Академический Документы
Профессиональный Документы
Культура Документы
toyibonline
Report post
(salam)
While doing some research on some things, I came across this Salafi fatwa and it caught my
interest. It is about Abdaals. The writer is attacking the Sufi views regarding the awliyah and
abdaals:
And they do not stop there in their definition of a wali; rather they say that the wali controls the
universe; he says to a thing Be! and it is. In their view, every wali has been appointed by Allaah
to control some aspect of creation. Four awliya are holding the earth by its four corners, and they
are called al-awtaad (lit. tent pegs). Seven other awliya each control one of the seven continents
of the world, and they are called al-abdaal (because when one of them dies, another takes his
place badalahu). There are a number of awliya in each region: thirty or forty in Egypt, and a
similar number in Syria and Iraq, each of whom is appointed in charge of something. Above all of
them is one wali who is called the al-qutb al-akbar (lit. great pole or axis) or al-ghawth (source of
help), and he is the one who is running the affairs of the entire realm. Thus they believe in an
unseen realm which controls the affairs of mankind like a political state. This state is led by the
qutb or ghawth, followed by two imams or ministers, then the four awtaad, then the seven abdaal.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/83038
I find the submissions really interesting. The Salafi author goes ahead to condemn this Sufi
concept, declaring it to be rooted in Greek paganism. Blah! Blah! Blah!
The hadeeth mentioned by the questioner is a daeef (weak) hadeeth, which is not saheeh at all.
There is nothing narrated via any saheeh isnaad which mentions any of the degrees of awliya as
known to the Sufis.
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Manaar al-Muneef (136):
The ahaadeeth about the adbaal, aqtaab, aghwaath, nuqaba, nujaba and awtaad are all falsely
attributed to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The closest of
them is the hadeeth which says Do not revile the people of Syria, for among them there are
abdaal; every time one of them dies, Allaah replaces him with another man. This was narrated by
Ahmad, but it is not saheeh either, because it is munqati.
Then, he cites Ibn Taymiyyah's similar weakening of hadiths on Abdaals, and so on. The truth, of
course, is that hadiths about Abdaals, are sahih!
: :
: :
The Syrians were mentioned in the presence of Ali while he was in Iraq, and they said to him: "O
Amir al-Muminin, curse them".
Ali replied: No, for I heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) saying: 'Abdaals will be found in Syria.
They will be forty in number. Whenever one of them passes away, he will be replaced by another.
Through them, help is granted. Through them, Muslims gain victory over their enemy. And
through them, punishment is removed for the people of Syria.'
Al-Haythami states:
Ahmad has narrated it, and its narrators are narrators of Sahih except Shurayh ibn Ubayd, and he
is thiqah. He had heard from al-Miqdad before Ali.
The same hadith has been recorded in Kanz al-Ummal 12/344, No. 34607, with this comment:
There are many more authentications of this hadith, as well as other versions that show that:
etc.
So, somehow, Abdaals are true, according to Sunni hadiths. That then opens up a lot of new
horizons. I just want some Sunnis to explain better this concept of Abdaal. Then, we can examine
some of their greatest objections to the Sh'a concept of Imamate, and what we call Wilayat
Takwiniyyah.
Aabiss_Shakari
http://www.abubakr.org
Aabiss_Shakari
Veteran Member
1,201
5,853 posts
Location: Shia Chat
Religion: True Shia Twelver Islam
Report post
zaigham abbas
Member
zaigham abbas
Advanced Members
0
309 posts
Report post
Anybody with a rational mind and unbiased will easily figure out that these Hadith about Abdaals,
Qutubs and even Mahdi are product of a need to legitimize a system and appear in the Hadith
books at certain times. Like there is no Hadith about Mahdi in any islamic literature till 300 hijri.
The first Hadith of Mahdi appears in Bukhari and Muslim without mentioning the name, authored
around 300 hijri, then subsequent literature authored beyond 400 hijri start to give such elaborate
details of Mahdi that one wonders why was so much missed for nearly 400 years.
Uthman87
Uthman87
Basic Members
0
9 posts
Report post
Hassan kachal
Member
Hassan kachal
Advanced Members
6
1,159 posts
Report post
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
toyibonline said:
(salam)
So, somehow, Abdaals are true, according to Sunni hadiths. That then opens up a lot of new
horizons. I just want some Sunnis to explain better this concept of Abdaal. Then, we can examine
some of their greatest objections to the Sh'a concept of Imamate, and what we call Wilayat
Takwiniyyah.
http://www.sufi.co.za/article%20spiritual%...inistration.htm
Abu Tufayl
Member
Abu Tufayl
Veteran Member
2,579
3,601 posts
Report post
Quote
He said: Abu Bakr, Muhammad b. Umar al-Je'abi, reported to me from Abul Abbas, Ahmad b.
