Town Hall On Terror

5/7/2017 TownHallonTerror
Town Hall on Terror
Kade Crockford of the Massachusetts ACLU and author and MIT professor
Noam Chomsky
The Baffler, January 22, 2015
John Summers: Good evening. As the trial for the bombing of the Boston Marathon begins, Paris
shakes from the assassination of French magazine satirists. A New Era of Terrorism has
commenced, according to the New York Times. Governments, to be sure, emit loose talk of
fundamental values. Patriotic slogans such as Boston Strong paper over global anxiety, as
everyone prepares for further massacres and retributions.
On behalf of The Baffler, Id like to welcome you to this neighborhood forum on the war on terror
and the rule of law. We present Noam Chomsky, author of 911 and many other books on politics
and international affairs, and Kade Crockford, director of the ACLU of Massachusettss Technology
for Liberty Project. We meet tonight in the heart of Inman Squarethe same neighborhood where
the alleged perpetrators of the marathon bombing lived, worked, shopped, worshipped, and went
to school among us.
Take a left out of the Lilypad and walk a few blocks, and over on Norfolk Street youll find the
apartment where the brothers lived. Walk a few more blocks up Norfolk Street and youll find The
Bafflers office. I myself live right around the corner. Even for those of us who are not affected
directly by the violence, this is a hard case not to take personally.
So we wanted a community forum that would run in parallel to the first part of the judicial
proceedings, the most important domestic terrorism trial since Timothy McVeigh was tried for the
Oklahoma City bombings in 1995, because we felt a neartotal absence of discussion on the
ongoing damage done to our legal, civic, and political institutions. As the trial begins, theres a
sense in which we are once again being rather aggressively asked to shelter in place, to stop
asking uncomfortable questions.
Were here tonight, among other reasons, to defy any such expectations, to air alternative views
of the new turn in the war on terror, and to imagine what we can do to prevent the war
technique, in its numerous permutations, from becoming a permanent part of our civic life, from
the neighborhood on up. Kade Crockford will speak first, and after her, Noam Chomsky.
Kade Crockford: Thanks, John. There are definitely a host of troubling questions raised by the
trial itself, in addition to the circumstances surrounding the [accused] brothers [Tamerlan
Tsarnaev and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev] and the case against Dzhokhar.
We can start with the trial. First of all, the trial should not be held in the city of Boston. The
McVeigh case is a good example of a counterpoint. That trial was not held in Oklahoma for very
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good reasons. The judge agreed with the defense that the population in Oklahomain Oklahoma
Citycould not put forth an impartial jury to look at the facts without bias. As weve seen over
the past week or so here in Boston, Judge [George] OTooles decision to reject numerous defense
motions to move this trial out of Boston was the wrong decision. The voir dire process has gone
badly thus far.
Every day, we hear on the radio and read in the press stories about people who are asked
questions by the prosecution and the defense and who answer things like, X person in my family
was directly related to the bombing in Y way, or I work for the company that sponsored the
Boston Marathon, or I lived down the street from [Martin Richard], the little boy who lost his
life that day, and I cry about it every single day. The Department of Justice has already said in
motions to the court that it intends to present an argument that not only the entire city of Boston
was victimized by the attack, but that the entire state of Massachusetts was traumatized and
victimized. Now they turn around and say that its possible to field an impartial jury, while weve
seen that thats going to be difficult if not impossible. So theres the voir dire issue.
Another really important thing that people need to realize about this trial is that its a death
penalty trial, as you do know, but what a lot of people dont know about death penalty trials is
that theyre more likely to convict. Theyre more likely to be composed of people with rightwing
politics, white people, men. Women, people of color, and people with leftwing politics are more
likely to oppose the death penalty, and if you oppose the death penalty you cannot sit on this
trial.
So right off the bat, you have a big problem. U.S. attorney Carmen Ortiz, widely despised both by
the computer privacy and security community as a result of her persecution of Aaron Swartz and
by the Muslim community for her persecution of Tarek Mehanna, a pharmacist from Massachusetts
convicted a few years back of dubious material support for terrorism charges, has plowed
ahead, saying that we should hold the trial in Boston and that we should go for the death penalty,
a decision ultimately made by [U.S. attorney general] Eric Holder.
I find it confounding, not just because it is going to ensure that this trial drags on for decades and
costs taxpayers millions and millions of dollars through appeal after appeal, but also because the
death penalty is illegal in Massachusetts. The voters have said multiple times that we oppose
execution by the government as a form of punishment. In fact, the Boston Globe took a poll, and
they found that Boston residents opposed execution even for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev himself. So this
flouts the will of the public, and because of the propensity for death penalty juries to convict, it
also threatens Dzhokhars Fifth Amendment right to due process.
This is a pattern that the government is engaged in, and not just related to the Tsarnaev trial:
saying something in public, usually through anonymous leaks through reporters, and then saying
something entirely different in court. It has happened with the CIA drone operations[CIA
director] John Brennan goes before cameras and says we are engaged in righteous and precision
strikes against terrorists. And then in court, when the ACLU asks for the drone memos, the CIA
says we can neither confirm nor deny our involvement in those programs.
