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7 Defendants.
____________________________________/
8
MOTIONS TO ENFORCE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT
9
BEFORE THE HONORABLE DAVID M. LAWSON
10 United States District Judge
Theodore Levin United States Courthouse
11 231 West Lafayette Boulevard
Detroit, Michigan
12 August 21, 2018
APPEARANCES:
13
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: Dimple Chaudhary
14 Sarah C. Tallman
Michael Wall
15 Natural Resources Defense Council
1152 15th Street NW, Suite 300
16 Washington, DC 20005
1 TABLE OF CONTENTS
2 MATTER PAGE
4 WITNESSES:
5 STACY WOODS
Direct Examination By Ms. Tallman......................... 20
6 Cross Examination By Mr. Kim.............................. 44
Redirect Examination By Ms. Tallman....................... 62
7
ROBERT BINCSIK
8 Direct Examination By Mr. Kim............................. 69
Cross Examination By Ms. Chaudhary........................ 77
9 Redirect Examination By Mr. Kim........................... 94
10 ALAN WONG
Direct Examination By Mr. Kim............................. 99
11 Cross Examination By Ms. Chaudhary........................ 112
Redirect Examination By Mr. Kim........................... 134
12
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 Detroit, Michigan
3 2:50 p.m.
4 * * *
14 behalf of plaintiffs.
16 plaintiffs.
18 Honor.
20 Honor.
23 defendants.
25 Snyder.
2 State defendants.
7 positions today.
22 information that you believe that you need or that was wanting
11 information.
16 that we -- that the City was not producing timely and accurate
1 any way to the first motion at all; for example, the provision
13 in some sense.
21 of the time frame within which the City should verify faucet
11 but you also argue about the methodology with respect to some
9 calculations that have been put in the papers and that you
10 will hear more about today from our witnesses, but I think
13 dispute.
17 off base, the City will run out of money to complete its
23 homes; right?
3 28,400.
5 10,000, then.
16 and the funds, the original funding that was set forth under
4 goal, and the goal the parties all share, to remove the lead
6 possible.
15 last week that contained a list of all the addresses that they
18 those homes.
4 service line, then the City dug it up and they found a copper
5 service line.
8 shows that the City has excavated nearly 2,000 service lines
9 where the water card records suggest or indicate that the line
23 bias in what's going on, and it's further evidence that the
24 City's hit rate to date, which had been lower than they
6 witnesses unless the Court wants the full argument now on the
7 motion.
12 data. She will also talk about the ways in which the City's
15 that the City is drawing from the data so far and also from
16 its maps are unsupported and are insufficient to draw the very
18 the City's estimates are off by even 2 percent, they will run
21 offering.
3 with the last statement that was made by Ms. Tallman that the
7 been off, but it's been off in the other direction. So to the
8 extent that the plaintiffs are raising this red flag that the
11 The reason for that, your Honor, is that the City has
20 occurs when the homeowner has the work done on their own as
22 past.
24 switchover?
19 only information the City had was the information that was
10 lines that have not yet been excavated either this year or
12 the City made the best projections that it could at the time
13 that it made them. And I believe that it will also show that
20 settlement agreement.
14 what it's turned out is that the City has done that. The
19 But the actual hit rate for this year has been far below that
12 source for those funds, but we also believe that there is zero
14 fiscal year.
22 manager for the City's Fast Start Program; and Robert Bincsik,
24 THE COURT: Does the City still run the Fast Start
3 Program.
5 correct?
9 THE COURT: All right. Did you say you had a witness
15 first witness.
17 Woods.
21 * * *
22 STACY WOODS
25 * * *
3 Would you state your full name and spell your last
4 name?
6 W-O-O-D-S.
11 good.
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. TALLMAN:
17 NRDC.
19 scientist?
24 critiquing data quality and assumptions you can make from that,
1 data.
4 and we spoke to the City prior to the hearing and they have
7 exhibits that have been filed into evidence and refer to them
8 by their numbers.
11 attached to the motions, but you can refer to them as you wish
15 BY MS. TALLMAN:
18 expert in statistics?
19 A. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
3 BY MS. TALLMAN:
5 A. No.
7 A. No.
9 A. No.
15 plus two apples to know that there are four apples, you don't
17 Q. Thank you.
22 A. Yes. I have been asked to review the reports and the data
25 an exhibit.
4 opposing counsel.
