. ·:·· '.

'-· ·-- -
3U9

l TI-I.E COIJRT: F~eceive it ~·1ithout obje.ct.ion,. Plaintiff;s

3 (fl~t t!1is--tirtte !?lc.J..nti:ti's E:-:hibit I•To. 1~ ':70.S

received.) I
5 HR. Liil}E: We hav8 sever2l documends that ref er to

6 at that deposition which we would like to otter.

I
7 THE COTJR1.1 : You have 110 objection?

10 (At t:b.is -t:irne tl1e Cteposi tio11 of 1,;_c~ri ta Dorenz \·1as

11 conclndeC!.)
-,,
12 *;';It is the };'iictures '.'1it11 Fidel ca·stro c.r1d I<tori·ta

--·
1 ., Lorenz, statement she was a rnarshall and thJ ~rder of. the chiet

justice of the ac!cli tioi1 <T?.OBG> adc,i ti on caillk torts coulc: have

-7 . - .
vasningL.ont i_, . c
,.. .. , co nrp ell.
_ing .her
. ~ - to ~oct'
L~w ...t. f'v I
__ ..

16
"-
P!rt .. -v-~
Lht":t.: -r
he De'IJer
1
..
e>rer seen. i:nese a J."I__ egeo.., -1
17 contplication.· I j_ust got thew.•

1
-
t~
(J TI-IE CCJfJP..1J!: Tl1e docurnen.ts .2-'"0l:t h2G ·no objection are

20 f'•IR. I1P.~i:-1'E: The ones I hai;1e no obje8tion to goes

21 Pla-intiff' s B~hibit

TI-±E COlTf{T: \'le have got in that. I thought you haa

23 some.

24 I i1C.'7 e SO@e r I 112>1e given them.

I
25 Tf-IE COU.P.T: :C·o you l1ave any objection to these.
 '--,··:·

'
]_ LANE: t1o\·l- about· tl-1e Pl1otoc:raPli?
/. ;..\
' 2 811YDER: l'lo ob] ecti on- to t~e ~Jotogr aph.
3 1 1I-1E COU.RIJ:":

G Triple A is ~c11e or1e sl.1ot:Jn a_t the

s THE COlJRT: Any object.ion issl1es, n.o object.ion.

lG (At. ·ber~cl1 .. )

11 Tf! E CC:U P.T: I never saw these about before todny. I

2.2 don't !\11cY1i \V11c.t they are.

13

16

17 P.lR. LA11E: I ~·:ill rea.d i t 1:0 you.

10 I,lR. SJ:.1YD r.;p.: I ne•ter sa11·1 them. I never stipula tecl to

19 anything.

20 NR. Ll»N E : Let is see what you sai6 which did not raise

21 tl1e c1eposi ·ti on a·nd cl1c.llenged her

22 bec~use
.,_
she ha6 no document so I sa1c hr. uunne asKed you ir
J .. ·- ·-
:x-.-ou have any docw-nentation :Eor any of the ~[es~imony you have

24 cfferea.
(: ..::. :-
......._. 11 Eave you seen c..riy pictures of you ir.: published in
25
 311

l the p"rice- shc\·1ing :/oU \·1i th Ficlel Castro .

2 Gocumer1t"t-":; or comnenC1ations ·frorn an:/ intellig;ent orga11izations

i
to be pe11 Oeacl to their deposit:.icn photographs
I

5 c:c..stro, ancl ~.vhate 1:_1er con1r11e1-1Clations you miaht:' have, ~

6 You c.ccept. tI-iat, Mr. DL1nr1e.

'

7 You be subject ·to 1107 ri:ght to rea.d them,

8 ctnd question 11e:re about it.

l
9 I ne 1,;er stipulated t~ that, ¥our I-Io nor ..

10 l.,'D
I ~.lo'.• · LAJ:1E: never saiC that..

11 THE COURT: I don't believe that c~nstitutes a

12 stipulation .

13 It is not a terrific s~ipulation, but we

l.tl have ~-

15 They are not address~d to her. ~hey are

16 sa:/ing

17
. • . v.
LDJ..D.·. the~l shoulC come in.

_,
1 "
If the:::-~ \'-lill say she neVer '.·1orked for the

19 FBI or any of these organizations !.-Je ha..,1e e~idence thc..t She

20 did. It seems they agree. I would like to!make a proffer on

21 the record.

22 THE COURT: We will let you m0<rk them for

1
23 identification. T
J.
.l-1- •
L.11J.nk • .l-
it_
•
is r
r2.r J_ -
'-oo 1-ate:!
to be pr:-esenting

24 these for the first time_ I will sustaiE t~e objectionr give
''-· •..
25 tl1ew the ne::~:t numbered corrq;:.osi te exhibit for ident.ii: ication
 :·:-·:,.·;~4·:'-"'·._~.,,-.c_
.. 312
'
1 only. ·Call your 'next witness.
" ..
3 documents, labelec< Triple D.

4 I~IP.. I:EE: For the defknaants next witness we call Mr.

6 THE COTJRT: 1·Ve are c..t 902

7 I"if{ • .SI\1YDER: i'le o!Jject to r•:r .. Bloom being callec1 at

B t11i s late dat.e ..

9 TIIE COURT: I nbte your objecticD. C'/erruled.

10 ·JE.RRY BLOOi•i, DEFENDANT'S \·IITNESS, 5''70Rl:1.

11

12 BY MR. LEE:

Q Would you state your name?

14 ·A ·Jerry rloom.

15 n'· What is your address?

16 A11el!lLie 1 f1lia.mi . . Flori.da.

17 i\Iy ho2e address is 1230. S. ~q. 171 Court, ;.. am

.~ti
_I __i , 'l l 0 r ....i C:c~r.
, -
l
, Q
~v

19 Q I'-!aybe for the sake of tl1e record v1e shoulc1 reueat the'csame
.. t - . ,_ . I ,
20 question. Please s-ca e your n~-ne r: or t:11e Jury.

21 '~7erry Bloom.·

22 Q What is your office address?

23

24 Q \~Jhat is your occupation, £.ir. Bloom?

\
25 A I a2 a certified public accoun~anta
 l Q

2 A For '!\Ore thi rt::l

3 Q Just as an i11t-roc!uc-:Cion 11ere, •:rhen did yjOLl first h2ve

4 co11tact' v1ith ine?

5 A contact~ \\7 ith yot1 t'las on Saturday rnor.ning via

6 telephone.

7 Q ~Then did you· first meet me in person?

8 This morning at about 8:30.

9 Q

10 A Ri~l1t here in this courtroom.

11 Q Have )?OU ever had an~' contc.ct of ctr1~{ kind !.'Tith Liberty

12 LObby, Incorporated?

J.3

14:

15

16 - ....
1- ..,, A

18 Q. FI"B.v.. e. you e-;;er had any co11tact t:,1 -ith f;ir. Edr·ra•rl Euri·t or en;/
I . -- -·
19 of the:: a_t corne;{s: sitting at l1is table,
1
r~lr. Bunnell e.nd sOID:e rv1r ~

20 Snyder?

21 A ·Nor sir.

22 T·?ould "iOU please describe for the jury your education as

23 far as accounting is conce~ned? I

24 A Yes. I am a gr2..duate of the Ci· t y Uni

- · verI s,i·· -c.y
·
of rie"l".-1 y. or k ..
--
,.
f.• ·•

25 I
-
' to practice· in tl"1e
o.m 1. . . icensect
. ~ t:.a
0
·~ t...E 0.L~ r-l-. "o
-'! e·,-! .J. r 1-
i-.. -
-.!. -·n
c<.-1-

-..,-·---· ..... -··-------

 314

l licensee to practice in the Sta.te of FloridCT; in o.ne or t1:10

2 other st~~·tes as v1ell ..

Do 11ou ha';1e 2r11;l arE"a of specializ2.tion?,

4 I arn c.n auditor. I .happer1·i -cc1

. '.na\1 e a spEfcia_
. . 1 c.egree
1 .
in

5 health care ..

6 Q Do .~/Ou belon.g to any professional 'associations?

i
7 A Yes. I &l\ a. raemi)er of the Floric1a Institt1·t2 of CPI.:.,, ls v111ich

8 I am a mer:d:)er of tl1e l'~-Tterica Ir1stitute Of

l

_.,
1n governing bocly 0£ the.t group ..

11 Q I am going to 'na.n a' you a c~ocu:ment \·Jhichi is Pl o.intiff s 1

12 Exhibit 27-A, 'Hhicb. hci.s al rec.c1y been.

Plai~tiff's Rxhibit 27-A, .. '

i·J ,fiJ. C1! I belie•.re 11~s

.1.4 ad.rnittec] ir1 e 1.ridence and a.sk •1ot~ to exctrr:ine: this doc·uTi1ent,

15 please?

16 A ::-es.
17 Q Col1lO you please tell the jur:i'" ~·1hat thi1!s document purports
'
18 ·to be?

19 A Tb is is e. financial stc..tenent of TJibert'y Lobb~(, Inc.··~~~

20 ~·Jashington, D.C., December 31st, 1983.

21 Q BaseC ori t11e information v1iti1in the docurae11t, ~·1hicl1 is all

22 we as!' for today, who prepared this financial report?

A This financial statement 1:72.S prepared by 2 i··Iarilyn 1.1. Olson

24 of the firm Verd2t (pho) Arbick (pho) Olson and Company, .Silver
:
25 "pring,
..... . I··Iaryland.
 315

l Q Could you please eJ{f·lain to tl1e. ju~:l tl1e: concept of the net

....... 2 worth of~a corporation?

3 A Yes. The. net -·worth-_of a corpor2.tion is 1:.11e di:E:Eerence

... i . - ' "
4 between the total ctssets, wnicn is wna~ ~ne corpora
I -
ti or! O\•!ns,

5 ··minus tf1e total liabilities .v1h2.t tbe corr.·ora~io21 O\·;es ..

6 Tl"1e Cifference· t·1oulc1 be the net val,be of t11e

7 corf··Or2.tion sor11etimes referred to as net v1orth or stockholders

8 equity.
·• .\ -
0 - Q I-Ic:ve you had_ en or.·;::orttlni·ty prior to you,r. t~s·timon:.::- here as

10 to the Gocume-nt· you a.re no~·J holCir1g.

11 A Yes, I eJ~a.n1ined this briefly this mo:rnin;g ..

Q E~ased on your ezarri.ina.tion of Jcha.t Coculf.e;nt, are you able to

J.l1 Ir1corporated, as st-10\..•n •..1ithin the document?

A Yes .. There is a section contained in this financial

16 sta.tenr::r:t,. 1·.'hicr~ is· entitleO 11

Stockh0ldersiEc1uit
I -
1 11
1 -~
, v.11"1ich is ..

17 ar1other t:1ay of sayi11g that net ~·1ortl1. Ancl · tl1e total O.olla:r

18 amount attributed. for that ~Ja1ue is $2 ,116 ,297. 73 r1egati"I2.

19 This weans it has a minus net l.'!Orth or- to nut

r it-~
.

20 c.nother way that the lic.bilities 2,re greater thari the assets.

21

22 2,116,000 2-TTI0l1nt.

23 I v1ill hand :lou c. second document, ~·1hich is Plc.intiff's

,···. E:x·hibit 27-:S already ctdnitted into e 11idenceJ Have you had an
..
25 earl ie:r opf1C1r tu11i ty to e:zailline tl1at do cum en~?
 316

1. A Yes, I did.
( . ~
On tl1e sa.rr1e basis c.s the pre'vj.ous or1e.

3 Q ~'7oul a you f·l ea-se de-scribe G fer thE· ju. ry: the na. t i_1r2 .'
of -cne
'

dccL1ment ~[OU o.re n0\'. 7 holdins-?

5 A r_ehis is 2. financial s caten1ent of

1
I.ribert~! Lobby, I11c~

6 T:Jasl1ingtor1, D. C., i·1}arch 31, 1984, tl1ree mor1~hs later ·thih the

7 previous statercient.

Q Is there ar1y difference bet~·1eer1 the preparer of this

\
'.
9 document 2.nd the pre~.rioL1s one?

10 A

11 Q t~o\·1 1 I v1ill ask you. the same question. '(·/ere ~tot1 ask0d

12 before, based on your examination of all the figures in this

13 doc11ment,. c.re :::'ou :":!})l-2 to deterrnine r-il1at th.e clocttment sa.ys tl1e

1 L_;-.
.;. net ~qorth of Liberty T..-,f""o·;,.._,or-··._e,1
.i..·1:-"
.J.~l·..- C~\.... .._,
'.'/ <.~.·s
• as cif £·1arch 31,

15 19 8LJ?

16 A Yes. Tl'1e s~rne sec·tion that I aiscussea on the pre ..v.,.ious

17 stater:1ent also c.ppears on this statement. The dollar arri.o un t

18 it is not possible £or me to read it in it_$ entire cy !Jecause of 1

19 the lo.ck of clari t;:.,. of the staten1ent. But :t.l1e i1egati11e gain

20 the excessive lilabilties of assets or the 'negative net worth

~1
/. ..... on ti1is staten1ent appears to be l,450rOOO, ·c.r1Cl I ca.nnot read

22 tl1e rest of tl1e 11umbers on this Particular 1statemer.t.