Well, weve seen something similar happening in this case. The leaks after the marathon bombing
initially said that Tamerlan Tsarnaev was involved in the Waltham murders; a year later, Carmen
Ortizs office is saying in court that they have no evidence of his involvement. [*]
And another strange thing (which I havent seen nearly enough exploration of in the press): just
days after the marathon bombing, in May of 2013, we read in CNN (again through anonymous law
enforcement leaks) that the government has found forensic evidence that the bombs that
exploded at the marathon were built in Tamerlans apartment, just down the road [at 410 Norfolk
Street, near the Lilypad]. They said they found explosives residue all over the placein the
kitchen, in the bathroom.
A year later, in May 2014, Carmen Ortizs office files a brief in court in U.S. v. Tsarnaev that says
the exact opposite. It says we actually didnt find much of any evidence in Tamerlans house, and
we dont know who built the bombs. Well, thats quite an admission, and its not the only time
that the government has said that in court.
The fact remains that the majority, if not all, of the major terrorist attacks that have occurred in
the United States and in Europe since September 11, 2001, have been perpetrated by people who
had been investigated at some point by law enforcement. So the notion that the government
should be recording details of every phone call we make, sucking up vast quantities of our private
communications through surveillance programs conducted by the NSA, as well as other
government agencieswhich they doin order to stop terrorism, is clearly bogus. These
dragnet surveillance programs do not have any more effective impact on stopping terrorism.
Surveillance of this sort, as [Edward] Snowden has saidand as other dissidents have said
repeatedly over time not just in the digital age but since the time of Stasi surveillanceexists for
political, social, and economic control, not for public safety, and I dont think we could have a
clearer example than in the Boston Marathon bombing.
Noam Chomsky: Well, I dont have anything to add about the terrorist acts in Boston and how
theyre being handled, so what Id like to try to do instead is to bring up some more general
reflections and concerns about the issues of terrorism, what they raise, and what we can do
about it.
Let me begin with something that may seem pretty far afield, a film review in the New York Times
a couple days ago. It begins by ridiculing Americas coastal intelligentsia, which has busied
itself with chatter over littleseen art dramas while everyday Americans showed up en masse
for a patriotic profamily picture, which broke attendance records in its opening days. At the end
of this quite laudatory review, the reviewer mentions that there was another film that opened at
the same time, but with quite limited attendance, Selma, which was timed for release with Martin
Luther King Jr. Day.
Well, what was the patriotic, profamily film that so entranced everyday Americans? Its about
the most deadly sniper in American historya guy named Chris Kyle who claimed to have used his
skills to kill several hundred people in Iraq. He wrote memoirs, and in the memoirs he describes
what the experience was like. His first kill, he says, was a woman who walked into a street with a
grenade in her hand as Marines attacked her village. Chris Kyle killed her with a single shot and
explains how he felt about it: I hated the damn savages Id been fighting. . . . Savage, despicable
evil. Thats what we were fighting in Iraq. Thats why a lot of people, myself included, called the
enemies savages. There really was no other way to describe what we encountered there. [**]
The film reviewsI havent seen the film but I read reviewsthey varied. The New Yorker thought
it was great. They kept praising the cinematic valuesnice photographs, and so on. There were
others who found it appalling.
Jeff Stein is a former U.S. intelligence officer, he worked in Vietnam, and he wrote a very critical
review [of Kyles memoir in 2012]. He recalled a visit he made to a club at a Marine base, a
clubhouse for snipers. To quote him: The barroom walls featured whiteonblack Nazi SS insignia
and other Wehrmacht photos and regalia. The Marine shooters clearly identified . . . with the
marksmen of the worlds most infamous killing machine, rather than with regular troops.
Well, going back to Chris Kyle, he regarded his first kill as a terrorist, this woman who walked into
the street with the grenade when the Marines were attacking her village, but we cant really
attribute that to the mentality of a psychopathic killer, because were all tarred with the same
brush, at least insofar as we tolerate or keep silent about official policy.
So take, for example, the case of Omar Khadr. Omar Khadr is the first case that was brought to
trialwhats called a triala military trial at Guantanamo. First case under Obama. He was a
Guantanamo prisoner. He was apprehended when he was a fifteenyearold child. He was in a
residential complex that was attacked by special ops. They shot him, wounded him badly. Hes
blinded; they didnt finish him. They had a discussion about whether to finish him off but they
decided to send him off to [Afghanistans] Bagram airbase, which is not inspected by anyone, its
offlimits, but from the reports of prisoners, its the worst of the CIA torture chambers,
apparently much worse even than Guantanamo, no inspection. He was there for a couple of
[months], and then he was sent off to Guantanamo. Altogether he spent eight years in detention,
torture, and so on. After eight years, he was granted a trial, a military trial. His lawyers were told
that he had two options: one was to plead guilty of the charge. The charge was like the woman in
the village. Hes alleged to have thrown a grenade when [American] forces attacked his
residential complex. He could plead guilty, they said, in which case, he would have eight more
years of imprisonment, or he could plead innocent, in which case he would be in there forever. So
his lawyers advised him to plead guilty, which he did. Hes a Canadian citizen, and at that point,
Canada finally intervened and said they would agree to take this deadly terrorist, the fifteen
yearold kid, back to Canada to serve the rest of his sentence there. So thats what we call a
terrorist, just like Chris Kyle called the woman in the village a terrorist.
