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HEARI NGS

COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS

UNITED STATES SENATE

W6Wu.%V. C.
July 16p 1954

IR 9533
S 3612

Telephones:
AWDISON RWPORIN COMARY NA 8-3406
Ninth S
30Was ,
N. ., 8-3407
Wuspraglost 4. D, C.r~ B-3408
8-3409

~~~'~at~2;i~"~'-~i~i4Ba~h~-~a~
 I
TAB LE OF C O N T F N T S

Subcommittee on the Committee

on Interior & Insultr

July 16, 1954

Iqw

Statnnent of;

Mrs. Josephine EelLy

.im Redfishb 60

Pete;' Looktnghorse 67

Mrs Hf6iry Ai'.e 86

Edward Loone 89

--- 00)-----

a f

Ir rFD
 53

n HR 9533 - S. 3612

ACQUISITION OF LANDS FOR THE RESERVOIR

TO BE CREATED BY THE CONSTRUCTION OF OAHE
DAM, AND REHABILITATION OF INDIANS.

FRIDAY, July 16, 1954

United States Senate,

House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the Committee

on Interior and Insular Affairs
of tLc United States Senate;

Subcoiu.iittee of the Committee

on Interior and Insular Affairs
of the Hoise of Representatives

Washington, D. C,

The subcommittee met at 2:30 o'clock p.m., pursuant to

recess, in room 1324, New House Office Building, Honorable

E. Y, Berry, presiding.

Present: Represontative .~rrry.

Also Present: Albcrt A. Grorud, embL r of the pro-

fessional staff of the Senate Committee on Interior ard

Insular Affairs; George Abbott. com'c.i:;trtce counsel; John Jex,

administrative assistant to SornAtar Arthur V. Watkins.

Representative Berry. The Joi,t Indian A:: Com-

9 mittee will come to order for the( further consideration of

S.3612 and HR 9533

At the time of rccesein, ye:.:-t.'dy the committee was

taking the testimony of hMr':. Jos.eph },:: hllly of Standing

I HB
^nia**IsiB^ SB8fi3^ ^
N10ll ZM

I
I I
Ill L I
54
i
Rock Reservation.

Mrs. Kelly, will you take the witness stand again,

please.

W@f You testified yesterday afternoon that because of the

fact that you had just gotten in, that yu had not had an

opportunity to talk with the rc.nt of the members of you.

delegation as to what you proposed to do, what you proposed

as an alternative to the propr-o~ made by the tribal council.

Have you had a chance to s;o over this with the other

members of your delegation?

STATEMENT OF ;.iRS. JO' EPHiNE KELLY, FORT

YATES, NORTH DAKOrA, - Resumed.

SMrs. Kelly. We just contacted Mr. Redfish. He just

came.

M.rs. Anl te is hero.

I want thermi c! to testify.. I :cadcr.y speech yesterday.

I think we should be alloirwed to talk.

Mr. Redfish. .rs. Anhle, and Petor Lookinghorse. I would.

rather you gave theoa a chance to testify.

Representative Bor)ry. fThey will be :,ivon an opportunity.

Do you have anything,, to add further than what you

Testified yesterday?

Mrs. Kelly. I do not tii ;, s;o.

Representative lerx-y. Arvc th- anyv questiolt : that

any memnhors of the co;iiit c, .. o~l?.d . i-:o to ;;k?

I II mm1 I I
 55

Mr. Abbott. I did not have an opportunity to hear

all the testimony given yesterday, but in looking over the

transcript of your statement, Mrs. Kelly, there were a couple

of questions which I should like to ask you so that we might

have a complete record on some of the points you raised.

You were formerly chairman of the tribal council; is

that correct?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. When did you first start in that capacity?

Mrs. Kelly. It was 1947, I think it was.

Mr. Abbott. You continued, I believe, from your testi-

mony yesterday, until 1951?

Mrs. Kelly. 1951.

Mr. Abbott. What mongh o the year was it? Do you knoj

Mrs. Kelly. October 1951. That is when they had their

election.

Mr. Abbott. Calling your attention to Public Law 870 o:

the Eighty-First Congress, do you understand, of course, that

was the Congressional authorization for negotiations and

ratifications of the separ-ate settlement contract; is that

true?

SMrs. Kelly. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. I call your attention to section 5(a) of

Public Law 870, which provides as follows:

"Tho contracts negotiated and approved purs;uant

" I | ' I
 i I
56

to this act shall be submitted to the Congress

within eighteinA months from and after the date of

enactment of thi? act."

Al
v Are you familiar with that provision?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes, I am familiar, but you know in

Standing Rock we were delayed several months due to the fact

that our lawyer wa-n not approved at that time. We had quite

a time getting the lawyer that we wanted and they delayed us

several months.

Therefore, we could not do any kind of business in

regards to the negotiations or anything else.

Mr. Abbott. Nbw, Public Law 870 was approved by the

) President on September 30, 1950.

Mrs. Kelly. Yes.

SMr. Abbott. And you were the chairman of the tribal

council at that time?

Mrs. Kelly. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. There then followed a period of twelve or

thirteen months until October 1951 during which you were the

chairman of the tribal council?

Mrs. Kelly. Yos.

Mr. Abbott. Could you state at this time what was done

by the tribal council during that period?

Mrs.Kelly. We did not do a thing about it because we

never had a lawyer appointed until, I think it was in May 195:1

H' I -
 M a 57

or, Mr. Berry, wasn't that the time when we were here with

our delegation?

Representative Berry. I would not rernember.

W
Mrs. Kelly. I think it was in May 1951.

Mr. Abbott. In any case, Mrs. Kelly, during that

eleven-month period are you saying you had not made substan-

tial progress in the directioncf compliance?

Mrs. Kelly. We had no lawyer.

Mr. Abbott. Do you recall at the time HR 5372 was dis-

cussed, which eventually became Public Law 870, there was

some discussion as to whether or not the eighteen-month period

would be satisfactory or agreeable?

t Mrs. Kelly. I donvt recall that.

Mr. Abbott. Is it probable that the records suggest

that it was primarily at the urging and at ;.he insistence

perhaps of the Indians affected that that period be held down

to as short a period as possible?

Mrs. Kelly. Repeat that again, please.