23 Q ~·1he11 you spea.k of the lac!~ of clarity of the sta ternentr :lou

24 are referrir19 to the quality of the pri11t? ~

25 A Quelity of production, quE-lity of reproduction. its just not

 317

J. clear ..
I To 02 f2ir about it,
. } , . these do ct1n1 er1 ts
2 Q Y71 C:.Dl

4 net \·1orth stater:-tent t11at you hZi11e gi11en to the j11ry?

5 1\ This financi~l stateraent is what is referred to as a

6 compilation. A compilation report prepared,by a certified

7 public accountant. is based pretty n1L1ch on tl)e books and recorc1s

8 of Jcl1e cow~2.l1);7 tl1at is being the reEJor't ts being prepared for.

S Tbis is no~ an audited sfatement, was that the question you

10 were asJ{ing.·

11 Yes. I v1011dered if you had any qL1estions .. \.<7oul C. y ot1 like

13 Have you ever testified previously to this as a witness as an

14 accountant in the· Courts?

15 A On this case?

Q 1'10 1 or~ c.ny ~ther Ci3.se?

17

18 Q I1ave :/ou testifiec1 an

19 Yes, I l1ave.

20 Q As an accountant?

21 A As a CP~t;., yes.

22 I"fF! .. LEE: I have no further questions.

23 ~Hl5 cour-~T: cross e:ramination.

24

25 BY~ i•IR.. S!.·1YI:ER:

 318

3 - Q t·lr .. BloorH, i;·1l1e-,·1ill-be payirig yoL1r bill ·for tes·tif:;/·ing here

4 tocia.y?

5 A I believe it is going to be eitner ot the attorneys or

6 Liberty Lobb:y.. , Inc.

7 Look at either one of the financial sta~ements that you

8 .L_ J, m"tJ--1
L!.i;1.!,1S!..J. Lct__ l ''p.y-
eLt~ ..... from
I

9 1-12.rl~/n 01 son t.l1e acccur1tar1_t. of Liber:l· Lobby~ I!lcorpor ate·:!,

10 ~rJashingtor1,. D .. c. The second sentence, secorid par2graph there

11 would you please· read that?

1
12 Yes .. ~A cornpilation is limiteCi to represer..ting in the form

13 ot fina1-1cial stater.:er!·ts inforn1ai:i-:;11 tl1at isi the represe~tation

......- '

15 acco111pc.r1::_.i-i11g finar1cial staten1ents c:11d do ac?orcfingly do r1ot

16 express an opin~on or any other form of assurance on them.

i~
-- I Q \"Jhen I'·Ir .. Olson says \'le do not express a.r. Of·inion or any

18 other forrn o:E a.sst..1r2nce 011 thern, wol1ld it t)E: fair to sa~{ 11e is

19 not putting his seal appro. J2l

. on these stc.tenents·:

20 V!hat he is saying this is ,.,hat I tried to e}~plain a momerLt

21 ago t!1at there are Qifferent. levels of resy~nsi1~ilit:::"" that en

22 auditor ta.ke s .. He can Go c.n c.uctitr c. re,1ie~·1 or cornpilation ..

, ,_
..,~
..::..-· The compilation is the J..ea.s._ c..mount of

24 In order to an auditor takes in the prepara~ion of a financial

, ..
~. -·

.
 3 J_ 9

;
Q Yot1 are saying v1l1at you ha"'..re i.n front of USA Cornpilatl~-n?

2 .I!. This.is a compilation.

3 Q

4 A The lec:.st a.mount of otrtsiaJ \lerification. The least amount

5 of auditins work done.

6 The r1e;-:t paragrapf1 says 11

management has ~1 electec·i to omit

7 substantially all the disclosures and the statenlent of

earning and changes in financial :;1 osj~~ciorr

'
r~quireci b:/ generally

9 accepted ac9ounting prin.ciples 1

'.

10
. ~

1.DC:lCa
. )..
l,..e Jco yoL1 tb.at this aoes

11 not purport to be in accordance with generally accepted

1Z accounting principJ.es.

__
1 ., )

l.:J Sr1yGe:r is seeking to question· tl1e 2.Uthentic~·ty ot the docunte11t

15 which he hintself put in evidence.

16 TI-iE cor~RT: G\re:c rule Ct.

THE: ~\J'ITI:~ESS: Sil::', ":lculd ~/OU mind, I lost rny train of

18 thought on that. Could you repeat it?

19 BY £·1.F~ .. S~JYDEP~:

20 Q The first pcragraphr management has elected to omit

'
21 substantiall;/ all ·the dis.closures a.r:.d the statement cf ret2.ined

2.2 earnings anQ cl1anges in finar1cial position 'required by

!

generall::l accepted 2ccou!-iting principles ..

24 I-i::t co ncl us ion, is i t is fair to sa~t tl"! is sta tern er1t

~

25 that ~(OU told in front: of us is nc·t. in accoi"Gance ~1i th

 320

l · generally accepteCl 2ccount.ing principles?

,.
2 A Yes,.. technicall3/ in orQer for 2. fj.11ancici.l staternec.t. to be

3 in accordct11ce 'Nit-ii: ger1E~rall~y- accepteO accou11ting prir!ciples.

It should contain all the required footnote disclosures. Tl1is

5 staten1ent cioes not include ~cl1e reqL1ireC'. footi1o·te disclosure so

'

6 it is tech.nicall:l not ir1 accorOance ~..rith ge~eral1:Y accepted

7 accounting principles.

8 By '·1ay of e;~pla.nc.tior1, tr1e footnot¢ enclosures are '

9 narrative, ;~hich ·elabor~te on the information contained in the

'

J. 0 nl1merics of tl1e stc.ternent. There "qoulG be a seri-es c.f

11 footnotes ti:1c.t -t·o ;:1oulO follov1.

J. 2 Q The footnotes are irrq;1ortant?

13

Q The disclaimer goes ·on to sa_l~ i:c the or:1.!i_ttec1 disclosl1res

15 and statements \·1ere incll1deC ir1 1che finci.ncial stc•.t2mer1ts they

16 migl1t influence-the users conclusiorr about the cornpan•l' s

' -
17 :Eina11cial position, and cesul t of operatio11~ perioa accorClingly

18 these finar!cial sta·teraer1ts are not Oesigned. :Eor those l1ll10 are

19 not informed about such matter, is tl1at cor;rect?

20 A That is ~vl1at it sa.ys, ~res ..

21 Q ~·/0L1lc.1 :/OU look };::lease ct tl1e December 3:1st, 1983 finctncial

22 stc. ternent. And could you tell us ~rhat the :total assets -- I ara

sorry .

24 'fr.foulQ }'OU look 2t t}-1e I~larcl1 31 r l!j84 that is tl1e

i' ....

latest GT1e stateruent. Tell us T;1hat the total assets of Libert.y

'
;:;\r;r. '. 1 .~.?-:::"'.;:·:,.;, ('.·::--:].ci~.}.. ::-'i:;•~c,r·::r:-ic, 11 .2.1' :i='isr.::-:-isi: Cct:;:t
 l Lobby are .
.·· ..
A The -'ttcltal assets ai-;pea.r·fng in tl1is statement of Lj.berty

3 Lobby, Inc. is l,~31~113.51.

i
Q \•Joulo you look at tne next page, the liability page.

5 is tl-1e w11ount of accoL1r1ts pa:'./able· to tracie .c reditors?

1

6 A This is the sheet that is not ~le~r. Th~e copy l arn 1 ooki ng

7 at 2.ppears to be about 511 ,000 T but I am not· sure abou .c that

8 nuE1ber simply becc..use I cannot see i t ..

9 Q

10

12 Q You see an entry in there for deferreQ amounts due for

13 ..
C:iff ered subscri ntio11s?

14 ~les, I· do.

15 Eor;7 much is tl-1at?

16 A $2,210,471.:-s.

17 Q That amount Que ·to clef erred subscribet's i is an accounting

18 concept, is it n.ot, in other ~·1orOs, for exarti.ple, if someone

19 pays thirt:/ on it for a subscription in Jan\1ary of a year·/~ and

20 one v1eek of the :lear elapses, five seconds ?f that amount v1ould

21 go into the deferrea subscriftions reserve, is that correct?

22 A ~es. That is the theory of the o.ccount'..

Q Their still gross assets in this could have a mill i.on

2~ thre~, is that correct?

............. "

25 Yesr I believe that is the correct num0er.

 322

1 Q l·7ould yo_u kindly look at the December 31st staternent, 1983 ..

2 Anc1 lool\ at the statement 9-':: income for tl":ie 1

ye.~r. Do you see

3 the 1Ja9e that er1c"ts. up r.izi th .!che figlJ.re total. in.come?

A Yes.

5 Q

6 A It appears to be $5,228,922.

7 Q i-Jould you look at the r!e:{t page, please?

8 A Yes~

. \
Q f-..,.f. ter Sl1btr2ctir.g tbe tl1at

10 incoine, ;·111at. is Liberty Lobby 1 s gross p:rofi~ for 1983?

" '
.LJ. A $1,712rl83.25.

12 I·1R .. S.t~YDBD.: I··lay I i1ave a. m.cmGrrt,.. Your Honor ..

13 :r·rI.3 COT.TR1l1 : :les, sir.

1 Lj r'iR.. Si·1~DER: I hal.Je r1othi11g fur the!:.

15 TI-IE COURT: Anythir1g on redirect ..

16

18 Q In your exper ier1ce 11av ing ·test if ieQ in ~ti1er courtrqoras, is

19 ·there anything unusual about ~rour being paip 2. fee for your

20 work?

21 A ·Not at all; it is custom2ry.

22 Q Is the fee that h'2 t·1ill be paying :lou o;r Libert~{ Lobt.y v1ill
1

23 be pa.}ring you tvithin the normal range for s uch a service?

A It is rci;t sta.nCard billing rate ~vh·ich I charge for all

(
25 services I performed:
 323
..

1 Q Do any of the questions, v1l1ich t•lr. Snyd~r 11a.s askeO you, as

···~ ..
2 to certa.in details within

3 any resp2ct as ter-t11e net eifect of ell tl1eSe figures !.-Jhen the~{

4 '
are put together into the net ,:.7orth of LilJerty Lobby?

5 No, sir.

6 O WoulCl you repeat again the figure whicb you :Eii1d to be the

7 i1et 'i·1orth of Liberty Lobby in I•'larch J.984?

8 Again this is the number that is difficult to read. It is

I
- '
9 1,459,000 sornetl-1ing' .. !1..s best I cc.n make it: out.

J.O Q That is negative figure?

11 A I·iegative.

12 I•1B.• LEE: I 11ave no further ques·tiops.

13

15 (Sidebar cor1ferer1ce as foll0\·7S:)

16 fiR. Si\I;.~DE~: Just to 1Jrotect roy :re'cord .. Your Honor-,

17 had I t)een allor.-1ed t:o I ;;qould h2ve inquir'ed. into the assets of

l B the \ql1clly o~·.rned subsidiar~r 0£ Liberty Lobbj kno~11n as the

19 cornrni ttee to defend Liberty Lobby.. °l'lhi cl1 l.·!:oulCi sl10\·1 total

20 assets $1,927,000.

21 THE COTJP.T: Thank you.

22 i'·iR .. I.:EE: \11e object to the clarific,ation ..

23 1~1P... J.iF.l\1E: He made a proffer ..

24 THE COURT: Thank you, Gentlemen.

~

25 !:IR. Llll'!E: 1·Ie ha~1e a deposition o~ George Gorc1on

 324

l Lidd:l · This is the cteposition _o:E George Gor~don Lic1dy taken at

( 2 my officr< lc.v: office in \'!asI1i!lgton, D. C., l!:oo 0

1
clock on Jur1e

2Gth, 1984. Taken- Dy F±eruii1g Lee and I•'lr .. Sriyder ..

5 GEORGE GORDO':l r~IDDY,

8 11
QUESTI01:1: Please state yoL1r narrre,; sir?
.\.
9

10 I tl'link :l'ou are alreadJ:~ g?nera.11:,.r at.·1a.re

11 why you are here. :l1b.is concerr1s a lav1su.it brouaht by E ..

1
: ..J -

12 '·1hich is

13

-1 /1
-.: alleged he was libeled in an article pu~lished in

15
\
16 a AJ·1 E3T/J E~ : So I 11cive been in.L '
. ~ ormeo.

17 ,;QUESTION: Are you here under subtcena?

18

19 ''QUEsr_rror.1: To start out 1.·1i th, j usi:. so \·1e can be-come

20 more familiar with you personally; woulc you give us

21 c. survey- of yot1r educational background?

22 "P.. i·JS!:JER: I t·1as ec1ucated in a Roman Catholic grammar

school and Benedictine High School, Fordham

' '

24 University 11nclergra.duate and Ford~1am Universit:.l T.:LB.

25 About si;: years later I aia g~2duate work at the

 1 1·1e1;·7 York Universi t:l La1:1 School_ u:nc1er tl1e late

! ' "'
·.
I
2 Professor Walter.Derrenberg.

1 :QUES11 I~~: I1s;·1 abot:t :lour c2,reer pistory, •:1ould you

. I
4 please give us the named professionc:l positions you

5 have had?

