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Rennlist Discussion Forums 924/944/951/968 Model Specific Forums 944 Turbo and Turbo-S
Forum HEADGASKET dissertation...

Author

Danno
Guru

Topic: HEADGASKET dissertation...

posted 09-24-2002 05:59

Rennlist Member

User # 1947

Ok, after seeing several concerns posted about headgaskets:


"The jist was that the widefire was NOT meant to be used in conjunction with the o-ring procedure. A
copper gasket was recomended. "
"When we rebuilt the head on my 951 this summer, we did not use a wide fire head gasket. Do you feel
that I am going to be taking a significant risk by installing the kit knowing this?"
I figured I'd investigate this phenomenon a little closer. But first, let's compare the differences
between the standard headgasket and the wide fire-ring model:

As you can see, the wide fire-ring gasket's compression-ring is really only wider on the bottom where
it rests on the top of the cylinders. The part on top that's against the head is pretty much the exact
same width. Additionally, the really important part, the surface that's facing the combustion chamber,
is EXACTLY the same 0.1mm thick (or thin) wall of steel.
Having blown up 2.5 headgaskets in the last TWO years alone, I had enough wasted evidence laying
around to examine. So I pulled my three headgasket trophies off the wall and took a closer look at
them. The following is my forensic analysis of the situation...
Here's photos of my first headgasket failure; the original 15-year old standard headgasket. Also, I
fried my second headgasket (a wide fire-ring) at the Open Track Challenge earlier this year:

Now from analyzing the failure points and tearing apart the remains, I find there's a dramatic
difference in the way these two headgaskets are constructed. The original/standard headgasket uses
a rolled & looped compression-ring like what you find used on the crossover pipe flanges and the
turbo. The wide fire-ring headgasket on the other hand, has a simple open-ended U-shaped wrap:

We actually need to go into WHY a headgasket fails in the first place. Contrary to what you may think,
it's not combustion-pressure that 'blows' out a headgasket, but rather it is 'burned' from the intense
heat of detonation resulting from too-lean of an air-fuel mixture. If you refer back to the close-up
photos of my second headgaket failure, only one of the compression-rings was pushed aside, but all
of them were destroyed by being burned. It may just happened coincidentally that the #4
compression-ring was heated up so much, that it melted and was then pushed aside by combustion
pressure.
Which brings up an interesting comparison of failure rates and life-expectancy. My wide fire-ring
headgasket lasted roughly a year-and-a-half, yet my original headgasket lasted 15-years!!!. I've
also known a tuner or two who have blown up several wide fire-ring headgaskets just weeks apart! If
you refer to the cross-sectional diagram above, the compression-ring of the standard headgasket
completely forms a loop with the ends meeting. This gives it a second barrier to combustion once the
first one has been burned through.
So what can we do? One of the first suggestions is to O-ring the head, and/or the block. Here's a

comparison of the two methods:

The grooves are typically cut such that the O-ring only protrudes about 0.1-0.2mm above the surface
of the head. This then compresses the compression ring somewhat. Cutting a groove opposite the
O-ring provides for a second gripping junction. HOWEVER... this only serves to stake and pin the
compression ring into place. IT DOES NOTHING to combat the real cause of failure to begin with; the
intense heat from detonation due to lean air-fuel ratios. In which case, it doesn't really matter
whether there's an O-ring pinching the middle of the compression-ring at all, once the 0.1mm-thick
layer facing the combustion chamber is burnt through, that's it!. Again, refer to the close-up photos.
O-ringing may have helped keep one compression-ring in place, but most likely the
combustion-gasses would've burnt through the fibre center of the gasket anyway even if the top and
bottom surfaces of the compression-ring was staked in place. And O-ringing wouldn't have done
anything for the other three cylinders that had their compression-rings burnt, yet they stayed in place.
That's why high-end tuners like Garrity or Scott Gomes don't even bother with O-ringing a headgasket
at all, they just focus their attention on gettting a flat and safe air-fuel ratio and the headgasket will
be fine.
Well, what about cooper heagaskets? I believe they solve a completely different problem that what we
face. They are for the extreme cases of turbocharging where combustion pressure can and does blow
out a headgasket. This occurs in dragsters and high-boost import cars like SupraTTs running 35-45psi
of boost. Yes, that's right, 35-45psi of boost. Or the mid-'80s Formulae-1 Turbo-Monsters with
50-55psi of boost even. In these cases, a copper headgasket makes sense.
But putting one on 951 that blew a standard or wide fire-ring headgasket is just masking the real
problem and moves the failure to the next weakest link, like your pistons or valves or con-rods.
Failure of those components will DEFINITELY be more catastrophic and costly to repair. So if you've
blown a headgasket, definitely put your car on the dyno after you've replaced your headgasket and
get an air-fuel ratio plot. Make sure it doesn't have a super-rich mid-range that gets dangerously lean
in the high-end. Like these popular chips:
AutoThority Stg.2 (Dan Worley's)
AutoThority Stg.2 (Adrial's)
EuroProducts (look at the 'begin AFR' light-blue line)
After examining the after-the-fact data provided by others, I've come to the conclusion that my wide
fire-ring headgasket failure was due to an overly-lean high-RPM mixture caused by the AutoThority
Stg.2 chips I had @ 15psi. While I hadn't dyno-tested the car, I'm going to assume the my air-fuel
ratio looked similar to Dan Worley's and Adrial's above. Combined with 115 degrees-F Nevada desert
heat and an idiotic co-driver, this failure was to be expected. Famous quote:
"The car would zip right up to 7000rpm coming out of the corners and there wasn't anything I could do about it!"