Mr. Abbott. Is it not possible, or probable, that the

record shows that that eighteen-month period was Inserted in

there primarily at the insistence, or at the request of the

I Indians and was responsive to the request of the Indians?

Mrs. Kelly. I don't think that was the request of the

Indians. Maybe the Indian Bureau made that request.

Mr. Abbott. But the very nature of the subject under

1 Ij I i j9111S B "
 I
58

would have perhaps impelled the individuals affected to have

as short a period as possible so that they might go forward

with settlement.

- I simply thought, Mr. Chairman, that in yiew of the

apparent conflicts of opinion on this that it was relevant

to show that this witness, particularly, was peculiarly, per-

haps, in a position to get off the ground the action that would,

respond to Public Law 370 or permit initiating that action.

She states, of course, that they did not have an attorne,

at that time.

I believe that is a11 I have on that point.

Thank you.

Representative Berry. In other words, Mrs. Kelly, no

action was taken actually while you were chairman of the

tribal council in regard to this settlement?

Mrs. Kelly. We had just one meeting and that was -- I

do; 't remember what date that was --

Representative Ber'y. You oid not meet with the Army

Engineers?

Mrs. Kolly. They came up and we had a big general

council, but that was the first one and, of course, I waa not

*P used to having such big eetings and so forth, but the

Indians at that meeting were allowed to express thei- views

and so forth.

Every Indian tha.t . nt'ed to t;rlk wan allowed to express

vj~ersp~~o
 59

their views. I have never seen the minutes of that. The

Indian Bureau was there with all their machinery and apparatus

_ and they took down records, but I have never seen those records.

But we never had an attorney until, I think it was May

-- yes, May 1951.

Representative Berry. Did your attorney do anything,

or did he work out a contract with the Army?

Mrs. Kelly, I don't think so. I donut think he did.

That was all Indian Bureau's work.

Of course, they take it out to the council and go over

it with them.

Representative Berry. You did have an attorney, did you

not?

Mrs. Kelly. After we had the contract finally approved

you were the one that sent a telegram, you remember, to the

commissioner. I remember that because you sent a telegram

to the commissioner telling him to approve of our attorney's

contract.

Representative Berry. But he did not make a contract

with the Army Engineers on this at all?

Mrs. Kelly, I don't think so.

SRepresentative Berry. Who do you want to call next?

Mrs. Kelly. Mr. Jim Redfish is here. He is vice-

chairman of the general council of Standing Rock Indian

Reservation.

mmmmm m7777 __
 I I I 1 6 I. I

60

Representative Berry. Jim, would you come up hare and

have a chair.

Mrs. Kelly. Thank you for calling me again.

Representative Berry. You may remain there, Mrs. Kelly.

Your name is Jim Redfish?

STATEMENT OF JIM REDFISH, VICE-CHAIRMAN,

GLEnAL COtNCIL , STADIAG RCK RESERVATION.

Mr. Redfish. Yes, sir.

Representative Berry. You live in Bullhead, South

Dakota?

Mr. Redfish. Yes, sir.

Representative Berry. Standing Rock Reservation?

SMr. Redfish. Yes, sir.

Representative Berry. Do you have a statement, Mr.

Redfish? You may proceed with your statement.

Mr. Redfish. I live in the Bullhead District, The people

of Bullhead District don't want this bill, IR 9533. The way th

people understand it is a long-range program for the Indian

Bureau because we were under the programs tLe Indian Bureau was

operating on for twenty years and never get nowhere; they are

still in debt.

* That is the reason why we i.on't want that fourteen

million dollars to be in thero.

Representative Berry. What do you wart, Jim? What is

your thinking on that?

l I mmalmoma I
 -~ ii - d~i

61

Mr. Redfish. One thing, we dor't want any more

debt like we are now today. The people that own the land

are the ones that donut want it and people don't want it

extended, the Indian Bureau.

Representative Berry. Do you feel that what you should

do is to take the money offered by the Army Engineers and

divide it up in a per capita payment and that is all?

Mr. Redfish. Yes.

Representative Berry. Youthink you would be better off

that way?

Mr. Redfish. Better off. I havo a witness here sitti.

right back here, Mr. Spencer. I have been supporting myself

'e pretty nearly all my life, and you know it, yourself. I did

not go old age. I am seventy-two years old up to today, no'.

I have been farming. I have been in the military for twelve

years. I am a farmer. I have been farming 416 acres.

If the Indian Bureau gives us the chance we might get

somewhere, but there are too many regulations, they have tied

us up.

I was lucky to got my money from the oil company in

Montant; that is where I got my start. I wish every Indian

had a chance like I had.

That is all I want to say on that. That is the rea;cr __

why tne people don't want this.

Representative Bory. Thank you, Mr. Redfish.

_~~~~~ I~l~wA"u
IPp IBmo~ell~rei~~a~osoir
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 62

Mr. Redfish. Here is one letter that Mr. Spencer wrote

to Mrs. Kelly. lore is another petition here. I want this

to be in the record, and also this letter that Spencer wroto

r to Josephine Kelly.

I want that to be in the record.

Representative Berry. Without objection, the memorial

will be made a part of the files, as well as tbc letter from

Superintendent Spencer to Josephine Kelly, under date of

February 25, 1954.

(The documents referred to are as follow:)

Af1'
 Representative Berry. Are there any questions?

Mr. Abbott. I have one or two questions, Mr. Chairman.

AA Mr. Redfish, you state that you do not want any more

debt; is that right?

Mr. Redfish. Yes,

Mr. Abbott. Could you enlarge on that just a little

bit? What do you mean when you say that?

Mr. Redfish. Like I was down. at Pierre about three

weeks ago, and the state was willing to loan out money to N:M.

Indian so they have them on their feet, but the Indian Bureau

-do not want that because if anybody start on that, you know

O where the Indian is going to be.

If the Indian wure turned loose to borrow money from

the states, we might r:et somewhere.

What you are saying, M r. Redfish, is that

Mr. Abbott.

if the bill contemplates or would provide for loans, you do nc

want that?

Ir Mr. Redfish. I do not want that.

Mr. Abbott. Perhaps you can be satisfied on that point.

What other specific objection do you have?

Mr. Redfish. ThiL long-range program, that don't do u,

any good.

