Jazzblog Archives: Larry Grenadier and Jeff Ballard Masterclass - Ottawa Citizen

Jazzblog archives: Larry Grenadier and Jeff Ballard masterclass | Ottawa Citizen
06/01/17, 02:24
Jazzblog archives: Larry

Grenadier and Je Ballard
masterclass
P E T E R H U M , O T T AWA C I T I Z E N
More from Peter Hum, Ottawa Citizen (HTTP://OTTAWACITIZEN.COM/AUTHOR/PETERHUM88)
Published on: June 3, 2014 | Last Updated: June 3, 2014 9:55 AM EST
Since drummer Jeff Ballard is bringing his trio to

this years TD Ottawa International Jazz Festival,
Im reprinting the blog post below from 2010 to
give you a window into his perspective on making
music. PH
***
Bassist Larry Grenadier and drummer Jeff Ballard have a lot to say and
share, even when their instruments are taken from them. The day after
a 2010 concert with Brad Mehldau at Kingstons Grand Theatre,
Grenadier and Ballard gave masterclasses to students at the Crane
School of Music at the State University of Potsdam.
Thanks to Crane School faculty member (and Ottawa bassist) John
Geggie, who shared his videos of the masterclasses with me so that I
could transcribe some of them (and embed a few complementary
videos).
Here are excerpts from the classes, beginning with some of the
comments Ballard and Grenadier made in response to a student
ensembles performance:
On achieving a group feel and hearing the big

http://ottawacitizen.com/entertainment/jazzblog/jazzblog-archives-words-of-wisdom-from-larry-grenadier-and-jeff-ballard
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picture:
Ballard: I like it when groups play as an ensemble all the time. Its not
just that you have a carpet for the soloist to play on top of. Everyones
participating to make the musical moment happen. Between the
drums and the piano, when youre playing theres a real close
connection that you guys have. Youre both comping, complimenting,
accompanying, the other person, but youre doing it together.
If the drums, for instance, start to finish a musical phrase, you (the
piano player) should be tuning into how thats manifesting, and joining
in or not. To be aware that youre working together youre always
working together. Not that you want to be mimicking. But as a
listener, what I really dig when I go and see music, is ensemble playing
on every level
A solo is a group effort too. Its kind of a misnomer a good solo
happens because of the whole group.
Grenadier: Thats why I always talk about technique For me,
technique is getting to play what you can physically play what you want
to play Its not about chops, so that youre not hung up with getting
around your instrument If youre dealing with that, your ears close
down you cant make music.
Id rather hear a bunch of people play who have no technique, actually
as far as chops go, but are super listeners. You have to just remember
that this is what its about.
Ballard: One thing thats very helpful A really good thing to do which
will help is to always try to have a big overview of whats going on. It will
start to talk to you a little bit more when you look at it that way Youre
looking so far ahead youll make decisions in a good way, instead of
this moment here, this moment here.
Grenadier: Its hard with jazz, in a way, because youre so caught up in
the moment. Certain pop musicians have a better feeling for sensing
the structure of a whole tune, seeing a whole tune and how to balance
out a whole tune whereas jazz musicians are always trying to being
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super-creative, play something different all the time. Especially as a

