FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript

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When Viewpoints Differ

Guest: Scott Sauls

From the series: Jesus Outside the Lines (Day 1 of 2)
Air date: November 8, 2016

Bob: What happens in the United States today, as people go to the polls and vote,
really does matter; but as Pastor Scott Sauls reminds us, there are things that matter
more.

Scott: Here is the question—I mean: “What one man or what one woman has the
power to thwart the plans of God?” I think that’s really the question we have to ask. So,
yes, I get a little bit—I scratch my head a little bit and, sometimes, ask myself, “Are we,
Christians, paying attention to the Bible when we get so worked up and intense about
politics and when we get so worked up and we start to think that the world is coming to
an end if So-and-so gets in office?”

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, November 8th. It’s Election Day in the
United States. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I’m Bob
Lepine. There are things that are important, and there are other things that are ultimate.
We’re going to spend time talking about how we think rightly about all of these things
today. Stay with us.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition on
Election Day, here in the United States.

Dennis: I’m glad it’s Election Day. It’s time to vote, it’s time to count the votes, and it’s
time to get on with life.

Bob: It’s time for the long campaign to come to an end.

Dennis: It really is. And I just want to remind you, as a listener—if you haven’t voted
today / weren’t planning on voting or, maybe, you’ve lost heart in voting—I just want to
charge you: “It’s part of our responsibility, as followers of Christ, to do our civic duty as
good citizens, not only as American citizens, but also to be reminded that your
citizenship is in heaven. I just want to encourage you to put your hope in the right place.
Your hope is in the One who is our stability—the Lord God Almighty—the One who
rules heaven and earth and the One who we can trust—knows what He’s doing and will
cause all things to work together for good to those who love Him and to those who are
called according to His purpose.”

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Bob: We’re going to talk about some of the issues that are facing us, as a nation, today;
but we don’t want to talk so much about our political responsibility. We want to talk
about our spiritual responsibility, as followers of Christ, in dealing with these issues.

Dennis: That’s right. And Scott Sauls joins us on FamilyLife Today. Scott, welcome to
the broadcast.

Scott: Thanks for having me.

Dennis: Scott is from the Nashville area—at least, he is right now. He is pastor of Christ
Presbyterian Church. He and his wife Patti have been married since 1995. They have
two daughters.

Scott, as I got your book and as I dug my way through it, I couldn’t help but think about
a man who had a dramatic impact in my life from Brooklyn—his name was Tom
Skinner.

Scott: Okay.

Dennis: Tom Skinner grew up as a gang member in Brooklyn. His dad was a preacher.
Tom came to faith in Christ as a young man / a teenager, listening to the radio—gave
his life to Christ and had to walk out his gang, actually, in a very heroic way. They could
have taken his life; okay? But he and I—our paths crossed a number of years ago
when I was a junior at the University of Arkansas. I had the privilege of taking him to a
number of speaking engagements, and I got to know him quite well.

He gave me a book at the end of the time that he had written, and I’ll never forget what
he wrote in the front—he said: “Dennis, Jesus didn’t come to take sides. He came to
take over. And if we are followers of Christ, it doesn’t mean we’re here to take over.
We’re here to introduce them to the One who does take over.” That’s a little bit of what
you’re talking about in your book, Jesus Outside the Lines.

Scott: I think so. There’s a passage in Scripture that actually comes to mind when you
tell that story—you know—the general of the Israelite army—

Dennis: Yes.

Scott: —comes to the angel of the Lord or the angel of the Lord comes to the general.
The general says, “Are you on our side, or are you on our enemy’s side?” And the
angel of the Lord basically says, “No.” And the real question is, “Are we on His?” I think
that goes right along with the story you just told.

Dennis: And you’re a pastor. You’re reaching across the aisle to Republicans,
Democrats, Independents—all kinds of people with political persuasions and beliefs
about life. That’s really why you wrote this book.

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Scott: Well, politics certainly plays into it. I came into a community that was largely over
the age of 50. They were asking me to help them think about what it would look like /
what it could like to sort of recapture the imagination of the next generations of
Nashville. The vision was for an intergenerational community and that sort of thing,
which, of course, you’ve got to listen to every generation’s voice that you’re trying to
reach and to take all that into consideration.

A lot of the generational differences now between people over 45 and under 45 are
political. Many older people would say that they identify with the Republican Party
largely because of their Christian convictions. Many people under 45 would also say
they identify with their political party—the Democrat Party—because of their Christian
convictions.

