204 acme ‘We investigated the fllowing areas: the practice of oaths in judicial disputes and its evolution from the cathefance of liigants who expored themselves to the vengeance of the gods tothe assertive oath of a witness who attests to the rth of an event in which he was involved or which he observed, the search for an equitable measure (not only in com- ‘mercial exchanges but inthe social relationships within a city) ‘through the instttion of money, the seach for a “nomos” for a fst law of distibution to ‘guarantee order within the city, in establishing an order that the order ofthe word, ‘=the purification nites after a murder, ‘Throughout this period, the distribution of justice served as an arena for important political stroggles. These struggles utimatly cated a form of justice inked to «form of inowledge which resupposes that tat is vse, ascertainable, and measurable, that it responds to laws similar to those which egcter the order of the world, and that to discover i alo to posts is valve for parieation. This typeof affirmation of truth becomes funda ‘mental inthe history of Wester knowledge. ‘The seminar daring this pat year set as ite general framework the study ofthe penal estan in France during the nineteenth century. Tt concemed itself with the early developments of son psychiatry during the Restoration; a Targe part of it Primary material derived from the medial and legal reports produced by the contemporaries and disciples of Esquirl (Papers were read by J-P. Peter, R Castel, and Fontana) x Intellectuals and Power A conversation between Michel Foucault and Gilles Deleuze Mics. Foveatur: A Maoist once said to me: “I can easly understand Sartre's purpose in siding with us; Tcan understand his goals and his involvement in politics; ean partially andere sand your postion, since youve always been concerned with the problem of confinement. But Deleuze is an enigma Twas Shocked by this statement because your postion hes always seemed particulary lear tome. Guzes Detom: Possibly we'e in the process of experiencing «new relationship between theory and practice, At ove time, ractice was considered en application of theory. a consequence, st other times, it had an opposite sense and it was thought inspite theory, to be indispensable forthe creation of future forms, In any event, their relationship was under. stood ia terms of a proces of totalization, For us, howeves, the ‘question fs seen in a diferent ight, The relationships between theory and practice are far more partal nd frugmentary. On fone side, a theory is always local and related to « limited eld, and itis applied in another sphere, more ot less distant frome ‘The relationship which holds in the application of 2 theory tsnever ono of resemblance, Moreover, fn the ment «theory roves fato is proper damala, i begins to encounter obstacles, wall, and blockages which reuice is rly by another type of scours (i i trough thir ater dicoure that i evenly pases toa diferent domain). Practice is «st of relays from ont {theoretical pont to anther, sod thar ia rly frm one prac tice to another. No theory ean develop without eventually en countering a wall, and practice is necessary for pereing this wall. For example, your work begun tn the theoretical analysis of the context of confinement, specifcally with respect to the Peyehinti asylum within a ental society in the nineteenth ‘century. Then you became aware of the neces for confined Individuals to speak for themselves, to create relay (its por sib, on th contzary, that your function was already that of relay in relation to them); and this group is found ln prisons (hese individuals are imprisoned. It wasn this ass that you organized the ifrmation roup for prisons (G.LP.) the object being to erate conditions that permit the prisoners themselves to speak, Ie would be ably flo to say as the Maoist i plied, tht in moving to this practice you were applying your hears. This was not an application: nor was ita projet for Initiating reforms or an enquiry in the traditional sense, The ‘emphasis was altogether diferent: «system of relays within 8 larger sphere, within a mulkiplicy of parts that are both theo retical and practi. A theorising intletal for us, sn longer a subject, a represeatng or representative consciousness. Those who act and struggle are no longer represented, either by ‘soup oF « union that appropriates the right t stand as their oncience Who speaks end acu? tis always « maltipcity, (ven within the person who speaks and sce All of us ate groupuscules”* Representation ‘no longer eis; there’ oaly 1, “Groupe information de pens": Fossa two mot recent lictint ore Raie to Sut Pd) Toi as "2. above “Theatr Piosophicum”p. 185 ereuiecroais ism sown 207 action—theoretlel action and practical action which seeve as relays and form networks, Foucauxt: It seems to me that the pola involvement ofthe ‘intellectual was traditionally the produc of two diferent aspects of his activity: his postion as an Intelletal in bourgeois society, fn the syste of capitalist production snd within the ideology it produces or imposes (his eplottion, poverty, rejection, per- secution, the sccustions of subversive activity, immorality, et); and his proper discourse to the extent that it reveled a particu: lar truth, that it disclosed