Kimball Handout

KIMBALL PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT
PRELIMINARY WORKING DRAFT
MASTERING
CALL BACK
INTERVIEWS
Frank Kimball
Fall 2009
© 2009 FRANK KIMBALL - KIMBALL PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT FRANK @KIMBALL PROFESSIONAL .COM 773-528-7548
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SUMMARY OF CONTENTS
I. Detailed Table of Contents ................................. iii
II. Foreword and Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

A. Program Philosophy and Approach . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
B. Seven Questions Facing Firms and Lawyers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
III. Call Back Interviews: The Students Side of the Desk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

A. Know your strengths and limitations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
B. The Value and ROI Of preparation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19
C. The Day of the Interview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27
D. Questions to Ask Associates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
E. Questions for Partners . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
F. Answering Questions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36
G. Questions You May be Asked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37
H. Distill Debrief Compare and Decide . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43
I. Can I find a Perfect Firm? .................................... 47
J. Split Summers .......................................... 50
K. Negative Selling - A Dangerous Tactic ............................. 51
IV. M iscellaneous Issues for Students ............................ 50

A. A Cautionary Note ........................................ 53
B. If a firm says no offer ...................................... 59
C. Establish credibility in Chicago ................................. 61
D. Volunteering Information .................................... 62
E. ......................
Special Challenges for Students at Leading Schools 62
F. Essential Reading About Chicago ................................ 62
G. Reading About the Profession .................................. 63
H. W hat to W ear ........................................... 70
I. Can W e Banish “Like”? ..................................... 73
J. Telephone M anners ....................................... 74
K. E Mail Etiquette ......................................... 75
L. Event Etiquette .......................................... 76
M. For Students Com paring Firms and Cities ........................... 77
V. M aster the Firm ’s Side of the Process .......................... 79

A. Preparation ............................................ 79
B. Evaluation ............................................ 83
C. Eliciting Facts W ithout Initiation ................................ 87
D. Selling the Firm ......................................... 88
E. ...............
W hat Students Believe: A W alk through the garden of hearsay 91
F. Answer questions Persuasively ................................. 92
G. Hot Issues this Fall . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 93
1. Recession and Recovery ................................ 93
2. Mergers ......................................... 94
3. Split Summers ...................................... 95
4. Part Time W ork ..................................... 95
5. Salaries and Bonuses .................................. 95
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6. Parental Leave ..................................... 95

7. How Deals and Cases are staffed ........................... 96
8. Specialization ...................................... 96
9. Chargeable Hours .................................... 96
10. Early Responsibility .................................. 96
VI. The Art of the M eal ..................................... 97

A. Effective Call Back M eals .................................... 97
B. Post Offer Follow Up and Entertainment ........................... 99
VII. Sensitive Issues . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102

A. Offensive or Discriminatory Questions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102
B. Asking About Relationships and Personal Lives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 103
C. Negative Selling is Dead on Arrival . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 104
VIII. Recruiting and Recession Realities in 2009 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 106
A. The Recession Arrives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -106-
B. Some Firms Prosper During a Recession . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -107-
C. Law Firm Mismanagement 101 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -108-
D. How Not To Save Money In A Recession . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -109-
E. Post-Recession Life In America’s Leading Firms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -112-
F. Partner Departures - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -115-
G. Involuntary Partner Departures - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -116-
H. Voluntary Partner Departures . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -117-
I. Firm-wide layoffs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -118-
J. Mistakes Firms Make in Associate Layoffs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -120-
K. Lessons from Corporate America . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -120-
L. Lessons from the Cadwalader Experience . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -120-
M. W hat W ill Change this Fall . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -123-
N. W ild Cards This Fall . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -124-
O. The 45 Day Rule - Its Real Impact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -125-
P. W hat Should A Student do? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -126-
Q. Lateral Hiring In The Recession- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -126-
R. Partner Lateral Hiring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -128-
S. Practice in 2033 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 129-
IX. W hat You Need to Know About Law Firm s ....................... 133
A. Structure ............................................ 133
B. Management .......................................... 135
C. Hours .............................................. 139
D. Partnership ........................................... 145
E. ................................
A Place to Go - A Place to Leave 144
F. Law Firm Mergers ....................................... 145
G. Law Firm Failures ....................................... 147
X. Appendix A - Students M ost Common Questions About Callback Interviews ... 153
XI. Kimball Professional Management

A. Services for Law Firms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 157
B. Services for Lawyers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 161
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Detailed Table of Contents
Foreword & Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1-
PROGRAM PH ILOSOPH Y & APPROACH
What These Materials Will Teach You . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1-

How to Use This Text . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -2-
You Can Do This . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -3-
You Must do This . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -3-
Put 2009 In Perspective . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -3-
Seven Questions Facing Firms and Lawyers
Why Do Students Choose Large, Famous Firms? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -6-

There is nothing wrong with not working in private practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . -7-
Don’t use the Career Services Offices as a punching bag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -8-
How Valuable Is Your Career? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -8-
What Burdens Face Students From The Nation's Best Schools? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -12-
Why Firms Must Compete For Students — Call Back Calculus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -13-
Why Do Firms Rely on Entry-Level Hiring? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -14-
How Does Turnover Effect Entry-level Hiring? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -17-
Call Back Interviews The Student's Side of the Desk
Know Your Strengths & Limitations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -18-

ASSERTIVENESS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -18-
WRITING ABILITY AND SPEAKING ABILITY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -18-
MEM BERSH IP ON A JOU RNAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -18-
A CAPACITY AND ENTH USIASM FOR EXCELLENCE AND H ARD W ORK . . . . . . . . . . . . . -18-
TH E CAPACITY TO W ORK W ELL W ITH O THERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -18-
HOW IM PORTAN T ARE GRAD ES ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -19-
A FINAL NOTE ON STRENGTH S & WEAKNESSES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -19-
B. TH E VALU E AN D ROI OF PREPARATION — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -19-

RESEARCH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -20-
FIRM WEBSITES AN D BROCH URES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -21-
NALP REPO RTS AN D FORM S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -23-
VAULT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -24-
ABOVE TH E LAW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -25-
LEGAL MEDIA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -25-
AM ERICAN LAW YER SURVEYS OF SUM M ER ASSOCIATES & ASSOCIATES . . . . . . . . . -25-
BU SIN ESS AN D NATIONAL MEDIA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -26-
BEW ARE TH E “CLOSER ” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -26-
FRIEN DS AN D ROOM M ATES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -26-
LAW SCH OOL GRAPEVINE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -26-
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Friends of Friends — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -26-

Greedy Associates Boards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -27-
The Day of the Interview - Serve & Volley

W hy The Relaxed W ell Prepared Student W ill Prevail . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -27-
Calling Central Casting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -28-

Know your interviewer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -29-
Adjust your questions to the interviewer. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -29-
Sm all things m atter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -29-
A Plan of Attack — Prepare, Observe, Assim ilate, React, Respond . . . . . . . . . -29-
Be An Active, Inquisitive, Interviewee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -30-
Scan The Battlefield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -30-
W hat Areas are "Off Lim its"? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -30-
Questions to Ask Associates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -31

Areas of Interest and Inquiry for Students
Sum m er Program . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
Econom ics . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
Evaluation and Developm ent . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
H ours Lifestyle and Diversity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
Firm M anagem ent- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
Be An Active (Not Scripted) Cross Exam iner . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -32-
The Interviewee 3 Step — Ask-listen-follow up . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -32-
W hy I am asking these questions? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -32
Tell m e about your im portant cases / transactions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33
H ow are cases and transactions staffed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33
H ow does the evaluation process work? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
H ow has the firm been effected by the recession . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
Tell m e About Supervision, M entoring and training . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
Do you believe the support systems are strong and effective? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
Questions To Ask Partners . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. -34

Practice Developm ent Challenges . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 35
M arketing and Business Developm ent . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 35
M ajor Cases and Transactions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 35
Evaluation Systems for Partners and Associates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 35
The M ost Im portant Factors in Hiring and Prom otion Decisions . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 35
H ow will firm change in the future? W hy? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 35
Associate Com pensation System s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 35
W hat do firm s do to control expenses? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. . 36
Turning The Tables: Answering Questions . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . . ....... . . ....... . ... -36-
"Tim e Of Possession" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . . ....... . . ....... . ... -36-
H ow is the Question Asked? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . . ....... . . ....... . ... -36-
Listen to the Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . . ....... . . ....... . ... -36-
Answer the Question - Directly and Briefly . . . . . ....... . . ....... . . ....... . ... -36-
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Questions You M ay Be Asked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -37

Grades . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 37
Prior W ork Experience . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37
W hy you are interviewing in this city . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37
W hat can I tell you about the firm ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38
W hat will you be doing 10 years from now . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38
H ow do you feel about long hours, travel, dem anding clients . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38
Your background is in history / poli sci. W ill you fit in here . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39
W hy do you want to be a lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39
W hat is your greatest weakness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39
W hat is the toughest problem you’ve handled this year? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39
W hat is your husband’s profession? Do you have children? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
W ould you like to go out w ith m e after the interview? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
W hat is the biggest disappointment you’ve overcom e? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41
W hat do you want to accom plish as a lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41
W hat are your long term professional goals? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41
H ave your goals changed since you arrived in law school? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P:age 42
Are You A Team Player? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42
H ave you had an unsatisfactory w ork experience? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42
W hat cities are you considering? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42
W hat firm s are you considering?> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42
W hat are your practice area interests? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42
Debrief, Distill, Com pare & Decide . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -43-
Debrief and Record Im pressions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -43-

Self-Evaluation - How Did I Perform ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -44-
Adm inistrative Details . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -44-
Thank You Notes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -45-
W aiting for Godot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -45-
Follow Up Visits . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -45-
Cut through the recruiting haze and get specific inform ation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -46-
M ake the Decision . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -46-
If you are rejected by a firm , accept the news and m ove on. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -46-
If you run into serial rejection . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -46-
Can I Find A “Perfect” Firm ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -47-
Split Sum m ers —Attractive But Dangerous . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -50-
Negative Selling - A Dangerous, M isleading, Tactic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -51-
Beyond OCI: Strategies In The 2009 M arket

A Cautionary Note . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -59-
If A Firm Says “No Offer” This Sum m er . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -59-
Establish Credibility in Chicago . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -61-
Volunteering Inform ation to Enhance Credibility . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -62-
Apparent Com m itm ent . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -62-
The Special Challenge For Students At Top 15 Schools . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -62-
Essential Reading About Chicago . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -62-
-vi-
READING ABOUT TH E PRO FESSIO N AN D INTERVIEW ING . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -63-

Give Me A Break Frank! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -65-
Kim ball Publications And Personal Advice For Students . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . -66-
Do It Now - Not Tom orrow - Not Next Year - Do It In Bite Sized Pieces . . . ....... . -69-
W hat To W ear And W hy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . -70-
Can W e, Like, Totally Banish “Like”? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . -73-
Telephone M anners 101 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . -74-
Event Etiquette . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . -75-
E-M ail Etiquette . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . -76-
For Students Still Com paring Firms and Cities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....... . -77-
Master The Firm's Side of the Interview Desk

A. Prepare . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -79-
Know The School and the Student . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -79-
2. Control The Interview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -80-
3. Allocate Tim e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -81-
4. Careful, Com prehensive Notes
............................................................ -83-
B. Evaluate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -83-
Traits of Successful Lawyers — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -84-
H ave You Prejudged the Student? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -84-
Is the Student Am bitious, Determ ined, and A Hard W orker? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -84-
Is the Student Sm art Enough? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -84-
Is the Student An Achiever or Just a Joiner? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -85-
Are You Using Brainpow er To Excuse Lousy Personal Skills? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -85-
Is the Student Serious About The Firm ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -85-
Does the Student Have a Pulse? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -85-
Does The Student Have Credible Ties to Our City? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -86-
Does the Student Have Strong People skills? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -86-
Is The Student Com m itted To Private Practice In Our Type of Firm ? . . . . . . . . . . . . -86-
C, Elicit Facts — Don’t Intim idate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-

Establish Com m on Ground . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-
Tell the Student where You are Heading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-
M aintain Control . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-
Ask Open-Ended Questions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-
Listen and Follow up — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-
Exam ine Relevant Core Experiences . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-
Avoid Leading Questions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-
Stress Tactics . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -88-
The Gift of Silence . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -88-
C. Sell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -88-

1. Listen to Students’ Needs . . . . . .... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -88-
2. You Are The Law Firm . . . . . . . .... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -89-
3. Sell The Strengths of the Firm ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -90-
D. W hat Students Believe - A W alk Through The Garden of Hearsay . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -91-
E. Answer Questions Persuasively . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -92-

1. Can you answ er basic questions about the Firm ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -92-
2. Answer General Questions W ith Specific Experiences . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -92-
-vii-
3. Listen to the Unstated Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -92-
F. Hot Issues This Fall - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -93-

1. The Recession And Recovery . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -93-
2. M ergers / Expansion / Consolidation / Closures . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -94-
3.Split Sum m ers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -95-
4. Part-tim e W ork . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -95-
5.Salaries And Bonuses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -95-
6.Parental Leave . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -95-
7. How are Cases or Deals Staffed? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -96-
8. Specialization . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -96-
9. Chargeable Hours . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -96-
10. W hat is Early Responsibility? How Can I Get it? . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -96-
III. The Art of the M eal - Follow Up and Closure
A. Effective Call Back M eals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-

1.Rem em ber the Purpose . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-
2.Keep it Sm all . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-
3.Prepare . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-
4. Venue . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-
5. Schedule . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-
6. Atm osphere & Privacy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-
7.Reservations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -98-
8.Alcohol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -98-
9. Don’t You Just Love Tandoori / Calam ari/ Sushi . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -98-
10.Tone and Structure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -98-
11.W hat You Can Still Learn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -98-
12. W hat To Pass Along To The Hiring Partners . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -98-
13. Reporting and Debriefing? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -99-
B. Post Offer Follow-Up & Entertainm ent . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . . -99-
1. W hy entertain or Follow up? — . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . . -99-
2. W hen to Contact The Student . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . . -99-
3. The Point Person . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -100-
4. Frequency . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -100-
5. M ailing — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -100-
6. Calling . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -100-
7. W hat is Reasonable? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -100-
8. Venue . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -100-
9. Size . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -101-
10. Expense . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -101-
11. Novel Ideas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -101-
12. Return Visits . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -101-
13. Coordinating . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -101-
14. Enough is Enough! — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . -101-
C. Offensive or Discrim inatory Questions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -102-
D. Asking About Relationships & Personal Lives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -103-
E. Negative Selling Is Dead On Arrival — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -104-
-viii-
Recruiting and Recession Reality - How the 2009 Market Changes Recruiting, Interviewing,
and Decisions
The Recession Arrives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -106-

Som e Firm s Prosper During a Recession . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -107-
Law Firm M ism anagem ent 101 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -108-
H ow Not To Save M oney In A Recession . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -109-
Post-Recession Life In Am erica’s Leading Firm s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -112-
Partner Departures - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -115-
Involuntary Partner Departures - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -116-
Voluntary Partner Departures . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -117-
firm -wide layoffs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -118-
M istakes Firm s M ake in Associate Layoffs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -120-
Lessons from Corporate Am erica . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -120-
Lessons from the Cadwalader Experience . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -120-
W hat W ill Change this Fall . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -123-
W ild Cards This Fall . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -124-
The 45 Day Rule - Its Real Im pact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -125-
W hat Should A Student do? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -126-
Lateral Hiring In The Recession- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -126-
Partner Lateral Hiring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -128-
Practice in 2033 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -129-
What You Need to Know About Law Firms

A. The Basic Structure — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -133-
How are fees set, charged, and collected? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -133-
The Economic Machine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -133-
How are associates paid? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -134-
How Are Partners Paid? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -134-
B. H ow Are Firm s M anaged? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -135-

1. W hat Are All These Committees? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -135-
2. W hat is the Difference Between A Department, Practice Group, Cluster or Team? . . . . . . . . . . -136-
3. How Is W ork Distributed to Younger Lawyers? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -136-
4. How are associates evaluated? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -137-
5. W hat Do Firms W ant in New Associates? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -137-
6. W hy Do Associates Succeed and Fail? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -138-
C. Hours - The Real (And Tough) Story . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -139-

D. Partnership . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -145-
E. A Place To Go - A Platform - A Place To Leave . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -145
F. Law Firm Mergers - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -145-
G. Law Firm Failures - W hat Students Should Understand & Fear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -147-
Conclusion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -152-
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Appendix A — Students' Most Common Questions About Callback Interviews
What is a call back? What is the law firm trying to accomplish? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -153-
Ten firm s have invited m e for call backs. W hat should I do? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -153-
Only two firm s invited me after 20 interviews on campus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -153-
W hen should I schedule call backs? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -153-
W ho handles travel and schedule arrangem ents? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -153-
W ho w ill interview m e? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -153-
W hat About Attire? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -154-
Do I need a haircut? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -154-
W hat should I bring with me to the interview? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -154-
W hat about “stress interviews”? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -154-
W here are the over the top jerks I've heard about? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -154-
I am confused and overwhelm ed! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -155-
W ill I be asked about my grades? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -155-
W ill I be asked about my previous work experience? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -155-
I am an older student - will that hurt or help? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -155-
W hat Are M y Chances? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -155-
H ow do firms m ake offer decisions? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -155-
W hat about references and w riting sam ples? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -156-
M y school places few graduates in m y first choice city. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -156-
W hat other practical tips can you give m e? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -156-
About Kimball Professional Management
Services for Law Firms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 157
Services for Lawyers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 161
1
Foreword & Introduction
am delighted to present this program on Mastering Call Back Interviews. This program and
I
this text will teach you a novel inside-out approach which will let you master the process by
understanding interviews from both sides of the table. Receiving call backs from law firms is
a watershed moment in your life as a law student. So you have my congratulations and best
wishes on finishing the first step of the fall interview process. Now is not a time for
complacency - or a time for fear and apprehension. Rather it is time to prepare for success in the call
back interview. Invest yourself in the process so that you interview effectively receive job offers
understand your options and make a decision that is right for you.
When Duke has a lead against UNC going into the 4th quarter it knows not to begin
celebrations too early (no matter how far the Tarheels have fallen since the departure of #23 and the
retirement of Dean Smith). When Michigan leads Ohio State by 14 points with 10 minutes on the clock,
it's not time (yet) to book tickets to Pasadena. So I'll permit you a moment of celebration - but then
it's time to get back to work. Don't be so eager to interview that you forget to prepare. Each fall the first
question asked by the players on my little league football team is “When are we going to scrimmage?”1
They want to play the game to badly that they'd just as soon skip practice and start banging heads.
Without getting too philosophical - it is on the practice field that victory is born. And it is in the
preparation for interviews that you will find your voice, your center, and your ability to master this
process.
This program is part of a series of programs and texts presented by Kimball Professional
Management at Harvard, Michigan, Northwestern, Indiana, Georgetown, Duke, Virginia, Loyola
Chicago, Indiana, and other schools. This text is a preliminary draft . Please write, e-mail, or call
with comments or suggestions. This text contains the opinions of the author and is not the official
or unofficial opinion of the Career Services Offices at the law schools where this firm presents
programs. To schedule programs for your law firm or law school, please call or e-mail Frank
Kimball. Frank@KimballProfessional.com 773-528-7548.
Program Philosophy & Approach
This program will teach you to understand employers' needs, expectations, concerns, and objectives.
By learning to think like an employer and to understand how they assess and sell students you will be
far more effective in a call back interview. In dancing you must understand your partner. In most
sports you must understand and analyze your opponent's strategies and tactics. In the court room
1
For years I've coached little league football and basketball for the Menomonee Club for Boys and
Girls, a 55 year old Chicago organization that runs leagues in everything from football to fencing, from basketball
to baseball, from ballet to scouting. Each year more than 6,000 kids are involved. Each year my team finishes 1 st 2d
or 3d in a surprisingly competitive league - last year finishing a close second — falling short 25-22 on the last play
of a game where the lead changed hands 8 times. Every year I try to come up with an inspirational slogan for the
team - past favorites have included “Som ebody's got to take out the trash,” “Life's a journey -welcome to the off
ramp,” and “If it bleeds it can die.” And yes, the youngsters know that football is a religion - and Saturday's the holy
day of obligation - the first thing one learns in the Big House.
2
before you argue a case to a jury you must understand your adversary in order to make your case. To
master call backs you must master the person on the other side of the table.
Amidst all of the excitement of the fall call back season you may feel as if you are
trapped in a time warp of undergraduate rush week. Events, entertainment, lavish dinners, fawning
firms, blizzards of offers - can make even the most capable students swoon. Last year you were trained
to spot issues — legal culinary athletic and otherwise with a dose of skepticism — so much so that you
may greet this good news with apprehension. What if the firm does not like me? What if I blow it?
What if firms discover that dank dark residue of mediocrity that I've concealed for twenty some years?
What if I don't know what to say, what to wear, what to think? I'm the first lawyer in my family - how
can I possibly sell myself to a business I do not understand. Even the best and the brightest will
experience some Meatmucil moments this Fall. I offer my congratulations - tempered by the caution
that there is much more work to do. If you invest yourself in understanding and mastering this process
you will emerge successfully having made a sound first step in the legal profession.
What These Materials Will Teach You
First you will learn you a market-driven inside-out approach to call back interviews where you
will learn how to interview by understanding employers concerns, tactics, methods, and
objectives. Once you understand the employer's side of the table, you will be a far more
effective interviewee. In athletics, advocacy, negotiation, and almost any other human
endeavor - the best results are achieved once you understand the person or team across the
table.
Second, they introduce you to core management, financial, and other issues which impact
entry-level hiring decisions. A base line understanding of firm organization, compensation,
management, and market issues such as mergers and expansion will help you.
You will understand how the recession impacts law firm hiring - lateral and entry level - and
how it may effect long-term opportunities in the profession
Third, they guide you step-by-step-through preparation, presentation, question and answer,
and the decision making process.
Fourth, they encourage you to face the tough issues head on including choosing cities
selecting practice areas deciding whether to follow the crowd to the proto typical major
national law firm wrestling with your inner ambitions and fears addressing the inherent
and important conflicts between this wonderful but demanding profession and everything else
on the table of life..
How to Use This Text—
There is no simple four page how to do it guide to call back interviews. To compete effectively and
have the widest range of options available you must invest yourself in the process. To be sure there is
some heavy lifting involved. But it's not an impossible task. Load this text on to your laptop for easy
reference now and later in the season. As a PDF file you can easily search for subjects - or just use the
detailed table of contents or the index. First, read the text in one two or three hour sitting - with
a highlighter pen in one hand and your favorite beverage in the other. Put the remote control down
3
for the time being - this will be plenty of time after call backs are over to watch Michigan in the BCS
or to revel in another Duke basketball victory.2 Second, when call backs are a week away review the
sections that are important to you - thoroughly. Third, re visit the sections dealing with the firm's
point of view. Fourth, revisit the materials after call backs are over with special attention to the
sections on sorting, deciding, and dealing with follow up.
You Can Do This -
The first year of law school taught you how to master a new facts, new rules, and emerge as an expert
on the subject. You learn to identify issues, compare theories, test the credibility of witnesses, and
apply the facts to the law. This is your first case - and your most important - because you are your own
client. You are the fiduciary of your own career. No one else will take the time and energy to do the
heavy lifting necessary to figure out what is right. Comparing law firms and making career decisions
is important -but it is not neuro-surgery. It is something everyone has to do as they chart a course in
life. Differentiating between fact and fiction, rumor and reality, facts important to others and facts
important to you, are all skills that you have developed. Let's put them to use.
While it is tempting to assume that life is just too jammed to do anything more to
prepare for interviews than panic, dash, grab a view quick pages from a website, and hope for the best,
you have a chance to make a profound impact on the short and long-term professional opportunities
which will be available to you. No matter what your class standing, no matter where you go to law
school, no matter whether you are the first lawyer in your family or one of dozens — the fall of your
second year is a unique moment when you can take steps that will have a profound impact on your life
1, 5, 15, and 30 years from now.
Certainly a law student's life is as or more jammed today than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
Course loads are heavy. So are the demands of extra curricular activities - moot court, journals,
clinical programs, student organizations, and charitable activities — not to mention building the
personal relationships that will last a lifetime in your professional career. Just when you thought you
could not handle more - here comes OCI followed by call backs - a torrent of interviews, receptions,
letters, resumes, and all the rest. One hundred sixty-eight hours a week does not seem like enough. But
this former hiring partner knows that you can reap enormous dividends from a disciplined insightful
approach to call back interviewing.
You Must do This -
Were Prosser the Assistant Dean for Career Services he might develop another “Last Clear Chance”
rule that goes something like this: your second year in law school is the first, last, and only time you
will have where the time is structured, the employers are lined up to serve you, and the market has
some semblance of rationality. As a lateral hire 2-40 years down the road, NALP's guidelines on offers
and deadlines won't be there to protect you. Only some firms will be in the market for a lawyer of your
2
Readers who have too much interest in Ivy League football are encouraged to seek help.
Im mediately. Great small private schools occasionally make surprising contributions to football. One of M ichigan's
greatest debts of gratitude is to the University of Chicago. In 1898, Michigan edged Chicago 12-11, inspiring Louis
Elbel, a M ichigan m usic student, to compose Hail to the Victors, one of the two best college football marches in
America. W hat other song is also ranked #1 or #2? I told you we are not going to say Notre Dame again. Just 38-0.
They'll get the message. W hat does this have to do with call backs? Nothing. I just thought you should know.
4
experience. And you will have to make a choice between firms A and B without knowing what, if
anything might have been said by firms C through Z (because they are late to respond or simply are
not in the market when you want to make a move).
Put 2009 In Perspective -
When you first thought about applying to law school, I doubt if you anticipated the tidal wave of
economic, military, and political events which have overtaken this country - and which impact your
professional opportunities. In September, 2000 who could have suspected that during the next four
years America would experience a significant recession a collapse of the financial markets that has
a direct impact on the flow of corporate /securities / related work a massive terrorist attacks wars
in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other nations an electoral crisis in Florida the collapse of the world's 7th
largest economy - California, etc. On a lighter note not many of us would have foreseen a White Sox
World Series victory reality TV Paris Hilton YouTube or the blogosphere.
I wish you success in your quest this Fall. But more than that I wish you peace as all of
us struggle to understand 9-11, the recession, the war, and how all of that effects our short and long-
term personal and professional plans. It is a time for prayer, reflection and dedication to helping our
fellow American. Be patient with the bumps of life - and be patient with matching your dreams and
expectations to a world which has changed permanently. I have tremendous confidence in this
generation of law students — and just as much in the men and women who must make the decisions
and take the action to protect all of us.
Talk with relatives who survived the Holocaust, Depression and the Second World War
about perseverance and patience. Though some of the younger generation may not know or appreciate
it - I have no doubt that the professionals of this country will be a key component in unleashing an
unprecedented era of ingenuity, cooperation, and growth. Study the history of the American law firm,
and the contributions its members have made during trying times - as soldiers, sailors and marines -
and as those who serve in government. Study the history of both World Wars and you'll see that the
core economy changed, evolved, and prospered in ways that were literally unimaginable in the pre-war
economies of 1914 and 1940. When a global crisis compels Americans to cooperate, and unleashes
their ingenuity and creativity in pursuit of a common objective, the results are astonishing.
As someone who has studied law firm hiring patterns and economics for 26 years, I
believe that the long-term view for well-managed national law firms is exceptionally bright. Please
remember that private practice in a large law firm is just one of many options. Yes, it offers greater
immediate economic rewards. But among the alumni of the nation’s finest schools are thousands of
lawyers who have chosen other equally fulfilling and rewarding paths - government service, teaching,
management consulting, starting and owning businesses, the arts, public interest, and others. There
is no one right answer. There is no path free from doubt, insecurity or risk.
Services for Law Firms and Lawyers
Kimball Professional Management is the only legal search firm in the nation founded by
the former hiring partner of an AmLaw 50 firm. We work with leading firms in Chicago, New York,
California and Washington, D.C. on retained and contingent fee searches for practice groups, partners and
associates. We advise leading law firms on entry-level and lateral hiring, compensation, and professional
development. We have placed partners, associates, and practice group leaders with more than 30 law
5
firms in Chicago. We have provided training and consulting services for more than 20 of the nation’s 200
largest firms.
Please call Frank Kimball at any time to discuss your career concerns as a lawyer or to discuss
services needed by your firm. We do not recruit lawyers from our law firm clients and when we
cannot work with a lawyer we are pleased to refer you to another exceptional search firm in
Chicago. Our conversations and work together are completely confidential.
We work only with candidates who we believe will excel over the long term in some of the most
selective law firms in the United States. We work with a short list of lawyers and firms - this
gives both the firm client and the lawyer the 1:1 service essential to making the right decision
at the right time.
We take pride in long-term placements. The first lawyer placed - a second year associate at the
time -became a partner in the same premier Chicago firm and practiced there for 15 years.
Eight five percent of the partners we have placed still practice with the same firm. The
average longevity of associate placements is 4.75 years - more than twice the industry average.
Many placed associates have later been promoted to partner with the law firm client where
they were placed.
We are committed to diversity. More than 50 percent of the lawyers placed by this firm are
women. More than 15 percent are members of minority groups. The first lawyer placed in 1994
was a minority woman associate. We have placed openly gay associates, partners, and practice
group leaders. We believe that diversity is more than a tag line — it is a priority.
For more information on services for law firms, see pages 157-160. For information on services
for lawyers, see pages 161-168. For biographical information on the author, please see page 166.
A Personal Note
After leaving Ann Arbor in 1977, I practiced with Shearman & Sterling in New York for
more than eight years and with McDermott, Will & Emery in Chicago for six years, where I ran its
summer programs and served as its national hiring partner. I opened Kimball Professional
Management t o work with firms, schools, attorneys, and students on all aspects of lateral and entry-
level hiring. Since 1992, I’ve worked with hiring partners, attorneys, and recruiting coordinators at
Chicago’s leading firms and studied the trends, competitive forces, and economic issues facing
attorneys and firms. It’s been interesting, enjoyable, and challenging placing lawyers, advising firms,
and working with students at many of the nation’s leading law schools. Since 1977, I've interviewed
more than 9,500 law students and lawyers and interviewed or presented programs at more than 25
law schools. Each year I visit several leading schools and have the privilege of meeting with hundreds
of students from Harvard, Michigan, Northwestern, Illinois, Duke, Georgetown, Virginia, Indiana,
Loyola Chicago, and Columbia.. I have every reason to believe that your first steps in the profession
will be enjoyable, productive, rewarding, and interesting.
August 30, 2009 Frank Kimball
6
Seven Questions Facing Firms and Lawyers
By now your impatience is almost clinical. You want to know how to interview. But first
you must know what is on the mind of the interviewer. The unspoken sub-text of the dialogue between
law firm and law student reflects a series of concerns about the market for new lawyers and the market
for legal services. Before reaching for the Xanax, micro brew, Chardonnay, or shredder, consider how
the minuet of entry-level hiring is effected by student preferences, economic trends, law firm
management objectives and other factors. The more you understand the driving forces behind law firm
hiring practices, the better equipped you will be to handle call back interviews. Law firms do not come
to campus to perform a public service for the nation's law schools. They come to campus because they
need human capital. In a nation of more than one million lawyers, there is a profound shortage of
entry-level and experienced talent. Just as there are millions of Americans who can play baseball or
softball - but only a few thousand in the major leagues - only a small slice of the nation's law school
graduates are a good fit for the typical major national firm.
Amidst the tumult of the Fall every law student should pause to ask a few questions
about their ambitions, fears, and dreams How hard do I want to work? How ambitious am I?
What are my greatest dreams or fears about the legal professions? Why do I really feel drawn to large
law firm practice? Do I want to be a national leader in a demanding specialty area? How do I plan
to reconcile my personal/family interests with the demands of the profession?
Sorting out all of these issues is heavy lifting - and there are no absolute right or wrong
answers. But before you dive into the deep end of the pool or large law firm practice along with 75-80%
of your classmates it is worthwhile asking why you are doing this. If you feel that your temperament,
ambition, desire to work hard, or interest in representing corporate America does not fit with large
firm practice - stop now before you de-rail your career. The expectations, pace, demands, focus, and
economic imperatives of private practice will not change to accommodate your desire.
A. Why Do Students Choose Large, Famous Firms?
One of the most controversial subjects discussed behind closed doors in schools and firms is why
students at the nation's leading schools begin their careers in the nation's largest and most famous law
firms. Many students enter their first year with no clear idea of where they intend to practice but with
a vague notion that they will be different and select the less profitable path of a life outside the cocoon
of the large law firm. Yet by October of the second year 75% of students at the best schools focus on
a narrow band of firms. Why does this happen?
Law students are risk averse and tend to follow the crowd - both this year's crowd and the
shadow cast by earlier generations.
The cost of law school (and college) forces students toward high income career choices - many
students graduate with $50-150,000 in debt and must work for high-paying law firms.
Peer pressure - don't discount the importance of bragging rights among peers - this factor
continues to play a role throughout one's career. The deafening drumbeats of 'who-got-in-
where-and-who-did-not' have a powerful influence on the intensely competitive communities
in the nation's best law schools.
7
Following the 'herd' - law firms often have good or bad seasons based simply on friends
following friends to certain firms - think advanced concepts of fraternity / sorority rush.
Because that is who comes to campus - the high paying for-profit employers dominate the
scene on campus. Many mid-size and small firms will not interview on campus at Top 10
schools because they know they will come up empty interviewing against the mega firms.
Because this choice looks better than other alternatives - which may include risk, less income,
or the possibility of critical remarks from other students.
Because large law firms, for all of their perceived shortcomings, give exceptional training -
not the kind that comes from class rooms or conference centers - but the kind that comes from
learning your craft at the elbow of the masters of the trade. Law firms invest heavily in
recruiting in terms of cash and time - and no matter how you may perceive their limitations
they are masters at persuading students to accept offers. It's really client marketing 'lite.' Their
skill in this area trumps any effort that may be launched by government or public service /
public interest employers.
Many law students are the first in the family to practice law and have little understanding of
what the profession has to offer. The predictable course seems more comfortable.
Law students are ambitious and competitive — and the notion of “getting into XYZ” plays into
their competitive nature. If the best and the brightest are going the mega firm route, they may
feel compelled to take the same course so they won't seem to be a 'lesser person.'
Because it is an easier decision to make. Even though this is one of the most important
decisions of their life - the buffet table of law school is jammed to the point of being a groaning
board. It is just easier to take the risk averse job with a large law firm than to do the spade work
necessary to find an opportunity that does not appear during campus interviews.
Are Students Shlemmings™ ?- This rare animal is a genetic mutation of a sheep and a
lemming and can sometimes be found at premier national law schools during the Fall hiring season.
Students who have been given the freedom to dream suddenly focus on a handful of firms in a few
markets. They become so self-absorbed that they define happiness (and bragging rights at campus
watering holes) with whether they 'got into' the ABC firm. That's silly and narrow-minded. Other
students, like the children outside the proverbial candy store window, who find themselves unable to
get an offer from ABC or XYZ now lament their 'failure' and behave as if this is a shameful event. There
are thousands of wonderful places to begin a career. It may be a large firm in a big city, or small firm
in a small town. It could be in the office of the Solicitor General of the United States or the Assistant
District Attorney of Riverside, California. Take time to understand your dreams and the scope of
opportunities in the profession. The best book on the subject is Richard Moll's Lure of the Law, an
eminently readable and inspiring 200 page text published in 1991. Moll interviews about 20 lawyers
in all walks of life who have found satisfaction in the profession.
There is nothing wrong with not working in private practice. The decision to do so is
often a reflex of convenience, habit, and imitative behavior - because this is the option that is most
readily available. The ease with which offers can be found says nothing about the wisdom of your
decision. The chorus of encouraging remarks you hear from lawyers who have only worked in one law
8
firm in their entire career should be regarded with some skepticism. It’s easy to feel as if you have
made the “wrong choice” because you are not going to a major market, a famous firm, or just a place
whose name elicits a thumbs up in your favorite watering hole.
Don’t use the Career Services Offices as a punching bag for frustrations caused by
market forces. The OCS does not make the market. It is an intermediary which introduces buyers
(employers) to sellers (students). Like the NYSE they cannot force anyone to come to the market. All
they can do is try to persuade employers to visit and try to persuade students to interact with buyers
strategically and sensibly. OCS also plays a more important role - which is to nudge, counsel, test,
support, cajole, and guide the process to a conclusion. Trust what they say because they come with no
other agenda than to make this work a firm's culture - you will not change it. You are probably more
ambitious and driven than you care to recognize.
And, 2,000 hours a year is far less than you spend in law school. Many employers
cannot choose not to come because they do not feel they will see a critical mass of students interested
in working for them. For other employers it is a cost-benefit analysis that leads them to decide to
interview with at only a few schools. This plays out in various ways. Many mid-size and large firms in
major markets don’t come to various top 10 schools because they feel they won’t attract interest.
Strange but true and sensible from their point of view. Many government or public interest
employers lack the cash and staff to interview on campus. There is little even the most gifted Career
Services Offices can do about either of these types of decisions. While they strive mightily to persuade
employers of all kinds to visit campus they do not have subpoena power. In a slower economy many
employers reduce their targets and eliminate schools which are at the margin of their recruiting effort.
And a premier school may be cut from their list just because they do not need to make an effort (which
for them is swimming up hill in any event).
B. How Valuable Is Your Career?
ometimes gazing way over the horizon can put things in perspective. Students worry about
S being able to pay off a mountain of debt, buy a home, and live a normal life. When you
graduate with debt equal to or greater than your first year income it may seem like too high
a mountain to climb. For at least a century lawyers in large firms in major markets have
experienced annual increases in compensation about three or four times as great as the underlying rate
of inflation. Healthy law firms and inflation will go a long way towards reducing the debt load to a
manageable amount. You will graduate with a starting salary in most major markets of $100-160,000.
You should be able to pay off your debts and live the life you have wanted to live. The decisions you
make over the next several years will have a substantial impact on your career long earning path.
Investing 300-500 hours this Fall in mastering the interview process is critical to protecting your
investment in your career. You are your own fiduciary and the only one who can carry the load on this
decision. The time you spend this Fall is the first brick in the foundation of creating and preserving
long-term professional options which create long-term financial security.
The chart below offers a Net Present Value analysis of career income streams. The
studies are based on a conservative assumption that earnings growth for the next 40 years for lawyers
will be less favorable than it has been in the last 40 years. Case I assumes 10-13% growth in income
throughout the career of a lawyer who starts and stays with a mega firm. The lawyer is in the top
quartile on earnings and hours. Case II assumes 8-9% growth in income for a lawyer who starts with
a mid-size firm and stays for their entire career. In both Case I and II, earnings plateau at age 50 and
9
only increase 3-4% a year. Retirement is assumed to take place at age 60. Case III assumes the lawyer
starts with smaller firm and has far less rapid growth in earnings. Case IV assumes a lawyer starts
with a mega firm, makes partner, and becomes General Counsel of a Fortune 500 company at age 42,
and retires at age 54, at which point the lawyer cashes out stock and other deferred compensation.
Case V assumes a lawyer who starts as an associate at a mega firm, leaves the work force for 6 years
(after the sixth year in practice) and returns first part-time and then full time, working until age 57.
Case VI assumes a lawyer who clerks after graduation, joins a mega firm for four years, works as an
Assistant U.S. Attorney, returns to private practice as a partner, and then shuttles in and out of senior
government positions twice later in her career.
You can make the numbers move in many directions - but a NPV exercise is one way
to focus on the importance of decisions and the importance of preserving long-term options. To be
conservative the discount rate of 4% exceeds average inflation. Over the long run - lawyer career
income in large law firms has been 10-12% higher per year than inflation - an exceptional fact when
most businesses and professions struggle to meet budgetary goals. The numbers are staggering but
are based on very conservative assumptions about income, the cost of living, and the income streams
in large and mega firms in major markets. Even if your career ambition is in a sector where the annual
income is modest, you are still protecting the value of a multi- million dollar career. Yes you will also
have to learn what makes you happy, how hard you want to work, whether you want to pay the price
for glory, or fame, or independence, and how you want to allocate the hours you have among work, the
profession, your spouse, your family, your home, and your outside interests.
Those are all even more important but they are beyond the scope of this program. Just
as is the case with the home you buy, the debts you manage, the insurance you need, and the cost of
living in your city - it’s useful to take a look at the bottom line. It shouldn’t be daunting - it should be
inspiring and encouraging. A New Yorker article in 1932 noted, “The Blasphemous youngsters just out
of law school refer to the Cravath firm as ‘the factory’ and it does have the efficiency and production
of a first-rate industrial plant.’ The starting salary in the early 1930's was $2,500 a year. Concerns
about recruiting, growth, profitability, hours, competition, and compensation are not meaningfully
different today than they were twenty-five years ago. A then-controversial piece in Fortune offered
these comments in 1978 —
The more important chain of command runs from the senior partners to the newest
recruits from law school. Since the firms have nothing but talent and reputation to
sell, they have always devoted a lot of effort to enlist and train new legal manpower..
.. It is not unusual for as many as half of the graduating class to show up to interview
with a single Wall Street firm. A select few will be invited, at the firm’s expense, for
interviews with other partners. . .. If he (sic) performs well the summer associate will
be invited to join the firm after graduation. Salaries for lawyers have vaulted ahead.
Once a new associate is hired, the courting stops. . .. New associates generally work
very long hours. Associates at one firm say they are expected to bill 2,000 hours a
year, and that ‘most people bill more.’
The Wall Street Lawyers Are Thriving on Change, Fortune (March 13, 1978) 104. Other comments
in the same article may elicit a smile about that era. “In the past five years, partner profits rose 45%.”
“Many corporations believe that a lot of their legal work can be done more effectively and for far less
money by in-house lawyers.” “To reach the Elysian levels (of the highest paid partners) it helps to
be a rainmaker.” “Associates are extremely competitive, as well they should be. The odds (against
10
promotion) are long.” “Lawyers function badly on committees. They take more time than
businessmen.” “Sophisticated word-processing equipment is enabling firms to churn out documents
at an accelerated rate.” Things haven’t changed that much. In 1982 the New York times flagged
issues about law firm economics not so different than those on the table today - law firms are under
financial pressure competition for legal services is intense old line firms must focus on finding new
clients law firms are hiring PR firms to handle news contacts partners are upset about pressures
on profitability all of this taking place while starting salaries are skyrocketing. New York Times
(Feb. 3, 1982) B-1.
11
CAREER LONG EARNINGS FOR SIX CAREER PATH S

33 YEARS IN PRACTICE & RETIRE AT AGE 60
I Partner II Partner III - Small IV - Mega V- Full Time VI - In/Out
Age Yr Mega Firm Large Firm Firm Then GC Hiatus-Return Govt Serv.
27 0 $160,000 $125,000 $90,000 $160,000 $141,000 $50,000
28 1 $180,800 $137,500 $96,300 $180,800 $159,330 $159,330
29 2 $204,304 $148,500 $103,041 $204,304 $180,043 $180,043
30 3 $230,864 $160,380 $110,254 $230,864 $203,448 $203,448
31 4 $260,876 $173,210 $117,972 $260,876 $229,897 $100,000
32 5 $294,790 $187,067 $126,230 $294,790 $259,783 $100,000
33 6 $333,112 $202,033 $135,066 $333,112 $0 $100,000
34 7 $376,417 $218,195 $144,520 $376,417 $0 $100,000
35 8 $425,351 $235,651 $200,000 $425,351 $0 $350,000
36 9 $480,647 $254,503 $216,000 $480,647 $0 $395,500
37 10 $543,131 $274,863 $233,280 $543,131 $0 $446,915
38 11 $613,738 $296,852 $251,942 $613,738 $0 $505,014
39 12 $693,524 $320,600 $272,098 $693,524 $0 $570,666
40 13 $783,682 $346,248 $293,866 $783,682 $255,000 $644,852
41 14 $885,560 $373,948 $317,375 $885,560 $280,500 $150,000
42 15 $1,000,683 $403,864 $342,765 $1,000,683 $308,550 $150,000
43 16 $1,130,772 $436,173 $370,186 $1,000,000 $339,405 $150,000
44 17 $1,277,772 $471,067 $399,801 $1,500,000 $373,346 $150,000
45 18 $1,443,883 $508,752 $431,785 $1,750,000 $410,680 $1,300,000
46 19 $1,631,588 $549,453 $466,328 $2,000,000 $451,748 $1,482,000
47 20 $1,843,694 $593,409 $500,000 $2,000,000 $496,923 $1,689,480
48 21 $2,083,374 $640,882 $500,000 $2,000,000 $546,615 $1,926,007
49 22 $2,354,213 $692,152 $500,000 $2,000,000 $601,277 $2,195,648
50 23 $2,660,261 $747,524 $500,000 $2,000,000 $673,430 $2,503,039
51 24 $2,766,671 $784,901 $500,000 $2,000,000 $754,241 $2,853,464
52 25 $2,877,338 $824,146 $500,000 $2,000,000 $700,000 $3,252,949
53 26 $2,992,431 $865,353 $500,000 $2,000,000 $700,000 $3,708,362
54 27 $3,112,129 $908,620 $500,000 $2,000,000 $700,000 $200,000
55 28 $3,236,614 $954,051 $550,000 $15,000,000 $700,000 $200,000
56 29 $3,366,078 $1,001,754 $550,000 $200,000
57 30 $3,500,721 $1,051,842 $550,000 $200,000
58 31 $3,640,750 $1,104,434 $550,000 $4,000,000
59 32 $3,786,380 $1,159,656 $500,000 $4,000,000
60 33 $4,278,610 $1,252,428 $450,000 $4,000,000
Total $55,450,757 $18,405,012 $11,868,808 $44,717,478 $9,465,216 $38,216,719
NPV $21,720,749 $7,772,969 $5,317,017 $18,882,775 $3,742,268 $11,884,562
A discount rate of 4 percent is used for the net present value calculation. Assumes law school graduation at 27 (typical for most students) and retirement at 60.
By the time your generation reaches 60 - retirement ages may have been reduced even further - but this generation may well go on to other productive and highly
compensated “senior careers.” Stay tuned.
12
C. What Burdens Face Students From The Nation's Best Schools?
tudents fortunate enough to attend a premier law school enjoy tremendous opportunities not
S available to a vast majority of students at the nation’s other law schools. However, out of this
abundance comes greater stress - simply because more choices are available. At the end of
the day they must choose among many cities, firms, and career paths. There are no ‘right
answers,’ and few ‘best answers.’ Some outside the elite circle of the nation’s best schools will have no
sympathy for your plight. And, to be fair, some older lawyers will be completely unsympathetic.
Many lawyers you meet have a limited career perspective. Some of those who have
worked in only one firm in their life find it difficult to imagine life or practice elsewhere. Their loyalty
is admirable but their objectivity is questionable. Many of the lawyers you meet will never have spent
a moment working outside private practice. It may be difficult for them to understand the risks,
benefits, and road to happiness in any area outside private practice.
Most lawyers you meet will have practiced in only one city. The best recruiters will
admit that other cities can be wonderful places to live and practice but they may not hear the same
things calling to them that are calling to you. I like to think I am not biased here because I was raised
in Southern California, attended Michigan, practiced on Wall Street, practiced in Chicago, and now
place lawyers nationally - but even the most wide ranging interviewer may not understand what is on
your plate.
Many lawyers you meet this Fall will not have attended leading schools. All will
acknowledge the excellence of your school, but some will have ‘issues.’ You may feel you are being
used as a ‘heavy bag’ for a 30 minute workout which concerns someone else’s attitudes about your
school. Take it as a rite of passage. Keep your focus and don’t allow insecurity interfere with your
quest. No matter where you come from, someone will have a problem with it. If you try cases - you will
hear at least 10 times a year sidebar comments (not flattering) about attending a Top 10 law school
working for a big firm working in a big city. It’s not fun but you just have to deploy all of your
skills and methodically and graciously overcome your opponent. I recall this from years at 53 Wall
Street3 - you had to listen to the ‘speech’ about your firm and your background before you got to the
merits. So, don’t react and don’t let it cause you to retaliate (because that is what the proponent is
trying to get you to do). Some students who attend the nation’s best schools are self-centered and are
accustomed to the world dancing to the music they put on the CD changer. That attitude will not get
you far in private practice. Success in a major national law firm is a team sport where the interests of
the firm and the interests of its clients are paramount - and the interests of a junior lawyer are
subordinate. This type of attitude can be particularly dangerous for a student from a leading law
school. The recruiting process can be intoxicating - leading one’s head to spin with all the wonderful
things that are said by competing firms. But the day you begin in practice you are one of several
hundred lawyers (and you are the newest lawyer on the block).
3
As a 2d year associate a partner from a California firm called me a “jerk from New York.” Five years
later a lawyer from Ohio called me “a W all Street ass****.” I felt like I'd been promoted. I chose to let pass a
comment by a partner in a sm all city about my client being a “parasite and corporate sodomist”.
13
The warm glow of affection is replaced by the day to day business of practicing law. That
is not to say that firms are impersonal, hostile, cold, or unfair to young lawyers. It only means that
what you may been accustomed to earlier in life will not longer be present. You will be measured as
a summer associate and later in your career by several base line traits (none directly related to where
you went to law school or how well you did) hard work writing ability ability to get along with
everyone from support staff to partners to clients to adversaries flexibility and adaptability - and a
willingness to do the glorious and inglorious work done in law firms daily your ability to provide
outstanding, timely, economic, and useful advice to clients your ability to maintain and improve the
quality and quantity of client relationships. In all the years I sat in meetings discussing whether
someone should ‘get an offer’ at the end of the summer or ‘make partner’ several years later. I rarely
heard discussions of raw legal ability or where one went to school. Law firms do a good job of
screening for the basics - it is the other qualities (and often the ones that are intangible and people-
related) that carry the day.
As you narrow down your choices - understand that your career is a series of steps and
platforms. Few of us can predict with precision what we will want to be able to do 15-20 years hence.
But just as you chose a premier law school as an excellent place to learn about the law (and a place
which would give you options) - look at your first career step in the same way and determine whether
it is a great place to go and a great place to leave. Use your law school network as a resource. Using the
alumni directory and Martindale Hubbell on line you can quickly find fellow graduates who have
followed a path which interests you. Pick up the phone and call them - you will find the alumni to be
a fascinating, valuable, opinionated, and accessible resource.
E. Why Firms Must Compete For Students — Call Back Calculus
irms are in a competitive fist fight for the best students at the best schools. You should take
F considerable comfort from two important facts . First, the best large law firms nationally will
give 2L offers to 50-65% of students invited for call back interviews. And the best law firms
know that only 20-25% of their offers will be accepted. The toughest part of the battle is over.
You have a lead going into the bottom of the 7th inning. The question is how to protect the lead and
win the game. The background music for the eternal
dance between law students and firms is provided
by an orchestra consisting of basic economic factors
along with the underlying preferences of students
and employers. The hiring needs of the nation's
200 largest employers have increased more than
400% in the past 30 years.
In 1975 only 5 firms in the United

States had more than 200 lawyers. Today that
number has soared to over 300. Today 115 offices
(not firms) have more than 200 lawyers and 375
offices (not firms) have more than 100 lawyers.
Beyond the raw growth - the competition in any
market is far more fierce. Thirty years ago most
large national firms had an original 'home' office -
14
and some had an 'outpost' in Washington, D.C. Today the typical national firm has 5-10 offices in
major business centers throughout the nation. As the chart on the right show - in many major cities
the 'home grown' firms are vastly out numbered by the national offices of firms with their original
offices elsewhere. N.B. I did not use the word branch, because we are not speaking of banks.
Law firms are struggling to grow without sacrificing quality. Unable to stanch voluntary
attrition of talented associates they must continue to rely heavily on campus hiring of law students and
lateral hiring of experienced associates. Employers struggle with holding on to the best associates
when the associates understand that the odds of making partner are increasingly remote. Thus
,campus interviews of law students are an imperfect tool - but the best one available in the arsenal
available to law firms. In an ideal world, any firm would pick the top three or four students at each of
the nation’s four or five most prominent schools.
And students would like to access firms without any grade-based screening. In the real
world, employers have preferences and tendencies. Students must understand how their credentials
match employers’ preferences and tendencies. Success in the Fall requires informed realism, rather
than hunches based on what you think you should do or what your hear that your friends are doing.
It is easy to be discouraged looking at your classmates and interview sign up lists. You read that the
ABC firm in Chicago is ‘looking for 30 summer associates.’ Then you notice that they have sent four
interviewers to Cambridge, Ann Arbor, or Chicago for two days to meet 150 students and you wonder
how you will ever ‘make the cut’ because you have a 3.3. GPA and the sign up list seems to be jammed
with folks with higher grades. The answer to your anxiety lies not in Gelusil but in an lesson in “Call
Back Calculus.” To hire 30 summer associates, a firm interviews far more people in the office. Firms
are in a fierce fist fight with their competitors to hire the best and brightest students from the nation’s
leading schools. The chart above shows how a firm goes from an estimated of its hiring need to the
arrival of a new associate class two years hence. As firms increase their hiring targets, they assess what
they must do to reach the target. Firms are painfully aware of the competitive nature of hiring. They
understand that they must compete against comparable firms in Chicago and other leading markets.
And they understand that in a year when other firms are increasing their hiring targets they must work
harder, reach deeper, and fight harder to meet their target.
F. Why Do Firms Rely on Entry-Level Hiring?
hy do law firms go on campus? Is there a cost effective alternative which would deliver the
W quality and quantity of lawyers desired. Why do law firms hire new lawyers? Law firms
need a continued supply of new talent. Law firms grow and change. Some of their lawyers
stay, become partners and develop growing practices. Attrition causes even (and
especially) the best firms to lose the vast majority of their lawyers before they are eligible for
promotion. If the firm is to continue to grow, to serve more clients, and become more profitable, it will
need more first rate human talent. Maintaining head count (and facilitating growth) requires a steady
flow of additional lawyers. The Wall Street firms learned decades ago that attrition was inevitable
—and they learned to capitalize on it by turning loyal alumni into profitable clients).
Law firms know that there is a terrible shortage of talented human capital. The best
national firms know that 5-10 years from now fundamental changes may have to be made in the way
that law firms hire and retain lawyers. The nation's best law schools are only slightly larger today
15
than they were 30 years ago. During that time the hiring needs of the nation's 200 largest firms have
grown 400-500 percent. Half of all new associates leave before the end of their third year. Half
of all lateral hires leave within 2.5 years after they are hired. While 50% of law school graduates are
women - their attrition is far higher than that of male graduates. Law schools are pushing the
interview year into the summer between first and second year. Judges are clamoring for 2 year
clerkships. Most law firms don't make money on associates until their 2d or 3d year. How can the
system be fixed? Or will law firms and law schools just continue the career mating dance listening to
music only they can hear while the OCI / Callback /Lateral Titanic heads toward the inevitable iceberg.
Campus interviewing and call backs are expensive, time-consuming, disruptive,

annoying, and uncertain. For a typical large national law firm, it consumes millions of dollars in cash
and attorney time - the bulk of it during one of the busiest quarters of the year. Literally hundreds of
talented lawyers spend 1-2 hours a day, several days a week, answering the same questions from an
apparently endless conga line of law students - most of whom will never be seen again. So why should
law firms continue this burdensome ritual? Because law firms see no cost effective alternative that will
deliver the quality and quantity of lawyers needed by premier national firms.
Few practicing remember that before 1970 NALP did not exist. Firms simply waited for
students to send in applications. A few of today’s most senior partners simply showed up in reception
unannounced and presented a resume. The rules of the game changed as the profession grew and today
the nation’s 100 largest firms hire more than 5,000 lawyers a year - for their ‘original’ offices and
offices they have opened in other cities. Would it be possible to abandon or sharply curtail campus
hiring? In all likelihood, no. The alternatives to campus hiring include relying exclusively on
lateral hiring (with or without the use of headhunters), increased use of contract attorneys (of very
uncertain quality and commitment), advertising, direct mail, or the use of a variety of evolving
Internet-based tools. Most headhunters would applaud abandoning campus hiring. But long before
I was a headhunter I was a hiring partner. And I remain convinced that the best (not perfect) source
of the number and quality of junior talent needed by large law firms is found on key law school
campuses. If a firm switched gradually or completely to lateral hiring or other methods, they would
encounter abundant bad news. The quality of associates available in any lateral market will not match
that available in on campus hiring.
The best associates at competing firms - who are content, productive, focused on client
service, and determined to stay the course to become partner are highly unlikely to enter the lateral
market in the city in which they practice. They may dabble from time to time, and occasionally one
may jump - but it is the exception rather than the rule. To be sure, exceptions exist. Many lawyers
relocate to follow a spouse or a relationship. The trailing mover can be an exceptional placement who
is a great long-term bet for success. Some of the best lateral hires will be strong lawyers from
competing firms who have had a bad year working for on the proverbial ‘matter from hell.’ They seek
greener pastures and are delighted to work with a new team of people.
One can also find terrific lawyers at selected mid-size and smaller firms who aspire to
work for a premier national firm. But for every diamond in the rough, there is a lot of tough mining -
of lawyers whose experience does not measure up to the needs of a premier national firm. Lateral
hiring is even more inefficient than entry-level hiring. It takes time to assimilate the new lawyer - this
means far more than learning the people and the politics. It means learning the culture, the style, and
the way people work in a firm. It also means the considerable inefficiencies and lag times in developing
relationships with partners and with clients that make the practice more efficient and effective.
16
Laterals continue to present challenges in terms of assimilation, promotion, compensation, and

relationships with associates who are home grown. That will never change.
One cannot ignore the direct and indirect cash costs of lateral hiring. Hiring 40
additional lawyers at an average salary of $180,000 a year costs $1.5 million in search fees - and
require the firm to spend more attorney time than it spends on campus (because the yield ratio will
fall). Hiring laterally without search firms will bury firms in a torrent of resumes and interview
headaches that are almost unimaginable. Laterals who leave the firm involuntarily present substantial
severance and other expenses. The Internet has encouraged the development of other ways to find
talented lawyers. But in the main the quality of lawyers found through firm postings of its own using
Internet advertising, or boards such as monster.com has been less than satisfying. A recruiting
coordinator at another premier firm in Chicago explained it to me this way —
Last year we received 11,000 unsolicited resumes - most through mass mailings,
internet services, job boards, partner and associate referrals or unrequested
submissions by headhunters. We hired 16 lawyers laterally — 15 were presented by the
four search firms we rely upon.
The Internet and the proliferation of cheap toner has empowered thousands of lawyers firms would
never hire to bury law firms in paper they do not need. The administrative demands of processing this
avalanche of un-needed paper dwarf the burden of campus hiring. The following analysis considers
an associate interviewed on campus this Fall who arrives in 2006 and ‘stays the course.’ I’ve assumed
she is productive, works hours in the top quartile, and receives substantial bumps in compensation
an hourly rate increase consistent with the past ten years. Overhead matches per capita figures used
by comparable firms compensation increases matching averages over the past 5 / 10 / 15 / 25 year
a discount rate of 7 percent is applied to come up with the NPV of the DCF of net profits generated.
The NPV calculation assumes $150,000 in recruiting costs (an allocable share of fall recruiting time
and expenses as well as the cash, overhead, and time attorney time costs of running a summer
program).
The Parable of the M illion Dollar Associate
Year H ours Rate Revenue Total Com p. Overhead Net Profit
2009 1900 300 $333,500 $125,000 $175,000 $57,500