So, the real question becomes on the politics question—especially in a season like the
one we’ve been in recently—the real question becomes: “Okay; what is right, and true,
and good about my politics when I put them up next to Scripture?—when I put them up
next to the vision that Jesus has for the world and for people?” I’ve also got to ask the
question, “What’s flawed about my platform?”

I think that really does raise an important question for Christians now: “Who do I feel
more solidarity with? Who do I feel more kindred with—people who share my faith but
not my politics or people who share my politics but not my faith?” If the answer is the
latter, then, I might be giving to Caesar something that belongs to God.

I think the best sort of political engagement—I don’t think the Scriptures tell us to
disengage from politics—but the best political engagement is going to be the kind that’s
willing to affirm the good on the other side and, also, critique what’s not so good on the
platform that I’m part of or the party that I’m part of.

Bob: Scott, what you’re describing has been a dividing line, not just in cities, but in
families. There have been parents and kids who, in the last political season, wound up
not speaking to one another because of the passion around which they embrace core
convictions, like the life issue or issues of injustice and poverty. They just wound up not
talking to one another.

Your book is designed to say, “We can hold views that might differ and still find a way to
be in relationship”; right?

Scott: I think so; yes. There’s this great story that I wrote about in the first chapter in
Jesus Outside the Lines—which by the way, the first chapter can be downloaded for
nothing at my website.

Bob: And by the way, if folks go to FamilyLifeToday.com, we’ve got a link there to your
website—

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Scott: Okay; terrific.

Bob: —so they can go there to find the information.

Scott: There is a story in that chapter about a kind of a pastoral moment I had with a
guy in our church during a presidential cycle—election cycle. He approached me on a
Sunday and asked to talk, sort of in the corner. I said, “Yes; what’s up?”

He said: “Well, you won’t believe what happened in my small group this past week. You
know, we’re getting ready to get into the Bible study; but we’re obviously talking about
the election that’s right around the corner. One of the women in the small group got up,
basically, and said, ‘Guys, isn’t it exciting that non-Christians are coming to our church
to hear the gospel?’ Somebody in the group said: ‘Well, what do you mean? Did you
meet somebody? Did you have a conversation with somebody who said they don’t
believe in Christ?’ She said, ‘Well no. But in the parking lot in the church, I saw several
bumper stickers supporting the other candidate.’”

The assumption that the woman was making was that “If you vote for the other party,
there is no possible way that you could be a follower of Jesus”; right? And the guy said
to me, “I didn’t have the heart to say to her, in front of the rest of the group, that it was
my bumper sticker that she was referring to.” I think that just makes the point that there
is more to it than just flat-out saying, “Republican equals Christian, and Democrat
equals anti-Christian—or vice versa.” There’s just a lot more to it. It really depends on
the issues that are weighing on our minds.

You mentioned, Bob, the life choice debate. If we’re not advocating for a comprehensive
ethic of human life, from conception all the way until death, I may call myself pro-life; but
really, what I am is pro-infant. Nothing wrong with pro-infant. In fact, it’s morally
imperative that, as Christians, we be pro-infant—we’re fearfully and wonderfully made,
knit together in our mother’s womb—but if I am pro-infant and really am willing to
dismiss the needs and concerns of the poor, and the marginalized, and—

Dennis: Right.

Scott: —aliens, and strangers, and refugees, and all of these wonderful people that
Jesus said that He came—the Spirit of the sovereign Lord is upon Him to preach good
news to the poor—then, really, we’re pro-infant more than we are pro-life. I think Christ
calls us to a pro-life ethic.

That might even account for the fact that roughly 60 percent of the women who go into
clinics, possibly for an abortion, are living under poverty. There are social pressures and
conditions that are there that need to be addressed by the church, as well, because we
remember that Jesus said to the Pharisees: “You put demands on people to keep the

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Law, but you don’t lift a finger to help them [paraphrased].” He’s critiquing the
Pharisees for a lack of compassion for people who feel stuck in bad, broken choices.

So, for the person who is comprehensively pro-life / in communities that are
comprehensively pro-life—the real question becomes, “What would it look like for the
church to change and to become such a life-giving environment for anyone and
everyone—that these women, living under poverty—think of a church before they think
of a clinic when they think of where they are going to go for refuge, and help, and
partnership in their crisis to help them move forward?”

I don’t think we’re there yet, but I think there are some really significant things that we
can do. That might bridge some of the political gaps that exist inside the church
between generations and left and right.

