4/3/2017 Tyreload,areaofcontact,andpressureF1technical.

net

DidyouknowyoucanuploadyouravataronF1T?It'sfastertoloadthanremoteimages!UpdateyouruserprofileatUCP

Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure
byShredcheddar01Feb2009,23:50

Hiagain.I'mcuriousastotherelationshipbetweencontactareaandfootprintpressureandhowtheychangewithverticaltyreload.

Ifoundaveryelementarycasestudy(http://www.performancesimulations.com/factorfictiontires1.htm)thatincludestyredatafromAvon,whichisthe
mostimportantpart.Theperson'sanalysisisn'tparticularlyhelpfultome.I'mwonderingifanyofyoubrilliantpeoplecoulddishoutsomemoreknowledge
andinsightofyourown.

I'mwillingtoacceptthattherelationshipF=(P)(A)won'tnecessarilyapply.WhatIwanttoexplorearethereasonswhy,andwhatkindofrelationship
betweenfootprintarea,contactpressure,andinflationpressuredoesexistinapplicationtothepneumatictyre.

Iintendtodosomeofmyownpokingaroundwiththatdata...Igavethatarticleaonceoverat3:00AMsoIhaven'tgleanedmuch.Inthemeantime,I
figuredI'dletyouallprovideyourinsightsoratleastmulloverthequestion.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byJerseyTom02Feb2009,15:58

I'dsaythat'sgottodependentirelyontheamountofreenforcementinthetire,whichisgoingtovary,potentiallyprettysignificantly.Ifyouhadan
infinitelyrigidcarcassandtreadyou'dhavealineofcontactpatchwithnearinfiniteunitpressure.Ifyouhadarubberballoonandpresseditdownona
plate,I'dimagineyou'dhaveaprettylinearrelationshipbetweenloadanarea.

Inanyevent,youdoknowthattheloadonthetireisgoingtobereactedbytheintegralofpressureovertheentireareaoftheprint.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byCiroPabn02Feb2009,16:57

Well,wealreadyknow(http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6300&start=26)thatthecontactpatcharea(therealareawheretherubber
touchestheground)isverydifferentfromtheflatareaofthetyre(thenominalfootprint),becausetheasphaltisrough,likethis:

The"true"contactareaisreallysmall...atleastforPirellityres.

...andthat'swhythetyreheatssoquickly

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6330 1/7
4/3/2017 Tyreload,areaofcontact,andpressureF1technical.net

AsJerseyTomexplains,whatthey'remeasuringismoretheflexionofthetyrethanthetruecontactarea.So,forfrictionestimationpurposes,ismoreorless
auselessexercise.I'dsayyou'relearningmoreabouttheflexionofthetyreandits"internalheat"generationthananythingelse,butImightbewrong.

However,IwascuriousabouttherelationshipyoucouldfindfromthefiguresgiveninthearticlelinkedbyShredcheddar.So,thisiswhatIgotinten
minutes,onlyforthefirstrelationshipbetweencontactareaandloadshowninthatarticle:

Thebluelineshowsthedata,thepinklinethebestfit

Therelationshipisnotlineal,asthearticlestates.ThebestfitIgotis:

Thecoefficientofcorrelationsquared( )is0.994,whichisprettygood.

Conclusion:thisisa"verystrong"potentialrelationship(bypotential,Imeanarelationshipoftheform ,I'mnotsureabouttheenglishterm),
becausetheexponentofXis0.3.Thismeansthatforveryhighloadstheareadoesnotincreasesignificantly,whichisreasonable.

HowdoIvisualizeit?My"visual"isthis:forexample,asJerseyTomstates,ifitisanspherictyreandthereisnowaytomakeitexplode ,thenthereis
alsonowayforthecontactpatchtobelargerthanthemaximumdiameterofthetyre,oncethetyreis"flattenedcompletely"anditrestsontheasphalt,soit's
definitelynotalinealrelationship.Ofcourse,realtyresburstatthewallslongbeforereachingthatstate,but,hey,"it'sallaboutthevision"...

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6330 2/7
4/3/2017 Tyreload,areaofcontact,andpressureF1technical.net

Ihavenotimetomakethesamecorrelationfortheotherdatagiveninthearticle.Justincase,hereyouhavetheExcelfileIused.Maybesomeonewishto
trytheotherdatasetstoseewhatresultshegets.Theonlythingtodoistoreplacethedatasets(thefirstfivecolumns).