This mentality helps explain why its so easy to ignore what is clearly the most extreme terrorist
campaign of modern history, if not ever: Obamas global assassination campaign, a campaign
which officially is aimed at murdering people who are suspected of maybe someday planning to
harm us. If thats what theyre suspected of doing in the morning sessions with Brennan and so on,
then we blow em away. And Id really advise you to read some of the transcripts of the drone
operators. Theyre hairraisingthe guys who are sitting in front of computers in Las Vegas or
somewhere. I cant repeat it. Obama, you may recall, when he won the Nobel Prize, said, Make
no mistake, evil does exist in the world. Hes right, and he knows exactly where to find it.
There are lots of other examples that are quite pertinent today. In the context of whats called
renormalizing our relations with Cuba, which means relaxing our relentless attack on Cuba for
half a century, one thing thats ignored is a massive terrorist campaign that John F. Kennedy
launched against Cuba. It almost brought the world to a terminal nuclear warthe Cuban missile
crisisand after that it was immediately relaunched. This is ignored and dismissed. You find
almost no reference to it, except for some witticisms about the silly CIA plots to try to poison
[Fidel] Castro or something like that, which did take place, but thats the least of it. And the same
is true of numerous other atrocities by our side.
Right after the latest famous terrorist atrocity, Charlie Hebdo, the leading head of the Israeli
labor party, Isaac Herzog, was quoted as saying, Terrorism is terrorism. There are no two ways
about it. Thats quite wrong. There are two ways about it, and we know about it very well. We
look quite differently at the retail terrorism thats done by them against us, as compared with the
wholesale terrorism that we carry out against them, which doesnt count. Incidentally, its hardly
a new observation. George Orwell defined what he called the nationalist: The nationalist not
only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable
capacity for not even hearing about them. Orwell didnt go far enough. He also haswe also
havea remarkable capacity for denying them or even lauding them, case after case, and this
usual pattern was followed after the latest atrocity in Paris.
The crime was vividly reported by the veteran Europe correspondent of the New York Times,
Steven Erlanger. He described the aftermath as a day of sirens, helicopters in the air, frantic
news bulletins; of police cordons and anxious crowds; of young children led away from schools to
safety. It was a day, like the previous two, of blood and horror in and around Paris.
And Erlanger also quoted surviving journalists, who said, Everything crashed. There was no way
out. There was smoke everywhere. It was terrible. People were screaming, it was like a
nightmare and There was a huge detonation and everything went dark. Erlanger comments,
The scene was an increasingly familiar one of smashed glass, broken walls, twisted timbers,
scorched paint, and emotional devastation.
As some of you may recognize, Im cheating. That [last part] was not his report after the Paris
Charlie Hebdo bombing. Rather, this was April 23, 1999, and it didnt make it to the front page. It
was buried on an inside pageit wasnt terribly important. It was the U.S. missile attack on
Serbian state television headquarters, which knocked the television station off the air. It killed
sixteen journalists, several more than Charlie Hebdo.
Erlanger reports that American officials defended the attack as an effort to undermine the
government that the U.S. was attacking, and therefore the television station was a legitimate
target. Richard Holbrooke, a distinguished diplomathe was then the envoy to Yugoslavia
described the successful attack as an enormously important, and I think, positive development,
echoed by many others. There was an internationalstill iscriminal tribunal for Yugoslavia. They
were asked by some Canadian lawyers to look into the NATO attack, and they concluded that it
was not a crime, but they did say that civilian casualties were unfortunately high, but they do
not appear to be clearly disproportionate. Thats in contrast to Charlie Hebdo, where obviously
they were very much proportionateI dont know proportionate to what, but thats the quote.
Lets go back to Chris Kyle. Some of his exploits were in Fallujah during the Marine attack on
Fallujah in November 2004, one of the worst war crimes of the invasion itselfthe worst war
crime of the millennium. Here it is regarded as an example of marvelous heroism of our soldiers in
liberating Iraq.
If you go back to the reporting of the Fallujah attack, its extremely interesting. I happened to be
in New York when it took place, I had some talks, I stopped all the talks and each day just talked
about the front page of the New York Times. The first day of the attack, the front page had a big
picture of a hospital. The Marines had attacked a hospital, which is, of course, a war crime. The
photograph showed that they had thrown the patients out of their beds and onto the floor and
tied their hands behind their backs. Theyd done the same with doctors. There were some
questions about it. Reporters asked, Why attack the hospital? and they were told that the
hospital was a legitimate target. The reason was that it was producing propaganda for the rebels,
namely casualty figures. So therefore it was entirely legitimate to destroy it, to prevent this
propaganda agency from continuing to spew forth its violent materials.
