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05012014,02:20PM

#1

vicky_molokh

[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?

GURPSFAQKeeper

Greetings,all!
I'mtryingtowrapmyheadaroundthedefaultdivisionofspheresofinfluence
betweenthepathsofMind,SpiritandUndeadwhenitcomestodealingwith
differentminds.I'mnot100%aboutthelogicalwayofsplittingmindtypes
betweenthosepaths.

JoinDate:Mar2006
Location:Kyv,Ukraine

Classically,aghostlysoulisUndead.Andacreaturethosebodyandsoleareone,
singlething,isaSpirit.Okay,thatkindamakessense...butRevivification
involvesBodyandSpiriteffects,notUndeadeffects.Itdoesseemoddthat
affectingthethoughtsofasoultakesMindwhileitinhabitsabody,butUndead
whileitlingerswithoutone.
Also,aninterestingcaseisentryintodreamworld,OOBE,possession/mindswap,
astralprojectionetc.,whichareapparentlyhandledwithpureMind.
Anybodygotaclearerpictureofallthis?
Thanksinadvance!
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05012014,02:53PM

Ghostdancer
PyramidPotionMaster
RitualPathMagicAdept

JoinDate:Jun2006
Location:Portsmouth,VA,
USA

#2
Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
Classically,aghostlysoulisUndead.
Yes.Ghosts,spectors,spooks,etc.areaffectedbyPathofUndead.Ifitwasa
livingbeingatonepointandisnowaspiritit'sundeadandthusaffectedby
PathofUndead.
Quote:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=125441

1/7

04/08/2016

[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?SteveJacksonGamesForums

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
Andacreaturethosebodyandsoleareone,singlething,isaSpirit.
Anythingthathasalwaysbeenapurelyspiritcreaturethatisitsstatehas
neverchangedlikeaAngel,Demon,etc.usesPathofSpirit.Italsocoversthe
soulofastilllivinghumanbeingoratleastonethatisneitherundeadnorhas
movedonit'sabigfluffylightorwhatever.Thatmuddiesthatwatersabit,but
ifyoulookatitas:
PathofUndead:Anythingthatwasaliveandisnow(un)aliveregardlessof
typeorexistence:
PathofSpirit:Anythingthathasaspirit/bodythatisonething.
Alternatievely,thespiritoflivingthings.
PathofMind:Anythinglivingmind.

Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
Okay,thatkindamakessense...butRevivificationinvolvesBodyand
Spiriteffects,notUndeadeffects.Itdoesseemoddthataffectingthe
thoughtsofasoultakesMindwhileitinhabitsabody,butUndeadwhileit
lingerswithoutone.
Revivification?WetalkingAdam/TheMonsterofFrankensteinFame?That'sa
livingcreature.Ithasaheartbeat,eats,drinks,breathes,andsoonit's
affectedbyPathofMind.Yes,itwasdeadatsomepoint,butnowit'saliveagain
(IT'SALIVE!ALIVE!).
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
Also,aninterestingcaseisentryintodreamworld,OOBE,
possession/mindswap,astralprojectionetc.,whichareapparently
handledwithpureMind.
Yep.That'sallhandedwithPathofMind.Now,someGMsmaydecidethatit's
besthandledwithPathofSpiritbecauseyou'reprojectingyourspiritoutwardor
evencreateaentirelynewPath.ForExample,IcreatedPathofDreamsformy
AwakeningcampaignanditwasessentiallyaamalgamofmanyPathskillsinto
onebutonlydealingwithdreams,dreamstuff,sleep,andsoon.
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05012014,03:08PM

#3

Varyon

Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?