2010 2200 330 $726,000 $150,000 $187,250 $388,750
2011 2200 375 $825,000 $185,000 $200,358 $439,643

2012 2200 410 $902,000 $210,000 $214,383 $477,617
2013 2200 440 $968,000 $235,000 $229,389 $503,611

2014 2300 480 $1,104,000 $265,000 $245,447 $593,553
2015 2300 520 $1,196,000 $295,000 $262,628 $638,372
2016 2300 560 $1,288,000 $315,000 $281,012 $691,988
Totals $6,054,500 $1,465,000 $1,514,454 $3,791,035
NPV / DCF (AT 7% DISCOUNT RATE ) — $2,521,405
17
G. How Does Turnover Effect Entry-level Hiring?
Rapid turnover is a fact of life in a major national law firm. For decades - no matter the condition of
the economy or the earea of the country - leading law firms have lost 15-20% of each associate class
in each calendar year. Some turnover is voluntary - some is decidedly involuntary.
The next two years will see an explosion in voluntary turnover. As the economic
recovery gathers momentum lawyers who have wanted to make career moves for the past 1-3 years will
be able to switch firms, move in house, move to other cities, etc. This spike in attrition is a natural
consequence of a recovery. It is not an indication that anything is “wrong” with a given firm. In fact,
when the market finds the alumni of a firm attractive it is really a compliment to the training the
lawyers have received.
Ask the famous Wall Street firms, whose alumni populate the ranks of leading firms
throughout the United States. Turnover is a complex issue. It is not necessarily negative — it’s
inevitable that lawyers will make moves 2-5 years after they join a firm and many firms take pride in
the opportunities selected by their ‘alumni.’ Much of it is ‘voluntary’ because lawyers opt out of the
partnership chase for personal and sound reasons. It has peaks and valleys — there is always a surge
of turnover at the 2-3 year and 6-8 year level.
A student once told me that he was concerned about the 15-20% turnover rates found
in leading law firms. I asked him to imagine that he was managing partner of a firm consisting of the
members of his 1L section of 125 students. I asked him how many students he would fire on the spot
because of personality issues, poor work ethic, or a general inability to play well with others. Suffice
to say his proposed ejection rate was somewhat higher than 15 percent.
There are many exceptionally talented, smart, creative law school graduates who are
not meant to be “lifers” in a large national law firm. They will thrive in different environments or
choose some other setting - whether government, academia, small firm, business, or something
removed from practice. Among the lawyers I worked with in New York were associates who became
restaurant owners, authors, agents, poets, investment bankers, law school professors, small business
owners.
A firm's alumni relations is an interesting reflection of its culture. More and more large
law firms are learning that loyal alumni are a vital part of long-term growth. Turnover is inevitable -
healthy - and an indication that the firm's alumni are attractive to other employers. It is not necessarily
evil or an indication of poor hiring or poor management.
18
III. Call Back Interviews

The Student's Side of the Desk
A. Know Your Strengths & Limitations
How can you market your credentials and distinguish yourself amidst a sea of talented lawyers? Begin
by assessing your strengths. The story does not end with grades or membership on a journal or the
Law Review. For almost all employers, numbers, grades, journals and the like are only a point of
reference. Hiring partners look for something else - - young lawyers who can do the job effectively. The
following inter-related qualities are as or more important than any of the more traditional indicia of
excellence:
Assertiveness — While far too much has been written on the subject of assertiveness,
there is no question that it is critical to being a successful lawyer. Do not confuse assertiveness with
aggressiveness or obnoxiousness. Private and public employers need lawyers who instill confidence
in clients and judges and respect in adversaries. Put yourself in the shoes of the older lawyer with an
important client or important case. You want a lawyer who commands the confidence and respect of
everyone with whom she deals. All the brainpower, writing ability, and high grades in the world are
perfectly irrelevant if the young lawyer cannot deal effectively with the client, lawyer, or judge across
the table. The assertiveness, enthusiasm, and directness which you project are critical to an employer's
evaluation of your potential. This is measured quickly and carefully during the first few minutes of an
initial interview. The lawyer who is lively, interested, quick-witted, and confident is leagues ahead of
a student with a higher GPA who is withdrawn, ill-at-ease, arrogant, or diffident.
Writing ability and speaking ability. These are the most important tools of the trade.
A lawyer who can not write well and speak effectively will fail ---in the courtroom, with clients, and
with adversaries. These skills are tough to evaluate in an interview and some employers will simply
make assumptions based on journal/law review membership or participation in the moot court
competition. Speaking ability cannot be formally tested during an interview, but a hiring partner will
draw a conclusion about your likely effectiveness in this area based on how you handle yourself during
the interview. How you stand, speak, sit, and react during the interview will be quite significant. A
student who is comfortable, articulate, and both inquisitive and responsive will carry the day.
Membership on a journal is one indication of a desire to write well --- but standing on
its own, it proves little. A fair number of employers will carefully evaluate writing samples. An excellent
example of substantive legal writing can tip the scales in your favor. All references to clients should
be masked or deleted to protect the privilege of your prior employer and that you should ask your prior
employer for authority to use a sample, even in that form. If you have published an article in a journal,
or written a complex brief for the moot court competition should not be bashful about bringing along
copies to interviews and offering them to employers.
A capacity and enthusiasm for excellence and hard work --- Does someone simply go
to school and do little else or do they immerse themselves into the academic environment with
meaningful activities? Simply joining several organizations is not impressive. What has an impact on
employers is what you actually do --- the major, responsible, challenging, and time-consuming projects
you handled successfully.
The capacity to work well with others. This highly subjective and intangible quality is
terribly important to all employers. A lawyer who can not work well with partners, associates, staff,
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judges, adversaries, and clients is a professional and economic risk to her or his firm. And, an initial
judgment about this quality will be made during the on-campus interview.
How Important are Grades? --- They are important, but they do not control your
opportunity. If your academic record, like 90 percent of your classmates, has a blemish or two, do not
despair. Hiring partners are looking for the best lawyers and those who will work well within their
firm. That you had a low grade in one course (or two for that matter) will not be fatal to your career.
The question is --- how did you deal with this adversity. If the low grades were in one semester, did you
improve in the second? Have you become active in extra-curricular activities which demonstrate
intellectual excellence?
A Final Note on Strengths & Weaknesses — Once you have a honest, complete inventory
of your strengths and weaknesses you are ready to market your product. Johnson & Johnson survived
the Tylenol murders because they faced problems and overcame them. Audi watched its market share
collapse because it could not deal correctly with allegations about faulty acceleration. Perrier sales in
the U.S. fell when it did a poor job of meeting rumors about contamination. Law students who deal
with weaknesses in a constructive, pro active way take a decisive first step toward convincing
employers to look at their compensating strengths.
After spending time understanding yourself, immersing yourself in the profession,

analyzing the competition (the other lawyers and students), and perfecting the package (you, your
apparel and demeanor), and your media strategy (resumes, targeted mass mailings, networking) it is
time to go into the lion's den of the interview process. What follows is a discussion of how to prepare
for the interview and how to make the interview work for you. While the skills of effective interviewing
are not lost secrets of the Mayans -- it astounds me how many lawyers and students (roughly 90
percent) are ill prepared to do battle. Let's get to work. With proper preparation and an optimistic
spirit, this is where you will land the job. The hard part is behind you ---- once you are in the
employer's office the odds of landing the job improve dramatically to between 20 and 50 percent. For
the first time interviewee, the process can be intimidating. For the veteran interviewee, being bored
and lackadaisical is a substantial risk.
B. The Value and ROI of Preparation —
View the interview as an athletic contest that requires energy, preparation, and constant flexibility. You
will turn the tables and impress the employer with your knowledge of her firm. Even the toughest
question (about bad grades and the like) can be handled with aplomb. The lawyer who projects an
image of relaxed self-confidence will carry the day. Think for a moment about the differences between
nervous high energy politicians (George Bush “41" and Michael Dukakis) and relaxed and self
confident politicians (Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton). In politics, law, or medicine, a good bedside
manner is critical to care for citizens, clients and patients.
You have begun a multi-decade career as a lawyer after investing three years and a small
fortune. Just as the first year of law school was a demanding mélange of information, chaos, rumor,
fact, stress, and progress, so too will be the process of finding the right place to continue your career.
From the beginning of the process through the final decision, the student who understands the
prospective employer will compete more effectively. Here are several steps to level the playing field:
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In 31 years interviewing more than 9,500 law students and laterals I have found that less than
10% were fully prepared for the interview. Many put the process on "auto-pilot" and go through
the motions of an interview asking routine questions and plodding through the process. While
those with a 4.0 and who edit the Law Review may not need to do more the rest of us must.
View the interview process as inter-active reciprocal cross examination. You will have
witnesses (interviewers), documents (NALP forms, clippings), exhibits (websites, brochures,
advertisements, etc.) to consider. The full story about any firm is only learned by considering,
distilling, and understanding all of this information. You can cross-examine a law firm by
trying the same questions out on several interviewers and comparing the substance, texture,
and tone of the answers. The differences will astound you.
Do not make the same mistake in an interview that new trial lawyers make in the courtroom
---- listen to the answer. Don't just ask canned questions and move on. The follow up question
to an employer requires that you listen to and understand what is being said. It sounds easy---
but it requires work. The tension in the interview room causes too many students to retreat to
patterns of pre-digested questions.
The student and interviewer will inquire, review, digest, and decide. You can not simply take
your resume at face value, you can not simply accept what you read, hear, presume, or "know"
about an employer. The effective trial lawyer gathers facts, sorts out the conflicts, and
determines what (if any) information will persuade the jury. The effective interviewee gathers,
sifts, sorts, and decides.
Why do all of this? Most of your colleagues will not---and you will have a substantial
competitive edge over students with apparently stronger paper credentials. You will learn
more about the fabric and substance of a firm --- as it is perceived in the media and reported
in the courts. You will blow away interviewers who will be astounded that you took the time
to learn about them. This appeals not only to their egos and shows you will go the extra mile ---
a very important characteristic firms seek in lawyers.
Won't this take way too much time and yield too few benefits? No. An hour preparing for an
on campus interview and two preparing for an in office interview is a small investment. And,
it is far more than your peers will do. You need not memorize all data about a firm. But you
should know, all of the following in a general sense office locations departments
relative growth trends offer ratios for the summer program major clients prominent
cases and matters themes emphasized in promotional materials recent hiring at your law
school.
It is not a "cheap, stupid pet trick" to learn about the personal background of the interviewing
lawyer. Find out who you will meet and put their name(s) through LEXIS and WESTLAW. You
may find useful and current information about their cases or transactions. Or you may find you
attended the same college, grew up in the same town, play the same sports, or have other
critical common ground. Understand that if you go far into google that the interviewer thinks
you are ‘stalking’ them that you may come off as a bit odd. A little research goes a long way.
C. Research
You must do detailed research on every employer you visit. You must research, distill, question, and
compare. It is not a matter of simply glancing at a firm website, dashing through vault, and accepting
at face value the first five rumors you hear on campus. A well-prepared interviewee will be far more
21
effective. The you know the better you will be able to ignore hearsay and rumor and make a decision
based on facts and conclusions which are supported by your research and your experience.
Whether you come a family full of lawyers or you are the first person to attend law
school, you must make the effort to gather the information that is important to you. Just as a trial
lawyer gathers evidence from a variety of sources - friendly and hostile witnesses, documents, experts,
the media, and other sources - you must consider many sources of information. It's a lot of work - but
no one else can or should do this work for you. Welcome to Tough Love 101. The credit given equals
the effort invested. I do not presume to know what is important to every reader. However, most
students considering major firms should give some thought to asking questions relating to the
following general subjects.
Areas of Interest and Inquiry for 2L's Considering Large Law Firms
Summer Program Evaluation and Development
Assignment Method Review Process / Frequency
Compensation Salaries and Bonuses
Organization Hours - Average & Expected

Offer / Acceptance Data Promotion - Recent Data - Overall
Splits? Multiple Cities? Minority Hiring / Retain / Promote
Practice Area Information Women - Hiring / Retain / Promote
Growth and Attrition Firm Wide Issues
Plans for next 1-5 Years Number of Partnership Tiers
Partner Associate Ratios Progress from Tier 2 to Tier 1
Typical Responsibilities - Associates Attrition - Historical Current
Intangibles Alumni - Where Do They Settle
Atmosphere Potential Tough Issues & Bad News
Importance of Marketing / Bus. Dev. Attrition - Shrinkage -
Low Offer Ratios
Layoffs /Falling Earnings
1. Firm Websites and Brochures — Firm websites can be incredibly useful. Some
great firms have lousy websites. Some lousy firms have websites that make web heads get all warm wet
and woozy. Don't define greatness by web site creativity and functionality. Law firms are struggling
with how to communicate their message. Regrettably senior management includes a lot of folks who
could not log on if their life depended on it and for whom the 18" flat screen monitor is a prop meant
to impress clients. They then interface (don't you love that word) with creative folks in marketing and
the outside web designer who may in some cases be as over the top as an Italian shoe designer. Put all
of this together in a roasting pan and leave in on 325 for an hour - and you may get an unusual site.
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The website is a marketing4 device for clients. It can be a gold mine for detailed
information on practice-area specific experience, current matters, the experiences of different lawyers,
etc. The downside is that because it is marketing it is designed to persuade first and inform second.
So use your lawyerly skepticism - not cynicism - when you run into assertions that seem a bit too bold
to be true. Twenty years ago firms relied on one page letters to prospects. The few brochures that
existed read like trust indentures. In the mid 1980's firms experimented with expensive attempts at
self-promotion.
Websites and Brochures can persuade students to sign up for interviews and accept
invitations to interview introduce the firm provide information and comfort and begin the
complex, all-important task of distinguishing your firm from its competitors. A brochure lets a lawyer
visualize herself working in a firm. This process of psychological projection is enhanced by an effective
brochure and irreparably damaged by a turgid or clumsy effort. Form, content, message, photography,
and image all play a role in causing students to sign up for interviews or accept invitations.
Websites and brochures cannot convince a lawyer to accept an offer sell what does
not exist cure institutional problems paper over structural weaknesses band aid wounds of the
recession. The hiring dance is a complex marketing ritual. Your resume is your advertisement to legal
employers. Employers advertise their virtues through brochures. Twenty years ago, most firms had
a one page practice summary written (at best) on firm letterhead. It said little more than the size of
the firm, names of the departments, a couple of boiler-plate sentences about the summer program,
and a capsule summary of hiring plans. That was it.
Too many web sites and brochures are a one-sided projection of how a firm sees itself,
not a carefully designed message designed to help students over the hurdles of signing up for
interviews and accepting invitations to interview. Most fail to communicate a unique, accurate, and
useful message to the market (students) or differentiate the firm from its competitors (your good
friends down the street who hire half the Yale Law Journal. If web sites and brochures are to be
believed, all firms have "diverse, collegial working environments," "lean staffing," "early
responsibility," "big firm matters with small firm atmosphere," "state of the art technology," and
"cutting edge cases." The attorneys pictured are young, fit, smiling, attractive members of a politically
correct melting pot that bears little resemblance to the partnership.
News Items — Start here - it's like reading the first page of the newspaper. A firm will
list new cases and matters, recent hires, press clippings of note, and other messages they want to
communicate to clients and the media. They probably won't include bad news or controversial
clippings. News item compilations allow a student to see how a firm sees itself.
Practice Areas — Read in detail the descriptions of practice and experience -you will
learn about the firm and refine your own interest. You often find lists of clients, cases, matters, and
other details that may tell you far more about a firm's actual depth in an area which interests you. This
will allow you to develop and refine detailed questions about a firm's practice and how it matches with
your interests.
4
Firms' marketing expenses have exploded in the past fifteen years. Marketing expenses from staff expenses
programs and sponsorships websites other print and electronic media - are growing very rapidly. For example, it is not
uncommon for a large firm in a major market to pay its Director of M arketing more than $500,000 per year - a position which
did not exist twenty years ago and which ten years ago would have commanded a salary 80% lower. Marketing today is more
than heading to the dreary downtown luncheon club and chatting with your friends. It is part and parcel of the incredibly
competitive nature of an entrepeneurial profession. The largest marketing cost is, not surprisingly, displaced billable time of
partners and associates. W elcome to the new century. Fasten your seatbelts.
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Departments and Groups — Oops. You thought that was covered above. The same
law firm may have two independent and only distantly related organization models. For purposes of
selling and servicing clients they will have interdisciplinary “groups” or “practice areas.” These fluid
teams may have 2-5 co-heads. It is almost impossible for a student to make sense out of this salad.
These teams and groups may overlap only slightly with the way that departments are managed
internally. At last count one top 100 firm had 55 practice areas with 145 “co-heads.” In the corporate
world this would elicit derisive chuckles.
Attorney Biographies — It's always wise to know the lawyer you meet - some firms
give extremely detailed biographies - including links to articles, speeches, decisions, and oral
arguments.
Recruiting — Of course you will master the information at the recruiting site - most
law firms try to answer the most common student questions. You will also find information on current
and historical summer programs, compensation, benefits, and details about new associate hiring,
training, and development.
History — If you are history buff these are worth reading. But you probably won't be
quizzed about hoary tales of the early 19th century. Some firms devote way too much information to
historical reflections.
Offices — Most large firms have offices in several major cities. When a law firm enters
a new market it may do so in several different ways merging with or acquiring a peer large firm
merging with or acquiring a mid size firm or boutique with complementary or contrasting strengths
deploying a team of lawyers from the 'home' office and building the office organically (not a popular
method today) or building an office by hiring laterally individuals and small groups of lawyers in
various attractive practice areas. It is worth knowing how the office you are considering evolved.
Frankly this is a mixed, controversial and evolving picture. Some of the fastest growing offices have
the least amount of institutional glue - some resemble patch work quilts where the lawyers have very
little in common. In the next decade your generation will witness which of these approaches to
expansion is most successful. In any case, visit the offices section and see what you can learn about the
office you are considering.
Management — Most law firms include very little information about internal
management or finances. I suspect that will change in the next twenty years. Many will not even have
a comprehensive listing of department chairs, management committee members, or similar
information. If you are curious that can be found in the Leadership Directories Yellow Book of Law
Firms - which you can find in almost every Career Services Office. The best publicly available
compilation of law firm financial information is found in the American Lawyer's AmLaw 100 and
AmLaw 200 reports issued in June and July of each year.
Search Functions — Some law firms will allow you to search for lawyer with whom
you have something in common (e.g., college or law school, place of birth, languages, special advanced
degrees, etc.). Sometimes this search function is found in the recruiting areas but it can also be found
in the attorney biographies or practice area specific sections.
2. NALP Reports and Forms — The NALP form has been around for decades and
it remains the single most useful source of base line information about law firm and provides in
snapshot format the answers to many simple but important questions students may have about firms
-ranging from trends in hiring, promotion, and compensation, to growth of a firm overall Please
understand that it is just a starting point, and it is not a statement taken under oath. A vast majority
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of recruiting professionals are highly principled and professional. A handful are not. And some are
under pressure from senior management to massage information in a way which is useful to the firm.
The NALP form is one valuable, introductory tool. It is not definitive, or completely
reliable. Most importantly, it is not a Gilberts™-like outline that should be your only source of
information about a firm. The information is, by its nature, dated. Given the rapid shifts in national
and local economic trends, hiring and promotion information from 18-24 months ago may have little
bearing on what a law firm will do when you arrive during next summer or fall. And, a firm's hiring
plans may have changed substantially since the form was drafted earlier this year.
Regrettably, some firms will stretch the truth on certain portions of the NALP form---
particularly those sections pertaining to hours5 and partnership data. For example, the number of
people "considered for partner" in a given year may not include attorneys who were terminated during
that year or who are rolled over from year to year with no real hope of promotion. That a firm has X
number of minority or women associates says little about the prospects for promotion to partner.
Attrition data is not gathered in a way that is useful.
The form does not give information on summer program/offer/acceptance ratios for
the current year. The statistics from the summer of 18 months ago may have no bearing on what
happened last summer or what will happen next summer. You will want to determine the
enrollment/offer/acceptance data from the summer program that just concluded. The brevity of the
form does not permit firms to flesh out details of treatment of part-time lawyers, parental leave, and
2 track partnerships.
3. Vault — Vault has emerged as a leading tool for students. It does a solid job of
hitting information on firms and markets. But it has limitations. The editorial staff lacks the experience
necessary to make critical judgments about the validity and importance of information it gathers
during its surveys. It often sells the sizzle - looking for stories, angles, and soft information without
caring to plumb the depths of what a firm really does and where it is headed. Were I a student I would
want to know more about finances and practice than decor and summer outings. I give Vault an “A”
for marketing and a “C— “ for content.
Vault has the following limitations which, make its objectivity and reliability suspect.
First, Vault accepts paid advertising from employers on its website. Second, Vault markets all of its
products to everyone - students, schools, and firms. There's nothing amoral about that - but it renders
it less reliable than Zagat (which does not accept advertisements from restaurant owners). Third, the
compilers of the information are not journalists nor are they lawyers with experience working in the
type of law firms which are profiled in the reports. They are making subjective judgments about
content, picking the issues to highlight in profiles and making subjective judgments galore about
places they in all fairness cannot understand. Fourth, the survey participants are not selected in a
manner which would satisfy any statistician or public opinion expert.
5
More importantly, remember "average" hours for associates disregard that senior associates will
work longer hours than younger lawyers an average of 1,900 hours per year m ay be m ade up of 5 lawyers who
work 2,400 hours, 3 who work 2,000, 9 who work 1,700 and the rest who work fewer hours reported charged
hours have become unreliable because of the inherent tension between minimum billing requirements (which may
cause exaggeration in time keeping) and partner pressure to reduce time on a given matter (which will cause
understatement.
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Why is Vault so popular? Like Mt. Everest. First, Because it is there (and because it is
free to law students). Second, because it is easily available (and free) to law student readers. It is a tool
in your kit. But it is not the only tool. It is not the best tool. Please tell me why the tipping factor in
your analysis of a law firm should be a superficial, non-expert, 'survey' which fails every basic principle
of opinion sampling or statistical analysis. Like U.S. News Vault is a tool - but the fact that a tool is
popular does not mean that it is the best tool for assisting you with understanding an extremely
complex profession.
3.5 - Above The Law - This enormously popular website www.AbovetheLaw.com is

a marvelous clearinghouse for information about law firm hiring, compensation, terminations, and
all manner of humorous, topical, or scandalous behavior. The core content on the site is up to date
and reliable and provocative. Developed by David Lat, a former Wachtell Lipton associate and Yale
Law School graduate, the site has become controversial because of its rapid-fire and detailed reporting
on law firm terminations and financial issues. It is a site that can’t be ignored and attracts a fair
amount of criticism because of the way that it peels back the layers of the onion of law firm
management and compensation. In my opinion, law firms would probably not have been as
transparent about terminations, summer program results, and compensation, if they had not been
nudged by Above the Law.
The “comments” part of this blog permit any user to say almost any thing about any
person or law firm. Many of the comments are obnoxious, baseless, bizarre, offensive, and half true
at best. Students should be aware of the site and understand the bright line of fairly objective
reporting and the unstructured chaos of the comments.
4. Legal Media - Take the time to read The American Lawyer, the National Law Journal
and the local legal media in the cities you consider. Www.NYLawer.com New York Lawyer on line has
a front page summary of all firm legal news nationally - a great place to get the hot stories every
morning no mater what city you are considering.
5. American Lawyer Surveys Of Summer Associates & Associates — Flawed. Bogus.

Suspect. Yet inviting – kind of like watching a train wreck. Recall the scene in The Fugitive? I'm not
a statistician, and I don't play one on television, but these surveys are graphically impressive and
dangerously unreliable. The American Lawyer has no way to monitor how the surveys are handled
and many firms are guilty of 'helping' summer associates and associates complete the forms. I'm not
going to into more detail here - but to base your decision on these alleged surveys would be a mistake.
By contrast, American Lawyer statistical summaries of law firm economic information are surprisingly
accurate and useful. It's just that when they get to the public opinion measurement area - they lose
their credibility. High points for graphics though.
7. Business and National Media — Read the Wall Street Journal6 every day. It's the daily
diary of the American dream but 30% of every issue or more relates to issues with a legal angle to
6
As hiring partner, I gave new associates the following the day they arrived an HP 17 business calculator
(and a short course in doing NPV DCF analyses) a diary (to encourage daily accurate time keeping a copy of Freund's book,
A Practical Guide to Lawyering (Law Journal Seminars Press 1979) - the best book ever written for associates on how to
navigate the challenging work of the major national law firm and that day's W all Street Journal. W e spent half an hour
marking the Journal to show the number of legal issues addressed by businesses daily how lawyers could learn more about
their clients by reading what their clients read. All of law school could be taught out of one week's issues of the Journal.
26
them. Glance at the business page of the New York Times and for those of you with a global itch worth
scratching every day should also include the Financial Times of London.
8. Beware The “Closer”7 Ever bought a car? There is the sales person, the backroom
manager, and 'the closer' - who comes out at the last minute to cement the deal. They can switch good
cop to bad cop faster than you can thumb your way from Law and Order to NYPD Blue. The closer in
the law firm context is the associate or partner who is assigned to you to 'bring it home.' Their tactics
will vary widely - but the job is the same - to get you to say 'yes' - no matter what it takes. This person
can be useful as a conduit for information and details - but understand their job is to get you to say yes.
9. Friends and Roommates — All of God's children are special. That's what mom always
used to say. And certainly your room-mates and your best friends are the walking definition of special.
But this is not Greek row rush. This is a job search. And it is entirely possible that a firm has a good
and sound reason for rejecting your friend and accepting you. Don't vent and rage and spew at the
moon. All law firms have to make choices - and they aren't easy to make. Perhaps your friend did
poorly during the interview. Perhaps they don't 'show well' Perhaps they have a trait that you find
charming in a bar at 2 a.m. that employers prefer not to watch during the business day. A friend who
is a wonderful human being may 'choke' during an interview because they are nervous, tired, etc.
10. Law School Grapevine — Danger. Warning. The law school grapevine is like a cock-
roach - it survives all extinction level events. Once the definitive source of information - back in the
60's and 70's - an era without legal media, law firm brochures, the internet, e-mail, or much of
anything else — it still plays an astonishing role in student's decisions. You can hear the words of the
grapevine - almost feel the syllables oozing out of the walls of the building. Twice told tales about firms
- wildly out of date - and alarmingly inaccurate are repeated even faster these days because they are
not passed around like the tale telling sessions of the campfires of the ancients. Today they are passed
around by IM, text message, and E-mail. Take the law school grapevine - good and bad- with about ten
pounds of skeptical salt.
11. Friends of Friends — Combine my views on the grapevine with my views on friends.
If you really embrace this level of third hand hearsay visit www.urbanlegends.com or
www.darwinawards.com. Personally I find www.thesmokinggun.com to be far more informative,
entertaining, and accurate. Another favorite for decompression no matter which party you favor is the
Borowitz report which provides a free online source of truly creative humor every business day. See
www.borowitzreport.com.
12. “Greedy Associates” Boards — These discussion boards were spawned during the
peak of the last boom - as an electronic watering hole. The discussion groups include students,
7
Not be confused with “a cleaner” who is called in after a hit by a professional assassin to render a crime scene
police-proof. See The Point of No Return (1993), starring Bridget Fonda, Gabriel Byrne, and Dermot Mulroney (the American
re-make of La Femme Nikita). The cleaner was played by Harvey Keitel. Other favorites to chase away career search anxiety
— The Great Santini (Robert Duvall 1981),Heartbreak Ridge (Clint Eastwood 1993), Stripes, Working Girl, Wall Street,
anything with governor Arnold (I think Kindergarten Cop - where he plays a detective named Kimball best displays his artistic
range and somehow evokes an image of managing the always interesting California Legislature), and Dave where Kevin Kline
plays opposite Sigourney W eaver as a temp agency owner by day and comedian by night who winds up as President.
27
associates, and occasional outsiders.8 Information at that site is like what one would hear at a bar --
controversial, informal, sometimes reliable, and often entertaining. Anonymity can result in useful hot
information being exchanged. But it can also become a wailing wall for the disaffected who have their
own private agenda which may have no relationship with your issues and objectives. Read them.
Participate. And be careful about the conclusions you draw. The Greedy Associate boards are
occasional sources of interesting scoops and inside gossip on law firm development. Generally the
kvetching which dominates the boards is short-sighted, poorly-informed speculation from anonymous
writers with axes to grind. Be very careful before you base your decision on gossip spray painted on
this electronic wall. I'll never forget the student who claimed he was from Illinois who was actually
conducting an informal 'vote' on whether he should accept an offer from firm A as opposed to firm B.
I wonder where he went and whether he conducts similar polls for all of his important life decisions.
Still, he was from Chicago, where we used to 'vote early and vote often.'
D. The Day of the Interview - Serve & Volley

Why The Relaxed Well Prepared Student Will Prevail
Interviewing resembles a trial or athletic competition. After months of preparation, practice,

strategizing, and anticipation, the moment arrives. You have done your research, gotten 'in the zone,'
and it's off to the firm reception area for a day of interviews. You're tense - which is proof that you're
alive and that you care. You're worried that you don't know as much as you should - which is proof that
you are not arrogant or presumptuous. You're as focused as you were the day before final examinations
began at the end of first year - because you know there is a lot on the line. Take a deep breath and
compare what you are about to do to a sporting event.
For those of you who play tennis interviewing is like a serve and volley tennis game. Whether
you are serving or receiving - going to the net on the second exchange can change the leverage
in a game of tennis. You are closer to your opponent, you can see the seams on the tennis ball
and watch its rotation as it heads across the net. You meet the ball as it crosses the net, step
into the ball, and volley the ball back across. A simple stroke - almost a reflex - which with
practice becomes a simple and indispensable part of your game.
For football fans - it's as if you are assigned to play defensive end against a great offense. You
can't worry about the entire field, which play will be called, or whether you are as fast as
Urlacher (you're not). All you need to do is play your position - anticipate, cross the line,
contain the run, and rush the passer. You will look at his feet and his eyes to know where he
is heading.
The message is simple - preparation and practice will relax you and prepare you for the
give and take of interviewing. At bottom - interviewing is a conversation in which two people exchange
views on a range of subjects for 30 minutes. It is artificial and constrained - but its elements are
predictable. It is a reciprocal process of assessment and sales — the law firm interviewer will assess
your skills and market the strength of the firm while you will assess the law firm and sell yourself to
the firm. In some interviews assessment will dominate - in other interviews selling will predominate.
But as long as you know that this unstructured conversation is a reciprocal exercise in sales and
assessment you will know what is taking place and how to handle it.
8
See www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs.tcl?topic=Greedy%20Chicago
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Some interviewers will be well prepared, thoughtful, strategic and effective. Others will
be superficial, sloppy, unprepared, and unfocused. Don't be irritated if the lawyer falls into the latter
category. The effective interviewee can do the heavy lifting in such an interview and make the result
spectacular. You can make the interview work for you even if the interviewer is unprepared an
inattentive. At least once this Fall you will meet an interviewer who cannot read (and cannot find) your
resume. You may be called by the wrong name. You may be asked the same question (about cities or
practice area) for the 35th time in a week. The interviewer may be late or have to take a call from a client
during your interview. Don't be irritable. Use this a chance to use the serve and volley of Q&A to make
an impact on this interviewer.
Most interviewers will be somewhere in the middle. They will have read your resume
briefly earlier in the day - perhaps even marked two or three line items where they'd like to ask you
some questions. They will shift gears from a client matter, meet you, and ask you to take a seat. Most
interviewers have a style or process that they will follow during an interview. It is usually the same way
they handle all students (and they probably believe it is terribly effective). Usually the interview will
resemble an informal chat where the interviewer guides you through a few areas of sales and
assessment and then turns the table over to you. Be an active participant in the process. Welcome the
change to take charge, ask questions, and guide where the interview is heading. This is your chance
to shine.
Calling Central Casting - Interviewers fall into several categories —
The expert partner who is a member of the hiring committee who is a virtuoso in the box
The preoccupied partner who has not had time to review the resumes
The exhausted partner, weary from two days of 20 minute interviews but who is tired, and
eager to wind up her day and rush for a plane
The loyal alumni of the school who loves to interview (and fancies himself an expert) but is
poorly-prepared and not gifted at dialog
The energetic young associate overly eager to sell the firm
The confrontational cross examiner who is determined to keep you on the spot
The interviewer who enjoys the sound of his own voice (and his thrice told tales) more than he
enjoys listening to you.
The gifted and clever interviewer who guides you gently through the process, learning what he
needs to know without you every being aware that you have answered many important
questions that are never directly posed.
Don't spend time asking rudimentary questions ("Do you have an X department?" or
"An office in Y city?"). Find out the names of all graduates who have worked for that firm as a summer
associate or permanent associate. Don't confine yourself to lawyers one year ahead of you. Pick
someone who has been at the firm five, ten, or fifteen years and speak with them later once you have
narrowed your choices.
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Be more proficient and professional than Paul Newman in The Verdict who shambled
through the darkened streets of Boston looking for his expert witness on the night before trial. Talk
to people who have accepted and rejected offers. They'll be astounded by your call and delighted to
speak with you. You may even get additional interviews and offers or at least some interesting contacts
out of this exercise. Take notes during the conversations. Two hours of telephone calls and a few
dollars of long distance charges will go a long way towards improving your decision.
Know your interviewer. Check Martindale-Hubbell and run the name through LEXIS,
NEXIS, or WESTLAW. Understand that this first step is tentative on both sides of the table. You may
not want to ask every hot question but you will want to begin gathering important information. The
interviewer will be the same way and will want and need some information from you. They will expect
that you will have good and ample questions about their practice.
Adjust your questions to the interviewer. Be mindful of differences in age, partner

associate status, whether the interviewer is on the firm's hiring or management committee, and
otherwise. You should assume that 60-70% of the interview should be under your control. Being
passive about your questions is the first step to a bad decision. A lawyer who is bored, lackadaisical,
disorganized, or lethargic has no chance of surviving the interviewing process.
Small things matter. Know the name of the interviewer and greet them by name.9 A firm
but non-theatrical handshake, a friendly smile and direct eye contact speak volumes about your ability
to relate to new people. How you sit in a chair can imply enthusiasm or abject boredom. Whether you
answer questions with directness and enthusiasm or act bored or evasive is critical to a favorable first
impression.
A Plan of Attack — Prepare, Observe, Assimilate, React, Respond — Adopt a Wild

Kingdom approach. Follow the basic rules of a safari: observe the animals in their own environment,
but please don't lean out the windows. Firearms and cameras aren't encouraged. Arrive 15 minutes
early. Take a walk around the neighborhood if you are new to the city.
Arrive in the reception area 10 minutes before your appointment, announce your arrival
and sit down and watch. Conduct a little archaeology -- if there are samples of firm client brochures
in the lobby pick one up and read it. You probably won't be thrown out of the building if you simply
take one with you either. This is not the time to review your notes. Now is the time to watch how
clients, lawyers, and staff relate to one another. How do people greet one another? Do lawyers seem
to know each other? What is the apparent relationship between lawyers and non-lawyers?
Be An Active, Inquisitive, Interviewee - Be like Gene Hackman in Class Action. Be

prepared for cross examination. Don't be afraid to ask a witness a question you've asked another
witness. Be flexible, persistent, and inter-active. Listen to the answers and use the answers to guide
your next question. Any one minute answer by a lawyer, whether Bozo or Brandeis, should lead to five
minutes of follow up questions and answers.
9
Remembering names is tough. Some people have a gift for it - most of us do not. If you're in the majority try
this approach - greet the person by name, use their name at least twice in the interview, and use it again when you leave.
Repetition helps. And it may help you with the time worn dumb question of the week “who have you seen today?” Resist the
temptation to say “three guys in tax named Bob and my imaginary friend Jayson.”
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Scan The Battlefield — As you walk to each interview take a quick look around the
lawyer's office and sit down. The nick-nacks, photos, and curios in an office speak volumes about the
lawyer and the firm. You should feel like Jay Leno at the Improv. This is terrific "material." You can
learn about a lawyer's education, family, practice interests, and personal interests just by looking
around the walls, desk, and credenza. Think of it this way: if you were interviewed at home, law firms
would know more about the real "you."
Sit down and get comfortable. Evaluate the interviewer. Were they familiar with your
resume. Were the questions thoughtful or hackneyed? Did they take five telephone calls during the
interview? Did they refer to themselves or the firm in the third person? Did they know the
coordinator or associate who dropped you off at their office? Did they know how to find the office that
they were taking you to? What percentage of your questions could they answer? Did they ask you silly
gap-filler questions such as "well, who have you seen so far?" or "What can I tell you about "the Firm?"
What Areas are "Off Limits"? — We're all concerned about finances. While you
shouldn't ask a given lawyer about her or his earnings there is no reason not to ask other detailed
questions. What is the firm's long-term indebtedness? What is the ratio between the lowest and
highest paid partners? How does the senior associate and partner compensation process work? The
"starting line" is only the teaser to a fascinating film about compensation. In fourteen years I've heard
less than a dozen insightful questions on this important topic. Question away.
We are all concerned about hard work. It's no secret that lawyers work hard and that
the profession attracts hard-working people. All law firms track hours. Ask a hiring partner what the
firm, department, and city averages are for hours charged to clients. Ask a lawyer or two what their
average hours have been. Ask how this effects the compensation and promotion process. You may be
surprised by the range and inconsistency of answers you receive on this subject.
If you want to know about practicing and parenting, be persistent. Ask how many
women lawyers have children? How many are equity partners? That half of the new associates are
women is entirely irrelevant to any firm's long-term track record on this important subject. How has
the part-time issue been handled? Ask to interview with lawyer parents . Ask lawyer parents about
how they handle the demands of juggling work, marriage, commuting, home and the like
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D. Questions to Ask Associates
There are no magic questions to take through the interview process. There are only areas to be
examined. Life is one long extemporaneous speech. It is not canned dialog. The student who prepares
and understands the areas which are significant to her decision will know where to focus her questions.
The student who simply recites canned questions is no better than the interviewer who
asks the proverbial dumb question ".....So..what can I tell you about the Firm?" The process is akin to
cross examination. To prepare for cross one examines the issues and the relevant facts and then
develops questions. One does not simply ask the same rote list of questions from office to office and
firm to firm. So, begin with your concerns. Typical areas of concern of talented second year and third
year students can include the following
Areas of Interest and Inquiry for 2L's Considering Large Law Firms
Summer Program Evaluation and Development
Assignment Systems Frequency and Contacts
Rotation to Departments Mentors and Advisors
Evaluations / Advisors / Degree of Client Contact
Offer Timing and Statistics Responsibility - How Much / How Fast
Typical Assignments Training - Formal and Informal
Practice Area Information Hours / Lifestyle / Diversity
Practice Area Background Chargeable Hour Requirements
Assignment Systems Pro Bono Activities & Hours
Typical Case or Matter Size Diversity - Track Record
Work with other groups/depts/offices? Women Lawyers - Track Record
Economics Firm Issues
Salaries / Bonuses / Clerkship Bonuses Growth - Current and Future
Clerkship Bonuses Advanced Standing New Offices - Practice Areas
Parental Leave - Part Time - Related Recent Growth / Mergers etc
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Be An Active (Not Scripted) Cross Examiner -An excellent trial lawyer will not script
her cross examination. Rather, she will outline areas, master the important documents, anticipate
areas for impeachment, develop introductory questions, listen to the answers, and follow up with
meaty and focused queries. More than 85 percent of all students simply ask rote questions. Time and
again students will complain that employers have the same flaw---nothing but the same dumb
questions without any consideration for the resume. You will distance yourself from the pack if you
ask intelligent and relevant questions.
The Interviewee 3 Step —Ask-listen-follow up —Most interviewees are exhausted and

tense when they enter the interview box or the lawyer's office. They're tired from class, worried about
the interview, and burdened by all that goes on in a student's life. The natural reflex is to retreat to
your usual questions—ones that are comfortable and easy to lob across the desk. The trouble is that
most of those questions sound bored, canned, superficial, and disinterested. Recall the number of
times you have been offended that lawyer seemed ill prepared for the interview.
Consider for a moment how the lawyer feels when you lob canned questions that they
have heard a 1,000 times before. Same problem. Same result. The trick is to apply the skills of a trial
lawyer to the interview. Treat it as a deposition. You are trying to elicit facts, focus the discussion,
learn, lead the witness, and nail down crucial issues. Any trial or appellate lawyer will tell you that they
depart from their prepared outline many times in response to the ebb and flow of testimony or the
questions from the court. So too must you adapt. While it seems obvious and intuitive at a child like
level, you must listen to the answer. It will suggest the next question. Many students are so tied to their
outlines and rote questions that they fail to follow up, just as many new trial lawyers seek the comfort
of their outline and ignore fascinating misstatements and admissions by witnesses.
Why I am asking these questions? To impress the employer? Perhaps. More

importantly, you are trying to gather information that will help you decide. You must always consider
why the question is important to you. Not why it is important to others in your class. Not why it will
impress the interviewer. What follows is an outline of areas you may want to consider. The following
are focused on younger lawyers. I offer the broad question followed by a reason to pursue and focus
the inquiry.
Tell me about your most important cases or transactions
This introductory question can generate a useful dialog about what an associate is actually doing--not
what the firm says lawyers do early in their career. It is a far better litmus test of a firm's practice than
a general query which elicits a 30 second monologue about four famous cases the firm has handled in
the past year. And, because you are playing into the interviewer's ego, you are likely to learn a lot about
their practice that is a specific indicator of what your experience would be like as a new lawyer.
Tell me how these cases and transactions are staffed

(partners /associates / seniority / reporting lines )?
This is a terrific litmus test for responsibility and client contact. If someone is part of a two person
team they are likely to have more responsibility than someone working at the bottom of a five person
pyramid.
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How does the evaluation process work? How often are you evaluated? How is it
delivered? Do you know the names of the attorneys who turned in evaluations?
Avoid their private concerns but learn how an associate views the process. The underlying satisfaction
or frustration should be apparent to a careful listener. All firms have evaluation forms and committees
of one kind or another. But you will want to know how often young lawyers are reviewed, how the
process works, how it impacts compensation, whether reviews are anonymous, etc.
How was the firm effected by the recession? Did you see changes in hiring, attrition,
promotion, business flow, average hours, types of work?
A tough but fair and important question. You are not asking a firm to launder its economic clothing
in your presence. You are seeking data on changes in the firm, plans for the future, and a sense for how
the profound economic changes of the early nineties effected day to day life in a firm and plans for the
future. Young lawyers should be surprisingly open on this subject. Follow up questions could focus on
attrition within younger ranks, how average hours have changed, nature of the work. Again, the
reaction is as important as the answer.
Tell me about supervision, Mentoring and training.
Again, be specific about how the interviewer participates in all of these --- not the general firm "line"
on how things are supposed to work. Ask about mentoring, advisor systems, writing programs, in firm
and outside CLE programs, and anything else of interest. Ask a lawyer about the time commitment in
the area----number of programs, hours spent in a typical year, etc. The day of the Renaissance-Person
is fast coming to an end. Nevertheless, there are substantial differences in approaches to professional
development. Some firms are quite organized, others haphazard, most somewhere in between.
Tell me how you use Associates at My Level in your practice? Focus on particular
matters and learn how This Lawyer works with Lawyers at your level.
This will cut through the fog of adjectives in firm brochures about what goes on in a summer program.
If the associate is a former summer associate, ask about their specific work experiences. You may want
to follow up on what percentage of work was for clients and what was "firm"(and perhaps
"make")work.
Do you believe that the support systems are excellent?

How could they be improved? Is your personal experience
consistent with the overall experience within the firm?
Your quality of life can depend on many factors---only some of which seem obvious-- will you share
a secretary with 2 or 3 or more other lawyers or legal assistants what type of computer will you have
(office, walk up, laptop or other) range of other support including library, accounting, and
secretarial. Every firm will have a strength and an Achilles Heel. Perhaps only partners and senior
lawyers have personal computers. Sharing a secretary with three or four lawyers can be a killer.
Administrative concerns should not drive the decision but you should make every effort to avoid
unpleasant surprises in this area. Much of your well being in any professional environment depends
on the effectiveness of the support systems.
34
Other areas of inquiry might include how do you use junior associates in your
practice (or summer associates) Tell me about the working relationships with partners -- do you
work through others or directly with the key partners on a matter How does the assignment system
work in practice (does work really come through a committee or do you just hear from partners who
need help) Is your work concentrated with a small group of partners or clients? How does the
evaluation system work---do you receive direct, candid comments? Do you know who completed
reviews? Do associates know where they stand compared to their peers? How has your view of the
firm and its pluses or minuses changed between when you were a student and today?
E. Questions To Ask Partners
The concerns and perspectives of a partner will be vastly different than those of an associate. First, the
partner may well be in a different generation. Second, they have a longer-term historical perspective
on the evolution of the firm and its practice. Third, their practice responsibilities are different---they
are up front with clients and have responsibility for generating business, billing clients, collecting
funds, and managing the affairs of the firm. Finally, they will know more about the "culture" of the
firm.
Consider the environment on the partner's side of the desk. You are one of about fifty
matters she will handle during the day. The partner is concerned about a raft of pressing client
matters---meetings, agreements, correspondence, negotiations with adversaries, billing memoranda,
marketing engagements, and all of the other travails of the modern law practice. She is thinking about
the business of practicing law. So, tune in to this station. If you show some interest/concern about the
law as a business and where the firm is heading, she will see you as someone who has a longer term
point of view than simply landing the job. Many of the lawyers who you meet don't view interviewing
as a first love. They view it as an unfortunate interruption in an already jammed day.
If the dialogue between you and the partner focuses on the business of practicing law,
you will learn more, the partner will be impressed, and the interview will be much more successful.
While the law is an admirable calling and an esteemed profession, in 1993 it is, without question a
business.
While there are many areas that are worthwhile exploring with both associates and
partners, what follows are areas to explore when you are meeting with a partner.
What practice development challenges does the firm face?
Some firms may be "sticking to the knitting" and not expanding beyond their traditional areas of
expertise. Others may consider department or geographic expansion. For example, some firms are
gearing up for a resurgence in real estate work. Others are scrambling to add health law specialists to
consult on employee benefit issues. Every year brings new trends that partners try to anticipate. In the
past 5 years special emphasis was placed on environmental, bankruptcy, and intellectual property
lawyers.
35
I have heard about marketing, competition for business,

"beauty contests" and the like. How has this changed in the past few years?
Is the ability to market important to hiring or Promotion Decisions?
What do you do to train your younger lawyers to develop business?
Most partners will be delighted to talk about marketing, competition for business, cross-selling and
the like. It is new and important territory for everyone in the profession.
Tell me about your most interesting current or major cases / transactions?
Again, you are playing to ego. But you will learn more about what a partner really does. Follow up with
questions about staffing. Zero in on the type of work that is given to lawyers at your level. This is the
best way to test the practical application of staffing policies and philosophies. All firms claim to have
lean staffing and to give responsibility out faster than the competition. The truth is considerably more
complex and flows from the 1 on 1 relationships between billing lawyers and 'working lawyers.'
How do evaluation systems work for associates, and partners?
Once the issue is on the table, have the partner focus on her experience with or opinions concerning
the process. Ask if she perceives any problems or ways it could be improved. Ask how an associate
should make the most out of the process.
What factors are most important in a decision to hire or promote?

How have these standards changed?
This admittedly broad question can begin an important dialog about a partner's viewpoint on the real
factors in hiring and promotion. You can go beyond the issues of GPA, law school, and the like and
learn quite a bit.
How do you think the firm and its practice will change in the future ?
This can launch a dialog about several important subjects. Follow up in the following areas:
additional cities or practice areas changes in partner associate ratios changes in the prospects for
promotion changes in the economics of practice---e.g., will rates or billing systems change, will
competitive pressures increase, etc. compensation systems for associates and partners pressures
to bill hours or generate business types of cases and transactions that will be handled growth---
static, rapid, shrinking, unknown---
I would like to know more about associate compensation and benefits

How are raises decided? Are you on a lock-step system?
Does the firm Have performance bonuses?
What role do chargeable hours play in bonus calculations?
While this area is sensitive it is important. The opening salaries for new associates are usually a matter
of public record. There are enormous differences in the compensation systems and levels for
experienced associates. The following should be of interest is compensation lock-step or are there
ranges within a given class what percentage of compensation for experienced associates is based on
hours or client business generated/collected is there a minimum number of billable hours?
36
What can law firms do to control expenses --- leaseholds, computers, support staff
salaries and fringe benefits, insurance, etc?
This is tough but sensitive stuff. You are not asking someone to open and lay bare the firm financial
statement. But you are opening a door to a subject which is near and dear to every partner's heart. The
typical law firm nets only 30-35 cents on every dollars of revenue. $1 saved in expenses is worth $3 in
additional revenue.10
F. Turning The Tables: Answering Questions
"Time Of Possession" - Is there a magic percentage of time that you should speak or
listen during the interviews? In a word, no. Scores of books on interviews quote percentages with
mathematical precision guiding students toward trying to dominate the interview or, in some other
books, to letting the interviewer control the session. Whether an interview is successful does not
depend on how the time is allotted. Time of possession is important (but not determinative) in
football. It means far less in interviews.
How is the Question Asked? Is the interviewer asking the question in a confrontational
manner? Gentle, but probing? An obvious filler or time waster? Is the interviewer bored and
distracted? Is the interviewer simply going through the motions and working her way down a checklist
(mental or actual)? Does the expression on her face remind you of the eternal wait between 2:30 and
the end of the school day in 4th grade? Or Property, for that matter? Pay attention to the voice, eye
contact, and manner of the interviewer. The same question means many different things depending
on the way that it is posed?
Listen to the Question - In 15 years of preparing witnesses to testify, I always cautioned

them to listen to the question, pause, reflect, and answer. Often the first phrase of the question
generates an automatic reaction, and a scripted canned answer that fails to appreciate the nuances and
detail of the entire question.
Answer the Question - Directly and Briefly - I am reminded of the advocate who
declined to answer a question from a judge, saying "Your Honor I will get to that later in the
argument." That's almost as audacious (and foolish) as saying "Your Honor, why don't you write your
questions down, give them to the Bailiff, and I will try to get to them later on this morning."
Believe it or not, advocates and students run for cover when they hear tough questions.
Don't be defensive or evasive. It won't work. On any area. Get to the bottom line first. Remember
that lawyers have to deal with tough questions, bad facts, hostile judges and all the rest every day. This
is your first chance to show how you handle pressure.
10
Additional areas that may be worth discussing include the following. How will the firm adapt to
pressures to cap total bills, limit increases in hourly rates, or meet other requests from corporate clients? Are the
days of the hourly rate numbered? Do pressures to cap hourly rates result in better work for younger associates?
Do clients prefer work to be done by partners (and perhaps more efficiently) or by associates (at a lower hourly
rate but with a lower efficiency level)? Has the pressure on rates and bills limited the ability to introduce young
lawyers to clients and have young lawyers learn by observation (going along to court, depositions, negotiations,
closings, client meetings, etc)? If more and more business is done subject to caps and budgets---what impact will
that have on long-term opportunities for promotion and on compensation for partners?
37
G. Questions You May Be Asked
Tell me about your Grades.....
Comment — Yes, firms have cut-offs. But all firms will reach beyond the cut off to find
exceptional students. You must answer the question specifically and directly. Don't claim that you do
not know your grades or you haven't calculated your average. Strange as that may seem 10% of
students try that tactic every year. I don't know where they get the idea. It doesn't work
Answering strategy & options — My GPA is a 3.2. It places me in the top --% of the
class (if you know). My grades improved steadily from semester to semester. With the exception
of one poor grade in the first semester my GPA would be 3.4 rather than 3.2 I would like to offer you
my writing sample, which I think is far more representative of my potential as a lawyer. I encourage
you to call the references listed on the bottom of my resume who can tell you about my work last
summer (or during the year)
You were raised in California. Why are you interested in New York?
Comment — The question is not malicious. Firms are burned every year by students
who profess an interest in their city, but never settle there (or who stay briefly and then leave in a year
or two).
Answering Strategy and Options — My spouse (sig other) have decided to settle in
New York. He was raised here and his family still lives here (a powerful and credible explanation) I
have decided to leave California; my family ties are not strong; I ve spent a considerable amount of
time researching New York, examining the firms, and talking with lawyers in the community. It is the
city that matches my practice interests the best. And I noticed that your firm has 31 lawyers who
were born and raised on the west coast or went to school out west and settled in New York.
Tell me about your Years with Smith & Barnaby?

By the way who are they? And why did you work in Cleveland?
Comment — The interviewer wants to know how well you performed, what kind of
work you did, and why you chose a different city last summer. This is a very important question. It is
not intended to evaluate whether you enjoyed your work. The employer wants to see how you did
outside the 4 walls of the school, whether you received a job offer at the end of the summer and
whether you worked on challenging projects.
Answering Strategy and Options — I had an excellent summer with Smith & Barnaby.
They are a 40 lawyer trial firm in Cleveland that is a spin off of Jones, Day. Most of my work was in the
trademark and securities area. I received an offer to return next summer. I encourage you to call
Jill Simpson, who is the partner in charge of the summer program. Her number is on the bottom of
my resume. Here is a sample of the work I did; Naturally, I have masked it to conceal client names
and obtained the permission of the firm. I chose Cleveland because the 1L market was exceptionally
tight. My plans are to settle in your city.
38
Who else are you interviewing with in Seattle?
Comment — A possible throw away but the interviewer wants to see how serious you
are. Know the list of other firms. Cold. Don't blow names. Do not infer that Seattle is one stop of your
Grateful Dead Fall swing through the northwest.
Answering Strategy and Options — Your answer should be "I have contacted the 5 or
6 leading firms that match my practice interest and background most closely." If pressed for specifics
mention the names, accurately and without bravado.
What can I tell you about the firm?
Comment — A possible time waster by a bored interviewer or a sincere question by

someone who wants to sell you on their practice. This is not an insulting query. It opens the door for
you to display that you have detailed, specific questions and follows ups as discussed above. When this
question comes embrace it and take control of the interview. You would be surprised at the number
of Forrest Gump meets Al Gore interviews that are dead on arrival once this question is posed.
Answering Strategy and Options — This is great news! The interviewer has opened the
door for you to take control of the interview. You now have the chance to select topics, guide the
conversation, learn and assess. The interviewer will be impressed if you view this as an opportunity.
Even (and especially) if the interviewer seems weary and unfocused, this gives you an opportunity to
bring life to the process. Just as in an oral argument, you welcome any chance to exert control over the
direction of the conversation.
What do you think you will be doing 10 years from now?
Comment — Not a trick question. Usually sincere but not intended to upset or confuse.
Remember, the partner asking the question probably asks the same question of himself frequently and
is just as uncertain about "the" answer (if one exists).
Answering Strategy and Options — Few of us have concrete plans during school that
are 95% certain 10 years down the road. At a minimum, don't say "I am not sure---perhaps private
practice, or teaching, or working in house." That shows indecision, ambivalence, confusion and the
distinct possibility that you really have no long term career interest in working for this firm. Instead
say, "I hope to be a partner in a firm like yours. I am not certain I know what specialties will attract me,
but I want to grow into a versatile lawyer who can help build the firm's practice (produce clients), teach
younger lawyers (manage and help the firm grow), and develop a core group of clients and specialty
interests that are valuable to the firm (team player and common sense). This is not pandering to the
audience. This is sensible.
How do you feel about long hours, travel, demanding clients, tough judges and all the
adversity in the profession?
Comment — The questioner may be probing you, looking for ambivalence or weakness.
Or it could be an attempt to throw you off balance.
39
Answering Strategy and Options — I've always been a very hard worker and while
I haven't charged my time I think I have a fair idea what a demanding schedule means. As for
demanding clients and tough judges, that doesn't seem so different from tough professors and moot
court, or a lot of the work I did in business before I came to law school. It's part and parcel of the
adversarial system and one thing I really enjoy about the process of legal education.
Your background is in history and political science?

