Dear all

I have two questions about pipe wllthickness calculation:

1-usually in Piping Material Specification we are categorize classes according to

ASME B16.5 pressure rating:150#,300#.....900 and 1500,.

When we are calculate the wall thickness we consider the Pressure that we have
in ASME B16.5, my question is :

If we have a 900# class and we calculated our pipe wall thickness( from 1" up to
14") inaccordance with ASME B16.5, is it possible(for economy reasons) to
consider some lines( 18" and above) with their design pressure which is less
than the pressure we have in ASME B16.5? (Do we have any problems with
Flanges thickness and Pipe wall thickness?)

2-I know that for underground piping in a plant (ASMEB31.3 standard) the
claculation we have for pipe wall thickness is enough, my question is:

If ther are some additional loads on the location which we have under ground
piping how we should consider the additional load into our calculation which
cause more thickness for under ground pipe

(if it is possible please give me an example).

Thank you very much

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#1

Additional loads are best carried by a casing. In the US,

NG pipelines go under railroad tracks in casings 6 inches
or so in diameter more than the actual line, and the line
pipe itself was in a heavier wall through the casing.
Existing underground piping can have the loads
transferred to adjoining piles. A bridge of this sort
permitted siting a crane directly over a 9 foot sewer line.
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 #2
In reply to #1

Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation

09/03/2010 1:23 AM
Thank you for your answer, can you help me in my first
question as well?

Regards,
Register to Reply
ARROW
Member #3

Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation

09/03/2010 2:47 AM

Hi Farzad, with respect to your first question and

Join Date: Jul according I know, for the wall thickness pipe calculation,
2010 first you have to know the design conditions such as
Location: Madrid Temperature, Pressure, and coorosion allowance, with this,
Spain you can use the ASME31.3 to get the thickness, once you
Posts: 7 have this value, you have to choice the schedule of pipe to
use from a comercial table of NPS (Nominal Pipe Size). By
other hand and with respect to the Rating of the flage to be
used, you have to calculate the MAWP; Maximum
Allowable Working Pressure, with the design conditions,
and once gotten this value, you have to go to ASME16.5
and you have choice the rating that you have to use, after
you can specify the flange including the schedule which is
the thickness of the neck of the flange. I hope this
information being useful for your first question and excuse
me if I have some mistake during the redaction of this
note, but english is not my mother language.
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Farzad Jalali
Active Contributor #4
In reply to #3
Join Date: Aug
2010
Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation
Posts: 16
09/03/2010 4:29 AM
 Hello Arrow:

Thanks for your response,

For example we have a 600# rating class,

Up to 10" we are following the schedule (Pipe wall

thickness) in accordance with B31.3 formula, and the
design pressure also is in accordance with ASME B16.5
which is 1290 PSIG for up to 200 deg F.

My question is created here:

For size 12" and above our Design pressure is less than
600# and also more than 300# (e.g for up to 200 deg F
design pressure is 1100 PSIG), our piping class's rating is
still 600# but we are not going to consider 1290 PSIG
design pressure we put 1100PSIG as design pressure in
pipe wall thickness calculation formula (ASME B31.3).

(for having less pipe thickness in comparison with ASME

B16.5 for economy reasons)

I want to know is it correct or are we allowed to do that?

Thanks
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ARROW
Member #5
In reply to #4

Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation

09/03/2010 5:57 AM

Join Date: Jul Hi Farzad, if I am understanding well, you mean that you
2010 want reduce costs reducing the design pressure in the
Location: Madrid design, all this is right whether you are sure of the value to
Spain be used as design pressure, and that this value is going to
Posts: 7 be lesser than operating pressure. The ussual way is
having all the design conditions already defined before
making thickness calculation, and generally these values
are gotten from process department or from a P&ID;
Process and Instrument Diagram.
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cingold
Power-User #6

Join Date: Nov

Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation
2007
Posts: 269
09/03/2010 7:49 AM
Good Answers: 8
For your first question, I would think that you could
design like that as long as you have documentation
proving that every component in your system can
withstand the pressure. Now that's just me speaking so
you might want to read some of B31.3 and B16.5 before
you do anything.

However, most companies make the flange the weakest

component so they can control where the failure will occur.
Read this CR4 thread for some details...

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/52302/Why-are-
Flanges-the-Weakest-Part-of-a-Piping-System

For your second question, you want to handle additional

loads by adding the stresses together. You really need a
pipe analysis done if you combine loads like this. To my
knowledge, B31.3 doesn't give calculations for additional
loads.