Posts: 4076 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Alan C.
User

posted 09-24-2002 09:10

User # 844

I think Danno is right. I have been using 20 - 22 psi all summer on a widefire with no 'O' ring. I have

Alan

Posts: 391 | From: Cincinnati | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Levish
User

posted 09-24-2002 09:26

User # 9615

another case of required reading


Lean A/F's will cause havock with a lot more than just headgaskets...
Maximum Boost by Mr. Bell isn't too shabby either for those tinkerers (sp?)
-------------------All right stop collaborate and listen, it's all about boost and my turbo is hissin :D

Posts: 87 | From: New York City | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged

John Chasse
User

posted 09-24-2002 09:36

User # 1301

Danno, thanks for the post.


But this part is news to me:

quote:

Originally posted by Danno:


That's why high-end tuners like Garrity or Scott Gomes don't even bother with
O-ringing a headgasket at all...

Scott Gomes O-ringed mine - he suggested it fairly strongly.

Posts: 36 | From: Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

K27w
User

posted 09-24-2002 09:42

User # 4576

Nice post Danno, kinda firms up what I felt about chip upgrades, never trusted them to look after the
A/F correctly.
Someone I know showed me a blown gasket and burned valve, I asked if the car was chipped and
sure enough it was one of the ones you mentioned.
I have heard of 20+ being run on stock gaskets for long periods and no failures. simply by keeping
the mixture right.
Thanks for the info.
Posts: 67 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

Russ Murphy
Senior User

posted 09-24-2002 09:52

User # 4179

While I did see some cool looking blocks with BIG grooves in the tops of the cylinder walls at Garrity's
shop, I'm pretty sure Danno's meaning is that he uses the O-ringing with copper gaskets to pin the
gasket in place for BIG boost motors, not for headgasket longevity on more stock applications.
-------------------'88 951/SDS engine management/Garrett T04E/Garrity head/MSD ignition/ac delete/MBC/2.5" cat
bypass/custom borla catback/cambermeister strut brace/968 M030 swaybars&rear coilovers/Paragon
coilover conv. fronts/Koni adj. all round

Posts: 577 | From: St. Louis | Registered: Dec 2001 | IP: Logged

ian
Guru

posted 09-24-2002 10:11

Rennlist Member

User # 673

Thanks for the post danno,


It is my motivation to go buy the Air/Fuel and Boost gauges today (I am running the autothority chips)
-------------------Ian
1986 951 Black/Black
Leda Coil Overs 450lbs front, 550 rear
K27/6 Turbo, MAF, Adj FPR
And I am just getting started
http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/ian951/

Posts: 1136 | From: Charlotte, NC | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

K27w
User

posted 09-24-2002 10:19

User # 4576

Danno, what is the voltage range of the A/F meter, 0-1v ?


Thanks
Lance
Posts: 67 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

R.B.
User

posted 09-24-2002 12:42

User # 6238

Thanks Danno. As usual you keep adding to my Porsche knowledge


This makes me feel good about my decision to use the factory gasket again. Let's hope I don't screw
this one up!
-R.B.
-------------------1987 Black 951, chipped
306 000km.
- Engine rebuild done - car runs - just solving some leaky issues

Posts: 130 | From: Waterloo, Ontario | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

slevy951
User

posted 09-24-2002 12:46

Lifetime Rennlist
Member

So Danno, are you impling you like the factory gasket better? That's what I think I'm reading.....

