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Patient Speculator
Deep Dives with the Most
#InterestingExecutives
Anaconda Mining
(TSX:ANX)
Dustin Angelo: Not bad. Just getting ready to head out to Halifax.
Peter Bell: Great. Working from home here before you go?
Dustin Angelo: Yeah. It didn't make any sense to go in the office and spend all the travel
time to come back out.
Peter Bell: That’s a nice thing about this industry – you can work from anywhere in
some cases. The number of times I've heard executives call into conference
calls, saying "I'm in an airport here, sorry if the call drops."
Dustin Angelo: With technology today, Peter, I can do a lot of my job from anywhere.
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Peter Bell: And you’ve been doing a good job recently, Dustin. I'm impressed. A round
of applause to you and the team.
Dustin Angelo: Thank you, Peter. We're firing on all cylinders right now. The team's been
doing a great job with operations and exploration work, and we have a great
value proposition with Maritime. It is all coming together.
Peter Bell: I never thought I'd see a hostile takeover situation around Anaconda, Dustin.
Dustin Angelo: It's not something that we wanted to do. Things have been bubbling here for
a while. We have been trying to engage Doug Fulcher for going on about
three years.
Dustin Angelo: We made our first formal offer to Maritime in July of 2016. It was a premium
offer then, too. There was essentially no response then and no interest.
Then, in 2017 we had multiple discussions and I had a face-to-face with him
at the Baie Verte Mining Conference in June 2017.
Dustin Angelo: It is. Just a few hundred people, but it reflects the strong community support
for mining in Baie Verte, Newfoundland.
When I talked to Mr. Fulcher in June 2017, he said "Let's talk in the fall." Our
Chairman and another one of our directors flew out to Vancouver and met
with him and his chairman at that time. We put an informal proposal in front
of them that was basically a slide deck discussing a valuation range and the
merits of a combination. We made a premium offer at that time, as well,
although our stock hadn’t been consolidated yet and we were trading a at
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much lower share price. I’ve been quite disappointed to read the materials
from Maritime that state we are trying to be opportunistic with an inflated
share price presently since we've been working on this for over two years
and we were willing to do the transaction then when our valuation was much
lower.
After our approach was rebuffed in fall 2017, we decided that we were going
to submit another formal offer and that happened at the end of January of
this year. Our Board has given us a strong mandate to pursue growth
through acquisitions and this transaction makes a lot of sense. We've stated
to the market that we're looking to grow through acquisition, so we felt that
we had to make another attempt to secure a deal with Maritime.
There is typically enough information in the public domain for each side to
be able to get a sense for the other and agree to the terms of deal. We
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One of the things they wanted to do was put in a standstill clause that would
be in force for an extended period of time, which would have prohibited us
from executing on our strategy. These non-market terms within the
confidentiality agreement made it untenable from our perspective. Why
would we agree to that? We're an open book. All of our information is in the
public domain and we even published an updated PEA and updated 43-101
Technical Report around the February-March time frame so that all the
important information was fresh and ready for them to review.
We were fully willing to talk about our operations, but they declined. For
example, at PDAC we had a meeting with Doug and offered to give him a
presentation from our entire management team! We were all there because
the PDAC is an important event and we were ready to do a full presentation
for Doug with all our key management personnel to talk about each part of
the business. We were willing to provide that deep-dive that he wanted, but
he didn't make the time. We suggested a couple times and I followed up
multiple times during the week, but he never agreed to it. He said he couldn't
do it as he had other things to do. It was a head scratcher.
Peter Bell: Sounds like delay, delay, delay. That may have something to do with their
ongoing drilling activities – I can understand if they put out some good news
and push for a higher valuation on the deal. Although funding that work is
always tough – that recent financing was another head scratcher.
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Dustin Angelo: Peter, they’ve done exploration work and put out news since we’ve
approached them. They put out drill results sometime within the last several
weeks and the market reaction was ambivalent.
Statements coming from Maritime have claimed they have an ability to put
Hammerdown into production, but why are they drilling another project?
Why isn't all their capital being invested into that key asset? If that is the
asset that is going to generate value for Maritime shareholders, then why
are they not focused there?
If you look at the details, they're currently taking approximately 33% of their
meterage or 33% of their spending and applying it to Whiskey Valley. That's
a pretty large percentage for a non-core asset.
Peter Bell: And it is early stage stuff with recent channel sampling. I’m all for greenfield
exploration, but I agree that you have to focus on the most opportunity in
front of you. To hear you say, “It’s not what Anaconda would do.” That’s just
it – they are an exploration company whereas you are a producer. They are
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listed on the Venture and you are on the Big Board. The differences go on
and on.