9 BY MS. TALLMAN:
11 A. I have.
16 response paper.
19 BY MS. TALLMAN:
24 report?
1 Paragraph 30 Report.
8 A. Yes.
10 understand and interpret the various maps and data sets that
12 A. Yes.
15 you could please read the last sentence and then the -- in the
16 first paragraph and then the item listed under number one.
19 not reasonably likely that there were more than 18,000 lead
21 households."
24 reviewed?
4 report.
6 another exhibit?
12 BY MS. TALLMAN:
14 A. Yes.
18 A. I have.
1 40 percent."
3 A. I do not.
4 Q. Why not?
7 Q. And do you know what Mr. Wong was basing those numbers on,
10 phase 5 in 2018.
1 Q. And just so that the record is clear, can you -- have you
10 predictions?
12 that they are moving from older areas to newer areas and
15 January 1st.
19 Q. Why not?
2 said that in the mid 1950's the City of Flint started using
6 places, say, in the late 1950's and how does that compare to
14 another document.
19 BY MS. TALLMAN:
20 Q. Dr. Woods, have you -- if you could open it, the binder,
22 Exhibit 1-1.
23 A. Yes.
25 A. I have, yes.
2 A. I have, yes.
3 Q. What is it?
7 also shows the outcome for the addresses where they did the
8 work.
12 Q. And then the next column, the second from the left?
15 that column?
21 page 178.
5 both the public and the private side of the service line.
7 the column third from the right, if you could read the title
8 of that column.
11 column?
13 that address and what they found on the public side of the
14 service line.
15 Q. And then the column next, so the second from the right?
18 many?
21 service line.
23 blank?
25 that address.
3 those two columns that we're discussing. What does that mean?
5 that address they found copper on both the public and the
6 private side.
8 think, 300 pages. Have you done any analysis of the data in
9 this spreadsheet?
13 A. Yes.
16 PhD, MPH.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you describe for the Court the analysis that you did
23 briefly?
1 any, historical water card records there were for all of those
2 addresses. And then for the addresses where they did the work,
6 spreadsheet?
7 A. 7,332.
10 spreadsheet?
11 A. 2,484.
19 1,866.
20 BY MS. TALLMAN:
22 A. Yes.
25 A. Yes.
3 copper-to-copper?
4 A. 75 percent.
13 lines.
16 lines?
19 that?
21 BY MS. TALLMAN:
24 for the future hit rates in the remaining hit rate in phase 5,
25 2018?
2 addresses, out of the more than 7,000 addresses that are slated
5 lines.
14 Q. And based on the data in the spreadsheet are the hit rates
20 in phase 6.
22 Have you reached any conclusions about what methods the City
2 use all of the information that you have, the predictors that
3 the City says will help you predict the outcome of lead and
4 galvanized steel service lines, and the data you have on those
6 for how you use those predictors moving forward and come up
9 the City has offered as relevant and how this refining -- how
11 A. Sure. So the City has said that they use these historic
16 already have the outcome, and then use that to weight how much
18 forward.
23 coefficient.
25 statistician.
2 precise and how much weight each water card record outcome
8 have?
10 yes.
12 BY MS. TALLMAN:
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And in paragraph 15 --
17 THE COURT: Is it 3 or 4?
1 BY MS. TALLMAN:
7 $250,000 to $350,000."
10 A. No, I do not.
11 Q. Why not?
14 consulting and asked them what their rates were. And their
15 rates ranged from $100 an hour to $250 an hour, and that range
25 A. No. The City has already done so much of the work that
5 data for the work that they have done to date. So the data
16 analysis could really help the City come up with a precise and
21 that have been submitted and I'll ask you a couple questions
24 172-3, there are some maps in the back of it, if you could
2 A. I have. Yes.
4 A. I have.
6 maps support the City's predictions about the hit rate for 2018
7 and 2019?
15 Q. And just for context, what are each of the dots? What do
19 material there.
21 to?
23 service lines.
24 Q. And red?
1 service lines.
5 parts of Flint?
16 BY MS. TALLMAN:
25 A. No. And, in fact, in some areas you can see that the dots
9 teeny, tiny bit of red sticking out from behind the black, so,
14 correct?
19 areas I see the red color kind of peeking out from behind the
24 BY MS. TALLMAN:
1 home in Flint?