Mr. Abbott. You recc*ll the allotment period of course.

when you had allotments made. Would you want to return to

that?

1 iri ii ~-p I
 i .1 I I
64

Mr. Redfioh. No, I do not say that.

Mr. Abbott. And since 1934, during the twenty-year

period, you had the Wheeler-Howard Act, where you incorporate'

and you operate through a tribal corporation, or through your

tribal council. You say that is not satisfactory?

Mr. Redfish. I was chairman at that time.

Now, here is one thing: there is another thing that

is for benefit of the Indian Bureau. I would like to see

anybody get on his feet today since that.

There are only 224 cattle operators on the reservation.

You can ask Mr. Spencer there. Most of them are on the black

list.

Mr. Abbott. You are not too happy with the way the Indi..

Bureau has operated, then?

Mr. Redfish. I don't want any more of that,

Mr. Abbott. One other question.

You were a candidate in the tribal election in Novomber

of 19533

Mr. Redfish. No, that is my boy.

Mr. Abbott. But when you sp:,ak for those people you

say that you are speaking for the Bullhead District. Do you

feol that you speak for all 110 people who voted in that

election from the Bullhead District? There were 110 people

that voted.

Mr. Redfish. It was my boy, not me.

I I
 I i
65

Mr. Abbott. I understand that, sir, but are you repre-

senting the people of the Bullhead District?

Mr. Redfish. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. You are speaking for the people of the Bul:

head District?

Mr. Redfish. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. Do yoi, think you are speaking for the

thirty-seven people who voted for Mr Blackhoop in that

election?

Mr. Redfish. He fooled them. He said they were going t,

get a per capita payment.

Mr. Abbott. You understand that the committee has to tr,

to listen to a majority of the people and, of course, they al'

listen to what a minority of the people say. But you

elect your representatives so that they can speak for you.

You are here today to say that you speak for the Bullhead

District?

Mr. Redlish. Ye ;.

Mr. Abbott. Now, the 110 people who voted for the

chairman, thirty-seven voted for Mr. Blackhoop, ten for Mr.

Sherwood, and twenty lor Mrs. Kelly in the Bullhead District.

Would you say at this time that you speak for the thirty,

seven people who voted for Mr. Diackhoop?

Mr. R1odfish. Thoy are all agaalst now.

Mrs. Kelly. He says they are all against Mr. Blackboop

^^- M-
- -- ^-llm llr~rllnilliiiil-- -*-- --- sill l u rl .. I llli I .. .1r i...
-~~-.11 .- .. 1 1. -i -1... .1.11111.
,. 1 - -~- -- .t- -

I I I
 66

now due to the fact that he promised them a per capita pay-

ment.

Mr. Abbott. But you would admit that the representatives

. who come back as the tribal representatives are the elected

spokesmen for the tribe and it is a little difficult at times

to say why people did vote for an individual when a particular

issue comes up.

I think that is all I have of Mr. Redfish.

Representative Berry. I would say this for the benefit

of the record: I have known Mr. Redfish for a good many years.

He bears a very high reputation in the community, not only

in Bullhead,but on the Standing Rock Reservation generally.

* Mr. Rodfish has been a successful operator himself and his

testimony should bear a groat deal of consideration.

Thank you very much, Jim.

Mr. Redfish. Thank you.

Representative Berry. Who do you want next, Mrs. Kally?

Mr. Redfish. There is one question I want to aek you,

Mr. Boiry. I guess somebody told you that at one time

Joeephinu Kelly was down at Bullhead District and had been

talking about you. I would like to find out who told you that.

(Discussion off the record)

Representative Berry. Who do you want next, Mrs. Kelly?

Mrs. Kolly. Peter Lookinghorse.

Representative Berry. Will you state yourname, for the

record?

STATEMENT OF PETER LOOKINGHORSE,

BISMARCK, NORTH DAKOTA.

Mr. Lookinghorse. Peter Lookinghorse.

Representative Berry. Whore do you live?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Bismarck, North Dakota.

Representative Berry. You are a member of the Standing

Rock Tribe of Indians?

Mr. Lookinghorse. That is right; yes, air.

Representative Berry. And formerly were reared on the

Standing Rock Reservation?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Pardon?

Representative Berry. You were raised on Standing Rock

Reservation?

Mr. Lookinghorse. That is right.

Representative Berry. Where were you raised?

Mr. Lookiughorso. At Little Eagle.

Representative Berry. Now, you have a statement that

you wish to make in opposition to this bill. Will you go

ahead, Pete?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Will, to start off with, I am strict,

against this rehabilitation proLgram that Mr. Blackhoop has

brought up and also the bill.

I have moved off the ro3ervatio, in 1940 and made my

home in Bismarck, North Dakota, and I thin it is time for a

 68

change.

I have a group of thirty families in Bismarck in Mandan,

and happen to be the vice-chairman of that organization. The

, people of my district want to go on to the State of North

Dakota with federal reimbursement.

Representative Berry. What did you say?

Mr. Lookinvhorse. We want to go under the State of

North Dakota with federal reimbursements.

Representative Berry. flow do you mean, with federal

reimbursement?

Mr. Lookinghorse. I tell you, I went to school in

Flandroan, South Dakota. When I finished the eighth gradt

S-- that sas as high as I went - I came home and tried to go

off to school. Well, my father did not have the fund for me

to go to school. I was a good athlete and I wanted to go.

Then Mr. E. D. Mossman, superintendent of Standing Rock

Reservation, told me, "Pete, you have finished the eighth

grade and you are a graduate. You don't need any more school.

Your father is sickly," so he said, "You stay on the ranch

and help."

So that is the highest education I have and if I may not

or my expressions may not be right, I

i pronounce my words right,
ask you to have me repeat it.

Now, we want to go under the State supervision with

federal reimbursement. As near as I can translate that is:

, ii i- -- .
-- ifct
a i -- MmIwIC I-m mw .-^ *- nwl- n u I n| i ini **nAb M

viimasf f !
 69

Here is the Indian Bureau taking care of our situation.

Let us put it aside and let the state taL; over next.

Representative Berry. What I meant was, what do you

mean by federal reimbursement? Reimbursement for what, ete?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Well, I think the money that is used

in running the Indian Office in Fort Yates, o.- Indian Bureau,

what I meant, let the state take over the funds and run it

next.