Do you think you would fit in here?
Comment — Some firms place a higher premium on students with finance or science
backgrounds. Others see a student whose resume looks academic and not oriented toward the business
world.
Answering Strategy and Options — I hope some of the skills I learned in college
(where my GPA was a 3.8 in the major) will carry over to the practice of law, although it's impossible
for me to know. In my second year I am taking 6 courses in the Corporations / Securities / Business
/ Taxation area that will give me as much exposure as any law student to these fields. I am taking
a Corporate Finance course at the business school in the winter term so I can learn more about the
language of business from the business person's point of view.
Why do you want to be a lawyer?
Comment — An admittedly time worn, and perhaps inane question. Usually a throw-
away, but it must be answered with care.
Answering Strategy and Options — Few students have wanted to be lawyers since
birth. Most are the first lawyers in their family. Regrettably some came to law school because the doors
to med school were closed or because it seemed to be a better option than graduate school. Unless
you experienced an epiphany in 4th grade that led you to the law, you might consider a straightforward
answer (not a shaggy dog story) that highlights what draws you to the profession (advocacy, problem
solving, business development, working with tough issues, whatever) and emphasize that your
exposure to the profession to date has confirmed your hunches. There is no need to wax eloquent
about you and Brandeis walking down the same lane in life.
What is your greatest weakness?
Comment — A tough question and a bit obnoxious. It will be asked by "stress"

interviewers and others.
Answering Strategy and Options — Do not spew forth tangible foolish weaknesses that
make you look unemployable. Instead, take a negative and make it look like a positive. No one will
fault you if you say, "I always work harder than most of my peers and I am not satisfied unless and
until the final stone is turned."
40
What was the toughest problem you handled This Year?
Comment — They're looking for brain cells here. Take the question and run with it.
Employers want to see a demonstrated ability to work hard, write well, solve problems, and deliver
results.
Answering Strategy and Options — "Last summer I researched a controversial
contract formation issue arising from a defective letter of intent in a failed corporate acquisition. The
question included the laws of three states, which were in conflict, and an acquisition of a $50 million
company that was abandoned. The partner wanted to develop a motion for summary judgment but
was uncomfortable with the state of the law in the 9th circuit.
Over three weeks, I spent 95 hours developing a new angle that was incorporated into
the briefs that were filed at the end of the summer. I encourage you to call Susan Winston at Smith &
Jones to discuss the quality of my work. Her number is at the bottom of my resume." If you venture
into hard core legal issues, know your stuff. If this is the tough issue you worked on this summer and
you fumble the question, stumble over legal terms or cannot explain your opinion you will appear to
be closer to Bozo than you are to Brandeis.
What is your husband's profession? Do you have children?

I see you're expecting children? Do you plan to work part time?
What's a 'cute girl' like you doing in law school?
You remind me of my daughter..
Comment — All are patently offensive and illegal questions. Sometimes asked by evil
people; more often by buffoons and pathetic but harmless septuagenarians. However they are asked
more often Apply the six R's -- recognize, react, respond, recover, record, and report.
Answering Strategy and Options — Try to read the interviewer and the purpose of the
question. Do not answer the question. Instead - say "I'm sorry; I don';t understand how that
question is relevant to an employment decision. And, I'd appreciate you tell me why it is." That will
probably elicit a bunch of stumbling apologies or incoherent justifications.44
If you want to walk out, walk out. But if you detect a sincere apology you may wish to
proceed. When you leave the interview record your best recollection of the comments and report them
immediately to your Placement Director or Assistant Dean. They will carry the laboring oar responding
to firms. While sexism and racism are hardly dead in America, substantial progress has been made in
law firm interviewing. The random bovine question will be asked but you should understand that 90%
of law firms are very sensitive about avoiding this type of debacle and concerned that some errant
partner will turn them into the second 7.1 million dollar victim of a harassment verdict.
Finally decide how you want to pursue the matter. It is a personal decision, an intensely
personal decision. Don't become a cause celebre for the law school community; it's draining and
contributes little to the employment battle. If necessary consider engaging counsel but make certain
that the counsel is your lawyer not the mouthpiece for an organization whose agenda may not be
entirely consistent with yours.
41
Would you mind if I called you after the interviews for dinner.
Comment — Yes, this question will be asked at least once during interviews. Count on
it.
Answering Strategy and Options — Again, "I'm sorry; I don't understand how that
question is relevant to an employment decision. And, I'd appreciate you telling me why it is." You
might add that "I don't mix my personal life with career issues." That will probably elicit a bunch of
stumbling apologies or incoherent justifications.
What's the biggest disappointment you have had to overcome?
Comment — A serious and important question. Think carefully. Don't target

something from the distant past (high school). Stick to something tangible and either economic or
legal in nature. Try to identify a tough problem you have encountered, explain what made it
difficult, how you attacked it, what you accomplished and how you solved it. Whatever you settle
upon, you must show that you are a problem solver, not someone who remained mired in failure and
could not figure your way out.
Answering Strategy and Options — For example, "I was assigned a dead sales
territory for Sanford Steel Company. I was new to the industry and margins and sales were falling.
Over 3 years I increased sales in my territory by 55% and added several major accounts." Or," I
stumbled badly in first semester exams in law school. It was a great disappointment. But I developed
a plan to visit each professor and seek guidance; I took practice exams and learned to study more
efficiently. My grades went up substantially the second semester."
What do you want to accomplish as a lawyer? Do you have specific goals? Have they
changed since you came to law school?
Comment — This is usually a soft-ball introductory question not the definitive

metaphysical inquiry. Nevertheless, many students appear not to have given enough thought to what
they want out of the profession. There is no one right answer.
Answering Strategy and Options — You may want to become an outstanding trial
lawyer. Or, you may want to develop an expertise in an emerging specialty area. There is nothing
wrong with letting a little ambition shine through as long as it does not rise to the level of obnoxious
arrogance. Being uncertain, evasive, or vague doesn't get you anywhere
42
Are You a team player? Do you prefer working alone?

Have you ever had an unsatisfactory experience
working for someone (or when someone worked for you)?
How did you handle it?
Comment — Whether you work in a firm of 2 or 500 lawyers, team work is essential.
You will work closely with clients, adversaries, other counsel, and colleagues. People who don't enjoy
a team environment or who are too single minded to work effectively with others are likely to fail in
the profession.
Answering Strategy and Options — Tell interviewers you are a team player. If you
played a team sport, work on a journal with others, have a moot court partner or a partner in a clinical
program, those experiences will provide ample ammunition to explain why and how you are a team
player. We've all had bad experiences with supervisors or subordinates but don't use this question as
an opportunity to criticize others for whom you have worked. Falling into the pit of disparagement
creates an impression that you may be insubordinate at worst and inflexible at a minimum.
What cities are you considering? What firms are you considering?
What are your practice interests? Do you intend to clerk?
Why did you choose a large (or medium, or small) firm?
Comment — All of these questions are designed to screen candidates. Students with
vague or odd practice interests or expectations are a risky prospects. For example, a 3L who wants to
dabble and is ambivalent about her practice interests is a high risk candidate. As to geography, candor
is important but you put yourself at risk if you say, "I am looking at 4 (or more) cities." The employer
will view you as unfocused and as a candidate who is likely to go elsewhere. Should you fib to an
employer? No. They will discover your misrepresentation (or you will stumble over yourself during
interviews giving different answers). Similarly, a student who is all over the lot and is interviewing with
a mélange of firms with widely disparate characteristics will be seen as a shopper who does not know
what they want.
Answering Strategy and Options — Be specific and brief. For example on geography
you could say "I have limited my search to Seattle and Portland. I have decided to settle in the Pacific
Northwest." A student who says, 'I'm looking at Chicago, Washington, and San Francisco" exhibits
indecisiveness. Unless that student has deity like grades, the mix won't impress anyone.
On practice areas and interests the rule of thumb is that the farther along you are in law
school the more an employer wants to hear that you have chosen a field. The day has passed when
firms want to develop Renaissance Persons. Rotation programs died during the recession. The
indecisive dabble is an economic risk to an employer.
On firm choices, feel free to identify a range of firms on your interview list or specific
firms. If you are considering firms that are different in size or practice emphasis be prepared to say
why. Saying that you are covering the waterfront and protecting your options is honest, but it's not
necessary. You are better off giving a direct, brief answer such as "I've narrowed my search to leading
firms in complex commercial litigation. Size alone is not the determining feature. Trial lawyers work
in small teams in small firms and large firms. I'm looking for the best opportunity, no matter whether
43
it is found in a new boutique, a branch office of a national firm, or the home office of a large firm. After
an interview the real work begins in earnest.
H. Debrief, Distill, Compare & Decide
While the temptation is great to leave, find your favorite beverage, and tell terrific anecdotes to your
friends, the higher priority is to continue your strategic efforts to bring the process to a successful
conclusion. This chapter discusses what to do after the interview concludes and before you sign on the
dotted line.
1. Debrief and Record Impressions - The interview dance is complex and exhausting.
You will meet scores of lawyers, ask countless questions, and feel as if you have been put through a
mill. Like the moment you awaken from a dream the impressions are fresh and sharp as you leave a
firm. Two days later the nuances fade and it is often difficult for students to sort out the differences
among firms. When you leave a firm, take 30 minutes to reflect on the day and pose the following
questions:
What were my specific and general impressions of the key features of the firm?
What open items exist --- were the answers to my questions complete and consistent? Do I
know what I need to know to make a decision. Did I see enough lawyers "like me" (gender, age,
practice interest, whatever) to have a feel for how it will work for me? Do I understand the
nitty gritty about assignments, compensation, promotion, structure, organization and all the
rest?
Is what I saw internally consistent with what I read in brochures and heard from the on
campus interviewer? If not, why not?
How did lawyers relate to each other? Cordial? Distant? Did the lawyers really know one
another? How did they treat support staff? Is it a real open door environment? Did you see
a level of warmth and collegiality consistent with your temperament and aspirations? Along
the continuum of Animal House to the Sistine Chapel there are many environments — each of
us finds a small range to be consistent with our interests and behavior.
Do I really know the answers to the tough questions I wanted to ask about problems the firm
may have (e.g., decreasing size, lack of growth, compensation, partner or associate
terminations, etc.)
Are my gut impressions (a touch of Giverny and Monet) consistent with my impressions before
the on campus interview. If not , why?
Do I feel as if I have learned about a career or have I been sold a car after a dizzying parade of
people tossing adjectives and generalizations at me?
Record your notes in any way that works for you. My preference would be a long outline
that you keep on your laptop. Handwritten notes have a way of getting lost, left in hotel rooms, or
otherwise left behind.
2. Self-Evaluation - How Did I Perform? — There is always room to self evaluation and
improvement. NFL athletes spend hours reviewing film and preparing for the next opponent. Leading
44
athletes in other sports spend time with t heir coaches and trainers analyzing the last game in order
to prepare for the next. The best trial lawyers study transcripts and audio / video tapes to see how they
could do better. An expert sales person always asks herself what she could have done better to prepare
to make the sale. Sit down and go over each interview session and ask the following questions:
Did I sell myself and my strengths consistently and enthusiastically?
Did I ask specific informed questions, listen to the answers, and focus my follow up questions
on the interviewers personal experiences and opinions?
Where did I fall short? Did I blow a major question? Did I dance or flummox on a tough
question about grades?
Was I nervous? Did it show? Why? Was it a lack of preparation or a healthy animated
nervousness that it is nothing more than performers' butterflies?
Did I stay loose and focused throughout the interview? Was I sufficiently rested to put my best
foot forward? Was I tense from exhaustion, travel, caffeine, or course work?
Did I blow any of the basics? Show up late? Forget people's names? Forget to bring extra
copies of resumes and writing samples? Blank out when asked if I had any specific questions?
Avert my eyes and lower my voice when asked tough questions?
Be self critical without being destructive. Learn from the experience and the next time you will be
much more effective. Too many students just leave an interview, feel grateful that it is over and seek
refuge in their favorite cable channel or domestic carbonated beverage. Please strike a balance between
careful self evaluation and paranoid self criticism. Don't just head on to the next interview and hope
that your gut instincts will help you carry the day. Find the seeds of greatness in the lessons you learn
about your prior performances.
3. Administrative Details - If the firm reimburses your expenses, promptly complete

and return their reimbursement form, with receipts attached for any item of $20 or more. The faster
it gets to them, the faster you will be paid back. Normal turnaround is 7-10 days after receipt from a
firm. If you must be reimbursed more promptly, ask the firm by phone - call the recruiting coordinator
when your expense report is going in so it can be expedited. It goes without saying that you should be
scrupulously honest about your expenses. Every Fall, 1-5% of students abuse this process. Most are
caught. The results can be catastrophic for your future. If you visited more than one firm on a trip and
they have agreed to divide the expenses, you can bill each firm separately or bill one firm that will be
reimbursed by the others. Ask the firms for their preference. Don't monkey around with oddball items.
Last minute changes on your air travel can double the cost of a ticket and cause internal problems with
the firm.
Generally, firms will pay one night's hotel and air fare for an out of town interviewer.
Longer stays went by the boards at the end of the 1980's . Few firms fly spouses along for the visit and
almost none will invite in your 'significant other.'11 Calling a firm late in the season to schedule a
11
During my third year at Michigan I interviewed with a now closed Houston law firm. A week after interviews
(continued...)
45
Friday interview (or an interview right before a holiday weekend) is a sure sign you are using them to
bankroll your interviews. Don't do it. It doesn't work.12
4. Thank You Notes — Somewhere Emily Post is smiling about lawyers' penchant for
papering firms with thank you notes. Try to put it in perspective. A short personal note to the on
campus interviewer and the recruiting coordinator thanking them for their time (and for any special
arrangements) is always a nice touch. I don't know if it has ever turned a decision, but there's no
question it is the polite thing to do. It is not necessary to write individual notes to all seven lawyers
with whom you interview.
5. Waiting for Godot — the days after your visit and the day you learn of a firm's
decision will be anxiety provoking. Here's how to handle it. Remember to ask an interviewer how long
the decision process will be (they'll probably say 1-2 weeks). Confirm that with the recruiting
coordinator. Understand that hiring committees meet once or twice a week in the fall to review dozens
of candidates who were interviewed in the past week. There is an inevitable lag. If you are interviewed
on Friday you may not be discussed until the following Thursday's meeting. And your decision may
be tabled at that meeting if a lawyer neglected to complete her evaluation or a firm is waiting to
hear from other candidates. You are not warehoused or put on a formal waiting list, but the decision
may take a while. If two weeks have elapsed, and you have not heard, pick up the phone and call.
If you must know sooner for a sound reason (another offer that is about to turn into a
pumpkin) make a polite inquiry and say "I'm sorry to trouble you. I enjoyed my visit with you
tremendously but I am in the awkward position of having to respond to a competing offer in the next
X days. Do you think I will hear from your firm in advance of that time?"
6. Follow Up Visits - It may be sensible to schedule a return visit to a firm if you have
received more than one offer and are trying to make a choice. Most firms are receptive to this concept,
provided you don't wear out your welcome mat and become an indecisive annoying pest and you
don't turn the whole exercise into a shaggy dog story that shows you to be incapable of making a
mature decision about your career.
11
(...continued)
they invited me to bring my then fiancé (now my ex) along with me for interviews - at their expense. Then over the course of
the next two weeks they changed their mind three times about this decision. I learned later that some partner on the hiring
committee felt this might violate the Mann Act, the federal statute prohibiting the “interstate transportation of unmarried women
for immoral purposes.” W hen they were in Ann Arbor the junior partner hosting the dinner for invitees had a few too many pina
coladas - was passing drinks around the table and somehow lost his wallet on the floor of the restaurant. He dropped to his knees
to search under the table and then had a little difficulty getting fully upright. All in all a strange M onday interview experience.
12
I will never forget the Michigan 2L I interviewed in 1989. A bright student with a 3.7 GPA he arrived
20minutes late for interviews, and came to my office reeking of Marlboros. He asked me if he could “have just one smoke”
because “he had been out late with the ZYX (competing firm) boys last night and 'still felt a little wasted.” I gave him his one
smoke and pulled the ditch lever. A year before my wife and I were chatting about hiring - she was then hiring partner of her
distinguished Chicago law firm. W e happened to discuss a Michigan 2L who had interviewed with McDermott and was due in
her firm next week. A day later I happened to chat with my brother, a partner in the Los Angeles office of L&W . As I put 2 and
2 together I figured out that the student had received an offer from my firm accepted an offer from Latham but was
nevertheless coming back to Chicago the next week to interview with Jenner & Block. The student arrived and tendered a list
of people he wanted to meet with Jenner & Block. Audacious? Maybe. Brain dead stupid? Absolutely.
46
Make your return visit informative. Don't ask about 'early responsibility.' Instead ask
the associate you meet about specific examples of responsibilities, reporting lines, and staffing on her
current principal matters. Ask partners how they use 1st-2dyear associates today on current matters.
Cut through the recruiting haze and get specific information. You will march from vague generalization
to reality briskly. You will feel more comfortable with your decision. Law firms like to ‘close the deal’
when you return to their offices. It is all to easy to succumb to the temptation to have another great
Italian dinner and chat with mid-level associates whose sole purpose is to reel you in. That’s fun but
there is work to be done. Law firms roll out “the best and the brightest,” the charismatic and the gifted,
the charming and the eloquent. That’s because they are in a fist fight for talent. But the student should
have another agenda: to gather the information needed to make a decision. Don’t drown in this
tsunami of good will. Just keep your focus and gather the information that you need.
7. Make the Decision — Many lawyers have great difficulty putting the job hunt to bed.
Having struggled for so long, when confronted with a choice or a deadline they develop duodenal
ulcers. That they are concerned is a positive sign. That they are indecisive is a harbinger of problems
in practice. The lawyer who bounces back and forth about cities, firms, types of work, is likely to be
equally equivocal when it comes to client work. Life is not a law school hypothetical. You must collect
the information, distill it, compare it to other data, and make a decision. If you have done the work
along the way, the right answer will loom ahead like the castles of Oz. If you have been asleep at the
switch you will be confused. For Frank Baum fans, he wrote The Wizard of Oz while gazing out of a
Chicago apartment window ninety some years ago looking out over what is now known as Oz Park -
two blocks from my home.
This decision is one of many important decisions you will make about your career. But
it is only the first such decision. One reason it so stressful now is that you do not have a basis of
comparison - you have not practiced and had a chance to compare lawyers and firms and understand
how they match your pulse and temperament. Most lawyers who graduate in the 21st century will have
4 or more employers during their career. If you do not land the dream job you aspired to during law
school - there is a good chance that you can do so 2-4-6 years from now. In fact, when you are 2-4 years
out of law school you will witness a fascinating and substantial migrating pattern worthy of study by
expert ornithologists - where some lawyers who chose mega firms move to smaller firms and others
who began with mid-size firms take the plunge into the mega-firm pond. The same is true for cross
migration between government and private practice. Do not despair. With a strong record from a
leading law school you will have access to almost all the options the profession offers to young lawyers.
8. If you are rejected by a firm, accept the news and move on. Like a smart securities
trader, don’t fight the tape. Too many students waste way too much time trying to decipher why a firm
said “no.”It is not worth the candle. What you have to do is take the next step with employers where
you are still in the game or with employers where you plan to submit your resume. Deciphering law
firm behavior is tough enough once you live inside one - don’t spend scarce hours looking from the
outside in trying to puzzle why the answer was ‘no.’
9. If you run into serial rejection - it is tough to deal with. Step back and try to
understand why. The OCS can be of great assistance here. In my experience it usually because of one
or more of the following factors lack of credible ties to the community aiming too high - i.e.
shooting for firms who seek students with higher grades lack of preparation lack of an obvious
interest in and commitment to private practice passive indecision about what you want to do
giving off vibes that this coming summer or practice is just another fellowship on a road to somewhere
47
else poor interviewing skills / poor personal habits failure to be involved in activities outside class
that demonstrate hard work, writing ability, and dedication to practice (e.g., journals, moot court,
clinical programs, etc.) taking too narrow an approach - interviewing with too few firms failure
to contact firms who do not come to campus but who are very active in entry-level hiring. A bit of self
analysis is always warranted. It is not fun or easy - but it is terribly important
If you have an offer in hand and you are concerned about an issue discuss your concerns
directly and bluntly with the law firm. If you want information on hours, percentage of offers given
/accepted, partnership promotion, partner compensation, plans to expand/merge/etc, just ask.
Effective recruiters know the answers and effective recruiters are willing to talk about tough issues.
When you ask a question rely on concrete data - don’t be bulldozed by adjectives or another great
French meal.
Sometimes law students and lawyers find asking for help to be the hardest step. It is,
they believe, an admission of weakness. Far from it. It is the truly gifted professional who knows
her/his limitations and knows when to ask for help. Other more superficially arrogant or confident law
students or lawyers believe that a J.D. empowers them to solve all of life's problems - tuck pointing,
theology, literature, medicine. You name it they can do it. Again, wrong. Get the help you need. You
will be happier. Your loved ones will love you more.
D. Can I Find A “Perfect” Firm? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?
ame the firms with great lifestyles, supportive and friendly partners, lots of mentors, a
N commitment to parenting, salaries high enough to pay off my debts in 6 years with no
pressure to develop business and a guarantee of partnership (and frequent sabbaticals)?
This tough question cannot be answered. There is no perfect law firm - and despite the
warm fuzzy noise of recruiting every law firm has strengths and limitations. You have chosen a
demanding field where clients expect the best advice from the best lawyers.
The explosion in associate compensation caused significant and permanent changes in

law firms' expectations for new associate performance, the tolerance for slow starters, and th
likelihood of promotion. This generation of new lawyers will work harder, compete harder, and be
under greater pressure to contribute (produce business) than was ever true in the past. That’s the
reality of practice in the new millennium. But the desire to find the best law firm in an imperfect world
is a legitimate quest. Do not assume that size is inversely proportional to culture and supportive
colleagues — I know many refugees from large firms who are dismally surprised by the fact that their
hours and pressure do not go down when they move to smaller firms and even more troubled that what
they thought would be collegial culture with group hugs and aroma therapy calendar is actually a firm
where the pressure to produce is paramount.
48
Law students must understand that there is no “one” firm that fits.13 Ignore law school
hearsay. Most is inaccurate, superficial, and out of date. Ask yourself how the friend of your friend
knows that XYZ is a 'sweatshop' but ABC is 'family friendly.' Students should use their lawyerly
skepticism without being cynical. The price to be paid for high salaries is that the differences in hours
among firms (which were never as great as rumored) have narrowed to the point where they are almost
irrelevant. Lawyers work hard voluntarily because of ambition and drive.
Practicing and Parenting - The Best, Most Important, and Toughest Jobs You Will
Ever Have Life is full of choices— it is not an all-you-can-eat buffet. The firm is neither your fiduciary
nor your parent - they may run you harder than a sled dog in the Iditarod (and feed you ell) but you
have to make a choice. Choose your spouse with more care than you choose your law firm - and
communicate with them about hours, kids, and life. Don't become a 21st generation reprise of Gift of
the Magi. Feel free to call or write for my forthcoming article - “Parenting is a Team Sport.”
The law firm is not a lawyer’s fiduciary, spouse, or parent and it cannot remedy the
inherently demanding nature of the most elite law firms. It would be like asking a Recon Marine or
Army Ranger to stop training. It’s been inherent in the experience for a century. And regrettably some
students and young lawyers feel that it is the law firm’s obligation to somehow change the nature of
the profession - and it that is just not likely to happen. At least one can voice an opinion and survive
most understand that there are tough problems that firms can’t solve and the dialogue continues.
But beware the firm that claims to have found the solution, that trumpets a bit too loudly their
treatment of family issues or women lawyers. It could well be one of the firms that cleverly dresses up
its numbers and really is no different than its less clever competitors. As with many other areas it is
a long, bumpy, difficult walk out of the Stone Age on fundamental legal / social issues, something I was
reminded of yesterday when I read an excerpt from a United Airlines in-flight magazine from 1957
which proudly advertised “men only Executive flights” between New York and Chicago - something
that survived until 1970.
If you and your equally ambitious spouse want to run with the big dogs, carry the leash
in your mouth, and have children - live downtown, get the help you need on child care, and you will
have more flexible time and more total time to spend with your children. Do not assume that size is
inversely proportional to culture and supportive colleagues. I know many refugees from large firms
who are dismally surprised when hours and pressure do not go down when they move to smaller firms
and even more troubled that what they thought would be collegial culture with group hugs and aroma-
therapy candles is actually a firm where the pressure to produce is paramount. Mentoring evolves. It
cannot be assigned, feigned or forced.
The interval for starting a raising a family overlaps with the most demanding years as
a lawyer. You have chosen a tough and demanding profession. The years when you learn your craft,
develop your specialty, gain acceptance, earn a promotion, and cement relationships with client are
13
As Viper said to Maverick in Top Gun, describing a dark military secret, “what I am about to tell you could
end my career.” Don't assume that mid size and smaller firms are more parent friendly. First, they may have little or no
experience with women associates and partners who want to take parental leave. Second, their more modest size and structure
makes it more difficult to add and subtract 1 person for 4-6 months or have them to part-time. Third, the shallowness of the back
up pool may make it harder for you to make your time and life more flexible or to find the attorney help you need. Fourth, the
resources you may have at a large law firm (staff, library, legal assistants, computer networks) may not be as strong - which will
also make the end of the day a novel rather than a short story. Small does not always mean 'collegial, supportive, gentle and
empathic, any more than large means hostile, evil, venal, and insensitive.
49
in direct and substantial conflict with the years when you start and raise your family. That will not
change. What you can do is discuss with your life partner the choices you are going to make in order
to manage the process as effectively as possible. For those of you who are not parents but believe that
you will be somewhere down the road - there is really no way to put into words the benefits and
burdens of parenting. It's the most rewarding and demanding job you will ever have. It's
unpredictable, time consuming, draining, exhausting, and fascinating. And that's just in the first few
days after you bring a child home from the hospital. Setting aside the moments of wonder and awe -
it is also tiring and difficult. There will be days when your eyelids ache. There will be nights when you
can't sort the burdens of work from the burdens of parenting. There will be sleepless dawns followed
by demanding days. 14
Several years ago I participated in a panel discussion on “Practicing and Parenting.” I

like to speak last and was given 20 minutes to cover my views on the subject. The other panelists were
gifted, interesting, practical, and thought-provoking. I decided to cut my presentation down to 20
seconds - “There are three cornerstones for happiness in practicing and parenting (I) live downtown
(II) get great child care and (III) don't marry a (expletive deleted) 'jerk.'” Rippling laughter was
followed by a lively dialogue about the third 'rule.' In my experience in practice and as a head hunter
I've seen all too many careers of women lawyers de-railed, side-lined, obstructed, and terminated
because their spouse is not willing to carry the burden of parenting as much as they hoped would be
the case. There's enough shattered expectations mixed with passive aggressive behavior to fill a week
of Dr. Phil. The bottom line: communicate with your loved one about hopes, dreams, fears, concerns,
and professional ambitions. Raising a child and making the run for partner is very challenging. It is
not impossible. But it can only be done effectively with a substantial mutual investment of time, hope,
and effort. The law firm is not your fiduciary, your parent, or your babysitter. Most of the solution to
the challenge can be found in your hands, heart, mind, and home.
Most law firms have made progress in the past 20 years on understanding families and
the outside lives of their lawyers. But it’s been hard sledding for many reasons. It is a tough issue to
discuss - because it’s highly-charged and quickly raises tempers and blood pressure among partners
and associates. Women account for 45% of the class at most of the nation’s leading schools but only
5-12% of the equity partners at many leading firms. At many other leading firms the number is far
lower. And in the ranks of corner office partners, partners, who run client relationships, and partners
with a real role in senior management the numbers are lower still. This is true for many reasons - some
acceptable, many not.
The ranks of senior partners (50 and up) are the classes of 1979 and older - where most
law schools had 20 percent or fewer women in the class. Attrition of women in that class range was
very high in the 70's and 80's and there were few survivors. In the next group - the classes of 1980-
1990, the percentages in law school rose, but attrition remained far higher for women than for men.
In this group one finds more two professional marriages with both spouses having (or having had the
potential to have) equally profitable and demanding careers. There the picture is a mixed. To be sure,
14
You may even suffer from A.C.D.S. ( “Advanced Clown Differentiation Syndrome”), an illness not yet
officially recognized by the Mayo Clinic. One day you are downtown driving the big rigs, handling the big cases, jetting from
coast to coast to meet mega clients and discuss gargonzo deals. It's exciting, rewarding, fascinating and it validates all of your
ambitions and drives. Then three years later you are sitting on a random Saturday afternoon watching a flotilla of toddlers
cascading around a Chuck E Cheeze. The entertainment arrives and you think - “gee I saw this clown at a party three weeks
ago in Naperville.” You evaluate his skill and wonder if you should hire him for Jason's birthday party next month.
Congratulations. You have now caught A.C.D.S. I recommend treating it with a nice bottle of Cabernet with your spouse.
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there are more women survivors and there are many women emerging as those who control or who
will control client relationship (read billing credit) and play a role in senior management. Still many
firms cannot resist the temptation to provide ‘window dressing’ to enhance their survey reports by
loading up administrative committees with a disproportionate number of women to make it appear
that women have a greater say in management than is actually the case. The legal media has done a
terrible job of peeling the layers of this onion and frankly many law firms are quite gifted at delivering
data that the media simply accepts without question.
But there is room for some optimism. In the more junior ranks - the classes of 1995-
2002 the picture is not fully developed but is very interesting. This generation bears the brunt of the
brave new world of firm economics. Men and women alike will have to work harder, endure greater
pressure, and face longer odds in the partnership derby. And in this group couples are - in my
experience - marrying earlier and deciding to have children earlier. And because they are starting
families earlier they come face to face early on in their career with the time issues discussed earlier.
I. Split Summers —Attractive But Dangerous-
Many students ask if they can split their summers between two firms in two cities. As a hiring partner,
I grew weary and skeptical of these requests. They suggest an unacceptable level of risk. When a
student announces that they would like to spend the second half of the summer with firm X in Chicago,
I can reliably guess that the student will not settle in Chicago. While it is difficult to wrestle with
underlying personal issues that should and must drive geographic decisions, I strongly recommend
that students make a decision during their second year.
Many students divide their summer among two or more firms, a practice which appears
desirable for students when making decisions during the fall of the second year. By the time the
summer rolls around, the risks become clear. What seemed wrapped in Solomonic sensibility last Fall
is risky — you want two firms to place complete faith in you even though your loyalty is divided.
You split the summer — you assume the risks of failure. A less than sparkling
performance is more likely to result in a ‘no-offer’ decision. The risk of not receiving a permanent offer
is greater for students who split their summer. There is less time to recover from a blown assignment
or a bad review establish relationships, understand a firm’s practice and make a reasoned decision.
Both firms know you have divided loyalties. Whether or not you admit it publicly, the firm where you
spend the first half of the summer is your first choice. But since you decided to split, here is how to
minimize the risks.
The burden is on you to perform above and beyond the call of duty throughout both
halves of the summer. Do good work and lots of it. The file for someone who spends only six weeks
will be quite thin. If you are not zealous and energetic, you stand a good chance of having only 30
percent of the reviews and work product of those who work the entire summer.
If you arrive mid way through the summer, many lawyers are on vacation. Those who
are not wish that they were. The firm is weary of the summer program and it is hard to find good
assignments. In the dog days of August, these problems are acute
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Assimilate in both halves of the summer. Do not ever say “This dinner is not nearly as
much fun as the private room we had at Postrio before going to our black-tie backstage party with the
original Broadway cast of Mama Mia.” Poor form, Fabio. Very poor form — especially since the
original Broadway cast doesn’t tour — and because the play premiered in London Do not tell stories
about your six weeks at Winslow & Homer because it will sound as if they are your first choice.
Still want to ‘split’? I give up. If your significant other is back in city #1, do not bring
luggage to the office on Friday before running to LAX to catch the shuttle to SFO. It shows a lack of
commitment. Scrupulously protect the confidences of the first firm. Do not tell tales out of school
about its internal politics, events, or recruiting shenanigans no matter where they fall on the boundary
of the attorney-client privilege. Finally, do not pout if your are not immediately embraced by the
summer associates already in residence. All those people are not really staring at you and whispering
as you head to the elevator. Or are they? You showed up six weeks late for summer camp.
J. Negative Selling - A Dangerous, Misleading, Tactic
It is crunch time for 2L's and 3L's. You're awash in information - some of it concrete - but much of it
ambiguous, amorphous, second hand at best. The dissonance of hearsay collides with the harmony of
recruiting. The effect --- a confusing cacophony which causes stress and indecision. This year perhaps
more than any in the past ten, I've heard stories of "negative" recruiting. A lawyer with Jones and
Brown disparages Johnson & Smith. Negative recruiting takes many forms but usually appears in one
of the following forms.
A partner whispers negative sweet nothings about Mr. X who left his firm for another
and says in words often less subtle than what follows "no real loss (a snort here for effect), he was on
his way out anyway. and by the way all of his business stayed with us.”
A partner refers to the negative atmosphere or culture of the XYZ firm. Of course he
has never worked there and his information is dated and impossible to prove.
A lawyer refers to "problems" over at Smith & Jones. He intones that these problems
are "serious" but of course cannot put any real beef on the bones, because there is not any beef to be
applied.
A lawyer says "all of their litigators are unreasonable jerks" (precise words attributed
to senior partner of leading Chicago firm twice this week). The student who listens does not know that
the aforementioned oracle had his head bashed in on a major case by the other firm earlier this year.
He also does not know that their alleged insensitivity to requests for extensions of time might just be
justifiable retaliation for comparable incivility.
A lawyer at a premier firm said "I never see their corporate lawyers." Of course he
doesn't - he is both incredibly unperceptive and intellectually astigmatic. The lawyer works in a
specialized area where the other firm does not - thus they may not see each other, but it really does not
matter.
"Well, you know they are looking to merge." Give me a break. So is every firm worth
two nickels in a toll booth box. Law firms of all sizes evaluate potential combinations on a daily basis.
It is a fact of life in the 21st century. A law firm not considering the pluses and minuses of potential
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business combinations that should consult its own EAP or go to a costume store and rent ostrich
outfits. “They don't give responsibility early." Really? How does she know. Was she a junior associate
there? Perhaps her best friend Wilma does not walk on the fast lane of gifted avenue and her less than
satisfactory experience was fair under the circumstances. What is the basis for the assertion? Have you
field-tested it with lawyers inside the firm?
"XYZ is a sweatshop" but we "value our life style." Get that man a roll of velcro and tell
him to get a grip. The comparative criticism of hours is one of the most widespread, pathetic and
regrettably effective ways of recruiting negatively. It would astound most proponents of this line of
balder-dash that the average client hours of associates and partners in the 10 largest firms in Chicago
(and the largest of the national firms with offices here) are remarkably similar - when averaged out
over time. But senior partners know (and junior partners should) that (I) the hours are not as high
rumored in their own firms or elsewhere (ii) that many people with legendary hours do so voluntarily
because they are ambitious and driven and keep score with their watch. That is the nature of the beast
and it is present to some degree in any firm. The typical top performing Chicago lawyer bills
1,900-2100 client hours a year. In a 46 week year (3 weeks vacation, 2 weeks holiday, and 1 week lost
to the ages), that is 7.5-8.3 billed client hours per day (assuming you work 2 weekend days per
months). That means 9-12 hours a day in the office. That is not bad for $125,000 - or $1 million a
year.
Smith & Jones is full of jerks (polite word substituted). Every firm has, shall we say, a
range of personalities. Some over the top, others reticent. Some aggressive, some passive-aggressive,
and others not aggressive at all. Others who think image is everything and some who are more
introverted. Look around your law school class. There are those with "limitations" who have strong
analytical abilities. That's life on this planet and there is no getting around it. Does any one firm have
a higher RAQ (random as***ole quotient)? I doubt it. There are, to be fair, many lawyers who if they
had just done better in organic chemistry would be happily employed as proctologists. But there are
far more who are exemplary professionals who are joy to work with. If you don't like variety, stress,
pressure, and all the rest, get out of the game because the field, the players, and the rules will not
change to accommodate your view of how the world should be.
None of the real pros in law firm hiring believes that negative recruiting works. All
do their best to stamp it out. But a word to the wise is probably useful. Every firm has more than a few
partners who feel this is effective. Try your best to use moral suasion so reduce this. At the end of the
day it is counter-productive and it screams insecurity more loudly than the speaker can possibly
imagine. So if your mother would not want you to do it, and it is ineffective, then silence might be the
order of the day. Regrettably, the current environment of uncertain times probably encourages this
- I certainly saw it during the recessions of the 1970's, 1980's and the profound dip of the early 1990's.
Far better to stand above the fray - exude serene self confidence - and actually say nice things about
the competitors. One of the first things taught in the program where Mercedes and Lexus sales people
are trained is that one never criticizes the vehicles of another manufacturer.
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Beyond OCI: Strategies In The 2009 Market
his Fall many law students will have to explore opportunities beyond on campus recruiting
T (“OCI”). This includes 3L’s who did not receive offers from their 2L summer employer
3l’s who for personal reasons are considering a different city 3Ls whose credentials are not
going to be strong enough for the handful of firms who come to OCI to consider 3L’s. For
2L’s the problem is similar — many 2L’s will not be able to land an offer through OCI - gain for various
reasons competition from other students at their schools supply demand issues in the cities they
are considering or simply a poor showing at OCI.
This section outlines the steps a student must take. The advice is intentionally blunt -
because it’s a tough market where dabbling or passive behavior will fail. I don’t presume to draw lines
in the sand at any school or for any students. There are too many factors which are unique to a student
- e.g., law school grades and trends, undergrad school and record, honors, law review, journal, moot
court, summer employment, practice area interest, writing ability, and your demeanor. Your career
services counselor has your best interests at heart. Listen carefully to hear what they tell you as
opposed to what you would like to hear.
The 3L market this Fall will be tissue thin. And 2L opportunities beyond OCI will be
fewer in number and far harder to obtain than during the mini-boom of 2004-2007. The recession has
taken hold nationally and no pundit, politician, economist or law firm partner can predict with
precision its length, depth, or the impact on classes now attending law school.
Along with corporations, investment banks, commercial banks, and accounting firms,
most law firms are cautious about hiring. In most major markets, setting aside IP specialty firms, less
than 10 percent of the firms who visit campus to hire 2L’s plan to interview 3L’s this Fall. For 3L’s who
need (or wish) to consider an alternative - the answer is likely to be found through an aggressive,
immediate, comprehensive, and thoughtful outreach campaign.
3L's should not assume that any firm that comes to campus interviewing 3L's will have
more than handful of slots available. The 3L market will be messy because some 3L's holding
permanent offers who are not really serious will dabble and make it tougher for those farther south
in the class to compete. And, 3L's will find the radar screen cluttered with students who are not
serious, but who are exploring options or just playing the field. This will make the Fall frustrating
although by the end the season a fair number of 3L's without other options will have landed a job. In
the 2009 market, students must be cautious with their assumptions, aggressive with their outreach,
creative with their strategies, and sparkling when they have an interview. A 2L who is too optimistic
about her chances or who waits too long to launch a direct outreach campaign has put her career at
risk.
3L's must explore one or more of the following options. All are time consuming. And
I don’t know which firm will respond to you or when it will happen. If you keep your head in the game
and develop an all out plan of attack, you will ultimately be successful. It may take 300 hours of your
time. It won’t be fun. But it will ultimately be successful - even in a really lousy market. There is a lot
to do - some of it as exciting as watching cement set. Some steps will be frustrating because you will
hit dead ends. Networking efforts can stall. But if you do 5 things each day - every month you will
have taken 150 steps.
© 2009 KIMBALL PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT - 312-212- 4271 FRANK@KIMBALLPROFESSIONAL.COM

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Launch your effort by August 15th . If you wait until September 15th , it’s “game over and don’t
put in another quarter.” This Fall’s 3L market will fill up faster than a Vespa’s gas tank. Don’t
put this exercise on a morphine drip. This is a mass marketing exercise - not rifle shots once
a week until you need to put in a fresh clip. Many students allow a string or two to play out and
then take another tentative step or two. That tactic is ineffective, counterproductive, and
doomed.
In November 2972 the United States Air Force deployed a record setting number of B-52
bombers during Operation Linebacker in the last months of the Vietnam War. Taking off from
Guam and Thailand the bombers flew in a straight line toward their target. The North
Vietnamese arranged their anti aircraft along that line and were able, for the first time, to shoot
down many B-52's. The Air Force wisely changed tactics and instead of flying in on a straight
line came in from every angle on the compass. Attacking from all points was incredibly
successful and led, in part, to the willingness of the North Vietnamese to resume negotiation.
What does this have to do with your predicament? You cannot attack in a single line. You
must multi task and attack from every point of the compass that makes sense. It will be far
more effective.
Identify firms in your market with >10/15 lawyers - deducting those who come to your campus
but are not interviewing 3L’s. Your Office of Career Services will have a variety of resources.
Meet with them and you may find resources that you’re not familiar with and specialized lists
that fit with your objectives. No one list is exhaustive and many lists students customarily rely
upon have a limited focus. Don’t overlook lists of where recent graduates have been hired.
Many mid size and smaller firms like to hire lawyers from the schools their partners and
associates attended.
For many markets (including Chicago) the better resources include www.NalpDirectory.com
(Great for firms that are active on campus but of limited utility for smaller firms
www.martindale.com (It was the gold standard but many firms are withdrawing from listing
for economic and other reasons) www.Vault.com (Your school may have Vault access free
for students - if not you can pay. Vault focuses on the larger firms - not the mid size and
smaller). Most schools which place heavily in Chicago have a terrific Excel spreadsheet of all
firms in Chicago with 4 or more lawyers.
Martindale’s directory on CD ROM is infinitely more versatile and powerful than its on line
cousin. Many schools have this resource - it can search more than 20 fields and results can be
downloaded in all of the traditional formats. Its primary limitation is that with each passing
month fewer firms are listed on Martindale and those who are listed provide less and less
information. Martindale also does not make e-mails a downloadable field so you have to take
that step manually which is time consuming and annoying.
A new tool used heavily by search firms is Leopard Solutions. www.LeopardSolutions.com I

don’t know of a more powerful versatile tool for lawyers, firms, search firms, or students - but
again it deals primarily with mega, mid size, specialty boutiques but not general practice firms
who are relatively less active in entry level and lateral hiring). It’s a powerful networking tool.
Last week I was working with two students who wanted to network with lawyers who had
served in the Marines and practiced in Chicago. In 30 seconds I generated an Excel spreadsheet

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with the following information about any attorney in the 105 leading firms in Chicago name,
firm, law school, class, practice area, sub specialty, language, states where admitted, whether
the lawyer had various academic honors, and cells where you could click to e-mail and a cell
with a click here to link to their bios. Once something is in Excel it’s easy to export to Outlook,
generate a mail merge, etc. This database crawls the internet weekly to get updated
information on all lawyers in leading firms. It also generates comparative reports on firms at
the practice area level so you can see if a firm is growing or shrinking. You can compare the
volume of lawyers who are original hires v. lateral hires.
Contact the firms - with an e-mail to either the hiring partner or the recruiting director /
manager. Include your resume, transcript, reference list, and writing sample. It does not really
matter whether the addressee if the hiring partner or recruiting director. Either is fine. Many
smaller firms don’t identify a hiring partner or recruiting administrator and may not have a
careers section to their website. In that case, write the senior partner or the partner from your
law school who is the most senior partner in the firm. Don’t carpet bomb a firm with several
resumes to several lawyers. It won’t work and will irritate the recipients. You’ll have to make
some judgments about whether a networking contact should be your first contact or the hiring
partner and there is no easy answer to that question.
Your cover e-mail should strive for simplicity - just the basics - name, school, year, preferred
practice area(s), whether you have an offer from your prior summer(s), and your tie to the city.
You can dispense with the inevitably awkward middle paragraph that spins a tale about the
harmonic convergence between your interests, a solar eclipse, and the firm’s practice. It will
sound tortured and pretentious - it won’t be read, and it’s not necessary. Other than that it’s
a great idea.15
Label your files simply. Please no “myresume.doc” - The firm must then re-label your resume
to store it and circulate it. How about “Smith Amy Michigan 2010 Resume.” Works for me.
On a reference list give the name, title, firm, phone, and e-mail address. Make it easy for the
firm to contact them.
15
This Wolverine worked his way through law school typing resumes and cover letters for my friends.
In the 1970's most guys could not type (considered uncool). Typing services existed which charged $3-5 a page. My
rates were the same but because I took up typing in the 3d grade I could type 90-100 wpm. Students were allowed
to pay by cash, check, or in kind (meals and beverages cheerfully accepted). Those speeds were on old Smith Corona
electric portable - durable dinosaur - today with a good wind, good air conditioning, and just the right caffeine level
I can hit 130-140 wpm with pretty good accuracy. The middle paragraph with the tortured prose was just as awkward
then as it is now. As som eone on the hiring partner side of the fence I can tell you that’s unnecessary at best and
potentially embarrassing and counterproductive at its worst.

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Submissions must be in PDF or Word 2003.16 Word 2007 for Vista is not backwards
compatible. Most firms use Word 2003 on XP. Some firms won’t have the conversion patch.
And a Word 2007 resume opened on an older system often loses some formatting details.
Word 2007 documents may not open on their system. PDF is better - it reminds me of the
great universal translation device on Star Trek. Simple, foolproof, and works everywhere.
If you don’t have a PDF converter on your laptop buy PDF Converter Professional - about
$99 and it can turn any type of document or image into a PDF file and assemble groups of
files easily as you would in packaging the various submissions to employers.
Don’t just send your resume. There is a rebuttable presumption of creeping Bozoism which
arises when a resume is not accompanied by a transcript. Think about it - is the employer
going to assume (a) you’re really just a shy genius descended from Thomas Edison or (more
likely) (b) there are some blemishes on your transcript that you’re worried about. I got a C+
in Criminal Law my first year at Michigan - I wasn’t excited about it when the transcript had
to go out - it’s a natural emotional reaction. Confront the tough fact, deal with it and go on.
Consider the “non-indigenous firms” (a new favorite term) - i.e., small offices of national firms
- there are over 30 in Chicago. They often have less demanding GPA standards than home
grown firms - and to meet their needs they must be flexible. Chicago has more than 60 such
offices; New York more than 150; Washington more than 175.
Don’t resist contacting smaller firms. First, thousands of lawyers begin and continue their
career in smaller law firms where they learn first chair skills far earlier than their mega firm
counterparts. Second, when the economy recovers as many lateral moves will be made from
small to large firms as are made in the opposite direction. Third, any lawyer should look at her
career as a series of platforms and steps and you may have to take a step or two more than
some of your classmates to land where you want to be.
You must identify your preferred practice area - just one. Ambivalence, indecision or a
willingness to “do anything” sends a very negative message. Now that hard part. You have to
pick a practice area that (a) fits your interests and (b) in which ample opportunity may exist.
That may mean dispensing with areas which are too small, too cold, or too selective to be a
realistic target. This again is city and practice area specific. You should and must confer with
your Career Services counselor.
Consider “secondary markets.” There is no shame in going to a city that is not #1 on your list.
With a solid record, and good experience in private practice there all kinds of people who make
a move 2-3 years down the road to their preferred market. It is an alternate strategy - kind of
like being in the qualifying round at the Masters or the wild card in the playoffs. You are in the
game but you must work harder. You can achieve your long term dream by making a lateral
16
W ordPerfect is still by far the best word processing program on the planet for desktop publishing
or the legal profession. It once dominated the market but was eclipsed by Bill Gates’ aggressive marketing of the
Office Suites. It is far more facile at seamless conversions to / from W ord and its PDF function beats the heck out
of Adobe. And it is backwards compatible. Any version of W ordPerfect opens any other version of W ordPerfect.
That’s too simple an idea for the Microsoft to appreciate - they’d rather drive us like cattle to their next version.
Bottom line - use Word 2003 or turn everything into a PDF file.

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move after 1-3 successful years in another market. Who knows - along the way you may find
that you like Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis or Denver more than you
thought you would enjoy California or New York.
However, if you do not have a tie to a market - your chances are very remote. If you have a tie,
no matter how tenuous, volunteer it to enhance your credibility. And since you are now
reading the media daily you’ll understand that certain regions of the country have regional
economies that are far more troubled than Chicago. Bottom line: targeting Denver because you
like to ski won’t work. Love latte - therefore Portland? Equally pointless.
Put your network to work. Using the lists you develop you can develop mail merge lists to
contact graduates of your school whose career path is similar to the goal you have in mind.
Graduates of law schools are often dog loyal and pleased to speak with a an alum. If
networking seems off putting or counter intuitive, invest $15 in Keith Ferrazzi’s Never Eat
Alone - the single best volume ever written on professional networking. Visit his website
www.KeithFerrazzi.com. You have to define your network but it should include people with
whom you have something in common or professionals with whom you have a connection or
shared experience, e.g., graduates of the same school - law school, college, or high school,
attorneys who were in the same branch of the service, members of the same social
organizations, former members of your journal or law review. It can go from predictable to
obscure - and sometimes the more obscure the better.
Consider the residual market in judicial clerkships which come to light late in the year - long
after most clerkships have been accepted by students very high in the class
Consider applying to a strong, relevant, sensible LL.M. program. I respectfully decline to offer
a roster of LL.M. programs that meet this standard. However, I’ll say with confidence that the
NYU Program in Taxation is the gold standard in terms of improving marketability to
employers in the mega firm bracket in major markets. NYU’s taxation LL.M. has been around
for decades and is accorded great respect by employers nationally. Now the hard part of the
conversation begins. More and more schools have more and more LL.M. programs.
Many of them provide fine instruction offered by gifted tenured and adjunct faculty. However,
a vast majority do little to provide an entry level pathway into the profession. Before deciding
to accept any LL.M. program, as the Career Services Office for a placement roster of firms or
companies where LL.M. graduates have been placed in the last five years.17 If you’re not
impressed, that should weigh heavily on whether you want to spend another year of law school
tuition earning a degree that is not valued by employers. I am not claiming that the degree is
not valuable in an intellectual sense or that the programs are poorly designed. That’s not the
question. The reality is that many of the programs don’t have an impressive placement roster.
17
Our database scans the internet daily reading the bios of every lawyer at the 1,000 largest firms in
the nation. It provides a pretty reliable snapshot of firms have hired LL.M.’s as partners or associates. The whole
question of placement and program quality is different than the lively debate about whether LL.M.’s are necessary
or additive to a professional’s skill set. Not surprisingly most lawyers who have had the experience think it’s
worthwhile and most who don’t have the degree see no point in squandering a year.

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Consider government agencies who do not begin hiring until the Winter or Spring. The Chicago
office of the SEC often hires lawyers in the Winter and Spring. So too do some other federal
agencies, The Attorney General for the State of Illinois and state prosecutors’ offices in various
counties. Don’t assume that your sharp suit and winning smile is an automatic ticket. All of
these employers will be flooded with applications from sparkling students from local, regional,
and national schools.
Alternative employers such as investment banks, commercial banks, real estate firms,
accounting firms and management consulting firms are far tougher to crack in the soft
economy than they were 12-36 months ago.
Most importantly - attack on a wide front and be persistent and creative. Every year I hear
disappointing reports from students who make one or more of the following mistakes they
wait too long to act they act selectively and let one string play out before trying something
else they are not pro active they walk away disillusioned and frustrated they spend too
much time blaming a firm, life, school, the market, etc. for their plight without grabbing the
bull by the horns they launch too narrow an effort and don’t keep at it. On the other hand
one of the most rewarding parts of my work is to hear from students who charge ahead,
network, interview effectively, and identify hidden opportunities. You have my best wishes for
success.
This article does not presume to comment on contract work or temporary agencies except to
note that they generally don’t work with law school graduates until they have been admitted
to the bar.
There are a few career counselors for lawyers who I respect tremendously. They charge
lawyers by the hour for their advice and they are worth every penny. They can be tremendous tools
for new and experienced lawyers trying to puzzle their way through career choices, life choices, difficult
moments in the profession, the road to partnership, assessing options in the profession and far away
from the bar. It makes absolutely no sense. Generally speaking they work with admitted and
experienced lawyers. However, if I were a 3L or recent graduate trying to find my way through the
thicket, I’d invest the funds necessary to work withy any of these experts.
New York’s Carol Kanarek, a ‘79 Michigan graduate who has a Masters in Clinical Social Work
from NYU and is the leading counselor to individual lawyers in the Wall Street community
(www.KanarekandBrady.com)
Chicago’s Sheila Nielsen (www.NielsenCareerConsulting.com ), a Bryn Mawr grad who

received her JD from Temple with extensive experience as a state and federal. Sheila has an
M.S.W. She is incredibly insightful and it’s hard to count the number of lawyers who have
profited from her advice.
Cheryl Heisler, a 1983 Northwestern graduate and former Katten Muchin lawyer who founded
Lawternatives in1988 (www.Lawternatives.com) . Cheryl is a guru at teaching lawyers how to
identify, pursue, and develop their interests in areas outside of the traditional paths of private
practice.

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They’re brilliant, supportive, irreverent, practical and are wise experienced observers of the evolutions
of the market place. They don’t deliver pre-package answers. Far from it. They counsel, guide, nudge,
support, question, focus, and provide a framework to build your career. I recommend them strongly.
A Cautionary Note
Search firms do not work with law students or graduates not yet admitted. They typically work
with lawyers who have more than eighteen months of experience or more There’s nothing
wrong with developing a relationship with a search firm when you’re in practice. I recommend
it. As a student they can’t earn a fee from placing you. It’s just not possible. Particularly during
a recession there is nothing search firm can do for you. If they claim otherwise ask for the
names of three people similarly situated who they have placed since the Fall of 2007.
Beware of any service which attempts to charge you a fee as a law student to design your
resume, offer career guidance, or design and conduct a mailing. Their special and secret lists
are not worth your time or money. Ask them to send you a list of 20 law students who have
taken jobs which they found for them in your city in the last year. Is that a dial tone I just
heard? These services are clever marketing contraptions designed, in my view, to dupe the
unwary, passive student looking for a quick fix. Caveat emptor. Using a service like this is
incomprehensibly stupid. Yes, it’s easy and someone you never meet, who probably does not
have a law degree, and probably never practiced with a soupcon of success is now going to draft
your resume and figure out where you should work. Why don’t you just turn it all over to an
aspiring graphic designer at the local copy shop or some edgy counselor you find on Craigslist?
If A Firm Says “No Offer” This Summer
t the end of the summer, some students will not receive offers. If you are hit by this truck,
A please read this section. First, your professional career is not over. Second, the profession
is full of outstanding lawyers who hit a bump in the road early in their careers. Do not
conceal, mis-state or paper over the truth. Lying about receiving an offer will be detected and
may lead to suspension from school or inability to be admitted. Face the bad news head on. That’s
something excellent lawyers must do every in their practice.
Papering over the truth or being obtuse does nothing to advance your career. This is
not unusual in the 2009 market - some firms (in all markets) hire more summer associates than they
needed (overshooting their mark in the Fall 2009 hiring derby) and because of continued economic
uncertainty are being conservative with offers. Many firms will be candid about their quandary. Some
will not be. Your job is not to instill morality or a commitment to truth justice and the American way.
Your job now is to preserve and protect long term professional options. The bottom line - there is no
up side in being quarrelsome or handling bad news poorly. To do so only makes a difficult situation
impossible. Yes I know the range of emotions is difficult, complex, and rapidly changing. There is
anger, dejection, hostility, disbelief, shock, and frustration. But you have to get back in the game and
build your career. One mistake does not mean your career is over. You can survive if you follow some
simple rules and dedicate your energy to advancing the ball rather than wallowing in the pit with a past
employer.

