Netscape DocumentarY

3/9/98
Tape
was really worried that we
weekend writing the hostage list urn
LT So spent the

was signed off on and Urn

to be able to know when everything
werent going

what did was wrote

we could all tell what weve done so
wanted to wait so that

and
the tree for all kinds of interesting things
and examines
tool that pools the tree

times day uh times day and uh

it to web page continuously
publishes

source urn and 40

of the free trees
now there are 9320 that are part
it tells us right

that means that they

unsanitized
When say theyre
half of them are unsanitized

in thern at all that know about urn that

kind of license reference
dont have any

and needs to be signed

third party code it
just
could be that theyre
can identify it

It could also be that urn it could also be urn

and told the right thing Urn

some files that are Mac

there are
there number of reasons why they..
..that any

files the files that

and ....etc and these are
resources that are binary for example

if
be extra careful with them because
in them so that we should
have copyrights

another in them and

of these have the bug DMP...and copyright
they some
if they

you can see..

So we can look at the list right

go

theres no license and

its not signed
So you can the owner Romero urn
LT see is

in it And its probably OK um..

theres something that says copyright

these call came from..

find out what...you can actually just go

on the file to
LT Right and you can just click

have already been written

This on bunch of tools that
look at the source pulls

So this is Steves CVS blame stuff

Caslans tree ownership tool OK so that

CVS Blame and its Donald
LT Its Steves

theres
you use Dons
tool to change it
the owners of various things
to change

file To file
you do
link here to do that OK and so how do you sign sign

number to dot and

the revision
CVS commit dash R2 and its its gonna bump

we about on this page

signed and
it
then it becomes forget

tf

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Tape 3/9/98

Its no longer evil its good or where does it..

Wheres the list of signed files

LT This is this there are signed files

Thats not great

LT Right and so as soon as we start doing it they will disappear from this list and so

all the files that Jamie did which put the NPL in are ready to be signed right now

Youve got that youve got that whole thing about how to sign and everything else

on the top of the web page So Garret could leave here and say feel

confident of you know these file..

LT Well read the web page and does it..

Does it meet the criteria and then you can do it

LT Right the check list is on the page Michael read the check list this morning

OK uh what sort of progress do we want to see on this as any kind of metric over

the next few days so we can feel warm and fuzzy about Monday...500 good files

-tomorrow or.

LT Id like to see us get as much as the cruft out of there as possible so that we could

know..

agree

LT What the hard stuff is..

MT Also do we have general agreement that you can sign file as long as that the

regardless whether the tree not..

only change youre making is
open or

LT would like to be able to do that Taras sweating that one..

TH cant think of any real valid reason why that would be bad thing to do Chris

Brian

Does it matter that the thing were going to be releasing be 2.1

MT No

Can it be 2.anything

--U

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Tape 3/9/98

LT Yes

the
Leave the Torvald were going to pull against tip

be into the
is going...might going
LT 2.1 though is...anything thats 2.1 or greater

that clearly know

new repository So you dont want to sign something you

couldnt going into the new repository

and then..
Right what Im saying is you could sign it if it meets all the criteria

MT Work on it in here

Work on it in here

finishes all of
mean tonight everyone
Theres gonna have to be changes suppose

bunkr mean the still doesnt build on Mac

this work and all the files are thing

that it meets the

LT Yeah right...it meets the the criteria for signing is very clearly

this
mean you think
is
checklist which is the criteria for going out of the building

OK to out of the building its two things you think this OK to go out of the
go

theres that fear

as complies to the checklist and if anything gives you
building it

which is also part

of the checklist that
you create ind assign it to Michael

Toy You Confess

make..
TH And any subsequent changes youre going to

were in free source world

Li Yeah subsequent mean from that point on living
any

abide by free would never want to do that

and you have to source...you

to off on every file

So has there been someone assigned responsibility sign

ones fine most of

LT Urn most of the....if we go click on the unsigned files...either

four are no owner but

them oh of course the two ones are no owner the first

who to be signing off on them so..

most of them have people are expected

Th Whoa why is
my name on those

theres that Don...