Well, these questions and these considerations directly inform the question of what we can do
about terrorism. Its serious; its a serious problem. What can we do about it? Well, one easy
suggestion comes to mind at once: we can stop participating in it. We can stop carrying out large
scale terrorist atrocities. That would sharply reduce the amount of terrorism in the world more
than anything else I can think of, and incidentally, by doing so, we would also reduce that small
component of terrorism that makes its way into living memorynamely, what they do to us. Its
well known that the drone attacks are a very effective terroristgenerating mechanism. Thats
been demonstrated over and over. And, in fact, if you take a look at the reports, the extensive
discussions in the Charlie Hebdo case, theyve made it very clear that what incited them to
jihadism were things like Abu Ghraib and the U.S. attack on Iraq and other events of humiliation
of Muslims, and violence against them, not to speak of the conditions in the suburbs of Paris,
where theyre subjected to contempt and harsh repression while they try to survive.
If you go to the U.S. Senate reports on torture, they are quite interesting to read. They dealt with
a single question: Did it work? The question is, can you achieve results by torturing people? And
they concluded that you couldnt achieve results, so therefore the liberal commentary on torture
was that it wasnt worth it. Thats the limit of the official discussion.
But theres pretty good evidence that thats irrelevant, because the evidence is pretty strong that
getting results was not the purpose of the torture. The CheneyRumsfeld torture machine was
initially designed for quite a different purpose, pretty explicitly. The purpose was to try to elicit
some information, true or false, didnt mattersome information that would tie Saddam Hussein
to Al Qaeda, which is a crazy idea, but thats what they needed in order to justify the attack on
Iraq.
That was the initial purpose of the torture, but it actually gets worse. Im quoting from a very
welldocumented study, a Seton Hall Law report that just came out, on what the government
called the Battle Lab. They were seeking to obtain information on the most effective ways to
torture a human physically, information on the most damaging ways to break a man
psychologically, and insight as to just how far the human body could be pushed in pain and terror
before organ failure or death. Thats the Battle Lab. And that was a large component of the
torture that we talk about at Guantanamo. Other places are worse.
Crockford: A few things came to mind while I was listening to you talk, Noam. One is that I didnt
get into the question of whether or notif Tamerlan Tsarnaev did kill those three people in
Walthamthe marathon bombings would have happened had he been apprehended before April
2013. Its an important question, because it gets to an issue that affects the rest of us, as the
forum here advertises. As Noam has identified, dragnet surveillance clearly doesnt protect public
safety. There is something that protects public safety: individualized suspicion of wrongdoing.
So, if its actually true that the government had evidence way back when in 2011 that Tamerlan
Tsarnaev killed those three people [in Waltham], as they leaked to the press that they did after
the marathon bombings, and if Tamerlan had been investigated for that specific crime, given that
there was specific evidence of wrongdoing against him, it would have prevented the marathon
bombings, because he would have been in prison, having been convicted of killing three people.
Its a really perfect, very condensed, and locally relevant example of why individualized suspicion
is actually a much better public safety policy than dragnet surveillance.
Another thing that is so interesting about the Paris attacks is that in the wake of the shootings, Al
Qaeda took responsibility for at least training some of the people who were involved, if not for
financing the operation. We dont know if its true or not, but they took responsibility. They told
Jeremy Scahill of The Intercept that they were responsible.
They also said something really interesting. They said, Im paraphrasing, why is it okay for you to
kill our propagandists, and we cant kill yours?[***] Now, youll recall that the United States
government announced to the world that it intended to kill Anwar alAwlaki, a U.S. citizen, with a
drone, before they did it. The ACLU, working with alAwlakis father, sued, and said, hold on, you
cant kill a U.S. citizen without due process. This is absurd. All those lawsuits failed, and he was
killed eventually. The U.S. government killed him with a drone. A U.S. citizen. They alleged that
he was operational. Theres no evidence of this at all. He was a propagandist. Theres plenty of
evidence that he was a propagandist. They hated him because he spoke in English, and he spoke
very eloquently denouncing the United States government. They murdered him. They murdered
Samir Khan, who was another U.S. citizen and who edited the magazine Inspire, Al Qaedas
Englishlanguage propaganda outlet. Its a question that is uncomfortable, I think, for the United
States government and for the West more generally. Why is it okay to kill their propagandists and
its not okay to kill ours? Of course, I dont agree with killing any propagandists.
Think of the actual public safety threat that terrorism poses. There was a study done a few years
back that showed that youre more likely to be killed by your furniture in the United States than
by a terrorist. Your television is more likely to fall on your head and kill you than you are likely to
be killed by someone who has political motives. Just consider that every time you hear the FBI and
the NSAeven local police nowsay that they need some new power or new technology to invade
your rights to protect you. Are they going to protect you from your television? Thats the question
you should be asking.
Chomsky: Routinely, the United States goes after what it calls propaganda agencies and destroys
them. I happened to be in Islamabad right at the time when U.S. forces invaded Afghanistan, and
of course, all the journalists in the world flocked to Islamabad, because that was the way to get
into Afghanistan. If youve ever been in a place where a lot of journalists flock together, youll
know how it works. Theres a couple of hotels, and they hang around the hotel bars, and they
have fun and have drinks and talk to each other and so on. And the big joke among the journalists
in the Islamabad hotel bar was about the U.S. bombing of the Al Jazeera television and radio
outlet in Kabul. It had been attacked and destroyed by U.S. missiles. And the official storywhich,
incidentally, all the journalists reportedwas that it was an accident, that they were aiming at
something else. Everyone in the bar was laughing about how ridiculous this is. Of course they
targeted the Al Jazeera office and destroyed it, but its not the kind of thing you report. Thats
routine. Youre quite right.