Muhammad b. Saeed, who reported from Umar b. Isa b. Uthman, who reported from his father,
who reported from Khalid b. Amir b. Abbas, from Muhammad b. Swaid al-Ash'ari who said:
Fatr b. Khalifa and I called upon Ja'far b. Muhammad(AS), and he presented some dates to us
which we ate, and gave some to Fatr. Then he said to him (Fatr): "What about the tradition which
Abu al-Tufail, may Allah bless him with mercy, narrated to me about the saints?" Fatr said: I heard
Abu al-Tufail say: "I heard Ali, Amirul Mo'mineen say that Abdal (the saints) are from the people of
Sham and the noble ones are from the people of Kufa. Allah will rally them together on a day
which will be the worst day for our enemies."
Then Ja'far al-Sadiq (as) said: "May Allah have mercy upon you. With us begins the (severe)
test, and then with you, and with us shall begin the relief and then with you. May Allah bless those
with His mercy who endear us to the people, and do not cause them to detest us."
al-`Amali: http://www.al-islam.org/amali/
(salam)
Darth Vader
Darth Vader
Veteran Member
6,495
8,985 posts
Location: Acroooss the room
Religion: Peace
Report post
This is a great topic. Awliya (saints) and their miracles are undeniable. Ghaus, Abdaal, Qutb,
Qalander are among the various ranks of Awliya. Islam was spread in the Subcontinent by these
saints who travelled here and spread all over the region and did tableegh the purely Islamic way.
The tales of their miracles are too many for me to remember and are well documented in books.
And this is the interesting part. The awliya have always denounced sectarianism and sectarian
labels and they have always passionately denounced the "mullah" type hypocrite Islamic figures
and undermined their authority, for example, in the poetry of Bullah Shah. The mullah is defined
as an ignorant wanabe religious figure who is rude and stubborn, practices what he is taught
without knowing a thing himself, and often a show off or a hypocrite trying to fool people. No
wonder the Salafi would HAVE to attack the saints. First because NO salafi/wahabi to date has
attained sainthood or even close, secondly their religion is devoid of spirituality, hollow and soul-
less-- its as "molvi" as a religion can get, made by mullahs and meant for mullahs. :!!!:
Edited August 8, 2009 by Ibrahim Nakhaee
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
Abdaal said:
Check out this article.
http://www.sufi.co.za/article%20spiritual%...inistration.htm
http://www.deenislam.co.uk/gallery/ummrah/ummrah.htm
inuit
Member
inuit
Advanced Members
1
1,527 posts
Location: Toronto
Report post
^^
The core of the urdu text is "Imams of Ahle bait (AS) forbids Sufism"
post-5458-1249789485_thumb.jpg
Hassan2jz
Report post
Posted August 8, 2009 (edited)
http://www.muslimvillage.com/forums/index....showtopic=52385
Edited August 8, 2009 by Hassan2jz
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
inuit said:
^^
The core of the urdu text is "Imams of Ahle bait (as) forbids Sufism"
post-5458-1249789485_thumb.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ED80F08AAF136ED4
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/irfan.htm
toyibonline
Report post
^^
post-5458-1249789485_thumb.jpg
There are hadiths where the Imams (as) have condemned Shi'as too! Are we then to say that
those hadiths condemn ALL Shi'as of ALL times?
The hadiths about Sufis apparently refer only to the bad Sufis up till Doomsday. The same is true
about the hadiths condemning the bad Shi'as, up till the Day of Resurrection. Therefore, using
those hadiths to condemn ALL Sufis forever is simply unacceptable.
Brother Abdaal:
I understand that in Sufi theology, all the Abdaals, Awtad, Aqtab, etc operate UNDER THE
EXPLICIT COMMAND OF IMAM ALI (as)and the remaining Ahl al-Bayt Imams (as). Please could
you elaborate on this?
Thanks in advance.
Jondab_Azdi
Jondab_Azdi
Advanced Members
37
3,310 posts
Religion: Islam (Imami Shi'a)
Report post
^^
The core of the urdu text is "Imams of Ahle bait (as) forbids Sufism"
post-5458-1249789485_thumb.jpg
^True. Imams of Ahlul bayt (a) and early Imami scholars opposed all kinds of sufis.