rhythm section player, we need to have that overview that Jeff talked
about. Its super-important..
Ballard: Not preconceived, theres some danger in there.
Preconception can creep in Thats kind of a no-no
On leaving space:
Ballard: It seems like the lines are long in the end, a bit (like) you just
finished, but youre not satisfied with what you did Just stop and
see what it is, what you have just played. Its very hard to do. Its a
common thing. I play too much for my taste. I wish I could take stuff
out.
Larry Grenadier at the Brad Mehldau Trios soundcheck before its 2008 Ottawa
International Jazz Festival concert.
A S H L E Y F R AS E R / P O S T M E D I A
Grenadier: Let the space happen, then you can tell what the line was
you hear how it sits, what its done to everybody else Give them a
chance too The idea of space on a tune like that thats fast, its a
little harder to think about. Something that we play with a lot with the
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06/01/17, 02:24
different bands that we play in is using the air, and playing the space.
You dont have to always be playing. Let that air, let that space be part
of the music. The more confidence you have in your internal time and
the form and the harmony, then youre more confidence in letting it be.
Same thing with the beat. The beat can get more obscure, as long as
youre confident with the internal beat. [Said to the drummer PH]
Youre kind of landing a lot on one Musically, you could be a little
more obscure with the time sometimes. It doesnt have to be so
obvious.
Ballard: Preconception: You start playing two and four on the high hat.
Jazz is not a pattern. Its the last thing that it is Its not two and four
necessarily. Two and four is a character inside there. Sometimes its
more pronounced. Other times its less pronounced.
Grenadier: Thats kind of a misconception of jazz. One TWO three
FOUR. If you play like that, it sounds corny. It doesnt sound good, it
sounds heavy.
Ballard: Its like jazz under glass, groove under glass. Its a living
thing. If youre all connected, it will tell you when it needs more
emphasis, Try not to give it all the emphasis all the time.
On going beyond genre and style:

Grenadier: I think about this a lot. A lot of times, in a school that has a
classical department and a jazz department, for some strange reason,
they dont interact, typically. It just boggles my mind why that
continues to be the caseso much of what we talk about is specific to
jazz, but its really about music, and you know, we listen to all different
types of music all the time.
I think that even when were playing a tune like this [Bud Powells The
Fruit was played at the masterclass PH], a really bebop style of tune,
this other stuff that weve listened to and thought a lot about comes
into play. The way that a chamber group plays together is so hip You
know? Or the way that a rock band plays together. Or the way that you
know, fans of great R n B music of the 60s and 70s they figured out
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06/01/17, 02:24
how to balance their sound, how to balance their rhythm sections, how
to use space.
So as a teacher, I always think its kind of important to break down
what has been set up by institutions putting walls up. Music is music.
Nowadays with the iPod shuffle generation, were getting to a place
where everybodys open to everything, which is great..
Ballard: Everything I do has got a lot of stuff to it a lot of South
American music, reggae, its got hip hop music, its got swing its
definitely cross-genre if you think of it that way.
On finding inspiration on the bandstand:

Ballard: When we were playing, when guys solo its really great when
you take what youve just been given and you make something out of it.
Its a really cool thing. You draw lines, you make connections you get
so much food for thought.
Grenadier: What do you do when youre not inspired for whatever
reason? Listen to whats going on its a simple solution to a difficult
problem Open up your ears Sometimes if I just look at the player
playing, that helps.
Grenadier on why he took up bass:

Grenadier: My dad played trumpet and my older brother trumpet,
but there was too much trumpet in the house A lot of people I know
started on trumpet a lot of bass players. For me, theres something
similar in the articulation. I feel a kinship with that instrument, for
sure The other thing is that theyre both super-physical instruments
the two instruments you cannot take a break from. With bass, you
know, if I take a week off I feel like Im 10 years old again.
About their listening preferences with respect to

contemporary jazz:
Ballard: [kiddingly] Nobody.
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06/01/17, 02:24
Grenadier: Its kind of interesting now, because both of us have

moved out of the city, so were not in the midst of it all anymore. Were
a little bit removed. Sometimes I use my students as a ways to see
whats happening, whos playing. to keep abreast.
Ballard: Friends will give me stuff, like Jason Lindner, the piano player. I
kind of joked when I said no one. I dont listen to a lot of A guy I
grew up with, Donny McCaslin. Really great. Ive only heard a little bit of
his latest stuff. Its funny. I just dont gravitate to it. Im looking for old
masters. Im worried about my own. Usually If I listen, its to really get
in, its not just for enjoyment. Im kind of always working when Im
listening.
Grenadier: Cause were doing it all the time, you know?
On whats going on rhythmically in the Brad

Mehldau Trios arrangement of Wonderwall:
Ballard: If we tell you, youll have to be killed.
Grenadier: I think its, Im playing in 15. its minus a beat, but they
stay in four, but eventually we hook up. Its a long time stay focused,
and play against it Theyre playing in four and Im not, eventually,
theres a common 1. I played loose if you write it out, it eventually
lines up
On playing in the studio:

