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H3G5lobH
4 v. 15 CR 0174 (LGS)
6 Defendant.
7 ------------------------------x
10
Before:
11
HON. LORNA G. SCHOFIELD
12
District Judge
13
14 APPEARANCES
15 PREET BHARARA
United States Attorney for the
16 Southern District of New York
EMIL J. BOVE III
17 Assistant United States Attorney
20 ALSO PRESENT:
ELIZABETH CARUSO
21 ANNA MARIA RISO
HUMBERTO GARCIA
22 ISOLINA BERNHARDT
Spanish Interpreters
23
24
25
24 CROSS EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. RETURETA:
2 A. Yes.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, today is March the 16th. Between March the 6th and
10 A. No, sir.
12 without telling me anything that was said, but have you had the
14 A. Yes, sir.
16 A. Okay.
18 correct?
19 A. Yes, sir.
21 correct?
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Now, when Mr. Bove was asking you a question, this document
3 was shortened and only showed the bottom portion; do you recall
4 that?
5 A. Yes, sir.
10 A. Yes, sir.
16 BY MR. RETURETA:
19 A. Yes, sir.
21 A. Yes, sir.
24 photos from left to right and ask you who those individuals
25 are.
6 that woman?
10 great.
17 A. He is my brother, sir.
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. No. 4. Sorry.
4 A. No, sir.
6 A. Yes, sir.
8 A. No, sir.
25 BY MR. RETURETA:
3 A. Yes, sir.
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
8 A. No, sir.
15 trouble?
17 OFAC.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. When?
21 A. 2013.
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Once the OFAC came out, did you begin to take steps to try
7 BY MR. RETURETA:
8 Q. Once that OFAC came out you knew you had troubles, right?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And you testified, when asked by Mr. Bove, that you had
12 that time because you wanted to make sure that nobody said
16 call because you wanted to make sure that the person wouldn't
18 A. No, sir. I wasn't the kind of person who made phone calls.
19 Q. So, are you saying today that you did not tape any phone
20 calls?
22 the testimony.
24 Q. So, you are saying you did not record a phone call during
1 A. No, sir.
4 don't know whether the answer is yes or no, so if you can clean
5 that up?
7 Q. Did you record any phone calls during that 2013 time
8 period?
10 Q. Sir, once the OFAC came out you began to look for ways
11 to -- well, once the OFAC came out, did you contact the United
12 States government?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Did there come a time when you met with agents of the
17 Q. And when you met with agents of the DEA in December 2013,
22 Q. Was that first, that meeting with the DEA, was that the
23 first of many meetings that you had with agents of the DEA and,
25 A. In 2013, sir.
4 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. No, sir.
9 A. Yes, sir.
15 A. Yes, sir.
19 at the beginning of each meeting that you had so that you could
20 sign off and everyone in the room that was with you could also
21 sign off?
24 Q. Well, sir, if I could have you look at the very next page?
2 A. Yes, sir.
4 A. Yes, I can see my initials there but there are some I don't
5 recognize.
12 BY MR. RETURETA:
15 March of 2014.
17 A. Yes, sir.
19 August of 2015.
21 A. Yes.
5 BY MR. RETURETA:
10 meetings?
13 Q. And the other meetings may not have been noted on this
15 enforcement, correct?
17 form.
22 Where?
25 December 5, 2013 on --
1 THE COURT: Can you speak more loudly and into the
11 You were asked whether your lawyer was present for the
24 weren't present.
4 BY MR. RETURETA:
8 A. Yes, sir.
12 A. No, sir.
15 correct?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And as part of that deal it was not only you but it was
6 discuss my family.
7 BY MR. RETURETA:
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And not only did you come to an agreement but your brother
20 correct?
23 advice, going back and forth with your brother during this
24 time?
1 together.
2 Q. And when you say "the meetings," you are describing the
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. So, much like that gentleman on the far side of the room is
10 activity, correct?
13 authorities, correct?
14 A. No, sir.
16 correct?
20 followed.
22 stopped, so.
23 BY MR. RETURETA:
24 Q. Taking you to December 2013 and the first half of 2014, you
2 Q. In other words, when you would sit down with Agent Gonzalez
3 and conclude your meeting, you and your brother would leave
4 together, correct?
8 BY MR. RETURETA:
11 correct?
12 A. Not just with the agents, sir. There were several people
13 there.
15 meeting finished?
16 A. Yes, sir.
18 A. Yes, sir.
22 we would go separately.
23 Q. Did there come a point at any time in that time period that
24 we are discussing that you and your brother talked about what
9 THE COURT: 3.
11 BY MR. RETURETA:
13 A. No, sir.
16 A. Yes, sir.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who is that?
23 understand it.
25 A. Yes, sir.
2 A. Mine.
4 document?
5 A. Yes, sir.
9 A. Yes, sir.
11 A. It says 4/14/2016.
13 A. In 2016, sir.
15 judicial notice that the plea agreement that was entered into
19 objection.