User # 1202

-------------------Scott
'86 951
VP KLA Industries, LLC.
KLA Industries
944/951/968 Subwoofer
Odometer Gear
Center Console Lids-NEW!
Long Distance Service-NEW!
Boxster Top Fix-NEW!
New stuff coming soon, stay tuned!

Posts: 407 | From: Tulsa, OK | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Luke
Guru

posted 09-24-2002 12:58

User # 3916

is it safe to run the o2 sensor to the computer if you have a gauge on the line........ or is the
difference in voltage so minute that it doesn't affect the signal?
-------------------Luke
say "hi" on AIM : luke9583

Posts: 3329 | From: New Baltimore MI | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged

Edman951
User

posted 09-24-2002 13:05

User # 7407

Great post Danno


So in the end, witch gasket should most people use?
Does this mean the wfr gasket blows faster then a stock one under hard detonation? And if it does,
do you think it's better to use the wfr gasket to keep the piston and rings from bursting?
It's much cheaper changing the head gasket then the pistons right.
IMO having a head gasket warning you that you are running to lean / to hot is really nice when
compared to a blown motor.
-------------------88 951 130m,steveR chips,Greddy profec B boost controller,Apexi Twin chamber BOV,Custom
3"mandrel bent stainless exhaust w/highflow cat,stock wastegate dumping to atmosphere,custom
guage plate powder coated by me w/carbon fibre boost and modified a/f ratio guage,and more to
come...i've only had the car a few month's
http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/edman951/

Posts: 116 | From: Montreal, Canada | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Danno
Guru

posted 09-24-2002 13:18

Rennlist Member

User # 1947

"Great post Danno

"

Why thank you!


Ok, I may have been a little cursory with my 'hi-end tuner' remark. The
impression I got from them was that O-ringing a wide fire-ring headgasket doesn't do a whole lot.
And they both were pushing copper headgaskets. But due to the lower compressibility of a copper
headgasket, leaks can occur if you don't have perfectly matching block & head surfaces. Putting in a
tongue & groove O-ring will deform the gasket into a 3-D structure to provide a seal in the event
there's a gap along the mating surface somewhere. A copper headgasket also requires a special
anaerobic sealant as well.
"Danno, what is the voltage range of the A/F meter, 0-1v ?"
Yes, but here's our target range:

When cold, you want to monitor from 0.96-0.99v and when it's fully warmed up, you want to cover
0.81-0.87v. This completely encompasses the too-lean end at about 13.0:1 all the way to too rich at
11.0:1 (under WOT). As you can see, this falls inside the resolution of one or two LEDs on those
air-fuel monitor gauges.
You CAN make an air-fuel gauge that uses these types of
with 1-millivolt accuracy and program in a look-up table of
need to monitor exhaust-gas temperature in order to know
to compensate. Martin Taylor in NZ was going to build one
much interest.

O2-sensors if you use a micro-controller


voltage vs. air-fuel ratio.. But you'd also
how much to shift the table up and down
of these units, but I guess there wasn't

"is it safe to run the o2 sensor to the computer if you have a gauge on the line........ or is the difference
in voltage so minute that it doesn't affect the signal?"
It should be fine since the air-fuel monitor gauge (if designed well) will use a high-impedance tap to
prevent draining the signal. Although the factory did use a shielded coax cable, so interference may
be an issue. So keep the wires to your guage as short as possible.
"So in the end, witch gasket should most people use?"
"So Danno, are you impling you like the factory gasket better? That's what I think I'm reading....."
Well, I think either one would work fine as long as you keep your air-fuel ratio within check. That's
because they both have the same thin layer of steel facing the combustion chamber. Although it may
appear the standard headgasket has a secondary back wall to the compression-ring once the first one
goes. But I'm not sure how strong that rolled overlap is, and combustion pressure may just leak
under the compression-ring once the front face goes.
My next headgasket will be a copper one! Now that I've got my air-fuel ratio dialed in (or easily
dialed-in), let's turn up the boost !!!

