthesedocuments,itdoesnotseemliketheCIAgotitsmoney's
worth.
Dr.Geschickter.Idonotknowwhattheyhadinmind.

SenatorSchweiker.Well,theycertainlywouldrelyuponyou.
Ihavetobelievethatyouwereoneofthepeopletheyreliedupon.
Toworkthroughyouastheconduitforthismuchmoney,they
certainlymusthavereliedonyouinsomewaytoproduce
Dr.Geschickter.Senator,Iwasover55whenmostofthiswas
dreamedup,andittakes4or5yearstobuildabuilding,andIcould
dropdeadinthemeantime.Idonotseehowyoucanmakeapromise
ononesideandexpectmetoliveforever.
SenatorSchweiker.Howwasthebuildingfinancedagain?Where
didthe$3milliontotalcomefrom?
Dr.Geschickter.Allofthatisinaccurate,becausewhatactually
happenedisdifferent.Georgetownbuiltthreethingsatonce.Theybuilt
theKoberKobianbuilding,theybuiltanursesschool,andthey
builttheGormanbuilding,nooneofwhichcomesuptoanything
likethementionedamount.
SenatorSchweikur.HowwastheGormanbuildingfinanced?Just
giveabriefbreakdown.
Dr.Geschickter.Ihavenottheslightestideaonthat.
SenatorSchweiker.WhatwastheGeschickterFundroleinthat
buildingthen?
Dr.Geschickter.None.Iwasnotgivenasquareinch.
SenatorSchweiker.Whatwasyourrelationshipwiththebuilding
forthehospital?

ti

i96

Dr.Geschickter.Myrelationshipwastohelpwiththebuilding
fund.,Itspecifiednobuildingwhatsoever.Igavethemmoneywithno
stringsattached.
SenatorSchweiker.Howmuchwasthatagain?
Dr.Geschickter.$375,000.
SenatorSchweiker.Wheredidthe$500,000comefrom?|
*Dr.Geschickter.Ihavenottheslightestidea.
**SenatorSchweiker.Didyoucombinethe$375,000withsomeI
bodyelse'smoneytoequal$500,000?
Dr.Geschickter.Never.Idonotknowwherethosefigurescame
from.
SenatorSchweiker.AndhowmuchdidtheGormanBuildingij
cost?.I
Dr.Geschickter*Ihavenottheslightestidea.Itdependson|
whothecontractorwasandwhetherheputinextras.I
SenatorSchweiker.Well,yourrolewas,Ithought,connected

withthebuildingfund?I
Dr.Geschickter.MyrolewassimplytobuildupGeorgetowntof
"whereitcouldholditsheadupinanymedicalschoolinthecountry,
andthatisjustwhathappened.
SenatorKennedy.Finally,Dr.Geschickter,usingtheexampleof
theAgency'sdescriptionaboutGeorgetownUniversity,ittalks
abouttheobjectivesandthedetails.Thisisinjustifyingthecommit
mentoftheAgency.f
Dr.Geschickter.Isthis35?i
SenatorKennedy.Thisison35.|
Ittalksaboutobjectivesanddetailsoftheworktofurthertechnical
services,ittalksaboutchemicalandbiologicalrequirements,andit
goesontotalkabouttheGeschickterFoundationFundforMedical
Researchusedasacutout,wherebyarrangementswouldpermit
AgencysponsoredresearchprojectsusingAgencypersonneltobe
carriedoutinthenewwingwithoutGeorgetownUniversitybeing
awareofCIAinterests.ArrangementswouldalsoprovidetheAgency
withtheequivalentofahospitalsafehouseandsoforth.AllAgency
fundsforGeschickterforGeorgetownwouldbemetbymatching*|
U.S.grants.f
Now,thefactis,thatisagreatdealdifferentfromwhatactually!
happenedintermsofwhatyouhavedescribedheretoda3\Itwould|
appeartomethateithertheAgencydidthatwithoutyouknowingit,*I
tomakeitsoundsoappealingthatwhenevertheDirectoroftheAgency

**wenttothePresidentortheultimateauthorityforapprovalofit,
theyweregoingtoapprovethat,andyetthatisagooddealdifferent
fromwhattheactualfactswereintermsofyourunderstanding.
Eitherthememoisclearlyamisrepresentation,andthenwehave|
toaskourselveswhydidtheAgencydoit?OrdidyounotknowI
whattheyweredoingwiththemoneyeventhoughyouwereawitting
subjectonthat,youdidnotknowwhattheyweredoing.Either\
waythisdoesnotmakeanysense.
Dr.Geschickter.Itmakesnosense,Senator.Iagreewithyou.f
SenatorKennedy.Iftheywereoversellingwhattheyweredoing,\
andwerenotdoingitthewayyoudescribed,youweretheprincipalf
agentofthatkindoffactor,itthenleavesthequestionaboutwhowas|
gettingtheresources,whowasgettingthemoney,andwhatwere\
therealpurposes,andmaybewedonotknowtheanswertothatf

97a
one.Orifitisthattheywerefullyinterestedindoingthekindof

thingsyouweredoingintermsofresearch,thentherewereother1
agenciesofGovernmentthatcouldhavedoneit,providedprotection1
forindividuals,anddoneitverysatisfactorily.
Now,itseemstomethatthatisthedichotomythatwefindour*i
selvesinatthistime.Ineitherway,itjustdoesnotmakeanysense;l|
atall.
Dr.Geschickter.Iagreewithyou.Iagreewithyou.Icannot~
makeanysenseoutofit.1
SenatorSchweiker.Ithinkonethingthatdoesmakesensefrom*
mypastexperienceontheIntelligenceCommittee,isthatoneofthe
keyjustificationsforsubproject35ofMKULTRAasspecifiedin
thismemorandum,oneofthekeystatementsintheoutlineofthe
projectthathasbecomeavailabletousisthat"agencysponsorship
ofsensitiveresearchprojectswillbecompletelydeniable."Itappears
tomethattheagencywasoverwhelminglysuccessfulinachieving
thatobjective.
Herewearefumblingandstumblingaroundtryingtoascertain
whatwentonandwho'sresponsible.Oneofthekeyaimsofthesub
projectwascompletedeniability.
Dr.Geschickter,youseemtohaveit,weseemtohaveit,andthe
projectseemstohavebeenhandledsothatitwasacompletesuccess
intermsofcompletedeniability.
Iwouldliketocomebackonceagain,tothememorandumof
agreementforthisproject,whichseemstobesoveryelusive.

IwouldliketoreadfromarticleIXintheCIAdocumentthatwas
madeavailabletous.
MemorandumofAgreement:Amemorandumofagreementwillbesignedwith
(blank),outliningtogreatestextentpossiblethearrangementsunderwhichthe
hospitalspaceunderhiscontrolwillbemadeavailabletochemicaldivisionper
sonnelandthemannerinwhichcoverwillbeprovidedandotherbenefitsattained.
Nocontractwillbesignedsince(blank)wouldbeunabletoreflectanyofthe
Agency'scontractualtermsinhisarrangementswiththeuniversitywhen(blank)
makesthedonationinquestion.Thememorandumofagreementwillberetained
inTSS.
Now,Iamreallyconfused.Thiscouldnotbemorespecificabout
obtainingawrittenmemorandumofagreement.Ittalksaboutthe
donationtotheuniversity,thereasonswhyacontractcan'tbe
drawnup,andtheneedforamemorandumofagreementspecifying
certainthingsaboutcover,andallofthat.Elsewhere,thedocuments
explicitlysaythatyouareawareofthetermsoftheagreementand
willcooperate.
Youaretellingmethatyouabsolutelyknownothingatallabout
any^memorandumofagreement?
Dr.Geschickter.Absolutelynothing.Eveniftherewassuchagree
ment,itwouldnotbeworththepaperitwaswrittenon.Youcannot
dothatinauniversityhospital.
SenatorSchweiker.Whynot?
Dr.Geschickter.Becauseyouhavegotanursingstaffandevery
manofcaliberonthehospitalstaffhastohaveappointmentthatcomes
throughthefaculty,hehastogethegetstenure,hehastobeap
provedbya20manfaculty,andyoucannotdoitthatway.
SenatorSchweiker.IhavegottobelievetheCIAgotsomething

forthe$375,000,minimum,theyputup.

98
Dr.Geschickter.Icannotanswerthat.
SenatorSchweiker.Didtheyeveraskyoutosignsuchanagree
ment,andyourefused?
Dr.Geschickter.Neverdiscussedanyofthiswithme.Imagine
whatIthoughtofitwhenIreadit.
SenatorKennedy.Whatdidyouthink?
Dr.Geschickter.IwasinAlicein"Wonderland'sdomain.
SenatorKennedy.Whywouldtheydoit?Doyouthinkyouwere
beingsetup?
Dr.Geschickter.Idonotknowthepurpose.Icannotanswer
anyofyourquestions.Therewereplentyofhospitalfacilitiesallover
thecountry*theydidnothavetobuildone.
SenatorKennedy.Doyouthinkitispossiblethatyouwerebeing
eithermisledorkeptinthedarkaboutallofthis?
Dr.Geschickter.Iwascertainlyinthedark.Ineverheardofthis.
Itwasdeliberatelykeptfromme,orintentionallyorunintentionally,I
donotknowhowtoanswerit.
SenatorKennedy.EventhoughyouwereworkingwiththeAgency
intermsofconducting
Dr.Geschickter.T?heykeptallofthisfromme.Ineversawit,
neverheardofit,itwasneverdiscussed.
SenatorKennedy.Youwerestilltheconduitofthemoney,though?

Dr.Geschickter.Thepurposewasjustresearch,notthebuilding.
SenatorSchweikek.Whatwasthereasontheytoldyoutheywanted
tomakethischaritablecontributiontothecostofGeorgetown's
Dr.Geschickter.Theynevertoldmeanythinguntilyearslater
theytoldmetheygotinto'afightwithAimiralStraussoftheAEC,
andwhentheywouldnotputupthemoney,theyweregoingtoputit
upthemselves.
SenatorSchweiker.Whatwastherationalewhenthemoney
mysteriouslyappearedforyoutogivetoGeorgetown?
Dr.Geschickter.Itwassupposedlyforradioisotopelaboratories,
whicharestillthere,andthatistheonlythingtangiblethatwasever
obtained.
SenatorSchweiker.Well,therewasmorethanthat,becausethe
ensuingresearchprojectsthatyoudescribedyoudescribedaseries
vofsixorsevenprojects.
Dr.Geschickter.WhichprojectsareyoureferringtoSenator?
SenatorSchweiker.Oilshale,effectsofradarwavesandbraincon
cussioninanimals,poisonmushrooms*halogenderivativesexcreted
throughthelungs.
Dr.Geschickter.Theywerenearlyallfarmedoutinotherplaces.
Wedidnothavetoevensupplyatesttubeinmostofthem.
SenatorSchweiker.Right,butthefundingforthoseprojects
wentthroughyou?
Dr.Geschickter.Yes;butnoneofthatmoneystucktoourhands.
Wegot4percent.Butthatwentrightbackinresearch.Soallthese
thingsyouaretalkingaboutoccurredatotheruniversities,had
nothingtodowithWashington,D.C.

SenatorSchweiker.Yondonotdrawanyconnectionbetweenthe
moneytheyputinthebuildingandtheensuingresearchprogram?
Dr.Geschickter.Noneatall.
SenatorSchweiker.Whoapproachedyouwiththemoneyforthe
building?

99.J
Dr.Geschickter.Theoriginalidea,andthemoneythattheywouldfj
contributecamefromamanwhoisdead,whosaidherepresenteda|
Philadelphiafoundation,andhewasinterestedinsupport,because
therewasamentalretardee,andtheywantedtokeepcontributions^
anonymous,andhesaidhethoughthecouldgetsomematchingmoney.I
Butheneversaidhewouldgiveusthatamount.*
SenatorSchweiker.Thatwastheconduit?
Dr.Geschickter.Thatwastheconduit.Thatwastheoriginalfj
conduit.|j
SenatorSchweiker.Didthatmanhaveanydealingswithyouor
anyconnectionwiththesubsequentresearchprojectsyoujustdef
scribedasfundedthroughyou?j
Dr.Geschickter.No;hediedprettysoon,thereafter.
SenatorSchweiker.Whodiddirect,oroversee^

Dr.Geschickter.Iknewnothingaboutanything,becausethey|
money,thefinalaccountingofthemoney,andwhereitcamefrom,ij
weneverknewexactly.Theonlypersonwhomightknowitwasour
financialdirector,andheisalsodead.~|
SenatorSchweiker.Whydidtheydoitthroughyou?|
Dr.Geschickter.Theydidnotdoitthroughmepersonally.
SenatorSchweiker.Well,itwasyourfund.Howwereyoumade
awareoftheavailabilityofmoney?Iamnotclearonwhatrelationship1
existedbetweenyouandtheCIA,withrespecttofundsfortheseJ
projects.
Dr.Geschickter.Areyoureferringtotheprojectsofbuildingthefl
hospital,ortheseotherprojects?ij
SenatorSchweiker.Theseotherprojects.
Dr.Geschickter.Throughtheotheruniversities,
SenatorSchweiker.Iamnotclearonhowthatworked.Inother\1
words,operationally,howdidthoseprojectsproceed,andhowwere'>*
youused*
Dr.Geschickter.HowwasIused?Theseuniversitiessubmitted|
researchproposalstotheGeschickterFund.TheseresearchproposalsJ

wereonuniversitystationery.Theyoutlinedongoingresearch,and
gavetheirpublications.Theyaskedforacertainsumofmoney.Thism
moneyrequestedfortheseprojectswerethenshowntomeasresearchy[
proposalsandthemoneywasthenmadeavailablethroughpurbank
account.Wethenpassedthatmoneyontotheseparticularuniversities,.
onthebasisoftheirresearchproposals,allofwhichareindexedthrough\\
theworkofyourcommittee,thatmadethedocumentsavailabletome.*J
SenatorSchweiker.ItwasthePhiladelphiaFoundationthatacted
astheconduitformoneyonthebuildingprojects?fl
Dr.Geschickter.Yes.Weonlygot,SenatorSchweiker,weonly|J.
gotabout$75,000anonymouslyinourbooksthatIcantracetoCIA.
Allthismoneythatwearetalkingabout,thebigvolumeofmoney,?j
camethroughthePhiladelphiaFoundation.||
SenatorKennedy.Thankyouverymuch._"
OurnextwitnessesareMr.DavidRhodes,aformerCentralIn
telligenceAgencyemployee;andPhillipGoldman,alsoaformerCIAy|
employee.lj
Gentleman,wouldyoustand?
Doyouswearthetestimonyyougivewillbethetruth,thewholeJ
truth,sohelpyouGod?||
Mr.Rhodes.Yes.

::\

100
Mr.Goldman.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Mr.Rhodes,didyouworkwiththeCIA?
STATEMENTSOPDAVIDRHODESAHDPHILLIPGOLDMAN,FORMER
CIAEMPLOYEES
Mr.Rhodes.Idid.
SenatorKennedy.WhatwasyourjobwiththeAgency?
Mr.Rhodes.IworkedasapsychologistonthestanofTechnical
ServicesDivision.
SenatorKennedy.Fromwhatperiod?
Mr.Rhodes.Approximately1957or1958,untilabout1961.
SenatorKennedy.Now,didyouknowMr.Pasternak?
Mr.Rhodes.Idid.
SenatorKennedy.WehadinvitedMr.Pasternak,subpenaedMr.
Pasternak.Hewasscheduledthelasttime,andthenatthefinalhour

hedecidednottoshow,andweattemptedtogetaholdofhim.We
havenotfoundhimsince.
DidyouandMr.PasternaktraveltoCaliforniatogether?
Mr.Rhodes.Wedid.
SenatorKennedy.DidyouknowtherewasaCIAsafehousein
California?
Mr.Rhodes.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.AndthefirsttripyoumadetoCaliforniawith
Mr.Pasternakwastounderstandthedifferentwaysofdelivering
LSDtounsuspectingcitizens,isthatcorrect?
Mr.Rhodes.Thatiscorrect.
SenatorKennedy.Doyouwanttotellusthestoryinyourown
words?
Mr.Rhodes.Well,verysimply,Mr.PasternakandIwentto
California.Wewenttherewithareasonablesupplyofmoney,and
proceededforaboutaweek,simplytogoaroundtoanumberof
oars,anddrinkandmeetpeople.
Duringthattimewejustweretryingtoestablishsomesortof
relationshipwithpeoplesothatwecouldsubsequentlyinvitethem
toapartyonsomebasisthatwouldbeacceptabletothemforthat
purpose.
SenatorKennedy.Thenwhathappenedaftertheperiodofaweek?
Mr.Rhodes.Well,afterthatweekwascompleted
SenatorKennedy.Thepurpose,asIunderstandit,wastofind

waysofdeliveringLSDtounsuspectingcitizens?
Mr.Rhodes.Thatiscorrect.Weweretestingaparticulardevice,
todetermineifLSDcouldbegiveninsmallquantitiesviaanaerosol
delivery.
SenatorKennedy.Aerosoldelivery?
Mr.Rhodes.Yes;justsprayitintheair,thatiscorrect.
SenatorKennedy.Didyoulinethepeopleupforaparty?
Mr.Rhodes.Yes.Welineduppeoplethatwethoughtwecould
invitetosuchaparty.
SenatoiKennedy.Andthatresultedfromyourvisittothebars?
Mr.Rhodes.Variousbars.
SenatorKennedy.Whatwassupposedtohappenattheparty?
Mr.Rhodes.Atthepartytheintentwasthatwewouldbeableto
spraytheaerosol,whichasIunderstoodit,hadasufficientlysmall

101
quantity,ortheamountthatcouldbeingestedwouldbesufficiently
small,sothatyouwouldneedpracticedpeopletoobserveanydiffer
encesinbehaviorofpeople,butjusttoseeifitcouldbedelivered
inthatfashion.
SenatorKennedy.WasaerosolLSDbroughtouttothewestcoast?
Mr.Rhodes.Itwasbroughtout;yes.,

SenatorKennedy.Whobroughtitout?
Mr.Rhodes.JohnGittinger,asIrecall.
SenatorKennedy.WhathappenedafterMr.Gittingerarrivedout
thereinCalifornia?
Mr.Rhodes.Wehadasingularproblem.Theparticularhousewas
notairconditioned,anditwashot,andwehadtheproblemofwhether
ornotwecouldarrangetokeepwindowsanddoorsclosedlongenough
forthistypeofdelivery,andtheweatherdefeatedus.
Itwasassimpleasthat.
SenatorKennedy.Youcouldnotpostponetheparty?
Mr.Rhodes.Wewerethereforaperiodoftune.Actually,Mr.
Gittinger,asIrecall,trieditoutonhimselfinthebathroom.Hefelt
thesystemwasnotworkingadequatelytocontinuetheexercise.
SenatorKennedy.WhatdidMr.Gittingerdo?
Mr.Rhodes.Theonlyroominthehousethatcouldbecompletely
closedoffeasily,anditwouldnothavjfecirculation,wasthebathroom,
sohesprayedtheaerosolinthebathroom,toseeifhecoulddetect
whetherhewasingestinganyofit.
SenatorKennedy.Whathappenedtohim?
Mr.Rhodes.Apparentlyheaidnotgetenough,inhisterms,that
hefeltitwouldbeusefultotrytocontinueitforagroupofpeople.
SenatorKennedy.Didhesprayitallinthebathroom?
Mr.Rhodes.Yes;tothebestofmyknowledge.Ididnotseehim

doit.Hereportedthisafterhehaddoneit.
SenatorKennedy.Sothenwhathappened?Hecameoutofthe
bathroom,andwhathappened?
Mr..Rhodes.Frankly,Senator,wedecidedtoscratchitatthis
point.Weweregratefulwehadnotinvitedabunchofpeopletoa
party.
SenatorKennedy.So,asIunderstandit,threegrownmenflew
fromtheeastcoasttothewestcoasttospendaweekinthebarsout
there,togatherpeopleforaparty,andMr.Gittingerhewasthe
onlyonethatwentinthebathroom?
Mr.Rhodes.Andonlytwoofuswereinthebars.
SenatorKennedy.Thenwhathappened?Thenyouallwentback
totheairport?
Mr.Rhodes.Simplyclosedupshop.
SenatorKennedy.Closedupshop?
Mr.Rhodes.Gotontheairplaneandcamehome.
SenatorKennedy.Canyoumakeanydeterminationofwhatthe
valueofthatparticularexperiencewastotheAgencyatall?
Mr.Rhodes.Well,youknow,impliedinwhatIsaidwasthatyou
cannotdeliveritbyaerosolunderthoseconditions.
SenatorKennedy.DidyouandMr.Pasternaktakeanyother
tripstoSanFrancisco?Wasthistheonlyone?
Mr.Rhodes.Yes,sir,wedid.".

SenatorKennedy.Youdid?
Mr.Rhodes.Yes.

102
SenatorKennedy.Whatwasthepurposeoftheothertrip?
Mr.Rhodes.Totallyunrelatedtoanythingrelatedtodrugs.We
attendedtheFirstNationalConventionofLesbiansinthiscountry.
SenatorSchweiker.Canyoureportonthevalueofthattrip?
SenatorKennedy.Whatistheconnection?
Mr.Rhodes.Themajorconnectionwasthattheprimarywork
iBf,thatweweredoing,ofapsychologicalnature,wastotestaparticular
^theorydevelopedbyMr.Gittinger,intermsofnatureofper
sonality
SenatorSchweiker.Thisisafterhehasbeeninthebathroom?
Mr.Rhodes.Thathasbeendevelopedoveryears.Thetheory
wasveryusefulinthatunlikemostofwhatwasbeingdoneatthe
time,youcouldworkfromtestingmaterialsthatis,psychological
testingtobehavior,andthenwithtrainingobservebehavior,and
workbacktohowpeoplewouldperformontests.Andtodothis
therewereanumberofdifferentkindsofgroupsvisitedbyoneperson
oranother,totrytogettestresults,observebehavior,andbuild
normalbackgroundsofpersonalitymaterialsrelatedtothisparticular
testingoperation.
SenatorKennedy.DidyouknowMorganHall?
Mr.Rhodes.Yes,Imethim.
SenatorKennedy.Didyouknowanythingaboutthedetailsof
thesafehouseheraninSanFrancisco?

Mr.Rhodes.Thisisthesafehousethatwestayedat,Pasternak
andIstayedat.Thatiswherethepartywouldhavebeenheld.Iam
talkingabouttheoneintheMarinCounty.
SenatorKennedy.Therewereothers?
Mr.Rhodes.Apparentlytherewereothers.
SenatorKennedy.Beforeleavingthis,justintermsofthetesting
oftheLSDaerosol,doyouhaveanysenseatallaboutthefactthat
thesepeoplewouldhavebeenunwittingsubjects,subjecttothiskind
ofdrug,thatithashadsomeextremelyimportantnegativeimpacts
onindividuals,someabsolutelytragicresults?
Ithinkwehaveseenthoseperhapsmoreinrecenttimesthan
that,butIamsureintermsofthosethatunderstoodvhedrug,even
duringthatperiodoftime,werefullyawareofit,andIdonotknow
whetheryouhaveanyreaction.
Obviouslyitiseasiertolookbackintermsoftheatmosphere,the
moralatmosphereofthetimeswasdifferent,butIdonotknow
whetherthereisanythingyouwouldliketosayonthat,orwhether
youwoulddoitagain.
Mr.Rhodes.Thatisreallyhardformetosay,Senator.Iwas
awarethatthiswasanunwittingadministration.Thatwasthe
intent.Itdidnotcomeoff.Thatstillwastheintent.
Thepurposeofthissortoftestingwassimplythatapersonwho
takesanLSDtripandcanattributeittotheLSDwasonekindof
behavioralreaction.Andtherewassomereasonablenesstobelieve
thatapersonwhohadsomeoftheseinternalreactionsanddidnot
knowwhattoattributethemtowouldbehaveinadifferentway.We
feltweneededtodothisinconnectionwithsomeofthebrainwashing
work,andsomeoftheotherthings,astowhethertherewasan
unwittingthing,andtheonlywaywecoulddiscovertodoitwasto
doitinthisfashion.

103
Wedidtakeprecautionstotrytomakeitsmallestpossibledo9ev
thatcouldbedeliveredthatwouldbedetectable.Butwhatyouare
implyingisperfectlytrue.'
SenatorKennedy.Mr.Goldman,howlongdidyouworkforthe
CIA?
Mr.Goldman.FromMarchof1958untilJanuary,Ithink,around
1968,January.
SenatorKennedy.Wereyounotinvolvedinlaboratorydevelop
ment,gadgetsanddevicesofdifferentkinds?
Mr.Goldman.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Couldyoudescribewhatyouknowaboutthe
operationoftheNewYorksafehouse?
Mr.Goldman.TheNewYorksafehousewassetupattherequest
of,Ibelieve,itwasDr.Bortner,thatitwouldbeafacilitythatwould
beavailableforusebytheAgencyintheeventtheywantedtouseit."
InconnectionwiththatitwasalsomadeavailabletotheBureauof
Narcotics,forwhateverusetheywishedtomakeofit.Itwasalsoat
thattimesuggestedtomethatweputinatwowaymirror,sothat
anyinterviewsandthatsortofthing,whichwouldbegoingoninone
roomcouldbeobservedfromtheotherroom.Andataperecorderwas
alsoinstalled.
Tothebestofmyknowledge,Senator,thisparticularplacewas
usedbytheBureauofNarcoticsintheirdrugwork,andasfarasthe
Agencywasconcerned,Iwasnotmadeawareofanyusethatitwould
beputtoduringthetime.

Itwasunderstoodthatitwouldpossibly,orcouldbeusedbyother
partsoftheAgency,orotherpartsofthegroupsthatwewereworking
with.
SenatorKennedy.Well,ofcourse,youhaveseenthedocument
madein1963whichbearsyournameonit,andthentherequestfor.
futurefundsforthecontinuationofthesubproject42,Itsaysthatin
thepastyearanumberofcovertandrealisticfieldtrialshavebeen
successfullycarriedout.
Soyoumusthavesomeknowledgeorawareness?
Mr.Goldman.Senator,therewas,tothebestofmyknowledge,
nothingcarriedoutinthatsafehouse,tothebestofmyknowledge.
Wedid,however,wediddosomethroughthe^BureauofNar
coticswedidgetacamera,workedwithaphotograph,todetermine
thepresenceofmarijuanaandthepresenceofopiumpoppies.Wealso
workedthroughthemtogetadevicewehadamaterialwithivy,
Virginiaivy,Englishivy,whichwhenputonitwouldstuntit,and
preventitfromgrowinganyfurther,wouldstopitsgrowthatthat
point.
WeusedtheAgency,BureauofNarcotics,atthatpoint,togetfor
usasprayerwhichwouldspraythisparticularmaterialinavery
definitiveband,andacertainwidth.
Wealso,throughtheAgencynotthroughtheBureauthrough
theprojectwealsohaddevelopedameansforapplyingthetsargas
CSthatcouldbefittedintoabillyclub,orariotstick.
Wehadatthesametimegiventothepeoplethereatthesafehouse,
andwhoitwasnow,Icannotrecall,samplesofteargasdispensers
whichcouldbeusedforselfprotection.
Now,thewordingImightpointoutthatthewordingofalotof
theseprojectsisdeliberatelymisleading.

fe*

104
SenatorKennedy.Thewhat?
Mr.Goldman.Thewording.
SenatorKennedy.Thewordingonwhat?
Mr.Goldman.Thewordingonaproject,thereasonforaproject.
SenatorKennedy.Youmeanthejustificationfortheproject?
Mr.Goldman.Justification,no,holdon.
SenatorKennedy.Theonesthatwerebumpedupstairs,so
that
Mr.Goldman.Theoriginal

SenatorKennedy.Thosehavingresponsibilityinmakingthe
decisionsweregettinginformationthatwasdeliberatelymisleading?
Mr.Goldman.Iwastold,whetheritwasDr.Bortner.
SenatorKennedy.Speakupalittle.
Mr.Goldman.Iwastold,1donotknowwhetheritwasDr.Bortner,

orwhoitwasatthetime,thatweweretocontinuethesafehouseand
justifyitsuse.
SenatorKennedy.Youwerejusttoldbyyoursupervisorsto
continuethesafehouse,andworkoutajustificationforit?
Mr.Goldman.Right.
SenatorKennedy.Whywouldhedothat?
Mr.Goldman.Toprovidethejustification,sothathecouldextend
itmore.
SenatorKennedy.Youwerenotsupposedtojustifyfromwhat
youknewaboutit,eventhoughyouhadsomeresponsibility
Mr.Goldman.FromwhatIknew,yes,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Youweretoldfromyoursupervisortogo
aheadandjustifyit?
Mr.Goldman.AsfarasIknow,therewasnothingdoneinthat
safehouse.
SenatorKennedy.Butwhywouldasuperioraskyoutojustwork
outajustificationdidthathappeninanyotherprogramthat
youwereinvolvedinintheagency?
Mr.Goldman.Yes,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Inotherprograms?
Mr.Goldman.Inanotherarea,wherethewordageoftheproject
wassuchthatitshowedoverorsurreptitious,orwhateveritwas.
SenatorKennedy.Wherewouldtherealfactsbeintermsofwhat

wasgoingon?Iftheagentwhowasgoingtojustifyitistoldbythe
superiornowtowordtheexplanation,itwasnotonlyinthisproject,
butinanotherprojectaswell?
Mr.Goldman.Itmusthavebeenusedbyotherpeople,thatis
myonlysolution.
SenatorKennedy.DidyouknowwhatwentonintheSanFrancisco
safehouse?
Mr.Goldman.TheSanFranciscosafehouse,Ineverknewasa
safehouse,untilthetimethattheepisodethatDr.Rhodesmentioned
toyou.IhadnoideaatthattimethatIamquitesurethatthis
wasatemporaryestablishment.Iwasawarethatitwasgoingtobe
going
SenatorKennedy.Excuseme?
Mr.Goldman[continuing].Iwasawareofwhatwasgoingtobe
goingonthere,becauseIwasthepersonthatputtogethertheaerosol
deviceandthetrippingdevicetosetitoff.
SenatorKennedy.Youwereawareofthatproject?

1051}
Mr.Goldman.Thatitwas
SenatorKennedy.Experimental?:|
Mr.Goldman.Onanexperimentalbasis.^
SenatorKennedy.Wereyouawareofotherresearchgoingon?

Mr.Goldman.Notatthatsafehouse.fl
SenatorKennedy.Atanyothersafehouse?yi
Mr.Goldman.No;asfarasIknow,therewasnoothersafehouse.
Occasionally,whenIwouldgooutIwouldmeetwithMorganHallat*
adowntownplace,whichwassimplynothingmorethanamotel1
room.'**
SenatorKennedy.Youcarriedthemoneytothepeoplerunning
thesafehouses?fl
Mr.Goldman.Generallysentittothem,orcarriedittothem.Oncesi
inawhileIcarriedittothem.Igenerallysentittothem.
SenatorKennedy.Youhadtheresponsibilityofgettingthemoney*|
tothem?t|
Mr.Goldman.IgotittoMorganHall,sentittohim.
SenatorKennedy.MorganHallisGeorgeWhite?
Mr.Goldman.Thatismyunderstanding.I
SenatorKennedy.Wehaveintherecordthatsince1963you^
approvedsome$2,000thatis,22checks,undercoveragentsfor
operations,andyouapprovedall!1
Mr.Goldman.Yes.j|

SenatorKennedy.Andsince1964,some$4,800,andthesethings
goonyearafteryear.Yetyoudonotknowwhatthismoneywasfor?p*
Mr.Goldman.Youdidnotaskmethatuntilthismoment.'1
SenatorKennedy.OK,Iwillaskyou.^
Mr.Goldman.Youdidnotaskme.Youareputtingwordsinmy
mouth.'H
SenatorKennedy.Didyouknowwhatthemoneywasfor?I
Mr.Goldman.Thankstoyourexcellentstaff,andthecareful
reviewofsomedocumentsyesterday,afterIhadbeenoutofthefi
UnitedStatesforover,practicallyamonth.Icamebackvoluntarilyy
soIcouldtestify,andcutshortthebusinesstrip,andthankstoyour
excellentstaff,Iwasshownsomedocuments,andaskedifthatwould.^
refreshmymemory,becauseinthebecausethelasttimewhenwe||
satupacrossfromeachother,Icouk}notremember,andIfrankly*
couldnot.
Theydidshowmethese,andthis,tothebestofmyknowledgeIf|
cantellyouwhatwasinvolved.WhenItookoverthatproject,andjj
itwassimplypassedontomeasanotherpersontomonitortheproject,
theyalreadyhad,apparentlyfromtherecordsIhadseen,donesomerj
workthatinvolvedadrugofonesortliketetrahydrocannabinal,||
someofthesethings,andIsatdownwithWhiteatthattimeand^

askedhim,inhisopinionwasthereanyjustificationforanycontin
uation,andwhatwastheresultofwhathehadseen.I|
Hethoughtthathehadmilkedthatinformationdry,asfarasanyi$
informationwouldbeconcerned.
Myinterestin,hasbeenallthetimeIwaswiththeAgency,has
beenmoredirectedtowardthedevicesandgadgetarea,andharass
menttypeofthings.ForthatpurposeIhaddevelopedforusdif
ferentkindsofmaterials,anddifferentthingswhichheevaluatedfor
me.

106
Itookthemoutthere,turnedthemovertohim,andaskedhimif
hewouldtakealookandletusknowwhetherornotitwassuitable
forthispurpose.
Now,amongthesethingswasalaunchingdevicetolaunchaglass
ampulethatwouldbreak,thatwouldevenhaveinitteargasCS
gpatthattimewehadCSavailabletous,averyfinepowder,whichair
wouldblowaround,oraveryodoriferousmaterialwhichcouldbe
used,referredtobylotasstinkbombs,usedforbreakingupdemon
strations.
Bothofthesethingswereforthepurposeofdisruptingorbreaking
updemonstrations.
SenatorScHWEiKER.WhatwastheAgency'sinterestinteargas?
Mr.Goldman.Thepurposetherewastobreakupdemonstrations,

overseascountries,wheretheyhadpeoplecrowdedintoaplaza,
anditcouldbelaunched,andlaunchedinsuchawaythattheperson
launchingitwouldnotbeseen,andwouldnothavetheproblemthat
hashappenedinonecase,wheretheyhadahoteloverlookingthe
plazaandthepersondrewbackwiththeodoriferousmaterialand
threwitoutthewindow,andithitthesideofthewindow,andbounced
backintheroom.
Sowedevelopedaverysilentlaunchingdevice,whichyoucould
throwitabout100yards.
SenatorKennedy.Couldweaskhowtheseweretested,how
weretheyevaluated?
Mr.Goldman.Theywereevaluated,tobeveryfrankwithyou,
participatedinsomeoftheevaluationofthese,becauseIwasin
terestedindoingit,seeingitmyself,andweusedthebeachhouse
fromSanFrancisco,andthrewthestuffataveryisolatedspot,so
wewouldnotbeobserved,andmeasuredthedriftofthethingto
findoutifitiseffective,howfaritwouldbeeffectiveandnoticeable..
OnethingthisparticularpowdermaterialhadwhichAveworked
upthedevices,inwhichIturnedoverthedevicestohim,thatis,
toMorganHall,toevaluateforhimwhichIdidnotparticipatein,
takingthematerial,andputitinveryfineglass,thinglassampules,
whichcouldbedroppedonthefloorandsteppedoncovertly,and
averylittlebitofthepowderwouldcomeout.
Thisparticularmaterialissopotentifyouwanttousethatword,
inirritatingthenose,itisperfectlyharmless,thatitcausessneezing
ifitisinaclosedroom.Ifitisinaroomthatisinanexhibitionroom,
^ifitisinasmallmeetingroom,orsomethingofthatsort,evena

largemeetingroom,itwillcausevery,veryviolentsneezingand
.continuedsneezing,andtheonlywaytogetridofitistogetout.^
Thepurposeagainherewastogetthepeopleoutofit,forexample,
intradefairs,andIwastoldthethoughtwasitcouldbeusedin
|tradefairsoverseas,inunfriendlycountryexhibitareas,whereit
'wouldbeused,anditwouldnotbeattributed,becauseitwouldnot
bedetected.
jSenatorKennedy.Doyouknowifiteverwas?
|Mr.Goldman.AsfarasIknow,Ireallydonotknowwhetherthat
particularmaterialwas.Idoknowthattheothermaterialwas,but
Iwastellingaboutthelauncher.
jTheotherthingthatwedid,theotherthingthatwehadhim
evaluate,wehadamaterialthatwasverypotentondogs,forquiet
ingguarddogs.

107
IrememberIgavehimsomeofthematerial,gavehimtheright
combinationofthematerialtoputinhamburger,groundmeat,totryFl
onsomedogs,whichheknewwereguarddogs,andwhichwouldbark,;J
inwhoseyard,Idonotknow,wherethesedogswere,buthedideval
uatethisforme,andhesaiditdidwork.^

Hesaidthenextmorningthedogswerebackup,butatthetimeI
theywerecompletelysilenced."*
SenatorKennedy.Whatabouttheswizzlestick?
Mr.Goldman.Theswizzlestick,thisparticularmaterialwell,ft
theideawasthatwewoulddevelop,ormakeaswizzlestickforacockI
tail,whichwouldhavethecoatingonit,whichwouldbesolublein
water,solubleinthecocktailitself,butwhichwhenyouuseit,wouldti
beundetectable.Inotherwords,itwculdnotlookunnaturalwhenyouj|
useit,layitonthetablealongsideofit,nordiditcreateanyadverse
tasteatall.
Weused,forthatpurpose,materialwhichhadaverybitter,avery|J
bittereffect,very,verytinylittlebit,whichwhenputontheswizzle&
stickfirst,coatedit,andIgavethesetoMr.Whitetotrycuttoseeif
thematerialcameoffinactualusethewaywehopeditwouldcome"|
off.Hereportedbacktomeagainonthis,thatitdidwork,thatitJ
workedquitewell.
SenatorKennedy.Whodidhetestthaton,doyouknow?,,
Mr.Goldman.Ihavenoidea.Hetoldmethatitworked,thatitI
passed,inotherwords,surreptiticusly.*
SenatorKennedy.Youmusthaveassumedthiswasbeingtested

inthesafehouse?|
Mr.Goldman.No;Iwouldthinknot.IthinkitwouldhavebeenJ
testedinthebar,becausetothebestofmyknowledge,thissafehouse
youkeeptalkingabout,Ithinkwassetupforthisparticularoperationi
thattheyaretalkingabout,andIdonotbelieveitexistedafterthat.J
SenatorKennedy.WewillhearfromDr.Gottliebtomorrowabout
that.
Mr.Goodman.AsfarasIknow,Idoknowthatoneotherthingl|
thatweworkedon,andinthisparticularcasethiswassomethingthat^
wasadministered,orusedtobeadministeredtoindividuals,itwasan
aminotypeofacid,whichwassupposedtobeperfectlyinnocuouswhenff
used,butwassupposedIevenrecallthenamegammahydroxybuH
tyricacid,whichwasreputedintheliteraturetocausesleepiness.
SenatorKennedy.Sleeplessiness?*
Mr,Goldman,Sleepiness.Tomakeonemorelethargic.NotputJ
youtosleep,notknockoutdrops,butmakeyousleepy.
Igavehimseveralsamplesofit,andaskedhimifhewouldevaluate
it.Ithoughttherewasaslightamino,Iwouldsaylikeglutamicacid,||
withduerespecttoSenatorSchweiker,ittasteslikeamushroom,andMi
hasthatmushroomyflavorofthisparticularone.

SenatorKennedy,Whataboutthesyringe,thehypodermicneedlef|
todeliverdrugsinwinebottles?|J
Mr.Goldman.Whichoneisthisnow?
SenatorKennedy.Thehypodermicneedletodeliverdrugsinwine;.
bottles.Didtheytestthatoutthere,too?j
Mr.Goldman.Yes;theytestedthatoutthere.Thepurposeofi
testingthis,Senator,wastofindoutifthebartender,inhandlingthe
bottles,orifapersonsubsequenttothatwouldseethatthecorkj]
hadbeenpenetrated,andwefoundoutbyusingaveryfinehypodermicii

108
syringeofsufficientlength,andputtingitattheproperplace,over
thecap,sothattheholewouldbeundetected,andyoucouldsmear
overalittlebitwithsomethingtocoveritover,Iwastoldtha*it
workedperfectlyforthepurpose.
SenatorKennedy.ThiswastestedbyMorganHall,too?
Mr.Goldman.Onlytotheextentthathetestedittofindoutif
itcouldbeused.Ishowedhimhowtouseit,whereitshouldbeput
Cindifferentkindsofbottles.
SenatorKennedy.Thiswasputtingdrugsinwinebottles?
Mr.Goldman.Hedidnotpu'drugsinwinebottles.Ifhedid,I
didnotknowaboutit.

SenatorKennedy.Wasthatnottheintentofthetest?
Mr.Goldman.Thepurposeofthetestwastofindoutifitwould
benoticed.
SenatorKennedy.Howwouldyoudothat?Youwoulddoittoa
winebottleinabar,Iimagine?
Mr.Goldman.Thatisright.
SenatorKennedy.Doyoupresumethathediddoittoawine
bottleinabar?
Mr.Goldman.Ipresumehediditsomeplace.Hemayhavedone
itandaskedpeopletotakealookatthebottles,toseeiftheysawit.
SenatorKennedy.Whatdoyouassume?
Mr.Goldman.Iwouldassumethelatter.
SenatorKennedy.Whataboutpassingofpillssurreptitiously?
Mr.Goldman.Oh,inthisparticularcase,wehad,orthoughtwe
had,indeedinthecaseofameetingofsomesort,wheretheywould
wanttoputapillinaperson'sglass,oratabar,andthepurpose
herewastofindoutifitcouldbepassedon,andcouldbeintroduced
intotheglasswithoutattractingtheattentionoftheindividuals,and
heagainreportedtomethatinthisparticularcasethatyoubetter
gobacktothedrawingboard,becausewhenithitsthewaterit
fizzlesup,andmadefuzzontopofthewater.
Now,wehadanotherparticularthingthatwedid,inwhichhe
evaluated,anddiditsoitcouldnotbeobservedandcheckedoutin
anyway,wastotakethinglassfibers,polyglasfibers,andputan
odoriferousmaterialinthem.Theseweresealedattheendand

cleanedoff,andtheseparticularfiberscouldthenbeintroduced
underneaththeedgeofarug,andbysteppingontherugi.would
breakitandreleasetheodoriferousmaterialandcreateabadodor
inameetingroom..
SenatorKennedy.Also,thereweresomekindsofdrugswhich
gaveapersondiarrhea,asIunderstandit?
jMr.Goldman.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Alloftheseweretested,andbeingevaluated
byMorganHall?
iMr.Goldman.Yes,sir.
!SenatorKennedy.Theywereallbasicallyonunwittingsubjects?
Mr.Goldman.Iwouldassumethatthiswasso.Ineverpar
|ticipatedinanyofthem,buttheideabeingthattheywouldnotbe
attributed,andthattheperson,forexample,wouldfeelallright.
Anothertestwhichwasmade

Kit

109
SenatorKennedy.Wehave,got'alonglistofdifferentthings,
differentexamples,ofwhatwasbeingtested.Wehavethebackground
ofalltheotherfactsonunwittingsubjectsandawholewiderangeof
activities.