Crockford: And the U.S. killed Al Jazeera journalists in Iraq as well.
Chomsky: Exactly.
Summers: Okay, were going to take a couple of questions.
Audience member: The Muslim population of France is about 7.5 percent, but something like 70
percent of all prison inmates in France are Muslim, mostly from the Middle East or North African
nations. You sort of see the same trend here in United States prisonswith mostly people of color,
mostly black people. So what are the implications, if we continue doing this? Prisons are the
hotbed for whatever they term domestic terrorism in France and radicalization. What are the
implications for the United States, which is disproportionately imprisoning people of color and
immigrants?
Chomsky: Well, I think the implications are pretty clear. Its pretty much like defense against
terrorism or surveillance. If the purpose of the socalled criminal justice system was to protect
people, prevent crime, and so on, you wouldnt have these results. So that tells you the purpose is
something else. Whats the purpose? Just look at the results. Go to the banlieues, the suburbs of
Paris, where its mostly North Africans, and the conditions are pretty awful. Ive seen worse
poverty, but theyre pretty bad. But the worst thing, the thing that people complain about, is the
utter contempt that is felt toward them by those rich guys in Paris an hour away, and the way
theyre treated if they dare to get into Paris. You have to live with this constant assault on your
dignity and your personal rights. Theres plenty of violence and repression, too. Unemployment,
no hope, imprisonmentwell, out of that comes crime, what we call crime. But it has roots.
Same in the United States. The highly disproportionate number of black men in prison is not
because theyre genetically different. Theres a history of four hundred years since the first slaves
came, which has a very strong residue. The current explosion in imprisonment since Ronald
Reagan is because of a very clearly racist drug war, designed on racist grounds from police action
all the way through up to sentencing and postrelease treatment. As a result, prisons are full of
blacks.
It happens to be a repetition of what happened after the Civil War. There were ten years,
roughly, during which blacks had a moderate possible access to being part of the world. After
that, there was a NorthSouth compact that essentially told the slave states they could do
whatever they like. So what they did was criminalize black life. Pretty soon, the black male
population was back in jail, a large part of a labor force for the Industrial Revolution of the
nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Now were doing it again. Its been going on for four
hundred years now.
Audience: Kade, I noticed you tweeted something earlier this morning about how the judge
[presiding over the Tsarnaev trial, George OToole,] said that the presumption of innocence is just
kind of a bon mot and not really to be taken seriously.
Crockford: A term of art, is what he said.
Audience: Yeah, term of art. Do you think its possible to compose an impartial jury in
Massachusetts, especially given that if you admit in the jury selection process that you would ever
doubt the word of a police officer, then they just kind of reject you off the bat? Do you think
theres any hope for the jury at all?
Crockford: Well, yeah, the second question points to a larger problem in the criminal punishment
system. Youre right. If you say that you dont like cops or that you distrust cops, then you will
never serve on any jury in this country. But certainly, I dont think an impartial jury will be fielded
in this case. Even if the jury is impartial by OTooles standards or even by the standards of the
defense, I dont think that its possible for there to be an impartial jury, given that this is a death
penalty case. As I said before, you cannot serve on the jury unless you support execution as a
political matter.
Audience: In the discussion today, I think weve highlighted that theres deceit on the part of the
government against the American people. What can we do now? Where do you see that we can go
to take a step back and kind of awaken the people who are passively allowing this to continue?
Chomsky: Well, think of that film that I mentioned that not enough people are going to see,
Selma. What is it about? Its about one of the later steps in a creation of a huge, mass popular
movement that compelled a very reluctant government to pass some limited rights that should
have been available centuries earlierbut they did pass them. If you had asked in 1960, what can
you do about these things, the answer would have been nothing. But a couple of people did try to
do things. A couple of black students sat in at a lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina.
Immediately they were arrested, of course. That couldve ended it, except that a couple more
came back the next day. Pretty soon you had SNCC formed.
The Freedom Riders going through the South and facing extreme violence was far worse than
anything we can think of today in the country. Killing, murder, all kinds of attacks, but they kept
coming. And the greatest courage was from the black rural people who were willing to dare to get
to register to vote. Finally, youve got things like Selma, which was brutal and vicious, but did get
national attention enough so that it was possible to create largescale public pressure that led
Congress and the president to put through some legislative measures that did improve things.
Things are much better than they were in many respects. Right now, surveillance is really awful
stuff, undoubtedly, but compare it to what was going on in the 1960s and early 70s, COINTELPRO.
Nobody talks about that very much. But that was a program run by the national political police,
the FBI, under four administrations. It started under [Dwight] Eisenhower, took off under [John F.]
Kennedy and [Lyndon B.] Johnson, continued into [Richard] Nixon. This was a program that
started off, as always, with the Communist Party but then expanded to just about everything; the
womens movement, the New Left, the black movements were the main targets. And it wasnt
just surveillance; it went all the way up to assassinationGestapostyle political assassination.
Police breaking into the apartment of a black organizer, Fred Hampton, murdering him and
another organizer. Thats direct political assassination. It barely elicited any interest or
attention, but it was severe, and there was plenty of it. It was finally terminated, and compared
with that, were pretty well off. Its not to say that its good now, but its been worse before.
