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UNITED STATES TAX COURT - TRIAL

ESTATE (OF MICHAEL J. JACKSON DECEASED)

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EXECUTORS: JOHN G. BRANCA. AND JOHN MCCLAIN

COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE (IRS)

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February 16th 2017

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Presiding Judge Mark V. Holmes

Jacksons estate is represented by Avram Salkin, Charles Paul Rettig, Steven Richard Toscher, R
obert S. Horwitz, Edward M. Robbins Jr., Sharyn M. Fisk and Lacey E. Strachan of Hochman Sa

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lkin Rettig Toscher & Perez PC, Paul Gordon Hoffman, Jeryll S. Cohen and Loretta Siciliano of
Hoffman Sabban & Watenmaker and Howard L. Weitzman of Kinsella Weitzman Iser Kump &
Aldisert LLP. ae
The
IRS is represented by its attorneys Donna F. Herbert, Malone Camp, Sebastian Voth, Jordan Mus
en and Laura Mullin.
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Tohme Tohme
MJ Manager
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Judge Holmes: Anything before we begin?

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Mr. Toscher: Yes, Your Honor.

A. couple of housekeeping matters, we'll start with, Mr. Camp.

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Mr. Camp: I believe petitioner was wanting clarification on the documents in the first
stipulation. And for everyone's clarification, it was our understanding that the first stip ... the

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documents in the first stip were admitted into evidence subject to petitioner's reserved relevancy
objection.

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Judge Holmes: Yes.

Mr. Camp: Yes.


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Judge Holmes: And ...
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Mr. Camp: And I ... and just ...


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Judge Holmes: And the deal is that the proponent of those exhibits has to move for their
admission, and then we can fight about it at that time.

Mr. Toscher: So ...


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Judge Holmes: So they're lodged. They're not quite admitted. They're lodged.
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Mr. Toscher: Okay. They're ... even the ones only subject to the relevancy objections, Your
Honor?
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Judge Holmes: Yes, because there's an objection to them on something other than hearsay
grounds.
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Mr. Toscher: Okay.

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Judge Holmes: So they're regarded as authentic, we got copies, but if there's a relevancy
objection somebody has to move for their admission.

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Mr. Toscher: Okay. So I think both of our understandings, it was a little ... we were ...

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Judge Holmes: Yeah.

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Mr. Toscher: And that's what ...

Judge Holmes: No, I understand that. ae


Mr. Toscher: Okay.
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Mr. Camp: And then, so I believe petitioners indicated the categories to which they had a
relevancy objection, and I have not necessarily received specific ...
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Judge Holmes: Numbers?

Mr. Camp: ... exhibit numbering yet.


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Judge Holmes: That's what you need.


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Mr. Camp: That's what I need, yes, Your Honor.


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Mr. Toscher: And, Your Honor, we've been moving very fast when we set the numbers. Here's
what I would propose, as to give Mr. Malone, or Mr. Camp, excuse me.
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Mr. Camp: That's fine, Steve.

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Mr. Weitzman: Unless you were working for him. Then I can be Mr. Malone.

Mr. Toscher: The ... as long as we can reserve that before we are considered to ... technically
resting our case. I think the only change ... and we'll go through the exhibits ... is we discussed

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with the government, and on, I guess, four of their exhibits ... you have those, right? You can ...

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Mr. Camp: You ... are you talking about four of your exhibits?

Mr. Toscher: Yes.

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Mr. Camp: Two nineteen through 223-P, we had reserved authenticity and hearsay objections.
We will now stipulate to those documents so that we ... respondent is removing his objection to
those documents.
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Judge Holmes: Note those, Ms. Wood, in the minutes.

Mr. Toscher: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. And we'll go through ... and we have a list of the
specific exhibits, but if you can give us a little time and Mr. ... we can go through it. I don't know
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if we want to do it right this second.

Judge Holmes: Just do it before we close next week though.

Mr. Toscher: Okay. That's fine, Your Honor. One other item, Your Honor, and I've told the
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government I'm going to raise this with the Court, there has been some suggestion regarding how
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the three remaining assets that are at issue in the proceeding should be valued, but more
specifically, some of the comments made as to whether these assets should be combined or
valued separately. And we've sort of been thinking about these statements, and we ... and I
think ... I would ask the Court to consider where we are right now and maybe have a dialogue on
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it.
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Judge Holmes: Oh, yes, yes. In my little ongoing list of things that I was going to tell you at the
very end that I would like in briefs, my concern in this area is with the Ahmanson Curry line of
cases, where you have different classes of stock. And if you combine them they're way more

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valuable than if you just aggregate them. And there is an analogy here to the rights of publicity
and rights to master recordings, et cetera, et cetera. At the same time, in those cases, there wasn't
the sort of piecemeal settlement.

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Mr. Toscher: Correct.

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Judge Holmes: So you know ...

Mr. Toscher: Okay. The Court is wired into it.

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Judge Holmes: ... it's difficult. ae
Mr. Toscher: And I appreciate that.
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Judge Holmes: It's not an obvious answer, so.

Mr. Toscher: No. And we won't get into ... and I think some of it is valuable for briefing, but you
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know, we start from the point, separate legally distinct assets ...

Judge Holmes: Right. That's what the Regulation says.

Mr. Toscher: Oh. Separate ...


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Judge Holmes: That's how you're reporting. I get that.


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Mr. Toscher: Okay. But valued on the return, and every ... all the experts have valued them
separately and what I'm suggesting is before we technically have to close, if for some reason ...
nobody has valued these together, but if the Court's considering to value them together ... no, I
wish ...
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Judge Holmes: Well, I mean, how would I do it without any evidence, that's the question.

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Mr. Toscher: I don't think you can do it, but if the Court's going to do it we see we're prejudiced
if we don't get an expert. We don't think it's going to change the value at all, based upon our
ruminations but ...

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Judge Holmes: We're ... oh ... oh. There is no jury here, so we can talk about this a little bit
more. In the case of stock of different classes where some is voting and some not voting, and

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that's the Ahmanson Curry type cases, control of the corporation is an issue. And if you control
both the voting and nonvoting stock, those courts always said look at it as in the hands of the
decedent at the moment of death rather than split up and thus less valuable in its aggregate to the

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people who benefited from the estate at the end. If that's the case here, then conceivably what I
should look at is what the estate was like in the hands of Mr. Jackson, which means in the hands
of Mr. Branca and Mr. McClain at the moment of death, where they were able to take off his
intellectual property rights and use them to generate income as, you know, we've learned they
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were able to. However, we've also learned that Mr. Jackson has encumbrances on all of these. So
I understand why you presented the case you did, plus there's the regulation that says you have to
list all of the items on the return separately. So it's out there, and the way I think it would turn up,
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without prejudging the case at all, one argument could be that to the extent that you are not able
to reach valuation compromises on particular items of property, that incremental value of
synergies of all these would be allocated to that which remains to be valued. Now, you're
obviously aware of this because you've been presenting testimony, both sides, about whether
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that's a good argument or a bad argument to make. But that's what we'll be briefing about, and
what I would be reading the briefs about after the trial is over. But that's where this might be
going.

Mr. Toscher: Right. And I think the Court recognizes this is a little, sort of vague.
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Judge Holmes: Yes.


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Mr. Toscher: I mean, I ...


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Judge Holmes: It is.


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Mr. Toscher: We've looked at Curry and Ahmanson and we've ...

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Judge Holmes: Of course.

Mr. Toscher: ... and we have our view and we'll dialogue with the Court.

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Judge Holmes: Yeah.

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Mr. Toscher: But I guess what I'm saying is that if there is an issue of combining these, one, I
think from a procedural and an estoppel point of view, it cannot be done.

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Judge Holmes: That ... plus, you have a burden of proof argument which I now understand the
strategic proportions of. This is the next ...
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Mr. Toscher: That was probably a happenstance. But ...
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Judge Holmes: Okay.

Mr. Toscher: Because we ... but we were just following along the 9th Circuit ...
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Judge Holmes: Yes, there is that too.

Mr. Toscher: But I just ... I want ... I think I want to get ... have the Court give it some
consideration, make my record here that before we technically close ... I don't want to close until
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we get the opportunity because this is a totally ... I appreciate the issues, but that's the point.
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Judge Holmes: Yeah. I mean, there's ... we were looking and you guys have been looking for
years for cases that were similar to this one in more precise ways. There weren't. So you know ...
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Mr. Toscher: Right. This is not a ... I mean I would just say for the record because I can't help
myself, this is not a stock case where things are being separated to lower the value. This is the
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actual ... this is the ... it's not the hypothetical bifurcation. It's the hypothetical unification to
come up with something. But that's what ... I'm not going to argue with the Court right now, but I
have given it thought.

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Judge Holmes: Yeah.

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Ms Cohen. Your Honor, I have a question.

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Judge Holmes: Oh sure.

Ms Cohen. I didn't understand what you said, something about if we can't reach valuation

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compromise on the assets then we would look at the ... what's not included and treat it as synergy
...
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Judge Holmes: Well, yeah, because one way of looking at this, and I'm sure Mr. Camp and his
team - - or Ms. Herbert and her team have looked at this. I just look at the person who sitting
closest to the center, Mr. Camp. Ms. Herbert and her team have looked at this, is to say, okay. We
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were able to compromise the specific asset values of

A. through X, but we weren't on Y and Z. Therefore, any residual value from the synergies of
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A. through Z can be allocated, or should be allocated, to Y and Z, the remaining unagreed assets.
I ... who knows.

Ms Cohen. Your Honor, I don't ... I still don't understand. Are you suggesting that to the extent
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that we haven't ... you're ... when you say compromise, you're talking about our settlement with
the IRS?
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Judge Holmes: Yeah. Well, to use a specific example here, assuming, contrary to fact, that the
deal was in place at the time of death to do the Cirque du Soleil show, and I know that there are
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subsequent event issues there. Assume that Mr. Jackson had that in place at the time. That
combined use ... I'll assume that combined use of master recordings, his composer rights, and use
of his name and likeness. He settles master recordings and use of his composer rights. But if you
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look at the value just of Cirque du Soleil and you try to allocate it between those two ... those
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three items of assets, you know, I'm getting paid 200 million for the Cirque du Soleil, I'm settling
my ... the amount attributable to the master recordings at 100 million, the value of the remaining
recordings to 50 million and, you know, if I look at it, my name and likeness isn't really worth 50

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million but the whole deal is worth 50 million so shouldn't I allocate the 50 million to my name
and likeness as the one remaining assent whose value is unagreed.

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Mr. Toscher: Yeah, but ...

Ms Cohen. Your Honor, that's not the way the valuations were done.

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Judge Holmes: I understand ... no, I understand that. I'm just ...

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Ms Cohen. That is absolutely not the way it was done.
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Judge Holmes: No, I understand. I understand.
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Ms Cohen. But I ...

Judge Holmes: It's an illustration of one way that this could go.
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Ms Cohen. I understand, but it's not the way this was done.

Judge Holmes: I ... it certainly wasn't. I've got all these reports ...
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Ms Cohen. And all the appraisers ...


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Judge Holmes: ... provided by ...


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Ms Cohen. ... the appraisers valued the master recordings without taking into account specific
deals.
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Judge Holmes: Right.

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Ms Cohen. But their spike and their projection of what the income would do took into account
events like Cirque. Honestly, Your Honor, I don't know ...

Judge Holmes: There you go.

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Ms Cohen. ... how you extrapolate from the master recordings or from the Cirque show the

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value that was already included in the master recordings that were settled.

Judge Holmes: And that's the argument I would expect to see in the ... and impossibility of

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course is a reasonable argument, if you can show it, so.

Ms Cohen. And Your Honor, I want to say something else.


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Judge Holmes: Yeah.
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Ms Cohen. Synergy has never been raised before, in the audit, in appeals, in this litigation.
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Judge Holmes: Well, that's a good argument. too. It's called a procedural argument.

Ms Cohen. Your Honor, the ... it's actually a due process argument. The only ... the first time it
came up, Your Honor, is when we discovered that Mr. Anson included in his appraisal report
income from assets that did not belong to the asset he was valuing, and we raised it. And all ...
that's a mistake. That's not synergy. He didn't say synergy.
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Judge Holmes: Right. And I expect you to bring that out ...
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Ms Cohen. He made a mistake.

Judge Holmes: ... in cross-examination, so.


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Mr. Weitzman: Can I just say ...

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Ms Cohen. Yes.

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Mr. Weitzman: Synergy, if I recall, was raised by you.

Judge Holmes: Yes.

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Mr. Weitzman: Is my recollection.

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Judge Holmes: Yeah. But I don't get ...

Mr. Weitzman: So my ...


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Judge Holmes: ... to raise the issues.

Mr. Weitzman: Well, I understand. But ...


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Judge Holmes: Usually.

Mr. Weitzman: But there are some limitations ...


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Judge Holmes: Yes, there are. There really are.


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Mr. Weitzman: ... as I see it. And here's the limitations that concern me because I think it
more ... I think of a trial approach and what needs to be done for review in courts.
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Judge Holmes: Mm-hmm.


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Mr. Weitzman: Expert opinion should have been sought and presented to the Court if the Court
was going to, in effect, change ...

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Judge Holmes: Oh, the Court is not going to do this. The Court has raised it, and it will ask the
questions of the witnesses, but ... and based on the Ahmanson Curry line of cases, your job
would then be to persuade me that that analogy is inappropriate in a case law involving

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intellectual property, where most of the issues, thank heavens, were settled. And as you point out,
the items are required by the regulations to be listed and valued on the return.

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Mr. Weitzman: Well we can do that. You just have to accept the argument.

Judge Holmes: Yeah. I mean, you're going to be doing that, of course. And, you know, you don't

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to be in a position of arguing this in the middle of trial ...

Mr. Weitzman: Right.


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Judge Holmes: ... so let's bear that in mind. But there are also these cases that say that the statute
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says you have to value the property of the estate. So it may be the case that, in writing the
opinion at the trial level, I would have to say this is an interesting question, but it's just not the
way the parties presented it. That's fair, too, and that helps of course in dealing with review.
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Mr. Weitzman: So to me the issue becomes if the government makes that argument in briefing
because unfortunately, at least for me, we don't have closing arguments, which I always think is
the fun part in the trial process ... raise that probably, you know, for the first time kind of playing
off what Your Honor said.
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Judge Holmes: Yeah.


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Mr. Weitzman: And that there were no experts that opined and gave the Court guidance ...
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Judge Holmes: Then they would have to persuade me about the 9th Circuit precedent on burden
of proof, and you would probably be persuading me and, like, that's nice in theory, but it's just
not the way the case was tried.
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Ms Cohen. But this is not just a legal issue. It's also not the way we did our valuations, and if
that is ...

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Judge Holmes: Yes, but that becomes ... right. No, I understand that Ms. Cohen, but that is a
legal issue in that the parties are allowed to frame the case the way they want it, and if the Judge

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happens to notice something interesting, he can put it in a footnote and move on.

Ms Cohen. Well, if it's only a footnote, Your Honor, of course Your Honor can do that. I just

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want to make sure that our rights are not prejudiced ...

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Judge Holmes: No, of course not. I understand.

Ms Cohen. ... because they would be prejudiced if there was, all of a sudden, an argument made
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by the government, well, you have to apply ...

Judge Holmes: That's why we ...


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Ms Cohen. ... synergy to these assets.


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Judge Holmes: ... you've had ... no. And I, you know, this is ... at some level, of course, I
recognize that lawyers in every case, especially a large case like this one, know it better than I
do. So I may bring some interesting questions to bear, but in the end, I recognize that the lawyers
have framed case and the issues to be resolved.
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Mr. Weitzman: So for me, I just didn't want people that are reviewing the Court, if this ever gets
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there, saying, well, you know what, you never raised it. You should have raised it, maybe they
would have taken a time out, and a recess and you could have called an expert.

Judge Holmes: Oh, heavens no. The trial date is ... was established. This is it, so.
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Mr. Weitzman: So whoever might be ...


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Judge Holmes: At least that's what I ...

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Mr. Weitzman: ... reading this, I didn't wave that issue.

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Judge Holmes: Yeah. There you go.

Mr. Camp: Who's reading ... oh. In the future.

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Ms Cohen. Thank you.

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Judge Holmes: This is it. This is really it, yes. Oh.

Ms Cohen. No pun intended.


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Judge Holmes: That last one, it was. All right.

Mr. Toscher: Okay. So for the record, just we're saying ...
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Judge Holmes: Yeah. You've got your witnesses, you've got your issues ...

Mr. Toscher: We'd be prejudiced and if the Court were to go that way we would want to be able
to have the opportunity to present additional expert testimony.
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Judge Holmes: And I'm sure you will remind me in the post trial briefs of this dialogue.

Mr. Toscher: Constantly. Thank you, Your Honor.


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Judge Holmes: Fair enough.


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Mr. Camp: Thank you.

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Judge Holmes: With that, it is Ms. Herbert's turn.

Mr. Voth: And the respondent calls Tohme Tohme as its witness.

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TOHME TOHME sworn in.

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Court Clerk: You may be seated. If you would please state your name and address for the
record.

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A. Tohme Tohme, .

Court Clerk: Thank you.


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Mr. Voth: May I proceed, Your Honor?
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Judge Holmes: Absolutely.


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DIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr. Voth:
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Q. Can you give us a general overview of your business background, please?


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A. I am in the ... in the private equity business.


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Q. Could you speak up a little bit, please?

A. Yeah.
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Q. Thank you.

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A. Yeah, I work in the private equity business. I work in the investment world. I work in the
development of project. I worked with Michael Jackson.

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Q. What does it mean that you worked in the private equity business?

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A. I am part of a private equity firm and am the managing director of it.

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Q. Okay. And what do you do with respect to private equity? What does that mean? Can you
help us understand?

A. We raise fund, and we buy company, we sell company, we build project.


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Q. What type of projects, for example?
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A. Hotel, you know development project, hotel, shopping malls, et cetera.


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Q. Okay. Where did you grow up?

A. In the United States, in Los Angeles.


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Q. Since you were born?


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A. No. I came in ... I was 14 years old.


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Q. Okay. And where did you live before coming to the United States?

A. I lived in Beirut, Lebanon.


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Q. Okay. All right. Let's talk about your first introduction to Michael Jackson. Did you know
Michael Jackson when he was alive?

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A. Yes.

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Q. How did you know him?

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A. I met him long time ago. And ... but later in time when he returned from Bahrain, after the
trial of the molestation, his brother Jermaine came to my house and told me that Michael wants
to see me while he was residing in Las Vegas.

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Q. Okay. So let's step back. Let's go to the first time that you met Michael Jackson. Can you
describe those circumstances?
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A. I can't remember exactly how I met him, but I met him in a function, and then I visited
Neverland a few times. And then I didn't see him or hear from him.
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Q. How did visiting Neverland come about?


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A. Well, it happened that at that time O.J. Simpson, he was my neighbor, and his son and my son,
they were schoolmate. And O.J. at that time, he was ... he has a close relationship with Michael
Jackson, so he took ... he used to take his son to Neverland. And a couple of times, three times,
he took my son with him, and this is how I happened to go to Santa Barbara.
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Q. All right. So then you mentioned that you met with Michael Jackson eventually. Can you
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describe the next time that you met with him? When he came to ... was this around 2008?

A. Around 2008, yes, in 2008.


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Q. Okay. Can you describe the circumstances surrounding that other meeting with Michael
Jackson?
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A. Well, as I mentioned earlier, his brother Jermaine came to me and he said Michael wants to
see you, and he's having problem with Neverland. They're going to foreclose on it, and please,

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please he wants to see you to see if you can help him save Neverland. So after a couple of visits,
I decided to go with Jermaine to Las Vegas. So he came to my house and he picked me up and he
drove to Las Vegas and we went ... I saw Michael Jackson.

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Q. All right. So you mentioned Jermaine Jackson. How did you know Jermaine Jackson?

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A. I really forgot how I met Jermaine.

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Q. Okay.

A. But I can't remember exactly how I met Jermaine.


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Q. Do you remember where you met him?
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A. No.

Q. Was ... did he live in your neighborhood?


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A. Well, he was living in Brentwood where I live. I reside in Brentwood, but he lived there for a
short time. But I don't think I ran into him while he was living in Brentwood. Somewhere I met
Jermaine, and I can't remember where, and I didn't see him until he came to my house that day
asking me to go see Michael Jackson.
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Q. And what is your understanding as to why he reached out to you during that time?

A. I was a consultant with Colony Capital and project partner with them, and he came to me to
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see if I can speak to Colony to buy the note on the ranch before they foreclose on it.

Q. What is Colony Capital?


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A. It's a private equity company.

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Q. And what was your relationship with Colony Capital?

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A. I was a consulting, and also I was project partner. Like if I bring a project, you know, I will
get a piece of it.

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Q. Can you describe what type of projects you were involved in with Colony Capital?

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A. Well, we were involved, like we try to ... I brought a project to buy Tam Oil. There is a
company called Tam Oil in Libya at that time, and they own about five, 6000 gas stations around
Europe.
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Judge Holmes: This is Eugene Tamaros' company?
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A. I'm sorry?

