Interviews \ Joe Lewis

DW Forum - Is there a particular person whose insight and understanding of combat you
admire more than others? If so, I hope you'll take the time to give an example.

Joe Lewis - I do not admire any one person. I see myself in many other fighters and trainers.
I like the explosiveness of Jack Dempsey, (25 first-round knockouts--a record today). The
elusiveness of Ali and the power of Joe Louis and Marciano. Few guys can knock you out
with just one punch in the very last round like those two.Eddie Futch had a brilliant trainer's
mind, and others like Ray Robinson could put it all together, speed, power, timing, brains,
stamina, longevity, adaptability, etc. Even I had it all once but in my heart, I never cared
about who was king of the hill.

DW Forum - Could you answer me on one simple question concerning JKD? What exactly
was Bruce teaching? I mean did he have specific way of treining his students or maybe he
just said "well, we're gonna learn this from wing chun, that from boxing and those kicks from
taekwondo"?Were there any specifics only for jeet kune do?So, have you sparred with Bruce
Lee (because I've heard many versions of your fighting-relation ship with him).

Joe Lewis - Bruce and I would only do drills related to combat. We did not give them names,
such as Wing Chun etc. If it worked we used it and I have always trained that way. I do not
care about names or styles, that is all garbage---and I mean garbage. Either your kick or
choke worked or it didn't: the style did not carry any super magic or extra powers.

DW Forum - I read a story about Bruce going over to your house and not being impressed
with the size of your heavy bag and called it a girls bag, and I think he asked Herb Jackson
was it, to make him a man sized man. It weighed 700lbs and if I remember the story correctly
you along with Bob Wall set it up for him and then hid in a bush. Bruce kicked it and landed
in a heap. I hope I've got this all right or else I'll look like a bit of a dip Anyway can you
remember this day and what did you think when he kicked the bag and landed on the floor.
Did he ever move the big bag at all, what was his sidekick power like on the bag?

Joe Lewis - I do not remember much about that 700 pound bag. It sounds like one of those
old rumors. Bruce had a good fast side kick but if you watch some of those old atapes, you
can tell he always lunged from too great a distance. This makes the bag move but throws your
timing way off. You need to be close to the tirget when you fire so your reaction time and
your response time are quick, not just one. Timeing speed is both.You should never work
with a bag weighing more than l00 pounds, and I mean never. If anyone tells you different,
they do not know what they are talking about. Bannana bags are different for the low cut
kicks.

DW Forum - Lately I've heard things like "Bruce Lee could hit seven times in a second"...I
personally believe it is crap. I mean how could anybody test speed of punches without todays
fast-cameras and all that stuff?I'm told my wing chun instructor punches seven hits on a
second (in the air of course).Have you heard of it? I guess it's a proof of a quickness....maybe
Bruce talked about it?

Joe Lewis - Please, drop all the stuff you've heard. Martial arts is full of nonsense. Only
believe what you have seen or can prove. Show me more than three real punches in a second
and I will kiss your butt. ON film, Ali's jab took 7 frames to complete, and Sugar Ray's took 9
frames. A second of film takes 24 frames. Simple math guys. Three real punches per second
and that is it. Less talk and more proof. Let's get in the ring and show off some of these
secrets. They pay millions of dollars. That beats eating rice all your life and teaching martial
arts forever anytime?

DW Forum - Can you tell a bit us of your training days with Bruce Lee & Bob Wall? How
many training sessions in total did you have with Bruce & over that period of time? What is
your opinion of Bruce as a fighter? Would he have been able to go 10 or 12 rounds with
someone such as yourself or Chuck Norris? It is rumoured that Bruce Lee & Chuck Norris
had a sparing session in that Chuck Norris was left red-faced. I assume this to mean he lost
and was embarassed. Do you know ot have you anything about this ? Is there any truth in it.
Can you tell us about the incident where Bruce kept teasing you about kicking a girl sized
bag (Becuase you kept busting 100lb bags with your kicks). And you guys (Bob wall etc)
made him a man sized bag (300lb). Did you ever meet or have a chance to talk to Jim Kelly ?

Joe Lewis - I learn fast. I made black belt in one year in Okinawa in three different styles. I
am a fast learning. I can get all your stuff in a matter of weeks, and I mean anybody who can
fight. I worked with Bruce less than two years before we grew apart. We used to work
together for 6 to 8 hours at a time. I would be at his house at one in the afternoon, and not
leave until maybe ten that night. Is that one lesson? Bruce was not a fighter. He was an actor
and a teacher. He was a great teacher.

