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108650-ac-installed-without-pulling-a-vacuum
we had new ac systems installed at 70 unit apartment complex. 15 months later we have 7
compressors go out, unfortunately its 3 months after the labor warranty ran out.What
happens to the comp.when you don't pull a vacuum and is this a fluke or should I expect
more comp.to go out?

More lost compressors will follow. A system evacuation at the time of installation is
essential. Evacuation serves two functions.

1) It removes the air (non-condensibles) from the system. Air contains oxygen which serves
to chemically react with the refrigerant and oil which is constantly heated and cooled as well
as subjected to high and then low pressures in the system. The heat and pressure are
enough to make a chemist jealous!

2) An evacuation also removes water vapor from the system. The water vapor helps ensure
the chemical breakdown as per number 1 above.

All HVAC manufacturers require that a 500 micron evacuation be performed on their
equipment. It is in their installation instructions and taught by all factory instructors.

If you have an R-22 system the air and moisture produces hydrochloric and hydroflouric
acids. Two of the most potent acids possible.

Expect more. I guess you now know what happens.

Moisture is the most harmful enemy of the air conditioning system. If there is any moisture
is in the system, it will combine with the refrigerant to form hydrochloric acid which is
extremely corrosive to metal components and will eventually affect the sealing surfaces,
components and joints resulting in internal or external leaks. Almost all of the moisture is
removed by evaculation with a vacuum pump.

The system becomes contaminated and the mechanisms in place to remove some of the
contamination gets overloaded. You want no water, no air, no bugs, no metal filings, no
crusty silver soldered connections in the inside of the pipe and for purists no fingerprints. It
takes forever to pump down a fingerprint in a high vacuum chamber. Long life and good
performance requires squeeky clean cleanliness.
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?19665-Can-I-install-split-a-c-without-
vac-pump

Re: Can I install split a/c without vac pump.

You can not install a split system without a vacuum pump.
No way in the world, full stop.
Well you can if you want to throw out the unit in 3 years or so.

Have you ever seen old wall/window a/c lasting 15 years? Or old fridges still going? I have,
and that's because they were factory assembled, evacuated and charged properly.
No way in the world that a unit not installed properly with a decent pressure test and
evacuation is ever going to last 5 years.

There's two things that will kill a refrigeration system. AIR is not a refrigerant, raises
pressures and contains contanimants harmful to the system. MOISTURE - reacts badly to
the oils used, destroys the comprsesor, may block up refrigerant control devices as it forms
ice.
Purging refrigerant through the pipes is illegal and doesn't get rid of all the air or any of
moisture anyway.
There's no shortcuts if you want your system to last, you need to get this part right.
edit: I don't know the laws or regs there, but if you must, get a set of gauges and a vac
pump cheap on ebay. On the other hand, do you even know how to do a leak proof flare
join? That fact and the price for the equipment, it isn't that hard to get someone out surely?
It's worth the cost, I normally charge au$300 for everything bar the mains electrics (ie
fitting the indoor, outdoor, interconnect electrics, drain, pipes, insulation, wiring and conduit
from the isolator, and pipe covers etc) or $150 just to do pipework and evac if the unit is
already fully installed. Thats like 70 for the piping work, cheaper than you could buy a set
of gauges, a vac gauge and a vac pump anyway.

2- Vac'ing out splits only came about because of the ozone cfc debate, not because of good
refrigeration practice. In fact splits are only as common as they are now because of the
intense de-skilling of installation proceedure the Japanese forced on the market.

For many years Fujitsu did not recommend vaccuming, they simply stated "how to purge
lines-depress suction valve for 10 seconds after opening pre expansion valve"

Daikin even now recommend on a not less than figure of 10 minutes for 15 metres, hardly
enough to remove moisture..

The industry has for a long time attempted to force the splits market to drop flares and pre-
charging but the manufacturers know this would kill their business..

3-meh, I've always vacced out splits,but I've only dealt with splits as far back as 1997. I'm

not one to ever read installation instructions though I'm sure others did vac them out
too, because it would be pretty rare to see the amount of old splits I see still running if they
were never vacc'ed. Don't forget, they don't have driers fitted. I'm pretty sure I had a vac

pump before the CFC legislation Freezers, coolrooms and chillers don't work too good
without an evacuation prior to charging. I've nevr been a split basher, I'm a refrig tech that
worked in other facets of the industry before I dealt with splits and domestics. I'm only
dealing with them now because it's the easiest way to be self employed, dealing with the
small stuff that a one man company can easily do. I could have kept to commercial until I
got an office job, but I'd rather be self employed and deal with the easily handled small
stuff.

I don't know the situation where you are, but the problem with splits down here is that
refrig techs were never interested in them, they'd rather be doing real refrigeration or
industrial than bash some whitegood up in a wall. So because of that, gas fitters,
electricians and plumbers installed them to keep up with the huge demand, and lobbied the
governments for rights to fit them. That's when standards got slack and bad installations
occured.
I agree it could all be fixed if they weren't pre-charged. That's why I hardly ever felt sorry
when the manufacturer footed the bill for all the warranty claims here

edit: If you're reading ozairman, I tried to fight the good fight, but I was told to repair and
recharge by the manufacturers a few times after I proved it was an install fault, just
because the manufacturers tried to keep the customer happy and the installer couldn't
repair because they fought it, (because they were unlicenced to buy refrigerant, you know
how it goes)

Aww cmon guys your being a bit harsh,, it's standard pratice for cypriot installers not to use
a vac pump, they fit about 7 splits in a day over here, and i must say it certainly keeps me

in business going back for the warranty breakdowns ... seriously tho, I do keep to good
installation practice myself and always will, trouble is it takes longer and costs the customer
more, the problem here is trying to educate people that you really do get what you pay for
and if you want a unit that will last more than a year have it installed by a professional ,, it
is beyond belief the amount of top of the range splits like daikin they are prepared to shell
out for , then skimp on the installation !!

5- I did an experiment some time ago with a lab test unit.... I think it was a lennox 2 ton
standard system 10 SEER back then...

put the unit together the proper way other than I outfitted it and the lineset with flares
because i knew it being in a lab I would have it apart and back together a few times...

evac'd the system down... even sucked the refrigerant out of the "precharged" condensor
into a tank so i could measure how much weight there was...

then I charged it up ran it.. took the performance numbers on it...

recovered the system down to a vacuum,pushed the "precharge" to the condensor and
closed the king valves...

let the lineset and evaporator coil sit wide open for a couple hours... then re-fitted the flares
(it was a lab system dont flame me for re-fitting the flares)
released the charge into the system and pushed the unit through the same battery of tests i
had before..

I noted that yes I lost about 3-6% of capacity.. but where it really got me was how much
more energy the unit pulled.. also the non-condensables in the system caused for there to
be gas pockets in the liquid line. higher head pressures.. all the same things as people
mentioned above...

so the third test I ran was... putting the proper pre-charge to the condensor unit... letting
the lines and evaporator stay open.. only I did it with very low humidity in my lab... no
evacuation just put it back together.. ...slightly cracked the king valve on the liquid side and
did a 3 second bleed off on the suction side... started it up and it ran as good as the evac'd
system... within 1% energy and capacity...

so I cant condone the bleed method because of regulations but I can say that it did work....
for R-22..

for R-410a I would say the ONLY way is a COMPLETE evacuation..well for any system i say
that because thats the BEST way... oh and obviously the laws and the charge needs to be
dead on target for the unit to work right...
-Christopher
P.S. that old lab system is still running great in a friend's house now... flare fittings that
were opened and closed numerous times, the heavy duty testing i put it through and all...