Itwasquiteclearthat,intermsofthewestcoast,andtosome
extent,aswell,theeastcoast*
Mr.Goldman.Tothebestofmyknowledge,theeastcoastdid
not

SenatorKennedy.Therewereeastcoast
Mr.Goldman.ThisIdidnotknow.
SenatorKennedy.Well,wewillnotgetintothanow.
Justfinally,inthedocumentsthatyouarefamiliarwithhere,is
thiswhatyouarereferringtowhenyousayinthepastyearanum
berofcovertandrealisticfieldtrialshavebeensuccessfullycarried
out?
Mr.Goldman.Iwouldsayso;yes.TherewereanumberwhichI
couldgointo.
SenatorKennedy.Idonotthinkso.Ithinkthatisallright.
SenatorSchweikeb.IwouldjustliketoaskMr.Rhodesaquestion
relatedtothepointSenatorKennedybroughtupearlieraboutthe
ethicsofunwittingtesting.
Wasyouranswerdirectedtothetimeyouwereoperatingin,then,
ornow?Iwasnotquiteclearaboutyourviewofunwittingtests.
Mr.Rhodes.Yes,Senator,itwastothattimeframe.
Thatwasapeculiarperiodinourhistory.Ireallycannotanswer
thequestion,iianothernew,strangehallucinogenorsomethinglike
thatcameonthescene,aswhetherIwouldparticipateinsuchan

activityornot.AtthetimeIthoughtitwasworthwhiletodo.
TherewouldbenoreasontodoanysuchthingtodaythatIknowof.
SenatorSchweikeb.Letusbringituptotoday.Thiscommittee
isconfrontedwiththetaskofwritinganewlawfortheprotectionof
humansubjects.OnepertinentquestionIwouldliketoaskisif
theAmericanPsychologicalAssociation,orthebodythatperforms
accreditingorlicensingfunctionsforclinicalpsychologists,prescribes
anykindofethicalstandardsonthisissuetoday?
Inotherwords,isthereanethicalstandardintheprofession,
developedbytheAmericanPsychologicalAssociationorsomeother
group,relatingtounwittingtestsonhumansubjectstoday?
Mr.Rhodes.Senator,Iamnotabsolutelysure.Buthavingread
thoseethics,Iwouldstronglysuspectthereisaverystrongstate
ment.
SenatorSchweikeb.Whatdoyoufeeltheneedsandresponsibilities
intermsofnewlegislationandwithintheprofessionaretodayinthis
regard?Forgetthepastandthetimeframeofthepast.Whatabout
today?Whatisyourjudgmentonwhatisneeded?
Mr.Rhodes.Mypersonalfeelingisthatadministeringofdrugs
topeopleunwittingly,itissomethingthatwethisisthetimeto
stoptillssortofthing.Iwouldsuggestwenothaveanyunwitting
administrationinthefuture.Thatisapersonalopinion.
SenatorKennedy.Thankyouverymuch.
OurlastpanelofwitnessesincludeMr.CharlesSiragusa,former
DeputyCommissioneroftheFederalBureauofNarcotics;Mr.George

9SS3977

1
3

110
Belk,formerDistrictSupervisorfortheNewYorkOfficeoftheFed
eralBureauofNarcotics;Mr.IraFeldman,formeragentfortheFed
eralBureauofNarcotics;andDr.RobertLashbrook,formerCIA
employee.
Gentlemen,pleaseriseandraiseyourrighthands.
Doyouswearthetestimonyyougivewillbethetruth,thewhole
truth,andnothingbutthetruth?
[Messrs.Feldman,Belk,Lashbrook,andSiragusaansweredinthe
affirmative.]
SenatorKennedy.WewillbehavingDr.Gottliebwithustomor
row,whowillrespondtoanumberofrelatedareasofinquiryhere.
Ithinkitisimportantthatweunderstandthathewillbetestifying.
Heisworkingcloselywiththecommittee.Thesemattershavebeen
relatedobviouslytotheareasofinquiryhere.
Hehasbeengrantedimmunity,sohehasbeenveryresponsive.

Now,wemightstartoffwithDr.Lashbrook.
AccordingtotheCIAresponsetoourSeptember25,1975,letter,
Dr.LashbrookenteredondutyonAugust9,1951,and.transferred,
toTSSonNovember24,1951.HewasaresearchchemistonProject
Engineer.
From1952to1956hewasDeputyChiefoftheChemistiyDivision
ofTSSunderDr.Gottlieb.Hecontinuedinthisareauntilheresigned
in1963.Isthatcorrect?
STATEMENTOPROBERTLASHBROOK,M.D.,FORMERCIAEMPLOYEE;
ACCOMPANIEDBYCHARLESSIRAGUSA,FORMERDEPUTYCOM
MISSIONER,FEDERALBUREAUOFNARCOTICS;ANDGEORGE
BELK,FORMERBUREAUOFNARCOTICSSUPERVISOR,APANEL
Dr.Lashbrook.Essentiallyso,yes.
SenatorKennedy.Wouldyouliketocorrectitinanyway?
Dr.Lashbrook.IwasnotnecessarilyDeputyChiefthatlong.
SenatorKennedy.Howlongwereyou?
Dr.Lashbrook.Idonotrecall.
SenatorKennedy.DidyouworkwithDr.Gottlieb?
Dr.Lashbrook.Yes;Idid.
SenatorKennedy.Canyoutelluswhatyourrelationshipwith
Gottliebwasintermsofthehierarchy?
Dr.Lashbrook.Well,IwashisDeputy,whichbasicallymeant
thatwhenhewasoutoftownIwouldactforhimlargelyinanadmin

istrativecapacity,ortoanswerquestions,oranythingthatwould
comeup.
SenatorKennedy.Wereyouinvolvedwiththeprojectsthathave
cometobeknownasMKULTRA?
Dr.Lashbrook.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.YouarelistedasprojectmonitorontheMK
ULTRAsubprojectNo.3,whichinvolvedrealisticfieldtestingof
R.&D.itemsofinteresttotheCIA.
Doyourememberthatproject?
Dr.Lashbrook.Whichonewasthat?
SenatorKennedy.ThatisNewYorksafehouse.
Dr.Lashbrook.MorganHall?
SenatorKennedy.NewYorksafehouse,MorganHall;yes.

Ill

1
3

Dr.Lashbrook.Well,Imayhavebeenlistedasthemonitor,or
whatnotforthatproject,butinfactIneverdid.Mypersonalknowl
edgeofthatparticularoperationwasstrictlysecondhand.
SenatorKennedy.Youwerelisted,butyousayyouhadnoknowl
edge,or>oudidnothaveanythingtodowithit?^
Dr.Lashbrook.ThefactthatImighthavebeenlistednowIdofi
notknowyesterdayIguess,IwasshownapieceofpaperonwhichI
waslisted,andthisIbelievewastheauthorizationforthatparticular
project.
Now,mysignaturewasonthere,alongwithmanyothersignatures
inthepieceofpaperthatIsaw.Thefactthatmysignatureonthere
doesnotnecessarilymeanthtIwasactuallytheonewhosignedfor?i
thatproject,y
IcouldhavesignedoffonitadministrativelyforDr.Gottlieb.At
thetimethatwentthrough,Icouldhavebeenlistedastheproject
officerforthatproject,butthatcouldbesubsequentlychanged.v]
SenatorKennedy.Whatcanwegatherfromthefactthatitsays,&
thisprojectwillinvolverealisticfieldtestingofR.&D.itemsof
interesttotheCH/TSS.Duringthecourseofresearchitissometimes|
foundthatcertainfieldtestexperiments,ortestsarenotsuitedtoj
ordinarylaboratoryconditions.Atthesametimeitwouldbedifficult,
ifnotimpossible,toconductthemwithoperationalfieldtests.This,,
projectisdesignedtoprovidefacilitiestofilltheseintermediateI

requirements,itwillbeconductedbyMorganHall,andwewillhave^
certainsupportactivities.
Youhavesignedittwice.Ithasyoursignatureonittwice.|
Whatshouldwegather?J
Dr.Lashbrook.Isthattheauthorizingdocument?
SenatorKennedy.Thatisright.Yousawthis,ithasthoseitems71
typed,andithasRobertLashbrook,ChemicalDivision,approved,I
RobertLashbrookforSidneyGottlieb.Youhavetwosignatureson
there.
Dr.Lashbrook.Doesithaveothersignatures?I
SenatorKennedy.Yes;ithasMr.Gibbons.'*
Dr.Lashbrook.AHright.
AsIthinkIwasintimatingalittlebitbefore,Icannotmakemuch?|
senseoutofwhatyouhaveread.Itwasintimatedbefore,Ithink,ay
largepartofthe.documentsthatyouhaveofthisnature,arewhatwe
calledboilerplatej
SenatorKennedy.Excuseme?I
Dr.Lashbrook.Boilerplate.Whatwasactuallysignedoffonwas
notthesameastheactualproposal,oractualdetailedproject.

SenatorKennedy.Howfrequentlydoyouuseboilerplate?Doyou\
signoffonthingsthatarenotrelevanttowhatisreallyhappening?m
Dr.Lashbrook.Youhaveboth.Youhavewhatyousignon,and
theactualproject,sidebyside.Ji
SenatorKennedy.Whohasgottherealfile?y
Dr.Lashbrook.TSS.
SenatorKennedy.Pardon?
Dr.Lashbrook.TSS.
SenatorKennedy.Youmeanthisisnottherealfile.Itisstamped
topsecret.
Dr.Lashbrook.Itisarealfile.Itistheonewhichgoesthrough,
receivesthesignatures,andisthenfiled.

112
SenatorKennedy:Itiswhat?
Dr.Lashbrook.Itisthenfiled.
SenatorKennedy.Itisarealfile,butdoesnotmeananything,is
thataboutwhatyouaresaying?
Dr.Lashbrook.Ithasadministrativevalue.
SenatorKennedy.Itisnottellingwhatthestoryis?

Dr.Lashbrook.Thatisright.Notnecessarily.
SenatorKennedy.Notnecessarily?
SenatorSchweiker.Whatisthis,acoverfile?Dowehavecover
files?Isthatwhatwearedealingwith?
Dr.Lashbrook.Inasense,andinasenseitwasdoneforsecurity.
Inotherwords,thefilesthatwentthroughthesystemendedup
whentheFinancialSectionobviouslyTSSlostcontrolofthosefiles.
SenatorSchweiker.SotheFBIhada"donotfile"procedurede
signedtohandlethissortofthing,andtheCIAhasacoverfilesys
temtohandleit.Inthiscase,though,someofthecoverfilescontain
prettydamaginginformationthatdoesn'tseemtoreflectwellonthe
Agency'suseofhumansubjectsIwonderwhattherealfilecontains.
SenatorKennedy.TheAgencyhasalreadyadmittedthatthe
testingisgoingon.
Dr.Lashbrook.Correct.
SenatorKennedy.Sothisisaccurate,theyhaveindicatedtests
aregoingon,andthisdoessaythetestswillbegoingon,anditis
approved.Whatistheextentofthoseboilerplateapprovalsordis
approvalsthatyoumakereferenceto?Howroutineisthat?
Dr.Lashbrook.Theyaresummaries.Itisasummary.Maybe
thatwouldbebetter.
SenatorKennedy.Butistheinformationaccurateorinaccurate?
Dr.Lashbrook.Probablyitisreasonablyaccurate.Icouldnot
say,youknow,atthispointintime.Wearetalkingaboutagenera
tionago,soIcouldnotsay.

SenatorKennedy.Now,thereisanotherauthorizeddocumentI
thinkyousawyesterday,forOctober1953,sameproject,whereyou
signedoffonit.Isthatboilerplate,too?
Dr.Lashbrook.Idonotrecallwhichoneyouaretalkingabout.
SenatorKennedy.Youaretalkingaboutboilerplatefilesthatare
notrevealingintermsoftheirsubstance.
Dr.Geschickterindicatedthatanumberofthefilesthatrepre
sentedhischargesandreimbursementswerecompletelyinaccurate
anddistorted.
Anotheragent,Mr.Goldman,indicatedthatthiswasaprocedure
intheAgencyitself,andwehavehearditagain,forthethirdtime
thismorning.
Itisourunderstandingfromexaminationofthesevariousfiles
thatthisisthecaseintermsofboilerplatecontinuationofvarious
projects,andreviewingmanyofthese,youfindalmosttheexact
samelanguage10yearsinarow.Maybeoneword,orasecondword
isalteredorchanged.
Wouldyoubesurprisedifthatprocesswasfollowed,andthat
procedurewasfollowed?
Dr.Lashbrook.WouldIbesurprised?
SenatorKennedy.Yes.
Dr.Lashbrook.No.

113
SenatorKennedy.Whydoyousaythat?Youhavebeeninthem
Agency,andevidentlyyouhaveseenthewaytheywritethereports.J
Dr.Lashbrook.Well,accuraterecordswerekept,accuratefiles
weremaintained,yes.Now,suchathingassummariesweremade,~
theyaresummaries,thenifyouaredealingwithasummary,itis1
justthat.Butthepaperthatwasjustshowntomewouldbe^
nothinglessthanasummary.
Icouldlookatthat,andIcouldsayIdonotreallyknowwhatfl
thatpaperistalkingabout.Itdoesnotsayenough.ItdoesnotsayJ
much.
SenatorKennedy.Itdoesnotsaymuch.Doesnotasummarysum%,
upinformation?Whatyouaresayingis,eventhoughitmightbe;j
labeledasummary,itisdoneinsuchawaythatyoudonotknow**
whatitisreallysummarizing?
Dr.Lashbrook.Itmightbeaverybriefsummary.
SenatorKennedy.Butintermsofwhatyouaresayinghereis
thatyouareatleastfamiliarwiththeprocessbywhichinformationis
preparedinsuchawayastonotbeeitheraccurateormeaningfuli
Dr.Lashbrook.Nottobetoorevealing.J

SenatorKennedy.Wheredoesthatleaveus?Doweassumethat
alltheinformationrelatedtotheseprojectswereactuallydestroyed,
andthatwhatwehaveheroaredocumentswithinaccurate,orJ
unrevealinginformation?J
Dr.Lashbrook.Iwouldnotknow.Iamnotsurewhatyoudohave.
SenatorKennedy.Didyouknowthesubstanceofthefieldtest,[|
aboutthetestingofdrugs,gadgets,onunwittingsubjectsinanyy
safehouse
Dr.Lashbrook.WithMorganHall?^
SenatorKennedy.Yes.|
Dr.Lashbrook.No.
SenatorKennedy.Oranyoneelse?
Dr.Lashbrook.Notwithanydetail.|
SenatorKennedy.Doyouknowinasummaryway,inageneralU
way?
Dr.Lashbrook.Secondhand,itwouldhavetobeverysecondhand.pi
SenatorKennedy.Secondhandfromwhom?jj
Dr.Lashbrook.Variouspeoplewhowereinvolved.
SenatorKennedy.FromMr.Gottlieb?

Dr.Lashbrook.Possibly.AtthispointintimeIcouldnotpin|
downwho.Infact,itisverydifficultformetoidentifyexactlywhat^
Ididknow,orwhatIdidnotknow,exceptthatindetailIdidnot
know.;|
SenatorKennedy.YouweretheDeputyDirectoroftheproject?|J
Dr.Lashbrook.Right.
SenatorKennedy.Didyouknowwhatwasgoingonintheprojects?
Dr.Lashbrook.Onlyonthebroadestofdetails.Iwasnotonly
DeputyChiefoftheDivision,butmyprimarydutywasactuallyasa
sortofprojectofficer,inwhichIwouldhaveanywherefrom12to,say.
20projectsofmyown,whichIpersonallywasresponsiblefor,and
almostallofthesewerecompletelyoutsidetheareathatyouare
interestedin.
So,myownpersonalinvolvement,myownpersonaldetailedknowl
edgeofprojectswithMorganHallwasquiteminimal.Theremightbe
&timewhenIwas

114
SenatorKennedy.Whatdidyouknow.Whydoyounottellus
whatyouknew,ingeneralterms,fromwhateversources?
^Dr.Lashbrook.IknewthatMorganHallsetupasafehousein
NewYork.Thatthepurposewassomehoworothertoutilizethesafe
house.
SenatorKennedy.Forwhat?

Dr.Lashbrook.Interrogating,ortalkingtohisinformants.He
wasinterestedinusingdrugsofsometypeinthisprocess.AndIthink
thatisallIreallycouldsayspecificallyonwhatMorganHallhadin
mind.ItwasmostlyMorganHallproposingtotheAgencythathedo
this.
Ofcourse,hishavingasafehouse,gettingthemostinformationhe
couldfromhisinformants
SenatorKennedy.Thesesafehouseswentonforaperiodof14
years,didtheynot?
Dr.Lashbrook.Iwouldnotknowhowlong.
SenatorKennedy.Well,theywereinyourdivision,youwerethe
DeputyDirector?
Dr.Lashbrook.ButIwasnotthere14years.
SenatorKennedy.But,youwereDeputyChiefforaperiodof4
years.
Dr.Lashbrook.Perhaps.IwasawareofthesafehouseinNew
York.Infact,Ivisitedtheplaceohtwooccasions.Iwasawarethat
itwasgoingtoSanFrancisco,butthedetailsofactuallywhatwas
beingdone,thatIwasnotawareof,thatIrecall.Idonotrecall.
SenatorKennedy.Youwrotethememorandumthattalkedabout
adoorwayconstructedinawall,amonitortestingsurveillanceequip
ment,awindowconstructedinthebedroomtopermitvisualsurveil
lancetechniques.
Dr.Lashbrook.Right.
SenatorKennedy.Youwrotethatmemorandum.Youapproved

accountsformicrophones,recordingequipment,listeningaids,anda
numberofothermaterialsinthat.Youwrotethisotherdocument.
Dr.Lashbrook.Right.
SenatorKennedy.Yousignedoffontheseparticularreimburse
mentjustifications?
Dr.Lashbrook.Right.
SenatorKennedy.Butyoudonotrememberanything?
Dr.Lashbrook.Well,thatwasagenerationago,andifyouhad
askedmeIsawthoseyesterdayifyouhadaskedmewithout
showingmeanyofthosedocuments,Iwouldsayno,Idonotremember,
becauseIdonotrecallthingsinthatdetailagenerationago.
However,thefirstoneyoureferredto,Iwasshownthisyesterday,
Ireaditover,andquiteobviouslytomeitwasadocumentprepared,
becausetheauditorhaddisallowedsomeoftheclaimsthatMorgan
HallhadmadeatthetimehemovedfromNewYork.Thetitleofit,
well,IhadcontactedMorganHallioaskhimtoprovidefurther
justificationfortheitemshedisallowed.
OneitemMorganHallhasbeendisallowedwasatiptothelandlord.
IreportedthatMorganHallsaidthatthattiptothelandlordwas
becausehehadknockedaholeinthewall,andsoon.
Inotherwords,thatparticularmemorandumwasstrictlyanadminis
trativememorandumtojustify,to**tempttohelpMorganHall
justifyIdsexpenditures.

115

SenatorKennedy.Youwerenostrangertothewholedrugtesting
program?fl
Dr.Lashbrook.No,sir.;[J
SenatorKennedy.Wereyounotawareoftheprogramthatactually
involvedMr.Olson?^
Dr.LashrrookYes.1
SenatorKennedy.Youhaveanawarenessofdrugtestinginany^
eventoveraperiodoftime?
Dr.Lashbrook.Yes.*l
SenatorKennedy.Particularlyintheearlydays?||
Dr.Lashbrook.AllIamsayingisthisparticularoperationof
MorganHallisonethatIreallyIwasnotveryfamiliarwithat^
thattime.WhatIdidknowatthetime,1amsureIhaveforgottenill
muchofitthereweresomeotherthingsthatIampersonallymore
familiarwith.
SenatorKennedy.Doyouhaveknowledge,orhasanyoneeverfl
toldyouthatprostituteswereinvolvedinthesafehouseoperationii

runbyMorganHall?
Dr.Lashbrook.IthinkIrecallhavingbeentoldthat,yes.Ineverfj
quitefiguredhowtheyenteredinthis,butyes.y
SenatorKennedy.Ithinktherearcotherswhohave.
Dr.Lashbrook.Yes;wehaveheardsometestimonythismorning.
SenatorSchweiker.Dr.Lashbrook,didexperimentsrelatingto1
hypnosiscomeunderyourdirection?*
Dr.Lashbrook.1wasfamiliarwithsomeoftheworkthatwasdone
onhypnosis,yes.f1
SenatorSchweiker.Inanutshell,whatwasthegeneralthrustofj
thoseexperiments?Irealizedrugsandhypnosiswereusedtogether
insomeofthem.Whatwastheobjectiveorpurposeofthatseriesof*,
eightsubprojects?1
Dr.Lashbrook.Therewere,ofcourse,claims,orthoughtsthatiiS
maybegreatthingscouldbedonewithhypnosis.Therewasverylittle
thatcouldbepinneddownastowhatcouldorcouldnotbedoneby1
thistechnique.SotheonlyprojectthatIrecallonthiswasaveryiJ
smallproject,onesmallproject,inwhichwehadahynotistdosome
experimentsprimarilytoseewhatthelimitationsofhypnosismightm
be,whatcouldorcouldnotbedonewithhypnosis.||

Wearetryingtogetsomekindofanswerastowell,canyoumake
apersondosomethingunderhypnosisthathewouldnotordinarilyrr
doagainsthiswill.i]
SenatorSchweiker.Canyou?~*
Dr.Lashbrook.1thinkourconclusionwasthatthiscapability
isverylimited.fl
SenatorSchweiker.Whataboutprojectsrelatingtomotivationaly
studies?InhisAugust3testimony,CIADirectorTurnerlisteds
category7,"motivationstudies,studiesofdefectors,assessmentamipa
trainingtechniques".Whatwouldthese23projectsentail?||
Dr.Lashbrook.Assessmentwouldcomemostlyunderpsychology,'
IthinkyouprobablvcoveredthatitisanareathatIwouldnot
haveanygreatfamiliaritywith.
Inotherwords,Icouldnotgive,indetail
SenatorSchweiker.Whatwerewelookingforinstudieson
defectors?
Dr.Lashbrook.Idonotreallvknow.Idonotrecall.

%'''116

SenatorSchweiker.Youdonotrecallanyofthoseprojects.Did
inotanyofthemcomeunderyour
1Dr.Lashbrook.NotthatIrecall.
SenatorSchweiker.Howabouttrainingtechniques?
Dr.Lashbrook.Trainingforwhat?
|SenatorSchweiker.Idonotknow.AdmiralTurnerjustsimply
listedmotivationalstudies,studiesofdefectors,assessment,andtrain
,.,*ingtechniques23subprojectsinallaspartofMKULTRA.
Dr.Lashbrook.Thatsoundslikesomethingthatwouldcomemore
underthecategoryofpsychology.
SenatorSchweiker.Trainingforwhat?
Dr.Lashbrook.ThatiswhatIwonder.Idonotknow.Idonot
knowofanygoodanswertothatquestion.
SenatorSchweiker.WasExecutiveactioninthiscategoryatall?
Dr.Lashbrook.Executiveaction?
Thatterm,Ithink,wouldperhapshavebeencoveredprettywell
intheprevioustestimony
SenatorSchweiker.Iknowitwascoveredratherthoroughlywhen
ourformerIntelligenceCommitteelookedintoit,butmyquestion
hereis,didanytrainingfor
Dr.Lashbrook.Training?
ISenatorSchweiker.TrainingforExecutiveaction,wasthat
includedinanyofthesemotivationalstudies?

Dr.Lashbrook.NotthatIamawareof.NotthatIcanrecall,no.
SenatorSchweiker.SothattheExecutiveactionconcept,political
assassination,wasnotinanywayinvolvedinmotivationaltraining
studiesunderanyofthesecategoriesinMKULTRA,isthatwhat
youaresaying?Thatisaprettycategoricalstatement.
Dr.Lashbrook.OK.Repeatthequestion.
SenatorSchweiker.WeknowwhatourIntelligenceCornmittee
foundthatExecutiveactionwas,assassinationofforeignpolitical
leaders.
Dr.Lashbrook.MaybeIshouldhaveaskedyoutodefinethe
meaningofthatterm.
SenatorSchweiker.Now,somestudiesunderMKULTRAwere
K'lmotivationalstudies,includingassessmentandtrainingtechniques.
ig|Myquestiontoyouis,didanyofthe23subprojectsBstedinthat
categorybytheDirectorinvolveanythingrelatedtomotivation
,forExecutiveaction?
Dr.Lashbrook.ByExecutiveaction,youmeanassassination
SenatorSchweiker.Assassination,plotsagainstpoliticalleaders.
Dr.Lashbrook.OK.No,nonethatIamawareof.
jSenatorSchweiker.Nonethatyouareawareof?

'MDr.Lashbrook.Iamnotawareofany.
SenatorSchweiker.Areyouawareofallthe23subprojectscate
gorizedinAdmiralTurner'sstatement?
]Dr.Lashbrook.Idoubtit.Ihavenotrunthroughall23ofthem.
SenatorSchweiker.Soyouarenotexcludingthepossibility?
Youarejustsayingthat,asfarasyouareaware,noneofthesub
projectsrelatedtothis?
^Dr.Lashbrook.Right.
SenatorSchweiker.Allright.Thatisall.
SenatorKennedy.Mr.Siragusa,whatagencyoftheFederal
Governmentdoyouworkforandwhatpositiondidyouhold?

117

Mr.Siragusa.IwaswithImmigrationandNaturalizationService
for4yearsasaclerkstenographer,withtheU.S.BureauofNarcoticsI
from1935to1963.J

SenatorKennedy.Thenyouretiredin1963?
Mr.Siragusa.1963,Iretired.
SenatorKennedy.YouwereAssistantDeputyCommissionerof
theBureauofNarcotics?
Mr.Siragusa.LaterIwasDeputyCommissioner.
SenatorKennedy.DeputyCommissioner.
CouldyoutelluswhoCalSalernowas?
Mr.Siragusa.Thatwasmycovername.
SenatorKennedy.Salernowasanaliasforyou,andyoubecame
anagentforCIA,didyounot?
Mr.Siragupa.IwasnotanagentforCIA.Iwasliaisonwith
CIA.Ineverworkedforthem.
SenatorKennedy.Youwereliaison?
Mr.Siragusa.Liaison,inmycapacitywiththeBureauof
Narcotics.
SenatorKennedy.WhogaveyouCalSalerno?
Mr.Siragusa.IhadusedthenameCalSalernoyearsbefore,from
1950to1958whenIworkedoverseasfortheBureauofNarcotics.I
pioneeredtheirforeignoperations.AtthattimeIdidundercoverwork,
andIusedthenameofCalSalerno.Ijustcarriedonwiththatname
lateron.
SenatorKennedy.OK.

CouldyoutelluswhatyouhadtodowiththesafehouseinNew
York?
Mr.Siragusa.Alongabout1959,whichwasayearafterIreturned
toWashingtonfromEurope,amongmymanyotherdutiesinthe
Bureau,IwasappointedunofficiallyasliaisonwithCIA.Iwasalso
liaisonwiththeHillinvariousothercapacities.
Mr.An&lingeronedayintroducedmetoDr.RayTreichlerofthe
CIA,averybriefintroduction,averybriefconversation.Iwasasked
byMr.AnslingertotakeDr.Treichlerbacktomyownoffice.Dr.
Treichlergaveustheideaofsettinguptheoperationalapartment.
SenatorKennedy.TheCIAgaveyoutheidea,isthatright?
Mr.Siragusa.Yes,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Whathappened?
Mr.Siragusa.Wesetupthisapartmenton13thStreetoffof
SixthAvenue,andtheunderstandingwasthatweweretousethis
apartmentforourownpurposes.Thatis,myofficeinNewYork
Citywouldusetheapartmenttointerviewinformants,todebrief
informants,toworkundercoveroperations.
ThenwhenevertheCIAwishedtousetheapartmentitself,they
wouldnotifyustostayawayfromtheapartment.Dr.Treichlerwas
mycontactman.Healsofurnishedmewiththemoney.Wehadan
unfurnishedapartment.Hegaveusthemoneywithwhichtobuy
thefurniture.
SenatorKennedy.Didyoueverhaveanyideaofwhatwasgoing
oninthesafehouses?
Mr.Siragusa.No;Iknowitwasbeingusedforsomeintelligence

purposes.Oneofmyfirstguesseswasperhapsitwasbeingusedto
uncoverdefectorsintheirownorganization.

118
IfyouareaskingmeifIeverkneworsuspecteditwasbeingused
fordrugtestingpurposes,myanswerwouldbeno,Ineverknewthat.
Infact,hadIknownthat,hadIevensuspectedthat,twouldhave
disassociatedmyselfwiththatoperation.
SenatorKennedy.Whywouldyouhave?
Mr.Siragtjsa.Iwassurprisedtolearnfromnewsaccountabout
2yearsagothattheCIAwastestingdrugsonunsuspectingwitnesses;
thatiscontrarytomypersonalbeliefs.
SenatorKennedy.Didtheyaskyoutosetupasafehousein
Chicago?
Mr.Siragtjsa.No,sir,Idonotrecallthat.Iwasaskedthatbyone
ofyourinvestigators.Idonotrecalltheyeveraskedme.
In1963,whenIretiredfromtheBureauofNarcotics,Ididsofor
thepurposeofassumingapositionofExecutiveDirectorofthe
IllinoisCrimeInvestigatingCommissioninChicago,whichlater
becameknownastheIllinoisLegislativeInvestigatingCommission.
IdonotrecallthatDr.Treichleroranyoneelseeversuggestedthat
wesetupanapartmentinChicago.Hadthesuggestionbeenmadeto
me,IwouldhaveautomaticallyturneditdownbecauseIhadallI
coulddotohandlemynewdutiesinChicago.
SenatorKennedy.TheynevercontactedyouinChicago?

Mr.Sikagtjsa.Dr.TreichlervisitedChicago.Infact,afterheleft
theCIA,hetookapositionwithachemicalmanufacturingcompany
inChicago,andseveraltimeshecontactedmeinChicago.They
weresocialvisits.
SenatorKennedy.Nothingtodowiththeagency?
Mr.Sikagtjsa.No,sir.
SenatorKennedy.WhywouldahighrankingofficialoftheBureau
ofNarcoticsbewillingtoplaytheroleofadministrativeagent,paying
rentandkeepingtheFacility,andhavingnosubstantivecontactwhat
everwiththeideaoftheprojectandknowledgeofhowthatproject
wascarriedout?
Mr.Siragtjsa.MycontactwiththeCIAwasratherremote.The
operationoftheapartmentwasunderthecontroloftheDistrict
SupervisorinNewYorkCity.Hehandledallofthat.Iremainedin
Washington.Ihadverylittletodowiththedaytodayfunctionof
thatapartment.
SenatorKennedy.IntherecordoftheMKULTRASubproject
132,thisisMarch1964,itstatesthefollowing:
ThisprojectisconductedbyMr.CalSalerno.Mr.Salerno,apublicrelations
consultant,hasrecentlymovedhisofficesfromNewYorkCitytoChicago,111.
Air.Salernoholdsatopsecretagencyclearanceandiscompletelywittingofthe
aimsandgoalsoftheproject.Hepossessesuniquefacilitiesandpersonalabilities
whichhavemadehiminvaluabletothiskindofoperation.
Mr.Siragtjsa.Therehasbeensomepoeticlicensetakenwiththe
truth.IlefttheBureauofNarcoticsinNovember1963.Ionlyjust
learnedthatthenameofCalSalernowasadoptedbyothersthat
succeededme.IhadnothingtodowithCIAduringtheperiodoftime
thatIwasinChicago.
SenatorKennedy.Well,thedescriptionofyoutheniscompletely

inaccurateasbeing
Mr.Siragusa.Yes.IwasnotaconsultantfortheCIA.Inever
hadanyofficialcapacitywithCIAinanywaywhatsoever.

119

31

''I
SenatorKennedy,louwerenot,wouldyousay,completely
wittingfromtheaimsandgoalsoftheproject?fi
Mr.Siragusa.Iknewnothingabouttheproject.j
SenatorKennedy.Thenthisreportisinaccurate?
Mr.Siragusa.Itis..
SenatorKennedy.Wehaveheardfromothersasamatterof
fact,fromeachwitnesshere,howthememorandahavebeenin
accurate.Iamjusttryingtofindoutwhatthesituationis.
Doyouhaveanyideawhytheyweretryingtoputthemonkey%
onyourback?||

Mr.Siragusa.Idonotknowthattheyparticularlyputthemonkey
onmyback.BecauseinWashingtoninmyerafrom1958to1963,the^
entirebureaucracyoftheBureauofNarcotics,consistedoffolirfj
men.Iwasoneofthem,andwhichbureaucracyhashowbeenre*"
placedbysome200men.ThisisbywayofexplainingthefactthatI
hadmanydutiesthatIhadtoassumewithoutbenefitofanyofficial%
appointments.Iwasliaisonwiththemedia,withCIA,withconm
gressionalcommittees,withindividualCongressmen.Ihadalltodo
justtokeepmysanity.f|
SenatorKennedy.ButintheCIAfilestheyhave,thememoranda;i|
thatyouwerecompletelywitting,knowledgeableaboutthesepro
grams,theaimsandgoals
Mr.Siragusa.Thatisnotso.Thatisentirelyinaccurate.ItisJl
untrue.&J
SenatorKennedy.Mr.Belk,whatagencyoftheGovernmentwere
youwith?Wherewereyoustationed?"I
Mr.Belk.IwaswiththeFederalBureauofNarcoticsstartedij
Aviththatagencyin1948.IassumedthepositionofSupervisorin
NewYorkCityofficeinApril1963.PriortogoingtoNewYork,<~
intheearlypartofApril1963,IhadameetingwithCommissionerJ
Giradonoatthattime,andheinformedmeIwasgoingtoNew^
YorkasSupervisorinCharge.Andduringthatconversationhealluded

tothefactthattheagency,thatistheBureau,hadanapartment
theywereresponsibleforinNewYork.Itwasnationalsecurity
endeavorincollaborationwiththeCIA,andthathewouldwishme
tocontinuethatproject.AndthattherewasanagentintheNew
Yorkofficeatthattime,amanbythenameofJohnTagley,whowas||
familiarwithitandcouldgivememuchofthedetail.
WhenIarrivedinNewYorkCity,ItookovertheofficefromMr.
JohnEnright,whoIbelievewasawareofthefactthattheapartmenttl
existed.*i
IcertainlygotabriefingfromMr.Tagleyonwheretheplacewas
andwhatitdidlooklike.Iwastoldwecanusetheapartmentforfl
operations,andthatwhentheCIAwasgoingtousetheplace,thatwey|
wouldbenotifiedinadvancethattheywere,andthatwewouldstay
offthepremises.F
SenatorKennedy.Whatknowledgedidyouhaveaboutwhatwas||
goingoninsidethesafehouse?
Mr.Belk.IntermsoftheCIAusingthesafehouse?
SenatorKennedy.Yes.f\
Mr.Belk.Ihadnoknowledgeatallofwhattheyweredoingthere.d
Iknowweuseditonacoupleofsmalloperations.Infact,asIrecall,
in1964IrecommendedtotheCommissionerthatweclosetheplace{I

3sita

120
andgetoutbecauseIdidnotthinkthecostofitwasjustified,what
we,thatistheBureau,wasgettingoutofit.
SenatorKennedy.Didyouhaveanyqualmsaboutpayingallthe
billsforaprojectyouknewnothingabout?
Mr.Belk.No.Itwasanassignment.Itwasanationalsecurity
thing.Wewerehelpinganotheragencyandpayingbills.
ButintermsoftheBureau'suseofthatplace,Ididnotthinkit
wasjustified.Ididnotknowwhattheyweredoingthereandhow
frequentlytheyusedit,andIwantedtogetoutfromunderit.
SenatorKennedy.Youroriginalworkfortheagency,Mr.Belk,
waspartofMKULTRA,isthatright?
Mr.Belk.Ididnotevenknowwhatthatwas.Neverheardofit
beforeuntilthelastcoupleofdays.
SenatorKennedy.Wehavedocuments,memorandafromthe
agencyitselfthathavereferencestoyourinvolvement,notdissimilar
tothekindofcharacterizationofMr.Siragusa'sinvolvement.ButI
understandfromwhatyousaidherethatyouwoulddenythatcate
gorically,isthatcorrect?
Mr.Belk.Iwoulddostrongerthanthat.Itisalie.

SenatorKennedy.OK.
Mr.Feldman,wearegoingtorecessthehearinguntiltomorrow
andhearyourtestimony.Wearegoingtohavetostartat8o'clock
tomorrowmorningtoaccommodateAdmiralTurner.
IwanttothankallofyouMr.BelkandMr.Siragusaparticularly.
Ithinkweareverymindfuloftheveryextraordinaryworkthatyou
havebeeninvolvedinfortheBureau.Ijustwantyoutohaveavery
clearunderstandingthatmyinterestinthisishowtheAgencyhas
useddifferentagenciesand,inmanyinstanceswithouttheknowledge
ofthosepeoplebeingused.WehaveseenitintheNationalInstitutes
ofHealth,andwesawreferencetoitintermsofIRS,andithas
absolutelynoreflection,ofwhatIunderstandfrommyreadingof
yourrecordsintheBureauofNarcotics,onyourverycommendable
careers.
Iwantyoutounderstandthat,andwhatthepurposeofthispartic
ularareaofinquiryis,becausethisinvolvesyourcareerpeople,and
Iknowthatyourcareermeansalotandthatyourservicemeansajot,
andthereshouldnotbeanythingthatreflectsonthatcontribution.
So,thankyouverymuch.
Wewillresumeat8o'clockwithAdmiralTurnerinroom2228.
[Whereupon,at12:20p.m.,thesubcommitteerecessed,torecon
veneat8a.m.,Wednesday,September21,1977.]

HUMANDRUGTESTINGBYTHECIA,1977|
WEDNESDAY,SEPTEMBER21,1977fj

U.S.Senate,
SubcommitteeonHealthandScientificResearch||
oftheCommitteeonHumanResources,fj
Washington,D.C.
Thesubcommitteemet,pursuanttonotice,at8:05a.m.,inroomn
2228,DirksenSenateOfficeBuilding,SenatorEdwardM.Kennedyjj
(chairmanofthesubcommittee)presiding.
Present:SenatorsKennedy,Schweiker,andChafee.
SenatorKennedy.Wewillcometoorder.Wewelcomeasourfirst!|
witnessthismorningAdmiralTurner,whoistheDirectorofthe**
CentralIntelligenceAgency,andhisassociates.Weappreciatehis
presenceheretodaytorespondtothecommittee'sareasofconcern,fg
andImightjust,attheoutset,mentiontheparticularareasthatwe||
areconcernedwith.
WehavereceivedadditionalmaterialsfromtheAgencysinceour^
lasthearing,andwewanttoknowwhattheprocesswasforfindingff
those.Itseemsthatitisaneverendingprocessoffindingnewmaterial.&*
Weheardagreatdealyesterdayfromanumberoftheformeragents
oftheAgencythatquestionedtheaccuracyofdocumentsand!|
memorandawithintheAgency.Theytalkedabouttwosetsoffiles.(I

Theytalkedaboutboilerplatelanguage;summariesthatwerenot
revealing,exceptwiththosethathadsomeveryspecialinsight.Wet|
wanttohearfromtheDirectoraboutthatobservationthatwas;|
madebyanumberoftheformeragents."
Wewanttohearabouttheappropriatenessoftherelationship
betweentheCentralIntelligenceAgencyandtheotheragenciesofIf
Government,aswellasprivateinstitutions;whatdoestheDirectorSI
believeistheappropriaterelationshipbetweentheAgencyanduni
versities,andwhatistheappropriaterelationshipbetweenthefl
AgencyandotheragenciestheBureauofNarcotics,theNIH,the|j
IRS,andothersandhowwillthatbedeveloped,howitisviewedat
thepresenttime,andwhatcommenttheDirectormightsayabout
that,intermsofthepast.;|
Iamabsolutelyconvincedthatifwehadthosematerials,thatwere^
inexistencein1975,whichwerereferredtowithintheAgencyin
thiswholeareaofexperimentation,thiscommittee,asfarasour
interest,wouldhavewoundupitsareaofinquiryalongtimeago.
AndIsupposethemostimportantareathatweareinterestedin
hearingfromtheDirector,isthedisparityofresponsibilitybetween
theAgencyandtheDepartmentofDefense;theareasofMKSEARCH
andMKULTRA,andMKCHICKWIT.Weknowthataspectsof
thebehavioralresearchstartedintheearly1950'sandcontinued,
tooneextentoranother,through1973.
(121)

Vr\

122
Thevariousprojectswereturnedonandturnedoffinanever,
endingweb,atleastforthat20yearperiodoftime,especiallythe
mostrecentonesfromthelate1960'stotheearly1970's,thefollow
ups,inMKSEARCH,inMKULTRA,andinMKCHICKWIT.
Inthecourseofourhearing,weaskedtheDirector,specifically
andIamreadingfromtherecordinaquestionbymyself:"Inthe
followups,intheMksearch,andtheMkultra,andMkchickwit,could
yougiveus,also,areportonthoseparticularprograms?"Admiral/
Turnersaid,"Yes,sir."
"Didtheyinvolveexperimentation?"TheAdmiralindicated,"No,
sir."SenatorKennedy:"Noneofthem?"Andthen,AdmiralTurner
said."Letmesaythis:Thattheseprogramsarecodenamesforthe
CIAparticipationinwhatwasbasicallyaDepartmentofDefense
program."
So,weinquiredfromtheDepartmentofDefenseabouttheir
knowledgeandunderstantingoftheseprograms,andforacomplete
report.Lastevening,wereceivedthecorrespondencefromtheGeneral
Counsel'sOfficefromtheDepartmentofDefense,andwewillmake
theletterapartoftherecord.
[Theinformationreferedtomaybefoundonp.157.]

SenatorKennedy.IntheletterandIwillreadjusttherelevant
parts:
Ihaveenclosedacopyofmemorandaandcopiesofthedocumentsretrievedby
theDOD.ItappearsfromtheavailabledocumentsthattheprojectsMksearch,
Mkorphan,andMkchickwitweredirected,controlled,fundedbytheCentral
IntelligenceAgency,andmuchoftheparticipationofthemilitarydepartments
wassolelyasaconduitoffundsfromtheCentralIntelligenceAgencytooutside
contractors.
Andthen,intheoperativememorandafortheSecretaryofDefense,
preparedwithinDOD,onpage2,itcontinues:
ItappearsfromthedocumentthatthesethreecodewordprojectsoftheCentral
IntelligenceAgency,identifiedbytheDirectorinhistestimonyasbasically
DepartmentofDefenseprojects,were,infact,planned,directed,andcontrolled
bytheCentralintelligenceAgency,
andthenitcontinues:
Eachoftheprojectsaredescribedbelow.
So,whatwehaveis,inthefollowupprogramsthattookplaceover
theperiodofyearsthatbroughtusintothemorerecentperiod,from
1973,wehavetherealquestionsofaccountability,andwhoisdirect
ing,whohascontrol,whohasreviewresponsibility,andwhatkindof
oversightisbeingexercisedonthisparticularprogram.Then,we
haveboththeapparentanddirectconflictfromthetwoagenciesthat
wereinvolvedinthisprogramastotheresponsibleagency.Weare
lookingforwardtoclearingthatparticularissueupthismorning.
Andtodothat,havingthetestimonyoftheDirectorontheseareas
willobviouslybeextremelyimportantandwillbeextremelyhelpful.
Wehopethatwecanresolvethoseparticularquestionswithadegree
offinalitytoday,sothatwemaygobacktoourotherlegislative
responsibilities.