DW Forum - There is a fellow from India who always calls Bruce Lee `Master Lee',and
capitalizes any words referring to `Him'.He has also put some rather unflattering remarks on
his Indian fan club website about you by taking quotes of yours out of context and saying that
you are essential insulting `Master Lee'. Can you tell us how Bruce Lee would respond and
treat somebody who would call him `Master Lee' outside a formal class setting?Did you or
Chuck or Mike Stone ever have to call him sifu or such?Or did Lee tell you to call him by his
name?

Joe Lewis - Bruce Lee always called me "Joe," and I always called him, "Bruce." Bruce told
me he was not a master but rather a student master. He called himself this because he felt he
was always still learning. He joked about some who called him "sifu." As far as what some of
these uninformed people from foreign websites say about me or Bruce, I wish they would
exercise better judgment. You never talk about a person unless you have interviewed him,
worked with him, or observed him training. Most people who talk about Bruce and myself
have never met either of us, interviewed either of us, or witnessed us training together. My
only advice to the uneducated writers, who saturate the JKD world, bring us a little honor to
your efforts, and in the future, as professional writers practice, do your homework first.
Lastly, proper ethics teaches you not to attack somebody and then invite them to come onto a
website to defend themselves. In response to attacks against me not being spiritual: The
spiritual aspects of combat never made sense to the rational thinker. However, I studied
objectivism and J. Krisnamurti before I ever met Bruce. He encouraged me to integrate these
ideologies into my training. Before Krisnamurti died, I attended one of his lectures in Ojai,
California. After his talk, he usually accepted visitors in the privacy of his company. I gave
his staff a poster and pictures of Bruce Lee to present on Bruce's behalf. I told them that
Krisnamurti was one of Bruce's idols. To me, this was an act of profound spiritualism. No
other martial artist had done this for Bruce.

DW Forum - Are you still in contact with Chuck Norris and Mike Stone?

Joe Lewis - I recently did one of Chuck Norris' last shows on "Walker Texas Ranger." Chuck
is in good shape but focuses his life on acting. Mike Stone lives in the Phillipines. So far as
training goes, I have stayed in shape and remain on the cutting edge of the best knowledge
available to top fighters.

DW Forum - What was/ is the greatest impact that Bruce had on you personally , whether it
be from a physical , or spiritual sense? Also, what are your thoughts on the fact that he's still
being talked about after all these decades?

Joe Lewis - I had studied the philosophies of objectivism and J. Krisnamurti before I met
Bruce. His ideas complemented and encouraged a similar ideology. He inspired me to
embrace this way of thinking and integrated into my physical training. I admired his abstract
thinking. These are people who think in principal. We were both artists in the sense of being
able to draw and sketch. Although he was Chinese, I saw myself in him.

DW Forum - You have said on numerous occassions that Bruce was not a fighter, but at the
same time you say that Bruce was the first Ph.D in martial arts fighting? And you have also
written about how when you first met Bruce you were really prejudice in those days,
especially of little guys as fighters, what changed your mind? You also write that in those
days you didn't care much for talkers, you say, "don't tell me how to fight if you never
fought", you go on to say "I was a doer in those days, and I didn't care much for talkers. In
other words, don't tell me how great you are, how great your style is, or weather your stuff
works or not. Let's simply get in the ring and I'll find out within a matter of seconds". What
was it that changed your mind and become one of Bruce's students? Why were your classes
private, and were Chuck Norris, or Mike Stone taught privatly also?

Joe Lewis - Bruce told me he did not care about competing. He had no interest in it, and he
said he felt there was nothing to gain by him doing so. Little guys, in my opinion, have
always been the best trainers. This is because tactically very early in their careers they figure
out how to conquer larger opponents. Mike Stone, who I respect, convinced me to study with
Bruce. Martial arts does not have a long history as does boxing. Bruce Lee was a wealth of
knowledge. No one knew what he had. Bruce Lee was proud to be the instructor of three
world champions, Norris, Stone, and myself. With private lessons, he could customize each
lesson to fit and compliment the attributes of the individual. I teach this way also.

