INTERVIEWS:
"FHEBIACKSCHOLAR
ROBERT F. WILLIAMS
black scholar: You were away in exile
for quite a long time. Though we were
always aware of your presenceand impact
on the black liberationmovementand your
persistentpromiseto returnto thiscountry,
it stillmusthave taken more than ordinary
courage to come back. Why did you come
back to the United States?
Williams: Well, you see, the problem is
that I didn't leave on my own. I was
forced out of the country. I would still
have been in the South, because we had
quite a movement going there. But the
most positive aspect of my return to a
racistAmericacould probablybe called an
opportunityto demonstratethe extent of
the black man's commitmentto our ever
widening struggle for liberation. I hope
to set an example that will serve notice
thatin face of white supremacy,terror,un-
just and cruel imprisonmentand threats
of cold-blooded and savage death, the
black man can no longer be intimidated.
I hope to bring home the point that the
day has gone foreverwhen the bullying
white man can frightenthe black man
out of existence. He has the power to
assassinate but not to intimidate.
black scholar: So you did not come back
expectingjustice in American courts. We
rememberyour appeal in 1969 on behalf
of "Afro-Americanmilitantswho refuse to
sell out and who cannot be intimidated''
and in oppositionto the "vicious campaign
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to destroy effectiveand potential ghetto
leaders" such as Max Stanford,Huey New-
ton, Rap Brown,LeRoi Jones,Martin Sos-
tre, Herman Ferguson, Cleveland Sellars,
John Kenyatta and Lee Otis Johnson.
You urged that black Americansmust be
inspiredto display the same determination
in safeguardingthe human and civil rights
of our oppressed people as white racists
are to legally lynch us. You knew about
the legalisticrepressionof black leaders.
Williams: Yes, I did. I knew that a mad
dog can always be expected to act like a
mad dog. So it is time to cast away illu-
sions about peace, justice, democracyand
the redemptive potential of the savage
racists. Actions speak louder than words.
The black and the weak are always vic-
tims of the white and the strong. Thus,
John Bull's (England's) sterile words of
censure against a minorityof white squat-
tersand poachers on the black man's soil of
Africaare quite in contrastto his "law and
order" enforcedby bullet and bayonet in,
say,tinyand independence-loving Anguilla.
But then, the contrasthinges on the dif-
ferencebetween black and white and the
tyrannicalnature of white power. Like
father,like son, that's the way it is with
John Bull and Uncle Sam, and as far as
the black man is concerned, he has no
legal or human rightsthat white terroris
bound to respect. So, what we have is a
living lesson in black and white contrast!
It is excessive asininityfor black people
THE BLACK SCHOLAR MAY, Ì970
 Robert F. Williams, authorof NegroesWith Guns,is knowninternationally
in the black liberationstruggle.In 1961, trumpedup chargesof kidnapping
were broughtagainstWilliams,who receivedpoliticalasylumwith his wife
and two sons,firstin Cuba, thenChina and Tanzania. Duringhis exile,Wil-
liamscontinuedhis revolutionary activitywithbroadcastsand as publisherof
The Crusader,a monthlynewsletter. Williamsreturnedto the United States
a fewmonthsago. The Committeeto Aid in the Defenseof RobertWilliams,
Box 666, Detroit,Michigan48206, has been formedfor his legal defense.
This interviewwas recordedon April23, 1970.

to expectjusticein a hostilewhitejungle the thingstheydid to you,and yourlong,

society.
In thefirstplace,I am notnow a crim-
inal,I have neverbeen a criminal, and the
onlytimesthat I have ever been in jail
werebecauseofmyfightforjustice.It's a
matterofjustice.The falsechargesagainst
me werenotmotivated by criminal activity
onmypart,butstemmed frompoliticaland
racial persecution.I have as muchright,
or more,to live in Americaas Nixon,and
no amountofintimidation can forceme to
abdicatethisinalienableright.So, it'snot
a matterof justice.It's a matterof trying
to lyncha blackman and tryingto white-
washit and makeitlookgood. AndI don't
knowof any appeal to reasonthat'sever
been able to reallysave a blackmanwhen
the white mob has been really set on
lynching him.
Occasionally,a black man mightbe
justlyset free,or justlynot prosecuted.
But that'sjustoccasionally, and it's an ex-
ceptionratherthan a rule. It's something
like gambling;and justice should be con-
stantand expected,and not thingof
a bags. We had steelhelmets. We had ob-
chance. In fact,in my chance,my case,
even if theyturnedme loose,it wouldn't
be justice. Not only am I not guiltyof
anycrime;I've alreadygonethrough all of
this harassment,and I've been handi-
capped in manyways,had my life dis-
rupted. They can't give me justicenow
forwhatthey'vealreadydone.
black scholar: Beforewe get on withall
THE BLACK SCHOLAR MAY, 1970
hard struggleto return- as well as what
changesyou have noticednowthatyouare
back-would you tell us about the move-
mentyou had in "North Carolinathatup-
set thewhitepowerstructure so?
Williams:Well,by now I have one charge
fortryingto get integration and another
charge trying get separation.But at
for to
thattime,I was fightingforintegration. I
was the local presidentof the NAACP
down in Union County,NorthCarolina.
We had a longseriesof struggles withthe
whitepower structurefor the six yearsI
was president.You see, all the while I
had advocateda policyof armed self-de-
fense. Also, I had been a candidatefor
mayor. Now, that'snot consideredvery
muchnow,but in thosedays theydidn't
even do thatin Northern towns.Besides,
we had our own militia.
black scholar: Whenwas that?
