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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > C hemistry for Ama teur Experim ente rs and Citizen Scientists
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > Sulphuric Acid Synthesis
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------------------
Live Forever!
Edit: No, I realised it is Iron(III) Sulfate and the Iron Sulfate topic mainly deals with Iron(II) Sulfate. So I will post it in the
oleum thread, after I type it...
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 21, 2001).]
Disturbed, what sort of concentration of hydrogen peroxide is needed to get a decent concentration of H2SO4? Is the 3% stuff
sold at pharmacies ok?
------------------
Live Forever!
[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 22, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 22, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 22, 2001).]
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====
kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
------------------
Live Forever!
[This message has been edited by X-Wulf (edited August 28, 2001).]
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====
kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
------------------
Live Forever!
This shouldn't be considered a indoor project unless you have a fume hood. So for most of you that means outdoors only. A
gas mask wouldn't hurt either. And gloves for dealing with the acid.
Or If you live in the US go to the hardware store and just buy a half gallon of the stuff. That's what we have industry for.
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With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
------------------
all wize men have unwize fantasies < ^ >
------------------
Live Forever!
You can also try platinum (expensive) and ironoxide (less efficient about 50 %, but cheap)
The main problem with absorbing SO3 into water is that it will create a H2SO4 mist when it reacts with the water. Industrially it
is always absorbed in 98% H2SO4 and then dilluted. This mist is a drag to absorb...or condense since the H2SO4 particles are
extremely small.
By bubbling SO2, NO2 and air through several cascaded absorbers you will get H2SO4 in each one.
Main problem is that above 65 % H2SO4 the above reaction is not effective , so this sets the upper limit of concentration. In
the old days they solved this by distilling the acid up to 98 %, is more simply boiled it in open pans until it was the right
concentration, some acid (5-10 %) was lost this way.
/rickard
[This message has been edited by rikkitikkitavi (edited September 30, 2001).]
Theoretically, chemical supply houses may sell certain chemicals (such as acids, ntrates and chlorates/perchlorates) to the
public, assuming that a legitimate (and reasonable) "excuse" is provided. The problem here is thinking up such an excuse
(especially for the ClO4's).
------------------
Live Forever!
The hydrogen peroxide would probably need some sort of catalyst, manganese dioxide is too fast acting, maybe the sulfur
dioxide would be a catalyst in and of itself?? This seems like a good method, as the starting materials, sulfur and
concentrated peroxide are easy to get, plus I could easily construct the apparatus, using wire, a funnel, a porcelein dish and
an alcohol lamp for a sulfur combustion chamber, and from the top of the funnel would be an acid proof tube leading into the
beaker of conc. H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>. Does this sound like it would work? If my scanner weren't broken I'd draw up
a diagram to illustrate it better.
------------------
Damn, I got a nitro-headache again...
http://move.to/pyromania
The problem is that the sulfuric acid might react with alcohol (dehydration) and forming ether or ethane if I dont remember
wrong, especially at higher temperatures.
I like to mention that I haven' t tried it out, but before I waste time and money :
Anybody having any idea about how to separate the products. Distillation seems like a good way to produce ether...and diluted
sulfuric acid.
Na2SO4 is insoluble in alcohol and not very soluble in H2SO4, so much I know.
/rickard
/rickard
This method can be used to concentrate H2SO4 to oleum like said in this topic before.
The text is in german language but perhaps you can use a translator.
The original source is the book from rudolph glauber "Teutschlands Wolfart" from 1656.
Does anyone knows where to get a copy of those very old books?
http://dc2.uni-bielefeld.de/dc2/wwwcu/vitriol.htm
NaHSO4 dont dissolve in alcohol, it decomposes! Netiher does Na2SO when the water concetration is low.
/rickard
NaHSO4 is commonly used as a agent to lower the pH in pools. That is also a source of it.
/rickard
according to litteraure. but when I tried to heat NH4HSO4 it didnt smell of SO2 at first but gave a very irritating non-smelling
odour similar to what you get when boiling diluted sulfuric acid, so some SO3 must be formed. After a while a strong smell of
SO2 emerged. But its very slow.
If you could converte NH4HSO4 into NaHSO4 this can be decomposed to Na2SO4 and SO3
(se previous post)
Trivalent metall sulfates gives M2O3+ SO3 when heated , divalent metall sulfates decomposes at such high temperatuers that
SO3 decomposes into SO2.
/rickard
I didnt inhale...
I have had worse coffs after a good joint or a cigarette, it all a matter of the dose.
/rickard
How is NaHSO4 made? if both are heated togather would they refprm NaHSO4?
Somewhere in the Nitric Acid forum, I remember reading that someone heated nitric acid with sulfur in it. It began reacting,
releasing NOx, which was collected in a container with water. Left behind was sulfuric acid. The NOx solution is, ofcourse, Nitric
acid, so it can be concentrated. Thus you don't lose any nitric acid, except for a tiny bit in lost vapors & stuff...
Just imagine, you could literally make gallons of quality sulfuric acid this way.
To burn my sulfur I put it in a stoppered 500mL flask and pumped air through it. I had some difficulty getting the sulfur to
ignite but once it lit it burned well so long as the O2 was flowing through it. I got lots of sulfur vapor while trying to get it to
burn, but if you lift the stopper off and hold a flame above the mouth of the flask it will get it all burning. I know this method
wasn't the best but I came up with bubcus for other ideas. What has anyone else done to burn their sulfur?
Just to clarify, were you running air or pure oxygen through your sulfur burning flask?
Sorry for the confusion. I was testing for proof of concept so I was just using air. The problem with getting the sulfur to ignite
seemed to be that it needed a better source of ignition. I was using a hotplate instead of burner as it did less damage to my
rubber stoppers. When using a burner it was quite difficult to get the sulfur burning instead of just boiling, even with plenty of
air flowing through the flask. Introducing a naked flame near the mouth of the flask and then stoppering it again after the
vapors lit and got the rest burning seemed to work. This would be entirely too tedious to actually make H2SO4 though.
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tranquillity January 19th, 2008, 05:32 AM
A possible way to ignite the sulphur might be to add a very small amount of chlorate/sulphur mix as a pile in the centre of a
large amount of sulphur in the reaction vessel. The chlorate could then be ignited with a strong acid or heating which should
hopefully continue to burn the rest of the sulphur with a continual stream of air/oxygen.
If you are having a few problems with getting it to ignite, you could experiment with adding differing amounts of KNO3 to your
sulphur before you add it to your burner. If you used only a small amount, it would assist in raising the temperature of the
sulphur to auto-ignition, as well as possibly keeping it burning.
To keep a flame going, one might use the ignition of an old oven. You know, where it ticks 2-3 times a second to light the gas
on the elements. It would work just like a butane lighter I'd hope.
If there is no flame, you will get finely powdered sulphur in whatever you are using to collect your product. While this might not
be a bad thing for some applications, it is annoying when you come back to find all your tubing blocked up with condensed
sulphur...
Hell, if you used a electrochemical cell with a sulfuric acid electrolyte you might as well skip a bubbler and let the ozone
produced react with sulfur and water directly at the anode, effectively getting a "sulfuric acid from sulfur in one pot" machine.
AND WTF is "ur", "thru"? Sounds like language abuse to me, 14-year old h4x0R slang. It gives me a headache.
The best way to get sulfuric acid *especially if you need over azeotrope acid or oleum* is to take some scrap iron, hit it with
drain cleaner of battery acid to make FeSO4 (you might be able to buy it at a garden store), then put it in a steel tube and
heat it up to 600*C with a dry air current the whole time. The exiting air/SO3 mix is bubbled into sulfuric acid to concentrate it
too 100% or higher (ie. oleum).
Oleum is extremely expensive to get from a chemical supplier and impossible to buy any other way. It also happens to be
very useful in syntheses that require a mixed acid nitration and many others, like various war gases, etc.
The process is simple, dehydrate phosphoric acid in a copper crucible up to 400*C or so with a propane torch, then mix with
the appropriate amount of azeotropic sulfuric acid and heat. Run the vapors into more concentrated H2SO4 to produce oleum.
The phosphoric acid can then be re dehydrated and used again.
From what I hear oleum is extremely useful for many nitrations, increasing yields substantially or in some cases is essential.
It is also a useful reagent for many organic syntheses.
AFAIK HPO3 can also dehydrate HNO3 to N2O5 which also some vary handy applications pertaining to explosives. Like directly
nitrating exotic things, etc.
Not to contest what you said, but I would be very glad if someone (or you) may provide references (and files) for these
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procedures. Regards.
Read the whole thread. The stuff pertaining to the use of metaphosphoric acid is in the last two or three pages.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > H2O2 from
OxyClean?
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Sodium percarbonate (or sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate) is a non-hazardous granular product developed as an alternative to
perborate bleaches in household detergents. When dissolved into water, its releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate).
OxyClean contains this percarbonate (potassium percarbonate, actually, and maybe sodium percarbonate as well. I cant remember) as do some color-safe powdered bleaches.
Now this is just an idea, but it says it has about 30% w/w of H2O2, so would it be possible to maybe: make a saturated (or supersaturated maybe?) solution of the
percarbonate, and react it with some acid to form a less soluble (or maybe insoluble altogether?) compound than Na2CO3, and then aid precipitation by cooling it down a lot,
then filtering. Maybe even if its possible doing an extraction with solvents to further separate them (not sure about that.)
If it worked you could get a reasonable purity high conc. H2O2. If you were making AP or HTMD with it though, you'd need to add more acid, since any Na2CO3 would
neutralize it.
Maybe HCl could be used since it would form NaCl which is neither acid nor base, and anything that couldnt be separated would possibly be less affected by it.
[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited July 30, 2001).]
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Monkeyman
-I use to think H2O2 was basic myself. I then did some research on the internet and found a great site. It is acidic, and it's PH depends on the concentration.
EDIT: Because of the alkalinity of Na2CO3, the obtained H2O2 solutions is very unstable and should be used ASAP and kept absolutely clean, that is allow no dust or other crap
to enter.
Then I have mixed 1l bleach ("Ace - Milde Bleiche", contains 5-15% oxygen based bleach) with 200ml Aceton and 250ml 24%HCL in a 5l canister.
After 3-4 Days i had 36.8g (after recrystallising) of a white explosive powder with a very low density. Maybe it's pure DPPP!
Thank you
A number of extraction techniques are mentioned. Specifically using ether to extract 100% H2O2, which has been done by a member, and confirmed safe. An unconfirmed idea
is the use of silica gel to extract the water from the mix, leaving peroxide. Its mentioned that simple evaporating in rotovap takes peroxide concentrations to 70+%. Salting the
peroxide out with common salts is also mentioned.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Obtaining/producing
oleum, how to make SO2
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Oleum is formed by dissolving Sulfur Trioxide (SO3) in concentrated Sulfuric Acid. SO3 is obtained by reacting SO2 with oxygen over a catalyst (e.g. Vanadium). SO2 is
produced from burning sulfur.
None of these processes are for the faint of heart (or stomach). Doing this sort of chemistry in populated areas is sure to make you personna non grata.
For that process, iron oxide (rust) can be used as the catalyst instead of vanadium oxide, and you need a platinum catalyst near the end I hear. It's a very tricky process, and
you won't see me trying it.
All you need is an hermetic acid-heat-pressure resistant reactor, SO2, O2, a catalyst, heat and a cold trap to condense the solid SO3!!!SO2 and O2 are gases while SO3 is not!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
I have had some problems with the temperature required for cracking, stoppers and tubing etc. are melting! I have switched to ground glass hardware now, but have not yet
cranked up the rig to see if it works.:D
I suppose you've seen garage chemist's member publication about sulfur trioxide and it's accompanying thread over at SM? He used sodium persulfate instead of sodium
bisulfate. I can see why you'd want to use sodium bisulfate; it's much cheaper. However, as you mentioned, the decomposition of the bisulfate produces both water and SO3.
GC had trouble only getting rid of the water before further decomposition. Of course, SO3 + H2O <---> H2SO4. You'd only be getting 100% sulfuric acid (fuming sulfuric acid).
A catalyst is another aspect you need to take into account. Na2S2O7 does not decompose and give off SO3 without a catalyst (according to GC). I'd suggest MgSO4 rather than
H2SO4, as I imagine that a catalytic amount of H2SO4 would be evaporated at the high temperature you have listed.
I'd advise some tests before bubbling your SO3 directly into conc. sulfuric acid. Because of the likely small yields of your experiment, it's even less likely that you could tell if
you're bubbling SO3 or H2SO4 into your sulfuric acid. Why not use the high MP of SO3 (16*C) to your advantage? Cool your receiving flask and see if the proposed SO3
solidifies.
Whether you use sodium bisulfate or sodium persulfate, your yields will probably be pitiful. I don't know what your use for the oleum is, but you're going to need a heck of a
lot of starting material to get any quantity of oleum with a significant dissolved SO3 content. That means many small batches. I looked into producing sulfur trioxide for thionyl
chloride (and in turn thionyl chloride for acetic anhydride) and I decided it wasn't worth it.
Sulfur trioxide is extremely corrosive. It instantly carbonizes any organic matter it touches, including skin. A drop placed on wood instantly makes a black spot, under strong
fizzing and fuming. The same happens when a drop falls on the skin.
Sulfur trioxide also reacts with water with explosive violence. When a drop of water falls into a flask containing SO3, the flask usually shatters because of the violent reaction
and localized heating. [I.e., wait until your glassware stops fuming before washing it out and neutralizing with a base. Also, when adding your SO3 to sulfuric acid, use good
stirring and 0*C acid.]
SO3 fumes in air very strongly. The synthesis must be carried out outside or under a fume hood.
Tried your suggestion as well and cooled flask... bingo solid SO3.
I am trying to find a way to fully use the gas stream, possibly by bubbling through two beakers in series. Can I cool the SO3 down and keep it cool to store it? Can it be added
directly as a solid by some method to the H2SO4?
I wouldn't try to manufacture oleum this way, but for personal use it looks like it's going to be cheaper and easier than buying it!
The bisulphate is heated to about 320C at which point it is dehydrated to Sodium pyrosulphate, Na2S2O7. This is then heated at about 460C to produce Sulphur trioxide and
Sodium sulphate by thermal decomposition. The Sulphur trioxide can be condensed and collected (its boiling point is 45C).
I assume this can be added carefully to conc. sulphuric acid, first reacting with any water present to produce more sulphuric acid until 100% concentration is achieved. At this
point any sulphur trioxide added will be used to produce oleum.
As a word of warning the addition of sulphur trioxide to conc sulphuric acid should be cooled as the reaction between the SO3 and the water present is very exothermic. It is
also more efficient if you start with the highest conc. of acid you can to prevent wasting precious SO3 to make H2SO4
A small amount of H2SO4 is turned into Oleum with the addition of SO3.
The resulting Oleum is then very carefully diluted into a stoichiometric amount of distilled water, resulting in more concentrated H2SO4.
goto 1
I also tried making SO3 this way but had a zero to terrible yield. I was a bit too liberal with my glass grease and I think most of the SO3 produced went to work on it instead of
making a happy little deposit in the collection flask. I ended up with black shit everywhere and some very acidic liquid. My bisulfate probably wasn't fully decomposed yet.
Could you describe your setup and process in a little bit more detail, maybe some pictures too? :)
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Density Table
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density table of :
- chlorohydric acid
- sulfuric acid
- am m onia water
a big thanx...
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 03, 2001).]
thanx...
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 04, 2001).]
But: By simply adding up the volumes of the starting materials 126.69+4.17=130.86m l. T h a t m e a n s t h a t t h e m i x t u re of the
two has a lower volum e - it shrinked! To verify that this is not a peculiarity occurin g n e a r 1 0 0 % , g o o n t o 9 0 % :
+6.94g H2O = 111.11g 90% EtO H @ 0.8180 g/m l = 135.833 m l while it "should" be 137.8 m l.
S a m e is true of m e t h a n o l :
1 0 0 g 1 0 0 % M e O H @ 0.7917 g/m l = 126.31 m l
+ 1 1 . 1 1 g H 2 O = 1 1 1 . 1 1 g 9 0 % M e O H @ 0 . 8 2 0 4 g / m l = 135.44 m l ("should" be 137.41 ml) etc.
The reverse of this, when you take away the water, and the volum e inflates, is called "dilatation". This is what happens in the
sulfuric acid above 97% concentration. It is not obvious why this happens only above 97% while in alcohols this can be taken
further. Therefore you should better trust the literature data and if you distrust them , prove them wrong first!