One way that I've done it is to add the thickness required

for pressure to that required for something else (like
bending). This is being a little extra conservative but it
works.
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Farzad Jalali
Active Contributor #7
In reply to #6
Join Date: Aug
2010
Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation
Posts: 16
09/07/2010 7:16 AM
Thanks cingold and others for your posting

To explain more:

E.g. we have a piping class with rating 600# in a Piping

Material specification as follow:

According to this Pipe class

Pressure is: 1100 psig

Temperature is: 180 deg F

Although the Design pressure is less than rating 600#

(which is max 1500 psig for the related temperature
according to ASME B16.5) it is also much more than rating
300# (which is max 750) the best rating for this class is
600#.

For up to 10" we have considered the design pressure of

1500 psig for our pipe wall thickness calculation.
(According to B31.3 formula)

After this size due to economic reasons we want to

consider Design pressure 1100psig which is our actual
design pressure (according to the mentioned information)
for our Pipe wall thickness calculation.

My question is,

Is it correct to do that? Is it a normal practice? If it is not

what is the good engineering practice?

Sometimes in pipe classes we have a schedule and wall

thicknesses for sizes up to 10" or 12" but after that we
have a note which says

To be calculated, I want to know what it means.

I think it means that they will be calculated according to

real design pressure (like the above example), am I right?

Thanks
Register to Reply
cingold
Power-User #8
In reply to #7
Join Date: Nov
2007
Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 8
09/07/2010 10:28 AM
I'm trying not to be too specific because there are so many
variables that go into designing pipe specs vs. one line that
I would hate to give you the wrong answer.

Typically, you want to design to flange limit. Your design

pressure is 1100 psig now but what happens if you need to
increase that in the future? Have you looked at the cost of
designing to flange limit vs. your design pressure?

I think I said this before though, as long as you have

engineering calculations to back up your design then you
should be ok. If you do the calculations on each
component through each individual standard (like B31.3)
then you should be fine.

Usually, pipe specs are made to make pipe selection easy.

It's much easier to copy parts off of a piece of paper than to
calculate each one.

The rule we use at our plant is you are supposed to follow

the pipe specs. If you want to deviate from the pipe specs
like you are doing then you fill out a deviation request and
prove that what you are doing is safe.
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ARROW
Member #9
In reply to #8

Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation

09/07/2010 10:43 AM

Join Date: Jul Hi Farzad, cingold is right, in few words and summarizing,
2010 if your project or your design has to meet with piping
Location: Madrid specifications such as a piping class, you shall use the
Spain rating that it has been indicated in the piping class, if is
Posts: 7 not so, and such as has indicated cingolg, you can do that
you have thought.
 Register to Reply
Farzad Jalali
Active Contributor #10
In reply to #6
Join Date: Aug
2010
Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation
Posts: 16
09/08/2010 1:36 AM
Thanks cingold and others for your posting

To explain more:

E.g. we have a piping class with rating 600# in a Piping

Material specification as follow:

According to this Pipe class

Pressure is: 1100 psig

Temperature is: 180 deg F

Although the Design pressure is less than rating 600#

(which is max 1500 psig for the related temperature
according to ASME B16.5) it is also much more than rating
300# (which is max 750) the best rating for this class is
600#.

For up to 10" we have considered the design pressure of

1500 psig for our pipe wall thickness calculation.
(According to B31.3 formula)

After this size due to economic reasons we want to

consider Design pressure 1100psig which is our actual
design pressure (according to the mentioned information)
for our Pipe wall thickness calculation.

My question is,

Is it correct to do that? Is it a normal practice? If it is not

what is the good engineering practice?

Sometimes in pipe classes we have a schedule and wall

thicknesses for sizes up to 10" or 12" but after that we
have a note which says

To be calculated, I want to know what it means.

I think it means that they will be calculated according to

real design pressure (like the above example), am I right?

Thanks
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#12
In reply to #6

Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation

12/14/2010 12:44 PM

hi
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Farzad Jalali
Active Contributor #11

Join Date: Aug

Re: Pipe Wall Thickness Calculation
2010
Posts: 16
09/08/2010 1:40 AM
 Thanks cingold and others for your posting

To explain more:

E.g. we have a piping class with rating 600# in a Piping

Material specification as follow:

According to this Pipe class

Pressure is: 1100 psig

Temperature is: 180 deg F

Although the Design pressure is less than rating 600#

(which is max 1500 psig for the related temperature
according to ASME B16.5) it is also much more than rating
300# (which is max 750) the best rating for this class is
600#.