Williams: As farback as 1957,when we
spentthesummerin foxholes behindsand-
tained gas masks. And we had a better
communication systemthantheyhavenow.
In fact,we had betterorganizedself-de-
fenseforcesthantheyhave now. Thiswas
too much for the whitepower structure.
Theyfelttheyhad to makean exampleof
me.
black scholar: Still, we rememberyou
saying once that "violenceand turmoil
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withoutstrategyand meaningfulgoals and
objectives amount to fruitlessenergy9in-
asmuch as the oppressoris organized and
knowswhat he wants. What were you and
yourforcesfightingforin 1957 and around
the time of the Montgomerybus boycott?
Williams: First, we had started to fight
for an end to all formsof racial discrim-
ination. But we came out with a ten-point
program which included all of what the
passive resistancemovementwas askingfor,
such as access to food facilities,buses and
public toilets.We asked thatthe whiterac-
in the educa-
ists abolish all discrimination
tional system. We asked for fair employ-
ment. We asked forequal rightsto receive
welfareaid fromthe Welfare Department,
and equal Aid to Dependent Children.This
also is not consideredas anythingoutstand-
ing now, but in much of the South then,
theydidn'tgive aid to black people; it was
reserved for whites only. We fought for
the rightof black people to have this. We
had to fightforthe rightof women to have
supportfortheirchildren,even when their
husbands were in prison.
We also foughtagainstbrutality,and we
triedto raisethe standardof livingforblack
people. Also, we tried to eradicate race
discriminationin medical facilities. This
antagonized the power structureno end,
and it went all the way to Washington.
black scholar: Could you tell us about
one of the cases that went to Washington?
Williams: Well, on one occasion we
stopped an urban renewal program.
black scholar: That far back?
Williams: Yes, we got a dose of urban re-
newal early,when it firstcame out. They
came through the communitywhere we
lived, part of the black community,the
section where 90 per cent of the black
people or more owned their own homes.
Some had homes worthas much as thirty-
five thousand dollars in terms of what
money meant there then. On the other
hand, there was another section of the
black communitywhere they didn't even
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have indoor toilets. The urban renewal
bypassed the houses that didn't have in-
door toilets and went through the com-
munity with the $35,000 homes. These
they condemned for urban renewal. You
see, this also was where the political
strengthof the black communityand the
militancyand the voters were and where
they could affordand had the guns.
Well, it so happens that about this time,
when President Eisenhower was visiting
India as the guestof Nehru,he made a big
pronouncement there that he and the
United States wanted all of the people of
Asia to have decent housingand food. We
saw this as an opportunityand sent a tele-
gram to Prime MinisterNehru (who had
been a guest of the NAACP and knew
what it meant) and asked him to please
convey the message to Mr. Eisenhower.
We signed it as the NAACP.
We expected, somewhatapprehensively,
that Mr. Eisenhower would go into his
theoriesto call it a fraud. And we expected
him to really jump us when he got back.
But a strangethinghappened. When Ei-
senhower came back to this country,he
personallycalled an Afro-American named
Dr. Snowden, who was workingin hous-
ing, and asked him to contact me and to
assure us that he was just as interestedin
our homes as in the people of Asia, and to
rest assured that there wouldn't be any
urban renewal in that communityuntilthe
law had been fullycomplied with. He said
to let him know if I had any problem.
Actually,it was carried in the press, the
Afroamerican.He had made a special call
fromthe White House. That stopped the
urban renewal programdead in its tracks.
black scholar: What ever happened to it?
Williams: That's been over ten years ago,
and it just bogged down and was finished
in its tracks. But the local officialshave
never forgivenme for that. We were al-
ways embarrassingthem. We had invited
students,exchangestudentsfromJapanand
Britain, and correspondence journalists
fromoverseas. We invited them into the
THE BLACK SCHOLAR MAY, 1970
communityand gave them tours, taking
themintothe homes of the poverty-stricken
people so thattheycould see how the black
people live in America. This also became
a source of embarrassmentto the United
States thattheyneverforgot.Plus, we had
armed people, and we had a lot of clashes.
black scholar: That was priorto the col-
lege student non-violentsit-in movement,
whichmostpeople knowto have originated
in your state, North Carolina. But most
dont know that you anticipated the sit-in
movement.
Williams: The sit-ins started across the
countrywith the studentsin 1960, and we
had startedas farback as 1957. Then, too,
we were demandingmore than the break-
down of barriersto Jim Crow public fa-
cilities,as we said earlier.
black scholar: Iťs apparent why they
would try to frame and lynch you. But
how did you manage to get away?
Williams: Well, at that time I went
throughCanada; from the United States
to Canada; and throughMexico into Cuba.
Add to that the fact that not only did I
leave North Carolina; they had an all-
points alarm issued by the FBI. And they
had told the local people. In fact,theyhad
them waiting at the courthouse, a mob
waiting for me, thinkingit would be a
matterof hoursbeforethe greatFBI would
catch me and returnme to that town. Of
course, if they had been waiting there at
the courthouseuntilnow, theywould have
been dead. It was also a source of em-
barrassmentto the FBI. Not only that,
they were running all over the country
searchinghomes,contactingpeople I knew
all over the country. They had assigned
fivehundredFBI men. I had been in Cuba
forquite a while. In fact,the reason I de-
cided to let themknow I was in Cuba was
that a lot of my friendswere sayingthat I
should tell themI was in Cuba so thatthey
would stop coming to their homes and
houndingthem.
black scholar: You were in Cuba about
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fiveyears,thenleftforChina. Why did you
leave Cuba?