6
11
1\i:.JSV'lER: 1·1y first effiployment \'las ~s iln P~rrny officer r

7 lieL1tenant· of artillery during the Korear1 ~Var. That

9 nFollo\'ling graOu.atior1 from l.a.~·1 scb.ool, I sper!t

10 :Ei,?e :}'ears as a special agent of .'tbe FBI. \•Then I

_,_
11 resigned I •Has Bureau supervisor in J, Edgar I-loo·r,,reri s

Inspection Division L1nder Cc.r"'cha DeLoach. I

1
13 prc.c·ticed.12.\•.J in i·lc:nhc.,ctan, El"l fa.ther S le..-:·J firm.

1 ir. :;I becarne tl1ereafter l'.\ssisto.'nt District t:.ttorr1ey

15 for Dutchness County, l-1e~·! York. :I rc.r. for Republican

16 nomi~tion for 28tl1 Cor1gressior!.ali Disi:rict in 1,Te~·.r

I
i
_/- York. I lost. H0\·78"7er, I \•1as ttjen gi,1en the

18 chairmanship of the 1\1ixon presid~ntial campaign for

19 that area of the f-1ltc1son Ri,1er \Ta~ley of r.1ev1 YorJs, and

20 following the election of President Nixon I became

21 Special Assistant to the Secreta~y of the Treasury

22 for organizea crim2.

"i
23 "About a year thereafter I became Treasury's

24 Enforcem_ent Legisla·tive Cou.nsel, lw2ybe six months

.'
\.:.-·· af·ter that I beco.me staff assist~nt to the President
25
I
 326

i
l of the United States assigned to ~he office,

2 • Ex:ecl1ti 1Ie off ice -O:E tl1e the l"hi te House,

3 tl1e V?l1i Le I-Jottse staff.

' "
~Ana .
in ~-1 , in
J-~' . iD '
Jecemoer, I l=-?ecarne Genera.l

5 Counsel to the Co~nittee to Rs-el~ct the President,

6 anCi ther1 c.:bout I-Jareb or April I 116r.7G J:ieco1ne General

8 President.
j
,,.r. nr .Wc.s ir: late Ju11e' or ea rl:l July 1972

J.O for fa.ill1re )co cooy;:•erate rHith the i FBI in.vestigatio11

11 into tl1e 1'1atergate bree:.k i_n ..

12 s11b.sec1uentl~1 for r:umber s of of:.::e11ses, \·Ti ring ta·p!_")ing,

13 bre2king and enteri~g, things of that sort, and I

14 thir1k I ended up with ~ro1··-.,-,

Ci._ ,,_!: !,_l e.:..!.. "jL
r-,11.~- \...'L
,...,.,.. nine felonies,

15 sentertce of 21 and a half years in prison.

16 :·~- t.·1as relea.sed in Sept•2n1ber Of 1977, :Eollo\·1in9

18

19 on the lecture circuit, writing magazine articles,

20 television, motion picture activi~iei.

21 .:~bout hov1 :frequen·C.l:l \·1oulO. you say you

22 lecture publicly or1 the a~Jercge 0'.7 er t.he:.t peri·oa?

24 c.lready t1a\1e tor i.:he perioC-l ct 15: September t11rougl1

'.
25

--- ---·-
. .. .
' --. r::-::::_::ir··
 .327

1 probabl~1 ha,1e in e~:cess of. 40 b5r tt1e ·tirae 15

...., 2 • Septernber coin es arot1nc1, a11d r.·1 i l l probabl~'l ha\;- e c..11

'
3 eqyal n-G.rnbe!:'-fro1n 15 Janu.ary to ei1ci of ,Ju11e ne:-:t
t
year. So what does 'that mal:e it, 30 or mo~e a year.

5 In the coL1rse of :lour ~?-reer, .t1a.>1e yot1

6 e'i.rer recei~ved commendations or av1ards?

7 I received six from ,J. E¢1ga.r Eoo\1er.

,. ''QUESTION: From your FBI career.

0
I'"-"

Yes. _i;.11d I 1·1as indt1cteC!: ini;o ~t11e Honorary

...
10 T..1egion,. Police Depar·trnent Of l'~e\V Xork.

11 11
1JUESTIOI:·1: }iave :,roL1 ever kncv1n E.: Ho~.vard Fiunt, Jr.?

13 z:~UESTION: During which period di:d you ](now him?

14 I first n1et T~o;·1arci in th'e surnrner- ot 1971:

15

16 ~{Ot1 c~rr say I ha-ve then ho1.·T mc..ny ·ever since.

17 1
'QfJESTI()J:J: ~·Joo.la it be true to soy yoi.1 knei•T him

18 essentially in ~·:hat \•Jas popu.lar1Y co•1ered by

...
19 \·Jatergate period ..

20 1
' Al,1S1•JEP..: Yesr I ,.,ould say- tha-t s1true. 1

21 ''QUESTION: Co1Jld you described t~e nature of your

22 association •;.<1ith hira?

23 II Ai·1 SVJ ER : It was at first strictl~ profession2l. I

24 11ad a dual assignment in the l'Ji1ite House. ~OU might

..

25 say cvert assignrnent, Staff P. . ssistant ·to ·tt1e

 328

1 President of the United States, was to be an adviser

2 . - in drug enforcer,1e'r1t rna.tters anc\ also to have ar1

3
1
·4 Treasure l1c:.vi11g to clO v1itl1 firearraS, explosi\1es,

5 I he.Ci t11r2tt2n

6 pre·tty mt1ch the Explosi,1es Control' Ac·t t.·1l1ich had

7 becorne lar:1 recentl~t·

.. -
\I --
"
9
I
ct:Cter it haci bec::n dis!)andeC:! 1.•1a.s club~~d. by t.f1e preSs

lU It v1as c:. specie.l ;in.vestigation t.1nit

11

l2

1 .'O,

1 I] I\issinger.

J.5 \·1oulci say ~John i·1itc~~ell .. Rua KroQh represented John

16 Enh rl ict1raan .

17 was ~r .. Hunt, and he represented CHarles Colson. He

18 1·1as c:.n adviser to r-rr. Colson .

..·
19

20 you know what it was?

21 I t:.hink: l1is title \·1as consu.l,cantr or

22 sornett1ing s imil a.rly vague and ambiguous.

2~ ~
11
QUESTIC1·1

2 L1 United States •30,1ernment agency :o~f·ore t1e cc.rae to

25 work tor the White Douse?

··-.·-,-.- ...... ... ~-·-;~::: ·- ·- :~;

 .

11
1 Ai·T 8'7 EP. : I-Je told me tl1a t.
/ ·~:
;
2 • he had an officei and was a
- retir~d ofticer of the

3 Central -·-InteJJ_ i gence Agenc~:{.

I
1J "Q UES 1:Pior:r: Do }'OU k116v1 <:.·1 i1e·tl1er or : not he had an:.:t

5 duri!na the period in

; .)

7 Yes, and I lJC:5Je is that ~tat:e1nent tor that 1

8 plus I atten-c'ed arid \·1as ~·1ith 11im on some occasi9ns

9 '<!hen i'Jednesday contact_ v1i th CIA pf?rSonnel a

l U "QUESTIOI:~: In ~7our book uI•Yill 11 tl1at ~{OU mer1tionec1

J.l

12 to o. ntnnber of occasion.s ir1 v1!1icl"': · ilr. I-1unt \·12.s ix1

LI CCr!tc:ct \·li tl1 the CIA. I ~t7onder i:t yot1 reroernber i-.r.los:::

14 or if ydu would like to refresh your memory.

15 I can give 1'0l1 ruy recall,. e~t the ·time, a11d it

16 being·scrae years since the time p~rhaps it will b~

: i

17 necessary for 111}.,. mernorx. . to be refresl1ed.

lE

19 t.h 1ce agency on behalf of the act.ivi·ties thc.t the

20 special operations gro·up that I \'12.S a member of to

21 gain clandestine devices· such as: disguisesr

'

22 voice-altering devices 1 gait-alte,ring devic2s,

23 photogr2phi c equipment r training :in the use thereof /

24 and, of course, in that connection I \·1as present and

25 met the people thz.i: recei~led the training and

 330

J. received from tfiem tl1e disgttises a:itd I received the

i 2 • gait-altering deVice.
'·

4 believe, to inter'l iev1 one Di to. Beclr, a 011e tirrie

5 err~pl oyee .of .Ir.i..iri:. IIe was for our ~roup the principal

6 cor1tcic·t or1 tl1e clay-to-day basis \·1.{th the Central

7 Intelligence Agency. However, any very high level

""
9 Eh rJ. i cl'1ma.n.

10 11
QUESTIOlJ: Do you recall 11is ever ,intro1JL1cir1g :lou to

11 any eniplo:/ee of tl1e Ce11tral IntelJ!igeEce Agency?

~ 1 ,i)~J-.15\r·!EP..: Yes,. he in.troduce<.'.l rne to :the ci1ap \·1110

- ?
.L •. f12rnished rrte i·1ith Cii.si;:juises c:nc~-p1i.otograp~'15_c

1 Lj whose nora ae auerre was:steve.

~ '
I \·;as

15 introduced to another chap whose ne'i.rer nan1e •t1l1atever '

16 it wa~ I aon 1 t recall.

17 11
1t was that person who delivered to me the

18 car·toons t11at had bee11 Dreparecl

' - ir1. t11e Cer1tral

19 Intelligence Agenc:t,. poli ticc:.l c2itoons a ttackifig

I

20 Senator I::ennedy, fer use sl"1oulO Ser1ator r~er1nedy at

21 that tirne run for President of t}1e TJnited States.

22 '
1
QUESTI01'1: ~·Ias I·ir .. I-lun)c connected: 1:1 itb. those ca.rtoons

23 in any v:ay?

24 II Al11s;·~ EB. :
( ..
' obtc~ined.
25
 ---- ..
.

331

l Could I interrupt you lbng enough to ask

i
,--
2 _. \·1h2t ~.·1ith ·f:.l1e pl1r"'poses of tl1e clisguises gi\1en to you

3 b~{ the Cll\ · maD narned Steve or ca11ka SteTve?

i
11
AI:·i 51:\f EP.: It was for going to Beverly Hills,

5 ·California, and to breaking into, ~ntering and

6 searching the office of Dr. Lewis Fielaing, a

7 psychic..t:risJc T.vho f1acl up until rece.nJcly be treating

8 one Daniel else, a consultant for the Rand

9 Corporc.tion, a think tank locatec1 ;i11 Sc~nta I~lonica

10 Cal.if or ni a.

11

12 episode?

ill-i..t1E?/!ER: Yes. fi.r. Ht1n..t anc1 I \·:ere bot.r~ in~Iol ,.rea in

14 the pla.nr1ing _a11c1 e:.~ecu·tion of it.

15 T...Yas there aJJOllt the CIA

'
.L 0
,- partiCipation in such a Corr.es tic i ~ecret 2.cti~.ri ty7 _ _. I
i i

17 ask you because ih your book you.published a letter

18 from a CIA man, 1·1b.ose narne 1· c1on 1 t recall, in v1hi ch

19 he seems to be cor1cerned about l'·!r. Bunt obtaining

20 this sort of this thing?

21 11
P.._.J:JSi:JER: The then Charter of tI1e <;::entr al Int ell is;ence

22 Agency prohibited it from the domestic activities,

23
-
just as the writ of the FBI prohibi tea l. ,..1.- ::!:"rem

activities abroad. I ''72.S a\'1are o:!= the fact :Crom

d.
' -
25 having a st1pervisor in ·the FBI that from time to tirrte

--::'· :-· -:--· .;~_,:: ~ (' p ~.-.·

'.:::-::::::: r~c· 1 • ::- ~:--
 332

• operated ab:r.oac1, ~and it \.,,~as m:=t understar1dir1g brocialy

3 enought_,_that ~he CIA sometirnes operateO. Comestically.

HThere i·1as, hortJe,Jer, and !·"ir. I-Iur1t spoke to me

I

5 ab_out it, a problep C!uri11 3 the 1 e::~stence o:E tl12.t

6 special investigators group with ~ reluctance by some

7 high· level person of Central Intelligence Agency to

C'
0 pro~1 ide us \'.r i ti1 cl ar1de st i ne oper a:ti or1s eqt1i prn2n~ ~

10 us ·\·;ith ps::lchologica1 profile. That \1as done tv;ice,

11
11
12 QUBS111 I01~: T'Jhat is a ys:/cl1ological profile as

13

:i Af~S::JEP..: The Cent.r al int ell igencc: ager1c.:l just ot11er

15 e2:::tern2.l ir1telligence agencies, I--!'oss2c1, !'Ic1I-6,

DUP~~-~B-YO.P.-0, (phonetic), rei;ul2:rl:/ E:.ttemr;:·ts to drai;V'

17 up for the benefit of the le:2.Cers: of ·the count0J \·Jhat

18 is called a psychologic2l profile of foreign leacl_ers,.

l!' v1hat t~neir motivations ina:l f)e, v;h;at their strer1£ths

20 of cl1aracter may be, i;vhat their i;-ieaknessess of

21 cl.1aracter nay be, c_nythir.g th2.t 'vill enable c..n

22 ll.Jnerical leader to in the process, of negotiation •,vith

a foreign leaCer have an edge, s9 to speck

24 "QUESTION: \·/hat were the t-10 p-_yschol ogical profiles

,.I;·:·'
...
.. .
-
......
.. ..
provided to you by the CIA?