Posts: 4076 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

over1g
Senior User

posted 09-24-2002 13:32

Rennlist Member

User # 354

I've been running 19psi with stock injectors, stock air flow meter, stock turbo, stock pressure regulator
for close to a year now on pump gas. So far no problems, and according to my A/F gauge the mixture
is dead on but we know they're not very accurate. I've been meaning to get the bastard on a dyno
with an exaust analyzer, and hopefully that'll still happen and I'll make sure to let you know of the
results...
PS: This is running the much hated Europroducts chips... Ofcourse the car has many other mods, but
no fuel/ignition controllers.
Ahmet
-------------------944 Turbo
944

Posts: 799 | From: Cary NC | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Brent 86 951
User

posted 09-24-2002 14:58

User # 824

Danno,
The first dyno sheet (Woorleys) doesn't look like it gets to a too lean condition. His stays under 13 all
the way to 6500 rpm. Adrials looks like it crosses the 13:1 threshold and the last one looks like it
would if the rpms kept going up. All look to be too rich just before heading lean.
So 13:1 is too lean and 11:1 is too rich. In addition it looks like it is tough to accurately monitor the
AF ratio due to temp variations. What is a guy to do? Are there any "good" chips out there? Do you
have to go to a stand alone system to set this up correctly? I want it run well but don't want to put the
dyno guys kids through school doing it. Any suggestions? It really looks as though this issue has not
been well adressed by chip makers, why?
-------------------86 951, Test Pipe, 450# C/O frt, 29mm hollow rear, M030 bars, koni yellows
Great DE car, FOR SALE $7500

Posts: 143 | From: Staples, MN | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

dlr944
User

posted 09-24-2002 16:10

User # 4999

Danno "While I hadn't dyno-tested the car, I'm going to assume the my air-fuel ratio looked similar
to Dan Worley's and Adrial's above."
Danno it appears that Dan Worley's A/F ratio is roughly 11.5 at 6.5K RPM. This doesn't appear to be
lean (under 12). Granted the A/F is overly rich in the mid-range. So if your A/F ratio was similar to
Dan's do you think one is in jeopardy of blowing a head gasket?
-------------------89 951
3"MAF, ARC2, ARM1, LBE

Posts: 32 | From: Austin | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

tazman
User

posted 09-24-2002 18:10

Rennlist Member

User # 1871

Hey Danno did you receive the email I sent you? I need to figure this out so I can place my order.
Thank You
-------------------Tom
88 951S
AutoThority Chips
APEXi AVC-R
SS Fuel Lines

Posts: 459 | From: Reading PA | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Danno
Guru

posted 09-24-2002 18:14

Rennlist Member

User # 1947

"The first dyno sheet (Woorleys) doesn't look like it gets to a too lean condition. His stays under 13 all
the way to 6500 rpm."
"Danno it appears that Dan Worley's A/F ratio is roughly 11.5 at 6.5K RPM."
Actually I was referring to the tendency for the mixture to get leaner in the upper RPMs. With
fuel-pressure set to give a good mid-range mixture, it got progressively leaner and leaner as the
RPMs rose. So by richening up the mixture across-the-board, you end up sacrificing A LOT of the
mid-range power in order to keep the high-end mixture in check. This gives you a sluggish, soggy
mid-range/partial-throttle response.
The goal is to have chips that provide you with a flat mixture across the board at the maximum
power-producing mixture of 12.5:1 all the way to redline. Not only is this the safest, but the most
powerful. If you look at 'end AFR' dark-blue curve from the EuroProducts chips above, you'll see that

by cleaning up the mixture, we got a 20% boost in mid-range torque with a lot less turbo lag. In fact,
by 2800rpm, we got more torque than the entire torque curve of the uncorrected chips.
On Dan Worley's car, if he was able to get a flat mixture of 12.5:1 across-the-board, he would've
gotten 20% more torque & power for his goal of 300rwhp. This would be typical of K27 turbos @ 15psi
if you can get a clean mixture. But, safety and durability should take precedence, so he sacrificed alot
of power and mid-range torque in order to keep the high-RPM mixture from getting too lean.

Posts: 4076 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Dan87951
Senior User

posted 09-24-2002 19:30

Rennlist Member

User # 2272

How do your chips work with someone who already has a moded car? For instances I already have a
HR Stage 3 MAF, ARC2, HR 3" testpipe, Greedy Boost controller low set @ 10psi, high set at 15psi,
adjustable fuel pressure regulator, and HR chips (which I heard were autothority bootlegs). I notice
the mid rpm bog if I gas it, so I guess my real question is if I purchased a set of chips from you can I
return them if I don't see a difference with my setup?
-------------------Dan951
Card Carrying Rennlist Member!
87 951 49k miles
HR Stage 3 MAF, HR 3" SS testpipe, Huntley Racing Chips, ARC2, autometer carbon fiber gauges,
Greddy Profec B, SFR short shift kit, Momo F16 Carbon knob.
87 951 200k Completely screwed up right now and GOING FOR A FULL REBUILD.