DW Forum - How do you end a fight with multiple opponents in a very quick and efficient
way?? (4 or 5 Opponents). And Who is your hero? or a role model?

Joe Lewis - Against multiple opponents, you only fight one at a time. You respond to the
closest first and maneuver so that the opponent you are working against is always between
you and the next nearest attacker. I have no martial arts heroes. I'm attracted to scientists in
the intellectual arena. Abstract thinkers, not physical types, have always appealed to me most.
Bruce Lee was an abstract thinker. That's why I liked him, not because of his techniques.

DW Forum - Have you ever considered putting out a Bio of you life during your tournament
days. A book about your start in the martial arts right up to when you became World Kick
Boxing champion. I for one like these sort of books and think it would make a good book.
Are you still involved in anyway with the UFC, I remember a couple of years ago, maybe it
was longer, you interviewed fighters after their matches; what is your opinion of these
tournaments today? Do you think that they will ever get the same respect, or media coverage
that Boxing does?

Joe Lewis - Some day a good writer would do my life story. Presently, we have a screen play
ready entitled, "The One To Beat." I did commentary on the IFC events. They cancel out so
much that it's difficult working it into my schedule. I do not like tournaments; they are boring
and it's fake fighting. In the 20s, 30s, and 40s, baseball and boxing were America's two major
sports. It will take years for the mixed martial arts to ever catch up.

DW Forum - How come it took so long to come out with a book about your relationship with
Bruce Lee?

Joe Lewis - Over the years, there have been many statements that others have made about
what Bruce Lee or I said. I come from a long chain of world-class fighters, and we pay little
attention to those who do the talking and only give credit to those who do their talking in the
ring. I wanted this book to set the record straight about my true relationship and training with
Bruce Lee. The reviews and feedback I have begun to receive from many of the early readers
of the book have been 100% favorable. Most have said it was extremely interesting and long
overdue. Most of the material in the book has never been disclosed. It is a major first in the
history of martial arts. Ten different writers who knew Bruce Lee, including three of the top
karate fighters of all time: Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, and myself, have put our true
statements in print for the first time.

DW Forum - Have you read Davis Millers Book 'The Tao of Bruce Lee' and what did you
think of it?

Joe Lewis - Davis Millers book really upset Bruce Lees family, and I understand why. He
made many statements which I found extremely offensive and untrue. Several times he
attributed comments to me that I never said. Example: He stated that I made a comment that
Jeet Kune Do practitioners were more like Geek Kune Do. I have never used the word
geek in my life. It is not a word in my vocabulary.

DW Forum - In Davis Miller's 'The Tao of Bruce Lee' he recounts a story that you told him
about how one time Bruce set you up in front of some of his students Davis writes, "We're
training and a couple of his student's are standing around. He says, 'Joe, fire that forehand
strike you're working on.' I fired it; he slipped it, and he said, 'Come on Joe, do it again.' I did.
And he says, 'just once more, Joe.' The third time I fired the punch, he slipped it and came
back with that triple punch you see at the beginning of ENTER THE DRAGON. He goes ba-
ba-bam, fires the three shots, hits me square between the eyes. He suckered me. And it took
him three tries to pull it off. Next thing I hear, his students are running around saying Bruce
kicked my ass, completely showed me up." Can you tell us which students were present and
did Bruce ever apologize?

Joe Lewis - The two students that I had met on this occasion behind Bruces house were
Peter Chin and Ted Wong. The year was 1968. It was not a workout session or a private
lesson. Bruce was pretty much just goofing off. He had Ted and myself execute a couple of
drills, which he had staged. We were wearing boxing headgear and Kendo gloves. One of us
would fire a forward hand strike, and the other would attempt to slip it or deflect it. Bruce
asked me to fire the punch at him. My punch was very quick, and it took him a couple of
attempts before he could time his counter. On the third attempt, he brushed the punch aside
and did a three-punch counter, which is what we saw in the movie, Enter the Dragon. We
were not sparring as I have never sparred with Bruce nor have I seen him spar. I dont think
any apology from Bruce was warranted. I didnt see it as a big deal and I still dont. He was
just doing a little timing thing. If Bruces students were running around saying Bruce kicked
my butt, of course, it is not true and I could care less why they would make this up. This is
another reason I wanted to set the record straight with this book.