.
 333

l They l:1ere both Daniel Ellsberg ..

' . 2

11
I\rT.51\f ER: Yes, it v1 as. It was he ~ho served as a

liaison and with the Central Intelligence Agency

6 because of his prior emplo~{rtterrt there. I served as a

7 liaison v1itl1.. the Federal Bureau of Ir£vestigation

bec2.use o.f lit}' si:mile.r r;:·osition there.

.. . -- '

Do you recall an episode in which you ana

10 ~r: Hunt discussed undertaking a project at the

11 Brookings Institution?

12 'Yes. There came a. tin1e 9uring the suw1ner of

1971 '1hen ~r. ~unt appr.oached me ~nd said that Mr.

Colson, his.principal, was concerned ~ith what might

1 "
-~ be in the holCings of the Brookings InstitBtion, and
i .
16 to gain access to those h8 propc'sed a special

17 oper<,:;.tion. l·Ir. r.:unt and I sat do;•Jn and devised one.

,.
13 ii~he operc.tion tha-C 1·1e planned 1vas to purcl1ase

19 several used fire er1gines from thE: market \Vhere~-:they

20 are available, have them painted. ?md declared in the

21 colors of the ~·Iashington,. D. C. Fi.re Departmentr to

22 have our Cuban assets dressed in the firemenls

23 uniforn1s a.na attending the engines, to have a

penetration which woulo then during the period of

.....
'· time there v1ould be no one there :so no one r;1culd be
25

.. - ----r
"0.-::.·-,r_.,...:-r..,1•
 .

1 hurt statt i fire in the Brooking~ Instituion

2 • 71
Tl1e fiLst erigines to respont9 't•1ouJ.-d be ours . It

3 would be- our people who uould enter and in the guise
j
4 of plTtting out fire they would take whatever it

5 was that Mr. Colson wanted out ofithe Brocikings

6 Institl1tion ar1cl v1e \·1ould ha.\1E?' it .. ,.

8 princii;:·als re£useC: to p2.}7 for the: fire engin.es. They

.\
tl-1ought i-t \\ras excessively e~(pensive. ::

11 "QUES'l'ION: Can I asl~i what is a Cuban asset, and who

12 were the Cuban assets?

13

role ir1 the c.bor~ced c.tteri1}?t to ovGrt.l-tro~·1 Fidel Castro

15 tl1at l1as come to be knO\'!n l1istoriCally c.s the Ba.y of

16 Pig·s episode. I:1e told ri"1e there v.rere still man:/ \.7ery

i~ well trained, trained by the Centrcl Intelligence

-'
l 0
_ A Agencyr 'ilery pro-E.merica, anti-Castro CL1bans in

19 U!iami, and that he knew them ~qell ·, that he believed

20 they 1qoulci be a.vailc.ble, indeeO eager, ·i:o engage in

21 special operations, special missions on behalf of the

22 special group of ~11l1ich I.'!.r. Hunt arrO I \·iere mernbers.

23 11
P'"nc1 tl-ie first time they v1ere re.cruited for thc.t

24 purpose ~..1as.for t11e Fielding operation,.. and 1-1e

('_ ..
25 referred to thew as our Cuban assets.

,.~ r
'-.'
 335

If I c2n ask one more q:uestion. ~·7hat

1 . "QUEST ION:

r , -.- -.. ;?a.rt Ciid Eunt pli.::z- in the Broo}~ing,s arso11 pla11?
2 •
It •1/as he who caiue to me v1ith the task frqn
3

4 his principc.l, \·1ho was t-Ir. Colson.; P..nd he and I

5
j oi ntl:l planned the rni ssionr ctnd tj~ ·then took. it to

his principal and i.t r..·1as he ~,.;ho told me i t haC been

6

7 turned o.own.

8 E-X· I-1TI.. LEE:

.\
'I -·

9 aQUESTIOl\!: I believe in your book you said you were

10 a•:1are, you l1aO no illl1si·:)ns about tl1e legality of

11 sorne of the t:.l-1i11gs tJ:1at v1ere happenirtg

-J_ ,,..,... Thatis. quite true.

-- r:1·2 C211 ?.SSl1I:le unGer. criminal J.o.w?

1 t1
Indeed, when I was in the Federal Bureau

15 of in,1estigatior1 ana r..ve regularly engagea in 1

surre~titious entry v;rl-1icl1 r,·1e ca.lJ.::eG by the slang ~rn1

16

17

18 Anc!. obviously if T·Jec!.nescla.~/ been a'pprehenaea in the

...
19 course of it v1e v;ould be denied by cur superiors and

20 our organization. We were takin~ our chances on

21 that.

22
"QUESTION: gay I ask you about t~e arson at Brooki.ngs

i:<lhich Iilr. Bunt suggested to you. Did you consider

:'-''...
" that to be illegal?
2S

-, ~'
 .

336

1 n Al'T 51:17ER :: Yes.

2 .. '
1
QUE.STI0£1: Do you kno\v 1:1hether or ' 21ot f rorrt your

3
i
'1 illegal? I am not a.sking } ou to :Cead his minC!r
1 but

5 You CGn. glec,n from i1is ,·1ora or actions \Vl'1eti1er he v;c.s.

1

7 'i f\~1·1ST.qEf<: ti!ell, ~_;e Cti scusseci in ternts of the pl an

13

9 get them _out Or prison anC! things; of tf'1at sort. P...r10

10 I tl1ir1k the logic<il infererice from tl1at is l1e v1as

11

12

].3

l"'
'
J_ :J
,. told me. There was a meeting whi6h I attended in

16

17 for clandestine operations for c. plan ~·1l1icl1 1·1eqnesOa:/

18 . designated t•y t.f-.i.e cc c"'te \·1ord -GemstOne ~<7hicl1 \·1as :Eor

1

- ,-.
19 the purri0se of political intelligence gat.he:rir1g---o.nd

20 a clandestine operation to disrupt as best we could

21 the successful operation of the I::emocratic Party

') ....
.:... L. compaign for 1:.he presic1enc:i' in 1972 .. Irr the course

23 of )chat I met numbers of people ir1 i'iia'Tli v1l10 ~rTere of

~
.<. 4 Cuban extraction.
..,
~~
~ ut;:;UESTIOi·f: You met these people tl1rough f:-ir. Eun"i:?
 ·337

l
;,.,

~
~

3 suitable-- to take on board o.nd some .~not .

I
g, 1'Aoon9st those "He clecided to r~crui tr i·1Jr .. l-1L1nt

5 ·told me afteD,\7 arclsF some \·1ere some· v1ho haO been

7 !-cilled I belie,1e the figure !·las 22 menr including ti-10

b \-Jl10 \; ere l1an9ecl :r:rcm a bea.n1 in a garage.

7

\
r~1r ~· '-h·
Hunt v1as explaining i:_.J.s toi· me not
9

10 gr&··tui tously !:'Jut bJ:~ rneans ~f impre.'ssing Ort me '"e \·:ere

lJ.

12 c!oes i1ot seei: Oite's J?astor or rabbi for that. kind ot

1 .,
•.
---·
141

15 been acquainted before vou were introduced to them?

16 Previously.

,-
- I

1 r, participa c2d in a pJ.2ln to kill an .fuuericar1 citizen ir1

1

- "
19 .the Dnited States.

20 <1Al·JS1:JEP..: \.•Jell, there came a time in Februaryr I

21 believe, of 1972 \Vhen r11r. Hunt came to me .. Th.is v1as

~ .,
L..:.. \·1hen I \·1as in the employ as General Col1nsel of the

23 Conmittee to ?.e-elect t11e PresiGent as a co,1e:r for: ra~t

24 actual err.ployr:1ent., ;-1hich '.'!2.S the running of the 1972

?~
-~ Repttblican presiden.tial campaign'~ espionage r the

.- ::
 1 same sort of thing tho.t proauces the Car'cer -briefing

concerned al::;out I'·ir. ~ac!z Ander son :because, as I"lr.

Runt: put it, "Alrderson had ·r1o·v1 go11e too far, u those

6 \-1ere his words, bec&use in his colw:i 1'1r. Anderson had

7 iCientified one of our humo.n assets posted abrocld. Iie

8 had previously blown soi;-ie technical sources of

I
- I

9 intelligencer such as the_interce~tion ·of the.

10 '
ca.r-to-car ar1d car-to-cc.se telei:ihonc:: cor!versations of

11 Kremlin leaders while driving about the streets of

12 Moscow in their lirno1Jsines, but now he had gone too

13 far in that he had- identified the'.individualr and if

tl-:ie i11cti,iidual v;as no·t cl.read}.' dea.d,. ur1der terrible

1"
-~
torture, he would be in a short p~riod of ·~ime, and

15 tl1at 1':.e; Eur1·t 7 hac1 been taske.d to ~meet t;.;ith rne and ·a
:' .

17 Dr. Gunn, r,\Thom rir. Eiunt said \·1c-.s" 11 retiredn fiom the

18 Centr c.l Ir1tell ige_11ce. Agency.

19 BY I~lF:. Ll'~IE :

20 Excuse me, hot-1 do ::z70L1 ~pell Gt1nn?

21 G- U- I-"!- 1:1 •

22 BY IiIR. LEE:

11
QUESTION: You said tretiredi ?
1 1

Yes .. r11r. Ht1nt had. related to me sorne of the·

,_
'- '" ,.
25 details of ilis career "'i!ith Cer1tr&.l Intelligence
 339

2 • officially retir·ea so
- ~chat he cot1ld take employme11·t

_,
? as a jOUrnalTst vri th 'l irr.e I,1agazi11E:, go to Spair!, do
1

'
i
4 the 111ork necessary ~co be done for· the agency, become

5 unre·tirec!. so~ I_to~!t this retir~a with _a grain of

6 salt:.
7
7

u
c finisb.ed t:llis somet:iraes?

10
11
11 Hay l1dcrms HO·teJ. ..

l") :tot1 ar1Cl Dr. Gt.inn.

l!e 112.ci c:

discussion about this. -The init{ative was taken by

15

16 apply- l~:{sergic .:icid dieth~'laraice_.;25 to r,~r. A11C!erson.

17 so l1c 'it1culd hallucin.o.·te at a publ:ic functicn e.nd be

15 riiscreC!i ted.

20 11
QUESTI011: Is tl"1at \vl1at 1 s commonly kno;;·1n as IJSD?

11
A1'I 9;7 ER : Yes.

ti1a:t idea. Ee side the e:{peri:ments of the Central

23 In.telligence Fl.gency \·1ere that pcrticul2.r sunstance

24 haa sho~·tn clearly that the application of a

{
\ -.·
25 particular Gose to Ciifferent indi,1ic1uc.ls tb. e eftect

....
 l could not been· predicted.