Representative Berry. Do you mean the court of law

enforcement and so forth being paid by the f'edral government

to the states? Is that what you had in mind?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Vhat I had in mind is -- well, here

is the program on the Standing Rock Reservation. We will take

the federal jurisdiction off and lot the state handle it.

That is as near as I can explain it.

Representative Be)rry. Would you be in favor of Congress

approving a bill to pay the Standii.g Rock Tribe for the value

of the land and then in turn that amount being paid out in

a per capita payment and that would be all you would get?

Mr. Lookinghorso. W;ell, I an in favor of per capita

payment. In my line or bu -inc:-.s it ,rill help ne. I don't know

about the others, out I know it will help m.*.

In fact, I am from the Cannonball Disirict on the

Standing Rock Reservation and I applied for a loan one time.

The local councilion at ConnonLbull was Paul tHad Dog and

 u J ,
70

Blackhoop, I think -- not Frank here, but Tom Blackhoop, his

brother.

They said I could not have a loan because I had been

off the reservation too long and I was not entitled to it.

So I go on to state side and ask for help and the

state says, "No, you are with the government. There are

such funds employed for that purpose. Go down and get it

through the Indian Office at Fort Yates."

Mr. Abbott. Do you fool that if the state then were

managing the affairs with some assistance from federal funds

that you would have a better opportunity to get that loan to

which you refer?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Yos. Right now, I don't know .f I am

with the Indian Department or I an with tho state. In fact,

1 am in between because I was turned down in both departments.

Mr. Abbott. Your position is that you do not want thest

funds to go to a rehabilitation program; in that a correct

statement?

Mr. Lookinghcrse. That is right.

Mr. Abbott. Are you familiar with the Navajo rohabilita-

tion program?

Mr. Lookinghor;e. No.

Mr. Abbott. Confrcss appropriated or authorized

appropriating eighty-eight 'illion dollars over a ten-year perj

and some throe and a half years of that eirhty-eight million

lUNIONS
 I I
71

million dollar program, something in the neighborhood of

thirty million dollars, has been spent to help the Navajo

Indians.

Among other things, some three thousand families have

been able to move off the reservation, many of them young GIS

who wanted to, and to take up jobs in cities where they earn

good pay, they don ' t have to, as they told us, put up with the

Indian Bureau, and they are quite happy where they are.

On the reservation they have a greatly improved school

system, hospital facilities, roads to let them come into the

agency and to go to the various places on the reservation, and

the whole picture of the Navajo for some seventy thousand India,;

<
has greatly changed.

Would you want to deny the people who have remained on

the reservation an opportunity to enjoy some of the same improve -

monts under a rehabilitation program?

Mr. Lookinghorse. I would approve of it if the rehabili-

taion program on the reservation is run in the right way

instead of picking certain ones to use it.

I would say a father or uncle or grandad or probably

a brother working for the Civil Service in that office, his

Nephew, so. or grandson, would have the privilege of taking it.

Mr. Abbott. Then you are a little concerned about the

possiblity that tribal politics or what you would call

bureau politics will not lot tho program work. Is that what

I ' I I
 I I I I
72

you are really saying?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Repeat that, please,

Mr. Abbott. You might not be gainst the rehabilitation

program, as such, but you might object to the same people

who have been running it running it in the future; is that

right?

Mr. Lookinghorse. That is what I mean.

Mr. Abbott. There, again, you arrive at the point

where if you do not like the rascals you vote to throw the

rascals out. Do you not feel that is true?

Mr. Lookinghorse. That has been going on for thelast

one hundred years, I guess. That is why I say a change will

be a good idea.

Mr. Jex. Mr. Lookinghorse, recently we passed two

rehabilitation bill for what are known as Mountain Ute and

Southern Ute Tribes in Colorado. That was a distribution of

moneys which wore then in the Treasury to the credit of the

Ute Indians and was set up on a rehabilitation program basis

whereby a certain amount designated in round figures was

deposited to the individual credit of a designated Indian, or

to a family unit.

Under the restriction that the individual Indian had they

had to come into an advisory committee consisting of both

Indians and non-Indians surrounding their reservation who

would advise them on the soundness, the financial feasibility

 S I I I I
73

of their rehabilitation program.

Now, under that system each indian had set a part for

him one thousand dollars in a per capita payment and three

W thousand dollars to his credit in the tribal fund. That could

not be used by any other Indian.

But before that Indian could use it he had to prove

that the purpose for *ich he designed that use wore sound and

showed good faith in the use of that money.

Now, under that type of program, would you favor a

rehabilitation program for the members of the Standing Rock

Tribe?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Yes, in that case if it covers the non-

resident Indian.

Mr. Jex. In the event of the two tribes I mentioned,

there was no designation as to residency, the off-reservation

and on-reservation Indians shared equally.

Now, their situation is a little bit different than

yours in this one respect: those tribes were being compensated

at1 that time for lands which were taken from them fifty

years previous, or one hundred years previous, and it was

sitting in the Treasury benefiting no one. Each Indian there

had an equal share in that fund.

Your circumstances on Standing Rock as I now understand

it are that you are being compensated for direct and indirect

damages for the taking area and Congress is also recognizing

 I I . I I
74

the need to rehabilitate not only the Indians who are dis-

placed, but also the tribal organization which is going to

have to rearrange itself in order to survive on the remainder

of your reservation.

So that what we are distributing here, if this bill is

authorized, is not funds which you are entitled to as a result

of an unlawful taking of land, but it is the authorization of

funds to rehabilitate the members of tbhtribe who have not at

this time been able to establish themselves.

So that there may be recognized a difference between the

needs of the off-reservation Indians and the on-reservation

Indians.

Would you be in favor of a program which would allow

both of you to benefit, would allow some benefit in addition

to be granted to those members on the reservation who were

being displaced by this taking? Maybe that is a large lump to

swallow at once. I appreciate that, but I am just trying to

develop the thought here.

Mr. Lookinghorse. Well, what I want to know is, I am

off the reservation and I don-t think I will over go back to

the reservation.

Mr. Jex. I agree you should not be penalized because

you have had the initiative to leave the reservation.