Posts: 574 | From: Adrian, MI + Grand Rapids MI | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Peckster
Senior User
User # 3472

posted 09-24-2002 19:58

We are not worthy.


Posts: 821 | From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

TurboTime
User

posted 09-24-2002 23:04

User # 9777

It must be tough for Danno to not brag/promote his products. But as the owner of APE stage II chips,
I'd like to know if his chips will keep me from running too lean. For me, it would be worth the cost of
new chips, for the peace of mind. Not all of us can/know how to rebuild our top end, bottom end or
any other end for that matter.
-------------------'89 944 Turbo: APE Stage II chips & LBE, 150K miles strong.
'83 944 300K miles -all stock.
PCA# 2002090948
http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/'89_turbotime/

Posts: 16 | From: Rosamond, CA -Willow Springs RCWY | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged

Brian McCoy
User

posted 09-25-2002 00:09

Rennlist Member

User # 9106

Thanks for the time Danno - We all appreciate it.


Heh, I don't have anything else..

My car is a stock 'looker', I think I'll keep it that way for awhile..

More car than I need already anyway.

-------------------Cheers,
Brian McCoy
86/87 Honda VFR 750 'Mongrel'
86 951 Kalahari Metalic - Stock!
http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/b_mccoy

Posts: 201 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged

Danno
Guru

posted 09-25-2002 02:54

Rennlist Member

User # 1947

Let's have a little discussion on how the DME converts a 0-5v signal coming from the stock air-flow
meter (AFM) into an injector duty-cycle. First is a conversion table that generates a duty-cycle number
based upon AFM input-voltage and RPM:

Notice that given the identical voltage inputs, the duty-cycle will vary as a function of RPM as well.
The second part of the procedure then overlays a 3D correction map on top of that duty-cycle
conversion. This is expressed as +/- percentages. Here are some sample correction maps used under
partial-throttle conditions:

After these corrections are applied, further adjustments to the duty-cycle numbers are made based
upon altitude, air-temperature and O2-sensor feedback. However, these final adjustments can only
affect the final injector duty-cycle a certain percentage, so it's vitally important that the correction map
correlates to your actual airflow conditions closely.
This leads us into the full-throttle fuel-map. Think of it as the single stripe on the far, far left of those
3D-maps above (on the left-hand wall). I've extracted that full-load stripe from several chips and
compared them:

As you can see, the two other aftermarket chips provide a significant fuel-enrichment correction in the
mid-range only, and they dial out fuel in the higher-RPMs. We actually have three distinct chips to
deal with air-flow conditions from a stock K26/6, a TurboS K26/8 and a K27/Garrett aftermarket turbo
that can hold max-boost all the way to redline.
"How do your chips work with someone who already has a moded car? For instances I already have a
HR Stage 3 MAF, ARC2, HR 3" testpipe, Greedy Boost controller"
Due to the difference in voltage-output vs. airflow of a MAF compared to a AFM, you would need a
different initial VAF-to-Injector Duty-Cycle table for a MAF sensor. We're working on that for our MAF-5
kit. However, since you've already have the ARC2, you can manually make that correction. So our
chips would work fine in that configuration. And you can return them if they don't solve your mid-range
bog issue. This mid-range sogginess is actually a combination of too much mid-range fuel and
igntion-timing.
"as the owner of APE stage II chips, I'd like to know if his chips will keep me from running too lean. "
Yup, as you can see from the comparison chart above, we've dialed out a lot of the mid-range
richness and added it up top to combat the high-end lean tendencies.
"It must be tough for Danno to not brag/promote his products. "
Nah, why bother. I've had enough frustrations with getting my car tuned optimally and not getting
much help from the 'tuners' in the market (who just wants to sell products). Blown things up a couple
of times. That's why I've come up with solutions that were intially aimed at solving the particular
problems that I've had. If it's not the fix for your particular problem, I'm going advise against it and
point you in the right direction.

"Thanks for the time Danno - We all appreciate it."

You're most welcome!


-------------------http://www.gururacing.net

Posts: 4076 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Dan87951
Senior User

posted 09-25-2002 11:28

Rennlist Member

User # 2272

Danno Private message me so we can work out the details of this transaction. I won't need the boost
enahancer deal or the 3 bar regulator as I already have those departments covered. Just need the
chips.
Dan
-------------------Dan951
Card Carrying Rennlist Member!
87 951 49k miles
HR Stage 3 MAF, HR 3" SS testpipe, Huntley Racing Chips, ARC2, autometer carbon fiber gauges,
Greddy Profec B, SFR short shift kit, Momo F16 Carbon knob.
87 951 200k Completely screwed up right now and GOING FOR A FULL REBUILD.