Finally,Iwouldjustliketosay,afterwehearfromAdmiralTurner,
ournextwitness,Dr.Gottlieb,who,attherequestofDr.Gottlieband
hisattorney,formedicalreasons,hasrequestedthathebepermitted
totestifyinalesscrowdedroom.Histestimonywillobviouslybemade
publicandwillbepipedliveintothisroom.Hehasamedicalcondition

123
whichwehaveverified,independently,andwewillfollowthat
procedure.Itisanunusualrequest,butobviouslyweareinterestedin
gettinghistestimony,andwearealsointerestedinhiswellbeingand
hishealth.So,wewillhavethemeetinginthenextroomwithhim,
anditwillbepipedliveinhereafterAdmiralTurner.
SenatorChafee.Iwouldjustliketosay,Mr.Chairman,thatI,
personally,wanttoextendourthanks,andIbelieveIspeakforthe
committee,toAdmiralTurnerforallhehasdoneindiggingoutthis
material.IamonanothercommitteewhereAdmiralTurneroften
appearsbeforeus,andIthinkitismarvelousthewayAdmiralTurner
isabletoappearatdifferentcommittees.Ihopesometimeisleftover
forhimtoruntheAgency,becausethedemandsoftheCongressupon
histimearecertainlystrenuous.
And,ofcourse,asyouallknow,themattersweareinvestigating
happenedlongbeforehiswatch.Wearediggingupmaterialabout
activitiesthattookplacemanyyearsagoand,Mr.Chairman,Ithink
youagreewithmethatwehavetogetonwithitandgetthesehearings
completedsoAdmiralTurnercandevotehistimetomattersof
pressingimportancetothiscountryatthispoint.
SenatorKennedy.Fine.Well,astheSenatorfromRhodeIsland
understands,thelasthumantestingthattookplacewasin1973.So,
itwasovera21yearperiod,andIdonotknowhowmanytimeswe

havebeentoldthatthevariourprogramswereturnedoff,justto
springupagain.Wearetoldthatinthemostrecenttestsbythe
Agency,itself,thattheywereconductedbyDOD;andDOD,intheir
testimonyheretoday,spythatthetestswereconductedbythe
Agency.
Iamveryhopefulthatwecanresolvethesequestions.Ithinkthat
theextraordinaryfactisthatthesemattershavecometolight.Inno
othercountrywouldtheyhavecometolight.AndIdonotquestion
thattherearemanyotherthingsthathavebeendoneinothernations
thatneverwouldbeknown,butwedoknow,andweareinterested
intheprotectionofhumansubjects.Wehaveeveryintention,tothe
extentthatwecanfromalegislativepointofview,tosupportwhat
isthestatementofAdmiralTurner,andthatisthatheiscommitted
totheprotectionofthesehumansubjects.Hehascommented,onand
testifiedtothatinthepast.
AdmiralTurner,wewouldbegladtohearfromyou.
STATEMENTOFADM.STANSFEELDTURNER,DIRECTOR,CENTRAL
INTELLIGENCEAGENCY,ACCOMPANIEDBYHARRYE.GORDON,
OFFICEOFRESEARCHANDDEVELOPMENT;RAYREARDON,OF
FICEOFSECURITY;FRANKLAUBLNGER,OFFICEOFTECHNICAL
SERVICES;ALANBRODY,OFFICEOFINSPECTORGENERAL;AND
LYLEL.MILLER,ACTINGLEGISLATIVECOUNSEL
AdmiralTurner.Thankyou,Mr.Chairman.Thankyou,Senator
Chafee,foryourremarksIappreciatethefactthatboththechairman
andSenatorChafeehaveremindedusthattheactivitiesaboutwhich
wearetalkingtodayarepartofthehistory,notthecurrentactivities,
oftheCIA.

124
AndifImightmakeonepoint,whiletheremayhavebeendrug
testingaslateas1973,wehavenoevidenceofunwittingtestingof
drugsonhumanbeingspasttheperiodofabout1964.So,thisisa
historicalmatter,andasIhavesaidtoyoubefore,Mr.Chairman,we
arenotdoingthiskindofthing,intermsofunwittingtestingon
humanbeingswithdrugs,atthistime,andIwillgetintothatinmore
detailinamoment.
Iwouldliketoprefacemyremarks,also,bysayingthatIfeelitis
veryunfortunatethatsomeofthemediaandothersourceshavedrawn
theinferencefromthetestimonyintherecentdaysthattheremay
havebeendeliberatewithholdingofmaterialbytheCIA,eitherin
1975orasrecentlyasJulyandAugustofthisyear,andIcategorically
denythatforthisyear,becauseIwashereandIknowthatitdidnot
happen.Ihavenoreasontobelievethatithappenedin1975,andT
wouldpointoutthatwevolunteeredtheinformationinJulyof1977.
Ifithadbeendeliberatelywithheld,Isupposeitwouldhavecontinued
tohavebeenwithheld.
WediddiscovermorematerialinAugust,afterourinitialvoluntary
revelationsinJulyand,clearly,wedidthatvoluntarily,also,not
becausewewerewithholdingitinJulyandsuddenlydecidedtorelease
itinAugust.IpledgetoyouthatIhavemadeeveryeffort,andmy
staffhas,too,tobeasforthcomingwithyouandyourstaffaspossible
hereinprovidinginformation.
Ratherthanreadapreparedstatement,Mr.Chairman,letmejust
addressyourfourpointsofconcernandmoveonwiththemasquickly

asIcan.Howhavewecometothisprocessoffindingtheadditional
materials?Well,wecamebecauseonthe3dofAugust,youaskedme,
andIpromised,tofindandfurnishanymaterialswehadon
MKSEARCHandonOFTEN/CHICKWIT,aswellasprovidingvou
someadditionaldetailsonsafehousesinSanFranciscoandNewYork
thatwereengagedinMKULTRA,whichwasthesubjectofourpre
vioustestimonyonthe3dofAugust.
Weprovidedtheinformationonthe1stofSeptemberabout
MKULTRA.Immediatelyuponreturningfromtheprevioustesti
mony,westartedreviewingwhatlimitedmaterialwehadonMK
SEARCH,andtryingtoseewheretheremightbemore.Ifyouwill
recall,theULTRAdocumentswerefoundinourarchives,located
outsideofWashington,D.C.However,wehadcheckedpreviously
andfoundthattherewerenoMKSEARCHmaterialsinthosearchives
underthefinancialfilings,whichistherewefoundtheMKULTRA
material.
Thegentlemanonmyleft,whohadfoundtheMKULTRAmate
rials,thendidaverydiligentjobofSherlockHolmesingandsaidto
himself:
Iftheywerefoundunderfinancialfilingsinthearchives,perhapsTshould
checkallthefinancialholdingsofthatareaoftheAgencyinourLangleyhead
quarters.
Hedidso.andonAugust15,cameupwithadditionalmaterials
onMKSEARCH,aswellas12extrafilesonresearchgrants,which
arenottechnicallypartofMKSEARCH,butrelatedtoit.
Mr.Chairman,theprocessoffindingmaterialsthatareferretted
awayinthesefilesattheheadquarters,inthesefilesatthearchives;,
isnoteasy,andthereisnowayIcanlookyouintheeyetodayami
saytherewillnotbesomemoreturnupthisafternoon.Icanonly

125fj
assureyouwehavenothingmoreonthesesubjectsknowntousat
thistime,andIampleasedatthediligenceofourpeopleinlooking;p
andIampleasedthateachtimesomethingdoesturnup,itimmedij
atelycomesfonvardandwemakeitknowntoyou.
Next,youaskedabouttheaccuracyinsomeoftheallegations
SenatorKennedy.MaybeIcouldjustrefertothisingreaterf|
detail.Ourcommitteebeganitsinquiryin1975.Itisapparentfromjj
someofthedocumentsreleasedtouslastweek,thatdocumentswere
availablethatcouldhavebeenhelpfultousin1975.Oneofthe|
documentswasmadeavailabletotheChurchcommitteeatthatJ
time,butnottoourcommitteeuntilrecently,andIamreferringto
thememorandafortheIGonSubproject3ofMKULTRA,dated
February10,1954,whichdescribestheprojectinvolvingthetesting
ofdrugsonunwittingpersons,theuseofelectronicandphotographic
equipment,theliaison.withanarcoticsagentbythenameofMorgan
Hall;thenamesofthedrugsheadministered.Thelastlistoffour
drugswouldhavebeenusefulin1975.
Inthematerialprovidedseveralweeksago,wenoticedabuck
slipthatwasfoundin1975,anditwashandwrittenin1975,anditsays,
Theattachedpackageshouldbeofinteresttovouinconnectionwiththe
relationswithBNDDregardingarrangementsonEastandWestCoasts;see,
particularly,theJanuary30,1967,Gottliebmemo.

So,thiswasobviouslyobtainedinpreparationforourhearingin
1975.TherewasaGottliebmemorandumwhichstillwasnotincluded
inthepackagegiventous.Wecertainlydidnothaveitbackin1975,
andtherewereothermemosfromAugust25,1975,indicatingthat
therehadbeeninquiriesconcerningpossibleemploymentofIra
Feldman,andthesedocumentswerenotprovidedpriortothe
August3hearing,whenweweretryingtoputthemaximumlight
onthesesubjects.
So,Iwanttobeveryspecific.Wehavementionedthesetoyour
staffinpreparationforthesehearings,sothatyouwouldbeaware
oftheprogram.But,thosewerethereferences.Iamconvincedthat
withregardstothememorandumfromGottlieb,thatwiththat
information,wecouldhavehadallofthisreallybehindusandwe
wouldnothavetobebackhere,intermsofourparticularinterest;
Withwhatweareinterestedin,Iamsatisfied,butthosewerethe
documentsthatwereferredtoinmyopening.
Ithinktheareasinwhichwewouldbemostinterested,Admiral
andwewillincludeyourstatement,obviously,entirelyintotherec
ordIthinkisthisbasickindofconflict.Iwonderifyoucould
addressit.Youindicatedfromyourtestimonyhere,thatthefollow
onprogramsImean,wearetalkingabouttheearlyhistory,which
wasonunwitting;thelaterhistory,wasonwittingsubject.Weare
obviouslyconcernedaboutthat,aswell,intermsofthekindofinfor
mationthatisavailabletoagentsinordertomakeaninformedjudg
mentanddecisionaboutvariouskindsoftesting.
Thatis,obviously,ofgreatconcern.Wehaveseeninthepast
whereevenwittingsubjectswerenotgiventhefullkindofinforma
tionneededinordertomakeaninformedjudgment.
Now,thatparticulardocumentIamsureyouarefamiliarwith
itnowwhereyouindicatedthatthosestudies,orthosetests,or
thoseprojectswerebeingdonebyDOD,andDOD'sresponse,was
thattheywerebeingdonebytheIntelligenceAgencyandthiswas

126
asoflastevening.Imean,thisisyourAgencyandDODreviewing
thesamekindsofmaterial,andeachsayingthattheotherhadrespon
sibilityonit,andwhatwearetryingtodoistoputittorest,sowe
knowwhohadtheresponsibility,whohadtheauthority,andIam
wonderingifyoucanhelpusonthat.
AdmiralTurner.MyagencyhasfullresponsibilityforMK
SEARCH,OFTEN,andCHICKWIT,andIdonotbelievethereis
aconflictbetweenusandtheDepartmentofDefense,andIdonot
evenbelievethereisbetweenmystatementonthe3rdofAugust,but
onthe3rdofAugust,IwasheretotestifyonMKULTRA.Iknew
verylittleaboutMKSEARCH,andtheDepartmentofDefense,
Ithink,atthattimeknewless,becausethesedocumentsareincom
pleteandnoneofushadbeenreviewingthematthatpoint.
Ifindmyselfinnoconflictwiththematthistime.MESEARCH
andOFTEN/CH1CKWITwereCIAprojects.Theywerepartofa
largerenvelopewhichincludedaDepartmentofDefenseprogram,
butnotDepartmentofDefenseresponsibilityforthoseparticular
subcomponents.Apartoftheactivitiesofsomeofthosecomponents
wasfundedthroughDepartmentofDefenseagencies,and,most
specifically,theEdgewoodArsenal.
ItakefullresponsibilityforanythingdoneinSEARCH,OFTEN/
CHICKWIT.
SenatorKennedy.Wasexperimentationonhumansubjectspart
ofthatprogram?
Inyourtestimony,justearlier,therewas,obviously,theCIA
participationinwhatwasbasicallyaDODprogram,andtheDOD

indicatedthatitwasyourprogramandyouaretakingresponsibility
forthatthismorning.Theotherquestionis,didtheyinvolveexperi
mentationinhumanexperimentation,andyourresponsetothatwas,
"No,sir,"andtheydid.Theydidinvolvehumanexperimentation.
AdmiralTurner.Ihavetwoexpertsonmyleft;oneonOFTEN/
CHICKWIT,oneonSEARCH.EdGordon,wouldyoutalkabout
human
SenatorKennedy.Wouldyoujustidentifyyourself,please?
Mr.Gordon.IamEdGordon.IwilladdresstheOFTEN/CHICK
WIT.CHICKWITwas,asstatedinsomeofthematerialyouhave,
aprogramtogetforeigndrugs,informationonforeignpharmaceu
ticals,developmentsinEuropeandtheFarEast.Therewasnotesting
scheduled,andourrecordsindicatethatthereneverwasanytesting
ofanykindunderprojectCHICKWIT.
IwouldliketopointoutthatCHICKWITdoesnothavethe"MK."
Therehasbeenamisunderstanding.So,itisjustplainCHICKWIT.
SenatorKennedy.Itdoesnotsurpriseme,becausewhenwe
triedtofindoutaboutMKULTRA,itwasveryclearwhatour
interestswere;itwasandisonhumanexperimentation,and,obviously,
onunwittingexperimentation.Theseareourinterests.Wemadeall
therequestsonMKULTRAandgotaresponsethatthiswastheend
ofprojectMKULTRA.Thenwefoundthattheprojectshavechanged,
innames,toeitherMKSEARCHorMKOFTEN,orthatthecode
namehasbeendroppedonit.Wehaddifficultyingettinginformation,
becausewedidnotmaketheexactkindsofrequestsfortheinfor
mationontheseprojectssincethencodenameswerechanged.So
youseeourdifficulty.

127
TheDirectorrespondedthattherewasnohumanexperimentation
inthoseprograms.Now,Iunderstandthattherewashumanexperi
mentationinMKOFTEN.
Mr.Gobdon.InprojectOFTEN,Senator,therewashumantest
inginvolved.Tothebestofourknowledge,thatwaspartofanon
goingDODprogram.WeidentifiedasinglecompoundwhichWewere
interestedinasadefensivemechanism,becauseweknewthatforeign
intelligencepeoplewereusingit.
Webelieve,fromtheevidenceWehave,thatthoughthetesting
wasfullyintendedonthatcompound,thattheprojectwasstopped
inJanuaryof1973,beforeanyhumantestingforAgencywascon
ducted.
SenatorKennedy.Isee.So,yourpointisthattheyintendedto
testitonhumans,butactuallytheyceaseditbeforeitwastested?
Mr.Gordon.Yes,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Well,thelogofthetestsherehaveJune1973,||
aperiodoffourtests;twotests,twopeopleeach.Areyoufamiliar
withthose?
Mr.Gordon.Senator,Iamfamiliar,inthattheDefenseDepartJ

ment,intellingusthethingsthattheyhadfoundout,saidthatthereli
weretwotestsinJuneof1973ontwomilitaryvolunteers,andinthe
draftthatIreceivedonthat,itsaidthatitwaswhollysponsored=j
andfundedbyArmyresearchanddevelopment.Wehavenoresults.:]
SenatorKennedy.Yes,butyoujustsaidtherewasnothuman
testing,before,asIunderstoodthe^
Mr.Gordon.Sir,IsaidunderAgencysponsorship.I
SenatorKennedy.Oh,underAgency.TnethingIamconfused*
aboutisthatwehavetherecordsoftestingofthosefour;twotests
oftwoindividualseach.Yousaythattherewasnotanytesting,asf|
farastheAgencyisconcerned.TheAdmiralassumedcompleteJ
responsibilityforthetotalityoftheseprograms,just4minutesago.
And,now,wehavetheDODstatementtheircommentssaying?
thatthesemattersweredirected,controlled,andfundedbythej
IntelligenceAgency,andthattheyweretheconduitoffunds.Now,
Iamjusttryingtopieceittogetherhere.m
Mr.Gordon.Sir,Icanunderstandtheconfusion.Icanonly]
againsaythatIwasawareofonlyoneofthosetestsinJuneof1973
thatIwasgiventounderstandweretwo,andthattheyweredone
bytheDepartmentofDefenseunderArmy'sresearchanddevelop
ment.Assuch,theywouldnothavebeenpartoftheAgency'spro
jectOFTEN.

SenatorKennedy.Now,inoneoftheCIAdocumentsondrug
researchyouindicateAgencysupportfortheclinicaltestingand1
collectionofinformationon,andsamplesof,foreigndrugdevelop
ments,whichterminatedinJanuary.Becauseofprolongedafter
effects,additionalchargestothecontractweremadeafterthisdate1
forthenecessaryposttestfollowupobservationandexaminationsIJ
ofthevolunteer.
Mr.Gordon.Yes,sir.rl
SenatorKennedy.Thereisavolunteer.[J
Mr.Gordon.Iacknowledgethereisconflict,butIcannotexplain
that.Wehavenothinginourrecordsthatindicatesthattherewas;,
thekindoftestingthatwewereinterestedin,orCIAsponsored|J

128
testing.Wedoknowthattherehadbeentestingonthisparticular
compoundpriortoAgency'ssaving,"Canyoutestitforusinthis
fashion?"Weaskedforaspecifickindofapplication.
SenatorKennedy.Well,thisisyourdocument,notDOD'sdocu
ment.
Mr.Gordon.Yes,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Ittalksaboutafollowuponthevolunteer,
andyourtestimonyisthattherewasnohumantesting?
Mr.Gordon.Wehavenothingbeyondthatinformation.

SenatorKennedy.And,yet,thedocumentsthatwereprovided
forus,againstsomebackgroundyesterday,whereweheardfromother
agentswhotalkedaboutthevalueofthefilesthatarekeptbythe
Agency,seemstoindicateotherwise.Imean,ifyouareconfused,
youcanimaginehowweareonthis.
Mr.Gordon.Yes,sir,Icertainlycan.
AdmiralTurner.MayIinterrupt,sir?
SenatorKennedy.Yes.
AdmirelTurner.Iwanttomakeitperfectlyclear,SenatorKen
nedy,wearenotprofessingtotellyouthecompletestoryofthese
activities.Weareprofessingtotellyouthecompletestorythatwe
know.Theserecordsthatwehaveuncoveredarefinancialrecords.
Theydonottellthestory;theytellpiecesofit.
SenatorKennedy.Thething,though,AdmiralTurner,having
trackedthisthebestthatwecouldfromtheoriginsoftheprogram,
wearenowupto1973.Therearepeoplearoundwhowereinvolved
inthatprogram.Indealingwiththeearlypartofthe1950's,itisa
littlemoredifficultbecausethepeoplewhowereinvolvedinthose
programsaredeceased,andwecanunderstandthat.
But,now,wearetalkingaboutthepeoplewhowereinvolvedinit
in1973andwehavedirectconflictingtestimonyonthenatureofthis
program,bothfromtheCentralIntelligenceAgencyandtheDepart
mentofDefense.Now,isthatnotthecaseintermsofthematerial
thatweshowedyouinpreparationforthishearing?TheDepartment
ofDefenseisinbasicconflictwithwhatyouaretellingus,interms
ofthenatureoftheprogram?Andwehavejustseenanexampleof
that,intermsofmyquestionshere.
Now,doyouunderstandthat;thatthereisadilemmathatweare

confrontedwithatthepresenttime?
AdmiralTurner.Idonotsenseagreatsenseofconflictbetween
usandtheDepartmentofDefense.
SenatorKennedy.Well,willyouexplainforme,then,why,in
yourtestimony,youtellusthatyouhavefullresponsibilityforthat,
andMr.Gordonsaysthattherewasnohumantesting,andthenin
thefilehere,itshowsthattherewerefourtestings,andwewillgive
youthedatesonthoseprograms?
AdmiralTurner.Itismyunderstandingthatisdoneunderthe
Armyprogram,notundertheCIAprogram.
SenatorKennedy.AndtheArmysays,specifically,"Theprojects
theDirectordefinesinhistestimonyasbasicallyDepartmentof
Defenseprojects,were,infact,planned,directed,andcontrolledby
theCentralIntelligenceAgency."Now,thatisfromtheDOD;we
gotitlastnight;directedcontrol,andthatthemilitarydepartments
weresolelyaconduitoffundsfromtheCIAtooutsidecontractors.

1293
Now,thatis1973.Thatisjustafewyearsago,andthatiswhywefl
havedifficultyonit,andIimagineyouhavedifficulty,too.,j
AdmiralTurner.Ihavegreatdifficulty.Iamhappytoaskthe
GeneralCounseloftheDepartmentofDefense,whoisintheroom,ft
tocomeupandhelpusclarifythisthing.Iamnottryingtohidej
anything.IfthereisconfusionhereIdonotunderstanditthatway.=

Idonotunderstandthisstatement;Ihaveneverseenitorheardit
beforeyoureadit.f|
So,ifshewouldliketocomeup,wewilltrytostraightenitouty[
betweenthetwoofus.
SenatorKennedy.Well,Idohotwanttotakeawayfromyourf
time.DoestheCounseljustwanttomakeareferencetothatatthisJ
time,orifyouwanttobemoreelaborateonthis,wewillgiveyoua
chance.
Ms.Siemer.Well,wewillappearbeforeyoulateronthismorning,f|
Senator.Wedonotknowanymoreaboutitthantheadmiraldoes.si
Wehavethesamerecords,andwecometoadifferentconclusion.
Ourconclusionisthatthetestingthatwasdonewaspartofaproject"Fi
thatwastestedbytheAgency.Wehavenoadditionaldocumentsand||
noadditionalrecords,otherthanthosethatareavailable.
SenatorKennedy.Then,wewillwait.AsIunderstand,youhave
thesamedocumentsastheAgencyhasandyoubothreacheddifferent1
conclusions,intermsofresponsibility.'"%^
Ms.Siemer.WehaveprovidedourdocumentstoAdmiralTurner*
Iapologizeoverthefactthattheywerenotprovidedtohimuntil2||
daysago,andhehasnothadanopportunitytolookatthoseand;j
trytoanalyzethem.Thatismyfault,becauseittookusalongtime

togetthemoutofourfiles.rs
SenatorKennedy.Well,wewillhearfromyoulateron.But,the1
problem,asweseeit,isinthisfollowontesting,andoverthecourse
ofourinvestigations,weseethevariouskindsofdrugtestingassuming
differentnames;itistheMKULTRA,MKSEARCH,MKCHICKfl
WIT,MKOFTEN.Whethertheyhave"MK"beforethemornot,1
thereisacontinuingprogramforaperiodofsome21years,upto
1973,withunwittingand,then,wittingsubjects.fl
Thematterthatweareobviouslyconcernedwithistheissueof||
accountability;peoplewonderhowtheseprogramsgoonandcon
tinue.Youarenotgoingtobeabletohaltaprogram,orreviewit,5
orprotectthepeoplewhoareinvolvedinitunlessweknowwhois^in1
charge.Wehavedirect,conflictingtestimonyfromthetwoagencies^
ofGovernmentthathaveresponsibilityinthisarea,thatistheAgency
andtheDepartmentofDefense,andthatiswhereweareat.||
AdmiralTurner.Well,wearehappytotrytosortitout.IhaveH
justbeenhandedwhatIamtoldistheDODdocumentthatyouare
referringto,andintabG,lastpage,thereisastatementwhich?*
andthisisaDODdocument,notmineitsays:|
InJune,1973,twomilitaryvolunteer?weretestedatEarlethatisanarmy
depotwithEA3167,butthesetestswerefundedbyarmyRDCEfunds,and
theyarenotconnectedinanywaywiththeCIAproject.j
IdobelieveIamresponsibleforOFTEN/CHICKWIT.IdobelieveJ
thatwefundedsomethingsthroughtheArmyunderOFTEN/
CHICKWIT,andthattheArmydidotherprojectswhichwerenot

partofOFTEN/CHICKWIT,butwereinthesameareaandrelated

130
toit,andthatthistestingofhumanvolunteerswasinthatlatter
categoryofanArmyprojectcloselyrelatedtoOFTEN/CHICKWIT.
SenatorKennedy.Well,wewillmoveonfromthis.Iwillyieldto
SenatorSchweikeronit,butwewilltryandgetthestaffsofyour
departmentandDODwiththesamematerial,sinceweallagreethat
wehavegotthesamedocuments,sothatwecanatleastgetareso
lutionaboutit.Ithinkthatisgoingtobeimportant.
Wehavetheremainingareas,whichwearegoingtoreviewwith
AdmiralTurner,butSenatorSchweikerhasanareanow.j
SenatorSchweiker.Well,Ihaveanotherexamplethesameexact
sortofconflictbetweenyourCIAtestimonyatthelasthearingand*
theinformationwenowhave,Admiral.Iwanttoprefacemyremarks
bysayingIcommendyoufc?releasingtheinitialdocuments.Iknow
itwasnotaneasythingtodo;andIknowfromhavingservedonthe
formerIntelligenceCommittee,thatthatcommitteecouldnoteven*|
gettheinformationatall.So,IthinkyouhavetobegivencreditforI
providinguswiththedocuments.
But,Iwanttobringupanotherinstanceofthesametypeofconflict

thatSenatorKennedyjustbroughtupwithregardtootherprojects.
WhenIquestionedyoulasttimeyouwerehere,Iaskedyouabout
subproject54onbrainconcussion.Oneofyouraidesgaveabriefreply,
andyoupromisedtofindoutwhatyoucouldaboutitandsupplyit
tous.|
Wehavenothadtoomuchsuccessingettinganyadditionalinfor
mation,except,Ithink,atthelastminute,weweretoldtheCIA
reallydidnothavecontrolofthisproject:Itwashandledbythe
OfficeofNavalResearch;itwasbasicallytheirproject.TheCIA
phaseditout.
Well,herewehave,again,intheDefenseDepartment's,testimony,
datedSeptember20th,whatappearstobeacontradiction.Hereis
whatDODsaysaboutit:
ThisprojectbeganinOctober,1954andwasterminated,atleastwithrespect
totheNavy,inDecember,1955.Itwasperformedbyacontractorlocatedin
California.TheinvolvementoftheNavywasprimarilyasaconduitoffunds|
fromtheCentralIntelligenceAgencytothecontractor.AsmallamountofNavyf
fundsmayalsohavebeenusedforthiscontract.InDecember,1955,thisproject
wasterminatedasfarastheNavyinvolvementwasconcerned,anditthereafter,j
apparentlybecamesubproject54intheMKULTRAproject.|
Wearefacedwitharealdilemmainpinpointingresponsibilityand
authorityastowhathappened.Hereisanotherclassicexamplewhere,
initially,youfolkssaid,no;itwasfundedandrunbytheOfficeof
NavalResearch;itwastheirproject.Thatwastheonlyinformation
youcouldsupplytousabouttheproject.Now,theDefenseDepart"j

mentissayingjusttheopposite.;
Howdowepinpointaccountabilityandresponsibility?Howcan
wetellwhowasincharge?
Mr.Laubinger.Senator,Iwouldliketomakeafewcommentsto
that,sinceIansweredyourquestionbeforeon54.Wefurnishedthe
committeewithalltheprojectfoldersonMKULTRA,including54,
complete.
SenatorSchweiker.Iwanttocompliment3rouforthat.Ithink
itwascriticaltoourattemptstosortoutwhatwentoninthe
MKULTRAprojects,Ithinkweshouldcomplimentyoufordoing
that.

131
SenatorKennedy.Wouldyouidentifyyourself,please?
Mr.Laubinger.Ibegyourpardon,Senator.IamFrankLaubinger
withtheOfficeofTechnicalService,whichwasformallyTSD,Tech
nicalServicesDivision.ItestifiedbeforewiththeAdmiralon
MKULTRA.
Onproject54,ithasgotarathersensationalproposalinthere,in
termsoftheworkthattheyproposetodo,andyouaskedaboutthe
proposalandIsaid,infact,itwasneverfundedunderMKULTRA.
Now,Ioverlookedatleast,mymemorydidnotservemecorrectly
whenIwentthroughthatfilefoldertoseeonememorandumdated
January10,1956,whichmakesitquiteclear,asamatteroffact,that

thatproposalwasbasedonpriorworkthatwasfundedbytheAgency.
SenatorSchweiker.Bywhom?
Mr.Laubinger.BytheCIA.So,thatinformationwasintheirfile\
folder.ItdidnothappentobeinmyheadwhenItestified.|
SenatorSchweiker.IthinkImighthavereadpartofthatmemo^\
toyouatthelasthearing.ThatiswhyIarguedwithyouatthetime,
becauseIthinkIhaddocumentsinfrontofme,asIrecall,whichI
clearlyindicatedCIAinvolvement.Ididreadthattoyou.YoudidJ
supplythedocumentstous.Thereisnoargumentaboutthatin
formation,butyouseemedtobedenyingwhatappearedclearfromj
thedocumentsandpersistedindenyingituntilthismorning.J
Mr.Laubinger.PerhapsIamsortofheadstrong,myself,andin
myownview,IamreadingundertheULTRAproject/thatifithad
beenfundedunderULTRA,itwouldhavehadaprojectnumberandI
identifiedassuch.ThethingthatthrewmewasthatitwasJ
funded,apparently,outsideofanyMKULTRAactivityandit
wasunderthenormalcontractingprocess,sothatitwasnotincludedi
inMKULTRAasanyworkdoneunderthatfundingumbrella.;]
ThefilefolderthatyouhaveandIhave,righthere,makesitquite
clear,however,that1year'sworkwasdonethroughNavyfundingT~
aNavyfundingmechanismonwhichtheproposalwasbasedthatj
ultimatelycameintotheMKULTRAprogram.Thatsecondpro^

posalwasneverfunded.So,therewasconflictandI,personally,I
think,introducedalittlebitofconfusioninthatinmytestimony.1
SenatorSchweiker.Well,doyouagreeornotagreewithDOD'siJ
statementherethateventhoughtheinitialfundingwentthrough
Navy,theNavywasreallyactingjustasaconduitfortheCIA?a
Mr.Laubinger.Ithinkthatiscorrect.J
AdmiralTurner.Wouldyoulikemetoaddressyourotherbasic
points,Senator?i
SenatorKennedy.Yes;ifwecouldgotothequalityofthenatureJ
ofthefilesoftheAgency,andthekindofinformationthatisgeUmg*a
upthroughthesystem.Maybeyouwouldwanttomakeageneral
commentaboutthoseallegationsandchargeswhichweheardfromJ
thefourwitnessestotheeffectthatmanyofthedescriptionsofy
ULTRAprojectscontainedinthefiles,forwhichtheywereresponsi
ble,werenotaccurate.Thewitnessesreferredtothesedescriptionsas
boilerplatedescriptions.Onewentsofarastosaythatsomeofthe
recordswereintendedtobemisleading.Mr.Lashbrookevenim
pliedthattherewouldbetwosetsoffiles;onewithacomplete,
accuratedescription;onewithoutthat.

132
WouldyoucommentontherecordkeepingactivitiesoftheAgency,
anddoyouhaverequirementsthatprojectapprovalbebasedon

accuratememorandawhichactuallyreflectwhathasbeendoneand
whatisintendedtobedone?Doyouhavedoublebookkeeping?
Andwhydosomanywitnessestakeissuewiththesubstanceofthe
documentation?
AdmiralTurner.Thereislotsofconfusionaboutthefilesatthe
CIA.Ihavenoindicationthatanyonehaskeptdeliberatelyinac
curatefiles.Ithinkwhenpeoplerefertoinaccuraciesinthisparticu
larcontext,theyreallyshouldbeusingtheword"incomplete".We
mentionedfromthebeginningthatwhatwearetellingyouisincom
plete,throughnofaultofourownatthemoment.
Therearesystemsattheagency,quiteproper,wherewehavewhat
wecallworkingfilesandofficialfiles,andtherearelotsofgoodreasons
forhavingworkingfiles.And,sometimes,peoplewhodonotunder
standthesystemtrytoportraythatasaduplicateperhaps,false,
incomplete,orotherwisedistortingfile.
Theworkingfilegenerallyisanincompletefile,andoneofthemain
reasonsforthatisthatwearedealinginaworldofnecessarysecurity
andsecrecy.Andifthemanonmyrightisworkingonapartofa
project,whetheritisoneoftheseoranythingelse,hewilldevelopa
workingfilefromwhichheoperates,andwedonotwantittohavethe
thingsthatbelongtomymanontheleft,ifheisworkingonadifferent
partofthatprojectandthetwoofthemdonotneedtoknoweach
other'spart.
Inordertokeepthesecrecyastightaswecan,theworkingfileswill
bedifferentandeachwillbeincomplete,forgoodreason.Inaddition,
wekeepworkingfilesasamatterofconvenienceandasamatterof
insuringthattheofficialfiledoesnotgettornapart,separated,lost,or
destroyedinanyway.
So,thefellowthathasgottohaveitinhishandsandmaybetake
itwithhimtomeetings,hetakesacopy,whichiscalledaworking
file.Ithinkthatiswhatthewitnessesyesterday,iftheywerenotbeing

selfserving,werereferringtowhentheysuggestedwehadduplicate
files.But,again,Ihavenowayofguaranteeing,Senator,whatpeople
putinthefilesinthe1950'sand1960's.
IonlysaythatIhavelookedintothesystemasitexiststodayinthe
agency,andIdonotfindanyevidenceofpeoplekeepingfilesforthe
purposeofdistortingthefactstopeoplewhohavetherighttogetinto
them.
SenatorSchweiker.DoIunderstandandIrealizethiswasbefore
yourwatchthatafile,whetherofficialorworking,wouldnotbe
Ereparedwiththepurposeofdistortingtheprojectorobscuringor
idmgthefacts?
AdmiralTurner.Ihavenoevidenceofthat,Senator.AsIsay,I
cannottellyou
SenatorSchweiker.WecameacrosstheDr.Geschicktercase
yesterday.Heprettywelldeniedtheessenceofwhatwasinthefiles.
Forexample,thefilessaidtherewastobeamemorandumofagreement
betweentheAgencyandDr.Geschickteronsubproject35,andthat
hewascompletelywritingoffthetermsoftheagreementyesterday,
hedeniedeverknowingofsuchanagreementatall,deniedeverseeing
amemorandumofagreement,anddeniedsigningamemorandumof
agreement.

133
AdmiralTurner.Well,IHavenotreadDr.Geschickter'stesti

mony.Ihavebeentoldalittlebitaboutit.Itismyunderstandinghe
saidthatwegave$335,000toGeorgetownUniversity,ortohisfounda
tionfortheGeorgetownUniversity;thatweneithergotnoraskedfor
anyservicesinreturnforthat,andIjustfindthatanutterlyincredible?
allegationforanybodytomake.]
Icannotimagineanyofficialofthisgovernmentgivingaway$335,
000andnotaskingforsomethinginreturn.
SenatorKennedy.Well,didyougetanythinginreturn?^f
AdmiralTurner.Wedonotknowwhatwegot.'il
SenatorKennedy.Well,thatisthepoint.Ifyouhadotherkinds
ofdocumentsorinformationonit,youmighthavesomeidea,buti
youreallydonotknow.Itisincredibletousthattheygaveitaway.||
AdmiralTurner.Ididnotsayhewasincorrect.
SenatorKennedy.Right.*_
AdmiralTurner.Isaiditwasincrediblethatitcouldhappen.3
1cannotbelieveit.Ithinkhewasmistaken.^
SenatorKennedy.Idaresaythatitwassomewhatmoresevere,
intermsofthecriticismsoftherecordkeeping.Mr.Goldmanindi|
catedthathewasorderedbyhissuperiorstojustifythecontinuationJ
ofaprogramandtofileastatementthatwouldjustifyit,whichwas
notbaseduponthemeritsofthatparticularprogram.g
Theytalkedaboutboilerplatelanguagethatwasusedforthei

continuationoftheprogram.Inonememorandumfortherecordof
Mkultra,itsays:
ThisprojectwasconductedbyCalSalerno,whohold?topsecretagencyjl
clearanceandiscompletelywittingoftheaimsandgoalsoftheproject.^
Mr.Salernosworeinhissworntestimonythathewasshockedto
hearthat.Hetestifiedheneverknewtheaimsorthegoalsofthe1
project.ii
Morerecently,intheMkabate,whichisanotherprograma
subdivisionofoneoftheotherMK'sinJanuaryof1972thenotation71
ofitsays,"authorizingMkabatedated1964,IthinkweshouldJ
update,sincenewDCI"newDirectorofCentralIntelligence
Agencythensignedbytheperson.?
Rightunderneathitthisisobviouslythesuperior^"Noaction}*
byTSB/BF,perteleconwith"anotheragent.Then,theagent,m
evidently,isnotsatisfiedand,later,onJanuary18,1972,itsays:
"Call,referenceneedforanupdateofMkabateactivityapproval."
Andthen,hecontinues,"DCIapproval1964,whyupdatedueto
changeinDCI's?"Andthen,underthebottomfromthesuperior,
"Noactionrequired."
Now,howwouldyouevenknowthatthesethingsweregoingon?
Thisisintheonearea,intermsofhumanexperimentation,thatthe
newDirectorwasgoingtogetanykindofinformation.Howdoyou
know,really,whatisgoingon,ifyouhavegotpeopleasrecentlyas
that,andthatisin1972?Iimaginesomeofthesepeoplearestill
there.

AdmiralTurner.Senator,Ihavenocomment.IfMr.Horowitz
hadincludedthatonthelistofmaterialhewantedmetopreparefor,
Iwouldhave.IhaveneverheardofMkabateuntilthistime.
SenatorKennedy.Wejustreceivedthatthismorning,anditis
justrelevanttothisparticulararea.
Couldwegototherelationshipwiththeotheragencies?

134
AdmiralTurner.Yes,sir.Wehaveveryclearrulesonthese.You
askedaboutuniversities.Wehaveaninternalregulationissuedin
Februaryof1976thatwewillhavenocontractualrelationshipwitha
universitythatisunwittingtotheuniversity.
WedonothaveanyrelationshipswithotheragenciesoftheU.S.
Governmentwhichareunwittingtotheappropriatepeopleinthose
%*.agencies,andinyourareaofhealthcare,anyremotelyrelatedhealth
itemthatwegetinvolvedintodaypsychology,andthingslikethis
wehavetogetaseriallynumberedapprovalfromtheDepartmentof
Health,Education,andWelfare,andtheyare,therefore,fullywitting.
Andwedonotgetintothiskindofareawithoutitbeingapprovedby
theproperhealthauthoritiesintheGovernment.
SenatorKennedy.Youdonotbelieve,norisitthepolicynow,
thattheagencyworkcovertlywithanyotheragenciesofGovernment?

AdmiralTurner.Well,weworkcovertlywithotheragenciesof
Government.
SenatorKennedy.Withintheotheragencies?
AdmiralTurner.Wedonotworkcovertlyagainstthosepeople.
Somebodyinthoseagenciesknowswhatwearedomg.
SenatorKennedy.Well,doestheDirectorofeachoftheagenc's
alwaysknowwhattheactivitiesoftheCIAare?
AdmiralTurner.Yes.
SenatorSchweiker.Youaresayingitisdonewittingly?
AdmiralTurner.Thatiscorrect.
SenatorSchweiker.Thatisthequestion,whethertheother
agenciesarewittingorunwittingoftheCIA'sactivities.
AdmiralTurner.Idonotsay,SenatorSchweiker,thateverybody
inthoseagenciesknows.
SenatorSchweiker.But,youaresayingthetopofficialknows?
AdmiralTurner.Thatiscorrect.Ihavehadpersonalconversa
tionswithanumberofCabinetofficerswhohaverelationshipswithus,
whereweworkthemoutindetail.But,Iamsurethereisacertain
secrecywithintheiragencies,justasthereiswithinours.
SenatorSchweiker.WhataboutCIAuseoffoundations?Founda
tionscameupwithrelationtoDr.Geschickter'stestimony.Ibelieve
theCIAestablishedapolicysomeyearsbackofnotusingfoundations.
AmIcorrectinthatornot?
AdmiralTurner.That,Idonot

SenatorSchweiker.Afoundationwasapparentlyusedtofundthe
^Geschickterfundasaconduit,IbelievethepolicyontheCIA'suseof
'foundationsisknownastheKatzenbachguidelines.Iamjustwonder
ingiftheKatzenbachguidelinesarestillineffect.
AdmiralTurner.Yes,theyare.
SenatorSchweiker.Andwhat,inessence,dotheyprovide?
AdmiralTurner.Well,Iamnotpositiveofthosewithrespectto
foundations.Iwouldbehappytogetthatforyou.
SenatorSchweiker.Couldoneofyourassistantsmaybeanswer
that?
Mr.Laubinoer.Iamsorry.Ididnothearyourquestion.Would
youaskitagain?
SenatorSchweiker.IbelievetheKatzenbachguidelineswere
promulgatedbackin1967,whensomeinformationaboutCIAfounda
tionfundingcametolight.Myquestionreallyis,aretheguidelines
stillineffect,andwhatarethey?

135
AdmiralTurner.Wewillhavetofurnishthatfortherecord,sir.
SenatorSchweikbr.Fine.We'dappreciatethat.
[Theinformationreferredtofollows:]

3*

i
3

a
i

136
THEDIRECTOROFCENTRALINTELLIGENCE
WASHINGTON.D.C.20W3

HiOfficaofLegislativeCounsel
jC27September1977

HonorableEdwardM.Kennedy,Chairman
SubcommitteeonHealthandScientific
Research
CommitteeonHumanResources
UnitedStatesSenate
Washington,D.C.20510
DearMr.Chairman:
InresponsetoSenatorRichardSchweiker'squestion
astowhethertheAgencyisfollowingtheguidelinesof
theKatzenbachReport,Ihavecontacted,appropriate
officesintheAgencyandIcanassureyouthat.weare
complyingwiththeguidelinesrecommendedbytheReport
andendorsedbythePresident.
EnclosedisacopyoftheKatzenbachReportfor
yourinformation.

LeL.Miller
ActingLegislativeCounseli;
'|
Enclosure|

137

THEUNDERSECRETARYOFSTATE
WASHINGTON"'

March24,1967

DearHePresident:
TheconsultteewhichyouappointedonFebruary'15,1967
hassought,pursuanttoyourrequest:
Toreviewrelationshipsbetweengovernmentagencies,
notablytheCentralIntelligenceAgency,andeducational
andprivatevoluntaryorganizationswhichoperateabroad;
and"'.