Mr. Lookinghorse. It sounded yesterday where Mr. Gipp

to
outlined consolidated area where he was going/buy out the deeds
 75

and also the heirship land, when that is taken out I suppose

we will be all restricted to where I can't get in from the

outside and the others cantt get out, either.

Mr. Jex. Well, he testified as to what is advisable

from his point of view. The best thing we are trying to do

is to get from you what you think is an equitable plan, then ti~'r,

it back in the laps of Congress to rationalize the difference.

Mr. Lookinghorse. You know, I am a little new on this,

in fact,this is the first time I have ever been up in a hearin,

in Washington.

Mr. Jex. You are a good witness. You should be compli-

mented.

Mr. Lookinghorse. I would be in favor of rehabilitation

only if this long-range program is going to extent forty or

fifty years, why I would just as well be against it entirely.

As I say, I would sooner be under the Btate of North

Dakota. After all, four-fifths of the Indians on the Standing

Rock Reservation on the North Dakota side are helped by the

welfare of North Dakota and one-fifth of the able bodied men,

and that is me, in the last ton or twelve years there is money

there for me if I needed help, which I have not seen a cent of

it.

Now, the Indians are getting welfare help from the State

of North Dakota. If a change is made here there won't be

any difference at all because they are getting help from the
 76

State of Northbakota anyway.

Mr. Jex. You know my good friend, Mr. John Hart?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Yes, I know him well.

Mr. Jex. You speak similarly. I thought you knew him.

Mr. Lookioghorse. And I have been off the reservation

since the fall of 1940.

Mr. Jex. I did not mean that as a slander to you. I

respect Mr. Hart. We just differ on our ways of accomplish-

ing the same objective.

Mr, Lookinghorse. What I was going to bring up is

that the Indian Department, or Indian Office, is at Fort Yates

supposed to show us how to go out and be self-supporting

Indians. I was not told, but I went out and been out of

the reservation since the fall of 1940 up until now, but I have

not gotten onc credit froM the tribal council chairman or the

superintendent.

And I have a couple boys going to high school. One of the

will be through this year. The wages I am making in Bismarck,

I am a skilled mechanic, pulling around three to four hundrd

dollars a month, but the slow months of January, February and

March and half of April take my savings. I have to support

my both boys with decent clothes and send them to high school.

Now, the other one, when ho gets through, wants to go

to Teachers College, which will be in Minot, or probably in

Dickinson, and he will be away fro.A ho:o. I would say that I

 77

would not have the money to back my boy up.

Mr. Jet. First of all, the rehabilitation program,

as I understand it, provides a method for helping those Indianr,

who are still on the reservation who have not found it within

their means to become economically self-supporting, to get

some inducement here to get on their feet.

Now, as I get your objection, it is that the rohabilit:--

tion program will be restricted to those who will remain on

the reservation, the nonreservation Indians will be excluded

IF
from that.

Now, if the provisions of this bill provided that the

nonresorvation Indian would be able to participate in the

oducathmal loan program, which is set up, and the other

benefits on the same basis of qualification and need which the

other Indians have to qualify on, would you then be in favor

of it?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Yes, I would be then, for it only, I

think the tribe owot $250 thousand in cash. All right, if

we go under this rehabilitation again we are going to be still

that much in deeper.

Mr. Jex. This twelve million dollars is not a loan to

JB
the tribe.

Mr. Lookinghorse. 1 am in favor of fourteen :ill.on

dollars Ithink you were talking about. It is new to me, but

I am in favor of paying off to the government $250 thousand

Z-7 ~o~~llr~~ar~rrr~avl
.ain r mmr

r- pmF I I
 78

and then if we are going to start rehabilitation or we are

going to accept a program, why, I am for it.

Mr. Jex. The fourteen million dollar program, as i

understand it, would, in effect, provide the funds,first, for

the cancellation of the two hundred-some-odd dollars which

the tribe owes the government and the balance will go to the

rehabilitation program.

The first thing it would do io to release your liability

to the federal government as a member of the tribe by taking

a part of the money which is paid in the rehabilitation

program and paying it back to the Treasury and cancelling

that up.

The balance of this fourteen million dollars is not a loan.

that is an authorization for appropriation of fourteen million

dollars out of the federal treasury.

Mr. Abbott. Mr. Lookinghorse, on one point, the Indian

Affairs Subommittee only thiu morning reported HR 2233 involv-

ing a. very similar question with respect to the Cheyeune River

Sioux. It provides generally for a six and a half million

dollar, or a six million dollar, so-called rehabilitation

program. It would permit setting up certa people in cattle

operations, that is, grazing, ranching operations; a number

of families in a farm program, a considerably lesser number of

families ii the fa,.m program, and th :iunds are specifically

on rmtrktd fo,r tha;.

IIs
 i I U ,I
79

One item was originally labeled industrial assistance

and that is actually an off-reservation rehabilitation item.

_a That would mean that people living off the reservation

who now have substandard or below standard housing could have

advanced to them funds to improve their housing, or to enable

them to take an arts or a crafts course that would give them

technical training, perhaps as a mechanic as you happen to be.

In addition, it was originally contemplated that there,

would be an education loan program. The consensus of

opinion of the members -- of Course, that is not the full

committee -- who participated, was that the education programs

not be on a loan basis.

The history of the hundreds of thousands of GI loans or

GI educatbn grants, I should say, has proven that it is a

pretty good investment in our future citizenship and they are

not loans.

The payment is made as an investment in good citizenship

in the future.

As the Oahe Dam bill for the Cheyennes is set up, it woul.:

permit grants to persons qualifying for education, It should

be made very clear to you that this rehabilitation is not a

Sloan program.

The Congress has recognized -- and the members of thi

Indian Affairs Subcommittee, fourteen of them represent over

250 thousand indians, ro-s;rvation Indians most of them, in the

.--.1..".."o
-1 ,
,I I
80

twenty-eight Indian states -- and the figures supplied over

the years show that not more than sixty percent of the indian

population presently on reservations could be supported with

a reasonable livelihood under optimum conditions, under the

best possible conditions on that reservation.

So that your rehabilitation is really that and it

would hardly run fifty years. When you think of fifty years

you were possibly thinking of your life span. Youwant to be

around when this program is wound up. But you would

appreciate that you must start with some of your very young

children and carry them through and you must take care of your

older people so that they are taken care of in their later

years.

