Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 http://forum.emusictheory.com/read.php?

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Need help analysing chord functions in

Gymnopedie no. 1
Posted by Nick 
Nick
Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 IP/Host: 218.186.8.---
January 03, 2010 12:51AM

A segment of Gymnopedie no. 1, from bar 22.

I'm stumped as to what chords these bars are supposed to be and what functions they play. I was
thinking it would be something of the fourth, as it seems to have been modulated to G major already.
So the first two bars would be Aminor and G6, ii/IV and IV6, respectively. Am I right?

So for the blue circled bar, I thought it could be a Dmajor minor7th in G, a fifth of fourth, but then
there's an E note there.

For the red circled section I'm just clueless how something in C major can be related to D Major,
unless he's doing a circle of fifth motion or something?

Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.

Zapped IP/Host: 24.28.16.---
Re: Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 Registered: 9 years ago
January 03, 2010 08:17AM Posts: 219
I'm no expert on this piece although it's heard a lot in my house, where both my sons are pianists.

In your excerpt, the very first measure invokes a v-->i cadence in Dm (Am-->Dm). After that, the
remainder of the first & second lines just seems to be a modal melody in D Dorian with a Dm9
chordal texture (primary notes D F A C E). There's a little Em7/D happening too (m.8 of your
excerpt), but it barely casts a ripple on this Dm9 reflecting pool.

The first measure of the third line reverts back to D major, starting with an Em followed by an F#m
etc. Basically there's some minor/major parallelism in D at work here.

Such a lovely piece - time to fire up iTunes & listen ;)

1 di 6 13/03/18, 17:49
Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 http://forum.emusictheory.com/read.php?5,2497,2500#msg-2500

[ EDIT: That blue-circled measure seems to be another instance of Em7/D with the C-natural
melody note acting only as a passing-tone between two chord tones. ]

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2010 08:26AM by Zapped. (view changes)

stevel IP/Host: 71.253.234.---
Re: Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 Registered: 10 years ago
January 03, 2010 09:09AM Posts: 2,547
Nick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> A segment of Gymnopedie no. 1, from bar 22.
>
> I'm stumped as to what chords these bars are
> supposed to be and what functions they play.

Firstly, this is non-fuctional harmony, so determining function is useless in a traditional sense.

I was
> thinking it would be something of the fourth, as
> it seems to have been modulated to G major
> already. So the first two bars would be Aminor and
> G6, ii/IV and IV6, respectively. Am I right?

Again this is not tonal music, so talking about "G Major" and "modulating to X" may not be as
informative as you'd like it to be.

It's not "in G Major" because it's not a tonal piece. It's post-tonal. It does have a key signature, but a
key signature does not tell you the key, it tells you it might be one of two possible keys in tonal
music, in this case Bm or DM (if it were tonal).

At best, given the final cadence, we could say it is D Dorian, and the key signature of two sharps
(either by Satie or an Editor) was chosen to reflect a "key center" of D.

But obviously, the piece uses many chords throughout that shift through various modes.

This is a Modal, post-tonal piece.

Bars 1-16 are G Lydian.

Bar 17 begins a "ii-V-i" progression leading to E Dorian (the "parallel" to G Lydian).

Bar 21 begins a shift to D Dorian (F and C Naturals throughout).

So there are some "hints" at traditionalism here Nick ("parallel" treatment of modes, ii-V-i moves,
the idea that if it began in D Ionian, it could move to the "relative" D Dorian which reflects the D
Major to D minor mode change of many classical works, etc.)

>

2 di 6 13/03/18, 17:49
Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 http://forum.emusictheory.com/read.php?5,2497,2500#msg-2500

> So for the blue circled bar, I thought it could be

> a Dmajor minor7th in G, a fifth of fourth, but
> then there's an E note there.

The chord is, from bottom to top:

D-D-G-B-E-B-C-D

It depends on how you want to approach this as to what it would be called.

It is a G6 chord (G-B-D-E) or Em7 (E-G-B-D) if you consider the C note in the melody to be a
passing tone (which it often is in this position), over a D bass, so:

G6/D or Em7/D (or just Em/D for some)

If I were trying to point out a "more traditional" idea of a IV6/4 (D-G-B ) to I (D-F-A) idea to
further liken these moves to tonal music, than I'd call it the G6/D. If I wanted my analysis to point
out the "modal" nature, I'd pick the Em7/D as it sounds "more modal" as a ii-i type "cadence".
Furthermore, if I were trying to point out the ambiguous nature this piece exudes, I'd offer both as
possible interpretations.

If you are to consider the C a chord tone, then it could be CM7/D (or some would call CM9/D). I
don't think it sounds very "C-ish" though, so this would be my least likely choice.