ExcelfilewiththecorrelationbetweenContactAreaandLoad(http://cirospictures.googlepages.com/PatchContactAreavsLoad.xls)

Finally,Ifindcurious(butnotconclusiveinanyway,it'sjustacorrelation)thatthepatchareaisroughlyproportionaltothecuberootoftheload.Iwas
expectinganexponentof2/3,aswediscussedinthepreviousthread(http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6300&start=17).

TheexponentIgotis0.3,verycloseto0.333whichisthecuberoot.Thiscouldmeanthatthetyreexpandsroughlythesamewayintwoofitsthreeaxis.I
repeat:could.AmIwrong?Hasanyoneseenpicturesofthenominalfootprinttodiscernifitexpandsthesamewayinlengthasinwidth?Itseemsit
doesn't...perhapsthesteelreinforcementrestrictssomehowthe"length",butI'mjustguessinghere.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byConceptual02Feb2009,18:07

See,thispostbyCiroisexactlywhyitisnotabadthingtoaskthesamequestionagain.Bytakingthetimeandefforttocondensemanypagesofthe
previousthread,youhaveeffectivelycreatedaveryniceFAQthatwillnodoubtbringmuchtraffictothiswebsiteovertime.

Ithankyoufornotn00bingthisquestion,itwasveryinformative!

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byShredcheddar03Feb2009,02:13

Conceptualwrote:
See,thispostbyCiroisexactlywhyitisnotabadthingtoaskthesamequestionagain.Bytakingthetimeandeffortto
condensemanypagesofthepreviousthread,youhaveeffectivelycreatedaveryniceFAQthatwillnodoubtbring
muchtraffictothiswebsiteovertime.

Ithankyoufornotn00bingthisquestion,itwasveryinformative!

Iagree...bravo,Ciro!

OneofthereasonsIpostedthisthreadwastolookmoreintoCiro'smentionoffrictionforcebeingproportionaltothe2/3poweroftheload.

CiroPabnwrote:
AsJerseyTomexplains,whatthey'remeasuringismoretheflexionofthetyrethanthetruecontactarea.So,forfriction
estimationpurposes,ismoreorlessauselessexercise.I'dsayyou'relearningmoreabouttheflexionofthetyreandits
"internalheat"generationthananythingelse,butImightbewrong.

Iagreewithyouhere,certainly.Anunscientificmethodatbest,butthetrendsarestillthere.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6330 3/7

4/3/2017 Tyreload,areaofcontact,andpressureF1technical.net

However,Iwascuriousabouttherelationshipyoucouldfindfromthefiguresgiveninthearticlelinkedby
Shredcheddar.So,thisiswhatIgotintenminutes,onlyforthefirstrelationshipbetweencontactareaandloadshownin
thatarticle:

Therelationshipisnotlineal,asthearticlestates.ThebestfitIgotis:



Thecoefficientofcorrelationsquared( )is0.994,whichisprettygood.

Conclusion:thisisa"verystrong"potentialrelationship(bypotential,Imeanarelationshipoftheform ,
I'mnotsureabouttheenglishterm),becausetheexponentofXis0.3.Thismeansthatforveryhighloadstheareadoes
notincreasesignificantly,whichisreasonable.

IintendedtolookatthosetrendswhenIgothometoday,soperhapsIwilltrytomatchyourcontribution.

Finally,Ifindcurious(butnotconclusiveinanyway,it'sjustacorrelation)thatthepatchareaisroughlyproportionalto
thecuberootoftheload.Iwasexpectinganexponentof2/3,aswediscussedinthepreviousthread
(http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6300&start=17).

Ciro,somethingIwonderedwhenyoupostedthatwasamoreexactmeaningoftherelationshipyoustated.WhatImeanis,yousaidfrictionforceis
proportionaltothe2/3powerofload.Youexplainedthattheapparentlinearityoffrictionwithload(formetals)wasattributedtothefactthatrealcontact
areachangesasafunctionofload.Basedonthatstatement,Istilldon'treallyunderstandthenatureofrealcontactarea'seffectonfriction.I
understandthatitchangeswithload,certainly,butmathematicallyIdon'tunderstandhowtointerpret"frictionforceisproportionaltothe2/3powerofload"
withrespecttoarea,whenatthesametimemetallicfrictionappearslinearlyrelatedtoload.

Followmeonalittlemindtrekthatprobablydoesn'tmakeanysense.I'moperatingonsomeassumptionsthatareconfusingandprobablywrong:

Irememberthinkingthatifyoumeantfrictionwasproportionaltothe2/3powerofnormalstress,thatleavesroomforatermexpressingrealcontactareaas
afunctionofloadmorespecifically,proportionaltothe1/3powerofload.