You perhaps have learned a little more about what that

program is since you have arrived in Washington. Is not that

true? Does it look a little better to you than you did before,

if you could just throw those rascals out?

Mr. Lookinghorse. I still would read the bill over and

probably consult with my attorney in Bismarck and go through

it, then if I am in favor of the bill -- but offhand I can't

say.

Mr. Abbott. This morning the subcommittee reported

four bills which probably reflected the thinking in Congress

which involved our Indians in Oregon. The two diffreat tribes

there and in Texas and in Utah, some seven thousand Indians in

 81

all. That is small against the large total.

Within four years for all of those Indians federal super-

A vision will have been terminated. They will no longer have

w
anything to do with the Indian Bureau and a great majority

of the members of all of those tribes wanted termination.

They will be blessed with many of the things that non-Indians

are now blessed with, including taxation, when the program

becomes effective.

But it is a landmark step for another four thousand

Indianr. on the Cheyenne River. If the subcommittees bill is

adopted, there will be another four thousand 1ndians who will

certainly start down the road to where they can have all

these restrictions removed, at the same time assume the

responsibility that non-Indians have.

Mr. Lookinghorse. W1l, almost before your ancestors in

this country, we are independent; self-supporting; we had

everything. We never knew what hard times were and so forth.

We lived happily.

Now, under the Indian Bureau it is all nothing but rules

and regulations. That is all it is. You go in our Indian

Office, all rules and regulations. "I canOt do a thing. I

Shave to abide by rules and regulations."

You brought up the Navajos and other tribes. You know

every Indian tribe is different, but we are all put under one

policy. The Navajos are different from the Siouxs and the

I -
 N I .1
82

Klamath are different from us, and so forth. Every tribe is

different from the other, I know that.

I met a little Navajo woman, she was a very highly

educated Navajo.woman. Her name was Mrs. Lilly Heal. I know

she will not object to my repeating what she told me. She

said:

"Did Dillon Myers come up to your reservation?"

I said, yes.

She said, "What did they do?"

"We didn't do anything. We just tried to get a look at

him and talk to him, if we could."

"You know what they did down to the Navajo Reservation

0 when they heard Dillon Myers was coming? They got all the

road machinery, cleared all the roads he was going to travel.

They herded all the Navajo Indians in different districts he

was going to be in; they brought in the people and the children

and they cleaned them all up. They took all the old dirty

clothing off and gave them nice clean clothing. Dillon Myers

went down there and there were the Navajos all dressed up

nice and clean and they looked nice and prosperous."

Mr. Abbott. Last fall we went down theea and they

didn't know we were coming and they looked clean and prosperous.

Mr. Lookinghorse. That is what she told me.

Now, when they got in this big council with Dillon Myers,

before he was given one chance to say a word, an old indian

 83

man got up and said he wanted to be heard. He says, "X want

to ask Dillon Myers where they got all that money to clean the

^a Indians up and dress us up the way we are."

The Navajo Indians may be smarter than we are. I don't

know, but I think they are way behind the Siouxs. Maybe they

got a lot of money now, but you know they discovered

uranium up there. They will have to pay it back.

Mr. Abbott. They have very little money, but the rehabili-

tation program is different. They don't speak English. Most

of your people do. It has to be tailored to the individual

reservation, but you surely would not want to be left in the

position of saying if Congress is willing to appropriate these

funds for rehabilitation to help your people -- and the

chances are very, very good, no reason to think it would not

help the people -- you would not want to be left in the posi-

tion of telling the committee of Congress to not give your

tribe that opportunity, would you?

Mr. Lookinghorse. Doesn't Congress appropriate money

to the Indian Buraau for the benefit of the Indians?

Mr.Abbott. Surely.

Mr. Lookinghorse. To take care of us, teach us and guard

Sus and guide us?

Mr. Abbott. Precisely. You are not saying that the

amount of money appropriated should not be increased to meet

a particular need. The total indian Bureau appropriation for

m llI ,
84

last year, for example, averaged abcut three hundred dollars

per Indian, on reservations in the United States.

This is taking a small group, a relatively small group

^ of the total and setting up for them a special program.

Now, you would not want the impression left that you are

against that? Let me put it this way: If you have a nice

automobile that handled properly, it will get you where you

want to go, but there is a driver in it that you don't like,

you don't junk the automobile, you shoot the driver, don't you?

Mr. Lookinghorse. I donut know.

Mr. Abbott. Well, Mrs. Kelly, the automobile is the

rehabilitation program. You would not junk the rehabilitation

program simply because you don't like the driver, would you?

Mrs. Kelly. I tell you, we are going more by the

experience we have had on the reservation. The old Indians

and young Indians down there, and those that are off, we are

I going by experience.

Every year Congress puts out money, we think for the

benefit of the Indians. When it comes to the reservation

nothing but rules and regulations and new policy each time to

experiment on us Indians.

1 I would think the Indians are nothing but guinea pigs.

Mr. Abbott. Then, ma'am, you should shoot th-3 driver.

Mrs. Kelly. You give me a gun and I will shoot the

Indian Bureau.

w
 I I
85

Representative Berry. Who do you have next, Mrs. Kelly?

Mrs. Kelly. I have Mrs. Ankle. Mrs. Ankle just got here.

She is a sickly woman. She just got here, but she is repre-

senting the Little Eagle District, too.

Representative Berry. Thank you, Mr. Loov inghorse.

Now, Mrs. Ankle, will you come up.

While Mrs.Ankle is taking the stand, I would like to

say that the witnesses we have this afternoon are very good

examples of what the Sioux people can do if they wish to.

Mr. Redfish has been a successful farmer for many years.

Thisman that just left the stand, Mr. Lookinghorse, has

proven to you that he is a successful mechanic, that he is

educating his children, putting them through school and through

college.

Mrs. Ankle, she and her husband have been engaged in the

livestock business for many years. They are successful. They

have educated their children and put them through local high

school where both boys were very prominent in athletics.

The young,, boy is graduating from college this year.

isn't that right?

Mrs. Ankle. Next year.

Representative Berry. This is Mrs, Henry Ankle, from

Little Eagle.

Do you have a statement now, Mrs. Ankle, you wish to make

on this bill?