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Do not attempt to re-litigate the issue. The firm’s decision is final. Running around
seeking second opinions only makes you look immature and foolish. Try to learn why the decision was
made. Most firms will give you a pretty clear explanation of why they made their decision. In a healthy
economy where most firms need to expand their ranks quickly the summer associates fail because of
poor work habits blowing important assignments for important clients / partners attitude and
behavioral problems apparent lack of commitment to the firm, the city, or the firm’s clients/practice
inability to respond to constructive criticism. Ask if the partners who ran the summer program will,
nevertheless, provide a favorable reference.
This asks the firm to do something that is somewhat counter-intuitive. And, firms have
concerns (excessive in my view) that providing a reference exposes them to risks. Obtaining a reference
is critical. And, if the firm will not provide a favorable reference you still must be able to give the name
of a partner with whom another employer may speak. Perhaps the day will come when law firm X sues
law firm Y for giving a bad reference about a summer associate. I suspect that when that day arises it
will involve a summer associate whose behavior at both firms was atrocious, incompetent, or criminal
— not just someone who did some substandard work for one or two partners. When you are
interviewed by other firms your description of your summer experience must be brief, direct, and not
hostile. The following would be appropriate
I did not receive a permanent offer from Smith & Barlow. I did, however,
work for a variety of partners would encourage you to call Amy Hamilton,
one of the partners who ran the summer program in the corporate area. She
is familiar with my work. Her direct dial number is on my reference list.
You may be pressed for ‘the real reasons’ or the ‘real story.’ If the firm explained, for example, that you
did not receive an offer because of negative reviews from two partners, you should acknowledge his
but try to put the best foot forward
My reviews were mixed. During the summer I worked for 13 attorneys,

including six partners. I think Amy Hamilton is in the best position to
comment on the quality of my work and I encourage you to speak with her.
If the statistics are in your favor, it would not hurt to say “I understand that Smith & Barlow gave
permanent offers to only 50 percent of the summer associates.” But make certain your information is
correct beforehand. Next, do not burn your bridges with angry, insolent, or immature reactions. Do
not head back to campus and tar and feather your former firm. You look stupid doing that — even your
best friends will tire of your tales about all the jerks at Smith & Jones — and the word will get back to
your firm. If the news is bad develop a strategic plan to improve your marketability. I strongly
recommend the following to 3L’s and 2L’s who return to school following a ‘no offer’ decision.
Re apply yourself in the classroom. Your remaining semesters are now far more important —
not only to your present job search but to your options 1-10 years down the road. Write and
publish an article for that journal you joined law year, win moot court, —do anything that
demonstrates energy, writing ability, and intellectual excellence.
Stay away from non-graded activities which are social or administrative — focus on activities
that demonstrate brainpower and hard work. This is not a criticism of those activities - but

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your career search should come first and you have to build your platform brick by brick day by
day during your final academic year.
Build your references — get to know faculty members who can provide countervailing
references.
Re-evaluate your short term career objectives — there is no harm in not being able to join the
most prestigious large law firm in a major city the day you graduate. In fact, a lot of the lateral
hiring done by these firms at the 3-4 year level is of lawyers who began their careers in less well
known smaller and mid-sized firms.
Stay away from ‘soft law ’ courses. Employers look beyond GPA’s to course selection in
evaluating how you did in school. Do not take non-law courses, ungraded electives, soft-law
seminars and all the rest. And the courses may well have considerable value. But they are not
going to help you dig out of the ‘no-offer’ hole. Understand that you learned valuable life and
career lessons early -- that you can recover, that the opinion of one employer does not ruin a
promising career, and that bad facts can be overcome with candor, persuasion, and
persistence. There are many wonderful courses in law school or graduate schools that would
be eminently enjoyable and rewarding. But private practice employers are likely to respect the
student who stays engaged in school taking traditional courses related to private practice.
Focus on courses related to the area of law in which you want to practice.
Please don't insult employers' intelligence by getting cute or by dissembling. A student who
says “I asked the firm not to consider me for an offer” looks stupid. Even less credible is the
student who says “I withdrew my name from consideration” That dog don't hunt. The same
goes for the student who says in mid-September “I don't know” or “we have not heard yet,” or
my least favorite “the firm and I reached a mutual decision that a decision would not be made
on my candidacy.” This is not spin doctoring after the Nevada caucus. Learn to handle bad
facts and you'll be a better lawyer and a better human being.
Establish Credibility in Chicago
f you were born or raised in Illinois or attended college within 100 miles of Chicago you’re half-
I way home. If you have no such ties, please read this section with care. Just saying “my
grandmother got lost in O’Hare five years ago and we’re still looking for her,” won’t carry the
day. I will never forget the otherwise impressive Michigan student I invited to Chicago in 1990
- the last year of the preceding boom. On campus the student had announced that she was interviewing
in Chicago and “one other city.” By the time they finished a full day with my firm, she disclosed that
she was visiting Washington, San Francisco, New York, and “a couple of firms in Atlanta.” The student
did not receive an offer. Don’t appear to be a dilettante wandering America collecting offers. Ultimately
the student settled in Seattle and left practice in less than two years.

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Volunteering Information to Enhance Credibility
Yes. If you were born and raised in Atlanta, attended UNC and are now engaged to someone who lives
in Chicago, this fact will make you credible. Firms cannot ask you about this but you are free
to volunteer the fact. If a strong personal tie exists it can make you far more credible in a city where
you have no apparent ties.
Inventory Your Ties To Chicago — Chicago firms seek students with previous ties
to the region. The ties can come from family, birth, education, or work experience. In any year, 30
percent or more of the associates who leave a firm move to another city. Every hiring partner kicks her
or himself from time to time about extending an offer to a terrific prospect who had no ties to Chicago
and resigned after only 1-2 years to move to another city (or to move back home).
Apparent Commitment — Don’t be vague, ambivalent, or indecisive about your

interest in Chicago. If a hiring partner detects a lack of commitment or feels that you are just
experimenting or collecting invitations, you will not be invited in for interviews. There are, regrettably,
too many students at leading schools who play the field in the Fall. Firms grow weary of those who
dabble in their home town but end up elsewhere. You needn’t memorize the Bulls roster but you must
ooze sincerity and commitment.
The Special Challenge For Students At Top 15 Schools —Students at the best
schools must work harder to persuade employers they are serious about a city simply because
employers know they have more options. Employers' skepticism about your commitment to their city
derives from their previous painful experiences when they've hired sparkling students who quit after
1-3 years to move to another area of the country. It's not personal. It's business.
One of the worst nightmares for any hiring partner is the top student from the top
school who pulls up stakes after only 1-2 years to move to another city for personal reasons. For sound
policy reasons it is illegal to probe a student's private life - about their personal or romantic
relationships or family roots. Nevertheless it is a fact of life that a disproportionate number of top
students from top schools move to another city in 2-3 years after graduation - just when they are about
to become profitable contributors to their firms. There's nothing wrong with anyone's choice on
romance and geography. But students must understand that they will face considerable skepticism on
city choice.
Essential Reading About Chicago —
Whether or not you are a Chicago native, you must be conversant with the current developments in
the city — in the legal profession, in business, and in the metropolitan area in general. If you are not
a Chicago native you can go a long way toward establishing yourself as a credible prospect if you do
your homework. Out of the 168 hours of the week, take 5-10 and master the Windy City. The simplest,
and least expensive way to do so is found in the Library or on the Internet. Read the following
publications — lightly but with care
— The Chicago Tribune - to get the local flavor of Chicago. The Tribune Company is
lamentably departing from its tradition of depth and excellence but it is still the best game in
town for sports, local business, local news, and a flavor of the Windy City.

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Crain’s Chicago Business ( a weekly tabloid magazine about the business community)
The Chicago Daily Law Bulletin (the daily newspaper of the legal profession),
Chicago Lawyer ( a monthly magazine which is getting better with each passing year).
Chicago Magazine (not a deep read, but a great source of current gossip, restaurants, shopping,
etc.).
Read the articles in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal about Midwestern
companies.
Reading About the Profession and Interviewing
The name of the game is not to memorize the publications or to spend dozens of hours. It is to make
you conversant with trends and developments in the community. Five hours a week is a small
investment compared to the 40 year career you are about to begin. While you are at it, no young lawyer
should not fail to read
The American Lawyer (the best monthly national magazine on large firm practice),
The National Law Journal (an outstanding weekly national newspaper),
the business sections of the New York Times (yep, even if you want to practice in Chicago) and
the entire Wall Street Journal (there is not a business issue discussed in the Journal that is not
intertwined with a legal issue or two or three
For now I’ll let you skip The Financial Times. If you’re not sated, this section recommends
supplementary reading about interviewing, the development of large law firms, and the law
firm / law student minuet. Additional nominations are welcome.
Daily reading on the net should include www.AmericanLawyer.com www.NYLawyer.com, the

law blog of the Wall Street Journal http://blogs.wsj.com/law/ and for those with a taste for
a steady diet of salacious scandal interspersed with occasional stories with breaking news about
the profession www.AboveTheLaw.om.
Curious historians should read Marc Galanter and Thomas Palay, Tournament of Lawyers
(Univ. of Chicago Press 1991)(a detailed analysis of the evolution of large law firms) and Paul
Hoffman, Lions in the Street: The Inside Story of the Great Wall Street Law Firms, (1973,
Signet) (the first book to discuss the genesis of Wall Street firms).
A truly remarkable book was published in 1994 by Benjamin Sells, a Chicago-based

psychotherapist who was for six years a practicing lawyer with Jenner & Block. The Soul of the
Law (Element, Inc. 1994)is worth a serious read and re-visitation whenever you hit a rough
spot in the highway.

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To learn more about interviewing skills and techniques read Arnold B. Kanter, The Essential
Art of Interviewing — Interviews from Both Sides of the Table (New York Times Press
1997)(Kanter is a good friend who was for years the hiring partner of Chicago's Sonnenschein
Nath & Rosenthal firm. For fifteen years he has been a management consultant to law firms
and investment banks nationally on all aspects of hiring)
Harvey Mackay, Sharkproof - Get The Job You Want, Keep the Job You Love (Harper Business
1993)(Mackay's book is a wonderful compendium of real life stories of people who put
networking and contact theory to work in business. It lends credence to many of the theories
you may find foreign or unpersuasive. Readable and memorable);
Anthony Medley, Sweaty Palms —The Neglected Art of Being Interviewed (Ten Speed Press
1993)(this brief but excellent book focuses on the give and take of interviews.)
Freund, James C., Lawyering—A Realistic Approach to Legal Practice (Law Journal Seminars
Press 1979).(This is the single best volume on the nature of the partner associate relationship
in law firms. Freund, a former senior partner with Skadden Arps, walks the reader through
every aspect of attorney development. The book is practical and insightful).
For further reading on professionalism and the traditions of excellence of elite

organizations
Guy Kawasaki, Selling the Dream (Harper Business 1992)(Kawasaki was the ‘evangelist’ for
Apple Computer behind the development and marketing of the Mac);
Jason P. Rich, First Job, Great Job — America’s Hottest Business Leaders Share Their Secrets
(MacMillan/Spectrum 1996)( interviews with 30 leaders of American business who talk about
what drew them to their firms and other issues that are related to hiring lawyers);
Paul Hawken, Growing a Business (Fireside / Simon & Schuster 1987)(the founder of Smith
& Hawken describes how he went from one small classified ad in the New Yorker to a $50
million business and talks about his zeal, commitment, and focus on what he loves).
The best book I’ve seen comparing actual career path choices of lawyers is Richard W. Moll,
The Lure of the Law, (Viking 1990) (interviews with practicing lawyers about career choices
and dreams). Rather than simply listing many things one can do with a law degree he walks you
through the choices actual lawyers have made - from famous partners in mega firms to
satisfied lawyers in many other areas of practice.
There are scores of terrific lawyer’s autobiographies. One of my favorites is William O. Douglas,
Go East, Young Man: The Early Years, (1974, Random House). It includes chapters on his life
as a student at Columbia, as a young lawyer at Cravath, a professor at Yale, and as a founding
commissioner of the SEC.
It’s worth reading coming of age books about those in other endeavors. Some of my favorites
are Stephen E. Ambrose Undaunted Courage (Simon & Schuster, 1996) (Lewis & Clark
explore the Louisiana purchase at the age when we studied Con Law) Robert Klitzman, In

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A House of Dreams and Glass (Simon & Schuster 1995) (the stress of going through a residency
in psychiatry) Samuel Hynes, Flights of Passage (Naval Institute Press, 1988) (a young
aviator’s memoirs of learning to fly in World War II)
Professor Stephen Bergman, now on the faculty of the Harvard Medical School, penned In The
House of God (Dell Paperback) an NC-17 view of the life of interns in a teaching hospital in the
late 1970's. It has sold more than 2 million copies.
For further reading about the relationship between law firm management and the problems
presented by entry-level and lateral hiring I recommend Maister, David H., Managing the
Professional Service Firm (MacMillan 1993) ($40). Maister is the leading international
management consultant for professional firms. This text is a masterful collection of his
thoughts on every aspect of professional firm management, structure, economics, and
administration. ·Maister, David H., True Professionalism (Free Press) (1997) ($25). Practice
What You Preach: What Managers Must Do to Create A High Achievement Culture (2001); and
The Trusted Advisor (2000) (this collection of essays provides sparkling advice on
management, client service, profitability, and other core issues).
Other favorites on law firm management and economics include Henning, Joel, Maximizing
Law Firm Profitability: Hiring, Training, and Developing Productive Lawyers (Law Journal
Seminars Press 1991)($90). Written from the vantage point of someone who counsels
managing partners it offers a valuable perspective far different from those who work primarily
in the hiring vineyard Quinn, Bailey & Craig, Law Firm Accounting and Financial
Management (Law Journal Seminars Press 1994)($95). If you want to understand more about
how law firms manage their cash and human resources, this is the Bible. You don't need to
know a debit from a credit to appreciate the common sense of this work
Jacob Stein’s treatise The Law of Law Firms (Clark Boardman / West Group 1995)( Stein’s
contains extensive state specific footnotes on issues including partnership formation and
dissolution, conflicts of interest, retirement plans, and enforceability of controversial
partnership agreement provisions)
Robert Hillman’s Lawyer Mobility - The Law and Ethics of Partner Withdrawal and Law Firm
Breakups (Aspen 1997)( an exhaustive treatment of lawyer mobility)
Mark H. McCormack, The Terrible Truth About Lawyers: How Lawyers Really Work and How
to Deal With Them Successfully, (1986, Beech Tree Books -- William Morrow)(s an irreverent
but quite useful guide to how lawyer and non-lawyer clients can work effectively with lawyers).
Give Me A Break Frank! If I Wanted to

Join A Book Club I’d call Book of the Month!
Hold on Sparky, I’m just warmin’ up. You are entering a profession where you will be
respected by employers if -and it is a big if - you show passion about your career. That’s more than a
great gray pinstripe from Paul Stuart (although that’s a nice start). You must immerse yourself in the

66
profession, media about the profession, and feel at one with your choice. Someone just passing
through is somewhere between a grifter and a dilettante at best or just someone who doesn’t seem to
care at worst. In either case, it’s game over, don’t put in another quarter.
Spend 2 hours a day this Fall and for the rest of your career staying current on the
profession and your specialty area. Your clients will be able to tell. Bifocals aren’t that bad. I’m told
you look smashing in them although it’s tough to tell from Vienna where this is being written on a
Sunday morning waiting for two of the three smartest people I’ve ever known to wake up and attack
the city. Yeah Dad’s got his reading and writing to do - because as Shannon says “that’s Dad.”
So, to complete the ensemble, I conclude with a list of publications related to your
career choices. Where can you find those two hours? I was a law student too and while much has
changed since the Stone Age of the mid 1970's I know there is some time that can be displaced from
the bath tub of life in the interests of the quest for employment. I won’t tell you what my 2 hours of
wasted time per day were and you won’t have to tell me yours. Deal? Or no deal? You’re the fiduciary
of your career. It is as simple as that.
Kimball Publications And Personal Advice For Students
I am pleased to discuss career concerns and provide complimentary copies of our publications to
students at the schools where I presented programs (Michigan, Northwestern, Harvard, Duke, Illinois,
Virginia, Indiana, Loyola University Chicago, and Georgetown). 18 A few rules for the road
I am not a substitute for your Career Services counselors. They know far more about your
school and a tremendous amount about the market. Most of the time our opinions will be
remarkably similar. When we differ, it’s usually a subtle difference which reflects different
vantage points in the process and only establishes that there is no one right answer to the
myriad issues which arise during any student’s quest for employment. Or it could be that a
facet of your predicament that you shared with one of us was not shared with the other.
Career Services does not create the market. The veterans of Career Services have seen many
economic cycles and have watched the evolution of the profession nationally. They are the
selfless and cautious guardians of the gateway to the profession and a source of candor and
conviction in a world where both are in short supply.
I’ve had the privilege of interviewing and presenting programs at nearly 30 law schools and
getting to know the Assistant Deans for Career Services and their teams. They bring an array
of experience to the table. At most schools the OCS has lawyers and non lawyers who have
worked in many settings. The range of their experience makes their advice to students with
wide ranging interests. And, they work daily with students from your law school and have an
18
If you’re a student from another school or a director of career services at another school - please
contact me for prices for individual and school annual and perpetual site licenses. If your school would like to invite
us to present complimentary programs to your students, please call. W e always have room for a couple of more
schools on our roster.

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inestimable and invaluable “feel” for the market. Sometimes you won’t like their advice - but
that usually reflects their candor and experience.
Send me your resume and transcript, in PDF or Word 2oo3. Tell me in as much detail what’s
on the agenda - in complete confidence. Identify time windows during my business hours
which work for you over the next several days after you send your e-mail. It’s better to write
a note about the issues which concern you because it’s easier for me to access that on the road
or in the office because voice mails go off my system in week or so.
I won’t rate or rank firms for you and I won’t tell you to choose firm A over firm B. That would
be arrogant and irresponsible. I’m glad to discuss issues and concerns but it just doesn’t make
sense to offer an ultimate opinion or recommendation. I don’t traffic in rumors about law
firms and their lawyers - like anyone I read the blogs and other media about the profession but
I don’t pass along rumors about firms, lay offs, economics etc. I prefer to stick to what I know
to be true rather than thrice told tales of dubious reliability.
My knowledge and vantage point are, I hope, useful. But I don’t claim clairvoyance or the
status of an oracle. I study law firms daily from many different angles - but your concerns and
long-term objectives are paramount. I can offer you ideas about paths, practice areas, short
and long-term options and reactions on issues such as hours, income, promotion, the balance
of life, etc. In this highly unusual time in the economy, my views and predictions on where the
market will be in the next year could be amazingly insightful. I could be off the mark as well.
I am pleased to offer students from the law schools where I present programs
complimentary copies of the following texts, reports, and slide shows which may be useful during your
2L and 3L year.19
The Chicago Market - Fall 2009 a 120 page text covering the career waterfront and focusing
on firms in Chicago, economics, hiring trends, facts and rumors, and information about
practice areas and the like. The Fall 2009 version will be available September 1st.
The Chicago Market Fall 2009 slides - Ths slide show is the companion to the text - and
is used in various formats for our programs at Michigan and Northwestern in the Spring and
Harvard in the Fall. Available September 1.
Recruiting and Recession Realities - a report discussing the consequences, length, and
impact of the recession on campus and office recruiting and employment decisions that
students will make this fall. Available August 15.
Beyond OCI - Strategies For 2L’s and 3L’s Exploring Options Beyond campus
interviews - available August 15 for schools, students and media.
19
These and other publications of Kimball Professional M anagement are available for annual or perpetual site
license to law schools where we do not present programs and law firms who are not project consulting or retained search clients.
Please call or e-mail for details.

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Success in the Summer - This annual report gives rules for the road for 2L summer
associates. It’s the text which supplements a program presented annually at Michigan which
has also been presented from time to time at 10 of the nation’s top 20 schools.
A Chicago Firm List - in Excel format of all firms in Chicago with >10 lawyers - it can be
provided in Excel or comma delimited format.
Please e-mail Frank@KimballProfessional.com and PDF copies will be sent to you.

Most of all I hope you find the items useful in your effort .
Fall 2009 will be a challenging, competitive hiring season with more unexpected
wrinkles and changes than have been seen in many years. If you lead with your strength and stay active
and involved in the process until the dust settles in November you will be effective. I take comfort from
the fact that Babe Ruth struck out 1,330 times Dan Marino threw 3,331 incomplete passes during
his career Michael Jordan missed 51% of his shots Abraham Lincoln lost all but his last three
elections John McCain spent 5 years as a guest of the North Vietnamese government before
beginning a career in politics Barack Obama lost his first race for political office and Tiger Woods
may have lost one golf tournament some time in the 20th century .
Students pursuing options beyond OCI be relentless, creative, and doggedly persistent.
They must attack on several front simultaneously, and not be obsessed with one opportunity that may
or may not materialize. You are EVP of Marketing of your Career. That’s the good news. The bad news
is that you can see your staff in the mirror. During this effort you will run into dead ends. Networking
will be frustrating. Many calls won’t be returned. Some firms you contact won’t be in the market and
others may reject you. But the race here goes to the person who stays in the race and just keeps trying.
In life, law, sports, politics, and recruiting the race often goes to the person who stays in the race,
overcomes adversity, respects his or her competitors, and is relentlessly dedicated to the goal. Let me
know how it goes.
There is no sin to not having collected bushels of offers (or any offers) at this point in
the season. To give up, be passive, resentful, or flip about disappointment would be a mortal sin from
a career standpoint. Students from leading law schools will do just fine. They may, however, need to
re group and consider a bunch of non-traditional options, strategies and tactics. My recommendations
follow.
Redouble your efforts to improve your grades. Yes, I know that law school exams and
grades are a tough nut to crack. And those who crack the nut don't necessarily have more brain cells
or more likelihood of success. But since one cannot change the fact that employers look at grades one
must always be vigilant about trying to improve academic performance. Take an exam writing course.
I recommend “LEEWS” whose fliers will be found on any campus. To learn more, call (800)765-8246
or visit their website, Www.leews.com Wentworth Miller, LEEWS founder, is a 1977 Yale graduate,
Rhodes Scholar and a former Assistant U.S. Attorney. The program is a worthwhile investment for any
student from any school. I audited the course eight years ago and found it terrific.
Don't mentally drop out of school. Join a journal and actually write and publish an
article. Kick it up a notch and become a senior editor. Join, participate in, and succeed in a moot court
competition. Enroll in clinical programs. Stay engaged in the process - doing things that are valuable

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to your professional development and things which show (a) hard work (b) writing ability ©
intellectual excellence.
Consider a range of potential employers. Each Fall and Winter, the Career Services
Offices of leading law schools receive job postings from scores of employers looking for summer
associates. These firms can be small and mid-size firms who do not go through on campus recruiting
or prefer to hire on a shorter time horizon. Many present sparkling opportunities - professionally and
personally -for talented young lawyers. That you have not heard their names whispered as a magic
mantra among the magnificent in your class means nothing. Many government agencies interview for
regional and national offices during the late Fall, Winter and Spring.
Embrace Creative Persistent Networking - There are more than 4,500 Duke Law School
graduates in private practice who are listed on Martindale Hubbell, including 97 in Los Angeles, 250
in Atlanta, 358 in Washington, D.C., 103 in Chicago, and 184 in the four largest markets in Texas
(Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and Austin). The numbers of Duke under grads in private practice
is even higher - over 6,000. This is an incredibly powerful network - but you have to put it to work.
Correct me if my Bruin and Wolverine instincts are errant - but I suspect that Duke
graduates are as closely knit and supportive a group as one can find anywhere in the nation. Graduates
of excellent law schools are always willing to speak with those with whom they have a common
educational background. Resourceful, creative networking is often the first step on the road to a terrific
opportunity - at any stage in life.
Where and how to start? Use on line resources of the law school and Martindale
Hubbell and you can create a contact matrix of people in various firm sizes and specialty areas with
whom you have something in common. Those files can be downloaded in a format (comma delimited)
that can be imported into your contact manager and word processor for merges.
Other networks you may wish to consider are varied but I've worked with students and
lawyers who have had success with each of the following --- Fellow alums from college or graduate
school days Members of fraternities or sororities Veterans of the same branch of the service in
which you served. High school alums Scouting alums (yes Eagle scouts answer the call) Church
and charitable organizations Family friends Friends and former competitors from other activities
- athletics, debate, College Academic Decathlon - it does not really matter - the key is people with
whom you have a common interest.
Do It Now - Not Tomorrow - Not Next Year - Not Next Week & But Do It In
Bite Sized Pieces Many law students do not take these extra steps. They do take a lot of effort
and they are not as easy as on campus interviewing. But it is your 40 year - $10 million career at stake
and the 500 hours you spend between now and next May remaking your resume and your
employability will change your life forever. It is a tall order and it requires a lot of time -but it is a lot
easier when done in bite size pieces. So don't get up tomorrow and say "Today I will make 100 calls and
send out 200 resumes." Do it a bit at a time. If you can get out 30 letters and make 10calls every
business day for the next month you will have sent out 600 letters and made 200 calls. Do not wait
until next semester. The longer you wait the harder it gets and the Ph.D. in procrastination cannot be
deposited in the bank.

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Don't Become Hostile, Passive, or Withdrawn - Yes it's hard in November when your
classmates are wallowing in call backs and offers and you feel as if you have paved the slow lane of
Mean Street with your nose. It is no fun when you excelled in college and now for the first time find
yourself among the apparently less exalted. And it can be very tiresome to hear your classmates
compare how hard it is to choose among their offers. You should support and love your friends - and
they will actually have more empathy and support for you and your predicament. The worst thing you
can do is to become angry, dejected, withdrawn, passive or hostile.
Don't drift and mope and let the time drag because whatever market exists today will
be far smaller 30, 60, or 90 days from now. Don't engage in blame laying - either drop kicking yourself
through the goal posts of life or blaming others for choices made or decisions made during OCI and
call back. adopt the mentality of a trader - don't fight the tape - and get back to work. Dropping out
the process assures defeat. Keeping your head in the game has a high probability of success. Heaving
lifting to be sure. But a student from a premier school has a solid chance of success even late in the
season. Engage in some self assessment - because understanding why law firms said 'no' is the only
way you can understand why others may say yes.
The most common reasons for 'no' at the callback stage are • the over-estimating how
well your credentials would compete in the market • casting too narrow a net in OCI interviews • not
having strong tie to the city you are targeting • targeting a city which is highly desirable (think
Portland, Denver, Boston, San Diego) which is either a small market or which attracts disproportionate
attention from law students (especially those cities near warm water with cold economies) • not having
a sincere interest in private practice / big firm practice / or large markets.
L. What To Wear And Why
A law student's appearance and attire should be conservative, unmemorable, and utterly lacking in
fashion statements. It is as simple as that. Let me make it simpler: no one ever failed to get hired
because they wore a gray suit, a white shirt, and a red tie - or for women - a black, navy, gray, or other
basic two piece suit. Period. End of discussion. While there will be exceptions to the following rule
it is safe to say that the student in conservative business attire will offend or disturb no one. Across the
country you will see varying degrees of casual attire in offices. The blizzard of casual attire which began
in California in the late 1990's has now reached most major markets. Walk through the hallways of any
law firm and you will see some lawyers still wearing suits and ties others in khakis, grey pants, and
sweaters and others who defy description.
As a headhunter, I see lawyers when they want to make the best impression possible.
Personal opinions on clothing stay in the closet during the search for a new professional home. The
typical prospect wears understated, conservative clothing for interviews, because they are selling
themselves to a conservative, older audience. The legal profession deals in serious, expensive,
complicated problems. Clients do not come to lawyers' offices for recreation or to socialize. While they
may like lawyers personally, and respect them professionally, not one is likely to say "...Gee that was
a great permanent injunction hearing. Let's do it again next month." Clients have expectations about
lawyers. Your offices, stationery, telephone manners, how you relate to adversaries — all combine to
create a professional image our clients notice.

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Your clients sell products or services to their customers. At each stage of the business
relationship —prospecting, servicing, and billing — your clients meet customers in their offices. When
they have something to sell, they prepare to make the sale. Part of that is appearing professional and
businesslike consistent with their customers' expectations. Your clients know that appearance is not
about freedom, the law, or reliving rebellious youth. It is about business and sound judgment. It
should not come as a surprise your client has expectations about you and your colleagues, whether
they pay $100 an hour, $10,000 a month, or $1,000,000 a year. Shabby casual attire is not part of that
picture.
Casual Friday is a fact of life. What began as a sensible experiment during the recession
is a national trend. Clothes once barely acceptable on Saturday are creeping into the entire work week
in some law firms. In New York advertising and public relations firms in the 1920's, executives would
flee for the Hamptons or the Berkshires on Friday afternoons, wearing a blazer and linen pants in
contemplation of a casual weekend. Today, life is different. In the last year five years seen < shirts that
make Lamar Alexander jealous < scuffed shoes designed to traverse bogs < wrinkled Dockers <
sweaters loose enough to deserve their own zip code. < distressed bomber jackets and < denim that
belongs on 90210 where 27 year-olds play high schoolers. The problem is not confined to associates.
The worst offender may be a senior partner who looks like he fell out of a wheel barrow at the Home
Depot. Lose the orange apron Fred - it's the first step of recovery. Casual attire is controversial because
it involves self-image, habit, taste, and psychological issues that bedevil lawyers accustomed to
organized problem solving. Poorly-delivered advice about clothing can be offensive, illegal, distasteful,
or discouraging. Some see issues of politics, law, and freedom in what is a business decision.
When I've spoken to lawyers about casual Friday nine explanations emerge for sloppy
casual dress —
1. I worked hard this week. Marking up merger documents is not defending

Chosin Reservoir. You are paid more than 95 percent of the population. There are folks working far
harder for far less who present a more professional image to the market five days a week. Did I forget
that hard work is its own reward?
2. I am expressing my individuality. Your office is not an Athenian amphitheater

where democracy is debated. It is a business. If you had your own business, you might subordinate
some of your individuality to get customers, capital, or sales. You are in a business to serve clients.
Save self expression for your own time.
3. They dress like this at Microsoft. Yes, they do. But you are not in Seattle, you
don't design and sell software, and you aren't worth $11 billion. There is more room for casual dress
and behavior in that industry. If you want to move to Seattle or Portland, I'll share a latte or a
memorable Willamette Valley Pinot Noir with you as you search for professional employment in the
toughest markets in the nation. Why is it that I suspect you will be wearing that grey flannel suit again
when you interview in Seattle?
4. This is more comfortable - Have your suits let out. Buy shoes that fit. Put less
starch in your boxers. Comfort is not inversely proportional to taste. You may not love, like or resemble
Ross Perot. But one reason EDS did so well from the get go is that its sales people looked the part when
they competed against IBM and the other industry Goliaths.

72
5. Clients hire me for my brains, not what I wear. Wrong. Clients measure a
lawyer by many standards, not the least of which is professional and personal image. Your brain will
do the deal but your personal skills (including appearance) have a lot to do with client comfort,
satisfaction, and their confidence that you will capably represent their interests. When you walk into
a bank to borrow money or an accounting firm that manages your finances, your impression of them
is formed by many things, including how they are attired. Every day you draw conclusions about
people based, in part, on how they appear. So too do your clients. For those of you without clients,
remember that the clients hired the firm and you are lucky enough to be there. I suspect that when you
land your first client some of your views about these subjects will change. Call me in five years and let
me know.
6. I think conservative casual clothes are uncool. That's funny. You thought they
were appropriate when you broke out the blue pin stripes, cap toe oxfords, and paisley tie for your
campus interview. Then you were selling yourself to us. Ditch the Dockers. You and O.J. can go
shopping again soon. Remember they look great with Bruno Magli loafers.
7. You're out of touch - The World Has Changed - No. You're out of touch. The
world where our clients sign the checks that make your job possible has not changed. Lawyers should
change with our clients. They are not opinion leaders on fashion or the oracles of forward-thinking
design.
8. I won't be seeing any clients today. I will resist the temptation to say "If you
dress like that you won't see any clients again for the rest of your natural life." Clients and colleagues
will see you today. The collective image of the firm is created by each individual. Whether you happen
to cross paths with a leading client in the conference center who is offended by your less than flawless
chinos is not the point. The point is that when you are here, you are a part of this family. This family
sells an important and serious product.
9. My Wife / Significant Other / Friend Picked This Out - I won't touch this one
with a ten foot pole. Then again.... Somehow I doubt it. The companions to this comment include < I
don't have time to shop < geez I'm just here to work leave me alone < I'm just a sloppy guy < Pay me
more and I will think about it. The guilt of your co-conspirator is not a valid defense.
What is the individual professional to do? Square your wardrobe with the expectations
of your clients and invest in your future. What you wear to the Ace Hardware, the Last Chance Tortilla
Factory, Double Latte Heaven, or the Empire Diner is not what you wear to Harris & Baldwin on
Friday. It is as simple as that. Ask your significant other, spouse, or that nattily attired fellow sitting
in the corner office who got there because he does things right. You asked them how to write a brief,
how to argue a motion and land a client. Why not ask them about this issue?
So a word to you fellows heading downtown. Stop dressing like schlubs. You know what
I mean and you know who you are. Cut it out. As you get dressed Friday, ask yourself whether the CEO
of the firm's most substantial client < would approve of - not tolerate - the way you dress and < would
greet his leading customer at his office this way on Friday? If the answer is yes to both questions, go
downtown. If not, change and meet me at that bar in Seattle. Remember your blue suit. Tomorrow you
have your first interview. Afterwards we will toast the CEO of your new firm's largest client. Without

73
the check she sends every thirty days, you may observe Casual Friday at home. As long as Copper River
salmon is in season, I'll be on the next flight out to discuss your sartorial needs.
The problem with casual dress is, by and large, not with our women colleagues. For reasons
known to the denizens of Madison and Fifth Avenues, they invest more time, effort, and money in
selecting, purchasing, and wearing casual clothing. They always have and always will. As a native
Californian, who practiced in New York and now lives in Chicago, I admit no biases. As a reminder
of my sartorial roots, I have a picture in my office taken with President Ford in 1976. He is wearing
a classic grey suit. I'm wearing a light blue pinstriped suit and a tie with a synthetic sheen. The
seventies were great. Just writing that makes me want to get out a stack of Gordon Lightfoot, B.T.O.,
and Minnie Riperton LP's and listen to some real music. Get down! (But no 'gatoring, please).
M. Can We, Like, Totally Banish “Like”?
I hereby declare Fall Interviewing and Professional Life to be a "like-free" zone. College and
professional students of the Sixties and Seventies fell into the unfortunate habit of using their version
of slang during interviewing. It did not sit well with employers then and "like" does not now. When
your language resembles that of a valley-person-mall-rat it plays into every bad stereotype your elders
can imagine. I recognize it is almost a subconscious reflex as natural as saying ‘umm’ but you should
make every effort to stamp out this forest fire before it singes your career.
The oral crutches of my youth included "cool," "far out," "right on," "heavy," "dude,"
"man," (which could be used as a noun, verb, fast food order, gerund, salutation or state of mind -
often interchangeably in the same sentence), "get down," and "badd." (misspelling intended). Today's
slang crutch is "like." It is used to fill space, introduce a thought, divide a sentence, catch a breath, or
any number of ways that dismay lawyers, clients, judges, and other elders in the September of their
years. I was reminded of this in a telephone conversation was a very solid student from a top 10
school. During our 30 minute conversation he mis-used the word “like” 121 times. At the end of our
conversation I mentioned this to him and he acknowledged that this habit had been drawn to his
attention by his parents. Speak the language of the buyer who you hope decides to buy your brain cells
for wholesale and sell them to the general public at retail. You can undercut twenty years of education
with 30 seconds of sloppy speech. As Archie Bunker used to say in All in the Family “stifle yourself.”
So, 'here's the deal,' as we used to say. I'll throw out all of my Saturday Night Fever,
Village People, Bachman Turner Overdrive, and Minnie Ripperton LP's if students and young lawyers
will banish like to the ash heap of junk jargon. Then again, maybe we should all just put on a stack of
Bee Gee, Barry Manilow, and Barbra Streisand LP's and think about the great days of 1968, when men
were men and giants walked the earth? Perhaps my Carole King LP when the earth moved under our
feet? How about a scratched 45 of the Village People's YMCA.20 Nope, I think I'll just put on a suit, get
20
I had the privilege of attending the night club debut of the Village People in 1978 when they were the main
act at a promo for a new RJR cigarette “Real.” It was held at the then legendary Club Odyssey in Brooklyn, where Travolta’s
(continued...)

74
a hair cut, and send some IM’s. Can You Dig It? Because, dude, I'm like, so tired of, like, trying to
stamp out this disease.
M. Telephone Manners 101
A substantial number of students - including top students at leading schools - fall into one or more of
the following breaches of basic telephone etiquette. You may decide yourself how to converse with
friends but all of the following irritate employers more than you can possibly imagine -
Do not type on your computer while speaking on the telephone - Many students
continue to type away while speaking to potential employers. That's more than rude, it is down right
stupid. It suggests inattention, immaturity, and disrespect. A lawyer has taken time to speak with you
about her firm and your career. You owe it to them to suspend typing, surfing, or whatever it is you
find so enchanting.
Don’t use the speaker phone - amazingly enough some students will use a speaker when
calling employers. Someone recently called me on their cell phone speaker phone. Strange, but true.
She wins the mondo bizarro award for the New Millennium.
Disable call waiting - You can check your messages later. Turn off call waiting during
the interview season. The darn clicking sound (along with you checking to see who else is on the line)
is a supremely self-absorbed and unnecessary act.
Use a land line - not a portable or a cell phone - especially when speaking with a
potential employer. Even the most up to date 2.4 GHz portable sounds like you know what to those
of us on the other end of the line. When you wander around your apartment, open packages, change
channels on the t.v., fix lunch, wash the dishes, or visit the 'loo, I can hear every step you take (and I've
heard all of that in the past three years).
Cell phones are worse. Last year I heard a student take a tour of every room in her
apartment - yes, I mean every room - during 30 minute call. Sit down, sit still, get away from the
keyboard and give the caller your undivided attention on a land line. This is what your supervising
partners will insist upon when you work with them and this is the way you must deal with clients. Save
the multi-tasking for later.
When you leave a messages - make it easy to return the call. The lives of students and
hiring attorneys do not match well. That fact of life won't change. When you call a law firm and cannot
reach the attorney with whom you wish to speak, let them know a couple of ranges of time (during the
business day), when they can reach you (even if that means forwarding your home calls to your cell
phone). It will make you seem respectful and responsive. Change the message on your voice mail daily
if you don't have call forwarding.
20
(...continued)
Saturday Night Fever was filmed. The dance floor was tiny, the lighting poor, but the scene was memorable.

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Some readers will think this is “so 20th century” and “out of touch.” Most of your clients
will be 40-55. And a large percentage of your most sophisticated clients are more electronically up to
date than you may suspect. Many are at the very cutting edge of technology - but they want the 1:1
direct high quality professionalism that is the hallmark of the nation’s best law firms. And for clients
who don’t use e-mail, can’t type, and somehow manage to run highly profitable business - they are
even more worthy of your undivided attention. Would you boot Thomas Jefferson out of a chat room
because he didn’t know what IM meant?. Would his name be Father_of_the_Nation or Monticello76?
Perhaps he’d move to the Village and start a band called “Louisiana Purchase.” or team with Eminem
as TJ3.I have a hunch Jefferson would ‘get’ technology quickly.
N. Event Etiquette
This Fall you will be invited to attend pre interview receptions, post OCI dinners, and various meals
and receptions during and after call back interviews. How you handle yourself during these events can
have an impact on whether you receive an offer and your reputation in the firm. Follow these sensible
rules and you'll never get yourself in trouble -
Remember - it is an interview. No matter how relaxed an informal the occasion, the lawyers
who attend the event are still assessing you. No, they are not looking for whether you can
identify a fish fork or differentiate grades of sushi. They are trying to assess your people skills
and your public persona. A student who is way over the top in terms of party-boy demeanor
can get into just as much trouble as the person who is so anxious they can't function in a group.
Respond to an invitation and stick with your response. An alarming number of students have
sloppy RSVP habits. These are professional adult events - not drop in parties or drive by
shootings. If you are invited respond. If you say yes, show up.
Follow the same approach to attire recommended for interviews. Dress appropriately,
tastefully and conservatively. Never aim low - we're not riding Shetland ponies here.
Easy on the booze- and easy on the food. Nursing a drink or a glass of wine or two won't bother
anyone. But drinking a bit too much can make you memorable in a hurry.
Arrive on time - not an hour late. Again, students' practices on this are increasingly deplorable.
Don't bring uninvited guests - your room-mate, soul mate, or just the fellow you met who is
going to another reception later. If the law firm wants to invite guests they will let you know.
Don't work the room like a Washington lobbyist. Introduce yourself to the lawyers who attend,
make some small talk, engage in polite conversation. This is not a time to dominate, intimidate,
overwhelm your fellow students or be the brightest bulb in the room. It is a time to introduce
yourself and behave in a professional fashion.
Obviously you will steer clear of topics not appropriate for cocktail parties including religion,
politics, economics, and fungal infections. Obama v. McCain, Rush Limbaugh v. Rahm
Emmanuel, etc. Save it for next year.

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This is not the time for detailed pin point Q&A about the firm, its practices and policies. Save
it for the interview.
Nor is this the time for detailed selling of your strengths and experience. It is a semi social
occasion where law firms will continue the sale / assessment minuet.
N. E-Mail Etiquette
Be careful, scrupulous, and smart when you use e-mail. Everything you write takes on a life of its own.
If you don't want it read by the senior partner of your future employer, don't write it down. Welcome
to the professional world where you must proceed with caution - everywhere you go you leave
electronic tracks. So please consider the following. Use complete sentences and skip all the informal
chatter.21 You are writing an employer who studies every word that you write. And what you write may
be discoverable (think - Enron).
Place a footer at the end of all e-mails giving contact information including your name,
school, e-mail address, snail mail address, and cell phone.
In the work place never conduct a war of attrition by e-mail. Decades ago, before
computers but after rural electrification, many associates used to engage in simple oral gossip or the
infamous CYA memorandum to file to backstab others or to protect their posterior. The war
continues but the weapons have changed. Today an astonishing number of young professional engage
in psychologically fascinating passive-aggressive warfare by e-mails. They will snip and send parts of
messages, assemble a cabal behind a senior lawyer’s back or engage in other office-to-office
conspiratorial activity rather than doing their work.
For reasons I will never understand many lawyers seem to enjoy using e-mail more than
they enjoy face to face contact. They will bombard senior associates and partners with electronic
comments or queries rather than just walking down the hallway and talking to someone. Try the old
fashioned approach. It works. And it does not leave a paper trail. Earlier this year I met with a student
who complained that a partner would not answer his e-mails. I asked him to tell me the whole story
of his difficult experience.
I’ll skip the details but the student in question hectored the partner with e-mail after
e-mail, day after day on an assignment. The partner’s office was four doors down the hallway. The
student complained “the partner would not answer my e-mails.” I said “yes he did.” The student
persisted. I suggested to the student that perhaps the lack of an answer was the answer itself. The
partner, I suspect wanted the student to stand on his legs, walk down the hallway and speak face to
face. The lesson: learn the habits and preferences of your seniors and your clients. Respect and emulate
them. And then pray that the world is as tolerant of your eccentricities.
21
Remarkably, I often receive slang laden e-mails from students. A recent e-mail from an A minus student at
a top 10 school used the word “like” incorrectly five times in four paragraphs. Get out the velcro and get a grip. This student
has work to do. Like, now, dude. I gather that the words “like” and “dude,” while not interchangeable may be used as verbs,
nouns, pronouns, greetings, fillers, and as a summary of a state of mind. Far out.

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O. Social Networking Sites and Your Internet Persona
Scrub all of your social networking sites of anything that could be troubling to an
employer - including those video clips and photos which show you three sheets to the wind. You only
have one chance to make a good first impression and bizarre items that show your wild side on social
networking sites such as Facebook and MySpace can jeopardize your future. Yes I know you can limit
who is on your list of “friends” but in an abundance of caution I recommend scrubbing the contents
of all of your social networking sites. On the positive side social networking sites can assist you in
identifying people with whom you have something in common who can be useful for establishing and
growing your professional network. I’m a big fan of www.LinkedIn.com - which is a networking site
for professionals and those in the business community. You can search by school, professional firm
and many other features. The enhanced version of LinkedIn costs $20 a month, but I think it is a very
worthwhile investment.
Anything about you that is on the Internet is fair game for employers. And yes firms
will take a look at your on line presence as part of their assessment before extending an offer. Law
firms also do background checks and credit checks on potential associates and partners. For better
or worse, anything about you in the electronic village is likely to be seen and reviewed.
P. For Students Still Comparing Firms and Cities
If you are still juggling firms and cities, I hereby order you to file a motion to simplify. Take a
long hard look at the geography issue and why you are drawn / torn about cities. Is it a matter
of curiosity? Romance? Family tie (fleeing family ties)? Trying to juggle both city and firm
comparisons will drive you wild. I strongly recommend that you select the city first and then
decide on a law firm.
Collect the information you need from reliable sources, ignore the flood of third hand hearsay,
and make a decision. Resist the temptation to embrace the Vault report (an astonishingly
superficial compilation of suspect information collected by non-lawyers and others who have
never spent a day, must less 5-25 years practicing in firms and supported by law firm
advertisers some of who tend to do very well in Vault rankings).
The low point in the season has to be a bizarre public opinion sampling taken by an apparent
University of Illinois 2L who sought a Kirkland v. Jenner 'vote' from all participants on a
Greedy Associates discussion board. The question was sincere, but someone who makes a
decision or who needs to validate their decision is truly troubling. For more detail on this
subject review the report I sent to you last month on end of the season advice.
Don't play your hand too aggressively. Demanding special consideration, appearing to play one
firm off against another, requesting bizarre summer splits, asking for two weeks off 3 days at
a time to attend weddings next summer, requesting something different from the firm's
practice on dividing practice area assignments, etc. can do you a world of hurt. A law firm has
a business to run - practicing law and serving clients. You will become one part of that service
entity and over time will earn the right receive special treatment from time to time. But many
students get themselves into too trouble by trying to job-manage-noodle-control the entry-level
employment process. Enough said.

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The student who appears to be trying to 'negotiate everything' or tries to make himself come
across as the exception to all rules can wind up being a punch line.
Particularly in a slow economy where employers are still trying to recover from the salary
explosion of 2000 and the recession of 2000-2003, they are not likely to embrace special
requests. You are far better off reporting as ordered, doing great work and lots of it, and letting
the market reward you over the course of your career. Invest conservatively for the long term
- it is your career and reputation that is at stake.
III. Master The Firm's Side

of the Interview Desk
What Do Employers Want? Why You Must Care — This section turns the interview
table 180 degrees. It examines how an employer interviews a law students. It walks you through the
process of preparation assessment sales and follow up. Film buffs may remember The Paper
Chase - the 1974 film about a student's first year at Harvard Law School. The student, Mr. Hart, played
by Timothy Bottoms struggled with the legendary Professor Kingsfield (played by John Houseman)
while simultaneously romancing his daughter (played by Lindsay Wagner - later of Bionic Woman
fame). If you haven't seen the movie you should do so. Aside from the predictable progress from
embarrassment to struggle to triumph — the most memorable moments of the movie involve Hart's
attempt to triumphing the classroom by studying Kingsfield's ancient class notes - to get inside
Kingsfield's head.
At one moment - Hart says that he “knows what Kingsfield thinks before he thinks it,
and knows what he will say before he says it.” I want you to experience that Kingsfield moment this
Fall. If you can anticipate where the employer is headed, understand what they want, work seamlessly
through the interview, and learn what you need to learn you can declare victory. The employer won't
even realize what you have done. You will have mastered the process. The following is a modified
version of my training manual for law firm office interviewers22. Read it once through lightly. Then
read it in detail as you compare your side of the interview table with the view from the employer's side.
It will allow you to anticipate where the interviewer is heading, why he is asking the questions that are
posed, and, most importantly, the underlying concerns of the law firm.
22
On a memorable Monday afternoon in November 1974, Section 2 of the Class of 1977 at Michigan settled
into their seats for another memorable hour with the legendary Professor Beverley Pooley. In his time outside Hutchins Hall
he acted in local and regional theater and had come to know John Houseman. Lo' and behold, who walks to the podium that day
but John Houseman attired as he was in the film. W ithout introduction he re-enacted several scenes from the film. He called
on no one - but at that point in the first year all of us were sufficiently rattled that we felt that anything was possible. He used
Professor Pooley as a foil for one particularly funny scene and brought the house down. Coming face to face with Kingsfield
writ large was one of the highlights of law school. Somehow after that the once equally intimidating Professor Pooleys seemed
much more human. W hat does this have to do with your call back interviews? Absolutely nothing. I just thought you'd enjoy
the story.

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A. Prepare
1. Know The School and the Student
Your campus interviewer invited students for office interviews who meet the firm’s
standards on grades and performance during law school. Please understand that law school grading
systems, journal admission requirements, and other honors change continuously. The standards you
were familiar with as a student have probably changed a great deal. Law school grading systems have
changed and many schools have inflated their overall GPA. However, this does not mean that the
quality of the student body has changed. To the contrary - the overall quality of the students at the
nation’s leading schools is far higher today than it was 10-20-30 years ago.
This is because of the admission of large numbers of highly qualified and competitive
women and minority students the growth in population (the total number of college graduates per
year is 250% higher today than it was in 1970). Set against the increase in quality of the talent pool is
a dramatic and relentless increase in the hiring by competing firms. The 100 largest firms in the nation
hire 300% more lawyers than they did 25 years ago. The bottom line - the best law firms must reach
farther and deeper into the class at more law schools - and in doing so they do not stoop to conquer.
The talent pool is better.
Review the resume and campus interviewers notes to make certain that you understand
the following about the student. There is nothing more irritating to students than to explain repeatedly
information which has been collected on campus or during earlier interviews during the day. I know
that may strike you as unreasonable, but it is one of the most frequent complaints of students at
leading schools.
Law school grades and approximate or precise class rank. This is a rapidly changing mess -
with law schools adjusting curves, changing systems, and changing policies on disclosing
ranking. Make sure you and your hiring partner are on the same page about grading standards
and their implications.
Law school activities / journals / honors. At all schools, every year brings a new journal, a
changing roster of clinical programs, or new honors that may be conferred.
College / Graduate grades/honors/activities — Some students are delightfully vague and

ambiguous about their undergraduate performance. While it’s not the most important fact in
the world, I recommend learning how well someone did in college. There are scores of
undergraduate honorary societies - some meaningful others full of more fluff than a
marshmallow factory.
Job offers from previous summers - For students who were summer associates in the past
summer ask whether they have received an offer, what type of offer was conferred (to return
or permanent), what percentage of students received offers in their class, and where
appropriate the name of a partner at the firm with whom you could speak about their work.
This is more important in 2004 than in past summers because the offer picture around the
country is frankly a mess.

80
Ties to Chicago - For some students this may be obvious. For others it is worth a detailed
inquiry of their connection to Chicago, and their familiarity with the city. Someone from the
East or West coast with no ties to the Midwest is a very risky prospect. Watch the body
language here - some students have a ‘speech’ that is just not credible.
Practice Area Interests - This is not a binding inquisition, just an effort to find out the student’s
interests. It can be useful for call back interviews to know the match between a student’s
interests and the firm’s practice. And it can be an exclusionary tool - because students will
often express a strong interest in an area where the firm has no practice. Be patient - students
know little about law firms and their interests evolve rapidly - but even at this stage it is useful
to match interests with needs.
Core Evaluative Experience - On any resume, the interviewer should focus on experiences that
permit the interviewer to evaluate the depth of the student. Usually the student will include
bullet points under prior work or academic experience that are a jumping off point for
evaluating their strengths. Don’t limit yourself to things within the legal profession. You can
tell a lot about work ethic, ambition, people skills, hard work, etc., from a detailed discussion
of a life experience before law school.
2. Control The Interview
The most effective interviews are ones where the student does 75% or more of the talking. The natural
human temptation is to dominate the setting and tell our best war stories and then to conclude that
the student will be a perfect fit. You will learn far more and provide a far better framework for the
firm’s decision if you gather as much information as possible about the student. This can be done
through detailed discussions of their interests and background and the natural give-and-take that
occurs when discussing the features and benefits of the firm.
For litigators, the exercise bears some resemblance to examining a witness. You learn more by
asking careful questions rather than using long-winded or leading questions. For non-
litigators, consider meetings where you speak with clients about a new transaction, line of
business, marketing strategy, etc. You learn more by asking, listening, following up and
focusing on the person in front of you. The conversation should be a natural dialogue - but one
that is directed and controlled by the interviewer.
Resist the temptation to relax and just fire anecdotes and experiences back and forth. When
you meet a sparkling student the temptation may be to turn them into your best friend in 90
seconds and then spend 28 minutes selling, trading jokes, telling them how swell they are. Save
the ‘whole nine yards” of the sales pitch until later.23 . A lack of discipline can be catastrophic.
Many office interviewers spend too much time talking about themselves, telling students about
the ‘old days’ (when Giants Walked the Earth), selling their firm with long speeches about how
you handled the reverse triangular merger through which a leading Venezuelan client acquired
23
The phrase was coined during W orld W ar II, when the ammo belts for .50 caliber guns on P-51 Mustangs were
nine yards long. Perhaps giving the student the whole ‘bouquet of flowers’ is a better idea. Daffodils are nice.

81
the Bolivian Navy — and generally discarding any notion of the evaluating the student. While
you may be war-weary during the Fall, please understand that the student is also. The internal
voice in the head of the student and the interviewer shows distraction and a lack of focus on
both sides of the table. Consider the following
WHAT STUDENTS WORRY ABOUT WHAT INTERVIEWERS THINK ABOUT
Exams, moot court, classes, and other

distractions at law school. ø The client emergency that threatens to boil over in
the next thirty minutes.
I hope they don’t ask me that one question

Next week’s closing / deposition / business
I dread (e.g., grades, ties to Chicago, what
development presentation. A difficult call with a
I know about the law review article I’ve just
started to write, or a substantive legal
ø client to deliver bad news — a motion has been
lost, or a rough issue in a deal.
question).
My next interview this afternoon (I hope Billing, collection, associate reviews, and other
lunch doesn’t run late before I have to get
across town to Harris & Baldwin)
ø administrative distractions that have to be taken
care of in the next week.
Generally how exhausted they are from the

I’m talking to a tax lawyer - I have no idea
burdens of practice · Why I have to see another law
what to say or ask and she’ll probably
interrogate me about some Code section I ø student this Fall when I know that 80% of them
won’t come here and 50% of those who do will
don’t understand.
resign in 2 or 3 years.
I can’t remember my 10 usual questions ---

what am I going to ask next? I’ve forgotten Family issues, kid scheduling issues, can I get out
the interviewer’s name..! This interviewer
is a senior partner - what the heck can I ask
ø of here by 5 p.m. for a soccer game or out of the
office on the weekend for the first time in ages.
them?
This guy looks distracted - is it me? What (For associates) A tense meeting with a demanding
did I do wrong? I know I’m not good partner. (For partners) Working with associates
enough to be here, I’m the first lawyer in
my family. I don’t know what a lawyer
ø who don’t seem as gifted as we were back when
Giants Walked the Earth.
does.
3. Allocate Time
Disciplined time management is the cornerstone of effective office interviewing. A office interview
has six discrete parts. Rather the concept is to manage your time, to make certain you do not fall
behind, to leave time to take notes and transition to the next interview and most importantly to
maintain the focus on evaluation.