Posts: 574 | From: Adrian, MI + Grand Rapids MI | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Dare
User

posted 09-25-2002 11:43

User # 6360

This is GREAT information! Thanks Danno!


One question: you mention the 3D correction maps that are applied after the initial duty cycle number
is computed. What purpose do these maps serve and how are they chosen?
-------------------Jay
1986
2000
2000
2002

Porsche 944 Turbo


Audi S4
Audi A6 4.2
Mercury Mountaineer

Posts: 14 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged

Mike S.
User

posted 09-25-2002 12:30

User # 535

Guru..nah. Super GURU yes!!!!

I proclaim him Dr. Danno.

Posts: 273 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

toddk911
User

posted 09-25-2002 18:28

User # 6512

Well, I just had my headgasket blow due to overheating problems, proving Danno's point that HEAT,
not PRESSURE is the leading cause to blown headgaskets. I went with the wide fire ring just to be
safe.
p.s. I have a stock BRAND NEW IN THE BAG head gasket for sale. email me with an offer
toddk911@aol.com.
I also just placed my order for GURU's chips as we have heard on Rennlist time and time again...THE
KEY TO ENGINE SAFETY AND PERFORMANCE IS A CLEAN AIR FUEL ratio.

Makes me very interested in setting up a water/alcahol injection system. I have read a few sites that
home mechanics have built and installed themselves to tremendous gains and increased engine
safety. They were reading 120-150 degree drops which made the engine run MUCH cooler and allowed
for more boost and ignition advance. I think 3-4 more psi. i.e. much safer engine with 30-40 more hp
to the wheels!!!
-------------------toddk911@aol.com,
tkassociatesinc@aol.com
1987 951 GURU chips,3BAR FPR
Wide Fire Ring, Shaved Head
LBE/15psi
Koni Yellows
Turbo S rear Torsion bar
Welt. 250lb springs
Had 1986.5 928S, 1983 944 N/A

Posts: 257 | From: orlando,fl | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged

Peckster
Senior User
User # 3472

posted 09-25-2002 19:53

Time shift 4d charts coming soon...


Posts: 821 | From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

michael2e
User

posted 09-25-2002 23:24

User # 3327

Thanks Danno for an informative discourse. I'm curious why a lot of smart 951 owners and well
respected engine builders who are creating big horsepower have gone through the effort and expense
of O-ringing if A/F ratios are the critical element for a good head seal. Is this undertaking a safety
backup to lean conditions which may cause premature HG failure or is there more of a functional
mechanical benefit provided by O-rings in engines running higher boost? Any builders following this
thread? Also curious about opinions on head studs: stock lifespan, value of higher buck (e.g
raceware, garrity, etc) studs. Thanks very much
-------------------Mike
1988 951

Posts: 116 | From: Aspen | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Levish
User

posted 09-26-2002 00:45

User # 9615
quote:

Originally posted by toddk911:


Makes me very interested in setting up a water/alcahol injection system. I have read a
few sites that home mechanics have built and installed themselves to tremendous
gains and increased engine safety. They were reading 120-150 degree drops which
made the engine run MUCH cooler and allowed for more boost and ignition advance. I
think 3-4 more psi. i.e. much safer engine with 30-40 more hp to the wheels!!!

Waterinjection itself won't gain any HP, in fact it will displace air and fuel in the cyl and make less HP.
You will gain some anti-knock resistance, but you won't benefit if you don't need it.
A bigger intercooler should do much the samething. Some have gone so far as to mist the intercooler
with CO2
-------------------All right stop collaborate and listen, it's all about boost and my turbo is hissin :D

Posts: 87 | From: New York City | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged

DanD
User

posted 09-26-2002 01:39

Rennlist Member

User # 323

I agree that water injection in itself won't increase HP. If you are running enough octane that the
computer is not retarding the timing due to knock. Then you're good. But, for most of that, octane is
hard to come by. Racing gas is $4-$5 per gallon.
I see water injection doing 2 things. Replacing the need for high octane gas (100+) in most cases,
thereby keeping the computer from retarding the time, and cooling the intake charge that becomes
heat soaked over time.
Also, The water never makes it to the engine (or shouldn't). It vaporizes the moment it hits the
intake charge, absorbing the heat/energy and cooling the air/fuel mixture that does go into the
cylinder.
Here are a couple sites on water injection.
http://www.frii.com/~maphill/wi.html
http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/water_injection.htm
http://www.racetep.com/wik.html#trbh20
http://www.syclone.freeserve.co.uk/waterinjection.htm
I know that with what I spent on race gas this year, I could have paid for 1/2 a water injection kit.
My 2cents.
-------------------DanD
86 951 *2

Posts: 268 | From: Westcoast | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

Olli Snellman
Senior User

posted 09-26-2002 02:07

User # 703

As usual the most educational things from Danno !