Williams: Well, I had some political
differenceswith the party. And as a re-
sult,I leftand went to China. There wasn't
any hostility,or any personal feelings.The
whole thinghad to do with black national-
ism. We had differenceson the race prob-
lem in the United States. The Partymain-
tained that it was strictlya class issue and
that once the class problem had been
solved through a socialist administration,
racismwould be abolished. I thinkracism
encompasses more than just class struggle.
I believe now that it is a part of the Amer-
ican way of life. Iťs a part of American
psychologyand the mentalityof America;
and a change in the systemwill not abolish
racism. As a result,I was told that they
couldn't support black nationalism. But
they always treated me quite well, even
up to the time I left. As an individual,
everythingpossible was done to make my
life comfortable. Still, I couldn't see any
need of being in exile if I couldn'tconduct
some type of struggle. So I left Cuba and
went into China.
black scholar: But even when you were
in Cuba, you were tryingto returnto the
United States to conduct that struggle.
Williams: Yes; I had told the Cuban of-
ficials when I firstwent to Cuba that I
would returnas soon as I possibly could.
Actually,I made an effortto returnto the
States in 1965. But the State Department
refusedto give me a traveldocument. And
at that time,theyhad just issued passports
to all of the CommunistPartyleaders who
were under indictment, includingGus Hall.
The Supreme Court had handed down a
decision that no American citizen can be
denied a passport. I discovered that there
was a differencein their attitude toward
Communistsand black nationalists.I was
a black nationalist,so it was impossible at
that time for me to get any kind of travel
document fromthe United States.
black scholar: How did you finallymake
it back?
PAGE S
williams: I lived in China for threeyears
after that. Anyway,I left China on the
way to the United States and stopped in
Africa,so that fromTanzania I would be
able to obtain a travel document. I had
some difficulty there,in gettingpermission
from the U. S. Treasury Department to
bringmy personal effectsinto the country.
I was told at the U. S. Embassy that they
mightnot want me in the United States.
When I asked them why, they said that I
was too hot. I told them that that was
theirproblem.
In the beginning,they didn't want me
in Tanzania, and had put pressureon the
Tanzanian governmentto force me out.
But I stayedthereforsixmonths,and when
they discoveredthat I didn't want to stay
in Tanzania but was on my way to the
United States, they said that I could stay
in Tanzania as long as I wanted to.
So, I got to England on the way back to
the United States and was pulled out of
the line in Customsand Immigrationin the
airport in London. First, these two men
came up and flashed their identification.
Said they were policemen and that they
wanted to talk.
We went in the immigration room,
where theysaid theywere going to search
me and my luggage. I asked them why
was this necessary,and they said it was
because my FBI, "because your FBI has
informedus that you're carryingfirearms
and ammunitionto the United States."
I asked them how many firearmsand
how much ammunitioncan you carry in
a suitcase. So they started to search me.
They took out my fountainpen and held it
to my face and said they were going to
open it and that if it exploded, I would
be the firstone to be killed.
They were rathernervous about it, and
evidently believed what they had been
told. Then they went throughall of my
luggage. Since they didn't find anything,
they called the ImmigrationAirport Po-
lice. After they finished,another group
came in - the Metropolitan Police - and
went throughthe same procedure. When
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they finished, another group came, and
said it was the CriminalInvestigationDe-
partment.
Through all of that, I was asking them
what did theyhave to do withit,inasmuch
as I was in flightto anothercountry.Also,
the BritishEmbassy in Tanzania had told
me I wouldn't need a visa in transit.Still,
theykept me thereforthreehours,late in
the afternoon,with differentones search-
ing me and tryingto decide what they
were going to do.
black scholar: What did they decide
to do?
Williams: Finally, they said they didn't
have any place for me to stay that night
(my flightwasn't due out until 10 o'clock
the next day). That was the only flight
daily fromLondon to Detroit. Then they
said that because they didn't have any
place for me to stay, I would have to go
to Pentonville.
When we arrivedat this place, about 14
miles across London, I told the man,
"This looks like a prison." He said that
it was. I asked him: "What about my leav-
ing on the plane tomorrowmorning?"He
said: "You stand about as much chance
missing that plane as the Queen of Eng-
land" (meaning that he wanted me out
of England).
But the next day, when the time came
forme to leave, nobody at all came to pick
me up. I lay in thisprisonincommunicado
forthreedays.
black scholar: How did you finallyget
word out?
williams: It happened that a young
African was in there. He was being re-
leased one day when I was waiting in
the receptionroomin hopes thatsomebody
would come and get me. But they never
did show.
Anyway,thisyoungman was comingout
of prison, and the warden asked him if
he had all of his personal belongings he
had checked in, and he said no. What was
he missing?"A Mao book" (talking about
THE BLACK SCHOLAR MAY, 1970
a littlered book of quotationsfromChair-
man Mao).
The man became indignantand reached
under the desk and got the book and
threw it up on the counter. Then he
pointed to me, and said: "There is one of
your buddies from China. He's a Maoist,
too." Of course, he meant this in a sar-
castic way. But he didn'tknow thatthatlet
me know that this was a reliable brother.