Looking at their work, though, they’ve had some good numbers. Over 10
grams per tonne gold over 30 meters at surface, I believe. Those are good
numbers – you'd think the market might care about that!
Dustin Angelo: I think they're misreading the market or even underestimating the
intelligence of the market. Saying that the market will be wooed by channel
samples at a non-core project and will suddenly take their stock higher just
doesn't make any sense.
Peter Bell: They had some nice results from Hammerdown, too. The headline with 68
grams gold over one meter – not bad! Every time I look more closely into
this Hammerdown project, I just get a better understanding of why
Anaconda wants it.
Dustin Angelo: It’s not just us that want this deal to go through, Peter. We’ve talked to
Maritime shareholders who want it, too. I believe all the Maritime
shareholders should support this deal based on the fact that we're providing
the mill, the tailings capacity, and a significant mineral resource portfolio in
our asset base. We're contributing a lot with our management team, too.
Of course, we want this deal because it's a good property and it fits well with
our operation on the Baie Verte Peninsula, but this is a combination that
works for both sides. That shouldn't be lost on the shareholders of Maritime
in all this boardroom drama.
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acquisition with Goldboro. We have life at Point Rousse and we believe that
we will be able to demonstrate much longer mine life there, too. Let alone
our other assets I referred to.
This deal is not about trying to extract everything out of the other side. This
is about everybody coming to the table.
If the deal goes through, then we all stand to make a lot of money together
on the re-rating of the stock as we bring these companies together. There
could be a significant valuation lift from that. We are focused on the long-
term here. We see great potential where everybody benefits, and we try to
be consistent about that when we're either marketing this opportunity or
replying to the responses from Maritime and their shareholders.
Peter Bell: And I see that alignment reflected in the fact that Maritime shareholders
would own over 20% of the combined company. That's a substantial
amount.
Dustin Angelo: Yes, it is. And that combined company has great potential to be re-rated by
the market. If you look at the market valuations for comparable companies,
then you will see that we're on the lower end of those valuation ranges.
There's an opportunity here to tell a more coherent story that the market
will understand when you put these assets together. If we're successful on
hitting our milestones, then we should get rewarded for it.
Peter Bell: And it makes sense for me to see Anaconda pursuing some kind of a roll-up
strategy for the Baie Verte area at least as you’re listed on happening the big
board, again. I think that gives some confidence that you're more likely to
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see recognition of value over the long term because you’re in a different
ecosystem of investors in that bigger market.
Dustin Angelo: As you say, Maritime is listed on the TSX-V and, prior to the deal being
announced, the company had a sub-$10 million dollar market cap with
limited liquidity. We've demonstrated that our liquidity is increasing. If we
can bring in this deal, then the market cap for Anaconda will be higher and
we will be able to build momentum there as more investors become
interested. I'm biased, but I try to be objective about this and it seems to
make a lot of sense from a capital markets perspective. It’s certainly different
from Maritime’s development plan for Hammerdown, which is entirely
predicated on using somebody else's mill!
Dustin Angelo: That’s not uncommon today, but you have to step back and look at that. The
mill that they are contemplating using is not available, but here is another
mill, our mill, that's available right now. That seems very clear from an
operational perspective.
I would think that the path is clear as a Maritime shareholder. They have an
option to combine Maritime with another company. And not just with
another exploration company, but a junior that's in production, generating
cash flow, has a significant development project, and a full pipeline beyond
that!
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People forget that these intangibles can cost a lot of money to build out over
time. If you've already got them, then you're just plugging a new project into
what already exists. It's a different ball game for them to work with us than
for Maritime to bring in senior management, get the workforce, train them,
and ramp up.
There are intangibles beyond the people, too. The processes, the
procedures, and the operating infrastructure to actually run the company
are in place for Anaconda. We would be basically bolting another project
onto something that's already running and has got a track record of success.
That's a hugely significant aspect of the deal, particularly when you contrast
it to what Maritime is planning with the Nugget Pond Mill.
We know that Rambler is ramping up their production at the Ming Mine and
they don't have any available spare crushing and grinding capacity at the
Nugget Pond Mill. That capacity that Maritime is predicating its development
plan on right now is not available.
If Maritime had to go out and acquire that same crushing and grinding
capacity, then it would be a significant capital cost. Those costs are not
included in their prefeasibility study.