Judge Holmes: This is Eugene Tamaros' company?


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A. No. This is Tom Barrack's company.

Judge Holmes: Oh. Go ahead.


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Mr. Voth:
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A. So we bought that ... so we tried to purchase that company from Libya, and we worked on it
and we signed the deal. And then ... but at the end Gaddafi, at that time, decided not to sell it.
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And then we had some project in Dubai, some project in Morocco, a project called Tagazout in
Morocco to build about six hotels.
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Q. Okay. All right. So you've mentioned different countries, can you describe some of the
projects that you've worked on overseas, with or without Colony Capital?

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A. Well, I worked on a couple of projects, hotel projects in Beirut. I worked on ... I raised some
fund for Colony from Abu Dhabi ... from ADIA, Abu Dhabi Investment Authority, and I was
working on a project in Morocco also to build a resort there, in a place called Chillat, and it

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didn't work out.

Q. Were most of your projects in the Middle East?

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A. Well, in the Middle East and in Europe, and Southeast Asia. Also I was involved in a coal
mine. We own a coal mine in China, in inner Mongolia.

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Q. Can you elaborate a little bit on those projects?
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A. Well, we ...
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Mr. Weitzman: I'm just going to object on relevance in terms of elaborating on the projects.

Judge Holmes: Well, he's ... I'll allow this in the background. Go ahead.
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A. Sorry?

Mr. Voth:
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Q. Can you elaborate on some of the projects that you were describing, I think, in Southeast
Asia?
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A. Well, I also worked on some project in Brunei, where they have a river there. We had a
technology company out of Houston. They have a river that was really polluted from the oil, and
so we brought a company there to clean it. I was a consultant with them, for Brunei, for almost
15 years, and I've done other various things, you know.
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Q. Okay. All right. At some point you mentioned the name Tom Barrack. Can you tell us who he
is?

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A. He's the chairman of Colony Capital and the founder of Colony Capital.

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Q. And how do you know him?

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A. Well, he's a Lebanese guy. I've known Tom for many years. He's like a brother to me.

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Q. All right. Let's go back to when Jermaine asked for your help. So you mentioned you went
back to Las Vegas to meet with Michael Jackson. Can you just slowly take us step-by-step as to
what happened with respect to those ... that meeting?
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A. Well, as I said earlier, Jermaine came and picked me up from my house in Brentwood and he
drove to Las Vegas. And we went to a place on Palomino Road in Las Vegas. It's an old, like a
Spanish villa. And this is when I saw Michael for the first time for ... after many years. And so
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we sat, and we hugged, we this and that, and then he told me I need your help, please, to talk to
Colony to save Neverland for me because it would be ...
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Q. Stop right there. Who told you that?

A. Michael Jackson.

Q. Okay. All right. So please proceed describing further this meeting.


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A. And so I told him, you know, I don't know, I can try and see what happen and stayed there a
few hours with him. And then we left I think the following day and I went and I spoke to Tom
Barrack. And Tom Barrack said no, I don't want to do it. I don't want to be involved in this at this
time. I do ... as you know we do business overseas with different people, and it was because of
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the molestation at that time. Then I suggest to him, I said, why don't you meet Michael. He never
met Michael before. I said, why don't you try to meet him and see, listen to him. Maybe you can
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change your mind. So in any case, I ... he agreed with me and then I flew back to Las Vegas with
Tom, and we went and saw Michael. And after he saw Michael ...

n.c
Q. He, being Tom Barrack?

A. Tom Barrack. And he was very impressed by Michael, his intelligent, and his knowledge of

so
many area, and so he said okay, I'll do it. I'm going to try ... I'll buy the note from Fortress.

ck
Q. And was that the subject of the meeting between ... with respect to Neverland, was that the
subject of the meeting between ...

lJa
A. This is the only subject for the meeting, in regard to Neverland.

Q. Okay. And so what happened next?


ae
A. After that, we came back to L
ich

A. and then Colony and, you know, their attorney ... they were ... they start gathering information
in regard to the note, and I believe at that time, Tom Barrack knew the head of Fortress, and they
spoke to him and he decided to buy the note. And then he bought the note and we saved
mM

Neverland from foreclosure.

Q. Now, with respect to Neverland, did you contact anybody else?

A. Yes. I contacted several people before I spoke to Tom. And after Tom said he doesn't want to
a

do it, I contacted a couple of individual, and they both declined.


Te

Q. All right. Let's move on a little bit more into actually working with Michael Jackson. All
right. So what happened after the Neverland deal with Colony Capital?
w.

A. What do you mean by what happened?


ww
om
Q. Can you describe, in terms of time, did you have any further meetings with Michael Jackson?

n.c
A. Oh yes. I ... after that we met several times. I mean, I used to ... as you know, he was living in
Las Vegas, and I was living in Los Angeles, so every time I have to see him I has to travel, fly
there to see him. And I was seeing him on an almost, not a daily basis, but at least once, twice a
week when he was in Las Vegas. And then we had ... after Colony bought the note, we had

so
meeting to discuss how we can help Michael.

Q. And ... stop right there. And by we, who are you referring to?

ck
A. I'm referring to Tom Barrack, referring to David Dunn. We brought David Dunn from
Washington. He was working with Michael. And we brought Steve Mortensen from Yucaipa. He

lJa
was taking care of Michael affair at that time, him, and Ron Burkle, and we had a meeting in
regard to that issue, how we can help Michael move out of his debts.
ae
Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, if I might inquire through the Court, do we have a time and date,
just an idea?
ich

Judge Holmes: I think that's an excellent question. Can you get some sort of timeline here?

Mr. Voth: Sure. That's a great suggestion, Mr. Weitzman, thank you.
mM

Mr. Weitzman: You're welcome.

Mr. Voth:
a
Te

Q. What ... if you recall, what year did this meeting take place that ... when you started having
subsequent meetings with Michael Jackson as you tried to help him?
w.

A. 2008.

Q. And approximately what month?


ww
om
A. I don't ... I can't really recall the exact date ... April or May. I can't recall.

n.c
Q. So April or May of 2008?

so
A. 2008, yes.

Q. Okay.

ck
A. I think. I'm not sure.

lJa
Q. Okay. So you've been describing these meetings where you're trying to figure out how to help
Michael Jackson. How ... so what happened next? Did you eventually ...
ae
A. Well, after that, we decided to have a meeting, a very broad meeting that took place also in
Las Vegas with Tom Barrack and three, four guys from Colony. We met at the Fertita Brothers
ich
office, North ... in North Las Vegas or somewhere. And Michael was there, I was there, Tom
Barrack and a few other people. We were trying to see if we ... they were trying to see if ... how
we can engage Michael in some performance or something to generate money for him.
mM

Q. Did you become ... were you his manager at this time?

A. At that time, it wasn't ... he asked me, but there was nothing in writing at that time.
a

Q. Okay. So who proposed that you should be his manager?


Te

A. Michael himself.
w.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor. Your Honor, may I approach the clerk to have a document
marked for the identification?
ww
om
Judge Holmes: You may.

n.c
Court Clerk: Exhibit 672-R is marked for identification

Mr. Voth: May I ask the clerk to provide a copy to the witness, if she hasn't already. Thank you.

so
Mr. Voth:

ck
Q. Just please take a moment to review this document marked for identification as 672-R, please.
Just briefly take a look and let me know when you're done.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Are these marked as one? These are three separate documents. Are you marking
them as one exhibit or three separate exhibits?
ae
Mr. Voth: Right. So we have three related agreements that are being marked as one exhibit.
ich
Mr. Weitzman: Okay. But they're not really related.

Mr. Voth: Okay. So we have three agreements with respect to Tohme but ... may I answer Mr.
mM

Weitzman's questions, Your Honor?

Judge Holmes: Sure.

Mr. Voth: Okay.


a
Te

Judge Holmes: I believe he's kind of objecting.

Mr. Weitzman: Well I ...


w.

Judge Holmes: I think it ... point of order ... a point of order.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: To your point, I've never done this before. Point of order. Since Robert ... what
is it Roberts ...

n.c
Mr. Toscher: Roberts Rules of Order.

so
Mr. Weitzman: Right. These are ... I'm very familiar with these documents because they are part
of the litigation that the estate has with Mr. Tohme, and they're three separate documents with
three separate purposes and ...

ck
Judge Holmes: At least two separate dates.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: ... what I'm objecting ... pardon me? Yes.
ae
Judge Holmes: But you want them in as a united exhibit for convenience's sake or something?
ich
Mr. Voth: It's only for convenience, Your Honor, and ...

Mr. Weitzman: Okay.


mM

Judge Holmes: Desegregate on cross.

Mr. Voth: These documents are ... and also these documents are part of ... are pages of currently,
Exhibit 294-J, so just ... it would just ...
a
Te

Judge Holmes: Whatever. You get to call them ...

Mr. Voth: ... for the convenience of the parties ...


w.

Judge Holmes: You get to call them whatever you want.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: Yeah. So it comes in under the related exception again.

n.c
Judge Holmes: There you go. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth:

so
Q. All right. So let's take a look at the first document with the date. It's May 2nd, 2008. Are you
there?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Okay. And it's about ... about five pages including Schedule

A. and Schedule B.
ae
A. Yes.
ich

Q. So ... all right. Do you recognize this document?


mM

A. Yes.

Q. What is it?
a

A. It's a management agreement, a service agreement, and indemnity agreement.


Te

Q. So I'm only asking you about the first one ... the first five pages relating to the agreement
dated May 2nd, 2008.
w.

A. Okay.
ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. The first five pages related to the May 2nd and the July 2nd
document, so they are ... he's referring to the first ... I just want the record clear. If he's referring
to the first five pages should we ...

n.c
Mr. Voth: Actually, no. You're correct. All right. So let's ...

so
A. Okay.

ck
Judge Holmes: Thank you, Mr. Weitzman. Go ahead Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth: Thank you again, Mr. Weitzman.

lJa
Mr. Voth:
Q. Looking at Exhibit 672 marked for identification, take a look at the first two pages. Okay.
ae
A. Yes.
ich

Q. Okay. Do you recognize the first two pages of this document marked for identification as 672-
R?
mM

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.
a

Mr. Weitzman: And then, Your Honor, for the record, there's a redaction on the bottom right
Te

hand, which I've not seen on this document before so ...

Mr. Voth: So respondent can explain that, Your Honor. And if necessary we can even pull up the
w.

Exhibit ...

Mr. Weitzman: But I was going to ask the Court to ask you ...
ww
om
Judge Holmes: Can you explain it, Mr. Voth?

n.c
Mr. Voth: Respondent did this redaction. This is a document that has been marked already as
Exhibit 294-J, and it has the pages 29 through 37. So just to avoid any confusion, Respondent
just redacted out those page numbers.

so
Judge Holmes: Perfectly reasonably, Mr. Voth. Go ahead.

ck
Mr. Voth:

lJa
Q. All right. Let's go to Page 2 of exhibit - - of this May 2nd, 2008 agreement. Is that your
signature on Page 2?

A. Yes.
ae
ich
Q. Okay. All right, let's move on to the services agreement. Do you recognize the document
entitled services agreement?

A. Yes, sir.
mM

Q. What is it?

A. It's a agreement between me and Michael Jackson in regard to my services.


a
Te

Q. And if we go to Page 3 of the services agreement, is that your signature on Page 3 of the
services agreement?
w.

A. Yes.
ww
om
Q. Now, if we look at the services agreement - - and please go to Article 2, 2.1 ... it mentions a
15 percent commission there. Do you see that? So we're at the first page of the services
agreement, Article 2.1.

n.c
A. Yes.

so
Q. Did you come up with this 15 percent commission?

ck
A. No. Peter Lopez came up with it because Michael, at that time, he offered me 50 percent, and
I refused. And he told me we would go 50/50 in anything we do together, and I said no I can't do
that. And then we checked ... I checked with Peter. I told Peter and Peter said 15 percent is
common.

lJa
Q. Okay. Okay. So let's move on to the last document of Exhibit 672-R marked for identification
entitled Indemnity Agreement. Do you recognize this document?
ae
A. Yes.
ich

Q. What is it?
mM

A. It's an indemnity agreement.

Q. Okay. So you're familiar with it?

A. Yes.
a
Te

Q. And is that your signature on the last page of the indemnity agreement?
w.

A. Yes, sir.
ww
om
Q. So we've been talking about these three different agreements. Did you draft these three
agreements?

n.c
A. No, the attorneys did.

Q. And by the attorneys did, who are you referring to?

so
A. Dennis Hawk, Peter Lopez, and Tom McClain.

ck
Mr. Voth: Your Honor, Respondent moves the document marked for identification as 672-R be
admitted into evidence.

lJa
Judge Holmes: It's admitted. ae
Mr. Weitzman: Just for the record, I don't have any objection.
ich
Mr. Voth:

Q. All right. So we've kind of been talking about how you became Michael Jackson's manager.
mM

Now, did you have any prior experience representing artists?

A. No.

Q. No. All right. And now that you've formally started representing Michael Jackson, can you ...
a

since we're here looking at the Exhibit 672-R in May of 2008, can you walk us through as to
Te

what happened next with your relationship with Michael Jackson?

Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, my objection would be vague and ambiguous now that we're
w.

formally beginning. I just am looking for a date and time.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Calls for a myriad of response as well. But do it in baby steps ...
ww
om
Mr. Voth: Sure. Okay.

n.c
Judge Holmes: ... dates or ... I guess.

so
Mr. Voth: Okay.

Mr. Voth:

ck
Q. So we're in May of 2008. Do you recall what happened next with respect to your

lJa
representation of Michael Jackson?

A. Well, I can't remember exactly what took place then, it's been almost 10 years. But what
happened is just we ... you know I try to clean house and I try to ...
ae
Q. Stop right there. What do you mean by clean house?
ich

A. Well, he was ... his life was in disarray, as far as I'm concerned, and he was around, you know,
people that he shouldn't be around. And he was acting ... doing some acts like with the mask,
with the wheelchair, with all these things and I told him that, you know, this is not the way to
mM

keep living. And I told him that there is a lot of rumors that he's dying and have some kind of
disease and all this and that. And I said to him, it's not a place for him to ... maybe I'm jumping
ahead, but I told him it's not a place for him to live in Las Vegas, and he should move back to
Los Angeles and because this is where all the action is happening for this kind of business.
a

Q. Okay. So you mentioned that here were certain people, if I understood you correctly, that
Te

shouldn't be around him. Can you explain that further, please?

A. Well, I think, you know, there was some ... a lot of people like from the Nation of Islam at that
time with him and all of his security and everything that I felt like he was kind of controlled or
w.

something. And that's why I told him that he should move on and change the way he's living.
ww

Q. And you mentioned a wheelchair and a mask. Can you further explain that for us, please?
om
A. Well, when I first met him I saw that he has a bandage around his ankle, and he said he's, you
know, he hurt his leg or something. And maybe he was using it as an excuse to be in the

n.c
wheelchair. I don't know what was it. Maybe he want, you know, I mean Michael was wounded
from the ... what happened to him in Santa Barbara with the ... in regard to the child molestation.
Maybe he wants people to feel sorry for him or some ... I really don't know. But I told him this is
not an issue as everyone knows from the media, he used to wear a mask and this and that. So I

so
work hard on it, and I convinced him to change his habit.

ck
Q. What do you mean by change his habit?

A. Abandon the wheelchair, remove the mask, get back, you know, to a normal life and to move

lJa
out of Las Vegas and try to get back to work.

Q. All right. So let's go back briefly to ... well, we're in 2008. Was Michael Jackson working
with any other attorneys or advisors?
ae
A. At that time, the only person I know that he was involved with is Peter Lopez, then a name
ich
came to me at that time, Greg Cross, and David Dunn and McMillan. I forgot his first name.

Q. Okay. Let's take this ...


mM

A. Lionel McMillan. McMillan.

Mr. Weitzman: Londell.


a
Te

A. Yeah.

Mr. Weitzman: Londell.


w.

Judge Holmes: Londell?


ww
om
A. Londell McMillan.

n.c
Mr. Voth:

Q. Who is Peter Lopez?

so
A. Peter Lopez, he was an entertainment attorney. He worked with Michael for, as far as I know,
for a few years, and he was still hanging around Michael when I came in in the picture, and ...

ck
even though he wasn't getting paid at that time.

Q. And it ... is he still with us?

lJa
A. No, he passed away. ae
Q. And you mentioned David Dunn. Can you elaborate who this person was?
ich
A. Well, David Dunn was a ... I think he was a banker. Also he's an attorney. And he was working
on ... with Michael Jackson and David Cross and Michael wants him to be involved and at later
date, at the advice of Michael, we ask him to audit Sony.
mM

Q. Why was that?

A. Because Michael felt that that Sony was cheating him, and they were not paying him what
they owed him.
a
Te

Q. And what is your understanding as to the basis of that allegation?

A. I have no idea really. I didn't know. He didn't tell me. But he said to me, where is my money?
w.

They stole my money. They're taking my money, I want my money, and I want to audit Sony.

Q. And did you take any steps to audit Sony?


ww
om
A. Well, I called David Dunn, and I told him that Michael wants to audit Sony. And he started, I
think, by approaching Sony and talking to Martin Bandier, at that time, and immediately every ...

n.c
a lot of things came up. And Bandier called it a witch hunt and everybody start attacking me then
because they thought it's my idea. It wasn't my idea. I was doing what Michael Jackson wanted.

so
Q. And who is Martin Bandier?

A. Martin Bandier, he is the head of Sony/ATV. He's in charge of the catalog.

ck
Q. We're still in 2008 and 2009. Did Michael Jackson have any plans to buy a house in Las

lJa
Vegas?

A. Yes.
ae
Q. Can you describe ...
ich

A. Well, there was a house that was built by Jefri Bokiah. He's the brother of the Sultan of
Brunei. And he built a very huge, expensive house in Las Vegas on the Spanish Trail. And
Michael happened to know about the house, and he looked at the house. And it was his dream to
mM

buy the house and turn it into, like, a museum for ... and like a Graceland. And so we tried to buy
the house for him.

Q. You mentioned someone from Brunei ...


a

A. Brunei.
Te

Q. Brunei. Are you familiar with anybody ... with the Sultan of Brunei?
w.

A. Yes, I am. And ...

Q. How are you familiar?


ww
om
A. Because I use to work with the Brunei about 25 years ago, and I was a consultant to His
Excellency, the Prime Minister, and the Minister of Education. And I used to go there almost

n.c
every two months.

Q. All right. Let's talk briefly about the Two Seas records litigation. Can you tell us about the

so
lawsuit that took place with Two Seas?

A. Well, what happened, as you know, after the situation in Santa Barbara, the trial was over, and

ck
he was acquitted, he decided to leave the United States. So through ... he went and flew to
Bahrain with the help of Jermaine, and he resided in Bahrain. And he was ... agreed ... he had
some agreement and contract with the son of the King to do, you know, a studio, to produce

lJa
some music, to do all kind of entertainment venue, and it was Sheik Abdullah. And at that time
he resided there for some times, and things went sour with him and Sheik Abdullah, and then he
left and he went to Ireland before he came back to the United States. And when Sheik Abdullah
found out that he left, he went crazy because when he left Bahrain Sheik Abdullah wasn't there.
ae
And then he demanded that he wants all the money he spent and he claimed he paid a lot of
money for him for the trial, for attorneys and this and that. So we tried to speak to Sheik
Abdullah, me and Michael, before he filed a lawsuit in London, but he would not take the call
ich
from Michael. So then he filed the lawsuit in the court in London, and then we solved it out of
court, and it cost about $5 million.

Q. Okay. And when you say "we solved it," who are you referring to?
mM

A. I'm referring to ... I spoke to his brother, and I spoke to others that have influence on Sheik
Abdullah and then his brother called him from Bahrain and told him to drop the lawsuit, they
don't want to go through it, and this is what happened. And his ... the father was very upset about
it, the King.
a
Te

Q. And what were they alleging in the lawsuit?

A. He's alleging that he spent a lot of money and he promised him ... and in the contract, I mean,
w.

he was ... he really ... Michael could not do anything without, I mean his ... everything that an
artist owned or have in regard to performance, in regard to book, in regard to anything, he really
tied him up really, really badly. So he could not do anything without settling the lawsuit with
ww

Sheik Abdullah.
om
Q. And what was the amount that the case was settled for?

n.c
A. Five million dollars.

so
Q. And where did those funds come from?

A. The first payment came from AEG, and they advance the money for Michael. And the second

ck
payment came ... I paid it on behalf of Michael from his fund that came from Sony.

lJa
Q. All right. So we're still in ... you'll have to help me here, but we're in 2008 or 2009.