So I turnedto the Africanand asked him
if he was going out. He said yes. I asked
him if he would tell the people in the
black communitythat I had been taken
off a plane to the United States and was
being held incommunicado. He said he
would. So I told him my name and where
I was going. At that point, they tried to
push him out of the room past me and
close the door. I put my foot in the door.
Then the warden told the guards to
take him back and lock him up. He was
saying, as they were taking him away:
"Don't worry,brother;I'm going to tell it
as soon as I get out."
black scholar: How long did they keep
him in?
Williams: I really don't know. But the
nextday the news had gottenout. That was
when a group came to see me in prison-a
sisterand two young brothers.They came
in and said they represented the Black
Panthersof England. Then theyturnedto
the warden, who was standingwith them,
and said: "We're going to freeour brother,
eitherpeacefullyor with force. It's up to
you to decide."
This shook the man, and I myselfwas
a bit surprised,because I didn'tknow they
had a Black Pantherorganizationin Britain.
Least of all, that theywere so militantand
outspoken. It turnedout thattheyhad also
contacted otherblack groups and the out-
spoken faction of the Asian population;
also the BritishCivil Liberties Union and
some otherwhite liberals.
All of these groups started demonstra-
tions. But in the meantime,I had gone on
a hungerstrike,whichI maintainedforfive
THE BLACK SCHOLAR MAY, 1970
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days. Because I didn'tannounce thatI was
on a hunger strike,they didn't take the
first two days seriously. They merely
brought in the food and I didn't eat it.
I didn't eat and I didn't drinkany water.
So, on the third day, they got worried
because I hadn't taken any fluid. They
moved me out of the prison into the hos-
pital and brought in two doctors to ex-
amine me. The doctors said, well, a per-
son could make it withoutfood for many
days, but not withoutwater.
black scholar: Most persons who go on
hunger strikes take some kind of fluids.
Why did you decide to drink no water?
Williams: Well, I never believed in this
passive idea of a hungerstrike. I have al-
ways assumed that if a person went on a
hungerstrike,thatmeant everything.Later
I found out fromthe Britishofficialsthat
that was why they became so alarmed.
black scholar: What did theydo when
theybecame alarmed?
Williams: First, they sent a prison chap-
lain to see me, and he asked if my refusal
to eat was due to religious belief. I told
him, no, it was due to principle. I also
told him that I rememberedreading about
how they had taken black people into
took
captivityas slaves- how his forefathers
my forefathersinto captivity. And they
fed them. They fed them just enough to
keep them alive. And also they subju-
gated them. But I couldn't understand
how a man could stay alive under captiv-
ity. So I told him that he and the rulers
of Britainmightbe the same as theirfore-
fathers,but I am not the same as my fore-
fathers. I told them that they couldn't
take me into captivitylike a beast in a
cage; that they would either have to kill
me or set me free. They would eventually
have a dead body on their hands in any
case, because I wasn't going to submit to
theircaptivity.
black scholar: What charges had they
lodged against you to justify or ration-
alize imprisonment?
PAGE 7
welliams: Theyhad openlyadmittedthat protectionofthepassenger, sincetheyhad
theydidn'thave any chargesagainstme, read one protecting the carrier.Theybe-
thereforeno reasonto confineme. I told came rathernervousand left.
themand the chaplainthat I didn'tsee Then,on the fourthday, theycame in
anythinghumane about taking away a the late afternoon about fiveo'clockand
man'sfreedom, withoutreasonfordepriva- said thatI was leaving.I askedthemhow
tion,and thenpretending to be merciful could I be leavingwhenthe plane leftat
to thepointofbringing himfood. If your ten in the morning.At the airportthey
opinionof himis such as to cause you to finallytoldme I was beingsenton a flight
deprivehimofhis liberty,thenyou should to Cairo. I said Cairo,where?They said
be willingto deprivehim of his life- Cairo,Egypt.I toldthemI had justpassed
withoutcause. through Cairoand had no needto go back;
This had thema littleshakenup. So I thatmyticketwas paid forand called for
told the chaplainthatI didn'twant any- the factthat I was being transported to
thingfromEngland,that England didn't Detroit,Michigan. They repeated that
owemea thing, butmyfreedom.Andthey TWA was afraidto carryme out. I asked
couldn'ttake my freedomaway and give why,and theysaid thatTWA was afraid
me something else. I would hijack the plane and endanger
theirpassengers.I toldthemI had already
black scholar: Aside fromyourhunger been every
place thatpeoplehijackplanes
strike,whatfinallymade themgive in, or to.
giveup, on keepingyou in captivity?
black scholar: As a matterof fact,you
Williams:Well,theblacks(West Indians, once issued a statementfromChina to
blackswho werebornin Britain,and the blackAmericans, statingthat:"Aircrafthi-
Africans)were demonstrating aroundthe
jacking should be discontinuedamong
jail and at TWA,withwhomI had a ticket blackmilitants!'
to Detroit.AlsowiththemwereAsiansand
whiteliberals. The demonstrations were Williams: I remember.Plus, where I
verybig, and they each
started You wantedto go I alreadyhad a ticketto; so
night.
could hear themthroughthe walls, over it wouldn'tmakesenseforme to hijacka
thewalls and intothejail. plane to Detroit. Anyway,I asked them
So the warden came in and said the if theyweren'tafraidI would hijackthe
reasontheywere holdingme imprisoned plane to Cairo,since I didn'twant to go
was because TWA had refusedto flyme there,to get to Detroit,whereI wanted
out of Britain. I repliedthat I had al- to go. While theywere debatingit, one
readypaid forthe ticket,thattheycould of the servicetrucksrammedthe airplane
havedeniedme therightto flyat thepoint out on the fieldand the airplanewas de-
of origin,but could not stop me in mid- layed. So theytookme back to prison.