JoinDate:Jun2013

Ultimately,it'suptotheGM.Asitstands,youhave,asIseeit,threetypesof
intelligentbeingstheliving,theundead,andspirits.Thelivinghavetheirbodies
affectedbyPathofBodyandtheirmindsbyPathofMind,theundeadhaveboth
theirbodiesandmindsaffectedbyPathofUndead,andspiritshaveboththeir
"bodies"(regardlessofsubstance)andmindsaffectedbyPathofSpirit.Pathof
Spirit,atleast,canalsohaveaneffectonlivingbeingsthathaveanimmortal
soul(MantleofGlory).
AsImentionedinapreviousthread,IcouldeasilyseeasettingwherePathof
Mindappliedequallytotheliving,undead,andspirits,whileyou'dusePathof
Body/Undead/Spirittoaffecttheirbodies.

05012014,04:32PM

#4
Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=125441

2/7

04/08/2016

[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?SteveJacksonGamesForums

vicky_molokh
GURPSFAQKeeper

Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyGhostdancer
Anythingthathasalwaysbeenapurelyspiritcreaturethatisitsstate
hasneverchangedlikeaAngel,Demon,etc.usesPathofSpirit.Italso
coversthesoulofastilllivinghumanbeingoratleastonethatisneither
undeadnorhasmovedonit'sabigfluffylightorwhatever.That
muddiesthatwatersabit,butifyoulookatitas:

JoinDate:Mar2006
Location:Kyv,Ukraine

PathofUndead:Anythingthatwasaliveandisnow(un)alive
regardlessoftypeorexistence:
PathofSpirit:Anythingthathasaspirit/bodythatisonething.
Alternatievely,thespiritoflivingthings.
PathofMind:Anythinglivingmind.

The'spiritoflivingbeings'seemstofalloutofthislogic.E.g.ifIdieand
someonewantstomakeasancewithme,I'maghostlounginginthesky,
roastingintheground,hauntingmyfavouritesubwaystation,communingwith
theforestorwhatever.SoI'maffectedbythePathofUndead.Whywoulda
livingpersonbecoveredbyamixofBody,MindandSpirit,butadeadperson
fullycoveredbyonepath?
IguessI'llprefertokeepSpiritforTrueSpiritsonly.
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyGhostdancer
Revivification?WetalkingAdam/TheMonsterofFrankensteinFame?
That'salivingcreature.Ithasaheartbeat,eats,drinks,breathes,andso
onit'saffectedbyPathofMind.Yes,itwasdeadatsomepoint,but
nowit'saliveagain(IT'SALIVE!ALIVE!).
ImeantheRevivifyRPMRitualfromp.32ofPyramid#3/56Prehistory.
Butyes,thisraisesinterestingquestionsonthedifferencebetweenrevenants,
homunculi,fleshgolemsandclaygolems.
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Myaccesstotheforumisunreliablewhiletheforum'stighterIPfilteringlasts.
Repliesmayberare.

05012014,04:43PM

Ghostdancer
PyramidPotionMaster
RitualPathMagicAdept

JoinDate:Jun2006
Location:Portsmouth,VA,
USA

#5
Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
The'spiritoflivingbeings'seemstofalloutofthislogic.E.g.ifIdieand
someonewantstomakeasancewithme,I'maghostlounginginthe
sky,roastingintheground,hauntingmyfavouritesubwaystation,
communingwiththeforestorwhatever.SoI'maffectedbythePathof
Undead.WhywouldalivingpersonbecoveredbyamixofBody,Mind
andSpirit,butadeadpersonfullycoveredbyonepath?
IguessI'llprefertokeepSpiritforTrueSpiritsonly.
Becauseitwasdesignedthatway?Seriously,PathofBodyalreadycoversplants,
animals,humans...livingthingsbasically.Sotokeepsomesemblanceofbalance
itneededtobesplitintoPathofBodyandMind.Atleastthat'showIreadit.

Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
ImeantheRevivifyRPMRitualfromp.32ofPyramid#3/56Prehistory.
Ahhh.Thatdoesn'tworkintothisatall.Ifyou'realive,you'regood.Thespellis
summoningthesoulbackintothebodynotmakingthepersonundeadthat'sa
wholeotherritual.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=125441

3/7

04/08/2016

[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?SteveJacksonGamesForums
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
Butyes,thisraisesinterestingquestionsonthedifferencebetween
revenants,homunculi,fleshgolemsandclaygolems.
Notreallymuchofadifference,revenantsarePathofUndead,homunculi,and
thegolemsarePathofMatter.
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05012014,04:45PM

Bruno

#6
Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
WhywouldalivingpersonbecoveredbyamixofBody,MindandSpirit,
butadeadpersonfullycoveredbyonepath?