A. 2008. ae
Q. Okay. And so I'd like to move on to the issues that took place with Julian's Auction.
ich

A. Right.

Q. Do you remember when that took place?


mM

A. What happen is when Colony Capital bought the note from Fortress, in the note it state that
everything in the Neverland belong to the holder of the note. And Michael can only take his
laptop, and that's it. He can't touch anything. And there is a document to that fact, so I had a big
problem with Colony in regard to this because they want to keep everything. So I went and I
a

spoke to Tom Barrack. I told him this is not the way to do it. I came to you to help him, not to,
you know, hurt him like this. So then I spoke to Paul Fuhrman, the attorney who was handling
Te

the transaction for Colony and Michael, and I told them this is not acceptable. So he wrote me
back, sent me an email, and he explained under the term that's it .. In any case, at the end we
decided that Colony just will not touch any of his stuff, and we were forced to remove all the
stuff from Neverland.
w.

Q. Was there a planned auction?


ww
om
A. Yes, after the fact.

n.c
Q. Okay.

so
A. So we went ... I'm talking to Michael, and he said, why don't we do an auction for the stuff
that I don't want. So I called the ... I forgot who I called, and who gave me the ... I don't know
how Julian came in the picture, but somebody gave me his number, and I called him, and I said,
you know, Michael Jackson, we want to do some auction for some items in ... from Neverland.

ck
So we met, and we went to Neverland together and we had to move all the rides, we had to move
... there was a lot of stuff that wasn't working and, it's all ... it was a mess. It wasn't kept up, you
know, and a lot of stuff weren't working. So at that time this ... we decided we ... he wants to

lJa
pursue it, the auction, Michael with Julian. And after that, some element that didn't like me there,
they started posting his stuff on the internet and telling him, look at all your stuff on the Internet
and this and that. So he didn't care that time. But then, this ... he decided he said because it wasn't
in the auction ...
ae
Q. All right. Stop right there. By he, you're referring to Michael Jackson?
ich

A. Michael Jackson.
mM

Q. Okay. Thank you.

A. He didn't want any of his personal item to be auctioned. He just wanted, you know, some of
the ride, and some of the stuff that he doesn't need over there. And when I ... we went to
Neverland, I told the security there, and I told the guy who was in charge of it that only these
a

certain items that this man can take. But I was traveling and I came back everything was gone,
and it was in the possession of Julian Auction. And so he posted picture of his personal item and
Te

this and that, which created a lot of pain for Michael. So then he asked me to cancel the auction,
and we canceled the auction and we got his stuff back.
w.

Q. Did this cause any problems between you and Michael Jackson?
ww
om
A. Not really. It didn't cause any problem with me and Michael Jackson. The only problem that
arised with me and Michael Jackson is because there was a guy that someone brought to him
from London. He's a Pakistani guy, and his name is Arfak Hussein. He called himself His Royal

n.c
Highness, HRH. And at that time everyone I was hiring, I was ... I'd check them out. So I called
the ... I have a friend of mine in the Secret Service, his name is Ron Williams, and I told him to
check Arfak Hussein. So we contacted Scotland Yard. He did, not me, and I got the report on
him. He was a heroin dealer. So I told Michael if this guy around you, I don't want to see you

so
anymore. This was the only things that happen I did not want to be around.

Q. Okay. All right. So let's move on to some of the steps that you tried to take to revitalize

ck
Michael Jackson's career. Now, did you try to ... did you have to try to help motivate Michael
Jackson to start working again?

lJa
A. You see, Michael was, even though before I came to the picture, when he was in Las Vegas,
he was at the hotel, the ... I can't remember the name of the hotel. He was, you know, like
practicing. He was, you know, keeping himself going, singing, and practicing, dancing, and
ae
everything. And then when he moved to ... from the hotel to the Palomino he still was working,
you know, he was doing things. And at that time when he was in Palomino he also was working.
Beside his music he was working on ... he wants to make a movie about King Tut, and he wants
ich
to play King Tut in the movie. And he had unbelievable stuff he was working on. He had so
many things he showed me.

Q. Stop right there. What do you mean unbelievable stuff?


mM

A. Like presentation, short videos, events of what he had in his mind, the way he wants the
movie to be done.

Q. Okay. So tell us about some of the different business projects that you started ... if any, that
a

you started working on.


Te

A. Well, the first project that came in is that after he moved to Los Angeles, Peter Lopez came to
me and he said that ... you know, we were discussing with Michael, at that time, that he should
w.

go back to work, and he decided that he will go back to work and on the condition that the
concert will be ... the first performance will be ... is in England. So Peter Lopez came to me and
he said, you know, Live Nation is very interested in having a contract with Michael Jackson for a
tour. So I told Michael. He said we'll see what they have to say. So I decided to go. So I went
ww
om
with Peter to Live Nation, and we had a meeting. And it didn't work out because Michael, he was
demanding some advanced cash, demanding he wants a house, he wants this and that. So we did
not agree with them on it. So I came back and report ...

n.c
Q. What kind of meeting? Live Nation?

so
A. Live Nation. And I went back and I report to Michael, and Michael told me, no, I don't want
to work with them. Then Peter came back again and he said, how about AEG? I don't know
AEG. So I said, fine. So I told Michael. Michael very familiar with AEG and Randy Phillips. So

ck
he said go and talk to them. At that time, Peter came back and told me that Randy Phillips is out
of the country. He was in London at that time, but when he comes back, he will arrange the
meeting. At that time, Michael Jackson was living at the Bel Air Hotel. So when ...

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: I'm standing up, Your Honor. I just want to get a time frame. I don't know
exactly when. ae
Judge Holmes: Oh, when was he living at the hotel, Mr. Tohme?
ich

A. In 2008.

Judge Holmes: When in 2008?


mM

A. About the last quarter of 2008.

Judge Holmes: All right.


a
Te

A. Because he moved out of the Bel Air Hotel before Christmas. We had rented a house for him.

Mr. Voth:
w.

Q. So we were talking different things. Just so we're on the same page, are we primarily referring
to the years 2008 and 2009 when you're talking ...
ww
om
A. No. We're referring at this time 2008 only. We're still in 2008.

n.c
Q. Okay. Still in 2008. Okay.

so
A. Right. So what happened is Randy Phillips came back from London. And I don't know how it
was. So he came, and we met at the Bel Air Hotel. And I said, I'll tell Michael, so I went.
Michael was in the hotel, so I went. I told him I just met with Randy, and we're going to have
another meeting. So at that time, Tom Barrack was trying to be involved with Michael and see if

ck
he can have him perform in Las Vegas because, at that time, he owned the Las Vegas Hilton. And
I told Tom he's not going to perform at the Las Vegas Hilton. In any case, what happened is I
received a call from Tom Barrack, and he said that why don't you have the meeting with Randy

lJa
Phillips and AEG in the Colony office. I said so ... no problem. So we met - -

Q. Do you remember when this meeting took place, approximately ... or what year? Are we still
in 2008?
ae
A. 2008.
ich

Q. 2008. Okay.
mM

A. We were in 2008. So I went to Colony office and Century City, and we met with Randy. Paul
Gongaware was also there from the AEG side. And then we met ... there was four or five guys
from Colony present. And we had the meeting there. And then I told Randy what Michael wishes
are, if he wants to sign with them. He said, you know, we'll make it happen, but he said Phil
Anschutz doesn't seem eager to do it because he heard so many things of it ... so many things
a

about Michael mental and physical being. So I said, you know, I can arrange for him to meet
Michael
Te

Q. Okay. Stop right there. Who is Phil Anschutz?


w.

A. He's the ... Anschutz, he's the owner of AEG.


ww
om
Q. Okay. All right. Please proceed with what happened next.

n.c
A. So I told Michael that at that time ... Michael was still ... went back to Las Vegas. He came for
a week or so and went back to Las Vegas to the Palomino. So I told Michael that there is a
meeting set up with the AEG, and Phil Anschutz is going to be there. So I flew to Vegas, and I
took Michael and we went ... we met at the MGM in one of the villas there. And Phil Anschutz

so
and everyone ... and Tim Leiweko was there, Phil Anschutz, Paul Gongaware, Mr. Anschutz
wife. And so they were very interested by Michael. And Phil Anschutz said absolutely we'll
move forward with him.

ck
Q. Okay. When was this ... when exactly was this meeting ...

lJa
A. 2008.

Q. ... with Phil Anschutz.


ae
A. 2008.
ich

Q. And it was in Las Vegas, you said?


mM

A. In Las Vegas at the MGM Hotel.

Q. And Michael Jackson was present at this meeting?

A. Yes. Michael came in ... me and Michael, and he brought with him his son, Blanket. And after
a

they want to talk to me in detail. So Michael ... I sent Michael back to security to come back
Te

home, and I stayed until the meeting finished and I went back to Michael and told him what took
place. And then AEG started to get engagemed.
w.

Q. All right. Before we move into the ... this is the concert series tour ... I have some more
questions for you. Putting aside the AEG concert series, were there any other business projects or
deals that you were working on?
ww
om
A. Yeah. There was the Nike, the Moonwalk shoes.

n.c
Q. All right. Stop right there. Can you elaborate on that, please?

A. Well, Nike contact me, and they wanted to do special shoes for Michael. And so they flew to
LA and the person from Nike, and he met with me and Michael. And then he went back and

so
came back some time later with a shoe for Michael, you know, the shoe and gave us unbelievable
artwork book. And Michael liked it. And they were still working on it, but then it didn't finalize
because he passed away. And then we were working on the Broadway show with the

ck
Nederlander.

Q. Right. Before we move onto that, was there an agreement signed with Nike?

lJa
A. No. There was no agreement signed with Nike because we did not know the terms of
condition of what is going to develop or develop in regard to the shoes. And still Michael did not
ae
want to make any decision on anything until he see the final shoes, if he likes to do it or not.
ich
Q. Okay. All right. You mentioned something regarding Broadway. Can you explain that for us.

A. Yes. I ... Peter Lopez came to me and told me there's a Jim Nederlander, who wants to do a
show ... Broadway show. So I asked Michael. He said talk to him. So the gentleman flew in to
mM

LA, and we met at the Peninsula Hotel, he and I and Peter, I think. I forgot. And they decided to
move forward. Then he met with Michael. And after, the attorney working on it, Michael agree
and he signed the deal with Nederlander.

Q. You recall any other ... any particular business deals that were in the works when you were
a

representing ...
Te

A. Yeah. There was the dance video.


w.

Q. What do you mean by dance video?


ww
om
A. Well, Michael was complaining to me. He said to me everywhere I go to with my kids to buy
games, every artist, not even close to me, have a game, and I want Sony to do a game for me. So
I contacted Sony and I said, you know, Michael wants a game. You've got to do a game for him.

n.c
So they agreed ...

Q. By game are you referring to video games?

so
A. Video games.

ck
Q. Okay.

lJa
A. So they agreed, and they sent a team from - - I don't know where they came from ... New York
or somewhere ... East Coast. And they came and they asked to have a big TV and this ... they
want to do a demonstration for Michael. At that time, Michael was living at the Bel Air Hotel. So
we arranged a separate place for him there with a TV and everything. And they brought in some
ae
small video to show him how it is, and he loved it. And they decided to move forward on it, and
they left and he died.
ich

Q. And can you ... when did these discussions take place? What year?

A. 2008.
mM

Q. 2008.

A. 2008. And then there was also the ...


a
Te

Q. So wait, let's stay with the Sony videogame deal. Was there an agreement signed with respect
to this deal?
w.

A. I can't remember, but they were ... they committed on doing it.

Q. Is the name Andy Heyward familiar to you?


ww
om
A. Yes, Andy Heyward. He also wanted to do a Thriller show for the TV, like a TV series. And
the gentleman spent a lot of time and money on it, and Michael loved it. And then I think there

n.c
was ...

Q. So let's stay right there. Did you have discussions with Andy Heyward?

so
A. Yes.

ck
Q. Did Andy Heyward meet with Michael Jackson?

lJa
A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember how many times?


ae
A. At least two or three times he met with him at the Bel Air Hotel.
ich

Q. And do you recall what was the purpose of those meetings?


mM

A. Well, he showed Michael some of his idea and some of the figure he wants to use in ... he
brought some little figure, you know, and to show him how he's ...

Q. Wait. Stop right there. What do you mean by little figure?


a

A. Just like ... how to describe it ... like figure he wants to use in like a Mickey Mouse or like a ...
Te

you know, but it wasn't Mickey Mouse. Figure like Mickey Mouse. You know, something that he
will use in his ... in the series.
w.

Q. Do you recall what the figure looked like?

A. I can't remember. It's like a lot of ghosts, a lot of this, a lot of that, you know, so scary things.
ww
om
Q. And did Michael Jackson provide any input? Did he give you any input to Andy Heyward?

n.c
A. Michael loved it. You know, he couldn't wait for it to move on. And, you know, he ... Andy
Heyward was working on it. And ... but again, it did not happen because Michael passed away.

so
Q. And was there a signed agreement that took place with respect to ...

ck
A. Well, no there wasn't. We were working on a contract. And I think, as I recall, Joel Katz was
looking at it at that time, and Peter. Joel Katz looked at also, I think.

lJa
Q. All right. This is the first time I've heard the name Joel Katz from your testimony. Who was
Joel Katz?
ae
A. Joel Katz is an attorney. He's an entertainment attorney, and he lives in Atlanta. And he ... I
hired him to help us in the Abdullah case, but he could not do anything. He's a nice man from
Atlanta.
ich

Q. Okay. And did you run into any issues with respect to the deal that you were trying to put
together with Andy Heyward, any legal issues?
mM

A. No. We didn't have any legal issue, but a later time, there was a, I think, inaudible, if I'm
correct, in regard to use of the music or some part that he said he owns or not own. And we tried
to solve it at that time, but I don't know if there was a lawsuit also. I don't know. I can't
remember.
a
Te

Q. Are you familiar with the name Christian Audigier?

A. Mm-hmm. Yes.
w.

Q. Okay. Can you describe to us ...


ww
om
A. Yes. Also, Peter Lopez, he wants to have Christian Audigier do a line for Michael Jackson. He
was doing, at that time ... he does tee shirts, hats, et cetera, et cetera. And so what happened is, at
that time, he was doing some work with Madonna, I think. And Christian, he really liked Michael

n.c
a lot, and so he wants to do a line for Michael. So I told Michael. He said go look at it. So I went
there with Peter Lopez, to his warehouse, and I looked at his work and everything. And I ask
him, you know, where are they selling it. It was at K-mart, and I don't know what other place. So
I went. I told Michael, and we felt like it's below Michael to sell his product in these places, so

so
Michael declined. He said, "No. I don't want to do it."

Q. So there was no agreement signed?

ck
A. No agreement signed. And we had ... Louis Vuitton, at that time, wanted to make a watch for

lJa
him, also. But again ...

Q. What happened there? ae


A. He died.
ich

Q. Was there an agreement signed with Louis Vuitton?

A. No, sir. No.


mM

Q. And do you recall how that came about?

A. When we were in London, a gentleman came in and I think he knew Michael. And he said
a

that he wants to make a watch for him. So we told him that, you know, submit what you want,
artwork and this and that, and let Mr. Jackson look at it and we'll go from there. But it did not
Te

come to light because he passed away.

Q. All right. And you mentioned a gentleman. Is that ... was he affiliated or employed by Louis
w.

Vuitton?

A. He was from Louis Vuitton. I can't remember his name.


ww
om
Q. Okay.

n.c
A. I thought I had his card, but I couldn't find it.

so
Q. You remember anything about Michael Jackson's 50th birthday and his appearance on Good
Morning America?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Can you describe to us what you remember?

A. Well, he didn't appear. He had a ... he just had a phone call.


ae
Q. Okay. And what was the phone call about?
ich

A. You're talking ... I'm sorry, what? I missed word. What did you say?

Q. I'm talking about his 50th birthday and a phone call.


mM

A. Yeah, a phone call. I arranged the phone call. They want to talk to Michael.

Q. They being Good ... people like Good Morning America?


a
Te

A. Good Morning America.

Q. Okay.
w.

A. And at that time, I remember, they want him to endorse Obama during the conversation, so he
told me to tell them not to ask him about Obama.
ww
om
Q. Okay.

n.c
A. And also, there was ... we were talking to Cirque Du Soleil.

so
Q. Okay. And what do you recall about conversations with ...

A. We received a call from a gentleman, Wishna.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Jack Wishna.

lJa
Mr. Voth:

A. Jack Wishna.
ae
ich
Judge Holmes: No. Please, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr. Weitzman: Sorry.


mM

Mr. Voth:

A. Jack Wishna. And then we also received a call from a French lady. I did not speak to her. She's
from Cirque Du Soleil. She spoke to Dennis Hawk, his ... Michael's attorney. And ...
a
Te

Q. So stop right there. When ... what year did you receive the call from the French lady of Cirque
Du Soleil?
w.

A. 2008 or early 2009. I can't recall.

Q. Okay.
ww
om
A. I did not speak to her myself. She spoke to Dennis Hawk.

n.c
Q. Okay. And what is your understanding as to what they spoke about?

so
Mr. Weitzman: I'm about to object, Your Honor. That would be hearsay.

Judge Holmes: Maybe not.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Maybe hearsay on hearsay.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Or with him. So let's see.

Mr. Voth: Well, not, too ..


ae
ich
Judge Holmes: It's overruled. Now, we'll hear his answer.

Mr. Voth: Okay.


mM

Mr. Voth:

Q. What is your understanding of what was conveyed to Dennis Hawk?


a

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. Just so the record is really clear, the testimony is going to be ... Mr.
Te

Tohme is going to testify what a lawyer told him some third person told the lawyer. Make sure
that's what's overruled.
w.

Judge Holmes: His understanding of what was going on. What was going on with Cirque Du
Soleil, Mr. Tohme.
ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: It's being offered for the truth. The matter is certifiable. Just want to get it all
clear.

n.c
Mr. Voth:

Q. What is your understanding of what was going on with Cirque Du Soleil?

so
A. They want to do a show in Las Vegas.

ck
Judge Holmes: They do have ...

lJa
Mr. Voth:

Q. A show about what?


ae
Judge Holmes: Wait, did you have personal knowledge of this or is this what Mr. Hawk told
ich
you?

Mr. Tohme: No. I have a knowledge of this ... personal knowledge from Mr. Wishna, not from
mM

the lady.

Judge Holmes: Is it based on what Mr. Wishna told you?

Mr. Tohme: Yes.


a
Te

Judge Holmes: Okay. The objection is sustained. Thank you, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I approach the Clerk? I have a document marked for identification.
w.

Judge Holmes: You may.


ww
om
Court Clerk: Exhibit 673-R is marked for identification.

n.c
Mr. Voth:

so
Q. You know if Jack Wishna has passed away?

A. Yes.

ck
Q. Okay. All right. Looking at Exhibit 673- R, marked for identification, this email, do you

lJa
recognize this document?

A. Yes. ae
Q. What is it?
ich

A. It's an email that's sent to me from Mr. Wishna.

Q. Did you have discussion about Cirque Du Soleil with Jack Wishna before receiving this
mM

email?

A. Yes, over the phone.


a

Q. Did you receive this email during the course of your representation of Michael Jackson?
Te

A. Yes.
w.

Q. Was it part of your regular business practice to receive emails on behalf of Michael Jackson?

A. Yes, of course.
ww
om
Q. Did you retain this email in your regular course of business as Michael Jackson's manager?

n.c
A. Yes.

so
Mr. Voth: Your Honor, respondent moves into evidence Exhibit ... marked for identification as
673-R.

ck
Judge Holmes: It is admitted.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Well, it does contain hearsay. We'll make that objection for the record.

Judge Holmes: It didn't. ae


Mr. Weitzman: Jack Wishna didn't work for Cirque Du Soleil. He had nothing to do with them.
ich

Judge Holmes: Well, I expect there to be some cross-examination.

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.


mM

Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth:
a
Te

Q. With respect to Jack Wishna, what is your understanding as to what he wanted to do with
respect to Cirque Du Soleil and Michael Jackson?
w.

A. He wants to do a show ... a musical show, like the Beatles show they had in Las Vegas.

Q. And who is Jack Wishna, or who was Jack Wishna?


ww
om
A. Well, I know he was a ... some kind of promoter from Las Vegas.

n.c
Q. Okay.

so
A. That's all I know.

Q. And what was the outcome of those discussions you had with Jack Wishna regarding pursuing

ck
a potential Cirque Du Soleil show?

lJa
A. Well, we're trying ... he was trying to meet with Michael and to talk to Michael and to me in
regard to putting the show, and they arranged the meeting with Cirque Du Soleil personnel.

Mr. Weitzman: So ...


ae
Q. And ...
ich

Mr. Weitzman: ... I'm sorry. Is ... was the question for Mr. Tohme to repeat a conversation he
had with Jack Wishna or are we just dealing what's in this email?
mM

Judge Holmes: We're identifying who Mr. Wishna was. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth: Thank you, Your Honor.


a

Mr. Voth:
Te

Q. Was there an agreement eventually signed between Michael Jackson and Cirque Du Soleil?
w.

A. No.
ww
om
Q. Okay.

n.c
Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Go ahead.

so
Mr. Voth:

ck
Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of Michael Jackson's international appeal?

lJa
A. Of course.