flightand dumpme in a foreignland un- The followingday, the fifthday, they
less I had done something to warrantit. broughtme back again to the airport.I
They didn'thave any chargesagainstme, asked themwherewas I going,and they
and when they sold me the ticketthat said Cairo. I then asked them if they
was a contract.So I toldhimthathe had had broughttheundertaker. Theywanted
betterget in touch with TWA and tell to knowwhat the undertaker had to do
themthatit'sgoingto costthema million withit,and I said becausehe was theonly
dollars. one who wouldbe able to put me on that
Finally, that afternoon, representa- plane to Cairo.
two
tivescame fromTWA. I told themthe He informed me thathe was underor-
samething,and demandedthattheyread ders fromthe Ministry of ForeignAffairs
that sectionof the code relatingto the to use forceif necessary.I explainedthat
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forcecould get my body on the plane, but
not me. They had lined up about fourteen
policemen along the hall, while the man
came over to repeat his ordersto use force,
on the table, and asked if he was ready to
on the table, asking if he was ready to
start. He looked at me and he looked at the
othermen, and I told him once more that
he would have to kill me in London to get
me on that plane.
So theywent out into the corridorfor a
caucus. Then he made a phone call and
came back and said they wouldn'thave to
use force if I would agree to go back to
prison. I said I had been in prison all
during my stay in England, so they took
me back.
Then the doctor and the priest came
back again and asked me if I would please
accept some juice. They even suggested
thatthe churchcould supply the juice and
my food, so I wouldn't have to accept it
fromthe prison. I replied that the church
couldn'tfeed me in a Britishprison.
Finally, on the sixth day, they came
and told me: "You are leaving." I asked
them where to and they said to Detroit.
I asked them how, and they said they
would take me on a ship. The shipping
line had agreed to take me. I told them
I had an aircraftticket and wasn't going
on a ship. So then they said, well, if you
agree to let the CIA escort you (some
man in the Embassy from the CIA in
London). I told them, no, I would not
submitto any American arreston foreign
soil; Americans didn't have any jurisdic-
tion over me there. So, finally,they said
that TWA had agreed to provide a private
plane which would flyme to Detroit with
my lawyer. By now, people were demon-
stratingat the U.S. Embassy as well, and
some of the Black Panthersof England had
broken into the Embassy grounds and
threatenedthe Americanofficials.
Well, the next morning, because the
people were planninga big demonstration
at the airportat the time I was to leave,
they drove me straightup to the plane,
skirtingaround the airport. They had my
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lawyer waiting there, and another black
man unknownto me in Africandress. He
startedshakingmy hand as I came up and
introducedhimselfand followedme on the
plane. Later, he said he was a vice presi-
dent of TWA, and began to explain that
TWA was the most liberal airline, with
more blacks working for them, including
black stewardesses and one or two black
pilots, a record he called progressive. He
said he hoped I would be considerate of
TWA, and I replied thatI didn'tsee where
theirpolicy was considerateof me.
With nobody on the plane (it flew a
special route across the North Pole), they
said the trip (with full regular staff on
the plane) was costingthem twentythou-
sand dollars worth of services for a five
hundred dollar ticket. I said that was
theirhard luck. But theybroughtus on in.
black scholar: What happened when you
got back to the United States?
Williams: I was met at the airport in
Detroit by the FBI, arrestedand taken to
the Federal Building for fingerprinting.
While the FBI man was fingerprinting my
right hand, another man came up and
slipped a subpoena in my left. He said he
was a U.S. Marshal and this was a sub-
poena from the Eastland Committee,the
Internal SecurityCommittee. AfterI left
court,I had to go and set bond and then
I got a subpoena to Washington. It took
three of them before I was forced to go
down there. It wasn't a federal offense,
but the FBI had gotten into it because
they were tryingto help the North Caro-
lina officials. They said I was a fugitive
from justice-a fugitivefrom injustice.
black scholar: Yes, we noticed in the
Detroit Free Press this morningthat some
college studentsat the Earth Day protest
here at Michigan State yesterday called
Governor Millikan a "racist pig" because
he agreed to extraditeyou to face kidnap-
ing charges in NorthCarolina.
Williams: You see, like the rest of the
power structure,it was more than they
can digest-the fact that I not only left
PAGE 9
the United States, but went fromCanada,
Mexico and Cuba, to China and also Viet-
nam, through the Soviet Union. Their
idea, theirfeeling,is that a niggernot only
was able to escape, but he went abroad.
And abroad I was treated like I might
have been the head of state, the head of
the United States. In fact, I was able to
go places theirpeople couldn't go.
As a resultof this,all of the reactionaries
in the governmentdeveloped an intense
hatred for me. Everythingthat happened
in this countrywhile I was abroad they
blamed on me. They claimed I was in-
volved somehow in Watts, the incident
there,in Detroit, and in Harlem; in most
of the uprisingsin this country,according
to J. Edgar Hoover.
black scholar: How do you suppose that
the uprisings in Watts, Harlem, Detroit,
Newark and the like began?
Williams: These things came out of the
community.I thinktheywere spontaneous.
I learned about them throughthe news-
papers. Also, they had many conspiracies
going-the so-called Statue of Libertyplot,
the so-called plot on Roy Wilkins and all
of these people. I learned about it through
the newspapers like other people.