2 A. I do. I do not think the map could show that because the
8 A. Yes. Again, the map does not purport to show outcomes for
10 about the homes that aren't represented on the map, like you --
14 review of all the data and all the maps, what are your
16 A. Ultimately, I just feel like the City didn't use the data
20 reasonably budget for that, for the hit rate in the future.
21 Q. And based on your review of the data and maps are the
23 that there were fewer -- likely fewer than 18,000 lead and
1 A. No.
2 Q. And can you briefly summarize why, what the basis of your
4 principles?
12 estimate for how many lead and galvanized steel service lines
21 that we have gathered prior to January 1st, 2018, and use that
6 you want.
9 CROSS EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. KIM:
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. You say that you have never -- that you haven't actually
16 A. I have not.
20 A. No.
1 that the City says will help them predict whether or not there
10 have in mind?
18 the relative age of the city areas could be used to predict the
19 hit rate.
11 school.
12 THE WITNESS: So --
14 school.
16 of fun.
21 right? And then you have an equal sign. And on the other
5 outcome.
10 BY MR. KIM:
19 outcome.
20 A. Uh-huh.
22 that you're taking the data, you're analyzing it, and then
24 A. Yes.
1 A. Yes.
10 the end of the model you have your standard error. And that
12 of that outcome.
16 you predict that outcome. And then also around that beta
4 error both on the outcome and you also have an error for every
5 variable. And as you add new predictor variables and you get
8 better job of explaining the outcome, and then you can draw --
10 statistical significance.
13 BY MR. KIM:
16 on new information?
20 60 percent predicted hit rate for 2018. And the City lists
23 it one variable by one; right? And then you can decide which
5 A. So you use the data that you have gotten so far to create
10 forward.
12 that model with every, say, hundred, you know, service lines
13 that you excavate. I'm not suggesting you do that, but you
17 A. Well --
20 BY MR. KIM:
21 Q. But can you test -- can you test a model based on the
24 you're asking.
10 this clearly.
14 right, the weight. You're getting both at the weight for each
20 predict.
22 readings actually predict the outcome for the areas you have
23 already looked at versus how much weight do you put on the age
2 both sides of the model, and that's helping you get at that
3 weighting scheme, that beta. And then you input your -- more
6 you have not yet excavated because you have the weights and you
8 water card readings for those -- for those areas. So, yes.
9 Q. You said there was a second -- you said there was a first,
10 which I assume --
14 rerun the model and get, you know, even more precise weights
22 data you have to date. It's already -- the test is built in.
23 If you're asking, if you feed your model the outcomes that you
3 A. Which outcomes?
5 A. Uh-huh.
8 A. Yes.
23 excavated.
25 back and put in the outcome data and rerun the models and try
1 and get an even more refined beta coefficient for your work to
2 be done in 2019.
7 within an area?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. How do you know that that -- how do you know that that
13 basically you have done -- that you have identified the correct
15 A. I understand.
16 Q. How would you verify that those -- that that -- how would
17 you verify that the specific method that you -- that you or
19 information?
20 A. Sure. Sure.
24 be something like, subset out the data and use the data that
25 you already have and use the model to predict at that area that
2 sensitivity analysis.
10 Q. Sure.
14 right? That's one way to do it. But the more precise way to
15 do it, if you want to test your model is, again, we have this
18 create the model and run the model on the remaining 80 percent
22 the prediction.
24 there.
1 Now, you say -- you say that you have never designed
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you aware of anyone else who has done this kind of
8 work?
17 time.
23 question?
9 model?
12 knowledge?
18 variable?
22 variable.
5 in your model?
15 BY MR. KIM:
7 get, you would really have to assume that your data collected
16 whole, yes.
22 that case.
24 based on that what the actual hit rate should be, but you
4 Q. So given that the -- you know, the 2017 hit rate was
5 70 percent --
6 A. Yes.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
15 the number?
17 Q. Okay.
25 Q. Certainly.
4 Q. Understood.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. But based on that, does the same concern that you just --
7 or not concern -- but the same caveat that you just expressed
9 that -- like, in order for that -- for the cumulative 2017 and
13 previously?
16 the cumulative hit rate was extracted from, the sample, needs
25 believe that that's not true. I believe that the -- that it's
9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. TALLMAN:
12 declaration.
15 A. I have, yes.
17 A. I have, yes.
3 BY MS. TALLMAN:
5 A. I have, yes.
8 A. Yes.
10 Available.
11 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. And was that some of the variables that you were referring
18 to?