LT Cause your name is in the database tool

break zo

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Netscape Documentary

Tape 3/9/98

Michael its not the

its not the meeting says
LT though this wasnt the meeting

meeting we dont

Is this tomorrow at 130

tomorrOw 130
LT We will do this meeting at

130 bugs whoever you are..

Ml Tomorrow at is you still have

LT OK..
etc etc
bugs can we get you help etc
Ml And what are we doing about the remaining

when were to do this right

OK so Lloyd figures out going

130
MT Its going to be tomorrow after

Do 230
LT you want
to do it tomorrow at

Mt 230

230
LT all right tomorrow at

Im all over that plan next

love that plan

break

Failure to communicate

Great work Lloyd

Mt Can have something to say about that

No...I was just curious

MT AU right what else

Checklist

TH Which one

Gemini

TH laughs anything but that

John Charles
Ml What else...are we done OK mark get set go...security

about the build

in and hes worried breaking
JC Yeah so urn Jeff is ready to check

like last time so hes getting

his own car pool at 230
and having drop problems

right its all set up..

ci 57

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Tape 93/9/98
make sure he doesnt break
the tip now to
the tree is closed hes updating against

he check in
anything when

check the things to really

until Wednesday tO
he thinks it might take him
JC All right

work with..

MT What
asked him OK
work on it all night long
to me...he said hes going to
JC Listen

to it to build again
how long is it
going to take you get
conservatively realistically

and hes like well were

in and pull security code
to
with the markers all set go

still have problems on Wednesday

probably gonna

busted until Wednesday

LT The trees gonna be

the tree..
No we cant have

Wednesday Its probably gonna be

the tree is busted til

JC dont think its gonna be

hes gonna have some problems..

were broken until Wednesday

the non-tree build
is if
Ml Well what would be ideal

JC The ideal would be what

broken until Wednesday

Mt The non-tree build is

and the tree..

Try protect

JC Well thats easy

MT What shock laughter

and there might be some problems

hes gonna work all
on it night
JC So hes says

again tomorrow
not
working on this all by himself is
to me that Jeff
TH So at this point
it seems likely

we should have FE
be build related problems
of resources if its gonna
good use

in helping him
people jumping

Ml Yes yes yes

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Netscape DocumentarY

Tape 93/9/98
and or some sub set
clear it
has said that he has cycles maybe he can
TI-I So MacAfee

be in this
to necessary
think Mac people are going
of Garrets team has cycles...1

endeavor..

think
whos gonna have long night
Well Jeff isnt the only one

need
this al on his own we to get
time to wait for Jeff to solve
TM Well we dont have

him
lots of people helping

although
ask people to work night
all
not that reasonable to
LT The question is its

weekends and want to do it all night

to schedule their say they
choose
people may
issue it takes nine
is the baby making
its really not cool to do that and secondly

it

guys making one baby there...is

month yeii-lceew so its the

MT Its not going to help to add more people..

unless you want to buy him

else looking over his shoulder
LT Yeah yeah someone

to bring him
food
could maybe have someone assigned
dinner mean we

in takes hours were

with his check in unless his check
TM Well when hes done

were right were gonna

fast turn around on what the results
gonna have pretty

we could have his

broken and at that point
of that have gotten
have hug list things

start assigning people

LT Thats reasonable to help the bustage..

to
likely if we can tell him OK you can reduce
the scope
Right cause very

and well send you some warm bodies to worry

worrying about uh Windows or

like that all nght cause hes probably gonna

about the other platforms or something

breaks the time doesnt it

break um mean...Mac all

Hell find something

action item right laughter

OK so whos gonna functionaliZe..this

Dlvi OK Tara you and me

TM yeah

DM all right usual thing

OK

cCf
57

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Tape 3/9/98

extract until after Jeff done

So the Java people are not going to

ahead of your
Well this is an interesting issue thats the next one youre jumping

schedule

Ive about security So is Jeff in the office is there phone number

got question

you can call him at and actually..