Just can't wait to get Guru chip upgarde into my Car !
Olli
'88 951
-------------------Olli
'88 951
http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/olli/

Posts: 805 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Barry Lenoble
User

posted 09-26-2002 15:07

User # 9718

Hey,
One important difference between the WFR and the
stock gasket is in the thickness near the water
passage:

(Image)
If you look at the area I circled, you can see
how close the water passage is to the gasket.
On my car, the stock gasket got old and brittle.
It did not burn up (my engine is stock) but
instead got rotten and allowed combustion gases

to enter the water jacket.


The WFR is much thicker in that area and should
last a lot longer.
I have seen three bad head gaskets on 944 turbos,
and all were bad in the same area, #4 cylinder,
right at that water passage.
Barry
-------------------Barry Lenoble
lenoble@optonline.net
http://members.rennlist.com/drive944/

Posts: 5 | From: Selden, NY | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged

Puppan
User

posted 09-26-2002 16:52

User # 6430

A very big thank you from Sweden! This is what I Suspected since I blew a head valve on my Previuos
944turbo-91..
I have now runned my car for 5000km and the gasket is still ok. I have run approx 1.3bar=19psi this
period.
I tuned my car on the dyno and adjusted my AFM and my fuel pressuare so my A/F seemed ok but a
little bit rich!
Regards
Pete
Thanks again!
-------------------##############################
Porsche at speed is not just words! Its a religon.....
-------------------------------Porsche 944 Turbo Cup-86 (One of 88 manufactured)Matter roll-cage, Recaro-seats, 5-point safety
belt.
slightly modified with K26/27, Sandn Chip, Sandn Camshaft, Sandn Wastegate, 503cc
Fuel-injektors, modified intake sensors.
12.50/113 on Quarter mile
0-100Km/h 4.79sec
www.sanden.nu

Posts: 9 | From: Stockholm-Sweden | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged

Danno
Guru

posted 09-26-2002 19:00

Rennlist Member

User # 1947

"One question: you mention the 3D correction maps that are applied after the initial duty cycle number
is computed. What purpose do these maps serve and how are they chosen?"
That's because the amount of air that's actually entering the engine through the intake-valves is not
the same amount that's being measured at the air-flow meter. Check out this thread for an
air-pressure vs. density map as the air flows through the engine: Topic: A bit rich...but my buddy's
CBR600 can't keep up!. Some people call this VE-volumetric efficiency which can be measured as a
ratio of actual air-volume ingested at STP vs. displacement. This ratio changes based upon
intake-tract restrictions, cam-timing & lift, combustion-chamber shape, RPM, headers & exhaust, etc.
Depending upon these factors, you may get 90% VE at low-RPMs, but only 60% at high-RPMs (or vice
versa), yet the air-flow meter is registering the same flow. So the correction maps are to make
adjustments based upon the elasticity of air and how it's stretched and squeezed as it moves through
the engine.
" I'm curious why a lot of smart 951 owners and well respected engine builders who are creating big
horsepower have gone through the effort and expense of O-ringing if A/F ratios are the critical
element for a good head seal. Is this undertaking a safety backup to lean conditions which may cause
premature HG failure or is there more of a functional mechanical benefit provided by O-rings in
engines running higher boost?"
There's another issue that's part of the headgasket failure equation, but I can't place a percentage of

blame on it because I'm still trying to figure out how significant it is. That's flexing of the cylinders
due to the open deck. But it does contribute because Porsche changed the block's design later to
compensate. Hondas use this style of block and a very common modification is to install a
block-brace to connect the tops of the cylinders to the outside block casing. This reduces the flexing
of the cylinders when increasing the compression, or converting to forced-induction. While this is such
a common mod, that pre-fitted CNC'ed block-braces that pop right in are available for Hondas, our
blocks would require a custom-made one welded in like on this 928 engine. If you look at the later
3.0L blocks, they have siamesed cylinders with extra material casted in place to connect the tops of
the cylinders.
I suspect that there's a certain amount of fretting going on at the headgasket junction. This would
cause a rocking back & forth motion that would open up a gap between the headgasket and cylinders.
So the role of tongue & groove O-ringing that's done by a lot of the engine-builders is to pin the tops
of the cylinders in place.
"It did not burn up (my engine is stock) but instead got rotten and allowed combustion gases to enter
the water jacket."
The first thing separating your combustion-chamber from the rest of the headgasket and water-jacket
is the steel compression-ring. If combustion gases got past the compression-ring, you've already got
a failure. Either the head-studs don't have enough or lost tension, or the compression-ring's seal has
been compromised somehow. At that point, it's irrelevant what the condition of the fiber part of the
gasket is, because combustion-pressure is way higher than the 15psi or so that the cooling-system is
under.