For up to 10" we have considered the design pressure of

1500 psig for our pipe wall thickness calculation.
(According to B31.3 formula)

After this size due to economic reasons we want to

consider Design pressure 1100psig which is our actual
design pressure (according to the mentioned information)
for our Pipe wall thickness calculation.

My question is,

Is it correct to do that? Is it a normal practice? If it is not

what is the good engineering practice?

Sometimes in pipe classes we have a schedule and wall

thicknesses for sizes up to 10" or 12" but after that we
have a note which says

To be calculated, I want to know what it means.

I think it means that they will be calculated according to

real design pressure (like the above example), am I right?

Thanks

I just want an opinion regarding the hydraulics of pipelines.

If pressure rating is already fixed i.e. ANSI 300# then calculation of MAOP is required or
not?
Please advice.
If pressure rating is already fixed i.e. ANSI 300# then calculation of MAOP is required or
not?
On this topic I would like to say an opinion, even late:

The pressure rating is determined by Max allowable working pressure (MAWP), which
has to cover max pressure potentially formed (as the name denotes). Although pressure
rating may give some idea of potential MAWP (also called design pressure), MAWP
(design pressure) has to be specified in the line lists. This is also supported by the other
contributors to the topic.
Let us assume an ANSI 300-lb class pipeline, flanged, of normal carbon steel, handling
fluid of 750 F design temperature. MAWP=505 psig, according to Perry (7th ed, Table
10-45). For same class of 300-lb, MAWP would differ to 505 psig in case of difference in
material or design temperature (as the table indicates).
Besides the pipeline may have a fitting or instrument of lower MAWP (even though today
all piping components are tried to have same MAWP). Then the whole pipeline gets this
lower MAWP.
At any case, above MAWP is theoretical and rather a maximum value. True MAWP of
the pipeline is the one concluded from the certified hydrostatic test, realized after pipeline
construction. The pressure of this test can be set to a corresponding MAWP lower than
the above, especially in the case when there are pieces of equipment connected to the
pipeline. Then this is the certified MAWP.
Line list specifies (among others) nominal pressure rating, hydrostatic test pressure,
MAWP (design pressure). I think the latter can be significantly lower to MAWP
calculated as above (from Perry).

Note: Required hydrostatic test pressure for piping is set at MAWP x f (f=1.5 for ambient
temperature, f>1.5 for higher temperatures, depending on piping material. Connected
equipment may have lower f, which is confusing to me).
Note 1: Exceeding MAWP (design pressure) by a rather small percentage is permissible
per some piping codes for a short time.
Is there any formula/Table to understand what is
"equivalent"(from max allowable pressure point of
view)flange rating of a specific pipe size with specific
schedule number?
for example 3" pipe with Sch #XS is equal to (can be
connected to) Flange 300 lb?
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PAN (Mechanical) 14 Jul 05 2:21
shahyar

I do not see any problem to use 3"-Sch.XS, welding

neck flange class 300.
Assume that you use carbon steel pipe, Sch. 40 is also
acceptable. The weakest point should be flange
connection.

Please give the specific question.

moltenmetal (Chemical) 14 Jul 05 8:18
Flange rating and pipe schedule aren't tied in the
simplistic way you're describing. As PAN says, there
are instances where you use 300# flanges on sch10S
pipe, and there are also situations where you may
need XXS pipe for the same flange rating. If you
dumb the design exercise down to something as
simple as a table, you end up with massive overdesign
for most cases without totally eliminating the
possibility of underdesign in other cases.
shahyar (Chemical) 14 Jul 05 11:48
Thanks.
In my question, I mentioned "Formula",too.(Even
before "Table").
If that is not "simplistic", I like to know the way that I
finally, can say: "I do not see any problem to use.." ,
in a specific situation.
Probably here is not good place for the answer, but I
am looking for some sources for that type of
calculation.

Thanks again.
jte (Mechanical) 14 Jul 05 13:53
shahyar-

I'd say the simplest "formula" is as follows: Design

the pipe for a given set of design conditions. Choose a
flange which meets the design conditions. Combine
pipe and flange.

As mentioned in previous posts, trying to get it all

into one formula/table isn't feasible. Think about it: If
it was, we'd all be using the formula/table.

Things you'd have to incorporate into your formula

include (but, as the lawyers would force me to say,
"but are not limited to"):
Design pressure, design temperature (don't forget that
flange ratings usually start to drop before allowalbe
piping stress), corrosion allowance, piping load on
flanges, MDMT, etc.