 I I i I
86

STATEMENT OF MRS. HENRY ANKLE, LITTLE EAGLE,

SOUTH DAKOTA.

Mrs, Ankle, Well, I am glad to say I was one of the

negotiators of Standing Rock which made up this contract and

which was put in the bill. That is what we are talking about

now.

After the delegates were elected to come to Washington

from the tribal council the general council met at Little Eagle

in which every district was represented, I believe, excepting

Kenel. They elected two delegates from South Dakota and I

happened to be one, Mr. Redfish the other.

What I have to say about this bill is the people back

A home think that when this rehabilitation program is approved,

they think the people would not get equal shares of borrowing

the money.

So they wanted a bigger payment so they can build homes,

go to shool lonver, or stat themselves in a little business.

I think they were right, because there are some people

that are educated enough and qualified to get this loan when it

does get approved by Congress, but there are some left that

are uneduated and have big families and they have poor houses

Sto live in.

We wondered what was going to happen to those people if they

don't get any of this loan. They won't qualify to get it.

That is the reason why the people of Little Eagle District want
 87

a bigger payment out of this if it is approved and which I

think is right because I live among them and I know how they

are.

When investigators get out on Standing Rock they get them

to the place where the people are better off so they don't

know the conditions of the people that are in worse condi-

tions. They have poor living conditions and tuberculosis

coming back to the reservation on account of that. They need

better houses to live in.

So they are asking for a bigger per capita payment if

this rehabilitation is approved.

Then I was one of them that talked on this Oahe Dam

negotiation and we already sold our land, which you know, and

it is in the bill and they offered us five million dollars-

something for intangibles, then we asked for this fourteen

million dollars, which is broken down into different units.

I was one of the negotiators, so I know it and I believe

I was one of them that approved of it when the Contract went

back to the committee for approval.

But outside the people sent me here to tell you that they

wanted a bigger payment if they can get it so they can build

better homes.

Their houses are so low they are not sanitary, they have

poor living conditions. They should, I believe, have better

homes because we heard Congress -- there was a bill approved

 - I I
88

that there was sanitarians training to go to each home to

teach sanitation.

How are they going to teach sanitation when they are in

y poor houses? We need better houses for our children that are

growing up, some of them from six to seven to eight children in

one home, one-room log cabin.

So if there is a possible way of looking after those

people especially, why, that is going to be a good thing,

About loans, they have to qualify and there is so much

restriction and it is making it hard and I wish they could I

extend their five-year period. Instead of that it should be

ten or twenty years to pay that money back, the CF loan they

* call it on the reservation.

If this is worked out right, I think that this program

will help a lot of us.

They signed this petition, Mr. James Dogwood took it

around and signed it, both petitions, so I brought it,

Representative Berry. That is the peititon fron Little

Eagle?

Mrs. Ankle, Yes.

Representative Berry. That will be made a part of the

Sfile with the other petition.

r
(The document referred to was received and made a

part of the committee's file)

 89

Representative Berry. You are not opposed to the pro-

gram set out in the bill, but you feel that there are those in

the Little Eagle area who feel that the per capita payment

should be larger?

Mrs. Ankle. Yes.

Representative Berry. Thank you very much, Mrs. Ankle,

for a very fine and complete statement.

Whom do you have next, Mrs. Kelly?

Mrs. Kelly. Mr. Loone.

STATEMENT OF EDWARD LOONE, FORT YATES,

NORTHDAKOTA.

Representative Berry. Your name is Edward Loone, and

you live where?

Mr. Loone. Fort Yates.

Representative Berry. Just go right ahead with your

statement, Mr. Loone.

Mr. Loone. Mr. Chairman, I represent the standing Rock

Sioux Tribe. We held a meeting at Little Eagle, South Dakota,

the general council. We brought this matter up of this bill

which was supposed to be introduced.

The people of Standing Rock oppose this bill which they

don't want.

Representative Berry. What percentage of the people do

you think, Edward, are opposed to the bill in its present

form? More than half?

 I
90

Mr. Loone. More than half.

Representative Berry. Go ahead.

Mr. Loone. Just before I left some of the 'ndians on

the reservation -- I was delegated -- this is my first trip

to Washington and it is something to me, and it is kind of

hard for me to talk, but I will try to explain as well as I

can -- the people of Standing Rock do not want this bill, and

they want to protest it.

As far as the loan is concerned, I know many of the

Indians, full blooded Indians, we don't have a chance to make

a loan.

I am forty-two years old, myself. I havb been raised on

the reservation; I haven't any chance to make any loan or any

money from the Indian Bureau.

They have done nothing for me, so I am not in favor of

that bill.

Representative Berry. Are you a member of the tribal

council?

Mr. Loone. I am the local chairman of the district of

Fort Yates.

Representative Berry. As such, you are not a member of

the tribal council; is that correct?

Mr. Loone. Not a member, no.

Mr. Abbott. Mr. Loone, you say you speak for the people

of the reservation?
EI MI dl
91

Mr. Loone. Yes, sir, the majority of the people.

Yr. Abbot. That would be the people with hom you have

As talked are against it?

Mr. Loone. Younean which people?

Mr. Abbott. I am trying to determine the basis for your

statement that the majority of the people on the reservation

are against it?

Mrs. Kelly. He talked to a lot of full blood Indians

that don't get contact with the tribal business council or the

Indian Office officials. There is a class of people that never

get any information whatsoever. He is speaking fcr that type.

Mr. Abbott. Now, are they against a rehabilitation pro-

gram? 5
Mr. Loone. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. Would you say that they understand what is

meant by rehabilitation? Are you saying that they are against

an education program, and against improved housing?

Mr. Loone. Yes, they are.

Mr. Abbott. They are against that?

Mr. Loone. In this bill, yes.

Mr. Abbott. In this bill?

0 Mir. Loone. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. That is not entirely clear. Then what would

be done with the money that is made available?

MW. Loone. When this bill came up most Indian people did

I I I
 92

read about it or did not understand that this had a shorter

time, nobody hardly explained it to them. They just don't know

where they are at.

Mr. Abbott. Would you be against some of your people

who want tofarn, having an opportunity to be set up in the

farming business with some equipment, the necessary land?