Audience: Im reminded of the death of Robert Kennedy at the hands of Sirhan Sirhan, a
Palestinian, and how little interrogation was done at the time of his motives, which, by his own
candid admission, had to do with [Kennedys campaign promise to] deploy fifty bombers to shore
up the Israel Defense Forces. I think of the note that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev composed on the side of
the boat when he was awaiting capture and bleeding; he wrote something to the effect of, you
are facing men who look down the barrel of a gun and who see heaven, and how can you compete
with that?[****] I wonder if someday someone will anthologize all these statements of terrorists,
whose methods we dont condone, and say, jeez, they were being pretty emphatic and clear for
fifty years at least. I wonder how you account for our radical, ahistorical obtuseness in this half
century long war? I hear myself sounding very unpatriotic, but how on earth do we forgive
ourselves for not internalizing a rather simple message?
Chomsky: How do we forgive ourselves? Weve got a lot to forgive ourselves for. Take the fact
that were a wealthy privileged people, as all of us here are, I suppose. Where did that all come
from? Well, a large part of the wealth of the society, not just the United States, but also England
and the Continent, came from slave labor camps, vicious slave labor camps of a kind that
wouldve impressed the Nazis. Cotton was much more important than oil in the nineteenth
century. It was the basis for the development of the modern economy. Manufacturing, finance,
merchants, commodities, tradeall developed out of the cotton production. Where did cotton
production come from? Slave labor camps. Vicious, murderous slave labor camps, which were very
efficient, incidentally, where productivity increased faster than it did in industry, and where
there were no technological innovationsjust the bullwhip and the pistol and driving people
harder and harder so they could produce more and more cotton. Thats why we share in wealth
and privilege, and not just us.
Is that something to apologize for? Well, yeah, we do apologize for it by throwing them in jail and
by claiming that theyre genetically inferior, thats why they do these bad things. And this has
been going on, as I said, for four hundred years in one way or another.
Theres also the small matter that was reported in the New York Times this morning,
interestingly. There was an article on Junpero Serra, whos being considered for sainthood. He
led the missions in California, which brought civilization to the Indians by exterminating them and
by Christianizing them. So hes a saint or almost a saint, soon will be. But to the credit of the
reporter, [Carol Pogash], it did quote Indian activists who said, look, theres another side to this:
extermination, destruction of our culture, stealing of our lands, and so on.
Well, that didnt happen just in California. Right here where we are, the same thing happened a
little earlier. Is that something to apologize for, to think about? It is, and there are plenty of other
things.
Audience: Thank you both. Id like to hear more about the case of the individual who was killed
by the FBI in Florida, [Ibragim Todashev], if theres a little more detail you could share about
that. What actually happened during the interrogation?
Crockford: Wouldnt we like to know. I think part of the problem is that theres been
unprecedented secrecy around the Waltham murder investigation and what happened in Florida.
The Florida state attorney, Jeff Ashton, I believe his name is, published a report clearing FBI
agent Aaron McFarlane of wrongdoing in shooting Todashev. He was shot seven times, including
three times in the back.
What we know, basically, is that two Massachusetts state troopersone who was assigned to the
violent fugitive task force, basically a fugitive hunter, and one who was a detective assigned to
the murder investigation in Walthamas well as this FBI agent, Aaron McFarlane, went down to
Orlando in a mad rush to interview Todashev one last time (theyd spoken with him before)
because they feared he was about to leave the country.
That is, on its face, a hilarious statement, because if anybody can stop you from leaving the
country, its the FBI. Especially if this guy was connected in any way to Tamerlan Tsarnaev, they
would have had no problem stopping him from leaving the country. So I find it to be bizarre that
they had to rush down to Florida to interview him at his home, and at night. This was a guy who,
if you will recall, was a very powerful mixed martial arts fighter. He was very strong, and
physically threatening. In fact, I heard that the first time the FBI interviewed him, they sent seven
agents because they were so afraid of his physicality.
But then to his last interview, they sent only two guys into the room at his homehighly unusual
behavior. Typically, they would want to have him in a secure environment, somewhere where
they could control what was going on. But no: at night, at his home, and only two guys in the
room. So theres already a lot of stuff that seems unusual, suspicious.
The next day, the FBIs initial statements changed about forty times. Like I said before, first the
story was that he came at them with a pole, then it was a knife, then it was a broomhandle, a
candelabra, or a samurai sword, Im not kidding. You can read these reports in the press. And
then finally, they settle on the story that hes sitting at a table not unlike this, and hes writing
his confession to the murder. Susan Zalkind, who might be in the room tonight, has reported that
the things he wrote in this confession didnt even comport with the facts of the crime scene in
Waltham, so theres some strange stuff there. Then he flips the table, and somehow the table
boomerangs and lands on the back of the FBI agents head, giving him a giant gash in his head.
There are photographs of the FBI agents wound made public. And then [Todashev] runs into the
kitchen, shuffles to find the knife, and then boom, boom is shotsomehow in the back, three
times.
So this is what were told. The FBI, as well as the Florida states attorney, cleared FBI agent
Aaron McFarlane, said the shooting was justified. FBI officials have been cleared in 150 out of 150
shootings over recent years, as Charlie Savage of the New York Times has reported.