politcal relationships where they were unsuspected. These two forms of pliteeation did not exclude each other, but, being of a diferent order, neither dla they coincide. Some were classod at Tontoats” and others as “tocilsts” During moments of violent rection onthe part of the authorities, these to postions were readily fused: after 1845, after the Commune, after 1040, The intellectual war te- fected and persecuted at the proce moment when the facts ‘came incontrovertible, when it was forbidden to say thatthe emperor had no clothes. The ‘atellsctual spoke the truth to those who hd yet to see it in the name of those who were forbidden to speak the truth: he was conscience, consciousness, snd eloquence. In the most recent uphenval® the intelectual discovered that the masses no longer need him to grin knowledge; they know Perfectly well, without sion; they Inow far better than he ‘nd they are certainly capable of expressing themselves, But there exists a system of power which blocks, pokibits, and invalidates this discourse and this knowledge, power not only found in the ‘manifest authority of ceasrsip, bat one tht profoundly and subtly penetrates an entre societal network Intellectuals ae themselves agents of this system of power—the idea of their ‘esponsibility for “consciousness” and dicoutse forms part ofthe system. The intellectuals role is no linger to place himself “somewhat abead and to the sida” inorder to express the stifled 8. May 1868, opualy kaon the “events of May.”‘ruth of tho collectivity; rater, i to struggle agalast the forms of power that transform him into its objec and instruments the sphere of “knowledge,” “truth,” “eonscioumess,” and aicourse"* Tn this sense theory does not express, translate, or serve to apply practice: tts practice. But ti Toeal and regional a you said, and not totalizing. This ea trugale against power, «srg: fle aimed at revealing and undermining power where i is mort {avisible and insidious. Te ie not to “awaken conscioumess” tht wwe struggle (the masses have been aware for some time that consciousness iss form of knowledge; and comscioumess ar the basis of subjectivity Is prerogative of the bourgeose), but to sap power, to take power, sis an activity conducted alongside those who struggle fr power, and not their lumination frm a safe distance. A “hoary” isthe regional system of this strugale Daevzr: Precisely. A theory is exactly like a box of tools It ‘nas nothing to do withthe signif. Tt must be useful. Te mast, fanetion. And not for itself IF noone use i, being with he theoreticisn himself (whe then ceases to be a theoreticlan), then the theary is worbles: ar the moment inappropriate, ‘We dont revise a theory, but construct new ones we have no ‘choice but to make others. Ie is suange that it was Proust, an ‘author thought tbe a pure iatllectaal, who sa i 9 clea treat my book asa pir of glasses directed to the ouside; if they dont suit you, find another pai; I leave it to you to nd your ‘own instrament, which is necessarily an instrument for combat A theory does not totalize; i san instrument for multiplication ‘and it also multiplies isle Te is im the nature oF power & totalize and it is your postion, and one I fally agree with, that theory is by nature opposed to power. As soon ab a Uhory i eamesbed in a particular polnt, we realioe that s will never possess the slightest practical importance ules it ean erupt ia 8 totally diferent area. This is why the notion of reform ix 0 stupid and hypocritical. Either reforms are designed by people 4: Seo LOndve da dours, pp. 7-53, nemmizcrsss owen 200 who claim tobe represeatative, who make profession of speak: ing fr others, and they lead toa division of power, toa ditibu- tion of this sew power which ir consequetly increased by a double repression; or they vse fom the complaint and demands ‘of those concerned. This latter instance sno longer efor but revolutionary action that questions (expresting the ful foree of its partiality) the totality of power and the hererchy that main- tains i This s surly evident in pelsous: the mallet snd most Insignifcant of tho pesonerd demands can puncture Plevess ‘psendoreform.* I the protests of children were heard in Kinder: fren, if their questions were attended t, it would be enough to explode the entre educational sytem. There is no denying that our socal sytem i totally without tolerance; this accounts for its extreme fragility la all ts arpecs and alo its need for bal form of repression. In my opinion, you were the frst—in ‘your books sod in the practical sphere—to teach us something bsoltely fundamental: the indignity of speaking for others. We ridiculed representation and said It wat fished, but we falled to draw the consequences of this “heretical” conversion—t0 sppreciate the theoretical fat that ony thse dicety concerned ‘am speakin a peactial way on their own bebal Fovcautr: And when the prisoners began to speak, they pos. sessed an individual theory of prions, the penal system, and justice, Is this form of discourse which utimatly mater, a Aiscourse aginst power, the couterdicourse of prisoners and those we call delinquents—and not a theory about delinquency ‘The problem of prisons is Iocal and marginal: not more tha 100.000 people pass through prisons ia a year, In France at