You would not be against that, would you?

Mr. Loone. I would Lot be against it. If the bill goes

through, I know most of the ndians would not have a share

in it; therefore, I am against that bill.

Mr. Abbott. There again what you are saying is that you

are not against the program; you do not believe if you had

a program that it would be administered properly so that

everybody would have an opportunity. Is that what you are

saying?

Mr. Loone. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. Let me ask you this question: Have you had

meetings where the people can come and have this program

explained to them?

Mr. Loone, No.

Mr. Abbott. It has been discussed in tribal council

meetings?

Mr. Loone. Yes.

Mr. Abbott. And those are open to the public?

Mr. Loone. No.

.5~$
 93

Mr. Abbott. Now, they are not all executive; they are

not all executive,are they?

A Mrs. Kelly. The tribal council, just like I said, the

meetings are always behind closed doors. We don't know what

they are talking about, cr anything else.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Abbott. You people express yourselves quite well.

Do you feel that the program has been explained to the

people?

Mrs. Kelly. No, it has not been explained to the people.

Mr. Abbott. It is just not quite believable if it ..

s

understood how thisprogram would work that your people would be

-e against the program.

Now, they might be for having all the money distributed

per capita, or they might be against the present tribal council

or the indian Bureau, but if you have a program explaining

what this bill would do along the rehabilitation lines, it is

just not believable that people would be against it.

Mrs. Kelly. I tell you the way I figure it, the

Standing Rock Indians have been -- I don't know, you might as

well say it -- at one time they were so well fixed financially

9 and independent, and now they are so hard up and poor and

hungry, with deplorable consitions on the reservation. They

are just plumb disgusted.

When anything comes up they figure that the Indian Bureau

 94

is trying to play some more tricks on them.

Mr. Abbott. Mrs. Kelly, it is a little difficult, I

am sure, for any Congressional committee to act unless they

have constructive criticism. It takes constructive criticism

to help point the gentlemen on the committee in the right

direction.

Now, perhaps it is true that in your experience many,

many times the indian Bureau has done a miserable job of

doing what they were supposed to do. There are a lot of

opinions on that. They have had a very tough job to do.

We have talked with perhaps one out of fifty of the

employees, the eleven or twelve thousand employees of the

Indian Bureau. Theyhave a very tough job to do. It is not

always a popular job.

But because some errors have been made in the past and

because you do not like the red tape, would you go around to

your people and say, "Be against a rehabilitation program"?

Are you against Congress trying to mak a program work?

Mrs. Kelly. I will tell you, with the indians on our

resewation they depend on the Congressmen and Senators. They

go and vote for them and every year they think something better

iscoming out to the Indians. It is always the Indian Bureau

policy. The Indian Bureau has many employees that are swell,

they are fine people, but they have to go by the rules and

regulations.

Lamm
 I i
95

Mr. Abbott. Can we keep the record straight, Mrs.

Kelly, the Indian Bureau does not write the legitlation in

ninety percent of the cases.

Ask
v Mrs. Kelly. I know they don't.

Mr. Abbott. They are asked to comment on it. When they

write the legislation it is in response to a request of the

Congress. I don't know how many times our Indian Affairs

Subcommittee has met during this Eighty-Third Congress, but

certainly one hundred bills have been taken up and there are

a lot of Indians who believe that Congress, being aware of

its experiences in the past, is perhaps pointed in a new

direction, perhaps a correct direction.

They are trying to get the Indian Eureau out of business.

B
You surely do not complain about that.

Mrs. Kelly. I tell you with me I might need some more

education, but the way I can see it, when we were still wild

and wooly and didn't have any education or anything, we Indians

were better off when we didn't have the administration over

us that we have now.

Mr. Abbott. Precisely, ma'am, and you will admit that

then there was a billion acres of land west of the Mississippi

* River. Your Sioux people roamed over millions of them.

Mrs. Kelly. Surely, they should have left us alone. We

would still be going around in breech cloth and buckskin

dresses.

q ~
 96

Mr. Abbott. You can't return to your days of hunting

and warring now and then, Civilization has grown up. You would

hardly return to those old days, would you?

Mrs. Kelly. We are still in those old days. When there

is a war, the Indian boys are right there, ready to be drafted.

Mr. Abbott. Mrs. Kelly, you do a pretty find job of

putting me in my place. You are still quite a long ways from

the wigwam. I don't think you would seriously argue that

you should return to it?

Mrs, Kelly. We were right here yesterday because we are

ready to fight all the time,

Mr. Abbott. I have had many friends who went to school

with me who could not do as well as you before the committee

here.

Mrs. Kelly. Thank you very much.

Mr. Abbott. I think the record will reflect your

opinion of the Indian Office.

Representkive Berry. Do you have any more witnesses,

Mrs. Kelly?

Mrs. Kelly. No, but my experience as an Indian has sure

been a tough one. I have been out among the White people just

like Mr. Lookinghorse, for a good many years.

Mr. E. Y, Berryos wife knows me personally. She knows

that I have worked off the reservation. When I ent back to

the reservation in 1944, it has been one continuous battle.

 I I

97

Go to the agency. I thought the Indian Bureau was there

to help protect the Indian. It was always a battle with me.

A I would go in and act like a lady and then the superintendent

would start saying something mean to me and, of course, I would

not take it. I backfired every single time. That is the

way I did up until 1947 when Mr. Carr came.

Since then I have not been able to quarrel with anybody.

Mr. Spencer is good to me. I go in there and sometimes

I bawl people out, but we are always good friends.

At least when I go in the office he greets me with a

* smile and a good morning.

* Mr. Lippard and Mr. Mossman never did that. I was

always a battle royal with me.

I have had a lot of miserable experiences.

(Discussion off the record)

Representative Berry. Do you have any other witnesses?

Mrs. Kelly. No, that is all. I certainly appreciate your

listening to me.

Representative Berry. We appreciate your coming dowr.

Mrs. Kelly. A lot of people don't like me. They say,

"Here comes" -- I don't know what kind of a bag they call me,

but they say "She is always blowing her top."

Representative Berry. The committee will stand adjourned.

(Thereupon, at 4:05 o'clock p.m., the subcommittee was

recessed, to reconvene subject to the call of
the Chair).