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2 STATE OF COLORADO
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5 -------------------------------------------------------
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23 Shorthand Reporters.
25 had:
2
1 APPEARANCES
3 EXHIBITS
8 INDEX
9 WITNESS PAGE
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3
1 PROCEEDINGS
3 proceeding to order.
9 Association.
18 Association.
22 Company of Colorado.
7 morning.
9 Honor.
25 Your Honor.
5
1 Tim Flanagan on behalf of Trinichera
10 Resource Advocates.
11 Good morning.
17 Other counsel?
6 objection?
7 (No response.)
22 question.
2 of May, 2009.
17 Agriculture.
7 hours.
10 evidence.
21 further comments.
3 afternoon.
7 that correct?
11 you.
15 Mandell?
20 Thanks.
4 or --
6 comfortable.
13 this docket.
21 that point.
2 advocacy pleadings.
11 as a result.
24 parties.
6 coal-fired capacity.
9 completed yet.
18 Valmont?
2 Ms. Mandell?
6 relatively short.
2 motion.
7 Commission's rules.
23 scenarios.
6 modeling scenarios.
9 Mandell.
11 responds?
12 Mr. Santisi.
17 are true and accurate and I just think that the record
13 (No response.)
16 Honor.
24 proceeding.
13 what is at issue.
25 transmission planning.
23
1 When we raise that issue here, Public
15 like the game where you beat the mole down and they pop
17 this proceeding.
23 Mr. --
3 when asked about the same issue, you raise that as one
5 administrative notice.
9 cross-examination?
17 of bounds.
7 signed by a lawyer.
9 no?
2 documents, correct?
11 the lawyers.
6 Service to do that.
8 you.
25 true?
29
1 MR. FLANAGAN: Yes. Yes, Your Honor.
6 more than this one comment, yes; but there hasn't been
14 report?
25 there, yes.
30
1 A.L.J. JENNINGS-FADER: What facts do you
6 the ones they want here for the same sort of planning,
17 administrative notice?
22 undisputed facts.
8 the inputs --
24 burden.
3 preliminary matter.
13 Sheffrin's testimony.
3 Honor.
6 whole ball of wax; but I'll allow it. I don't see that
16 identification.)
17 (Recess.)
11 (No response.)
13 Applicants?
21 solar, and the lower range being what was asked for in
22 proceed.
6 when you set the bounds for how the 377 docket would be
9 concluded.
14 of these proceedings.
18 up.
20 too.
12 like you to state your name for the record and spell
17 much, Doctor.
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
23 A Good morning.
5 approach?
7 (Pause.)
12 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
14 front of you?
15 A I do.
17 current CV?
18 A It is.
20 A I did.
2 (No response.)
4 admitted.
6 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
8 you as an economist?
9 A Yes, it is.
16 educational background?
23 industry?
24 A Yes, I have.
12 institute.
23 semester.
18 energy.
22 in particular?
3 California.
5 ISO, do you --
21 California.
2 A Yes.
20 inception.
10 reasons.
19 additions?
20 A Yes.
22 responsibilities there?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Go ahead.
4 you do that?
12 CAL ISO or other work that you have done, with the
15 case?
22 industry?
5 A SMUD, S-M-U-D.
7 A Yes.
3 A Yes, it did.
5 A Yes.
23 portfolio?
5 rates.
19 portfolio?
9 at that time?
22 talked about.
6 A Yes, we did.
11 energy technologies?
22 utility industry?
23 A Yes, I have.
25 briefly.
53
1 A Sure. Off the top of my head --
10 energy crisis.
17 those were?
6 need?
16 A Yes, I do.
19 addition?
20 A Yes, I do.
23 A Yes.
2 A Yes.
16 A Yes, I am.
18 where she said that the best place to look for Public
3 correct that that 2010 RES Compliance Plan that she was
5 A Yes, it does.
20 investment of renewables.
8 Trinichera Ranch?
9 (No response.)
18 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
8 Plan that Ms. Hyde was discussing, that she was relying
15 lower energy sales forecast; the fact that they got bid
20 assumptions.
2 highly unlikely.
5 A Yes, I did.
17 Q I believe --
22 plants.
7 dollars?
9 available dollars.
15 A Yes. Yes.
19 the old bid and now the new bid is different; did I
21 A Yes.
6 me as to those two?
8 natural gas?
9 Q Yes.
20 Q Sure.
22 7.3 and 7.4 and saw that the impact on carbon is again
3 cheaper.
17 point?
22 negative.