present, between 900,000 and 400,000 have een to prison, Yet ‘this marginal problem seams to disturb everyone, Iwas supesed ‘hat 20 many who had not been to pxison coal bocome interested fn its problems, surprised that all those who had never heard the discourse of inmates could so easly understand then. How do we explain this? Int it because, ina general way the peael 5. Reo Poven was the rime mister of Frnace fa the early 19508.210 acne system is the form in which power is most obviously seen as ower? To place someone in prisn, to confine him there, ‘deprive him of food and het, to prevent him from leaving, fom ‘making love, et2—this i certainly the most frenzied manifesta: tion of power imaginable The other day I was speking to « ‘woman who had been in pison and she was saying: “Imagine, that atthe age of forty, I was panished one day with a meal of ‘ry bread” What is siking about this story is not the chide ness ofthe exerlse of power but the ynicim with which power {is exerised as power, in the most achat, perl, infantile man- net. As children we learn what it meas to be reduced to bread snd water, Prison is the only place where power is manifested ints naked state, in its most excessive frm, and where it it Justiied as moral fore. “am within iy rights to punish you Because you Know that Wis eciminal to rob and Kil.” What, Is fascinating about prisons i that, for ono, power doen't hide ‘or mask itself it reveals isla tyranny pursued into the tinier details; it Is cyniel and atthe same time pure and ently “justifed” because its practice can be totally formulated within the framework of morality. Tes brutal tyranny consequently ap- ‘pears asthe serene domination of Good over Evi of order over Gisorder Duzcze: Yes, and the revere i equally true, Not only are psoners treated like children, but children are tested Whe risers. Children are submitted to an infantiiaton which is alien to them. On this basi, itis undeniable that schools re- semble prisons and that factories are its closest approximation. Look atthe entrance to Renault plant, or anywhere elie for ‘that matter: three tickets to get into the washroom daring the dey, You found an elghtenth-oetury txt by Jeremy Beatham roposing prison reforms n the name of thie exalted reform, he ‘tablshes a circalar sytem where the renovated prison server 1s e model and whore the iadividal pases imperceptibly from school tothe factory, from the factory to prison and vie ver. ‘This is the essence ofthe reforming impulse, of reformed rete: ereuircreais wx rowen 211 seotation. On the contrary, when people bepa to spesk and act on their own behalf, they do nct oppose thle representation (even as its reversal) to another; thy do not oppore a new represeatatvty tothe false representativity of power. For ex: ample, I remember your saying that there fe no popular justice against justice; the reckoning takes place at another level. Foucaour [think tht it is noe imply the idea of better and ‘more equitable forms of justice that uaderies the people's hatred ofthe judicial sytem, of judges, cours, and prisons, but aside from this and before anything else—the singular perception that Power is always exercised at the expense of the people, The antjudcal strate is estroge aginst power and f dont think that i sa strugele against injustice, agin the injustice ofthe {dca syste, or #stragule for improving the elilency of ts Instntions, Its particularly striking that in outbreaks of toting and revolt or in stltious movements the judicial system bat ben as compelling a target as the Saancialstrcture, the aray, snd other forms of power. My hypothests—but it i mesely a Iypothesis—is that popular cout, ch as those found in the evolution, were a means forthe lower middle class, who were allied with the masses, to salvage and recapture the iltitve in the strgele against the jdical system. To achieve this, they proposed a court system based on the possibilty of equitable fuse, where a judge might render a just verdict. The idntiale form of the court of law belongs tothe bourgeois ideology of Iustice, Drurozs: On the bass of our actual situation, power ex hatially develops a total or global vision, That i, ll the cure et forms of repression (the ascst repression of immigrant workers repression inthe factories, nthe educational system, and ‘the general represion of youth) are eally totlized from the point of view of power. We should not only seck the unity of these forms in the reaction to May eS, but mare appropriately, the concerted preparation and organisation of the near future ‘reach capitalism now relies on “margin” of unemployment212 mmonce snd has abandoned the liberal and pateral mask that promised {all employment. In thie perpective, we begin to se the unity ‘of the forms of repression: vestrtons on immigration, once i it acknowledged that the most dificlt and thankless jobs go to fmmigrant workers—repression in tho factories, because the French mast reaoqire the "taste" for increasingly barder work the strugle against youth and the repression of the educations system, because police repression is more active when there Is less need for young people inthe work force. A wide range of professionals (teachers, psychiatrists, educator of all kinds, et.) ‘will be called upon to exercise funetione