Dennis: I like the way you say it better than the way I’ve said it in the past. What I’ve
said in the past is: “I don’t think America’s going to see its laws changed to reflect the
dignity of human life, being pro-life and protecting the life of a baby, until we become
pro-orphan. After the baby is born, we have to move into care for it. If we could change
the laws today, would we be ready tomorrow, as a church, to care for the number of
orphans that would need to be cared for by someone?”

That’s really what the church should be all about; but I like what you said better because
you’re not just talking about pro-life / pro-baby / pro-orphan; you’re talking about making
sure those who are followers of Christ care about people from cradle to the grave.

Scott: Pro-image of God / pro-human being. You know, James, the half-brother of
Jesus, said it himself—he said, “True religion is to take care of the widow and the
orphan.” So, there’s an imperative there—a compassion imperative there—with respect
to the child in the equation; but there is also a compassion imperative, I believe, with
respect to the mother, when he includes widows and orphans in the same sentence.
You’ve got to take care of everybody in the equation who is vulnerable, and neither one
of them is expendable.

Dennis: You have two daughters, Abby and Ellie. One is a freshman in high school; the
other a freshman in college. How did you teach your daughters this; because we have a
lot of listeners, who are going, “This is a great idea; but how do I implant that kind of
teaching in the lives of the children that have been entrusted to us?”

Scott: Well, I think the Lord has taught them a lot more than I have. I mean, they listen
to my preaching—I think they pretend they don’t, but they actually really do.

But, really, I think our oldest daughter, especially, has really come alive to these justice
questions, perhaps, more than anybody in our household. When she was in high
school, she spent a lot of her volunteer time being among children with special needs.
That’s been a really significant part of her growth and development—is being around

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special needs community and contributing there. She’s spent a good part of her senior
year in high school volunteering as a tutor to the children of refugees. We’ve got a lot of
Middle Eastern Muslim refugees, especially in Nashville; and she’s made a point of
moving toward that community. She’s gone to China with Show Hope to breathe life into
the lives of very vulnerable orphans.

I think that’s really more something the Lord has instilled in her than us; but we have
cultivated and contributed to environments that create these conversations and that
hopefully help Christians wrestle with: “Well, if we prioritize this person over here, how
does it make this person vulnerable over here?” and “What would it look like to address
the vulnerabilities of everybody in the picture and not just one person?” When that
happens, the political questions become a lot less significant; because, if I am pro-life—
for the woman, who is under pressure, and living in poverty, and can’t imagine how she
can get out of this situation; but if there’s a safety net and a mechanism of care there for
her, as well as for the child—the political questions become less significant when the
church becomes fully the church on these issues.

Dennis: What marked you on this subject? I know you spent some time with Tim
Keller—in fact, almost a decade; right?—working in his church, allowing him to mentor
you.

Scott: Yes.

Dennis: Did you pick this up in New York City, where you really do have an incredible
spectrum of both poverty and wealth?

Scott: Yes. It became sort of front of the radar instead of back of the radar—just the
whole justice question. You know, Redeemer, in particular, does a terrific job
addressing poverty-related need there in the city—and just learned so much just
through observation, and participation, and the things that were going on there. The
New York environment really does press you to think comprehensively about these
issues—you don’t have a choice not to.

Dennis: You make a statement in your book that really takes it broader than just the
pro-life movement. Christians / followers of Christ, now, in this culture, are clearly not
the majority. You make a statement in your book—you say, “Christianity always
flourishes most as a life-giving minority not as a powerful majority.”

Scott: Correct. I believe that.

Dennis: Why?

Scott: Because church history verifies it—even looking all the way back to Ancient
Israel—they were a minority in Pharaoh’s Egypt. When they grew and became a nation,
they were an oppressed minority there. They did not have religious freedom. I don’t

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think Pharaoh gave them tax-exempt status for tithing to the temple any more than
Caesar gave tax-exempt status to the early church for tithing to their churches.

You know, you look at the New Testament letters—and you even just trace the life of
Paul—and you see how many letters that he wrote—he wrote from prison, because he
got put in prison because he was declaring that Jesus was Lord instead of declaring
that Caesar was lord and encouraging others to do the same. You know, you look at
Revelation—the whole New Testament it seems—is written in the context of this small
sort of fledgling minority of faithful people following Jesus, believing in the resurrection,
believing that Christ is coming back to make all things new. By the 3rd century A.D., the
entire fabric of the Roman Empire was transformed because of Christianity.