20 that the City already stated predictor variables for where they
3 So the ones -- the same experts who came up with this list of
10 galvanized steel.
12 houses in Flint?
15 A. I do not know.
18 to clarify, when you run a model and it spits out some outputs,
19 does the model also give you some outputs that tell you how
22 associated with every -- not with every output, but with all
1 model.
5 the data you have reviewed after you submitted your original
8 reliable predictor?
14 that that means that the hit rates seen in phase 5 to date is
20 don't have the numbers right in front of me, but all of the
25 before.
8 idea that the City has put forth that they only are using
13 copper-to-copper records.
15 BY MS. TALLMAN:
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay.
24 any time, but you will get a standard error and lack of
5 A. Yes --
6 Q. What's --
7 A. -- it is.
9 A. Sorry. Yes.
5 could talk about things like, what are the amounts -- how many
10 Anything else?
19 Mr. Kim?
21 Robert Bincsik.
24 sworn.
25
1 * * *
2 ROBERT BINCSIK
5 * * *
9 if you would.
10 And state your full name and spell your last name.
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. KIM:
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how long have you been employed by the City of Flint's
21 A. Early 2000s.
23 Director?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell me what your first position that you held
8 time there.
11 Q. Okay. And did you then take another position with the
16 A. I was a maintainer/operator.
19 A. So we did all the maintenance on, you know, all the pumps,
20 valves, that were really related to the water plant and its
5 distribution maintainer?
14 all the Miss Dig work for the City on its water system, which I
19 A. Absolutely.
24 January 2012.
2 A. Yes.
5 City?
6 A. Intimately.
9 in the city?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were there any areas of the city to which you were never
12 dispatched?
16 A. Yes.
18 2012. At that point, what did you -- where did you transition
19 to?
2 Q. Okay. And then how long were you the water distribution
5 Works Director.
7 A. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As part of that work did you become familiar with the age
13 of that infrastructure?
14 A. Yes.
16 infrastructure?
17 A. Yes.
19 A. Clarify.
21 city?
22 A. Yes.
3 main to the curb stop. Sometime in the mid '50s that changed.
4 You know, I always use '55 kind of as the date, but then after
12 seen the other day is a little less than 28,000 right now. But
14 Q. And are you familiar with the City's Fast Start Program?
15 A. I am.
17 to do?
21 Q. And are you familiar with how the Fast Start Program has
23 A. Yes.
1 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And then are you familiar with the areas that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how would you describe the relative age of the service
23 really, with lead service lines. I mean, that was the most
24 densely-located lines.
2 spot and excavate the same place over and over again. So as we
4 the center of the city with the idea that that stuff, the
11 replacement in phase 5?
12 A. Yes. So --
14 areas, the areas that have not been excavated and are not
19 maybe some as early as the late '50s, but they are going to be
23 guess maybe a small cleanup period, kind of. There will always
1 Q. Okay. And you stated that you're familiar with the areas
3 A. Uh-huh.
12 continues to do excavations?
13 A. No.
16 well?
19 CROSS EXAMINATION
20 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
22 A. Good afternoon.
25 compliance; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And there are times when the City must report information
3 to EPA; correct?
4 A. Correct.
7 A. Yes.
10 A. Yes.
20 Paragraph 30 Evaluation.
3 February 8, 2018.
7 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
14 is not reasonably likely that there were more than 18,000 lead
16 households."
18 A. I believe so.
20 A. Yes.
24 that right?
25 A. Correct.
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
8 A. Yes.
10 A. I did.
12 order; correct?
13 A. It is.
15 order?
16 A. Yes.
18 A. Correct.
21 that the City has already found and replaced 6,256 lead or
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. And in this letter you also tell EPA that Flint still has
2 A. That's correct.
7 let's say?
8 A. Yes.
10 A. It is.
13 Evaluation; correct?
14 A. Correct.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Mr. Bincsik, I would now like to talk to you about how you
23 replaced."
25 A. Yes.
3 correct?
4 A. Correct.
9 April, May.
10 Q. When you sent this letter to EPA in May of 2018 you knew
12 place in what you have called oldest -- the oldest areas of the
13 city; correct?
14 A. Correct.
17 A. Correct.
23 A. Yes.
4 A. Yes.
7 A. Correct.
11 A. Correct.
13 A. Yep.
16 A. Correct.
18 correct?