One of the things that I find to be the most bizarre, honestly, about this case is that some of the
text messages between the officers that night were printed in the state attorneys report in
Florida. The day after Todashev was killed, one of the officers texts to another one, Im
paraphrasing here, but you can look this up, its on my blog, Great job men, we got through it,
and now were headed home.[*****]
So Im confused about that statement, because if I were a police officer who thought that this
man was perhaps the only living witness to a brutal triple murder in Waltham, Massachusetts,
where three men were nearly decapitated, marijuana was dumped on the bodies, and lots of cash
was left in the house, a truly bizarre crime . . . If you had killed, during an interrogation, the sole
remaining witness to that crime, it strikes me as weird that you would then text, Good job, we
got through it, now were heading home.
I dont know what happened there. The governments mum; information about the investigation is
not being released because the government says that the Waltham murders are still under
investigation, even though theyve also said at times that the two prime suspects are both dead
(both of them at the hands of the government), so, yeah, your guess is as good as mine.
Chomsky: Let me add a word about the reaction to the [Fred] Hampton assassination [in 1969],
which is quite illuminating. There were some local protests. The biggest one by far was in
Chicago, where the assassination took place. Actually, I flew out to Chicago for the funeral a
couple days later. There was a massive funeral; mustve been a thousand people there. Strikingly,
there were almost no white faces, and thats reflected in the coverage and the memories and the
way it was dealt with; it simply did not enter into the national consciousness. There was virtually
no reportingsome, but not muchbecause it wasnt considered significant. So what if the
national police carried out a Gestapostyle murder of two black organizers? Who cares about that?
Very strikingly, this happened in the same era as Watergate, almost the same time. Everybodys
heard about Watergate. What happened at Watergate? Nixon called some people bad names;
there was an enemies list. Nothing happened to anybody on the enemies list. I happen to know
that, because I was on it. They didnt even investigate tax returns, not because I was on it, but
because the head of IBM was on it, McGeorge Bundy was on it. So calling important people bad
names in privatethats a real crime, the foundations of the republic are crumbling.
Take a look at the Watergate indictment. First of all, things like COINTELPRO and the murder of
Fred Hampton, of course are never considered. Who would care about that as compared with
Watergate? But there was one crime on the original indictment that was actually meaningful: the
bombing of Cambodia. It was taken off. That was not part of the indictment. And that tells you
something. It tells you what we consider a crimewe, meaning the liberal establishment. Its not
a crime to murder black organizers in an operation run by the national political police. It is a
crime to call important people bad names in private; thats really terrible. And just compare the
coverage and the memory of these two events, Watergate and the Hampton assassination; youll
learn a lot about the prevailing moral and intellectual culture.
Crockford: I disagree a little bit with what you said about how things were worse under
COINTELPRO. For one thing, the FBI now has access to information about all people that [FBI
director J. Edgar] Hoover would have salivated over, died for perhaps, certainly killed for.
Chomsky: Well, youre right about the information, but take a look at the actions.
Crockford: On the question of actions, I think the government has gotten smarter about how it
pursues its devious intelligence activities. Are they murdering activists in their beds? No. Are they
incarcerating activists and journalists? Absolutely. For long prison terms in federal prison.
Chomsky: Theyve been doing it to Leonard Peltier[******] and others
Crockford: Sure, sure. Marcy Wheeler, a writer who focuses on national security issues, said
something like this: Why are people so worried about drone strikes on U.S. citizens when the FBI
and the police can kill people and get away with it? [In March 2013] a young man named Kimani
Gray was shot dead by the New York police department in the street. The police claimed he had a
gun and that he was waving it at them. Everyone who was in the street watching the murder take
place said there was no gun, the police completely lied, they rolled up on him, two plainclothes
detectives jumped out of the car and shot him dead. They got away with it because theyre
police, and police dont go to prison when they shoot young black men. The question of whether
the government has simply changed its tacticsit seems to me to be impossible for police or FBI
agents to get in trouble for shooting black people dead, so that hasnt fundamentally changed.
Chomsky: Oh, I think it has, though. Take a look at the state troopers in Jackson, Mississippi [in
1970]. Police just cant do that anymore.
Crockford: You mean shoot at a college campus?
Chomsky: Beat them bloody, murder them. Killing them when nobodys looking. I mean, it was
monstrous. Look, what youre describing today is bad, but I think we should not overlook that
theres a history thats much worse. Just take repression: Woodrow Wilsons Red Scare practically
destroyed independent thought in the country, destroyed the unions, kicked thousands of people
out of the country, plenty of violence, and that was a liberal administration. COINTELPRO went
through the most liberal administrations in American history, Kennedy and Johnson.
And the murder of Fred Hampton was just the peak. There were other killings, there was massive
repression, there was breakup of political movements, pretty awful interference with personal
lives and political action. And the history of really oppressed minorities, like blacks, is
incomparably worse. Nothing like that is possible now.
I dont see why one should think that the prospects for longterm political mobilization and
activism are harder today than they were, say, in Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi in the early
1960s, or the 50s, or the 40s when the background of the Civil Rights movement began. Its not
that its easy today. Therell be plenty of surveillance of what youre doingits a burdenbut
being beaten and killed by the police is an even worse burden.