Grenadier: Its great to record yourselves, but also to get as much
time in the studio.. thats a whole different animal theres just so
many different things involved, the creativity that you need in a sterile
environment getting used to hearing different sounds. playing with
headphones. Gary Burton told me a useful thing: you have to magnify
dynamics. What you perceive as pianissimo is mezzoforte you have
really emphasize dynamics in the studio. Im really a fan of first takes.
After the first take, you always have the memory, the residue, of the
first take. And youre trying to recreate aspects of it. Which is not
necessarily a negative thing.
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06/01/17, 02:24
Ballard: If youre worried about it, it is.

Grenadier: When everybodys hearing the music for the first time,
and that gets to tape, the listener is hearing it like its played and its
really magical.
Ballard: So play it like you mean it, every time.
On playing dierently or not with dierent

people:
Ballard: The approach is the same, in the general sense. You play with
huge ears But a big band, would need something different from a
small band. I would use different cymbals for different kinds of music,
too, different sticks For instance, I would play with one tenor player,
and he plays with more space and less fire in that classic throwdown
sense, and then with another guy who is full-on, throwdown, all the
musics like that. Id have to bring out another personality, in a sense.
But basically bottom line, you listen hard and I like to do less rather
than more I like certain ways of cutting up thingsthat will stay the
same..
On rehearsing, and the lack theoreof, with

Mehldau:
Grenadier: Ive been playing with Brad for 15 years, I think I can count
definitely on two hands the number of times weve rehearsed maybe
one hand. We dont rehearse because we play so much, were able to
rehearse on the gig or at the soundcheck, If theres something difficult,
yeah, well rehearse it. At the very beginning of playing together, we had
some arrangements that were really specific and tricky. Not so much
anymore. Overall, its a bit less arranged, we just kind of play tunes,
because we can do everything that we got to in the arrangements
without an arrangement. We make it as we go along its kind of the
evolution of the band too.
Ballard: Ive had one rehearsal. Ive been in it for five years.
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06/01/17, 02:24
Grenadier: Thats only because were playing so much. If we didnt

have that luxury, wed probably rehearse.
Ballard: So new tune comes in. Soundcheck. We run it. You can do
this, do this maybe, or nothing was said . It works, he likes it or he
doesnt. We try it that night.
On Mehldau as a leader:
Ballard: Definitely Brad is the leader. Hes going to dictate how it
wants to go. We have tons of influence and input. And 90 per cent of
the time whatever you want, go ahead.
[He relates an anecdote about Mehldau taking a medium blues in a
different direction during a performance PH] Hes often saying how
its great how we have this rooted thing, this groove
[Did someone say groove? Here are Grenadier, Ballard and Mehldau
basking in the groove on No Moon At All PH]
Flash
But this night, hes not feeling that. He doesnt want this straightahead
thing going on Its not preconceived He was really playing on the
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fringe, trying to bust it out I was playing a little bit with it, but not
really going all the way All of sudden, hes laying out way too much
hes telling me something, telling us something. I started playing more
in that abstract wayand he entered some more. The whole damn tune
was pretty much thatwhich was rarely done
Grenadier: For every tune every moment in a way theres got be
someone saying, follow me for this moment. Otherwise its too floaty.
[Grenadier went on to describe FLY, his co-op trio with Ballard and
saxophonist Mark Turner, as the most democratic band that hes been
in. Heres an example of FLY in action, playing that Bud Powell tune,
The Fruit PH]
Flash
On women in jazz:
Ballard: One thing Id like to say to all the gentlemen here women
playing this music need extra respect. I dont think music I dont
think they get it enoughI think theyre getting it more, Its a mans
world, this thing, for sure. be kind to those peopleTheyre trying just
as heard as we are, in fact, harder, because theyve got a huge wall in
front of them I always ask us to remember that. Dont blow them off,
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its really not right.