Q. What is your personal knowledge?


ae
A. What do you mean by personal knowledge? In what ...
ich

Q. What do you know about his ... personally about his international appeal, if any?

Mr. Weitzman: I'm going to object on hearsay. Mr. Jackson didn't work internationally during
mM

the time that Mr. Tohme represented him or was involved him, so ...

Judge Holmes: International appeal could mean things other than personal appearances. The
objection is overruled. Go ahead, Mr. Voth. Or actually, go ahead Mr. Tohme.
a

Mr. Voth:
Te

A. Well, he was ... Michael Jackson was one of the most popular entertainer on the planet. And
he has ...
w.

Mr. Weitzman: Objection, Your Honor. That calls for and is speculation, unless you lay a
ww

foundation for he's able to know that.


om
Judge Holmes: Lay a foundation then, Mr. Voth.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: It's also kind of expert testimony from a nonexpert ...

so
Judge Holmes: I think you're estopped from denying that Mr. Jackson was one of the greatest
entertainers internationally.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Except I was involved, so I have a little more personal knowledge.

lJa
Judge Holmes: But you're not a witness, Mr. Weitzman. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth: ae
Q. You worked ... have you worked overseas?
ich

A. Sorry?

Q. Have you worked overseas? Have you worked outside of the United States?
mM

A. Myself?

Q. Yes.
a
Te

A. Yeah.

Q. Do you know people outside of the United States?


w.

A. Of course.
ww
om
Q. What is your understanding of Michael Jackson's reputation overseas?

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry ...

Mr. Voth:

so
Q. ... but not to the people that you've dealt with.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: He sounds like he's asking for hearsay evidence based on input more than
people who've allegedly spoken to him about Michael Jackson.

lJa
Judge Holmes: For me, that one's true. That one's sustained, Mr. Weitzman. Did you have access
to Mr. Jackson's business records? ae
Mr. Tohme: Yes, sir.
ich
Judge Holmes: During the course of your representation?

Mr. Tohme: Yes, sir.


mM

Judge Holmes: Did you have access to his income statements?

Mr. Tohme: Yes, sir.


a

Judge Holmes: All right. Was he receiving royalties ...


Te

Mr. Tohme: Yes.


w.

Judge Holmes: ... from sales overseas?


ww
om
Mr. Tohme: Yes, sir, through Sony.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Through Sony. Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Weitzman: I'm sorry. Just for the record in case somebody here in court wondered why I
didn't say anything, is the court ruling that he can give an opinion on Mr. Jackson's international

so
appeal because of a stream of revenue from his music sales when he wasn't touring?

ck
Judge Holmes: Why is this a big deal, Mr. Weitzman? We felt that Michael Jackson's whole loss
of records and loss songs all over the place.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: You know what, I did not objection to any of this. I'm just kind of programmed
into admissible evidence coming to court.

Judge Holmes: I understand.


ae
ich
Mr. Weitzman: And I'll just ...

Judge Holmes: I understand.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: ... let, Your Honor, go, however you think is appropriate.

Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Voth.


a

Mr. Voth:
Te

Q. What is your personal knowledge of the public perception of Michael Jackson overseas?
w.

A. He had great followers overseas.


ww
om
Q. And was Michael Jackson concerned about other entertainers perhaps trying to claim his King
of Pop title?

n.c
A. Yes.

Mr. Weitzman: Calls for speculation.

so
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

ck
Mr. Voth:

lJa
Q. How do you know this?
ae
A. Michael Jackson, himself, told me. He said they're trying to take the title of the King of Pop
from him and give it to Justin Timberlake. So at that time, when he told me that, I told Randy
Phillips that any publication or any news release about Michael Jackson, anything ... whenever
ich
they mention Michael Jackson, to put the King of Pop before his name. The King of Pop,
Michael Jackson.

Q. Is that something that you also conveyed to James Niederlander for their Broadway show?
mM

A. I don't remember. But I told that to Randy and Paul Gongaware.

Q. Okay. Talk about some of Michael Jackson's songs. Was Michael Jackson working on any
new music prior to his death?
a
Te

A. As far I know, yes, he was.


w.

Q. How do you know this?

A. Because he told me, and I saw him working.


ww
om
Q. And when you say you saw him working, what does that mean?

n.c
A. Well, he was, you know, writing lyrics and ... I don't know if he was writing music, and he
had people coming to him to work with him, preparing himself. And when he was in Las Vegas,
also, he was ... he told me that he did a few new songs.

so
Q. And you mentioned people coming to him. Can you elaborate?

ck
A. Well, people in the ... like, that they were working with him. We had ... there were some
dancers and there were some musician. And I remember Michael Prince. He was working with

lJa
Mr. Jackson at that time.

Q. Who is Michael Prince?


ae
A. He's in the music business. He's a musician, I think.
ich

Q. And I think you mentioned another artist. Is that correct?

A. He had a couple of dancer. I don't recall their names.


mM

Q. Okay. And is the name Akon familiar to you?

A. Yeah, Akon. Akon did a number with Michael, and at that time, Michael was very upset with
a

Akon because Akon released the song on the internet. And he wrote some stuff about Michael
Michael didn't like. So we had Peter Lopez call his manager and call him and then they removed
Te

it out of the internet.

Q. And so while you were working with Michael Jackson, do you have any recollection of as to
w.

how many songs, if any, he finished?

A. No, but there were few he said. I don't know.


ww
om
Q. All right. Let's start ... let's delve a little bit more into the tour itself and how that came about.
So ... now, when you managed Michael Jackson, did you think he needed to tour again?

n.c
A. He needed what?

so
Q. Did you think whether he needed to tour again?

ck
A. Yeah, because it's the biggest and best way for him to create a lot of money, to my knowledge.

lJa
Q. All right. So we ... and then we delved a little bit more into the AEG tour and how that came
about. Can you take us ... so what year are we ... when the planning started for the tour, what
year are we in?

A. 2008.
ae
ich
Q. 2008. Okay. Can you walk us through the different steps in terms of the planning for the tour?

A. I'm sorry, I ... can you repeat the question?


mM

Q. Sure. All right. So you mentioned 2008. Can you give us an idea as to the different steps that
were taken to plan for the tour?

A. Yeah. Well, you know, we ... after the contract was signed with AEG, he started rehearsing.
a

And also, AEG was taking, you know, all the steps to arrange for the concert in London. And
they were planning on what to do, what to send. And we were planning on renting a house for
Te

him in London, close to the O2 Arena. And we were, you know, working on how to handle the
merchandise, how to handle the sale, how to handle all these things that included in the concert.
w.

Q. Did you participate in any negotiations with respect to the agreement that was reached
between Michael Jackson and AEG?
ww
om
A. Yes. Well, what happened is, you know, the attorney were working on it, and I was aware of
what's going on.

n.c
Q. Okay, so you did participate.

A. I'm sorry?

so
Q. So you did participate to some extent.

ck
A. I participate ... yeah, I need to know what's going on, you know, have knowledge of what's
going on.

lJa
Q. Okay. Do you recall how many concerts were initially planned for the This is It concert tour?
ae
A. I think ...
ich
Q. Approximately.

A. I think we started maybe with them. Then Michael Jackson wanted to break Prince's record at
mM

the 02 Arena, which it was like 30 or 33 concert, so he decided to do that. And then when we
went to London and Michael went and ...

Q. So stop right there. When we went to London, when did you go to London and who are you
referring to?
a
Te

A. I'm referring to Michael Jackson and I and Randy Phillips, Paul Gongaware and some other
team from AEG. This is when we decided, you know, the date of the concert. And Michael flew
in, and he appeared at the 02 Arena to launch the concert.
w.

Q. Are you talking about the press conference?


ww
om
A. Yeah, the press conference that took place at the 02 Arena.

n.c
Q. Okay. What ... do you know the number of seats that were at the 02 Arena?

A. No. But all I know that we sold 14,000 tickets per minute.

so
Q. So can you describe for us what happened the day that Michael Jackson announced the
concert series, This is It, to the media?

ck
A. It was a frenzy. It was an unbelievable ... he was so happy. He was so excited when he saw
that people still love him and care for him. And so what happened is we decided, at that time, just

lJa
to give him confidence. So we were letting the media know the next stop we're going to stop
with Michael so fan will show up. And the night when we announced the concert, he went to the
Broadway. We saw the show Oliver. And when we came out, thousands and thousands of people
were there. We were shocked.
ae
Q. So was there an agreement between AEG and Michael Jackson to propose developing as
ich
many as three films together?

A. All I know is I know about one film.


mM

Q. Okay.

A. And this came later after the deal was signed for the concert because Michael, all he wants to
do that ... you know, he used to tell me that ... he said people remember Elvis because he was in
a

the movies. People remember Frank Sinatra because he's in the movie. He wants to be in the
movie. He want to be remembered, you know.
Te

Q. All right. So let's move onto the rehearsal stage of the This is It concert series. You ever
attend any rehearsals?
w.

A. Yes.
ww
om
Q. Were the rehearsals being filmed?

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. What did you know about the filming of these rehearsals?

so
A. I didn't know anything.

ck
Q. Okay.

lJa
A. All I know that they were shooting the rehearsal.

Q. Now, I'm sure you're aware that there's a lot of this regarding whether you did or did not cease
ae
being Michael Jackson's manager up until the point he died. What is your understanding?

A. Can you rephrase it? I don't understand what you said.


ich

Q. Sure. Were you Michael Jackson's manager, in your view, when he passed away?
mM

A. Of course, I was his manager.

Q. And why do you say that?


a

A. Because I was his manager. I was with him a week before he died at the Staples Center. And
Randy Phillips gave me the ... what you call it ... like attached. You wore it on your ... it's like a
Te

wrist thing to enter anytime I want to the Staples Center. And I was with Frank DiLeo over there,
and Michael Jackson told him to give a big hug. And he said to him, "Give your boss a big hug."
This is what he told Mike (sic) DiLeo.
w.

Q. Who's Frank DiLeo?


ww
om
A. I mean Frank DiLeo. He wanted ... he used to work with Michael before, but somehow when
Arfek Hussein showed up, I told Michael I'm not going to set foot there. And after that, I sent
him the report on Arfek Hussein. And then there was a ... from ... I heard from others that there

n.c
was a big argument and stuff with that guy and DiLeo and Michael. And then they told me that
they got rid of him. And then Michael ...

so
Q. Did Michael get ... sure.

A. ... then Michael asked Randy Phillips for me to come to the Staples Center.

ck
Q. And what ... when was this again?

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Can I just have a running objection because most of it's hearsay. I know you're
going to let him in and you ... I don't mean it as the short of it. You're going to allow it in for
whatever the purposes the court thinks appropriate. Just wanted a running objection for the
record.
ae
ich
Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Voth.

Mr. Voth:
mM

Q. When was this meeting that you came back to the ...

A. Just through like ... I think two weeks maximum before he died.
a

Q. Was this at the Staples ...


Te

A. Yeah, the Staples Center.


w.

Q. Staples Center.
ww
om
A. Yes.

n.c
Q. Did Michael Jackson ever inform you that you were no longer his manager?

A. No.

so
Q. Did anybody ever provide you with documents revoking your authority?

ck
A. I saw that after he died. But when he died, and I was at the hospital ... at UCL

lJa
A. Hospital, Randy Phillips came to me and said you're the manager, Dr. Tohme, and you're the
only one who has a contract with him. We need you to sign some document, and I did.

Q. And you recall what this document was?


ae
A. It was regarding ... in regard to something that has to do with the concert. I forgot. I can't
ich
recall.

Q. So this was after Michael Jackson's death.


mM

A. It was in the hospital.

Q. In the hospital.
a

A. Yeah, the day he died.


Te

Q. And Randy Phillips approached you.


w.

A. Yeah, and he told me he was the only one who has authorized, so he said we need you to sign
this document, and I did sign it for him.
ww
om
Q. You did sign it.

n.c
A. Yes.

so
Q. You know of a Michael Kane?

A. Yes.

ck
Q. How do you know him?

lJa
A. Michael Kane. I met him after ... or before Michael died. I received a call from him, and he
said he's now working for Michael. And he asked me for some money because I was holding a
large amount of money for Michael.
ae
Q. And did he ask you to provide any financial information?
ich

A. No.
mM

Q. And did you have any further dealings with Michael Kane?

A. Well, he asked for some money. And I remember, at the time, I sent him $100,000.
a

Q. And why did you send him $100,000?


Te

A. They said they need to pay ... to make some payroll.


w.

Q. Okay.
ww
om
A. And that money that I had in my possession, Michael told me never to tell anyone about it
because we were saving it to buy the house in Las Vegas.

n.c
Q. So Michael Jackson gave you some cash?

A. No. What happened is I found out that Sony owed Michael Jackson some money that they

so
have not sent it to him. So I contacted Sony. Also, Peter Lopez contacted them. And we told
them. So they said yeah, you're right, this and that. So ... and then they sent the money. So I told
Michael. He said put it in your name. I said no. So I went and I opened an account in MJJ

ck
Productions and put it in the bank in his name. But I was the sole signature of it.

Q. Do you recall the amount?

lJa
A. Around $11 million. ae
Q. That's a ...
ich
A. Give and take.

Q. Were you requested to keep this a secret?


mM

A. He told me he doesn't want anyone to know about it. And he wants me ... he said the more
money come from the concert or any money coming from his royalty, to keep it with it so we can
buy the house in Vegas.
a

Q. Did you have to give any of his cash to the Estate of Michael Jackson?
Te

A. Yes. I gave the remaining ... over $5 million after his death ... I sent ...
w.

Q. Okay.
ww
om
A. ... I sent the money to the Estate.

n.c
Q. How did that come about?

A. What do you mean how? It wasn't my money. And I informed the Estate that I have the
money. Everybody knows. Mr. Weitzman knew I had the money. Randy Phillips knew I had the

so
money. So I gave it to them. It's not mine.

ck
Q. And approximately ... do you remember when you returned the money after Michael
Jackson's death?

lJa
A. I mean, immediately after he died, but I don't know the exact date. It could be a week, could
be two weeks, no longer than that because they were rushing me. They want it. They want it.
And my attorney told me not to give it to them, but I overruled them. I gave it back to them.
ae
Q. Do you know of a Karen Langford?
ich
A. Doesn't ring a bell. I don't know.

Q. No. Do you recall having any conversations with her during the course of your representation
mM

with ... of Michael Jackson?

A. Who is she? I don't know.

Q. Okay.
a
Te

A. Maybe. I don't know. I can't remember.


w.

Mr. Voth: One moment, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Sure.


ww
om
Mr. Voth:

n.c
Q. Are you in litigation with the Estate of Michael Jackson?

so
A. Yes, sir. We've been in litigation for seven years.

Q. Do you recall a hearing before the Labor Commissioner? The California ...

ck
A. Yes. Yes, sir.

lJa
Q. And do you recall what was the outcome of that petition?

Mr. Weitzman: Objection. It's hearsay.


ae
ich
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman: I think the ruling is actually running.


mM

Mr. Tohme: Should I answer?

Judge Holmes: Yes, you could.


a

Mr. Voth:
Te

A. Yeah. The Labor Commissioner, he ruled in my favor. He cut the 15 percent down to seven
and a half percent.
w.

Q. Seven and a half percent of what? Can you explain?


ww
om
A. Of total income of Michael Jackson.

n.c
Mr. Voth: I have no further questions, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Will there be cross- examination, Mr. Weitzman?

so
Mr. Weitzman: Yes, there probably will, Your Honor.

ck
Judge Holmes: Okay. I'll give you lunch to think it over. We'll resume a little bit later at 1:30.
Do you have something else? No. 1:30.

lJa
RECESS.
ae
Mr. Camp: Your Honor, just a couple housekeeping things before we start back. Regarding the
first stipulation and regarding the Petitioner's relevancy objections, I would just like to ... I have
talked to Mr. Toscher about this, but I would just like to have it on the record. If we could get
ich
those specific exhibit numbers that they have a relevancy objection to by close of business
tomorrow?

Judge Holmes: Can you do that?


mM

Mr. Toscher: Yes, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Do it.


a
Te

Mr. Camp: Thank you. And then Ms. Herbert has a matter.

Judge Holmes: Ms. Herbert?


w.

Ms Herbert: Your Honor, we have a witness that's flying in from New York and has another
flight back to New York, and we have scheduled them for a time slot at 3:00 o'clock. So if
ww
om
possible, we would like to allow that witness to testify even if another witness has to be
interrupted briefly.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Is that Mr. Nederlander?

Ms Herbert: Yes.

so
Judge Holmes: 3:00 p.m. ... we can take a break then.

ck
Ms Herbert: Okay. Thank you.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Do you have any cross- examination?

Mr. Weitzman: I do.


ae
Judge Holmes: Go ahead.
ich

CROSS-EXAMINATION
mM

Mr. Weitzman:

Q. Mr. Tohme, contracts that we saw right at the beginning of your testimony, I think it was a
finder's fee agreement and a services agreement and an indemnity agreement. They are marked,
what, 672? I don't remember the number.
a
Te

Court Clerk: That's correct.

Mr. Weitzman: Okay. 672 ... 673. 672. I'm sorry. 672. I know I'm getting old, but come on.
w.

Mr. Weitzman:
ww
om
Q. So you have those in hand?

n.c
A. Yes, sir.

Q. So the first document dated May 2nd, 2008, it's addressed to Dr. Tohme Tohme. It says, "Dear
Dr. Tohme," and then it has whatever the language is in it. What is this agreement?

so
A. This is the agreement regarding Neverland - - commission on Neverland.

ck
Q. And when you say we got on Neverland, who's we?

lJa
A. No, me.

Q. Okay. And Michael Jackson?


ae
A. Yes, sir.
ich

Q. Okay. And what does the agreement provide for?


mM

A. To provide 10 percent of the total value of the loan.

Q. Okay. And at the time the loan took place, you were acting as Mr. Jackson's manager and his
advisor, correct?
a

A. No. At that time I wasn't his manager.


Te

Q. Were you acting as his advisor?


w.

A. No. I just came to the picture, and that I was, you know, to see if I can help him arrange a loan
...
ww
om
Q. Okay.

n.c
A. ... for him.

so
Q. So you had told us earlier that you began working for Mr. Jackson ... I thought you said
March or April. Did you start to work for him later than that?

ck
A. Well, I start communicating with him, and I starting, you know, working on the Neverland
deal in the beginning. And after the land, after Colony bought the note, he asked me to work with
him.

lJa
Q. And do you recall when Colony brought ... bought the note from Fortress that we talked about
earlier this morning?
ae
A. I don't recall, sir.
ich

Q. It was before this May 2nd, 2008, deal was signed, was it?

A. I believe so.
mM

Q. Okay. And does this May 2nd, 2008, letter apply to the deal that Colony Capital had done
when it bought out the note?
a

A. Yes, sir.
Te

Q. In other words, you were to get 10 percent of something because your friend in the company
you worked for, Colony Capital, lent Michael Jackson money. Is that correct?
w.

A. If you want to say it this ...


ww
om
Mr. Voth: Objection. Argumentative.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:

so
A. I'm sorry. What?

ck
Q. Does this agreement provide that you were to get 10 percent ... and I want to talk to you about
what the sum was of the 10 percent ... you were to get 10 percent of some sum because Tom
Barrack, who you told us was like your brother and a friend and someone you worked for, lent

lJa
Michael Jackson the money to get him out of the Fortress loan?

A. That's correct. I wasn't working for Tom Barrack. I was working with Tom Barrack. I didn't
work for him. I worked with him.
ae
ich
Q. Well, were you ...

A. I was a consultant to Colony, but I was doing other things besides Colony.
mM

Q. Got it. You did get a check from him every month, didn't you?

A. Absolutely, yes.
a

Q. And how much of a check every month did you get from Tom Barrack?
Te

A. Twenty-thousand.
w.

Q. And for that 20,000, did you work as a consultant?


ww

A. Yes.
om
Q. In other words, that was your consulting fee. Sorry. $20,000 a month was your consulting fee.

n.c
A. Consulting fee, plus I get part of any deal we made that I'm involved in.

so
Q. Okay. And so you ... did you tell Mr. Jackson you had a consulting fee arrangement with Mr.
Barrack?

ck
A. He knew that. He came to me because he knew my relationship with Colony.

lJa
Q. Did you tell Mr. Jackson you were receiving a consulting fee on a monthly basis from Tom
Barrack?

A. I can't remember if I told him or not.


ae
Q. Well, the fact is you didn't tell him, isn't that correct?
ich

A. I don't remember.
mM

Q. So how were you to be paid on the Neverland loan for Mr. Barracks taking out the Fortress
loan? In other words, 10 percent of what? What sum do you think you were entitled to 10 percent
of?

A. The total value of the loan, which it was around 23 million plus. He paid people before me
a

more than the 10 percent he offered me. And he offered me more than that, but I refused.
Te

Q. So the 10 percent you were to get, was that to come from Mr. Jackson's portion of the loan
proceeds?
w.

A. No. I don't know where it's going to come from. He promised to give me 10 percent.
ww
om
Q. He, Mr. Jackson?

n.c
A. Yes, sir.