JC Yep Jeff has been in his office since about noon

MT And if
you have security related question talk to Jeff

JC Uh asked him those questions and he this morning and he said he says he can

in thats no problem so we should just close the munge

leave munge strings there

to didnt realize that the dial up code was going out for 331
bugs assigned you...he

he was gonna worry about that one later so..

MT The what code

JC Ihe dial he and steve armor are gonna worry that out think its better
up code/so

to an RC code than base 64 or something like that and he thinks that

replace

before he checks in his code he thought that he could throw us most of his
even

theres or were left and he needed to check the stuff in

bugs only like that

for the or so but

supposedly so It looks like it might be painful next day

MT Well if the job books in now are we done with security

LT Laughs

closed for security that supposed to continue

Theres an issue the trees still is

how indefinitely

TH was not aware of this Wednesday deadline so well have to take reevaluation

Ml its not Wednesday deadline

when
JC when you gonna be done
is
Its not deadline...I asked Jeff are
it
gonna

work again he said uhh Ill work on it all night to night and work really hard

and then asked him OK really conservatively how long is it

gonna take

tih...there might still be some stuff going on Wednesday

oI cy

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Tape 93/9198

of when is he done but for the short term we closed

Theres secondary question

close out set of number of bugs because

the tree this afternoon nobody else can

can in and check in their

theyre just waiting for the tree to
open so they go

change..

Th Right

And to know when that is And guess we have to functionalize that action

item too yeah woo fun for us

check done because we dont

TH And we have to keep it closed until its initial in is

want to have to force him to re-update for whatever reason well once his initial

look The Java the vast

go back and have
done he can in stuff
check in is

of the changes for Java are going to be meg files stubbing out NAB Java
majority

so those things shouldnt be each other mean

TEC modeules applets stopping

heave look make sure that theyre distinct and then go from
we can at the set

there

yeah Cause Id like to get the tree open this evening

so
JR We were little nervous we already had Chris Yei doing poll for verification

off chance has to back out or

were going to integrate with that on the that security

something terrible happens we want to be in position to move ahead as quickly as

Also anticipating that this is going to slow us down little bit we are
possible

windows if the tree up

doing we are trying to finish the for tonight actually opens

tonight we could probably drop windows and UNIX in were Trying to get that

straight we have Rick Potts working with us so were trying to plan contingency

based and being cautious But were we really think were in

plans upon history

wracking thing for you were

in
even its nerve really
very good shape though

the verification mode of our stuff and were verifying cross platform were not

expecting the final build to be ou.test

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Tape 3/9/98

MT So we. .when do we believe Jeff will clear so the Java people can start Is that

tonight or is that Wednesday

TH believe Jeff will have some subset of clear which will not be completed tonight

MT When will the tree be clear enough for the Java people to start checking in

Why dont we call Jeff now..

Hes gonna pull hes doing merge and then after the merge hes gonna do

check in

JR Has he verified Has he done...

break

Ml Well there was some question about how who was saying this and how...how

true all this was This is the way...it has to be something where you cant you

could not reverse engineer and figure out what their decal was Were in

discussion about this right now Lloyds proposal is to concentrate on making the

right thing which is something that is shippable and ship and apology on 331

rather than shipping

jI\ .t-
LT That code we can say/Lib license and then well send you the patches and

you..

MT Right sign this NDA

LI ..and then put that as part of the apology

JC But its not just are they going to partition

its in fact new access modes...its

already 11% now

break

If we decide thats what were going to do As soon as we make the decision then

we should post the results

MT All right

l-
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Netscape Documentary
Tape 93/9/98
....3
Becausethatwasone...f
4-

JZ OK so if we do ship this apology when are we shipping the mail source

JZ Thats not very good answer because when we ship that apology there should be

date..