10 of it.
15 Mr. Douglas?
3 the subject; they have been provided with the basis for
23 disclosure.
11 those either.
12 (Pause.)
15 but --
20 whatever --
3 the 26th?
8 7-4 had been amended during the course of the 2010 RES
11 analysis.
20 27th.
25 deposition?
71
1 MR. McGANN: The deposition was at 9:00
3 the afternoon.
8 Mr. Douglas?
18 dates correct?
3 Honor.
5 the chronology.
10 Sheffrin.
13 of the deposition.
17 deposition.
24 assistant?
5 discovery?
9 just --
6 may.
8 present.
9 Thank you.
15 balance. And the reason that this could not have been
2 this at her deposition that she had the idea that this
3 opinion that Ms. Hyde had just told us about and how it
6 quantify.
13 out what all the numbers are, where they come from,
24 needed.
19 would be helpful.
23 as an exhibit?
6 Exhibit 145.
11 identification.
16 the record.
21 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
23 front of you?
24 A I do.
2 A It is.
4 your direction?
5 A It was.
8 in this exhibit?
9 A I have.
14 objection?
19 table?
23 BY MR. McGANN:
10 A I --
13 opinions.
15 beyond that, I'm not sure how that goes to voir dire of
16 the document.
18 Honor.
19 BY MR. McGANN:
9 document.
16 the exhibit.
23 proceeding.
16 either.
8 E-mail.
14 that was sent out on June 11th. Even when the exhibit
22 provided.
12 decision.
3 customers.
8 plan and the need for the line. And, essentially, this
13 here.
4 record.
8 be admitted?
20 identification?
17 well.
17 in this case.
21 transcript?
25 Honor?
97
1 A.L.J. JENNINGS-FADER: You may. I will
22 basis."
25 changes.
98
1 Then, in cross examination, at page 167
11 RESA dollars."
10 available.
22 July.
16 that was produced, for the first time, on July 26, but
4 in Footnote 1.
2 the Tables 7-3 and 7-4 that we used with Ms. Hyde, at
6 time.
9 concluded?
24 points as well.
9 for that, and we did what both sides have been doing in
17 Ms. Hyde and Dr. Sheffrin also talk about. And these
16 cannot sit here today and argue that its hands are
24 at this time.
3 consider this.
9 exhibit.
6 that we're objecting to. And that is not what Ms. Hyde
18 disclosure.
10 to clarify that.
18 I have it electronically.
21 line 19. And it continues on, but this will give you
7 renewables.
13 recollection?
22 yes.
6 my --
23 that.
3 something else?
14 surprise.
16 what Ms. Hyde could or could not have done with respect
15 chose not to. They could have done it for natural gas,
25 the time, and the fact that they chose not to -- except
122
1 with carbon. They did do that one. And Dr. Sheffrin
9 (Recess.)
11 the record.
23 7-4?
5 clarifying question?
11 absolutely.
21 Tables?
3 transcript -- apologies.
11 originally filed?
14 reflected in 141?
21 assumptions.
23 ahead.
2 were calculated.
7 corner of that page, that table, you will see that RESA
13 7-4, take a look at the top right, you will see that
18 straight in my ahead.
7 a persuasive argument.
8 value, in my opinion.
19 admitted.
21 I proceed?
24 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
11 A Yes, I do.
22 the future, than what was shown in Table 7.3 and 7.4.
12 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
12 A I do.
22 dollar.
23 Q Small offset?
25 Q And --
134
1 A To the large negative impact. I'm sorry.
12 A Yes.
21 And the second factor is the higher bid price for solar
24 Compliance Plan.
19 with those?
20 A Yes.
2 A Yes, I do.
14 actually be acquired?
18 speculative, in my opinion.
22 this case?
5 proposed project?
12 happy to proceed to --
14 rephrase.
15 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
21 answered.
24 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
4 this case?
9 the basis for the need for the project. I think the
13 different question.
16 Dr. Sheffrin.
17 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
7 those resources?
8 A I do.
13 parts do not.
10 Trinchera Ranch.
7 objection.
9 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
14 A Yes.
19 A Yes.
2 that uncertainty.
19 my opinion.
20 Q Okay.
23 question was, Dr. Sheffrin, how does the fact that you
17 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
6 A Yes.
8 issue?
7 (Pause.)
18 that decision.
12 resources.
15 when Ms. Hyde said she won't even need them until 2029,
21 testimony.
23 the objection.
9 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
23 A Yes, I do.
2 Q Well, sure.
12 about.