20 Any objection?
24 BY MR. RETURETA:
8 don't speak English. I don't know what the document says, sir.
9 BY MR. RETURETA:
11 that document.
15 BY MR. RETURETA:
17 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Well, when Mr. Bove was asking you questions you had said
9 A. Sir, what I did was confess all the crimes that I have
13 A. Yes, sir.
15 lists 78 individuals that were killed and that you admitted as,
17 A. Yes, sir.
19 highlighted here, homicides no. 75, 76, 77 and 78. Do you see
21 A. Yes, sir.
1 A. Yes, sir.
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, are you now familiar with this list that you are
5 looking at?
7 that I caused.
15 Q. Looking at the very first page you will see a section there
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And Mr. Bove asked you and you responded that's the drug
23 A. He investigated.
24 Q. What?
2 indicated that you got together with other drug traffickers and
4 A. Yes, sir.
6 information about these murders that you are now accepting that
7 you caused?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. No, because your only focus right now is the United States
12 about, sir.
16 asks me to, I not commit any more crimes, they will write that
22 Q. And did you work with prosecutors and agents to make sure
24 A. Sir, the work I have done with them has been to give them
4 States, correct?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Sir, when you were listed on the OFAC there were various
9 other individuals from your family that were also listed on the
10 OFAC, correct?
11 A. My companies, yes.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Your sister?
15 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. Yes, sir.
19 A. Yes, sir.
21 A. Yes, sir.
23 OFAC, correct?
25 Q. And when you talk about companies, the company was INRIMAR,
1 I-N-R-I-M-A-R, correct?
10 question?
11 BY MR. RETURETA:
16 A. In 2009.
17 Q. When in 2009?
24 help your drug trafficking and the acronym is your family name:
2 interpreters --
5 BY MR. RETURETA:
6 Q. So, the company that you created was a company with your
7 name, correct?
8 A. Yes, sir.
11 period.
12 A. No, sir.
15 had?
17 politicians.
22 Q. The time that you have told me that you were focused on
6 2013?
11 BY MR. RETURETA:
13 testafero or a straw man or people? Did you have any straw men
17 A. Yes, sir.
3 companies?
6 Honduran government.
17 BY MR. RETURETA:
20 of these companies?
1 Q. Sir, I'm going to give you a name and ask you to identify
4 Sierra Caraballo?
7 Q. Ninrod. N-I-N-R-O-D.
8 A. Yes, sir.
10 A. A drug trafficker.
12 A. At times.
17 shipments.
20 loads in partnership.
23 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Did you talk to them about any other companies that you had
4 an interest in?
11 doesn't remember.
14 ask for any assistance from the United States regarding these
15 companies?
18 the United States, did you ask for any assistance from the
20 listed on that document? Did you ask for help regarding any
21 other companies?
1 BY MR. RETURETA:
2 Q. Did you ask for any assistance with the companies listed on
4 A. No, sir.
6 hold property, funds of anything that you may have that they
10 A. No, sir.
17 Q. I'm not sure how this would translate but do you recall, as
20 Q. And, do you have any knowledge that you will be paying the
22 drug trafficking?
25 money?
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Have you paid the DEA or the prosecutor's office any money?
3 A. No, sir.
6 not asking if you have give them money, hand off; I am asking
12 conduct?
14 Judge decides.
19 Q. And, sir, your best estimate, what are the proceeds that
21 narco-trafficking?
2 Q. Well, sir, when Mr. Bove asked you a question about the
8 A. No, sir.
13 transport, sir.
16 Q. How much?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Do you have any idea how many kilos you, your brother, your
25 Q. So, the best number that you can give us is 20,000 tons?
4 BY MR. RETURETA:
8 entire existence?
9 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Let me ask you about the 400 kilos that you described
13 Mr. Lobo participating in. Sir, for those 400 kilos, did
15 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. Pama.
20 sir.
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Did he know exactly where that -- where those 400 kilos was
2 him.
7 and then from there, to Corts, and that's where we met with
8 the defendant.
9 Q. And did you inform the defendant the route that that plane
10 took?
12 Q. Sir, did you inform the defendant exactly where the drugs
13 came from?
15 Q. And, did you inform the defendant where those drugs were
17 to be sold to.
18 A. No, sir.
21 A. No, sir.
25 A. Sir, the person who was giving information, that that plane
7 Q. And I am asking you about before you called him, he did not
15 drug shipment.
18 Sula, and once he was in San Pedro Sula to let me know so that
25 his answer.
4 because if the plane that was coming from Venezuela loaded with
9 waiting for the plane to land on the air strip, sir, because he
13 Q. Sir, this is what you told Mr. Bove when he asked you that
15 A. Yes, sir. I told him what had happened with the plane.
17 you, right?
20 A. That's what happened on that day, the day of the event when
3 interrupt for a second. Do you have any idea about how long
11 BY MR. RETURETA:
12 Q. When you called Mr. Lobo was it for Mr. Lobo to provide
17 testified that you have when responding to Mr. Bove, did you
24 the reason you called him because you needed specific drug
25 route information?