DW Forum - What were your exhibition bouts like against Leon Spinks and Bill "Superfoot"
Wallace? Are many of your fights on film or will there be in the future? I think I heard
somewhere that Bruce had film of you competing, if so, do you know where that film is?

Joe Lewis - My exhibition bout with Leon Spinks was a fiasco. His manager asked me not to
throw any leg kicks, and while we were in the dressing room before the bout, they
approached me asked me to take a dive and pretend Leon Spinks knocked me out. That just
showed me again how crooked boxing is. Of course, I said, no. Then just before the bell,
Leons manager walked over to me and asked me not to throw any head kicks, and I said,
Why dont you just put handcuffs on me and let him beat the hell out of me? Against
Superfoot, the Nevada Athletic Commissioner told me two different times before I got in
the ring that if I started hitting hard he would personally step in the ring and stop the bout.
Against someone who is fast as Bill Wallace, how do you hold back your power while at the
same time being able to match his speed? It is impossible. Again, I felt handcuffed.
Exhibition or demonstration bouts are a farce. Its too easy for someone to set you up. Ive
seen it happen many times.

DW Forum - Can you tell the forum what exactly happened the time you demonstrated
Martial Arts on Muhammad Ali?

Joe Lewis - Muhammad Ali was getting ready to fight the wrestler, Inoki, from Japan. He
was at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles doing a press conference in the boxing ring. I
simply asked him what he would do if a wrestler did a fake punch at his head and shot for his
leg to take him to the ground. He told me to step in the ring and demonstrate. The press
pushed me between the ropes, and I found myself face to face with Ali. We were both in
street clothes, and he had his hands up shuffling side to side using lateral footwork
movements against me. I did a shoulder fake, which he reacted to, and shot for his leg. The
instance I hooked his leg, I froze. I was too embarrassed to dump him on his butt. He bent
forward and wrapped his arms around my waist, and I heard everybody in the place laugh. I
picked him up, did a firemans carry takedown, dumping him on his back, and pinned him on
the mat. Everybody grabbed me and pulled me off quickly. I jumped up, telling everybody we
were just playing. Ali stood up next to me and put his arm around my shoulder. At the time, I
was only about 180 pounds because I was pursuing acting not fighting, and my weight was
really down. Alis first comment to me was, You lifted weights when you were younger,
didnt you? Im sure he could tell I was extremely strong and hard as a brick. Then we did
the same movement again, and I pinned him again a second time in a row. Thats when he
showed me how he was going to fight Inoki with his back constantly against the ropes.

DW Forum - In your brief film career, what movie are you most proud of and if you had
total control over a project to star in, who would you cast and why?

Joe Lewis - I am not really proud of any of my films. I never had a script or a director I could
work with. They were all action directors and knew nothing about working with actors. I
would like to work in a project with someone like Robert De Niro or Jack Nicholson where I
would play someone close to him, such as a brother. I would prefer never to do martial art
movies. In the beginning, my acting coaches told me to never do martial art movies. That was
one of the reasons I turned Bruce Lee down.

DW Forum - You worked on 'The Silent Flute' or 'Circle of Iron' with David Carradine; had
Bruce lived would you have worked with him on 'The Silent Flute' movie, or let's say 'Game
of Death' if he asked you again?

Joe Lewis - I am not sure what part I would have played in either of these movies had Bruce
Lee asked me to work with him. In retrospect, I would be a fool not to.

DW Forum - The first time you met Bruce in late 1966 in a parking lot outside of Black Belt
magazine, Bruce spent about 30-minutes showing you a number of weaknesses in the
traditional karate styles and why his system was superior. What exactly did Bruce say and
why didn't that convince you to start working with him. Why did you consider only after
talking to Mike Stone in 1967 to contact Lee, what did Mike Stone say that Bruce didn't to
convince you?

Joe Lewis - This is actually a good story. Both Mike Stone and I talk about this in the book.
Mikes chapter is a real eye opener. Mike was a fighter and I respected his opinion.

DW Forum - There is new film all the time popping up for sale of Bruce Lee's backyard
workouts. Did Bruce ever film any of your lessons with him? Do you have any photos of
Bruce and yourself, or film of Bruce that have been stored away and never been released?