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234946988&view=findpost&p=1682867
A very good book discussing batil aqaeds of sufiyah and views of Aimmah(a) and early Imami
scholars regarding sufism:
http://sibtain.com/en/Book_Tuhfa_e_Sufia.aspx
w/s
Edited August 14, 2009 by Jondab_Azdi
toyibonline
Report post
^True. Imams of Ahlul bayt (a) and early Imami scholars opposed all kinds of sufis.
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234946988&view=findpost&p=1682867
A very good book discussing batil aqaeds of sufiyah and views of Aimmah(a) and early Imami
scholars regarding sufism:
http://sibtain.com/en/Book_Tuhfa_e_Sufia.aspx
w/s
The Imams (as) NEVER opposed ALL kinds of Sufis. THAT is an exaggeration. They opposed
ALL KINDS of BAD Sufis, just as they opposed ALL KINDS OF BAD SHI'AS, including BAKRIS.
Show us a single hadith that says ALL KINDS OF SUFIS FOR ALL TIMES are bad!! That's a
challenge!
Jondab_Azdi
Jondab_Azdi
Advanced Members
37
3,310 posts
Religion: Islam (Imami Shi'a)
Report post
^The hadiths posted by bro. macisaac are very clear and it applies to all kinds of sufis. Secondly,
if sufis were any good then our scholars (such as Ayatullah Saafi) wouldn't have prohibit us to
visit at least those gathering of sufism which are arranged to praise Imam Ali (a), Hussain (a) and
others Aimmah (a). But the scholar prohibit us in clear words without any exception i.e to visit
such gathering is haram and bidah.
http://alkadhum.org/other/mktba/sira/aalam_alhedaya12/03.htm
Edited August 14, 2009 by Jondab_Azdi
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
Brother Abdaal:
I understand that in Sufi theology, all the Abdaals, Awtad, Aqtab, etc operate UNDER THE
EXPLICIT COMMAND OF IMAM ALI (as)and the remaining Ahl al-Bayt Imams (as). Please could
you elaborate on this?
Thanks in advance.
Let me discuss the status of the highest saint in sufi Islam. The highest saint in sufism is Abdul
Qadar Al Jillani. He is known as Ghaus Al Azam. According to sufis the twelve Imams(as) and
Ghaus al-azam Shaykh Abdul Qadar Al Jillani are the distributes of wilayah. The had spirtiual
authority each in their time, now is the time of Ghaus al-azam until Imam Mehdi(A) does zahoor.
Now there is a difference and similarity in status of Imamate and Ghausiyat which is the highest
station in spirituality. Both Ghausiyat and Imamate have in common is wilayah but Imamat is
afdhal then Ghausiyat. The 12 Imams gave faiz was given to Ghaus al-azam and not vice versa.
Also, Ghausiyat is top position in ruhaniyah (spirituality) only. Imamate on the other hand has a
superiority in every branch of Islam. This includes fiqh, theology, tasawuuf, sharia etc. On top of
that Imams did not follow in any mujahid Imam but Ghaus al-azam did although he did not need
to. For example Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (as) could have followed the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifa but he
did not. why not?? The reason is because Imamat itself negates taqlid of others....
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234946988&view=findpost&p=1682867
A very good book discussing batil aqaeds of sufiyah and views of Aimmah(a) and early Imami
scholars regarding sufism:
http://sibtain.com/en/Book_Tuhfa_e_Sufia.aspx
w/s
You have to tell me which sufis did the imams oppose ? Can I get some names of the
personalities ? Do sufis follow those sufis which the imams rejected. For example there are 40
different tariqah chains which trace to Imam Ali (as). If you refuse Sufism does this mean you
reject Hasan Al Basri (ra), Ma'ruf Karkhi (ra), Sari Saqati (ra), Junayd al-Baghdadi (ra) ? Also,
what is your opinion on Mulla Sadra ?
toyibonline
Report post
^The hadiths posted by bro. macisaac are very clear and it applies to all kinds of sufis.
Secondly, if sufis were any good then our scholars (such as Ayatullah Saafi) wouldn't have
prohibit us to visit at least those gathering of sufism which are arranged to praise Imam Ali (a),
Hussain (a) and others Aimmah (a). But the scholar prohibit us in clear words without any
exception i.e to visit such gathering is haram and bidah.
:
http://alkadhum.org/other/mktba/sira/aalam_alhedaya12/03.htm
I did not ask for the opinion of some scholars. I asked for the verdicts of the Imams (as), that
declare ALL Sufis, indiscriminately, to be kafirs or whatever. The hadiths brother Macisaac
provided are similar to those condemning Shi'as too. So, we should give similar interpretations to
both!