that have traditionally belonged to the police. This is something you predicted long ‘go, and it was thought impossible tthe tie: the relforcement ofall the stmctres of confinement. Agalst tis global policy of ‘Power, we initiate localized counter responses, skmlshe, active ‘and occasionally preventive defenses. We have no noed 10 ‘wtalize that which is invariably totalled on the side of power, we were to move in this ireton it would mean restoring the representative fom of centralsm and a hierarchical structure, ‘We most set up Intra aflitions and an entice system of net- works and popular bases; and this is especially dificult. In any case, we no longer define realty asa continuation of polite the tational sese of competition andthe dstrbution of power, ‘rough the so-called representative agencies ofthe Communist arty or the General Workers Union Realty is what actualy Ihappeas in factories, in school, barack, in prisons, in police stations. And this action eares a type of information which is together dierent from that found in newspapers (this explains the Kind of information carried by tho Agonce de Pest Libération)" Fovcaucr: Init this difclty of nding adequate forms of struggle a result of the fact that we contin to fgnore the prob- Jem of power? After al, we bad to walt until the nineteenth (6, “Conftdration Gédele do Trvalew” 1 Liberation News Agency century before we began to understand the mature of exploitation, and to this day, we have yet to fully comprehend the nature of power, may be that Marx end Freud cannot satisty our desire for understanding this enigmatic thing which we call power, which is at once visible and inviable, present and hidden, ubiquitous Theories of goverment and the traditional analyses oftheir mechanisms certainly dont exhaust the feld where power is exercised and where it fonctions. The question of power te- ‘mains a total enigme. Who exercises power? And in what epbere? ‘We now know with reasonable certainty who esplots others, who receives the profs, which people are involved, and we now how these funds are reinvested. But as for power ... We ‘now that i is notin the hands of those who govern. But, of comurse, the idea of the “ruling clase" har never received an adequate formulation, and neltber have other terms, such 85 "0 dominate,” “to rule" “to gover,” ee. These notions are far t00 fnid and require analysis. We should also investigate the limits posed on the exercise of power—the relays through which it operates andthe extent of ts infuence on the often insigncant specs of the herarchy and the forms of control, surveillance, prohibition, end constraint. Everywhere that power exists, ti being ererised. No one, striely speaking, hasan offal right to ‘power; and yet tis aways exerted in a particular direction, with some people on one side and some on the other, Ie often di ficult to say who holds power ln precise ene, bu it is easy to ee who Tacks power. If the reading of your books (from ‘Nietzsche to what I antiipate in Capitalism and Sohzophrenia)* ‘has been essential for me, iis bees they seem to go very far ‘in exploring this problem: under the aneient theme of meaning, ofthe signifier and the signed, ete, you have developed the ‘gestion of power, of the inequality of powers and thelr strug 8, Nietche of a phovophe (Pars .F, 1900) end Capielime shtopivnt, vl 1, Cant Ondipe, fx elaboration with F. Coat. tar (Par: ans 86 Mina, 1072). Noor bask hs ben tans ited at Engi214 macmee ‘des. Each struggle develops around « particular source of power (any ofthe countless, tiny sourees—a smalltime bor the mana- sie of "HLM," prison wardea, judge, a union representa tive, the editorinehief of a newspaper). And i pointing out these sources—denouncing and speaking outs to be a pat of the struggle, it is not because they were previously unkown Rather, it because to speak on this subject, to force the lar stitaionalized networks of infomation to listen, to. produce names, to point the Sager of accusation, to find targets, i the fist step ln the reversal of power andthe inition of mew stag. ales against existing forms of power. If the discourse of inmates for prison doctors constitater a form of struggle, itis because they confscate, at least temporary, the power to speak on ‘ison conditions—at present, the exclusive property of prison ‘administrators and their cronies in reform groaps. The discourse of struggle is not opposed to the unconscious, bt to the seer tive. It may not seer like much but what ft gured ont to be more than we expected? A whole series of minmnderstandings relates to things that are “hidden” “repressed” and “unsaid; and they permit the cheap “paychoanalysi” ofthe proper objets of struggle. I is pechaps more diicle to unearth a secret than ‘the unconscious. The two themes frequently encountered inthe recent past, that writing gives rise to represed elements” and that “writing is necessarily subversive activi,” seem to betray ‘number of operation that deserve tobe severely denounced, Daxvze: With respect to the problem you posed: iti clear ‘who exploits, who profs, and who governs, but power nevesthe- less remains something mare difuse T would venture the follow ‘ng hypothesis: the trast of Mariam wat to define the problem essentially In terms of interests (power