JoinDate:Sep2004
Location:Canada

Generallyfortworeasons:
1)Livingpeopleareprivelagedbybeingawesomeandhardtototallydominate
withmagic.There'sareasonwhyeverythingintheuniverserevolvesaroundus,
afterall.
2)Gamebalanceormoreaccuratelyput,soplayersdon'tgethonkedoffby
NPCsorcerersjankingtheirchainswithPathofMortalityallthetimeandthePC
sorcererusingPathofMortalitytonotonlyheal,buff,andwardtheentireparty,
butdefeateverymortalfoeaswell.
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05012014,05:04PM

vicky_molokh
GURPSFAQKeeper

JoinDate:Mar2006
Location:Kyv,Ukraine

#7
Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyGhostdancer
Becauseitwasdesignedthatway?Seriously,PathofBodyalready
coversplants,animals,humans...livingthingsbasically.Sotokeepsome
semblanceofbalanceitneededtobesplitintoPathofBodyandMind.At
leastthat'showIreadit.
I'mwonderingaboutlettingMindaffectthemindsofanyone,whetheralive,not,
orspirit.WhethertoletSpiritandUndeadalsosubstituteforMindof
spirits/undead,I'munsureI'malsounsureaboutanotheroptionmerging
UndeadandSpiritforthebodies,butlettingMindaffectallminds,andremoving
themindaffectingcomponentofSpirit/Undead.Permutations,mutations,
houserules,variations...
ButIbetterunderstandthedefaultsetupbeforedoinganythinglikethat.
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyGhostdancer
Ahhh.Thatdoesn'tworkintothisatall.Ifyou'realive,you'regood.The
spellissummoningthesoulbackintothebodynotmakingtheperson
undeadthat'sawholeotherritual.
Iwasn'tthinkingitmakeapersonundead,butitdoesneedtocontroltheghost
ofthedeceasedinorderto'putitbackin'.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=125441

4/7

04/08/2016

[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?SteveJacksonGamesForums
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyGhostdancer
Notreallymuchofadifference,revenantsarePathofUndead,
homunculi,andthegolemsarePathofMatter.
IguessIshould'veusedGeistTheSinEatersinsteadofrevenantstohighlight
whatImean.Thesortwherethepersonisundead,butdefinitelythebodyis
alive.Andtheideaofahomunculuswastoothatthebodyisalive,butmayor
maynothaveasoul,butdoeshaveamind,whetherrudimentaryorcomplete.
__________________
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Myaccesstotheforumisunreliablewhiletheforum'stighterIPfilteringlasts.
Repliesmayberare.