Q. So when you met Mr. Jackson, was it fair to say that he was broke?

so
A. Well, for his status, if he doesn't have 200, $300 million in the bank, to me, he's broke.

ck
Q. Okay. Did he have problem paying his bills on a regular basis?

lJa
A. At that time, I didn't know anything about his financial situation until I start working with him
later on.
ae
Q. Well, you ... haven't you said that as you began to work with Michael he was basically broke,
he had no cash?
ich
A. Well, he had cash, but as I just mentioned to you, to me, broke for a guy in the status of
Michael Jackson, you know, to have ... doesn't have some large amount of money, I was shocked
that he doesn't have that money, and I was shocked that he could not pay the $23 million for
Fortress.
mM

Q. But he didn't have it, did he?

A. At that time, no. That's why we went to Colony.


a
Te

Q. So was this a straight loan with Colony Capital? In other words, they took out Fortress, and
Mr. Jackson secured the loan with Neverland?
w.

A. At that time, then the attorney worked out a deal where they changed because Michael at that
time, he didn't have anything to do anymore with Neverland. It's a terrible memory for him. So
they decided to do a joint venture and change the name of Neverland into Sycamore Valley
Ranch, the original name.
ww
om
Q. So when you ... who was involved in making this change?

n.c
A. It was involved between the attorney for Michael Jackson and the attorneys for Colony.

so
Q. And who was the attorney for Michael Jackson that was ...

A. Earl Goodman.

ck
Q. Earl Goodman?

lJa
A. Yes, sir.

Q. The lawyer in Malibu?


ae
ich
A. Yes.

Q. And is it your recollection now that your friend, Mr. Barrack, basically bailed out Michael
from a foreclosure from the Fortress loan and bought the note and then made another deal with
mM

Mr. Jackson after the original loan?

A. No. It was all the same deal. They didn't close the deal. He bought the note, and then I thought
... Mr. Goodman thought the best way to do it at that time with the attorney for Colony to go that
route. And I don't know about this transaction.
a
Te

Q. Is it your testimony that you were not involved in the remaining part of the transaction
between Colony Capital and Mr. Jackson regarding the Neverland property?
w.

A. I was involved, but I was not involved in implementing what goes on in this agreement
because I'm not an attorney. I have no knowledge of that issue.
ww
om
Q. So can you tell us what the agreement was, as you understood it, between Mr. Jackson and
Colony Capital in forming the Sycamore Valley Ranch Joint Venture LLC?

n.c
A. I can't ... I don't remember exactly what took place then. But all I know that it was like a
partnership. And then when Michael Jackson pays the note to Colony for certain interest ... and
Colony at that time ... the ranch was falling apart. So they had to invest a lot of money to bring it

so
back to its glory so if they want to sell it.

Q. Okay. So Michael Jackson was able to avoid foreclosure on the ranch that he owned in ... up

ck
in Santa Barbara County, and Mr. Barrack bought the note for Michael, or on behalf of Michael,
correct?

lJa
Mr. Voth: Objection. Asked and answered, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


ae
Mr. Weitzman:
ich

Q. Yes?
mM

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And at that time when the loan was bought out, Michael Jackson, based on his advisors, gave
Mr. Barrack a security interest as collateral for his take in the ranch, as collateral for him taking
out of that ... taking out the loan, correct?
a
Te

A. Yeah. Well, the ranch was a collateral for the loan.

Q. And then ... you correct me if I'm wrong ... wasn't that first note kind of a short-term note? It
w.

was for six months that Mr. Barrack first loaned the 23 or $24 million?
ww
om
A. I believe so. It was for a short period of time. Then the attorney suggested to work that deal in
regard to when they changed the name into Sycamore Valley Ranch.

n.c
Q. And isn't it accurate that as those months passed after Colony Capital took Fortress off the
hook and put themselves on with respect to the loan, Mr. Jackson couldn't make the payments
and a new agreement was created?

so
A. No. It has nothing to do with the payment. But Michael at that time, he said, you know, it's a
short period. And at that time, the attorney advised that this is not the final agreement with

ck
Colony. It was set that time, as I believe, just to get it over and take the note ... buy the note from
Fortress and move on with the deal.

lJa
Q. So did Mr. Jackson own 100 percent of Neverland when he was financed by Fortress?

A. Yes.
ae
Q. And after the Sycamore Valley Ranch was done ... that is, that new entity was created ...
ich
Michael Jackson only owned 50 percent of his ranch, correct?

A. I don't remember the agreement, to be honest with you.


mM

Q. Mr. Tohme?

A. Yes, sir.
a

Q. Didn't Mr. Jackson give up 50 percent interest in his ranch because he couldn't pay down the
Te

short-term note?

A. I ...
w.

Q. Isn't that what happened?


ww
om
A. I don't know. To be honest, I can't remember. I mean, the document ... you have the document.
It speaks for itself, the contract between Colony and Michael Jackson.

n.c
Q. Hang on. I'm going to get it for you to look at.

A. Thank you.

so
Mr. Weitzman: May I have a moment, Your Honor?

ck
Judge Holmes: Of course.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Is this 674?
ae
Court Clerk: Exhibit 674-P is marked for identification

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.


ich

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I seek some clarification, as this seems to be outside the scope of
Respondent's direct?
mM

Judge Holmes: Oh, no. You were asking him about how he got to know Michael Jackson and
what services he was performing ... well within the scope. Go ahead, Mr. Weltzman.

Mr. Voth: Fair enough.


a
Te

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor. I'm trying to get the exact page.

Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, rather than take two or three minutes to find it, can I just go to the
w.

next area and come back to this ...


ww

Judge Holmes: Oh, of course.


om
Mr. Weitzman: ... when we get the exact paragraph?

n.c
Judge Holmes: Of course.

so
Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.

Mr. Weitzman:

ck
Q. Mr. Tohme, with your indulgence, I'll come back to that document. I want to go now to the

lJa
next document, the service agreement. This is Exhibit C on the bottom. It's I think the third page
in Exhibit 672-R entitled Services Agreement. I'm sorry. I have one other question I want to ask
you about the Neverland Sycamore Valley Ranch. At the time you were working with Mr.
Jackson and the finder's fee was executed, how long had you been a consultant for Colony
ae
Capital? I forgot to ask you that question.

A. Before five years. I don't recall.


ich

Q. And for all that four or five years, had you been receiving a consulting fee?
mM

A. Yes.

Q. And was it roughly $20,000 during the course of that four- or five-year arrangement?
a

A. Yes, sir.
Te

Q. And if you look at Page 1 of the finder's fee, Paragraph 1 where it says Services as a Finder.
And it reads, "Your services as a finder for introducing me to Colony based on your substantial
preexisting relationships." That ... did I read that correctly?
w.

A. Yes.
ww
om
Q. And does this paragraph include your current relationships ... that is, your current consulting
relationship?

n.c
A. You mean at this time?

so
Q. No. When this was written.

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. You had a current relationship with Colony Capital, not a preexisting relationship, right, when
this was written? In ... May 2nd, 2008 ... sorry. Let me just fast-forward. May 2nd, 2008, you had
a ... an existing, current, active relationship with Colony Capital, correct?

A. Absolutely.
ae
ich
Q. Okay. This document says substantial preexisting relationships, correct?

A. Correct.
mM

Q. Did you tell Mr. Jackson ... I asked you this before, so if you still can't remember, I got it. Did
you tell Mr. Jackson that by preexisting relationships you meant I have a current consulting
agreement?
a

A. I don't understand your question.


Te

Q. Did you tell Michael Jackson before he signed this document giving you 10 percent of a
personal loan made to him, collateralized by his real property, that by preexisting relationship, I
mean right now, Michael, I'm a consultant getting $20,000 a month for Colony?
w.
ww
om
A. Michael Jackson came to me because of my relationship with Colony Capital. And I don't see
where preexisting or non-existing. He knew I was with Colony, and the reason he sent Jermaine
to me because to go to Colony.

n.c
Q. And how would he have known you were with Colony, by the way?

so
A. I don't know. You have to ask him that.

ck
Q. He didn't tell you?

A. Who?

lJa
Q. Mr. Jackson? ae
A. We're talk ... I'm talking about Jermaine, not about Michael.
ich
Q. Got it. So Jermaine came to you because he knew you were with Colony.

A. No. Jermaine came at the request of Michael Jackson, and Michael Jackson knew somehow
mM

that I am with Colony Capital. And since he was living in Las Vegas, he knew who Tom Barrack
is, and that's for the reason he knew that Tom Barrack is willing and able to do such a thing. But
he didn't know him. That's why they came to me.

Q. And he knew Tom because of the Hilton?


a
Te

A. Because of the Hilton and other issues. So he was partner in the station casinos all over Las
Vegas.
w.

Q. Okay. All right. I'm sorry. Now going back to the services provider agreement, that Page 3,
what was this document for? Take your time and review it if you want.
ww
om
A. What do you mean what was it for?

n.c
Q. What was the purpose?

A. Services ... providing services for Michael.

so
Q. Okay. And is there an exhibit attached to this services agreement that describes the services
you were to provide?

ck
A. No.

lJa
Q. Like in Schedule A? Yes?

A. Where is Schedule A?
ae
Q. It's the ... I think the fifth page, sir.
ich

A. Yes. Okay.
mM

Q. And it says you were to provide services, and then it has a list. I just want to go through the
list with you for a moment. First, it said, "Coordinate authorized Warner/Chappell releases."
What does that mean?

A. Hmm?
a
Te

Q. What does that mean? If I was to say to you, Mr. Tohme, I would like to pay you to be my
manager or for your personal services, please coordinate and authorize Warner/Chappell releases,
what do you understand ...
w.

A. I understand that ...


ww
om
Q. ... I'm asking you to do?

n.c
A. I understand that they ... there's a lot of companies ... a lot of ... they use Michael's music and
images. And so it's to approve it or not to approve it.

Q. In other words ... my words, so tell me if it fits ... if someone wants to license music that

so
Michael Jackson owns rights to ... publishings, compositions ... they would go to
Warner/Chappell, and Warner/Chappell would come to you to approve a license someone is
requesting from them to use whatever the song or composition might be.

ck
A. Correct.

lJa
Q. And did you do that during the time that you represented Mr. Jackson?
ae
A. Yes. I have done it until ... even I kept doing it after his death.
ich
Q. Okay.

A. Until the estate took over.


mM

Q. Okay. And the next thing is it says, "Assist in the event management." What did that mean?

A. Assist in event management, as it says ... like the concert, like anything, you know, to be there
with him, and to make sure everything is going the way he wants it.
a
Te

Q. Next, it says, "Assist in maintaining license agreement and relationship with licensors." What
does that mean?
w.

A. It's exactly what it says it means.

Q. Okay. Did you maintain any license agreements on his behalf?


ww
om
A. No.

n.c
Q. Did you maintain any relationships with licensors on Mr. Jackson's behalf?

so
A. Relationship with Sony and Warner Chappell and whoever they were working with.

Q. Other than Sony ... and that would be Sony Music, correct?

ck
A. Yes, sir.

lJa
Q. Other than Sony Music and Warner Chappell, were there any other license agreements that
you dealt with, to the best of your recollection?
ae
A. Well, we dealt with the Nederlander.
ich

Q. Was that a licensing deal?

A. Well, it's ... no, I don't ... I wouldn't call it a licensing deal, but it ...
mM

Q. Tell me what you would call a licensing deal, so I don't get mixed up.

A. Well, you won't get mixed up. You know better than me.
a
Te

Q. That's true.

A. So what I'm trying to say to you, as the document states. If somebody wants to license some
w.

of Michael Jackson's work or his music, or image, they call me. They first call Warner Chappell
and then they call me. We have the final word. Michael has the final say to say yes or no.
ww
om
Q. The next sentence reads, "Assist in coordinating payments to those providing services to
client including, without limitation, accountants, advisors, attorneys and assistants." I know I
read that correctly, but do you understand what that service meant?

n.c
A. I hope so.

so
Q. And did you do you deal with accountants, advisors, attorneys, and assistants?

ck
A. Yes.

Q. Did the attorneys basically work for you?

lJa
A. No, they work for Michael Jackson. ae
Q. So what was your role then?
ich
A. I was there to sit down and listen what's going on, and I used to pay the bills.

Q. And when you say you used to pay the bills ...
mM

A. I approved the bills.

Q. Okay. Yeah, I mean, you weren't signing checks?


a

A. I signed the check, not ... I only signed the check for the immediate help, the security, and his
Te

mother, family, et cetera, his needs.

Q. And, negotiate and manage housing and personal business matters. I assume that
w.

responsibility is how it reads.


ww
om
A. Yeah. We rent him a house, you know, found a house for him. He looked at it, he liked it, we
rented, we pay for it, signed the contract.

n.c
Q. That's the Carolwood house?

A. Yes, sir.

so
Q. Did you rent any other houses for him besides the Carolwood house?

ck
A. No.

lJa
Q. And the Carolwood house was a house in Holmby Hills and the lease was $100,000 a month?

A. Yes, sir.
ae
Q. How was Mr. Jackson able to pay for that?
ich

A. AEG paid.
mM

Q. Was that part of the cost they were entitled to recoup when the tour took place and revenue
started to come in?

A. Yes.
a

Q. "Coordinate with Sony Music regarding licensing, acquisitions and distributions." Did you
Te

work with Sony Music?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. All right. And when you talk about licensing, what are you referring to?
ww
om
A. Licensing for any new music. We were working on Sony at that time, Bandier, we were
looking at a new catalog of, I think, Sammy Davis Jr., and others that he sent me and told me that

n.c
... to check with Michael, they're going to buy it with Michael. So I told Michael and Michael
said, fine, go ahead and do it.

so
Q. But just so you and I are on the same page, were ... that reads, "coordinate with Sony Music."
You were describing a potential purchase by Sony/ATV, different from Sony Music, correct?

ck
A. Right.

lJa
Q. And although it's not on this list, part of what you did was participate on Michael's behalf
with respect to Sony ATV business. Is that correct?

A. Right.
ae
Q. And Sony/ATV was a ... kind of a operating business. That is it went out and sold, and bought
ich
publishing, and publishers and writers, correct?

A. Yes.
mM

Q. And then, next, it says "Negotiate product placements, memorabilia, licensing arrangements
and animation projects." Pretty clear, so we both know what that means, right?

A. Right.
a
Te

Q. Were you able to, during the time you worked with Mr. Jackson, negotiate any product
placements?
w.

A. Yeah. We negotiate the ... we were working as I said earlier, in regard to the Nike shoes, the
Moonwalk. We were working, not me at that time, I told Randy to do it, negotiating with
bravdo ... Bravado, whatever it is.
ww
om
Q. You mean, are you talking about the tour merchandise deal?

n.c
A. Yes. And then we did the Nederlander deal and we were working with Mr. Howard on the
Thriller show.

so
Q. Heyward.

ck
A. Heyward, I mean.

lJa
Q. H-E-Y-W-A-R-D.

A. Right. Right. Andy Heyward. ae


Q. And Andy eventually backed out of doing that show, right?
ich

A. I don't know if he backed out. Michael passed away, and then everything stopped.

Q. Didn't Andy send you an email saying he no longer felt he wanted to work on the show?
mM

A. I think I recall something like that, yes, sir.

Q. And wasn't part of the issue of the animation that you had to provide, you being, you know,
a

your client and what you were representing, you had to provide certain rights to Thriller that you
were unable to provide?
Te

A. Well, there was an issue with it with Landis as I stated earlier, and you're aware of it and
maybe this was part of it, yes.
w.

Q. Wasn't there also a ... an issue with Rod Temperton?


ww
om
A. No. Rod, he didn't ... Rod at that time, in the beginning, he didn't want to cooperate with
Michael, but then after a few weeks Michael spoke to him and when we were in London he
spoke to him and he spoke to his wife and then he changed his mind. But I think it was maybe

n.c
too late already.

Q. And the ... well, I mean it ... the bottom line was that animation project never happened and

so
Mr. Heyward backed out, correct?

A. Yes.

ck
Q. Okay. With respect to the shoes, let's talk about the shoes for a moment. You were contacted
by, and had a meeting with, I think, with somebody named Denis Dekovic, correct?

lJa
A. Denis? Yes. He's from Nike. ae
Q. From Nike.
ich
A. Yes.

Q. And did Denis tell you that he worked at Nike, but this was a project he was doing on his
mM

own, and not connected with Nike?

A. No, I don't recall he told me that. I don't remember he told me that.

Q. Do you know that Nike sued Denis and Mr. Du Soleil, his ... one of his partners ...
a
Te

A. I am aware that they ...


w.

Q. ... because they were doing ...

A. I heard that he was sued by Nike, but I don't know why.


ww
om
Q. And ... well, did you hear that he was sued because they were talking about launching a shoe
called the Moonwalker outside of their responsibilities at Nike?

n.c
A. I didn't know that.

so
Q. And they were looking for investors.

ck
A. No, sir, I didn't know that.

lJa
Q. Did Mr. Dekovic ever tell you he was looking for investors?

A. I can't remember what he told me. ae


Q. Okay. So did you think you were dealing with Nike?
ich

A. Yes.

Q. By the way, speaking of think of who you're dealing with, when you had the ... you had one
mM

phone call with Jack Wishna, correct?

A. No, more than one, maybe three times.


a

Q. And you told me at your deposition that you thought Jack Wishna worked for Cirque. Isn't
that correct?
Te

A. Yes.
w.

Q. And since then you've learned ...


ww
om
A. That's what he told me. He told me he has a relationship with Cirque du Soleil.

n.c
Q. Well, you told me that he worked for Cirque, didn't you?

A. Yeah. I could say that, yes.

so
Q. Okay. But you made a mistake. I'm not ... I'm not saying it's intentional, you were mistaken. I
will use different language. You were mistaken and it turned out Wishna didn't work for Cirque.

ck
A. No. I was not mistaken Mr. Weltzman, he told me he worked with Cirque du Soleil and he has
a huge company in Las Vegas and he mentioned a dear friend of mine that he vouched for him

lJa
who lives in Vegas and ...

Q. And other than the one or two calls you had with Wishna you never heard from anyone again
with respect to that project, right?
ae
ich
A. No. He flew to Los Angeles.

Q. Did he meet with you?


mM

A. I can't ... I think I met him, or I can't remember, but he flew to L

A. No, I didn't meet, because he flew to L


a

A. I remember that ... to what ... to see me and then I didn't see him.
Te

Q. I mean you did ...


w.

A. I did not.
ww

Q. Do you remember telling me at your deposition you never met with ...
om
A. I did not. No. I just said that.

n.c
Q. And didn't the deal then, to use your words, went dead?

so
A. Yeah. Deal went through. I mean he died.

Q. No. I'm not talking about Jack dying because Mr. Wishna died after ...

ck
A. No, no I'm talking about Mr. Jackson.

lJa
Q. While Mr. Jackson was alive, you didn't hear anything further from Mr. Wishna regarding
Cirque, correct? ae
A. No.
ich

Q. And you never ... didn't talk to anybody directly working for Cirque, did you?

A. No. But Dennis Hawk at that time he was ...


mM

Mr. Weitzman: I'm going to object and move to strike, a) nonresponsive b) hearsay, and ...

Judge Holmes: Non-responsive will do. It's stricken. Go ahead.


a
Te

Mr. Weitzman: One for two. Okay.

Mr. Weitzman:
w.

Q. You personally, never talked to anyone from Cirque did you?

A. No, sir.
ww
om
Q. And you personally, never heard from anyone from Cirque again after the Wishna contact,
correct?

n.c
A. I heard from people from the MGM Hotel.

so
Q. Just correct me if I'm wrong, is the MGM Hotel the same as Cirque du Soleil?

ck
A. No. Cirque du Soleil is a show, and the MGM Hotel is a hotel.

lJa
Q. Okay. Let's talk about the Broadway play for a moment. The Broadway play was a deal that
involved creating a musical stage play around Thriller, is that correct?

A. Yes.
ae
Q. And the musical stage play also required from you, and by you I mean the global you, Mr.
ich
Jackson and your team, to provide to provide the rights to Thriller, and other Rod Temperton
songs. Is that correct?

A. Correct.
mM

Q. And you actually signed the deal to create this musical stage play, correct?

A. Well, Michael Jackson signed it, not me.


a
Te

Q. Michael Jackson signed it?

A. Yes, sir.
w.
ww
om
Q. And the Rod Temperton songs, basically Thriller, and I think there were two other songs, or
three other songs, I think one from the Off The Wall album, none of those were delivered at the
time that contract was in effect, correct?

n.c
A. Well, at that time we did it to know what kind of material Mr. Nederlander need. So the deal
was signed without any demand for any material from Michael Jackson at that time.

so
Q. And Michael Jackson was not going to be a part of that play, that he wasn't going to perform?

ck
A. No, of course not.

lJa
Q. And when you say, of course not because is it your understanding that Michael, at this stage,
going to be performing live on Broadway?
ae
A. Well, he's not ... Michael, you know after the ... after what happened to him in Santa Barbara
and he left the country, he did not want to perform in the United State. He thought that he was
really - - he was really badly hurt. He was very upset and ... about what the media wrote about
ich
him and this. And he thought, like, people against him. Try to just ... to destroy him and destroy
his image. So that's why he didn't want to perform in the United State, and that's why when AEG
start talking to us in regard to having a concert, he wanted to do it in England.
mM

Q. So whatever the conversation was with the Nederlander, it didn't involve Mr. Jackson
performing in that show, correct?