is eld by azuling clas Aefined by its interests). The question immediately arses: how fs it that people whose interests are nt being served ean srcly support the existing power structure by demanding apiece ofthe action? Pethaps, this is because in tems of incestments, wheter 8, “Habtations Alves modi"; moderteretl busing. perELLECrUMLs 0 20WEN BIS ‘cemomie or unconscious, interest isnot the fal answer; there are investments of dese that function in a more profound and lifuse manner than our interests cate. But of coure, we never desire against our interests, because interest always fellows and finds itself where desire has plaed it We cannot shut out the seream of Reich: the masses were not declved; at particular time, they actually wanted fascist opine! Thee are investments ‘of desire that mold and diseabute power, tht make it the Property of the policeman as mach as ofthe prime minister; in this context, there is no qualitative diference between the power wielded bythe pliceman and the prime minister The nature of these investments of desire in a social group explains why Political parties or unions, which might have or should have rev- ‘olutionary investments inthe mame of clase atte, are 30 often ‘efor oriented or absolutely reactionary onthe level of deste. Foucauiz: As you say the relatonship between desir, power, and interest are more complex than we ordinarily think, and ft {s not necessarily those who exercise power who have an interest nits execution; nor isi always posse for those with verted fnterests to exercise power. Moreover, the desire for power ‘tablishes a singular relationship between power aad interest 1 may happen that the massa, during fascist periods, dsie ‘that certain people assume power, people with whom they are ‘unable to identify since those individuals exert power against the ‘masses and at their expense, tothe exteme oftheir death, their sacrife, their massacre. Nevertheless, they dese this particular Power; they want it to be exercised. This play of dese, power, ‘and interest as received very litle attention. It was «longtime before we began to understand exploitation; and dese has hed ‘nd contiues to have along history. 1 possible that the strug- ales now taking place and the lol, regional, and discontinuous Uheories that derive from these stuggles and that are inde sociable from them stand at the threshold of our discovery of the ‘manner in which power is exeresed, Daxeozt: In this cote, I must return to the question: the218 recrce resent revolutionary movement has created multiple centers, land not asthe result of weaknes or fmaficeny, since a certain ‘ind of totalization pertains fo power and the forces of reaction. (Vietmam, for instance, is an impressive example of localized countertatics). But how are we to defiae the networks, the transversal links between these active and discontinuous points, from one country to another or within a slngle country? Fourauur: The question of geographical discontinuity which you mise might mean the following! as soon at we struggle ‘against explaltaton, the proletariat not only leads the strugsle Dat also defines its targets, ts methods, andthe places and in struments for confrontation; and to ally oneself with the pro- letariat i to accept its postions, it ideology, and its motives for combst. This means total identifcation, But ifthe Sight is directed against power, then all those on whom power fe ex: excised to their detriment, all who find intolerable, can begin ‘the struggle on their own termain and on the bass of thelr proper activity (or passivity). In engaging in a struggle that ‘concerns their own Interests, whose objectives they leary understand and whose methods ony they cin determine, they ‘enter into a revolationay process. They naturally enter a allies of the proletariat, because power Is exercised the way it i in order to maintain capitalist exploitation. They genuinely serve the cause of the proletariat by fighting ia those places where they find themselves oppressed. Women, prisoners, conscripted soldiers, hspltal patients, and homosemals have now begun specific struggle against the particalarized power, the cot SHraints and contol, chat are exerted over them. Such strogales fro sctually involved in the revolutionary movement to the Agree that they are radleal, uncompromising and nonrformis, and refuse any attempt at arriving at « new disposition of the same power with, at best, a change of masters. And these move- ‘ments are linked to the revolutionary movement ofthe proletariat to the extent that they fight aguas che controls and constraints ‘hich serve the same system of power. pereiscruits aroromen S17 In this sense, the overall plcture presented by the struggle certainly not that of the ttalization you mentioned ear, is ‘eoretcltoalizatio under tho guise of “uth” The generally of the strugzle spciically derives from the system ef power Stef from all the forms in which power i exercised and applied ‘Druruze: And which we are unable to approach in any ofits spplications without revealing its difuse character, 50 that we so necessarily led—on the bass of the most insgnifcant Jer ‘mand—to the desire to blow it up completly. Every revoltion- ary attack or defense, however partial is nked in this way to the worker struggle