Its about as simplistic as this mechanical engineer

thinks process engineering is!

jt
ytse (Mechanical) 14 Jul 05 16:34
Flange ratings are defined in ASME B16.5 for the
different materials at different temperatures (e.g. 150#
CS flange -material group 1.1 - has a rating of 285 psi
at 100F)

For pipe, it's a different story. It all depends on the

piping code you are using to design your system.
Different piping codes has different formulas for
calculation of pipe wall thickness and different
allowable stresses (even for the same material).

For example, ASME B31.3 require that the mil

tolerenance be subtracted from the nominal wall
thickness when calculating the pressure rating, where
B31.4 uses nominal wall thickness for that
calculation. Also, B31.3 uses a 0.85 weld joint
efficiency factor on welded pipe where B31.4 use a
joint efficiency facor of 1 on most ERW pipe. These
variations, in addition to the different allowable
stress, produce vastly different results among
different codes.

You need to determine which code you are using for

the piping system first, then look up the fomula in the
appropiate code.

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Is there any formula/Table to understand what is

"equivalent"(from max allowable pressure point of
view)flange rating of a specific pipe size with specific
schedule number?
for example 3" pipe with Sch #XS is equal to (can be
connected to) Flange 300 lb?

Thanks for your replies

Check Out Our Whitepaper Library. Click Here.
Back To Forum
PAN (Mechanical) 14 Jul 05 2:21
Back To Pipelines, Piping and
shahyar Fluid Mechanics engineering
I do not see any problem to use 3"-Sch.XS, welding
neck flange class 300.

Assume that you use carbon steel pipe, Sch. 40 is also

acceptable. The weakest point should be flange
connection.

Please give the specific question.

 moltenmetal (Chemical) 14 Jul 05 8:18
Flange rating and pipe schedule aren't tied in the
simplistic way you're describing. As PAN says, there
are instances where you use 300# flanges on sch10S
pipe, and there are also situations where you may
need XXS pipe for the same flange rating. If you
dumb the design exercise down to something as
simple as a table, you end up with massive overdesign
for most cases without totally eliminating the
possibility of underdesign in other cases.
shahyar (Chemical) 14 Jul 05 11:48
Thanks.
In my question, I mentioned "Formula",too.(Even
before "Table").
If that is not "simplistic", I like to know the way that I
finally, can say: "I do not see any problem to use.." ,
in a specific situation.
Probably here is not good place for the answer, but I
am looking for some sources for that type of
calculation.

Thanks again.
jte (Mechanical) 14 Jul 05 13:53
shahyar-

I'd say the simplest "formula" is as follows: Design

the pipe for a given set of design conditions. Choose a
flange which meets the design conditions. Combine
pipe and flange.

As mentioned in previous posts, trying to get it all

into one formula/table isn't feasible. Think about it: If
it was, we'd all be using the formula/table.

Things you'd have to incorporate into your formula

include (but, as the lawyers would force me to say,
"but are not limited to"):
Design pressure, design temperature (don't forget that
flange ratings usually start to drop before allowalbe
piping stress), corrosion allowance, piping load on
flanges, MDMT, etc.

Its about as simplistic as this mechanical engineer

thinks process engineering is!
jt
ytse (Mechanical) 14 Jul 05 16:34
Flange ratings are defined in ASME B16.5 for the
different materials at different temperatures (e.g. 150#
CS flange -material group 1.1 - has a rating of 285 psi
at 100F)

For pipe, it's a different story. It all depends on the

piping code you are using to design your system.
Different piping codes has different formulas for
calculation of pipe wall thickness and different
allowable stresses (even for the same material).

For example, ASME B31.3 require that the mil

tolerenance be subtracted from the nominal wall
thickness when calculating the pressure rating, where
B31.4 uses nominal wall thickness for that
calculation. Also, B31.3 uses a 0.85 weld joint
efficiency factor on welded pipe where B31.4 use a
joint efficiency facor of 1 on most ERW pipe. These
variations, in addition to the different allowable
stress, produce vastly different results among
different codes.

You need to determine which code you are using for

the piping system first, then look up the fomula in the
appropiate code.

Start A New Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-

only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other

members!

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are not allowed in the forums.
Posting Policies

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 Professionally Managed Technical Forum)
TITLE: Pipelines, Piping and Fluid Mechanics
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DESCRIPTION: Pipelines, Piping and Fluid
Mechanics engineering technical support forum
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