22 A. In certain cases.
3 before --
9 valuable parts to it that they might use for -- you know, for
19 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
22 A. Yes.
25 A. It does.
5 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
13 A. It is. Yep.
16 A. Yes.
20 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
25 the letter.
6 page 16."
8 A. Yes.
14 Correct?
15 A. Yep.
18 A. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
24 A. Yes.
1 Parcels." Correct?
2 A. Yes.
4 Correct?
5 A. Yes.
7 A. I do.
9 A. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
13 A. Yes.
15 correct?
17 like one.
18 A. Yes.
21 A. Correct.
23 22,995; correct?
24 A. Correct.
4 A. Sure.
11 A. Correct.
14 correct?
15 A. Correct.
18 A. Yes.
20 service line in the water system and the material it's composed
21 of; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the City is carrying out that inventory for EPA and
24 MDEQ; correct?
25 A. Yes.
3 A. Correct.
5 records the composition of the service line and can use that
7 A. Repeat that.
8 Q. Sure.
11 A. Yes.
13 A. Yes.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the Fast Start Program is the same program the City is
19 plaintiffs; correct?
20 A. Yes.
24 A. Correct.
3 A. Correct.
5 correct?
6 A. Correct.
10 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it a 50 percent correlation?
23 when the service -- the line material from the main to the
24 curb-stop would have been put in as lead, and then there would
1 that area.
3 build the roads, there would be some houses that were built
6 would have copper from the curb-stop to the house, but the line
11 A. I think when -- when the dates are not near the changeover
15 time.
17 times?
21 you get near the changeover. So the mid '50s, it's kind of
3 in Flint.
5 building code?
10 material. I mean, if we --
7 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
8 Q. So, Mr. Bincsik, you just testified that for the homes in
13 A. Yes.
18 you had a lead -- a few lead service lines, the potential is,
22 correct?
23 A. No.
25 Nothing further.
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. KIM:
8 copy of that?
9 A. Yes.
16 BY MR. KIM:
23 estimate?
4 know, our goal was to have all copper. We want 100 percent
8 off of the -- just off of the numbers in the first four phases?
9 A. Yes.
15 A. Yes.
18 A. Absolutely.
23 covers?
3 A. Absolutely.
9 the areas that are scheduled for phase 5 and that have not yet
11 A. Yes.
17 part of the city that would most definitely be older than the
18 1950s, and then there are areas that are what I would say are
23 years old nearly, now, but they would be all or mostly copper.
25 areas that have not yet been excavated and the areas that have
1 not yet been assigned the remaining areas, can you estimate how
3 1950s?
5 how many of them would have been built before the 1950s?
6 Q. Yes.
13 that, you know, they just didn't get done for whatever reason.
17 areas.
20 A. When you say majority of the work, you say what we have
1 estimate?
4 right.
18 Oh, you need a break? You may not call your next
19 witness.
4 sworn.
5 * * *
6 ALAN WONG
9 * * *
11 please?
14 Would you state your full name and spell your last
15 name?
19 DIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. KIM:
21 Q. Mr. Wong, are you currently the project manager for the
23 A. Yes, I am.
25 A. AECOM.
2 Start Program?
3 A. Yes.
6 A. Yes, I am.
9 A. Yes, I am.
11 became the project manager for the City of Flint's Fast Start
12 Program, were you provided with the information that had been
14 A. Yes.
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. And did you hear the testimony of Dr. Woods as she said
22 lines?
24 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the City's water card -- the
1 A. Yes, I am.
12 A. Excuse me?
14 database?
19 water card records are old and not in 100 percent physical
21 that's in the water card, the water card system, was unable to
22 be transcribed.
20 Abernathy?
21 A. Yes, I am.
24 are you -- comes to mind when you hear those -- when you hear
5 you like.
12 BY MR. KIM:
14 Dr. Schwartz and then Dr. Abernathy, and then I was asking you
3 that would exceed the 15 parts per billion limit. And that was
10 They were still calibrating it. And they were changing some
14 with them they were in the process of doing that, but because
15 they were doing all this pro bono and using students, we --
19 fast-moving program.
21 witness?
5 BY MR. KIM:
6 Q. Can you -- Mr. Wong, can you turn to the last page of that
7 declaration, page 9?
8 A. Yes.
10 about page 4 of 9?
13 declaration?