15 that?
17 moment?
18 Q Sure.
8 basis.
22 Report?
11 applicable to Colorado?
23 A Yes, I do.
24 Q What is that?
3 technologies.
7 A Yes, it is.
8 Q Okay.
10 approach?
13 identification.)
14 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
16 front of you?
17 A I do.
19 familiar with?
20 A Yes.
22 your direction?
23 A Yes, it was.
3 it is?
6 I believe.
9 exhibit is admitted.
12 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
15 Exhibit 146?
19 Q Okay.
22 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
2 Q Okay.
7 objection?
16 to voir dire.
17 A.L.J. JENNINGS-FADER: We do -- we
20 Honor?
9 here?
13 BY MR. SOPKIN:
15 A Good afternoon.
19 A I do.
21 report, correct?
22 A I have.
25 A Yes.
158
1 Q Under Section 1.3, you would agree
7 A Yes.
10 A Yes.
16 that correct?
17 A Yes.
24 A I do.
3 A Yes.
15 assumptions?
19 stakeholders.
22 data?
14 that section?
16 Q On page 4-5?
17 A I am there.
20 A Yes.
3 A Yes.
18 that point?
21 BY MR. SOPKIN:
6 A Yes.
10 A Yes.
25 thermal plant?
163
1 MR. DOUGLAS: Your Honor, I am going to
14 go to that point.
22 A I do.
25 storage?
164
1 A I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Again, what are
13 storage is used?
23 A Yes.
2 4-8?
4 sorry.
8 A Yes.
2 BY MR. SOPKIN:
9 storage.
20 Exhibit 146?
7 BY MR. SOPKIN:
9 sentence, correct?
10 A Yes.
21 it's misleading.
24 identification?
2 exhibit itself.
10 replication.
2 Dr. Sheffrin.
4 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
6 point that Your Honor asked about Figure 4-1, which you
11 1 -- RETI 2.
16 A Yes, it does.
19 A Yes.
22 RETI 1 figures?
23 A Yes, it does.
3 hours of storage?
4 A Yes, it does.
10 for identification?
21 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
2 case?
14 146?
22 A I believe --
9 price itself?
14 address counsel?
23 acceptable?
2 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
10 Colorado?
16 that I would --
24 by itself.
3 presented, is misleading?
9 study, and the numbers from this studies, she says it's
7 look at page 4-6 of the RETI Report, they even set out
3 document.
12 BY MR. SOPKIN:
23 and $226?
14 applicable.
15 BY MR. SOPKIN:
16 Q And --
21 the range?
23 to get into this, and talk about how close it is, we're
25 that, but Mr. Sopkin is implying that it's way off from
178
1 the bottom. And, I think, if we actually get into the
3 show.
4 BY MR. SOPKIN:
6 page 4-8 of the RETI Report, and you see Figure 4-1?
7 A Yes.
12 Colorado?
21 includes storage?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay.
3 BY MR. SOPKIN:
7 to this?
8 BY MR. SOPKIN:
10 Report.
11 A Yes.
16 A Yes.
25 testimony.
180
1 MR. SOPKIN: I don't recall the exact
2 words.
3 BY MR. SOPKIN:
5 representative of?
8 megawatt-hour.
13 A Yes.
20 specifically?
23 the calculation.
4 that figure?
5 A Yes.
25 Intervenors' representatives.)
182
1 MR. DOUGLAS: Your Honor, if I may
4 may.
6 identification.)
8 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
10 front of you?
11 A I do.
14 A Yes, it is.
18 A Yes, it does.
4 technologies, generally?
7 technologies.
23 technologies nationwide?
24 A Yes, I do.
4 objection?
10 BY MR. SOPKIN:
18 A Yes.
22 geographic area?
23 A Yes.
5 specific reason?
8 A They do vary.
10 vary?
12 costs.
14 costs.
15 A Oh.
18 A Yes.
20 A Yes.
4 Estimates (MW)"?
5 A Yes.
8 A Yes.
14 buy, so. . .
2 into that. And it's not to say that the costs in this
8 A Yes.
13 would want.
14 Q Okay.
21 of the witness.
13 we are.
17 (Lunch recess.)
20 preliminary matters?
23 Mr. Douglas.
25 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
191
1 Q Good afternoon, Dr. Sheffrin.
2 A Good afternoon.
8 today?
25 decision-making.
192
1 Now, Public Service Company has already
13 plan that they file in 2011, and they should affect the
23 project?
15 period of time.