2 ::one perscr1 \·rOulct go oft nn

,._, ~
c~
h~a· ~rl")
-'""" ~
~~~
!. o..r.:...... tho
--·~

4 good idea. t:~ot 011ly t:hat, Et.1nt \•Jas ta.lk.ing of

5 l'.)Uttir19 it on steering !/tl1eel,

. .
2.rHJ
.
l"1e said '
someboC~~i
-
6 ma~~,-.- be i;·1earing gloves, there r11ight' be a chauffeur / it

7 just would not work.

:ir said: 11
Well: now, wait a rainute.
-\
9 is to guarantee, 11
an6 t~at was th~ operative wbra,

10

11 r,·12.J.r agair1, t11e or1ly v1cry yoll 2.re going to guarantee

somebod}' is no·t goir1g to repeat e. 'parJcicl1lar kind of

13

jl1st.if ieG in 11omici·Ce in this ir;.starrt. 11

15 An·a I said if all I·~r. ?:..n.Cierso11 haa been betraying

1 ,-
~ '1 \ iC.s
1 ' ' • 1 sources or- J.nl-e
i:e-cnnica_ ' 11_,_igynce
• l' i l t 'ime of
L

17

_,,
1 " ~·iarra.ntea a.nG ;;.7e ot1ght not 1:o recoI\lr.1C?nd j_ t .. Bu.t

19

20 had killed already, v12s about to·, and because the

21

22 promised fi!r. Helms 1-1imself not to <.Jo so, that i t ,.1as

gi1.len in L'
L.tJ.£2 1.Jroblem he ~qc..s going to continue this

24 kind of conductr i.:hen -r,.1e ~qould t·e justified in a

: ·-
'·
25
\ .
ftOilll ClC:.e.
. -:
 3 41

1 immediately ana the remainder of the conference \·1as

2 1' ho~·l to go about it.

3
• ~ • l '.i-
'1 single L.aole1... of 2 deadly poison,
.• } • • l

packs i t in .a Ba:rer asr;:iiri_~~ jar, v1e place c in -c.ne

"
J 1

6 man's medicine chest, and one day. he gets that tablet

7 and thatis that.

e
9

l",_ 0£ · st..1ci·1 techniques.

11 11
l..\i.'iS-~!ER: Yes .. It was he whci referred to it as

12 aspirin roulette. Ir1 any e 1.:rent, 'that: \Vas Cisccrcled

13

1 L1 of f·!r • .~.nder son ..

15 sugge.Stion \·1as the use of an· e.i_1t0rnobile to hit I·'lr 4

i
,
'}.
16 l~nder~on 1
s automobile ~qhen ,.,as in a turn in th&

17 circle up near Chevy Chase.

I
18 11
Tl-!ere is a v1ay that 0.5Jparently had been kno\·,1 n by

1.9 tne Cent;:al Intelligence Agenc~l that if yol1 11it:-·-a car

20 at just the right speea and angle, it will strip and

21 burn and kill the occupant. And tl1at 'Has eliminated.

22 11
And finally I used. an elaboratior1 frorr. an FBI

23 techr1ique \·1hen the FBI goes in to sa2' a11 .embassey to

21:: crack the safe a11d e}:trc.ct inform2.tion therefrom.

\
?- EveryboQy \'1110 ;.1ou.ld potentially ~e going in there ..,.1as
·- ::i
 '

31!:2

l uncler su.rveil1arice, and if somebod~r \<Jould come back

2 • to soon, t11e v1ay ·fhe a.gen.ts ir1sic1e 111oulQ be prJcectec1

a watch would be stoien, wallet t~ken, et cetera, and

5 that woul6 elminate.that individual.

11
They 1·1oul C.11 t t kil 1 11irn. But what I suggested is

we just kill him. f:i.r1d the~{ both agreed that ·that

8 \·1ould be tl1e r,:ray to go about:. it, anc1 the task ~11oulC

.I .
9

10 broke llp. P.. .n.C: f·1r.. Hu.nt said, 11 Suppose Il'tY :;1r i n.ci pcl s

11 say that tl1is is too ~

t_Q
.
!)2

12 assigned to the Cuban assets, who shoulci do it? 11

11~ it.

15 ~·Je ne-.:ier received approval for it·. So v;e didn't do

1 r • L
~o l \_.

17 BY !·1R. T :Ui11j:;" •
,,_J ... -~··...J -

18

19 Qecided 111ho vras going tc mal-:e the proposal to the

20 Cuban assets?

21

22 nQUESTIOI:1: If it haa be approved?

If it had been :=.ppro,,1e:d, i t 1qould l12.\7 e been ..

24 BY MR. LEE:
\. :
25 nQUESTIOL·1: Do _:{OU k.no\·J i.f 1.tr. Eurit \·1as e,,1er connected
1

··,·· '.;_st r:i.c~:

-'
 1•1i th a.ny plans. or actLta.l carrying 9ut o:E pJ.a.rls t.o·

. . (
strategJ_c service prior -'co 'his en~ry in-to tl1e Central

Intelligenc~ Agency. When in OSS, and I believe it

\·1as CO I c.nd ther1 it becarne CIP.. in 1

47, I can re call

him speaking in a war tirae setting behind the .lines

-Fir.:.i.~nc3 on·• I
.1-
OUPC::S
_. -~ '7l'•a~
,.... 1.. on°
J..-'- .v1 ou"'
..LC-..:.., ca.i
: .. ...1 . en.erny

;;·er sonnel w

\·.
1
e a.r<= talking about ~,.1itl1 .Jack Ai?'derson ir1 tl1e United

States in that l{ind of setting.

a.nd yoL1 simply not be a-:.-1are of it.

Yes. I-Ir. Hunt Clid ·not re-.rela to rne e~ier-.y

c:.spect of his life or cc..reer.

BY I-1?~. Lf'>.l·1E:

discussion with Mr. Hunt about the need to lie if you are

caught or the r1eeC! to lie in order to set li? plans or progre:rns?

uA1:·1Si1IEP~: ~'Te Dad discussions in general on techniques

and mechanics and tactics in clandestine operctions~

Vle both refi1embered ~qinston Churchillts ma~~im that in

severe situations, time cf war, 0hat have you, "Truth

 344

l is so preciot1s sl1e must be sL1rrol~i1aea by a boay·gl1ard

2 .. of lies. 11

1 •
C..1... ias r So yes, v1e discusseC that sort
. . i
-c.ime.

Did. )'C)ll dr2.l.·7 tl·1e co11c1 Ltsion if ri:r. Hunt

v!a.s caughJc in one activity or another he if!ight

7 c~ctually make a fc..lse statement under oatl1 in denying

''A I:-i S~·/ EP.. : I {5or1 1·t kno~·7 aDotrt uncier: oc.ti-1 . I .·.knov1 that

]_() v1e·\·1ere botl1 furnished for ·t~ne· Fi'elding operation

1,
_J_ alias clocL1n1entation and ·pocket litter, to the

l2 i10E-b2.ck stop pocket litter, a.i1d certairt1y 1.-je \11ould

--·
1 -0 \·:hich v1ou2c: h2\•e ic.1entified !..ts

15

16 vrould-be a.pprehe11deC under the bogus ic1er.tific2.tior1.

17 THose who were not apprehendea would see to bail,

18 whereupon the individual would vanish.

19 be i10 v. ay of tracing hifil because the iden·ti t:/

1

20 establi shec.1 ;·1a·s completely· fie ti tioL1s. And that

21 ~·1ould ha,1e otiv iously req:L1ired false sta tern en ts to

22 police officials anC t·.rhat have you .. But I do11 i t ~.·12

23 ever got aown and said, 11

Gee, woulci you comrait

24 per'jur::• or lie unCter oath? 1i

i..
25 '
1
QUESTIOi·J: Let me ask you 2 l1ypotheti cal g:uesti on ana

,-.,._,.y'-
--- ,-,~-T
. _..: ..---,•- . ··'- ._ --
 1
•c get ~{Ol1r best as ·a. person who worked with

2 •
Jc ill r:Ir. ;~nae-r son. and ~tau dic1 J: ill t•'lr. J:>..11aer son and
i
for some reason you were picl:ed up ana able to escape

5 jur_isdiction, if i:·'ir. Hunt r.·1ere ca_lled before a

6 congressior1al cornrrtit·tee ar1d to.ken an oath; and if he

7 askec1, 0
Did you meet \·Ii tl1 G. Gordon Li Ody and plan

8 the murder of 1..l"ack Anclerson? 1: .,.,, '11.c.t ~-1ou_1

\
Q" you· ev·.,..-.,::.,--.t
~:r.1:.1'- .......

him to s2.y? :i

10 I'IR •. SFfYDER: Obj ~cti on.

11 TI-1E COURT: Sl1s·tained ..

13

J.5

16 r-:R. Sl'-171)F:R: O!:Jj2ction.

17 TFf E COtJ RT : Su.staine¢i.

lG BY f··lR. LEE:

19 jji'.JUESTIOl·~: ~-·foulG it be a cornmor1 e}~pectation ~vithin

20 secret services of all kinds under certain

21 circt.1wstances the in.dividual i'7Culd 11a-::1e to

misrepresent the truth?

. 24 "r]fJES'EI01·1: So it would be very difficult to tell~ for

'\
. '•
_____ ;
25 exaittple, ii >;·1e had CI.P;_ official here and Y1e r.qas c.st-:ed

--·-.
~~.,.
-- - : . c:::: :.~i ~. ~-
 3 46

2. question c.na ga.•.7 e cl yes or· rio -v1he{_:!1er or not he t.·121.s

l

2 • telling the truth?

Depending upon the circurnstances a.nu
~

3
I
seriousness of the matter. i:I1here are cer:tain tl1ir1gs

5 I think ar1y Cet1tral Intelligence ~gene~/ of:t:icial

6 \•1ot1ld den:::{ L1ncler oath for ti-1e good of the cot111try~

•: QLT B.ST I (:l-J : E-1en though i t t,vere trt1e, l1e might deny
7

"
u it.?

Yes.

lU

11 5 '00"_•,
1-< r1-· -J· "·l·
'-' ·,·, -L· ·.-.q·.~-L· '11e·i· i'.n
- - _ --1-
C.!l_f C.'J
--;:p-
\',' J_o
l_ '1-k 0 ·1011e·-
ll,C: ...... !l - :f .c--c~
..!... l. •111

J.2 ·tl1e ~Ce.me or notoriety ~·1(1icl1 :lou gatnect a.s D. resuJ. t of

13

~·-JateLgate ent.Ly in tf1e of

15
cur sUperio;:s to p:rc·. ride 2. contj_r;uc.tion o:E

i-
_ /

18

19

20 <lownstairs and he then saict

...
,'11
__ there haci been this failure of our superiors to

mai nta.i n us, th2. t no funci.s had e·\r er been c1e si gna ted

23 for r11e, tl1at those funds that had been gi-:1en rue by
8
24 E,lr. Hunt haG been pretty much out of goodness of 11is
\"' ..
25 heart, anG that, therefore, it \<1as nov1 e"i1er~t rna11 for
 1 hirnsel f.
!
\, • ::He thought this matter being !something which the

_,
? public ;·;as cOr1s urueCl in te rrns nearly

obsesse(:l,- and l-1e ha.1.ring {)ee11 a successful t.·rriter of

6 get together ana expose all we had done for the Nixon

7 administration, and he expected the bidding for the

n1anuscript to start at $4bO ,000. I was furious and

9 upset anc I walked out.

11

11

14

did for n1oney ~~rnl oi r

15 T
~ o-F .........
,.~- - :--- it for money-. [1'fy idee \·?C.S

.I."
1 " it \·1e •just keep quiet l:ere t-.re '
me.~ be able to

17 continue. I had already long since told ~ superiors

inasmuch as I was captain of the aircraft carrier

1 -·
_;., 1.1her1 it 11i~c tfte ::eef I tvould go do1·1n t·1ith i t anc1 i t

20

'
me could sa11 could reacI1 ft"ly supetiors because of the
I
I

22 hearsay rule. il~11c1 I ~cl1ought v1e coulG cont2.i11 it, and

23 I tt1ought vre ought to contain it·.. That's tl1e rules

24 of ·the garne ..
\"
BY t·1R. LEE:
 348

3 -~
V.L iil s activities durir;.g the

1-•Jatergate period?

5 NR. SNYDER: Objection.

6 TI~E COIJRT: Sustained.

7 BY l··~R. LEE :

8 I arn essenti.:rll~/ askir1¢J you in your

9 judgment, besed on your ~xpe~ienc~, a person's

10 abilit.y to sell fJoof~s 2.nc1 f:ir1c1 lecturer engagenents

11 is neccssarili~t b.c~r:rned it h::: is acci..1secl of sose

12 i1J. ega1 act?

13

a.re some people Vlho aciopt: tl1e moralistic position

15

16

17 co.11sisterrt ther1 t11ey St'tould never l2t themsel •1es reaci

I"t: s2erns c. li·tt.le bi·t

silly.

20 11
! would think either a book ·or a lecture should

21 stand or fall on the merit thereof r not on c

.) •)
~~ subjecti·ve, moral evaluct:ion 0£ the aerits of the

24 concern, I think we would have t6 deprive ourselves

\.
25 ot an extraordina.r:l arnount: or 11ery fine literature.

-·.·: ... . _,.:.· -·.-. 'w •• ,_

-· ;'wr ------~·-
- ._ ·- ;
 l I ha--;..7(~ no

2
...
raor e q us- SL::.. or:..s ..

i
"QUE:STIOH: Can you think of any other occasion Hhere