Joe Lewis - No one ever filmed Bruce Lee and I training together. The photo editor of Black
Belt magazine, Oliver Pang, shot a number of rolls of film with me, Bruce Lee, and Lew
Alcindor (Kareem Abdul Jabar) down in China Town in 1967. When Oliver went blind, he
turned all of those shots over to Black Belt, which were put in storage, and to date, no one has
seen them. In the future, my website, JoeLewisFightingSystems.com, and
MartialArtsBooks.com will release old footage of many of my fights, which were shot on 8m
and Super 8m back in the 60s.

DW Forum - Mr. Lewis, who, in your opinion, do you think is responsible for glorifying, or
building up Bruce as a great warrior, with exceptional powers? The media, the fans or the
martial artists and people who actually met and knew him?

Joe Lewis - That is an interesting question. Movies create heroes and myths. The
combination of martial arts, which is steeped in myth and the magic of film helped create the
Bruce Lee that most people imagine to be real. My image is quite different. This was a guy
who was simply brilliant in his concepts, confidence and drive. Ill take that over the movies
any day. Either way we both win. Fans of Bruce have a real martial artist to champion and I
have an experience that no one can take away.

DW Forum - What are your thoughts on ground fighting; Gene Lebell said in an interview
once that Bruce loved it and "would eat it up. Did Bruce teach you any ground fighting, or
was he more into it later on in his life?

Joe Lewis - I began my training in weightlifting and wrestling as a teenager. I have always
felt grappling and weight training provides the best foundation for a fighter. Bruce Lee and I
did not do any ground fighting when I was working with him. I think all martial artists today
should practice ground maneuvers, such as how to shoot for the legs, a couple of good rear
chokes and front chokes, maybe a triangle choke, and sit-out arm bar, and a good standing
arm bar. Most of that standing wrist flexing and finger locking stuff does not work in a real
situation.

DW Forum - You stated before, that you thought that the UFC and other tournaments like
that, when they first started, actually pushed the martial arts back about 50 yrs; do you still
think that today, or has it improved in the last 4, or 5 yrs?

Joe Lewis - I never stated that any of the mixed martial arts events pushed martial arts back
50-years. Initially, the UFC events were set up as a challenge to other martial arts styles. I do
not play the challenge game. I feel it is very low class. I have never personally made a
challenge towards someone or accepted a challenge. It sends the wrong message in martial
arts. People who challenge others seem to me to be insecure about their accomplishments or
how others perceive their stature as a martial artist.

The fighters who have learned to punch more effectively have surpassed the mixed martial
arts fighters who only have grappling skills. When the day comes that the top fighters can
kick as well as punch, together with excellent grappling skills, that will be the birth of a great
sport.

DW Forum - You met Dan Inosanto for the first time ever and did an interview with him for
your new book; what was your impression of him before the interview and what was your
impression after?
Joe Lewis - Before I met Danny, I had known his daughter, Diana, and her husband for a
number of years. Contrary to the rumors I had heard, Diana told me that her father had great
respect for me. I found him to be very sociable, charming, and talkative. It was an extremely
pleasant first meeting. I think the two of us hit it off like two old kids who had grown up
together. He added a great deal to the insight and credibility to the book. Many of his
statements about his training with Bruce Lee were identical to those I had made about Bruce
over the past 30-years. In particular was the fact that both Danny and I stated that Bruce Lee
was constantly changing his definition of Jeet Kune Do and the correct application of its
respected combat drills. Many of these are illustrated in the book.

DW Forum - Do you think that Bruce Lee was gradually going to phase out trapping, wing
chung, in Jeet Kune and incorporate more Kickboxing?

Joe Lewis - No doubt, Bruce Lee was phasing out much of the trapping from his Wing
Chung training. He was incorporating a lot from kickboxing at the time I was working with
him. One example was when he threw his round kick. He was teaching people how to roll the
hip into the kick before you release the knee extension at contact. Another example was that
instead of kicking with your toes or the ball of your foot on the round kick, he began teaching
making contact with the anklebone and the lower part of the shin. He was also starting to add
more in and out type engaging drills. The old Wing Chung practitioners would penetrate their
opponents defensive perimeter, engage with a combination but neglect to pull out or
disengage at the end. Bruce was correcting this tactical oversight.

DW Forum - In your great fighting career, what was your greatest moment in the ring?

Joe Lewis - I had no great moments in the ring. I never enjoyed beating up another person.
My greatest moment in martial arts was the day they promoted me to black belt in Okinawa.
That was 40-years ago.