A secondary issue here is that Jazzers see m7 and M7 chords as implying a Dorian and Lydian
source respectively, so using G6, Em7, or CM7 all imply some sort of F# and doesn't point out the D
Dorian modality as well (so again, why G6 is the least offensive choice, and has a nice tie-in with
traditionalism)

If I were looking at the entire structure, calling it "some type of D chord", it would be Dm13 -
though again I don't know how informative that is because it's missing the F and A (and by the way,
F natural is implied from measure 21, which you didn't include here).

The most informative analysis is what he's doing - using a drone D bass, with a D dorian melody
above, and harmonies from D dorian. He's also using "triad forms" above that bass, such as Em,
Am, and F to create Em7/D (Dm13), Am/D (Dm9) and F/D (Dm7).

One interesting thing to note is how the harmonies, taken from that D starting point, go from "more
dense" to "less dense" - m13 to m9 to m7 - the "ebb and flow" or "shrink and grow" throughout the
passage. However, if you consider the melody (depending on how you consider the melodic tones as
chord tones or not) that can change the overall harmonic ideas.

>
> For the red circled section I'm just clueless how
> something in C major can be related to D Major,

That's because it's not in C major.

It contains the notes A B C D E F and G.

3 di 6 13/03/18, 17:49
Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 http://forum.emusictheory.com/read.php?5,2497,2500#msg-2500

That *could be* C major, A minor, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A
Aeolian or B Locrian.

It's D Dorian (at that point).

> unless he's doing a circle of fifth motion or

> something?

It's possible in modal music to have 5th related movement, but this is not one of those instances, and
it's not tonal music, so talking about "circle of 5ths" is again not going to be very informative.

>
> Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.

Hope that helps,

Steve

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2010 09:15AM by stevel. (view changes)

Sarit
Re: Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 IP/Host: 77.124.204.---
January 11, 2010 06:51AM

Hi Steve is this was the subject that you've recommend me to look for, for my question of "How to
writie Waltz" then this is so hard to understand the last thing that I had in my mind is that this piece
is modal and not tonal I'm trying to understand what's going on here slowly I think it's very advance
for me.

BR
stevel IP/Host: 151.199.131.---
Re: Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 Registered: 10 years ago
January 13, 2010 01:54PM Posts: 2,547
Sarit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Hi Steve is this was the subject that you've
> recommend me to look for, for my question of "How
> to writie Waltz" then this is so hard to
> understand the last thing that I had in my mind is
> that this piece is modal and not tonal I'm trying
> to understand what's going on here slowly I think
> it's very advance for me.
>
> BR

4 di 6 13/03/18, 17:49
Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 http://forum.emusictheory.com/read.php?5,2497,2500#msg-2500

Forget the modal versus tonal - I'm just talking about the "basic" elements: 3/4, bass/chord
accompaniment, simple melody above.

Steve

Ricardo Cris
Re: Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 IP/Host: 200.226.123.---
April 15, 2011 01:08PM
Hi Steve

According to this link:

[books.google.com.br]

the first part is in D Major, not G Lydian. Are both points of view acceptable?

Thanks
Ricardo

Nick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [img524.imageshack.us]
> 1.jpg
>
> A segment of Gymnopedie no. 1, from bar 22.
>
> I'm stumped as to what chords these bars are
> supposed to be and what functions they play. I was
> thinking it would be something of the fourth, as
> it seems to have been modulated to G major
> already. So the first two bars would be Aminor and
> G6, ii/IV and IV6, respectively. Am I right?
>
> So for the blue circled bar, I thought it could be
> a Dmajor minor7th in G, a fifth of fourth, but
> then there's an E note there.
>
> For the red circled section I'm just clueless how
> something in C major can be related to D Major,
> unless he's doing a circle of fifth motion or
> something?
>
> Any help would be much appreciated, thanks.
Moderator
stevel IP/Host: Moderator
Re: Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1
April 15, 2011 01:54PM Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 2,547
Which chord do you hear as the "home" chord.

It sounds far more to me like the G chords are "I" and the D chords are "V".

When "G" sounds like "home", or the "tonic", or the "center", then the piece is "in G" - it's in G

5 di 6 13/03/18, 17:49
Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 http://forum.emusictheory.com/read.php?5,2497,2500#msg-2500

*something*.

Given a key signature of two sharps, and no chromatic alterations, that would make it G Lydian. The
"G-ness" of the passage makes the G feel like "I" IMHO.

Sometimes, people just don't understand the difference between modes and keys, so if it's got 2
sharps, they refuse to recognize it as anything but D Major or B minor.

Best,
Steve
cris_ricardo IP/Host: 200.226.123.---
Re: Need help analysing chord functions in Gymnopedie no. 1 Registered: 6 years ago
April 15, 2011 02:14PM Posts: 1
Thanks Steve!

Is there some way so I can hear too this "G-ness"?

I see that both melodies in the first part ends in the D chord (bars 5-8 and 13-16), and it sounds
unresolved. Is this a correct way of justificating the G as being the center?

Cheers
Ricardo
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6 di 6 13/03/18, 17:49