Audience: Back to the Tsarnaev trial and the secrecy surrounding it, its my understanding that
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is under a gag order. Hes not been able to speak to anybody about his
motives. All we have are some sort of cryptic scrawlings on a boat. And making the comparison
with the Timothy McVeigh trialone thing that was more fair was that McVeigh was able to speak
freely about why he did it. It was in response to Waco and Ruby Ridge and the actions of the ATF
and the FBI in slaughtering people at Waco. Could you speak to that gag order a little bit?
Crockford: Yeah, what youre referring to are Special Administrative Measures. If theres a
more Orwellian term for the thing that that describes, then maybe its Special Administrative
Detention. These SAMs, as theyre called, forbid Tsarnaev from speaking to anyone except for his
immediate family and his lawyers. He cant talk to the press, he cant give interviews, and he
cant write statements that can be read by the general public. Im not sure that his lawyers would
let him, even if he could, but he cant. The government wont let him. Also, the government is
monitoring all of his communications. They recordas far as I understand, wiretaphis
conversations with his family when they visit him.
And those SAMs are not unique to Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. I think its really important to remember
that since 9/11 the government has created this special category of prisoner. There are super
supermaxes now; theres one in Illinois, and in fact, the federal government is thinking about
building a new onewhere Obama wanted to move the remaining Guantanamo detainees before
the Republicans barred any federal funds from being spent on such a maneuver. The only people
in them are Muslims and leftwing socalled terrorists: ecoactivists who lit fires at SUV
dealerships, people like that. Nobody else goes to these places. Their communications are
extensively monitored by the Bureau of Prisons. They have very, very restricted rights in terms of
what kind of publications they can access while theyre incarcerated. So yeah, this kind of
treatment that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is subject to during the trial is likely to extend for the rest of
his life.
Audience: We have a lot of people here who are very much part of social media and the Internet,
and I wanted to ask, what are your thoughts on all the access to media that we have today? Has
that made any difference from the time when there were more gatekeepers?
Chomsky: Its got very positive aspects to it. You can get access to information and material that
would have been very hard to get before. You can read Glenn Greenwalds regular reports; you
can find information from the foreign press. These are things that you would have had to do
intensive individual research for not long ago; you can now pick up in the morning with just a
couple of keystrokes, and you can present your opinions, your interpretations. There are
discussions, debates. Things that would have been very hard in the past are now much facilitated.
Practically all the organizing that goes on today is through social media, which is, of course, far
more effective than just trying to find people. So all thats positive.
But theres a negative side tooin practice it tends to separate people from one another. It tends
to set up superficial relationships instead of real live personal relationships, and it tends to
trivialize a lot of communication and interaction, and also to divert people. A tremendous amount
of it is just diversion, and thats harmful and negative. I think its kind of like any technology. The
technology is kind of neutral. We can use it as a very significant force. But its an effort, and a
battle, like anything.
[*] On September 11, 2011, in Waltham, MA, three menBrendan Mess, Erik Weissman, and Rafi
Tekenwere murdered in Messs home. The victims throats were slit, and large amounts of
marijuana and cash were left behind, making a robbery scenario seem unlikely. In 2013, the FBI
claimed it came close to obtaining a written confession from a man named Ibragim Todashev
that would have implicated him and Tamerlan Tsarnaev in the crime. But according to the
agency, in the midst of penning the confession, Todashev attacked an FBI agent and a
Massachusetts state trooper. The FBI agent shot him seven times. Todashevs killing is discussed
below.

[**] Chris Kyle, American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military
History. New York: HarperCollins, 2012.
[***] In a statement to The Intercept, one member of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula wrote of
Charlie Hebdo supporters, I find it funny how this type of people think. It is a crime for a
journalist to be killed, they claim. I would like to pose some questions to them: . . . Was it a
crime to kill Samir Khan for being a member of Inspire Team? Was it a crime to kill Fuad Al
Hadhrami, the brother who accompanied journalists in S.Yemen? Charlie Hebdos editorinchief
Gerard Biard remarked he didnt understand how people can attack a newspaper with heavy
weapons. A newspaper is not a weapon of war. Isnt Inspire a magazine? Are we to conclude that
drones and missiles arent heavy weapons?
[****] The quotation, part of a longer screed written by Tsarnaev on the side of the boat, is
Know you are fighting men who look into the barrel of your gun and see heaven, now how can
you compete with that.
[*****] The text message, which was sent by one of the Massachusetts state troopers, read, Well
done men we all got through it and are now heading home. Great work.
[******] Peltier is a Native American activist who has spent forty years in prison after a dubious
conviction for the murder of two FBI agents shot during a 1975 conflict on the Pine Ridge
Reservation in South Dakota.
https://chomsky.info/townhallonterror/
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The Baffler, January 22, 2015

Crockford: And the U.S. killed Al Jazeera journalists in Iraq as well.

Summers: Okay, were going to take a couple of questions.

Crockford: A term of art, is what he said.

Chomsky: Theyve been doing it to Leonard Peltier[******] and others

Crockford: You mean shoot at a college campus?

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