Torecommendmeanstohelpassurethatsuchorgan!.
zationscanplaytheirproperandvitalroleabroad.
Thecommitteehasheldanumberofmeetings,interviewed
dozensofindividuals"inandoutofgovernment,andreviewed
thousandsofpagesofreports.Wehavesurveyedtherele
vantactivitiesofanumberoffederalagencies.Andwehave
reviewedinparticularandspecificdetailtherelationship'
betweenCIAandeachrelevantorganization.:|
Ourreport,supplementedwithsupportingclassified
documents,follows.
Insummary,thecommitteeofferstwobasicrecommendations;
1.Itshouldbethepolicyof*theUnitedStatesGovern
mentthatnofederalagencyshallprovideanycovertfinancial

ai

ThePresident
TheWhiteHouse;

Ij
i
aI

138

ass
nation

istanceorsupportsdirectorIndirect,toanyofthe
Ion'3educationalorprivatevoluntaryorganizations.

2.theGovernmentshouldpromptlydevelopandestablish
publicprivatemechanismtoprovidepublicfundsopenly
foroverseasactivitiesoforganizationswhichareadjudged
deserving,inthenationalinterest,ofpublicsupport.

1:AMEWPOLICY
TheyearsimmediatelyafterWorldWarIIsawasurge,
ofcommunistactivityinorganizationsthroughouttheworld.
Students,scientists,veterans,womenandprofessionalgroups
wereorganizedIntointernationalbodieswhichspokeInthe
cadences,advocatedthepolicies,andfurtheredtheInterests
ofthecommunistbloc.Muchofthisactivitywasorganized,
directed,andfinancedcovertlybycommunistgovernments.

'Americanorganizationsreacted"fromthefirst.The
youngmenandwomenwhofoundedtheUnitedStatesNational
StudentAssociation,forexample,didsopreciselytogive
AmericanyouththecapacitytoholdtheirownIntheinter
nationalarena.Buttheimportanceofstudentsasaforce
ininternationaleventshadyettobecomewidelyunderstood
findNSAfounditdifficulttoattractprivatesupportfor
itsinternationalactivities.Accordingly,theUnitedStates
Government,actingthroughtheCentralIntelligenceAgency,
providedsupportforthisoverseaswork.
Wehave*takenNSAasanexample.Whilenousefulpur
posewouldbeservedbydetailinganyotherCIAprograms
ofassistancetoprivateAmericanvoluntaryorganizations,
onefundamentalpointshouldbeclearlystated:such
assistancewasgivenpursuanttoNationalSecurityCouncil
policiesbeginningin'October,1951andwiththesubsequent,
concurrenceofhighlevelseniorinterdepartmentalreview
committeesinthelastfourAdministrations.InDecember,
1960,inaclassifiedreportsubmittedafterayearofstudy,
apublicprivatePresidentialCommitteeonInformation
ActivitiesAbroadspecificallyendorsedbothovertandcovert
programs,includingthoseassistedbyCIA.

139

3
Ourstudy,undertakenatalatertime,disclosesnew
developmentswhichsuggestthatveshouldnowreexamine'
thesepolicies.TheAmericanpublic,forexample,hasbe

**comeincreasinglyawareoftheimportanceofthecomplex
formsofinternationalcompetitionbetweenfreesocieties
andcommuniststates.Asthisawarenesshasgrown,sohave
potentialsourcesofsupportfortheoverseasworkofpri
*vateorganizations.
Thereisnopreciseindexto.thesesources,buttheir
increaseissuggestedbythegrowthinthe'numberofprivate.
foundationsfrom2.,220in1955to18*000in1967.Henceit
isincreasinglypossiblefororganizationslikeKSAtoseek'
"supportforoverseasactivities'fromopensources.
*.*
Justassourcesofsupporthaveincreased,sohasthe
numberofAmericangroupsengagedinoverseaswork.Accord
ingtotheAgencyforInternationalDevelopsaent,therehas
beenaninefoldincreasejustamongvoluntaryorganizations
whichparticipateintechnicalassistanceabroad,rising*
from24in1951to220in1965.Thetotalofallprivate
Americanvoluntarygroupsnowworkingoverseasmaywellex
ceedathousand..
Thenumberofsuchorganizationswhichhasbeenassisted
covertlyisasmallfractionofthetotal.Thevastpre
.pOnderancehavehad'norelationshipwiththegovernmentor
hxveacceptedonlyopengovernmentfundswhichgreatlyexceed
fundssuppliedcovertly.
TheworkofprivateAmericanorganizations,in*host
^offields,hasbeenofgreatbenefittoscoresofcountries.
*Hatbenefitmustnotbeimpairedbyforeigndoubtsabout

theindependenceoftheseorganizations.Thecoaaaitteebe
lievesitis.essentialfortheUnitedStatestounderscore..
thatindependenceimmediatelyanddecisively.
.""
_Forthesereasons,thecotaaitteerecommendsthefollowing:

140I

4
STATEMENTOFPOLICY
Nofederalagencyshallprovideanycovert
financialassistanceorsupport,directorin
direct,toanyofthenation'seducationalor
privatevoluntaryorganizations.Thispolicy
specificallyappliestoallforeignactivities
ofsuchorganizationsanditreaffirmspresent
policywithrespecttotheirdomesticactivities;.
Wheresuchsupporthasbeengiven,itwill
beterminatedasquicklyaspossiblewithoutde
stroyingvaluableprivateorganisationsbefore
theycanseeknewmeansofsupport.*
Webelievethat,particularlyinthelightofrecent
publicity,establishmentofaclearpolicyofthiskindis
theonlywayforthegovernmenttocarryouttwoimportant.
responsibilities.Oneistoavoidanyimplicationthat
governmentalassistance,becauseitisgivencovertly,is
usedtoaffectthepoliciesofprivatevoluntarygroups.

Thesecondresponsibilityistomakeitplain,inallforeign
countriesthattheactivitiesofprivateAmericangroups
abroadere,infact,private.
Thecozaitteehassoughtcarefullytoassesstheimpact
ofthisStatementofPolicyonCIA.Wehavereviewedeach
relevantprogramofassistancecarriedoutbythe*Agencyin
casebycasedetail.Asaresultofthisscrutiny,the
committeeissatisfiedthatapplicationoftheStatementof
PolicywillnotundulyhandicaptheAgencyintheexercise
qfitsnationalsecurityresponsibilities.Indeed,it
shouldbenotedthat,startingwellbeforetheappearance
ofrecentpublicity,CIAhadinitiatedandpursuedefforts
todisengagefromcertainoftheseactivities.
Thecommitteealsorecommendsthattheimplementation
ofthispolicybesupervisedbytheseniorinterdepartmental

*0nthebasisofourcasebycasereview,weexpectthat
theprocessofterminationcanbelargelyperhapsentirely
completedbyDecember31,1967.

141

reviewcommitteewhichalreadypassesonproposedCIAacti
vitiesandwhichwouldreviewandassistintheprocessof

disengagement.*
2:NEWMETHODSOFSUPPORT
Whileourfirstrecoracendationseekstoinsurethein
dependenceofprivatevoluntaryorganizations,itdoesnot
dealwithanunderlyingprobletnhowtosupportthenational
needfor,andtheintrinsicworthof,theireffortsabroad.

*IftheStatementofPolicyis"tobeeffective,itmust
berigorouslyenforced.Inthejudgmentofthiscoran.ittee,
noprogramscurrentlywouldjustifyanyexceptiontothis
policy.Atthesametime,wherethesecurityofthenation
maybeatstake,itisimpossiblefor'thiscommitteetostate
categoricallynowthattherewill'neverbeacontingencyin
which'overriding'*,nationalsecurityinterestsmayrequirean
exceptionnor'woulditbecredibletoenunciateapolicy
whichpurportedtodoso.
Wethereforerecommendthat,in"theeventofsuchun
usualcontingencies,theinterdepartmentalreviewcommittee
bepermittedtomakeexceptionstotheStatementofPolicy,
butonlywhereoverridingnationalsecurityinterestssore
quire;onlyonacasebycasebasis;onlywhereopensources
oisupportareshowntobeunavailable;andonlywhensuch
exceptionsreceivethespeciticapprovaloftheSecretaries
ofStateandUelcnsc.Innoeventshouldanyfutureexception
beapproved.hiciinvolvesanyeducational,philanthropic,or
culturaloraanizacion.

Anyonewhohasjfcheslightestfamiliaritywithintellecft
tualoryouthgroupsabroadknowsChatfreeinstitutions||
continuetobeunderbitter,continuousattack,someofit
carefullyorganizedandwellfinanced,allofitpotentially**
dangeroustothisnation.j]
Itisofthegreatestimportancetoourfutureandto
thefutureoffreeinstitutionseverywherethatothernations,f|
especiallytheiryoungpeople,know.andunderstandAmerican.J
viewpoints.Thereisnobetterwaytomeetthisneedthan
throughtheactivityofprivateAmericanorganizations.,~

I:
I
142I
XI
6J
''1

Thetimehassurelyconeforthegovernmenttonelp|
supportsuchactivityinanature*openmanner.|
I'1
Someprogresstowardthataimalreadyhasbeenmade.
Inrecentyears,anumberoffederalagencieshavedeveloped
contracts,grants,andotherformsofopenassistanceto
privateorganizationsforoverseasactivities.Thisz,
assistance,however,doesnotdealwithamajoraspedtof
theproblem.Anumberoforganizationscannot,withoutI
hamperingtheireffectiveness,asindependentbodies,accept
fundsdirectlyfromgovernmentagencies.|
ThecommitteethereforerecommendsthattheGovernment|
shouldpromptlydevelopandestablishapublicprivatemechanism
to'providepublicfundsopenlyforoverseasactivitiesof
organizationswhichareadjudgeddeserving,inthenational
Interest,ofpublicsupport..'._f
Such'amechanismcould'takevarious,forms.Onepromlsf
ingproposal,advancedbyMr.EugeneBlack,callsfora
publiclyfundedbutprivatelyadministeredbodypatterned|
ontheBritishCouncil..I

'..|
The'BritishCouncilestablished,in1934,operatesin80f
countries,administeringapproximately$30,000,000annually
forreferencelibraries,exhibitions,scholarships,,inter
nationalconferences,andcultural;exchanges.Because21
ofits30membersaredrawnfromprivatelife,theCouncil
hasmaintainedareputationforindependence,eventhough.
90percentofitsfundsaregovernmental..f
AccordingtotheUNESCODirectoryofCulturalRelations|
Services,othernationshavedeveloped*somewhatsimilarj
.institutions.TheIndianCouncilforCulturalRelations,
forexample,is'entirelygovernmentfinancedbutoperates
autonomously.ThegoverningbodyoftheSwedishInstitutej
forCulturalRelationsconsistsofbothgovernmentand
privatemembers.Thisinstitutereceives75percentofits
fundsfromthegovernmentandtheremainderfromprivate
contributions.

iii

143

Theexperienceoftheseandothercountries
helpstodemonstratethedesirabilityOfasimilar
bodyintheUnitedStates,Whollyorlargelyfunded
bythefederalgovernment.Anotherapproachmight:
betheestablishmentofagovernmentalfoundation,
perhapswithlinkstotheexistingFederalInter
AgencyCouncilonInternationalEducationand
CulturalAffairs.
Suchapublicprivatebodywouldnotbenewto
theUnitedStates.CongressestablishedtheSmith
sonianInstitution,forexample,"morethanacentury
agoasaprivatecorporation,undertheguardianship
ofCongress,butgovernedbyamixedpublicprivate
BoardofRegents.
Thecommitteebeganapreliminarystudyofwhat
.mightbethebestmethodofmeetingthepresentneed.
Itisevident,however,that,becauseofthegreat
rangebothofexistinggovernmentandprivatephilan
thropicprograms,therefinementofalternative!and
selectionamongthemisataskofconsiderablecom
plexity.Accordingly,wedonotbelievethatthis
exclusivelygovernmentalcommitteeisanappropriate
forumforthetask"andwerecommend,instead,the
appointmentofalargergroup,includingindividuals
inprivatelifewithextensiveexperienceinthis
field.
Thebasicprinciple,inanyevent,isclear.
Suchanewinstitutionwouldinvolvegovernmentfunds.
Itmightwellinvolvegovernmentofficials.Buta.

premiummustbeplacedontheinvolvementofprivate
'citizensandtheexerciseofprivatejudgments,for.
tobeeffective,itwouldhavetohaveandbe
recognizedtohaveahighdegreeofindependence.

144

Thepromptcreationofsuchaninstitution,based
onthisprinciple,wouldfillanimportantandnever.
moreapparentnationalneed.
Respectfully,

Secretaryof
Health,EducationandWelfare

RichardHelms
Directorof
CentralIntelligence

$JtiUk.

NicholasdeB.Katzenbach
UnderSecretaryofState,
Chairman

145
SenatorChafee.Mr.Chairman,Idonothaveanyquestions.It
seemstomethatthismatter,asyouknow,isgoingtocomeupwithj
thegeneralguidelinesthatwillbesetforthbytheIntelligenceCom^
mittee,anditseemstomewehaveclearedtheairtosomeextent.
AndIthink,ashasbeensaidtoooftenhere,itiswelltobearin?f
mindthatallthistookplacemanyyearsago,beforethesegentlemen||
and,certainly,AdmiralTurnerwasinvolvedinanyway,orthe
currentregimeintheDefenseDepartment.p.
SenatorSchweiker.Ihaveanotherquestion.1

AdmiralTurner,lasttimewewerehere,Ithinkthechairmanandk*
othermembersofthecommitteediscussedyourplansfornotification
oftheinstitutionsandinvestigatorsinvolvedinMKULTRA.Could|1
youbringusuptodateonwhetherthatnotificationhastakenplace?H
Havealltheinstitutionsbeentoldoftheirformerinvolvement?
AdmiralTubneb.IsGeneralCounselhere?m
SenatorKennedy.Wouldyouidentifyyourself,please?||
Mr.Julien.EmileJulien;Iamwiththeagency'sOfficeofGeneral
Counsel.Wearestillintheprocessofworkingoutnotifyingindivid
uals,wherewecanfindindividuals,withtheDepartmentofJustice.;|
AdmiralTurner.Alltheinstitutionshavebeennotified,havethey*
not?
Mr.Julien.Alltheinstitutions,yes.!!$
AdmiralTubneb.Alltheinstitutionshave,andineachcase,weJ
haveoffered,iftheywant,toprovidethemallthebackupmaterial
thatisunclassifiedthatwecan.Wejustsentthemaletterandde,,
scribedthefactthatwewereinvolved.Someofthemhavecomebackf|
andaskforthosedetails.Someofthemhavesentrepresentativeshere^
toourofficestoreviewthematerials.Othershavenotrespondedatall.
But,weareavailabletogivethemeverythingthatwehavegivenyouf1
onanunclassifiedbasisthattheywant.|]

SenatorSchweiker.Whatabouteffortstolocatesubjectsofprevi
ousresearchprojectsformedicalcheckupsorfollowups,orinformingpt
unwittingsubjectsthatsomethingmighthavehappenedtothemdur:|
ingthetestingprogram?Whatisthepolicyoftheagency,andwhere
areweinthatregard?
AdmiralTubneb.Wearedoingeverythingwecanthere.But,ofI
course,Iambeingverycarefultokeeptheagencyoutofinvestigating
andsearchingforAmericancitizensinsidetheUnitedStates.Wehave
turnedthatovertotheAttorneyGeneralwhohasturneditovertothe
FBI.Iaskedhimjustyesterdayhowtheyweregoing,andhesaidthey
areworkingonit,buttheyhavenotyetactuallylocatedanybody.
But,wearegivingthemalloftheinformationwehave.
Thereareonlyafewcaseswherewethinkitislikelytheywould
evenbeabletofindpeople,andthatislikeinaninstitution.Apenal
institutionmighthavekeptsomerecords.Theyhavesomeproblems
checkingwithlegalitieshere,andtheyhavenotactually,tomy
knowledge,foundanypeopleyet,buttheyarechecking.
SenatorSchweiker.ThisisallgoingtobehandledbytheJustice
Department,yousay?
AdmiralTurner.Yes,istherealegalcheckhere?Ithoughtitwas
amatterofinformingpeopleanddoingmedicalfollowup,oramI
missingthepoint?

146
TheAttorneyGeneraltellsmehehadsomeconcernsaboutthe
legalityofthewaywegoaboutfindingthesepeopleandpryinginto
therecordsoftheseinstitutions,andsoon.Idonothavethedetails

orspecificsonthat,Senator,buthehastakenresponsibilityforthe
governmentalefforttolocatetheindividuals,andweareproviding
supportinanywaywecan.
_,..Thereisonemoresupplementarypointofinformation.
**Mr.Brody.Imightaddonething,Senator,andthatisthatweare
gettingoccassionallettersinfrompeoplewhosaytheyhavebeen,or
recallDeingsubjectsofexperiments.Wearedoingwhateverwecan
tocheckoutthosenamesofpeopletoseeifwehaveanythinginour
ownrecordstoindicatethat,indeed,thatwasthecase,andwe"willbe
cooperatingwiththosepeopletotrytogivethemwhateverwehave.
AdmiralTurner.Wehavehad77letters,49ofwhichwehavean
sweredthatwedonothaveanyhelpforthem,andtherest,weare
stillresearching.
SenatorKennedy.Whatrecordswouldyoucheckfortheunwitting
subjects?Asinalltherecords,youhavecheckedthemall,haveyou
not?
AdmiralTurner.Oh,yes.Wehavenonamesofindividuals,but
theytellus,"Mysonwasinthisplaceatthistime;wasthatanywhere
connectedwithyouractivities,"andsoon.Lotsofpeopleinthe
countryhavewrittenusthataretotallyunrelated,wearesure.
SenatorKennedy.InanearlierquestioninAugust,weaskedabout
theothertestsinvolvingcurrentactivetestsstudyinghumanbe
haviorandwhatresearchwastakingplace.Now,youindicatedyou
wouldmakethatavailabletous.Couldyou?Wehavenotreceivedthat
yet.Iwouldbeinterestedinit,ifyoucouldprovideitforusinthenext
2or3weeks;page32ofthetranscript.
AdmiralTurner.Allright.Wewillcheckitoutandgetittoyou,
sir.

SenatorKennedy.Fine.Iknowyouhavegotatimeproblem,andI
willjustholdyouafewmoreminutes.Canyoutellus,fromadefense
intelligenceposition,now,whatshouldbebeingdonenow,interms
ofnationalsecurityreasons,inthisarea?
Imeanarewefacedwithadversariesthatarecontinuingtobe
involvedinthis?Obviously,wetakethatresponsibilityextremely
seriously,andwewanttoworkcloselywiththeagencyalongthe
guidelineswhichwehavesuggestedandwhichyouhaveindicated
strongpersonalsupportfor.
*But,isthereanythingthatyouwanttomentioninthisareatous
today?
AdmiralTurner.Ihavenothingspecific,Senator,butwemust
keepabreastofwhatothernationsmaybedoingintheseareasthat
couldbeusedagainstusorourpeople.That,ofcourse,neednot
involveexperimentationonhumansand,certainly,wouldnotinvolve
unwittingexperimentationonhumans.But,throughournormalintel
ligenceoperations,wetargetagainsttheresearchactivitiesorthe
operationaluseofdrugsormindcontrollingexperimentationinother
countries.
Ihavenoevidenceatthispointthatthereisanyseriousthreator
activityinthatareaatthismoment,butIthinkwemustconstantly
monitorthat,andifwecometoanynecessityofaresponsetoitor
preparationforit

147I
SenatorKennedy.Howprevalentisitnow,intermsoftheAgency's
agentsoverseas,andtherestofthem?'pi
AdmiralTurner.Notprevalent.Itisnotaproblem.j

SenatorKennedy.But,yourinformationisthatthereisthatcapac
ityforthisactivitybyadversaries,isthatcorrect?
AdmiralTurner.Yes;thereis.f|
SenatorKennedy.Letmejustmakeafinalcomment,AdmiralJ
Turner.Ithinkoneofthethingsthatissoperplexing,aswearetrying
tobringthecurtaindownonthisphaseofintelligence,istogainanm
understandingintennsofthevalueandintermsofthenational]
securitythatwasobtainedthroughthese21yearsofexperimentation
onunwitting,aswellaswittingsubjects.Whatwasthevalueinterms,.
ofournationalsecurity?,J
Iamcompletelyconvincedthatwhatwasdoneandwhatwastested^
couldhavebeendonethroughtheotheragencies,anddoneinthe
open.Iknowthattherearethosethatfeel,"Well,wewantedtokeepfl
awayfromouradversariestheprogressthatwasbeingmade."But,|J
..thefactofthematteris,mostoftheresultsofthestudiesthatwere
beingdonewereactuallyprintedandreportedindocumentswhich.*
wouldhavebeenavailabletoouradversaries.1
But,besidesthat,aswetrytocometoaconclusiononthiswesee,'
really,inwhatwehopetobeourfinalday,adirectconflictbetween
twoagenciesofGovernmentworkingunderoneadministration;theJ
agencyandtheDepartmentofDefense.ItseemsthereisaconflictinJ

termsoftheresponsibilityforthetestinginthelatteryears,which
bringsusupto1973;whichwasnotthatlongago.f|
Wearegoingtomakeeveryefforttotryandresolvethis,giventheyj
factthatitissimilarmaterial,butwehavethetwodifferentagencies
ofGovernmentdrawingcompletely.differentconclusions.Ifirmly,
believethatunlessyoucangetaccountabilityinaprogramwith'1
dimensionssuchasthis,orinanyprogram,forthatmatter,thatwe^
arejustnotmeetingourresponsibilitiesfortheprotectionofAmericans.
Whatwearetalkingabout,Ibelieve,isanextraordinaryburden
whichexistsfortheIntelligenceAgencyintheUnitedStates.Weput
moreofaburdenonourIntelligenceAgencythananyothercountry
putsontheirs',becauseweexpectyoutocarrythroughwiththe
intelligencegatheringofinformation,andyettodoitinwayswhich
arenotgoingtoviolatethebasicandfundamentalprincipleswhich
thiscountrywasbuiltupon,andthatisatoughchallenge.AndI
thinktheAgency,atdifferenttimesinitshistory,hasmetit,andat
othertimes,ithasnot.
But,thefactofthematteris,whenwedonothavethatkindof
accountability,wearenotgoingtohavetheresponsibilityinanarea
whichhasaffectedindividualsinthemostextraordinaryways.That
is,alteringtheirhumanbehavior,thevariouskindsoftestings,the
electronicseavesdropping,andrecording,allofwhichissoaliento
theprotectionofhumanliberties,andthenweseetheperversion,
inthepast,intermsofuniversitiesandotheragenciesofGovern
ment.Allofthisleavesthequestionofaccountability,hereinthisarea,
suspect.
Wearereachingtherealbedrock,intermsofwhatthissocietyis

tobeabout.Ithinkitreallychallengesourwholekindofsystemto
seehowwecan.bringanendtothosekindsofviolationsofindividual
liberties,topjtectourinstitutions,andstillprovideforournational
security.

148
Wecontinuetobetroubledbythenatureoftherecordkeeping.
Wehavedirectconflictsbysworntestimonybydifferentagents.
Obviously,yourexplanationhasbeenofsomehelp,butwehaddif
ferentconflictsaboutjustwhethertherecordkeepingwasinthisfile
orthatfile;agents,undersworntestimony,whotoldthattheywere
toldbysuperiorstoworkupajustification,andothersthatsaidthat
theysignedmattersasamatterofroutinethathadnorelevancy
%.tothesubstancewhichtheywereinterestedin.
Wecannotcomeawayfromtheconclusionthatatleastsomewhere
Idonotthinkitiswithyou,personally,butIthinkwithinthe
Agency,thattheyfeltthatthiswasallpartofthepastanditwasnot
reallynecessarytoreallycomeforwardwiththekindofinformation
thatclosethischapter.
Wefind,justinourstaffpeopleinterviewingagentsandpeople
thathaveinformation,thattheyhaveneverbeencontactedbythe
CIA,eveninrecenttimes;recentweeks,recentdays.Andthisis
disturbing.
But,wewanttolooktothefuture,bothtowardthecharterof
theAgencythatwillbedirectedtowardtheprotectionofthehuman
subjectsandwewanttolooktoourlegislation.Wehaveextended

thelifeofthepanelonprotectionofhumansubjects,now.Wepassed
itintheSenatelastweek.Itdidnothaveaparticularphrase,interms
oftheAgencyandDODonit,butitisabsolutelyessentialthatwe
do,whenwecometogripswiththat,hopefullyattheendofthisyear
ortheearlypartofnext.TheSecretaryofHEWhassomeideas
relatingtothatwholepanelwhichwehavetoclarify.
But,wewillwantyoursupportinthecharterwhich,Iamsure,
fromyourownpersonaltestimony,youwouldseeachieved,andwe
wouldwantyoursupportintermsofthelegislationinthefuture.We
thankyouforyourpresenceheretoday.
AdmiralTurner.Thankyouverymuch.
SenatorKennedy.WewillhearfromDeanneSiemerfromthe
DepartmentofDefense,whoalsohasgotaconflictintermsoftime,
hertestimonywillbe,asIunderstandit,relativelybriefaridthenwe
willrecess.
Ms.DeanneSiemer,wearegladtohaveyouhere.Wewelcomeyou
here.Youhavealotofemptyseatsonbothsidesofyou;Youlook
likealonelyfigureoutthere,butIcantellfromourpastcommunica
tionswithyouonothermatters,thatyouhandletheseresponsibilities
extremelywellandcapablyfortheDepartment.
*J*?we^comeyourtestimonyhere,wewouldlikeyou,ifyouwould,
to*a?rectyourselftothoseinconsistenciesthatImentionedearlier
withMr.Turner,givingyouanopportunitytoaddressthose.Iwill
askyoutodowhateveryouwanttodo,intermsofyourpresentation,
butIhopeyouwillcometogripswiththatparticularproblem;
whateverwayyouwanttoproceed.
STATEMENTOFDEANNEC.SIEMEB,GENEBALCOUNSEL,
DEPARTMENTOFDEFENSE
Ms.Siemer.Senator,letmeaddressfirstthequestionofthetesting

atEdgewoodwithrespecttothiscompound,whichhasbeendesignated
3167.
SenatorKennedy.Whatwasthatone?Canyoutellus?

149m
Ms*Siemer.Thatappearsonpage5ofmyreporttotheSecretary,fl
anditisaprojectthatbeganin1971,wasterminatedin1973,and1
waspartofOften,orMkoften.Apparently,whathappenedhereis
thattheEdgewoodArsenalresearchlaboratoriesweretestinga^i
numberofcompoundspriortothetimethattheCentralIntelligence|
Agencyhadanyinterestinthesecompounds.
Theytestedthecompoundsbothonanimalsandinhumantesting,
andthehumantestinghasbeenreportedtoyoupreviously.In1971,fj
theCentralIntelligenceAgencyapparentlyreviewedEdgewood'sil
workinconnectionwiththeirProjectOftentoidentifyanypartof
Edgewood'sworkthatmightbeusefulforthatproject,orusefulforft
thepurposesthattheyhadinmind,whichwereapparentlydifferent^j
thanthepurposesforwhichEdgewoodhadinitiallydonethetesting.
In1971,theAgencytransferredsome$37,000toEdgewoodto^
pursuetestingofthiscompound,whichwasdesignatedEA^3167,|I

whichhadpreviouslybeentestedbyEdgewood.TheAgencywas^
interestedinsomedifferentkindsoftesting.
Specifically,theywantedtoknowfromEdgewoodwhetherthis1
compoundcouldbeputonanadhesivesubstanceandtransferredto;J
humansthroughskincontact.Edgewood'spreviousexperimentswith
thiscompoundhadapparentlybeendoneindifferentformsofadmin?j
isteringitbyintermuscularinjection,andothermeansoftestingit,|
fordifferentpurposes.
TheAgencywantedtoknow,couldthiscompoundbeplacedonan
adhesivesubstanceandtransferredtoskinforabsorptionthroughtheM
skin.Again,thedocumentationisverysketchyanditisdifficulttoij
tellexactlywhatwasdone,EdgewoodtooktheAgency'smoney,did
thetesting,andwassuccessfulinformulatingawaytoapplythisn
compoundtoanadhesive.|J
Theytesteditprimarilyonanimalsand,indeed,theindicationsare
thatalloftheresultsthatwerereportedtotheAgencyweretesting^
onanimals;primarily,Ithink,onmice.Thefundingforthiswas||
plannedtobeterminatedinJanuaryof1973.Thefundingapparently^
wasnotterminateduntilJuneof1973.
ThetestingaboutwhichyouaskedAdmiralTurneroccurredsome
timeinJuneof1973.Itisourconclusionfromthedocumentsavailable

tous,andfromthepeopleavailabletous,thatthetestingonthat
particularcompound,inJuneof1973,wasapartoftheAgency's
project.
Now,asIsay,Ihavenootherdocumentstosupportthatconclusion
thantheAgencyhastosupporttheirconclusionthatitwasnot.The
reasonIreachthatconclusionisthatEdgewoodhadcompletedits
testingofthiscompoundandhadnofurtherinterestinitatthetime
thattheAgencyaskedEdgewoodtotakeitupagainin1971.When
theAgencyaskedEdgewoodtotakeitupagain,theydidjtheydid
acertainamountoftestingandthattestingwascompletedinJune*..,,
of1973,whenthefundingfromthe/Agencywascompleted.
Thereare,Ithink,fivedocumentsrelevanttothis,whichyourstaff
hasbeenprovidedbytheAgency.First,isaCIAdocumentdated
May29,1973,whichisamemorandumforthedirectorofresearch
anddevelopment.ThesecondisanundatedCIAdocumententitled,
"InfluencingHumanBehavior."ThethirdisaCIAdocumentdated
February12,1975,whichisamemorandumfortherecordandatrip
reporttoEdgewoodtointerviewpeoplewithrespecttowhatthat
11ml#iA*ti.lt.1._..

150
1971,which,again^isamemorandumforthedirectorofresearchand
development.
Thosearethedocumentsthatwehave;thosearethedocuments
thattheAgencyhas;andthatiswhatweknowaboutthatprogram.
SenatorKennedy.Well,thatisveryhelpful.Igatherfromwhat
^yousaythattheinterestoftheDepartmentDODhadterminated

Cpriortotheactualtestingthatwasdone.
Ms.Siemer.Thatappearstobethecase.Thiscompoundwasone
ofalargenumberofcompoundsthatweresurveyedbyEdgewoodfor
variouspurposes.TheAgencycameandlookedatEdgewood'ssurvey,
identifiedthiscompoundasofparticularinteresttotheirpurpose,
andaskedthatfurtherworkbedone.
SenatorSchweiker.TherewasadestructionofCIAdocumentsin
January1973.Isthereanyindicationthatsignficantdocuments
relatingtothisprojectmighthavebeendestroyedwiththefilesthat
theCIA.destroyedaroundthatperiodoftime?
Ms.Siemer.Idonotknowthat,Senator.Ihavenowayofknowing
howtheAgencykepttheirrecordswithrespecttothis,orwhatrecords
onewouldexpecttofind.
SenatorKennedy.IthinkDr.Gottliebdidthatpriortothetime
heleft.Wearegoingtohearaboutthatinashorttime.
WerethereanyoccasionsthatyouknowofwheretheCIAdecided
thattheydidnotwanttosharetheresultsofsomeoftheseexperiments
withtheDepartmentofDefense,andwheretheytooktheprojects
outfromundertheDefenseDepartment'ssurveillance?
Ms.Siemer.Yes,Senator,andthatistheexperimentthatSenator
Schweikerreferredtowithrespecttoblastconcussion.TheNavy
hadsomeinterestinthatprojectbecausetheyhaveanongoingstudy
ofheadgearandprotectiveheadgear.
TheprojectbeganinOctober1954,anditwasatheoretical,physical
studyintendedtousefluidfilledflasksanddynamitetoseewhat
happenedtothefluidintheflaskwhentheimpactfromtheblasthit
them.ThatworkwasfundedbytheAgency,andwhenthecontractor
cameinwithafollowonproposal,theAgency'sdocumentsindicate
thattheydecidedtoterminatetheNavy'sinvolvementinthatpro

grambecausetheydoubtedtheNavy'scapabilitytomaintainthe
securityoftheprogram.
SenatorSchweiker.Dothedocumentsshowhowlongafterthe
Navy'sinvolvementterminatedthattheCIAcarriedonwiththe
tproject?
Ms.Siemer.Theydonot,andtheydonotshowthattheCIAdid
carryiton.TheydoshowthattheCIAterminatedtheNavyinvolve
mentand,specifically,theywereconcernedwiththepossibilityof
operatingaprogramsecurelyunderthepreviouscover,whichwasthe
OfficeofNavalResearch.
SenatorKennedy.Thatmeans,basically,theydidnottrustthem?
Ms.Siemer.IwouldhopethattheywouldtrusttheNavy,but
apparentlywhatitinvolvedwastheCIA'sdocumentsaysthatthis
workwouldinvolvehumanexperimentsofatypenoteasilyjustifiable
onmedicalortherapeuticgrounds.Theyalsonotedthattheywould
havetoclearanumberofNavypersonnel;anumberofNavypersonnel
wouldhavetoknowthatthisworkwasgoingon.Theydidnotwant
'""'""",.,.to,do^that.
SenatorKennedy.Whatyearwasthat?

&

151
Ms.Siemer.Thatwasin1956.
SenatorKennedy.Isee.

Ms;Siemer.So,theydecidedagainstclearingtheNavypersonnel,
andsincetheycouldnotruntheprogramwithoutclearingtheNavy
personnel,usingtheNavyasaconduit,theyterminatedtheNavy
involvementintheprogram.Now,youhaveheardtestimonythis,
morningthattheyalsoterminatedtheprogram.Wehavenowayof
knowingthatthatisthecase.
SenatorKennedy.Wehavebeenover,in1975,theDepartment
ofDefense'sprogramsinveryconsiderabledetail.Couldyoubriefly
describethekindsofresearchprojectsthatwereofinteresttothe
DODovertherecentperiodsoftime,andthesignificantresultsof
anythattheDepartmentofDefensederivedfromanyofthese
programs?
Ms.Siemer.Yes,Senator.TheprogramthatIdescribedat
Edgewood,whichterminatedin1973,isreallytheonlysignificant
recentprogramthatwasconducted,usingmilitaryfaculties.Andas
Isaid,thatprogramwassuccessfulinthesensethattheArmydevel
opedwhattheAgencyaskedthemtodevelop,andtheyweresuccess
fulindoingwhattheAgencyaskedthemtodo.Whetherthatcon
stitutesaproductorconstitutesacontribution,Idonotknow.
Theremainingprograms,asyoucanseefourofthemweieter
minatedintheearly1950'sor1960's,andthosearefourNavypro
grams,andthoseprogramsareprimarilywheretheNavyactedasa
conduitforCentralIntelligenceAgencyfunds.Letmejustreview
thosebrieflyforyou.
Therewerefourprogramsinwhichourrecordsindicatethatthe
Navyoperatedsolelyasachannelforfundstooutsidecontractors.
Thosearetheprogramsdescribedinmymemorandum,thefirstof
whichisasynthesisofanalogsofcertainkindsofstimulants.The
secondistheidentificationofanonaddictivesubstituteforcodeine.
ThethirdistheblastconcussionprojectwhichIhavejustdiscussed,
andthefourthistheadministrationofLSDtohumansubjects,

again,backintheearly1950's.
Thosefourprojects,thedocumentsindicate,theNavyoperated
solelyasaconduitoffunds.Twooftheremainingprogramswere
Armyprograms,andtherewasnohumantesting.Thoseprograms
thefirstisdescribedonpage4ofmymemorandum,andthatwas
theefforttoidentifydrugswithbehavioraleffects.ThisistheChick
wit,orMkchickwit,program,whichwaslookingtoidentifydevel
opmentsinEuropeortheFarEast.
Thesecondwasaprojecttodevelopadatabaseforcomputeruse
toeasilyaccessthelargeamountofinformationaboutvariousdrugs,
andEdgewoodcontributedtothedatabasethatwasusedbythe
AgencyforitsProjectOften.
SenatorKennedy.IguesstheyhadadivisionbetweentheAgency
andtheDOD,amatterwhichwereferredtoearlier.Also,duringthe
late1950's,therewasadecisionbyDODtosplitoffitstesting,in
termsofLSD,fromtheCIA,andthosearereferredtointheChurch
committeereport.
So,Ithinkthesignificanceisthatwehaveseeninthepastadivision
ofresponsibilityandtheseparationsofresponsibility,andtheabsence
ofcoordination.Andatleastintermsofthemostrecenttimes,we
haveseenacontinueddivision,intermsofresponsibility;aslateas

&i

I152
thismorning,atleastintermsofinterpretationaboutwhohadthe
responsibilityintheseparticularareasofMkchickwit,Search,and
,1Ultra.
Whatbenefitswerederivedfromtheseprograms?
Ms.Siemer.Theblastconcussionprogramthatwasconductedby
theNavyforayearresultedina17pageresearchreport,whichIam
informedwasavaluablecontribution.Thatresearcherhascontinued
^toworkinthatfield,andthatisafieldthatisofsubstantialusetothe
1military,becauseitinvolvesthedevelopmentofprotectiveheadgear.
!Theprojecttodevelopdatabasesforcomputeraccessalsohasa
substantialamountofuse.Asyouknow,thereisavastamountof
idataaboutdrugs,andtheirsideeffectsanddirecteffects,available,
Iandbeingabletoaccessthatinformationandretrieveitquicklyand
efficientlyisausefulcontribution.
_,,Theonlyotherprogramthatwasconductedbytheservicesisthe
programatEdgewoodwithrespecttoapplyingthiscompoundto
^adhesivesubstances,andwhetherthatwasusefulornotwouldhave
tocomefromtheAgency.Weweresuccessfulindoingwhattheyasked
ustodo,whichisdevelopingawayofapplyingittotheadhesive
substance,butwhethertheuseofanadhesivesubstanceisuseful,
wedonotknow.

>*SenatorChafee.Itseemstomethatinsomeoftheseexperiments,
thefactthattheyarenotuseful,itself,ishelpful.Anegativeanswer
cansometimesbeofassistance.
Thethingthathasbotheredmealittleis,forexample,thetesting
ofthisEA3167thatwasbeingdoneatEdgewoodArsenal,under
theArmy'sdirectionandwithouttheCIAinvolvement,atthe
beginning,anyway,anditseemstomethatrecordkeepinginthis
!wholebusinessseemstohavebeenhaphazard,atbest.
|Supposesomebodycomesalong5yearsfromnowandthinksthat
theremightbesomethingtoEA3167?Aretheygoingtostartall
......overagain,ordoessomebodyhavearecordthatshowsthiswasa
Jfailure?
Ms.Siemer.Therecordsavailableshowwhatthecompoundis,
chemically;showwhattheresultswereondogs,guineapigs,monkeys,
^andsoon,andsoalloftheresultsofthatresearchareavailable.As
sjtotheapplicationwhattheCentralIntelligenceAgencymadeof
whateverwasdoneforthisparticularapplicationatEdgewood,Ido
Inotknowwhatrecordsareavailableofthat.
IBut,theactualresultsofdogandmonkeyandmouseexperiments

1.0thatis,thatthemousedied,orthemonkeyhadparticulareffects
Ibelieveareavailable.
ISenatorChafee.Well,itseemstomefairlyimportanttohave
iithisinformationyoumentionedaretrievalsystem.Itisfairly
important,likewejustsaid,thatyoudonotgothroughthisallover
;';:]againwhensomebrightfellowcomesupwiththesuggestion.
^1Also,withreferencetothosetwomilitaryvolunteersthatwere
discussednow,wasthatunderCIA,orwasthatunderIwas
,goingtosay"you,"butIwillsaytheArmyIamnotsure.
|Ms.Siemer.Well,thatisthesubjectofthecurrentdiscussion,as
towhoseproblemitwas.Itismyconclusionfromthedocumentsthat
thatwasapartoftheClAprogram.Icannotsayitanymoredefini
jtivelythanAdmiralTurnercansayitishisconclusionitwasapartof
aDODprogram.

153
SenatorChafee.Thankyouverymuch.
SenatorSchweiker.Basedonyoursurveyofthedifferentprojects
thatweredonethroughtheDepartmentofDefense,Iwonderifyou
couldgiveusaroughestimateofhowmanyhumansubjectswereused
bytheDepartmentofDefenseinthesekindsofexperimentsoverthis
period.

Now,IamnottalkingaboutsituationsinwhichtheDepartmentof
DefensewasmerelyaconduitfortheCIA.Obviously,asyoupointout
inyourstatementtous,DODservedasaconduitinanumberof
instances.Ontheotherhand,thereweresomeexperimentsthatthe
DefenseDepartmentwasresponsiblefor,notasaconduit.Couldyou
givethecommitteeanykindofaroughestimateofthenumberof
humanbeingsthatwereinvolvedinthesekindsofexperimentsduring
thisperiod,mexperimentsthattheDepartmentofDefenseoroneof
itsbranchesorsubintelligencegroupswasrunning?*&
Ms.Siemer.Yes;Ithink,Senator,Icouldgiveyousomesketchyj
understandingthatIhavefromthedocuments.Oftheseeightpro
gramsinwhichtherewassomemilitaryparticipation,therearefour
inwhichtherewashumantesting,andoneinwhichtherewasaposfl
sibilityofhumantesting.If
ThefirstistheEdgewoodArsenalprogramthatwehavebeen
talkingabout,andthatisthiscompoundEA3167Priortothe^
Agency'sinvolvementin1971,therewastestingofthatcompoundinfj
adifferentformandfordifferentpurposesattheHolmesburgState
PrisoninPennsylvania.Thedocumentsindicatethatthatmayhave
involvedfrom5to12prisoners;onedocumentsays5,anotherone11
says12.&
TherewassubsequenttestingofthatcompoundattheEdgewood
laboratoriesinvolvingmilitaryvolunteers,andthatphaseofitmayf|
haveinvolvedasmanyas15persons.yj
SenatorSchweiker.Theywerewitting?

Ms.Siemer.Yes;theywere,Senator,andthatwaspriortothef.
Agency'sinvolvement.J
TheNavyprojectwithrespecttosynthesisofanalogsofcertain
stimulantsthedocumentsdonotindicatethatthatinvolvedhuman
testing,butitispossiblethatitdid.Iamunabletodeterminewhether1
itdidordidnot.TherelativeCIAdocumentindicatesthatthemeritsiJ
weregoingtobedeterminedontestsonmice.
ThesecondprogramconductedbytheNavy,whichwastheidentin
ficationofanonaddictivesubstituteforcodeine,wascarriedoutataJ
GovernmentagencyinKentucky.Wedonothaveanyindicationof
howmanypersonsthatwasconductedon,butthatwasaverysub*
stantialproject.TheCentralIntelligenceAgencyspentover$280,000||
onthatproject,andthatwasanaverageofbetween$34,000and^
$45,000ayear.So,theremayhavebeenasubstantialnumberof
peopleinvolvedinthat.|j
SenatorSchweiker.Again,weretheywittingorunwittingsuby
jects?
Ms.Siemer.Ihavenowayoftellingthat.Thoserecordswouldm
beavailableonlyfromtheAgency.Thisisaprograminwhichwe|j
that,theNavywasonlyaconduitforthefunds.