DW Forum - During your tournament days you were known for your power, speed and
finesse as a fighter, but you also didn't drink alcohol, coffee, tea, or smoke cigarettes, do you
still practice these good habits?

Joe Lewis - I still practice my clean-living habits today at age 60. I will compare my body
against any 25-year-old fighter today. I drink tea, but I never liked the taste of alcohol or
coffee, and I cannot stand cigarette smoke.

DW Forum - Tom Bleeker wrote a book on Bruce Lee and said in it that Bruce Lee used
steroids and I also read that he used drugs; during your time with Bruce, did you witness any
of this, if so was it once, twice, or not at all?

Joe Lewis - I do not know anything about Tom Bleeker, nor have I ever met him. As far as
Bruce Lee using steroids, I dont think it is anyones business. Steroids make fighters short-
winded, and only a fool would take them unless you need to gain weight quickly for some
professional purpose. The church; the state; or any of his peers did not own Bruce Lees body.
His body was his property and his only. Therefore, it is no ones business what he chose to
put in his body. I wish everyone would respect this philosophical principle.

DW Forum - Have you been in any knock down drag out street fights? If so, what was your
toughest fight outside the ring (if any)? Please explain in detail.

Joe Lewis - I have followed two rules all my life. I do not drink, and I do not hang out with
other guys. Why hang out with men when you can hang out with women? If you follow these
two simple rules, life is not only a hell of a lot more fun but it is impossible to get into street
fights. Street fighting is for two people: kids and/or hoodlums who have no respect for the
principles of being a responsible martial artist. Street fighters have two counts against them:
1) They try to solve problems by force, and 2) indirectly theyre teaching others that they
condone violence. I fully reject this premise.

DW Forum - Do you feel that as time goes by you are a better fighter (meaning in the street
not tournament competition) today then you were in your prime? Or is just a matter of
adjustments, as you grow older?

Joe Lewis - I have never thought of myself as being a better street fighter in any respect. I
know more today about how to avoid that kind of nonsense. I have nothing to prove by
getting into a street altercation. As was 30-to 40-years ago, if push comes to shove, my
favorite move has always been to spin my opponent into a rear choke. That way, no one gets
hurt, and when the cops come, there are no bruises or blood. Street fighters keep their records
down at the local police department. I want my fight records to remain where they belong
only in the record books.

DW Forum - Today there's definitely a huge misunderstanding of what JKD actually was,
would it would be fair to say that the basic aim of JKD was merely to become a natural
martial artist rather than a mechanical one?

Joe Lewis - The best way to answer this question is to ask the serious thinking martial artists
to not only read my book but to study and to use it as a research manual. Many black belts
from around the country who have already received their personal issue tell me that they
carry it with them always as a manual. In one of the chapters in the book, I discuss Bruce
Lees obsession with teaching martial artists how to avoid this trap of duality. As in acting or
any artistic endeavor, be it combat or a musician playing an instrument, ones execution of his
craft must always be in perfect unison between his technique and his current emotional state.
I explained in the book how this process could be learned and executed. It is one of the keys
to understanding the core of the premise of Jeet Kune Do philosophy.

DW Forum - 60-years from now, when people mention the name Joe Lewis, how would you
want to be remembered?

Joe Lewis - I have seriously never given this question any thought. To dignify my efforts and
to be able to have been known to live with dignity would be my greatest attribute. I feel that
few of us martial artists have ever accomplished that. I have never stated in public that I have
beaten anyone by name. I have never misrepresented my real rank nor have I ever claimed to
win a title that I had not. Although I failed my first green belt test in Okinawa, a year later,
when I was handed a second-degree black belt certificate, I refused to accept it. I am the only
martial artist in North America that I know of who has not only trained in every country from
Korea southward all the way to Australia, but I am perhaps the only one who received the last
rights from the same master priest in Tokyo who administered the last rights to the Kamikaze
pilots during World War II. I have tried to make the standard and the status for that which a
black belt stands to always represent a very noble and worthy accomplishment. I wish others
would respect and follow this same rule. I do not expect more than a handful of martial artists
to ever be able to duplicate my examples. However, I trust that some will be able to live in
the light of dignity, which I have described above.

DW Forum - Thanks again Joe for doing this interview with us.

Joe Lewis - Your very welcome.

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