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"I ju s t n e e d s o m e tolene...tolyl? How you call that stuff mam , n e e d t o h e l p m y m other painting..."
W ithout destroying th e s a m ple, you co uld test for its refractive index.
There is an indicative estimation I use to test the boiled acid that has been stored for a long tim e - d r o p s o m e o n t i s s u e p a p e r
etc. - with the conc. at 90%, the paper slowly gets brown or purple, but at 97% it turns into a black sponge of carbon instantly
with characteristic sou nd. With
s o m e practice you can estimate the conc. to the percent (you'll have to stick to a particular brand of paper, tho)
/rick ard
I know it's very concentrated cause i was able to make fuming nitric acid with it(alm o s t p o i s o n e d m yself with NO2 opening the
bottle inside, dam n that gives a headache). I'll try the freezing point method. Thanks alot.
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"I ju s t n e e d s o m e tolene...tolyl? How you call that stuff mam , n e e d t o h e l p m y m other painting..."
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m onte
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Lagen D e c e m ber 11th, 2001, 06:35 PM
The web is not a good source of such info. Libraries are much better. But I do happen to have a small PDF with these and a
couple other tables. Unfortunately m y site got deleted so I can't provide a link. Maybe I'll set up another account and upload
just this file to see if it gets deleted again. And I'll mail it to you .
And where I got this one? Long, long ago, somehow I m anaged to sign up for the online version of the CRC book. Then saved
everything to disk. It was just 50MB, but there were 212 6 files if I remem ber correctly... Needless to say m y hand got a bit
sore ...
m ery x-m a s p e o p l e ! !
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m onte
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > superpowerful
explosive
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http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991103
[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited August 03, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited August 05, 2001).]
Seven times as much energy is just about twice as much as NG, which is credible, but a million times faster thats about 20 times the speed of light. The question is if this
information is totally erroneous or if they mean something quite different from what they say.
Maybe it doesn't mean "million" as in 1 000 000 but as in "much" or "lot's". People often use "million" to describe something in excess, especially when they don't know the
actual figure.
And, I am unsure (it is hard to say) about the detonation velocity but it is probably in the range of 7000-10,500 m/s.
6.9 x 10^9 m/s (speed of light is 2.998 x 10^8 m/s) is a definite exaggeration. What they meant to say: "explodes faster than TNT!".
-
"We are not your job. We are not how much you have in the bank. We are not the car you drive. We are not the contents of your wallet. We are the all-singing, all-dancing
crap of the world."
[This message has been edited by fightclub (edited August 08, 2001).]
Submitted for your approvial, I just happen to have the article written by Dr. Kovalev around here somewhere... sonabitch I can't get remote access, but I do have some more
details until I can get to the local university in person.
Title: Strong Explosive Interaction of Hydrogenated Porous Silicon with Oxygen at Cryogenic Temperatures
Authors: Kovalev, D.a; Timoshenko, V. Yu.a; Knzner, N.a; Gross, E.a; Koch, F.a
Abstract: We report new types of heterogeneous hydrogen-oxygen and silicon-oxygen branched chain reactions which have been found to proceed explosively after
the filling of pores of hydrogen-terminated porous silicon (Si) by condensed or liquid oxygen in the temperature range of 4.290 K. Infrared vibrational absorption
spectroscopy shows that, while initially Si nanocrystals assembling the layers have hydrogen-terminated surfaces, the final products of the reaction are SiO2 and H2O . Time-
resolved optical experiments show that the explosive reaction develops in a time scale of 10-6s . We emphasize the remarkable structural properties of porous Si layers which
are crucial for the strong explosive interaction.
This is from Vol: 87, Issue: 6, August 6, 2001 of Physical Review Letters.
While I am on the topic of looking at journals, I have the power to get just about any article one could want. Why here is a goody, the Journal of Propellants, Explosives, and
Pyrotechnics: This international journal provides a vital forum for the exchange of ideas in the areas of propellants, explosives, primers and pyrotechnics, and combustion and
detonation processes. Its coverage of propellants and explosives includes their preparation, investigation, analysis, testing and evaluation. Results of theoretical or practical
investigations into combustion and detonation processes such as internal ballistics of guns and rockets or high-explosive ballistics are also included.
Kind of sounds like what we do here http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I should reprint this in the intro.
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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
[This message has been edited by megalomania (edited August 10, 2001).]
This is the homepage of the "inventors". Click the link at the bottom of the page to see a video of a 6mg (!!!) sample.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://kangaroooo.cjb.net)
First of all, they do mean silicon, as in the elemental form of silicon. Porous silicon, like they said, has an unbelievable quantity of nanoscale holes in it's molecular structure.
The silicon itself is crystallized in the cubic system IIRC, just like carbon. But the (much) lower electronegativity of silicon, and the further atomic radii of its valence orbitals,
creates a much higher energy output when it combines with an electronegative molecule like diatomic oxygen, than say the same reaction with carbon would.
As the oxygen comes into contact with the PURE silicon, the highly energetic state of the electrons is disturbed. They are easily torn from their orbitals in a very rapid reaction
with the oxygen. The corresponding orbital rearrangement involves electrons cascading to lower energy states at a very rapid rate. This energy must go somewhere. Guess
where?
Combine this with the scenario of LIQUID oxygen being involved, and you get this monstrous explosion. The thermal energy (cryogenic temperature) has nothing to do with the
energy output. Liquid oxygen has over 600 times the available oxygen content per volume than gaseous oxygen. At this pressure-volume configuration of only standard
atmospheric pressure and such incredible density, equilibrium STRONGLY favors dissipation/expansion. The oxygen literally rips through the silicon molecule invading all its
crevices with strong force.
As for the cryogenic temperature, the specific heat of oxygen and silicon is not high at all compared to heavier elements such as iron and above, and it takes minimal energy to
raise their temperature. The sheer energy release/mass to absorb it ratio is so high that those temperatures mean nothing with such a small mass and high surface area.
BOOM.
PrimoPyro
Wow....
You take almost anything at room temperature, add LOX, and you get a damned fast burn.
Iron burns in air if you divide it finely - just stick a 9v battery into it, or a match. Corn flour will explode as a dust, just in the atmosphere, which is gaseous and only about
21% oxygen.
Combine the two, and *surprise* you get an even faster burn.
You can do the same with any finely divided fuel, and LOX. The real trick would be to take the LOX and soak the fuel in it *without* it going pop, and then being able to set it
off when you wanted, rather than just on contact. This would allow far better conversion of the available fuel, and hence far more powerful explosions.
You can make this stuff really easily, too. Just work out where to buy LOX from, then make yourself the porous silicon. You make it by taking some silicon, and dissolve the
impurities out with acid. Not difficult.
http://www.bath.ac.uk/physics/groups/ppmg/research_psi.html
Etching Technique
Nanoporous silicon is made by passing electric current through silicon that is in contact with a strong acid solution. An acid "front" nibbles away into the silicon and as it
advances it leaves behind a sponge-like structure that is full of linked passages or "pores". The pores are only about ten nanometers across; that is, they are only about twenty
silicon atomic spacings wide (compared to the lattice parameter of the silicon wafer) and so small that not even a 'flu virus could fit in them. The current used controls the
fraction of silicon that dissolves where the front of acid has reached, so by varying the current as the etching progresses we can vary the porosity from place to place. Thus, we
can design and control the exact porosity profile of a sample.
Radioactive liquid gas that explodes like a huge bomb, as the fluorine reacts with the silicon *even faster* than the LOX?
Dirty nuke?
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a n d I m provised C hemistry > Nitrate fertilizer question
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thanx...
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====
k e i n m itleid fur die m ehrheit
see ya !
see ya !
see ya...
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
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thanx...
see ya !
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Methylene Chloride
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D e m olition
- The one with chlorin e and methane gas and UV light, which is a bit cum b e r s o m e for m e
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- Ca talytical hydrochlorination of methanol ( this was all it said ). This sounds somewhat m ore interesting, depending on what
sort of catalyst you'd need.
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for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > extracting iodene
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kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
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Monkeyman
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"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania
<font face="courier new" size=2>2NaI(aq) + 2HCl + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> -> I<sub>2</sub>(s) + 2NaCl(aq) + 2H<sub>2</sub>O</font>
This works fine with common 6% H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> and 30% HCl, and the NaI can be bought at any pool store cheaply.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Am m onia chem istry questions.
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Yesterday, while reading KIBC's HTMD procedure, I started thinking m aybe I could make AP with am m o n i u m sulfate. Then I
r e m e m bered Philou said acetone reacts with amm onia to form 'im ides and their polym ers'. I didnt know wh at an imide was, so
I l o o k e d i n a dictionary (useful, but with lim itations).
I h a v e s o m e q u e s t i o n s . A m ides are sim ilar to im ides, a n d a m ines are sim ilar to imines. What is the difference? I know
a m ides/im ides have acyl grou ps, while am ines/im ines have alkyl groups. Are im ides/im ines just secondary (i think?) am i n e s ?
Also, how are 'coordination com plexes' form ed, like Cu(NH3)4++ and sim ilar?
[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited August 07, 2001).]
Any inorganic chem ists out there - feel free to correct any shocking errors, but bear in m in d I'm just sketching an idea for a
n o n - c h e m i s t b e f o r e y o u s l a u g h t e r m e...
[This message has been edited by Hex (edited August 08, 2001).]
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > H2O2 ways to concentrate 3% ?
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live by the bomb
die by the bomb
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live by the bomb
die by the bomb
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live by the bomb
die by the bomb
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live by the bomb
die by the bomb
PS: i still don't understand why you guys want to purify your hydrogen peroxide, since you will always lose some this way ...
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited August 22, 2001).]
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
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live by the bomb
die by the bomb
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"Chance favours the prepared mind"
So if you boil the 3% H2O2, it will heat to 100*C and the water will start to boil off and it will get more concentrated. H2O2 will
also decompose, but at the start the water will boil off at a greater rate than that at which the H2O2 is decomposing. As the
concentration of water drops, it boils off less rapidly (in terms of grams/minute), and this means that the rate at which the
H2O2 is being conentrated by the water boiling off is reduced due to the fact that the rate of H2O2 decomposition stays the
same, but the rate of water boiling off drops. So after a certain point, your H2O2 will get less concentrated again.
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
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kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
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kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
I saw that program too, the amazing bit is that the torpedo casing rupturing (essentially a pressure bottle explosion) was
picked up by a seismology station in the UK - half way around the world! Makes me wonder if I ever produce any little spikes
on their graphshttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
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BrAiNFeVeR September 8th, 2001, 04:51 AM
It's just that water makes an excellent shockwave carrier for long distances.
I once threw a large cracker of a dam somewhere in France (i was standing on the dam) and threw it as far as i could, and i
swear, the entire thing was shacking!! Me and my nephew totally cracked up, and then left before someone came to make any
trouble...
Please note that this was only a cracker that can be bought in any store, with a rock attached to it !
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
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live by the bomb
die by the bomb
------------------
"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
[This message has been edited by A-BOMB (edited September 17, 2001).]
Anyways I am currently boiling some 3% H2O2 at 105*C. If any of you new members have some comments on this method,
please do.
And boiling the H2O2 definetly affected the reaction time.. the last AP I made, I used 3%, just 10 times the given amount.
And you are right about it making smaller crystals although I hardly think it is worth it because there wasn't much (if any)
visible difference as far as brisance goes however it took 4 days to get a satisfiable amount (Which even then it worried me
because much of it had evaporated leaving dry precipitate on the sides.. I can't believe it didn't detonate on its own because I
was using H2SO4. But as soon as I was ready to remove them I just slowly filled the beaker the rest of the way with water then
filtered it out.)
Anyways what I was saying about reaction time. The last AP I made, I added in the H2SO4 in a slow stream from the pipet and
it barely broke 10*C from the original 4*C and even then it quickly returned to its original temp. This stuff I am making right
now was made by adding the H2SO4 in just a medium-fast drip and when I only had half the acid in, it was steaming! (I wasn't
paying attention to the thermometer, and when it started steaming I immediately quit adding the acid and checked the temp..
it had reached at least 27*C.. it only took about 10 minutes of adding a lot of ice to the ice bath to get the temp back down
below 10*C but I hope this little accident won't effect my product much--if anything I expect it to probably have a bit more of
the dimeric this time.. so I will have to be extra careful). After about 30 minutes of sitting it was down to 5*C and then I slowly
added a mL at a time every 15 minutes to make sure I didn't heat it up again.
Anyway you say that is smells strong. I might be wrong but I thought that H202 had no smell... my 30% hasn't anyway.
<small>[ March 16, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>
i have heard that you can make H2O2 up to 45% with this method, has anyone tried this?
Cya
<small>[ March 25, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</small>
<small>[ May 05, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Sparky ]</small>
Cya
(A) It is very dangerous! H2O2 fumes are very unhealthy to breathe, plus if the vapor concentration is high enough the vapor
can act like an explosive. Finally the oxidation ability of H2O2 vapors could cause fires to start.
(B) As the temperature rises the rate of decomposing increases exponentially, at the same time releasing heat. At some point
especially if there are any contaminates in the H2O2 to aid decomposition there could be a thermal run-away reaction resulting
in an explosion or if milder you will get the H2O2 sprayed all over the place.
(C) Because H2O2 starts to decompose fast when heated you will lose a lot of the H2O2 to breakdown. You thus just turned a
lot of your expensive H2O2 into water just because you decided to boil it.
Can I concentrate the H2O2 myself by vacuum distilling out the water?
Yes, the first thing to realize is that vacuum distilling lowers the boiling point. Thus the evaporator can be operated down at 30
to 40 degrees Celsius and thus you get to remove the water without decomposing the H2O2 from thermal breakdown. I did
find that maintaining a vacuum for a long time to be very difficult but not impossible. Second, any contaminates in the
solution will be left there. This could make the H2O2 very dangerous if the wrong contaminates were there in the first place.
Can I purify the concentrated H2O2 myself by vacuum distilling out the H2O2?
Yes, as before you can lower the boiling point under a vacuum. Notice that H2O2 have a far higher boiling point than water so
you need a harder vacuum which is more work. But it can be done. However, you now have hydrogen peroxide with no
stabilizers in it, this MUST be kept in a very clean container for safety reasons.
Then
This would be a very cheap source of H2O2. Just use a nitrate + sodium hydroxide (drain opener, sold as DRANO or much
cheaper just as sodium hydroxide in supermarkets) then add the metal peroxide to sulfuric...and does it yield around 40%?
BaO2 can be formed simply by heating barium hydroxide or oxide to a few hundred degrees C in open air. The trouble is
getting the barium hydroxide/oxide in the first place. Barium is chemically similar to calcium, and you can obtain BaO from
BaCO3 simply by heating the carbonate in open air (just like with calcium carbonate). But the temperature required is very
high. Or you can react BaCO3 with HCl to obtain BaCl2. The BaCl2 is soluble and could be electrolyzed in a cell with a semi-
permeable membrane to obtain Ba(OH)2. Or you could react the BaCl2 with KOH to obtain KCl and Ba(OH)2. The barium
hydroxide isn't as soluble as KCl, so it shouldn't be too difficult to separate.
Unfortunately, I cannot recall how hot barium hydroxide must be heated before it becomes oxide. It may be that you're back
to the first problem of creating really high temperatures.
Or - the *really* roundabout way - electrolyze a molten barium salt to obtain the metal, burn the metal in air to obtain the
oxide. This is hazardous and indirect but the barium itself could also be fun. This shouldn't be as difficult as obtaining sodium
or potassium since barium is dense enough to sink below its molten salts, protecting it from oxygen.
All my routes start from BaCO3 since it is easily and cheaply obtained as a pottery glaze material.
The formation and decomposition of ozone is dependant of the wavelenght, one wavelenght will create it, the other will
decompose it.
Ozone has a somewhat small decay time, but one can store it for 83h in 20N NaOH solution.
The idea about the oxygen radical could work though. I think it's a bit tricky cause you've got to end up with O2 with a charge
of 2-, meaning oxygen has oxydation state -1 here. Seems pretty tricky to me.
What I was trying to point out is that simply adding another oxygen molecule doesn't always creates a peroxide.
One could easily assume that PbO2 is a peroxide because BaO2 is.
This is false however, because it does not contain a -O-O- bond but
O=Pb=O. See where I'm getting at?
does this stuff decompose or something in long storage or will my batch still be near 50%?