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Part I - Introduction 1-2
Greet the student, settle in, explain what will be covered, establish common ground, and get the
student relaxed and comfortable. The ice-breaker is a very important part of the interview.
Understand that the student may be nervous, exhausted, excited, or just bone-tired. Nevertheless
they have focused on you and the firm. Introduce yourself by your first name and ask the student
what they‘d like to be called (Elizabeth may be Elizabeth, Liz, Beth, or Betsy. A firm that prides itself
on an ‘open door’ policy or calling all lawyers on a first name basis goes a long way towards
establishing informality with a cordial, personal greeting.
PART II - EVALUATE 5-10
Question the student about her background, interests, experience, career options, work experience,
grades, journals, etc. See pages
PART III - TRANSITION FROM EVALUATION TO SELL/RESPOND 1
Once you finish the evaluative stage, offer to turn the table over to the student. Do not just put your
hands behind your weary head and saying “What can I tell you about the firm?” It is as tiresome as
when a student says “tell me about your atmosphere” (I was tempted to respond 78% nitrogen and
then let them come up with something better.) The point is to stress that it is the student’s turn to
ask questions.
PART IV - ANSWER STUDENTS ’ QUESTIONS & SELL 15-18
This does not mean uncontrolled selling. Rather, listen to students’ questions and try to understand
their unstated concerns. See pages 12-22
PART V - CLOSE THE INTERVIEW -TAKE TO NEXT INTERVIEW 3-5
At the 25 minute point begin wrapping up so you can take the student to their next interview and
arrive on time. Leave yourself ample time to get to the next interviewer on time
PART VI - FINISH THE EVALUATION

As soon as you return to your office, complete the evaluation form and send it tot the recruiting
coordinator. One of the biggest frustrations in interviewing is chasing down the evaluation forms
from attorneys. If you write your comments down immediately it should take only 2-3 minutes and
your comments will be sharper and far more useful to the firm. If you wait a week and just say “no
offer” or “offer, but I don’t feel strongly about it” the interview has been a waste of time. Your
comments are terribly important and the quality is enhanced if you write and send them
immediately. Specific comments and ‘impressions’ are equally valuable.
4. Careful, Comprehensive Notes

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Take notes occasionally and unobtrusively. Resist the temptation to scribble away and with enthusiasm
when the student says something exceptional or controversial. If you wait until two days later, you are
likely to forget some important information, important nuances, and not be able to make the same
comparisons as you can if you force yourself to complete your evaluation form.
Anything you write on the evaluation will be seen by others -- be tactful and write with
care. Stray notes have a way of creeping onto resume as marginalia during a long day. Thus, notes
about physical appearance, or any adjective you’d rather not defend in a courtroom must never be
written down. Even if what is written is just off-the-cuff tastelessness you do not want to have to
defend it in any setting. I recall an interviewer describing a student as “Nathan Detroit.” I still laugh
when I see Guys N’ Dolls — and I have no doubt that the nattily-attired student (retro 3 piece black suit
and a tie Dean Martin would have loved) did not go onto a singing and movie career similar to that of
Francis Albert Sinatra. But it was not a term that should have been written down.24
The issue is not simply whether the comment is actionable — it is whether you put the
firm at risk of being embarrassed or having the quality of its hiring compromised. Whether we like it
or not the latter is defined by students’ opinions of us. All of us know that in a law firm our success
is governed - in part - by the perceptions of others. Sometimes those perceptions can be superficial
or unfair. Nevertheless they have an impact. So too in the world of office interviews recruiting -
students’ perceptions are shaped (often permanently) by their perceptions.
The same goes doubly for e-mails or instant messages. There is something about the
informality and immediacy of these technologies that seems to inspire written communication which
is less than careful. Anything you write in an e-mail about a student is fair ground for inspection and
discovery. Disgruntled summer associates can exercise their right to see their entire employment file --
including the campus and office file, and any e-mails or voice mails. (Remember those ‘funny’ voice
mails you have saved - or the ones you deleted that somehow have a life of their on a file server
somewhere under Iron Mountain, Michigan?) A vast majority of students do not ask to exercise this
right or litigate against former employers. But remember that any firm can be caught up in a hornet’s
nest of discovery. For example, in 1994, the New York Human Rights Commission issued a dragnet
subpoena to dozens of law firms and headhunters relating to hiring practices requiring the production
of all office interview notes and files.
B. Evaluate
Before you sell, you must evaluate. The campus interviewer has reviewed the base line credentials of
the student and made a preliminary assessment that the student should be brought back for further
interviews. However, the campus interview is usually only a 20 minute meet and greet and it is
impossible to learn everything the firm needs to know. So, the office interview is a continuation of the
process. The balance will shift so that most of the time is spent on understanding the student and their
needs and laying the foundation to persuade them to join the firm. The first step is to complete the
evaluation process. During the first 5-8 minutes of the office interview gather the information you need
24
Twenty years ago, I recall a lender liability case involving a failed bank where a file on a $10,000 cash loan
to a customer with questionable associates read “purpose: to avoid having legs broken.” The statement was accurate but probably
not the wisest way to document a file. The line for proceeds said “paper bag - back door.” But that’s a story for another day.

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to be absolutely certain that the student is worthy of an offer to join the firm. Only then do you switch
gears to the process of persuading, listening, and selling.25
1. Traits of Successful Lawyers —
I do not presume this to be a complete inventory of all factors which make an outstanding lawyer. All
of us have a different idea of what makes a lawyer special. And in any premier law firm, you will find
a fantastic variety of skill sets. Some lawyers are born business getters. Others will be gifted managers.
Some will become a leading expert in a specialized field. For every lawyer who is terrific in court, there
will be another who is a gifted negotiator. There are all manners of style and substance among
successful partners. The office interviewer is not seeing whether one size fits all and does not carry a
template. Rather the office interviewer looks for the entire range of qualities.
Have You Prejudged the Student? — Resist at all costs the decision to embrace or
incinerate someone within the first two to three minutes. If you give someone a thumbs up based on
GPA + appearance you may never discover they’re a jerk, or that their work experience is tissue thin.
Similarly, the student who is a nervous and has good but not great grades may be the hidden star you
inadvertently overlook just because they’re having an ‘off’ day.
Is the Student Ambitious, Determined, and A Hard Worker? The student’s work
experience during college and law school can show a tremendous amount about their ability and
interest in working long hours. If the student has high grades, but does nothing outside class, you may
have bought yourself a “coaster,” who is mentally gifted but not ambitious. If you do not think this
person will work till dawn for your favorite client at the drop of a hat, do not recommend a call back.
But if you sense that they work too hard like a tireless hamster in a treadmill, remember that you will
have to collect the time they bill. Speaking with students about their toughest project, most demanding
assignment, or most difficult time in law school is a terrific way to winnow out those who tolerate hard
work from those who enjoy it.
Is the Student Smart Enough? — The campus interviewer and your hiring partners have
determined that the student’s academic performance meets the standards of the firm. Don’t re litigate
that issue by re-visiting the issue with the student. However, it is perfectly appropriate to reach beyond
the GPA to make an assessment of the student’s intellect. After 27 years watching the mating dance
of employers and students, I’ve reached the following conclusions (1) 1L grades are an imperfect tool -
but the best available - in terms of sorting out raw brain power (2) the top tier of the class at any law
school will have lawyers who can thrive in a major national law firm (3) the top two thirds of the class
at many top 20 law schools will have lawyers who can be quite successful (4) there is no inherent
relationship between GPA and writing ability, willingness to work hard, ability to develop business,
or skill in the court-room (5) a student without strong academic credentials is unlikely to succeed
unless they have excellent communication skills, a remarkable work ethic, and the ability to develop
or maintain client relationships. The quality of law students is higher today than 20-25 years ago
because (1) the nation produces 2.5 times more college graduates (2) law school enrollment at top
25
W hat do students think about an evaluative interviewing? If it is done correctly, it can be a very effective
selling technique. Instead of preaching about the virtues of your firm. You spend time listening to the student describe their
strengths and experiences. This is their territory and a careful examination needn’t be confrontational, hostile, intrusive, or even
noticeable. It gives a student the chance to shine, to talk about their accomplishments, to introduce facts and experiences which
can overcome concerns you may have about grades, work experience, and other issues

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schools is unchanged (3) law schools now admit a far higher percentage of tremendously talented
women and minority students who were simply not on the radar screen in earlier years.
Is the Student An Achiever or Just a Joiner? — Many resumes are full of organizations
students join, or journals where they are ‘staff members.’ Joiners are not always ‘doers.’ Look for
indications of the student actually accomplishing something --- winning a round in a moot court
competition, publishing an article, serving on an editorial board, running a student organization,
raising money, serving on a demanding committee of the law school. “Doers” are generally more
focused, ambitious, efficient and likely to succeed. One of my favorite former hiring partners tells me
that she looks for “a track record of hard work and achievement” and “abhors $125,000 a year clock
punchers.” Enough said.
Are You Using Brainpower To Excuse Lousy Personal Skills? — Many lawyers with
great grades from strong schools make terrific new associates but founder once they have to relate to
clients, manage people, and get along with adversaries and colleagues. You cannot exorcize the demon
by waving their transcript at a billing partner. Evaluative interviewing can provide a detailed look at
personal qualities. Do not assume that a top GPA necessarily equates with excellence in practice (even
though you are gifted in both). Never fall into the trap of saying “well this student wouldn’t work in
my group, but I think we should invite him in anyway.”
Is the Student Serious About The Firm? — Students use a fair amount of strategy in
selecting firms for on office interviews. The office interviewer has to determine whether the student
is sincere and enthusiastic about the firm or whether they are just playing the odds or trying to collect
‘safety offers.” Students at the top of the class at leading and regional schools will be awash in offers.
If you catch a whiff of insincerity - it is often better to take a pass. Yes, this means that you will say “no”
to some students with A averages at Harvard, Northwestern, and Michigan. But if your gut tells you
that the student is unlikely to accept an offer , you are better off not investing the firm’s time and
money in a pointless exercise.
Older partners (I’m 56) harken back to the offer/acceptance dynamics of the 1960's and
1970's when firms were fewer in number and the balance tipped more toward employers. While it
seems counter intuitive to take a pass on a student with truly exceptional credentials, sometimes that
may be the wisest thing to do. Sometimes you will encounter a student who has seen the bright lights
of a particular competitor or of another city. Your gut may tell you that the student has tagged you as
a “practice firm” or a “safety firm.” The same strategy students use in applying to school is used in
interviewing. If you sense this, take a pass. There is no upside in over investing time in a student who
is extremely unlikely to accept an offer. This requires some self critical analysis - but investing the law
firm’s time and cash in a pointless effort is senseless.
Does the Student Have a Pulse? — Too many students are attracted to the profession
for the wrong reasons. Some go to law school because they could not be admitted to medical school.
Some view it as a stepping stone to another career. Others do not really know what they want to do
with their lives, so they go to law school because it seems close to that terrific Constitutional Law
course they took while studying Political Science. Others are attracted to areas of the law that cannot
be found in private practice. That someone has done well in law school means nothing if they do not
have the ‘fire in the belly’ or just zest for living and accomplishment. Someone who is already road
weary and lacking in enthusiasm will be a disaster in practice.

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Does The Student Have Credible Ties to Our City? — Hiring partners struggle with
identifying students who are likely to remain in the same geographic area permanently. And in a world
where law students are likely to be married to or involved with another high achieving professional the
geographic issue has grown increasingly complex (especially because one cannot inquire about
relationships, intentions, etc.) One of the most important jobs of a office interviewer is to determine
whether the student is a safe bet to move to Chicago permanently after graduation. Previous ties by
life experience or education are useful and for Chicago living in the broadly defined Midwest is often
a reliable indication. However, the office interviewer should probe students gently about other cities
they are considering and where Chicago ranks in the derby. The better and more national the school
the greater the options of the students. A student who admits to considering three or more cities is
usually a very poor bet. You will have to say ‘no’ to students with sparkling credentials if your gut tells
you that they are poor long term bets to stay in Chicago.
Does the Student Have the People skills to Work with Clients, Colleagues, Staff? —
Practicing law requires prodigious analytical skills. It also requires the ability to get along. People who
have the common sense, flexibility, and adaptability to handle high stress situations will succeed in
large firm practice. Those who do not will fail. Perhaps not as first or second year associates. But at
some point, those with less than sparkling personal skills will cause headaches for partners and clients.
· Some wonderfully bright people cannot handle the stress of large law firm practice. That they are
bright is not an excuse. Try telling a client, “well gee, I know Roger is a jerk, but he’s a really smart
jerk.” · Or “I know Ann kind of ran the meter. . . . .and there’s about 50 extra hours of time — but you
know those really smart lawyers we hire —sometimes they just start thinking hard about things so
complex you couldn’t possibly understand them —and before you know it you’ve run up another
$7,500. Oh those youngsters. Ya’ just gotta love ‘em.”
Is The Student Committed To Private Practice In A Large Firm? — You must spend
some ‘quality’ time on these questions. Law schools admit a fair number of bright folks with no
aptitude for private practice. And they admit more students who are attracted by the bright lights and
prosperity of practice but with no understanding of the pressure, stress, and demands of long-term
life in a firm. There are many exceptionally bright law school graduates who simply are not suited for
private practice in a demanding premier national law firm. That says nothing ill about them and
nothing special about the firm.
It is a simple reality of free enterprise in the market for professional services. If you
sense that a student is on a garden walk toward some other destination in the profession and that they
are looking at working for a major national law firm as a temporary gig, say ‘no.’ No matter how
charming, how smart, how otherwise well credentialed don’t be buffaloed into calling this student back
for interviews. Yes, there are students who are looking for $125,000 a year as a way to attack a
mountain of debt and then move on to something else. A lawyer who leaves at the 2-3 year point has
made little financial contribution to the firm and their professional contribution is not only limited but
evaporates in most respects the moment they leave. This is a gut check on suitability - there is no one
right answer but if your gut tells you someone is a risk, think carefully before opening a trap door
towards a sinkhole of lost time and lost money.

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2.Elicit Facts — Don’t Intimidate
Armed with the traits you are seeking and your considerable anecdotal experiences about students who
have succeeded and those who have fallen short of the mark, you must develop a style of questioning
that is thorough without being invasive, careful without being confrontational, and open-ended
without being irrelevant. Litigators are familiar with many different methods of examining witness.
An experienced lawyer should have a comfortable personal style for eliciting information. You must
have a style that is comfortable and you must not have canned questions that you lob to each student.
Rather you should try a style that incorporates the following
Establish Common Ground — No matter how weary you are, take a minute at the
beginning to establish common ground. It is not too different from meeting a client for the first time
or meeting people at a dinner. Some light-hearted banter about common interests or experiences is
a great way to relax the student so he will ignore the laser-like precision with which you ask your
questions.
Tell the Student where You are Heading — Tell the student about the broad structure
of the interview. There’s no magic to making it a mystery. Tell her that “I’d like to spend most of our
time talking about your interests and experiences. I know 30 minutes will go by in a flash, but the more
I can learn about you, the better I will be able to discuss your credentials with our hiring partner.”
Maintain Control — A good litigator never lets a witness run the examination. Being
cordial and polite lets the witness think that he is in control — but you must carefully guide the student
through issues, topics, and follow-up.
Ask Open-Ended Questions — We’re not engaged in cross-examination. An question

that invites a “yes or no” answer is too narrow. Open-ended questions invite a student to discus an
experience. Thus “..So. I see you are on the Law Review” gets you nowhere and looks like a time waster.
By contrast “tell me about your experience on the Journal of The Law of Greenland” invites the student
to talk about articles, responsibilities, interests and the like.
Listen and Follow up — One of the hardest skills for young trial lawyers to learn is to
listen to the answer. It will usually suggest a raft of follow up questions. Do not tie yourself to a canned
series of questions. When you’re tired toward the end of the day, you may be tempted to turn off your
‘listen’ switch. The effective listener is usually an effective interviewer.
Examine Relevant Core Experiences — Get to the heart of the student’s life and work
experiences. Pick experiences which will allow them to extol their traits, people skills, depth, and other
talents. A little time spent reading resumes the night before will allow you to flag 2-3 talking points on
almost any student’s resume. You will learn about the student and they will be flattered that you are
prepared and interested. If you have concerns about the student’s intellectual depth, pick work
experiences that took their intellect for a test drive. If you are concerned about people skills pick an
experience where their people skills were tested.
Avoid Leading Questions — Even the dullest student can field an obvious leading
question about their intellect. You accomplish nothing by asking leading question, And you do not
invite answers that lead to detailed follow up on relevant subjects. Do you really expect that if you ask

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the student “Are you smart enough to practice here?” they will respond “Could you please repeat the
question?”
Stress Tactics — Unless you’re planning to refer the student to a grand jury, stress
tactics are pointless and counterproductive. First, you may not be as good at them as you think you
are. Second, if you are, you’re show boating and picking on people smaller than you. Rent Gulliver’s
Travels and learn the real lesson of the story. Third, exactly what is it you hope to accomplish — a total
emotional breakdown in your office? Kindness and thoroughness are the order of the day.
The Gift of Silence — When a student completes their answer, think about pausing
before launching on to the next question. Students will often volunteer more information if you give
them a moment. Do not let the moment drift into awkwardness, but this tried and true trick of the trial
lawyer can lead to terrific information. The pause needn’t be more than 2-3 seconds — the students’
subconscious desire to fill the void will lead to other (and often meatier) answers to your question. Try
it.
C. Sell
1. Listen to Students’ Needs — Only a handful of lawyers understand the critical art and
science of selling — Substantial similarities exist between the art of developing, cultivating, and
servicing clients and the process of selling, landing, and keeping a law student. Most lawyers are
distressed to learn when they first try to prospect clients that the client is not terribly interested in
their brochure, their rich Corinthian leather folder, their resume, or a tour of the firm copy center.
A prospective client is interested in someone who will listen to her needs, discuss her
problems, and offer her solutions. The prospective client is not interested in a detailed recitation of
a firm’s capabilities — at some level they know that there are many fine large law firms. So the ardent
business developer learns that focusing on needs, not capabilities, is the road to originating business.
So too is the path to success in recruiting.
A story is often told about the sales training used by BMW. Their sales persons are
schooled in all the features of a BMW — mundane, subtle, technical, practical, and esoteric. They are
taught to walk the prospect around to 17 ‘talking spots’ on the car — and to explain both the feature
(e.g., anti lock brakes) and the benefit (safety). The theory is to listen to the customers needs and
questions and to point to features and benefits of the car.
Consider that you are trying to find students in a competitive market when you are in
gentile fist fight with dozens of firms. The temptation is to do the easy thing and inundate students
with brochures, flyers, websites, cocktail parties, call back dinners and all the rest. Throughout the
exercise they will be inundated with all manner of direct and indirect marketing. At some point even
the best law student cannot make intelligent comparisons — and grows impervious to further ink,
audio, video, or edible inducements.
Sales efforts often fail because the interviewer does not listen, fails to hear the unstated
concerns, and fails to walk a mile in the student’s shoes. Sure it is time-consuming, but as the harvester
of raw materials, you know that this investment has a substantial pay off. So, throughout the process
listen for the needs of the student. To the law student you are the firm - not the brochure, not the

89
building, not the scuttlebutt on campus. If during your 30 minute interview you demonstrate interest
and enthusiasm you will personify what the student wants — a firm that cares, a firm that is personal,
a firm that listens — not a mega firm which is cold, dismissive, impersonal, and unappealing.
2. You Are The Law Firm — To students, the law firm is not a brochure, a building, or
a ‘firm’ of hundreds of committed and talented professionals who work with thousands of clients
throughout the nation. The lawyers who the student meets are the firm. Whether the student accepts
an offer depends in large part on their gut feelings about the people they have met. There’s no magic
in this discovery. In any setting — arguing a case in court, negotiating a deal, making a presentation
to a potential or existing client — the lawyer is the firm. The client, judge, or adversary on the other
side of the table defines the firm by their impressions of you. For the law student, the firm is first
defined by the office interviewer. At the end of the interviewing season, having visited many law firms,
had more good lunches than they can tolerate, and been inundated with brochures, websites, clippings,
and all the rest, students make a gut decision based, in large part, on their impressions of individual
lawyers. It is an interesting exercise for any lawyer to remember what made them decide to join the
firm —whether you came to the firm right out of school or joined as a lateral hire.
Try to remember images and impressions of the day you interviewed and how you
squared your previous impressions and the market scuttlebutt with the conclusions you drew after
meeting a dozen lawyers. Then try to remember how you felt as you walked to the elevator. Did you
hope to get an offer? Were you excited, confused, tired, apprehensive? Did you silently cross a finger
or two or three? To live the life of a student again, go back to your thoughts. It will help you carry
the day now that you’re on the other side of the table.
Joining an elite organization with a powerful tradition of excellence confers honor,

privilege, and considerable responsibility. In every walk of life, just the mention of a certain firm or
organization creates a powerful image about the individual who is, once was, or will be a member of
that team. Consider what you think when you are told that a person is · a heart surgeon at the Mayo
Clinic · a Force Recon Marine, Army Ranger or Navy Seal · an investment banker at Morgan Stanley
· a partner with McKenzie, Bain, or BCG. Institutions create impressions of excellence, and traditions
based on the efforts of thousands of professionals for decades. But the first part of building a brand
image is the impression left by the office interviewer.
Your firm has name recognition and cachet with students at leading schools. It gives
you far more in the way of responsibility. If you get to know people in similarly elite and successful
organizations you will find a common thread of loyalty, respect, and professionalism. A similar
tradition of professionalism, belonging, respect for tradition and a commitment to excellence exists
within the firm. Let students know about it — and you will begin the process of making them want to
become part of your team. As a part of the team that hires new lawyers you have the honor and
responsibility of participating in a critical process. What you say, how you present yourself, and how
you evaluate and sell students has a profound impact on the firm’s current reputation and its long-
term future.

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Litigators know many trials are decided in the opening statement. So they prepare, rehearse,
study, anticipate and deliver their opening with persuasion and precision. The office interview is
the opening statement of recruiting. A terrific office interview can seal the deal. A mediocre office
interview puts the firm in a hole from which there is only a remote chance of recovery.
3. Sell The Strengths of the Firm — Every interviewer should be able to sell the entire
firm. That does not mean a memorized regurgitation of 22 canned facts provided to the hiring
partners. What it means is being able to tell the story of the firm, its practice, and its people —
completely, factually, credibly, and thematically — from the point of view of the individual interviewer.
Every firm struggles to communicate a message / image to its clients and its recruits. And in a market
where firms compete against scores of others - all claiming to be unique and different - it is
increasingly difficult to craft and deliver a message that resonates with your target market (here, law
students). Students are skeptics and they struggle to compare and contrast firms. They are bombarded
with hearsay and marketing and often wonder whether the image reflects reality.
Words are just the beginning. You must to put meat on these bones - and explain how
and why the firm is better, different, passionate, innovative. Give the student examples - real life
examples from your work which prove the assertion. This is the most powerful way to bring the
message home. It is indeed the ‘story’ of the firm, writ large. The student carries will remember
anecdotal descriptions of how a firm is different and special. Simply saying you are will simply not
work. Know the facts relevant to students. You should keep the firm NALP form on your desk during
the interview season so you can readily answer questions about demographics, promotion,
compensation, and other details that come up repeatedly. There’s nothing more embarrassing than
a lawyer in one practice area who has not the foggiest idea about the size, growth or leadership of
another area.
Consider what sold you on the firm yesterday and what keeps you here today. Your
internal impressions can tell a powerful story to a student who is trying to visualize being part of your
team. Your pride in your practice, your firm, your team, and the profession should radiate across the
table — there is nothing like a sense of an elite proud team working together on challenging matters
that conveys a better message to law students. Be able to sell beyond your group. That does not mean
that a benefits lawyer needs to know the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. What it means is that if you
know the demographics, the clients, and examples of recent substantial matters (with curb appeal) in
other groups that shows students you are a firm - not just a bunch of independent teams in the same
building.
It is your story to tell - and the interviewer, beyond being a lion tamer, is a story teller.
Telling the ‘story’ of your firm, your practice area, your matters, and your choices makes the
institutional recruiting process personal and far more effective. It’s a matter of finding your voice and
weaving into the story what you know about the firm and its lawyers. It can be the most effective
weapon in your recruiting arsenal.

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C. What Students Believe - A Walk Through The Garden of Hearsay
Students rely on many resources, but their first stop is the Internet. The typical law
student lives on the Internet. They have a healthy skepticism and familiarity with law firm websites
and are also likely to do searches on the ‘net to find out more about your firm. Visit your own website
and read the news items, department descriptions, and recent developments -- your students will know
most of this information cold. Students also rely on secondary material on the Vault Reports and
discussion boards known as the ‘greedy associates’ sites. Participants in the discussion groups include
students, associates, and occasional outsiders. Information at that site, and its cousins is like what one
would hear at a bar -- controversial, informal, sometimes reliable, and often mildly entertaining. Even
if you don’t believe what is said, and don’t respect the anonymous posters, it is one way to take a pulse
of part of your audience.
Students still put considerable stock in the 3-4 page NALP forms. The forms provide
extensive current and historical data on compensation, summer programs, partnership, chargeable
hours, department size, number of women and minorities, and firm policies on everything from
vacation to part time work to chargeable hours. Take time to read and understand your own NALP
form because your interviewees will have read it the night before interviews. The most frequent source
of information, hearsay, and rumor about firms is the law school grapevine. Students will hear first,
second, and third-hand stories about firms, summer programs, and all controversial issues. They will
arrive at the firm with a raft of impressions about a firm. Even at schools where your contingent of
summer program alumni is large and strong, many of the impressions will be wrong. But just as when
you were in law school the distant drumbeats of ancient rumors have an amazing ability to resonate
with students.
The Pariah of Perceptions - Professional success is often influenced by perceptions within the firm.
Sometimes perceptions are incomplete or unfair. Students also rely on perceptions. Their
perceptions, no matter how unfair or superficial, play a powerful role in recruiting. While we may
disagree with students’ perceptions, we must remember that students are the customer and the
merchandise. Walk a mile in their shoes.
Students will have read parts of ·the Vault Guide for your city · The American Lawyer
summer program and mid level associate review issues · The Insiders’s Guide to Law Firms and
America’s Greatest Places To Work With A Law Degree. Resisting the temptation to analogize between
selling high end imported cars and the virtues of large law firm practice, there is no question the
process is similar. One must sell a firm’s features as well as the benefits which those features confer
on its lawyers (e.g., a broad client base offers a wide range of opportunities). Students admire well-
prepared interviewers. And, frankly, in the 2009 market, you are at a pronounced disadvantage if your
answers are wrong or superficial. Worse still, if you do not know and say you will “get back” to a
student, you lose credibility. Take the time to become expert about your firm.

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D. Answer Questions Persuasively

Offer specific, concrete answers to general questions. When a student questions you about atmosphere,
do not answer with a generalization or an adjective. Describe an experience, a fact, or an observation
that proves the generalization (i.e., “we’ve always been an informal firm — I can remember how
pleasantly surprised I was when I was a 1st year associate and I went to see the head of my department
about a sensitive matter) (“let me tell you about a pro bono appeal that I argued as a 3d year associate)
(“I’d always wondered about responsibility, but as a young corporate lawyer I found myself working
across the table with partners from other leading firms very early on in my career..”) (“I know that
atmosphere is important but, you know, it is hard to describe. Let me tell you about our recent · how
we work in our mock trial program”).
1. Can you answer these questions about the Firm? — Do not interview unless you can
answer the following questions accurately and persuasively. · What is our starting salary? · Our
summer associate salary? · What are our average client chargeable hours for associates? · How many
summer associates did the firm hire this year? · How many received offers this year? Last year?
Accepted Offers? · What is the firm policy on judicial clerkships? · How many partners have been
elected in the last 1, 3, 5, 10 years? · How large are all of the firm's departments (not just yours!)?
2. Answer General Questions With Specific Experiences — The most effective selling
is low-key, informative, fact-specific answers to students’ questions. Do not pretend that you are
having your deposition taken. Feel free to elaborate on answers — giving specific details about the firm
and its practice to address a student’s concerns. Point to particular sections of the web site, press
clippings, or other materials to inform the student about your practice. · Tell some self-deprecating
stories (providing they can be told in 30 seconds and do not assume detailed knowledge of no-action
rulings in Idaho or the genesis of the Trust Indenture Act) ( which can fascinate colleagues at cocktail
receptions but will cause sleep apnea among students).
3. Listen to the Unstated Question — Often students will be concerned about a ‘tough’
issue — such as turnover, compensation, treatment of women or minorities, advancement to
partnership. If they’re dancing around an issue, just dive right in and answer the underlying questions.
There’s nothing more persuasive than an open and inviting manner of answering a question. A terse,
superficial or dismissive answer implies one or more of the following · you do not know the answer ·
you do not think the answer is any of the student’s business · you know the answer and you do not
want to talk about it · you believe the student’s concerns are immature, unwarranted, or droll. The
client development analogy is, once again, germane — you would never be dismissive toward a
prospective client. Meet your Keogh plan — this student may fund your retirement. Treat them with
respect, interest, and concern . A mundane question can be a launching point for a terrific
conversation about strong selling points. For example “tell me about the summer program” allows you
to do much more than describe its structure and purpose. Rather, you could answer the question with
a recitation of specific factual head-lines that are persuasive and memorable. Consider the following
Last summer we had X summer associates. Y received offers of permanent
employment. It was a terrific group --- more than 50% were female, and the students
came from 9 schools, including Northwestern. We tend to hire most of our new
associates from the program. I know it is hard to put a summer program into words
— but let me tell you how I worked with summer associates this year · one came along
with me to a hearing in Springfield · another prepared a witness preparation outline
for a deposition and sat in on the deposition ---it was a complex securities litigation

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where our expert was in investment banker · we have a program where our summer
associates shadow a partner and actually follow us around for a few days. All in all
I think it is pretty realistic. The hiring committee encourages us to get our summer
associates involved and we take their suggestion seriously.
I know you will be frustrated when you hear the same question for the umpteenth time
from yet another student. Please try to understand that their questions are sincere if occasionally
unimaginative. The most common questions from students are predictable and have not changed
substantially. · Tell me about the summer programs · Can I get a variety of assignments · Do I have to
specialize? · What about split summers? ·How are summer associates reviewed · How does partner
promotion work? · What is a two tier partnership? · How many offers did you give last summer? · What
is your summer associate and new associate compensation? · What about part-time? · Tell me about
your atmosphere? · I’m interested in Sidley / Jenner / Foley / Jones Day / etc. Why are you better? ·
Tell me about hours · I hear everybody is unhappy / works hard at Adams and Brown? Most students
are exceptionally nervous early in the season and are so worried about their own interviewing skills
that they have difficulty formulating novel, complex, prize-winning questions. While it is easy to grow
weary of students repeated questions and having to explain the summer program for the fourth time
on a long day, anxiously waiting for a break to return calls to clients — you must keep on pitching and
catching. The best student may be the last of the day. That the last student repeats the same question
asked by ten others should not be yawn-inducing.
I recall sitting in an office in the Arco Tow ers in Los Angeles in 1976 and blanking mom entarily about which firm I was
visiting ( Gibson Dunn, O’M elveny, Paul Hastings, and Hughes Hubbard and Reed were in the sam e complex). M y first
instinct was to read the stationery on the lawyer’s desk but I quickly concluded that any visible letterhead could be
incoming correspondence. I waited until a break, dashed to the men’s room and made certain to walk by reception to see
the firm’s name on the door. The year before I was having lunch on a call-back interview with a prominent W all Street
firm . When coffee was presented I decided I had to have a cup. Since I hadn’t had any during 22 years on the planet, I
reached for the dish in the middle of the table and dumped a spoonful of what I thought was sugar into my coffee. It was
salt. I didn’t skip a beat and drained the first cup. Nervous? You bet.
E. Hot Issues This Fall -
Law students tell me that ‘the buzz’ means, roughly, what is trendy, popular, or hot or cool depending
whether you were first familiarized with societal trends in the Beatnik, Woodstock, or Tommy Dorsey
generation. In any case, the following are the most common ‘tough issues’ students speak about when
they are outside employers’ earshot. For most tough issues, no one best answer exists. And, most
thoughtful talented students do not mind if a hard question does not have a simple answer. What they
want to hear is that employers have some sympathy for their point of view and that the law firm is
thinking about how it can handle tough issues.
1. The Recession And Recovery - This is the number one subject on students’ minds.
The level of anxiety on campus is exceptionally high - even at the nation’s finest schools. The Class of
2010 applied to law school when the economy was in high flight and now finds itself interviewing
during a severe recession. No one from Barack Obama to Larry Summers to the head of the law firm
where you are interviewing knows when the recession will end and how quickly the economy will
recover. Students worry about their debt load, whether they will be the victims of lay offs, and whether
all of the rules have changed just as they take the field to play the game. Those of us who have been in

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practice for a long time know that the economy goes through cyclical changes and that the leading law
firms continue to prosper and grow. And to be fair lawyers (and partners) in firms struggle daily with
the real economic consequences of the recession. But this does not mean that we should ignore or
diminish the legitimate concerns of students we hope to hire.
The worst thing a firm can do is to pretend that the recession never happened. In the
recession of the early 1990's only a few major national firms were candid with their associates and the
public when they laid off lawyers because work was slow in an office or practice area. This dreadful PR
gambit was as unsuccessful as it was transparent. Amazingly enough, when the current recession hit
Silicon Valley firms in 2001, the same firms that led the race to inflate starting salaries were the first
to dissemble about massive layoffs. One leading firm laid off more than 25 percent of its associates but
claimed that all terminations were ‘merit-based’ or ‘voluntary.’
The Internet gives a real time quality to the dissemination of information - good and
bad / real and rumor / relevant and specious - about firms, lawyers, management and compensation.
Law students who are new to the professional world are inundated by an avalanche of rumors far
greater than the quantity available to those of us who graduated 5-25 years ago. The typical student
arrives ‘in the box’ this Fall with a boat load of uncertainties about the recession and how it will impact
one’s career.
The student is not likely to think in terms of head count and utilization issues as of
2009. It can be useful in interviews to acknowledge that all firms have felt effects from the recession.
But a skilled interviewer can point to concrete information that sells the firm to the student including
· stable or growing partner profits · continued growth through mergers and lateral hiring · stability in
offers extended in the summer program · the long-term track record of the firm in terms of
profitability and sound financial management. It is also worth noting to students that Chicago firms
never get quite so high as California and New York and we almost never fall quite as low during dips
in the economic cycle. The relationship between lawyer income and cost of living remains incredibly
favorable in Chicago and that resonates with students who are worried about debt retirement, home
ownership, family and the future.
2. Mergers / Expansion / Consolidation / Closures - Students will ask a lot of questions

about a firms's recent mergers / expansions/ or other structural changes. Understand that students
have a limited knowledge base on law firm mergers. They hear the buzz words and read the
announcements but are highly unlikely to be sophisticated about · synergy · cross selling · profitability
and utilization issues · and other financial and administrative issues. What the student needs to know
is that a merger is a sound idea for the firm and one based on optimistic strategic plans about the
future.
Law students don’t need a garden walk through financial statements, strategic plans,
or the day to day evolution of the merger. What they need to be is informed of the basics and assured
that what made The Firm special yesterday is equally true today now that the merger has been
completed. Understand that some of their questions may seem amateurish or unsophisticated but they
represent sincere curiosity about the firm. You should embrace students’ concerns, welcome their
questions, and provide crisp answers. Students will want to know how mergers will effect them.
Among their questions will be how the culture will change will this have any impact on recruiting
how has this changed the day to day lives of associates and partners does this mean you are

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‘becoming a New York firm?’ why did you do this is there anything comparable on the table. The
best way to allay their concerns is to make your comments personal - talk about your reactions, how
it has effected your day to day practice, etc. This will go a long way toward assuring the summer
associate that the change is positive.
3.Split Summers —Split summers are increasingly popular and reflect, more than
anything, the two-professional relationships in many law students’ lives. Your policy on this should
be explained clearly so that students do not call with a misunderstanding in late November when they
have an offer in hand and propose splitting summers in a way that is not acceptable. My rule of thumb
is that the student who wants to split and come to the firm last has already placed you second in a one
horse race.
4. Part-time Work —You will be asked detailed questions about part-time work, part-
time partners, the effect on compensation and advancement, when part-time work is available, etc.
Explain your policies with care and precision. Students often hear what they want to hear and
vagueness in the interest of selling can create considerable confusion down the road. At a minimum,
you must know your black letter policies, how many part-time attorneys (partners and associates) are
with the firm, and any special nuances about practice areas, compensation formulae and the like. If
you have a policy about when one is eligible for part-time work, explain it.
5.Salaries And Bonuses —This is a controversial topic. After two periods of explosive
increases in compensation 1999-2000 and 2007, the associate salary market appears to be taking a
step backward. It’s likely that in the last year the national “starting line”for large firms in large markets
will fall from $160,000 to $125-145,000 with similar reductions in total compensation for experienced
associates. This issue is in flux and it is likely that many firms will make adjustments in salaries in the
Fall of 2009 and the Winter of 2010.
That is strong testimony to the resilience of the major firms, the respect that clients
have for the best legal services available, and the ability of the firms to adapt to changing conditions.
All lawyers in major firms in large cities should take acknowledge that the ‘run’ of prosperity for the
profession has been remarkable. For the last fifty years, partner and associate income in large firms
in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles has far out stripped the growth in income for almost any
executive or professional group. It’s worth considering during the heat of the present debate. Also
noteworthy is that the changes in starting salary, while substantial, have not been extreme -
Starting Salaries - 1977 v.. 2008

1977 2008 Annual Increase
From 1977-2001
NEW YORK $25,000 $160,000 6.17%
CHICAGO $22,000 $160,000 6.6%
SAN FRAN CISCO $18,000 $160,000 7.3%
6.Parental Leave —More and more students ask about maternity and paternity leave
during interviews. Do not simply answer the question with warm and vague adjectives about this
important issue. Know the firm’s policy and state it clearly and simply. Those of us who are parents

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know how tough and important this issue is - and we also know that there are no easy answers. The
profession struggles with this issue every day. Again what students want to know is something beyond
a label or a headline. Tell them about examples - tell them about your own life if you’d care to share
details. This generation of students talks about the issue more than earlier generations because of more
law students tend to marry someone with equal professional ambitions. So the issue is front and center
earlier on - and students are struggling with their private concerns about whether they can (or should)
‘have it all.’
7. How are Cases or Deals Staffed? Most firms claim that they are the exception to the
rule and that they ‘staff leanly.’ Take this theory a step further and explain how you staff your deals,
matters or cases. Simply pointing in the direction of your brochure and saying you are different will
not accomplish anything. You are not selling pastrami at Manny’s (where it is lean every day) (I usually
take a table on the left in the back room and would be glad to meet you for lunch any Wednesday).
Instead give the student two examples of how you staff a deal or a case and explain how that leads to
greater responsibility, partner contact, client contact, etc., for the junior lawyer. That is the real
information which makes your contention credible.
8. Specialization —This area has not changed. Many students want a wide range of
choices in the summer. Some do not realize that firms will assign new lawyers to departments and that
specialization is increasingly important in different fields. Interviewers should distinguish between
the honestly open-minded and the unfocused student who may well not understand why they chose
to attend law school.
9. Chargeable Hours — This tough issue can be simplified and humanized. When a law
student thinks of hours they hear comments like “everyone at XY&Z works 2,500 hours a year” or “isn’t
2,000 hours a year horrific” or “ABC is a sweatshop but XY&Z is a smaller firm so their hours have to
be shorter.” The best way to discuss an issue like this is to have concrete information on · budgeted
hours for associates · average hours for associates.
Break down what that means. As a hiring partner, I’d sit next to a student get out my
trusty HP-19B and go through a calculation of the actual hours in the office during a workday required
to generate 2,000 hours a year, if you assume 3 weeks vacation, 5 holidays, 5 personal/sick days and
working e.g., 1 weekend day 2 weeks a month it requires 7.9 chargeable hours a day (which can be done
in 10.5 hours a day if one assume as 75% efficiency of total time versus billed time). Doesn’t sound as
bad as law school does it?
All of us know that the leading national law firms have demanding environments - to
be the best and among the most profitable one has to work hard. It’s that simple. But in the process
of recruiting remember that the best students at the best schools are ambitious people who are
accustomed to working hard (and who enjoy it although it may not be PC to admit it in public). For
decades the best national law firms have attracted the best and the brightest who want to test their
mettle in the most demanding environment possible. This generation is no different.
10. What is Early Responsibility? How Can I Get it? — A constant theme in students’
questions is the quest for early responsibility. All students say they want it and all law firm brochures
guarantee that it will be given. What is important here is to state not only a firm philosophy but how
you put this philosophy to work in your day to day practice. If you can humanize the issue by

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explaining the type of work 1-4 year lawyers do for you or within your group you will go a long way
toward addressing this concern. If you stick to the superficial label, you will have done nothing to
distinguish the firm for its competitors.
III. The Art of the Meal - Follow Up and Closure
A. Effective Call Back Meals
1.Remember the Purpose — The call-back lunch (or dinner) has two purposes — low-key
evaluation and low-key selling. The first characteristic is akin to visiting a wild animal park. Stay in
your Land Rover and observe the animals. The heavy lifting in evaluation has been done. You will
evaluate ‘soft’ characteristics such as commitment, demeanor, etc. But this is primarily a time to set
the stage for an effective farewell and to let the student de-compress, talk about their morning, and
enjoy the moment. It is not the time to turn up the heat, talk about the ‘real issues,’ or, worst of all,
either ignore the student while you talk to your other lunch companion or subject the student to a
withering barrage of tag-team cross examination.
2.Keep it Small — Keep the group small. 1:1 is too small and 3:1 can make the student
feel like the fourth cushion on a red hot billiard table. 2:1 seems to work best. Try to arrange the
seating in a circle or in any way that the student does not feel as if they are being tag-teamed. It sounds
trite, but make sure you know the lawyer who is teaming with you for the lunch. Nothing is worse than
a pair of young associates who obviously do not know each other from Adam or Eve. It plays into that
stereotype of the large anonymous firm that all of us work so hard to avoid.
3.Prepare — Read and review the student’s resume before meeting them. Please do not
take it with you to lunch — I’ve seen that done and it is not only strange and impolite it sets a terrible
image.
4. Venue — The best place to take a student on a call-back lunch is a comfortable,

reasonably quiet restaurant which takes reservations and is conducive to a comfortable hour with a
prospect. Chicago is a terrific restaurant town and there are many fine choices in a 5-10 minute walk
from the firm. During the interview season, you should pick one or two restaurants where you are
known, where you are comfortable, and where you are confident that you’re reservation will be
honored in a timely fashion.
5. Schedule — Check with the secretary of the lawyer who has the final interview to see
if they are on time. If you’re pressed for time, pick up the student at their last interview. The last
interviewer will appreciate it and you will be on your way in a more timely fashion. Ask if the student
would like to visit the facilities --- it has been a long morning. • Check with the recruiting coordinator
to find out if they have another interview after lunch. Many will head to another firm for a 2 p.m.
interview and that means that lunch has to conclude by 1:30 if they are going to be able to head across
town. Asking them lets them know that you care about their needs. When you arrive ask to order
promptly so that your law student keeps on their schedule.
6. Atmosphere & Privacy — Pick a restaurant that is neither formal/quiet or

casual/raucous. The former can be intimidating to an already weary student. The last makes it too hard

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to have a good conversation. Pick a restaurant where you can have a bit of privacy so if you feel the
need to talk about sensitive issues you won’t be overheard by a team of associates from a leading
competitor seated at an adjacent table. Of course, you won’t be criticizing another firm? Don’t do it at
Frontera Grill, Kiki’s, or Manny’s. I’ll be listening.
7.Reservations — Pick a restaurant that takes and honors reservations — neither you
nor the student needs to be kept waiting • Have your secretary confirm the reservation and let the
restaurant know that you’re running late —if you’re a ‘regular’ they’ll appreciate the call and take care
of you.
8.Alcohol — Nope. Read it again. Not at lunch in 2009. Iced tea, mineral water, good
old H20 or a Diet Coke works.
9. Don’t You Just Love Tandoori / Calamari/ Sushi ? — When it is time to order offer
suggestions in a good natured way if there are terrific things there — many students will appreciate
suggestions. Save the unusual cuisine for later. I like Tandoori and Cuban cuisine as much as the next
lawyer, but I’d wouldn’t eat it at lunch if I had another tough interview. And, who knows, your law
student guest may not like it at all. 26
10.Tone and Structure — The conversation at lunch should be light and unstructured.
The student has been through a evaluative interview on campus and met 5 or 6 other lawyers for
detailed and exhausting questions. Avoid at all costs “Do you have any more questions?” or “What can
we tell you about the firm?” This causes the student’s question-meter to turn back on and they will
either repeat 10 questions they’ve asked 5 other people or they will go back into the full upright and
locked position and the lunch will seem like another interview. The goal is unstructured conversation.
Another favorite is “Who have you seen?” What is this, Jeopardy? I’m so tense I can’t see straight!. You
expect me to play the name game? It’s your firm.
11.What You Can Still Learn — ‘Unstructured does not mean that evaluation is cast to
the wind. Sometimes the behavior you see at a lunch is at odds with the behavior the student projects
to interviewers earlier during the day. While you are not trying to lay the groundwork for sinister cross
examination a wealth of information can come out during a call back lunch, including • How serious
the student is about Chicago • Who else is on their ‘list’ in Chicago • Whether they are serious about
the firm • Seriousness about the practice of law or a practice area • Attitude and demeanor when in a
relaxed setting. The list goes on and on. The point is that while casual and unstructured the exercise
still is important.
12. What To Pass Along To The Hiring Partners — The lunch can also gather
information that is critical to the follow up exercise later in the Fall. For example, you may learn •What
26
My first post-offer law firm dinner was with lawyers from Los Angeles' Loeb & Loeb - still one of the titans
of entertainment and other fields. I joined five or six lawyers at the still legendary Valentino's in W est Los Angeles - home of
a wine list the size of the Guttenberg Bible. The first course was something best described as calamari three ways to Sunday -
fried, sauteed, and raw. I had never been a squid fan but I worked my way through dinner. Today I love calamari but still wonder
whether it was the best choice for a student on his post offer dinner. Perhaps they were testing whether I was sufficiently
cosmopolitan. If you get to L.A. and someone else is buying Valentino's is worth the journey. If it's Chicago - call me - we'll go
to M erlo, Trattoria Dinotto, or Spiaggia. Calamari anyone?

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other firms are in the mix — and how they view them• Whether they are thinking about ‘splitting,’
judicial clerkships or other issues that may effect their career calendar •. The lunch interviewer can be
decisive in collecting information that forms the foundation for follow up later in the fall
13. Reporting and Debriefing? — As soon as you’re back in the office, write, dictate, or
e-mail your impressions to the Recruiting Coordinator. A lot of the ‘soft’ information you pick up at
lunch will be lost if you wait a day to do so. You will make the committee’s work easier, less expensive,
and more effective. It is small price to pay. I once recommended that my recruiting coordinator not
approve any expense report for lunch until the review had been received. She smiled and reminded
me that I was about 15 reports behind. Stay tuned for another episode of The Cobbler’s Shoeless
Children.
B. Post Offer Follow-Up & Entertainment
After students receive an offer, the most challenging part of the effort begins — convincing a top
student from a leading school to accept an offer from the firm from among four to eight others which
they are probably considering. It is here where many well intended lawyers make mistakes, by • doing
too much • doing too little • not sensing what students want and • not providing the hard facts, soft
background information, and receptive ear that is essential to closing the deal. In 2004, the fistfight
will be brutal. In Chicago alone, more than 90 firms compete with the firm to hire the best students
from the best schools. And, each of those firms has charming, persuasive, enthusiastic young and
experienced lawyers who are eager to deliver an ‘acceptance.’
The process is exhausting confusing and wearing for students. Even the best students
wallow in a sea of mixed emotions — while it is not cool to think about salaries --- yes the do talk about
salaries • while they really do not want another call today about “what more can I tell you” most are
also flattered by the attention • while they claim they do not want to go on another dinner or repeat
visit the find most of it informative and enjoyable • while they desperately want to make an adult and
independent decision they also need comfort and support. Everyone has a different style. Just as your
leading client developers will have different styles of developing client relationships, so too will your
lawyers have different styles of developing relationships with law students. Partners should forgive the
occasional exuberance of youthful lawyers Try not to say ‘you’ve only been here an hour and a half —
how do you know what we do or how we do. The reason — your new lawyers can be your most effective
advocates on campus. Similarly, junior associates should appreciate that a partner’s style of contact
and follow up may be more direct, less gregarious, but in the end just as effective. Give each other
some breathing room and work together — in many ways it is the difference in your approaches that
proves the diversity and flexibility of the firm
1. Why entertain or Follow up? — The answer is as simple as it is often misunderstood

or forgotten — to close the deal. Whether you are an associate taking an interviewee out to lunch in the
middle of the day or an attorney doing a follow up dinner in Chicago or another city, you must keep
your eye on the ball and always consider what is • appropriate for the firm and • will close the deal with
this student.
2. When to Contact The Student — One of the best ways to launch follow up is to make
the offer by telephone. Law students are notoriously hard to reach but are most likely to be around

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their phones from mid-afternoon to early evening. Resist the temptation to call them in the morning.
Most without classes are in a coma. Those with classes are eager to be on their way. I know we would
all like to have the right to sleep in, but just let them enjoy their last year of a student’s life.
3. The Point Person — One person should be in charge of the follow up strategy for each
candidate. This does not mean that one person does all of the follow up. But one person, probably from
the campus team, should coordinate the effort. This allows the committee to know • the range of follow
up that is taking place • what issues are open • and whether to continue or to back off and let nature
work its course. Some of the biggest mistakes are made when too much is done, or a firm calls the
same student four times in one day. This is not an attempt to infringe on the first amendment rights
of your colleagues. This is the same coordination that is done when prospecting or servicing a client.
If Mies were in charge he would remind us ‘less is more.’ The follow up team can easily stay in touch
by e-mail, voice mail or stopping the hallway to chat. But coordination is essential.
4. Frequency — Here the point person must assess the needs and concerns of the
student. Some students love to be smothered by the attention. A few despise it. Most are somewhere
in between. When you first communicate the offer you should make it clear that you would like to do
whatever is possible to have the student join the firm. Suggest some possibilities including, as
appropriate, return visits, speaking with lawyers in groups where they have an interest, meeting junior
or experienced lawyers in other groups. Note and record their reaction, enthusiasm and interest and
pass along your observations to others who were on the campus team or who met the students on
campus.
5. Mailing — Let every lawyer who met the student know that they’ve received an offer.
Tell them the name of the ‘point person’ and ask that they advise the point person of anything that they
learn. Encourage office interviewers to drop an informal notes to the student. Do not use a form or
canned letter - it looks terrible and can be smelled in Gary (which is pretty amazing).
6. Calling — Serial calls to students (and I made many) can work but at some point it
becomes telemarketing. If you must call keep it light, friendly, and informal. Please do not ever use
tiresome phrases “What else can I tell you about the firm?” It plays into stereotypes about large cold
law firms and at some point a student will become peeved. Then you’ve lost.
7. What is Reasonable? — Follow the firm’s rules. Period. You do not need the
aggravation and trying to go over any limits or guidelines detracts from the purpose of the exercise —
closing the sale.
8. Venue — When you call the student have a range of dates, times, and venues in mind.
Make some suggestions but do not leave it to the student to choose because they’ll feel it is not their
prerogative. Remember they spend their day as a student wearing jeans and taking an evening to dress
formally and come downtown is enjoyable but is a burden. Something that’s less than terribly formal
will probably work wonders. A nice bistro or mid-market Italian will be more effective than Spiaggia
or Les Nomades. Student’s schedules can be stranger than lawyers --- many have seminars or evening
classes. So arm yourself with an array of options.

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9. Size — You have more latitude when having dinner with a student. It would be
appropriate to invite their spouse or significant other. But if they do that, you should probably keep
the overall group down to 4 or 5. If the group gets larger, the focus diminishes and the festive
atmosphere while thoroughly enjoyable may be ineffective. A group of 1 lawyer (and spouse or S.O.)
and 1 student (and spouse or S.O.) is ideal. Once the student begins to feel outnumbered the event
loses its effectiveness.
10. Expense — Keep it reasonable. If your firm has guidelines live within them. Period
end of discussion. A reputation for excessive entertainment helps no one - particularly the
‘entertainer.’ As a young associate, the last thing you need is a reputation as one who spends the firm’s
resources unwisely. One anecdote can follow you around for years (I’ll never forget the former
colleague who took 5 lawyers, 3 guests, and 2 summer associates to “Pops For Champagne” for a total
of $975.00)(The summer associates never accepted; the ringleader left the firm and the entire event
was a conspicuous waste of money and time).
11. Novel Ideas — Creativity can carry the day. I do not presume to give you a roster of
creative ideas ---that’s up to you. But understand that the best students are inundated by predictable
offers for dinner, lunch, return visits. Be a little different. If the student is out of town and you’re
traveling there, call and invite them to breakfast or dinner (dinner’s better - students loathe early
morning appointments). If you see something they might enjoy reading — whether it is substantive
or light-hearted, send them a copy. Sure, along the way you will make small mistakes— but you will
never accomplish anything until and unless you get your creative brain cells to work.
12. Return Visits — Some students will want to return to visit with additional lawyers.
Yes, their indecisiveness may drive you wild. But this can be an effective sales tactic. You should offer
it to the student — but not press or insist upon it. Among the reasons for a return visit are • to visit
with lawyers in a department missed on the first visit • to visit with senior or junior lawyers • to meet
with lawyers with similar backgrounds • or just to add some comfort level to their decision. It is critical
to just make the offer and to not press the issue. Some students will do something out of guilt or
because they think they ‘have’ to although inside they’ll be seething. Keep it low key.
13. Coordinating — Throughout the follow up stage, keep the hiring partner, recruiting
coordinator and members of the campus or follow up team advised. It is child’s play with voice mail
distribution lists or e-mail. This gives your colleagues real time information on attitudes, issues, and
preferences. If you’re the point-person you can tell other lawyers on the team when the time has come
to lay-off and sit back.
14. Enough is Enough! — You’ve done your best. You’ve been creative, cooperative,
collegial, inspirational, irreverent, and displayed uncommon interest in the student. Now it is time to
get the Gelusil, sit back, and wait. You will win some; but you will lose others. If you bat .300 and 3 out
of 10 students accept offers, you are doing quite well. Sometimes your victories will be the long-shots
you did not anticipated. And, sometimes you will lose students who seemed certain to accept. Do not
berate yourself. Just keep at it.

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C. Offensive or Discriminatory Questions

In 2009, a vast majority of lawyers with leading firms would never intentionally step on this dangerous
turf. However, there is a potential in all of us ask questions or make comments that can be viewed as
offensive or discriminatory. Remember that · every word you speak, every question you ask, every joke
you share is offered during an interview. · You are not finding drinking buddies, dates, or good friends.
· You are first and foremost interviewing a law student. · Your words are the words of the firm. Law
schools are a an exceptionally politically correct and sensitive environment. A casual aside or ‘joke of
the day’ that would easily pass as normal banter inside a law firm can be viewed as offensive to a law
student. So, there will be no jokes about Afghanistan, Barack Obama, John Kerry, George Bush, Bill
Clinton, or the subject de jour for Jay Leno and David Letterman. A question must be related to
someone’s fitness to practice with your firm. Ask yourself if · you would ask the same question to all
students · be able to defend your question to a vigorous investigative reporter, plaintiff’s lawyer, or
government investigator. Troubling areas where lawyers can mis-step include —
Asking older lawyers questions which imply age discrimination (e.g., Why did you wait to go
to law school? Do you like working for people younger than you? You do not have that many
years to practice — how will that effect you? Are you energetic enough for these hard-charging
youngsters?).
Asking women lawyers about child care, plans to raise children, pregnancy, sex life, birth
control and any other similar issue. N.B. women lawyers often ask the most troublesome
questions in these areas when they have one on one meetings or meals with prospects. In an
attempt to sell a firm as a firm that is ‘friendly’ to women they step on the land mines of the
student’s plans. Do not cozy up to a student and then drop a grenade by straying into these
areas. It happens all too often.
Before you make a comment about basketball to an African-American student — ask yourself
if you made the same comment to all white women that you met? I didn’t think so. Do you
make the same comment to all African-American clients?
Do not ask students about restaurants that cook cuisine which you expect they enjoy. Buy a
Zagat Guide and compile your own list of restaurants that feature cuisine you find unusual.
Do not ask them how they feel about issues which you believe are hot among people with
similar ethnic or national backgrounds. Don’t assume that one’s ethnicity corresponds to one’s
politics or that one’s nationality is an open door through which all manner of intrusive
questions may follow. Have you asked all of those with Irish surnames about the IRA - I doubt
it. Don’t assume that someone you believe to be Jewish shares your opinions about Israel or
that someone who you think may be Arab has a different social or political agenda. This course
is simple-minded, fraught with danger, and insulting. Stay away. Where are you from? —
When this question is asked of a minority or someone with an accent the student may fairly
assume that this is not the same question you would ask of a white man named Jones who
speaks with a Midwestern accent. Your social curiosity can be taken as an offensive or illegal
question.
Your apparent effort to establish common ground can be seen as inappropriate as well. I have
been told, many times by many minority students and lawyers, that they are insulted by the
‘river drag’ efforts of a firm to marshal all of their lawyers in a particular group and equally

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offended if those lawyers inquire about highly charged political or ethnic issues. It is a very
short walk to the dog house and there is no easy exit.
Finally, beware the evil demon of E-mail. I am astounded the casual, informal,
borderline and frankly offensive/actionable comments made by lawyers on e-mail. A class action
against a prominent investment banking firm used the forwarding of offensive jokes about minorities
as the cornerstone of its efforts to prove that the environment of the institution was hostile to
minorities. ·Do not under any circumstances, use the firm e-mail system to forward or send comments
that could possibly be viewed as offensive, inappropriate, racist, sexist, or otherwise actionable. If your
sense of humor is so gifted and un-restrainable, wait until you are home and on your personal e-mail
account. · Do not under any circumstances, send such a message to a recruit, a law student, a potential
lateral hire, or anyone who does business with your firm (including clients). ·Don’t write anything
about any potential hire on e-mail that you are not prepared to have read aloud before a jury when you
are on the witness stand. If you are skeptical about this order up the David Boies’ cross-examination
of Bill Gates and other Microsoft executives where they have had to defend antitrust charges based,
in large part, on casual, aggressive and potentially illegal comments made on e-mail.
D. Asking About Relationships & Personal Lives
One of the toughest challenges in law firm recruiting is presented by students who are married to or
involved with other professionals who are also making career and geographic decisions. Any hiring
partner can tell you stories about the excellent student they ‘lost’ at the last minute because of personal
reasons which tore the student away from Chicago. And, to be honest, any hiring partner also knows
that some acceptances are driven more by the city than they are by the virtues of their firm. Whatever
the case, the issue has such a substantial impact, that it is very tempting to inquire into this area. Do
not do it. Under any circumstances.
If the information is volunteered you can be aware of it. But do not play district-
attorney-in-training and claim that once the student has volunteered issues about their personal life
that they have opened the door to the subject and waived any subsequent assertion that your questions
are improper. Once again, the issue is not whether five years hence you will prevail on a motion for
summary judgment against disgruntled plaintiff / former student X. The question is that plus whether
a student finds the question to be improper, inappropriate and intrusive. This mistake is not one of
youth — I’ve seen it made by lawyers at all experience levels. Usually it is in a 1:1 conversation on
campus, at lunch, or at dinner where the boundaries between student and lawyer seem a bit more
vague.
Even today, many lawyers are guilty of making naive and faulty assumptions. Do not
assume · that the woman always follows the man · anything about the relative prestige or importance
of one person’s position · that married couples will have children · that single couples will not · that
the father will be the primary bread-winner · that one or both parents will change their work schedules.
For example, women lawyers are more likely to ask improper questions of women law students. When
confronted with this fact, most will say they were either just trying strike a responsive chord with the
student and certainly did not intend to offend anyone. All lawyers should be prudent, even -- and
especially--- when we feel a strong sense of common ground with the student.