SenatorSchweiker.IsthatDr.IsbelPsworkthatyouaretalking,
about?||
Ms.Siemer.Yes;itis.a

154
ThethirdistheadministrationofLSDtohumansubjects.That
wasbegunin1952andcompletedin1956.Ourrecordsindicatethat
thereweresixknowingsubjectswhowereapartoftheresearchers'
ownstaffwhowereinvolvedinthat,andthatlateron,therewere
eightsubjectswhowereSovietdefectorswhoweretestedinEurope
Iamsorry.Thatispartofproject5.
Onproject4,thiswasdonebyCIA,andthosearetheonlyfacts
thatwehaveinourdocuments.
Onthe5th,theNavyprojectwhichwasdevelopmentofspeech
inducingdrugs,therewasatestofthosedrugsoneightSovietdefec
torsinEuropein1952,IthinkinAugustorSeptemberof1952
andthetestwasapparentlyafailure,becausetheycouldnotformu
latethesubstanceinawaythatthedefectorscouldnottasteitand,
therefore,theycouldnotbekeptunwittingofthetest.
SenatorKennedy.SometimesIthinkthatmighthaveleakedout
fromovermtheSenate,thatspeechinducingdrug.
Ms.Siemer.Thatisit.Thatiswhatweknowfromthedocuments
wehaveavailable.
SenatorSchweiker.Now,isthisworkthatyouhavedescribed
prettywellconfinedtoprogramsconductedinconnectionwiththe
CIA?Inotherwords,myquestionalsodirecteditselfandIam

notsureifIhavemadeitcleartononCIAsponsoredwork.Are
youincludingthatinyouranswer?
Ms.Siemer.No,Iamnot,Senator.ThenonCIAsponsored
workwaspreviouslyreportedoyouin1975,andyouhaveour
InspectorGeneral'sreportonthatandthatis,sofarasweknow,a
completereport.
SenatorSchweiker.OE.Now,inconnectionwiththat,acouple
ofyearsago,weweretoldbytheDefenseDepartmentthatthey
wouldmakeeveryefforttocontactpeoplewhohadbeenusedas
subjectsofDODresearch.Ithinktherewereseveralthousandsof
peopleinvolved,asIrecall,atleastwellovera1,000,thoughIcannot
beprecise,withoutchecking.TheDepartmentwasgoingtomake
everyefforttocontactthepeoplewhoweretestedintheprogram.I
realizethatyouarenewonboardandwerenotinvolvedwiththis
initially,somyquestionmaybesomethingyouhavetoreportback
tousonalittlebitlater.
CouldyouupdatethiscommitteeonwhetherDODhasbeen
successfulincontactingformersubjectsofresearch?Howeffective
havetheDepartment'seffortstofollowupandinformthesubjects
ofthosetestsbeen?Thewitnessesatourprevioushearingsdid,I
believe,makethatcommitmenttous.
Ms.Siemer.Idohaveareportonthatforyou,Senator.This
reportisasofAugust22,1977,whichisthedateofyouroriginal
hearingsonthissubject.Asofthatdate,wehadcompletedmedical
examinationson127oftheknownparticipants;176hadbeencon
tactedandhadagreedtoanexamination,buttheexaminationhad
notyetbeenscheduled;146hadbeenlocated,buttheyhadnot
madeadecisionasyetastowhethertobeexamined;22werede
ceased,andwewereabletofinddeathcertificatesfor12ofthose,
buthaveotherinformationthat22ofthemweredeceased;39refused
examination,and177wearestillworkingonlocating.

156

SenatorSchweiker.Iwanttocomplimentyouonyourtestimony.1
Youcertainlyhavebeenverydirect,specific,andcandidwithus.It'J
isobviousthatyouhavedoneyourhomeworkandcertainlytriedto
complywiththeintentofthecommittee'srequestfortestimonyin
areasofourresponsibility,andwethankyouforthat.
SenatorChafee.Mr.Chairman,justoneotherquestion.About
thosetwomilitaryvolunteersthatwereinvolvedin1973,wasthere
anyfollowuponthem,regardlessofwhowasresponsibleforthe
experimentation,eitherDODorCIA?
Ms.Siemeb.Itismyunderstanding,Senator,thattheyareincluded
inthefollowupstatisticsthatIhavejustgivenyou.~
SenatorChafee.Now,Ijustwonder,outofcuriosity,wouldthej
resultsofthatexaminationgobackintothefileatEdgewood,sothatiJ
theexperimentationisthenwrappedupandthedocumentationon
theexperimentationcompleted?fl
Ms.Siemeb.Thefollowupstudyisbeingdoneasaseparatestudy,jjj
buttheinformationdevelopedfromitcanbeaccessedthrough

computersandotherrecordsbyresearchers.Wehaveprivacyprob<m
lems,andthatis,youhavetobeabletogeneralizethedata,andI
cannottransmitdataaboutaspecificperson.
SenatorChafee.Thankyou.Mr.Chairman,Iwouldliketoaddmy
congratulationsonthetestimonytoday.Youcertainlyhadallther|
facts.IJ
SenatorKennedy.Well,allofusareimpressed.Youobviously
havepersonallytakenthisandtheDepartmenthasasamatterofjj
veryconsiderablepriorityandimportance,anditisshownbyyourfj
familiaritywiththematerialandtheresponsivenesstothequestions.
Ms.Siemer.Thankyou,Senator.'
[Thefollowingmaterialwassubmittedfortherecord:]|

156
Septerr.ber20,1977
HonorableEdwardM.Kennedy
UnitedStatesSenate>
Chairman,SenateSubcommitteeon
^Health,&ScientificResearch
Washington,D.C.20510

DearMr..Chairsan:
YourlettertotheSecretaryofDefenseofAugust10,
1977requestedallclassifiedandunclassifieddocuments
relatinginanywaytohunanexperimentationinconnection
withCentralIntelligenceAgencyprojectsdesignatedbvthe
codeWordsMKSEARCH,MKOTTENandMIxCHICKWIS.
Pursuanttothatrequest,theOfficeofGeneralCounsel
coordinatedasearchofthefilesmaintainedbytheAmy,
tlavyandAirForcefrost1950tothepresent.?hatsearch
vascompletedonSeptember15,1977andamemorandumwas
preparedfortheSecretarysummarizingtheresults.
Ihaveenclosedaccpyofthat.enorandunandcopiesof
eachofthedocumentsretrievedfromDepartmentofDefense
filrss.Itappearsfronttheavailabledocumentsthatpro
jectsMXSEA3CH,MKOFTEHandMXCHICICWITweredirected,con
trolledandfundedbytheCentralIntelligenceAgency.Much
oftheparticipationofthemilitarydepartmentswassolely
asaconduitoffund3fromtheCentralIntelligenceAgency
tooutsidecontractors.Asubstantialamountofthi3
participationwasterru.natedinthe1950'sand190*3.The
remainingactivitywasterminatednolaterthan1973.
Allofthemilitarydepartmentdocumentsidentifiedin
AppendicesAand3havebeendeclassified.Theaenorandura
referstoandappendscertainCentralIntelligenceAgency
docunentsthathavenotbeendeclassified.IftheAgency
declassifiesthosedocuments,thememorandumshouldalsobe
declassified.
IftheSubcommitteerequiresfurtherinformationor
assistanceinthisnatter,pleaseletmeknew.

Sincerely,
EnclosuresDeanneC.Sieraer

157

GcNcRAlCOUNSELOFTHEDEPARTMENTOFDEFENSE
WASHINGTON,0.C.70301

September20,1977

MEMORANDUMFORTHESECRETARYOFDEFENSE
SUBJECT:ExperimentationProgramsConductedbythe
DepartmentofDefenseThatHadCIASponsor
shiporParticipationandThatInvolvedthe
AdministrationtoHumanSubjectsofDrugs
IntendedforMindcontrolorBehavior
modificationPurposes
OnAugust8,1977yourequestedthattheOfficeof
GeneralCounselcoordinateasearchofDepartmentofDefense
recordstodeterminetheextentofDepartmentofDefense
participationinthreeprojectsidentifiedbytheDirector
ofCentralIntelligenceonAugust3,1977asincludingthe
administrationofdrugstohumansubjectsformindcontrol

orbehaviormodificationpurposes.Inaddition,you
requestedthatthesearchattempttoidentifyanyother
projectconductedorparticipatedinbytheDepartmentof
DefenseinwhichtherewasanyCentralIntelligenceAgency
involvementandwhichincludedtheadministrationofdrugs
tohumansubjectsformindcontrolorbehaviormodification
purposes.Thatsearchwasconductedduringtheperiod
August15,1977throughSeptember15,1977andcoveredthe
recordsoftheMilitaryDepartmentsfrom1950tothe
present.
Theresultsofthesearchindicatethattherewerethree
suchprogramsinwhichtheArmyparticipatedovertheperiod
1969to1973;fivesuchprogramsinwhichtheNavypartici
patedovertheperiod1947to1973;andnosuchprogramsin
whichtheAirForceparticipated.Infouroftheseeight
programstheDepartmentofDefense*participationwaslimited
tochannelingfundstooutsidecontractorsinorderthatthe
sponsorshipoftheCentralintelligenceAgencybecovered.
Intwooftheremainingfourprogramstherewasnotesting
onhumansubjects.Fouroftheprogramswereterminatedin
the1950's,orearly1960'sandtheremainderwereterminated
in1973.

158

Itappearsfromthedocumentsthatthethreecodeword
projectsoftheCentralIntelligenceAgencyidentifiedby
theDirectorinhistestimonyasbasicallyDepartmentof
Defenseprojectswere,infact,planned,directedand
controlledbytheCentralIntelligenceAgency.Eachof
theseprojectsandtheparticipationofthemilitary
servicesisdescribedbelow.
I.CodewordProjectsIdentifiedbytheCentralIntelligence
Agency
IntestimonyonAugust3,1977,beforeajointsession
oftheSenateSelectCommitteeonIntelligenceandtheSenate
SubcommitteeonHealthandScientificResearch,theDirector
ofCentralIntelligencereportedthattheCentralIntelligence
Agencyhadlocatedanumberofboxesofdocuments,consisting
largelyoffinancialrecords,relatingtoexperimentsusing
humansubjectsinwhichdrugsweretestedformindcontroland
behaviormodificationpurposes.TheDirectortestifiedthat
itappearedthatthreeoftheprojectsdescribedbythese
documentsprojectsdesignatedMKSEARCH,MKOFTENand
MKCHICKWITwereDepartmentofDefenseprogramswithwhich
theCentralIntelligenceAgencyhadhadsomecontact.The
Directoralsodescribedthreeotherprojectsdesignated
MKULTRA,MKDELTAandMKNAOMIwhichwereprimarilyCentral
IntelligenceAgencyprojectsbutwhichmighthavehadsome
DepartmentofDefenseinvolvement.
Itappearsfromtheavailabledocumentsthatthese
projectscoversubjectmattersasfollows:

MKDELTA:Thiswasapparentlythefirstproject
establishedbyCIAinOctober,1952,forthe
useofbiochemicalsinclandestineoperations.
Itmayneverhavebeenimplementedoperationally.
MKULTRA:ThiswasasuccessorprojecttoMKDELTA
establishedinApril,1953,andterminatingsome
timeinthelate1960's,probablyafter1966.
Thisprogramconsideredvariousmeansofcontrol
linghumanbehavior.Drugswereonlyoneaspect
ofthisactivity.
MKNAOMI:Thisprojectbeganinthe1950*sandwas
terminated,atleastwithrespecttobiological
projects,in1969.Thismayhavebeenasuccessor

159

projecttoMKDELTA.Itspurposewasto
stockpileseverelyincapacitatingand
lethalmaterials,andtodevelopgadgetry
forthedisseminationofthesematerials.
g"MKSEARCH:Thiswasapparentlyasuccessor

projecttoMKULTRA,whichbeganin1965
andwasterminatedin1973.Theobjective
oftheprojectwastodevelopacapability
tomanipulatehumanbehaviorinapredict
ablemannerthroughtheuseofdrugs.
MKCHICKWITorCHICKWIT:Thiswasapparently
apartoftheMKSEARCHprogram.Its
objectivewastoidentifynewdrug
rdevelopmentsinEuropeandAsiaandto
obtaininformationandsamples.
MKOFTENorOFTEN:Thiswasalsoapparently
apartoftheMKSEARCHproject.Its
objectivewastotestthebehavioraland
toxicologicaleffectsofcertaindrugs
onanimalsandhumans.
BeginningonAugust4,1977,ArmyandNavyinvestigators
undertookasearchoftheboxesofCentralIntelligence
AgencyrecordsidentifiedbytheCIAcodewordsOFTENand
CHICKWITinordertolocatedocumentsrelevanttopossible
DepartmentofDefenseinvolvementintheseprojects.On
September7,1977,theAgencypermittedDoDrepresentatives
tosearchadditionalboxescontainingMKULTRArecords.Both
setsofmaterialsconsistedofapprovalsofadvancesoffunds,
vouchersandaccountingrecordsrelatingtotheseprojects.
II.Army?roqrams
ItappearsfromtheavailabledocumentsthattheArmywas
involvedinoneaspectoftheCentralIntelligenceAgency
projectdesignatedasMKCHICKHITandtwoaspectsofacounter

partprojectdesignatedasMKOFTEN.Thedocumentsearchis
describedinsectionAbelow,andeachoftheArmyprograms
isdescribedinsectionBbelow.
A.Recordssearched
>ThesearchofArmyrecordswascoordinatedbytheDirector
oftheStaff.ThesearchincludedthefilesortheEdgewood

160

ArsenalResearchLaboratories,theDugwayProvingGrounds,
theDepartmentofDefenseInvestigativeService(withrespect
totheSpecialOperationsDivisionatFortDetrick),the
DepartmentoftheArmyInspectorGeneral,theArmyactivity
x,,intheU.S.BiologicalWarfareProgram,andtheArmy
*"IntelligenceAgency.
B.Programsidentified
(1)Identificationofnewdrugswithbehavioral

effects
Thisprojectbeganin1967andwasterminatedin1973.
ItwascarriedoutprimarilybyacontractorinCalifornia.
TheprojectwasapparentlyfundedjointlybytheArmy,
throughEdgewoodArsenalResearchLaboratories,andthe
CentralIntelligenceAgency.Thefundscontributedbythe
AgencywereusedbyEdgewoodforpaymentstoaprivate
contractor.Thisprojectwasapartoftheproject
designatedasMKCHICKWIT.
Thisprojectwasinvolvedsolelywiththecollection
ofinformation.Notestingonhumansubjectswasconducted.
TheCentralIntelligenceAgencyapparentlyprovided$12,084
in1967and$5,000in1969forthisproject.Theextentof
theArmy'sfinancialcontributiontothisprojectisunknown.
(2)Databasesonevaluationofpharmacological
products
Thisprojectapparentlybeganin1968andwascompleted
by1971.ItwascarriedoutbytheEdgewoodArsenalResearch
Laboratories.TheCentralIntelligenceAgencytransferred
fundstotheArmyforthispurposein1968,1970and1971.
ThisprojectwasapartoftheprojectdesignatedasMKOFTEN.
Edgewoodcreateddatabasesforcomputerusewithrespect
toinformationonpharmacologicalproducts.Theseincluded
humanclinicaldataobtainedfromvolunteersubjectsinother
Edgewoodprojects,notconnectedwiththeCentralIntelligence
Agency.ThesedatabaseswereacquiredbytheAgencyinan
efforttoenhanceitscomputercapabilitytodetectand
nullifymanipulationofU.S.personnelbymeansofthese
materials.ThetwodatabasesprovidedbyEdgewood,arising

161

outofitswork,weresupplementedbythreeotherdatabases
createdbyothercontractorsortheAgency.^J
Thisprojectinvolvedonlythetransferofinformation
tocomputerusableform.Notestingonhumansubjectswas
conducted.Theamountoffundingisnotknown.
(3)Determinationofclinicaleffectsofa
glycolateclasschemical
Thisprojectbeganin1971andwasterminatedin1973.
ItwascarriedoutbytheEdgewoodArsenalResearchLabora
toriesandwasfundedbytheCentralIntelligenceAgency.
ThisprojectwasapartoftheprojectdesignatedasMKOFTEN.
ItappearsfromtheavailabledocumentsthatEdgewood
hadbeentestinganumberofincapacitatingagentsinits
ownprogramswithoutCentralIntelligenceAgencyparticipation.
EdgewoodidentifiedacompounddesignatedasEA#3167as
particularlyeffectiveandtesteditonanimals.Edgewood
alsoengagedinclinicaltestingonhumanvolunteersatthe
HolmesburgStatePrisoninPhiladelphia,Pennsylvania,using
prisonersastestsubjectsandattheEdgewoodlaboratories
usingmilitarypersonnelastestsubjects.Itappearsthat
allofthetestsubjectswerevolunteersandthatstringent
medicalsafeguardsandfollowupprocedureswereused.
In1971,theCentralIntelligenceAgencyreviewedprior
EdgewoodworkandidentifiedEA#3167asrelevanttothe
MKOFTENprogram.TheAgencysetupajointeffortwith
Edgewoodtopursuefurthertestingofthiscompound.In

1971,theAgencytransferredtoEdgewood$37,000forthis
purpose.MostofthetestingunderCIAsponsorshipwaswith
animals.TheprimaryeffortwastodeterminewhetherEA23167
couldbeusedeffectivelyifappliedtotheskinthroughsome
typeofadhesivetape.Therewasonlyoneexperimentthat
involvedhumansubjects.InJune,1973,twomilitaryvolunteers
wereapparentlytestedusingEA#3167.Thedocumentsdonot
giveanydetailswithrespecttothesetests.

VTheNavycontributedasimilardatabasetotheMKOFTEN
projectbutitappearsfromtheavailabledocumentsthatthe
worktocreatethedatabasewasundertakenasanindependent
NavyprojectnotdesignedforanyCIAuse,andthattherewas
notransferofCIAfundstotheNavyforthispurpose.

1
1

I
I

162

C.Documentsreleased
TheArmyhasidentifiedninedocumentsrelatedtothejjj

programsdescribedinSectionB.Alistidentifyingthose
*documentsissetoutinAppendixA.ti
ta.'.%
III.NavyPrograms'
|
Itappearsfromtheavailable.documentsthattheNavywas|
notinvolvedinanyaspectoftheCentralIntelligenceAgencyf
projectsdesignatedMKSEARCHandMKCHICKWIT.Itappearsthat1
|theNavydidactasafinancialintermediarythroughwhichthe|
ICentralIntelligenceAgencydealtwithanoutsidecontractor|
thatconductedoneresearcheffortthatwasapartofthe|
MKOFTENproject.ItalsoappearsthattheNavyconducted,iI
Jdirectlyorthroughcontractors,fiveprogramsinwhichthere|
iwasCentralIntelligenceAgencysponsorshiporparticipation|
!andwhichincludedtheadministrationofdrugstohumansub|
jectsformindcontrolorbehaviormodificationpurposes.The|
jrecordsthatweresearchedaredescribedinsectionAbelow.f
|EachoftheprojectsdiscoveredisdescribedinsectionB
'below.|

!A.RecordsSearched|
*"
jTheSpecialAssistanttotheSecretaryoftheNavyf
coordinatedthesearchofNavyrecords.Thesearchcovered|
archivalmaterialwithrespecttotheactivitiesofthe|
1OfficeofNavalIntelligence,BureauofMedicineandSurgery,I
jandtheOfficeofNavalResearch.f
B.Programsidentified
(1)Synthesisofanalogsofcertaincentralv
nervoussystemstimulants
Thisprojectbeganin1971andwasterminatedinJanuary,|
1973.ItwasperformedbyacontractorlocatedinMassachusetts.
TheinvolvementoftheNavywasonlyasaconduitforfunds
betweenthecontractorandtheCentralIntelligenceAgency.|
,Someofthefundingdocumentsidentifythisprojectasapart|
IofprojectOFTEN.f;
!I
InDecember,1970,thecontractorcontactedtheCentral|
IntelligenceAgencyprojectofficerdirectlyandsuggested

jresearchworkontwotypesofdrugs:analogsofDOPAand|
j.;dopamineandanalogsofpicrotoxin.Aftertheworkwasf
undertaken,thecontractoraddedathirdaspect,thestudyoffi

163

analogsofthehallucinogenibogaine.InMarch,1972,the
contractorsuggestedenlargingthescopeoftheworktoinclude
narcoticantagonistsorblockingagents.Onedocumentindi
catesthat"Theoverallobjectiveofthesestudiesisto
synthesizenewclassesofphanhocdlogicallyactivedrugs
affectingthecentralnervoussystemsoastoevaluatetheir
modificationofman'sbehavior."(Doc.No.CIA1.)The
purposeofcreatinganalogs,ratherthanusingtheparent
compounds,wastofinddrugs"whichwillbemorespecificir.
actionaswellasmorereliable."(Doc.No.CIA2.)
TheCentralIntelligenceAgencymayhavetransmittedas
muchas$117,938forthisprojecttotheOfficeofNaval
ResearchduringtheperiodFebruary26,1971throughJune23,
1372.TheCentralIntelligenceAgencyauthorizationdocument
stated:"ThisprojectisfundedthroughtheOfficeofNaval
Research.ThisarrangementprotectstheAgency'sassociation
withthisareaofresearchandprovidesthecontractorwith
crediblesponsorship.Theworkwillbeunclassified,but
Agencyassociationwillbeconfidential."(Doc.No.CIA1,3.)
Thereisnoindicationinthedocumentsavailableto
theNavythathumantestingwasperformedbytheresearchers.
Oneofthedocumentsreports:"Therelativemeritsofthe

syntheticcompoundswillbedeterminedinmice,andinforma
tionastotheunderlyingbiochemicalbasisfortheobserved
pharmacologicalactivitieswillbededucedfromthecompara
tiveeffectsofthevariouscompounds."(Doc.No.CIA8.)
Oneoftheresearcher'sprogressreportsindicatesan
intentiontopublishtheresultsofthefirstphaseofthis
work,onanalogsofDOPAanddopamine,ataprofessional
meetinginthefallof1972butthereisnoindicationthat
publicationwasaccomplished.(Doc.No.N2.)
(2)Identificationofnonaddictivesubstitutefor
codeine
Thisprojectbeganin1954andwascontinuedatleast
until1964.Itwasperformedatthefacilitiesofanother
governmentagencylocatedinKentucky.Theinvolvementof
theNavywasonlyasaconduitforfundsbetweentheCentral
IntelligenceAgenqyandaresearcherwhowasassociatedwith
afederalgovernmentagency.Oneofthefundingdocuments
identifiesthisaspartofprojectHKPILOT.

164

AccordingtotheinformationavailabletotheNavy,the
purposeoftheprojectwastofindanonaddictivesubstitute
forcodeine.TheworkwasdoneattheAddictiveResearch
.*>Center,U.S.PublicHealthServiceHospital,inLexington,
**Kentucky.Itisunclearfromtheinformationavailable
totheNavywhethertheresearcherwasanindependentscien
tistusinggovernmentfacilitiesoragovernmentemployee.
Itappearsthattheresearchertestedsome800compounds
onaddictedpatients.Thereisnoindicationinthedocuments
astothenumberofpersonsinvolvedorthecompoundstested.
Threecompoundswereretainedandallarenowcommondrugs:
darvonwhichisusedasapainkiller;dextromethorphanwhich
isusedincoughsyrup;andlomotilwhichisusedasan
antidiarrheadrug.
TheCentralIntelligenceAgencytransferredatleast
$282,215totheOfficeofNavalResearchforthisprogram
withinstructionstomakethefundsavailabletotheresearcher
attheU.S.PublicHealthServiceHospital.Theprojectcosts
appeartohavebeenbetween$34,000and$45,000peryear.
Thesedocumentsspecifythat"theinterestofCIAinthis
projectisclassifiedSecretandisnotto.berevealed...."
(e.g..Doc.No.N18.)
(3)Identificationofeffectsofblastconcussion
ThisprojectbeganinOctober,1954andwasterminated,
atleastwithrespecttotheNavy,inDecember,1955.Itwas
performedbyacontractorlocatedinCalifornia.Theinvolve
mentoftheNavywasprimarilyasaconduitoffundsfromthe
CentralIntelligenceAgencytothecontractor.Asmallamount
ofNavyfundsmayalsohavebeenusedforthiscontract.In
December,1955thisprojectwasterminatedasfarastheNavy

involvementwasconcernedanditthereafterapparentlybecame
subproject54oftheMXULTRAproject.
WhiletheNavywasinvolvedwiththisprojectitdidnot
includeanydrugtestingandapparentlydidnotincludeany
testingonhumans.Thecontractorwa3investigatinganew
theoryofthedynamicsofbrainconcussion.Fluidfilled
flaskswereusedtomeasuretheeffectofblastimpactsfrom
a21/2lb.chargeofdynamite10feetaway.Theresults
ofthisworkwerepublishedin1957ina17pagereport
entitled"OntheImpactThresholdsofBrainConcussion."
(Doc.N19.)
f

165

TheCentralIntelligenceAgencytransferred$20,000to
theOfficeofNavalResearchforuseonthisproject.The
OfficeofNavalResearchnayhavecontributedasmuchas
$5,000ofitsownfundstothisproject.
InDecember,1955,thecontractorsubmittedaproposal
foracontinuationoftheresearchfor1956.Inthat
proposalthecontractorpointedoutthatbrainconcussion"is
alwaysfollowedbyamnesiafortheactualmomentofthe
accident"andsuggestedthat"ifatechniqueweredevisedto
inducebrainconcussionwithoutgivingeitheradvancewarning
orcausingexternalphysicaltrauma,thepersonuponrecovery
wouldbeunabletorecallwhathadhappenedtohim.Under
theseconditionsthesametechniqueofproducingthe
concussioncouldbereusedmanytimeswithoutdisclosureof
itsnature."(Doc.No.CIA4.)Indiscussingthetechniques

envisioned,thecontractordescribednondrugmeansfor
inducingconcussion,butwentontodescribeatechniquefor
providingimmunitytoconcussionthat"involvestheintroduction
ofasmallquantityofgas,approximately1cc,intothespinal
cord."(Doc.No.CIA4.)
Whenthisprojectproposalwasreceived,CIAdecidedto
convertittotheMKULTRAprojectratherthanusingtheNavy
asaconduitforfunds.AmemorandumdatedJanuary10,1956
explained:
Thefirstyear'sworkonthisprogram
wasfinancedthroughtheNavyforseveral
reasons....
When[thecontractor)wasclearedand
informedofourtrueinterestsinthis
research,thewholescfpeoftheproject
changed,anditbecameapparentthat
developmentsmightbeexpectedinthe
secondyearwhichwouldmakeitimpossi
bletooperatetheprogramsecurelyunder
thepreviouscover.Specifically/human
experimentsofatypenoteasilyjustifiable
onmedicaltherapeuticgroundswouldbe
involved....
Forthereasonsgivenaboveandbecause
thisprojectinageneralwaywillbeginto
becomeinvolvedinthesubjectsofinterro
gationandsomeaspectsofbrainwashing,

166

10
TSS/CDhasdecidedthatitshouldbefunded
throughprojectKKULTRAratherthanbyless
securerr.ethods.
(Doc.No.CIA5.)Theprojectthereafterbecamesubprojec=
^54oftheMKULTRAprojectandthereisnoindicationoffurtner
AinvolvementbytheNavy.
(4)AdministrationofLSDtohumansubjects
Thisprojectbeganin1952andwasapparentlycompleted
by1956.ItwasperformedbyaresearcherlocatedinNewYork.
NavyislistedasasponsorinonlyoneCIAdocumentprepared
atalaterdate,andnototherwisecorroborated.IfNavywas
involved,itwassolelyasaconduitforfundsbetweenthe
CentralIntelligenceAgencyandtheresearcher.Thisproject
hasbeenidentifiedassubprojects7,27and40ofthe
MKULTRAproject.

(5)Developmentandadministrationofspeech
inducingdrugs
Thisprojectapparentlybeganin1947andendedin1953.
ItwasperformedprimarilybyacontractorlocatedinNew
Yorkand,inoneaspect,bytheNavyatalocationinEurope.
TheinvolvementoftheCentralIntelligenceAgencywasappar
entlyonlyasaninterestedobserver.Theprojectwasfunded
bytheNavythroughtheNavalMedicalResearchInstitute.
TheCentralIntelligenceAgencyrecordsofthisprojectare
apparentlyintheBLUEBIRDandARTICHOKEprojectfiles.
TheNavyarrangedin1950toobtainmarijuanaandheroin
fromtheFBIforuseinexperimentsandenteredacontract
witharesearcherinNe**Yorktodevelopdrugsandinstrumen
tationforuseininterrogationofprisonersofwar,defectors
andsimilarpersons.Thesecuritycoverfortheprojectwas
astudyofmotionsickness.Thestudybeganwithsixofthe
researcher'sstaffasknowingvolunteers.Theprojectwas
expandedtocoverbarbituatesandbenzedrine.Othersub
stanceswereevaluated.
InAugust,1952theOfficeofNavalIntelligenceinformed
theCentralIntelligenceAgencythatithaddevelopeddrugs
thatmighthavethedesiredcharacteristicsandwasaboutto
testthemonhumansubjectswhowouldbeunawareofthetest.
Thedrugswereadministeredtoabouteightsubjects,eachof
whomwasaSovietdefector,andeachtestwasdoneinEurope

167

li

inSeptember,1952.Thetestswereapparentlynotsatisfac
torybecausethedrugsusedhadsuchabittertastethatitwas
notpossibletokeepthehumansubjectsfromknowingabout
thetest.
BySeptember,1952itwasapparentthatthisprojectwas
notproducingusefulresultsandtheNavybegantoconsider
endingit.By1953mostworkhadapparentlybeenphasedout.
C.Documentsreleased
TheNavyhasidentified42documentswhicharerelated
totheprogramsdescribedinsectionB.Alistidentifying
thosedocumentsissetoutinAppendixB.
IV.AirForcePrograms
ItappearsfromtheavailabledocumentsthattheAir
ForcewasnotinvolvedinanyaspectoftheCentralIntelli
genceAgencyprojectsdesignatedMKSEARCH,MKOFTENand
MKCHICKWIT.ItalsoappearsthattheAirForcewasnot
involvedinanyprograminwhichtherewasCentralIntelligence
Agencysponsorshiporparticipationandwhichincludedthe
administrationofdrugstohumansubjectsformindcontrol
orbehaviormodificationpurposes.
A.Recordssearched
ThesearchwasconductedbytheOfficeoftheAssistant
SecretaryoftheAirForceforResearch,Developmentand
Logistics.TheAirStaffofficesinwhichrecordswere
searchedare:TheSurgeonGeneral,theDeputyChiefofStaff
forResearchandDevelopment,theAirForceOfficeofSpecial

Investigations,andtheAirForceIntelligenceService.
B.Programsidentified
Therewerenorecordsorinformationfoundrelatingto
projectsdesignatedMKSEARCH,MKOFTENorMKCHICKWITor
correspondingtothedescriptionofthesubjectmatterof
thoseprojectsavailablethroughCentralIntelligenceAgency
files.

3
1

168

12

Therewerenodocumentsorinformationfoundindicating
anyCIAinvolvementinanyexperimentationprogramconducted

bytheAirForcethatincludedadministrationofdrugsto
humansubjects.
C.Documentsreleased
None.
VI.CurrentPrograms
Therearenoprogramscurrentlymaintainedbyany
DepartmentofDefensecomponentorcontractorinvolving
drugtestingonhumansubjectsinwhichtheCentralIntelli
genceAgencyisinanywayinvolved.
AllcurrentDepartmentofDefenseprogramsinvolvingthe
useofinvestigationaldrugsonhumans,includingitscontrac
torprograms,havebeenapprovedbytheFoodandDrugAdminis
tration.

A^<L**UV.

*Au>;tuA,

Editor'sNote:Duetothevoluminouscontentoftheappendixes
mentionedirthismemorandum,andintheinterestofecqhomy,
thematerialvasretainedinthefilesofthesubcommittee.

1691

SenatorKennedy.Weappreciateyourtestimony.Wewilltryand
work,withouttakingalotmoreofyourtimeIamsureyouhaveveryfl
manyimportantthingsjusttotryandresolvethebasickindsofJ
conflicts,sothatinourreport,weareable,totheextentthatwecan,
toputsomeofthesematterstorest.a
Youhavebeenvery,veryresponsiveandveryhelpfultothecom|j
mittee,andweappreciateyourpresencehere.
SenatorChafee.MaintainingthehighstandardsoftheDepartment_
ofDefense.jj
SenatorKennedy.WewillrecessandgatherintheanteroominI
ordertohearfromDr.Gottlieb.
[Whereupon,abriefrecesswastaken.]m
[Thehearingwasreconvenedintheanteroom.]J
SenatorKennedy.Wewillcometoorder.
Iwouldaskifyouwouldbekindenoughtorise.
Doyouswearthetestimonyyouwillgiveisthetruth,thewholefl
truth,sohelpyou,God?^
Dr.Gottlieb.Ido.
Mr.Lenzner.Iwantedtosay,onbehalfofDr.Gottlieb,howmuchfl

weappreciatethecourtesiesthatthecommitteehasextendedinJ
respondingtohishealthandcardiacproblems.Ialsowanttoexpress
ourappreciationtothecommitteestaff,toDr.Horowitz,Walter^
Sheridan,andJimMitchiefortheassistancetheyhaveprovidedinI
reviewingthematerialsthatthecommitteeaskedustoreviewpriorto
Dr.Gottlieb'stestimony.
Thedoctorhasgotabriefstatementhewouldliketoreadwiththefl
committee'spermissionbecauseIthinkithelp^placeinperspectiveli
someoftheissueswebelievethecommitteeisinterestedinpursuing.
SenatorKennedy.TherecordwillshowthatDr.Gottliebhasbeenrj
sworn,andtheattorney,Mr.Lenzner,hasindicatedthatDr.GottliebJ
wouldliketoreadhisstatement.Thenwewillgetintothequestion
period.
Dr.Gottlieb.

STATEMENTOFSIDNEYGOTTLIEB,M.D.,FORMERCIAAGENT,AC
COMPANIEDBYTERRYF.LENZEB,ESQ.,WALD,HABKBADEB&
BOSS,WASHINGTON,B.C.
Dr.Gottlieb.M[ynameisSidneyGottliebandIresideinCali
fornia.IamappearingatthishearingasIhaveappearedinothersin
J?thepast,voluntarilyandpreparedtoofferwhateverconstructive

^testimonymadepossiblebymybackgroundandremembranceof
thingspast.
IwouldliketofirstcommentonprojectMKULTRA.
Tothebestofmyrecollection,severalresearchinquirieswhich
muchlatercametobeorganizedunderthecryptonymMKULTRA.
werebeguninabout1952.Theirpurposewastoinvestigatewhether
andhowitwaspossibletomodifyanindividual'sbehaviorbyconvert
means.Thecontextinwhichthisinvestigationwasstartedwasthatof
theheightofthecoldwarwiththeKoreanwarjustwindingdown;
withtheCIAorganizingitsresourcestoliberateEasternEuropeby
paramilitarymeans;andwiththethreatofSovietaggressionvery
realandtangible,asexemplifiedbytherecentBerlinairlift.

170
InthejudgmentoftheCIA,therewastangibleevidencethatboth
theSovietsandtheRedChinesemightbeusingtechniquesofaltering
humanbehaviorwhichw:renotunderstoodbytheUnitedStates
andwhichwouldhaveimplicationsofnationalsurvivalinthecontext
ofnationalsecurityconcernsatthattime.Itwasfelttobemandatory
andoftheutmosturgencyforourintelligenceorganizationtoestab
^lishwhatwaspossibleinthisfieldonahighprioritybasis.
Tomentionjustafewexamples,therewasaconcernaboutthe
apparentmanipulatedconversionsofAmericansinternedinRed
Chinaforaveryshorttime;therewasalsoaconcernaboutapparently
irrationalremarksmadebyaseniorAmericandiplomatreturning
fromtheSovietUnion;perhapsmostimmediateandurgentinour

mindswastheapparentbuyingupoftheworldsupplyof,atthat
time,littleknownnewpsychogenicmaterialLSD;lastly,therewas
agrowinglibraryofdocumentedinstancesofroutineusebythe
SovietSecurityServicesofcovertlyadministereddrugs.Thislist,
bytheway,hasgrownandbeenaddedtouptothetimeliefttheCIA.
Iacceptfullresponsibilityformyownroleintheseactivities,in
relationtowhatmypositionintheCIAimplied,astomylevelof
responsibilityasitchangedovertheyears.Attheoutset,intheperiod
195157,1washeadofabranchofadivisionchargedwiththerespon
sibilityoflookingintothematterswhichIdescribedabove.Isetup
andhandledsoiueprojectsmyself,andsupervisedandadministered
otherCIAemployeesmonitoringotherprojects.Astheyearswent
onandIassumedbroaderresponsibilities,mypersonalinvolvementin
theprojectslessened.Thus,myinvolvementwasmostdirectinthe
period195157.
From1957totheendof1960,Iwasnotdirectlyinvolvedatall,
beingassignedtoothermatters.Iwasstationedoverseas195759,
andwasassignedtoanotherunitinheadquartersintheperiod1959
totheendof1960.Latein1960,1returnedtoTSDtobecomeChief
oftheResearchandDevelopmentcomponent;in1962,Ibecame
DeputyChiefofTSD;andfrom1966to1973,1vasChiefofTSD.I
retiredfromtheCIAonJune30,1973.1wanttostress,however,that
apolicyreviewofprojectMKULTRAandalloftheprojectsIwas
connectedwithtookplaceatleastonceayearduringMKULTRA
activeperiod,whichIrememberas1952H55.Inaddition,aseach
projectwasfunded,approvalinwritingatleasttwolevelsabovemine
wererequiredinallresearchanddevelopmentactivities.
Projectnames,likeArtichokeandBluebird,havebeenmentioned
%inthepress,associatedwithmyname.Myremembranceisthat
ProjectArtichokewasmanagedbytheOfficeofSecurityandthatI
hadnodirectorindirectresponsibilityforit,althoughIbecame
awareofitsexistenceandgeneralnatureovertheyears.Project

Bluebird,asIrememberit,wasalsoanOfficeofSecurityconcept,
possiblyneveractuallyrealized,whichlaterevolvedintoaTSD
sponsoredactivitylookingintobrainwashing,andultimatelyincluded
theSocietyforInvestigationofHumlanEcology.
Oneunusualprojectstartedin1952andcontinueduntilabout1965
wasanarrangementoriginallysetupbymewiththeBureauof
Narcotics.Inthisregard,Ihavepreviouslyfurnishedmyrecollections
ofthismatterduringmy40oddhoursoftestimonytotheSenate
SelectCommitteeonIntelligenceIdidnotmeantosaythatthe
testimonywasoddbutIamgladtodiscussthesemattersagainwith
thiscommittee.

lLJ

171
TheoriginofthisBureauofNarcoticsactivityrestedinmybecom
ingaware,throughreadingOSSresearchfilesofaninvestigation
intothebehavioralternatingpossibilitiesofTetrahydrocannabinol,a
syntheticmaterialrelatedtothenaturallyactiveconstituentofmari
huana,IwasabletocontactanofficeroftheBureauofNarcoticswho
hadparticipatedfirsthandintheOSSinvestigations.Withhim,Imade
"kanarrangement,fundedbytheCIA,wherebyhewouldcovertlyad

ministerchemicalmaterialstounwittingpeople.TheBureauof
Narcotics,throughthisindividual,hadtheirowninterestindeter
miningwhetherchemicalmaterialscouldbeusedtoelicitorvalidate
informationobtainedfromdruginformants.Thearrangementwould
benefittheCIA'sprograminthatinformationwouldbeobtained,
unobtainableinanyotherway,ontheeffectsofthesematerialsusedin
situationscloselyresemblingthoseinactualoperations.
*Ihavenopersonalawarenessofspecificindividualstowhomthese
materialswereadministered.Tothebestofmyknowledgeandremem
brance,thematerialsadministeredinthegreatmajorityofcasesunder
theBureauofNarcoticsprojectwereLSDandMeretran.Idonot
havedetailedinformationontheexactnumberofindividualsinm
volved,buttheimpressionIhaveisthatthenumberinvolvedwasJ
between20and50individualsovertheyearsoftheproject.
IfImightinterjecthere,thatimpressionremainsafterstudying
carefullythefilesthatyourstaffmadeavailabletome.I
IwouldliketoaddthattheBureauofNarcoticsprojectwasthei
onlyoneofitskindinthesenseoftryingtogainurgentlyneededin
formationintheadministrationofmaterialsinanoperationalcontext.|
Althoughithasdrawnconsiderableattentioninthenewsmedia,beJ
causeofitsunusualnature,itwasactuallyaverysmallpartofan
overallprogramwhichtookplaceinmoreconventionalproject,inthe
morenormalsettingofuniversitiesandlaboratories,asborneoutby1
therecordsshowntomebythecommitteestaff.iJ
Thiscommitteemightbeinterestedtoknowthatthetotalamount
ofmoneyspentoneverythingrelatedtoMKULTRAwaslimitedto
10percentofthetotalresearchdonebyTSD.Tomyremembrance,
attheheightofthespendingonMKULTRArelatedactivities,it
neverevenreachedthispercentage.

Thegreatbulkoftheresearchdoneunderthegeneralumbrellaof
theProjectMKULTRAtookplaceinacademicandotherresearch
settings.Theseprojectsalmostalwaysrepresentedworkthatthe
*individualinvestigatorswouldhavebeendoinginanycase.The
agency'srolewastoprovidethefundsand,inmanycases,provide
accesstotheinvestigatorifspecificinterpretationofhisresultsin
termsofourinterestswereneeded.Tomyrecollection,ineverycase,
theresultsoftherelatedresearchwerepublished.Ishouldadd"where
appropriate."Icannottestifythateverybodypublishedeverything
theydid.
ThedegreeofwittJngnessoftheprincipalinvestigatorsonthese
projectsvarieddependingonwhetherwejudgedhisknowledgeof
ourspecificintereststobenecessaryinprovidingusefulresultstous.
Thus,manyprojectswereestablishedinwhichtheprincipalinvesti
gatorwasfullyknowledgeableofwhowewereandexactlywhatour
interestsintheresearchwere.Othersweresimplyprovidedfunds
throughacovertorganizationandhadnoideaofultimateCIA
sponsorship.