But they still always kept this up, be-
cause of their hatred, and because they
wanted to try to tie the black movement
up withthe Communistmovementabroad.
This is another reason I wanted to come
home; it's knockedthe blocks out fromun-
der J. Edgar Hoover and much of his ef-
fortsto link the black movementin this
countrywith the internationalCommunist
movement. So now they don't have me as
a link to tryto push this further.
black scholar: We rememberreading a
copy of a so-called secretFBI reportabout
two yearsago (which generallydidnt seem
very currentat the time-or accurate be-
fore that) where there appeared to be a
kind of fixationon you as an "extremist"
Williams: It is traditionalAmericanismfor
thewhiteracistpower structure to brandall
who workuncompromisingly forblack lib-
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eration and social justice as extremists.
There can be no such thing as "extreme"
methodsemployedagainsta beastlyoppres-
sor in a noble enterprise,undertakenon
behalf of social justice and the liberation
of wretchedslaves. America was founded
on the extremebeliefthatcut-throats, pros-
titutes, criminals and social scum from
Europe had a rightto slaughterand mas-
sacre an indigenouspeople in a white cru-
sade of extending"Christiancivilization."
America even has the audacity to piously
referto these original land grabbers and
thug killersas "blue bloods." This is really
the extremeof extremism.
black scholar: Right on. Many of the
thingsyou were doing in the 1950V-then
regarded as extreme-have now grown
popular,among blacks at least. Since youve
returned,what changes have you noticed?
Williams: There have been some changes,
but they are mixed, like a chart with ups
and downs, zigs and zags, some things
slightlybetter,some worse. At best, it is
a patchwork progress-if you can call it
progressat all. I don't thinkanythinghas
really helped the great masses of black
people.
The greatestchange has been in the at-
titudesof blacks, particularlythe so-called
black bourgeoisie. Many of themhave be-
come more conscious of what's going on-
they'vebeen forcedto- and are more will-
ing to identifywith our people. More race
pride is especially apparent among our
youth, more co-operationand more mili-
tancy.
When I left,therewas a big nonviolent,
pacifist movement.I was just the oppo-
site of that. Of course I believe in pacifist
and passive tactics when these thingscan
be fruitful;I believe in any method that
will work. But I don't believe that a man
should subject himself passively to the
violence of oppressorsand of tyrantswith-
out a violent response in the effortto
defend himself. Most people believed that
way- or so they said- but they merely
whisperedit and cowered under,theysaid,
for fear of losing white liberal funds. So
THE BLACK SCHOLAR MAY, 1970
in those days they condemnedme; includ- our people. I thinkthis is an outgrowthof
to
ing, my surprise, a lot of today's most the new militancywhich too often con-
outspokenadvocates of self defense. demns the so-called Uncle Tom without
Back then the going thingwas what the tryingto win him over. The Uncle Tom
white man had told them: to turn the today may be the militanttomorrow.This
other cheek and appeal to the conscience is no time for superficialdivisions among
of the white oppressor. I knew that you us. The cause of our survivaldictates that
couldn't do that; you can't appeal to the we unite all of our people and ask aid
conscienceof a beast, when you're dealing fromwhereverwe can get it. Those who
with savages and brutes and tyrants. So wrap themselves in the raiment of self-
thisis one major thingthatI see. And it is righteous political sages and arrogantly
a change that has influenced the black proclaimthemselvesthe true believers and
bourgeoisie and the power structure, saints of purityare the antithesisof social
though the power structure lately has be- progress and transformation.There are
come even more repressive. But in some many shades in the spectrumof color. To
ways the fact that the black man was no limit one's scope of perception simply to
longerpassive and would fightcaused the black and white is to become a victim of
power structureto give more attentionto stupidity.We must also guard against be-
the black man. ing erroneouslyswayed by the Fabian his-
trionics of put-up black Marxists whose
black scholar: What has been the out-
come of this new black awakening, set political line just so happens to coincide
with the politics of the CIA.
against increased white oppression,for the
black liberationmovement? At this historicjuncturein our struggle
for survival, human rights and self-de-
Williams: Well, in the wake of the upris- termination,progressiveblack nationalism
ings,theblack man had thepower structure offersthe greatesthope for unity of pur-
prettymuch on the run-had he been well pose. Progressiveblack nationalismis anti-
enough organized and persistent in his imperialist, anti-monopolycapitalist and
goals (really understoodwhat he wanted anti-racist.It stressesdeliverancefromboth
and pressed hard for it), but I thinkthat the white man's tyrannyand his paternal-
we lost the initiative. ism,and it can be a powerfulcohesive fac-
As a result,we are enteringdangerous tor that motivatesour people in a common
times when the governmentis seizing the cause towards a common goal.
initiative,planning apparently to use re-
black scholar: Is it possible to have any
pression rather than eliminate the social
ills causing the conflict. More and more forms of co-operative sruggle with other
rightsare being taken away and more and oppressed groups?
more rights given to the police. This is Williams: Yes, it is essential for us to co-
leading to a police state in which a black operate with and solicitsupportfromother
man is going to be on the bottomrung of sectors of the deprived, but to relinquish
the ladder. This is all in the name of "law our rightto act in our own best interestfor
and order" for the sake of "peace in the survivaland well-beingis criminaldefault
streets." These are very difficultand cru- on our part. We must collectivelybe our-
cial times that we are facing, as the re- selves. We collectively must lead our-
pressionis going to grow sharper. selves. We must collectivelyadvance our-
black scholar: What can black people do selves. We must collectivelypreserveour-
to prepare for and offsetthis increasing selves and must collectively respect and
repression? love ourselves. Without concerted action,
Williams: One thing, I've noticed too our cause is lost.