But actually freezing it needs below -50 C for a 50% solution. This is why I do not believe some noobs claiming to concentrate
3% to ten times+ the concentration by freezing out the water.
On the other hand, the near 100% stuff freezes near zero again. The curve looks like a deep valley.
The data book I was looking at said that H2O2 boils at 50 oC and freezes at 0 oC
Evaporating the H2O2 and then condensing it to acquire a higher concentration of H2O2 would allow it to be frozen and then
separated from the water.
30% peroxide freezes at -25C, given you lose some peroxide in the frozen water its quite possible you could reduce volume to
1/10th in a deep freeze.
Harpoon,
H2O2 boils at about 150C, not 50C. You can concentrate by gentle boiling but decomposition tends to prevent you getting to
higher than about 40% at atmospheric pressure. A Eutectic occurs in the solid phase between 50 and 60%, so getting higher
than this is not feasable by freezing, even if the temperatures can be reached. Leaving 40% in a vacuum dessicator over
sulphuric acid can concentrate indefintly 90%+, though loss of H2O2 is probably sizable.
Any well stocked pool supply store sells 27% H2O2 as a "Shock Treatment and Oxidizer". I bought a freakin GALLON of it for
only US$20.00 under the brand name "Baquacil".
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Unless you live under the sea, chances are that many people in your country own pools. Just grab the YellowPages, or an
equivelant and start calling all the pool stores in your area. After the fourth call, I found a supplier only 15 minutes away.
400 ml of 3% runs me $1, and considering that much is lost in heating, I saved shitloads of money. I estimate that
concentrating the same amount would cost me TRIPLE what I paid for Baquacil. A gallon of 27% H2O2 for 23 bucks including
gas? I'll take it!!
EDIT:
I'm aware of the fact that freezing some water solution you can obtain separation (at least partial) of components. Examples
are freezing of sea water which makes ice with less salt then original solution and remaining solution has higher salt
concentration, or methane water clathrate forming as solid residue in cold water under pressure. But the formation of eutectic
mixture mentioned here is interesting to me...let me guess it lay somewhere around 56% H2O2?
FUTI,
Its a very common method in general chemistry, you are unlikley to find any instructions in a modern journal or book
specifically for hydrogen peroxide. Its mainly a mtter of interpreting phase diagrams. More than enough information is
referenced in the thread to give it a try.
The formation of formaldehyde is what grabbed my attention, although there seems to be some complexity using primary
alcohols since they do not do it industrially. Only secondary alcohols are used.
According to the first patent excess air and alcohol vapors are passed through a tube heated to around 400-450 C and quickly
condensed and passed into water. No catalyst, no exotic materials, no special labware. The reaction time is about 30 seconds,
so a long tube is required. With isopropyl alcohol you end up with a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, unreacted alcohol, acetone,
and water. The works are gently distilled under low pressure to get the alcohol, water, and acetone back which are recycled,
and hydrogen peroxide is eventually concentrated.
Supposedly the modern version incorporates between 1-3% hydrogen peroxide to kick start the reaction. Hydrogen peroxide is
the catalyst in the reaction, it is self catalyzing. Adding initial hydrogen peroxide improves the yield.
If I had to design a system to do this I would probably make a long pipe (36") from concrete or mortar by coating a dowel
rod. I would get a bit of duct work or sheet metal and make a simple box in which to cover the pipe with charcoal briquettes
(like a grill). I would affix a Y tube to the beginning of the tube and connect one side to a boiler and the other to an air
compressor. You can use either methyl, ethyl, or isopropyl alcohol diluted with as much water as you want. 75% right off the
shelf is about average. Add a bit of peroxide to the alcohol to help the reaction. A small air compressor blowing at low provides
the air in the other end of the Y fitting. The exit end of the tube can be bubbled directly into ice water.
Yields may vary, the patent says over 80%, but any unreacted alcohol can be recovered and used again. This method sounds
like a good way for making formaldehyde; a double bonus perhaps?
Mayhaps using this process for AP would not even require purification. Just add the acid of your choice to form AP, filter to
remove the crystals, and distill the alcohol from the remaining liquid. I wonder how economical this would be vs. buying
acetone and peroxide separately?
Isn't that a bit dangerous? Formaldehyde and H2O2 react to form dimethylolperoxide, you really would not want to distill this
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mixture, check here for an attempt to isolate it:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2574
I guess you could use this process to form HMTD and AP in situ :p
110 ml of 3% H2O2 where boiled down, vigorous boil, in an aluminum pot to ~10 ml. This was mixed with 15.0 ml acetone,
and 6 ml 31% HCl - 10% extra H2O2. Reaction was successfully preformed at low temperature and then allowed to react at
5*C for 19. hours, capped.
In an attempt - which now seems like a bad idea - to remove any excess H2O2, a small amount of MnO2 was added to the
product still in the reaction vessel, pre neutralization. A small amount of fizzing was observed, which I assume indicates an
excess of H2O2... although I'm suspicious of a reaction with the HCl [also], as the filter water was a reddish-brown color.
It would'nt hurt to get "Shock Treatment and Oxidizer" for less liquid, so I can use smaller containers and use an ice-bath
efficiently.
The equilibrium of the precursors tends to stick to the water soluble ones, and not go all the way to completetion, when you
have more water in the reaction mixture, at least with AP.
I.e at a reagent strength of 1/10, I would expect (though have never tried) that
the time needed for the reaction would increase 100 fold - and not just 10 fold.
Adding to this, of course, is the fact that the equilibrium point will be shifted somewhat.
How much? Once again research I've not carried out.
However, by the addition of a small amount i.e 1ml phosphoric (800gm/liter soln)
to 200ml of 3% peroxide, the loss due to decomposition may be vastly reduced.
This was my standard method until my phosphoric ran out. At this point I went
to get some Ph Down from a hydroponics shop, since my preffered brand of
rust-converter was unavailable.
It was here that I came across 500ml (600gm) of 50% H2O2 for $13. Considering
I'd been previously paying $3.50 for 200ml of 3%, It takes no einstein to work
out that the hydro-shop route is much, much cheaper and easier. I.e 300gm H2O2
for $13, as opposed to 24gm H2O2 for $16
Especially when you consider that they also supply 5L drums of 50% for around
$80. Which is still rather expensive!! (They probably pay around $30 for same)
Can it be used for something useful? I mean is it possible to extract hydrogen peroxide therefrom? Regards
Having used Percarbonates as a source of H2O2 on several occasions I can assure you that Sodium Percarbonate will work as
it releases Hydrogen Peroxide and Sodium Carbonate when dissolved in water, the H2O2 will react with the Acetone and the
Sodium Carbonate will react with the mineral acid to form the respective salt.
Said salt would remain soluble and could simply be washed out with the rest of the liquid remaining after the reaction.
That is, of course, unless I'm missing something here particular to percarbonate.
I didn't check the whole site, so I can't say anything about it's quality but here's a link where a guy boils down 3% hdrogen
peroxide. Look in the "Scientific Crap" section.
http://www.experi-mental.org/
Holy shit...THErAPIST is buddies with the K3wL who owns that site. :rolleyes:
I agree with you, that boiling the H2O2 is the best way to concentrate it.
It's simple and you'll obtain a strength good enough for most applications.
NBK didn't say anything against your method, he has just a litte dejavu when he hears the name "THErAPIST". That's all. :)
Ups.
A little misunderstanding.
You're right, never ever question the master himself. :D
The freezing method just sucked for me. The water would freeze into crystal shards and would become a slurry in the bottle. I
couldn't get much of the high(er) concentration H2O2 before a lot of the crystals melted, nullifying my efforts.
Of course, finding the 27% stuff basically made the effort a waste of time. It etches so fast the solution gets very hot, whereas
before I had to heat the solution to increase the speed of reaction. Fantastic!
Placing the 3% H2O2 in a container for vacuum pumping (some kind of vacuum flask) and place that into a container of warm
water. During the vacuum process, the liquid will cool due to the vaporization of the water, which will lead to a slow evaporation
rate (again, the warm water helps to keep the flask at a neutral temperature and vaporization going).
This should work well, although I can't give you any concentrations to go on.
I was, at one time, interested in the H2O2 mono propellant rocket engines that NASA had experimented with.
The German's V2 rockets (to my knowledge) were fueled with "High test" H202. The H2O2 was pumped into the ignition
chamber, along with a concentrated solution of KMnO4, which immediatley ignited producing steam and oxygen (deisel was
added in later engines to take advantage of the extra oxygen generated). Anyways, just a little trivia - I don't suggest getting
the H2O2 near any KMnO4 is what I'm saying.
Good luck!
I ran across this patent for the process of concentrating H2O2 without the need for freezing, distillation, reagents, or catalysts.
The patent is US7122166.
Basically, the dilute peroxide solution is passed along a water-permeable membrane made of a special material with a
hygroscopic gas such as air on the other side of the membrane to carry the water away. Happily, DuPont invented just such a
material they call Nafion which comes in an assortment of sizes and shapes of sheets and tubing.
I've been looking around for some Nafion tubing to build a little home version similar to the device described in the patent.
Basically it would work like a swamp cooler. Peroxide solution would be circulated from a reservoir through a "radiator"
fashioned from a network of Nafion tubing, then a fan would blow the water away in the form of humidified air.
I'm not sure exactly if pressure or a gas other than air will be needed to produce concentrations high enough to make rocket
fuel, but I hope to make concentrations of at least 85% as mentioned in the patent, with no degradation of the H2O2 from
heat or light.
+++++++++
Patent URLs expire, so post the number and country of orgin instead. NBK
SO failing my previous synthesis I tried concentrating my H2O2. I put 473ml (A 16oz bottle) in a temp controlled pan at
roughtly 80C and let it evaporate for a couple hours until it reached about 60ml. Using the same methods and about 40ml of
this concentrated H2O2 I was able to reach a yield of roughly 8-10g :eek: (I couldn't help but test it before it was completely
dry so I don't know final yield :D) within 12 hrs of precipitation. I will do more tests to see what exactly the yield would be from
a full bottle, but I'm guessing it will max at 12g. That is plenty for me, I don't use hardly any......yet :D .
I will come up with an exact method I use soon, noting temp at which it is evaporated, final volume of H2O2, length of
precipitation, yields of AP, ETC ETC, after I use up what I have now.
Yes, it would work because H2O2 is less volatile than H2O but don't ever pass its solution through the dry CaCl2 or MgSO4!!!
I hope you will dessicate it in a big closed vessel at ambiant temp (20C-35C) within what there will be another vessel
containing the dessicant!Don't forget to add some sulfuric acid in the H2O2 to stabilise it when higher in concentration.
Always remember that H2O2 and metalic ions are not good friends at all; CaCl2 and MgSO4 contains such ions!!!!They can
bring your batch to zero contain oxygen in very little time if brought into contact!!!!
I heated this fast, the flame was on medium and there was quite a bit of fumes/steam. I used this for a synth and got pretty
go results with a yield higher than if i had used the 473 ml 3%.
I think I'm loosing some in the water or something I am not quite sure.
I believe the reason that your solution didnt work panzerkampfwagen is because matches contain absolutley 0% red
phosphorus, rather they contain a mixture of antimony(III) sulfide and potassium chlorate. Phosphorus Pentoxide can be
obtained by heating red Phosphorus from the STRIKING PADS of matches, until it decomposes. Notice that the striking surface
of a match box also contains powdered glass this must be extracted before you begin heating the phosphorus.
The result is such a powerful dehydrating agent that it can convert some mineral acids to their pure simple anhydrides. It has
been used numerous times in the past to concentrate sulfuric acid without decomposing the precious Sulfur Trioxide within.
The desiccating power of P4O10 is strong enough to convert many mineral acids to their anhydrides. Examples: HNO3 is
converted to N2O5; H2SO4 is converted to SO3; HClO4 is converted to Cl2O7.
Hopefully phosphorus pentoxide can do the same for H2O2,and possibly help you guys with your concentration goals. The
Pentoxide can also be used to make very powerful sulfuric acid which can also help concentrate hydrogen peroxide. Thank you,
I hope this helps.
The only problem with the tubing is that when the membrane doesn't have liquid touching it, it becomes very brittle and can
break very easily. I went to feel my tubing and the top part supported and tied with a rubber band just broke. Fortunately,
There was no spill and I was able to retie it.
http://www.serva.de/products/knowledge/011002.shtml
Yes, it can stand hydrogen peroxide up to 30%. Also It says it can handle being frozen so I wonder if freezing 3% in a bag
could be more effective for the freezing out method.
Humm thats interesting. How does steam with a theoretical maximum temperature of 100 deg C could ignite Kerosene (i'm
assuming a typo here on your part) with an autoignition point of 220 deg C? Also since there would be a large amount of water
vapor (aka steam) wouldn't that just put it back out? The V2 rocket propulsion system consisted of water alcohol mixture,
liquid oxygen, and hydrogen peroxide but no mention of Kerosene in any of my information.
So is there any final verdict on the best way to go from say 3% to 30% H202 concentrations, given that you can easily,
discretely, and cheaply obtain the 3%, and you don't possess a vacuum distiller? More importantly how the heck would you
measure it to know when you got more concentration? Should higher concentrations be stored in better containers, say glass
instead of plastic?
Water does not have a "theoretical maximum temperature" as you describe it, except for its decomposition temperature I just
mentioned. Apply enough heat energy to water and its vapor can be heated far beyond what you seem to be confusing as the
boiling point at the standard state. Steam under pressure, as one might expect in a rocket nozzle will allow water to be heated
far above 100 C. It would not even require all that much pressure to reach 220 C. Engineering tables on the pressure-
temperature relationship in boilers can be found via google.
There is no cheap, simple, and easy means of concentrating hydrogen peroxide without some kind of equipment. If there was,
industry would use it. You can concentrate it a bit with staggering losses using minimal equipment, or you can actually get
yourself some real glassware. The investment is well worth it.
As for storing hydrogen peroxide, what do you mean by higher concentrations? How how exactly depends on the material of
choice. I can't recall from memory what materials are used for concentrations above 40%, but I know plastic is used at this,
and all lower, concentrations.
Here is an interesting experiment to try concentrating hydrogen peroxide... Ideally you would want some NAFION tubing, but I
gather it is somewhat expensive (about $150 a meter, but I am not positive on that, I will need to track down a better
supplier), so dialysis tubing is certainly cheaper.
We are going to build a device rather like a condenser. A coil of tubing is immersed in a container, like a bucket, of hydrogen
peroxide. Don't coil the tube tightly, but allow it to be completely wetted by liquid. Have both ends of the tube sticking out of
the liquid, or better still stick a length of plastic or glass into the tubing to keep the ends wetted. Using a low pressure air
pump, like a fish aerator or cheapo tire pump, blow a constant stream of air through the tubing. Air goes in, wet air comes out.
As the water permeates the tubing the interior becomes filled with moist air. The wet air is continually exhausted allowing more
water to permeate through the membrane. The bucket of peroxide steadily becomes more concentrated over time.
I know NAFION will only let water through, but I can't vouch for how well dialysis tubing might work, or how long it will last in
constant contact with highly concentrated peroxide. I also can't specify how high the concentration can get, but NAFION should
be capable of producing 85% peroxide. How many days that takes depends on how much tubing (surface area of membrane)
you use, how much peroxide you have, and what the starting concentration is.
If so, I wouldn't mind blowing $150 on a metre of NAFION to be able to concentrate things like that.
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Also, it might be possible to use dialysis tubing or NAFION to separate NaClO3 or KClO3 as it forms in a chlorate cell, as I
understand that dialysis tubing lets salts through as well as water.
Use a homemade condenser that'll cost you less than $10, and you're all set. :)
NAFION is certainly harder to get and more expensive compared to glassware. According to the one website I found that sold
NAFION tubing, they are the only company licensed to make NAFION tubing. Once the patent protection runs out, and other
companies start cranking out NAFION products, the price of the stuff will plummet. I fully expect the prices to be 1/10th or
even 1/100th of what they are now over the next several years.
One does not need a meter of tubing either. With all the fuel cells out there using NAFION membranes, these are easier to
get. A divided cell with a NAFION membrane in the middle only a few square inches would be far less than any glassware setup
and could continually concentrate hydrogen peroxide. Your yields would be very low per day, but if you have time this would be
an excellent maintenance free concentrator.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > Other peroxides.
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...
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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
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Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)
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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Phil, I think your generalization is too much. Personally, I avoid words like "all", "always", "impossible".