A. Correct.
a

Q. So, and again I noticed the service agreement and the ... I'm sorry, the finder's fee in the
Te

services agreement, do you have those in front of you?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. Okay. I just want to go back for a moment to that, because we went through the services on
the list, and the last in schedule A, service you were supposed to perform pursuant to the
ww
om
agreement, is assist in live and taped performance, motion picture and music career issues. And
did you try to do that while you worked with Michael Jackson?

n.c
A. Yes, I did. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, going to the front page of this agreement, Paragraph 2.1, contract price, it also

so
indicates you were to receive a monthly fee of $35,000, correct?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. And that was used for expenses of the business, correct?

lJa
A. Right. ae
Q. And it also says you're to receive, in Paragraph 2.1, about three lines up from the bottom, 15
percent of all gross compensation received by client during the term of this agreement. Is that
ich
what it says?

A. Yes.
mM

Q. And the term of this agreement ran how long, sir, 3.1 Paragraph, Page 2. Did it terminate if
either party wished to terminate?

A. I'm sorry, I don't know where you're at.


a
Te

Q. Three point one, Page 2, 3.1, top of the page, it says term.

A. Three point one. Okay.


w.

Q. So ... why don't you just read that paragraph to yourself and then I'll ask you again if my
understanding is the same as yours. Have you had a chance to review it, Mr. Tohme?
ww
om
A. Yes.

n.c
Q. Okay. Does this basically say that either party can terminate this agreement by written notice
to the other?

so
A. Yes.

ck
Mr. Weitzman:

lJa
A. little glitch, Mr. Tohme, hang on one second.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 675-P is marked for identification


ae
Mr. Weitzman: Okay. Would you ... do you have two copies?
ich

Court Clerk: Yes.

Mr. Weitzman: Publish one to the witness. Thank you.


mM

A. Thank you.

Mr. Weitzman: Now ... of course that's for power of attorney.


a
Te

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Mr. Tohme, this revocation of your power of attorney, which you spoke about earlier this
morning, dated April 14th, 2009, there seems to be a notary stamp, and then Michael Jackson's
signature. Did you receive that on or about April 14th, 2009?
w.

A. No.
ww
om
Q. When is the first time you saw this?

n.c
A. Later from maybe from you or somebody else, I can't remember.

so
Q. Mr. Tohme, this is a document marked April 22nd ... or dated, sorry, April 22nd, 2009. It's
Exhibit number ...

ck
Court Clerk: 676.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Six seventy six, and it reads ... and it's to Randy Phillips, and it reads, "Dear Randy, This
letter shall serve to confirm that I am not using Dr. Tohme, for tour production management
services and that I do not intend to use Dr. Tohme in the future for tour production and
ae
management services, or with respect to other event related matters. Therefore, you are not
authorized to pay Dr. Tohme or any of his affiliated companies for any such services in
connection with my upcoming tour, or any future tours or other events or pursuant to the
ich
production management agreement dated January 24th, 2009." This refers to a document
different than your services agreement, correct? That is, it refers to the producers management
agreement, which is different from your services agreement, correct?
mM

A. Yeah. What are you trying to tell me?

Q. I'm actually ... well, you don't want to know what I'm trying to tell you.
a

A. No, but I'm saying to you, you gave me this letter.


Te

Q. Yeah.
w.

A. Okay.

Q. I want to know if you've ever seen it before today.


ww
om
A. Yeah, I've seen it before today.

n.c
Q. When's the first time you saw it?

so
A. After Michael's death.

Q. Okay.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Six seven seven. Is this last one?

lJa
Court Clerk: Exhibit 677-P is marked for identification

Mr. Weitzman:
ae
ich
Q. This is a letter dated May 2nd, 2009, To Whom It May Concern, and it reads, "The purpose of
this letter is to confirm that I am appointing Frank DiLeo as one of my new representatives and
tour manager. Mr. DiLeo has my authorization to conduct business matters on my behalf only
when instructed. Thank you for your cooperation." Mr. Tohme, when is the first time you recall
seeing this document?
mM

A. I've never seen it.

Mr. Weitzman: Six seven eight. Is what .. 678 or ...


a
Te

Court Clerk: Six seven eight is next in order.

A. Thank you.
w.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 678-P is marked for identification.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman:

n.c
Q. Mr. Tohme, Exhibit 678 dated May 5th, 2009 reads as follows, "At my direct ..." "To Whom It
May Concern, At my direction and effective immediately, Dr. Tohme R. Tohme is no longer
authorized to represent me in any capacity nor conduct any personal or professional business on
my behalf." Signature ... there's a, it looks like a handwritten signature, and then the words

so
Michael Jackson. Do you remember seeing this document before today?

A. I've seen it, yes.

ck
Q. Do you remember when you saw it?

lJa
A. After his death, and this is not Michael Jackson.
ae
Q. When you say not Michael Jackson, you mean in your opinion, it's not Michael Jackson's
signature?
ich
A. Exactly. And you know the trail of the paper, it all came in the same week.

Q. You mean it all came ...


mM

A. In the first week of May.

Q. ... no, it didn't come the same week.


a
Te

A. From Mr. DiLeo.

Q. There's only seven days in a week.


w.

A. Huh?
ww
om
Q. It didn't come in the same week, there's only seven days in a week.

n.c
A. Yeah, seven days. It's May 2nd and May ... oh, and April 22nd, and May 5th, talking about the
trail of Frank DiLeo.

Q. I know you think I can't read a calendar, but they don't ... they didn't come within seven days.

so
A. You're right.

ck
Q. A bigger spread, right?

lJa
A. You're right. I made a mistake.
ae
Mr. Weitzman: One last one. So ... is ... yeah.

Mr. Weitzman:
ich

Q. Is it your testimony today, that you never saw any of these revocations of power of attorney or
relieving you of your responsibilities until Michael passed away?
mM

A. Right.

Q. Did anyone tell you in mid April that Michael wanted to make a change in his management?
a

A. No.
Te

Q. So you ... do you email?


w.

A. What?
ww
om
Q. You email, correct?

n.c
A. Yeah.

Q. And you type and exchange email?

so
A. No. I don't type, I have someone to type for me. I type with one finger.

ck
Q. Slowly. But do you do it yourself sometimes?

lJa
A. Yes.

Q. Okay.
ae
Mr. Weitzman: So I would like this marked 679, next in order, please.
ich

Court Clerk: Exhibit 2 ... sorry, 679-P is marked for identification.

Mr. Weitzman:
mM

Q. Mr. Tohme, this Exhibit 679 is an email exchange between you and Randy Phillips starting
with an email you sent to Randy Phillips dated April 25th, 2009. Do you recall sending this
email? You can take a minute and read it, if you want, first to refresh your memory.
a

A. Okay.
Te

Q. Have you read it?


w.

A. Yeah.
ww
om
Q. Do you recall sending the email to Mr. Phillips?

n.c
A. I think I dictated this email, yes.

Q. Okay. Yeah, it would be impressive if you typed it, or probably somebody typed this for you.
Okay. So is it fair to say this email was sent because somebody had either told you or you had

so
heard or read that you were being replaced by Michael?

ck
A. No. The reason for this email was, as I told you earlier, because of that guy, Arfak Hussein. I
did not go to the house where Michael reside, and I told him that I will not come back until he
get rid of him. And then, suddenly, I heard Frank DiLeo show up, this show up et cetera, and
they were all working on Michael. And so therefore, since I wasn't there with him and as, you

lJa
know, Michael Jackson a lot of people put words in his ears, so I was lost in what's going on with
me and Michael. And I spoke to Michael on the phone and he never said to me anything that I
am terminated or I'm out or anything of that sort. And then he asked for me to go and meet with
him. I did not call him to ask, you know, and he told me, I need you, I want you, and the witness
ae
for that is Randy Phillips. And then they said why don't you take care of all the stuff that you're
doing with Michael and let Frank DiLeo ... I said no I'm not going to work with Frank DiLeo. I'm
not going to work with anybody. So I will listen to Michael, and I will ... the only way to solve
ich
this issue of communications to me to sit face to face with Michael.

Q. And then, Randy Phillips replied to you as follows, on the top of this document. It says, "Doc,
mM

the problem is MJ. His position and attitude changes from day to day. I am not sure what he
actually wants, so that is why I am recommending getting a business arrangement set with him,
and then work together on a project by project basis at his solicitation. At this point, he has told
Paul and me that he doesn't want you to manage him. I'm not sure he wants Frank to manage him
either. He tends to be suspicious of everyone and their motivations. It is very hard for you or any
of us to function like this." Do you remember getting that response from Mr. Phillips?
a
Te

A. Yes.

Q. And who's Paul, if you know, that he's referring to?


w.

A. It would be Paul Gongaware.


ww
om
Q. Okay. And so this response from Mr. Phillips on April 25th, 2009 to you, let you know that at
some point, which I assume was recent in time to writing this email, Michael told Paul and
Randy Phillips that he didn't want you to manage him.

n.c
A. Well, Michael will tell you something in the morning and he change his mind at night.

so
Q. Okay.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, I would like to move all of the recent exhibits into evidence.

Mr. Voth: Objection, Your Honor, regarding the exhibits marked for identification 675-P through

lJa
679-P.

Judge Holmes: Wait, slow down.


ae
Mr. Voth: These documents were never exchanged with respondent. The parties have worked
ich
very close together in timely exchanging all documents. Respondent also objections on lack of
authentication.

Mr. Weitzman: Well, these aren't documents ...


mM

Mr. Voth: And to be given these documents ...

Mr. Weitzman: Sorry.


a
Te

Judge Holmes: I believe they all come in.

Court Clerk: Did you say they were all in?


w.

Judge Holmes: They are all in.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: Yes.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. So Mr. Tohme, you did ... did you receive a medical degree from a university in Barcelona?

so
A. No.

Q. Did you receive a PhD in economics from the American University in Beirut, Lebanon?

ck
A. I went there, but I did not finish.

lJa
Q. Do you remember having your deposition taken in the Allgood matter on June 2nd, 2010 in
litigation between Allgood and the Estate of Michael Jackson?
ae
A. Yeah. I was your witness.
ich

Q. Yes, you were my witness.

A. Yeah. And the question was asked after the ... after ... when you told me. Kathy Jorrie to ask
mM

me that. You told Kathy Jorrie to ask me this question, and it was after we finish the deposition,
and I corrected this deposition and I gave it to my attorney.

Q. So at the deposition, Ms. Jorrie asked you, what your education, high school and college was,
and you remember that? And you answered, I have a high school, I have a college degree, I have
a

a medical degree, I have an economics degree. Do you remember giving her those answers?
Te

A. I don't remember that. I could well have said that.


w.

Q. Do you remember her, that is Ms. Jorrie, saying to you, well tell us what it is, here is your
chance. And you said, I have an M.D. degree, and I have a PhD in economics. Did you give her
those answers?
ww
om
A. Yes.

n.c
Q. And do you remember her asking when did you receive your last degree that you received,
was that your PhD in economics? And your answer was, yes. She asked what university and your
answer was, The American University. I don't know what year, and she asked you if it was the

so
American University in Beirut, Lebanon, and you said, uh-huh, which I think was yes.

A. Correct.

ck
Q. Okay. And then she asked you, that's a nice school, where did you receive your medical

lJa
degree and you said from Spain. She said which university, you said Barcelona, correct?

A. Correct.
ae
Q. And those answers to those questions, even though you were under oath, were not correct,
right?
ich

A. Well, first of all let me remind you, that I was your witness on that ...
mM

Q. By the way ...

A. Excuse me.
a

Q. You were and you testified fine except for this.


Te

A. Yeah. Okay. Excuse me, let me finish. First of all, the reason I answered the way I answered,
to clear it up, because you guys hired a private investigator that put a wanted ad on me on the
Internet and I ...
w.

Q. When you say you guys, I know you're not referring to me.
ww
om
A. The Estate. The Estate, you know, could be not you or anybody, you torture me in a way, in
the media. You send your investigator to Sacramento to a girl I met 35 years ago and she's

n.c
married and she's a grandmother, and we were married for short period of time, and then our
parents dissolved the marriage. He went, after 35 years, he went to Sacramento to interview this
woman to find anything about me. And the reason for these answers because I don't want you to
know, because you put all things about me asking all kind of question about me in the media. I'm

so
a very highly educated person, I speak many languages. Okay. And I don't know what else to tell
you.

ck
Q. It's a good opener.

lJa
A. Whatever.

Mr. Weitzman: Yeah. Can we mark this deposition transcript are shall we just extract the pages?
ae
Judge Holmes: We can mark the whole thing.
ich

Mr. Weitzman: All right.


mM

Judge Holmes: Whatever is easier.

A. Your Honor, this was corrected and sent back to them.

Mr. Weitzman: I'm going to move its admittance.


a
Te

Court Clerk: Exhibit 680-P is marked for identification.

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, I'm going to object to the admission of this. I don't think there's a prior ...
w.

Judge Holmes: At least so far. We'll see if he has any reasons for it.
ww
om
Mr. Voth: All right.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: Okay.

so
Mr. Weitzman:

Q. Going back to 672, that's the finder's fee on Neverland and the services agreement, Mr.

ck
Tohme, again, the services agreement which is the third page in that exhibit, where it says,
contract price 2.1. I point you now to the last paragraph that starts with the word, additionally.
Are you with me? Yes? Just tell me when you're there.

lJa
A. Just tell you what?

Q. Are you there?


ae
ich
A. Which one, now?

Q. It's Page 3 of Exhibit 672-R, it's 2.1, the last paragraph where it says, "contract price," and it's
the conveniently highlighted last sentence. It reads, "Additionally with regard to the services
mM

outlined in this agreement, service provider shall receive 15 percent of all gross compensation
received by client for his services within the entertainment industry including live performances,
merchandising, electronic arts, recorded and live telecasts, motion pictures, and animation
projects." Did I read that correctly? Yes?
a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. Okay. So prior to Mr. Jackson dying did you ... did he receive any money for live
performances that you commissioned?
w.

A. I don't understand your question.


ww
om
Q. Did you commission 15 percent of monies Mr. Jackson received for any live performances
before he died?

n.c
A. No. He didn't have a chance to perform.

Q. So you did not commission, before he died, any money from live performances that he

so
received?

ck
A. No.

Q. Did you receive any commission for merchandise for money that Michael Jackson received

lJa
for merchandising before he died?

A. No.
ae
Q. Did you receive any commission, or pardon me. Did you commission any money that
ich
Michael Jackson received for participating in any electronic arts program or opportunity?

A. No.
mM

Q. Did you commission any money that Michael Jackson received for participating in any
recorded or live telecast?

A. No.
a
Te

Q. Did you commission any money received by Michael Jackson before he died, for any motion
pictures he appeared in?
w.

A. No.
ww
om
Q. Did you commission any monies received by Michael Jackson before he died for participating
in any animation projects?

n.c
A. No.

Q. Okay.

so
ck
Mr. Weitzman:

lJa
Q. Mr. Tohme, I put before you ... I know you have a whole stack of documents there, but I put
before you the Sycamore Valley Ranch Company LLC. I don't remember what exhibit number
it's at.
ae
Mr. Camp: 674-P.
ich

Mr. Weitzman: Right. It'll just be a moment.


mM

Mr. Weitzman:

Q. 674-P, if you have that in front of you, sir.

A. 6
a
Te

Q. 674 ... it's the thick Sycamore Valley Ranch Company ...

A. Uh-huh.
w.

Q. ... LLC. And I wanted to refer you to Section ... or Paragraph C just about 10 percent, 15, 13.5
ww

percent, whatever, from the top, C. It says Jackson Member on it.


om
A. Yes.

n.c
Q. And I would like to read to you, sir, the first sentence and see if that refreshes your memory
on what happened over this transaction.

so
Mr. Weitzman: If I might, Your Honor.

ck
Mr. Weitzman:

lJa
Q. It says, "Jackson Member, simultaneously with the execution and delivery of this agreement
and each of the transaction documents, Jackson Member will contribute the company by
delivering it escrow fee simple title to an ownership of the property together with all right title
and interest, if any, of Jackson Member in and unto any unpaid award made or to be made for the
ae
taking by condemnation or otherwise." Those words that I read, do they help refresh your
memory that in the November 2008 agreement for the Sycamore Valley Ranch Company LLC,
he had to transfer ownership of the Neverland Ranch to the Sycamore Valley Limited Liability
Company?
ich

A. Yeah.
mM

Q. And is this also the document, if you look at the ... halfway down on the page, where ...

A. What page are you at, please?


a

Q. Same page, sir, Page 26. Now, I'm actually referencing something you referenced earlier,
Te

which was the removal of excluded personal property.

A. Mm-hmm.
w.

Q. Is this the paragraph that you had reconfigured to allow Mr. Jackson to remove his personal
property from the ranch?
ww
om
A. This what was agreed on.

n.c
Q. But originally, I think you told us this morning that Colony had included the personal
property and you were ...

so
A. Yes, they did in a different ...

ck
Q. ... you were able to ...

lJa
A. ... option.

Q. ... change that. ae


A. No. I have ... we have ... I have a document to the fact that they want all the property. And
then we challenged that, and I spoke to Tom Barrack. And he told Paul Fuhrman to change it, to
ich
walk away from it.

Q. And this is the change in the document, correct?


mM

A. I think so.

Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Okay. The finder's fee that we spoke about, the May 2nd, 2008, finder's
fee ... actually, it doesn't say finder's fee, but it's Exhibit B, the first page of 672-R where it refers
a

to 10 percent fee. You don't have a broker's license, do you?


Te

A. No.
w.

Q. And do you have any license dealing with real estate?

A. Okay.
ww
om
Q. So after the Neverland Ranch transaction, did ... were you then kind of in full management of
Michael Jackson?

n.c
A. After the Neverland?

so
Q. Yes. You ... in other words, Mr. Barrack paid off the Fortress loan, and that was around ... I
believe it was May 2008. And by that time, were you in the midst of managing Michael Jackson?

ck
A. Well, we were in discussion about it, but I was not his manager then.

lJa
Q. When did you begin to manage him?

A. If you look at the similars .. agreement in that management agreement, it tells you. June or
July.
ae
ich
Q. So before that management agreement, you were not in ... for the actual signing of that
agreement, you were not involved in any management responsibilities?

A. Well, I was helping him in his ... you know, his daily affair ... living affairs. That's all.
mM

Q. Okay. So after that agreement was signed, do you recall what you first did with respect to the
management part of your responsibilities? And I'm talking about the entertainment-related
responsibility.
a

A. What did I do?


Te

Q. Yeah.
w.

A. After signing the management agreement?


ww
om
Q. Yes. What did you do?

n.c
A. Well, as I told you earlier, we start talking to AEG. We start talking to Live Nation. We still
know ... then we still know the door was open to talk to other ... whoever there to ... when I work
with Michael.

so
Q. Okay. You had conversation with Live Nation. You had conversations with AEG. You also
told us you started to clean house, correct?

ck
A. Right.

lJa
Q. And did you actually ... and I'm not being facetious when I ask you this question ... did you
actually go into Michael Jackson's living space and clean some things out?

A. Yes.
ae
ich
Q. What is it you cleaned out?

A. Some pain killers that ... and some pills.


mM

Q. Medication, you mean.

A. Medication, yeah.
a

Q. Did you go into the ... I'm sorry. How ... rather than me guessing, how did that work? I mean,
Te

how did you do that?

A. Well, I ... you know, I mean, he was ... from what I observe, he was taking some pills. He's
w.

claim that it's a pain killer for his foot. And I told him he should get out of everything. And if you
have any pain, you should ... I'll take you to a doctor or bring you a doctor to the house, and he
can check you out. And if you need any medication for that purpose, he will give it to you. Then
I took everything that he has and dump it.
ww
om
Q. And do you recall if he said anything when you did that?

n.c
A. I'm sorry?

so
Q. Do you recall if he said anything to you when you ...

A. No, he just ...

ck
Q. ... did that?

lJa
A. No, he just looked at me and smiled.
ae
Q. Okay. Do you know whether he continued to use pain killers or any type of medication as the
months went on after that incident?
ich

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Okay. And when you say not to your knowledge, is it fair to say if he did you didn't see it, you
mM

never ... and you never knew about it?

A. Yeah, I never seen him taking anything.


a

Q. So for those first few months, as I understand it ... but I'm asking you ... were ... did he
continue to live in Las Vegas?
Te

A. At that time, yeah, he was still in Las Vegas.


w.

Q. And when did the conversations begin to take place about buying Prince Jeffries house?
ww
om
A. Right after, I think, when we were working on Neverland. I mean, he loved that house. And
he asked to spend some nights there, and it was arranged. He spent a couple of nights in the
house. And he loved the house. He want the house. That's all he wanted.

n.c
Q. And was the house for sale?

so
A. It wasn't on the market, but it was, you know, for the right price at that time.

ck
Q. Do you recall what the price was?