The growth of Christianity under those conditions was so frustrating to the Roman
emperors that there’s a letter that we actually have from the Roman Emperor Julian,
who writes to one of his friends, about how frustrated he is that this tribe of Christians
keeps growing, and growing, and growing: “We put their founder to death. We’ve put
their people to death. We’ve put their pastors to death. We’ve put their leaders to death;
and they keep growing, and growing, and growing,”—and here is the reason why—
“They take better care of our poor than we do. They’re not just the best kinds of friends;
they’re the best kinds of enemies, because they take better care of their enemies than
their enemies take care of each other.” There is no way you can stop a movement like
that—was really the frustration that Emperor Julian was writing about in that letter.

I think Rodney Stark, the church historian, said that—maybe, it was somebody else who
said this; but Stark may have quoted somebody else saying this—but he basically said,
“The Christians / the movement changed the world and changed the fabric of the
Roman Empire because they were infecting the world with love.” They weren’t trying to
grab positions of power.

We don’t see Jesus anywhere saying, “What you need to do is take over the
government.” In fact, He was resisting that. They wanted—His followers wanted Him to
take over and become the king. He said, “No, My kingdom is not of this world.” And
transformation is going to happen, not by pulling together a Moral Majority—and I’m
sorry; you may edit me out on that / that may offend some of your listeners. I’m just
speaking out of conviction here—but nowhere do we see Christ saying, “Pull together a
Moral Majority, and you’ll take over the culture.” Rather, He seems to be just constantly
thinning out the crowds through difficult preaching—like the Sermon on the Mount and
through the faithful—you see the world changing as they love their neighbors better
than their neighbors love each other.

It’s interesting— in Acts 2, where it talks about how Christians were living their life
together—it says that they are enjoying the favor of all the people. There was something
about the quality of their life—even in this environment, where it wasn’t even physically
safe to be a Christian because the government was so threatened by this movement of
love—but they were still seen as a value-add by their communities, and by their cities,

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and by their neighbors, even though their beliefs—I love what Russell Moore says,
“Even though what we believe is really weird—that the hope of the universe rests on the
shoulders of a poor, ancient, Middle Eastern carpenter, born to a virgin teenager—and
yet, you can’t argue with the fruit that’s come out of the Jesus movement.”

I scratch my head a little bit and, sometimes, ask myself, “Are we, Christians, paying
attention to the Bible when we get so worked up and intense about politics and when we
get worked up and we start to think that the world is coming to an end if So-and-so gets
in office?”

Now, here is the question—I mean: “What one man or what one woman has the power
to thwart the plans of God?” I think that’s the question we have to ask; but the gospel
has always seemed to thrive the most when it was hard to be a Christian, not when it
was easy.

When Constantine declared in Rome that Christianity was going to be acceptable and a
religion that we should all embrace, that’s when nominal Christianity started to happen;
and that’s when the decline of Christianity’s impact on Rome started to happen because
Constantine, himself, was a pretty bad Christian.

Dennis: Yes; I’ll never forget a quote by a preacher from Florida—he said, “The
problem with Christians today is no one wants to kill them anymore.” They weren’t true
Christ-followers at the level we need today. That’s what I’d challenge our listeners—
whether you are a single person, a husband, a wife, a mom, or a dad, training the next
generation—is to courageously decide to follow Jesus Christ and get in the Book that
represents Him best. I’m sorry, Scott, that’s not your book—that’s the Bible.

Scott: [Laughter] It’s not. I’ll agree with you on it.

Dennis: I thought you might do that. And then, I think we need to be thinking, biblically,
and training our children to think, holistically, as they approach the needs of the culture
and not be afraid to step out and pierce the darkness and stand for something rather
than stand against something.

Bob: Well, I think it does help for us to ask the question: “Why do people hold a view
different than ours, and what are the values that are driving those? In what ways can I
resonate with those values?”—I mean, to get on the other side of the desk and maybe
understand your opponent a little better. You talk about that in the book, Jesus Outside
the Lines.

We’ve got copies of that book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go to
our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to request a copy; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY—ask
about the book, Jesus Outside the Lines, by Scott Sauls—A Way Forward for Those
Who Are Tired of Taking Sides. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and our
toll-free number is 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

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Now, it was 24 years ago today that C.D. and Tressie Gulick of Eureka, Kansas,
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Now, tomorrow, we’re going to continue to talk about how our lives ought to reflect our
pledge of allegiance to the King of kings and Lord of lords, even in the midst of an
election cycle. Scott Sauls will be back with us again tomorrow. Hope you can be with
us as well.

I want to thank our engineer today, Justin Adams, along with our entire broadcast
production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I’m Bob Lepine. We will see you
back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today.
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