20 And given that, and given the fact that this is the
24 transmission line.
6 accurate?
7 A Yes.
11 of solar.
12 Q Okay.
14 anything further.
18 examination Tri-State?
22 Mr. Sopkin.
24 CROSS EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. SOPKIN:
196
1 Q Good afternoon, Dr. Sheffrin.
2 A Good afternoon.
6 BY MR. SOPKIN:
13 A Yes, it is.
17 correct?
24 A Yes.
12 A All right.
15 curves?
21 A Yes, I do.
25 A Yes.
198
1 Q And do you agree that the cost of solar
4 A Yes, I do.
6 for that?
9 difference.
11 A Yes.
21 conditions.
6 please?
8 intermittent resources?
9 A Yes.
12 DG?
18 Colorado?
24 A Yes, I am.
5 of these renewables?
11 credit.
14 Company's system?
18 solar PV resources?
24 comparison.
7 you know?
8 A I would be guessing.
10 storage either?
13 capacity credit.
19 that?
20 Q Sure.
17 A I do.
18 Q Okay.
21 BY MR. SOPKIN:
3 may.
5 BY MR. SOPKIN:
7 deposition?
8 A Yes.
17 A Yes.
23 that?
24 A Yes, I do.
6 thermal.
11 or more?
17 Mr. Sopkin.
20 manner, that the cost of solar PV, and I think she said
8 BY MR. SOPKIN:
11 quarter or more.
7 thermal, correct?
8 A Correct.
13 A Industrywide, yes.
18 A Yes.
22 identification.)
23 BY MR. SOPKIN:
25 A I do.
207
1 Q -- in front of you? And you're pretty
4 A Yes, I am.
6 A Yes, I do.
12 resources by 2020.
13 Q Okay.
22 document.
6 versus gander or --
15 Mr. Sopkin.
7 Your Honor.
10 BY MR. SOPKIN:
3 factors.
16 did produce the e-mail that set out what the three
18 down.
24 Mr. Sopkin.
16 BY MR. SOPKIN:
22 A I do not know.
2 correct?
15 plants?
9 A Yes.
15 Q Okay.
21 A Yes.
23 that correct?
24 A Yes.
8 accumulate to be.
12 case?
16 State of Colorado?
18 job functions.
25 on ratepayers, correct?
215
1 A Yes.
7 correct?
12 certainty.
23 A I did.
3 elements.
8 A Yes.
16 constraint involved.
16 information?
3 that?
13 is not done.
18 correct?
6 A Yes, I am.
18 A Okay.
5 Bernanke article.
8 A Okay.
23 billion, correct?
8 Mr. Sopkin.
11 could result --
21 BY MR. SOPKIN:
9 Sopkin.
16 question.
17 BY MR. SOPKIN:
20 happen?
21 Q Yes.
25 BY MR. SOPKIN:
226
1 Q Would you agree that Federal incentives
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
18 in the justification.
19 Q Okay.
8 Q Well --
10 Highly subscribed?
13 Sorry.
15 BY MR. SOPKIN:
19 A Tehachapi.
23 A Yes.
2 plan, correct?
4 Q In existence.
7 be built.
20 may.
24 recollection?
5 BY MR. SOPKIN:
12 driven, correct?
21 A Yes.
3 correct?
8 generator interest.
9 Q Understand.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Thank you.
14 (Pause.)
15 BY MR. SOPKIN:
23 opportunities, correct?
3 moment?
8 Your Honor.
11 this witness?
14 Ms. Mandell?
16 Thank you.
4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
7 there.
8 A Okay.
12 the record.
13 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
21 was one other that Mr. Sopkin asked you about, but does
24 case?
24 thermal.
6 intended.
11 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
15 said?
2 BY MR. DOUGLAS:
21 experience.
2 area of 75%?
8 interconnection agreement.
12 project?
17 Plan?
20 place.
13 irreversible decision.
15 further.
22 the hospitality.
7 rebuttal?
11 Your Honor.
16 proceeding.
21 Exhibits 132, 133, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 143, and
21 evidentiary record?
5 Honor.
4 negative.)
6 open.
9 premature.
12 situation is.
19 decision.
21 by the --
4 we've got.
20 docket?
11 limit.
21 so.
23 question?
25 more questions.
246
1 MR. SOPKIN: With regard to that, the
4 Honor.
6 Sopkin?
22 are adjourned.
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1 CERTIFICATION
2 STATE OF COLORADO )
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18 ___________________________
Harriet Weisenthal
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23 ___________________________
James Midyett
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