3*,

172
Thedegreetowhichindividualsothersthantheprincipalinvesti
gatorneededtobewittingoftheagency'sconnectiontotheresearch
varied.Itwasgenerallylefttotheprincipalinvestigatortoadviseus

astowhetheranyoneelseineitherbisresearchternorintheadmin
istrativepartoftheuniversityorresearchorganizationneededtobe
madewittingtotheagency'srelationship.Tothebestofmyremem
brance,althoughforgeneralsecurityreasonswewereeagertokeep
thiskindofinformationtoaminimum,wewentalongwiththe
Erincipalinvestigator'sdesiresandclearedandbriefedwhomever
efeltwasnecessary.
Thegeneralsubjectofwhywefeltitisnecessarytouserfunding
mechanismsliketheSocietyfortheInvestigationofHumanEcology
ortheGeschickterFundforMedicalResearchneedssomecomment.
Thisinvolvesthemoregeneralquestionofwhywefeltallofthisre
searchneededtobekeptsecretinsofarasAgencysponsorshipwas
concerned.Thereason,however,itmayseemwiththebenefitof
hindsight,wasthatwefeltanypotentialenemiesofthiscountry
wouldbegreatlybenefitedintheirownpossiblefutureaggressiveacts
againsttheUnitedStatesiftheywereforewarnedastowhatthe
natureandprogressofourresearchinthisfieldwas.
Thelargestoverallpicturethatcanbegivenofth;sgroupofaca
demicandotherformalresearchundertakingisthattheywerean
attempttoharnesstheacademicandresearchcommunityofthe
UnitedStatestoprovidebadlyneededanswerstosomepressing
nationalsecurityproblems,intheshortestpossibletime,without
alertingpotentialenemiestotheU.S.Government'sinterestinthese
matters.
Inallcases,researchresultswerepublishedthroughthenormal
overtchannelsforpublicationofmedicalandphysiologicalresearch.
Iwouldliketoremindthemembersofthecommitteethatatthis
pointinhistorytheamountofavailablereliabledataonLSDand
similarmaterialswasessentiallynil.
Iunderstandfromreadingnewspaperaccountsthatoneofthe
principalinterestsofthiscommitteeinthiskindofresearchisthe

degreeofprotectionthatwasaffordedtothesubjectsusedinthose
experimentswherehumansubjectswereused.AsfarastheBureauof
Narcoticsprojectisconcerned,myimpressionwastherewasnoad
vanceknowledgeorprotectionoftheindividualsconcerned.The
onlycommentIwouldliketomakeonthisisthat,harshasitmay
seeminretrospect,itwasfeltthatinanissuewherenationalsurvival
mightbeconcerned,suchaprocedure,andsuchariskwasareason
ableonetotake.Iwouldliketoremindthecommitteeagainthat,
asfarasthoseofuswhoparticipatedinthisworkwereconcerned,
thiscountrywasinvolvedinarealcovertwarinthesensethatthe
coldwarspilledoverintointelligenceactivities.
Insofarasprotectionofindividualsinthebulkofthiswork,as
representedbyformalresearchprojects,isconcerned,thematter
ofinformedconsentandprotectiontothevolunteersparticipating
waslefttoeachinvestigatoraccordingtothestandardsthateither
heorhisinstitutionfeltwereappropriatetothesitutation.Our
generalfeelingwasthatifwechosereputableandresponsibleinvesti
gators,appropriatestandardsinthisareawouldbeused.Ithink,
ingeneral,theproceduresactuallyusedintheseexperimentswere

s*

a*1

173
representativeofwhatwasconsideredtobeadequatesafeguards
atthetime.

ImightaddIfu'lyrealizethosestandardshavechangedsincethen.
Acommentshouldbemadeonthelandofinterestthattheagency
hadinthesemattersandhowitmayhavechangedovertheyears.
Theoriginalimpetusforthework,asmentionedabove,wasthecon
cernthataggressiveuseofbehavioralteringtechniquesagainstthis
countrybyitsenemies.Althoughthisremainedacontinuingand
probablyprimaryfocusinthehistoryoftheseprojects,theagency
didbecomeinterestedinthepotentialuseofbehaviormodification
techniquesinunforeseencircumstancesthatmightoccurinthefuture.
Itisundoubtedlytruethatsomeoftheseresearchactivitieswere
continuedintothemiddleorlate1960'swhen,inlookingbackward
now,therealpossibilityoftheirsuccessfulandeffectiveuseeither
againstusorbyuswasverylow.Infact,Irememberwritingareport
'whenIwasondetachedassignmentwithanotherunitintheclandes
tineservicesinabout1961whichconcludedthatthepotentialef
fectivenessofthesetechniquesandtheinclinationofAmericanin
telligenceofficerstousethemwaslimited.TheonlyreasonsIcan
providenowforthecontinuanceofasmallnumberoftheseactiv
itieswasthatwefeltweneededtobemorecertainthanwewere
ofthesenegativeresultsandalsothatwefeltaneedtomaintain
contactwithindividualsknowledgeableinthesefieldstokeepour
selvesabreastofwhatwashappening.
ImightaddthatIleftouthere,andIwillfreelyadmittoacertain
amountofbureaucraticinertiathatalwaystakesplaceintheshutting
offanongoingactivity.Thatcertainlywasafactor.
Inconclusion,Iwouldliketocommentonthreethingswhichtrouble
meverymuchaboutthesituationIfindmyselfin.
First,therehavebeenmanyreferencesinthepresstoattemptsby
metoavoidtestifying.Theseallegationsarewithoutanybasisinfact,
eitherintermsof"hiding"ormakingmyselfunavailabletocongres
sionalcommittees.

InthecaseofmytestimonybeforetheChurchcommitteein1975,
IvoluntarilyandimmediatelyreturnedfromIndiaassoonasIwas%.
madeawareatthemissionaryhospital,whereIwasperformingvolfj
untaryservices,thatImightbeneeded.Ihavebeenavailableforalla
legitimateinquiriesatalltimesthroughmycounsel.
Second,IfeelvictimizedandIamappalledattheCIA'spolicy,f|
whereinsomeoneorsomegroupselectivelypinpointsmynamebym
failingtodeleteitfromdocumentsreleasedundertheFreedomof
InformationActwithoutanypermissionfromme.Thatis,mynamei
isselectivelyleftonreleaseddocumentswhereallormostothersarey
deleted.Ihaveagreatconcernforpast,present,andfutureemployees
oftheCIAinvolvedinsensitive,difficult,andpotentiallymisunder
stoodwork,asthispolicyofselectivedisclosureofindividuals'names||
getsappliedtothem.IamsincerelyconcernedthattheCIA'sability^
torecruitclandestineassetsinthefuturewouldbeseverelyimpaired.
Third,myconcernisforthereputationsofthemanyindividuals
notemployeesoftheagency,inacademicandprofessionallifewho,
forthemostpatrioticandconstructiveofreasons,andguaranteed
bothbymyselfandtheAgencyofconfidentialityandnondisclosure,i
chosetoassisttheAgencyinitsresearcheffortsoverthepastyears.||
Bynow,intoday'sclimate,theassociationinthenewsmediaofany

174
nameintheacademicorprofessionalworldwithCIAbringsimmediate
andautomaticnegativeconnotationsandirreparablydamagestheir
reputations.Withregardtomytestimony,Ihopethiscommitteewill
understandmyreluctance,exceptwhenabsolutelyessential,tomen
tionothernames.Iamdesirousandwillingtosharemyknowledgeof
mattersofinteresttothecommitteethatIhaveinmymemorybut,
**whatevertheCIA'spoliciesmaybeonthismatter,Ifeelitisapoint
ofpersonalresponsibilitytohonorthecommitmentofconfidentiality
thatIfeeltowardtheseindividualsandnottobeapartytofurther
damagetheirreputations.
Insummary,IwouldlikethiscommitteetoknowthatIconsidered
allthisworkatthetuneitwasdoneandinthecontextofcircum
stancesthatwereextantinthatperiodtobeextremelyunpleasant,
extremelydifficult,extremelysensitivebut,aboveall,tobeextremely
urgentandimportant.Irealizethatitisdifficulttoreconstructthose
timesandthatatmospheretodayinthisroom.
AnotherthoughtthatIwouldliketoleaveyouwithisthatshould
thecourseofrecenthistoryhavebeenslightlydifferentfromwhat
itwas,Icaneasilyimagineacongressionalcommitteebeingextremely
criticaloftheagencyfornothavingdoneinvestigationsofthisnature.

Atthispoint,with,yourpermission,Iwouldliketointerjecttwoor
threeincidentsverybrieflytoillustratethispointifyouwillpermit
that.
SenatorKennedy.Fine.
Dr.Gottlieb.Ididnotwritethemherebecausetheywerenot
recalled.Oneisonatleasttwooccasionsinthepast,Iandanassociate
ofminebriefedthephysicianofthethenPresidentoftheUnited
Statesontheinherentdangersandalertedthemastowhattolook
forshouldacovertattackagainstthePresidentofthisnaturebe
made.
Thesecondpointinvolvesanincidentthathappenednottoo
longagowhere,mconnectionwithaPresidentialvisittoapotentially
hostilecountry,isthebestwayIcansayit,thephysicianalongon
thisvisit,whenhecameback,reportedsomeIdonotquiteknow
howtodescribeitsomeunusualfeelingsheandseveralother
membersofthepartyhad,andanassociateofmine,someonewho
workedforme,withknowledgeofthiswholeresearch,wasableto
counselwithhimastowhatthiskindofbehaviormightmean.
Ijustusethistoillustratebutthebottomlineonthiswholebusi
er,nesshasnotbeenwrittenasfarasIamconcerned.
Inanycase,itismysimplewishtobeashelpfulaspossibletothis
committeeinobtainingitsappropriatelegislativegoals,andIam
preparedtobeashelpfulandforthcomingaspossibleintheareasin
whichyouareinterested.
SenatorKennedy.WewillindicateattheoutsetthatDr.Gottlieb
istestifyingpursuanttoagrantofimmunity.Ithinkitisimportant
thattherecordreflectthat.
Mr.Lenzneb.Thankyou,sir.

SenatorKennedy.Wewillbegladtoincludeit.
Onepointintermsoftheavailability,Dr.Gottlieb,youmade
referencetothatinyourformalstatement.Thefactis,justinterms
ofourinquiry,wewereunabletogetanyconversationoranyinfor
mationfromyouuntilwehadthegrantofimmunity.Wehadother
agentswhowehadrequestedtocomeandwhocame.Others,wehad
tosubpenatocome.Butreallyyouweretheonlyonethatwell,

175
otherstalkedwithusandwouldcomebackwithagrantofimmunity,
butyouarethoonlyonewhoinsistedonthegrantofimmunityto
comeandtalk.1do"not,wanttomakemoreofthatthanthatstate
mentorcomment,butIthink,sinceyoureallybroughtthisupin
termsofavailability,Ithinkprobablytherecordoughttoatleast
indicatewhatourunderstandingoftheavailabilitywouldbe.
Mr.Lenzneb.Senator,ifIcouldcommentonthat.
Dr.Gottlieb,followingouradviceandcounsel,strictadviceand
counsel,hasbeenavailabletocongressionalcommitteesandother
sourcespursuanttoagrantofimmunity.Butheisrelyingonour
adviceandcounsel,nottodiscussorwaiveanylegalrightsthathe
mighthavepriortothisformallegalprocesstakingplace.Buthe
didcomeinadayearlieratyourstaffsrequesttoreviewthesema

terials,andwehavetriedtobecooperativetotheextentof6daysof
testimonybeforetheSenateSelectCommittee,andnowhistesti
monytoday.
Doyouwanttoaddanythingtothat?
Dr.Gottlieb.No.
SenatorKennedy.BeforeIgetintotheflowofthequestions,
letmeseeifIunderstandoneoftheaddonsthatyoumadeinterms
ofaPresidentialvisittoaforeigncountry.Uponhisreturn,the
Presidentandhispartysoughtandcounseledwithyouaboutthe
Dr.Gottlieb.Excuseme,itwasnotmepersonally.Itwassome
onewhoworkedforme.
SenatorKennedy.Associatedwithyou.Buttheytoldyouofthis.
Areyousuggestingthatatleastthesepeople,thePresidential
party,weredruggedbyaforeigncountry?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iamsuggestingthattheywantedtohelpthem
reviewanddeterminewhetherthatmighthavehappened.
SenatorKennedy.Didtheylookintothat?Didyourassociate
lookintoit?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Didtheymakeanyjudgment?,
Dr.Gottlieb.Icannotgiveyouapreciseansweronthat,noramj
Isureitisappropriateformeto,butthefactisthatIcannot.^
SenatorKennedy.Youcouldtellusifthe

Dr.Gottlieb,IamgoingtotrytobeasresponsiveasIcan.Myfl
remembranceisthattheydecideditwasanindeterminatething||
thatlongaftertheincidenttheycouldnot,atleastunequivocably,
concludethatthisbehaviorwasduetosomecovertdrug.m
SenatorKennedy.Canyoutelluswhatyearthishappened?|j
Dr.Gottlieb.1amnotpreciselyfixedintheyear.Iwouldsay
itwasapproximately1971,approximately.
SenatorKennedy.SoIgathertheresultswereinconclusive.1
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes,thatismyremembrance.Idonothavea&*
sharpdetailedremembrance.
SenatorKennedy.Wouldtheotheragencyknowthat?fl
Dr.Gottlieb.Ijustdonotknow.Ibringituponlyinthecontext
ofillustratingthatwearewalkinginamarginhere,onaborder
where,youknow,therelevanceofworklikethisandtheurgencyof
where,youknow,it,thatthefinalanswerpossiblyhasnotbeen
written.
SenatorKennedy.Wellsinceyouraisedit.Iaminterestedinthe
specificcircumstanceswhichyouraisedhere.

176
Ithinkthereareextraordinarilygreatimplicationsonitabouta

Presidentialparty.Ithinkthatthatissomethingthatisworthknowing
about.
IstheIntelligenceCommitteefamiliarwiththose
Dr.Gottlieb.Ireallydonotknow.
SenatorKennedy.SenatorChafeeisontheIntelligenceCommittee.
Idonotknowwhetherornotyouwanttopursuethis,SenatorChafee.
*Wewanttogetbackintoourotherareas,butIthinkitisworthat
leastfindingoutmoreaboutthisincident.
Just'finallyonthis,isthereanywayyoucandescribetousthetype
ofbehaviorthatwasofconcerntothePresidentialparty?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
Mybestrecollectionisthatitwasdisoriented,unusualintermsof
theperson'snormalbehavior.Icanonlygiveyouageneraldescription
ofit;
SenatorKennedy.IsthisjustthePresidentialpartyordidit
includethePresident?
Dr.Gottlieb.Myrecollectionisthatitcertainlydidnotinclude
thePresident.
SenatorKennedy.ThePresidentialparty?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.Andspecificallyitincludedthephysician
himselfandsomeofhisassociates.Youknow,inappropriatetears
andcrying,Irememberwaspartofthismanifestedbehavior.
SenatorKennedy.Ifwemaygobackalittlebit,justinfollowing

throughyourexperience,Dr.Gottlieb.Ithinkyoutriedtoputthis
programinsomeperspective,theprogramofdrugtestingonunwitting
subjects.
Whatwasthereaboutthetimesthatcausedyouoryourcolleagues
intheCentralIntelligenceAgencytoundertakethatproject,the
overallMKULTRAresearchproject?
Dr.Gottlieb.Thefeelingthatwehadwasthattherewasareal
possibilitythatpotentialenemies,thoseenemiesthatwereshowing
specificaggressiveintentionsatthattime,possessedcapabilitiesin
thisfieldthatweknewnothingabout,andthepossessionofthose
capabilities,possiblepossession,combinedwithourownignorance
aboutit,seemedtoustoposeathreatofthemagnitudeofnational
survivalasIsaid,hardasitmaybetoimaginethatinthisroom
atthesetimes.
SenatorKennedy.Youmentionedsortofconcreteexamplesupto
thetimeyoulefttheagency.Thoseconcreteexamplesgorightup
^through1972,1973.
Dr.Gottlieb.Mybestrecollectionisthataunitintheagency,
theCounterintelligenceUnit,whokeepstrackspecificallyofactivities
ofotherintelligenceservices,keepsarunningaccountofthosein
.stances,andthedegreeofrealitytothem.Inotherwords,howwell
theycanbedocumented.Ihavelookedatthisfileseveraltimesfor
obviousreasonsduringmyvariousresponsibilitiesintheCIA,and
thatiswhyIknowitisbothgrowingandreal,andasfarasIknow,
uptothetimeIlefttheagency,current.Inotherwords,whatIam
tryingtosayistherearewelldocumentedinstancesofthiscountry's
potentialenemies'specificuseofcovertdrugadministrationsagainst
Americansandothers.
SenatorKennedy.Yourinformationisthatitiscontinuingatthe
presenttime?

1771
Dr.Gottlieb.Icannottalkaboutanythingafter1973.
SenatorKennedy.Upthrough1973though,covertdrugadminj
istrationswerebeingused?_J
Dr.Gottlieb.Tnatismyimpression.
SenatorKennedy.Thatisyourimpressionandyourinformation?m
Dr.Gottlieb.IamafraidImightIbegivingyouamisimpression,J
Senator,andthatisIamnotsayingtheyusedLSDorpsychogenic
material.Iamsayingthatthegeneralmethodofoperationofcovert
administrationofdrugsiswelldocumented.fl
SenatorKennedy.Doyouwanttojusttellusthetypeofthings,^
themostrecenttimesthatyouwere
Dr.Gottlieb.Icannotrememberthem.Thelistislong.AsIsay,|J
itisimpressivethatway.TheonesIremember,thespecificremem||
brance1havearedrugswhichtotallyincapacitateindividualsina
mannersothatdocumentscanbestolen.Inotherwords,basicallym
insensate,andthiswouldbe,asIrememberit,becauseithasbeenin1
thepressseveraltimes,Americanandothercouriersandmilitary
attacheshavehadthissortofthinghappentothem.

SenatorKennedy.Arewetalkingaboutahandfulofcasesorare1
wetalkingabouthundreds,thousands?J
Dr.Gottlieb.Weseemtohavetroublewithprecisefigures
becauseIdonothavethatinmyhead.Inthisparticularone,Irs
realizethisisasensitiveandimportantissue,andIdonotwanttoy
makemisstatements,soIwouldrathernotuseanumberandbe
imprecise.
SenatorSchweiker,CouldIask,areyoutalkingaboutahandful1
ormorethanahandful?^
Ithinkweoughttohavesome
Dr.Gottlieb.Ifyoumeanbyhandful,five,itisalotmorethan
that.
SenatorKennedy.Youlistedalonglistinyourearliertestimony.
Dr.Gottlieb.Bylong,Imeanmorethan20.Idonotremember
howmuchlonger.
SenatorKennedy.Canyoutellushowandwhythefirstsafe
housesweresetup?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
TorepeatbrieflywhatIsaidinthestatement,thatafterbecoming
acquaintedwiththeBureauofNarcoticsagentwithaninterestand
backgroundinthis,heandIworkedoutanadministrativearrange
ment,andImightstraightenonethingoutherethathasappearedin

severalplaces,"Bothinthepressandelsewhere,andthatwasthatthis
narcoticsagentworkedforCIA.Asfaras1amconcerned,inmy
remembranceofallofthesematters,thatisatotaldistortionofwhat
happened.Heremainedaveryactiveand,Iunderstand,effective
BureauofNarcoticsagentandadministrator;thathefeltthathis
interestandourscouldbesuccessfullyintermingled.Andthenature
ofthethingsthathedidforuswereindeednotthingsthathewould
say,well,now,IamdoingthisforCIA.Theyweremeanttobeuseful
inhisownwork,totheextentthathefeltthatway.Ijustwantto
straightenthatout.HeneverworkedforCIA.
Hewas&memberofanotherGovernmentagencywhowascoop
eratingwithusinusingfacilitiesthatthisagencydidnotfeelthey
couldaffpiv?orwererelevant.

178
SenatorKennedy.Butthefactis,isitnot,thatyoureallystarted
theprogramintermsofthis
Dr.Gottlieb.Oh,yes,thatisafact.
SenatorKennedy.TheywerereallystartedbyyouandGeorge
White,MorganHall?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.v.
SenatorSchweikeb.WereanyoftheseagentspaidbytheCIA,or
:werealltheirsalariespaidbythe

Dr.Gottlieb.Byagents
SenatorSchweikeb.Imeananyofthepeopleinvolvedinthedrug
experiments,whoadministereddrugsorranthesafehouSes,people
fromtheBureauofNarcotics.WereanyofthempaidbytheCIA
whiletheydidthiswork?
Dr.Gottlieb.TherewasorveunusualperiodthatIwouldbehappy
togointoofnolongerthan3to6monthsthat,duetospecialcircum
stances,IwillrelatetoyouasbestIunderstandthem,wedidpayMr.
White'ssalary.
AsIsay,justforaperiodof3to6months.
SenatorSchweikeb.Anyothers,oristhattheonlyone?
Dr.Gottlieb.No.Thatistheonlyincidence.Iwillbegladto
recoUecttoyouwhatIrememberaboutthat.
SanatorKennedy.Well,asIunderstandit,MorganHalldidwork
forandwasbeingdirectlypaidbytheagencyforaperiodofapprox
imately3months?
Dr.Gottlieb.ThemainpointIwanttomakeisthathewaspaidby
theBureauofNarcoticslegitimatelyforalltheothertimes.Thatisthe
pointIwanttoleave.
SenatorKennedy.Butbytheagency
Dr.Gottlieb.Forthisshortperiod.
SenatorKennedy.WhenhewasnotbeingpaidbytheCIA,but
wasinvolvedinthisprogramintermsofthesafehouses,hewas
effectivelyworkingforandwiththeunderstandingfortheagency
itself?

Dr.Gottlieb.No;no
SenatorKennedy.AswellastheBureauofNarcotics?
Dr.Gottlieb.No;Idonotthinkthatis,inmyformulation,the
wayIwoulddescribeitatall,Senator.
SenatorKennedy.Well,youdescribeitthen.
Dr.Gottlieb.HewasaworkingactiveBureauofNarcoticsofficer
goingabouthisbusinessandalteringtheminsofarashefelthecould
elpusandstillarrangehisownaffairs.
*SenatorKennedy.Buthewasrunningtheprogram,thesafehouse
inSanFrancisco,washenot?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.Buttheactivitiesinthesafehouse,whatever
informationweweregettingoutofthem,theyallinvolvedtheBureau
ofNarcotics'interests.
SenatorKennedy.Thatisright.ButtheyalsoinvolvedCIA
interests.
Dr.Gottlieb.Oh,yes.
SenatorKennedy.Effectively,Iwoulddescribeit,andthisisa
matterofsemantics,youwouldeffectivelydescribeitthatMorgan
Hallwastheoperationalarmoftheagencyintermsofthesafehouse
inSanFranciscothatismydescription.
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavetoacceptthewayyoudescribeit

5*1'

179
SenatorKennedy.Idonotwaattoputwordssi
Dr.Gottlieb[continuing].Tome,andIhavenoaxetogrindnow
inthisarea,thereisnoreasonthatIwouldwanttomakeitappearfl
thathewasnotworkingforCIA,ifhewas.Butthefactisandthell
circumstancesare,andIamfairlyfamiliarwiththiscornerofthings,
thatthatjustwasnotthecase.m
SenatorKennedy.Whatwas,hisassociationwiththesafehousein1
SanFranciscoforthatperiodof10years?il
Dr.Gottlieb.Thereisnoquestionthathewastheprincipaland
practicallytheonlypersonthat,throughwhom,CIAbecameawaref|
ofthoseresultsfromallofthisthattheyfelttheywouldbeuseful.I'j
amnottryingtodiluteormitigateoralterthefactthatMr.White
wasitasfarasthisprogramgoes.ThepointIwanttomakethoughis^
thatthesewerealwaysactivitiesthattheBureauofNarcotics||
SenatorKennedy.Hadsomeinterestin?
Dr.Gottlieb.Hadsomeinterestin.

SeratorKennedy.Hewasstilltheconduitofverysizableamounts%
ofmoneyduringallthisperiod,washenot?ii
Dr.Gottlieb.Noquestionaboutit.
SenatorKennedy.Fromtheagency?m
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.U
SenatorKennedy.OK.:
Intermsofyourknowledge,didtheleadershipoftheIntelligence
Agencyunderstandthisprogram,theMKULTRA,anddidthey
approveit?
Dr.Gottlieb.Myanswertothat,beforeyoumadeavailableto
methedocumentsyouhave,wouldhavebeenabsolutely.Having|1
readthedocuments,youhavedocumentedevidenceofthat,IthinkU
youhavetheDirector'ssignatureonenablingincumentsthatgot
thisstarted,andasImentionedinmystatement,myremembrancei^
isthattherewasapolicyreviewofthisproject,atleastonceayear,||
andmorefrequentlythanthatlater,andthatpeoplewithresponsi
bilitiesbroaderthanminealwaysapprovedspecificprojectsand
specificexpendituresoffunds.AsIsay,myremembranceofthiswasfl
verymuchreinforcedbyallthesignaturesonthememorandathatIil
saw.
SenatorScmviJiKER.Inyourtestimonyyousaidwrittenapproval||

frompersonsatleasttwolevelsaboveyouwasrequiredforeach|f
project.Whatpositionsareyoureferringtowhenyouspeakoftwo
levelsaboveyou?^
Dr.Gottlieb.ThereasonIputitthatway,SenatorSchweiker,isfl
thatmyownjobchanged.Whattwolevelswouldbeatanyonetime^
abovemewouldchange.Forinstance,whenIwasabranchchief,
therewouldbemorethantwolevels.Thedivisionchiefwouldsignit,||
andthechiefofthencalledTSSwouldsignit,andIdonotrememberU
nowbutforcertainlevelsoffundstherewoul4havetobeoneortwo
.signaturesabovebis,dependingonwhatthesizeoftheexpenditure
was.
AlsoIspecificallyrememberbriefingtheDirectorofCIArepeatedly
onthesematters.
SenatorKennedy.Whowerethey?Whatwasitandwhowere
they?

II

180
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavetobecarefulthatmyremembrancewas
accurate.ItwascertainlyMr.Dulles,Mr.McConeandMr.Helms.
SenatorKennedy.DidyoueverbriefaPresident?

Dr.Gottlieb.No.
SenatorKennedy.DoyouknowifanyonebriefedaPresident?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavenoknowledgeofthat,Senator.
SenatorKennedy.Couldwegoontothefocusonthesafehouse
operation.
g;Whatwerethepurposesofthesafehouses^
SenatorSchweiker.First,mayIinterposeonequestion?
HowaboutbriefingCongressduringthisperiod?Wouldyouhave
briefedCongressorwouldyouknowthatCongresshadbeenbriefed
ontheseprojects?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ireallyhavenoknowledgeonthat.AsIunder
standit,thecongressionalbriefingprocedureswererun,thatwasdone
byofficersoftheagencymuchhigherthanme,andweprovidedthem
withinformation.Irememberforwardinginformationofthiskind.
Theywoulddecidewhattouseandwhatnot.ButIhavenodirect
knowledgethatCongresswasorwasnotbriefed.
SenatorChafee.CouldIaskonequestion?
Itismyunderstandingthatthiswholeoperationwassosensitive
thattheInspectorGeneralhimselfdidnotknowaboutit,isthat
correct?
Dr.Gottlieb.TheonlylightIcanthrowonthat,SenatorChafee,
isthattherewasaninspectionand,asIrememberit,theyearmight
havebeen1957,butifyouwillrememberfrommytestimonythat
wasaperiodthatIwasdisassociatingmyselfwithTBS.Iwasgoing
overseas.Buttherewasone,andIreallydonotknowwhathewas
shown.CertainlyintheoneIdoremember,whichwasabout1961

or1962,whenIwasbackinTSD,theInspectorGeneralhadtotal
accesstothisprogram.WhatIamsayingisbefore1961therewas
aninspectioninTSDaboutthattime.Thesetookplaceaboutevery
7years.BeforethattimeIreallyamhazyonthispoint.Ijustdonot
remember.
Afterthattime,andincludingthatinspection,Ispecificallyremem
bertheInspectorGeneralbeingmadeprivytothiswholeprogram.
SenatorKennedy.AsIunderstand,theInspectorGeneralrecom
mendedaterminationofthisin1963ontheunwittingpartof
Dr.Gottlieb.Thatwasnotwhatherecommended,Senator.
Whatherecommended,Senator,wasthattheDirectormakeanew
determinationastowhetherhewantedittocontinueornot.
SenatorKennedy.Hequestioned,asIunderstand,in1963,the
?.testingofcertaindrugsonunwittingU.S.citizens,isthatcorrect?
Dr.Gottlieb.AsIsay,hisspecificrecommendationwasthatthe
DirectoroftheCIAbegivenanopportunitytoagaindetermine
whetherthisprogramshouldcontinue.Soitcertainlyraisesthe
question.
SenatorSchweiker.Anddidtheprogramcontinueafterthat?Was
anewdeterminationmadebytheDirector?
SenatorKennedy.MayIjustfinishonthis?
Whatwasyourrecommendationatthattime,astowhetherornot
itshouldbecontinued?

181

Dr.Gottlieb.Thisneedstobeputcarefullybecause,inthefirst
place,theprecisionwithwhichIrememberthisdoesnotallowforan
answerhere.AsIremember,Ispecificallyremembermeetingwith
Mr.McConeatwhichIwaspresentwithawholehistoryofthis
project,theprosandconsofcontinuingornotcontinuingitwere
presentedtonimfordecision.TheinstructionsthatIreceivedafter
thismeetingwasthattheDirectorwasconsideringthisproblem,had
notmadeadecision,andspecificallykeepthefacilities,butstand
downontheunwittingtesting.
SenatorKennedy.Whatdidyourecommend?Iunderstandthat
tobetheendresult,atleastinthedocumentsthatweremadeavail
able.Principally,inastandbysituation,whatdidyourecommend?
Dr.Gottlieb.IdonotthinkIcanaccuratelytestifyonthat
standpoint,Senator.Myremembranceisthattheprosandconsfor
continuingitanddiscontinuingitwerepresentedbyus.
SenatorKennedy.Youarefamiliarwiththedocumentfor
Dr.Gottlieb.Isthatonewesawtheotherday?Becausethose
documentswereveryhelpfultome.
SenatorKennedy.ItisIntelligenceAgencydocument,second
paragraph
Dr.Gottlieb.Senator^Ihadnotseenthis.
Mr.Lenzner.Wedidnotseethattheotherday.
Dr.Gottlieb.Maywetake1minutetoreadit?
SenatorKennedy.Sure.
Dr.Gottlieb.Senator,Ihavenoproblemwithadmittingthatwe
arguedfortheprogram.

Beadingthisdocument,Ihavenoreasontodisputeitwasnotm
writtenbyme.||
OnepointIwanttomakeclearisthatthiswasameeting,asyou
willseenotthereforthepurposeofdecidinganythingitwasa_
discussionofthewholeproject.|]
SenatorSchweiker.IsittrueMr.Helmsrecommendedthepro^
grambecontinued,includingthetestingofunwittingsubjects?
Dr.Gottlieb.Again,Senator,Iwanttobecarefulwherepeople||
otherthanmeareinvolvedbecausemyremembranceisnotthatJ
clear.IwouldhonestlyhavetobeshownadocumentlikeIwasjust
showntorefreshmymemorysharplyonthematter.m
Andrightnow,Icannottestifypreciselyastowhetherheasany
individualsaidorfeltorrecommendedit.m
SenatorSchweiker.Washeyourbossatthetime?
Dr.Gottlieb.Atthetimethesediscussionstookplace?fi
SenatorSchweiker.HewasyourbossasIrememberit,andyouII
saidthatatleasttwolevelsaboveyourswereinvolvedindecision
makingonthisprogram.,.,.m
SenatorKennedy.ThedocumentsshowthatbothDr.Gottliebyj

andMr.Helmsrecommendedacontinuationoftheproject.
Now,canwegettothepurposeofthesafehouses.?,
Wereunwittingdrugtestsconductedthereandhowmanywerefj
conducted?^
Let'stalkaboutNewYorkCity.
Dr.Gottlieb.Myanswertoyourquestionis,Senator,isthatyes,IJ
unwittingadministrationofdrugstookplacethere,andIsaythatiJ
becauseIneverpersonallywitnessedanybutIreceivedreportsonit
happening.

i
I

1".

'I
1"j
182
Iamconfidentthatitdid..$

Thatiswhattheprojectwassetupfor.
Inresponsetoyoursecondquestionofhowmany,Itestifiedafter
carefulylookingoverallthefiles,thatwereshowntome,bybestguess
wouldbe25to50.
SenatorKennedy.IncludingNewYork'ssafehouseandSanFran
cisco'ssafehouse.
Dr.Gottlieb.Myfigurereferstototaloveralltheyears.
SenatorKennedy.Overhowmanyyears?
Dr.Gottlieb.Well,asIsay,itappearedthatIfeelthisthing
wasactive,was1952to1965.
SenatorKennedy.For13yearsyouaresuggestingthattherewere
onlyfrom20to40individualsorgroupsoftests?
Dr.Gottlieb.ThatiswhatIamsayingmybestremembranceis.
SenatorKennedy.Individualsorgroupsoftests?
Dr.Gottlieb.Senator,myimpressionofwhatwentoninthesafe
houseswasthattherewasagooddealofBureauofNarcoticsactivity*
notrelatedtodrugtestingmatwentonandthis,again,Iwantto
emphasize,isonlyanimpressionfromtalkingtoMr.Whitemostly,
inthatlotsofpotentialinformantsandotherpeoplerelatedtothe
BureauofNarcoticsactivitieswerebroughtinandoutofthesesafe
housesforoperationalreasons,andsomeoftheseindividualswere
unwittinglyadministeredthesedrugs.
So,Iamnotforamomentsayingthatasfaraswhatyoumight
calloperationalencountersjsithdrugenforcementandpeoplerelated
totheBureauofNarcoticsoperations,Icannotsaynowmanyof
those.IamtalkingabouttheonesthatIhaveanyreasontothink

wereadministereddrugs.
SenatorKennedy.Butitwasbasicallyprettymuchajointoper
ation,wasitnot,intermsofthesesafehouses?
Dr.Gottlieb.Whenyousay,weneedtobeformetogivepre
ciseanswerstothat.:
SenatorKennedy.Justintermsofthenumbers.
Asyouarewellfamiliar,havingexaminedthechecksduringthat
periodoftime,therewerefortheundercoveroperationsforthetwo
safehouses,asIunderstandduringthisperiodoftime,therewere
morethan200paymentsthatweremade*
ThisisjustSanFranciscoformorethan$20,000andtheNew
Yorkonehadconsiderablyless.Thebookkeeping,asIunderstand
fromtherecordsthatweremadeavailable,Weremuchinferior.
Howdoyouexplainfromwhereyournameappearsonanumberof
thosechecks,ontheauthorizationfortheexpendituresofthese
matters,whatdoesthismeantoyouintermsofthesetypesofex
penditures?
Itwouldcertainlyseemthattheseplacesweremuchmoreactive
justwithregardtopaymentsthanyouwouldsuggest.
Dr.Gottlieb.Senator,Iunderstandyouraskingmeformy
impressionsandmybestunderstandingoninterpretationofthedata
thatthesechecksrepresent.
Iamnotdisputinginanywaythatthesechecksweremade,pay
mentsweremade,someofthemarehardtounderstand,thatallof
themallofthese200plusseemtohavegenerictitleofwhatwere
theynotSTORMY.

Yousaid29or39orwhat?

183

Let'sbecarefulherewiththefigures,200plus,anditreferredto
amountslike$50and$100thathavetitlesbesidesSTORMY,like1
operationalpurposesorsomething.IhavenowayornoreasontoJ
disputethat;infact,theywereusedforoperationalpurposes.
Idohavealotofconfusioninmyownmindthatalloftheseso
calledoperationalpurposesinvolvedunwittingadministrations.j
Letmemakeitclear,theymayhave.Ihavenoreasontothink
that.Youaskedmewhatmyimpressionwas;myimpressionisderived
fromalltheinformationthatIcanrememberaboutthis.!|
SenatorKennedy.Well,couldyoutellusalittlebitaboutli
STORMY?
Dr.Gottlieb.MyremembranceisthatSTORMYwasamethodf%
ofreferringtoLSDthatMr.Whiteused.||
SenatorKennedy.Wouldyoutellushowextensivethatwas?

Dr;Gottlieb.Well,Ithinkyourstaffcantellyouthatbetterthan
IcanbecauseIknowitonlyfromthedocumentsIreadwhichtheyII
gaveme,butIbelievetheysaidtherewere32STORMYconnotations.H
Iwouldagreethattheyprobablyrepresentedatleastattemptsat
drugadministrations.11
SenatorKennedy.Manyofthe$100checks,someofwhichareJ
specificallymarkedforpaymentofundercoveragentswhileadmin
isteringSTORMYandothers,arenotmarkedatau,werepresumably
usedforthesamepurposebecausetheywereforthesameamount,l\
cashedbythesamepeople.^
Dr.Gottlieb.Whatisthequestion,Senator?
SenatorKennedy.Youareawarethatmanyofthecheckssayfl
STORMYandthosewereLSDchecks.Thenwehavesomeofthose|j
200checksthatweretothesamepeople,sameamount,sameperiod
oftimefromtheCIA.'^
Iamjustwonderingifyoucanaddanythingtowhatyouthink;||
Dr.Gottlieb.Myprocessingofthatinformation.Senator,asI
said,isthattheycouldbedrugadministrations,butyouareasking
mewhatmyimpressionofthetotalnumberis,andIthinkthatfj
thereisadifferencebetweenthe$100itemsthatwerehandedout
andtheactualcasesinwhichdrugswereadministered.
Mr.Lenzner.Excusemeonesecond,Senator.H

SenatorKennedy.Goahead.U
g'ause.]
r.Gottlieb.Thereisapoint,Senator,thatmighthavegottena
littleconfusedaswetalkedaboutthismatter.Thatis,thatthese
checkstowhichyourefer,notwrittenbyCIA,theywerecertainly
usingCIAfunds.ButtheywereactuallywrittenbyMorganHall.
SenatorKennedy.Right.Butasyoujustmentioned,theycould
havebeenfordrugtesting,couldtheynot?
Dr.Gottlieb.Icertainlycannotsaytheywerenot.*
Ihavenowayofsavingthat.
SenatorKennedy.Thatwerekeptupinthesameaccounting
processintheCIA,inthesameseriesoffiles,madeouttothesame
peopleforthesameamountduringthesameperiodoftime,andthere
arethe32thatreferredtoSTORMYspecificallyandwehave
othersthathaveMIDNIGHTandCLIMAXwrittenonit.Weare
tryingtofindouttheextentoftheamount
Dr.Gottlieb.Iamnotsittingheretryingtominimizeanything.
Thatisnotmyeffort.Iamtryingtoberesponsivetoyourquestion
ofwhatthetotalnumberofdrugadministrationswere,andIthink

184

ye

IV

thekeypointhereisamatterofinterpretingthatwhichisnotprecise,
namely,justwhatwerethoseitemsusedfor.
Iampersuaded,forinstance,thateveryoneofthose$100or$50
disbursementscouldhavebeensituationswheretheythoughtthey
mighthaveuseddrugs.
Iampersuadedofthat,butIamnotatallpersuadedthatthey
wereadministeredineveryoneofthesecases.
ThereisnorecollectionIhavenorhaveIseentnyconcreteevidence.
SenatorKennedy.Butthecheckswerecashed?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.Thesearereturnedchecks.
SenatorKennedy.Inyouropinion,wereprostitutesusedby
GeorgeWhiteforbisactivitiesintheSanFranciscosafehouse?
Dr.Gottlieb.MayIputthisquestion,Senator,alsoinacontext?
SenatorKennedy.Sure.
Dr.Gottlieb.InoticeonlyfromthingswhichMr.Whitetoldme
andthingswhichIpickedupinassociationwithhiminhisactivities
overmanyyears.
Thatis,thatthegeneralfieldofdrugenforcementandnarcotics
useprostitutesandaddictsandinthemethodofoperationofan
outfitliketheBureauofNarcotics,theelementofprostitutionis
interwoveninthewholematter.

SoIamcertainlypersuadedthatasfarassafehousesareconcerned,
therewereprostitutesinthem.
SenatorKennedy.Andinvolvedinthetesting?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavenospecificknowledgeofthat,Iwouldsay.
SenatorKennedy.Whatisyourimpression?
Dr.Gottlieb.Myimpressionisyes.
SenatorKennedy.Youareawarethatphotographicsurveillance
andsoundrecordingsweremaintained?
Dr.Gottlieb.ThatisanothermatterwhichIthinkneedstobe
talkedaboutinsomethingmorethanayesornoanswer.
Whenthesesafehousesweresetup,Idoremembertheattempt
wasmadetoequipthemandtheoriginalintentionwastohavea
documentedsoundmovie,youmightsay,sowewouldknowsome
thingaboutthebehaviorofpeoplewhentheywereadministered
thesedrugs.
Tomyremembrance,themoviepartofit,althoughtherewas
equipmentputinandtried,tomyremembranceIneversawnoram
Iawareofamoviemade?
Thatdoesnotmeantherewasnotamoviemade,butIfindmyself
havinganobjectiontoanelementofpornographybeingputinto
here,thatisasfarasIamconcerned,wasneverthere,namelysome
aspectofcollectingpicturesofprostitutesforthefunofit.
Tomyknowledgethatneverhappened.
SenatorKennedy.Well,theyhadauthorizationforthepurchase

oftwowaymirrors,forphotographicequipmentandsoundrecord
ingequipment.WasthispaidforbytheCIA?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Therewasnoquestioninyourmindthatthere
wasanintentionofusingit?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Andyoudonotknowfromyourowndirect
knowledgewhetheritactuallywasorwasnotused,isthatcorrect?

185

Dr.Gottlieb.Myimpressionwasthatasfarasthemoviesare
concerned,thatwasnotused.
SenatorKennedy.Well,anythingelse?Stills?Recording1
information?si
Dr.Gottlieb.Nottomyknowledge.

MyremembranceisthattheBureauofNarcoticsintheirstandardfl
methodofoperations,eitherwithusorindependentofus,usedaudioJ
recordingsofmeetingswithinformants.
SenatorKennedy.DidtheBureauofNarcoticspayforthis?
Ithinktheanswertothatisno.1
Dr.Gottlieb.Youmeanaudioequipmentusedinsafehouses?'*
SenatorKennedy.Thatisright.
Dr.Gottlieb.No.IthinktheCIApaidforthat.fl
SenatorKennedy.Theypaidforallofit?H
Dr.Gottlieb.ThatwasconsideredapartoftheCIAcontribu
tion.Ihavenoargumentwiththat.?
SenatorKennedy.Theypaidforitonthewestcoastaswellas\
ontheeastcoast?'
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Didyouadministerthedrugstoanyofyour
colleaguesordidyourcolleaguestryoutmostofthesedrugs
themselves?
Dr.Gottlieb.Therewasaperiodthatwehavenottalkedabout,
Senator,thatprecededtheestablishmentofthesesafehouses,andthat
couldhave,youknow,overlappedinthatperiodwhentherewasan
extensiveamountofselfexperimentationforthereasonthatwefelt
thatafirsthandknowledgeofthesubjectiveeffectsofthesedrugs

wereimportanttothoseofuswhowereinvolvedintheprogram.
SenatorKennedy.ThisisaboutthetimeoftheOlsoncase
Dr.Gottlieb.Itprecededthatandprobablycontinuedforawhile
afterwards.
SenatorKennedy.DidthatOlsoncasegiveyouanycausetore
thinkthetestingprogramonunwittingsubjects?
Dr.Gottlieb.Itcertainlydid.
SenatorKennedy.Ifitdid,whatweretheresultsofit?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ithinkyoucanunderstand,Senator,thatthatwas
atraumaticperiodasfarasIamconcerned.Itwasagreattragedy
anditdidcauseustoconsultwiththepeoplethatwefeltwereknowl
edgeableinhelpingusmakeajudgmentastowhethertogoaheador
not..
Itcausedmealotofpersonalanguish.Iconsideredresigningfrom
theCIAandgoingintootherworkbecauseitaffectedmethatway.
Ourfinalconclusionwastogoaheadwiththeworkonthebasisof
thebestadvicewecouldgetmedicallywasthatthecasualconnection
betweenLSDandtheactualsuicidewasnotabsoluteatall,thatthe
twowereseparatedbyaweekorso.Thatitwasareasonableriskto
take,andcertainlyMr.Whitewastoldabouttheincident.
SenatorKennedy.Now,justtogetbacktothenumbersagain
SenatorSchweiker.MayIfollowthispointup?
AfterthatOlsonincident,whydidn'tyouconsiderbringinginsome
medicalexpertstoexercisesomesortofsupervisionofdrugtesting?