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Your MEKP is most probably solubilized in solvents like Dimethyl phthalate which makes the solution much less explosive/
easily explosible.
When you talk about MEKP, I assume the one you are talking about is the dimolecular (just like the acetone peroxides methyl
ethyl ketone peroxide has dimer).
Dimolecular (C4H8O2)2 is the most common and used commercially in solutions (liquid hardeners). It is a Colorless pleasent-
smelling oil, which can only be distilled in the presence of water in a vacuum. D.(15C) 1.042. unsoluble in water, soluble in
alcohol, ether, benzene. The mixture with water boils under 88mmHg pressure at 48C, and at 130mmHg at 56C. The oil
explodes when heated over 100C or on
contact with concentrated Sulfuric acid.
So if your "MEKP" is pure it will be an oil and explode on contact with conc. H2SO4 (or when heated >100C!!!
------------------
Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net
<fascinating thing>
Take a look at the start date of this topic - 9th April - exactly one year ago!
</fascinating thing>
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<small>[ April 10, 2002, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]</small>
MEKAP
Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone Peroxide
Synonyms: none
I've never found exact characteristics in chemistry books so i can't tell you the exact formula or detonation velocity.
But it has the same power and velocity as Acetone Peroxide.
They are chemically related substances.
Work with 1 gram for a very strong cap.
Preparation:
Chemicals:
Methylethylketone (also known as 2-Butanon)
Hydrogen Peroxide (30%)
Sulfuric acid (30%) or Hydrochloric Acid (30%)
Materials:
Glass beaker or plastic film cannister (PE)
Filter paper
(Heat source)
Manufacture:
3)Add slowly 0.5ml of the HCl or H2SO4 to the mixture. Let sit overnight.
4)If no MEKAP precipitates, heat the mixture in a water bath at 40 Degrees Celsius for 2 hours
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I recently bought 500ml of MEK at the hardware
store for $AU6.50. It was sold as PVC Primer fluid. I hope to attempt making MEKAP soon.
Here is some info on the plant oil that contains a significant amount of it:
American Worm seed oil (Chenopodium ambrosioides), known as Chenopodium oil, is colourless or yellowish, when freshly
distilled, becoming deeper yellow and even brownish by use. It has a peculiar, penetrating, somewhat camphoraceous odour
(the peculiar odour of the plant), and a pungent, bitter taste.
The yield of oil from the crushed fruits is 0.6 to 1.0 per cent.
Its chief constituent is Ascaridole, to the high percentage of 60 to 70 per cent, an unstable substance, allied to cineal, readily
decomposed on heating, with the production of a hydrocarbon. It also contains p-cymene, a-perpinene, probably dihydro-p-
cymene and possibly sylvestrene. Betzine and choline have also been reported.
I don't have The Merck Index right now, but if you have it, it'll be an interesting read... type it up and have a look (and please
post it for the forum members to have a look :) )
I heard that the oil is illegal in many countries because of its instability <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /
>
<small>[ April 12, 2002, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: BleedingLips ]</small>
On oil of chenopodium
================
Essential oil gained from chenopodium abrosioides, formerly used against worm parasites in animals and humans. Today
obsolete because of its side effects. Oil of chenopodium contains mainly ascaridole (60 - 75%), ascaridole glycol, p-cymole
(20 - 30%), alpha-terpinene and limonene.
On ascaridole
==========
Ascaridole is a monoterpene peroxide. Density: 1.01. Melting point: 3 C. Boiling point: 113 - 114 C (@ 2.6 kPa). Racemic.
Solves very well in organic solvents, almost insoluble in water. Since it is an endoperoxide [that means that it is cyclic] it is
unstable and decomposes when heated over 130 C. If it is treated with acids, it decomposes explosively.
Since this is your second post I must praise the effort to find something new. Though, I doubt that this peroxide is as useful
as HMTD, for example:
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Since the yield from the fruit is very low, it should be quite expensive.
</font></li> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">It has a low oxygen balance.</font></li> <font size="2"
face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Yet, if it is a 'powerful' explosive, then they won't sell it OTC, will they?
</font></li><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Since I have plenty of time right now, I could try to make a
peroxide out of 2-undecanone. It will also have a low oxygen balance, nevertheless I'll probably try it out.
In any case, 2-undecanone is an interesting compound since it can be used as a repellent against cats :)
<small>[ April 12, 2002, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]</small>
A_W: Liquid MEKP / ammonium nitrate would probably be sensitive, because the liquid MEKP isn't going to dissolve the
ammonium nitrate to any degree. If you could use a non-polar oxidizer instead of ammonium nitrate, then I would
recommend using that.
Just a general warning: liquid MEKP is VERY painful to get on your skin. I got about a drop of it on my finger; my finger quickly
turned bright red, the liquid MEKP was absorbed into my skin, and my finger began to hurt like shit; more painful than
concentrated sulfuric acid. The interesting part was that the pain and redness subsided after a few minutes, leaving no visible
injury.
Today I went to my lokal paintshop just to have a look. Next to some other chemical bottles, I saw some small plastic bottles,
saying "Reducant" on the label. It also said on the lable: contains MEKP 25-50%! I am not really a "Megalomania" on
chemistry, but I know that a reducant is the opposite of an oxider.
I`m pretty sure that a peroxide is an oxider. Can someone explain why it said reducant?
(PS: Sorry if "reducant" is not the proper english word, but you know what I mean.)
This oxygen can react with the rest of the molecule (reductant, like vulture wrote) since peroxides genereally decompose
exothermically, the heat released initiation oxidation.
Since single atom oxygen is such a strong radical it often takes deeeeeep freezing to stabilize peroxides.
/rickard
I added a few drops of 2-undecanone to an excess of a well-cooled mixture of HCl and H2O2. Here we already get to the main
problem:
The melting point of 2-undecanone is 15 C which was above the temperature of my HCl / H2O2. It solidified immediately.
Thus the "border surface" (the area in which reactions are possible) between H2O2 and the alcanone is very small. This shows
to be some kind of dilemma: Low temperature and almost no peroxide being formed or higher temperature and a higher
possibility of the resulting peroxide detonating spontaneously. I chose the first way because the risk seemed to too high to
me: I expect methyl nonyl ketone peroxide (let's call this one MNKP) to be at least as unstable as AP, yet not as dangerous
(it's not likely to be powerful).
I allowed the resulting solid to dry. After ~3 hours most of the liquid was gone, the solid was still there. When I came back
~12 hours later, there was nothing left excecpt for the paper the crystals were on. It had some dark stains on it which could be
due to a spontaneous combustion, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the compound doesn't seem to be worth both the effort and the
money to give it another try.
EDIT: I should add that most of the unreacted 2-undecanone should have liquified again after 3 hours.
<small>[ April 30, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]</small>
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Am m onium Chloride
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T o m a k e a m m o n i u m c h l o r i d e , b u y a m m onium sulfate fertilizer( it com es about 95% pure) and buy calcium chloride from
tractor tire places where its used to fill tires with concentrated liquid as antifreeze. both are cheap.
M i x t h e m in the balanced ratio to cause am monium chloride and calcium sulfate.
The calcium sulfate is almost zero soluble so it ought precipitate out rapidly, leaving am m onium chloride in solution.
After the reaction is d one you will have a solution of the stuff in water. You can boil it down to precipitate the am m o n i u m
chloride crystals. If you add som e acetone to the boiled down solution you can push out the crystals without having to boil to
dryn ess. Am m onium chloride is insoluble in acetone, which in turn is solu ble with water.
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For the m o s t c o m p r e h e n s i v e a n d i n f o r m ative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
C h e m Lab at http://surf.to/m e g a l o m a n i a
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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them "
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > The m ost powerful explosive??
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Thanks a lot (I know it was a silly question but It was only curiosity) Thanks again
There's VoD and other inform ation on every explosive listed and gives you a reliable and accurate synthesis to boot. I didn't
e v e n h a v e t o u s e m y g o o g l e f i n g e r t o f i n d t h a t o n e h t t p : / / t h e f o r u m .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif
Xinventions is in NO WAY a rival forum, maybe a rival to TO TSE, I only know it exists from p e o p l e p o s t i n g e x a m p l e s h e r e o f
the crap posted there .
There is no alterior m otive behind m e pointing out the flaws on the page linked to. The in formation m ay not be especially
dangerous to a newbie but giving them incorrect inform a t i o n o n t h e b a s i c f u n d e m e n t a l s o f e x p l o s i v e s i s g o i n g o t l e a d t o
c o n f u s i o n a n d p o s s i b l y m istakes in the future.
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[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited June 30, 2001).]
I don't want to get into an arg u e m e n t o v e r s o m ething so silly so I'll say no morehttp://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/
smile.gif
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Small Blasting
Machine from Will
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http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/mrl.htm
Will also says that the drop wire can be shunted for safety (against static, and [I think] ground/stray currents) by slipping a shorted 3.5mm female jack onto the male plug.
I hope to have pics to put on the forum of my new blasting machine. Specs include, self powered @ 14.4V/1.8Ah, 30KF caps, keylock w/ "on" led, test circuit, and chargeing
jack all in a 7"x5"x3" box. Later circuitry will include an A/B selector. "A" being instantaneous and "B" being timed with 12 different times being able to be selected. I'm
planning on using a 555IC to trip a 10A relay, but I just don't know about the 555 for this application. I'm sure its been discussed here so I'll search it later. In the meantime,
anyone else have some proven ideas in their boxes or pics, please upload.
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
Trouble is - I have no charger for it! I have a battery but nothing to charge it! Does anyone have any ideas??
On the subject of improvised blasting machines - I once made one from the flash board of an old camera, but it stopped working so I never persued it any more.
------------------
...AAGH! It Burns!...
[This message has been edited by Donutty (edited October 19, 2001).]
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
------------------
why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > Drying am monium nitrate, dessicator
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Thanks all.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > Re: The list
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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
p.s. are any of you guys on here chemistry majors in college, or have majored in chemistry? i was just wondering if it affords
the opportunity to get your hands on hard-to-come-by chemicals
<BLOCKQUOTE>SNIP ...
The tendencies over the past several years have shown a rather reasonable trend to adopt European legislation in the area of
controlling and monitoring the flow of certain chemicals. This necessity is a logical consequence of the quite real threat that
people would start manufacturing nuclear weapons in their homes. It has been proven that pervitine (a methamphetamine
manufactured locally from ephedrine on a large scale) is increasingly saturating the Western markets and that certain hard
drugs from Western Europe on the other hand penetrate the Czech territory more and more seriously.
From the practices of terrorist groups like IRA (Semtex) and more notably Ohm-shin-reekyo (sarin) it became obvious to most
governments that counteraction was necessary. This gave birth to the philosophy of "precursors", i.e. substances that can be
used in the manufacture of explosives, chemical weapons and drugs. This philosophy has arrived to the Czech Republic as a
result of extended contacts with Interpol, which has even trained numerous Czech chemists working for the former
Czechoslovak criminal police. They have been instructed on the various common procedures of drug manufacture and the
"fingerprint" scheme used to investigate which lab, chemist and process was involved in the production of a particular drug.
In certain developed countries there is already a common practice requiring that chemical dealers sell materials designated as
"precursors" to renowned chemical businesses only and still every transaction is reported to criminal police. The police records
the transaction in their database and as soon as the computer finds it likely that a certain individual has accumulated the
necessary makings for some goody, the policemen will go to see him and check his good health. Individual countries still
differ in their legislation regarding precursors, but many common solvents and, for obvious reasons, acetylation agents are
always listed.
Even final products showing biological activity which lend them the character of drugs are freely associated with the precursor
lists. This is a difficult area to cover by any legislation, since a taxative listing of substances sets any law enforcement agency
well back behind dealers with the so called "designer drugs", who update their range constantly with newly designed products
showing the desired activity while still unknown to the police. Individual countries adopt different attitudes to the problem. In
the Czech Republic this area is covered by the Bill on the International Control Regime. ...
BIG SNIP
... The simplest criterion to tell if a particular substance can be sold freely, is determined by the so called "Lists of additional
codes of the Harmonized customs List of Numeric Nomenclatures". Every chemical can be more or less precisely assigned to a
certain item in the international list used to classificate all trade items upon crossing country boundaries. The additional codes
determine whether the substance can be handled freely or under restrictions. The restricted substances and mixtures thereof
are subject to trade licenses, quotas, registration, inspections and a drastic tightening of the regulations for waste disposal.
The Numeric Nomenclatues are specified in the version of the List of Additional Codes published in the legislation journal
("Sbirka zakonu" in Czech) valid to the date. Fortunately there is professional software available, accredited at the respective
ministries and customs offices, which can assist in classification of a certain product with respect to the cathegories set forth in
the valid legislation or a Regulation related to the Customs Bill, valid to the date.
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The law enforcement recognizes the following cathegories of controlled substances: exceptionally toxic substances, narcotics,
psychotropes, precursors and accessory substances, other poisons and carcinogens, hazardous materials, nuclear material,
radioactive material, pharmaceuticals and hazardous waste. It should be noted that among the items which are subject to
licensing for crossing the border are such "common" substances as sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, potassium permanganate,
benzene, toluene, chloroform, carbon tet, methyl iodide, ether, acetone or acetic anhydride. The controlled substances and
products and admixtures containing them, are registered upon manufacture or import, and during trading or using them
proper evidence must be maintained. An increasing emphasis is being put on waste disposal documentation. It is beneficial
that the GLP/GMP guidelines, the requirements of ISO9000+ and ISO14000+ require documentation of both inputs and
outputs. What an uninvolved observer may consider as bureaucratic fuss, is usually a bare requirement of the law, which sets
forth the allowed manner of manipulation and use of a particular substance and what documentation must be associated with
the manipulation. Chemists, who wish to preserve their former "privilege" to handle certain controversial substances, must
obey these rules too. This is the only way to temporarily suppress certain political pressures (initiated by chemical laymans) to
completely ban certain substances, as mentioned earlier in this post (well, snipped).
The recent developments prove that the law enforcement is aware of the difficulty of defining the terms from this area.
Therefore the government cooperates with experts from universities, the Academy of Sciences and the Czech Chemical Society
for consulting and commenting on future legislation so that it fullfills its purpose and at the same time avoids banning
chemicals per se. ...</BLOCKQUOTE>
So, I am pretty sure that the "recording in the database" thing and centralised checking of the combinations is in effect here.
A list of suspect persons surely exists too and is cross-checked against the precursor list. Over here you can get on the list not
only by purchasing something, but also through suspicious activity on the Internet. (Also please read my piece on this in
\misc\cro3.) So, I am constantly asking myself about every possible "suspicious" combination (like oleum, nitric acid, toluene)
the same question - which substance have I purchased with the provision of personal data? Can I purchase this or that and
showing my ID without it forming a suspicious combination with something I got three years ago? It is slowly driving me
paranoid and I guess the only way to counter this will be writing some SW equivalent to the pigs' one.
Another thing you must watch out for here besides combinations are controlled substances of which the possession alone is a
serious offense. If you, for example, get a substance like potassium dichromate, or sodium azide from a chem supplier by
deception ("I know Mike, he usually orders for our company, you surely know him, now we have a deadline for this experiment
on Monday, could you deliver it to my home address instead?") and if they sell it to you, the police WILL knock on your door.
At least the supplier will want to cover their own ass after they realize what happened. This IS true: A few years ago, one chem
supplier company disappeared after I ordered sodium azide (a big quantity) from them. After a LONG time I got a strange
mail from them saying like "Hold on, we're still processing your order, but we need you to reconfirm it in writing..." I believe
the pigs sent that. I didn't respond and nothing happened. I was real stupid until that time, and needless to say, this
experience scared the shit out of me. Maybe in a few years I will get charged or something. I was lucky, because I didn't get
the stuff, and they will have a hard time trying to prove I wanted to do something illegal with it. But should the police have
been more clever and "sold" it to me in the first place... You must also refrain from publicly saying anything about any such
substance that would link you to it.
This first part won't be of any use to the non-Americans, but there are
probably enough American bees out there to keep it from being a waste of
time. I hope that a lot of people can benefit from the "how to buy" parts
in the second half of this message, no matter what their nationality. On
with the show!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, let's look at what the DOJ means by List I and List II chemicals.
This is in 21USC Sec. 802. That's the US Code, and you can search and read it
yourself at http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html. (http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(33) The term ``listed chemical'' means any list I chemical or any list II
chemical.