Grenadier: It can only help the music, that feminine side.
Ballard: Its really hard for a woman in this music, getting hit on all the
time. You want to play in my band. You sound great its twisted.
Imagine, if you can. Youre asked to play, because youre pretty or
youre a good looking trumpeter.
On two musical paths:

Grenadier: The other thing thing to keep in mind, Ive noticed this
watching other people develop Everybodys got a different idea of
what they want to do. some people come to New York or wherever.
They want to play with a lot of different people That was kind of my
goal. To be versatile enough to play in a lot of different musical
situations. Friends of mind never had that goal they wanted to write
music, wanted to play it, and thats about it. Then they followed that
path. So we all follow our own path. You have to know what youre
following.
For me, it was to be prepared For the other path, it would be, have a
really strong identity, be really assured of what you want to express.
They can co-exist for sure. But Ive also seen very distinct ways of
doing it. That also determines the way you make money. Its much
easier as a bass player to be a versatile guy that to go out and be a
bass leader.
On going to New York or a big jazz city:

Grenadier: I think its important to go to a big city at some point, but
whether one stays in it or not is less and less important. Theres
something to be learned from living in New York. Theres no energy like
it its very related to jazz musicthe energy, the noise, everything is
part of that I think its great to experience that The other side,
traveling around, you see great, great musicians everywhere. Europe,
Japan, Australia, Canada, everywhere.
Ballard: I think that I notice a difference. People who have gone
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through the grind I hear it differently It seems like going through

that experience is huge and super-great. What I hear, I like You dont
have to stay
On the future of jazz as an art and a business:

Ballard: Theres always going to be jazz. Always. Jazz is dead. Bull.
Its always going to survive. Its not going to be a money maker, but its
always going to survive.
Grenadier: Business-wise The record labels thing has changed
mini-labels have risen up.. It takes a lot less money to make a record
Jazz is kind of going to get off easy. Jazz has always been kind of a selfmade vibe In jazz, the money is made off of playing gigs, not selling
records except if youre selling five million records. But other than
that, people are just trying to make good gigs
On playing with the creators of the music:

Grenadier: I grew up, I got to play with a lot of people who were older
than me, really developed. People were touring without rhythm
sections theyre less bands that are apprenticeships Were kind of
the last generation where it was like you could go to music school or
you could easily not It wasnt really a big deal if you didnt.
Ballard: One thing that will be interesting to see, I dont know what its
going to be, as far as the music itself, you guys have lost the
opportunity to play with the guys who have invented this stuff. So if
youre playing with us, were an echo away, a generation after, you
know? Whats going to happen to swing, in a way? Seeing it being
played by Art Blakey, seeing it played by Ed Blackwell, seeing Ray
Brown play, seeing Max Roach play Weve had that, and not on
YouTube. Being at the gig, playing with Stan Getz, playing with Ray
Charles playing with Dizzy Gillespie, playing with Lou Donaldson,
playing with Buddy Montgomery, Wes Montgomerys brother. Thats
changed. These guys have gone.
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Jazzblog Archives: Larry Grenadier and Jeff Ballard Masterclass - Ottawa Citizen

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Jazzblog archives: Larry Grenadier and Jeff Ballard masterclass | Ottawa Citizen

Jazzblog archives: Larry

Since drummer Jeff Ballard is bringing his trio to

On achieving a group feel and hearing the big

super-creative, play something different all the time. Especially as a

On going beyond genre and style:

On finding inspiration on the bandstand:

Grenadier on why he took up bass:

About their listening preferences with respect to

Grenadier: Its kind of interesting now, because both of us have

On whats going on rhythmically in the Brad

On playing in the studio:

Ballard: If youre worried about it, it is.

On playing dierently or not with dierent

On rehearsing, and the lack theoreof, with

Grenadier: Thats only because were playing so much. If we didnt

its really not right.

On two musical paths:

On going to New York or a big jazz city:

through the grind I hear it differently It seems like going through

On the future of jazz as an art and a business:

On playing with the creators of the music:

Facebook Comments Plugin

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