LT Well maybe somebody will volunteer to help with this

We pulled the first calendar quarter out of our hind ends..

JZ We cant do anything if we dont have give them the source

MT Well lets not say something that we dont mean

Oh no dont say another date yet

MT No and whos gonna work on that now until the end of this quarter mean the

reason its not done now is theres no one to work on it are not going to
People

fall from the sky in this building to work on it

you Im just showing you the lunacy of doing that again right it was

an exercise right...if we dont ship the mail source on 331 we have lied no were

in damage control mode If we tell them were sony were going to ship the mail

source little bit later weve already lied to them we have to tell them how much

later or theyre just not going to believe us

All right then how do you quantify that is it uh sometime later this next quarter

like as saying some time later this next

year..

OK Michael says he feels more comfortable with that sometime in 1998

MT If youre asking me right now given the state of the universe right now wouldnt

put anything up on this cycle

break

Page 10
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98

LT If you want the source well give you the source but youre going to have to pay

Im sorry...we
cant do anything about it
right now And were working to rectify

that but it be later on the

year before we can rectify it Thats the truth right

JZ The point is we fucked up by saying were going to give you the source to

Netscape Communicator We said that We didnt say youre gonna have to pay

Neo-access to get the source to Netscape Communicator we said were giving you

Netscape Communicator on 331 So if were not giving the Netscape

Communicator on 331 we need way to address that

And think Lloyd just gave pretty good way..

think its really good way of addressing it

JZ By telling them that they have to pay NEO access before they can get the code

That is not going to fly

Were being very explicit about saying were...releasing the source for third parties

to which we have the right to release that and this is the third party we dont have

the right to release it so thats real good work around

JZ That does not even approximate matching peoples expectations joke

dont think so think weve been very explicit about what been telling people

JZ No promise you this is not the case We said communicator and theyre not

getting line of source code that has anything to do with E-mail from us unless

they pay neo-access money

MT Or any other communicator components

JZ Right

MT And frankly theres no calendar it

might...jumbled conversation

LT Yeah but what the difference between this and Java

JR You built this in own head the wrong Yes we lied...

up your way

0q/6 i3O6

Page 11
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Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98

think its mistake to its even

say this is lying or misleading think mistake to

discuss it in that context Now we can screw up about delivering and we can find

out what we can deliver..

MT But you need to look at this from the outside world The outside world..

JZ Im not discussing it in this context just to be inflammatory or because Im upset

about it Im telling it to you in these tenns because this is what the public reaction

will be guarantee it

Because people explicitly asked us are you shipping Java and we said No were

probably not theres big problem and they said are you shipping just the

browser or are you communicator...we said the whole

shipping absolutely

communicator were really serious communicator communicator communicator

read communicator
my lips

LT So put the neo-access contract

up on line...why cant you put contract on line It

just shows why we cant ship the source This is where we can ship the
it
says

source

My view is dont make the mistake..

Ml OK..time out...weve now timed out on my imaginary allotted time for this

discussion

laughter

Dave didnt hear you volunteer

actually laugher

Yes will take the Neo-access database out of the source code laughter

MT Wheres the document is it

hanging off of Daves source page

So sent her out an e-mail

Its actually off the client

hanging source page go to client slash source...its not

Daves though its mine

Did you send it to Leeds in e-mail

Yes sent it to Leeds

Page 12
Netscape Documentary
Tape93/9198

particularly important point that is not clear yet at least dont know what the

answer is is version numbering We have to decide not to decide something there

consciously but right now dont understand the plan thats being proposed urn

whats going to be called what version on Oso theres meeting today at

think to talk about that some more...and whether or not were going to
say anything

about road version number road and what we on features

map map will disclose

JZ Version number for what what exactly are you about are
talking you talking

about the communicator version number or..

product

TH No the source

The question is...were going to release the source and on the thing it said this is

the source for well is it

really the source for do you know what will

be know dont know my that never know til much closer an

expeiience4is

uh..