Posts: 4076 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Danno
Guru

posted 10-01-2002 05:50

Rennlist Member

User # 1947

Ok, a quick follow-up because someone brought up a good point:


"The WFR gasket is laterally more rigid due to the "u" shape, like a
construction "I" beam, and because it's wider, it can transfer more heat to
the clamping surfaces. Simply put: It will handle pressure and heat better."
That's only true if the heat-transfer is perpendicular to the headgasket. Like from the fiber inside the
gasket through the wide clamping surface directly upwards & downwards to the block/head. Even then,
only the bottom surface to the block makes a difference since that's the only surface that's different.
However, since the heat is originating from inside the cylinder, it has to travel from the point of the U
shape sideways & outwards through the legs before arriving at the block/head surfaces. Since the
heat-transfer equation is:
watts = [kA(dT)] / d
where: k is thermal conductivity to transmission medium
A is cross-sectional area of transmission medium
dT is delta of temperature gradient (T1 - T2)
d is distance heat has to travel
Three out of four of these variables are known. We know the thermal conductivity of steel in the
headgasket compression-ring. We also know that the thermal conductivity of surrounding aluminum is
about 4x faster. We know the delta-T from the heat of combustion and the water-jacket temperature.
We also know how the distance from the tip of U on both the standard and wide firering headgaskets
fo the head & cylinders. All the above factors are identical in both cases.
What is up to question is what path does the heat take? I assert that they are both the same. Please
refer to this rather large heat-flow diagram (open in new window).
As I stated earlier, the heat does not flow perpendicular to the headgasket through the entire contact
surface at the tops and bottoms (blue lines). But rather it starts at the edge of the compression-ring
that faces the combustion chamber and flows sideways (yellow lines). Since the amount of heat
transferred is inversely proportional to the distance traveled, the outer edges of the compression-ring
gets heated up the least. This is also happens to be the only area that is different between the two
headgaskets as well, and it receives the least amount of heat.
Since aluminum conducts heat 4x faster than steel, once the heat reaches the aluminum mating
surfaces of the head and cylinder-walls, it's wicked away very,very quickly (also do to much larger
cross-sectional area of head/cylinders for conduction path). By the time you get even halfway to the
outer edges of either headgasket, the compression-ring will be about the same temperature as the
head & cylinders.
Conversely the part that is heated up the most, is the point furthest away from the cool head &
cylinder surfaces. This is the center of the U-shaped edge of the compression-ring. Then if you
analyze the headgaskets that have 'blown', you'll see that the compression-ring is rarely ever
disfigured from its perfectly round shape (with or without O-ringing). But rather, its the very inside
edge that's completely burned away leaving two flat rings on the top and bottom; which can still

conduct heat to the head and cylinder walls PERFECTLY by the way.
I still say that the best headgasket to use would be a copper headgasket with tongue & groove
O-ringing. Copper conducts heat 8x times faster than steel and 2x faster than aluminum. So a cooper
headgasket would immediately transfer ALL of the heat it faces to the mating aluminum heat/cylinder
surfaces. And the solid copper provides a much thicker conduction path of it's entire thickness 1.5mm
vs. 0.1mm for the thin/hollow steel compression-ring.
However durable it may be, a copper headgasket (or wide fire-ring for that matter) can not fix the
actual cause of burnt headgaskets either. Which is an incorrect air-fuel ratio (too lean much worse
than too rich). In which case, the weakest link in your engine will just move from the headgasket to
the rings or valves (much costlier to repair than headgasket).
And another worthwhile mod to investigate would be a block-brace to close up the open-deck. There
must be a reason Porsche connected the cylinders in the later 3.0L blocks (non-turbo at that). Anyone
had failure-rates of 3.0L Turbo engines vs. 951 engines?
I also agree with Chris that the mating surfaces has to be ABSOLUTELY clean for the best heat
conduction possible.

Posts: 4076 | From: Santa Barbara, California | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

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