you talk. ;qitl1 t:Ir .. tiunt r,:he-re tC-1ere ~·1as a discussin

6 abot1t doing soraet11ing ,,.Il1ich \'70Ulcl be j_llegal?

7 Lei:'s see, v1ell, I hav.. e not mentioned in

this Cieposi tio11 ot:her thar1 in f·2.s.sing the entiie

Gemstone opera.tio11 7 ;qhicil ':72:.S a poli ~:ical

J. (! in~e!ligence ano disruption operation planned to be

ll d,irected c..9air1si: the Derrtocra tic r·r:·ar t~· and its

.,
1 - candiaates in the 1972 presidenti~l election.

JA

15 developed and were to operated which I believe could

'

"' lfi be co~sidered illegal.

17

l& 'A1:1$>JBF.:
1
~:fe had f·lc:.rined to scJJotage the air

conciitioners in the convention center in r.!iami ·at the

:w ·time that the Democrats \•!ere in conventior1 there.

Ti1at 1 s Oamagi11s:J p:ropertyr and clearly illegal.

22 ~ 1 QUESTIOf1: Did Eunt play a part in tb.at plan?

23 n Af>JS:.YER:

There v;as episocle int;ol'iJing prostitutes.

25 THE \'JIT.t·1ESS: I am not so sure that. v1ould be illegal.

··. , .... -
... . -
•:-·--·~-~-- .• ,.. ~·
 3 50

1 That 1 s been re. th er \·1ic3ely misrepresented by t.he

....
\ 2 • pre.ss~ What ~e ire going to ao there was tal~e some

_, very goOd loOking prostitutes a11c} ha.,1e them not act

I
as prosti tutesr ar1c1 c(ress them V7itl1 finesse. Tha.t s 1

6 ."Pl1en tf1ey · r,.1oulC i'requ'er1t tbe

1
\~aterir1g areas that

7 miO.-le,.tel Derrtocrat.ic sta:Cfers vroul(l, CLna as :'!70L1ng Inen

9 ir! tl1e presence of i·ovel;t laCies, ·they tLJ' to impress

10

11

12 Toruorror:1

.aec,..,
tc.lk of a

!?Oter1t.ial nature, v1e t,·1oulcl get.

15 BY

17 1
jQUESTIOB: What was Hunt's role in that plan?

19 appropriate prostit~tes. Bis particular taste was

20 to~qard "'-Tery dark'" sort of Cl1ban style l.vomen. l•iy

21 objection there t'las t\'TCfolCi. One, they didn 1 t

22 particularl:;r attract me. I like the more blonde

23

24
,.
•,
25 1;'7ith coulG.n 1 t speak Er!glish. I said we are going to

-- ....... ,., .... ·,··. ~.

c -~ _: : {. ~ - -:-- (."
.'
I 3 51

l 1'1ave a problen1 v1ith thern uri.c1erstandi11g \·1h2.t they are

• say·ing and irrteriogating .

-
2

4 given to Mr. Sturgis~ and Mr. Sturgis produced two

5 'Iery bE:a_uti:Eul ~~nglo Sa.~~on 1qome11 t:il10 ~,.,rere school

6 teacb.er s ct11d presumaJ)ly spoke the, l angua.ge v.7ell. I

7 never met the!nr just sa\·1 still ph.otograrJ!1s o:E the1c1:

\.
9 "QiJE.STIOl""!: Did I-ll1nt tell :lou ho~v he k11e•l7 t11e.se Cl1:0an

10 pri:·sti tute.s?

]_l 11
Al:i S\·J ER : 1·1 o. BL1t I think in ar:y Tttaj or city of tl1e

12

13

froa tha.t. I doi1 1 t think that ta,kes a great Ge~l of

15 ta.lent.

" r
.l.O

intercept t11e ractio con1E1unicatior1s of tl1e Democratic

campa~9n aircr&ft. I think that rnay or may not ur10er

-..·
19 the FCC rules be illegal. I don't recall ..

20 "c.JUESTIOf:I: Ii-las Ht.int ini:Jolved in that plan?

21 11
,.~JJS·JER: Yes.

22 11
QLTESTIC1 t7: ~:fere any of these plans approved of?

23 Some of them r,·1ere; ~{es. Tl1e problem ·~·1c:_s

24 ~chat ;,·1e 11ac1 been prorrrised a budget of $1;000 ;000.

25 When I presented a million dollar plan, the objection

.,.... - -:-;- -~ ....-,. _. _..,_

~: - - ·- -· !
 .

352

was to the million dollars. AnCl ·then the~'[ sa.icl come

1
.. ·.
2 back, vle v1ill try 1121£ a millionr and t11e::_( objected

3
. i
4 ' 1 ~-t!hat \'72.s apprO\led \qas tl:e bre2.kings in and

There 1,.;ere :EoL1r that \•Jere .approved, l.'7ire

6 tap and oral coE1r.1ur1ir1ca.tior1s interceptic11 tl1rough

7 I think tl-1ere 1·1as c.lso approvec1

9 the;/ Ci.idn't steal anything,· tl1ey t:Toulc1 p!1oi:ograp'r1 it,

10 t:1l1e:.t hav·e you.

11 HQUES'J:'IOI·T: Did Ht1nt play a part in these programs?

l2 II AL·T Sill EF:. : Yes, 3unt was the controller for those

13 pecple~

1 4. ~ 1 (~UESTION: ~That is a controller?

15 11
Al'lS:JEP..: ~-VelJ., He
1 had a uc.n: for ,e;.:araple, in the

15 I·.1uski~ carrtpa.ign \•11-.:.o r:Jas dri..,:ing :E:or theIJ, and he

17

told to take elsewhere.

19 nHe 1.·1ould go sorne;;. lace, pho'cOgraph them, bring

1

20 them to r·ir. Hunt. r·.-1r. Hunt l.'lOUlC p2.y -him his stipend

21 a.ncl r-::r. I:tunt v1ol1ld giv"'"e plea the prodl1ct.

22 particular activity.

23 Did Hunt ever raise any questions while

24 there were discussions about these plans that these

25 plans could in·t.er:Eere \?ith the democratic process,

... .-·.~.··'····j..-.~:: ........ ~,····:·:-

I
w•."' r~
 l sma.11 r1 c1u-, anC! therefore r_:;cssibl:[ tlI\'fart the :·.Jill C·f

,/-''\ 2. • i:l-.te F-_rnerica.n peof)le on election da.y? Dia he ever sa.y

-.-"
tj Becc.L1se the position I took, and I

5 beliei;1e t1e agreed ~..1i tl1 it; \'las \·1hat i·1e \1lere. trying to

6 Oo v1as ge-t inforrri.a·tion, not false information, but

7 c.ccur2.t informa.tion ai)OtJt otl"1er canclic1ates anc1 then

8 expose the1n t.o the Ar::erica.n people so thP•:' could. make

.~.--.
-·

9 their aecision intell~gently.

10

11 Senator Huskie in that he had difficulty controlling

12 bis emotions, could breal~ down.

13 ~·1ould be a disaster for )che fJnited Statr::;s o:E P..r-1erica

l '1 for r.1uskie to break before £.reshnev, better: h2 break

15

16 t:'tctivities to bring something lil~2 that a!Jot1t,.

17
Q
l '·' elir.1inatec1 as the cc..nC.idat.e. I \·1oulC take tll.2

J.9 position tl1c.t i;qoulC: riot: 11arm the democratic process,.

20 V!ith a small 11
d 11 ... Itts an advantage. It 1 s my belief

21 Mr. Hunt agreed with that positiop.

22 "QUESTIOi:l: As I rec2ll, reading the story at the L •

LJ.ffie

23 1-!r. c•!uskie cried when he talked about the attack upon

21;..
i
'
25 Yes ..

r<'=-=~,,...~-:1
... . .
 354

1 r 1 QUE"iSTIOl~1: ~-·Tas the- attac;z upon his \·-life some-'cl1ing you

2 •
-0
J
\1Jha t ltad
i . .1
!; occurred I believe •,vc.s ~.·]omen· s ~·Je.:tr Do.i_y, a

5 publicationr had 2. \•!Oma11 \·1110 h..a:'} \Vritter-i a.n article

6 severely critical of Mrs. Muskie. we got -- it was

7 then repeated in r1er,·;s•11eek or soli.1e' other niagc.zine. Ir1

8 ar1y eventr v.1e got access tc it. 1

10 to· investiga:ce one of the tactics· usecl by 'cl-ie

11 Democratic Party agai11st Ricl12.rd I·ii:cor1 ag~ins-c

12

13 tbe Dis·trict: of Colt1n1J)i.2~,.. Rrld ):'l~ars c.ncl ~~ea.rs ago, a..s

l •\

15 the District 0£ Colt1rnbic., tI-1e:l hc.d restricted

16 CO'.'er!~nts no blacks C•r .Je\·!S or 2.n.yt:hing like tl-1at.

11
17 The~' ha<J. been. declc.!:"ed yec.rs ago to ?e contrary

]_ -S to pi_1blic pc.rt:fr riull,. •;ciG,. not1"1ing, but they are

lS all floating around still in some of these old ~eeas.

..
·
..
20 ~i!hat the~/ Oid is take a deed I:Ji;..:on had signed, i;1rote

21 a big red circle sa:/ins uFor Shar:teu and distributed

?~
-L it in the black areas, to the detrir:ter1t. of the

23 t~ixon s campaigr1. Remembering tl-12t, c.nd \·1hat goes

1

24 arour1d comes aroL1nd,. \'le took the ;-~uskie article,. r:·ut.

f
...... ,.,
25
 355

l that. -
!'··-
2 •u0UPSTI01i: That ~as the attack on Mrs. Muskie?

3 T'ria-t v-1c.s tf1e attack on I··~rs. i>luskier and that

4 got him upset.

5 BY l>lB... LE.E:

7 Hun.t?

8 ti/\J.·1.SVJE.R: A nt1TEber of years a.go \'iiiliam F. BuckJ.~)'r

9 Jr., celebrat2d.the 15th cnniversary of nis

.10

_ll

12 ;,vc.s E!ot.·1arCi r~L1nt ..

.1.3

dic1 not ·speak.

''Q UES':L1IOii: I think you can clarify that by telling

17 last meeting with ~r. Eunt at that· time in which he

10 stated --
- '
19 It \\'C.S in the District of Columbia Jcti·l, the

old D.C·. Jailr \'!here I•1r. Hunt, Ir and c. nurnber of

21 Cubans,. perho.ps all cf them.~ t.;e.re being 11eld.

22 pri saner.

nAnd HL1nt sa..iC, "I ~'!ant to hc.ve a meeting with

" - "
An.d so we QlO. And
24

25 at that meetir1g 11e said that,. in effect,. "The game is

.,--·· -r:i:--;·!.--- .... - •' •: .: . .; - 'l

""'; - ·- .-, : ~ 2 ·: f - .-·- .'-
 .
.

35S

J. l1p, the go1.7ernment has the Cc}essa :EileSr t!-1ere is r1ot 1

2
"T --.. ~:;-
_, P.:r. r-1t1n(~1
.L.
arn goir1g to cooperate ''li t11 the
i
governwent .. r; F.. nd I just got u.p c.nd· l.'lalked out and I
.

c
_, ha,1e never sr:·oken ·to him since.

7 your feeling?

My feeling was revulsion, anger, digus~.' et

·. cetera~ ..

10 I have no other suestions ..

.

11 r:;.:J\i-!II:iATI01'1 EY. COU£i.SEL FOR 'l'I-I:S J?LAii'TTIFF

___
l "'.'
,)
~ 1 ~UESTICU: Ur. Liday, do you have any reason to t~ink

14

J.5 F.:enne<ly r aic.1e(] a.nd abeJcted the killing or c:onspired

to co~er up the l~illing of President ~enne2y.

17 J: .hav·e no sucl1 reason to

19 (At t11is tirne tl1e 13eposition of George GorUor1 Lil)by

20 was conclucieCi.)

21 At this Your Honor, the Defendant s 1

22 rest ..

23 'l'Ii:E COUF_T: Reb12ttal ..

24 i"iR. DTJrrr-~ELI...r: Yes, YOI-1.r Eerier .. Tl1e plaintiff ~·1ot1ld

call as a witness Blizabeth Mcintosh.

... - -:--··· . ··. -····.,. -··

-'·.
·- •, - . -: .. -- ·-....- .-
;_
; . ·----·-... ....,... ,_
.;
 357

l
,
2
.?,_t- the bench ..
3
(At the ber1cl1.)

rrI-IE COfJRT: This lacly is not listec1 as a l,.;itness.

i:ilF.. Lhl1E: She appears to be an alibi witness.

7

8 She is here to impeach what Marita Lorenz said about whera

9 Ho~·:arC I-lunt ."1.'72·S- on 1'1ovember 22nd, 1953 mirc.culously v10.s

10 obtaineci as c:. l;1itr1ess irt -tb.e last eigl-1t days after 7 j_n fact.: I

11 had a conference with Mr. Lane about witnesses, and she is an

l •j
She will contradict it
-~

13 woul~ 0e an incre~j.ble storv.

This is an alibi witness who :t-Iunt spoke

15 of rr.any, :m2.r1y y·ears ago, ';Jarious repor·ts that I hc.-\7e confronteCt

16 him with, this ,;)c;s J(;:icwn tc th2m bu-t one the esser:ti2.l

We took the deposition of Morita Lorenz whe~e she

19
20 rnade her stc..tet:lent clec~r tl1a·t vre read today tc.ken on January

21 11th ':re raet jt1st a little ~"i1ile ago aJJout ~·1itr:ess, VJe r.tet on

22 the Frida~~ iri. my office in 1\Jel:l ;{erk City before the trial

23 began.
l'le Tltet on Sunda:i in !•1iami and got another final
..... '·....
·- .. ~

'This \'ias a month arter.