(35) The term ``list II chemical'' means a chemical (other than a list I
chemical) specified by regulation of the Attorney General as a chemical that is
used in manufacturing a controlled substance in violation of this subchapter,
and such term includes (until otherwise specified by regulation of the Attorney
General, as considered appropriate by the Attorney General or upon petition to
the Attorney General by any person) the following chemicals:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(back to igor)
- A company should never apply to sell listed chemicals that do not directly
relate to their stated business; they can, but the DEA will look long and hard
before approving it. The fewer listed chemicals you want to sell, the better off
you are. Also, there are more than a few stupid people who apply for permits
just so they can buy ephedrine (or whatever) to divert for personal use. Very,
very, very bad idea. A DEA agent on the West Coast told a friend that this is
not uncommon, and that the DEA will see right through you. It's one of the
things they're looking for when they do their little pre approval interview.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"The reporting of a suspicious order is required by the Controlled Substances
Act and is of primary importance to DEA in limiting the availability of listed
chemicals in the illicit traffic. Each regulated person is most familiar with
its customers and the circumstances surrounding the orders it processes. The
chemical industry must use its best judgment in identifying suspicious orders.
The following are provided in order to assist the industry in identifying
suspicious orders:
1. An individual who desires to pay cash and wants to pick up the chemical(s).
2. An established customer who deviates from previous orders or ordering methods.
3. A new customer or unfamiliar representative of an established customer who
orders listed chemicals.
4. A customer who has difficulty in pronouncing chemical names.
5. A customer who is vague about its firm's address, telephone number, and
reason for desiring a listed chemical.
6. A customer who wants a listed chemical shipped to a post office box or
address other than the usual business address.
7. A customer who prefers to pay by cashier's check, postal money order, etc.
8. A customer who will not furnish references or who is vague about furnishing
references for credit purposes.
9. A customer who desires listed chemicals for reasons at variance with
accepted legitimate industry practice.
10. A customer who is not a member of a trade, professional, or business
association.
11. A customer who furnishes false or suspicious addresses, telephone numbers,
or references.
12. A customer who refuses or is reluctant to establish a credit account or
provide purchase order information.
13. A customer whose communication either by telephone, mail, or other means is
not conducted or prepared in a professional business manner.
14. A customer who requests unusual methods or routes of shipment or who
provides unusual shipping, labeling or packaging instructions.
15. A customer who purchases unusual quantities or combinations of chemicals or
glassware in contrast with customary practice and usage.
16. A customer whose stated use of listed chemicals is incompatible with
destination country's commercial activities or consignee's line of business.
17. A customer with little or no business background information available.
18. A customer using a freight forwarder as ultimate consignee.
19. The use of intermediate consignee(s) whose location or business is
incompatible with the purported end user's nature of business or location.
20. Evasive responses to any questions, or responses that indicate a lack of
basic knowledge of the industry, or inability to supply information on
whether listed chemicals are for domestic use or export.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, a lot of stuff can be suspicious. If you're going to buy stuff
from a distributor then don't be a stupid jerk. Meet these requirements so you
won't screw it up for the rest of the people ordering from them. For example, if
you shiftily ask for large quantities of acetamide, and want to pay cash, then a
smart source will report it. (If they don't, and if they OR you are caught, they
could face a sentence of up to 20 years in prison for what the DOJ perceives as
their recklessness.) So they report it, the DEA comes knocking on your door, and
then they might do an audit of the supplier because he was stupid enough to sell
it to you.
Or say you were smart enough to be professional and cooperative with the
chemical supplier, but the DEA busts up your lab and finds receipts (credit card
statement, purchase order, invoice, whatever) tying you back to that supplier.
Well, guess what? You might have just fucked several unwitting bees who were
smart enough to be inconspicuous to the business owner, but who are still on
file at that business as having purchased potentially suspicious chemicals.
Thanks a lot, dumbass. There will be a long line of angry bees waiting outside
your cell to hit you with a lead pipe once you're inside. And I hope that you
enjoy being brutally raped by psychopaths who are mildly bitter about facing a
lifetime incarceration.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do I think about buying chemicals? The best advice I've found is by POPeye,
and it is archived at Rhodium's site:
http://www.lycaeum.org/~rhodium/chemistry/popeye.zwit.txt (http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/popeye.zwit.txt)
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I am totally, irrationally paranoid about being caught, and I usually proceed
accordingly. Here's the trade-off: provide as few clues as possible to your real
identity, but remain inconspicuous. For what it's worth, I might not have any
experience with the actual manufacture of drugs, but dammit, I have bought so
much stuff (some of it suspicious, and some of it from big time suppliers, too,
not just the companies that sell to individuals) that I have a good bit of
experience pulling off my purchases.
All you have to do is apply some common sense to what you're doing, and know
enough about your reputed subject to fool the average person taking and filling
the orders at a chemical supply company. Know how to pronounce a chemical before
you ask for it. Know correct pronunciations of words like "isomer", "carbonyl",
"claisen adapter" and "ketone." This shit comes up. Seriously.
Be able to spout off your SSN, driver's license number, street address, business
name/phone/address, birth date, etc., immediately upon being asked. And don't
just make them up on the spot. Have them (fake or real, whatever) memorized. If
you're picking up in person, print up some business cards and take them along
with your PO and fake ID.
Other things: when purchasing chemicals, don't let on that you know anything
about the processes related to clandestine manufacture. Pick a legitimate area
of organic/medical chemistry or chemical engineering research -- how about
pesticides, improved delivery of orally administered drugs, solubility
variations with temperature and pressure? Know where you got "your" under-
graduate degree and maybe "your" graduate degree. Know when "you" graduated.
And don't pick a big school, either. Pick a smaller university in another part
of the country, because if you don't, then Murphy's Law says that the person to
whom you are speaking will have attended the same big school that you did, and
will ask something about the campus, faculty or town that you won't be able to
answer. Even better, pick some place that you have visited and with which you
are relatively familiar. If you used to date a guy who went to Podunk State
University in Southern Kansas, then PSU-SK sounds like a great chemistry
department for you.
Did you learn a really believable Australian accent by watching Paul Hogan, a
good Massachusetts accent from old videotapes of JFK, or a great Belfast accent
from your granny? Hmm. That might be useful. But if you're going international,
you'd better know something about where "you" came from, then. Referring to a
Scottish or Irish person as English could cause him to put his fist down your
throat. Koreans are not Chinese. Perth is on the west coast of Australia, Sydney
and Melbourne are on the east. People who live in San Francisco will often call
SF "the city" in conversation. Cambridge and Boston are not the same town.
Orange County is not LA, at least not to people who live in LA. Dallas and Fort
Worth have individual identities; people in Forth Worth DO NOT live in Dallas,
and God help you if you think otherwise. The Netherlands is a country, not a
region. Ukrainians are not Russian. Pakistan and India are not the same country.
Let's say that, God forbid, you are forced into conversation. (This happens a
lot for walk in business, not so much for telephone purchases.) Little things
mean a lot in conversation, especially if someone wants to be suspicious of you.
DO NOT go looking for conversation. Be polite, be friendly, but get the fuck in
and then get the fuck out. This includes both telephone conversations and walk
in. If you are forced into conversation, and the opportunity is presented, take
an opportunity to mention how many non-standard ground glass stoppers you've
accumulated in the stopper drawer at the lab. Bitch about an incompetent co-
worker. Comment about how the inspection guy came around yesterday to check the
fire extinguishers. Talk about the person you met on the ride up the office
elevator that morning. Complain about how you're going to have to pay $2500 to
have your rotovap replaced because one of the lab assistants pushed it off of
the bench. Praise your graduate advisor for her tireless work in developing
delivery mechanisms for antibacterial drugs. Etc. You get the idea.
Developing a convincing and complicated lie is an art form. Practice. Know your
entire fake life's history before you start using it. If you're married in your
fake life, don't refer to your girlfriend, even if you're not at the same place.
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If you played soccer, don't talk about how you hate sports. Be consistent.
- Know what you want. When you're out of something in a lab, you know
what it is, you make a list, and you pick up the telephone and order
it. You don't flip through a catalog going, "and, um, some pentane,
and... let's see, 500g of NaOH, and 50g of LAH... no, make that 250g
of LAH...."
- Spread out your business. If you simply must have all of the stuff to
make a particular drug, and you must have it now, then buy from four
or five different suppliers. This is just as suspicious if someone is
watching you, but the suppliers don't usually communicate with each
other, so they don't know to raise a red flag.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><SMALL>
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 12, 2001).]
Here is the truth you have been waiting for. The nebulous threat of "watched chemicals" has been spooking chemists for
years. No one seems to know for sure what they are or who is watching them. Well (tee hee), I do. Being sick to death about
this whole matter, I marched my ass over to the local science house and demanded to see the manager. I explained that as a
private researcher I was sick of the narcotics agents always coming to my house and bugging me and my family every time I
ordered a watched chemical. I pointed to the little sheet of List I and List II chems above his sales counter and asked to know
where the list of "watched" or "suspicious" chemicals were, because I wanted to avoid their sales in the future. The manager
sympathized with my predicament and said that he did not like the DEA intrusions on his store as well. He explained to me the
DEA routine of checking his records and what he knew that they looked for. But he had no idea what any watched chemical was.
Never had his company been instructed by the DEA regarding anything other than the List I and List II chemicals. I thanked
him and bought some filter paper to show my appreciation. I did four other on-site visits to chem companies in my state.
None knew a damn thing about `watched' chemicals. I contacted out-of-state companies. No dice. I contacted the owners of
seven "rogue" lab stores who would definitely NOT withhold privileged info. They too knew nothing about it. In fact, no one
knows what chemicals are "watched" EXCEPT the DEA. And the DEA wants it this way. Why should they tip their hat to lab stores
or the public and give up their element of surprise? That's how they make busts: by scrutinizing the public and not letting
them know what they are being scrutinized over. Sound criminal? You bet! And it probably is antithematic to the Constitution.
So, as a public service announcement and as a protective defense against unwarranted search, I give you the list of watched
chemicals that you are not supposed know about in the Watched Chemicals List.
Sorry I couldn't put that in a tabular format. It would've taken too many pages. The information in the list was pulled from
both the DEA and the California Department of Justice. Some of the entries are watched because of their potential for mass
poisonings or bomb making. But the bulk of the list is for drugs.
Right now I can see a bunch of you running around in circles screaming because you've realized you've ordered half of the shit
on that list. And I'm at a loss to explain it. No one has busted me for ordering the stuff. No one I know who has ordered
things of this nature has gotten busted on account of them. I leave it up to you to judge how you may approach ordering
these chems. My personal take on all this is that any one, two or possibly three of these chems ordered together would not be
suspicious unless they were ordered in very large amounts or they were known to have specific uses when ordered together.
The best advice I can give you is from a warning notice I found on the "Sales Policy" web page of a very friendly and
forthcoming laboratory supply company:
We do not wish to end up in court as a witness for the prosecution against you. Sorry, but we really don't need the business
that bad. If you're interested in buying items which can be used for making explosives or illicit drugs, please be aware of the
following: the California State Department of Justice and the various Federal agencies regularly review our sales for patterns of
purchases which may lead to an arrest. In California knowingly selling any item which is then used in felony drug or bomb
making is a felony also for the seller. Enough said. Go elsewhere to buy these items.
Finally, it is worth noting that someone, somewhere once said he hoped the government would place every chemical under
suspicion or restriction. I agree because it would negate its own intentions. And let me tell ya - that Watched Chemical List is
huge! It is, in fact, prohibitively huge. And the bigger it gets, the sillier and more useless it becomes. Keep it up guys!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Listed Chemicals
Posted in every lab store, chem distributorship or manufacturing plant is a single, yellow sheet of paper that the DEA has sent
to them. Printed on the paper is the List I and List II Scheduled Chemicals that the DEA wants restricted. The table below is an
exact replica of the most current list as of early 1998. The only difference is that late-breaking word from the DEA has it that
iodine crystals and HCl gas will be added to the List II compounds in the very near future so I have added them to the table
here.
List I Chemicals
Anthranilic Acid
N-Methylpseudoephedrine
Benzaldehyde
Nitroethane
Benzyl Cyanide
Norpseudoephedrine
Ephedrine
Phenylacetic Acid
Ergonovine
Phenylpropanolamine
Ergotamine
Piperidine
Ethylamine
Piperonal
Hydriodic Acid (57%)
Propionic Anhydride
Isosafrole
Pseudoephedrine
Methylamine
Safrole
N-Acetylanthranilic Acid
MD-P2P
N-Methylephedrine
List II Chemicals
Threshold by vol. Threshold by wt.
Acetic Anhydride 250 gallons 1023 kg
Acetone 50 gallons 150 kg
Benzyl Chloride N/A 1 kg
Ethyl Ether 50 gallons 135.8 kg
Methyl Ethyl Ketone 50 gallons 145 kg
Potassium Permanganate N/A 55 kg
Toluene 50 gallons 159 kg
List I Chemicals (a.k.a. Schedule I Chemicals, a.k.a. Precursor Chemicals) are all illegal to own or buy in any quantity without
a DEA or State Permit. List II Chemicals (a.k.a. Schedule II Chemicals, a.k.a. Essential Chemicals) can be purchased legally in
amounts below the limits stated in Table I. But if you want to buy amounts of List II chemicals above the thresholds given in
Table I, then you're gonna need that DEA or state permit.
Most lab stores simply refuse to sell List I and List II chemicals because of the stigma they carry. This includes sales to people
with permits. That is just fine in my book. No one has any business buying List I and List II chemicals, nor does anyone have
any need for the chemicals these days. In fact, I have a greater trust in companies that do this. This is because they are
limiting the potential for abuse by customers, thus freeing themselves to more confidently sell the rest of their chems and
products.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
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Lagen August 12th, 2001, 07:47 PM
If there is any interest, I can post the lists of "watched" and "completely outlawed" chemicals for my country.
List IV (Precursors):
Phenylacetone (1-Phenyl-2-propanone) (103-79-7), N-Acetylanthranilic Acid (2-Acetamidebenzoic Acid) (89-52-1), Isosafrole
(1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene) (120-58-1), 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (4676-39-5), Piperonal (1,3-
Benzodioxol-5-carbaldehyde) (120-57-0), Safrole (4-Allyl-1,2-methylenedioxybenzene) (94-59-7), Ephedrine (Erythro-1-
phenyl-2-methylaminopropane-1-ol) and its Salts (299-42-3, 56006-05-3, 50-98-6, 134-72-5, 81012-98-8),
Pseudoephedrine(INN) and its Salts (90-82-4, 345-78-8, 7460-12-0), Ergomethrine(INN) and its Salts (60-79-7, 74283-21-9,
129-51-1, 129-50-1), Ergotamine(INN) and its Salts (113-15-5, 379-79-1, 74283-21-9), Lysergic Acid and its Salts (82-58-6),
Hemp Seed, Poppy Hay.
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Controlled Substances for Import: Ethanol non-denatured and products thereof, Ammonium Nitrate and aqueous solutions
thereof, Dextrines and other modified staches, Methylester of Rapeseed Oil, Biological Fuel Oil.
What those Lists (I-IV, I named them so) mean: It's quite complicated, I would have to post the whole Bills here. But, if
you're looking at it from the perspective of a private individual, without a chemical business etc., over 18, mentally sane etc.:
You must not own or distribute any List I substance, or any other substance classificated as carcinogenic (there are a few
exceptions, like fuels), mutagenic or toxic for reproduction. Posession of drugs for your own use is not outlawed, although you
do get trouble with it.
What I have not done yet: The Lists II-IV have something to do with some other specific Bills (on drugs and their precursors
etc.) and they probably form a part of the Watched Substances List (I am not sure if I can get a complete version). I will have
a look at them. Possession of explosives in general is not outlawed, but allowed to licensed individuals only.
Australian Inventory of Chemical Substances (AICS), 1996 and subsequent updates from the Commonwealth of Australia
Gazette.
Canadian Domestic Substances list (DSL) and Non-Domestic Substances List (NDSL); data from the Supplement to the Canada
Gazette, Part I, January 26, 1991, and subsequent updates from the Canada Gazette.
European Inventory of Existing Commercial Chemical Substances (EINECS); data from the English, French, German, and
Spanish edition of the Annex to the Official Journal of the European Communities C146A, June 15, 1990 and EINECS
Corrections, March 1997. No Longer Polymers List (NLP), September, 1996.
European List of Notified Chemical Substances (ELINCS); data from the Annex to Official Journal of European Communities
C72, 11 March 2000, and subsequent updates from later issues of the publication.