Afterall,thereweretwowaymirrorsinthesafehouse,soitcouldhave
easilybeendone.Medicalpersonnelcouldhavecometoobservewhat
7
7

fil

186
washappeningsoiftherewereanysuspiciousthatanotherOlson
incidentwasinthemaking,therewouldbesomeoneonthesceneto
providemedicalhelporassistance.Itseemstomethatsomesteps
shouldhavebeentakentopreventafutureOlsoncase,andsinceyou
hadtwowaymirrors,itseemstomethatonesimplefeasiblethingthat
couldhavebeendonewastobringinamedicalobserver.
^Dr.Gottlieb.Myremembrance,SenatorSchweiker,isthatthat
*maywellhavehappened.Therewasaphysician,inbothcasesthere
werephysicians,towhomMr.Whitewasaccreditedtogo,whenever
hefeltheneededhelporconsultationoradvice.
Icannotrecounttoyounowhowoftenandhowmuchhesoughtthis
advice.
SenatorSchweikeb.Ofcourse,itwasnotamatterofhisneeding
helpandadvice;thesubjectsoftheexperimentsweretheoneswho
mighthaveneededhelp.IfyouwentthroughMr.White,Iamataloss

tounderstandhowadoctorcouldmakeajudgmentonceremovedon
whetherornotsomethingoughttobedone.
Dr.Gottlieb.ThatisnotwhatImean,Senator.
Imeanthattheremayhavebeenthesephysicianswhowereaccred
itedlookingatitthroughthemirror.Ijustdonotknow.Idon't
recollect.
SenatorChafee.IwouldliketoaskaquestionifImighthere.
YoumentionedthatinconnectionwiththedeathofMr.Olson,
youpersonallywereverydisturbed,andonthebasisofmedicaladvice,
asIunderstoodwhatyousaid,thedecisionwasmadetocontinue
withtheseexperiments.
Whogotthemedicaladvice?
Dr.Gottlieb.ThatisnotquitewhatImeant.
Ididnotmeanthatsomeonetoldustogoaheadwiththem.That
wouldhavebeenshirkingresponsibility.
SenatorChafee.Whatmedicaladvicewasreceived?
Dr.Gottlieb.AsIsay,Ibegyourindulgenceasfarasrevealing
nameshere,forthereasonImentionedinmyopeningstatement.
IfIcansaythiswithoutrevealingnames,thereweretwophysicians
whoknewmoreaboutLSDthananyoneelseatthistimeasfaraswe
areconcerned,ontheeastcoast,thattherewereseveralmeetings
heldwiththem,andinthedecisionthatwasmade,theirinputinto
thiswasthattherelationshipbetweenLfT)andOlson'sdfithwas
notnecessarilycausal.
Thenadecisionhadtobemade,wasitimportantenoughtotake

*whateverrisksremainedafterthat?
KSenatorChafee.DoIunderstandfromyourconclusionsherethat
whenallissaidanddone,youdidnotgetmuchoutofthisprogram?
Dr.Gottlieb.Thatishindsight,SenatorChafee,thatatthetime
youweretalkingaboutwedidnothave
SenatorChafee.Thatisright,butthepartthatIfindinteresting
andyoudidnotknowit,obviously,untilyoufinishedtheprogram
butwhenyoufinishedtheprogram,youcametotheconclusionyou
didnotgetmuchoutof.it.
Yet,inyourstatementyoumentionedthereisagrowinglibraryqf
documentedinstancesofroutineusebytheSovietSecurityServices
ofcovertlyadministereddrugs.
Havetheysucceededwherewehavenot?
Dr.Gottlieb.Thatishardtosay.

!
1

187

ThatiswhyImadethestatementthatthebottomlinehasnot
beenwrittenonthis.
MyestimateandpleaserememberthatIamatleast5yearsoutof
dateinfollowingthisfield,andhavingaccesstoclassifiedinformation
andsoon,butatthetimeIlefttheCIA,myconclusionwouldhave
beenthattheprobabilityofthemusingpsychogenicmaterialsina
finelytunedwaytoalterbehaviorwasverylowonthebasisthatwe
founditwasveryhardtodo.
WhatIreallywhatreallyhappenedtopeoplewhentheywere
undertheinfluenceofthesemindalteringorpsychogenicdrugswas
veryvariable,veryunpredictable.Thestatementaboutthegrowing
listhastodowiththegeneralmethodofoperationwhereyouunwit
tinglyadministerdrugs.
ThedrugsthatIremembermostlyusedinthesedocumentedcases
weremoreintheknockout
SenatorChafes.Sortofmacelike?
Dr.Gottlieb.Notmace.
SenatorChafes.Idonotmeanmacespecifically.
Dr.Gottlieb.Muchmoresubtlethanmaceinthesenseofrender
ingtheindividualunconscioussoyoucanmanipulatehim.
Thatisaformofmanipulation,soyoucantakehispapers.
SenatorChafes.Thereisnothingsubtleaboutthis.%*
Dr.Gottlieb.Itissubtletodothissuccessfully,covertly,materials||
havetobeinsmallenoughquantities,tasteless,andinfact,Iremem^

berthisisavagueremembrance,sodon'tholdmytoestthefireon
thedetailsofitbuttherewassomementioninthesefilesIreferred!]
toaboutasystem,apotentialenemyuse,wheretheyputasortofJ
pipeunderthedoorofasleepingtargetandrangasin,whichwould
essentiallyanesthesizethem,buthadnoodorsohewouldnotbe^
alertedtoit.J
Andduringthisanesthesia,theywouldcomeintobisroomand
searchitandtakehisdocumentsandsoon.
ButwhatIwanttosay,Senator,thatisthesortofadministration1
Imean.ThatisthesortofadministrationImean.^
SenatorSchweiker.AftertheOlsoncase,Dr.Gottlieb,wereyou
givenanywarningfromanyoneaboutwhathadhappenedhereandfl
whatshouldbedoneinthefuture,toyourrecollection?H
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavenotseenpapersrelatingtothatinquite
awhile,Senator,butmyrecollectionisthattherewerecertainlydis
cussions,certainly,aboutterminatingtheprogramorgoingslow.I
Idonotwanttomakeanyinferencesfromyourquestion,butmy"**
directanswertoyourquestionisthatIrememberdiscussionslikethat.
Icertainlydonotrememberanybodytellingustostoptheprogramf|
andknockeverythingoff.U
SenatorSchweiker.Well,indocumentsprovidedtousforthe
hearinginAugustwhichweconductedjointlywiththeIntelligencem

Committee,welearned,andIquote,||
OnFebruary12,1954,theDirectorofCentralIntelligenceAgencywrote
TechnicalServicesStaffofficialscriticizingthemfor"poorjudgment"inadmin
isteringLSDon"anunwittingbasisandwithoutproximatesafeguards"toDrt
Olsonandforthelackof"properconsiderationoftherightsoftheindividual"to
whomthedrugwasadministered.Onthesamedaythattheseindividualsreceived
criticallettersfromtheDCI,theInspectorGeneralreviewedareportonSub
project3ofMKULTRA.Inthatreport,thesameCIAofficerswhowerecriti*
cixedwerequotedastothepurposesofSubproject3theobservationofunwitting
personswhohadbeenquestionedafterhavingbeengivenadrug.

1188*
Basedonthatinformation,itwouldseemtomethatthewholetop
leveloftheAgencywascriticalofwhathappenedintermsofun
wittingtestingandprettymuchsaid,"Dosomethingdifferently,
'takesafeguards,andproceedwithcautionifyouproceedatall.1'
Iamnotclearonwhatreallyhappenedafterthatmessagefrom
ItheDCI,becauseitappearsthatthetestingwentoninjustabout
:thesameVayasithadbefore,withoutsafeguards.Nothingchanged.
^Dr.Gottlieb.IdonotknowthatIcanhelpwiththespecifics,
Cwhatreallytookplaceandwhathappened.IwillonlyrepeatwhatI
Jdorememberveryclearly,Senator,butthisprogramwasreviewed
onceayearandmyownremembrance,andasresponsiveasIcan

betoyourquery,wearetalkingaboutsomethingthathappened23
yearsago
SenatorSchweiker.Ithinkyouwillsurelyagreethat,expecially
aftertheOlsonincident,itwassomethingthatwasindeliblyetched
Iinyourmemoryduringthatperiodoftime.Youmustrecallwhat
happened.
1Dr.Gottlisb.Yes;thattheupperechelonsoftheagencywere
thoroughlyawarethattheprogramwascontinued.
IIcannotrationalizeforyouwhathappenedspecificallyafterthe
]memorandumsyouarereferringto..*
SenatorChafee.CouldIaskonequestionrelatedtothat,Dick?
IAlongwiththesecriticalreviewsbytheInspectorGeneral,andthe
|deathofMr.Olson,doyourememberanyadditionalsafeguards
.beingtakentoprotectthesubjectsasaresultoftheseactions,or
didn'tyoubelievethatadditionalsafeguardsshouldbetaken?
1Didthesejustgoalonginthesamemannerastheyhadbefore?
1Dr.Gottlieb.Asidefrom,asIsay,ponderingonthewholeques
tion,andalertingpeoplewhowereinvolvedaboutwhathadhap
pened,Icannotrespondtoyourquestionanymorespecificallythan
jthat.'
SenatorChafee.Byalerting,youdonotmeanalertingthesub
jects,though?
jDr.Gottlieb.No.

SenatorChafee.Youstillhadunwittingsubjects,soasbestyou
canrecall,despitetheconcernthatwasshownoverthedeathofMr.
IOlsonandthefactthatyougotmedicaltestimonyinwhichthe
jwholesubjectofthetieinbetweenLSDandMr.Olson'sdeath
wasdiscusseddespiteallofthat,thingswentonjustasinthe
Ipastasfarasunwittingsubjectswereconcerned?
jDr.Gottlieb.Well,ifyouaddtothatstatement,Senator,that
^therewasalotofseriousdiscussionaboutwhethertogoonornot,
~myanswerwouldbeyes.
SenatorChafee.Thedecisionwas,don'tchangeanything?
IDr.Gottlieb.Well,thebestIcanrespondtothat,thatseemsto
bethecase.
jSenatorKennedy.Justinthisarea,again,togetbacktothe
jnumbersofpeoplethatwereactuallytested,youwereoutofthe
countryforaperiodof5years
IDr.Gottlieb.Actually2years.
jSenatorKennedy.Twoyears.
1Doyouknowwhatwasgoingoninthesafehousesthen?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavenorecollectionofthatatall.

j'SenatorKennedy.Wouldyouassume,thattherewastesting
iduringthis2yearperiod?

as

189
Dr.Gottlieb.Iassumethat.^
Ithinksomeofthecheckswell,thereisnoquestionaboutthat.
SenatorKennedy.ThethingthatIfindtroublesomeisthatwith11
thesenseofurgencythatyouplacedontheprogramfromtiebeginH
ning,theprioritythatithadintermsofthedirectors,diebrief
ingsthathadtakenplace,thereviewsofthevariousprograms,them
indicationsthatyouwereforcontinuationoftheprogramandtheI
urgencythatyouplacedevenintermsofyourtestimonyheretoday,"J
whyyoubelievethattherewereonly30individualswhowereactually
impactedoraffectedoveraperiodof14years.
Thereisdifficulty,Ifind,intakingbothofthose,juxtaposing
bothofthosekindsofstatementsorcomments,particularlyagainst
abackgroundwherewehavescoresofchecksto.thesamepeople,
keptinthesamefile,withastrongpossibilityforsameservices.
Andyouhavereservationsaboutthebreadthoftheprogram.

Imean,25isjust2ayear,2individuals,1ontheeastcoastand1
onthewest.Ijustthinkthatthatisdifficulttoaccept.
Dr.Gottlieb.Iamjusttryingtorespond,Senator,appropriately
toyou,toyourquestion.
SenatorKennedy.Fine.
Dr.Gottlieb.Inthefirstplace,asfarasthegeneralconceptof
wherethisfittingintotheoverallprogram,itwasconceivedofsort
ofthelastthingthatmightbedonetogetusefulinformation.
Itwasnotanumbersgame.Itwasnotaquestionofdoingthis
hundredsoftimes.
Asfarasrationalizingthenumberofcheckswithcertainamounts
ofmoneywiththemagainstestimatesItoldyouabout,IthinkI
ammostlybasingmyimpressionsonthosetimesthatIwasaware
byMr.Whitetellingmethatoneofthesehadtakenplace.
Again,IwanttoreiterateIcannottestifythatitwasnotadmin
istered200times.Therewasthispointabouttheeastandwestcoast.
Pleaseremember,actuallythetunesthat2safehousesexistedat
oncewereoverafairlyshortperiod.
SenatorKennedy.Wewilljustputintherecordthenumbers
ofcashedchecksandnumbersofpaymentsduringthatperiodoftime.
Letmemoveon.
Mr.Lsnzneb.Willtherecordreflectthattherewere32checks
thatweredesignatedasStormychecks,becausethewitnesshas
testified
SenatorKennedy.Wewillprintallthechecksintherecord,and

thenumbersforeachperiodoftime,andthenumberswhichindicate
Stormyduringthoseyearsaswell.
Mr.Lenzneb.Thankyou.
SenatorKennedy.WastheFBIinvolvedinanyoftheseprograms?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iamhesitating,Senator,tobesureIgiveyou,a
consideredanswer.
Myoffthehatanswerwouldbenottomyremembrance.
SenatorSchweikeb.Toyourknowledge,didanyoftheunwitting
victimsrequirehospitalization?
Dr.Gottlieb.Youaretalkingaboutdomesticactivities,now?
SenatorSchweikeb.Inthesafehouses.
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavearemembrance,Ihaveonlvahazyremem
branceofthathavinghappenedonceinNewYorkCity.
SenatorSchweikeb.Didyouhaveotherdetailsaboutanysuch:I
incidents?Canyoutellusanythingmoreaboutthatcase?u

190
Dr.Gottlieb.No,sir.
SenatorKennedy.Canyoutelluswhatwaslearnedfromtheyears

oftheoperationofthesafehouse?
Wasituseful?
Whatcanyoutellus?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ithinkwhatwelearnedfromthesafehouseswas
moreaboutwhatyoucouldnotdothanwhatyoucoulddo.Thatwas
asrelevantaspositiveinformation.
Ithinktheconclusionfromalltheactivities,wasthatitwasvery
difficulttopredictablymanipulatehumanbehaviorinthisway,and
thatwouldbeasummarystatementIwouldmake.
SenatorKennedy.Obviously,youbelievedthattheSovietsor
otheradversariesweredoingit,asIunderstandit?
Dr.Gottlieb.Webelievedtheymightbedoingit,Senator.Ihave
triedtobeverycarefulinexplainingtoyouwhywefeltthat.
SenatorKennedy.Justwithregardtotheusefulnessoftheinfor
mation,didthelessonsthatwerelearnedinthesehouseshaveany
operationaluse?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iwouldhavetosayyes.
Ithinkwewouldhavebeeninafarworsepositionintermsofbeing
abletobrief"jthePresident'sphysiciansbeforethesetrips,tofield
inquiriesaboutthisarea,withoutit.
SenatorKennedy.Doyouknowwhetheritledtothecovertuse
ofdrugsbytheIntelligenceAgency?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iwasadvisedbyyourstaffthattheareaofthe
overseasuseofthesedrugswasnotoneofyourprimaryinterests.

Isthataccurate?
SenatorKennedy.Well,thedetailsofit.
ButIthinkifyoucouldanswerwhetheryouknowifinformation
thatwasdevelopedinthesesafehouseswasusedforcovertoperations
overseaswithoutgettingintocountriesorwithoutgetting
Dr.Gottlieb.Myanswerwouldbeyes.
SenatorKennedy.Canyoutellustheextentofit?
Dr.Gottlieb*Well,thebestresponseIcangivetothat,because
weareinanareaherethatIdoworryaboutbeingpreciseabout,but
Iwouldlike
SenatorKennedy.Ifyoudonofr
Dr.Gottlieb.SuggestingIsuggestyouaskCIAwhichhasthat
information.
SenatorKennedy.Well,couldweturnthen
Dr.Gottlieb:MayIaddonething?
SenatorKennedy.Sure.
Dr.Gottlieb.Thisareawasgoneoverinextensivedetailbythe
Churchcommittee.
SenatorKennedy.Fine.Thatisfine.
Dr.Gottlieb.Itestifiedfullyonit.
SenatorKennedy.CanweturntosomeoftheotherMKULTRA
projects.

I)idyouknowDr.Geschickter?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.WhatdidhedofortheCIA?
Dr.Gottlieb.IwoulddividethethingswhichDr.Geschickterdid
fortheCIAinthreeparts.

**

191
Iwanttosayrightnowthatfrommyremembranceofourrelations||
overagoodnumberofyears,Dr.Geschickterisexactlyoneofthese
individualsIwasreferringtowho,outofthemostpatrioticand^
constructivemotiveschosetohelpus,andI'haveadeepconcernfor|
whatmayhavehappenedtohisreputationasaresultofthedis^
closuresthathavebeenmade.
ButIwoulddividethisinthreeparts:ft
Inthefirstplace,theGeschicktermedicalfundwasaconduitforj

fundingotherprojects,andwasveryusefulinthatway,someofwhich
thepurposessomeofwhichasfarasweareconcerned,thereasonsm
whywewantedtodoit,Weremadeawaretohimandsomewerenot.%
ThesecondusewemadeofDr.Geschickterwashehadhisown**
medicalintereststhatwerebasedonhisinterestasapathologistin
cancerandarthritisandhypertensionandseveralotherthings.%
Wewereinterestedinmaterialswhichhehimselfwasexperimenting||
withintermsofsomeoftheeffects,sideeffectssometimes,thathad
todowithwhatwecalledmateriallikethekindImentioned,wehadm
evidenceotherswereusing,knockoutmaterialandpsychogenic|i
materials,andsothatwasthesecond.purpose.
ThethirdpurposewastouseDr.Geschickterwhowasclosetous
hereinWashingtonasgeneralconsultant.Iandotherindividualsthati|
workedwithmewouldoftengodownanddiscussaproblemthatwei*
hadandgethishelpinthinkingthroughwhatthecorrectandappro
priateapproachwouldbe.f|
SenatorKennedy.Buthewasawittingparticipantintheactivities}J
oftheagency.
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.Wewentoverinthecourseofpurhearingsif
yesterday,thedevelopmentoftheAgency'srelationshipwithGeorge:*

townUniversity.
CanyoutefluswhatweretheAgency'sintentionsingetting|I
intothatprojecttobuildthewing?II
Dr.Gottlieb.MostofwhatIcansaythatIfeelwerethegive
youusefulbackgroundrestonwhatIreadtheotherday.m
Thishappenedalongtimeago.Butmyremembrancewasthatwej
consideredourrelationshipwithDr.Geschickteraveryvaluable
oneforthereasonsthatImentioned,andthatthecontributionto
thewingwasgenerallyconsideredawayinwinchwecouldinsureaf|
connectionwithhimovertheyears,tohavethesekindsofservices<*
availabletous.
SenatorKennedy.WereyoudoingittomakeDr.Geschickter?|
happy?i
Didyouhaveapurposefulkindofprojectinmind?
Dr.Gottlieb.AsIremember,havingmymemoryrefreshedby
whatIread,wehadinmindalocalfacility,alocalfacilityatwhich
workcouldgoon,andIwantspecificallytoexcludeunwittingtesting
fromthisbecausethatwasourintentionhere,withthekindofwork
thatwentoninothermoreformalMKULTRAprojectscouldgo
oncloseathand,thatwecouldvisitandseeandtalkto.
Thatwasthegeneralconcept.
SenatorScbweikeb.Didit,infact,happenthatway?

Dr.Gottlieb.Itdidnot.

192""f
I
Lookingbackatitinretrospect,andreadingthesefilesinretroI
spectmayseeminfact,theplansthatweremadetoactuallyhave
afacilityatwhichformalandinstitutionalresearchwouldgoon,in|
areasofinteresttous,wasjustneverrealized.|
SenatorKennedy.Yougavethemoney,though?I
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.1
SenatorKennedy.Theydid,infact,contribute$375,000.|
WhatbenefitswerederivedtotheAgencyfromthat?|
Dr.Gottlieb.Iwouldhavetosaymretrospect,theonlybenefits|
thattheAgencyderivedwasmaintainingproductiverelationship
withDr.Geschickter,himself.*

SenatorKennedy.Therewasnotanyresearchdoneatthehospital?
Dr.Gottlieb.Tomyknowledgeasaresultofbuildingthatwing,I
no."|
SentcorKennedy.Well,theDirectorsayshethoughtthatwas^f
absolutelyincrediblethattheAgencywould1>einvolveainthat.I
Dr.Gottlieb.Myresponsetothatis,Idonotknowhowtore|
spondtothat.I
IguesstheDirectorisentitledtohisreactions.
SenatorKennedy.Hethought,asIwouldgatherfromhistesti
mony,thatitwasincrediblethattheywouldhaveputupthemoney
andthennotatleasthavederivedsomedegreeofbenefitfromthis
amountofmoneyinit.
Dr.Gottlieb.Icangiveyouaphilosophicalanswertothat,|
Senator,butIdonotknowhowhelpfulitwouldbe.f
SenatorKennedy.Whydowenot,ifwecould,gotothequestions
offiles.|
Wehadalotoftestimonyyesterdayaboutthewayrecordsweref
keptintheCIA.!
SenatorSchweiker.Haveyoufinishedyourquestionsonthe
Geschickterrelationship?

SenatorKennedy.Yes.
SenatorSchweiker.Ihaveacoupleofquestionsonthat.\
AlongthesamelinethatSenatorKennedywaspursuingwithre|
gardtothehospitalwing,Subproject35ofMKtJLTRA,wehave|
ereamemorandumfromtheCIAfiles.|
ItsaysthatintheeventofDr.Geschickter'sdeath,theprojectsI
willcontinue:"anyactivitiesunderthisprojectwillbecontinued1
throughtheGeschickterFundandwillbeunaffectedbyhisdeath."*\
;ThememorandumalsogetsveryspecificaboutwhattheCIAwill|
Vgetinreturnforitscontributiontothebuildingfund.Ihavetroublejj
reconcilingstatementslikethese,citedbytheCIAintheirfiles,with^^\
whatyoujustsaidabouttherelationshipbetweenCIAandDr.
Geschickter.''..'.1
Dr.Gottlieb.MyresponsetothatistofocusthemainpointIj
wastryingtomakeisthattherewere*plansmadeandexpectationsj
madewhenthismoneywastransferredthatsimplydidnothappen.j
Ithinksthosewereourintentionswhentheprojectwasmade,and
theyjustwerenotrealized.j
SenatorSchweiker;Well,also,inthesamedocument,itsays:j

AmemorandumofagreementwillbesignedwithDr.Geschickteroutliningto
thegreatestextentpossiblethearrangementsunderwhichthehospitalspace
underhiscontrolwillbemadeavailabletoChemicalDivisionpersonnelandthe
mannerinwhichcoverwillbeprovidedandotherbenefitsobtained.Thememo
randumofagreementwillbereturnedinTSS.

u.';)

..m1
Whatisyourresponsetothat?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ireadthatmemotheotherday.fi
Myresponsetothat,asbestasIcanrecollect,theintentionswere;J
todojustwhatyouread,togetsuchamemorandumofagreement.
Iamnotawarethatthatwaseveractuallydone,Senator.'*
SenatorSchweiker.Youdonothaveanyrecollectionofsuchai
memorandumofagreement?,sJ
Dr.Gottlieb;Ihave&goodrecollectionofthememorandumyou
read,Senator.fl
SenatorSchweiker.Whataboutthememoreferredtointhe||
documentIjustreadfrom?
Dr.Gottlieb.ThememoofagreementthatDr.Geschickteractually^

signedoranyimplementationoftheseriesofeventsthatyoureadI
fromthatmemo**
SenatorSchweiker.Didyoueverdiscusssuchamemorandumof
agreementwithDr.Geschickter?ft
Dr.Gottlieb.IwasnotdealingwithDr.Geschickteratthetime.fj
SenatorSchweiker.Youwerenot?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ipersonallywasnot.^
SenatorSchweiker.Thisprojectwasunderyourdirection?i|
Dr.Gottlieb.Itwas.Themanthatworkedformedealtwithit.**
SenatorSchweiker.TheprojectdescriptionssaidthreeCIA
biochemistsorscientistswouldbeprovidedcoverasoneofthebenefits11
theAgencywouldgetinreturnforitscontribution.H
Werethey,infact,providedcoverbythisproject?
Dr.Gottlieb.IwouldhavetoanswerthatthewayIdidbefore,%*
thesethingswereneverimplemented.||
SenatorSchweiker.Thatwasnotimplementedeither?
Dr.Gottlieb.No,sir,tothebestofmyrecollection.^
SenatorSchweiker.Howwasthefundingforthiswinghandled?:j
Inotherwords,howwasthe$375,000paymentmade?'"..'*

Dr.Gottlieb.Idonotrememberthefiscaldetails.
Myremembrancewashelpedbyreadingthesefilestheotherday
wasthequestionofwhethertheCIAcouldlegallydothiscertainly
cameup,andextensivelegalopinionandapprovalrightuptothe
Directorwasreceivedforit.
Butasfarasthedetailsofhowthemoneywastransferredtothe
university,asidefromthefactthatitwasputintheGeschickterFund
asanintermediatesteportheremayhavebeenotherintermediate
stepsdependingonwhattechniquestheyused,Iamnotspecifically
awareofthat.
SenatorSchweiker.Dr.Geschicktersaidyesterdaythatfunding
wasprovidedbyeither"a"PhiladelphiaFoundation,or"the"
PhiladelphiaFoundation.
Iwonderifyoucouldshedsomelightonthat?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavenorecollectiononthat.
Iwanttomakeitclear,IamnotdisputingDr.Geschickter's
statement.
ButIremembernodetailsaboutaPhiladelphiaFoundation.
SenatorSchweiker.Whydidnottheseplanscomeoff?
Wehaveaveryelaborateprojectdescription,withprettydetailed
planning.ItwasapprovedatthehighestlevelsoftheAgency.Alotof
moneywasspent.Byallindications,theprojectseemedtonavevery
highpriority,asanimportantintegralpartofyourprogram.

3"194
Hereisaverydetailed,specificmemorandumcontainingthejustifi
cationsforit.Whydidnottheplanscomeoff?
Dr.Gottlieb.MayIhavemymemoryrefreshedonthedateof
thatmemorandum?
iSenatorSchweiker.Yes.
{Dr.Gottlieb.BecauseIthinkthatisrelevanttomygivinga
^responsiveanswer.
;SenatorSchweikek.Itlookslikethedateshavebeensanitized.
!Dr.Gottlieb.MysuspicionisthattheperiodaftertheeventI
'youtalkaboutmayhavehappenedWhenIleft.|
Shortofbeingremindedofthedate,myresponsetoyou,Senator|
jSchweiker,wouldbethatIwouldhavetosayprobablyhereexpecta|
|tionsofeitherfindingpeopletodothis,qualifiedpeoplewhowereI
trainedmedicallyandtechnicallytodothiswork,couldhaveturned|
louttobeveryhardtodo,oritcouldhavebeen,also,thatthewhole^|

.thing,facedwiththerealityofimplementingit,couldhaveseemed|
":"likeaninfeasiblethingtodo.|
Ialsowanttoaddthateffortstoimplementresearch,particularly
Iwiththecomplexities,theextracomplexitiesofthiskindofcoverand
jsoon,Imeanwithresearcheffortstheyoftenareexpensiveanddo
notyieldresults.
SenatorSchweiker.Thatwouldhavebeenperceivedbeforethe|
jprojectwasdesignedapproved,wouldn'tit?Youdonothavetobean|
expertinspyingtofigureoutthatdoingthesekindsofthingsat|
GeorgetownUniversitywouldpresentsomehorrendousproblems,|
jparticularlyifyouweregoingtotrytodoitonanunwittingbasis.jj
iIhavetobelievethoseproblemswereknownbeforetheproject
wasOK'dandthattheycertainlyweretakenintoaccountbefore|
itwasapproved.Still,notwithstandingallofthesethingsthatyou
arepointingoutnow,thefilesindicatethattheplanwastogofull
speedaheadwiththisproject.
,Dr.Gottlieb.Ireallydonotknowhowtorespondtoyourquery.f
SenatorSchweiker.Wehavethedateonthedocumentyouaskedf
'aboutIbelieveit's1955.|
Dr.Gottlieb.Ididnotthinkthatwouldchangemyresponse.I

''SenatorKennedy.TheSenatorhasbeengoodenoughtoyield.|
IIjusthaveacoupleremainingareas,Dr.Gottlieb.|
Oneisontheareaoffiles.|
sjWehadalotoftestimonyyesterdayaboutthewaythefileswere|
jkeptintheCIA.|
*Somepeopletalkedabouttwosetsoffiles,onedetailedsummaryofI
theproject,andanotherboilerplate..#I
fTheboilerplatehadvariousmeanings.Itwasunclearwhetherit|
drepresentedanaccuratesummaryoramisleadingsummary.1
GouldyouhelpclarifytherecordkeepingsystemattheAgency?f
;Dr.Gottlieb.AsfarasIamconcerned,basedonthefilesthatI|
]lookedatSunday,thosefilesinthesenseofafiscalinterest,with|
justificationsthatwereinvolvedintheAgency'sregulationsatthe|
,timewerereasonablyaccurate.|
IYourreferencetoboilerplatecouldbeinterpretedinseveralways1
'Iwilldoitinmyownway.I
Iamnotawarefromreadingthosethattherewas,eitherapurpose
uj"fulmisrepresentationinwhatyouarecallingboilerplate,norwas
[Athereaninferencethatthiswasoneoftwosetsoffiles.

195I
ThetwosetsoffilesthatIunderstandwouldbe,one,thefilesthat
younowhave;andtwo,substantivesetoffileswhichcontainalot1
moretechnicaldetail.||
SenatorKennedy.Doyoufeelthesummarydocuments,theones
withyournameonthem,alwaysrepresentedthecoreoressenceof|
truthofwhatwasgoingonintheparticularproject?\
Dr.Gottlieb.Ilookedatalotoffiles,Senator.
Iwouldsayinageneralstatement,theanswerisyes.
SenatorKennedy.Canyoutellusaboutwhyyoudestroyedthefl
files,andwhichonesyoudestroyed?y[
Dr.Gottlieb.MayIreadastatementthatImade?
Ithinkitwillbetheshortestwaytoanswerthat.ft
ImadethisbeforetotheChurchcommittee,andtherehasnotbeen!|
anythingchangedinrespecttothis.
Therewerethreereasons._
One,aswiththeotherfileswhichweredestroyedinacontinuingi
andimportantCIAprogramoffilesdestructiontohandleaburgeon

ingpaperproblemtherewasconstantpressuretoretirefilesandto
destroythosefileswhichhadnofurtheruse.H
Two,withmyretirementandthatofothersconnectedwiththis||
work,andwiththedrugworkoverandinactiveforseveralyears,
thesefileswereofnoconstructiveusetotheAgency.Theywerethe
kindofsensitivefilesthatwerecapableofbeingmisunderstoodby
anyonenotthoroughlyfamiliarwiththeirbackground.
Three,thefilescontainedthenamesofprominentscientists,
researchers,andphysicianswhohadcollaboratedwithusandwhofl
hadbeenassuredthattheirrelationshipwithCIAwouldbekept||
foreverconfidential.Ifeltthatthecareersandreputationsofthese
peoplewouldbeseverelydamagedorruined,forinstance,intoday's$*
climateofinvestigations,iftheirnamesandCIAconnectionwereJ
madepublic.Ifeltaspecialdeeppersonalobligationtorespectthis
assuranceofconfidentialityandtomakeascertainasIcouldthat
theseparticularCIAsourceswouldneverberevealed.f|
Iamsorry,Ileftoutthepreamble.*J
Inlate1972andearly1973,Ibegantosystematicallycleanout
anddestroyfilesandpaperswhichwefeltweresuperfluousandnot|i
useful,relevant,ormeaningfultomysuccessors.U
Inthecaseofthedrugfiles,Ispecificallycheckedwithmysupe
riorstoobtainauthorizationsandconcurrencetodestroythesefiles.
Myreasonsforfeelingthattheyshouldbedestroyedwereessen

tiallythreefoldandhadabsolutelynothingtodowithcoveringup
illegalactivities.
SenatorKennedy.Iwouldimagineifthesewerejustpaperwork
youwouldnothavetocheckwithasuperior,wouldyou?Thiswas
somethingmoreinvolvedthanjusteliminatingpaperwork,wasitnot?
Dr.Gottlieb.ItriedtomakeclearIwasawaretherewasmore
involved,thatiswhyIchecked
SenatorKennedy.Whodidyoucheckwith?
Dr.Gottlieb.IcheckedwithMr.Helms,whowasthenDirector.
SenatorKennedy.Didheorderthedestruction?
Dr.Gottlieb.Certainlydidnotorderthem,heconcurred.
SenatorKennedy.Yourequestedtheybedestroyed
Dr.Gottlieb.No,no.

186
Irequested,Iwasreallyaskinghisauthorizationtodestroythem.
Oneneedstomakeadecisionalwaysastowhatyouneedtogoto
yoursuperiorsfor.
SenatorKennedy*Youfeltyoushouldonthisone?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorKennedy.So,certainly,thepaperworaspectwasnot

*reallytheoverridingconcernthatyouhad.Itwastheseotherreasons?
**Dr.Gottlieb.No,Iwouldhavetoaddthatthatwasthemotive
behindmygoingthroughallmyfiles.
SenatorKennedy.Youarenottryingtoleavetheimpressionthat
thatwaseither&principaljustificationorreasontodestroythefiles,
areyou?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iamsimplysayingitwasoneofthem.
SenatorKennedy.ThethingthatIsupposewewouldhaveto
understand,havingbeengiventhekindofprioritythatyoustated
thisprogramwouldhave,yourownstrongcommitmenttoitoverthe
recordoftheexchangeswehavehadthismorningandtheother
record,andyourbeliefintheimportanceofthisintermsofsecurity
reasons,thatyoufeltthatthiskindofprogramwascontinuingall
thewayfrom1973whenyoulefttheAgency.Iwouldhavetoask
whyyoufeltthatthenationalsecurityreasonsjustifiedtheir
destruction?
Dr.Gottlieb.SenatorKennedy,Ithinkacarefulsearchofthe
recordswouldshowthatitwasmethatterminatedthisprojectand
thatImanytimesgavethereasonswhy.
ThefactthatatoneperiodinhistoryIfeltstronglythiswasa
relevantandurgentprogram,andthatinanothertimelater,Ispecif
icallynotonlyrecommendedbutimplementeditstermination,tome
arenotinconsistent.
SenatorKennedy.Well,youindicatedtousthatatthetimeyou
leftin1973,thattheuseofthehebavioralkindsofdrugswasatleast
stillbeingcontinuedbyadversaries.
Imean,yougavethatcertainimpressiontous.

Andyouspelledoutveryclearlyinyourformalstatementandothers
thatyoufeltthisprogramwasofagreatkindofimportance.
Iamjustwondering,whenyousuddenlywentalongonjustification,
youurgeditscontinuationin1963,whyatsomepointyousuddenly
decidedthatthe.nationalsecurityinterestswerenotservedbyat
leastkeepingtheinformationandmaterialthathadbeengathered
fromalltheseexpendituresandfromalltheworkthatwasdone.
fDr.Gottlieb.Oneresponsetoyourquestion,Senator,wouldbe
thatthesubstantivetechnicalworkdoneon99percentofthese
projectswaspublishedinopenliteratureandavailable.Therewas
nothingusefulinthefilesthatcouldaddtothat.
Thesecondpointis,Imustcomebacktowhatperiodoftimewe
aretalkingabout.
AsItriedtosay,therebecameagrowingrealizationthatwhatever
theforeignthreatmightbeby1973orevenearlierthanthat,that
thatwasnotajustificationtodoanymorethankeepingintouch
withseveralindividualsinthisprogramtobeabletoanswerquestions
thatmightcomeup,thataprogramofthiskindwasnolongerjustified.
Itwasnotthatthethreatmayhavelessened,itwaswhatwecould
usefullydoaboutit.
SenatorKennedy.Youmadethatdecisionin1973?
Dr.Gottlieb.No,no.

PS"

197
Iwouldhavetoexaminethefiles.Thedecisionwasagrowingone.
Ithinkyourownexaminationofthefileswasshowingthatalthough
thismayhavebeenaformalofficialdeterminationofitthen,tne
thingtaperedofftoalmostnothingby1967or1968.
SenatorKennedy.Butthedestruction,thedecisiontodestroy
SenatorSchweiker.IsitnottruethatyourDeputyobjectedto
thedestructionoffilesforthereasonsthatwearegettingathere?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihaveonlyheardthatasarumor.
Ihaveneverseenamemoonthatsubjectandneverdiscussedit
withthepersonwhowasmyDeputyatthetime.
Idonotknowwhetheryouaresayinghetoldyouheobjectedtoit
orwhetherhetoldyouhe.toldme.Hemightwellhave.Apersoncan
havedifferentfeelingsaboutit.
SenatorSchweiker.WhenyoudiscusseditwithyourDeputy,do
yourecallhishavingobjectedtodestroyingtherecords?
1havegottobelievehewouldhaveexpressedhisreasonsforobject
ing_toittoyou,thathewouldgiveyouhisopinion.
Dr.Gottlieb.Idonotrecallthatdiscussionwiththepersonwho
wasmyDeputy.Ihavenorecollectionofit.
Iamnotsayingitdidnothappen.Hesaysitdid.
SenatorKennedy.Dr.Gottlieb,SenatorSchweikerisjustgoingto
continuethequestions.

Ihaveaskedhimtoaskabriefoneformeattheconclusion.
Ihavetoexcusemyself.Iappreciateyourpresencehere.
SenatorSchweiker.Dr.Gottlieb,goingbacktotheroleplayedby
Dr.GeschickterandtheGeschickterfund,didDr.Geschickterin
essenceoverseeexpendituresofseveralmilliondollarsworthof
projectsorchanneledthroughhisfund,actingasaconduit?
Dr.Gottlieb.IwouldsayIwouldhavetodisagreewiththefirst
partofyourstatementandagreewiththesecondone.
SenatorSchweiker.Youstateyourunderstandingoftherelation
ship.
Dr.Gottlieb.Heprovidedtheconduitforsumsofmoneyinthe
amountyouaretalkingabout.Hecertainlywasnotaskedtosuper
vise
SenatorSchweiker.Youdidsayearlierhewasusedbyyouinsome
consultingcapacityoccasionally?
Dr..Gottlieb.Butnotnecessarilyontheproject.
SenatorSchweiker.Notontheseparticularprojects?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorSchweiker.Hecitedthefigureofabout$2.3million,asI
recall,astheamountofmoneythathisfundhandledfortheCIA.
Doesthatringabellwithyou?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iwouldhavetosaythatseemsreasonable.
SenatorSchweiker.Inlisteningtoyourdescriptionofthefunctions

thatDr.GeschickterperformedandinreadingtheCIAfilesaboutthe
relationship,thereisobviouslyawide,unaccountedfordiscrepancy
betweenwnatthefilessayandwhat,infact,accordingtobothyou
andDr.Geschickterhappenedparticularlyintermsoftheagreement
whichwassupposedtobeworkedoutforuseofthefacilityatGeorge
town,theGormanBuilding,theplannedexperimentswhichyousay
werenotconductedthere,theuseofpatientsassubjects,etcetera.
MightweviewthisbuildingfundcontributionastheCIA'sdonation
toDr.Geschickter'sfavoritecharityinordertokeephimasan
ongoingconsultanttotheCIA?

198|

Isthatreallywhatweareseeinghere?
Dr.Gottlieb.Areyouaskingme,Senator,whetherthatismy
perspective?
SenatorSchweiker.Yes.
Dr.Gottlieb.No,itisnotmyperspective.
SenatorSchweiker.Hereisagreementthatnobodylivedupto,
whichdidnotmeanathing.Italmostlookslikeitwaswrittendown
asasortofcharade.Nobodyknowsaboutthefacilityprovidingany
cover,nobodyknowsabouthavingonesixthofthespaceavailable
forclause,nobodytestedanythingtherenopeoplewentinandout
onanyspecificresearchprojects.Nobodyknowsaboutanythingthat

wastobeincludedintheagreementeverhappening.
Ido_notknowwhatotherconclusionIcoulddrawexceptthatit
lookslikeagoodwillofferingtoDr.Geschickter.
Dr.Gottlieb.TheonlyTightIcouldthrowonthatistorepeat
whatIsaidbefore.
Myperspectiveisthesewereplansthattherewereintentionsto
carryout,thatjustwerenot.
SenatorSchweiker.ItseemsliketheCIAwenttoanawfullotof
fussandbother,anditseemsalsothattheproblemsthatyoumen
tionedafewmomentsago^securityproblems,andsoforthallofthose
problemswereknownbeforethisagreementwasworkedout.Todo
thesortofthingsdescribedintheproposedagreement,atGeorgetown
evenifonlywillingsubjectswereusedwouldsurelyhaveraised
redflags.Yettheprojectwasapproved.
Icomebacktothefactthatitlookstomeasifitwasanartificial
deviceforkeepingDr.Geschickterhappybecausehewasusefulto
theCIAinsomesortofconsultantrole.
Dr.Gottlieb.YousaidsomethingtherethatIneedtounderstand
better.Didyousaywittingorunwitting?
SenatorSchweiker.Witting,eveniftheintentionwasonlytouse
wittingsubjects.MaybeIdidnotsaythat.
Dr.Gottlieb.Itishelpful,Senator,myperspectiveonthiswas
thatofanexpensiveprojectthatjustnevertookplace.
Ifyouaresaying,wasitwasteful,myanswerwouldhavetobe
yesintermsofCIA'sinterest.
SenatorSchweiker.Theprojectmaynothavetakenplace,you

say,buteveryoneagreesthattheprojectwaspaidforthemoney
wasspent.Youaresaymginyouropinionitwasnotamatterof
donatingtoDr.Geschickter'sfavoritecharitytokeepupagood
relationshipthereforconsultingpurposes?
Dr.Gottlieb.Imentionedbeforewhenthissubjectfirstcameup
thatanelementintryingtoimplementthiswastoinsurethecon
tinuationofallthreeservicesthatImentionedweweregettingfrom
Dr.Geschickter,thatthatwasanelement.
Buticertainlywouldhavetosay,no,theperspectiveyoumentioned
wasnotmine.
SenatorSchweiker.Youmentioneditinyourstatementthata
numberoftheprojectsinMKULTRA,Iguessallofthoseconducted
attheuniversities,wereultimatelypublished,amicorrect?
Dr.Gottlieb.Mostofthem.
SenatorSchweiker.Mostofthem.