25 \·1itness list.

---..-: - -···-···
-~ - ... - ..
.: :-- r•
 .
.

358

1 This is an alibi witness.

. : .. · 2

3 perso11 on thls planet ev·er said r1c•:1circ1 I-:Iunt v1as in Dc.llas on

7 I-lot.•1ard r-1unt Is presence .on J:JO\Tember 22.

l·Jc11: i:E f-1ari t.c. Lore11z ne•;er c.:1n1e in t11i s

S courtroom ·it would nbt be competent to bring a witness in here

10 ·to say T,-;here· I-Jo\·;ard I~L1r2t 1112s on :i:"!ov 12rnber 2J.·st or October 10th

ll of 1.963. This \·1ora2r1 .::lid i1ot specifically see t1o~·.rarci F-Iu11'c 011

J.3 ~-1 i t.i1(; s :::: .

I1HE
1
CCITJf~'l.1 : Gentlemen, I :1c..nt: to tr:t,.. to do i t v1it11out
1

16 nav::..ng to ·take Li1e time pi:otf0r-ed outside the p:cc:sencz of tL1e

17 j Ut'~/.

and object if \'le have to go sictebc.r, \·1e \Yill.

19

20 her testimony is .--

21 Tl-1: E COU?.T: If it is to impeachr I mean, it is

irrelevant. If i t is not listed, T~

---'- i'c. is

23 impe2.ch:n1ent she may testif:;_r.

T:t1e information they had 2nc1ut LCl!::-enz on

25 J2.nuary lltl-1, ;yeeks later, i;ve haO a iiual \·;it.ness listed s.nd

~;-':"·-. ., .. .,,. --:-· - -c =~: :_ ::2. - :_ . ·.

....... ,... 1 • •• ·-
 359

l she was not li~t~a ..

3 list impeacl1:uent tHitnesses.

;
MR. LA1'1E: It is not i1npeacl1n1en_t becaL1se i t is a.

5 <;uestio11 of tl1e alibi ..

6 :r:FiE COURT:

7 ( Sic:ebar corlf erence concluCted 4)

~'JI l1 I·~1~.ss:
1
10 TEIE EJ.izcbetJ1 l'·lcini:osh ..
1

12

10 A In tlie CI1\ Off ice.

_,
l -; Did you l'10rk \Vith Ho~·.re.rd Hunt in tl1e CIF\ office?

A I was his assistant.

..·
19 Q T/il'len did you first fi1eet f:!r .. HEnt?

20 A I t•1as serving in ti:!e OSS in Chicago behir16 Jc~c1e lir1es ~11itl1

22 Q Where was it in Washington, D.C. that you- were working with

I·ir .. Eu!!t on I;!ovember 21st,. 1963?

25

. "-. ~-- -·-:·,·-- ---~-·

-~ . -~- - - -i -: '"-- •• - .-.---
 360

l
/ ..
\ Q

I( A
-·
It T11ould hai;e been arour1C 5:00 o'clock when we finished our
i

I
I
I

I
5 L-"11.lsiness.

I·
I
1·
I 7 I-Junt Orl .1'1ov-ember 22nd, I·TO\rember 21, 1963?

A We were'worl:ing on an

9 operatio11 in~volv·ed foreign meaia, r..~1e alt·1ays had a meeting on a

l i} ThursCla~{ befbre the da:l that I !•Jas to go dorrJn to a.not.her

ll building to talk with agents, and so we start working in the

12 ~crning on the material we were using, and then ha6 a staff

material, 21'.CI
.. ,
Lnen the I r,voulG go

15 c.nother office I ;qoulCl not corrre to tl'1e one thc.t !1.r .. fliJnt \·leis

in.

17 Q

lC President Kennedy was shot?

19 A I was down at the other office.

20 Q DiCi you see Hov12. rd Eun1: t11at day?

21 A

22 Q

23

24 rr:rIE COtT R'l1 : sustained.

-··--:-·····-:-- -.---.-· .-·.~---. ,~- -

. .... .._ __'
 36 J.

l l1Iiss f:Icintoshr has an:l·<?ne from ·the Cifl 'orCtered tt1a-'c you

2 testii:y _.at t11is trial?

3 A I:·10.
i
Q 1·1hen did you retire :Erom the CIA?

5 A rren years ago.

6 Q You also hec.rCl i;lari ta Lo:cenz 's testin1on:l al)out an Operat:ion

7 In all :/0L1r years r:1i th ·the CIA; have ~{011 ever bee.rd of tl'1e

8 the Operation 40?

\
9 A No.

f·!F~. Ll'-iF!'E: Objection~

11 Tt~E C0{1P..T: Obj-ection o-;;erruleO.

13

14 A

r·iF~ * DTJ iJi'iELT-' : I have no furtl-1er q11estions.

17 BY HR. LAI'rn:

18 Q

19 A Yes.

20 Q That is 'iHhen ti-ie rneeting ·took place?

,q v/ell, we I v;as in tb.e office right next to ' .

!.1lSr
21 !1C.Q
' 0
--

22 \..Yere in a corrt:partment or: office and v1e \·1ould go offer the

...,
23 material. I t:1ot2lCi go in anG ·tc..lk to him and or he v1ould come ·· ..

24 out and tc.lk to rrte • ~··Je i;.·..7oulC be seeing eact1 otl~Er until t:Je ho.a
. -. . ..
25 the sit down mee·ting in tl1e afternoor1 ..

. •t·-,-. r
- . - ;7.,.-
•' ·.'·
~··:.
... :.
r-.•:.::::. .- .; - .,
•' .......... ' ..
~-
 l·That tinle l:Jas the meeting?
,.
\ 2

3 usually ai:)o1it 3: 06- o' clOck.

Do :lou recall \•1l1at time :l·ot1 hctd the meetir19 011 t\lovern))er
Q

5 21st, 1963?

6 A Bet1,•;een t\·10 · anc1 tl1 ree.

7 Q ~qhe11 dic1 it end?

It would tal(e at least an hour and a half to get it

.\
It 1.vould depencl abou·t five, sometimes \·1e ;·1ent on
s finished.

10 longer. In th.at case i-t rr:ight of l1e just £i;1e ..

11 Q I ai-u it not in general when meetings might begin or

12 meetir:.gs rnight end, Out S}?eci£icall::l or1 l,!o•?ember 2J.str 1963 1

;.

A 2:30 to 3 in that period.

15 Do you remember back O\?er Jc•;-Jent~7 -t;·10 years to that time

Q

16 when it began?

17 A I ca.11 remember about that.

18 Q l~r10 ao :lou recall ;v11en the 1neeti11g enCied not in generc.l but.

1
20 A It i;-1oulC. have to e11d about 5:00 0 clock because r.:1e had to

21 get out of Jche building.

22 Q

23 A Yes.

.Q Could i t have ended at 4:00 o'clock?

(:-. :.· _; Not reall~ 1 no, because we did have a lot of work to de.
25

.,, .. -. - ....... '' '··

' .
 .

363

1 Q Yc·u had a lot of v1ork to clo tha_t p2.rticlilar Gay?

(
2 Yes.•

3 Q You recall that meEting spscifically ti;;;enty-tvIO }''"ears ago.

4 Yes, beco.use of the ne:..:t daJ:" ..

YOl.t been a close £rien0 of E-Io~·Iard. I-It1nt s for a long

1
5 Q 112:•1e

7 A I 11ave.

Q Is it possible that the meeting that yo~ had with tlr. Eunt

9 on t.Tov·ember 2J.st, J_963 encle.a at 4~30?

10 A ?ossible; but riot probal)le ..

11 Q Is it possible he left the meeting at 4~30?

12 No, he woul6 not leave before i t was offer.

13 t1e•; er CI id?

14 1•1o, because he b.ad ·to be ti1ere ..

l ~
_'.) You hear th2 testimon1"' of J11arita L.orenz:, is that correct?

16 A Yes ..

17 Q Did she indicate to you that she met Mr. Hunt in the

18 nigi1ttime or e\rening in Da·11e..s on I·10'Jen1ber 21st, 1963?

19 A It sounded like she said early E'l~ning.

20 Q i ~
That -"

21 A That is i;:1l1at I tl1ought I heard her sa:~l ·

22 Q If sl1e rnerel::l said e,1eningr is there anything a.bout i'7hat

23 you sa1·1 on l·lovember 21st, 1963 i'fhich iiould preclude the

24 possibility tl"la t £•1r. Ht1nt was in Dallas, Te::~as Curing the

25

.
 ~----~ ----

l seems highl;{ lli-ilikely.

Did the planes fly bet ;:ieen \r.Jashington c,n(~ riallc=.s that
1

2 Q

A I suppose.

5 Q
Do you know how long i t takes to ;Ely from \·jashington to

6 DalJ.as?
In 1963, is that the question?
7

8 A

9 Q Lio yol1 k00'.V ho\·J long it takes?

10 Hc>;J long?

11 Q I am asking yo11, do yoL1 k110\'l hc\\ lOng it takes? 1

12 A

J.3 Q !Jo :/OU kr:.o\·; T:in.et.ner Dallas :i__s ir1 c different tin:e zone fros

14 Washington, D.C.?

15 Yes.

16 Is it earl i~r or later Dallas than the ti2e at th2t same

Q

17 n1on-tent
'L
lL. is in :.·Jashington?

lE A It is earlier.

19 Q E0\•7 much earlier?

20 A I Con 1 t kno~·l about a 1-iour rnaybe.

21 Q

22 A Possible.

23 f·IB.• DUI:~i:IETJL: Objection, You.r Honor, it is pL1blic

24 record what the difference is.

( .. !;"
"·~ ... TI·IE coo RT: o·v err L!l ea.
25

\ ... r::.,, ... ,.-; __ • l-

- ._,_;
 365

2 differen~e between eastern ~ime and Dallas time, Your Honor.

Q Is i t possible to get to Dallas in a couple of hours from

5 \.'Ta.shi!!gton in terms of \r./a.sl1ington tirne .as op!:Josed to the Dalla.s

6 time.

7 HR. DUNNELL: We object on the grounds of relevance.

9 BY !'1.R •. LAJ:-1E:

10 Q Is that. possible?

J_l A I s u.ppo se. I don't lmo'11 the flight schecules involved.

n Is it f•ossibJ.e ·that Hot·1c.rd !-Iunt coulC. ha,1e beer1 in Dallas,

A Possible, but I don 1 t· think it is probable.

15 Q \'Th}' is that?

16 off ide, cozy ana nos::i, -.

. :i
17 and in order to get tr2,vel 110.uChers, money, all sorts of things

19 the orc1~rs. 1i7e -,vould hav2 kno\vn, one of the secl:'."2 1cary 1 s ~;?ould

21 Q I11 other %'Ords, if l-1r. Hunt wc.s in,101 \•eQ in pl ans to

22 assassinate President Kennedy woulo he discuss it broadly in

23 the office?

24 A 1~10, he \•JculGn' t Ci scuss that.

(
25 plans to go some place.

- ..... .,
•~w•._,
..........-,.. ........
~
·-·• ·-;
r 366

1 Oh, rec,lly?
(
2 Yes ...

TEE COTJRT: Tl1a.nk you:

5 You ma~l step do\'711.

6 (At this time the Miss Mcintosh was e~cused.)

7 THE COURT: Call your next witnest~

....\ -
~: deposi cidr1 test.irnony .of \·!ilJ.ia.m Corson.
1

10 TI-iE ·COUP.T: \:.Je v1ill take an F.1fternoon 11reak ..

11 (Jury lea'i1es.)

12 I think v1e sl·1ould 11a\1e a proffer on this.

! 13
' .., .

15 'I15E COUP.T: Yes ..

I•iR. DU:.ll'·1ELL: I•'lr. Corson, \Ve haC1 no el~-pectation t•Ir.

17 Marchetti could or could they certainly had

18 knot:rled.ge i lr. cor responC! tons deposi ti or-1.

1

19 T1:1E COUP..'I1 : Mr. Corson has been listed as a witti~ss.

20 !·IP.. DUI:~I·1EI,L: Absolutely.

21 TEE CCi[JRT: 1-:;11at is tl-1e rebuttc..1 na·ture.

22 1·.i:R. DUI·J~\iET... L: tie \·;rill testify f:!c.rchetti is a liar. He

24 'l1RE COUF.T: He has been listed;

25
 -367

I sig~ed a stipulation v1itl1 the -

l I-'1R.. DIJD1LJELL:

pl2int:if:f. 1s ir1 my -- v;iti1 1:l1e defendc~11·t in rriy l1otel room or1

2

·are s·uch and such and all .aeoosition

c witness are to be called
5
6 by all pEtrties, a.i1c1 I·Ir. Lane 11as repeateCily l1ad kno\·Jlec1ge of

F~t tf1is late elate

7 that 2nd he has called dep~sition witness.

8 ..!_or
~ "'.
.ulffi 'Co say ~·1e Cii an \ t narr. e )cl1 em ..
\ Tf- ~,...-.u ,,,-n-~ ·to read deposi i::ion,
9
;'.1p
~·; .. \ .. T..iAi:1E: ,:_ J. v ·- c . . ~

10 fine, but v.Je ·Object for picking out J.ittle yortions ~·1l1ich is

11 t,.;hat l1e is proposing.

12
13 portions concerning Victor Marchetti~ ~r. r.2ne.

T53 COUR111 : He r.tay reaa a.11:-l· portion l1e ;;1ants. to .. If

14
15 you l-1a~ve a 106 reqt1est you can rna.ke :cl1c.:c other~·1ise any part. 11e

16 omits I v1ill al~Ot·;r you to rea(3~

17 Fine ..

iiiR .. DUL·Jl1ET...1L: There are two cteposi tions that on yot1r

J-'-'0
1

re})uttal case. \.·Te ~·1ould like to rea.ci. testimo11y from the· Secor1d
19
I'Ir. Lc~ne coulC. have el ici Jced anything he t·1anted to .. The
20 one.