And it’s even worse when you look at the tailings capacity. Rambler is in the
middle of permitting more tailings capacity right now and they are
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permitting capacity for about six years at their planned throughput rate, but
they have a 20-year mine life. They don't have any additional tailings
capacity. They're not even permitting for their entire mine life! Now, it’s
normal to permit a tailings facility in stages, but what is that telling you? For
the next six years, at least, Rambler won’t have available capacity for
Hammerdown.
Dustin Angelo: They may have it later on, but they don’t have it within this first stage of
tailings they are planning today. Tailings capacity really is a critical issue for
these mines in Newfoundland, too.
Layer on the fact that Rambler’s permit application for a tailings facility has
no mention of ore from Hammerdown! They can't just put Hammerdown
ore into that facility – it has to be permitted in advance.
All this is just critical for shareholders. If it’s not being planned now for some
time in the next 6 years, then when is it going to happen?
We keep telling people that our facilities are available right now. We have
the available capacity in the mill. We have a tailings facility that can handle
15+ years of tailings capacity at our current throughput rate.
When you consider all this stuff, the deal becomes very clear from a time-
value of money standpoint. If they don’t do this, then Maritime shareholders
will be waiting for an unknown amount of time. You just don't know when
that capacity at Nugget Pond is going to be available.
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Peter Bell: Absolutely. And it helps to see Anaconda going through the process of
permitting for Argyle and Stog’er Tight. I was pleased to see an
Environmental Assessment for Argyle that you’ve prepared.
Dustin Angelo: Indeed. We're adding mine life. And adding life at Point Rousse is not a huge
endeavor because you're basically trying to replace about 16 to 18 thousand
ounces a year. Obviously, we would like to have more on the books, but it's
not uncommon for a mining company to have only a few years of production
on the books and stay in production for many years beyond that.
Look at the Pine Cove pit – it started as a five-year mine life, but it went for
eight years. There's certainly the possibility to continue once you start
mining a deposit. And we believe there is great mine life at Point Rousse
because we have many more targets there. We've lacked the capital over
the last several years to be able to explore out there in a meaningful way.
Peter Bell: And that's largely been a function of the market conditions. I've always been
impressed by Anaconda’s ability to survive and do any meaningful work at
all through this last decade, really.
Dustin Angelo: I appreciate that, Peter, but we’ve done a lot more than just survive. Over
the last eight years at Point Rousse when we were mining the Pine Cove pit,
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we generated $50 million in project EBITDA. That's not just surviving – that's
building something.
We generated a lot of cash flow and we used that cash flow to reinvest in
the business. We created this infrastructure that is a launch pad for growth
in the area. It makes a lot of sense to combine that with Hammerdown and
the rest of the projects in Maritime Resources.
Peter Bell: And you did it without a lot of debt along the way, so that EBITDA wasn't
ground down by a bunch of interest payments!
Dustin Angelo: We paid off our debts by mid-2013. Any debt that we've had since then has
been a small amount under government loan programs.
Peter Bell: With your recent experience at Stog’er Tight and Argyle, I suspect you have
a pretty good sense of what it would entail to bring Hammerdown online.
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thing with Goldboro. We were actually starting the permitting process there
before we closed the deal.
All that shows you two things. For one, it shows you that we find it very
important to communicate with our stakeholders to make sure they know
what's going on. For another, we don't let the grass grow under our feet. It
all just goes to show the Maritime shareholders that they stand to join a
company where management pushes ahead and is not just sitting around.
We're trying to create the value that they're expecting.
Again, we've got a very good handle on the permitting process. We'll move
it along within the guidelines of the process and are working with the
regulators to do so. Same thing for exploration – we'll have to get
exploration permits. And we believe there is exploration upside at
Hammerdown. There is a significant amount of inferred resources that will
require additional drilling to be converted into measured and indicated, and
that will be part of our plan going forward.
Peter Bell: And the possible timeline to production at Hammerdown. Maritime says
they’re going to put it into production, but they haven’t given any timelines.
That’s not surprising given the uncertainties around their plan, but I haven't
seen anything from Anaconda regarding possible timelines. I’m curious if you
have any plans to communicate anything around that.
Dustin Angelo: Yes. Based on our understanding of the process in Newfoundland, our goal
would be to try to get it done in about two years or less.
Peter Bell: That makes for an interesting 2020-2021 window for Anaconda with
Goldboro spinning up as well!
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Dustin Angelo: I think there is potential for Hammerdown to come into production before
Goldboro, just based on the permitting timelines.
Peter Bell: The scale of Goldboro sure is impressive. If it shapes up, then you could be
looking at 20 years of mine life there. All that may not be on the books right
away, but it has the potential to keep going for a long time.