7 right there.
11 BY MR. RETURETA:
12 Q. And what you were doing was what you have testified is you
13 had done previously which is you wanted Lobo and the people
16 question.
18 Q. You testified you told us that called Mr. Lobo for security
19 reasons, right?
21 Q. And when you say the security of loads, you mean you wanted
25 what you mean is that you wanted a load to make its way from
1 point A to point B?
2 A. The defendant's job, sir, for the load, was to, from the
4 highway.
8 Pan-American Highway.
13 the president.
16 president.
20 Q. You testified that you had given the president some money,
21 correct?
22 A. Yes, sir.
25 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Now, after you walk away from this series of meetings that
9 right?
13 Q. When in 2009?
15 Q. What month?
19 meeting.
24 A. No, sir.
9 testify whenever they ask me to, and not commit any more
10 crimes.
11 Q. Sir, once you reached that agreement that you have told us
15 talking about.
18 BY MR. RETURETA:
22 A. No, sir.
12 deal that he alleges took place and the results of that deal.
16 BY MR. RETURETA:
19 Q. Were you concerned about this deal when you learned that
24 little confused.
7 BY MR. RETURETA:
8 Q. Sir, given this deal that you are telling us took place
9 between you and the president, were you concerned when other
24 able to protect us, help us, the Cachiros, which was my brother
25 and me.
1 Q. Were you aware that over 100 air strips were destroyed in
3 A. I didn't know that, and actually the thing with the air
11 Q. But he didn't --
13 answer.
3 questions.
7 involvement.
11 component, I guess.
14 deadline.
16 time.
18 BY MR. RETURETA:
21 correct?
24 didn't you?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. You know that the other drug trafficking family, the Vayas
8 correct?
9 A. Yes, sir.
19 A. On one occasion we met with the defendant when she was with
1 Q. Since the moment that you began cooperating with the United
3 today, have you used her in any fashion to assist you, your
5 A. No, sir.
12 A. Yes, sir.
14 correct?
16 Gonzalez.
17 Q. And everything you were doing at that the point in time was
19 A. No, sir.
21 A. They met because of a drug load that was coming by sea from
24 Pacheco, sir.
25 Q. Sir, you and Agent Gonzalez conferred and talked about how
4 to provide security for the drug load that was coming from
6 lord.
10 A. Agent Gonzalez was the one who was guiding, he was helping
11 me with this drug load that was coming by sea from Venezuela,
12 sir.
14 that -- well, did you know that a meeting took place in June of
15 2014?
21 Pacheco.
24 correct?
1 Q. You had been planning for weeks if not months to try and
3 A. The idea was for the meeting so that when the Mexican came
8 meeting that you and the DEA tried to plan an execute. I'm not
14 BY MR. RETURETA:
16 2014, right?
21 Q. And you were part of planning that meeting along with DEA
22 agents, right?
24 that was going to come, not just for the time of the load.
25 Q. And the plan was to try and ensnare General Pacheco in this
1 operation, right?
3 sir.
6 A. The person who wanted it was the son -- was the defendant
8 body shop.
9 Q. And, as far as you know, was Agent Gonzalez and the DEA
14 sir.
18 coming.
24 this meeting.
14 own.
16 knowledge?
18 was here when they played it. He is the only witness we have
21 not at the meeting you can ask him in someone reported to him
23 BY MR. RETURETA:
2 meeting?
4 Q. And, did Mr. Lobo tell you that once they got into General
13 Any redirect?
19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. BOVE:
24 A. Yes, sir.
2 A. Yes, sir.
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Why?
6 A. For fear. Just like Mr. Juan Gomez had been killed, I was
10 Q. And you were also asked some questions today about whether
14 A. Yes, sir.
16 A. Yes, sir.
18 now?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Which official?
23 of Honduras?
24 A. Yes, sir.
3 hope soon.
6 BY MR. BOVE:
7 Q. During the course of your cooperation with the DEA, did you
9 A. Yes, sir.
11 meeting?
15 INRIMAR.
18 A. Yes, sir.
22 pay INRIMAR.
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. What?
1 A. Bribes.
4 Q. Did you turn it over to the DEA after you recorded it?
5 A. Yes, sir.
18 questioning.
1 bit.
2 BY MR. BOVE:
6 father.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And Mr. Retureta asked you today about your first meeting
11 A. Yes, sir.
13 a second meeting?
14 A. Yes, sir.
17 A. Yes, sir.
20 cross-examination?
22 Q. Who is he?
24 Q. Why did he say that, following the second meeting, that you
4 Q. Between 2009 and up past the time you cooperated, did the
14 conclusions of law.
21 submission?
9 something separate if you don't want to, but you may, and if
16 scheduled for two weeks; could be the last week of May, first
20 THE COURT: Yes. And why don't we stick with the 8th
21 and 10th for the submissions, and I will ask for the
5 Judge.
8 order. Okay?
22 admitted.
25 protective order.
3 o0o
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1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
6 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS
8 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
10 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11
11 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19
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