16 BY MR. KIM:
18 of your declaration?
21 December 2017.
22 Q. Okay. And do you know when this model was made available
23 to the City?
7 BY MR. KIM:
12 A. Yes.
17 if you go to the bottom of the table, the red dot at the very
23 A. Correct.
1 occur?
12 you will.
16 were doing additional work on the model. They were making some
24 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned how, now that we have had this,
25 this has been part of the -- one of the factors considered for
2 correct?
6 A. Me personally or my team?
9 Q. And are you familiar with the methods that your team uses?
10 A. Absolutely, yes.
12 A. Yes, I have.
15 A. The first part is to, again, access all the available data
18 the water cards. And for that data set, I haven't done that
19 calculation, that might be the case, but we've done over 4,600
21 exact.
23 the water card information was not confirmed in the field, that
25 that down to try to discern why. And we found that there are
1 changes that are made to either the public side or the private
2 side of the service lines that did not get back to the water
3 service center cards and those cards were not updated. So some
9 for excavation?
13 become a land bank property, which means they are not -- you
23 property records. And we also look at, besides the water card
25 field, they fill out information in the field that they bring
10 it's correct and there will be times when it's not correct.
14 good correlation.
19 A. Uh-huh.
24 multiplied that by 166 hours per month average and came up with
25 the 50,000.
4 A. Uh-huh.
14 model you have to calibrate it with actual field data, and that
16 So --
18 A. You collect field data. You populate the model. You run
19 it. You get a second set of model results and you check that
24 pressures, and then put that back in the model, run the model
25 again, and then go back out again and take more tests.
5 predictor.
10 CROSS EXAMINATION
11 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
13 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Yes.
20 correct?
21 A. Correct.
23 A. That's correct.
25 A. I personally don't.
1 Q. And you don't know the predictor variables that went into
6 Q. And does this model take into account the 2018 excavation
7 data?
8 A. No. This is what they had -- what they would have liked
10 model.
12 City in 2017?
14 Q. Was the -- was the data that went into this model that
18 data.
22 Q. Sorry.
24 the City the underlying modeling files for the map that is
25 depicted in Exhibit 5?
3 plaintiffs?
9 the witness ECF Number 187 with the attachments and exhibits.
23 declaration.
25 that?
15 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
17 Addresses." Correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
20 A. Correct.
22 A. Yes, I have.
24 A. That's correct.
1 A. My team did.
3 A. Yes.
5 A. Okay.
9 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
14 A. Correct.
19 at a time.
21 Reading." Correct?
22 A. Correct.
25 A. Correct.
2 A. Correct.
4 A. Correct.
6 A. Correct.
8 A. Correct.
11 not readable.
15 A. A blank space?
17 A. Okay.
19 Avenue.
20 A. Yes.
22 reading mean?
5 Q. Sure.
15 "NA"?
7 which means you don't know; and "NA" means it's not available,
12 year, in my understanding --
23 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
2 composition; correct?
3 A. Correct.
7 correct?
12 A. That's correct.
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And it records the composition for both the public and the
19 Q. And when those two columns are blank, that means the City
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And then the last column which says "Service Line Portion
25 correct?
1 A. Correct.
3 replaced; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Wong, the City reviews its historical water card
16 set."
24 have, and it's the -- under their contract they are responsible
1 one, but in week six they may be doing work at that address.
7 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 A. Yes.
11 correct?
15 generated our own data set. So those -- those two data sets,
17 the contractors.
21 Q. Okay.
4 Q. So you don't know what data was used to populate the water
7 column. What I don't know is whether the May and June data we
11 A. Yes.
13 will occur for each phase of the Fast Start Program; is that
14 right?
17 will occur for each phase of the Fast Start Program; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the City doesn't know for certain which buried lines
21 are copper and which are lead and which are galvanized steel;
22 correct?
16 caveat.
18 our scheduling.
21 know that from the 600 addresses that each contractor has,
24 out of those 600 they have 400 lead and galvanized, they have
6 when you dig around the meter box you may actually find that
11 that be accurate?
12 A. That's accurate.
13 Q. So let's assume that for this data set, this data set
14 that's right in front of you, the water cards are accurate when
16 time.
22 A. Okay.
5 that?
6 A. I can do that.
10 card readings that say lead, if you were looking for lead
11 lines?