05012014,05:10PM

Ghostdancer
PyramidPotionMaster
RitualPathMagicAdept

JoinDate:Jun2006
Location:Portsmouth,VA,
USA

#8
Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
I'mwonderingaboutlettingMindaffectthemindsofanyone,whether
alive,not,orspirit.WhethertoletSpiritandUndeadalsosubstitutefor
Mindofspirits/undead,I'munsureI'malsounsureaboutanotheroption
mergingUndeadandSpiritforthebodies,butlettingMindaffectall
minds,andremovingthemindaffectingcomponentofSpirit/Undead.
Permutations,mutations,houserules,variations...
ButIbetterunderstandthedefaultsetupbeforedoinganythinglikethat.
Unlessyougetsure...Iwouldn'tmesswithanything,butthat'sjustme.
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
Iwasn'tthinkingitmakeapersonundead,butitdoesneedtocontrolthe
ghostofthedeceasedinorderto'putitbackin'.
Maybethedefinitionofghostisn'texactlyclear:asoulorspiritisnotaghost.
It'sasoulorspirit(oranimusorkaorwhatever).Aghostisthesoulofa
deceasedpersonwhohasnotmovedonorotherwisegonetotheirfinal
destination(e.g.,topunishmentortoreward).Sotheyareinasense...undead.I
madesureIspecificallystatedinthatspellthatitgetsharderwhentheperson
hasbeendeadlonger.Thisisbecausemanyculturesbelievethata
soul/spirit/animusstickaroundthebodyuntilit'sproperlyburied,thesoulhas
hadachancetosaygoodbye,andsoon.Insomeculturesthisisbad(hello
NavajoGhostsickness)inothersit'sallaboutseeingthoseyouloveonelasttime
whiletheyarealive.
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
IguessIshould'veusedGeistTheSinEatersinsteadofrevenantsto
highlightwhatImean.Thesortwherethepersonisundead,but
definitelythebodyisalive.
Nope.That'sadeadthingwearingameatsuitusePathofUndead.
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyvicky_molokh
Andtheideaofahomunculuswastoothatthebodyisalive,butmayor
maynothaveasoul,butdoeshaveamind,whetherrudimentaryor
complete.
Mmmm.Yesandno.Dependingonthetraditionhomunculiarebasically
"alchemygolems"inthetraditionalsense.Thatistheyareanimateclay.What
youarethinkingofaresimulacrums(popculturegetsthetwoconfused)whichis
abeingbroughttolifebyalchemyhe'scoveredbyPathofBody.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=125441

5/7

04/08/2016

[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?SteveJacksonGamesForums

HereitisassimpleasIcangetit:Ifit'saliveit'scoveredbyPathofBody/Mind.
Ifit'sdeadbutisnotanimate(thoughnotalive)that'sPathofUndead.Ifit'sa
spiritthatisnot,norhaseverbeendeadthenitisPathofSpirit.That'sit.It's
thatsimple.
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05012014,07:07PM

#9

jasontaylor

Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?

Whataboutasaintlyvisitation?Thatwouldnotnormallybeconsideredundead.I
thinkundeadhavetobeinsomewaycursedorenslaved.Nazgulareundead.So
wereTheOathbreakers.Gandalfathisresurrectionwasn't.
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05012014,07:17PM

Ghostdancer
PyramidPotionMaster
RitualPathMagicAdept

JoinDate:Jun2006
Location:Portsmouth,VA,
USA

#10
Re:[RPM]ThetrickydivisionbetweenMind,SpiritandUndead?
Quote:

OriginallyPostedbyjasontaylor
Whataboutasaintlyvisitation?Thatwouldnotnormallybeconsidered
undead.Ithinkundeadhavetobeinsomewaycursedorenslaved.
Nazgulareundead.SowereTheOathbreakers.Gandalfathis
resurrectionwasn't.
Notnecessarily.Undeadareundeadwhethertheyservethelegionsofhell,the
hostofheave,orexistsomewherebetweeniftheycomebacktosomeformof
permanentunlivingexistencePathofUndeadshouldcoverthem.Now,saintly
visitationisaodditydependingonwhatyouconsiderasaintandhowyou
perceivevisionsfromyourgod(littlegorbigG).AssumingRomanCatholic
belief,visitationsfromsaintsismorelikeavisionthanaactualspirityoucan
keepaway.Thatsaid,theyhavenoearthlyshacklessoI'dprobablytreatthem
likeIwouldanyotherspirit(ifyoucanaffectthematall!)eventhoughthey
wereoncelivinghumans.Thisisbecausetheyareessentiallypuresoulandhave
passedontotheirnextlife.Alotofthisedgecasesyouguysarebringingupis
goingtobedependentonthecampaignanditsGM,thatisIcanonlysay"I'ddo
this"or"I'ddothat."It'salldependentonthecosmologyofthesettingandthe
GMcanhappilysay"Allspiritbeings,oncelivingorotherwiseareaffectedby
PathofSpirit,"butifyoudothatyougottolettheplayersknowaheadoftime
andinsomecases(necromancers)it'sgoingtomakethecharactermore
expensivetocreate.
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