Japanese Existing and New Chemical Substances List (ENCS); data from Japanese inventory sources with updates as they
become available.
Korean Existing Chemicals List (ECL); data from the Existing Chemicals List, published by the Ministry of the Environment in
1997 and subsequent published supplements.
Philippines Inventory of Chemicals and Chemical Substances (PICCS), September 2000 and subsequent updates.
Swiss Regulated Chemicals Lists: INVENTORY of Notified New Substances in Accordance with the Ordinance on Substances,
September 2000 and the Giftliste 1, June 2000 and subsequent updates.
US Toxic Substances Control Act Chemical Substance Inventory (TSCA); data from the 1985 TSCA Inventory and supplements,
and updates from the US Government Federal Register and NTIS TSCA Inventory Tape.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
and also Pyrotek sell ALOT of chemicals that arnt used in your average pyrotechnics, some chems they sell: hexamine,
nitromethane, hydrogen peroxide, iodine, and a few others. So does anyone think theres a sting operation through them?
Also I want to buy a distil through United Glass Tech, is there anything suspicious in me buying a condenser and some flasks,
as a private hobist?
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for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)
------------------
"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
________________________
http://m ove.to/pyrom a n i a
------------------
"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Urea manufacture
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thanx...
I don't know how to produce Urea but in "Chemistry of Powder & Explosives" there is alot of info on Urea Nitrate, Nitro Urea, etc.
http://www.tlchm.bris.ac.uk/~paulmay/misc/motm/urea/urea.gif
The cheapest source of urea I know is urea fertilizer, I'm getting it for about $0.50/kg. The purity is about 98%, if needed, it can be recrystallized from alcohol. Urea is
produced commercially by several steps, which begin with the direct reaction of ammonia with carbon dioxide in a high pressure, high temperature reactor. This cannot be done
at home.
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 11, 2001).]
There are numerous alternative ways of urea or urea nitrate manufacture from urine. Maybe you will have to do some calculations first (I'm not using these procedures, but I'm
sure they will come handy in a few years if our masters decide to ban everything), the following are not recipes, it's a *hint*:
Urea is usually obtained from urine by treating the concentrated filtered liquid with hot saturated solution of oxalic acid and decomposing the sparingly soluble urea oxalate thus
obtained with powdered chalk; the filtrate is decolorized with animal charcoal and evaporated until the urea crystallises out on cooling. (Note by Lagen: For animal charcoal,
use powder from the black tablets for treating digestive disorders, I don't know the correct English name, but I'm sure its charcoal from animal blood.) Another method consists
in extracting the urea with alcohol from syrup obtained by evaporating the urine, precipitating the urea as the sparingly soluble nitrate by the addition on concentrated nitric
acid, and decomposing the salt by boiling with barium carbonate and alcohol; the urea is obtained by crystallization from the filtrate. Another process for urea nitrate: 60% nitric
acid is added to urine 1:2 in volume, and the resulting mixture is evaporated in a hood or outside and in glass container until it has been reduced to 40% of its original volume.
The mixture is chilled and urea nitrate separates in nice crystals.
Note that fresh urine must be used, fermented urine contains loads of other stuff (like binary amines - smell extremely) so if you decide to scale up your urea production, don't
start by digging a cavern under public restrooms! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif More seriously, avoid the "recipes" that go like "boil down pee to
dryness and voila, you got urea!" Urine contains hundreds of substances, several of them in substantial concentrations (uric acid, hippuric acid, other amines, and mineral salts).
Instead, ethanol is azeotroped with methyl isobutyl ketone (hexone), which is not so immediately damaging like methanol is.
[Useless] On an interesting but sad note, in the Northern Territory in some outback pubs, methylated spirits is actually able to be bought 'pre-chilled'.
It may not be the most practical proceedure to make urea, as urea is basically a precursor.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > Luminous solution...
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(MORON! What the FUCK does this have to do with High EXPLOSIVES?! NOTHING! Moving topic, deleting user.
PS. Hadn't noticed this at first, but you also posted this in the misc section too. DOUBLE POSTING! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif ASSHOLE! NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited July 18, 2001).]
a.)
luminol (5-aminophthalhydrazide)
A fuckin expensive indicator, in Hungary(Eastern-Europe), 5 grams costs about 25 dollars. (Not mistyped! It's in the prize of gold) Btw. I know, how to syntesise it. You can find
it in this book:
Louis F. Fieser: Organic experiments 1956 Raytheon Education Company, Lexington, Massachusetts (chapter 45)
to this synthesis you will need:
1g 3-nitro-ftalic acid
3 cm3 8% hidrazine solution
3 cm3 triethylenglicol
3g NaHSO3.2H2O
the yield will be about .5g This way you can get it far cheeper.
This will really produce light in the dark.
b.)
lucigenin
I don't know much about this one, just this is an other indicator. It produces blue light, by which you can even read for about 10-15 minutes.
c.)
pirogallol (don't know if it is it's correct name)
It produces red light for 5-6 minutes, then the folution will become hot, and sometimes it comes out from the erlenmeyer flask.
I haven't foud the synthesis yet.
d.)
fluorescein (C20H12O5)
red crystals with green iridescence
Made by heating phtalic anhydride with resorcinol. In alkaline solution it shows intense green fluorescence. It is used for determining the route of water supplies, leakages. This
will not light in the dark, but if light falls on it, it has a nice color
(I have made only this one. Yet.)
e.)
an inorganic fluorescens compound
s
CaO
Na2SO4
Na2BO7.10H2O (borax)
CaF
Bi(NO3)3
f.)
white phosphorous
g.)
troboluminescens compound:
ZnS
MnSO4
This one produces light, when you rub it with a glass rod.
h.)
The easiest:
ZnS is said to be luminescens too, when it contains some CuS.
To make this, dissolve ZnSO4 in water, add a few drops of CuSO4 solution, and (NH4)2S, or Na2S.
As you see, if you need a luminous solution, for practical use (instead of flaslight), you have better to buy it.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
LUMINOL SYNTHESIS
In a big test tube (20x150 mm) heat 1g 3-nitro-phtalic acid and 2 cm3 8% hidrazin solution, till the solid material dissolves. Add 3 cm3 triethylen-glycol, and fix the test tube in
a vertical position above the flame. Insert a thermomether, and a glass tube, which is connected to a vacumpump. Boil the solution (110-130 deg. C), and distill the water
down. Let the temperature rise fast (in 3-4 minutes) to 215 deg. C. Take away the flame under the test tube, check the time, and for 2 minutes hold the temperature between
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215 and 220 deg. C with heating occasionally. Take out the suction pipe, and allow the liquid to cool down to 100 deg. C. (sometimes crystals of the product precipitate) Bring
15cm3 dest. water to boil, and add to the solution. Cool it down under the tap, and filter the yellow product.
The dry weight of the product should be about 2,7g, but you needn't dry it.
Put the yellow crystals to the test tube (don't wash it after the first reaction). Add 5 cm3 10% NaOH solution, and 3g NaHSO3.2H2O. Boil the solution for 5 minutes
(somethimes the product precipitates). Add 2 cm3 acetic acid, cool under the tap, and filter out the luminol. Let the liquid stand for the night, next morning an other fraction of
crystals (.1-.2g)should precipitate.
The dry weight of the first precipitated luminol should be about .2-.3g. Dissolve this in 10 cm3 10% NaOH solution, and add 90 cm3 water. This is A solution.
B solution: mix 20 cm3 3% K3[Fe(CN)6] solution with 20 cm3 3% H2O2 and 160 cm3 water.
To 25cm3 A solution add 175 cm3 water, and in a drak place pour this solution with B solution to a big erlenmeyer flask. Shake the flask, and add some lye to increase the
brillance.
fom Louis F. Fieser: Organic Experiments, translated by deezs
now I'm bored with translation.
Are you interested in the other compounds(b,c,d,e,g) too? Perhaps tomorrow I post the other experiments too.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
Lucigenin
In a big erlenmeyer flask to 50 cm3 dest water add 4-5 cm3 NaOH solution, 2-3 cm3 0.05% lucigenin solution, and 3-4 cm3 H2O2. Shake the flask, and add 40-50 cm3
ethanol. The liquid starts to produce turquoise blue light, for about 10-15 minutes. You can even read by this light.
lucigenin: dimethyl-diacridilium-nitrate
If you can draw the structure of this molecule, please send it.
(I think this is an acridine derivative. Acridin looks like antracene, just in the central ring there is a nitrogen, in stead of a carbon.)
pirogallol
In a 200 cm3 erlenmeyer flask add 10 cm3 boiled, and cooled dest water. In this dissolve 1 g pirogallol. To this add 20 cm3 40% K2CO3 solution and 10 cm3 40% HCHO
solution. Shake the flask, and add 30 cm3 30% H2O2. The liquid starts to produce red light, for 1-2 minutes it becomes lighter and lighter. It ends after 4-5 minutes. After the
reaction the liquid becomes hot, and starts to foam. Then add some water, to stop the reaction.
pirogallol is 1,2,3-trihidroxy-benzene
fluorescein
In a dry test tube mix 0.3g phtalic anhydride and 0.4g resorcinol (1,3-dihydroxy-benzene). Add 5 drops of concentrated sulphuric acid. Heat it above a small flame, till you get
dark brown liquid. After it cools down add to it 1 cm3 NH3 solution, and pour it to 1 liter water. It produces yellowish-green fluorescence.
warning! Don't use more sulphuric acid, because it will corrode the paint, formed in the reaction.
0,1 mg fluorescein in 1 l water is still yellowish. It is used for determining the route of water supplies, leakages.
If you need the structure, I can draw it.
inorganic compound
Mix 5g CaO with 4g S, and heat it in a covered porcelain melting pot for 10-15 minutes. To the cooled compound add 0.5g Na2SO4, 0.54g Na2B4O7.10H2O 0.2g CaF2 and 1.5
cm3 Bi(NO3)3 solution. (preparing of the solution: dissolve 0,25g Bi(NO3)3 in 50 cm3 ethanol, and add concentrated hydrochloric acid, till the solution becomes clear) Mix it
well, cover the melting pot and heat over a hot flame for 25-30 minutes. In a dark place light the cooled compound with UV light. If it not produces any light, you need hotter
flame, perhaps a blow torch.
triboluminescens compound
Mix 5g ZnS with 1g MnSO4 or MnCO3, and heat in a melting pot for 25-30 minutes over a very hot flame. (or in a melting pot oven) After it cooled down, suspend in some
water, and filter out the precipitation. Dry it on 120-150 deg C. In a porcelain mortar rub it with a glass stirring rod. It will produce light. Don't know the clour.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
A kilo of fireflies,
A big glass beaker,
A drill,
Some thick wire.
Bend the wire into a T-shape, and fix it into the drill. Put the fireflies into the beaker, put in the wire and turn on the drill! This will make a glowing green paste, which is also a
great salad dressing http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Actually, one (Polynesian?) tribe did/does collect luminescent crustaceans from the sea and crush them to use as blue glowing face-paint for rituals etc. It glowed bright blue for
quite a long time.
That triboluminescent compound sounds interesting. Rubies will flash bright red if you hit them with a hammer, quartz also emits greenish light when banged hard.
That luminol experiment also needs to have the correct pH. I have a recipe somewhere... no, I've looked and I've deleted it. I do remember that ammonium carbonate is
added to raise the pH.
It's easy to grow a culture of Photobacterium Luminescens (sp of last word?). Get a fresh, salt-water fish and suspend it in a jar of cold, boiled sea water so that half the
(dead) fish is submerged. After a week in the fridge, to slow the growth of other bacteria, take it into a dark room. When your eyes have adjusted, you should see lots of little
colonies of glowing bateria. You can grow these in a salt-water medium with added nutrients. If you have it in a sealed, narrow glass tube then the glowing will stop after a
few hours or so since the bacteria aren't getting any oxygen. Invert the tube, and the air bubble at the top will flow throught the culture, causing a burst of green light. A
250mL flask of an active culture is easily enough to read by.
Get a sample of rewd tide plankton, culture that, and expose live clams to the water. Process the clam livers to extract the toxin, and voila!
You're now the proud possesor of saxitoxin, a paralytic nuerotoxin that kills it's victims in less than a minute, with blood pouring out of every orfice. Looks like ebola. And it only
takes a milligram or two.
There's some other toxic critter in the gulf waters that causes skin sores and permanent memory loss. It's airborne too. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited July 29, 2001).]
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
Pthalic acid nitrites very easily, and care must be taken so it doesnt get out of control, the 3 product is the majority one usually. I dont have this information to hand becuase
my chosen synthesis was from napthalene to a-nitronapthalene, to 3-nitropthallic acid. If its a nitro group on the napthalene its the oppasit ring thats broken by oxidation, if its
reduced to amine first, the amine ring is the one that goes. I wasnt able to find a reasonable method for making hydrazine hydrate though, so I never finished the attempt.
The synth Id use from there is the huntress et al method, which currently isnt to hand either though digging up just the reference details I can do tomorrow. I was working on
this some time ago, so the information will be buiried.
30% peroxide and conc hyperchlorite solution when mixed produces volumes of oxygen in the singlet excited state. This forms an excited dimer (A true eximer, unlike so called
eximer lasers) which decays in releasing deep red light. NIR side of visible Red. Ive tried this with 6% hydrogen peroxide and 5% hyperchlorite bleach with about 10min dark
adapted eyes and saw nothing at all, but Ive talked to people that have done it with proper reagents and confirm it does work. The reaction might be a tad violent, Ive read a
safer method is to bubble chlorine into alkaline peroxide solution.
Luminol should be able to be made pretty cheaply with some effort, the oxalate esters are rather more spectacular and should be synthasisable in an advanced home lab, they
also have spectacular street prices. I seem to recall another thread with slightly more information on those.
quartz also flashes orange, red or yellow, some bits don't display it as well as others. I have a small shappire mine on my land and it looks good belting a pick thro hard packed
quartz and gravel under ground.
I've never found a use for this property of quartz but it is pretty :D .
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thanx in advance!
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
My attorney has advised me to exercise my Fifth Amendment rights on the former question.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
About mesuring: I have allready used an analitical scale. (It is sure, that I will have acess to it this winter) It was interesting to watch on the led, how my fingerprint evaporates
from the glass, which I placed onto the scale.
I just wanted to know, if it is important to make the Na-benzoate solution from benzoic acid with neutralizing, or is it good to make from Na-benzoate. I was thinking about, if
the solvation of benzoic acid goes as the solvation of I2 in KI solution, and that few milligrams of benzoic acid has some catalitic effect. Now I don't think my theory was
correct.
The recipe doesn't say anything about white precipitation, but sais: "Evaporate the mixture on a water bath to a small volume while the liquid still remains clear."
So, I'm sure something is not correct.
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > W h a t s h e x a m ine called in Norway?
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Good luck!
Also m ilitary surplus has them as round tablets the size of a 5 cent. its sold in round white tubes thats here in the U.S.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > A quick question on nitronapthalenes:
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So what I'd like to know is: what colour are DNN and TeNN, what are their melting points etc etc. An ything that will help me to
determ ine what I have here.
quick & dirty, too m uch work to write it all down now. Perhaps som e other m ember who has the Urb a n s k i b o o ks c o uld p ost
s o m e m ore info.
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for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)
Here's a pic that could help a bit with nitronaphtalenes (concentrations of HNO 3/H2SO4/H2O & obtained product):
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http://internettrash.com /users/altreal/frame/U1-210.gif
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for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://ka ngaroooo.cjb.net)
e.g. im agine that number 5 is 3cm away from "H2O", 2cm away from "HNO3" and 1cm away from "H2SO4" on the diagram .
Therefore the ratio of H2O :HNO3:H2SO4 is 1/3:1/2:1/1, which m e a n s 1 8 .2% H2O , 27.3% HNO3 and 54.5% H2SO4 in this
e x a m ple. Is that right?
If not, I'm guessing the units of reactant, used to draw the diagrams were either: m oles, grams or m L. Each of which used in a
hypothetical calculation of 20mL H2O / 50m L H2SO 4 / 39mL HNO3, gives differen t ratios of reactant depending on which unit
t h e a m ounts of reactants used were converted into.
If anyone can shed any light on this it would be very useful in designing a new synthesis for TeNN, I'm sure you will agree.
Alternatively you could point o ut if I've m ade a blindingly obviou s m istak e and tell me that the units don't m atter, but I just
can't see tha t they don't at the mom ent.