A. Well, they were asking ... (inaudible) were asking over $100 million. The house cost millions

lJa
and millions of dollars. But we came to a ... I think an agreement for around 45 million or 50
million. I can't recall the correct number.
ae
Q. And when you came to some agreement ... I'm not ... by the way, you're not talking about a
deal. You're just talking about agreeing on some price to see if you could buy it or not.
ich
A. Yes.

Q. All right. And do you recall when you reached an agreement on what this ... what a fair sales
mM

price would be?

A. Way later on, way later.

Q. Later in 2008?
a
Te

A. Yeah, way, yeah, or early 2009. I can't recall the exact date. But he kept pushing. He want the
house. That's all he want is the house.
w.

Q. But at the time, he didn't have the money to buy the house, correct?
ww
om
A. Well, he had ... I mean, I don't know when you say all those phrase he doesn't have any
money. He didn't have money to buy the house, you know, as far as I know, but he had a lot of
assets.

n.c
Q. So did you tell him, Michael, we can't afford this house now?

so
A. Well, when he wanted ... he wanted also to buy a house in Los Angeles. And so we saw a
house. At that time, they were asking $100 million. And ...

ck
Q. In Los Angeles?

lJa
A. In Los Angeles. So I told him you can't buy this house and buy that house. And we saw a
house, and I want ... I sought me Randy Phillips in Bel Air. And so he asked me. He said can you
talk to the guy, let me spend the night. I want to see ... he's a spiritual guy. He said I want to feel
the house. So then I arranged for him to stay there. Then the following morning, he said to me,
ae
you know, no, I don't want to stay here. This house is no good for me. It's the spirit. It's not there
for me.
ich

Q. And do you remember where that house was located?

A. In Bel Air on Nimes Way.


mM

Q. Okay. Where ... Palomino ... did you attempt to talk Michael to move out of Palomino in Las
Vegas and to Los Angeles?
a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. And how did he finally end up moving to Los Angeles?


w.

A. Well, in the beginning, he was a little hesitant. He didn't really want to come back. But then
after we stopped talking about him coming back to work and do his old stuff, he said fine. And
then what really did it, also, is that, as I told you before, that he received a letter from the school
ww
om
across the street and et cetera. So he called me. He was crying. So I immediately went to Vegas
and brought him in to Los Angeles.

n.c
Q. And the letters dealt with the allegations that have kind of haunted him for a number of years,
correct?

so
A. Yes.

ck
Q. By the way, is it ... is that ... that's a fair statement to use, that these allegations haunted him
probably up until the day he died, right?

lJa
Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for speculation.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


ae
Mr. Weitzman:
ich

A. I mean, whenever the subject comes up, of course, he felt bad about it.
mM

Q. But did you feel that these allegations haunted him?

A. I don't understand what you mean by haunted him.

Q. Well ...
a
Te

A. I mean, he wasn't jumping up and down every day and telling me that, you know, what they
did to me is not acceptable.
w.

Q. Do you remember being asked the following questions and giving the following answers at
Page 29, Line 10 to 15 of your deposition on January 16, 2017, asked by me? It's Page 29. It's
Lines 10 to 14. Oh, in this case, yeah, deposition in this case. Thank you. Question at Line 10:
ww
om
"And the child molestation allegations continue to kind of ... " "ANSWER: Haunt him."
Question by me: "Haunt him. That's actually a good phrase." "ANSWER: Yes." Do you
remember my asking you that question, you actually describing to me that they ... those

n.c
allegations, which none of us believe ... just thought I need to say that for the record ...

A. Right. It's ...

so
Q. ... continue to haunt him?

ck
A. Yeah, continue to haunt him. It's the way ... how you want to phrase haunted.

lJa
Q. So when you first started working with Michael, he didn't have any endorsement deals, did
he?

A. At that time?
ae
ich
Q. Yes.

A. I don't remember, but I remember that Peter Lopez was working with Pepsi-Cola at that time
for some kind of endorsement.
mM

Mr. Weitzman: So could we go to Page 32, Line 6 of Mr. Tohme's deposition? In this case.

Mr. Weitzman:
a
Te

Q. A question by me to you. "QUESTION: When you first began working with Michael, he
didn't have any endorsement deals, did he, if you know?" "ANSWER: At that time, there was no
endorsement because Michael was away for so long." Do you remember my asking you that
question and giving that answer?
w.

A. Yeah, it's correct. Yeah, it's not changing.


ww
om
Q. Okay. Well, you had a better memory then, but you're not changing it, correct?

n.c
A. Correct

Q. All right. So you've told us about some of the things you worked on. In or about April, were
you informed that Frank DiLeo was going to become involved?

so
A. Who's on trial here? Me or the estate?

ck
Judge Holmes: Please answer ...

lJa
A. I thought I am here ...
ae
Judge Holmes: Please answer the question, Mr. Tohme.

Mr. Weitzman:
ich

Q. By the way, you are not.


mM

A. Okay. Thank you.

Q. So in or around April 2009, were you informed that Frank DiLeo was going to work with
Michael in some fashion?
a

A. I heard it somewhere, yes.


Te

Q. And as you sit there now, do you recall who you heard that from or how you heard it?
w.

A. I think I heard it firsthand from Randy Phillips. He told me, you know, Frank DiLeo,
somehow he showed up, something to that fact. And that's all I learned at that time.
ww
om
Q. And had you met Frank up until that time?

n.c
A. No.

so
Q. Did you ever end up working with Frank on Michael's behalf?

A. No.

ck
Q. Did you have a meeting at Staples Center with Michael Kane and Randy Phillips and Michael

lJa
Jackson and Frank DiLeo ...

A. Yes. ae
Q. ... a few days before he died? And at that meeting, were you asked by Michael to turn over the
money you were holding to Michael Kane?
ich

A. No, never happened.


mM

Q. So was the only time you turned the money over after I asked you to turn it over?

A. I'm sorry. I missed ... what is ...


a

Q. The only time you turned the money over after Michael died when I asked you ... remember, I
told you I was going to go to court if you didn't turn it over?
Te

A. Yeah, and I told you at that time ... if you remember, I told you my wife was very sick, and I
went to St. John Hospital.
w.

Q. I remember that.
ww
om
A. And then, you know ... and then you sent me that nasty email that you're going to go to court.
So what I'm saying ...

n.c
Q. Come on. It was a lawyer email.

A. Huh? No. But I'm saying to you is the money ... I didn't hold the ... I didn't have ... I had this

so
money for over almost year and a half. And when he passed away, I didn't know who's who,
where ... who to turn ... who to give the money to. And then when it decided that ... by the court
that Michael ... I mean John Branca and John McClain are the trustee, I spoke to my attorney,

ck
Paul Malingagio. He said don't give them the money. Keep the money. But I overruled him, and I
turned the money to the estate. That's all to it. This is what happened exactly.

lJa
Q. So did ... do you remember that the email you got from me was on or about July 15th?

A. I can't remember the date.


ae
Q. But after you got it, you did cause the money to be wired into the ...
ich

A. Of course, yes.
mM

Q. ... estate account. And how much did you cause to be wired into the estate account?

A. I can't remember the exact amount. It was over $5 million, I believe.

Q. Okay. And then after a little bit later on, you handed me a check for a few thousand additional
a

monies, correct?
Te

A. Yes, sir.
w.

Q. Okay. Films ... was Michael Jackson ... well, let me ask a different question. Did ... what did
Michael Jackson tell you about his desire to be in the film business?
ww
om
A. He was eager to be in the movie business. He wants to make films. And he told me after this
tour I'm not going to do it anymore. I just want to concentrate on making movies. And in fact, he
was teaching his children how to make movies. And we hire a professor from USC film school.

n.c
And he used to come to the hotel. And the Professor Uno, his name, he told me. He said how can
I teach four years old and seven years old how to direct and make movies. So ... but this was his
mission. That's all he wants to do after doing the tour and ... the This Is It tour in London, is to
move into making movies.

so
Q. And isn't it true that you had to convince him the only way he could make money was to go
back and do a live performance and he resisted?

ck
A. Well, in the beginning, he resisted, yes. But then when ...

lJa
Q. What is it you told him that got him to ... that overcame his resistance?
ae
A. Well, I told him there is ... you know, there is ... you know, I mean, I told him that he still ...
you know, a lot of people love him in the whole world, and a lot of people would love to see him
back on stage. And he should go back. And if he doesn't do it now, he can't do it too much longer.
ich

Q. And what was the film he was working on?


mM

A. King Tut.

Q. And that ... he was going to produce the film? Or was he writing ...
a

A. He was to make the ...


Te

Q. ... and producing it?


w.

A. He was going to make the movie, and he was going to act as King Tut in it. He wants to act in
it.
ww
om
Q. Wasn't King Tut a child?

n.c
A. I'm sorry?

Q. Wasn't King Tut a younger man?

so
A. King Tut was King Tut. What I'm trying to say to you ...

ck
Q. You know what? Never mind with that answer. I'll move on. So it was Michael's idea that he
would help produce this movie and he would act in the film.

lJa
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was he going to direct it as well?


ae
A. I ... no, we were trying to reach Mr. Jackson ...
ich

Q. Peter?
mM

A. ... Peter Jackson.

Q. Yeah.
a

A. And I asked for the help of Mr. Joel Katz to reach out to him. And we reached out to him, and
the answer was he's ... was making three different movies and he was very busy and not able to
Te

work with Michael at that time.

Q. So anybody else you contacted to see if they had interest in the film?
w.

A. No.
ww
om
Q. You said that back in 2008, some of the lawyers you worked with were Peter Lopez, Greg
Cross, Londell McMillan, and David Dunn. Do you recall that earlier today?

n.c
A. Yes, sir. And Joel Katz.

so
Q. And Joel Katz.

ck
A. Yes, sir.

lJa
Q. And Joel was a lawyer at Greenberg Traurig in Atlanta, correct?

A. Yes. Correct. ae
Q. He's a music lawyer, correct?
ich

A. Yes.

Q. And Londell McMillan ... how did you meet Londell McMillan?
mM

A. After he learned that I became Michael Jackson's manager, he flew to Los Angeles to meet
with me.
a

Q. Basically, to pitch you on his getting involved with Michael?


Te

A. I'm sorry?
w.

Q. To pitch you ... to sell you into hiring him to work with Michael?

A. He was working with Michael at that time. But Michael asked me to fire him.
ww
om
Q. So did you?

n.c
A. At that time, I didn't do it immediately because we were ... he was involved in the case of
Sheik Abdullah in ...

so
Q. In London.

ck
A. ... in London. And so

lJa
Q. So in 2008, the ... Michael had four lawyers, as I understand it. Or ... well, I'm including
David Dunn, so four lawyers ... Peter Lopez, Greg Cross, Londell McMillan, and David Dunn,
correct?

A. And Dennis Hawk.


ae
ich
Q. And Dennis Hawk.

A. And Earl Goodman.


mM

Q. So part of the team involves some pretty competent lawyers, correct, based on your opinion?

A. Yes.
a

Q. And by the way, Greg Cross is one of the senior lawyers, litigators, at ...
Te

A. Dewey LaBoeuf, I think.


w.

Q. I thought he was at Venable, Greg Cross.


ww
om
A. Venable ... I'm sorry. Venable.

n.c
Q. Londell McMillan was at Dewey, correct?

A. Right, right. They went out of business.

so
Q. And then at that time in the summer of 2008, wasn't Steve Mortenson involved in the business
management end of representing Mr. Jackson?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. And Steve Mortenson works with Ron ...

A. Burkle.
ae
Q. ... Burkle. And can you tell us, if there's anybody here that doesn't know who Ron Burkle is,
ich
who Ron Burkle is?

A. Well, you know, he's a ... Ron Burkle is a billionaire, and he's involved in many business
mM

entity. He's involved in ... mostly in the grocery business.

Q. And these were all people ... for the most part, people who you knew, correct?

A. Yes.
a
Te

Q. So this was the team involved with Michael in the summer of 2008, correct?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. And what was the singular goal that you all had with respect to helping and/or servicing
ww

Michael Jackson?
om
A. To bring him back to what he was.

n.c
Q. And when you say bring him back to what he was, can you just tell me what you meant?

so
A. What I meant, you know, I ... he was ... as you know and everybody knows, he was the most
successful entertainer on the planet. And we want to bring the glory back to him because his ...
he was willing and able to do it.

ck
Q. By the way, do you know what this case is about?

lJa
A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know it has to do with the IRS trying to get more taxes from the Jackson estate?
ae
Mr. Voth: Objection, Your Honor. The witness just stated he doesn't know what it's about.
ich

Judge Holmes: I'll give him some leeway. Overruled.


mM

A. I'm sorry?

Judge Holmes: You can answer.


a

Mr. Weitzman:
Te

A. Say the question again.


w.

Q. Were you aware that this case involves the Internal Revenue Service, the government, trying
to get a substantial amount of taxes from the estate of Michael Jackson?
ww
om
A. No. I know that there's a litigation between the IRS and the estate of Michael Jackson, but I
did not know what ... what's the ... what's the situation, the problem. Nobody told me that they
want money from Michael.

n.c
Q. So when were you first contacted by the Internal Revenue Service to talk about their case
against Michael Jackson?

so
A. I don't remember exactly. My attorney, Jim Curry, called me, that he received the message
from somebody in the IRS.

ck
Q. And did he show you a letter that he received from the IRS?

lJa
A. I don't recall he showed me. I don't remember.
ae
Mr. Weitzman: Well, Your Honor, I'd like to have this marked next in order and place it before
Mr. Curry ... Mr. Curry ... forget that ... Mr. Tohme.
ich
Judge Holmes: Do you have a number?

Court Clerk: Exhibit 681-P is marked for identification


mM

Judge Holmes: Do you have a copy for me?

Court Clerk: No.


a
Te

Judge Holmes: Okay.

Judge Holmes: Back to your corner, Mr. Weitzman.


w.

Mr. Weitzman: Yes.


ww
om
Judge Holmes: You have the document on the screen.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman:

Q. Mr. Tohme, do you have that document? And if you do, could you just take a moment and
read it?

so
A. Yeah, I'm looking at it.

ck
Q. Have you seen that document before today?

lJa
A. I don't believe I've seen it. I don't remember if I've seen this document before.
ae
Q. Okay. Did you ... do you remember discussing the document with Mr. Malingagio or Mr.
Curry?
ich
A. I don't recall this document that was under discussion. All I remember that Mr. Curry contact
me and told me that there was something the IRS want to talk to me regarding the estate of
Michael Jackson.
mM

Q. And did you then meet with persons who you were told were affiliated with the Internal
Revenue Service?

A. Yes.
a
Te

Q. And do you recall about when that meeting took place ... not the date, but just an estimate of
time?
w.

A. Sometimes in the last part of 2016. I don't remember the exact date.
ww
om
Q. All right. So the date on the letter in front of you is October 12th, 2011, if you note. Do you
recall having a conversation with any of your attorneys dealing with the Internal Revenue
Service wanting to speak to you in 2011?

n.c
A. No. 2011? No.

so
Q. Okay. Do you recall providing ... just talking with your attorneys and providing responses to
the Internal Revenue Service sometime in 2011?

ck
A. 2011?

lJa
Q. Yeah.

A. The only thing I remember ... I don't know if it was in 2011. It wasn't this case. It was ... the
ae
IRS were asking about the ... what Michael Jackson gave me. And I gave them a list of ...a
description - - a picture of what he gave me.
ich
Q. All right. Well, that's ... that was ... that's kind of what this asked for, isn't it?

A. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember, really.


mM

Q. Okay. And who did you first speak to ...

A. Meghan .., yeah. Huh?


a
Te

Q. Who did you first speak to, if you recall, about this case?

A. About what?
w.

Q. Who did you first speak to, if you recall, with the IRS about this case?
ww
om
A. Let me clarify one thing before we go on.

n.c
Q. Sure.

A. This document here, it was in 20- ...

so
Mr. Voth: Respondent objects to this line of questioning. It's beyond the scope of Respondent's
direct.

ck
Judge Holmes: I'm hoping that he'll get around to it.

lJa
Mr. Voth: Okay.

Mr. Weitzman:
ae
Q. You can actually ... for me, it's okay if you just explain to me what you want to say.
ich

A. Well, about this document dated 2011. And this is ... I remember the lady now ... the lady's
name. I thought this document was related to the issue that we're sitting here today. Yes, I did see
mM

this document before. I'm sorry.

Q. It's okay. When did you first speak to somebody from the Internal Revenue Service?

A. In late 2016.
a
Te

Q. And who did you speak with, if you recall?

A. The only name I remember is Mr. Voth.


w.

Q. Okay. And any of the lawyers at the consult table that you recognize that you met before
ww

today and talked about this case?


om
A. The lady. And I don't remember anybody else.

n.c
Q. Anybody else in the courtroom toward the back of the wall there you recognize?

so
A. No.

Q. Okay. And did you have meetings with Mr. Voth and, well, the lady next to him?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Okay. Her name is Donna Herbert. Do you remember that?

A. I remember now.
ae
ich
Q. Okay.

Mr. Voth: Objection to this line of questioning, Your Honor. It exceeds the scope of
Respondent's direct.
mM

Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.


a
Te

Judge Holmes: Bring it around. Bring it around.

Mr. Weitzman:
w.

Q. Where was the first meeting held?


ww
om
A. It was held at the Sheppard Mullin in my attorney's office, Mr. Curry.

n.c
Q. And that was the first meeting, correct?

A. Yes.

so
Q. Who else was there besides Mr. Voth, Ms. Herbert, probably Mr. Curry, and yourself?

ck
A. There was a couple other people, I believe. I don't ... a couple other people, maybe two more
people.

lJa
Q. Do you recall if they were from the Internal Revenue Service or if they were working for one
of the experts for the Internal Revenue Service?
ae
A. I don't know. All I know that I was sitting with people from the IRS.
ich
Q. Okay. And did you have a subsequent meeting with the same people?

A. Yes, we met twice.


mM

Q. And other than those two meetings, in- person meetings, did you meet or talk with anybody
else from the Internal Revenue Service?

A. Never.
a
Te

Q. No phone calls.

A. No phone calls.
w.

Q. And no meetings, to the best of your knowledge, with anybody from Consor. Is that correct?
ww
om
A. Any meeting with who?

n.c
Q. Consor, C-O-N-S-O-R.

so
A. No, I don't know who Consors are.

Q. Okay. And did you ever hear the name Wes Anson?

ck
A. No.

lJa
Q. And did you ever hear the name ... I think it's Jeff Anderson?

A. I don't know.
ae
ich
Q. Ever hear the name ... I don't remember ... David Noble.

A. I don't ring a bell. I don't know. I don't know.


mM

Q. Okay. Got it. So these four people met with you. And can you tell us what they wanted you - -
what they wanted to know about and what they asked you in the first meeting?

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for hearsay, Your Honor.


a
Te

Judge Holmes: Not yet. Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:
w.

Q. What did they want to talk to you about? Do you recall?


ww
om
A. Yeah. The ... I mean, they asked me the same line of question ... when did I start with Michael
Jackson, how I met Michael Jackson. And I can't recall the whole conversation and the content of
it. And they ask me about, you know, the concert and the This Is It. That's what we talked about.

n.c
Q. Did they talk to you about ... let me see if I can move through this faster. Did we ... did they
talk to you about Neverland?

so
A. I think ...

ck
Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for hearsay. It's an out-of-court statement as to what the Respondent
talked to Mr. Tohme about Neverland ...

lJa
Judge Holmes: You were just asking whether he heard it himself. But ...

Mr. Weitzman: Correct.


ae
ich
Judge Holmes: Yeah. That's overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:
mM

Q. Did they talk to you about Neverland, if you recall?

A. I believe maybe they ask me about Neverland and what happened with Neverland.
a

Q. Okay. And did you tell them the story about Mr. Barrack not wanting to be involved originally
Te

and repeat, basically ...

A. I don't ...
w.

Q. ... the story you said here?


ww
om
A. I don't recall.

n.c
Q. Did they talk to you about getting some reward if they won in this case?

A. Sorry. What?

so
Q. Getting some reward if they won in this case?

ck
A. What do you mean?

lJa
Q. Exactly what I said. Did they ...