RobertSmith,inhisbookAnalyzingFrictionintheDesignofRubberProductsandTheirPairedSurfaces,definesthemetalliccoefficientoffriction as
theratioofthebulkshearingstress ofthematerialdividedbythebulkyieldstress ofthematerial.

So,dowehavesomethingthatlooksmorelike:

Whichsimplifiesto:

WhereDisaunitlessconstant.

So,eveninspiteofthatabove(andperhapsmeaningless)mathematicalmanipulation,shouldn'twebelookingforevidencethatareaisafunctionof ?
Thatseemstobeakeytrend.

AllofthismakesCiro'sfindingveryinteresting.Butwait,there'smoreofthis exponent.

Ijustreadthislastnight,onpage20ofRobertSmith'sAnalyzingFrictionintheDesignofRubberProductsandTheirPairedSurfaces.Smithpresents
Schallamach'sfindingswhentestingthefrictioncoefficientofslidingrubberversustheappliedpressure:

Softrubber:

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6330 4/7
4/3/2017 Tyreload,areaofcontact,andpressureF1technical.net

Hecallsthisan"empirical,Hertzlikeequation"(forthoseofyoufamiliarwithHertz'sequationIamnot).

Sotherearesometrendshere.Mymindistoomixedupwiththealphabetsoupofnewinformation.ButIwillpostthishopingthatoneofyoucancorrector
guideme,orattheveryleasttoarchivemythoughts.

So,asadisclaimer,Iprobablyhaveeverythingmixedup.ThatthoughtprocessaboveresultedfromanassumptionthatCirowastalkingaboutmetallic
frictionanditsapparentlinearitywithload,andmyattempttofigureouthowtwoquantitiescouldvarynonlinearlyandstillappearlinearwhencombined.
Averyreverseengineeredderivationwithalotofholes,I'msure.

Phwew.Notexactlysomethingtowindyourminddownonafterwork.I'vegotaheadache...timeforsometea.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byConceptual03Feb2009,04:10

Thisisgonnabegood...

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byShredcheddar03Feb2009,05:01

Ihopewe'regettingsomewhere.WaitingontheheavyhittersMr.PabnandJerseyTom.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byJerseyTom03Feb2009,06:23

F=ma.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byGecko03Feb2009,11:39

Oneshouldfirsttrytomakeacleardistinctionbetweenthe"largescale"areaandthe"smallscale"areaofthecontactpatch.

Whenlookingatthewholetyre,thecontactareathatisbeingdiscussedisofalargescale,whereitappearsthatthewholebottompartofa(slick)tyreisin
contactwiththeroad.However,onthesmallscales,asCiroexplainsabove,theactualcontactareaismuchlowerduetotheirregularitiesoftheroad
surface.

It'sthereforebesttothinkintermsoffractions,takingtheratioofthesmallscaleareatothetotallargescaleareainapartofthecontactpatch.Thiscan
neverbegreaterthanone.Thisfraction,however,doesnotdependonthelargerdimensionsofthetyredirectlybutonlytothelocalpressureapplied,witha
highlynonlinear(powerlaw,thisisthewordyouarelookingfor,Ciro)dependence,asexplainedinPersson'swork.Thelocalpressureinthecontactpatch,
ontheotherhand,isindeeddeterminedbythelargertyrepropertiessuchasradius,pressure,loadetc.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byriff_raff07Feb2009,10:04

ShredCheddar,

Tirecontactareaisafunctionofappliedforceandthetire'sstructuralstiffness.Thetire'sstructuralstiffnessisaffectedbytheconstructionandmaterials
usedinthetirebody,andtheinflationpressureofthetire(ormoreprecisely,thedistributedinternalforcepreloadingthetirebodythatmustbeovercometo
createthedeflectedtirecontactpatch).

Havingsaidallofthat,theareaofthetirecontactpatchisnotimportantwithregardstoitstractioncapability.Thetiretractioncapabilityissolelyafunction
ofitstractioncoefficient(Mu)timesthenormalforce(Fn)appliedtoit.That'swhyaerodownforceissoimportant.