199
Dr.Gottlieb.Totheextentthatinformationwaspublishedthat
waspublishable.WhatIreallymeanis,thattheywerenotthekind
ofthingsthatweredevelopingdatathatwasconsideredsecret.
*SenatorSchweikeb.Ifthatwastrue,whydidwefeelthat"potential
enemiesofthiscountrywouldbegreatlybenefited,"asyoualsosay
inyourstatement,iftheyknewaboutthenatureandprogressofour
research.Iamconfusedbyyourapparentconcernaboutourenemies'

learingaboutourwork,whenatthesametimeyoumaketheobser
vationthatmostofthisworkwaspublishedintheopenliterature
anyway.
Canyouclarifythat?
Dr.Gottlieb.IthinkIunderstandthereasonyouareconfused.
WhatIwastryingtomakecleartherewasthatifyouturnthe
situationaround,thiscountry'sintelligenceorganswouldfinditvery
valuableiftheycouldestablishthatanothercountry'sintelligence
oigansaresponsoringacoherentgroupofprojectsandwoulddraw
someprettyaccurateconclusionsastospecificallywhattheirinterest
mightbe.
SenatorSchweiker.Let'slookatsomeexamplesherefromthe
CIAfilesaboutthekindofresearchthattheAgencyhadinmind,
areasofresearchwhichtheresearchanddevelopmentprogramofthe
TSSChemicalDivisionwassupporting.
Inadocumentrelatingtosubproject35,whichofcoursewascon
nectedwithDr.Geschickterandhisfund,wefindalistofmaterials
andmethodstheAgencywasinterestedin.I'llreadafewitems:
1.Substanceswhichwillpromoteillogicalthinkingandimpulsivenesstothe
pointwheretherecipientwouldbediscreditedinpublic.
2.Substanceswhichincreasetheefficiencyofmentationandperception.
3.Materialswhichwillpreventorcounteracttheintoxicatingeffectofalcohol.<m
4.Materialswhichwillpromotetheintoxicatingeffectofalcohol.rJ
5.Materialswhichwillproducethesignsandsymptomsofrecognizeddiseases41
inareversiblewaysothattheymaybeused.formalingering,etc.

6.Materialswhichwillrendertheinductionofhypnosiseasierorotherwise?*
enhanceitsusefulness.iyi
7.Substanceswhichwillenhancetheabilityofindividualstowithstandprivaii
tion,tortureandcoercionduringinterrogationandsocalled"brainwashing".
8.Materialsandphysicalmethodswhichwillproduceamnesiaforeventspre
cedingandduringtheiruse.||
Andthelistgoeson."*
Surely,thesewouldnotbenormalkindsofuniversityprojectsthat
wearediscussing?ft
Dr.Gottlieb.IthinkdatawhichwasdevelopedonallbutasmallU
amountoftheworkthatwasdoneinnormaluniversitysettings
indeedwasdonetogetbasicdatathatwefeltdidnotexistthatwereg|
relevanttothesequestions.||
SenatorSchweiker.Thelistalsoincludesresearchintophysical
methodsofproducingshockandconfusionoverextendedperiodsof
timeandcapableofsurreptitioususe;andsubstanceswhichproduce|
physicaldisablementsuchasparalysisofthelegs,acuteanemia,etc.^*
Thesecertainlywouldnotbepublished?
Dr.Gottlieb.Theywouldnotbepublishedundertheheadings||
thatyouaretalkingabout,butaresearcherdoingtheactualwork||
thatneededtobedone,first,onanimals,togetthiskindofdata,

wouldcertainlyhavealotofdatathatwasperfectlypublishable,andji
didnotnecessarilymentiontheseends.|g
r'"

Sil

300
Apotentialenemyanalysiso/awholegroupofprojectscouldvery
readilyleadhimtothoseconclusions.
IdonotknowifImakethatclear.
SenatorSchweiker.Iguessso.Ithinkit'simportanttopointout
thatinthesamedocumentwherethislistappears,explicitreferenceis
madetohumantesting,whichraisesproblemsthat"cannotbe
ghandledbytheordinarycontractor."
IhadearlieraskedtheDirectorontwooccasionsaboutbrain
concussionstudies.
Oneoftheprojectdescriptionsreferstotestingfluidfilledflasksand
usingothermeansinanattempttofindouthowthebrainisshocked
byconcussionorblasteffects.AtonepointIwastoldthatitwasan
OfficeofNavalResearchprojectandtheCIAwasonlyindirectly
interested.
Then,DODcamebacktodayandsaidjusttheopposite,thatthis,
infact,wasaCIAproject,andtheOfficeofNavalResearchwasjust

aconduitforCIAfunding.'[
Canyoutellusmorespecificallyaboutthebrainconcussionstudies?
Wasthatoneofyourprojects?
Dr.Gottlieb.IdonothavethatIwanttobeVerycareful.Iam
notsayingitwasnot,Senator,butithappenedalongtimeago,and
Ididnotseeanydataonit.
AndifIwasgoingtobeasresponsiveasIwouldliketobetoyour
question,Iwouldliketohavemymemoryrefreshed.
SenatorSchweiker.Wewillgetthatforyouinamoment.
DidyouworkcloselywithDr.RobertLashbrook?
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorSchweiker.Duringthecourseofyourassociation,didyou
discussthedetailsofsafehouseprojectsaswellasotherMKULTRA
projectswithhim?
Dr.Gottlieb.MyimpressionwouldbethatIcertainlydid,but
ifyouaskmetonameinstanceswhenIdid,orafternoonsthatIdid,
Iwouldbeveryhardpressed.
SenatorSchweiker.Whatcapacitywasheinatthetimethat
youworkedcloselywithhim?
Dr.Gottlieb.Ithink,asIremember,hewasmydeputy.
SenatorSchweiker.Woulditnotbefairlynaturalthatalmost
alloperationalmaterialandinformationwouldbeavailabletohim,
withfewexceptions?
Dr.Gottlieb.Pardonme?

tIamconsultingwithmyattorneybecausethereisanotherindividual
involvedhereandIdonotwanttounknowinglyharmhim.
SenatorSchweiker.Allright.
[Shortpause.]
SenatorSchweiker.Doyouhavearesponse?
Dr.Gottlieb.IneedtoberemindedofthequestionbecauseI
thoughtthequestionwas:DoIrememberorshouldhehavehad
knowledgeofeverythinggoingon
SenatorSchweiker.Becausehewasyourdeputy.
Dr.Gottlieb.Myimpressionis"Yes."
SenatorSchweiker.Hereisthedocumentationrelatingtothe
brainconcussionproject.
YouarespecificallylistedasanaccreditedCIAtechnicalliaison
representativefortheproject,alongwithanotherperson.

201
Dr.Gottlieb.Bemember,Senator,Ididnotdenyknowledgeof
this.
SenatorSchweikeb.Iamtryingtohelpyouremember.
Iamshowingyouthedocuments.Imowyoudidnotdenyin
volvementinthfeproject.Iwouldliketoestablishwhetherornot
thiswasyourproject,aCIAprojectDODsaiditwasaCIAproject.

ThisisamemodatedNovember1954.
Dr.Gottlieb.Beadingthis,Istilldonothaveaspecificrecol
lectionofthisprojectbutLwouldnotdisputethatitwas.
Inanswertoyourquestionaboutwhatweweredoingandwhy,
thebestanswerIcangiveyouisthatithadsomethingtodowitha
seriesofultimateendsofthenaturethatyoureadbefore.
Itsoundslikeahighlytheoreticalstudyofthekindthatcouldbe
published,bytheway,thatwouldbackstopandleadperhapstoother
investigations.Itsoundsthatwayfromreadingthepaper.
SenatorSchweikeb.AsIrecallfromreadingmoredetaileddocu
mentsthatIhavenotputbeforeyoutoday,theprojectdescription
alsodiscusseswhatittakestoinduceconcussionandhowtosneak
uponapersonandinduceaconcussion,andhowtohavethatoccur
withoutthepersonsbeingwittingofit.Thepurposewastoproduce
aconcussionwithmaximumamnesiaandnovisibleinjury.
Therewerealotoframificationstothatsortofresearch.
Dr.Gottlieb.Yes.
SenatorSchweikeb.InthememorandumitlistspeoplefromCIA
who,haveknowledgeofit,and,interestinglyenough,itdoesnotlist
anytechnicalpeoplefromtheOfficeofNavalResearch.
Wouldthatnotbeaprettyclearindicationthatprimetechnical
responsibilitywouldhaverestedwithyoufolks?
Dr.Gottlieb.Senator,IdidnotsayitwasanONRproject,Ido
notwanttobeheldtothat.Ibelievesomeoneelsesaidthat.
SenatorSchweikeb.Readingthememo,canyounotmakea

judgment,seeinghowthiswasstructured
Dr.Gottlieb.IthoughtIsaidfromwhatIwasreadingthere,it
probablywasaCIAproject.
SenatorSchweikeb.Dr.Gottlieb,whatdoyouknowaboutthe
knowledgeofMr.Anslinger,oftheBureauofNarcotics,orother
BureauofNarcotics'officials,regardingMorganHallssafehouse
activities.
Inotherwords,howfaruptheBureauofNarcotics'chainof
commanddidawarenessofMr.Hall'soperationsgo?
Dr.Gottlieb.IthinktheonlythingIcansaythatmightreally
helpyouonthisinthesensethatIamtalkingaboutmyownknowl
edge,andnotassumptionsorinferencesorimpressions,WasthatMr.
Anslingerwasknowledgeableofthesafehousesthatwesetupand
why.
SenatorSchweikeb.AnyotherBureauofNarcotics'officialsthat
cometomind?
Dr.Gottlieb.No.
SenatorSchweikeb.WhydidtheCIAtakeoverMr.Hall'ssalary
foratime?!
Wediscussedthatearlierandyousaidthisonly'wentonforafew.
months.Whatwastherationaleforthisdeparturefromtherule?

202

is

Dr.Gottlieb.Iprefacedthisbysayingthereisnorecordthathas
beenkeptofthis,thatwhatIamgoingtotrytorelatetoyou,andit
isperhapsalittlefuzzyinmymind,andIbegyourindulgencethere
forwhatmightseemlikesomediscrepancies.
Therewasaperiod,andtheperiodisexactlymentionedinsome
ofthefilesthatweremadeavailabletomeonSunday,wherefor
reasonsIamnotentirelysureof,ithadsomethingtodowithsome
ofhispastactivitiesaboutsomepeopleinhighplaceswhowerevery
angrywithhim,anditwasusefulforMr.Anslingertonothavehim
specificallyontheBureauofNarcotics'payrollforaperiodoftime.
Heapproachedmeandsaid,sinceweareinthiscollaborativeeffort,^
wouldyoupeoplebekindenoughtoformallytakehissalaryforaf
periodthroughmesothatIcouldhonestlysaythatheisworkingforI
anotheragencyforthisperiod.Thatwasthebackgroundofit.g
SenatorSchweiker.SomeoftheprojectsunderMKULTRAin^f
volvedhypnosis,isthatcorrect?|
Dr.Gottlieb.Yjes.
SenatorSchweikeh.Didanyoftheseprojectsinvolvesomething|
calledradiohypnoticintracerebralcontrol,whichisacombination,I

asIunderstandit,inlayman'sterms,radiotransmissionsand|
hypnosis?1
Dr.Gottlieb.Myansweris"No."|
SenatorSchweiker.Nonewhatsoever?I
Dr.Gottlieb.Well,Iamtryingtoberesponsivetotheterms|
thatyouused.|
AsIrememberit,therewasacurrentinterest,runninginterest,all|
thetimeinwhataffectspeople'sstandinginthefieldofradioenergy|
have,anditcouldeasilyhavebeenthatsomewhereinmanyprojects,f
someonewastryingtoseeifyoucouldhypnotizesomebodyeasierifI
hewasstandinginaradiobeam.I
Thatwouldseemlikeareasonablepieceofresearchtodo.f
WhatIamsaying,Idonotseethatbeingthefocusofalargejj
interestorsuccessfulresultcomeoutofthis.|
SenatorSchweiker.WedidhavesometestimonyyesterdaythatS
radarwaveswereusedtowipeoutmemoryinanimalexperiments.
Dr.Gottlieb.Icanbelievethat,Senator.
Iwouldremindyouthattheproblemofradiowavesandwhatit

doestopeopleisextremelycurrentinterestinconnectionwithevents
inanimportantembassyoverseasnow.Thereisagreatconcernabout
that.
SenatorSchweiker.Subproject39involvedresearchon142
criminallyinsaneindividuals.Researchtechniquesincludedstraight
interrogation,hypnosis,hypnosisinconjunctionwithLSD,andLSD
withinterrogation.
Canyou'shedanylightonthisexperimentorwhatthepurposefor
gettingintothisareawas?Howsuccessfuloreffectivewastheproject?
Dr.Gottlieb.IhavetoagainaskforadateonthatifIcangetit.
ThereasonIwasaskingforadate,therewasaratherlargeperiod
oftimethatIwasnotinvolvedinthisatall.
SenatorSchweiker.Wehaveone.ItisApril7,1958.
Dr.Gottlieb.Iwasnotinthecountry,notconnectedwithLSD,
hadnoknowledgeofit.

203
SenatorSchweiker.DidyoueverinyourworkunderMKULTRA
orotherworkinyourdivision,buy"reject"drugsfrompharmaceutical
concerns?
Iuse"reject"inthetradesense,drugswouldnotbeavailableon

thecommercialmarketbecausetheycouldnotmeetthestandardsfor
somereasooranother,suchashavingtoomanyadversesideeffects.
&Dr.Gottlieb.CanIspeculateonamisunderstandingofthatterm,
*Senator?
SenatorSchwbiker.Certainly.Becauseitmaybehelpful.
Dr.Gottlieb.Youmaybetalkingaboutatermusedfordrugs
^whichdrugcompaniestestandfindhavesideeffectswhichmitigate
commercialexploitation,becausethemilitaryhadacontinuingpro
gram,averyaggressiveone,topinpointthoseinasensethattheynad
effectsofinteresttothemilitary,andwedidhaveliaisonwiththe
militaryandwereinterested.ButthatiswhatIthinkwearetalking
*about"reject."
SenatorSchweiker.Iacceptyourdefinition.
Now,werethereanyofthesekindsofdrugsusedaspartofyour
ongoingMKULTRAorothertestingprograms*andifso,forwhat
purpose?
Dr.Gottlieb.Aninterestinthemtheresurelywas.Thepurpose
was,inourcontinuingsearchfordrugsthatmighthaveanyofthe
effectsonthatlistthatyoustartedtoreadbefore.
SenatorSchweiker.Wasanyofthisworkfruitful,toyour
knowledge?
Dr.Gottlieb.Inaway,IguessthatisthewayLSDcametoour
knowledge.LSDwasoneofthesecompoundsmadebySandosPhar
maceuticalCo.

,Becauseofthesebizarresideeffectsithad,theyhadnocommercial
\useforit.
SenatorSchweiker.WheredidyougetyourLSDforyourtests?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iamalittlehazyonexactlywhere.But~Ihavegot
aprettygoodidea.ItwasfromoneofthemajorU.S.pharmaceutical
houseswhoweremakingdrugsofasimilarstructureiandwhowe
interestedinmanufactunngLSDforus.
SenatorSchweiker.Iwanttomakeaclarificationregardingthe
timeperiodofsubproject39.
Therecordshowsthatsubproject39,dealingwithcriminally
insaneindividualsandusingsuchtechniques,ashypnosis,hypnosis
withLSD,andLSDinterrogations,actuallybeganin1954andlasted
through1959,a5yearperiod.ThememoIreferredtoearlierwas
datedn1958,whileyouwereoutofthecountry,buttheproject
coveredamuchlongertimeframe.
Andthecostwasestimatedat$30,000.
Dr.Gottlieb.Ihavebeengivenapieceofpaperthatwillgivemea
littlebitmoreinformationaboutthis.Iwillreaditandtrytorespond.
Iwilljustreadyouwhatwewrote:
Itisthoughtthatthesepersonshavethesamekindofmotivationforwith
holdingcertaininformationthatiscomparabletooperationalinterrogationsin
thefield.
Thatwouldbeaclearremembranceofmine,andhavingbeen
stimulatedbyreadingthisastowhywewereinit.

1
!

I204
SenatorSchweikeb.Dr.Gottlieb,besidesthesafehousesthatwe
Ihavediscussedinsomedepthhere,whereelseweredrugstestedon
{unwittingsubjects?Weknowthesetestswentonincertainsafe
houses.
>Whataboutotherplacesandlocations,toyourknowledge?
)Dr.Gottlieb.AreyoutalkingaboutwiththeUnitedStates?
:],rSenatorSchweikeb.Yes.
**Dr.Gottlieb.Idonotremembernowtheplaceswherethatwas
)done,unwittingtests.Wecertainly,asIindicatedbefore,didalot

]oftestingonourselves.
SenatorSchweikeb.Well,now,wehadsomeinformationindicating^
\thatdrugswereslippedtounwittingsubjectsinbarsinNewYork
:{City,
Dr.Gottlieb.Iamsorry,Iwasinmymindputtingthoseunder
theumbrellaofthesafehouse.
]'Ididnotrealizeyoumeantspecifically,physicallyoutside
v!SenatorSchweikeb.Howdidyourelatethemtosafehouses,so'%
Iunderstand^I
iDr.Gottlieb.Theywereunwittingadministrationsthatweref
ImadebyMorganHallorthroughMorganHall.1
Iwouldliketosay,togivethemostpreciseanswertothatthatI|
canisthat.IamnotspecificallyawareinthesensethatIcanremember,|
!look,thiswasdoneinabar.a|
>ButIhavenoreasontothinkthatthatwasnotdone.I
SenatorSchweikeb.Whatdidyoudowiththequantitiesofmaterial|
ithatultimatelycameintoyourpossessiondrugs,poisons,toxic|
(substanceswhicheitherwereproducedforyouorwerestudiedby
you?I

_Forexample,weheardyesterdayfromDr.Geschickterthatwef
iimportedalotofpoisonmushroomsfromAfrica.Whatdidwedowith
1them?
Dr.Gottlieb.IthinktoanswerthequestionpreciselyIdidhear|
|aboutthemushroomdiscussion,andmybestremembranceofthat,|
jandIwanttounderlinethis,toansweritmostaccurately,wouldjj
havetorelateittoaparticularprojectfromwhereitwasdone,but|
^1mygeneralremembranceofit,thatwasaprojectthatwasdiscussing\
%someoftheverybasicaspectsofrelatingachemicalandastructure|
toanactivity.Ittookplaceintheuniversitysomewhere,Icannot1
rememberwhere,andthatthismaterialwasprocuredinconnection4\
jwithgettingthisinvestigationormaterialforhimtoworkon.\
I^Itwasnotasecretorunwitting
k~SenatorSchweikeb.Asanormalthing,whatwouldyoudowith
}thiskindoftoxicmaterial?*
::lDr.Gottlieb.Materialliketheoneyouaretalkingaboutwould
revertentirelytotheinvestigatordoingthework.Heworkswith
,materialslikethatallthetime,anddifferentinstitutionsdodifferent

things.
]Somehaveastorageroom,Iguesstheyaccumulate;somedestroy
themafterward.
ISenatorSchweikeb.Asyouwillrecallveryvividly,ourownIn
,[telligenceCommitteelookedintoacasewheretheCIAhadmaintained
andstoredpoisontoxinsthatweresupposedtohavebeendestroyed.

205
IguesstheresponsibilityforthatfellsomewherebetweenCIAand
FortDetrick,butwehadgoodevidencethatdeadlyshellfishtoxin
wasnotdestroyedevenafteraPresidentialorder.Someofthema
terialsfromprojectslikeMKULTRAmusthavecomeintothe
Agency'shands.Whathappenedtothem?Doweknowtheywere
destroyed?$1
eDr.Gottlieb.Myexperienceismostspecificallyrovertedtoouri*
hands;motherwords,itwasnotappropriatetoleavethemwiththe
investigatorbecauseitwasn'tnormalforhimtohavethem,andalsoH
hadtodohisworkandwerekeptinthelaboratoryforstorageintheJ
~CIA..
Iguessthatlaboratory,asIremember,thishappenedafterIleft,wasm

inventoriedandreviewedandmyunderstandingfromthetestimony.fj
thatcameupinthosehearingsthatyoumentionedwerealldestroyed^
andthatdidnothappenwhileIwasthere.
*SenatorSchweikeb.Onepointthatcametolightinourreviewofft
thefinancialrecordswasthatMorganHallhadconsideredsubleasingm
thesafehouse,oratleasthehadplacedanadtosubleasethesafe
house.fl
Canyouenlightenusastowhatwashappeninghere?J
Dr.Gottlieb.Idonotrememberanythingaboutthat.
SenatorSchweikeb.ThatwasFebruary8,1955.MorganHall
wroteachecktopayforanadheplacedtosubleasethesafehouse.fl
Dr.Gottlieb.1amsorry,Senator,Idonotrememberthatincident=J
andcannotthrowanylightonit.
SenatorSchweikeb.Iknowyouhavea'planetomake,soI'lltry
toconcludethis.
Ihaveonlyoneotherareaofquestioningtoday.
EA3167,thecompoundwediscussedinouropensessionwiththe
DefenseDepartment,wastestedbyDODforCIAbyputtingitonthe
skin,whatdoesthisEA3167dotopeople?Canyoutellusinlayman's
termswhateffectyouwerelookingfor?
Dr.Gottlieb.IamrepeatingsomethingIheardtheotherday
becauseIhavenorecollectionofmyown,butasitwasexplainedto

meinmyworkwiththestaffhereonSunday,itisamaterialwhich,
whenaddedwithothermaterials,makesitpossibletoadminister
somethingtotheskinratherthanorallyorthroughtheair.
Thatismyunderstandingofit.
jSenatorSchweikeb.Itismoreorlessanadministeringagent,
then?Youaresayingyouwouldmixsomeotherdrugwithit,some
rhallucinogenorotherdrug,butEA3167itselfhasnoparticulareffect?
Dr.Gottlieb.Iwanttobecareful,Senator,
tIdonothaveindependentknowledgeofthis.Iamtryingtointer
pretthatfromwhatsomeoneonyourstafftoldme.Thatismy
interpretationofit.
SenatorSchweikeb.Iguessthatconcludesourlineofquestions
foryou,Dr.Gottlieb.
Weappreciateyourbeinghere.Thankyouforcoming.
[ThepreparedstatementofDr.Gottliebfollows:!

206

jSTATEMENTOFDR.SIDNEYGOTTLIEB
)MynameisSidneyGottliebandIresideinCalifornia.

IamappearingatthishearingasIhaveappearedinothersin
**thepast,voluntarilyandpreparedtoofferwhateverconstructive
testimonymadepossiblebymybackgroundandremembranceof
)thingspast.
^IwouldliketofirstcommentonprojectMKULTRA.
Tothebestofmyrecollection,severalresearch
:iinquiries~whichmuchlatercametobeorganizedunderthe
CryptonymMKULTRAwerebeguninabout1952.Theirpurposewas
itoinvestigatewhetherandhowitwaspossibletomodifyan
individual'sbehaviorbycovert,means.Thecontext,inwhich
f'
Ithisinvestigationwasstartedwasthatoftheheightofthe
ColdWarwiththeKoreanWarjustwindingdown;withtheCIA
1organizingitsresourcestoliberateEasternEuropebypara
i*
militarymeans;andwiththethreatofSovietaggressionvery
\realandtangible,asexemplifiedbytherecentBerlinair
!lift.

|InthejudgmentoftheCIA,therewastangible
IevidencethatboththeSovietsandtheRedChinesemightbe
.,,usingtechniquesofalteringhumanbehaviorwhichwerenot
i'''.'''""'''
.JunderstoodbytheUSAandwhichwouldhaveimplicationsof
nationalsurvivalinthecontextofnationalsecuritycon
{cernsatthattime.Itwasfelttobemandatoryandofthe
zutmosturgencyforourintelligenceorganizationroestablish
whatwaspossibleinthisfieldonaMghprioritybasis.

207

Tomentionjust,afewexamples,therewasaconcernaboutthe
apparentmanipulatedconversionsofAmericansinternedinRed
Chinaforaveryshorttime;therewasalsoaconcernabout
apparentlyirrationalremarksmadebyaseniorAmericandiplomat
returningfromtheSovietUnion;perhapsmostimmediateand
urgentinourmindswastheapparentbuyingupoftheworld
supplyofatthattimelittleknownnewphychogenicmaterial
LSD;lastly,therewasagrowinglibraryofdocumentedinstances

ofroutineusebytheSovietSecurityServicesofcovertly
adminstereddrugs.Thislast,bytheway,hasgrownandbeen
addedto,uptothetimeIlefttheAgency(CIA).
Iaccept,fullresponsibilityformyownrole
intheseactivities,inrelationtowhatmypositioninthe
CIAimplied,astomylevelofresponsibilityasitchanged
overtheyears.Attheoutsetintheperiod19511957,I
washeadofabranchofadivisionchargedwiththeresponsibility
oflookingintothematterswhichIdescribedabove.Iset
upandhandledsomeprojectsmyself,andsupervisedand
administeredotherCIAemployeesmonitoringotherprojects.
AstheyearswentonandIassumedbroaderresponsibilities,
mypersonalinvolvementintheprojectslessened.Thus,my
involvement,wasmostdirectintheperiod19511957.Prom
1957totheendof1960,Iwasnotdirectlyinvolvedatall,
beingassignedtoothermatters.Iwasstationedoverseas
19571959andwasassignedtoanotherunitinheadquarters
intheperiod1959totheendof1960.Latein1960,

i
virJ'

208

3
IreturnedtoTSDtobecomeChiefoftheResearchandDevelop
mentcomponent;in1962,IbecameDeputyChiefofTSD;and

from1966to1973,IwasChiefofTSD.IretiredfromtheCIA
onJune30,1973.Iwanttostress,however,thatapolicy
reviewofprojectMKULTRAandalloftheprojectsIwascon
nectedwithtookplaceatleastonceayearduringMKULTRA
activeperiod,whichIrememberas19521965.Inaddition,
.aseachprojectwasfunded,approvalinwritingatleasttwo
levelsaboveminewererequiredinallresearchanddevelop
mentactivities.
ProjectnameslikeArtichokeandBluebirdhavebeen
mentionedinthepress,associatedwithmyname.Myremembrance
isthatprojectArtichokewasmanagedbytheOfficeofSecurity
andthatIhadnodirectorindirectresonsibilityforit,
althoughIbecameawareofitsexistenceandgeneralnature
overtheyears.ProjectBluebird,asIrememberit,wasalso
anOfficeofSecurityconcept,possiblyneveractuallyrealized,
*hichlaterevolvedintoaTSDsponsoredactivitylooking
intobrainwashing,andultimatelyincludedtheSocietyfor
theInvestigationofHumanEcology.
Oneunusualprojectstartedin1952andcontinued
untilabout1965wasanarrangementoriginallysetupbyse
withtheBureauofNarcotics.Inthisregard,Ihavepre
viouslyfurnishedmyrecollectionsofthismatterduringmy

209

4
40oddhoursoftestimonytotheSenateSelectCommitteeon
Intelligence,butIamgladtodiscussthesemattersagain
**withthisCommittee.TheoriginofthisBureauofNarcotics

activityrestedinmybecomingawarethroughreadingOSS
researchfilesofaninvestigationintothebehavioralterating
possibilitiesofTetrohydrocanniabinol,asyntheticmaterial
relatedtothenaturallyactiveconstituentofmarijuana.
IwasabletocontactanofficeroftheBureauofNarcotics
whohadparticipatedfirsthandintheOSSinvestigations.
Withhim,Imadeanarrangement,fundedbytheCIA,whereby
hewouldcovertlyadministerchemicalmaterialstounwitting
people.TheBureauofNarcotics,throughthisindividual,
hadtheirowninterestindeterminingwhetherchemicalmaterials
couldbeusedtoelicitorvalidateinformationobtainedfrom
druginformants.ThearrangementwouldbenefittheCIA's
programinthatinformationwouldbeobtained,unobtainable
inanyotherway,ontheeffectsofthesematerialsusedin
situationscloselyresemblingthosein.actualoperations.
Ihavenopersonalawarenessofspecificindividualstowhom
thesematerialswereadministered.Tothebestofmyknowledge
andremembrance,thematerialsadministeredinthegreatmajority
ofcasesunderthe*BureauofNarcoticsprojectwereLSDand
2Meretran.Idonothavedetailedinformationontheexact
numberofindividualsinvolved,buttheimpressionIhaveis
thatthenumberinvolvedwasbetween20andSOindividuals
overtheyearsoftheproject.Iwouldliketoaddthatthe

210

5
BureauofNarcoticsprojectwastheonlyoneofitskindin
thesenseoftryingtogainurgentlyneededinformationin
theadministrationofmaterialsinanoperationalcontext.
Althoughithasdrawnconsiderableattentioninthenews
media,becauseofitsunusualnature,itwasaverysmall
partofanoverallprogramwhichtookplaceinmoreconventional
project,inthemorenormalsettingofunversitiesandlabor
atories,asbornoutbytherecordsshowntomebythe
Committeestaff.ThisCommitteemightbeinterestedtoknow
thatthetotalamountofmoneyspentoneverythingrelated
toMKULTRAwaslimitedto10%ofthetotalresearchdoneby
T5D.Tomyremembrance,attheheightofthespendingonMKULTRA
relatedactivities,itneverevenreachedthispercentage.
Thegreatbulkoftheresearchdoneunderthegeneral
umbrellaofProjectMKULTRAtookplaceinacademicandother
researchsettings.Theseprojectsalmostalwaysrepresented
workthattheindividualinvestigatorswouldhavebeendoing
inanycase.TheAgency'srolewastoprovidethefundsand,
inmanycases,provideaccesstotheinvestigatorifspecific
interpretationofhisresultsintermsofourinterestswere

needed.Tomyrecollection,ineverycase,theresultsof
therelatedresearchwerepublished.
Thedegreeofwittingnessoftheprincipalinvesti
gatorsontheseprojectsvarieddependingonwhetherwejudged
hisknowledgeofourspecificintereststobenecessaryin
providingusefulresultstous.Thus,manyprojectswere

211

establishedinwhichtheprincipalinvestigatorwasfully
knowledgeableofwhowewereandexactlywhatourinterests
intheresearchwere.Othersweresimplyprovidedfunds
throughacovertorganizationandhadnoideaofultimate
CIAsponsorship.
Thedegreetowhichindividualsothersthanthe
principalinvestigatorneededtobewittingoftheAgency's
connectiontotheresearchvaried.Itwasgenerallyleftto
theprincipalinvestigatortoadviseusastowhetheranyone
elseineitherhisresearchteamorintheadministrativepart
oftheuniversityorresearchorganizationneededtobemade
wittingtotheAgency'srelationship.Tothebestofmy
remembrance,althoughforgeneralsecurityreasonswewere
eagertokeepthiskindofinformationtoaminimum,wewent
alongwiththeprincipalinvestigator'sdesiresandcleared
andbriefedwhomeverhefeltwasnecessary.
Thegeneralsubjectofwhywefeltitnecessaryto
usefundingmechanismsliketheSocietyfortheInvestigation
ofHumanEcologyortheGeschickterFundforMedicalResearch
needssomecomment.Thisinvolvesthemoregeneralquestion

ofwhywefeltallofthisresearchneededtobekeptsecret
insofarasAgencysponsorshipwasconcerned.Thereason,however
itmayseemwiththebenefitofhindsight,wasthatwefeltany
potentialenemiesofthiscountrywouldbegreatlybenefitted

"212I
I
7|
I
intheirownpossiblefutureaggressiveactsagainsttheUSA<v
iftheywereforwarnedastowhatthenatureandprogressof:?
f'%
fc&ourresearchinthisfieldwas.ft
I
Thelargestoverallpicturethatcanbegivenofthis|
groupofacademicandotherformalresearchundertakingsisthat|
theywereanattempttoharnesstheacademicandresearchcommunityf
oftheUnitedStatestoprovidebadlyneededanswerstosome|
pressingnationalsecurityproblems,intheshortestpossible$
time,withoutalertingpotentialenemiestotheUnitedStatesI

Government'sinterest,inthesematters.'}
Inallcases,researchresultswerepublishedthrough
thenormalovertchannelsforpublicationofmedicalandj
physiologicalresearch.Iwouldliketoremindthemembersf
oftheCommitteethatat.thispointinhistorytheamount,of
availablereliabledataonLSDandsimilarmaterialswas|
essentiallynil.|
Iunderstandfromreadingnewspaperaccountsthat,one1
oftheprincipalinterestsofthisCommitteeinthiskindof
researchisthe.degreeofprotectionthatwasaffordsdtothe|
subjectsusedinthoseexperimentswherehumansubjectswereI
'1
used.AsfarastheBureauofNarcoticsprojectisconcerned,my|
impressionwastherewasnoadvanceknowledgeorprotectionofthe1
1
individualsconcerned.TheonlycommentIwouldliketomakeV|
^onthisisthat,harshasit.mayseeminretrospect,itwasI
feltthatinanissuewherenationalsurvivalmightbeconcerned,*'\
I

suchaprocedureandsuchariskwasareasonableonetotake.1

213

8
IwouldlikeagaintoremindtheCommitteethat,asfaras
thoseofuswhoparticipatedinthisworkwereconcerned,
to.thiscountrywasinvolvedinarealcovertwarinthesense
thatthecoldwarspilledoverintointelligenceactivities.
Insofarasprotectionofindividualsinthebulk
J
ofthiswork,asrepresentatedbyformalresearchprojects,
isconcerned,thematterofinformedconsentandprotection
%..tothevolunteersparticipatingwaslefttoeachinvestigator
accordingtothestandardsthateitherheorhisinstitution
feltwereappropriatetothesituation.Ourgeneralfeeling
wasthatifwechosereputableandresponsibleinvestigators,
appropriatestandardsinthisareawouldbeused.Ithink,

ingeneral,theproceduresactuallyusedintheseexperiments
wererepresentativeofwhatwasconsideredtobeadequate
safeguardsatthetime.
Acommentshouldbemadeonthekindofinterest
thattheAgencyhadinthesemattersandhowitmayhave
changedovertheyears.Theoriginalimpetusforthiswork
asmentionedabovewastheconcernaboutaggressiveuseof
behavioralteringtechniquesagainstthiscountrybyits
enemies.Althoughthisremainedacontinuingandprobably
primaryfocusinthehistoryoftheseprojects,theAgency

214

9
didbecomeinterestedinthepotentialuseofbehavior
modificationtechniquesinunforeseencircumstancesthat
mightoccurinthefuture.
It.isundoubtedlytruethatsomeoftheseresearch
activitieswerecontinuedintothemiddleorlate1960's
wheninlookingbackwardnowtherealpossibilityoftheir
successfulandeffectiveuseeitheragainstusorbyuswas
verylow.infact,IrememberwritingareportwhenIwas
ondetachedassignmentwithanotherunitintheclandestine
servicesinabout1961whichconcludedthatthepotential
effectivenessofthesetechniquesandtheinclinationof
Americanintelligenceofficerstousethemwaslimited.The
onlyreasonsIcanprovidenowforthecontinuanceofasmall
numberoftheseactivitieswasthatwefeltweneededtobe
morecertainthanwewereofthesenegativeresultsandalso
thatwefeltaneedtomaintaincontactwithindividuals
knowledgeableinthesefieldstokeepourselvesabreastof
whatwashappening.
Inconclusion,Iwouldliketocommentonthree
thingswhichtroublemeverymuchaboutthesituationIfind
myselfin.

First,therehavebeenmanyreferencesinthe
presstoattemptsbymetoavoidtestifying.Theseallega
tionsarewithoutanybasisinfact,eitherintermsof

215

10
"hiding"ormakingmyselfunavailabletocongressionalcommittees.
InthecaseofmytestimonybeforetheChurchCommitteein
1975,IvoluntarilyandimmediatelyreturnedfromIndiaas
soonasIwasmadeawareattheMissionaryHospital,where
Iwasperformingvoluntaryservices,thatImightbeneeded.
Ihavebeenavailableforalllegitimateinquiriesatall
timesthroughmycounsel.
Second,IfeelvictimizedandIamappalledatthe
CIA'spolicy,whereinsomeoneorsomegroupselectivelypin

pointsmynamebyfailingtodeleteitfromdocumentsre
leasedundertheFreedomofInformationActwithout
anypermissionfromme.Thatis,mynameisselectivelyleft
onreleaseddocumentswhereallormostothersaredeleted.
Ihaveagreatconcernforpast,presentandfutureemployees
oftheAgencyinvolvedinsensitive,difficult,andpotentially
misunderstoodwork,asthispolicyofselectivedisclosure
ofindividualsnamesgetsappliedtothem.Iamsincerely
concernedthattheCIA'sabilitytorecruitclandestineassets
inthefuturecouldbeseverelyimpaired.
Thirdly,myconcernisforthereputationsofthemany
individualsnotemployeesoftheAgency,inacademicandpro
fessionallifewho,forthemostpartioticandconstructive

'')

M
^

216

n
ofreasons,andguaranteedbothbymyselfandtheAgencyof
confidentialityandnondisclosure,chosetoassisttheAgency
initsresearcheffortsoverthepastyears.Bynow,the
associationinthenewsmediaofanynameintheacademic
orprofessionalworkwithCIAbringsimmediateandautomatic
negativeconnatations,andirreparablydamagestheirreputa
tions.Withregardtomytestimony,IhopethisCommitteewill
understandmyreluctance,exceptwhenabsolutelyessential,
tomentionothernames.Iamdesirousandwillingtoshareany
knowledgeofmattersofinteresttotheCommitteethatIhave
inmymemorybut,whatevertheCIA'spoliciesmaybeonthis
matter,Ifeelitisapointofpersonalresponsibilityto
honorthecommitmentofconfidentialitythatIfeeltowards
theseindividualsandnottobeapartytofurtherdamage
theirreputations.
Insummary,IwouldlikethisCommitteetoknowthat
Iconsideredallthisworkatthetimeitwasdoneandin
thecontextofcircumstancesthatwereextantinthatperiod
tobeextremelyunpleasant,extremelydifficult,extremely

sensitive,butaboveall,tobeextremelyurgent,andimportant.
Irealizethatit.isdifficulttoreconstructthosetimes
andthatatmospheretodayinthisroom.
AnotherthoughtthatIwouldliketoleaveyouwith
isthatshouldthecourseofrecenthistoryhavebeenslightly
differentfromwhatitwas,Icaneasilyimagineacongressional

217

12
committeebeingextremelycriticaloftheAgencyfornothaving
doneinvestigationsofthisnature.
Inanyevent,itismysimplewisetobeashelpful
aspossibletothisCommitteeinobtainingitsappropriate
legislativegoals,andIampreparedtobeashelpfulandforth
comingaspossibleintheareasinwhichyouareinterested.

218
SenatorSchweiker.Wewillcontinuewithanotherwitness,butwe
willrecessfirstandgobackintothefullcommitteehearingroomfor
anopensession.

Thankyouverymuch.
[Shortrecess.]
[Themeetingreconvenedinthefullcommitteehearingroom.]
SenatorSchweiker.Atthistimewewillcallasthehealthsub
&committee'snextwitnessMr.PeterC.Bensinger,theAdministrator
oftheiDrugEnforcementAdministration.
Mr.Bensinger,wouldyouliketomakeafewgeneralremarksfirst?
DoyouhaveapreparedstatementtopresentbeforeIaskyouafew
questions?
STATEMENTOFPETEBC.BENSnTCffiB,ADMOTSTBATOR,DBTJG
ENFORCEMENTADMINISTEATION,ACCOMTANTEDBYJOSEPH
XREUGER,ACTINGCHIEFINSPECTOR,DRUGENFORCEMENT
ADMINISTRATION
Mr.Bensinger.Thankyou,SenatorSchweiker.
Iwouldliketo,ifImight,alsointroduceJoeKrueger,ActingChief
InspectorforDrugEnforcementAdministration.
IhavebeenAdministratorforDEAsinceJanuary23,1976.I
mightaddtherewasnoindicationatthetimeIarrivedattheDrug
EnforcementAdministrationthatanyformernarcoticsagentofa
formerpredecessoragencyofwhichtherehavebeenmany,hadbeen
engagedincooperationwiththeCIAoranyoneelseinexperimelation
withdrugsorunwillingsubjects.
Needlesstosay,Iwasshockedandappalledthatsuchactivitydid
takeplace,andIcanconceiveofnocircumstancesunderwhichsuch
activitycouldbejustified.
UpondeterminingthataformerofficialwasinvolvedfromtheFed

eralBureauofNarcoticsinthisactivity,IdiddirectDEA'sOfficeof
InternalSecuritytoconductwithhighestpriorityathoroughinves
tigationtodeterminethenatureandscopeofdrugtestingactivities,
cooperativerelationshipsbetweenpredecessoragenciesandindividuals
andtheCIA.
TheOfficeofInternalSecurityofDEAhasdeterminedwithsworn
andwrittenstatementsfromeverynationalandregionalprogram
managerthatwearenotprovidingfacilities,drugs,orfunds,for
unwillingtestingonhumanstotheCIAoranyoneelse.
KWehaveworkedcloselywiththestaffofthiscommittee.
Iwouldbehappytoansweranyquestions,Senator.
SenatorSchweiker.Ithinkyouarecertainlycorrect.
Youhaveexhibitedaverypositiveapproachandworkedvery
cooperativelyandverycloselywiththesubcommittee.
SoIunderstandyouranswertomybasicquestion,whichIdidn't
evenhavetoask,isyouwerenotonlysurprisedbutshockedto
learnaboutyouragency'sformerinvolvementwithCIAdrugtesting,
andyouarealreadytakingstepstoremedyitandpreventfuture
abusesbyinstitutingyourowninvestigation.Isthatessentially
correct?
Mr.Bensinger.Thatiscorrect,SenatorSchweiker,exceptthatthe
detailsthatwehave,bothfromcommitteestaffandwhateverrecords
areavailbletousfromtheCIAindicatethatthistypeofcooperative

relationshipinwhichfacilities,safehouses,wereoperatedinconjunc
tionbetweenFBNandCIAdidterminateinJune1965.
SenatorSchweiker.Therelationshipapparentlyterminatedin
June1965,andyouwereapprisedofitsexistencewhen,roughly?
Mr.Bensinger.IwasapprisedofitinSeptemberofthisyear
thatthisprevious12yearsagoactivitydidtakeplace.
SenatorSchweiker.Septemberofthisyear?
Mr.Bensinger.1977.
SenatorSchweiker.Anditterminatedin1965,about12yearsago.
Youviewthesortofcooperativerelationshiplaidoutinthesehearings
asgoingagainstthebasicdrugenforcementpurposesofyouragency?
Mr.Bensinger.Thatiscorrect.
SenatorSchweiker.Igatheryouaretakingeveryprecaution
andsafeguardtoassurethatrelationshipslikethisorprogramslike
thisdonothappenwhileyouareAdministrator?
Mr.Bensinger;Absolutely^
SenatorSchweiker.Weappreciateyourcomingasawitness
today,andwethar_kyouforyourpatienceinwaitinguntilwecom
pletedourquestioningoftheotherwitnesses.
Itisrefreshingtoseeapositive,constructiveattitudeonthepart
ofaFederalagencythatwantstohelpandcooperatewithusand
sharesthesameobjectivesaswedoonthiscommitteewithregard
tohumanexperimentation.
Thankyouverymuchforcoiningheretoday.

Mr.Bensinger.Thankyou.
SenatorSchweiker.Thankyou.Thesubcommitteewillnow
standadjourned.
[Whereupon,at12:11p.m.,thesubcommitteewasadjourned,
subjecttothecalloftheChair.]
O