Dustin Angelo: And Goldboro is an asset that gets lost in this conversation. How many
Maritime shareholders have any idea about that massive asset? It's the
elephant in the room, in my mind.
Only 27% of the ounces at Goldboro are in the inferred category and the drill
program we've been working on has focused on converting them into the
measured and indicated categories.
The drill program has also been working on demonstrating that the deposit
can grow, and it's been an overwhelming success so far. We’ve been able to
extend the Boston-Richardson Gold System down-plunge. We’ve been able
to extend the East Goldbrook Gold System along strike and down-dip on the
limbs.
The most noteworthy thing of all that exploration at Goldboro so far was in
this latest press release, that described a fault system associated with high-
grade gold at very big widths. That's something that we hadn’t seen before,
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but now it's a whole new target within the deposit. It could have some
significant implications if we're able to follow these faults and demonstrate
that they are associated with higher-grade, thicker zones of mineralization.
It'll be a huge positive to the deposit and a sign of what we can do with the
deposit. We've already demonstrated on multiple occasions that we have
extended the mineralization, which will translate into a larger resource, and
the higher-grade subdomains are also very exciting.
Rattling Brook hasn't had a lot of attention, but that was another deal that
took a while. Ultimately, the Chairman of the Board proved instrumental
there as I understand it.
Dustin Angelo: That’s right, Peter. Jonathan Fitzgerald had a relationship there and was able
to close the deal. We had been working and talking to those folks for a
number of years at that point but weren't successful until Jonathan got
involved.
Peter Bell: Did you know I introduced John and Don there?
Dustin Angelo: Yes, I did. Thanks for that, Peter. As I recall, I first met you through Don at
the Metals Investor Forum in Vancouver.
Peter Bell: That’s right. I look forward to seeing you again in Vancouver. Hard to believe
that was back in 2016.
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Dustin Angelo: We’ve come a long way since then, but things are unfolding along the path
that I described to you then. Rattling Brook is a nice addition to the Great
Northern Project we have on the Northern Peninsula. We're looking at ideas
on how to position that asset and generate some value from it. It's not the
focus right now because of everything going on at Point Rousse and
Goldboro, let alone this potential acquisition of Maritime, but we do see a
lot of potential from an exploration perspective at Rattling Brook. We're
working on some ideas on how to move it forward.
Peter Bell: I do go back to that interview transcript from that first meeting, Dustin.
There’s lots of good stuff in there. You spoke about the hub and spoke
strategy back then and I still see at play now. You talked about potentially
buying a grinding circuit for the Viking project and trucking ore to the leach
circuit at Pine Cove and it’s amazing to think of that when I see Maritime
saying now that they intend to buy a grinding circuit for Hammerdown and
truck ore to the leach circuit at Nugget Pond Mill. There’s obviously a good
idea in there somewhere!
It makes me pause to realize that you've been talking about this kind of
strategy for some time now.
Dustin Angelo: Indeed, we have. And I’d point out it’s a bit misleading on their part because
they need a crushing circuit and grinding circuit. Those capital costs are not
included in their pre-feasibility study. And they still don’t have certainty if
they can use the gold circuit at Nugget Pond, as I mentioned.
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Dustin Angelo: Peter, the Maritime pre-feasibility study doesn't include a cost for the toll
milling charge. They have a cost for processing the ore, but it doesn't include
a toll milling charge from Rambler. There are a few missing items from their
economic projections, let alone their ability to execute.
Peter Bell: Let alone Narrow Vein Mining, Dustin! We’ll save that for another day, but I
have to mention it. If any Maritime shareholders don’t know what I’m
referring to then I urge them to do their homework.
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And to ask this question about “buying a grinding circuit” again. I wonder if
you would need to buy additional crushing and grinding equipment to
process ore from Hammerdown at Pine Cove because that grinding and
crushing circuit you have now may have spare capacity in two years?
Dustin Angelo: What we're contemplating at this point, at least in the early stages, would
be to batch process. We would bring the ore from Hammerdown, which
would be at most 400 tonnes per day, to Pine Cove, where we have about
1,300 tonnes per day of processing capacity. We can batch process the ore
at Pine Cove so that we don't necessarily have to go out and buy any new
capital equipment. Over time, we can make decisions based on an economic
analysis as to whether we should set up a separate crushing and grinding
circuit at Pine Cove to process Hammerdown ore.
That approach helps us get into production for limited cap-ex because we
already have the mill running. If Maritime is building a standalone operation,
then they have to ramp up as quickly as possible to start earning as much
money as possible to repay the financiers of the new equipment, whereas
we can follow a more steady and methodical ramp-up.