19 Q. Yes.
6 sheet are accurate 99 percent of the time, you would agree that
7 if you're looking for lead lines you should first dig up where
11 the factor --
17 is the City of Flint, and the City of Flint cannot dictate the
18 means and methods of how they do their work on the 600 homes.
14 fair and equal manner, which means that the work under the Fast
5 you said one of the factors was a policy decision by the City;
6 correct?
8 decision. Yes.
12 policy; correct?
14 What I was trying to convey is that the City has made a policy
24 the question has been asked and answered numerous times here.
2 BY MS. CHAUDHARY:
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, I have.
8 A. Correct.
13 70 percent; correct?
14 A. Correct.
16 A. 16 percent.
22 matters.
24 select for excavation only lines that were copper, that were
5 A. That's correct.
9 A. Correct.
12 Program; correct?
17 Q. Sure.
19 discussed before.
1 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Yeah.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Okay.
15 A. That's correct.
18 A. Yes. At least.
24 $88,000; correct?
25 A. 1.75 months?
2 upper limit?
5 Q. Uh-huh.
7 yes.
11 A. Uh-huh.
13 that you offered, would you agree that that's roughly $88,000?
17 Honor.
20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. KIM:
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you recall?
6 A. No. They were in the -- they are -- they are the property
7 of University of Michigan.
13 they have given us those files. We did get some files in late
21 situations when the contractors are out in the field with the
3 they should and if they have opted in, if they have formed
5 then we will add that address right away to that list, since
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And are you also familiar with the areas in which service
22 A. No, I don't.
6 witnesses?
8 THE COURT: Mr. Wong, thank you. You may stand down.
12 Mays. She lives in the outskirts of Flint and her home was
14 home is not slated for excavation and has not been excavated,
16 from her.
19 Honor.
5 Number 166?
10 the Court, the Court should not trust the findings in the
13 just said.
19 lines in Flint.
2 information."
19 that's what the City is supposed to do, that's what the City
23 that if you don't like the results or if you think that they
2 here.
7 released for other purposes to the City under the WIIN Act;
8 right?
9 MS. TALLMAN: So --
13 is left?
24 more than 18,000 pipes that need replacement, that the City
25 might need more than the $97 million. And so the dispute
6 total.
15 lines in Flint.
16 THE COURT: Yes, but you have the data, and based
21 compel the City to do that? You have got the information, you
22 have got the raw data, and you can present evidence to enforce
2 whether we have that capability or Dr. Woods has that time and
19 historical records showed and what the outcomes were from the
25 conclusions that were reached by the City were not based upon
1 the data that they had available and could have analyzed?
7 the explanations that they provided and the data they provided
11 but they based it on data that was all of the data that was
21 THE COURT: But that's not what you have asked for in
22 the motion.
5 Mr. Kim.
20 What the City can't do -- and just to make sure I'm making
24 terms of how that data was manipulated, how that data was
5 of this year, such as the water cards that Mr. Wong testified
18 say is that this was done on kind of a pro bono basis and it
22 Honor.
23 THE COURT: And what would that be, the public policy
24 graduate school?
23 misstatement.
5 given you everything they have, and you don't think that's
6 accurate?
10 And while we have some information about the age of the City's
12 extent that the City is using additional data about its water
22 that you want as relief in this case and why, under the terms
3 back to the language, and that's why I would like you to deal
15 turnaround.
1 claims was created by its own program design. The City has
15 only four people when it has known for over a year that it
6 violation.
9 immediately visit those homes and make sure that they had
14 but, you know, the City has shown the same preference when it
21 We're simply asking for an assurance that the data has been
3 promise that the data are perfect. We're asking that someone
10 you compare the data sets that the City has provided and
11 actually look at them it's very clear that that is just simply
16 When you look at those data sets, you know, the dates
19 Visits to homes just disappear from one data set to the next.
20 First visits become second visits. And homes that should have
11 complete.
13 Mr. Kim.
20 was --
1 MR. KIM: I'm not exactly sure how long the actual
2 process takes.
9 information.
19 right?
22 you have got water flowing. How come it can't -- you cannot
13 completed.
15 back on.
19 for whatever reason, and they are informed about the need
20 for -- to conduct the flush, and they are informed about the
6 that, Mr. Kim, because from the information that I have had
12 danger. And I think I just heard you say that public health
14 City of Flint.
16 need to consult with the -- with not just the project manager
18 not that can be done and if there are other concerns that I'm
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