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E. Negative Selling Is Dead On Arrival —

The most common error made in the law firm interviewing derby is attempting to sell your own firm
by criticizing others. The problem usually arises in one or more of the following ways
A young associate - enthusiastic and sincere in their efforts to recruit - tells tales about their
negative experiences at a firm where they spent a summer;
An associate tells critical tales based on what their disgruntled friends tell them about a
competing firm;
A lawyer passes along rumor, gossip, innuendo, or other dark stories about life at another firm
— even if those stories are twice told tales that are more properly left at urban legend websites
A partner who practiced with another firm earlier in her career feels compelled to pass along
selected warts of that firm to a recruit;
An attorney responsible for follow up learns that a student is choosing among three firms and
engages in an enthusiastic “dirt alert”; or
A student presses an attorney for a way to compare two firms on a sensitive front -
compensation, promotion to partner, treatment of women or minorities, management, client
base, level of responsibility, turnover, etc.
The attorney then tries to provide factual information about their own firm and the
competition but invariably stumbles into judgments, anecdotes, rumor, half-truths, and innuendo.
There are many reasons why negative selling is counterproductive.
First, negative selling sends a powerful message of insecurity. Why should any firm feel
the need to criticize a competitor — whether the criticism is based on facts, conclusions, or rumors?
This type of behavior screams insecurity. Second, your best competitors school their interviewers
(fairly effectively) not to do this. Third, it generally does not work. Students will collect their facts
and soft information from a variety of sources, but generally do not rely on negative selling by law
firms. Fourth, it is not necessary. A firm with a tradition of excellence such as the firm does not need
to criticize others in order to shine. Fifth, law students will respect you more if you stand on the high
plains of praise rather than wallow in the gutter of disparagement. You may be asked tempting and
leading questions by students (e.g., “Why is your litigation practice better than Kirkland’s?” “Do you
give responsibility earlier than Sidley?” “I just want to do tax? Why shouldn’t I join a huge tax practice
like McDermott’s?” “I hear you have a problem with turnover but I’ve heard turnover is even worse
at Smith & Jones ..?”). The best answer to all invitations to ‘gator’ in the gutter is to say something like
this
Harris & Baldwin is an exceptional firm. Many of my good friends from law school
practice there and I have enormous respect for the firm and its people. They are tough
competitors in the court room and in recruiting. Just a fine bunch of people. I really
can’t begin to comment on management or other internal issues there — because I
don’t work there. If you are really interested in details about their litigation practice,
you should speak with my good friend Jeanne Anderson - we were moot court
partners (and remind her, she owes me $20 for the Notre Dame game). But, I’d
encourage you to speak specifically with any firm about any issue that concerns you.
How can I answer your concerns about our firm?

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Now practice that again and say it with sincerity and enthusiasm. You really don’t want to be called
down to a senior partner’s office who has heard (reliably and promptly) that lawyers here are
disparaging a competitor. The way this usually happens is that a top recruit is sitting with a senior
partner at another firm trying to engage them in dialog about different firms. In that conversation the
student passes along disparaging information she heard while interviewing with you two weeks earlier.
The partner, incensed and enraged, encounters one of your senior partners at a social event or bar
function and complains about your behavior. You are called on the carpet. You don’t need me to paint
by the numbers to complete this un-pretty picture
Finally, beware the even more dangerous area of internal ‘comparisons.’ Often lawyers caught up in their naturally
competitive nature, cause enormous damage to the Firm’s recruiting efforts by being critical of a different group. Understand
that a student’s invitation to compare Department X to Department Y may cause them to believe that your effort to sell your
ow n group is a criticism of another. Nothing hurts a firm more than this type of mis-step. All of us are com petitive - and most
of us have a fascinating love/hate relationship w ith m any things near and dear to us - including our law firm. But just as
they teach every young M arine - w e keep our griping in the Corps. It’s that simple. There is nothing wrong with inevitable
and good natured internal competition. But there is no room for that in recruiting students.
Recruiting and Recession Reality -

How the 2009 Market Changes Recruiting, Interviewing, and Decisions
all 2009 will be a uniquely challenging season for students, laterals, law firms, and law
F
schools all of whom must assess their options and develop strategies that make sense. Law
firms have to make smart choices about protecting their current bottom line and their long-
term futures. Many decisions are difficult, politically explosive, and unpopular. This
Kimball Report examines the impact of the recession on leading law firms (2-10) law
firm terminations and layoffs (11-18) and how this recession will change the landscape of entry level
and lateral hiring (19-29).
This recession presents unique challenges not only because of the event itself but
because of the way the profession has evolved. The landscape is dominated by multi-office mega firms,
most relentlessly pursuing enhanced reach and higher profits. While not public companies with
reportable earnings pressures, the transparent economics of the profession have caused management
in many firms to focus on this year’s numbers with less regard for long term consequences. All of this
has an substantial, immediate impact on entry-level and lateral hiring. To understand how the
recession effects the profession one must examine the relationship between macro economic issues
and the behavior and decisions of law firms and their partners. A profession which is increasingly
managed by today’s numbers faces difficult choices during this recession.
The American economy is in the throes of a severe recession of uncertain length, depth,
and gravity. As this report goes to press in late August, it is clear that the level of entry level hiring
across the country will be substantially lower than it was in 2007 and 2008. An inherent part of the
law student calculus is looking over the horizon to what hiring needs may be 2 years hence. By contrast
for prospective lateral hires the issue is what is the need in practice area X now. Because of the rapid

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swings in the economy the answer for students may be decidedly different than it is for laterals. There
is an additional dimension when considering lateral moves by partners. During a soft economy law
firms looking to add talent often take advantage of what they view as an opportunistic buyers market.
For partners with established practices the horizon is bright. For partners without business the lateral
market is frankly terrible - unless they have world class skills that are in great demand regardless of
their lack of business. Very few partners will be passengers on that lucky bus.
The Recession Arrives - The most recent economic cycle was incredibly fast.
Coming out the gates like Secretariat after the last recession in 2004, a mini boom was launched which
reached its peak in summer 2007.It was far shorter than the prolonged boom of the 1990's. Since the
great Depression America has been blessed with recessions that are brief and shallow. And, the
intervals of prosperity have generally been longer than the periods of contraction.27
As in most booms, everything seemed rosy as the economy reached the top of the roller
coaster. Predictably, as the pool of talent became tight and the roses were in full bloom, associate
compensation leapt from $125,000 to $160,000 almost overnight in all major markets. Bonuses
increased, retention fell, firms scrambled to find benefits and soft dollars that would stop associates
from defecting. Recruiting for laterals and new associates had an almost manic fever — in almost all
transactional areas. Strangely litigation did not enjoy the same boom and as the economy rocketed
along many firms saw utilization in litigation soften and fall. Hints of trouble came too in the summer
of 2007 - and then over a 3 week period in August the sub prime mess spread like head lice in an
elementary school cafeteria. Associates in structured finance, private equity and other areas who had
no room to breathe in the spring now had literally nothing to do.
Of course law firms did not react quickly to turn off the hiring faucet. For decades the
story has been the same—even when the economy goes full stop, law firms are reluctant to adjust
entry-level hiring immediately. In some ways this makes sense, because entry-level hiring should look
two years over the horizon and a firm which ratchets down hiring quickly may face a seniority
doughnut hole in the ranks when the economic cycle turns. Still it made some veterans of hiring wars
past shake their weary head as firms headed to campus with the same fervor and energy in the Fall of
2007 as they did the year before.
It came as no surprise that some firms over hired - not intentionally - but because they
saw the yield from offers to join the summer program spike because some of their other competitors
were more conservative. Firms play their yield and targets close to the vest in the fall and the pattern
of acceptances is such that even an expert hiring partner can be caught by surprise.
The next effect of the recession was to freeze associates in place. Overnight the level
of lateral hiring fell rapidly and substantially in transactional areas. Litigation remained softer than
a pillow top mattress. In house options dried up rapidly. This meant that lateral hiring resembled real
estate: a lot of inventory that wants to move and not enough buyers.
27
An exception is the mid to late 1970's where Vietnam war era inflation led Nixon to impose wage
price controls which in turn led to the stagflation of the Carter adm inistration. Throughout the 1970's the stock
market was stuck in low gear. Lawyer salaries rose in response to the end of wage price controls and to follow along
with the stagflation which resulted in what Ronald Reagan called a misery index of double digit inflation,
skyrocketing interest rates, and 5-7% unemploym ent rates.

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Because the pipeline was full of remarkable bounty from deals and work in process,
most leading firms finished 20o7 with remarkably strong profits per partner - and revenue per lawyer.
Rip Van Winkle or a visitor from outer space would look at the data and smile. But inside the hallways
of firms managing partners knew that 2009 would not be nearly as bright . By the third quarter of
2008 many law firms knew that profits and revenue per lawyer for 2008 would be lower than in 2007.
For some firms the results will be terrible. There will be exceptions - some firms who stuck to the
knitting and did not chase the last chance to open an office in Timbuktu. Some firms that did not
participate in the 2007 salary derby will have a strong year.
Troubled times bring out the best and worst in human beings in law firms. Some firms
that were so eager to vacuum schools and the lateral market for talent in 2007 are just as eager to
dump under-utilized talent today. In an era when law firm economics are transparent and many
laterals with business obsessed with chasing the last dollar - some firms choose to try to fire their way
out of a recession. This ignores Rule #1 of common sense: when in a hole, stop digging. Others choose
to blame the weak and fire partners without business or who do not have protectors instead of taking
responsibility for their own failures by taking reduced compensation. Management feels under
pressure to keep up PPP - which can cause some to try and solve the problem by reducing the
numerator. A bad economy also leads to Titanic-like behavior. Partners with business don life jackets
and do anything to keep themselves afloat. Some partners without business hoard work in an effort
to keep busy and keep the compensation committee at bay. This counter-intuitive behavior may keep
individuals alive but it is terrible for the institution.
Some Firms Prosper During a Recession28 - Many firms will do quite well in
2009 - while others will stumble in the dark. Of course few of the stumblers will admit to any problem -
to their clients, their partners, their associates, or law students they want to recruit. They’ll project an
image of business as usual, but the reality is anything but. Those who succeed will have one more of
the following traits
A narrow compensation range - something often found in premier Wall Street firms.
Although it sounds alarmingly simple-minded - they are busy. Even during a recession many
well-managed law firms do not fall off the utilization cliff.
They are historically conservative on expenses (not those who discover frugality during the
panic of an unexpected recession and spend way too much time finding nickels and dimes to
chisel rather than focusing on maximizing revenue).
They have a healthy culture on issues of capitalization, hourly rates and collections and are not
trying to squeeze every dime out of every matter during a recession.
They stick to the knitting - and devote resources to their core strengths - rather than trying to
be something they simply can’t be. The footrace of inexperienced firms into hot transactional
areas that are now in distress - e.g., private equity, structured finance, m&a - is having
28
I respectfully decline to offer a roster of firms who will succeed and those who may stumble. I won’t
ever recommend that a student interview with a firm at OCI where I believe the firm is significantly troubled. But
I decline to engage in a public debate about firm x v. firm y.

108
predictable results. Many firms who did not have depth in the area and expanded too little and
too late will suffer setbacks. Interestingly in quieter times those who dominate a given area still
tend to get more than their fair share of the work.
They resisted the edifice complex and did not rush to plant flags in markets where it is very
tough to compete. New York is home to more than 200 national firms from other cities who
barnstormed into Manhattan. Many learned the hard way that making inroads into that very
tough town takes time, luck, focus, and enormous amounts of cash. The same can be said for
new entrants into other hot markets such as the Silicon Valley / Bay Area or more routine
destinations like Chicago. The Windy City now has 65 firms national firms. Some offices are
spectacularly successful, others have stumbled, and many are simply frustrated because they
find it more difficult to grow than they originally anticipated.
An institutional team approach to client service -and client ‘ownership’ - at many firms the fist
fight over credit for client service is at epidemic levels and the conflict intensifies during a
recession. This primitive battle yields short term benefits for the winner but damages the
culture growth and profitability of the firm. If the energy devoted to internal squabbling over
existing business were devoted to business development it could increase the size of the pie
rather than feed a knife fight over the slices.
Law Firm Mismanagement 101 - The reasons firms stumble during a recession are
many but the following are prime candidates
Firms which over-invest in expansion feel that pain during contraction. If a firm launches
offices in new cities with unrealistic expectations they can make any number of mistakes
including being overly optimistic about the pace of growth hiring laterals who over
promise and under deliver hiring serial laterals who are latter day Tom Joads moving from
firm to firm in search of free food and a warm camp fire over investing in space being
naive about their ability to plant a flag in a competitive market (Park Avenue in New York and
Figueroa in Los Angeles are figuratively littered with the carcasses or ghosts of firms who did
not understand the market or the competitive pressures of L.A. or New York).
Firms which over-invested in highly-compensated laterals who have 2-4 year guarantees which
immunize them against a recession (often these contract partners are not required to
contribute capital until they “go on the schedule”).
Firms which have acquired so many groups of laterals from so many different firms that they
lack the glue which holds firms together during economic downturns. A rising tide lifts all
boats but groups of partners who have only been around 2-3 years may be searching for life
vests and rafts rather than waiting around to see if the firm recovers.
Firms that pursued goals that were inherently unrealistic given the culture, finances, or client
base of the firm. Rome was not built in a day - and overly ambitious agendas of remarkable
increases in profitability, head count, or revenue come at a price. When a firm announces an
overly ambitious model - it is like setting up the hurdles in the 400 meters. This requires
changes in rates, collections, mix of clients, compensation ranges and philosophy, and a
cultural shift of mammoth proportions. To be fair a handful of firms have done this but their

109
cultures have changed. Whether one wants to be the junior person in the ranks during this
radical transformation is a tough question.
Firms that called for more capital during a recession - which can be about as popular as yelling
“fire” in a movie theater. Banks who freely loaned money to firms during the boom are now
insisting on stronger financial metrics for lending - including increased capital, faster
collections, etc. Law firms in turn try to stay out of the bank through more disciplined
collections.
When hours fall the environment can get downright toxic. Those without business panic and
begin hoarding work. Fights over credit for new business become more intense. The pressure
to collect intensifies - even as clients are also tumbling into a recession. By reducing headcount
utilization goes up. For a while. But many firms who have dumped battalions of lawyers find
that other talented lawyers head for the doors because of discontent with management or
because they are now perceived as more vulnerable by headhunters.
Law firms reflect the world their clients live in - being located in a market where the overall
economy is weak has consequences. So too does over dependence on an area of practice that
goes from boom to moribund overnight (e.g., mortgages, structured finance, private equity,
and the fall off in big case litigation which so many firms depend upon). Many firms with
capable management have been whipsawed by macro economic issues beyond their control.
Any experienced partner has gone through economic trends and knows that a sunny side is
coming in 2-3 years. For a law student or new associate whose first view of the profession is
an industry in disarray, this can be disturbing.29
How Not To Save Money In A Recession - The next step is often attempts to cut
expenses -which usually does not save that much money and offends people because the effort seems
so small—minded. When the petty expense cutting brigade sharpens its paring knives, expect a rapid
falloff in morale. Some of the ideas would be funny if they weren’t so counterproductive. Some of my
favorites include —
Locking the library on the nights and weekends after firing the night library staff making it
impossible for associates to do research unless a security guard was called to let them in and
out (for bathroom breaks too)
Placing 9 volt batteries under lock and key - I suppose there’s some secondary market on
playgrounds for lawyers who have to dictate briefs 24/7.
29
As a member of the Class of 1977 interviewing in fall 1975, I did not understand how economics
impacted opportunity. I knew New York was in trouble and that the aftermath of Nixon Wage Price Controls and
Ford’s lamentable “W hip Inflation Now’ was somewhere between tragicomedy and reality. Many firms came to Ann
Arbor and could not fill their schedules. The premier California and D.C. firms would hire only off the Law Review
as long as someone’s grades were 3.7 and above. The entering classes at law firms were tiny - many premier Chicago
firms had entering classes of 10-15 lawyers, tops. Still all of us did fine. It was just a bit more chaotic. This year’s
class will be fine as well. They will just have to work harder to get where they want to go. No I am not saying that
things were tougher when Giants W alked The Earth. But I believe that understanding the history of the profession
can cast a light on the experiences students may have this fall.

110
Installing an ATM inside the firm and charging $1 per transaction as a processing fee for the
firm
Circulating a memo announcing that on firm business equity partners fly first class, non equity
partners fly business class, and associates fly coach (I suppose associates should be grateful
they are not checked luggage or placed in the carry on bin).
Canceling discounted parking for partners and associates but keeping those.... shhhhh don’t
tell anyone .... 12 private spaces reserved for senior management (whose parking is covered by
the firm).
Limiting attorneys to one can of soda at the firm dinner buffet -and assigning a catering
employee to do everything but strip search offenders as they leave the dining room
Signing up the lowest cost caterer who makes his margins by reusing baked goods in violation
of city ordinances and takes unused food from law firm A to lunch at law firm B.
Switching to single ply paper in the rest rooms - the same month that someone decided you
could save money by lowering water pressure.
Encouraging lawyers to write on both sides of the page on legal pads.
Setting a quota for supplies - equity partners get 6 legal pads, income partners-4, and
associates only 2.
Developing an formula to calculate per capita charges for clients for evening air conditioning
when lawyers working on their matters are present - thus allowing a firm to charge for hot air
and cold air simultaneously
Shipping enormous quantities of cardboard legal pad backs to the firm’s main office because
the recycling contract was less expensive (of course shipping them in the overnight Fed Ex bag)
Having the firm decorated by the managing partner’s spouse -an un-credentialed decorator
who did a bad job decorating her own home - who may work for free but has a bunch of captive
vendors whose prices are outrageously high.
Back charging clients for parking when it appears to be free (but keeping of course the free
parking for the management committee).
Continuing to spending six figure sums on partners’ vanity charities - where the cause
supported has little if anything to do with improving the business flow of the firm.
Demanding frugality from all - but keeping lavish perks for senior management - and believing
that somehow this won’t be noticed by more junior partners and associates. Inconsistency here
sends a terrible message - but it’s unfortunately widespread -and often found in troubled firms
whose senior partners keep fiddling while Rome burns.

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Treating the copy room and fax room as profit centers and charging clients a per page cost 4-5
times higher than Kinko’s.
Suggesting that all law student interviewees stay in the antiquated “guest rooms” at a stuffy
disciminatory downtown club because it would “save money.” It also helped the responsible
partner meet his minimum for the club for the year through guest stay in his name.
Using pirated software repeatedly rather than buying additional licensed copies.
Ignoring the copyright laws to circulate copyrighted articles about the impropriety of sharing
downloaded music.
Telling associates that they would not be given computers because it would make them too
efficient and turn them into stenographers. Presumably giving attorneys telephones would
turn them into operators and giving them Dictaphones would cause many to start night
businesses as court reporters. Many of the same senior partners are computer illiterate but
nevertheless have very fancy equipment in their office as a prop to impress their clients. Go
figure.
Buying off market toner for high end color lasers and being surprised when the work product
looks terrible and printers are damaged.
Having cozy relationships in the purchasing department with vendors who charge twice as
much as anyone else in town for computers, calculators, office supplies, and furniture. Don’t
criticize this one or the carpet will be removed in your office and the wheels on your desk chair
will roll towards the exit.
Suggesting that all students from a given law school travel together for call backs to save money
on group tickets.
The Icarus phenomenon - they flew too close to the sun during the boom and had
fantasies of grandeur that were unrealistic. They pushed hourly rates too high for their markets and
for the caliber of their services. The astonishing ability of mid-size and large U.S. law firms to push
hourly rates up faster than any index of inflation is either admirable to incredible depending on your
vantage point. During an era when the CPI has increased 3% a year at many law firms have been
pushing rates up 10% a year or more. As the legendary telemarketer Susan Powter used to shout “It’s
Time to Stop The Insanity.”
Interestingly firms who de-equitize flotillas of partners find the event is not expense
free. The de equitized partners receive their capital back - it would not be unusual for a partner with
average earnings of $500,000-800,000 a year to have $300,000-500,000 in capital. To refund the
capital the firm writes a check to the partner - then it should to replace the capital - by increasing
capital required from remaining partners. Altheimer & Gray replaced capital by borrowing more
money during a recession when work was slow. Game over. Don’t put in another quarter.
Proper treatment of lawyers over 50 - not just because it avoids a visit from the EEOC
- but striking a balance between the demands of youth and what older partners can contribute and
developing systems that move client relationships from one generation to another. Over the next 15

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years many mega firms will embrace a culture where retirement is mandatory at 50-55. A government
suit or a class action by departed partners will be a drain on cash, time, morale and reputation. A firm
that prides itself on its culture and atmosphere has a tough time explaining to the public and recruits
that it is setting lawyers adrift like a dead Viking on a Nordic ice floe.
Changing the rules on partnership - adding another year or two to the time for
consideration for income partner or equity partner does not save the firm that much money (if any at
all). It is profoundly demoralizing to the classes about to be promoted and it makes junior classes
wonder if the rules will be changed - again - when they are up for promotion. A firm is probably better
off promoting fewer partners and being candid about the reasons why. Changing the rules of the game
is the type of step that is internally demoralizing but a real body blow to recruiting. Don’t assume that
you can soften the issue by saying something like “under our new system associates will be eligible for
a window to promotion at the end of their 7th-9th year when in fact you are going to lean to the 9th year
a vast majority of the time. If it’s bad news - don’t try to fuzz it up with an audience that is already
highly skeptical of the news and the motivation for the change. It will work like a Ron Ziegler press
conference. For those of you who don’t understand the reference do some research on Richard Nixon’s
experiences with the media30 .
This will have three effects. First since capital partnership is now a 11-13 year
proposition at many firms and law students are a bit older (on average), new equity partners will be
36-40 years old. This gives them 10-15 years to maximize their earnings. In the quest to resemble an
investment bank law firms may discover that similar demographic curves do not necessarily or easily
result in comparable partner income. Second, some truly talented lawyers will simply pack up and
start high profit boutique firms that run circles around their overhead laden former firms. This won’t
destroy the mega firms - but it will require more than a band aid to stanch the bleeding. Third, that
friendly knock from the EEOC which asserts that shoving over 50 partners out the door violates federal
law. The boomers won’t go quietly and it won’t be pretty.
Post-Recession Life In America’s Leading Firms - When the recession runs its
course, what course will be taken by America’s leading law firms to position themselves for the
recovery. Among the issues presented will be the following
Pyramids or Diamonds - Where’s The Future? - For decades the legendary Wall Street firms
have relied on a staffing model with 3-5 associates per partner. This “leverage” is the magic
word to many in the profession. To be sure the profitability of the Wall Street firms is driven
by their leverage. But it is also a reflection of other core elements of their practice a
30
President Obama is the second American president to have served on the Law Review of a top 10
school. Richard Nixon did so when at Duke in the 1930's. Nixon’s cutting edge article on no fault automobile
insurance was criticized for years by Prosser in his legendary treatise on Torts. He saved a footnote ripe with scorn -
not because of Nixon’s views on torts - but because he despised his politics. During the Second W orld W ar, Nixon
was a naval officer with an administrative assignment at various islands in the Pacific. My dad, a pilot in the Marines,
played poker with Nixon when they happened to be on the same island. My dad always said that the Marines thought
Nixon cheated at poker, but they could never prove it. I wonder whether Nixon got a complimentary tune up from
some of Uncle Sam’s M isguided Children? I’ll never tell. W hat does this have to do with your career ? Absolutely
nothing - just thought you’d like to know. Don’t know about complimentary tune-ups? Com e to Chicago - we’ll get
you one and a key to the city too.

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compensation system which is either lock step or close to it for all partners a simple
compensation system with only 3-5 levels of compensation for partners client matters which
require heavy staffing and which permit aggressive rates or premium billing. Without those
three factors the legendary leverage would not have the same effect. The best Wall Street firms,
with relatively few partners, as a matter of necessity must push responsibility down the
pipeline rapidly because of the shortage of partners and senior associates. In an ideal world this
can be a bargain for clients because their work is being done by highly capable associates at
lower hourly rates. The Wall Street pyramid can also be a boon for energetic and talented
associates who receive work way “above their pay grade” early in their career. It’s not easy and
the chances of making partner are not high but the pyramid system has its benefits.
Non Wall Street firms who wish to emulate the leverage model have several problems to
address. First they may have a surfeit of partners without client relationships who do work
that would be delegated to senior associates in a New York firm model. Second, to achieve
leverage they have two choices - one unpleasant, the other almost impossible. The unpleasant
way to achieve better leverage is to terminate large numbers of partners. The impossible way
to do it is to simply hire vast numbers of associates to fatten the bottom of the pyramid. That
only works during a boom when the firm has far more work to do than it has people to do it.
In a recession - that’s just not likely. A more profitable alternative, given the name the
“diamond” by Fred Bartlit of Chicago’s Bartlit Beck is a system with relatively few junior
lawyers - relatively few very senior partners and with a bulge bracket in seniority of mid-level
associates and younger partners. Agile creative smaller firms might be wise to study the Bartlit
Beck model rather than to create an ancien regime pyramid which simply does not work
outside the island of Manhattan.
What is the next “hot” corporate area? - Since the dawn of corporate practice partners have
reinvented themselves to match the needs of their clients and the activity in the financial
markets. Ten years from now a new wave of transactions that are just a glimmer in the
imaginative eyes of a few visionaries will drive the engine of the next economic boom. But a
familiar echo will be heard as that boom reaches its peak - will law firms react sensibly or will
they inhale the ether of the boom, staff too aggressively and build depth in a field just as the
economy staggers into the next recession?
The future of big case litigation - The Emperor may or may not have clothes - that can be
debated later. What is clear is that big firm / big case litigation is changing. E-discovery is
changing the life of young associates in ways which are not pleasant. Many law firms nationally
who traditionally run at 110-115% of budgeted hours in litigation are running at 90-95%. This
small change has profound long-term implications. To date firms do not appear to have
adjusted their entry-level hiring in litigation. I believe that will change in the next 2-3 years.
It is not unusual to have a disconnect between the needs of departments and the volume of
entry-level hiring. Lateral hiring is often a reliable leading indicator of current levels of work
in large law firms. In most cities in the country, lateral hiring in litigation has dropped 75-80%
in the past three years. Change is on its way. The question is how law firms will adapt. Some
optimists believe that a resurgence in securities and antitrust litigation will awaken the firms
from the litigation slumber but that remains to be seen.

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From senior partners with portable business to entry-level associates, the profession is driven
more than ever by the almighty dollar. It would be almost impossible for many lawyers to
conceive of a pre-American Lawyer world in which attorney compensation was not
transparent. In the early 1980's large law firm profits were disclosed for the first time. Today
many firms report and acknowledge their revenues and profits to remain competitive in
attracting the best partners with established practices. Stratospheric hourly rates are
accompanied by rapidly rising associate salaries and partner distributions. From 1992 through
2007 per partner income in AmLaw firms increased far faster than the cost of living or the
prices charged by their clients for their products and services.
How will this change in the next 5-15 years? If the recession is brief and shallow it may be
business as usual again. If the recession is long, deep, and unrelenting, the legal profession
may have to make some profound adjustments. One of the greatest challenges presented is that
any change in a partnership’s system will be viewed with skepticism and hostility by partners
who believe that it is designed to disadvantage them. Tinkering with the genetic code of any
firm’s compensation system is very risky. Firm systems range from completely transparent full
disclosure to systems in which only 2-3 partners know the compensation of all partners. In
some firms a list is available but you have to go to the managing partner to see it. In others
“bands” of compensation are disclosed but not the compensation of individual partners. Just
as many variations exist in associate compensation. But the most difficult challenge will be
presented if the profession hits a wall in a deep prolonged recession where it is impossible to
maintain profitability. Stay tuned.
Hourly Rates and hourly pressures - Hourly rates for partners and associates have risen
steadily and rapidly for decades. Even during the past two recessions many of the nation’s
firms were aggressive on increasing hourly rates. They have been equally aggressive on
increasing the budgeted hours required for partners and associates. When the economy slows
or a change in the practice world occurs (e.g., the slow down in complex commercial litigation),
revenues and profits drop rapidly. A firm can’t simply say “work more” “work harder” or “bill
more” if there is not work to be done. If the amount of work “in the house” falls then the magic
number of “utilization” falls. During this recession firms accustomed to 110% or more
utilization have seen that number fall to the mid or low 90's. How will this evolve in the next
five to ten years? It’s hard to say. But if a recession is deep or prolonged law firms may face
falling profits - and will find that firing partners and associates does not really begin to solve
the problem.
The size and structure of highly profitable law firms — Twenty years from now the list of the
most profitable law firms will have changed. Some famous firms will have disappeared, others
will have continued to expand nationally and internationally. But the day of the agile boutique
or mid-size firm is far from over. In a day of incredibly high hourly rates and massive
overhead, there will still be room for the single office boutique or the agile mid-size firm which
can be highly profitable working with either Fortune 100 or mid-market clients.
The proliferation of national firms will ultimately be constrained by conflicts of interest and
the slower growth of the national economy. Law firms will still “grow” by acquiring practice
groups and other firms - but it will not be organic growth in the profession - it will be an era

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of continued consolidation. In most major cities boutique and mid-size firms still compete to
offer clients high quality service (often at more competitive rates). As law firms shed more and
more partners, the boutiques may grow stronger as they join forces with partners who can
build their practices in an environment with less administrative structure/burden and far lower
overhead. The major national multi office colossus is obviously a competitive force to be
reckoned with. And every year will bring more multi-office firms to more markets. But it is not
a foregone conclusion that will displace the competitive mid-size and boutique firms.
All major markets have very strong firms with fewer than 100 lawyers - many of which were
founded by alumni of larger firms. By keeping their focus on reasonable rates and staffing they
have compete effectively with larger firms for cases from Fortune 500 and mid-market clients.
Most of these firms remain very busy during the recession. Many concentrate their hiring
efforts on mid level lateral associates and hire relatively few lawyers through campus
interviewing. Chicago is home to many highly successful firms with fewer than 100 lawyers.
The firms include partners who are nationally recognized by their peers as leaders in almost
every conceivable practice area. For students reading this article, please understand that
almost without exception the partners in these firms recoil against the label “life style” firm.
They are not aroma therapy shops located in Big Sur. They are specialized firms with premier
clients who handle matters as complex as the mega firms. To compete with the mega firms you
work hard, you market, and you enhance your skills. They have, to be sure, interesting and
different cultures. But they are not “life style” shops. Class dismissed.
The smaller firms are highly profitable and many are competitive with mega firms on associate
compensation. Most of these firms are approached by Chicago and out of town firms about
mergers on a regular basis - but they have strong cultures and are dedicated to remaining
independent. Of course each year brings more examples of boutiques or mid size firms joining
a national firm. It will be interesting to see how this evolves in the next twenty years.
Partner Departures - The leading reasons for partner turnover withdrawal and
retirement in the ordinary course of business - firms have varying approaches to this but the
headcount over 55 in large law firms is not insubstantial and this number will depart more rapidly than
earlier generations partners leaving for government service partners leaving to move in house
partners leaving to form their own firms partners leaving individually or in small groups to join
competing firms - often national firms entering the marketplace and death.
There are some interesting and complicated issues relating to partner migration. First,
partners receive their capital from their current firm. Under partnership agreements this may take
place over 60 days to 1 year. Second, some firms have old fashioned non-compete agreements - of
dubious enforceability that may provide that partners forfeit capital and distributions if they join a
competing firm. Third, some firms have withdrawal provisions which provide additional payments
1-2 years after the lawyer leaves. Again some firms try to apply different rules on the amount and
timing of these payments depending on whether the departing partner joins a competing firm.
Fourth, depending on the time of the year the partner leaves they may or may not be fully distributed
and forfeiture issues can arise from mid year departures in some firms. Fifth, firms have rules about
the solicitation of other lawyers and firm clients - these rules may attempt to reach beyond the point
of departure and may not be enforceable in all states. Partner departures tend to spike in mid January

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and mid April which in most firms are the point in the year when current cash distributed most closely
matches the partner’s share of earnings to date. Class dismissed.
Involuntary Partner Departures - far more partners are asked to leave firms than
the media or blogosphere acknowledge. This is true for several reasons
Departures in the ordinary course of partners without a high profile in the bar or the media
don’t attract much attention.
It is often in the best interest of the firm and the partner to maintain confidentiality - and
surprisingly that’s done quite often (a few years ago an AmLaw 50 firm asked more than 30 of
its equity partners to leave and the issue never hit the media and was never picked up on the
gossip network).
The departures may be “soft” - management suggests that a partner leaves and gives them
ample time to make a transition.
In some old school firms departing partners are introduced to in house positions with existing
clients creating a win:win for all concerned
Partners are not cookies - they are not done in batches - when 1 or 2 partners leave a firm every
couple of months to different destinations - it looks like the ordinary course of business — not
another lawn mowing by the Grim Reaper.
Beyond the soft and benign departures, there are of course departures which are
involuntary, blunt, and done without warning. This year has seen many examples of AmLaw 200 firms
nationally offloading substantial numbers of partners. The firm’s approaches have varied. Some have
taken the lead in the media and acknowledged the economic driving factors. Others have denied they
are doing anything tap dancing behind implausible explanations that are almost Nixonian in credibility
and effectiveness. Others have described efforts to stanch bleeding in particularly slow practice areas.
There are few patterns to the layoffs, but some similarities emerge The firms tend to
have tremendous depth in areas .e.g., securitization / real estate which has gone from supersonic to
parked in the last year a firm tends to be, in the view of management, top heavy and rids itself of
partners in an effort to maximize earnings from other partners a firm has selected niche
areas/offices which are closed or which can no longer be profitable under the new regime of
management a firm is on a campaign to push remaining partners to generate business from new
clients and along the way decides to do an angioplasty on the current ranks a firm has taken
aggressive steps to expand in certain cities and practice areas and to finance the acquisition of laterals
in those areas has to make cuts in areas that are now deemed less worthy .
Understand that partner cutbacks do not automatically lead to increased earnings. This
is true for several reasons. Terminated partners receive their capital (which other partners must
replenish) and often are due withdrawal payments which can be substantial. A cultural shift where
termination of partners is now acceptable can put a for sale sign on the firm’s partners and make many
long-term successful partners consider opportunities elsewhere -some of these partners will take client
relationships with them. The overhead associated with a partner does not disappear unless you start

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sub-letting empty office floors, and laying off support staff and associates. Of course sub-letting empty
floors can be challenging in a recession. A firm has to reserve from earnings a meaningful amount
because some departing partners are not going to go gently into that good night - they will litigate in
a way that is expensive, embarrassing and time consuming for the firm. If all of this is done to bolster
the bottom line - fair enough. A firm should just admit it. But a firm might adopt the style of large
Japanese companies where senior management takes the financial and operational hit for mistakes
which caused the earnings trough to occur. Bottom line: expelling or terminating partners with 10%
of the partnership shares/points/units will not cause an immediate 10% increase in earnings for the
remainder. In fact the gain may be infinitesimal and not be achieved for 12-24 months. The equal
likelihood is that the step will be counterproductive.
Voluntary Partner Departures - For partners, the pace of lateral hiring is brisk
during a recession. Firms seek to add depth and believe that doing so in the recession may be less
expensive than waiting for the next boom. And a firm wishing to make a strategic move may have fewer
firms to compete with than they will if they wait for the next boom. A firm investing for the long term
believes, correctly, that to build in a new area takes time and a lateral hire project concluded in late
2008 may bear fruit 18-24 months hence when the economy recovers. While the economy is in a
recession, mega firms nationally continue to open and expand offices in new markets. To do so, they
attract talent from home grown firms. The strongest firms are willing to pay up to build their talent
base. All of this means that partners with established practices are hot commodities even in a sour
economy.
Associate departures - Associate resignations / terminations occur for many

reasons as well. The most common are the following:
Strictly voluntary - in good times and bad, associates resign for reasons having nothing to do
with the firm and the economy. They decide to move to another city, switch from a larger firm
to a smaller firm, enter government service or academia, switch professions, or leave the work
force temporarily or permanently. This group includes strong performing associates who
would be strong candidates for partner - but they make another choice. This drives firms to
distraction but there is basically nothing they can do about lawyers who make intelligent life
choices.
Voluntary, but see a train coming - Perceptive associates often decide that its prudent to
explore other options for myriad reasons including fall off in work in their firm or practice
area a poor professional or personal relationship with partner(s) in their group
unfavorable demographics - too many senior associates and not enough chance for promotion
recognizing that their group does not have the clout or will not spend the capital to promote
and protect its associates tough times on a tough matter for a tough partner which makes
them believe that their reviews may not support retention, promotion, or appropriate bonuses.
This type of departure peaks during a boom period when lateral opportunities are ample and
the economic skylines bright so that in a 2 professional household it seems risk free for one
member to either leave the work force or at least dial down from the mega firm compensation
levels.

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Voluntary but are told the train is coming - in some firms a mid-year or informal review will
convey to the associate that a problem is looming around the bend. This news could be
conveyed by a department head or mentor but is more likely to be a subtle signal than a formal
warning from the firm. Still associates should be watchful for this type of warning in 2009.
Involuntary following probation - an increasing number of firms have formal evaluation

programs which provide a clear warning shot across the bow that performance or work level
or something else must increase or improve. Often partners are fairly clumsy about delivering
this news. Just as often associates don’t hear what they don’t want to hear. So when the day
arrives six months later the associate claims honest surprise that they were not told anything.
Misconduct - more often than associates suspect, attorneys (partners included) are asked to
leave the firm for misconduct. This could include offensive behavior (harassment,
discrimination, substance abuse), poor client relationships, shoddy work and lots of it (or no
work at all), malpractice, violation of disciplinary rules, or from time to time - just because the
lawyer is an incurable jerk.
Involuntary - not progressing / or will not be promoted - In every firm associates are told at
various stages of their development that it appears that they will not be viable candidates for
promotion to partner. This can happen as early as the first year or as late as the eve of
partnership decisions. Associates need to be tea leaf readers who are acutely aware of signals
because firms are masters at indirection. The best indicators: are you receiving as much or
more work as anyone else in your group? Are you working for the most influential partners on
their most significant matters? Is your level of responsibility rising steadily? Are you being
given front line responsibility of major matters for significant clients. If not - leave. Now.
firm-wide layoffs - This year has seen several examples of widespread law firm
associate lay offs to a degree matched only by the traumatic years following the 2000 dot.com bust.
During the 1990-1992 recession, law firms for the first time terminated large numbers of associates
and partners. Most did not hit the media. The most conspicuous example was Latham & Watkins -
which announced the termination of more than 40 associates. However, it took the blame for the step,
helped the departing lawyers, and within 60-90 days all of them were fully employed. Latham took a
small hit on earnings, as many firms did, but generally got justifiable praise for the way it handled a
PR time bomb. Many other firms actions ranged from clumsy to mean spirited — dumping new
associates and offering little severance, luke warm references, and generally a poor attitude about the
matter. They would deny to the press that they had economic problems, insist that departures were
merit-based, all the while most of their partners sat on their hands with very little work to do.
In 2000, the recession hit with a vengeance in early Summer as the stock market fell
out of bed and the Silicon Valley deal market collapsed as fast as the Tulip bubble of 1623. This, of
course, was only three months after the revolutionary increase in starting salaries from $90-125,000
— a move initiated at a leading Silicon Valley boutique and then copied by leading firms in all major
markets. Now law firms found themselves saddled with much higher compensation and far less work.
So, the knife sharpeners started grinding. Many firms hit the hardest (some later failed) were
downright spiteful with associate terminations. Associates at some firms were only given severance
(paltry at that) once they signed general releases. Many firms would only confirm “time of

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employment.” It was an ugly time - but this time the media was more aware and involved and the
commentary on firms more blunt and timely.
As that recession was running its course in 2003 some firms still struggled with work
flow and other issues. A 200 lawyer Chicago firm - Altheimer & Gray - closed its doors in mid 2003 -
notifying new associates during their graduation week that they were no longer needed (summer
associates as well). Similar steps were taken by other firms in peril nationally31. A&G had hired an
exceptionally strong Class of 2003 ,a vast majority of whom landed at stronger and more prestigious
national firms including White & Case, Jenner & Block, Latham & Watkins, Sonnenschein Nath &
Rosenthal, Katten Muchin, Sidley and others.
A&G de-equitized about 30% of their partners, failed to replace the returned capital,
and as business slowed in 2000 continued to borrow heavily on their firm credit lines. As of their last
day in business, they owed something approaching $50 million on credit lines and a long term lease
on their primary office. The partner’s capital was wiped out, litigation ensued, and most partners had
to pony up sums in the mid six figures to settle outstanding claims against the firm.
Whether the overall layoffs are greater than in 2000 in terms of percentage of
headcount or absolute number is hard to discern. The layoffs this time are more of a public event
because of the traditional media and because of the Wall Street Journal’s Law Blog
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/ and the always readable and endlessly scandal filled Above the Law
www.AboveTheLaw.com. If a law firm sneezes, it’s in the media within an hour. Both blogs have
broken stories before firms have made announcements. In several instances lawyers have read about
their firms termination plans in the media before an internal announcement has been made. This
transparency has some faults - it spins the news cycle so fast on information which is sometimes so
tenuous that it resembles an elementary school game of telephone. Second, the lawyers who post often
have various personal agendas and axes to grind. Third, data can be overlooked, exaggerated, or
misunderstood when the news is moving so fast.
Why do firms engage in firm-wide layoffs? Most often associates in an office, a practice
group, or firm wide simply are not busy enough to support their salaries. Second the collapse of a
practice area can be so severe that it makes no sense to keep associates on the books where there is no
work to be done (this is just what the investment banking, advertising, and management consulting
firms have done for generations). Third, a firm (and they will deny this) is trying to dress itself up for
merger and wants to have a strong organizational chart and hours chart which shows that its lawyers
are busy across the board. Fourth, the fault may indeed lie with service partners who refuse to delegate
work, but it is often psychologically easier for partners to terminate associates who they’ve known for
a year or two then to go after under performing partners. Finally it may seem like associates are just
expense centers with huge salaries and benefits who don’t contribute as much to the bottom line. It’s
easier to RIF those who lack power, those who don’t control clients, and those who haven’t been on
site for decades
31
In the same year, San Francisco’s Brobeck, Cleveland’s Arter & Hadden, and New York’s Pennie &
Edmonds shuttered their doors. In the fifteen years beforehand many other leading firms disappeared from the
landscape. Some will remember Finley Kumble, Keck Mahin, Isham Lincoln & Beale, Lord Day & Lord, Mudge Rose,
Donovan Leisure, Shea & Gould, Testa Hurwitz, and Gaston & Snow, to name just a few.

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Firm-wide layoffs often fail to achieve the desired economic results (at least in the short
and medium term). Funding severance is a substantial cost - and when the associate stops billing
time but is still being paid the net effect is negative. Other associated overhead costs - space, staff,
technology, and all the rest is still on the books and is not carved down rapidly -if at all associate
layoffs can and usually do cause the departure of talented peers who the firm would like to keep
strangely enough the firm may be back in the lateral market quickly to fill these holes in the ranks - at
$40-60,000 per placed lawyer it can make for a toxic morale that spikes attrition for much longer
than the duration of the recession
Mistakes Firms Make in Associate Layoffs – Doing it piecemeal over several

months can create a toxic atmosphere where lawyers wonder who is next. Denying that it is taking
place while associates can see it with their own eyes is stupid. Being thrifty with severance saves cash.
But for recruiting purposes it puts a cloud around the firm that will follow it in recruiting for a decade.
Refusing to give references or other assistance to departing lawyers makes a firm look paranoid at best
and venal at worst.
The firm has to look out for its interests. But those interests - while inter-related - can
conflict. Maintaining the firm’s client service and revenue base is obviously critical. Expense control
is important. But when shedding staff - management should speak with the hiring partner to learn
about the impact of these steps on entry-level and lateral recruiting. A modest mis-step can tar a firm
for a decade. Just when the firm needs new lawyers and laterals the most in 4-7 years it will be tagged
as the Big Blue Meanie on the playground of attorney hiring. So firms should approach with caution
any of the following steps announcing mid -summer that the summer program will end early
announcing in the summer that associates should start 1—4 months later reducing the number of
offers at the end of the summer letting the expense police do anything that makes you look cheap
or silly to summer associates or new associates -the euros you save won’t be worth the effort in terms
of recruiting damage.
Lessons from Corporate America - Large corporations, investment banks,

commercial banks, advertising agencies, PR firms, and consulting firms have wrestled with greater HR
issues than law firms now face. They’ve learned many hard lessons. Now that law firms are often $500
million to $1 billion companies it is time to start thinking like a large organization. General Motors,
Merrill Lynch, and hundreds of other companies close divisions, reduce executive staff and handle
expenses issues every year - as public companies they have to be clear and honest about the steps they
are taking. Generally large companies like to take a large write down of their troubled assets and make
personnel cuts in large groups - and then soldier on to the next challenge. Large corporations
sometimes declare recruiting holidays and return to campus when their hiring needs resume. An
audacious step but one worth considering. Telling the truth is always the right approach - gloss and
nonsense persuade no one and tag the employer as one who lies to its employees. Sometimes lawyers
who spend decades parsing briefs and agreements engage in gamesmanship about lawyer departures.
Many law firms stumble delivering bad news - because it is hard to do.
Lessons from the Cadwalader Experience - At the end of July New York-based
Cadwalader, which had climbed the ranks of great New York firms in profitability and visibility during
the last boom terminated 96 associates - more than 15% of its total headcount - in addition to 35
associates terminated earlier this year. This unprecedented number is perhaps equaled by the ugliness

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in Silicon Valley and Northern California during the recession of 2000. Cadwalader is not the first
firm to terminate large numbers of lawyers and it won’t be the last. The timing of the move - just before
fall 2009 recruiting means that it will be the subject of more discussion. Six months from now pundits
may say that it was the first of many to take that step in the fall recruiting season. In this market, it’s
just hard to know.
The decision is troubling for entry-level hiring and it is too early to know what impact
it will have elsewhere in the community. The lateral market is aggressive. When an animal is weak and
separated from the pack they are vulnerable to attack. If the firm were to lose several major partners
from several health groups who had $5-10mm or more in business it could cause the rest of the firm
to be torn apart bit by bit.
What will be the reaction of highly compensated partners at Cadwalader? Some

highly compensated partners may be impatient if their incomes fall 30% in a year. Some may not be
prepared to endure 1-3 years of significantly reduced earnings. This type of partner is more vulnerable
to an approach by a headhunter who will promise them sunshine, green light, and better income. The
firm is home to many exceptional lawyers. Many firms are prepared to invest in partners in RE and
securitization on the notion that the areas will recover and that hiring a lateral now is right out of the
Warren Buffett school of acquiring undervalued assets.
What will be the attitude of partners who stay? There will be many who are loyal to
the institution. There are others considerably less selfless who will become protective of their territory.
A soldier in a fighting hole (only the Army calls it a foxhole) has a profound influence in the safety of
that hole. A drowning man may jump on top of another in order to stay afloat.
For the terminated associates the problem is more challenging. The question is one
of supply and demand. 100 plus associates added into any legal market at once in a couple of practice
areas - securitization and real estate - is hard for the market to absorb - even in boom times. Right now
those two practice areas are colder than Nome in November. And while those of us who are fans of the
Windy City, or Atlanta, or Los Angeles, or Seattle love to welcome expats from Manhattan - the major
law firms in non New York markets do not have strong needs in either of those areas. Re tooling is
possible but a challenge which may require lawyers to take a step back in seniority or to move to
another city - or both How about moving to litigation? In most major markets the major firm lateral
market in litigation is moribund.
Is bad news contagious? It is possible that other firms in the New York market who
had been reluctant to step into the termination cage fight may now think “well if Cadwalader can dump
100 plus, terminating 30-50 will be perceived as a nick, not a cut.” It’s not a matter of evil - it’s just
basic management in a profession which with each passing day begins to resemble advertising or
investment banking where groups are dumped unceremoniously when times are tough. If the economy
remains weak throughout the fall it is possible that further wholesale terminations may be seen
throughout the nation as firms take stock of year end results and staffing plans for 2010.
Why did this happen? Cadwalader is a classic highly-leveraged New York firm, which
had almost 5 associates per partner. When the boom was rolling in real estate and securitization deals
were coming along faster than one could count associates were working an extraordinary pace. This

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pushed the firm’s profits to the zenith of New York - and the rare air of the Himalayas may have been
disorienting. A reduction in leverage necessitated by a drop in utilization portends a significant fall off
in earnings. I would not be surprised to see net per partner profits fall by 20% or more this year
They are not the first professional firm or business who thought that a boom would
not end and as it reached its peak continued to dance as fast as it could looking for new laterals.
When the boom fell out of bed my hunch is that these associates saw their utilization drop from 125%
of standard budget to something far lower. All of the partners and associates who had jumped into the
deep end of the pool during bountiful times saw the water draining whirlpool like into a drain. Paul
Newman escaped in The Drowning Pool. But life in law firms doesn’t imitate the silver screen.
They would not be the first firm to fire associates before they fire partners. That’s a
traditional step among many firms. Indeed the more the profession has focused on immediate bottom
line dollars those who don’t bring in the business are often viewed as dispensable when times get
tough. What will be interesting is if this is followed by quiet departures of partners without business.
That in turn may leave the firm more vulnerable to raids to obtain high value laterals. If several major
players or a couple of major groups were to depart, Cadwalader could become a highly likely candidate
for merger / acquisition by another leading national firm.
To Cadwalader’s credit the severance is well above industry standard. And they told
the truth about what they were doing. For decades many firms who shed associates would dissemble
in the extreme. Some would deny associates were terminated. Others would claim sudden group
departures were merit based. Some would terminate lawyers and only offer them severance after the
lawyer signed a general release32 . From a P.R. standpoint they are probably wiser to take a large single
hit rather than to lose a dozen at a time over the course of a year. Richard Nixon’s lamentable bromide
about everyone getting their turn at the town pump may well be on the mark. Cadwalader’s moment
of pain will pass and be replaced by another lead story involving another large law firm. In the day of
the rapidly reloading 24 hour news cycle even conspicuous bad news fades away fairly quickly.
Perhaps their associates will have the same experience as those from Latham & Watkins
did in 1992. The Latham lawyers quickly found new firms in a terrible economy due in large part to
the firm standing behind them and acknowledging that their terminations had nothing to do with their
merit. Cadwalader earns several points for candor - and appears willing to take a short term hit in
recruiting by taking this step just before fall on campus interviews. Lawyers and firms are notoriously
impatient these days - and having a longer view is as admirable as it is unusual.
What will be the impact of this news on recruiting this Fall? First, it appears that
Cadwalader may suspend OCI at some schools for at least a year. This is not an extinction level event.
Investment banks have suspended recruiting during severe recessions and resumed it a year or two
later. Second those with offers from Cadwalader may explore the 3L market. The problem is that the
32
Som e took it to silly extremes. In 1988 a firm in Chicago terminated several partners. The Chicago
Daily Law Bulletin got wind of the story. This was before the internet or other e-tools. So the firm dispatched
messengers to news stands with orders to buy up as many copies of the Law Bulletin as could be found. This became
more difficult the next day when the story hit the Tribune.

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3L market nationally is weak. Third, in a few years they will have a doughnut hole in their seniority
ranks that will probably coincide with an economic recovery. This could cause them to go heavily into
the lateral market 3-5 years from now. Fourth, those who survive at Cadwalader may get better
experience than they would have received before because the ranks are smaller.
What Will Change this Fall - The fall recruiting season on campus will see many
changes from the 2008 season. Some will be modest; others will be substantial. As this report goes to
press, I’ll wager a pair of Michigan football tickets that the following will ensue -
A reduction in the number of invitations after campus interviews and a reduction in the
percentage of offers after call back interviews;
More careful management of the flow of offers - because of the economy and because of the 45
day rule;
Continued stealth layoffs by law firms - most of which will not hit the media - the layoffs will
spike toward year end as firms appraise their needs for 2010 look at full year performance
reports. Unless the economy receives an jolt of good news this seems like a foregone
conclusion;
A very tough year to be promoted to equity partner, anywhere - even though a single year of
partnership decisions has very little impact on any firm - law firms historically become very
conservative on promotions during a recession;
Less tolerance for slow starters in the associate ranks - associates who are slow out of the gate,
mistake prone, lacking in people skills, or perceived as less industrious should buy luggage
rather than furniture; and
A recognition that something has changed in litigation which will finally effect entry-level
hiring.
Understanding that students would like to believe that the equal protection clause
applies to law firm hiring - the fact is that there will be layers of consequences almost as complex as
a Viennese wedding cake.
For the top of the cake - the recession will have very little effect. Lots of invitations and many
offers. They will barely feel the recession at all. This will include students at the nation’s leading
schools who are on the law review, have high grades, and terrific personalities.
For the next tier down - and I know students want to know where the line is drawn, but it is too
subtle to draw with precision - there will be fewer invitations and offers than last year.
The next step down could be downright ugly if the student is not attentive. The third layer is
a strivers row of sorts - where students who normally could find ample options through OCI
will have to use direct mail as a cautionary tool.