Quote
Let me discuss the status of the highest saint in sufi Islam. The highest saint in sufism is Abdul
Qadar Al Jillani. He is known as Ghaus Al Azam. According to sufis the twelve Imams(as) and
Ghaus al-azam Shaykh Abdul Qadar Al Jillani are the distributes of wilayah. The had spirtiual
authority each in their time, now is the time of Ghaus al-azam until Imam Mehdi(A) does zahoor.
Now there is a difference and similarity in status of Imamate and Ghausiyat which is the highest
station in spirituality. Both Ghausiyat and Imamate have in common is wilayah but Imamat is
afdhal then Ghausiyat. The 12 Imams gave faiz was given to Ghaus al-azam and not vice versa.
Also, Ghausiyat is top position in ruhaniyah (spirituality) only. Imamate on the other hand has a
superiority in every branch of Islam. This includes fiqh, theology, tasawuuf, sharia etc. On top of
that Imams did not follow in any mujahid Imam but Ghaus al-azam did although he did not need
to. For example Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (as) could have followed the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifa but he
did not. why not?? The reason is because Imamat itself negates taqlid of others....
Thanks for the explanation. But, you did not explain well some of the crucial points. Brother, let
me cite something I read in Tahir Qadri's book, The Ghadir Declaration:
And there is another way close to the spiritual sovereignty and this is the way of the saints and
the general friends of Allh, and this way is marked by its characteristic passion and it carries the
guarantee of mediation and the leader and chieftain of the saints of this way is Al al-Murtad (
) . And this grand office is reserved for him. On this way, the feet of the Holy
Prophet (SAW) are on Als head and Ftimah and Hasan and Husayn ( ) are included
with him. I believe that he enjoyed this position even before his physical birth, as he did after it,
and whosoever has received the divine blessing and guidance, has received it through him,
because he is closest to the last point on this way and the centre of this spot belongs to him. And
when his period ended, the grand office passed on to Hasan and Husayn ( )
and then on to each one of the twelve Imms, individually and elaborately. And whosoever
received guidance in their life and after their death, received it through these saints. And the
refuge and place of shelter of the saints of high ranks are these saints, (because they are the
centre of all spiritual activity) and the sides tend to converge on the centre.
Shaykh Ahmad Sarhand ( ) believes that Imm Mahd (as) will be with Al al-
Murtad (as) in the caravan of sovereignty or spiritual leadership.
http://www.minhajbooks.com/english/control/btext/cid/2/bid/248/btid/758/read/txt/Preface.html
According to the Wahabi website which I cited earlier, and even the Sufi website which you cited,
the Abdaals control the universe. Or, rather, Allah (swt) controls the universe through them.
Normally, the Abdaals are under a captain called Qubt. And as Tahir Qadri says, all these Abdaals
and Aqtab derive their authority from the Twelve Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt (as). However, below is
a citation that shows that these Abdaals and Awtad and Aqtab actually receive their orders from
Imam Ali (as). Mufti Taqi Uthmani, in the commentary of the Quran 3:110 states:
Ali was Qutb al-Irshad and the Lord of Wilayat, never did anyone even from the previous
Ummahs achieve the status of Wilayat without the means of Alis spirit, and then his progeny
remained designated on this post till Imam Hasan Askari..
O Brother! Indeed Imam Ali is the holder of the keys of Wilayah of Prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
and the training regime for the status of Aqtaab, Autaad and Abdaal who are from amongst the
reserved awliyah is done under the shelter of Wilayah. Qutb al-Aqtaab who is the greatest Qutb
and the guide and mentor of others lies under his (Alis) feet. His orders are issued under the
supervision and support of Ali and he performs his duties under the supervision and support of Ali
and fulfills his tasks. Sayydah Fatima and both of her sons, the Imams (Hasan and Hussayn)
share this rank with Ali [as].
Maktubaat Imam Rabbani, Volume 1, page 438 Letter 251
I hope you get my point now. Please could you provide more elaboration, as this concerns the
very meaning of Wilayat Ali!
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
I hope you get my point now. Please could you provide more elaboration, as this concerns the
very meaning of Wilayat Ali!
Sorry I need to be authorized person to do an exegesis of what the sufis declare. Unfortunately, I
don't have any resources in English and I am not authorized to explain the stations of
personalities. However, I will say that the 12 imams are the main spiritual axis poles for the
Ummah as Tahir Ul Qadri explained. Even that last reply I gave you was copied and pasted from
a brother who was knowledgeable. When Imam Mahdi (as) comes he is going to rule the world
under his imamate. This means all schools of thought will expire and his school of thought will be
the only school of thought will Muslims will have to follow. Sometimes you have to be careful with
which sufi you follow. Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi aka Ghobar Shahi was an excellent sufi at one
time. Then he become so extreme that he went against Sharia and declared himself to be the
Mahdi.