See GB501034
See US2435314
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > CrO3
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"1. A corrosive, oxidizing acid, H2CrO4, occurring only as salts or in solution. 2. The anhydride of chromic acid, CrO3, a
purplish crystalline material that reacts explosively with reducing agents and is used in chromium plating, as an oxidizing
agent, and to color glass and rubber."
I thought about three possible ways of making it: The method previously suggested by deezs. My failed attempt: I made a
saturated solution of K2Cr2O7 in water, the solution was saturated at 10C so I used 15g dichromate and 200ml water. I didn't
have enough ice, so I placed the beaker in a little water in a pyrex dish and put about 1.5kg NH4NO3 and 1kg urea in it. The
temperature was maintained at about -3C. I added 50ml of very concentrated H2SO4, but, besides a little dichromate, almost
nothing precipitated. Some very tiny red crystals appeared, but that could have been a few mg. I also tried the behavior of the
dichromate to acetone, but it reacted to produce a yellow precipitate (potassium chromate). A method similar to above but with
K2Cr2O7. This is often reported in encyclopaedias and the like to produce CrO3 "crystals". I placed 20ml of concentrated
H2SO4 in a 250ml beaker in a dish of water. I stirred in 5g of finely powdered K2Cr2O7. At first solution turned yellow (like
chromate, but it wasn't), then a very deep orange-brown color. The dichromate just kept dissolving and no purple crystals were
formed. Then I poured in a few cc of conc. K2Cr2O7 soln. acidified with H2SO4, mainly to supply a bit of water (stupid idea! -
but I got away with it). Well just a little more dichromate dissolved and that was it. The soln turned a bit more purple color, so
H2CrO4 is present in solution. Using the above suggested procedure followed by evaporation. I've not yet tried this. Na2SO4
will coprecipitate and I don't know the solubility of CrO3 in sulfuric acid, so it might not work at all. Sorry guys, I'd do some
calculations first before asking, but all my data say nothing about quantitative solubilities in H2SO4!
I also remembered one thing that might be related. About 10 years ago - back in my silver-prospecting days - I kept a small
screw-cap vial of a strong K2Cr2O7 solution in conc. sulfuric acid. I used a drop of this solution to distinguish between pure
silver and its ore argentite. Then for a reason, I decided to quit and gave up the whole silver business idea, and the vial
ended up somewhere with other junk. About 5 years ago I stumbled over it and noticed a strange thing: Just under the rim of
the screw-cap there was a large bunch of dark purple crystals! I noticed that this stuff obviously couldn't be K2Cr2O7, but didn't
think about it too much, and I'm not sure if I disposed of the bottle or kept it. Could that stuff be CrO3? If so, does anybody
have an idea on how this process could be carried out on purpose, and the CrO3 crystallized in pure form (without K2SO4
etc.)? Any info would be very much appreciated!
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 25, 2001).]
". Carefully stir the acid gently and pour a few mls of the dichromate solution slowly into the acid. "
Why should you pour the water (thinner solution) to the acid?
"very concentrated H2SO4"
What does it mean in precentages? If you don't know it exactly, you should check it's density.
I have wrote down the recipe, which I used to make CrO3. I made this stuff in a 50 ml baker.(It wasn't more thanhalf full) I
didn't weighed anything - my book doesn't gives exact weighs or precentages -, but the yield was fare more than a few mgs. I
filtered the fine red powder with glass wool, and put on a watch glass (8cm diameter). It covered it fully. I couldn't ger it off
from the glass wool, and it was wet from sulphuric acid, but it reacted with alcohol nicely.
An idea: try it again, without any cooling. My book writes cooling, but I can't remember, if I used any. I know I should write
notes...
A reliable book of mine says, that only 4.9 g K2Cr2O7 dissolves in 100g water on 0 deg. Later you say, that "A method similar
to above but with K2Cr2O7. "
From this, I think you have mistyped something.
About Na2Cr2O7.2H2O my book says, that 238 g of it dissolves in 100 g water on 0 deg.
Hey! I have just found an other strong oxidizer, serching for CrO3 infos.
Chromil-chloride is a very strong oxidizer, it lights organic compounds. Reacting with water, it formes HCl and chromic acid.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
The suggested method for H2CrO4: This is from a Usenet article, which was written by a scientist, who should know that Acid to
wata is what he oughta. But still... This is the ref he gave: Standard Glassware Cleaning Solutions, The Chemist's Companion,
J.Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-31590-7 (1972).
The H2SO4 I used was 90%. I thought that the concentration didn't matter in this case, as in the first experiment there was
already 4 times as much water because of the K2C2O7 soln (which you correctly stated can be made only rather thin). In the
second experiment, I also watered it down a bit with the addition of the solution, but it didn't change anything. You made me
think about it again, as you said "red powder". The dichromate I put in the acid appears somewhat altered, normally its color
is a brilliant orange, but the powder in the soln is somewhat red. (K2Cr2O7 exhibits some extreme color variations: At liquid
N2 temp. it is yellow, at high temp. it is red. Don't know if pH affects it too.) I thought that maybe some CrO3 was forming on
it, but I don't think it reacted completely. It has still the original grain shape and size. Some dichromate dust floating on the
acid however turned completely purple. I tried some of the red powder+acid on alcohol, the reaction was violent, but it didn't
catch on fire.
K vs. Na salt solubility: My sources give the following numbers (g/100g H2O):
I tried again, as you suggested. 40ml H2O and 6g K2Cr2O7 were placed in a beaker, heated over a gas flame with shaking
until everything dissolved, and allowed to cool. Some dichromate pptd, but this was left there to ensure saturation. 30ml of the
above acid were added, in five portions. And this worked! Immediately a red ppt appeared, and the blanket of the dichromate
xx redissolved. I kept adding the H2SO4 until I thought I had enough ppt, so I don't know if this can be taken any further.
When the latter portions were being added, some white substance was forming in the soln that immediately redissolved (?).
Then I made the following heating setup: Two layers of Al foil were stretched on a frame and placed over a gas burner. I
placed a glass "crucible" in the center of the foil that I made by cracking a No.19 ground glass stopper and using the hollow
top. The vessel was filled half-way with sludge left after decanting the soln from the rxn. At first temp was kept low for the
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acid-water mix to boil off. After that it was raised somewhat, I don't know the exact temps, I didn't insert the probe because of
the H2SO4 vapours. (In the meantime I tried to wash the remaining sludge with acetone. It reacted, a lot of carbon and Cr2O3
was produced.) The CrO3 formed a layer in the upper section of the container. After about 20mins the liquid portion in the
bottom started to turn green (dunno why the Cr gets reduced), so I turned off the heat and allowed to cool. (Btw if a small bit
of the sludge was placed on the hot foil directly, if fumed a lot and turned green/yellow. The resulting mass reacted slowly with
EtOH, turning completely green. When this green substance was heated to a high temp, it formed light brown ashes.) Then I
tested the CrO3 sludge, it was still wet with H2SO4. With EtOH the reaction was violent, a lot of Cr2O3 was produced, and I
think it gave off acetaldehyde too, but no flame. Probably the CrO3 must be dried first and the alcohol dehydrated. With sulfur
the reaction was slow. I will have to try some better drying techniques yet.
Found the lil tube. Now I'm sure that 5 years ago I removed the crystals, but now I had another crop. They are actually a
mixture of purple (not red), white and green xx. (So some CrIII originated over the ages - really not a good way to make
CrO3!) I tried the rxn with EtOH, it was very slow, but ultimately the stuff changed to Cr2O3. Obviously the loads of
coprecipitated stuff make it useless. But this leads me to the idea that maybe, at reduced pressure, this mechanism could be
used to remove the H2SO4 from the above rxn. The lid was PE, and it surely did not react. When I unscrewed it, there was
some solution in the threads, and this could be wiped off. After washing the lid, there was no visible damage, and the mass of
the crystals was comparatively large. The crystals were just attached to the lid where the solution contacted atmosphere, so -
slow evaporation of H2SO4 i guess.
Regarding the rxns with argentite, I cannot tell you what rxns happen there (just guess), I can only tell how it worked for me.
You would place a tiny drop on the surface of the sample. Now if it is pure silver, the drop will imediately turn red (normally the
soln is kinda yellow-orange-brown). Silver dichromate forms. On argentite it would be dark red or brown at first, then gradually
turn to a dark brown, with red ppt on the argentite. Solution very slowly turns green - S reduces the Cr. On silver it NEVER turns
green. You would then wait a few seconds, then spit on it and rub it away with a paper handkerchief. On silver the stain would
be dark and clean, but always the center would be a bit lighter than the dark edge. On argentite the stain would be a uniform
dark colour, of a metallic lustre, with a little bit of some purple/pink stuff that is hard to rub away. If you stil weren't sure, you
could do this: The samples were laid out in the hot sun and left a few minutes to react. After rubbing off the drop, the stain on
silver would have three concentric parts: Dark on the outside, then a stripe of brilliant silver, and a somewhat grayish centre,
where the silver turned spongy. With argentite the rxn would be SLOOOOOWWWWW, again the stain was rather dark and
uniform, with the tiny red bits. With iron, the soln turns green, with tin and lead there is almost no reaction and no color
change. Now don't ask me what is the chemical composition of all those stains http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif I don't know if anyone else uses this method, I kinda made it up myself. There was no fellas doing this, no literature
on the subject and no Internet.
Thanks for the info on chromylchloride. It looks promising, will have a look at it...
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 29, 2001).]
http://www.chem.leeds.ac.uk/delights/texts/
http://www.uni-ulm.de/uni/fak/natwis/sroel/exp/archiv.html
(in german)
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
Oh, and I don't like to see fellow pyros running out of a chemical, while I'm drowning in it. If you wanted to waste some more
time with it, I could transfer some of the blood of my industry http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif But I can
see that you're heading to the university, so I fully understand your point. Just in case, let me know.
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 30, 2001).]
deezs@freemail.hu
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 31, 2001).]
Anyway, back to the topic. Well I wouldn't start this thread if these substances didn't have some good use in pyrotechny.
Personally I think that this combination has some very good qualities. I know that the *big fire* was caused by a lot of fuel. I
rather wanted to point out, that the ignition was instant and reliable. Regarding the ignitor idea ... looks like a great excess of
ethanol! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif With some smaller proportions, you could create a convenient
fire starter, and if you found some reliable means of cracking the ampoule on impact, you could make it into a Molotov
cocktail far superior to the traditional sulfuric acid-chlorate designs. Maybe now it's time for us to experiment with some
different fuels/mixes. Yes, CrO2Cl2 dissolves in benzene, and in carbon tet and chloroform as well.
Other uses I can think of: Ignition mixes for delayed detonators - the kind that has been discussed here, where the acid
corrodes some retaining wire and then a firing pin breaks a separator to mix the components. If we found a suitable reducing
agent that would react explosively with CrO2Cl2/CrO3 then maybe this could be used right next to a primary explosive in a
detonator. It's also possible to build a position sensitive ignition system, again with some mechanical element piercing a
separator. The possibilities are endless.
Deezs, I will mail you with some ideas today, but I must consider the various possibilities so it may take a while.
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 01, 2001).]
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FadeToBlackened August 1st, 2001, 11:39 PM
When CrO3 or CrO2Cl2 react with alcohol, what is released? Are there fumes of hexavalent chromium released, or are they
transformed into some Cr (III) compound?
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
Edit: Deezs, I'm having problems trying to email you. The messages keep coming back with some weird error (not 'No such
user here'). I didn't put any keywords, like 'dichromate' in them, or anything incriminating - I'm not that stupid - just told you
that you should install PGP before we exchange any information. Now there are 3 possibilities:
1) There's some technical problem with your mailbox. You would have probably noticed that.
2) Your mailbox is being watched, perhaps because the address appeared here.
3) Someone doesn't like that idea.
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 03, 2001).]
I had no problem with this mail server yet. I made an other adress there. Try this:
vnprkc@freemail.hu
What is pgp? I don't know anything about it.
I'm not scared from the police or any agencies. (by the way: If an agent reads this, I have a message for him: baszd meg a
kurva pallottseggu nenikedet te fasszopo barom allat! Oh, you can't imagine, how badly can a hungarian swear.
Unfortunatelly, it is impossible to translate it.)
Here, in Hungary, there was a young "chemist", who blowed off his hand with AP. He colud make the judge belive, that he
wanted to make a new kind of plastic in his lab. He was found inocent. There's no proof for I have ever made any explosive.
Yes, I have a ton of chemicals, but that is not enough evidence.
I don't speak russian. There is a russian chemist, Rusl, who started the topic "luminous solution". I haven't seen him on the
forum since than, but we wrote to each other a few times. I will ask him to visit that page, and tell his opinions.
About hidrazine: I don't think it could be so dangerous. Of course I mean just small quantities. In the topic "hydrazine" Mr
Cool talked about the safety precautions, what he would make. I think it shows, that most forum members ar much more
scared about getting cancer, than blowing off a hand. If you avoid ANY contact, there's no problem. Benzene, antracene and
the compounds containing Cr are the bugaboos. But they are just chemicals, like the NaCl, or picric acid. If you know ALL
properties of them, you can avoid all the injuries.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
DHMO is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused
by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of it do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe
tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling,
nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain
death.
Quantities of DHMO have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global,
and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice.
DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the Midwest, and recently California.
Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still
legal. The impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer!
The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its
"importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting
experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds
of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store
large quantities for later use.
Act NOW to prevent further contamination. Find out more about this dangerous chemical. What you don't know can hurt you
and others throughout the world.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
I think it's not a big problem if the pigs read what we write here, because it could hardly be used as evidence. But if we
arrange some transfer/handover/whatever, and get caught, they will find out our identity. I am far from being as disciplined as
you! Of course I have all sensitive stuff aside from my home (the official address), and almost no-one knows where I am
based now. Those who know would not tell. But then I may get followed or something, and even if I manage to destroy all
evidence, I won't be able to work as effectively ever again! Therefore I'm careful when it comes to any links to real places, real
times, real people! This is how it works in my country: 1) The pigs find out about you - for example you post something in a
forum under some identity which gets on the list. 2) They find out who you are - they make the site administrator and ISP
cooperate. 3) They wait... until there's a reason to "visit" you - If someone blows his hand off with HMTD or something, and
this incident happens "near" your home, it's more than sufficient. 4) They search your place, even without you knowing, and if
they find an explosive (even a few grams), or even related nonexplosive items (casings, detonator parts, firing set) you ARE
in trouble. Not because of the incident, but because of what they found. They use the same methods as the communist police
(after all they are the same people) and from what I've heard, will make you tell things you even don't know. The judges are
usually biased against the suspect. And every such case is made into a great hummbug in the papers, which "makes up" for
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their inability (or unwillingness) to fight the BIG crime.
Yeah Rusl got deleted right away, maybe that pissed him off.
Regarding DHMO: I fully agree, I know some people who abuse dihydrogen monoxide for the manufacture and testing of
various very dangerous explosives!
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 05, 2001).]
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
"The peroxy compound, CrO43 NH3 [CAS: 7168-85-3] is obtained by warming an ammonicial ammonium perchromate
solution followed by cooling. Structural data shows that the three NH3 molecules and two peroxide ions are coordinated to
Cr(IV)."
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > hydrazine!!
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i like blowing shit up
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all wize men have unwize fantasies < ^ >
________________________
http://move.to/pyromania
"NIOSH recommends as part of its carcinogen policy that the "most protective" respirators be worn for hydrazine at concentrations above 0.03 ppm."
if you mess w ith this stuff get a moon suit or build a glove box! Don't kill youself making a crappy explosive. by all means mix and distill and filter this liquid but only do so if
you have all the equipment needed to use it safely and the skill to use it safely, if you have accidents with chems occasionally then this isn't the best stuff for you to play with.
That's about it I think. All that and a healthy share of common sense should keep you safe.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
EDTA can be bought from chemical suppliers, and is also found in water purifing additives for aquariums but at less concentration.
/rickard
<small>[ June 14, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>
When applying to different Universitys earlier this year I attended several 'open days'. One of these, included a practical demonstration entitled sound and light. (The title was in
French but I can't remember the French spelling, something like somme et lumier). And was themed upon various explosions... it w as very good.