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The fourth layer is grim. For the range of students who were on the OCI bubble last fall - the
same tranche may find no comfort on campus.
Student appetites, as always, won’t match the market. Students tend to gravitate toward
yesterday’s trend (private equity) or areas that are so small as to be completely unrealistic
except for a handful (appellate advocacy, media, entertainment, sports, ‘constitutional’ etc.33
Law firms will view the market opportunistically - and may be able to cherry pick students who
were beyond their reach a year before. This will irritate and disappoint students - but it is the
reality of a recession.
Wild Cards This Fall - Out of all of this uncertainty there a variety of wild cards
about the economy and law firms that could have an impact on hiring this Fall
The recession. Will it play itself out over the next 6-12 months or is the economy in for a multi-
year period of stagflation? If the stock markets recover, the dollar rises, energy prices fall will
that offer some momentary momentum and encouragement to law firms?
Will some law firms be opportunistic? Will others be too conservative? Will some finally adjust
to the softening of litigation nationally?
What will happen to inflation, the real estate mess, the global economy, the war in Iraq, federal
income taxes, and funding a national health care plan during a recession? Will something
happens that further tightens the screws on corporate lending? What happens if the recession
resembles the Japanese experience from 10-15 years ago - which took the better part of a
decade to work its way through that nation’s formerly robust economy?
What will happen if we have another 9-11 type event that has an immediate and severe impact
on the economy? Something far worse - a dirty bomb in a major U.S. could have incalculable
effects.
33
For decades students have had great interest in media/entertainment, white collar, and appellate
litigation. There are far more students interested than there are slots available. The premier appellate practice
groups can cherry-pick associates who were published law review editors, top 10% of the class at top 10 schools, with
Circuit or Supreme Court clerkships. The premier appellate practice groups in Chicago add 1-3 lawyers a year -
tops - and they all have Rolls Royce credentials. Media / entertainment litigation tends to have more depth in Los
Angeles and New York - far more media and entertainment properties have their headquarters on the Coasts than
in the Midwest. In addition the heyday of broadcast journalism generating boat loads of litigation has passed.
Most news outlets in m ost markets do very little investigative journalism and are rarely sued by targets of their work.
It’s a far different situation than when CBS 60 Minutes found itself a defendant almost continuously because of its
aggressive reporting. New media properties will have IP, soft IP, and transactional litigation. However the volume
of that work is far higher in Los Angeles and New York than it is in the W indy City. Happy talk, recipes, sports, fires,
magic drug of the day - that’s local news of the new millennium. W hite collar criminal work does not generate
enough entry-level work to provide opportunities for more than a handful of students interested in the area. Again -
there are strong practices in all of these areas in Chicago but the interest of law students is probably 20 times higher
than the actual need. In firms with “market” or “unassigned” systems understand students will compete with many
other new lawyers who would like to practice in the same area.

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The softness in litigation - recent reports show an increase in securities and related litigation
arising from the mortgage scandals - will this reverse the trend and cause a national up-tick in
big case / large firm litigation? Would an Obama administration result in more aggressive
federal enforcement in the antitrust, consumer product, environmental, and other areas that
tend to be somewhat more active during Democratic administrations with a resultant increase
in big firm litigation defending against litigation brought by the federal government and
others?
Lateral hiring seems to be picking up in some markets and some practice areas. Is this a
leading indicator of a recovery or just filling in gaps as and when they appear?
Will some firms declare a 1-2 year hiatus in recruiting? In light of the Cadwalader experience
some firms may be willing to entertain that idea in 2010-2011.
What happens to the continuing expansion consolidation with more and more offices of more
and more firms in more and more cities. How will the resulting uncertainty impact entry-level
and lateral hiring? Will there finally be a bubble burst that hits firms who have taken missteps
in the rampant race to grow too fast in too many places and too many practice areas?
The 45 Day Rule - Its Real Impact - NALP has promulgated a rule requiring law
firms who are members of NALP ( that excludes many mid-size and smaller firms) to keep offers to
2L students open for 45 days. After 45 days offers can expire if an extension of time is not requested
and receive. It is not the position of this author to comment on the genesis or objective of the rule.
What follows is simply a prediction of how the rule may evolve in practice. Forces independent of the
45 day rule have a far greater effect on the marketplace and the 45 day rule may well be subordinated
to forces beyond the control of the authors of the rule or the firms who are required to follow its terms.
A few possibilities -
The rule may collapse like a bad souffle if leading employers simply grant extensions across the
board. In a manner similar to the salary wars if leading Wall Street, Chicago, or California firms
abandon the rule - it simply may not matter.
The weak economy may cause a land rush of acceptances by students who don’t want to be the
last one on a bus when it leaves the station. It is entirely possible that firms may have more
acceptances than they plan and will notify those holding offers on November 1 that the summer
program is already fully subscribed. They may suggest students accept elsewhere.
Students will press to interview faster following campus interviews - and there may be a foot
race to obtain offers which students justifiably believe are harder to come by this Fall.
Law firms will exert greater discipline over granting offers - and will be more concerned about
yield spikes. A typical large law firm in Chicago will see 20-25% of its offers to 2L’s accepted.
If that number moves up just 5% - it can create a situation where the law firm has more
summer associates than it needs.

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Bottom line: firms will be willing to go short - rather than go long. They can always reach out in the
next year’s 3L market. .
What Should A Student do? - First, calm down and understand that law students
have walked through the valley of recessions before and emerged in the sunshine. Your marching
orders are clear select firms and cities strategically do not over invest in firms which are not
realistic face facts and have a background strategy beyond OCI if necessary prepare for interviews
as if your career depends on it, because it does never wear anything anyone remembers bring your
“A” game to all interviews . If your grades are lower than they should be - you will keep your head in
the game and improve them over the next two years. I have known many students who have been in
the bottom third of their class their 1L year and graduated cum laude or higher. Don’t check out of
school, don’t load your transcript with pass fail and non law courses. Don’t interview in cities where
you have no ties; this year more than any other, that just does not make sense. Don’t focus on practice
areas that are unrealistic or too small.
If you are an associate at a firm which is troubled or you believe that you
are vulnerable you should consult with 2-3 expert search firms in your
market immediately. Not two months from now but immediately.
Lateral Hiring In The Recession- It’s easy to say that the volume of lateral hiring
in a recession falls like a stone from the Leaning Tower of Pisa. The reality is considerably more
complex. Lateral hiring if partners with established practices is as strong as ever - and in some
respects stronger than it was in the boom as prosperous firms take advantage of a down market to
invest for the long term in attractive practice areas.
Associate lateral hiring is in a significant trough and will only recover when the
economic indicators are far stronger. The overall volume of lateral hiring of associates by AmLaw 100
firms has probably dropped 80-90% since the peak of the last boom. Lateral hiring in litigation has
fallen off 75% in the past four years - not because of the recession but because of fundamental changes
in the landscape of complex commercial litigation. Elite boutiques, and some smaller and mid-size
firms remain avid participants in the market. But the mega firms, by and large, are far less active than
they were in the mid 1990's. Exceptions to the trend include labor & employment litigation, patent
litigation, and the occasional lateral hire of a candidate with Rolls Royce (not Audi) credentials.
Please call to discuss the lateral hiring market. We are pleased to speak with law firms and lawyers at any
time about market conditions and offer an assessment of a potential search or the marketability of a
particular candidate. The market changes rapidly and sometimes unexpectedly. These assessments are
made as of August 20, 2009 and pertain to the Chicago market. Conditions vary widely from city to city and
month to month. In the Chicago market approximately one third of the firms active in lateral hiring list
some of their lateral opportunities at their website. This means that most opportunities are not listed
publicly. The best search firms reach far beyond what is listed on the ‘net and often have assignments that
are not disclosed to the market. Any search firm works with only a slice of the firms in the market because
it cannot solicit lawyers from firms where it places lawyers. Discuss your interests and the focus of your
search firm with your recruiter carefully. Where we are not the right search firm to work with a law firm
client or a candidate we are pleased to refer you to exceptional firms in Chicago or any other major market.

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During a recession law firms are more careful and deliberate about lateral hiring
decisions. There is a renewed significance placed on law school, grades, and the strength and depth
of the lawyer’s experience. Law firms also are more selective about the level of experience they are
seeking - if they want someone in the Class of 2005, that’s what they probably want. Many firms put
candidates through more rounds of interviews than they did a year ago. One of the toughest questions
for a potential lateral hire is when to make the move. For those associates currently 2-5 years out of
school this should be their peak period of mobility. Regrettably they are “coming of age” as laterals
when the market is frankly very weak. Typically associates are most mobile 2-4 years out of school.
Associates with less than two years experience are difficult to place at any time - particularly in a
recession. Unless the associate has truly exceptional credentials and experience, it is very difficult to
place a lateral associate in a mid-size or large law firm with 5 or more years of experience. The
associate who tarries risks forfeiting their window of peak mobility. When the economy recovers lateral
hiring, as always, will spike as law firms seek to fill the doughnut hole created by the recession. This
has happened after every recession for the past thirty-five years. The challenge for today’s members
of the Classes of 2004-2007 is whether the recovery will occur while the window of mobility is still
open. It’s a tough choice with no easy answer.
For junior associates with less than 2 years experience the overall market is weak. The
market for junior laterals is spotty and tissue thin. At the 0-1 year level firms will wait for a new
graduate rather than dip their toe in the lateral market. At the 2 year level – litigation is as quiet as a
graveyard at midnight – there is some spotty hiring by elite boutiques but there is a grotesque
imbalance between supply and demand. At the 2 year level placeable laterals must have stellar
academics, very strong deal or case lists, and sparkling personal skills. Strong candidates from Top 10
and Top 20 schools are still placeable in this market but they must be impressive in person and have
the full basket of intangible skills that employers seek.
At the 2-5 year level, mobility is practice area specific. Litigation remains weak – with
the exception of a couple of general practice firms and some mid-size and boutique. A placeable lateral
in litigation must have very strong experience (arguing dispositive motions in complex cases, taking
and defending meaningful depositions, witness experience in court or in hearings, and substantive
experience in complex cases – mundane experience does not cut it. There is spotty but increasing
activity in corporate in the classes of 2003-2005 – even in private equity – for firms trying to fill holes
in the ranks. Labor and employment and tax specialty areas are surprisingly active. IP (patent side)
remains strong / Non patent IP has some activity among major firms, boutiques, and specialty firms.
There is also occasional activity in global outsourcing/technology.
The lateral market for associates at the 6+ year level is weak. Unless the associate has
strong academics and outstanding practical experience they are not placeable. Associates at this level
will probably have to take a haircut on seniority and compensation because they are north of the sweet
spot in lateral hiring. Strong academics (or great school) without great experience is a non-starter.
Thus a litigator without significant 1st/2d chair responsibility on major matters for major clients is
simply not placeable. Firms hiring in this area will only do so because they have an un-fillable hole in
the ranks +/- 2 years in seniority. There is no speculative hiring. The recession has caused a number
of unusual trends in the market - that a broker might call anomalies - but those in the search firm
world find interesting.

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Exceptional candidates from leading firms ‘test’ the market, interview extensively, absorb
tremendous amounts of time from premier large firms and boutiques and then ultimately
decide to stay put. This drives firms wild. What it does to search firms is unprintable. My
hunch is that the best candidates are curious but cautious to the point of being risk averse.
Nervous candidates work too many angles for their own good – selecting search firms without
performing due diligence and finding their resume has been submitted to the wrong firms at
the wrong time for the wrong reason.
In their rush to receive part of a bounty a friend gets or a “rebate” or “kickback” from a net
based search firm candidates will put their resume out without having a trained eye review it
for form and content and for a realistic determination about what can be done in the market.
Partner Lateral Hiring - The driving force in lateral hiring is expansion into new
markets by multi-office national law firms. Thirty years ago, most large national firms had one office -
and perhaps a small outpost in Washington, D.C. In 1976 most firms had one dominant office and
an outpost in Washington or perhaps one other city. Today multi-city firms are a fact of life. The five
200+ offices in 1976 were the New York offices of Shearman & Sterling and White & Case and the
Houston offices of Baker & Botts, Vinson & Elkins, and Fulbright & Jaworski. Today, many have
several offices with more than 200 lawyers. Today 225 offices have more than 200 lawyers,
and more than 400 have more than 100 lawyers. In that charming pre-fax, pre-FedEx,
Selectric-driven era the practice was national in name but primitive in its execution. In the past 5-10
years firms have scrambled to establish a national presence in mega, large, and mid-size markets.
The national office expansion phenomenon may be accelerating too fast for its own
good. Some of the moves into unfamiliar markets seem to resemble the race in the computer, telecom,
or airline industry to grab as fast as you can and sort it out later. Whatever the merits of the decisions,
they are a fact of life. Chicago is a typical example. Fifteen years ago only four national firms had a
meaningful presence in the Windy City (Jones Day / Latham & Watkins, Skadden, Arps and Foley &
Lardner). Today the number is 65. This results in a spike of lateral moves at the partner and associate
level that is likely to continue - and possibly accelerate. Today, laterals often arrive with small or large
groups of lawyers typically led by partners with portable client relationships. Sometimes an avalanche
of laterals must be assimilated or integrated in the event of a merger, acquisition, or other
combination. The pace can be frenetic.
In the wake of the closing of sizeable firms in many major markets, e.g., Brobeck / Testa
Hurwitz / Altheimer & Gray / Jenkens & Gilchrist / Heller Ehrman / Thacher Proffitt - firms move
aggressively and creatively to close quickly with leading prospects. A partner with limited business
is placeable only when there is a hole in the firm’s ranks and the firm has the ability to keep the
partner busy with existing business. There are rare exceptions to this rule – and they fall under people
with Rolls Royce experience who are “trophy hires” Other exceptions include areas where the firm
wishes to invest and believes it can capture additional high value business from existing clients (e.g.,
patent side intellectual property litigation). Partners without business are sometimes placeable at
national firms who are rounding out their new office – but that is the exception – not the rule. During
a recession most firms are risk averse to adding partners without substantial business.

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Lateral partners with substantial business remain highly mobile. Most firms are seeking
to add partners in a variety of areas including, surprisingly, private equity, real estate, various
corporate sub specialties, patent side IP litigation, health care, to name only a few. A variety of firms
are in the market including famous mega firms, new entrants from other cities - whether the super
profitable AmLaw 50 firms, other AmLaw 200 firms, “super regional” firms, mid-size firms with
revenue to invest in expansion, etc. A soft market presents opportunities for firms who have the
stomach and wallet to invest for the long-term. The benchmarks for portable business vary depending
on the metrics of the targeted firms – some firms look for $3-5 million or more in business but many
firms with lower profits have lower thresholds. Many law firms eager to improve their ethnic and
gender diversity numbers in their partnership ranks will hire lateral partners without substantial
portable business provided that their credentials and experience is sufficiently strong that their skills
can be marketed to new and existing clients.
Practice in 203334 I’ll offer the following predictions about how law firm’s will evolve
in the next twenty five years - check back with me then and let’s see how accurate they prove to be -
Firms will still go to campus to interview and they will still have summer
programs. Even with all of the new video and technical toys 1:1 interviewing will remain as
important as it is today just as 1:1 in person presentations to clients will remain important.
Firms will still struggle to find talent - because new human capital is a limited resource. The
quality of law students will increase as the number of women and minorities in the
profession increases as more students are drawn to a profession without licensing walls
as the interdisciplinary nature of law becomes a more attractive option to students who in
earlier eras might have chosen a career in business.
Most large firms will still charge some of their work by the hour. Average hours will
rise 10-15% from current levels. Work hoarding, time exaggeration, and related problems will
not go away.
Progress will be made on diversity - but it will be slow and steady, not dramatic and
universal. The percentage of women equity partners in large firms will creep slowly toward the
25% mark but will not reach 30 percent. Progress will be made on minority hiring and
retention but it will be slow and difficult for many reasons. The definition of minority will
evolve as certain groups are assimilated into American professional culture. A new generation
of immigrants often overlooked by pundits will form the cornerstone of discrimination/
diversity issues in the next thirty years. Immigrants from the Mid East, persons from Islamic
states, and persons from the sub continent of Asia will form an increasing part of the pool of
minorities. Firms will struggle in good faith to make progress - but they will stumble along the
way. There are no quick fixes in this field - just tough step by step efforts.
Positions such as managing partner, hiring partner, and other operational

positions will become permanent international positions in most leading firms.
34
For a copy of my 1992 and 2000 predictions, please write or call. Many of the guesses were on the
money - some over the rainbow.

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Firms will evolve into pyramid organizations resembling corporations with layers of partners -
in a manner similar to management consulting and accounting firms.
First in the United Kingdom, second in Europe, and then in the United States law
firms will go public. It will not be pretty. Key players will cash out and leave some firms.
Others will prove themselves to be very poor at running the type of company they advise. The
current Dean Witter / Morgan Stanley experience and other hoary tales will be re-examined
as law firms become $10 billion public companies. In a bubble boom in thirty years law firms
will rush to go public and several partners will be convicted for insider trading violations
involving stock in their own law firms.
Large firms will institutionalize and substantially expand their training and
development of lawyers. They will have national training centers where lawyers spend 20-
30% of their time during their first five years learning the tools which are necessary to succeed
including oral presentation skills negotiation trial skills financial analysis project
management marketing. These universities without walls will use distinguished faculty
drawn from leading businesses and business schools. Some firms will collaborate and
cooperate on funding these centers. This will explode into a CLE industry which dwarfs today's
offerings.
Lawyers will still argue about billing credit, power, and minutiae but progress
will have been made in developing systems to reward real contributions.
The Supreme Court will find attorney licensing to be a violation of the antitrust
laws. Lawyers will be accredited state by state - in a manner similar to board certification but
lawyers will be free to practice in areas such as management consulting - and non-lawyers
without a J.D. will hang out their shingles in what will turn into a multi layered free for all.
The starting salary will be $600,000 by 2033. The salary derby will become more
nauseating because large law firms in a dozen markets will pay the same salary in each of their
offices. Their will be wailing and threats to not go along, but it will be same old same old all
over again.
Law schools will merge, open campuses overseas and offer classroom instruction
over the internet. This phenomenon will occur slowly but will gain traction when over a
three year period three private schools in the top 10 form alliances and then merge with
famous law schools elsewhere in the United States and overseas. If this seems too
revolutionary - understand that Yale came close to changing its name to Sterling University in
the early 20th century when Shearman & Sterling’s founder made a major gift to Yale
University.
In 2015 a law firm will run a 2 minute television advertisement during the Super
Bowl. It will be roundly criticized by smug lawyers in other firms. The following year two other
firms will follows suit. By 2020 firms will advertise regularly on cable and network news for
the financial community.

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Mandatory retirement will be at age 55 except for partners with substantial

practices or truly unique professional skills. Firms will attempt to induce partners
without business to retire earlier rather than later. This will be the knife fight of the new
century - the bulge bracket of today's 35-55 year old partners will soon be ripe for retirement.
And when the next recession hits look for firms to be aggressive on this issue. The bulging
boomer bracket won't go away quietly. Look for litigation by former partners against their
firms on forced retirement and on benefit issues.
Boutique professional firms will still run rings around the goliaths like the Marines
lapping the Army. They will compete on rates, service, accessibility and technology. They will
not go to campus and will continue to cherry pick top talent from larger firms at the 2-5 year
level.
Law firms will hire students directly from college campuses - to by pass the
competitive pressures of on campus recruiting. Some will offer to pay students’ law
school tuition and expenses in exchange for a commitment to practice with the firm for five
years. This will drive the law schools to distraction but it will quickly become a model for
selective pre-emptive recruiting of the best students.
Law schools will compete for faculty talent and students and at some top schools
one will be able to receive a degree without a physical presence on the campus.
Law schools will affiliate into groups for purposes of marketing and teaching. A major
private east coast university will merge with a peer in California. Law school will become
elastic with even premier schools offering 2 or 4 year programs with more fine tuning beyond
the traditional course progressions offered today. Universities will continue to resist the
notion of full integration of interdisciplinary programs in law, business, and medicine because
of the predictable bragging rights and turf fighting.
A group of law schools will be sued in a class action brought by a disgruntled

student who claims that she was fraudulently induced to attend law school by
false or misleading reports about placement information. Several tier III and IV law
schools will close. In the course of this class action, it will be established that more than 10
percent of the law schools have submitted false or misleading placement information to U.S.
News and other sources to spike their rankings and attract applicants. The class action will be
settled with a substantial damages payment and the establishment of a system of random
audits of reported placement data. U.S. News will still have its rankings and most of the top
20 will stay the same.
A major national law firm will elect its first non lawyer CEO. She will have served
in marketing and finance functions and will participate in client marketing. Her income will
be $5,000,000 per year.
Several firms will tinker with partnership - adding a 1-2 years to the track(s), creating
additional tiers of partners, raising capital contribution requirements, and making it far more
difficult to progress from non-equity to equity partner. Partner attrition will increase. Still it

will not be surprising for firms to lose 8-10 percent of its partners in a year as a result - above
and beyond normal retirement and departure patterns.
Two firms will implode because of exaggerated time scandals. It will also send a shock wave
through the profession that will finally cause firms to transition from hourly rates to a system
that is based on other factors. After a gut wrenching period of adjustment, most large law
firms will emerge more profitable than ever - but with fundamentally changed approaches to
promotion, marketing, and servicing clients.
Mergers will continue but the pace and number will be slower than expected.
Some mergers will come apart at the seams as a result of defections, debates about culture, and
battles about profit allocation. Starting salaries will rise again in 2015-2020 during the next
great boom period. By 2030 starting salaries for new lawyers at large firms in major markets
will be over $375,000. Law school tuition will be $90,000 and many students will graduate
$300,000 in debt35.
Lawyers will carry a revolutionary device in their pocket - a universal integrated

wireless device that serves as telephone, hard drive, contact manager, video and audio
recorder, etc. I t will replace all of the electronic toys that we have today - battery life, of course
will still be an issue, but a combination of fuel cell and solar cell technology will make it
possible to use this one device constantly for a week. It will be smaller than an I-pod, have
voice recognition capabilities, GPS tracking and mapping capabilities, and security that
permits it to be used only by the person whose Iris and fingerprint match the data stored in the
device. It will sell for $499 in current dollars. It will take the place of credit cards, toll booth
readers, and other payment mechanisms. It will, of course have battery life issues.
The Cubs will win consecutive World Series played in the Wrigley Dome located in Arlington
Park. Mike Ditka will come out retirement at 85 to lead the Bears back to Super Bowl glory.
Tiger Woods will win the Masters at the age of 59 using a driver manufactured out of materials
mined on Mars. His reconstructed knees will be made out of the same material. Phil Mickelson
will finish second.
Law Firm Management Issues Students Should Understand
Why must you understand employers? It is as simple as knowing your customer. Have you ever had
the experience of having someone trying to sell you something, intently parading their brochures and
extolling the virtues of their product without once trying to understand your needs, your background,
and your environment? That is precisely what happens with most law students. They devote 90% of
their energy to analyzing their own resume, cover letters, and concerns without first trying to
understand the needs of their customer --- the firm they hope will buy their product. The magic
language of private law firms seems opaque and mysterious. It is rather straightforward but the first
time you hear about billings, collections, practice groups, partners, limited partners, managing
partners, realization, leverage, and all the rest it can be daunting. This foreign language is no tougher
to master than rudimentary computer software.
35
The cost of law school education has risen at the same pace as the starting salaries at leading national firms.
The student “budget” in 1974 was $7,000. Today it is more than $50,000 per year - an increase of 7.27% per year.

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A. The Basic Structure —
Firms are traditionally organized as partnerships. They are owned by their partners whose fractional
interest in the firm is equivalent to the number of "shares" or partnership "points" that they own. The
partnership vehicle is used for many reasons, some historical, others tax driven. The partners
contribute the capital (cash) to run day-to-day operations and fund and long-term capital investments
such as construction, computer equipment, opening branch offices and the like. They are liable for the
firm's obligations, leaseholds and bank debt.
What is the difference between partners and associates? (This brings to mind my
brother in law Ed's comment when I was 7 years old and asked him what the difference was between
Vanilla and French Vanilla as I peered over the Baskin Robbins' counter. His memorable answer - "10
cents.") Associates are employees of the business. They are paid a salary plus a bonus and fringe
benefits. As associates they do not own the business and do not contribute capital.
1. How are fees set, charged, and collected? — Most firms charge for their services by
the hour. Hourly rates vary according to what the market will bear. Large firms in large cities charge
from $125-400 per hour. In smaller cities the levels are lower and the ranges narrower. Most clients
receive a bill for services each month. The bill includes a computer print out showing all activity for
the month broken down by lawyer and time. In addition, the out of pocket costs of the law firm are
passed along, including copying, court reporters, travel, overtime, and computerized research. Some
firms try to mark up their costs for these items and pass that along to clients, but most have not been
successful in doing so. Computer systems track internal use of all out of pocket expenses. You will key
in a client number when you dial a long distance call and key in a client number on the copying
machine so these costs can be captured.
Most clients pay their bills in a regular cycle running from 30-90 days after the bill is
received. Thus a firm is not paid for its work until 60-120 days after the work is done. Most firms will
be able to collect 90% or more of the bills that they render. If they cannot, the bill is either "written off"
or referred for collection. It is terribly important for firms to be efficient in what they charge, bill, and
collect. If bills are not paid, or time is accumulated that is unreasonable and cannot be charged, the
profits will plummet. For example, a firm that collects 95% of its bills and does so in an average of 50
days, will be far more profitable than a firm that collects only 90% of its bills and averages 75 days
from billing to collection. The same partner might earn 20% less in the second firm.
2. The Economic Machine — Most firms, whether in small or large cities, budget an
expected number of client hours per lawyer per year. The numbers vary, but normal ranges will be
1,800-2,200. Based on these assumptions, and historical patterns on billing and collection a firm can
budget its revenue and profitability. The major costs for a law firm are attorney compensation, fringe
benefits, staff compensation and fringe benefits, occupancy (rent and related), malpractice and other
insurance, computer systems, libraries, marketing, and equipment. Many costs are rising far faster
than firms' abilities to raise rates. Thus, firms face tremendous pressures to cut costs and mange their
dollars in order to maximize partner income. A point to ponder — in a major city the cost per attorney
to fund a typical health care plan is currently $2-3,000 for individuals and $10-15,000 for families.
If and when the vaunted health care plan passes, these costs will rise. When they do, the impact on law

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firms will be enormous. Remember the firm covers the health care costs of partners, associates, and
staff.
3. How are associates paid? — For associates the story begins with a base salary for new
associates. Typically lawyers remain associates for 7-10 years until they are considered for promotion
to partner. The base salary for new associates will be the same for all entering lawyers. Base salaries
range from the mid 30's for smaller firms in smaller cities to the mid 80's for new associates in New
York. As associates progress up the line they are awarded increases or bonuses that are typically driven
by evaluations, number of client hours charged, and amount of business produced for the firm. The
latter figure is only important in senior associate years in some firms. In most firms the compensation
engine is driven by evaluations and hours. Plain and simple. Most firms will vary compensation within
a given law school graduation class based on performance.
4. How Are Partners Paid? — Partners divide the net profits of the firm. Their share of
the profits is set by the management or compensation committee. Their share depends on many
factors but typically the amount of fees they generate (billings and collections) and their chargeable
hours play the largest role. Partners receive a modest draw during the course of the fiscal year. In an
11 month period they might receive 30-35% of their total income. The rest is divided and distributed
once the fiscal year concludes. Most firms collect a substantial percentage of their income in the last
two or three months of the fiscal year and do not know for certain what their incomes will be until the
bell rings on the last day of the fiscal year. The last month of the year is a frantic rush to bill and collect.
You will read a lot in the popular press about lawyers' incomes. Much of it is wildly inaccurate or so
superficial that it is meaningless. The following are offered to give you the guidance you need when
you try to understand what makes a firm tick:
There is usually only a small difference between the earnings of a senior associate and a junior
partner.
New partners contribute to the capital of the firm. This contribution can be quite substantial.
It is not ritualistic hazing or a rite of passage---it is akin to buying stock in the business. The
investment does not yield dividends per se and is returned when a partner retires, withdraws,
or dies.
Many firms have two tiers of partners. The junior tier is called limited, non equity or income
partner. This historical accident has existed in many firms in the Midwest for more than 50
years. This junior partner has a limited role in firm management and only an indirect stake in
the firm's profits. They are typically paid a draw (income) plus a discretionary bonus at the end
of the year. The rules vary widely from firm to firm. At many this is a way station along the
road to senior partner. At others it is a dead end where further promotion is highly unlikely.
Promotion to junior partner usually occurs at the 6-9 year point. Promotion to equity partner
usually takes place at the 9-13 year point.

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Among equity partners the compensation range can be quite substantial. It is not unheard of
for the most senior equity partner to earn 10-12 times as much as the newest partner. In most
firms the range is in the 5-8:1 range.
The range of compensation from first year associate to senior partner might be 6:1 in small
firms in a smaller city. In some large firms in large cities the disparity is 30:1.
B. How Are Firms Managed?
A law partnership is a curious and fragile beast It is not a corporation, though it

resembles one in some organizational sense. It is not an idyllic structure where all partners contribute
to the business and have an equal voice in its decisions. It is not a latter day Athenian democracy where
the partners gather in an amphitheater or conference center to vote on major issues. In most firms,
there are few formal partners' meetings and the firm votes as a body only rarely on issues such as
admissions or expulsions. Most votes are pro forma and follow the guidance and recommendations
of the governing partners.
A partnership consists of individual partners who are fiercely independent, assertive

professionals. They view themselves as connected to the firm but not subordinate to their partners.
One managing partner of a leading Los Angeles firm compared his efforts to trying to herd kittens. A
leader of the firm does not command but sets an example. Many times his efforts will be stymied by
the inertia and intransigence of other partners who will not yield to his will.
Like all other organizations, whether athletic, fraternal, social, or legal, it is populated
by human beings who respond to stimuli, form coalitions, squabble, and while fighting busily behind
the castle walls defend themselves against all forms of outside attack. Perhaps the most apt
comparison is to Norman feudalism. I'll leave that to the scholars.
Think of the ways that large businesses are organized. A corporation will have divisions
that sell particular products. Or, it may be organized along geographic lines. Some corporations
reorganize more often than a Presidential Cabinet. Other stick with the same structure. But the
important fact is that the structure is designed to manage people and deliver a service. And, labels to
the outside world may be nothing more than a marketing device that are not necessarily consistent
with internal reality.
1. What Are All These Committees? Most firms are governed by a group of partners
who will have a name like the Executive, Management, or Operations Committee. They are roughly
comparable to a corporate Board of Directors or Executive Committee. They are usually selected by
the partners in annual elections for terms of varying length. In some more Napoleonic firms, the
committees are self perpetuating. If you wondered, this is where the power lies. The members usually
include the partners with the largest portfolios of business or the partners with a real gift for
management.
The governing committees are not really that mysterious. They meet periodically to
address the major ongoing business issues of the firm --- whether it is signing a new lease, electing new

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partners, setting compensation, planning expansions, contractions, or adding new

offices/departments. In addition the firm has a range of operating committees with discrete
responsibilities —
Recruiting Compensation Marketing
Technology Partnership Development
Pro Bono Finance(Billing & Collection) Ethics & Conflicts
Library Services Opinion Letters Audit
The members of these committees will include younger and older partners from throughout the firm.
They may be selected by the committee chair or by the management of the firm. Younger partners are
more likely to be found on the committees in the left hand column; older partners dominate the more
substantial committees of the firm.
2. What is the Difference Between A Department, Practice Group, Cluster or Team? —

All of this sounds so mysterious to students. Understanding this requires you to consider the reasons
why organizational units are established by law firms. The internal reasons are to manage people. The
external reason is to sell a product to a customer. Thus a firm may create all manner of groups for
purposes of promoting services to the public. These groups may have little, if anything to do with how
the law firm is organized internally. In fact they may not even exist internally. Thirty years ago most
firms were divided into a few departments:
Litigation Real Estate Estate Planning

Corporate Tax Banking
As clients demanded specialized services and firms grew so too did practice groups and departments.
A modern firm might include the following groups —
Litigation Corporate Taxation
Environmental Commercial Estate Planning
Intellectual Property Banking Employee Benefits ESOP
Labor/Employment Bankruptcy Govt & Trade Ass'n
International Public Finance
The late 80's and 90's witnessed an explosion in law firm marketing. Many cosmetic ad hoc groups
were created and sold to clients as an indication of how a firm could handle specialized needs. Thus
as a student you may see a firm with three basic areas (litigation, tax, corporate) and a dozen other sub
groupings as well as myriad specialty groups. Don't be confused. Most of the titles are window dressing
for clients, not operating departments of any significance to new lawyers. Some sort of record must
have been set by one top 50 firm that purports to have more than 60 different groups in a firm of 400
lawyers.
3. How Is Work Distributed to Younger Lawyers? — Several systems exist. Some firms
assign lawyers directly to a department. A few rotate lawyers through the firm for 1-2 years and then
assign lawyers to specialty areas. Still others have an open assignment system where lawyers are

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theoretically available to partners throughout the firm. The struggle for firms is to develop lawyers
with valuable skills and to meet the rapidly changing staffing needs of a firm. Some new lawyers want
to specialize immediately; others who are undecided want to dabble, sample, or rotate. As a practical
matter, the priority in the mid 90's is for immediate productivity and profitability. As a summer
associate and young associate your assignments will come from partners. Over time you will gravitate
towards particular partners and clients for whom you do substantial amounts of work. Students who
display indifference about their practice interests put themselves at risk. Firms no longer have the
tolerance or interest in cultivating latter day Renaissance persons who want to rotate, dabble, sample,
and decide. It is not economic to let students wander the vineyard until they find the grape they prefer.
Clients want experts, specialists, and lawyers who can answer questions and solve problems, not
lawyers who are being educated at the client's expense.
4. How are associates evaluated? — evaluated every 6 or 12 months. While the systems
vary, the process usually includes the following steps:
Written comments are solicited from all partners with whom you work;
Oral comments are given by partners at department meetings;
A consensus is reached at a departmental level as to how you are progressing and whether you
should be promote, terminated, and how your compensation should be changed.
Department recommendations are reviewed by a firm wide Compensation or Management

Committee. Once the Compensation or Management committees have approved the evaluation
recommendations and set compensation firm wide, a partner meets with each lawyer to review
their evaluation.
Evaluations are an imperfect mechanism. Many of America's toughest lawyers find it impossible to sit
down with colleagues and give a candid, negative review. Because of the vagaries of the process and
the imperfections of the lawyers delivering evaluations, the results are never perfect. Every year
lawyers are astounded or mystified by what they view as confusing, vague, or unjustifiably negative
reviews. In most states associates have a statutory right to inspect their personnel review files. Most
associates do not know that and those that do are reluctant to exercise the right for fear of retribution.
Frankly, many firms actively discourage lawyers from exercising this right. This habit is likely to
change in the next decade. In all too many instances the written file does not compare neatly and
accurately with the oral reviews that are given. I do not recommend that you force the issue; the
statutory right notwithstanding, you run a meaningful risk of retribution if you press to see your file.
And, the file is likely to be uninformative at best and confusing at worst. The likelihood of actionable
smoking guns lurking within is remote.
5. What Do Firms Want in New Associates? — The temptation is almost irresistible to

think that law firms focus only on grades, grades, and grades. The truth is considerably more complex.
Thirty years ago, when law firms were far smaller many firms could restrict their hiring to a handful
of schools and look only at the top slice of students at those schools. Today law firms across the

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country must be more open minded because their hiring needs have grown exponentially. Here are the
key factors firms look for in evaluating candidates —
Law School and college grades
Quality of law school and college
Activities which indicate leadership, writing/speaking ability, management skills or capacity

for productive hard work
Overall personal presentation / oral communication skills / presence
Personality - intangibles and a hunch about how you will fit in
An uninterrupted track record of hard work and accomplishment
Specialized interests or skills that match those of the firm (e.g., a background in chemical
engineering for intellectual property lawyers)
Team Player and other inestimable qualities that indicate long term success and the prospect
of someone who will work well with clients and develop client relationships
While students remain convinced that most firms have absolute grade cutoffs that preclude
consideration of students whose grades fall below that level, the reality is different. Every day firms
across the country look past rigid guidelines to hire candidates who have special skills that indicate
success even though their GPA is not Brandeis-like. The question for most students is how to package,
sell, and present the other skills beyond the GPA. More on that later. In fact, most hiring partners take
special pride in hiring the non traditional candidate who proves to be successful. Anyone with a crayon
and a yellow paid can cross out candidates whose GPA falls below A-. It takes excellent judgment by
a hiring partner to find and land the candidate with lower grades who is nevertheless an outstanding
lawyer.
6. Why Do Associates Succeed and Fail? This is not the ultimate metaphysical
question. The answer is surprisingly straightforward. Few lawyers are terminated because they are not
smart enough. The most common reasons are:
Poor written and oral communication — amazingly some lawyers graduate without the
ability to write clearly and efficiently. An astounding percentage can write capably but
cannot speak with any more confidence than a 6th grader.

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Lack of productivity --- either low chargeable hours or high hours that cannot be charged
through to a client. When margins are narrowing, every hour must be chargeable and
collectible. Any time that falls short is lost profits.
Late assignments -- an astounding but common flaw among poor performing associates
who are always late or whose disorganization has a negative effect on clients & partners
A generally poor attitude about life and the law that shows itself in a lack of dedication to
the firm.
Poor client service skills — something as simple as returning calls or treating junior
employees at the client with respect or the more common problem of giving fuzzy advice
to clients who want answers.
Inability to work well with partners, associates, clients and staff, adversaries, and the bench
Lack of imaginative application of legal skills — many associates never progress beyond
solving the one narrow problem they have been given to a pro-active problem solver who
sees all aspects of an assignment and wants to understand and deal with the big picture.
Failure to progress from the skills expected of a new lawyer (basic research and analysis)
to the skills expected of a partner (management, problem solving, client management, and
firm management)
C. Hours - The Real (And Tough) Story
Chargeable hours for associates at leading firms are rising. The once typical expectation of 1,900 hours
a year has nudged north to 2,000-2,100. It is an inevitable consequence of the dramatic increases in
compensation. Most firms have chargeable hour guidelines (quotas). They establish a performance
floor for compensation purposes. If your hours fall below the floor, your compensation and future
are in trouble. The expectations of firms are not indentured servitude. Students are concerned about
hours. So are firms. You will hear anecdotes and twice told tales about monstrous hours. You will hear
that Smith & Jones is a sweatshop, but that Arnold and Baker is a laid back place. Most lawyers are
hard working by nature and will work hard no matter where they practice
You will work many hours beyond client hours to manage the practice, be trained and
to train others, stay current in your field, market, and manage the firm. Don't assume that smaller
firms or smaller cities automatically mean fewer hours. The differences among firms' expectations

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have never been as great as students believe (and hope). In the wake of the 2000 compensation
avalanche, expectations on chargeable hours changed forever. Do not assume that size has a direct
relationship to chargeable hours.
And, do not assume that third hand hearsay about “kinder, gentler” firm ABC has any
bearing today. However, you should also not assume that a premier mega-firm is hostile,
impersonal, or any more demanding than its somewhat smaller distant cousins. Firms that pay at
the top (no matter how large) have comparable expectations. The following table translates annual
chargeable hour totals into daily averages. It assumes(for the base case 2,000 hours) that the associate
takes 3 weeks of vacation annually 2 weeks of holidays or other days off and works 1 Saturday
2 weekends a month. As the hour level rises the total numbers of days worked increase. The table also
addresses efficiency issues. No one can bill all the time they work. A fair estimate is 70-80% efficiency.
TOTAL HOURS AT VARIOUS EFFICIENCY AND WORK LEVELS

CLIENT DAILY OFFICE HOURS @ VARIOUS EFFICIENCY LEVELS
HOURS DAYS WORKED ANNUALLY 70% 75% 80%
2,000 250 11.4 10.7 10.0
2,100 260 11.5 10.8 10.1
2,250 270 11.9 11.1 10.4
2,350 280 12.0 11.2 10.5
2,500 285 12.5 11.7 11.0
Typical associate chargeable hours in mega firms and large firms are 2,000-2,100 per year. However,
the typical associate who is “in the hunt” for partnership - an ambitious-prime-time-player - likely
to bill 2,300-2,400 hours per year.. Typical partner hours for the same firms are at the same level
— and when one includes the time that partners spend developing business, managing clients, and
administering the firm their total time is typically higher than total time for associates. The message
for students — when one becomes a partner, one will work harder. And the best will work harder
than that. Tough but true facts that students should understand before they dip their toes in the
professional pond of private practice. Remember, you must subtract from the total time in the office
time which is billed to firm or administrative accounts (training, recruiting, CLE, etc.) lunch
and any other time which is not properly chargeable to a client. Even the best, hardest working and
most focused lawyer can’t bill more than 80-85 percent of their time in the office. It’s just not possible.
Interestingly the battle to do so does not get easier with age, because as you become more senior your
administrative distractions (all of the above plus the development of clients and the management of
the law firm) become greater.
Students are concerned about hours. So are firms. You will hear anecdotes and twice
told tales about monstrous hours. You will hear that Smith & Jones is a sweatshop, but that Arnold
and Baker is a laid back place. Most lawyers are hard working by nature and will work hard no
matter where they practice. You will work many hours beyond client hours to manage the practice,
be trained and to train others, stay current in your field, market, and manage the firm. Don't assume
that smaller firm or smaller cities automatically means fewer hours. My peers in firms in San

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Francisco, New York, L.A., Chicago, Topeka, and Albuquerque all work about the same number of total
hours.
If you want an adventure, join the Navy. If you want short days, leave the law. It's a
demanding profession and will become more so in the next century. Every year brings stories of
lawyers abusing the chargeable hour. What does this mean? Any system that rewards people for hours
billed will encourage some people to abuse the system. Ironically, when work is slow, some lawyers
panic and pad their hours. Senior lawyers may hoard work to protect their own hours without regard
to whether the work should be done by junior lawyers at a lower rate (cheaper) for the client. You will
read occasional stories about remarkable hours --- e.g., a Chicago lawyer who billed 5,500 hours.
That's not the real story. The real story is mild padding ---If 50% of a firm's lawyers add .50-.75 hours
per day to their time records, then 8-15% of the partners' net profits come from false time entries. If
your compensation is tied to hours, you may round up rather than round down. It is as if you were
allowed to grade yourself in law school. It's a disturbing problem that many lawyers don't want to
acknowledge.
One of the most frequent subjects of discussion among students is chargeable hours -
what firms expect, what life is really like, and whether they will be able to tolerate the demands of
private practice. You are drowned by information, much of it wildly inaccurate, about life inside mega
firms. No subject is discussed more often and no subject is less well understood. It is not a popular
discussion for candidate conversation during the recruiting blitz except for the occasional criticism of
another firm for its “sweat shop hours.” But as the season draws to a close the following observations
are worth making
The price to be paid for high compensation in slow economic times is high expectations
and hard work. That is true in mid-size and large law firms nationally. It is the predictable outcome
of the 50 percent increase in associate compensation which came just before the e-commerce bubble
burst in mid-2000. Dante does not edit the news beat for law firms. Hours increases, while
meaningful, have not been enormous. Earning $125,000-250,000 annually from your 1st through your
7th year out of school for 2,000-2,300 hours of work does note violate the 13th Amendment.
The average hours of most mega firms are surprisingly close together year in and year
out and have risen somewhat since the March 2000 explosion in compensation but not as much as
you may fear or assume. In some firms, partner hours remain equivalent or higher (client hours). In
many "life style" firms where mid-size meant warm and fuzzy and comfortable - hours are rising
toward the mega firms because of their decision (forced or voluntary) to match compensation and their
well-founded fear that they will be cherry-picked of good partners by mega firms who can pay more.
Blame Adam Smith, Bob Gunderson, or Tower Snow.
We all know that young associates work hard in the nation’s leading firms. They always
have and they always will. It is part of the ‘deal.’ You earn your stripes, get your experience, and earn
a high income. In exchange, the firm expects you to work hard, deal with unexpected changes in
schedules, handle enormous pressure, and serve every conceivable need of the firm and its clients.
Yes some lawyers still under bill, far more over bill and no one wants to admit the latter because it is
a road with an off ramp sign reading "surrender license here." Hours-driven bonus systems impact the

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delegation and distribution of work. The bottom line for students is that in what many fear is a
Dickensian world, average associate hours are around 1,975 a year - even though the grapevine
would have you assume that hours are 300-500 higher. In the same firms the average client hours
for equity partners will probably be 1,900 plus an average of 300 hours for marketing, administration,
client development, recruiting etc. Generally speaking the partners with the higher amounts of
business tend to have far higher business development time and somewhat lower client time (though
not as low as you might suspect).
One disturbing anomaly is that partners in their late 30's through mid 40's who should
be focusing on business development seem less likely to spend time doing that - for whatever reason
they will fill their plate with chargeable matters. But this has been true for a long time - because
partners often don't realize the need to learn to cook and grow crops until their plate is taken away
from them. Associates who bill 2,500 hours or more fall into one or more of the following categories
Those who have the trial / deal from hell that last many months and clock 300 hours plus a month
for 5 months can coast the rest of the year and hit 2500. It happens often at firms who have giga deals
and bet the company litigation.
Some actually enjoy the hours, do the work voluntarily, don't brag about it and have
found a comfort zone in life - their own private Idaho of satisfaction. The number of lawyers working
2,500 + hours a year is far fewer than most assume - it is just the natural human tendency to repeat,
gloss, inflate and exaggerate a bit here and there - just an adult version of the child's game of telephone
played with IM rather than with a can and a string, Some relentlessly and voluntarily chase the
compensation rabbit and define identity / self worth / sex appeal by how many hours they bill. This
breed often self selects into the most profitable and most demanding firms with most repeated names.
When firms add on hours-based compensation on top of this incendiary becomes combustible.
Some regrettably pad, shade, inflate hours because of the perverse incentives in the
system (just as some service partners hoard work to keep the management committee at bay). The
survival and prosperity of a partner depends on billings chargeable hours true expertise in an
area that is valuable to the firm and its clients working relationships with more senior partners who
view the partner as someone who contributes to the firm. Some of these factors can be measured -
others are soft and amorphous. Partners are assumed to already have the full basket of lawyerly skills -
written and oral communication, client serve, raw legal ability and all the rest. Many partners without
billings or ‘protectors’ believe survival requires working enough chargeable hours to satisfy the firm.
This subtle subconscious pressure can cause a tendency to hoard work better done by more junior
lawyers at a lower rate, to under delegate, to over work matters, or to inflate time.

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There are other factors as well that impact the overall averages. Some areas are hot
and busy (litigation IP and bankruptcy) and some areas are slow (non corp transactional) Partner
work hoarding in slow areas which further depresses associate hours The highest hours belong to
those in the hunt for partner or headed in that direction Some lawyers with low hours in busy areas
are not getting work for reasons which are valid Some lawyers with low hours have checked out and
are looking for a job with or without the firm's knowledge Work distribution is inefficient - and the
best and the busiest get more and those who are not often get less - although this can be a self fulfilling
prophecy which damages those who are not 'in favor.'
No matter what the differences will be a decade from now, it is safe to say that young
lawyers will always have similar personal and professional concerns as they jump the hurdle from
education to practice. Those concerns will be similar without regard to the school attended, the corner
of the profession chosen, whether you are the first or one of many lawyers in your extended family, and
whether you are "going home" to the city where you were raised or moving to a city you have never
lived in before. This generation of law school graduates is quite different from my generation. Among
the notable differences are these:
There has been a profound demographic shift in the ethnic and gender composition of law
school graduating classes (although much more needs to be done and will be done on both
fronts);
The modern law firm has become a business, with all the attendant pressures of profitability,
cost reduction, competition for clients, and long-term planning and strategic decisions;
The number of students graduated by the top law schools has remained the same for decades.
When the economy booms, law firms nationally will continue to reach farther and farther
across the country and deeper into the class to meet their needs.
The ability to raise

rates to maintain
profitability is over. What Might Surprise Associates and Students . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Premium billing will
Average associate hours in the leading firms in all major markets (including
become a rarity
many of the best firms in New York) are still in the 1,975-2,025 range. How
unless we encounter a could that be true? Consider the following. The average has many components
boom like the driven senior associates on the verge of partnership are likely to bill 2,300-
amazing Eighties. 2,500 hours a year or more mid-level associates in quiet areas struggle to
The pressure on make their required budget of 2,000 hours junior and mid-level associates
lawyers to work who are not doing well and have trouble finding work because partners have
turned their eyes elsewhere associates at various levels who are voluntarily
harder and be more
or involuntarily planning their departure and thus disengaged from the footrace
efficient will only to partnership. W hen you put all of that together - and throw in a recession that
increase no matter causes transactional work to be at a pace that is 70-80% of normal - the overall
whether you are on average is 2,000 hours. P.S. partners work harder than associates when you
Wall Street, Amarillo, include the enormous amount of time devoted to administration and marketing.
Portland, Topeka,
Philadelphia,

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Chicago, or Los Angeles. This is not a random selection. The day I was married, I realized that
all eight members of the wedding party were lawyers. These are the cities where each of us live
and practice. While most are trial lawyers the, group includes federal prosecutors, small firm
partners, and partners in the nation's largest firms. When we sit and chat about life we all have
the same concerns about family, spouse, time, practice, and professionalism. It's a point worth
remembering when you feel isolated in your earlier years. That we are not unique may be the
most comforting fact of all.
Issues like conflicts of interest, professional liability, and the like will arise more often than you
think.
At a minimum all of this means the following for new lawyers:
You will have to grow up faster and smarter than any earlier generation of new lawyers
Even as the economy recovers law firms will remain quicker to judge and evaluate than they
may have been during the never-ending boom of the 1980's.
Because you are much more likely to marry another equally ambitious professional, the
personal quandaries of family and private time will be even tougher to tackle than they were
for my generation.
You will however, have the benefit of amazing technological tools to help you do the job. If you
don't know how to use a computer---and have a solid working knowledge of word processing,
spreadsheet, graphics, and data base software you will be left on the sideline. A lawyer who falls
behind technologically will fall behind professionally. If you aren't facile with a computer, make
it your first order of business after graduation. It won't turn a liberal arts major into a techno-
nut. It will just allow you to be a more effective lawyer.
One colleague told me many years ago that he was concerned that if all lawyers learned
how to type that we would all turn into secretaries. Although I did not see this lawyer drafting with a
quill pen, I have a funny feeling that his resistance to using a computer was a product of a failure to
learn how to touch type. While older lawyers may be forgiven if they are technologically illiterate, you
must stay ahead of the curve. When I see a lawyer writing in longhand, researching manually, dictating
in person to a secretary, or otherwise handicapping their professional progress, I am saddened and
offended. Saddened because their professional life has been handicapped. Offended because their
resistance to technology costs their client a fortune in wasted time and effort.
Just as is true with other fundamental decisions you will make, e.g., when marrying,
buying a home, or deciding where to go to law school, selecting a law firm is a process where fact, logic,
and analysis are often cast to the wind and replaced by emotions, momentum, irrelevant data, and an
absence of objectivity and independence. A decision which involves forty years of practice and millions
of dollars in income deserves more careful scrutiny. The process is easier for employers than it is for
young lawyers considering a "lateral" move (I have always been mystified by the term "lateral." Given
the pressures of job changes in the 1990's, somehow the term "prone" seems a bit more realistic.)

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2. Partnership - There is only more subject more politically incorrect than

compensation - and that is acknowledging that you would like to become a law firm partner some day.
It is against law school Rules of Conduct 103(b) to admit to ambition. But if you are looking down the
road - the issue of partnership is and should be important. Generally the higher the level of average
partner income a firm the more difficult it is to become a partner. It is as simple as that.
An increasing number of firms nationally have two tier partnerships. Generally

promotion to non equity partner occurs at year 6 to year 9 and promotions to equity partner at year
10 to year 13. While this is a rapidly-changing picture - my hunch is that the time to make partner will
continue to become longer and that the odds of becoming a partner will become lower. It is just a
market fact. Making partner in a law firm requires an entire basket of skills. There is no one formula
but generally speaking it requires a desire to work long productive hours exceptional skills in a
warm or hot practice area strong client service skills a willingness and an aptitude to generate new
business for the firm and other intangible qualities.
3. A Place To Go - A Platform - A Place To Leave — Most lawyers will have 3-6

employers during their career. While you may hope that the firm you join this next year will be your
only employer, a prudent student understands that this is the first step in a long career. A strong law
firm provides you a place where you can learn the skills that are the foundation to an excellent career.
That experience makes you attractive to other employers. Equally important in the equation is the
reputation of the employer. Leading law firms with reputations for hiring and developing excellent
lawyers are attractive to head hunters and attractive to other employers.
Your first employer can be as or more important than where you went to school in
determining whether you are attractive to future employers. Excellent law firms understand that
some of their best lawyers will leave. They also understand that those who leave can become loyal
alumni who become clients, refer other business, or refer other lawyers to join the firm. So they don’t
view it as a negative when a lawyer moves on.
This is something the New York law firms learned decades ago that leading firms in
Chicago are coming to understand. While I wouldn’t recommend asking a firm during interviews
where the last 30 lawyers to leave the firm are today - it is a question worth pondering. A firm whose
alumni become senior government officials, judges, professors, partners in other leading firms, senior
executives in business is a firm whose pedigree you can admire. A firm that is embittered when lawyers
leave, when lawyers join competing firms, or when its alumni choose another path is being rather
short-sighted. As you make your decision this Fall try to factor in an understanding of whether the firm
you select will be as well respected as the law school you attended.
E. Law Firm Mergers -
aw firms compete nationally. One consequence of competition is that law firms reach into
L new markets to serve existing and potential clients. This is done by opening new offices and -
just as frequently - through mergers and acquisitions. This comparatively new phenomenon
has accelerated in the past three years and is having increasingly substantial effects in the

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Chicago market. During this era of consolidation - mergers will continue to be a driving force as firms
try to round out their range of services.
Law students need not study these trends or commit all the names to memory. But they
should take several lessons to heart. Law firm combinations and mergers are a fact of life in the 21st
century. Some will succeed and others will fail and it is, frankly, too early in the game to know with
any certainty which of the combinations were wise, which were barely prudent, and which were
gargantuan mistakes. The overhanging, looming presence of interdisciplinary competition from
accounting and management consulting firms is probably the big issue that will ripen between 2010-
2020 European competition and entry into the Chicago market will move from a minor fact to a
competitive reality in the next five to ten years. A rumor that a firm is entering in a merger means
relatively little.
Mergers can come from strategic strength and careful planning, from impulse, from a
desire to catch the bus before it leaves the station, or from a perception that survival requires
expansion or a 'rescue.' The internal and external spin doctors are just as adept at posturing in the law
firm world as they are in any other business. So take any rumor or announcement of a merger calmly.
There is no reason to panic or presume anything and what one hears around the electronic watering
hole (greedy associate websites and the like) is likely to be inaccurate and, in the main, not
constructive. If you’ve read this far, congratulations. It means you are a student who wants to make
a choice, not simply follow the crowd. One of the greatest difficulties for students is to sort and sift the
hearsay, facts, and rumors during the hiring season. There’s an awful lot of lemming like behavior as
students follow the noise of the crowd. And for law students trained in critical and independent
thinking, there is often a tendency to make choices based on hearsay and peer pressure. I encourage
you to think independently, actively, skeptically (not cynically) and figure out the best match between
your short and long-term ambitions and the array of splendid opportunities Chicago offers.36
36
You will be frustrated on the conflicting chatter/noise here - which could befuddle the NSA, CIA, and the UN
weapons inspectors. Almost all firms think about this subject and explore options quietly - but no one wants to broadcast that
fact because they fear it sends the wrong message to competitors and clients. There is enough plausible deniability going on to
bring a smile from the late Richard Nixon and his media side kick Ron Ziegler. Bluntly the firm which denies interests in merger
today may well be the firm that merges tomorrow. And, a firm's plans may only be known to very senior management - not all
of the partners. Put that in a pot with a little internet chat room sizzle and you've got a Cassoulet of confusion. There's a bit of
junior high school dance behavior going on - everybody wants to dance - even if they're standing against the gym wall crossing
their arms and staring at the mascot decal on the floor. I could give you some examples that The Iraqi information minister would
envy but then I'd have to shoot you and my — 1 only has eight rounds in a clip and this will be a long season.

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F. Law Firm Failures - Causes - Consequences

What Students Should Understand & Fear
The unexpected failure of a major national law firm is a frightening event to law students and recent
graduates. While law firms have never been immune to the business cycles - when a leading player
flames out in public it gives occasion for all of us to pause and consider why it happened and whether
any lessons can be learned from the failure. The causes for failure are many but usually including one
or more of the following factors
Decline in revenue and profitability caused by regional, national, or practice-area related

recessions (e.g., the Silicon Valley firms that blossomed and faded between 1998 and 2003).
Extinction level events caused by partner misconduct or unexpected tragedy. Consider the
example of the venerable New York firm Donovan Leisure which started its walk on the plank
when a prominent litigation partner concealed damning discovery materials during a major
patent litigation. Equally troubling was the failure of Petit Evers & Martin - a proud San
Francisco firm that was never the same after a tragic incident of workplace violence that led
to eight deaths.
Mergers that look great on paper but are lousy in practice. A leading example was the mid-
1980's merger of Chicago's Isham Lincoln & Beale (yes, the Lincoln on the penny) with briefly
prominent and always aggressive Reuben & Proctor. The organizational chart looked great -
the cultural collision was horrific.
Greedy expansion that resembles a Ponzi scheme but ultimately collapses. In the 1980's the
Finley Kumble firm increased in size by 1000% in a short period - adding fancy partners with
even fancier titles and compensation. Ultimately the firm had to borrow heavily to meet its
compensation needs and the pyramid collapsed like a partially-cooked souffle. Many Finley
Kumble partners spent the better part of the next decade digging out of the financial hole they
created.37 Interestingly, the demise of Finley Kumble caused the nation's banks to re examine
the terms under which they loan money to firms and to individual lawyers. The casual laissez
faire approach to lending was decidedly old school but left many leading banks in a hole. Banks
today are much tougher with firms on collateral, payment, cash flow, interest, and other
issues.38
37
One wore the orange jump suit as a guest of the federal government and became famous for allegations of
being treated to 'diesel therapy,' i.e., the involuntary busing of mis-behaving inmates from prison to prison.
38
There is nothing illegal, immoral, offensive, or inappropriate about a law firm borrowing to finance operations.
But understand the following important distinction: most firms have to borrow periodically during the year because revenue
flows are erratic but expenses are a constant. Firms typically do not park excess cash in the bank - they prefer to borrow, pay
the tax deductible interest and move on. However, periodic borrowing is far different than long-term loans - especially when
there is some doubt about the ability to repay the long-term loan when it is based on naive or wildly optimistic assumptions about
cash flow and profitability. Also, students are often mystified by law firm “capital.” Here's a short course. An equity partner
(continued...)