Quote
Jazakallah! I will try to update it every week. The next topics will be on how Tabarra(character
assassination)started and one Nisabis and Nusayrees. I've got some excellent youtube clips from
both shia and sunnis scholars which expose the extreme in the madhabs.
haideriam
Report post
(salam)
bro abdal
does it look like westbourne grove/notting hill in london, small mosque on first floor
(wasalam)
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
He is Syed Ninowy. He is first name is Muhammad and he is the son of As-Sayyed Yahya son of
As-Sayyed Muhammad son of As-Sayyed Said son of As-Sayyed Muhammad son of As-Sayyed
Ali Al-Ninowy, whos family descends from the southern Iraqi village of Ninowa, the place where
Al-Imam Al-Husayn was martyred, a partial area of which is also known as Karbala. Shaykh
Muhammads 33rd grandfather is The known blind pious scholar, the flag bearer of Ahlus Sunnah
of his time, Al-imam Ibrahim Al-Mujab, (the first one of the family of the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi
wa aalihi wa sallam, to migrate to Ninowa and established an Islamic University system). Al-Imam
Ibrahim Al Mujab is the son of Al-Imam Muhammad Al-Aabed, son of Al Imam Musa Al Kathem,
son of Al Imam Jafar As-Saadeq, son of Al Imam Muhammad Al-Baqer, son of Al-Imam
ZaynulAbideen Ali,son of the Martyred Imam sayyidina Al-Husayn As-sibt, son of Maulana Al-
Imam Ameer Al-Mumineen Ali bin Abi Taleb and the Lady Fatima Azzahra, daughter of the Best
of the creation Sayyidina Muhammad bin Abdillah bin Abdil-Muttaleb bin Hashem from the tribe of
Quraysh, sallallahu alayhi wa ala aalihi wa sallam.
http://www.almadinamasjid.org/Publication1_files/page0003.htm
haideriam
Report post
Posted August 15, 2009
(bismillah)
(salam)
the guy i had met was not a sheikh but with enough study could become one.
was salam
Abu Tufayl
Member
Abu Tufayl
Veteran Member
2,579
3,601 posts
Report post
He is Syed Ninowy. He is first name is Muhammad and he is the son of As-Sayyed Yahya son
of As-Sayyed Muhammad son of As-Sayyed Said son of As-Sayyed Muhammad son of As-
Sayyed Ali Al-Ninowy, whos family descends from the southern Iraqi village of Ninowa, the place
where Al-Imam Al-Husayn was martyred, a partial area of which is also known as Karbala.
Shaykh Muhammads 33rd grandfather is The known blind pious scholar, the flag bearer of Ahlus
Sunnah of his time, Al-imam Ibrahim Al-Mujab, (the first one of the family of the Prophet,
sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam, to migrate to Ninowa and established an Islamic University
system). Al-Imam Ibrahim Al Mujab is the son of Al-Imam Muhammad Al-Aabed, son of Al Imam
Musa Al Kathem, son of Al Imam Jafar As-Saadeq, son of Al Imam Muhammad Al-Baqer, son of
Al-Imam ZaynulAbideen Ali,son of the Martyred Imam sayyidina Al-Husayn As-sibt, son of
Maulana Al-Imam Ameer Al-Mumineen Ali bin Abi Taleb and the Lady Fatima Azzahra, daughter
of the Best of the creation Sayyidina Muhammad bin Abdillah bin Abdil-Muttaleb bin Hashem from
the tribe of Quraysh, sallallahu alayhi wa ala aalihi wa sallam.
http://www.almadinamasjid.org/Publication1_files/page0003.htm
(bismillah)
:wacko: You could have just said he was a Musawi Sayyid instead of the needlessly dramatic list
(even though I like seeing the 'Aimmah's names in a lineage chain lol).
(salam)
Abdaal
Member
Abdaal
Banned
2
4,007 posts
Report post
(bismillah)
:wacko: You could have just said he was a Musawi Sayyid instead of the needlessly dramatic
list (even though I like seeing the 'Aimmah's names in a lineage chain lol).
(salam)
Sorry I forgot I was on shia chat. For sunnis usually you have to give the whole chain.
carlos
Member
carlos
Advanced Members
17
477 posts
Location: UK
Report post
Sorry I forgot I was on shia chat. For sunnis usually you have to give the whole chain.
Its good to post whole chains ;) Anyway Sheikh Ninowy is definitely a mohib of Ahlulbayt! May he
continue on his path and us too!