A. Some reward ... to me you mean?


ae
Q. Yes.
ich

A. No, of course.

Q. Okay. Did you talk to them about the powers of attorney that you had, if you can recall?
mM

A. I don't know if I did or not.

Q. Did they ask you if you had any written agreements with Mr. Jackson?
a
Te

A. I'm sure they did. I don't know. I can't recall. We ... I wasn't taking ... nobody was taking any
notes.
w.

Q. Did they ask you how you felt about John Branca?

A. No. They asked me about John Branca. Yes, they did.


ww
om
Q. Did you tell them that you didn't think John Branca ever met with Michael Jackson?

n.c
A. I think maybe I did say that.

so
Q. Did you tell them that Michael was unwilling to work and, only because of your ability to
push him a bit, he agreed to go back to work and do this tour?

ck
A. Well, Michael knew that he needed to go to do something, to go back to work to, you know ...
to generate a lot of money so he can meet, you know, his demand and his hobby and his, you
know, taste.

lJa
Q. But did you tell people that you met from the IRS that you were responsible for getting him to
go back to work?
ae
A. Maybe I did.
ich

Q. Okay. Well, that ... you believe that to be true, don't you?

A. I'm sorry?
mM

Q. You believe that to be true, don't you?

A. Yeah, it is true.
a
Te

Q. Okay. Did you tell him that John Branca conspired to steal the Beatles catalog?

A. I'm sorry. Say that again.


w.

Q. Did you tell them that John Branca conspired to steal the Beatles catalog?
ww
om
Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for hearsay again, Your Honor. These are out-of-court statements ...

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: It's his statement.

Mr. Voth: ... offered for the matter asserted.

so
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

ck
Mr. Weitzman:

lJa
A. Come again, please.

Q. Did you tell people from the IRS that John Branca conspired to steal the Beatles catalog?
ae
A. I don't ...
ich

Q. Do you recall if you told the IRS lawyers or whoever else was with them that John Branca
conspired to steal the Beatles catalog?
mM

A. I don't remember that I said this in this word. But from what Michael told me, he told me that
John Branca stole 5 percent of his catalog.

Q. Okay.
a

Judge Holmes: That's admitted just for the fact that it was said, not for its truth.
Te

Mr. Weitzman: Correct. Correct.


w.

Judge Holmes: Okay.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: One moment. I'm just going to flip though this, Your Honor.

n.c
Q. Did you personally go to London to help in the resolution of the case with Sheik Abdullah?

A. No, I did not. I went to London, but I went to Bahrain, also.

so
Q. Okay. And the Julian's settlement that you talked about, were ... was Michael a defendant in
that case?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. So did you help resolve the case?

A. Yes, we settled that case out of court.


ae
Q. Okay. Did you ultimately file a lawsuit against the estate?
ich

A. Sorry?
mM

Q. Did you ultimately file a lawsuit against the estate of Michael Jackson?

A. Yes.
a

Q. And that case has been pending and still for quite a while, correct?
Te

A. Still, yeah. I like your company, yes.


w.

Q. A few years ... okay. And by the way ...

Judge Holmes: You're under oath, remember.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman:

n.c
Q. And Audigier, just to get the record straight, was that the Ed Hardy line?

A. Yes, sir.

so
Q. Okay. And you didn't feel that that line was appropriate for Michael, correct?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. And ...

A. Nor do he.
ae
Q. Pardon me?
ich

A. Nor he.

Q. Nor he. Okay. And the Landis litigation, what is it you know about the Landis litigation?
mM

A. Well, the Landis litigation, he filed a lawsuit. And then they tried to subpoena Michael. And
then Michael refused to go. Then Dennis Hawk spoke to, I think, I believe I remember, to the
attorney. And he and Michael told me to go to speak with their attorney. And at that time, he told
me not to tell him anything, not to say anything about anything whatsoever. So that's what I did.
a
Te

Q. Okay. By the way, Andy Heyward, he told you and Michael as well that ... is it correct that he
told you and Michael as well that he did not intend to include any Michael Jackson characters in
his animation ... animated show?
w.

Mr. Voth: Objection. Calls for hearsay, Your Honor. It's an out-of-court statement offered for the
truth of the matter asserted.
ww
om
Judge Holmes: Why do you want that one, Mr. Weitzman?

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: I want to corroborate what Mr. Heyward told us.

so
Judge Holmes: Okay. Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:

ck
A. Can you ask me the question again, please?

lJa
Q. Yes. Do you remember if Andy Heyward told you and Michael that, in the characters he was
creating, he did not want to create or was not going to create a Michael Jackson character?
ae
A. I don't remember.
ich

Q. Okay. He did show you a bunch of the characters that he created, didn't he?

A. I remember. Yes, sir.


mM

Q. And there wasn't a Michael Jackson character ...

A. No, sir.
a
Te

Q. ... in the characters that he showed you, correct?

A. No.
w.

Q. Okay. Now, with respect to the AEG tour, you did deal with Randy Phillips in talking about
the terms and conditions of that agreement, correct?
ww
om
A. Well, the attorney were discussing the terms and the condition of the agreement.

n.c
Q. Okay.

so
Mr. Weitzman: If we're going to take an afternoon break, I'd suggest now because I don't have
that much longer to go ...

ck
Judge Holmes: Okay.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: ... if I can make that suggestion.

RECESS..
ae
Mr. Weitzman:
ich

Q. Mr. Tohme, as part of the AEG tour deal, did you have a producing deal?
mM

A. Did I have what?

Q. Hold on. Let me get that.


a

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, Respondent would like to inquire as to the relevance of some of his
questions. It seems that it's more appropriate for the litigation that's going on between the estate
Te

and Tohme.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Weitzman?


w.

Mr. Weitzman: Well, maybe I could ask the question, and then you could make that objection. I
ww

believe the Court would agree with me. But if not


om
Judge Holmes: Oh, let's see what your question is.

n.c
Mr. Camp: What are we looking for? ................

so
Mr. Weitzman:

Q. Mr. Tohme, after the negotiation for AEG started, did Mr. Hawk speak with Mr. Phillips? Or

ck
did you speak with Mr. Phillips and Mr. Hawk speak with Ms. Jorrie?

lJa
Mr. Voth: Objection. Compound, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Split it up, Mr. Weitzman. ae


Mr. Weitzman: I will, Your Honor.
ich

Mr. Weitzman:

Q. Did you speak primarily with Mr. Phillips?


mM

A. On what?

Q. When the AEG contract was being spoken about.


a
Te

A. Well, we were talking all the time not only about the contract.

Q. Right. So you ...


w.

A. But I mean, we were talking all the time about the tour, but the contract was between the
attorney ... Kathy Jorrie, Dennis Hawk, and Peter and everybody else.
ww
om
Q. Mr. Tohme, isn't it correct that you spoke with Mr. Phillips about what you all ... that is, what
Michael wanted in the agreement? And you and Mr. Phillips discussed some of the things that

n.c
Mr. Jackson wanted like the house and the advance and all of that?

A. Yeah, we discussed that ...

so
Q. Okay.

ck
A. ... the house and the advance.

lJa
Q. And isn't it accurate that you and Mr. Phillips would agree on what the thought should be in
the contract and then the lawyers would document it?
ae
A. No because there was many element that I'm not ... I don't know about. All I talk ... I told
them what Michael want. Michael want the house. Michael want advance money. And Michael
want help at that time to pay the first payment for Sheik Abdullah. And the content of the
ich
contract, it was done between the attorneys.

Q. Okay. So if Mr. Phillips says that he negotiated a contract with you and the lawyers
mM

documented it, would he be wrong?

A. I don't know if we negotiated this. I don't know what is he talking about negotiating. I told
him what Michael want exactly and relay Michael wishes to him, and they agreed to it.
a

Q. Did Mr. Hawk meet with Mr. Phillips, to the best of your knowledge?
Te

A. I'm sure he met with Mr. Phillips. But most of the time, the work was done with Kathy Jorrie
and the other attorney.
w.

Q. Shawn Trell?
ww
om
A. Shawn Trell.

n.c
Q. And the lawyers dealt with the documentation ... isn't it accurate that you and Mr. Phillips
dealt with the wants and needs of AEG and Michael Jackson?

A. I don't understand ...

so
Mr. Voth: Objection, Your Honor, on several grounds. One, it calls for hearsay. Two, it's my

ck
understanding that as part of the dispute between the estate and Tohme is whether Mr. Tohme
procured employment on behalf of an artist without an appropriate ...

lJa
Judge Holmes: Right. We heard ...

Mr. Voth: ... license.


ae
Judge Holmes: ... about that already. It's okay if it's relevant to this case.
ich

Mr. Voth: But I'm trying to understand the relevance.


mM

Mr. Weitzman: First of all, Mr. Phillips has already testified to that. And secondly, I think this
it's important to note what part Mr. Tohme did play. And nobody is debating that part of his role
in managing Michael Jackson was helping to negotiate the AEG tour. And that's the one deal they
had done. And unfortunately, it didn't happen.

Judge Holmes: Well, I mean, wait until relevant ... it becomes relevant to the value of these
a

(inaudible). Okay. That question is allowed. Go ahead and answer it, Mr. Tohme.
Te

Mr. Weitzman:
w.

A. As I said earlier, the issue that I was discussing with the Randy Phillips is the advance, is the
house in London where he's going to live, all the transportation, all the ... what goes on at the
ww
om
concert halls, and the advances, what Michael personally want. But the contract itself was
negotiated between the attorneys.

n.c
Q. I understand. Wasn't part of your responsibility making clear to Randy Phillips on behalf of
Michael Jackson what the financial demands of Michael was, what the ancillary demand such as
the house and expenses and things like that, doctors ... wasn't that part of your responsibility, to

so
make sure AEG included that in the agreement?

Mr. Voth: Objection. Compound, Your Honor. There are, like, three questions there.

ck
Judge Holmes: Overruled. It's clear to me. But overruled. Answer it.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:

Q. Wasn't it ...
ae
ich
A. As I ...

Q. ... part of your responsibility?


mM

A. It was part of my responsibility, as I told you, that ... to tell AEG not only. I told Tim Leiweke,
I told Phil Anschutz that he wants advance money. He wants the house in Las Vegas. He wants to
buy a house in Los Angeles. He needs a huge house with a statue on everything in London. And
we talk about the transportation, about the private plane, et cetera, et cetera.
a

Q. Okay. And did you ... or did you, rather, instruct the lawyers to make sure that those demands
Te

and those needs were included in the agreement?

A. Well, everybody knew about it.


w.

Q. Okay. And for the most part, did the agreement include what you told AEG Michael wanted?
ww
om
A. I think there were ... some of it was in the agreement, the house and this. And then he
demanded a movie at later time.

n.c
Q. Well, did you ... did ... there was a film development deal made for ... I think for $1 million,
right?

so
A. I think so. I can't recall exactly what it was.

ck
Q. But it was a deal to develop films in the future, correct?

A. Right.

lJa
Q. Okay. ae
Mr. Weitzman: And then could we put Exhibit 22-J before the witness, please Okay. Do we
have it? Oh, it's going to go on the screenGoing on the screen, no hard copies anymore. Please,
ich
just the front page, and then I'm going to go on the back page.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Do you recognize this document, Mr. Tohme? I think you told us earlier ...
mM

A. Yes.

Q. ... that this is a document between you and Michael. You told us about this ...
a
Te

A. Right.

Q. ... earlier. And this was a production management agreement for you with Mr. Jackson in
w.

regards to the This Is It tour, correct?

A. Correct.
ww
om
Q. And it provides for you to be paid the $100,000 a month. And I can't remember if there's any
other terms. Did AEG ever pay you any of the money owed under this agreement?

n.c
A. No.

so
Q. Did they ever tell you why?

ck
A. They said they ... to wait until the ... we start the tour.

lJa
Q. And turning to the back page ... it's Page 3 of the document ... is that your signature on the
bottom left?

A. Yes, sir.
ae
Q. And where it says Michael Jackson ...
ich

A. Yes.
mM

Q. ... does that appear to be Mr. Jackson's signature?

A. Yes, sir.
a

Q. And Mr. Phillips' signature, does that appear to be his signature?


Te

A. Yes, sir.
w.

Mr. Weitzman: Could you go to the ...


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: ... Page 28, Lines 1 to 5? Okay. Start at Page 27 and take the lines all the way
up.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: No, there's a question. If you could just go to the question, then we'll take the
time and go through these. Yeah, like, two more questions.

so
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Question, Line 22, Page 26 of the Allgood deposition: "Do you recall who approached who in
connection with this AEG?" That's the question asked you. And the answer reads ...

ck
Mr. Weitzman: If I may, Your Honor.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Mm-hmm.

Mr. Weitzman:
ae
ich
Q. ... "Peter Lopez told me about AEG. And he called Randy Phillips, as I remember, and Randy
was traveling in overseas. And he told me then that Randy ... to wait, not to talk to anybody else
and to wait until Randy returned. "So I waited, and I told Michael. I said I'm not going to ... we
are not going to go with Live Nation because Michael had some demand. He wants to do movies.
mM

He wants some advances. "And then when Randy returned, I think I got a phone call from him.
And he said let's meet, and we met. And we started discussing it, and then I liked what I heard. I
told him what. I think we didn't go that far. "And then he said they'd like to meet with Michael.
So Michael at that time was living in Las Vegas. So I flew to Las Vegas, and I told Michael. "So I
took Michael. We went ... me and him and his son, Blanket, we went to the MGM Hotel with Mr.
Phil Anschutz and Paul Gongaware, Randy Phillips, Tim Leiweke were ... and Tim Leiweke
a

were there and Mr. Anschutz's wife. "So Michael came in. I was there with Michael. We spent,
like, an hour. Then Michael left, and I told him I'll follow him home. "And I stayed, and I spoke
Te

with the people at AEG that were present at the meeting. And we decided to move forward. And I
think his superior gave Randy the green light to continue negotiation with me. "And we started
working on it, and we met. And I told him what I need from them. And we came to an
agreement, and we signed the deal." Do you remember, maybe not from memory, but after
w.

reading this document, do you remember making - - giving that answer to that question?

A. Yes.
ww
om
Q. And that's basically what happened, correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

so
Q. Okay.

Mr. Voth: Your Honor, may I inquire as to what actually took place here, but what the purpose

ck
of this line of questioning? This is completely consistent with what Mr. Tohme testified today. I
fail to realize necessity to read the pages Mr. Weitzman's just read.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: I'll submit it, Your Honor. I think it's perfectly relevant. I mean, if it's more
evidence than the Court needs, the Court will decide whatever weight, if any, it wants to give.
ae
Judge Holmes: It looks like he's arguing the deal was in place at the time of death. We'll see.
ich
Mr. Weitzman: Okay.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


mM

Mr. Weitzman:

Q. By the way, you talked about an Akon song that Michael was upset about that was an
unreleased song. Was that the song Hold My Hand, if you remember, that you're referring to?
a
Te

A. I don't remember the song, the title of the song. But there was ...

Q. But it was some ...


w.

A. ... only one song.


ww
om
Q. It was something that Akon had leaked.

n.c
A. Right.

Q. And Michael was mad about it.

so
A. Right.

ck
Q. And do you know whether or not Hold My Hang, the song that was on the Michael album ...
that is, the album ... the first album of unreleased songs with Akon ... was the same song that was
leaked?

lJa
A. I don't ... I can't remember that. ae
Q. Okay. And I just want to ask you two questions here along the lines that I asked before. Do
you know whether or not your lawyers have filed a request for a reward to be paid by the IRS at
ich
the end of this case?

A. No.
mM

Q. Did you ever file a claim for a reward?

A. No.
a

Q. Okay. So the last question I had for you is ...


Te

Mr. Weitzman: Excuse me, Your Honor. ................


w.

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. So here's the last question I was going to ask you. Why do they call you a doctor?
ww
om
A. Why they call me a doctor?

n.c
Q. Yeah.

A. You have to ask whoever calls me a doctor.

so
Q. Well, is it in the same vein like Dr. J. or doctors .. or Doc Holiday?

ck
A. Well ...

lJa
Judge Holmes: Doc Holiday was a real doctor.

Mr. Weitzman: Oh, he was a dentist. He was a dentist.


ae
Judge Holmes: DDS, yes.
ich

Judge Holmes: I can take judicial notice of that one, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr. Weitzman:
mM

Q. And by the way, you don't have to have an explanation. I'm curious. That's why I asked the
question.
a

A. Well, I'll answer it in different time for you.


Te

Q. Okay. Fair enough.


w.

Mr. Weitzman: I don't have further questions. Thank you.

Judge Holmes: Redirect?


ww
om
Mr. Voth: Briefly, Your Honor.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman: Am I clearing out, Mr. Voth? Or are you staying there?

so
Mr. Voth: You're going over there.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

ck
Mr. Voth:

lJa
Q. All right. So Mr. Weitzman brought up the few meetings we ... you had with the IRS. And so
I'd like to just briefly talk to you about those. So the ... you said these meetings took place at
Sheppard Mullin?
ae
A. Yes.
ich

Q. At a conference room there?


mM

A. Yes.

Q. Is there a speaker system built into the conference room table there?
a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. So when you met with the attorneys with the IRS, was it possible that other individuals
participated in the meetings on the phone?
w.

A. Yes.
ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: Objection. Calls for speculation.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman: It's also leading. But I'm not ... can I just say this? He testified they had a
meeting the 14th, so now we're down to possibilities.

so
Judge Holmes: There may have been people listening in from somewhere else, I guess. Go

ck
ahead, Mr. Voth. Could other people have been listening in, Mr. Tohme?

A. Yes.

lJa
Mr. Voth: ae
Q. Is it fair to say that you and the estate have a very contentious relationship?
ich
A. Yes.

Q. With the ongoing litigation?


mM

A. Yes, been for seven years.

Q. Now, did you have a personal relationship with Michael Jackson?


a

A. What do you mean by personal? I loved the guy. Of course.


Te

Q. Other than your business representation of Michael ...


w.

A. Yeah, we became very close together.


ww
om
Q. Can you describe the personal relationship you had with Michael Jackson?

n.c
A. I mean, I ... you know, I became, you know, like his confidante. I became ... I mean, I was ...
he was like a brother to me.

Q. Why do you say that?

so
A. Because we became very close. And I was involved with his mother, with his children, with

ck
his ... you know, I mean, he was consulting me on a daily basis on everything that goes in his
life. He was ... you know, he confined (sic) in me.

lJa
Mr. Voth: No further questions, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Are we done with Mr. Tohme?


ae
Mr. Weitzman: Yes.
ich

Judge Holmes: Thank you very much, Mr. Tohme.


mM

A. Thank you, sir.

Judge Holmes: You're free to go. Mr. Toscher, for tomorrow, are we still on board with ... oh, I
guess ... I'm sorry. I'm looking at the wrong side. Ms. Herbert, are we still on for ... I'm a creature
of habit ... with Mr. Branca followed by Mr. Anson talking about MIJAC tomorrow?
a
Te

Ms Herbert: I believe that we're going to start with Mr. ...

Mr. Weitzman: Your Honor, by the way, something just occurred to me. I'm done with Mr.
w.

Tohme, but I don't think he should be excused ...

Judge Holmes: Why?


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: ... just because I may need him for rebuttal. He lives .. in the city, and I wouldn't
call him ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: Okay.

so
Mr. Weitzman: ... unless I needed him.

ck
Judge Holmes: All right. I didn't hear any of that ...

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: I was asking that he not be excused unless he got a call ... has to be recalled for
rebuttal. I'm not ... I can't make that decision now. But if he's going to leave the city, we'll let him
know. He does take ... his work ...

Mr. Weitzman: I know that. Okay.


ae
ich
Mr. Weitzman: I know that.

Ms Herbert: I would just ask whether Mr. Tohme has been subpoenaed by Petitioner.
mM

Judge Holmes: Has Mr. Tohme been subpoenaed by Petitioner?

Mr. Toscher: No, no. But we could give him one now if he's going to require one.
a

Mr. Curry: Your Honor ...


Te

Mr. Toscher: Are you going to require a subpoena?


w.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Curry, I take it you're his lawyer?


ww
om
Mr. Curry: I offered both sides that we would show up voluntarily, Your Honor ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: That works for me.

Mr. Curry: ... and meet with each side, for that matter.

so
Judge Holmes: And Mr. Curry is identified as Mr. Tohme's lawyer for the record. That's fine.
Thank you very much, Mr. Curry. I'll take you at your word. Back to you, Ms. Herbert. Branca

ck
and then Anson?

Ms Herbert: Yes, I believe we're calling Mr. Anson first.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Oh, Anson first? ae
Ms Herbert: Yes.
ich
Judge Holmes: Fine. And then we'll get to Mr. Branca after ...

Mr. Toscher: It's regarding?


mM

Judge Holmes: MIJAC.

Mr. Toscher: MIJAC.


a

Ms Herbert: Regarding MIJAC.


Te

Judge Holmes: Right. So we're on board for that?


w.

Mr. Weitzman: And do we have a time estimate?


ww
om
Judge Holmes: Twenty minutes on direct, then Mr. ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: Then it's turned over to you guys.

Mr. Weitzman: I got that.

so
Mr. Toscher: Yeah, let's talk to Mr. Salkin.

ck
Mr. Weitzman: Well, also, I wonder if there's a time estimate for Mr. Branca.

lJa
Mr. Voth: Similar to the ... approximate for Respondent ... well, it depends. I mean ...

Judge Holmes: Yes, of course.


ae
Mr. Voth: ... approximately two hours for Respondent's direct.
ich

Judge Holmes: Your direct, yeah.

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you.


mM

Judge Holmes: You look on board with everything. Very good. With that, we are adjourned until
tomorrow.
a
Te
w.
ww