Peter Bell: That has huge implications for the risk profile of the project and the company
behind it. Anyone who is really studying this stuff closely will have a sense
for that, but the problem is that many of Maritime’s shareholders may not
really appreciate some of the subtle aspects of it there.
Dustin Angelo: I hope that our discussion here can highlight some of those subtleties and
give them a way to appreciate how important they are. Some of this
information here may contain greater detail than is available in our other
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publications, but I think it’s important to provide this deep dive for those
who want it.
I will say that I believe our response to the recent Director's circular from
Maritime is pretty comprehensive and pretty straight forward. It addresses
all of the areas that may be of concern for a Maritime shareholder. I would
like to think that they would see that our responses are more than adequate
and should be able to reduce or eliminate any concerns they may have of
taking Anaconda's stock.
Peter Bell: And the YouTube video that came out recently of you speaking to the camera
was great as well. I was impressed to see you and hear what you were saying.
I was surprised – I thought some of it was pretty strong language from Dustin
there!
Dustin Angelo: This is a scenario where you don’t want to tread lightly. I think you want to
be emphatic and direct, but honest. That's what we're trying to do. This is
not a situation to take lightly.
Peter Bell: Certainly not. Amazing how Allan Cramm has experience with Hammerdown
– it all seems to come full circle. At first, I wondered why Maritime was
talking about sending stuff from Hammerdown to Nugget Pond and then I
discovered that’s what was done historically.
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Dustin Angelo: That’s right, Peter, and it certainly is something you would consider as an
option since it's been done in the past. But I think they’ve got a better option
now.
Another thing to consider is that the discussion about recovery rates. People
say that it’s better to take Hammerdown ore to Nugget Pond because they
had 97% recoveries there in the past and Anaconda’s recovery rates are
between 85%-87%, but that’s an apples-oranges comparison. People need
to understand that we use a process for the particular type of ore we are
mining at Point Rousse that requires flotation. That’s why we have a flotation
circuit at our mill.
A different process is required to get the gold from the Hammerdown ore.
You don't need the flotation circuit. We would employ a whole ore leach
process, which is the same thing that Nugget Pond did. We would bypass our
flotation circuit. We would crush and grind, and then we'd leach. That's what
they did at Nugget Pond and that’s what we would do.
The lower recovery rates we encounter at Pine Cove occur primarily because
of the flotation circuit. We would avoid the lion’s share of losses in
recoveries at Pine Cove when we bypass the flotation circuit. That’s why we
are referring to “whole ore leach” in our correspondence to the Maritime
shareholders.
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Our process would be very similar to what Nugget Pond did with
Hammerdown ore. Therefore, we would expect to have somewhere around
+95% percent recoveries of gold from Hammerdown ore.
Peter Bell: And that’s so much more of a reality than just a potential statement because
you have Allan Cramm working at Anaconda now and he was superintendent
of the Nugget Pond Mine when it was there in production.
Dustin Angelo: Yes. It’s a huge benefit to have the guy that used to run the Hammerdown
mine on our payroll. It’s very important from an operating perspective.
Peter Bell: For me, it all comes back to the difference between them as an exploration
company and you as a producer. There are different goals and objectives for
each, and the way you present yourselves to the public is somewhat
different too. People who may have been following Maritime but aren't
familiar with you may have a little bit of homework to do. As you say, the
recent circulars provide good reading.
You're doing a good job making the case for the deal, Dustin. Keep it up!
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It's important to note that we do have a plan. We know what we're going to
do, we've been communicating that to the folks that we've been talking to,
and we have communicated it here in writing. The second or third page of
the press release lays out what our plans are, at least in summary.
My phone number and email are in the press release. If there are any
Maritime shareholders that want to understand better what we're trying to
do and why this deal makes sense for them, then I'm happy to talk to them.
Call me, email me – I have all the time in the world to tell people why I
believe this deal is good for the Maritime shareholders and Anaconda
shareholders.
Peter Bell: Appreciate you taking the time to talk to me here today, Dustin. Thank you.
Disclaimers
This document contains forward looking statements and are subject to various risks and
uncertainties concerning the specific factors disclosed under the heading “Risk Factors” and
elsewhere in the Company’s periodic filings with Canadian securities regulators. Such information
contained herein represents management’s best judgment as of the date hereof based on
information currently available. The Company does not assume the obligation to update any
forward-looking statement.
Please note that Peter Bell has not been compensated to prepare or distribute this material.
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