F1tiresareprimarilyasuspensiondevice.Ifyou'veeverlookedatanF1tire,you'llhavenoticedthattheyhaveverytallsidewalls.Thetiresidewallis
wheremostofthesuspensiontravelinanF1cartakesplace.Thetireinflationpressuredeterminesitsspringrate,soinflationpressuresareaverycritical
partofchassissetup.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byGecko07Feb2009,12:52

Thatisnotreallytrue.Forrubber,thecoefficientMuisverymuchdependentuponthelocalpressureappliedandthereforedirectlyrelatestocontactpatch
area.Thebiggerthisarea,thelowerthepressureontothecontactpatchandthehigherthecoefficientmu,thereforebiggertraction.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byxpensive07Feb2009,13:05

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6330 5/7
4/3/2017 Tyreload,areaofcontact,andpressureF1technical.net

AsIcanrecall,itwasratherplausiblyconcludedinanotherthreadrecently,thattractiongeneratedbetweenasoftandadheisivetyreandaroughsurfaceisa
littletoocomplicatedtobeexplainedbyaconventional"Mu"factor?

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byShredcheddar08Feb2009,06:02

RiffRaff,allowmetorespectfullydisagree.Ihavebeenenlightenedbythefindingsandresearchofsomebrilliantmen.Pleasereadon.

I'vebeendoingsomereadingandIthinkIhavefoundsomeanswersthattiealotoftheselooseendstogether.

ThisstuffcomesonceagainfromRobertSmith'sAnalyzingFrictionintheDesignofRubberProductsandTheirPairedSurfaces.

In1886,aguynamedHertzderivedexpressionsforthecontactradius(r)forasphereincontactwithaflatpairedsurface.

Theexpressionisasfollows:

WhereR=radiusofthesphere,
, =Young'smoduliofthesphereandflatsurfacematerials,and
, =Poisson'sratiosforthetwomaterials.

Remember,risthecontactradiusbetweenthetwomaterials,thequantitythatwe'reinterestedin.

Let'slookatthatequationagain!Notetheexponent.

SoHertz'sexpressionmatchesthefindingsfromthatsimpletiredataabove(Ciro'spost).

Sohowdoesrealareaofcontactvarytothe ofappliedload ?Seemssimpleonceit'spointedout:theareaofthecontactcircle(forasphere)isjust

pimultipliedbythesquareofr.

= =

Whichissimplyequivalentto

Hereisthemostimportantpart:

"Becauseadhesiveforcesinrubberfrictionariseintherealareasofcontact, canbereplacedby ,theadhesiveforcedevelopedbetweenthetwo

solidsand isreplacedby ,theadhesionalconstantforthetwosurfacesincontact.AnalyzingFriction

Thus,

TurnsoutthisequationismodifiedlaterinthebooktoaccountforVanDerWaal'sadhesionforces(rememberCiro'spost?).Anyways,thispostandwhat
I'vereadanswersomeimmediatequestions,but,atleastforme,understandingthebigpicturestilllooms.Forexample,justifyingthatfinalstatementby
Smithissomewhathardforme...Hertz'sequationappliestomanypairedmaterials.Itwasoriginallyconceivedforglassspheres!

SoIwanttounderstandmetallicfrictioninparallel.Ifthisrealcontactareamechanismaffectsbothmetalandrubberfriction,andtheexpressionforreal
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6330 6/7
4/3/2017 Tyreload,areaofcontact,andpressureF1technical.net

contactareaisnonlinearwithload,whydoesmetalfrictionbehavelinearlywithloadwhilerubberfrictiondoesnot?!Grr.Ifeelliketheansweristoo
obviousandrightundermynosebutitsimplydoesnotclick.

Tostateitinmoreconfusing(mathematical)terms,whydoesthefollowinghappen?

Forrubber:
Formetal:

LasteditedbyShredcheddaron08Feb2009,06:11,edited1timeintotal.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byJerseyTom08Feb2009,06:09

Don'tthinkIagreewiththecommentthatthetireiswheremostofthesuspensiontravelis,either.Unlessyou'rerunningonpackers..tirerateisprobably
goingtobehigherthanwheelrate,soyou'llstillgetmostofyourtravelthroughthelinkage.

Re: Tyre load, area of contact, and pressure

byGecko08Feb2009,09:55

ThepartaboutwheelrateascomparedtothespringrateinanF1carisactuallycorrectthetwoareroughlycomparable.Thisisalsothereasonwhythe
massdampersprovedsuchanadvantageforRenaultonceyouhavelittlesuspensionmovement,itistrickytoachievetherightamountofdampinginthe
dampersthemselves,andamassdampercantakeoverthatrole.

China trusted Wheel Repair Lathe

Alloy Wheel Repair supplier. Many types of Wheel
Lathe Repair Lathe. Order.

F1Technical.net19992017 PoweredbyphpBBforum Privacy Terms

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6330 7/7