Anyway, as one of the experiments the bloke poured some liquid NO2 (N2O4) into a round bottom flask. This started to boil instantly releasing clouds of NO2, causing a red
cloud around the w hole bench. At this point he proceeded to add a few drops of hydrazine sulphate... The reaction was quite spectacular, a three foot jet of flame shooting out
of a 10mm flask is quite interesting to see :)
The demonstration lasted about 10 mins and was packed with explosions literally on every few seconds, and the guy talked it through as he went. Unfortunately he had a very
strong Russian accent, and I couldn't understand most of what he said :mad:
</font><blockquote><font size= "1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:< /font>< hr /><font size= "2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Hydrazine w ill, when inhaled,
irritate membranes and respiratory tract. When exposure is strong, temporarly damages to the nerve system may occurre, w ich leads to shaking. Animal testings has show n
that, w hen administered in large doses, cancer and/or liver damages has occurred. < /font>< hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>
Yeah,Its damn right.This extrem ely toxicwarning w as an exaggeration so as to discourage w ould be explosive experimenters to use it for highly powerful and easy to make binary
explosive.Even this Dr. Hurst is joining the fray in discouraging people to experiment with it stated in his yarchive posts.
If its that fatal, I could have died several years ago,as I inhaled fumes from it a lot of times
And if you are aw are about the anhydrous hydrazine about its extreme flammability(that literally it will seekout any open flame nearby ) in order to get combusted;then an
explosive enthusiast must be knowledgeable about its peculiar behavior.In addition he should exercise utmost care in handling and using it.Then the experience of seing this
material perform very interesting explosive behavior w ill be worthwhile plus the bonus that you are still in one piece and exhilarated at the performance. :D :D
The main problem nowadays is its very difficult to obtain the anhydrous materials which gives the best performance in explosive application..
<small>[ June 27, 2002, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>
<small>[ June 28, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Bitter ]< /small>
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I am not aware if this hydrazobenzene material was ever used in binary explosive. But,indeed in the presence of nitrate ion it will form a nitro group with many isomers and an
negative oxygen balance because of the presence of the bulky benzene ring.Therefore the theoretical energetic performance is inferior if compared with that of normal hydrazine
N2H4 which when converted to its nitrate will have excess oxygen(positive OB) and no carbon that is responsible for its excellent performance.
Therefore this is not included in the category for exotic fuels for liquid explosives or propellants.
Its importance is for the manufacure of dyestuffs,photographic chemicals and as reagent analytical chemistry.
BTW, dinitrophenylhydrazine is another compound already containing nitro groups,and cannot be considered in similar category as the basic hydrazine material methioned in the
URL for propellants <img border= "0" title= "" alt= "[Wink]" src="w ink.gif" />
<small>[ June 29, 2002, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > fun with N2
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View Full Version : fun with N2
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
BTW if you drink some you will be able to fly for 5 minutes!
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 27, 2001).]
What are you planning on taking this LN2 home in, or keeping it for that matter? LN2 is very dangerous to store, I very much doubt you have the equipment capable of cooling
it to it's critical temp, which you'd need ot store it. Just bunging it in a thermos flask is going to just give you a pressure bomb.
As for liability, I don't think Hungary is sue happy like the US. Hell, a lot of countries don't have ANY liability laws.
Those are were the really fun things can be done. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Try pouring some LN over a steel bar or chain, then smash it to pieces with a wack of a hammer. Works with locks too, so I've heard. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/wink.gif
Or tie a mouse to a string and dunk it in, and watch it shatter into pieces too.
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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
You could fit a pressure release valve into the cap of the thermos which woulc keep it for longer as it'd be better insulated.
Surely if he can dip his finger in it then he could quickly take a swig and spit it out?
I guess pure oxygen would work better, so you wouldn't get liquified air which would be kinda impure. You could make some nice explosives easily with LOX.
Another idea, what if you put a gas canister in the LN2 like a CO2 powerlet, would it explode because the metal became to brittle/weak to hold the pressure, or would the CO2
become so cold that it's vapour pressure would be so weak it couldn't burst a wet paper bag?
And if you try swigging the stuff, you'll be a prime candidate for the Darwin Award.
If you passed pure, dry, oxygen gas (welding gas) through a coil immersed in dry ice slurry to pre-cool it to -70C, then you'd have a much better chance of liqufying the
oxygen using you're limited nitrogen supply.
Charcoal soaked with liquid oxygen is as powerful as 60% dynamite. Fun stuff.
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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
I ask because I saw a TV program (Clarkson) where a guy poured LOX onto something (can't remeber what) and put a match to it. I remeber thinking "that's going to
explode!" but it just burnt. I wish I could remember what it was but I think it was absorbant, possibly some item of food.
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arkAngel
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > improvised blinding
powder/grenades?
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View Full Version : improvised blinding powder/grenades?
I have :
Sulfur dust
Red Phosphorus
Oh no, not another! I remember that fool we had a w hile back saying he was part of an elite team w ho were going to blow up a govornment building!
Sulphur dust? Black pepper? Wont that just make them sneeze a bit? Are you trying to blind someone 'chemically' or with pyrotechnics, as sadly, I cannot recall "those old ninja
eggshell bombs".
If you want to use a pyro method, just create a 'flashbang' using magnesium.
greetzz from:
ME!
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[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited July 30, 2001).]
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Yeah,what up Detroit
Demolition
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Gun control is being able to hit your target.
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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
------------------
Yeah,what up Detroit
Demolition
must be something screw ed up with your connection settings...or your entering the address wrong...i dunno - noone else has any trouble w ith it
If you've ever had your picture taken with the old fashioned magnesium filament flashbulbs you'll know the effect - blind for about 20 seconds. His gadget was MANY times as
bright and directed against eyes adjusted for night conditions. Bet the guy couldn't see right for 10 minutes or more.
You could probably make a "flashlight" to do something similar, or figure out a w ay to use straight magnesium flashpow der.
Mick,I got it working,I had to adjust the ftp setting in Internet Options.
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited August 18, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited August 18, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited August 18, 2001).]
I don't know if they're still available, but you used to be able to buy these little flash cubes (probably the same as the things c0deblue mentioned, only smaller) for a certain
type of camera. Each cube had 4 tubes that w ould be snapped and give a flash. Rigging up a bunch of these to all go off at the same time would produce a lot of light.
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Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/&.src=bc&.view= l)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
1.5 x 8 = 12.
2 9-volt batterys (thats 18 volts for the people that w ent to public school) would be smaller, A cardboard roll could be lined w ith aluminum plating or foil on one end, a
pushbutton momentary-on sw itch in the side, and the tw o batterys secured in the back.
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why oh w hy didn't I take the blue pill?
BoB, I doubt those little 9v batteries will give anywhere near enough current to give the effect you w ant.
In my car I have a 12V spotlight/highbeam lamp on the end of a 30cm stick. It plugs into the cigarette lighter and I keep it on the passenger seat ready to grab and shine out
the rear w indow. I can illuminate low flying clouds with this thing.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
<small>[ June 08, 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]< /small>
see ya !
What is discussed and dreamt about by the people here is illegal yes, but by defying the law in the w ay we do, w e are not harming other people (unless they happen to enjoy
inspecting packages taped to trees with lit fuses extending out) and is something we all enjoy doing, not something to intentionally harm someone in some way.
The government decided explosives are dangerous and made them illegal because they didnt want irresponsible people hurting themselves, but robbery is a different crime.
see ya !
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic, and Improvised Chemistry > paraformaldehyde
Log in
View Full Version : paraformaldehyde
so, is it possible to make paraformaldehyde (I would like a precise recipe with all steps plz)
see ya !
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
Regarding the paraformaldehyde: Don't confuse true paraformaldehyde (also called trioxymethylene) w ith polyformal or with the sludge in formaldehyde bottles. The first is a
trimer of formaldehyde, and is useful in some HE syntheses w here the other two can't be used because of their poor solubility. The second one is a polymer (n=10-50), it is
prepared commercially and it's the main ingredient in all those paraformaldehyde disinfectant things. The third one is a mixture of the two. In the E-process, any of the three
can be used. But: It has to be bought, and it ends up being more expensive (even more so because of the BF3 costs) than using good old N-nitration process or K-process.
Secondly, it is next to impossible to make at home. Industrially, it is prepared in vacuum from a formaldehyde solution. Boiling down formaldehyde is bullcrap. And even if you'd
try waiting 1-4 years for your 20 grams of paraformaldehyde sludge in your formol bottle, it might not work at all if there are polymerisation inhibitors added.
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 20, 2001).]
see ya !
Same amount of hexamine, double the amount of RDX. You won't actually get tw ice as much RDX, but it'll help.
thanx !
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 21, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited October 25, 2001).]
P.S. - I think someone was asking earlier about the order of adding the hexamine and AN. Well I add all the AN first.
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 25, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited October 25, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 25, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited August 29, 2001).]
thanx...
thanx...
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Chemistry for Amateur Experimenters and Citizen Scientists > General, Organic,
and Improvised Chemistry > Liar Exposed! (formerly P.E 4 And A Car)
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View Full Version : Liar Exposed! (formerly P.E 4 And A Car)
[This message has been edited by Victim (edited August 20, 2001).]
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"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited August 22, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Victim (edited August 20, 2001).]
www.ribbands.co.uk (http://www.ribbands.co.uk) sell an inert training version of P.E.4, perhaps you could extract and use the
plasticiser from it? It's not controlled, but sold only to legitimate users. 4 for 8oz, so maybe a bit expensive.
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"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
------------------
"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
Well done. Well done indeed my friend. And I though *I* lived in the middle of no-where!
1/2 kg of PE4 did that? Damn! Looks, seriously, like a bomb hit it!
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"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
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http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/
Demolition
Certain... "discrepancies" have been brought to my attention concerning the validity of your photographs. You wouldn't happen
to have anything to say about that would you?
(i was thinking, it wouldn't be hard to fake that, from pics on the net, )
now, come to think of it, all you would have to do would be to take pics and paste them over the top of the polaroid scan. look
closely, an the folds etc. in the bottom of the polaroid edges all look funnily the same. also, the car in the bottom pic looks
out of scale. (too thin vertically), as though someone has tried to make it fit ot the edges of the border.
not saying you faked it, but it does raise doubts. even so, your story seems to check out, and i wouldn't hold it against you.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
EventHorizon August 24th, 2001, 12:01 AM
I'm no polaroid expert but that looks like the picture is on the back of the polaroid film as I recall the front side being a
smooth writing surface. The serial #'s look the same too, but that could just be the batch number or something.
More: I looked closer and it appears that some of the pictures edges overlap the seem, there is the identical dark spot at the
lower left corner and one of the pics show a small black part that would be consistent with the black background of the reverse
side of a polaroid. Again, I'm no expert, but Mega might be onto something. Victim, we are anxiously awaiting your rebutle.
[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited August 23, 2001).]
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How much power will you lose if you do not know what they already know?
[This message has been edited by DoH BoY (edited August 23, 2001).]
Your actually being talked about getting banned in the Staff Only section so watch out.
[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited August 24, 2001).]
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http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/
Demolition
If someone has a high quality photo-editing software, they could examine the photos for layers.
I have nothing else to add, only that, as a whole, I feel dampend by some of you, like I said before, if you don't belive me
then thats fine you know, as were all like to be the critic once in a while, I have nothing more to add, so therefore, I shall
leave the debating to you.
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"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 24, 2001).]
Showing us your cookies proves nothing, it's hardly difficult to delete any naughty ones.
You're 37? Your thread with the masterlock (http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000936.html) shows your,
obviously teenage hand. You also state that your father is a builder, if you were 37 your father would be retired.
Tell you what, scan your arm with the tatoo as seen in the det cord photo.
http://profiles.msn.com/zilv3r_viruz@hotmail.com?lc=1033&mid=2260
edit = spelling
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
[This message has been edited by BrAiNFeVeR (edited August 24, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited August 25, 2001).]
You can see movies of you playing with Sodium Chlorate and making fires in the woods,common your not 37 man.
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arkAngel
The disclaimer also details how kewl bomberz are not welcome - oh the irony!
Thankyou for bringing yourself to our attention with this dumb fake pictures crap, you were almost one kewl bomer lamer that
went unnoticed!
Some stuff from his site (may take a while to load as Victim thinks 400Kb pictures are kewl):
http://speculation.topcities.com/pic6.jpg
"Howdy partner, can I sell you some fake PE4???"
http://speculation.topcities.com/letsfly.jpg
"What you can't see is the invisible pole up my arse"
http://speculation.topcities.com/bordemass.jpg
"Hey Dean(Victim), I've had a better idea for that stick of PE4!!!"
http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by DoH BoY (edited August 25, 2001).]
If only 500g of PE-4 was used (as stated in your first post as to how much you bought), why such a vast amount of damage to
your car? It would take several Kg of high explosive to do that much damage.
All questions of tampering aside, there may be some good excuses as to why these photographs were doctored. They
obviously have been, that is a matter of fact. The question now is why, and to what end?
Were they digital snapshots you framed on polaroid film to add effect? That would explain the film being the same in each
pic. A simple answer.
Were these photo's taken days apart? That would explain the different skyline. Although the background terrain is still
different, perhaps it's just a different angle. Another simple answer.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
The fact that you have not provided any simple explanations as to why these pics have been doctored is a cause in itself to
suspect malfeasance on your part.
I'll not ban you for it, you have not violated any rule here, you have even adhered to our "theoretical" theme with your fiction.
You will however have lost the respect of every member, and will be watched very carefully for any future violation.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
Mega sayas "Were they digital snapshots you framed on polaroid film to add effect?"
Victim said before he even posted the pictures "I've just brought some film for my camera (polroid camera) and I thought
they were cheaper than the ones I normally get, and now I know why, there fucking black and white, im extreamy pissed off at
that".
Victims accounts of the incident, written above and beside the pictures clearly states him saying it happened quickly, victims
quote "We legged it before the cops turned up".
And the fact that he made a point of saying this quote "I've bullied my friends into doing it tomorrow". Made me think twice
about this REAL LIFE VICTIM! PS: there are many other things that I could add but cant be fucked.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited August 26, 2001).]
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arkAngel
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
------------------
====
kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
________________________
http://move.to/pyromania
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"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
Even though you told Darkangel that you were an apprentice plumber.
Also, kinda strange that a cop has 17 year old friends and uses his leisure time to smash up the local Supermarket.
Anthony says that your not 37 as your hands on the pictures look like teenage hands and on a magical way those pictures
disappear,,?
Than i posted a message about your site where you are playing with SC/Suger and making fires and also that site is gone,,?
And the explenation whas that you don't have time to upload them because you are to bussy with working,,but those guys on
the pictures
where looking like teenagers not apprentice plumbers that are 37 years old hmmm.
Ah stupid of me! you already told me that on YOUR site you have pictures of ppl but you are not one of the ppl that whe
see,,hmm ah now i see
Mr apprentice PlumberCop(i guess it's new) that's 37 years old whas holding the camera when he's teenage friends where
making fires in the woods and the same story for the store vandalism,but still than if it whas your site without pictures of you
why do you write this text next to a movie:"Here you can hear MY mom screaming DEAN!! after I maked a bang with SC/
Suger"?
And guess what whe can see your teenage arm lighting the SC/Suger.
You are just so full of shit,i hope you understand that the "I don't care what you tell to the other forum members..." whas only
a trick to get you talking.
And about the law enforcement and other things,for a guy that say's he's innocent your giving yourself a hard time to let ppl
believing that.
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arkAngel
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited August 29, 2001).]
So you're 23, in full time employment, have enough money to afford a nice car (probably your parents') yet you live at home
with your parents (who shout "DEEEEEEEEAN!" whenever you do anything naughty).
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
I also have all four images on my Hdd, the one that is the worst that I cut the above pic out of is HERE:
http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/pic1.gif
(Note: you'll have to cut and paste the links into your browser (damn geocities)
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania
Compare
http://entersection1.virtualave.net/pictures2/toothpick.jpg
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arkAngel
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited August 31, 2001).]
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Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net
and no, i'm not making any judgement on whether he's right or wrong because i haven't seen the complete set of pictures
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
does anyone have them?
if they do, contact me(satanic_lord@hotmail.com), and i'll upload them and display them - and i wouldn't mind having a look
to see if there fake or not(majoring in digital media makes it pretty easy to spot a fake)
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited October 19, 2001).]
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Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net
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AAARRRRRHHH! My beautiful eyes! It burns!
The goggles do nothing!AAARRRRRHHH!
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Chemistry for Am ateur Expe rimenters and C itizen Scientists > General, O rganic,
a n d I m provised C hemistry > C hlorobutanol info
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View Full Version : Chlorobutanol info
I didn't find m uch about chlorobutanol, but it's used as a m ild anesthetic.