Somebody has proposal for us calling it source and..

We can decide to not call it

anything but lets decide that..

So have another that have to to but

meeting go at
my preference is to label

thing with the date rather than version number you know were giving away

Netscape source to Communicator as of 331 98

Source 98..

general laughter

Thats open source 98

Then it would ship to the year 2000 laughter wed have to call it source 96 in

order to get the name straight

Another key know make

piece is the road map sign you trying to sure we dont

set ourselves up surprising people with the 4x road map 4x products later and

whats the right balancing act there so we disclose the amount of information
right

MT would really like to never ever hear about that class of problem

Page 13
Netscape Documentary
Tape9319198

TH Amen and hallelujah

MI In terms of were trying to make source code that we can give away fro free and

they...the bits are right and Im not worried about what name all the bits have

Its not..not necessarily the name Ijust want to talk that

through its the road map

so that we should up with the bits or the 406 bits its not oh well whats

going on over there

LT It also gives us lingo to post to the news groups and things like that

MT guess youre right

Daves saying its kinda nice to have plan

Mt So wheres the
key point off of this page

break

Mt Everybody and everybody and when say everybody mean everybody needs to

be this room an of what is what

in to the
get understanding signing process is

means when you sign etc etc so we can walk out and after that we can start

beating up on people to make them sign and they dont what the heck
say signing

is that

Til Wheres the bull horn

MT have the bull horn

TEl OK the bull horns coming out tomorrow

MT To me these are the two most important things to come out of this meeting is we all

those two
gonna make sure
that and
agree things are happening youre in whatever

your universes are that we support that effort right And tomorrow at 130 if the

bug count is not small theyll be some even national which

deeper emergency

havent though of yet laugher

Page 14
Netscape Documentary
Tape 3/9/98

Define small

MT Define small Not big laughter

JC Are you going to send mail to people who have bugs assigned to them

TH He keeps doing that

MT Yeah Ill do that too OK are we done Thank you

\Vhat time is it

MT 420pm

general post meeting conversation

of 23 qz i7
TH have on
my list of to have 12 bugs that we care about by Friday we have

narrowed it down that much what do you look like The rest of these are place

holder bugs for Doc or whatever..

DM All right should have been doing

my job well..

TIE think potentially if were about

all the same that looks like we down to 60

DM Well the problem is Ive got all the noise from Jeff on it.

TH From Weinstein

DM From Jeff so were screwed right

TH Well have status on those tonight right for most of those for all but some

handful..

DM Yeah Im looking at
probably 15 or 16 on my list

TIE That puts us at 30

DM Yeah how many on Michaels hes go the big number right

TH dont know. .do

you have an idea of what you of real bugs that
list
you care

about by Friday is

MT 59 Im looking at it
right now

The whole list

Orour list

Page 15
Netscape Documentary

Tape9319/98

MTI The whole list

TH The whole list

DM 59

TH That sounds about right

DM That was good call 60 huh

TH Did call it or did call that

DM Was close or what

TH All right all right so rule

P3s make sure that they

P3 or below reviewed all the to
MT Well this is just not

were all things that..

TB That should be P3s

these are all good to

good so these are all good
Ml That should be P3s and theyre all

go 59

TH So thats good number

Ml Down from 100..

TH Were making progress

MT This was the easy 40

TH Right

we fixed three and found 10

MT It could easily be higher tomorrow because

break

asked Tar this morning

DM And on that whats your warm and fuzzy on that because

when we walked out of the 11 oclock was...