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Mismanagement (not venal, just lousy ). Many firms expand into the wrong area, with the
wrong people, at the wrong time, with predictable consequences. An example which fits this
mold would be Chicago's Keck Mahin & Cate - which launched an aggressive expansion
campaign just as the 1990 recession took ahold of the economy and the profession. They found
themselves with too many offices in cities where they could not run a positive cash flow along
with palatial new digs on Wacker Drive. Despite very strong lawyers and a very strong client
base their denouement was inevitable - and they went from major Chicago firm to closed
business in less than a year. Again the financial carnage for former partners was considerable:
many spent 5-8 years paying off claims representing multiples of their annual income to
discharge the obligations of the firm.39
Venal Mismanagement - When greed displaces common sense, failure is often the result. In
many law firm failures, the single minded greed of senior management underlies many of the
errors made in the final years of a firm's life. Like Icarus, some lawyers yearn to get too close
to the sun, and their waxen wings ultimately fail them. I've always felt that one sign that the
end of a boom in the securities market is near will be lead stories in the media about lawyers
becoming investment bankers (because that's where the real 'action' - read cash - happens to
be). Lawyers working with titans of industry (public and private) become obsessed with the
almighty dollar and conclude that $500,000 or $ 1million or $4 million is not enough. Some
jump the hurdle to business. Others become bankers. But some stay in the profession and try
to earn the last possible dollar any way that it is possible. Their greed - combined with a lack
of basic business common sense - often leads to the failure of a law firm.
Railroad-itis. A pundit once observed that the railroads would have continued to be profitable
had they realized in the 1940's and 1950's that they were in the transportation business - not
the rail business. Had they done so and bought an airline or two the world might be a whole
38
(...continued)
owns a share of the business and law firms assign a value to that share. As one's shares are awarded (or points or units as they
are sometimes called) the partner must “buy” the shares. A typical new equity partner in a large Chicago firm has a “capital
contribution of $75-125,000. That capital is augmented as the partner receives more shares and earns more income. The capital
is returned upon death retirement withdrawal, etc. The capital contribution does not bear interest. Most importantly it
does not sit idly in a bank account - it is used for operations and is just another accounting entry in the firms balance sheet. So,
when a firm such as Altheimer & Gray goes belly up, partners who contributed millions in capital find their contributions “Gone
W ith the W ind.”
39
Herewith a very short course in law firm failures. W hen a law firm fails the primary creditors are usually
the bank who provides short and long-term financing for the firm the landlord and those who lease computers or other
equipment to a firm. Having run out of cash the only sources for cash are unpaid bills from clients and work in process that
is completed but un-billed. Not surprisingly it is often difficult for defunct law firms to collect outstanding (or unissued bills)
from clients. The last open wallets for the landlord and the bank to spelunk are the cash resources of the former partners. The
loan agreement from the bank and the lease may have certain limitations on liability (e.g., an overall cap, a % of individual
partner's capital or earnings, a multiple of earnings or cash flow, etc). Sometimes, but rarely the liability is non-recourse (on
leases) letting partners off the hook. At the end of the day the partners pay and banks and landlords are as relentless as one would
expect in collecting what they are owed. There is no cash in the firm vault - i.e., there are no 'capital accounts' to draw upon.
All the money is gone.

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lot different today (at least for the once wealthy heirs to the railroad fortunes). Some law firms
fail because they stick to dying industries, weak markets, or poor practices. Such law firms
usually fade away with final flicker and glimmer. Examples may include Lord, Day & Lord (in
New York), Arter & Hadden (Ohio), etc. A firm with a reverse pyramid, or one which has
stagnated in terms of growth, profitability or foresight is a good candidate for this type of
extinction. No fraud. No movie rights. No unremitting greed - just railroad management.
To understand why and how law firms fail, one needs a foundation in the evolution of the major
national law firm. Curious historians should read Marc Galanter and Thomas Palay, Tournament of
Lawyers (Univ. of Chicago Press 1991)(a detailed analysis of the evolution of large law firms) and Paul
Hoffman, Lions in the Street: The Inside Story of the Great Wall Street Law Firms, (1973, Signet) (the
first book to discuss the genesis of Wall Street firms).
What can or should a law student or recent graduate considering Chicago learn from
the demise of Altheimer & Gray? For purposes of entry-level hiring the following facts are worth
noting the firm's reach exceeded its grasp and its effort to graduate from mid-size to mega firm had
direct and indirect ripple effects which accelerated its demise many new associate victims of the pre-
closing terminations have fared well - often landing at more prestigious firms. However, mid-level
associates and partners without business have not fared as well. The burden is on all students and
lawyers making decisions to avoid joining firms which have any of the following traits unsecured
borrows used to finance shortfalls in cash flow or unwarranted expansion attempts to do sleight of
hand restructurings that dress a firm up for merger without solving organic problems the 'edifice
complex'™ in which a troubled firm bleeds money to build unnecessarily fancy palaces firms which
replace a culture of open discussion with a closed management group which reports to no one.
Law firms are fragile institutions held together by shared values, economic risks, and
economic rewards. They do not have factories or inventories. The only product is intellectual capital,
and the only asset is time billed. When risky expansion is undertaken at the same time that
unacceptable (and excessive expenses) are booked that have no bearing on the reality of the current
market, the road south is short, steep, and often fatal. At some point the bank says 'no,' stops lending
money to underwrite experiments and the enterprise crumbles unless partners are willing to invest
more of their own money. The bitterness of the post collapse battles among former partners speaks
volumes about how and why the firm stepped into the abyss of Finley, Kumble / Reuben &Proctor /
Donovan Leisure / and Keck Mahin & Cate. Former partners now find themselves on the hook for
more than $30 million in bank debt and a recently extended long-term lease on Class B office space.
They could learn lessons from partners of Keck Mahin & Cate. Amazingly, some partners at A&G
claim not to have known or understood the gravity of the firm's problems until the bus headed off the
cliff. In some ways this is not surprising - lawyers are often deep in denial about the troubles of their
own firm and it many have only a very superficial understanding of their firm's partnership
agreement and their potential personal liabilities for bank debt, real estate leases, and other
obligations.
The most common warning signs of a troubled law firm included the following —

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Self-perpetuating senior management that is not accountable to the partnership as a whole.

When the law firm chair is a perpetual position or the appointment to the management
committee is permanent and self-perpetuating there is a pronounced risk of abuse. As in the
business world, when the CEO and core key management are not accountable to shareholders
or employees - the potential for unregulated (and undetected abuse) is enormous. At least in
the old fashioned notion of partnership - one shares all upsides and down sides, all assets and
liabilities, and most importantly information about decisions. When the management
committee begins to resemble the Politburo, run for the hills.
A tight circle of 'founders' or 'key' partners with substantial cash or other perks that are either
not disclosed, or not controlled by the partnership (advance draws, secret cash or in kind
perks, etc). Secret deals, side deals, perks not normally handed out in law firms, or just goofy
weird excessive stuff is often a sign of far greater problems. “Special side deals” for certain
partners (disclosed or not) (approved or not) often hint strongly at a firm which has other far
more severe problems.
Senior partner compensation that is unrealistic given the market - a hard fact for new lawyers
to discern - but when senior partners are substantially over paid to what they would earn in
other peer firms it can be a warning sign of a firm in trouble.
Borrowing too much and too often - When a firm does more than borrow for 2-6 months a
year for cash flow reasons and does not pay the debt down every year in total - it can be a sign
that the firm is financing current cash distributions from long-term earnings.
The edifice complex - firms who build, buy, or lease palaces that are over the top often are
trying to project an image that does not comport with reality
The baseless assumption that some mega New York firm will offer to merge with a firm whose
economics are not even remotely comparable to what is seen on Wall Street or the West Coast
(occasionally called the Fantasyland Fallacy).
Witless expansion - opening offices or expanding practice groups in areas where the firm does
not have a realistic change of competing with other firms. Firms in a head long rush to achieve
scale or reach often grab the first dance partner they can without considering long-term
consequences. For twenty years the major airlines have merged, divested, acquired, and shed
in a pointless game of musical chairs. Southwest stays on the sideline, with a simple unfancy
business model, and makes money year in an year out. More Herb Kelleher - less Steve Wolf.
Not a bad idea in the law firm world either. Going from Kansas City to Columbus may lack the
cachet of a globe girdling network of 747-400's flying thousands of empty sleeper seats across
the Pacific. But it makes money. I'll see you on the Orange 737.
Acquisitions of partners or groups whose culture is at odds with the long term culture of the
firm. Law firms often stumble to death's door because of serial lateral hiring of lawyers whose
practices are profitable but whose culture / temperaments are fundamentally incompatible.
Playing dress up games - Many firms have gone through the charade of 'restructuring' to goose
their American Lawyer profit numbers. Smart acquirers understand that this adult game of
dress-up just puts lipstick on the proverbial pig. However, restructuring can have profoundly
negative consequences internally. First, partners who are de-equitized must receive their

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invested capital (for A&G this was a multi million dollar expense). Second, Unless the capital
is replaced by the remaining partners, the firm has a cash flow problem which can only be
solved by further borrowing from their bank. Third, the step is the law firm equivalent of
chemical castration - it is demoralizing and demeaning to those who are kicked out of the tent.
Fourth, it accomplishes nothing in terms of improving the short or long term organic
profitability of the law firm that could not be accomplished through the routine exercise of
adjusting earnings and shares. Finally, it looks like a game and when a company - whether it
is Tyco, Enron, Andersen, a once great dot.com , or the local bodega - plays games it becomes
less attractive to potential suitors. Botox doesn't work (yet) in law firm mergers.
The speed with which many A&G partners found new homes is testimony to the
strength of their skills (and their books of business0 — including Schiff Hardin, Sonnenschein Nath
& Rosenthal, Greenberg Traurig, Neal Gerber & Eisenberg, Jenner & Block, Arnstein & Lehr, Latham
& Watkins, Williams Montgomery & John - to name only few. The new associates and junior associates
fared better than one might have suspected.
The lesson for all lawyers is a predictable as it is challenging - those with business
and/or in hot practice areas can move - those without have far fewer options. Consider the parallel in
the business world - in any bankruptcy some assets are easy to sell - and some are impossible to
peddle. When Pan American went bankrupt in the mid 80's its crown jewel was its Pacific and
European route system - which commanded a substantial price when purchased by United. Today,
a troubled United still places a great value on a route system built in part through this acquisition.
What, if anything can law students and young lawyers do? This is a tough area. The best advice is to
remain broadly knowledgeable about your firm and the profession as a whole. Don't assume naively
that “it can't happen at my firm” because given the right chain of events - it can happen almost
anywhere. Don't embrace every rumor you hear inside or outside the firm about the condition of your
firm or the conduct of your colleagues. But don't ignore the odor and the haze of the smoke. It is just
short of astonishing that some Altheimer & Gray partners say they “had no idea” the firm was so close
to failure when it closed its doors. Lawyers are often lousy business people and lawyers immersed in
the problems of their clients often ignore what is going on in their own firm.
At a minimum law students and lawyers should Cultivate and establish relationships
with partners - and pay attention to what you hear (and what you do not hear) Stay current on
trends and issues in the profession Learn how to read a law firm financial statement Look for signs
of weakness - mismanagement - misdirection - or trouble. More often than not conspicuous signs exist
long before the trouble becomes terminal. Look for warning signs such as lateral hiring that just
does not make sense a fundamental change in culture, rates, expectations about income that is
inconsistent with the firm heritage, market realities, or current economic trends Be wary of
management that is not accountable self perpetuating over paid or intolerant of criticism or
change. Be wary of side deals, excessive perks, or other unusual arrangements - they are usually an
external symptom of a very serious internal problem. However - don't let your skepticism turn into
dysfunctional cynicism. There is nothing wrong per se with borrowing money. Strategic expansion is
often risky and may have benefits that only play out in the long term. Strong leadership is not
necessarily evil - nor is long term leadership if it has been effective.

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153
Conclusion
ou are entering a demanding, rewarding, fascinating, enjoyable, and enduring profession. You
Y have a chance to contribute in almost any way you can imagine. Even with the limits of
economic ups and downs, someone with a degree from one of the nation’s premier schools has
almost unlimited potential. Many years ago, I saw a partner in a New York firm comparing marked
versions of the current and previous editions of the Blue Book. He had his proofreading department
blue book the Blue Book. Give that man some velcro and let him get a grip. Did he find happiness? Did
he come home on weekends to see his family? My lips are sealed. I hope you leave your law school with
the same affection that I have always felt for Michigan. A wonderful law school becomes part of you
and you become part of it. You will carry the principles, standards, and magic of this corner of the
world with you throughout your career - providing you inspiration, toughness, character, resilience,
sensitivity, perspective, and wisdom. Take the magic with you and never lose your sense of marvel
about the world - and if you do - just hug your kids, volunteer, chase a dog, or ride a horse. The magic’s
still there - you just have to look a little harder. But please, don't blue book the Blue Book. Someone
did that already.
Many would agree that the four greatest American speeches of the 20th century were
FDR's 1933 inaugural, MacArthur's farewell speech to Congress, Kennedy's inaugural, and King's “I
have a dream.” But the roster would be incomplete without Rev. Jesse Jackson's impassioned speech
at the 1988 Democratic Convention - where on an evening so hot that it had to be in Atlanta he spoke
eloquently about those who struggle without fanfare to overcome discrimination, poverty, and the
obstacles of life.” He said we may not see them “because they take the early bus.” Reverend Jackson and
I part company on many political issues - but his invocation should carry a powerful meaning to
Americans of every party and persuasion.
While the quest for employment as a law student is not the same Herculean struggle -
the speech sends a powerful message - to work hard - even when not in the limelight, to never lose
sight of the dream, and to carry on. Talk to your parents and grand parents about the challenges they
faced - and it will encourage you this Fall. Your efforts are not marginalized. Far from it. Your family
did what they did so that you could have this opportunity. Their efforts will inspire you to triumph
over obstacles in uncertain times. And, for those of you on the early bus - my office hours begin at 6:30
a.m. I hope you find these materials useful and that you emerge at the end of the callback process with
attractive options. Best wishes for a successful, rewarding, interesting, and satisfying Fall.
August 26, 2009 Franklyn D. Kimball
This copyrighted text contains the opinions of the author. I am pleased to share these materials at no
charge with faculty, adm inistrators, students and graduates of Duke, H arvard, Illinois, M ichigan,
Northwestern, Loyola Chicago, Georgetown, Virginia, and Indiana.. This text should not be view ed as
the opinions of the adm inistration or faculty of any of these exceptional law schools. For inform ation
on licensing this text to your students or law firm , please call or e-M ail Frank Kim ball.

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Appendix A — Students' Most Common

Questions About Callback Interviews
In 27 years working with law students and hiring committees, the following are the most common
questions that students ask about the call-back process. This section provides a quick reference
guide and reverences to more detailed discussions later in the materials. I know that law students
are ambitious, exhausted, impatient, and eager. Take a deep breath, set aside two hours and read
these materials. Use a highlighter. Dog ear the pages that interest you. Then, when you are ready to
get down to the heavy lifting of preparing for interviews - go back and re-read the sections that are
most important to the issue or day at hand.
What is a call back? What is the law firm trying to accomplish? — The call back
interview is a half day or more of interviews at a law firm office in which the firm interviews a student
in detail. It serves two purposes. First, the law firm will continue to assess you - your depth, range,
talent, ambition, fit, etc. Second, the law firm will try to sell you on the wisdom of joining that firm.
The mix between the two can be confusing. But accept the process as one where there is a reciprocal
effort to sell and assess. A great interviewer can sell and assess at the same time. A lousy interviewer
will not be able to do either. You will meet both creatures in this Fall's Wild Kingdom.
Ten firms have invited me for call backs. What should I do? First, congratulations,
Second, take a deep breath. Third, consider paring your visits a bit. Unless you are serious about a firm
and view it as likely that you could accept an offer, why take the time to go on a call back? There is no
one answer to this question but students who go on too many call backs accomplish nothing.
Only two firms invited me after 20 interviews on campus - what should I do? First,
make the most of the two interviews. Second, do some rigorous self evaluation about why your results
from OCI were disappointing. Understanding why you hit a wall will help you interview more
effectively this Fall. Check your ego and assumptions at the door and be prepared to embrace reasons
which may be difficult to accept. Third, work with your OCS to determine a fall back strategy for the
Fall and embark upon that effort immediately.
When should I schedule call backs? — If at all possible - avoid Fridays when firms are
buried in students. Earlier in the week you will see a smoother and better process. If you can - try
Mondays and Tuesdays. Schedule your call back as promptly as possible - the process is akin to
rolling admissions into law school or college. All other things being equal, the student who interviews
earlier will fare better.
Who handles travel and schedule arrangements? — This varies. Most larger firms in
major markets have travel desks who will handle all air travel and hotel arrangements. The law firm
recruiting coordinator who schedules your interview can discuss this with you. Some mid size and
smaller firms in smaller markets may not have a travel desk. And it is possible that some firms may
not reimburse your expenses. Just ask. It is not an inappropriate question. Keep a careful record of
your out of pocket expenses. Use sites such as www.orbitz.com or www.expedia.com to get the best
possible airfares and hotel prices.
Who will interview me? — In most firms you will spend a morning or an afternoon (plus
a breakfast, lunch, or dinner) meeting 4-12 attorneys. You will probably meet partners and associates

155
in a variety of practice areas. Some of the attorneys will be members of the firm's hiring or interviewing
committee. All of their opinions will matter - no matter how junior the attorney and no matter whether
the attorney works in an area in which you have no interest.
What About Attire? — In twenty words or less — try to be conservatively unmemorable.
Don't become a punch line for hiring committee meeting. Although practices vary somewhat from
coast to coast - the student who wears a suit and tie will never be viewed as out of touch. If you veer
towards casual attire, keep it simple, classic, and tasteful. The same goes for body art, piercings, that
Mark McGuire beard you are cultivating like a hot box of heirloom tomatoes, jewelry that makes noises
or can receive satellite television signals, flamingly unnatural hair colors, or anything else that will be
memorable to a 30-55 year old interviewer. Yes we had a whole generation full of bad hair days back
when Giants Walked the Earth. But a student who is known by his attire, rather than his substance,
has turned himself into a perpetual punch line.40
Do I need a haircut? — If you have to ask the question, you know the answer. Cut it.
All scientific evidence indicates that 95% of the time it will grow back. You aren't crossing to the other
side, burning your political registration card, or sacrificing your identity on the altar of free enterprise.
You are getting your first job in a profession. Still disagree? Go to the websites of 5 random firms in
your first choice city. Check the appearance and attire of 20 random lawyers. Then reconsider your
opinion. I have a dim recollection of a Michigan student I once met who said “I don't know if I can
accept a firm that cannot accept my hair.” While you're at it, skip the edgy look. It doesn't work in
corporate America.
What should I bring with me to the interview? — Always have spare copies of your
resume, transcript, reference sheet, and a writing sample. Even if you have provided all of this to the
law firm, it is possible that an attorney you meet may not have received them (or perish the though -
she may have mislaid them). Turn off your phone.
What about “stress interviews”? — It is highly unlikely that you will go through a 'stress'
interview where you are asked tough legal questions or asked to diagram a principle of applied
mathematics. You will find most interviews to be low key question and answer sessions which are
cordial and open-ended. Relax.
Where are the over the top jerks I've heard about? — You won't meet them during
interviews. Law firms don't send their less gifted lawyers out on client pitches and they don't involve
them in interviews. The best law firms have scores of extremely talented interviewers. They will be
charismatic, charming, attractive, compelling, and engaging. That's before they even get warmed up.
The law firm is trying to assess you at the same try it is trying to sell. This means it puts its best foot
40
I'll never forget students who acquired nicknames such as Nathan Detroit, Nancy Neckline, Pool
Boy, Shrimp Boat, Adolfo Armani (arrived wearing shades, all black attire, no socks), and Fran The Fragrance. The
year was 1990 and the city was Chicago. I was sitting in my 53rd floor office on a crisp Fall afternoon. In walked a
third year from a top 20 school - but I smelled the citrus-like fragrance from 25 feet away. W hat completed the
ensemble was the pale pink raw silk faux Chanel suit, the Kelly bag (guys, ask your women friends what this is) and
what had to be dyed to match shoes. Magna and law review became distant hints of her substance. She was defined
by her appearance.

156
forward. Do not mistake the cordial friendly demeanor for a lack of scrutiny. The best interviewers
know how to assess and analyze you at the same time that they relax and charm your soul.
I am confused and overwhelmed! — Good. So are all of your class-mates - even those
who seem unflappable, and relaxed. This is a tough, important, and stressful decision. If you master
these materials, take a look at your core objectives, and distance yourself a bit from the mass hysteria
of your law school class, you are 75% of the way toward a decision that is right for you. If you were
serene, sedate, and un-bothered by the process, I'd be far more worried about your welfare. Listen to
the tape of this program and review the materials - once in detail, again to hit the high spot, and once
more to revisit the areas of special significance to your concerns. The better you understand the firms
you visit, the lawyers you meet, and the way the process works - the more effective you will be. It's a
matter of immersion, reflection, and participation in the process.
Will I be asked about my grades? Yes. I know you were interviewed on campus and that
you 'made the cut.' But it is likely that at least one or two interviewers will speak with you about your
grades. See page ___ for how to handle their queries. The attorney may not be familiar with your
school or its grading system. Don't be offended. Use it as an opportunity enlighten and persuade. It
is not the interviewers fault that they went to law school 30 years ago, when most law schools had one
journal and far different grading systems / curves.
Will I be asked about my previous work experience? Absolutely. You should welcome
any question about your background and experience. This gives you a chance to shine, to elaborate on
the details of your life beyond the four corners of your resume. Just as an advocate welcome questions
from the court during oral argument, you should view questions about your background as a chance
to shine.
I am an older student - will that hurt or help? - An increasing percentage of law
students have prior work experience.
What Are My Chances? — Better than you fear - but not so great that you can afford to
be passive or unprepared. Most law firms will extend summer offers to 50-66 percent of students
invited on call-backs. The toughest hurdle is receiving an invitation to the office. This does not give you
an excuse to coast. The call back is designed to allow a firm to probe in more detail about your
background, interests, and ambitions. The campus interview - typically 20 minutes - is far too short
a period of time to make an absolute judgment about the wisdom of hiring a student.
How do firms make offer decisions? — Each attorney who interviews you will complete
an evaluation form. The form will usually have a variety of boxes where you are rated and a bottom line
recommendation on whether you should be given an offer. It will also include room for additional
written comments. The forms are forwarded to the recruiting coordinator and presented at a hiring
committee meeting - typically 1-10 days after you interview. The committee will discuss, briefly,
whether an offer should be made. At some firms offers are made on the spot or within a day or two.
On average, expect a decision 3-10 days after your visit. It may come by phone, mail, or e-mail. The
hiring committee rarely “votes” on an offer. Rather, a committee tries to reach a rapid consensus on
each candidate. The process is not perfect and mistakes are made. But law firms try to make smart,
cautious, and practical decisions that are in the best interest of the firm. You will win some and lose
some. Remember - even Barry Bonds only gets a hit 35 times out of every 100 times he comes to the
plate.

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What about references and writing samples? — Some firms will ask for both - some
will ask for neither. Be prepared. Have a list of references - including names, titles, firm, phone
number and e-mail addresses. Don't worry about having a scant list - many of the best prospects will
have had no prior experience in private practice and limited work experience before law school.
Potential references include law school faculty members legal employers from last summer or last
year business employers. The reference should be able to speak to your work ethic, intellect,
effectiveness, and people skills. For writing samples, bring a paper and CD/disk copy to the
interview in PDF or Word format make certain that all client identifying material is omitted (unless
it is a document filed in court) and that no privileged or confidential information is included and be
certain you have the permission of the prior employer to use the writing sample. The writing sample
should have your name, law school, class, and contact information on the first and last page - or if
submitted on disk or CD - on a label on the CD or disk. Title the file “Smith, John Duke 2006 Writing
Sample 1"
My school places few graduates in my first choice city. What impact will this have?
— It all depends. If your law school is ranked in the top 10 or top 20 - or is well known within the
region you will not have to do a lot of selling or informing. However, please consider that in many
major markets even exceptional schools are not well known. For example, in Chicago, there are few
graduates of Yale, Stanford, Boalt, Virginia, Penn, NYU, and Columbia. Employers respect the schools
enormously but they may be unfamiliar with grading systems, journals, etc. And they may have some
skepticism about students who attend exceptional schools from outside the region if the students does
not have strong ties to the city where they are interviewing. Accept and embrace this skepticism. Don't
be defensive or dismissive. If an attorney in Portland wants to know about Duke be able to list a series
of crisp bullet points about the strengths and characteristics of the school.
What other practical tips can you give me? — Don't try to squeeze too much into one
day if at all possible arrive at the city for interviews the night before interviews begin check your
e-mail and voice mail 2-3 times every day to be up to date on communications from all employers
if you cannot take a lap top with you use a hotel's business center to check your e-mail before you head
out for interviews please turn off your phone, blackberry, or other devices before going into
interviews make sure you know the location of the office (strange but true but every year I hear of
students who fail the hotel to law firm navigation contest) Spend some time the night before
interviews reviewing the news items on the firm's website to see what's new and different easy on
the caffeine in the morning and the alcohol at night - you will be a far better interviewer if you smoke
- please stop - your family will love you even more - but if you must please do not assume that you can
load up on Camels on the way to the office to de-stress yourself without smelling like a waste basket
during the day arrive at main reception 15 minutes before the appointed time give yourself a few
extra minutes to find the building and the firm if it is your first time in a city - and remember that in
most office buildings in large cities you will go through one or two security conga lines before you
reach the law firm's reception area.

Kimball Professional Management
Services For Law Firms
imball Professional Management is the only legal search firm in the nation founded by the former hiring
K partner of an AmLaw 50 firm. This memorandum outlines services we provide for law firms. We work
with leading firms in Chicago, New York, California and Washington, D.C. on retained and contingent
fee searches for practice groups, partners and associates. We advise leading law firms on entry-level
and lateral hiring, compensation, and professional development. We have placed partners and associates in
many practice areas, including —
Antitrust I.P. Patent & Non Patent Real Estate
Corporate Litigation Sports Law
Employee Benefits Outsourcing / High Tech Tax - Fed., S&L, International
Estate Planning Private Equity Trade Associations
Government Contracts Public / Private Finance White Collar Criminal Defense
We have placed partners and associates with more than 30 leading firms, including —
Baker & McKenzie Jenner & Block Ropes & Gray
Bartlit Beck Jones Day Schiff Hardin
Bell, Boyd & Lloyd Katten Muchin Rosenman Seyfarth Shaw
Chapman and Cutler Kirkland & Ellis Sidley Austin
Faegre & Benson Latham & Watkins Skadden Arps
Foley & Lardner Mayer Brown Rowe & Maw Sonnenschein
Gardner, Carton McDermott, Will & Emery Stein Ray Harris
Grippo & Elden McGuire Woods Vedder Price
Miller Canfield Winston & Strawn
Kimball 854 W. Webster Ave. 773-528-7548 www.KimballProfessional.com

Professional Management Chicago, IL 60614 773-528-7684 Fax Frank@KimballProfessional.com
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Partner Placements - We have placed partners in a wide range of practice areas with mega
firms, mid size firms, and large and small offices of national firms. Representative placements include:
A Patent Partner with a Chemical Engineering background at a 900 lawyer national firm
A Real Estate Partner with a $2MM practice – placed in a large Chicago firm
A Tax Practice Group Leader – placed at one of the five largest firms in Chicago
A Benefits Practice Group Head placed at a 800 lawyer national firm
A partner with a substantial health care practice, placed at large Chicago based firm
A tax lawyer from a 2,000 lawyer firm placed as head of a mid size law firm’s tax practice.
A state and local tax partner placed with a 500 lawyer firm
A corporate partner with a seven figure practice placed with a multi office national firm
A minority Real Estate partner with business placed at national firm
A corporate partner with nearly $2 MM in business - placed at large Chicago-based firm
A corporate partner with a substantial practice – placed in the Grand Rapids office of a leading Michigan
firm.
This roster omits many placements where agreements with our clients require us to maintain confidentiality or
where candidates have requested confidentiality about the circumstances of their lateral move.
Recent Associate Placements — Among our recent associate placements are the following
A 2006 litigator from Northwestern placed with a premier litigation boutique
A 2002 corporate associate placed with one of Chicago’s five largest firms
A 20o3 insurance coverage litigator placed with a premier Chicago firm
A 2005 litigator from Northwestern placed in the San Francisco office of a 1,000 lawyer firm
A 2005 Michigan graduate practicing with a leading Honolulu firm placed with a premier Chicago firm’s
real estate practice group
A 2005 Illinois graduate placed in the health care practice group of a leading national firm
A 2002 Indiana graduate and litigation associate in a national firm’s Chicago office placed with a real
estate and construction litigation boutique
A 2003Michigan graduate and white collar litigation associate practicing with a premier Wall Street firm
placed with the Chicago office of one of the nation’s leading firms
A 2006 Illinois graduate practicing with a leading West Coast firm placed in the Chicago office of a
premier national firm
A 2003 Michigan graduate practicing in the corporate group of a premier Wall Street law firm placed
in the Chicago office of one of the nation’s leading firms.
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A 2004 Northwestern graduate practicing in a leading mid size Chicago firm placed with a highly
selective litigation boutique.
A 2004 Chicago graduate placed with the litigation group of a 900 lawyer national firm.
A 2003 Yale graduate from a premier Wall Street law firm placed with the private wealth management
practice of a leading Chicago firm.
A 2006 Michigan graduate and law review editor placed with the Chicago office of an AmLaw 30 firm
A 2001 Harvard graduate who practiced as a corporate associate in a leading Wall Street firm placed in
one of the strongest corporate practice groups in Chicago.
Consulting and Advisory Services
We provide consulting, advisory, and training services to leading firms nationally. We advise our clients
on entry-level and lateral hiring tactics and strategies, compensation, and competitive issues. We’ve
presented programs at law firm retreats and national hiring partner conferences on all aspects of entry
level and lateral hiring strategies and tactics.
We have trained hundreds of campus and office interviewers and spoken at hiring committee retreats
for more than a dozen AmLaw 200 firms including Shearman & Sterling, Paul Hastings, Akin Gump,
Katten Muchin Rosenman, Jenner & Block, Gardner Carton & Douglas (now Drinker Biddle), Arnold
& Porter, Winston & Strawn, Schiff Hardin, and Neal Gerber Eisenberg.
Frank has presented more than 50 programs to more than 3,000 students at Chicago, Columbia, DePaul,
Duke, Georgetown, Harvard, Illinois, Kent, Michigan, Northwestern, NYU, Virginia, Washington & Lee,
Loyola Chicago, and Indiana.
Frank has presented scores of programs for hiring and managing partners and placement professionals
including nine NALP Annual Conferences, NALSC annual meetings, and other programs for recruiting
professionals in Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and other markets.
Our Philosophy
We work only with candidates who we believe will excel over the long term in some of the most selective
law firms in the United States. We work with a short list of lawyers and firms - this gives both the firm
client and the lawyer the 1:1 service essential to making the right decision at the right time.
We do not solicit or recruit lawyers who practice with our law firm clients were we have active ongoing
search relationships or where the search agreement precludes contacting lawyers. A list of firms where
we cannot recruit is available on request. Of course we never recruit, solicit, or place a lawyer who we
have placed with a law firm client.
We take pride in long-term placements. The first lawyer placed - a second year associate at the time -
became a partner in the same premier Chicago firm and practices there today. Eight five percent of
the partners we have placed still practice with the same firm. The average longevity of associate
placements is 4.75 years - more than twice the industry average. Many placed associates have later
been promoted to partner with the law firm client where they were placed.
We are committed to diversity. More than 50 percent of the lawyers placed by this firm are women.
More than 13 percent are members of minority groups. The first lawyer placed in 1994 was a minority
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woman associate. We have placed openly gay associates, partners, and practice group leaders. We
believe that diversity is more than a tag line — it is a priority.
This firm has been built through referrals and relationships, not mass mailing and relentless cold calling.
It’s old fashioned -but the core elements of successful matches between firms and prospects are the same
today as they were decades ago. We take great pride in a successful placement and helping to open a door
to a brighter and more rewarding professional future.
Search And Advisory Fees
Our base placement fee is 25 percent of the placed lawyer’s annual cash compensation, which is invoiced
when the lawyer joins your firm and is due 30 days later. For partner and group placements we are
pleased to discuss a variety of sliding scales and caps related to the size of the group, the compensation
of the lawyers, and other factors. We do not charge a placement fee for associate members who join a
law firm client with a placed partner. We are also pleased to work within the framework of your
standard search firm agreement or to structure a fee agreement for a particular search.
We guarantee our placements. If a placed partner or associate is terminated for cause or resigns
voluntarily within twelve months of their arrival we will, at the client’s option, refund the fee on a pro-
rated basis or search for and place a replacement candidate at no charge. It’s something that’s never
arisen during our 14 years of service, but we are pleased to offer that assurance.
Fees for consulting projects are established in advance and are based on the scope, nature, and extent
of the project, subject to a minimum fee of $25,000.
About Frank Kimball
Frank Kimball has interviewed more than 9,500 law students and lawyers and hired or placed hundreds
of lawyers and summer associates. As the hiring partner and summer program chair for McDermott, Will
& Emery and as an associate with Shearman & Sterling, he interviewed at 20 law schools. He has 30
years' experience interviewing, hiring, and evaluating lawyers and law students.
A 1977 Michigan graduate, Frank won Michigan’s Campbell Moot Court Competition (with his brother
George), was a Note & Comment Editor of the Michigan Journal of Law Reform, and a Senior Writing
Instructor. He graduated magna cum laude from U.C.L.A., is a member of Phi Beta Kappa, and was
Second Speaker at the 1973 National Debate Tournament.
He joined Shearman & Sterling in New York as a litigation associate. He argued appeals in banking, tax,
takeover, and shareholder derivative matters and worked on more than 30 takeovers and contested
acquisitions. He joined Chicago’s McDermott, Will & Emery in 1986 as a litigation partner - served on
the hiring committee for six years, chaired the summer program in 1988-89, and served as national
hiring partner in 1990-1992.
Frank Kimball 773-528-7548 (DID) 312-350-2656 (Cell)

854 West Webster Ave. Chicago IL 60614
Frank@KimballProfessional.com www.KimballProfessional.com
Lateral Hiring Services
imball Professional Management advises law firms, lawyers, and law schools on entry-level and
K lateral hiring, including lateral placements, advising on compensation and hiring strategy, training
interviewers, and counseling lawyers and students. This memorandum outlines lateral hiring
services we provide for lawyers and answers preliminary questions about the search process. Several
subjects are discussed —
Associate Placements . . . . . 2 The 2009 Market . . . . . . . 4 Starting Your Search . . . . 6

Partner Placements . . . . . . 2 Frank Kimball . . . . . . . . . . 4 Requirements . . . . . . . . . . 6
Our Philosophy . . . . . . . . . . 3 Selected Publications . . . 5 Selecting A Search Firm 8
We work with leading firms in Chicago on retained and contingent fee searches for practice groups, partners
and associates. We have placed partners and associates in many practice areas, including —
Antitrust I.P. Patent & Non Patent Real Estate

Corporate Litigation Sports Law
Employee Benefits Outsourcing / High Tech Tax - Fed., S&L, Int’l
Estate Planning Private Equity Trade Associations
Government Contracts Public / Private Finance White Collar
Mergers & Acquisitions Structured Finance Wealth Management
We have placed partners and associates with many leading firms, including —
Baker & McKenzie Jenner & Block Miller Canfield

Bartlit Beck Jones Day Schiff Hardin
Bell, Boyd & Lloyd Katten Muchin Rosenman Ropes & Gray
Chapman and Cutler Kirkland & Ellis Sidley Austin
Howrey Latham & Watkins Skadden Arps
Faegre & Benson Mayer Brown Rowe & Maw Sonnenschein

Foley & Lardner McDermott, Will & Emery Stein Ray Harris
Gardner, Carton McGuire Woods Vedder Price
Grippo & Elden Neal Gerber & Eisenberg Winston & Strawn
Kimball One South Dearborn 773-528-7548 DID www.KimballProfessional.com

Professional Management Chicago, IL 60603 312-212-4273 Fax Frank@KimballProfessional.com
-163-
Recent Associate Placements — Among our placements in the past year are the following
A 2006 Chicago graduate (and former Division I athlete) placed from a premier national firm into
one of the nation’s strongest litigation practices.
A 2001 Harvard graduate who practiced as a corporate associate in a leading Wall Street firm placed
in one of the strongest corporate practice groups in Chicago.
A 2004 Northwestern graduate practicing in a leading mid size Chicago firm placed with a highly
selective litigation boutique.
A 2003 Yale graduate from a premier Wall Street law firm placed with the private wealth
management practice of a leading Chicago firm.
A 2006 litigator from Northwestern placed with a premier litigation boutique.
A 2002 Iowa graduate placed from a leading mid size Chicago firm into the corporate practice group
of one of Chicago’s five largest firms
A 2006 Michigan graduate placed in the corporate department of the recently opened Chicago office
of one of the nation’s most profitable firms.
A 20o3 Loyola graduate placed from a leading boutique into the nation’s leading insurance coverage
litigation practice group.
A 2005 litigator from Northwestern placed in the San Francisco office of a 1,000 lawyer firm
A 2005 Michigan graduate practicing with a leading Honolulu firm placed with a premier Chicago
firm’s real estate practice group
A 2005 Illinois graduate placed from the Chicago office of a leading regional firm into one of the
strongest national health care practices in Chicago.
A 2002 Indiana graduate and litigation associate in a national firm’s Chicago office placed with a real
estate and construction litigation boutique
A 2003Michigan graduate and white collar litigation associate practicing with a premier Wall Street
firm placed with the Chicago office of one of the nation’s leading firms
A 2006 Illinois graduate practicing with a leading West Coast firm placed in the Chicago office of a
premier national firm
A 2004 Northwestern graduate practicing in a leading mid size Chicago firm placed with one of the
nation’s most selective litigation boutiques.
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Representative Partner Placements - We have placed partners in a wide range of

practice areas with mega firms, mid size firms, and large and small offices of national firms. Representative
placements include:
A Patent Partner with a Chemical Engineering background at a 900 lawyer national firm.
A Real Estate Partner with a $2MM practice – placed in a large Chicago firm.
A Tax Practice Group Leader – placed at one of the five largest firms in Chicago.
A Benefits Practice Group Head placed at a 800 lawyer national firm.
A partner with substantial health care business, placed at large Chicago based firm.
A litigation partner placed with a premier national law firm.
A Real Estate partner placed with one of the strongest mid size firms in the nation.
A 1997 tax lawyer placed as head of a mid size law firm’s tax practice.
A corporate partner with nearly $2 MM in business - placed at large Chicago-based firm.
A corporate partner with a substantial practice – placed in the Grand Rapids office of a leading
Michigan firm.
The 2009 market -

Challenges For Candidates, Law Firms And Search Firms
The recession has changed the lateral hiring market nationally. The relentless pace of lateral hiring
found during the peak of the boom in 2006-2007 has been replaced by a thin, selective market where
employers act cautiously. Still, strong candidates with deep backgrounds are being placed with mega
firms, national firms, mid size firms and boutiques.
Kimball Professional does project consulting for law firms nationally on current trends and issues
in lateral and entry level hiring, compensation, and other subjects. It’s a subject analyzed daily and
explored with interest. We believe our perspective and advice are unique in the search industry in
Chicago and that we have exceptional relationships with our law firm clients.
In 2009, firms are more selective, more cautious, and slower to act. Firms do not hire speculatively
and they don’t hire unless they know the lateral they hire will be fully utilized. Law firms are more
concerned with academic records (even with senior associates) and they probe more deeply into the
depth of a deal roster or case list to determine the range and depth of experience of the candidate.
This is not an impossible burden for candidates. And, candidates must act more carefully as well.
They must select a law firm that is strong, deep, well financed, and a firm which offers stability as
well as a platform for long-term professional development. Candidates must not simply pick what
happens to be in vogue today - but once which works for the longer term.
We would be glad to discuss the range of opportunities in your practice area. If we are not the right
firm for you to select, we will tell you. We do not create the market and no search firm, no matter
how energetic or persistent can induce a firm to hire when a need does not exist. We’re capable, not
clairvoyant and we don’t have the power of subpoena.
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We speak weekly with our law firm clients about their hiring needs. Law firms website listings about
their lateral hiring needs are intentionally limited and incomplete (and just as often not up to date).
Half of the leading firms do not list lateral needs at their website (for a variety of reasons). Among
the remainder, probably half list only some of their needs. An exceptional search firm will have far
more comprehensive knowledge about the lateral hiring market. Leading search firms will have
certain assignments for needs of their clients that are not posted or publicly announced.
We work regularly with candidates considering moves to Chicago. In the past two years we’ve placed
lawyers from Hawaii, California, New York, Indianapolis, Washington, D.C. and other cities who
have decided to move to the Windy City.
Since 1994 we have placed partners and associates who have been asked to leave their current firm.
We are not unfamiliar with the challenges presented for associates and partners working in quiet
practice areas. A search firm creates credibility with its law firm clients by presenting candidates
with care and candor.
Our Philosophy
We want you to be as careful in selecting a headhunter as we are in identifying candidates who we

feel can succeed with our law firm clients. We work only with candidates who we believe will excel
over the long term in some of the most selective law firms in the United States. We work with a short
list of lawyers and firms - this gives both the firm client and the lawyer the 1:1 service essential to
making the right decision at the right time.
We take pride in long-term placements. The first lawyer placed - a second year associate at the time
-became a partner in the same premier Chicago firm and practices there today. Eight five percent
of the partners we have placed still practice with the same firm. The average longevity of associate
placements is 4.75 years - more than twice the industry average. Many placed associates have later
been promoted to partner with the law firm client where they were placed.
We are committed to diversity. More than 50 percent of the lawyers placed by this firm are women.
More than 15 percent are members of minority groups. The first lawyer placed in 1994 was a minority
woman associate. We have placed openly gay associates, partners, and practice group leaders. We
believe that diversity is more than a tag line — it is a priority.
This firm has been built through referrals and relationships, not mass mailing and relentless cold
calling. It’s old fashioned -but the core elements of successful matches between firms and prospects
are the same today as they were decades ago. We take great pride in a successful placement and
helping to open a door to a brighter and more rewarding professional future.
Our work together is confidential. Your resume is never sent to any law firm without your prior
approval (and it is sent only to law firms that are clients of this firm, who have a lateral hiring need
in the relevant practice area(s) at your level of seniority). We do not speculatively market
candidates. It’s pointless and counterproductive. Your pending move is never discussed with any
person outside this firm, at any time, for any reason.
We are pleased to discuss potential moves at any stage in your career. If we are not the right firm to
work with you, we will tell you. For some lawyers the best decision may be the status quo until the
market changes or their experience matches the needs of the market. For others, it may be time to
consider something other than practicing law. Again, We are pleased to speak to introduce you to
counselors with terrific experience working with lawyers making a transition beyond the profession.
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About Frank Kimball
Frank Kimball has interviewed more than 9,500 law students and lawyers and hired or placed
hundreds of lawyers and summer associates. As the hiring partner and summer program chair for
McDermott, Will & Emery and as an associate with Shearman & Sterling, he interviewed at 25 law
schools. He has 31 years' experience interviewing, hiring, and evaluating lawyers and law students.
A 1977 Michigan graduate, Frank won Michigan’s Campbell Moot Court Competition (with his
brother George), was a Note & Comment Editor of the Michigan Journal of Law Reform, and a Senior
Writing Instructor. He graduated magna cum laude from U.C.L.A., is a member of Phi Beta Kappa,
and was Second Speaker at the 1973 National Debate Tournament.
He joined Shearman & Sterling in New York as a litigation associate. He argued major appeals in
banking, tax, takeover, and shareholder derivative matters. He joined Chicago’s McDermott, Will &
Emery in 1986 as a litigation partner - and served on the hiring committee for six years, chaired the
summer program in 1988-89, and served as national hiring partner in 1990-1992.
He has trained hundreds of campus and office interviewers and presented programs for hiring
partner retreats for more than twenty AmLaw 200 firms including Shearman & Sterling, Paul
Hastings, Akin Gump, Katten Muchin Rosenman, Winston & Strawn, Jenner & Block, Gardner
Carton & Douglas (now Drinker Biddle), Arnold & Porter, and Neal Gerber Eisenberg. He interviewed
on campus at more than two dozen law schools.
Frank has presented more than 60 programs to more than 3,000 students at Chicago, Columbia,
DePaul, Duke, Georgetown, Harvard, Illinois, Loyola Chicago, Indiana, Kent, Michigan,
Northwestern, NYU, Virginia, and Washington & Lee. Frank has presented scores of programs for
hiring and managing partners and placement professionals including hiring committee retreats,
seven NALP Annual Conferences, NALSC annual meetings, IOMA Seminars, and programs for
recruiting professionals in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and other markets.
His views on hiring have been published in the National Law Journal, Chicago Daily Law Bulletin,
Aba Journal, Chicago Lawyer, The American Lawyer, Legal Times Of Washington, New Jersey
Lawyer, Texas Lawyer, and other media.
A practicing litigator in two national firms, he argued appeals in takeover, shareholder derivative,
class action, banking, tax, and probate cases and represented leading investment banks, commercial
banks, offerors and targets in more than thirty contested takeovers and tender offers.
Frank’s family includes his wife Linda Listrom — another former hiring partner, Matt (25), and
Shannon (20 a freshman at McGill in Montreal). A diehard Michigan football fan, Frank coaches
5th-6th grade football and spends August vacations on horseback in the Big Horn Mountains of
Wyoming.
Kimball Publications We Are Delighted To Share With Candidates

The Chicago Market - Each year we present programs to students at Michigan, Harvard,
Northwestern and other top schools on market conditions in Chicago. This text discusses historical
and recent trends, lateral and entry level hiring activity in 15 practice areas, examines placement
patterns of leading law schools at leading firms, and the impact of the recent avalanche in associate
compensation on hiring, advancement, and retention.
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Recruiting and Recession Realities - Available August 15, this report examines the entry level
and lateral hiring waterfront and discusses how law students and laterals should explore, assess, and
compare opportunities during this challenging market.
Beyond OCI - Special Challenges in Fall 2008 - For many law students the quest for
employment must extend beyond traditional on campus interviews. This has always been the case
but will be an even greater factor in fall 2008 because of the decreasing level of entry level hiring
through campus interviews by the nation’s 1,000 largest firms. This piece, available August 15,
describes the steps students must take, and when they must take them in order to compete in the off
campus market.
Mastering Call Back Interviews - This text, developed for programs presented each Fall at Duke
Law School, covers the interviewing waterfront. You may find them useful in understanding the
focus, strategy, and tactics of the interviewers you meet in the lateral hiring process.
Due Diligence in Lateral Hiring — This outline discusses the background information firms
should obtain concerning lateral partners and associates including academic records, employment
history, historical information on compensation, billings, realization, hourly rates, and projected
future client service and practice development issues. Model questionnaires are included
Selected Resumes - Sample resumes of experienced lawyers to give you an idea of how we believe
one should develop a resume for a lateral candidate.
To Begin Working With You

To begin working together, we need the following information.
Complete professional employment history and pre-law school employment history and a

complete list of professional honors, activities, and publications.
Your resume in PDF, Word, or WordPerfect.
Bar Admission confirmation for states and specialized bars and confirmation that you are in good
standing and not the subject of any claims, formally asserted or otherwise by your current or
former firms, clients, or other parties.
Law School transcript / GPA / Class Rank (if available) / Honors / Activities Undergraduate and
Graduate School GPA honors and activities and undergraduate and graduate transcripts for
intellectual property candidates.
A list of all law firms that you have contacted directly or indirectly on your own, through contacts,
or through search firms or any other person or service within the past twelve months.
For senior associates and partner-level candidates, a roster of client contacts, client relationships,
billings/collection/realization, and a marketing plan.
Confirmation that you have disclosed to this firm all material facts that relate directly or indirectly
to your present or future professional employment.
-168-
Requirements for Lawyers
Let's get serious when you are ready — This is one of the toughest issues in the lawyer / search
firm relationship. You may be curious about the market when the market is moribund. I may have
many things to offer you when you are content where you are. The best relationships between lawyers
and search firms often evolve over months or years. W are not offended if you want to chat about the
market. And we hope you won't be offended if we periodically touch base to bring opportunities to
your attention. But let's not get down to work until you are ready to do so.
Tell us where you have had your toe in the water in the past -- whether through a search
firm, intermediaries, or other contacts. This critical area is one where misunderstanding can damage
your prospects and slow your efforts to make a move. No matter what search firm you choose to work
with, they must have a complete list of where your resume has been submitted in the past 12 months
whether through direct mailing referrals by contacts inside or outside law firms or another
search firm. We do not work with candidates who are simultaneously working with other legal
search firms.
Once we target firms and decide to submit your resume please make all contacts with the firm
directly through Kimball Professional Management. Do not have other contacts of yours
forward your resume or inquire on your behalf. Tell them that your search firm is handling the
contact and that they should not make inquiries.
Any resume developed by Kimball Professional Management is the work product of

this firm. A candidate may not submit any resume derived from or based upon any work product
of this firm to any person, firm, contact, or employer without our prior written permission.
Let Us know all tough or bad facts — Whether it is something relating to your current
professional experience, education, or any fact or issue that could bear directly or indirectly on a
decision to hire, let me know. Many issues that you feel are troubling may be benign. Truly tough
issues, e.g., termination, can be addressed, but must be acknowledged. The best search firms have
dealt with many hard issues, and can advise you on sensitive subjects.
Omissions or Misrepresentations — We will not work with lawyers who misrepresent, distort,
or fail to disclose any material fact concerning their background including legal and non legal work
experience, employment status, employment chronology, career search efforts, references or
qualifications. The assessment of materiality or failure to disclose is the exclusive province of this
firm. We note our duties under In re Himmel, 125 Ill.2d 531, 533 N.E. 2d 790.
Let Us Know If you lose interest — Your name can be withdrawn from consideration any time.
There is no harm in doing so; firms appreciate learning so they can make other plans.
Selecting A Search Firm
Select your legal recruiter with care. Ask them for references — lawyers they have placed, hiring
partners, career services directors, etc. Take the time to speak with two or three. We would be
pleased to provide you with references from hiring and managing partners, partners and associates
we have placed, law school deans and directors of career services, and other leading headhunters.
Our law firm contacts are at the chairman, managing partner, department head, hiring partner, and
recruiting director levels.
There are often situations where we must decline to work with a candidate because their law firm is
a current client. We are pleased to recommend several recruiters we trust in the Chicago market. This
-169-
is an important decision - just as important as when you select a board certified physician. Whether
you work with us or another firm, make a careful considered decision.
Your choice of a headhunter - and the way you manage the process - will have a profound impact on
your short-term and long-term opportunities. Mistakes made because of your unfamiliarity with the
process - or as a result of working with those who cut corners and play games - can have profound
consequences for you.
At least once a week we speak with a lawyer who responded to a cold call from the ABC search firm
who told them about opportunities X, Y, and Z. The lawyer then learns that the headhunter actually
sent their resume to 15-20-50 other employers - even though many of those employers are not in the
market for lawyers at the relevant level of seniority. The headhunting firm feigns confusion - but the
purpose of their exercise is to simply grab the resume, mass e-mail it to scores of firms, and block
the candidate from pursuing options on their own or with another search firm. The candidate's
resume, usually not developed properly, has now been sent to the wrong firms, at the wrong time,
in the wrong way, through the wrong person.
We do not solicit lawyers who work with our law firm clients. It just does not make sense to do
business through the front door and indulge in sleight-of-hand back-door solicitation. We will tell
you if our client relationships preclude us working with you as a candidate.
Conclusion
I welcome the opportunity to discuss your objectives and hope we have a chance to work together.
This is a challenging market for law firms and candidates. But it is one that also presents tremendous
opportunities. It’s an era of expansion, growth, and consolidation which even during a recession
presents opportunities for strong candidates.
Please call or e-mail to arrange an introductory discussion or meeting where we can discuss your
objectives and concerns in complete confidence. You have my best wishes for success in making an
exceptional lateral move.
Frank Kimball
773-528-7548 (Office) 312-350-2656 (Cell)
854 West Webster Avenue, Chicago, IL 60614
www.KimballProfessional.com - Frank@KimballProfessional.com

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KIMBALL PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT

PRELIMINARY WORKING DRAFT

II. Foreword and Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

III. Call Back Interviews: The Students Side of the Desk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

IV. M iscellaneous Issues for Students ............................ 50

V. M aster the Firm ’s Side of the Process .......................... 79

6. Parental Leave ..................................... 95

VI. The Art of the M eal ..................................... 97

VII. Sensitive Issues . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102

XI. Kimball Professional Management

Detailed Table of Contents

Foreword & Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1-

PROGRAM PH ILOSOPH Y & APPROACH

What These Materials Will Teach You . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1-

Seven Questions Facing Firms and Lawyers

Why Do Students Choose Large, Famous Firms? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -6-

Call Back Interviews The Student's Side of the Desk

Know Your Strengths & Limitations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -18-

B. TH E VALU E AN D ROI OF PREPARATION — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -19-

Friends of Friends — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -26-

The Day of the Interview - Serve & Volley

Calling Central Casting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -28-

Questions to Ask Associates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -31

Questions To Ask Partners . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . .. -34

Questions You M ay Be Asked . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -37

Debrief, Distill, Com pare & Decide . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -43-

Debrief and Record Im pressions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -43-

Can I Find A “Perfect” Firm ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -47-

Split Sum m ers —Attractive But Dangerous . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -50-

Negative Selling - A Dangerous, M isleading, Tactic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -51-

Beyond OCI: Strategies In The 2009 M arket

READING ABOUT TH E PRO FESSIO N AN D INTERVIEW ING . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -63-

Master The Firm's Side of the Interview Desk

C, Elicit Facts — Don’t Intim idate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -87-

C. Sell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -88-

D. W hat Students Believe - A W alk Through The Garden of Hearsay . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -91-

E. Answer Questions Persuasively . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -92-

3. Listen to the Unstated Question . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -92-

F. Hot Issues This Fall - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . . . ..... . . -93-

III. The Art of the M eal - Follow Up and Closure

A. Effective Call Back M eals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . . ...... . . . ...... . -97-

C. Offensive or Discrim inatory Questions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -102-

D. Asking About Relationships & Personal Lives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -103-

E. Negative Selling Is Dead On Arrival — . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -104-

The Recession Arrives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -106-

What You Need to Know About Law Firms

B. H ow Are Firm s M anaged? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -135-

C. Hours - The Real (And Tough) Story . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -139-

Appendix A — Students' Most Common Questions About Callback Interviews

About Kimball Professional Management

Services for Law Firms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 157

Services for Lawyers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 161

Foreword & Introduction

Program Philosophy & Approach

What These Materials Will Teach You

How to Use This Text—

You Can Do This -

You Must do This -

Put 2009 In Perspective -

Services for Law Firms and Lawyers

August 30, 2009 Frank Kimball

Seven Questions Facing Firms and Lawyers

A. Why Do Students Choose Large, Famous Firms?

B. How Valuable Is Your Career?

Assignment Method Review Process / Frequency

Compensation Salaries and Bonuses

Organization Hours - Average & Expected

The energetic young associate overly eager to sell the firm

Assignment Systems Frequency and Contacts

Rotation to Departments Mentors and Advisors

Evaluations / Advisors / Degree of Client Contact

Offer Timing and Statistics Responsibility - How Much / How Fast

Typical Assignments Training - Formal and Informal

Practice Area Background Chargeable Hour Requirements

Assignment Systems Pro Bono Activities & Hours

Typical Case or Matter Size Diversity - Track Record

Work with other groups/depts/offices? Women Lawyers - Track Record

Salaries / Bonuses / Clerkship Bonuses Growth - Current and Future

Clerkship Bonuses Advanced Standing New Offices - Practice Areas

Parental Leave - Part Time - Related Recent Growth / Mergers etc