much bickering,too much conflict,among black scholar: You mentionedthat pro-
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gressiveblack nationalismis, among other about by a person until he has changed
things,anti-monopolycapitalism. What do himself,is transformed inwardly.Also, the
you thinkabout so-called black capitalism? change in others can have some influence
on ours. So, the biggest thingI see is sel-
Williams: It's one of the things creating
fishness.We've got to fightselfishness,ego.
disunityand is a part of the establishment's And we've
effortto recognize the leaders of certain got to fightit to the point that
we'll stop feeling that we've got to have
groups. No doubt, black capitalism and the final word; that if we don't have the
minorityenterprisewill grease the pot- final word, then let everythinggo down
bellies of a selected few tokens,but the
the drain and be destroyed.
vast majorityof our people will remainthe
victimsof vicious and cruel Americanism. We also have got to stop feeling that
In fact,beginningwith the Reconstruction we've just got to be the leader, that if I
am not leader, then we don't need one.
Era, therewas ushered in a new hope for
the so-called emancipated black slaves of black scholar: This seems to be the prob-
America. Infantileblack capitalismwas en- lem in Africa,too.
couraged. The power structurepromised
equality before the law, black suffrage Williams: Yes, thereare fartoo manystates
and equitable participationin American in Africa-little vest pockets. Africa has
society. The brevityof that new mood of been Balkanized. The Africanpeople are
democracyshould be a tragiclesson of his- fond of each otherand can get along, but
tory. The Americanrecordspeaks foritself. the leaders are the ones who, in conjunc-
Is it any more righteousnow than it was tion with the imperialists,are responsible
then when those celebrated, "liberty-lov- for the condition. All of them will say
ing" racist gentlemenhypocriticallyfash- that theywant Africanunityand to create
ioned the Declaration of Independence and a united Africa. Then each one feels that
the Constitution? Capitalism is ruthless, he should be the leader of a united Africa.
cunning, swash-buckling,murderous and That's also how I see our movementin
cut-throat.To expect black capitalismand the United States. Instead of devoting
minorityenterpriseto be dished out on a ourselvesto our salvation,everybodytalks
gold-plated serving platter is tantamount about unityand wants unity,but the lead-
to hoping to lay claim to the mythological ers do not want unity,or a united front,
pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. unless it's under their direction.
That's also one of the reasons why I
black scholar: After that, it would be have come back into the country. I don't
superfluousto ask you about Nixons new feel like it's necessaryforme to be a leader
policyof"benignneglect." But let'sgo back or to lead somebody. And I've made no
to the matterof unificationfor a moment. effort.In
fact, I've tried to get out of as
What can we do towards achieving unifi- much
leadership as possible. I think we
cation? have to start some place. So, if all of us
Williams: Well, the firstthingis that peo- start settingthat example, the sooner we
ple who have a common destiny must de- can get down to what needs to be done.
velop a common outlook and common so- We also need to have more communica-
lutionsto problems. We hear a lot of talk tion, more exchanges, to talk and discuss
about "black revolutionaries";but as black our problems. Forgetabout who the leader
revolutionaries,our firsttask must be to is and get down to the problem. The idea
revolutionizeourselves,transform ourselves. is that we must be willing to fit in wher-
That is the most difficulttask of a revolu- ever we can, whereverwe will, wherever
tionarybecause, otherwise,a revolutionary we're needed, whereverthe situationdic-
can'tbringabout change. Revolutionmeans tates. If we don't reach that stage, we'll
change. But no change can be brought nevermake it. The situationwill workout
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the leadership.I thinkwe need collective thinkwe shouldbecomeso belligerent and
leadership,anyway. hostilethat we say we can't accept aid
black scholar: Speakingof the need to fromwhitey,or honky,or whateverthey
havemorecommunication and the parallel want to call him. I don't thinkthat'sa
good strategy,and I don'tthinkit'sa revo-
problemsof egotismin Africaand Afro-
America,whataboutthe problemof com- lutionaryone. If you'retryingto win a
municationbetween blacks on the two battle,youmustconcentrate everythingon
thatbattle.
continents? We remember yourthousand-
mile-plusmotorcycle ride across some of black scholar: Whatabouttheproblemof
themostruggedterrainin Africa. whiteallies? That'sa muchdebatedissue.
Williams:Afro- Americans mustmakea de- Williams: Well, you have to realizethat
termined and consciouseffort to counteract thereare all kindsof allies-temporary al-
the imperialistwhiteman'spropagandain lies and permanent allies. Some are only
Africa.Our people muststriveforcloser goingto go so far,and you have to know
relationswiththeAfrican peopleand their that. On the otherhand,you can neutral-
devotedleaders. We must exertspecial ize a potentialenemy,makinghim an
effortto spreadthetruthaboutAmerican- enemyyouwon'thave to fight.I thinkwe
ism as it relatesto blackpeople. More of mustadopt thatattitudeand startlooking
our people mustendeavorto visitAfrica at our problemsfromthere.We've got to
and to makecontactwiththe youth.We brace ourselvesforsomeharddaysahead.