/7
conversation
general post meeting

4rr
Pagel6
 it -I

Netscape Documeflta
Tape93/9/98

and
is what is Mozilla.orgS piece
Well think that what we want to separate

the Client piece

that we are delivering
from Netscape that is eng
thats
anything

Ivif Correct

this day release

make sound like look is
So you want to it

have versioning
why we dont want to any
Right which is

look we want to
have close the loop with him and say
Thats fine think we just
to

its
do source code release
make sure that this is youre gonna every time you

an archive of whats
is on Mozilla.org as
based date and refer to
gonna be on you

released do it
by date as well
been you

OK fine so next topic

called Mozilla communicator

Wait is it
gonna be

have the meeting now

you want
do to
have meeting at or
Do you want to the

that need to be in that meeting

were one or two people
Well think missing

Who else do you need

be there
Jamie should be there an Michael Toy should

Jamie and..

do and this theyll go yes

Tara these and say we want to this
Well if goes to guys

and Bye and well be done

say

Yeah thats fin

to
So dont know if you need meeting say yes

Thats fine

road is client eng

think that any discussion about map

and..
Yes is client engine

influence over
me the extent that we want to exert
CPB .decision that to to

would like to do this is what

and say hey this is what Netscape
Mozilla.org

Page 17
Netscape Documentaiy

Tape 93/9/98
to convince the web that this is
we need to be able
Netscapes direction is and

like else
Just everybody
good thing

was very vague and we do not say

was that
Well Daves Key thing

and Daves talking about

two different points theres source road map
These are

the 4x road map

Correct

Two different thing

but
need source road map internally
And those are two different thing...we

want announce the 4x road map

I...Netscape
wouldnt to

Thats what Im saying

out already
Because we have that laid

Right we have...

do this balancing act for

to try and
think its scary
mean do you getting

Weve got source code

weve got
lets keep it
simple keep it separate
everything

the lines cross Keep it simple

weve got 4.x never let

we have
he doesnt see that

Right and we
have that he just says in my messages

and Im saying that we do We say that

dear road map for at least our products

on the current code base

continue do product on the code base
were going to to

of Net code
while were doing parallel development

we have that but

with you 100% Theres road map right and
This is.1 .1
agree

source announcement mean we have

not be of this its not
hat should part

40 code base that doesnt mean we

well be developing our current
road map
here
announce 40 41s here 5s here and 07 is
gonna be
should

told Dave is if were worried hes

Thats precisely
what Im saying and what also

announced how far in

like well we need to be very clear
said no we never

we will people when

advance...no well you know that Im saying laughter
tell

this time to not

branded products and we determined at
were ready to announce

-T

Page 18
Netscape Documentary

Tape 3/9/98
of
will will give them a-rthrdirectiOn
source code release
mix it
up with the

have were ahead of the fame we dont

whats in the code because we to provided

this interesting new interface

want people to build the product and say oh theres

and ahead of it but dont want to

chase
we want to you we want to cut to the get

405 coming until were ready

out we have 41 coming out we have out..
lay

think Daves the only one saying want to see

think were all in agreement

clear road map..

well beat up Dave and well be done

So oclock well get together

OK Daves coming to the meeting

Yes hes the one who wanted to call that meeting

conversation
general

about what this stuff is and thats

And then we need to talk to some extent

we haul that into this whole

right because if
almost like sub-announcement

source announcement were saying OK source release components aurora aurora

into this long sting

aurora screen and shot...and it just get you get
positioning

hard to comprehend so putting in two short ones OK source

thats really

announcement release components and the separate

one is OK heres

think the hard part is those

aurora and heres what aurora means stringing

together
.._ .6 pc
fear is well we can make it more of an aurornnouncement
guess my only

think that were releasing product if we..

just dont want people to really

break

Page 19
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Ml Its somewhere between better than the worst and not below my expectations

mean though we could have been lot closer than we ended up but it feels like

the wheels are moving rather than you know spinning in mud so you know

tomorrow we measure how true peoples statement were when they said oh yeah

Ill be done tomorrow so if that was basically true well be OK if that was

basically wasnt true then we need to find bigger hammers or more bodies or

something ut

Page 20