muststirourselveson behalfof counter- black scholar: You failed to comment
acting the man's well-plannedand fi- upon the contention amongbrothersover
nanced effortto alienate our people. whether,when theyare employedby a
Whilewe concentrate greatefforton im- whitefirm,letalone a government agency,
provingour relationswith our African theyare "working forthe man."
brothers, we shouldnotneglectothersym-
and potentialalliesin othercoun- Williams:It is erroneous to thinkthatone
pathizers can isolateoneselfcompletely frominstitu-
tries. We muststriveto offsetthe racist
distortedimage of our tionsof a social and politicalsystemthat
power structure's exercisespower over the environment in
people and our predicamentin savage and prema-
America.We mustbecomemoreconscious whichhe resides.Self-imposed
of the relativityof the black man'sprob- ture isolation,initiatedby the oppressed
againsttheorgansofa tyrannical establish-
lemsin Americato thoseof the deprived
ment, militatesagainstrevolutionary move-
peoplesof the worldwho are our natural
allies. We must give more attentionto mentsdedicatedto radicalchange. It is a
foreign relationsand thewinning offriendsgrave errorfor militantand just-minded
to our side. youthto rejectstruggle-serving opportuni-
tiesto join the man'sgovernment services,
black scholar: Further,in that connec- policeforces,peace corpsand vitalorgans
tion,therewas something yousaid a while of the power structure.Militantsshould
backaboutacceptingaid wherever we can. become acquaintedwith the methodsof
But todaythe blackmovement appearsto the oppressor.Meaningful changecan be
be in a quandaryor dilemmaoverwhether more thoroughly effectuated by militant
to accept moneyfromwhite sources or pressure fromwithinas wellas without. We
on
even, occasion, whether to work for a can obtainvaluableknow-how fromtheop-
whiteinstitution.What is yourview on pressor.Struggleis not all violence. Ef-
thismatter? fective strugglerequires tactics, plans,
Williams: When we can get aid without analysisand a highlysophisticated appli-
we should accept aid cation ofmental aptness. The forces of op-
stringsattached,
whenand whereverwe can find it. I don't pression and tyranny have perfected a
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highly articulatesystemof infiltrationfor
underminingand frustrating the effortsof
the oppressed in tryingto upset the unjust
status quo. To a great extent,the power
structurekeeps itself informedas to the
revolutionaryactivityof freedomfighters.
With the threat of exterminationlooming
menacinglybefore black Americans,it is
pressinglyimperativethat our people en-
ter the vital organs of the establishment.
Infiltratethe man's institutions.
black scholar: You frequentlyrefer to
youth,and you have long been an idol to
many of them on college campuses. For
instance,as earlyas 1967,studentsat How-
ard Universitydemanded and got your
film,"RobertWilliams in Red China," and
your book, "Negroes with Guns," placed
in the universitylibraryagainst the admin-
istrations will. What is your advice to
black youth?
Williams: There is so much. But aside
fromwhat I have been saying-which gen-
erallywould apply to all age groups-it is
imperativethat revolutionary youthunder-
go personal and moral transformation. about what is not relevantin black studies
There is a need for a stringentrevolution-
ary code of moral ethics. Revolutionaries
are instruments of righteousness.Violence
applied in the pursuit of justice is what
distinguishesrevolutionaryviolence from cuss and what we plan, what our ambitions
that which is committedby tyrantsand
villainousthugs. Clean up the ghetto.Stop
fratricidalwarfareand conflict.Discourage
the agents provocateurs,Judasesand crim-
inal elements. Prepare for a struggle of
survival.
black scholar: Speaking of youth, now
that black studies have been largely co-
opted and corrupted,some have claimed
that it is no longer a revolutionarygoal.
Do we need black studies?
Williams: Black studies, yes; but what
black studies? Some black studies are no
improvementover white studies when rac-
ist slanderersof blacks are allowed to se-
lect new material that will have the same
effectand serve the same purpose as the
old. It mustbe borne in mind that a great
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portionof material produced by black in-
tellectuals under the aegis of the white
.powerstructureis anti-blackand pro-white.
White publishersare the most forcefulad-
vocates of Americanism.
Black studiesyes, but theyshould be in-
spiringand uplifting.Such studies should
encourage wholesomefamilyties,morality,
dignity,courage, devotion to freedomand
high ideals. They should serve to raise
the intellectuallevel of all who participate
and should eulogize the good attributesof
our people ratherthan serve as a surrep-
titious method of propagatingintellectual
pornography.It is a firstmagnitudeshame
that at this late date of our poignant and
turbulentsojourn in oppressive America,
even some black nationalistsstill permit
white racists to define what constitutes
black history,black leadership,black mor-
ality, classical black literature,art, music,
politics, aspirations,alienation and black
capitalism. I think we have had enough
of the whiteman's versionof white studies.
Why accept his version of black studies?
Also, we've got to do more than talk
and in academic life. We've got to start
talking and thinkingabout what is rele-
vant and what is not relevantin the Move-
ment,particularlyinsofaras what we dis-
are as a people. Also, we have to start
thinkingalong the lines of survival, be-
cause the white man is going to be very
desperate.
black scholar: On survivaland the white
man, what is your conclusion about the
futureof this country?
Williams: I thinkthe situationis going to
get much worse,startingthissummer. And
I thinkthat somewherein 1970,the United
States will undergo a drastic change. It
will never be the same again. It may not
be completelydestroyed. It may not fall.
But it's going to be obvious to everybody
by the end of this year that it's on its way
out and thatsomethingelse is goingto have
to be substituted.
THE BLACK SCHOLAR MAY, Ì970