21 seconCi Corson depositior-1 ltlaS tat:.:en a.fter the I~larchetti, after

22 he said i·1archetti is a liar.

THE COUP..'l.1: Yot1 read t.'1ha·t portion ~:{OU \'iant to r_eadr

23
24 omit tl1e portion you don 1 t \•;ant t.o read.
I :. '·•
-...~··

I
 1 i:·1ould like to read.

1: r.rHE COTJF.T: Then I~ \~:rill make a_n 106 o1)j ectioI1~ Then
2

you will ma.ke. October 21st. de1;osit.ior1.

3
(Thereupon., tf1e de9ositior1;of Iiir. Corson t;-;as re&c!
3
5 to the jury. }

Call your nex~ rebuttal witness.

6

7 I·IR. Sl\JYDER:

11 BY l'.-IP..• DlTl'1~·1ELI,:

·xou are still L1nc1er oatl1 .. Do you understand that?

12

13 A Yes: I c!o.

15 earlier to clay?

16 A I did.

17 Q Did you e\rer J;i?.:}7 Frc.nk .Sturgis -for running guns in anti-

Castro e:fforts?

:e1o, I 1·:c.s not the pay ma.st.er o:r: i:naL sorL.

,.... ' ' J_ J_

19

20 Q Is there e,,ny truth to tl-1at sta terner1t?

21 A Not in the least, no truth at all.

22 Q t-12.'Je you e']er rr.et I·larita Lo:renz?

23 A

24 Q 1:./here v;ere you, sir, on l1o"vember 21st, 1.963?

1

, ~
..... ......
~
l,10'JE:!llber 2lstr I \';&s in \·Jasl1ingtor!, D .. C. as llSUal ..
25

.,-~
' . . ..
r•
 36 9

l Q l'Tl1er1 v1as tf!e firs·t tin1e _\/OU ex.rer hearG the aJ.legation ·that

3 Frar1k Sturgis, et--al orl1·1ovember 2lstr 1963?

i
A That is t1"1e Lore;-iz allegations?

5 Q Yes.

6 A I am not sure it \·ias 197 5 or 1977.

7 Q Lorenz 1 s allegations }cl-iat ~{Ol1 ~vere ir1 Dalles on loJ0 1.rember

8 21st, 1963?

9 A OnlJ::" in co1111ection ~·1it.h the c1eposi ti on.

10 Q Which was taken January 11th, 1985.

11 rrhat is correct.

12 Q .

i. 1~
I -·'

I
""
Q Do you k11or,.; 1·1hc:t Opercttion 4:0 is?
, I ho.\re no iLea.
'~

17 Ee never heard of it.

18 rrr~E COiJP~T= C1bjectio11 sustai11ed.

-l ,,'· BY t~1R. DUI•11~ELL:

Q I·Ir. I-iunt, \qere y.. ou in the cot1rtroora ;;.-;i1en -- \•1ere you ever

station chief in. Florida for c.ri~7 purpose?

7.2 l\

23 Q Vll1en y1as the Bay of. Pigs invasion specificall:l?

24 April 16th 1 1961 through April 19th, 1961.

1: 25 Q flc.ve you e~1er met Lee Har\Te~{ OswalC?

 37 0

l A Never.

Q I··!r . I-luntF ~rou \'lere preserit irt the courtroom ~·1l1ei1 G .. Gorc]on

6 A I T,>JaS.

7 Q Do you kno~..1 v1hat i:Ir .. LidCi:/ 1 S perso11c.l opi11ion of Ur1iteCi

,, r,
States

9 .i:·~R .. LP:.f.1B: ·r object, Your }}ono:r ..

10 TI·IE·COURT: OiJjt2ction sustair1ed ..

--1 ., You· heard Mr. Liddy s testirccny about a so-called Brookings

1
/..

13

.L did ..

15 Q t:7ere yoL1 enga.geCi ir1 ai1y aiscusstort ~vi th i~;r. f...1idd}''" about a

16 so-called Brool~~ngs plan?

17 I believe I testitied to this earlierF but jt1st to

13 s umrrtc. r iz e i ;::, l·1r .. Colson a1: 0118 point ha Ci -'c.old me .~bout s on1e

19 docurri.er1ts tl-10. t l1e \·;as concerned a1)ol1t. or he he~d me2.ning the

20 admini stro tior1 v;as concerned a.r.Jout ov---er the Brookings

21 Insti·tutior1 an.d \vould lil~e to get Jco look at therr, ..

".,
/.k I rela~{ed this to ivlr. Liddy, and he sr:~id something

23 about torching the place, anO I saiG that I vrouldn't be

2.1 resnonsi-ve to t.'7l·1at !·Ir. Colson ~'lt:.nted, c.na I never hearci

......" ...
25· G.r1~{thing £urt.ber abou:t i 'i::..
 :n1

And I certainly until r-.1r. Lic1Cl;l >.·1as deposed; ne>;er

l

h ~ar,::ic
1
-C Li
::i~,.-.!-•...,;
C:..i~J
nc• C.~bou~L. 1)·--.,.~nci'
1.-ii.-...L"-_) >- <...t:_: J.. -;;
or r_E=-~n.
-
c1_' r10_, -_:-ire enqin.es
-
ar.cl qettinq
- -
2
3 people and r1hony Iirf:rt:en 's ur1iforms, tt12t is to bizarre.
,, 7
Did yol1 e11er cornrnit an ovel:t act in an attemp-t to bLi.rn do\\ n
Q

5 tl!.e Brooking·s Institt:.te?

I have no knowledge \'There
6 1'1o, I ne'"ver even looked at it.

7 it is located.

!•\r. L:Lddy testified tt1at he lzne1>7 ;/OU to 11ave contccts -·_v1ith

8 Q

is there to· tl"1at staterr.er1t?

S. orgai1i:ied

I ha•1e no contacts \·;ith organtzeQ cri1ue, I never CiiC!.

llJ
- • :i -· these talse
11 n
•.; Is there o. reason j.J 1. C'..1 CJ.~[

12 statements?

13
TI-iE COTJRT: Sustainet.i.

Q
t•lr. Liddy t.~stitied that you. su.ggestecf;Jchat JaG~~ l\ncters@n

be drugged LSD .. Is there 2.ny trL1tl1 to that sJcatement?

17

18 A Eo.

1.9 Q Did you ever mak:e any such suggests?

A
I belie..,Te I have CO"Jerec1 this before, but I \·Jould like
20
I join \.-1ith the \·1itness. I believe he
21
22 covered all this before, that is not. the purpose of redirect ·to

23 re-hcsh something.
I T:7 i l l of:E move on.
i ".".. ,__..
1...:. •• ;.··
25 BY l·lP_ .. DU~·1t~ELL:
 37 2

l Q iY!.r. T...1idc1y r~:cfde se11erc~l c ther 2,ll~gat.ions ir1 his c1eposition

1

/ ...
:'.•.
"'· 2

3 during the Dcraocrc:-Eic 1,JEttior;.c.l Con 1ention? 1

A r:c v1as sor,1etl1ing tl-1a.t ~vas ai scusse({ by the so-called Cul)an

5 assets do i7n here.

1 Nothing ever happe~ed. 'J.~here •:1a.s no 0\1 ert

6 steps taken.

7 What about your recruiting prostitutes for that convention?

8 A Absolu·tel;! not.

r·lhat a.bout r•lr. Liddy's ·2.llega.tior1s t11ctt you \•1ere cor1spiring

11 A I,:lr. Liddy Bac1e t11e allego.tio11 he hired a. --

12 =J:tIE c:ouP..~: Counsel, he has gone into this before.

;·-.
14: TI-IE COTJRT ~ Do you hc.ve any gtiestions?

15 I"lP.• LA!JE: Just a cot1ple.

16

17 BY I'·1R. Lfil.1E:

18 Q i•Ir. Hunt, you kno\-·1 Jcl"tat I"iari ta Loren.z \'ia.s depc sed in -;:his 1

19 case on January llth 7 is th2t correct?

20 I kno~·.r sbe ~·?as deposed ir1 this case. If you sa~/ tl1 e lJ. th

21 of January.

22 Q Your 12r,•1}rer just said tlJ.at?

23 A I accept th~tr fine.

Did you read the deposition?

,. .
Q
--.. .......
A I OiG.

;;-.-·;· -·. .- ·- t=. V'

..... -· ..• t
r•,-.
... ,,' .. ......
:_ '··
 37 3
.

-o
(-·. ',,.
2 durir1g bhe nighttime e\ ening ir2 Dallas on l'10,1ernber 21st?
1

3 I-':..

4~ sa~:l l1er 011 that date or cny oti1er ac.·te.

Q !~ft.er I rea.d that," clid you decide tl1at it 1voulCI be a good

6 idea to get some witnesses· to testify that, in faci, you were.

7 sorne place other than Dallas during ·the e~lening of !··10'7err.ber

21st,. l 5: 85?
I
9

10 TI-IE· COTJF.T: O\re:r r ul eel ..

11

12

l '1

1- A I did indee6.
-"
'.i 16
"j
,;_
_,
1 ._, I•!rs .. I<i.ci·1anus \Vho testified ec.rlier.

18 Q She said· she sctv; yot1 in the a£ternoor1. The qL1esticn is,

19 did any~od~{ see you th;::t night v1hich \·1ould contradict th·e-_

20 testirnon~{ of i•liss Lorenz \'7ho said she sa.1·1 you that night in

21 I) all as?

22 I don 1 t believe Hiss Lorenz testified to

If Mr. Lane would like to read it I object to his

24 questions saying she c1id testif~{ to that.

25 Re said it .. sc.id ;,vas the

 .
. .

37 4

TFi:C: COURT: QuOte it from ·t11e deposition .

.'
.: '~ BY NR. L'ANE:

3 Q Did you try tO finO a.n2,. r,.1itr1ess \·1ho could place you in

4 Washington, D.C. during the evening of November 21st, 1953?

5 A Y.·j·ell, I did not raise that que::(cion, Cot1nsel, here. I.

6 asked can you.place me? What is your recollection of where I

7 \·ias or1 the day preceding the KenDedy assassi11ation. The c.ns\·1er

8 came back you v1ere_ ir1 ~·Tashington.

10

11 Q Yes ..

12 A Certa.inlyr rny tt1ife a11d farriily.

13 ~nd your children were fourteen years old an~ thirteen

··.--

14 years and ten years old?

15
i
B 16 Q You don 1 t k1"10\..1 ~·1l1ere the Brookings Institut:ion in
:~

17 Nashington is?

lG A 1'10 ..

19 Q You never saw it?

20 A

21 MR. LF.1'1E: - .'

I hc.ve no :LUrt11er questions.

22 I'·1R.. DUt';l~ELL: Redirect.

23 REDIRECT E:U\i'1I1·JATIOfJ

25 Q Ltlr .. Hunt, have any o:i: y-our chilOren e\:cr testifierS before

;..:,-.~-;..;,.,.:..
 37 5

1 ar1yboc1)' p1Jb1icly ·about your '\.'-ll'!ereabouts or1 1110~1ernber 22,. 1963?

f.. ·-· 2 tiot ~o rny kno\•Jlec1ge.

3 MH. LANE:- Objection.

i
4 THE COURT: Objection overruled. Ans\·; er sta.ncls. Step

c101.'7n~ Any further ql1estions.

6 (P... t t11is tir11e I·1r .: E. Ho;qc.rd Hur:t was excused.)

7 (Thereupon, the deposi ticn of Scott 1'!yler t.•1as

8 read'to the jury.)

10 0 1
clock. The· same ir1sti-ucti.ons \·.10L1lO be o.pplica!)le durir1g the

11 recess period.·

12 (,Jury leaves.)

.,
1 ·'
\ ,.
'·
lt.1 assun1ing no moti.ons c.re gro.nted or coulc1 ~·1e ·agree ar1d agree

15 that motioi1s could be mede nov1?

16 The on~_y tlrin}: ';·1oulc1 be applicat;le thc.t I \·1ill re_~~er1~e.

17 c.n:l right ~·ioulG be the accouhtar1t. Any o'bj ection to ti1at ~

18

19 THE COUR'I1: Any··motions at the conclusion of. all.~·the

20 testimony.

21 i~IR .. LEE: Let tl!e defendant Liberty Lobb}"' rene<;·Ts its

22 motion for directed verdict as explained after the presentation

23 of tl1e plaintiff's cc.se.

24 THE COURT: Any 2dGition2l grounds not includeG in

your presentat~on at the conclusion of plaintif£ s case?

1
25
 376

YoL1r tiono:r: I think the evidc::nce

1

rein.for<~s tl1e argumen·t in~f.articular. I would suggest that

2
3 ·the qllestion of ti-ie punitive Caroc.ges should be taken a\•TO.~{ frc1rn
. . i . -
the JUry~ because I believe no ev·idence t;·1ere in or Ol1tsiCle of

5 tl1e .article has been presenteO ~vhich ;·101:-1-ld give ar1y inclicatioi1

6 of ill v1ill l1ostilit::l or- intent to_ ir1jure ar1d CefcJne ..

THt~ COliRT: ~{0L1r rno}cion c.·t the conclusion of all tl-2.e ·

7

8 testirnony for directed 1,1Grdict is c1e11iecl including your motion

\ . . -
9 in parts as a motior1 to _strike t.11e punitive 0aw0:ge.s- that. a.l so·

10 would be deniea .. Are your charges marked. ir1 "t.hr= 1ipr,er

11 right-h2.nd corner?

12 f·1R. DUl{t-1ELI1: :'[es.

13 TI~TE COTJRT: l?um}Jer On0., ·-:111:'/ objections?

!
\

14 1''1P.. LEE: T:1o,. YOL1r "f-Ionor.

!YIP..• DU2'1i:1ELL: t1ust to mc.ke l

• L
L. clear, l.'7e \•iere talking

16 about each page•' our ins·tructi ons.

TI-IE COURT: I am going ·to be tc.lking about ir!. t·he

17

lG ..T·_f -~.i o u 1-_,

.' " · " ' ' ;.-::.
..... v '- '""'--- n~.'
- a-'· l!e .....~-'c -i on
~ ..

19 Ho objection to n1unber l.

20 TE!B CCJl1P..T: l'~O objection noteC. Number l

21

22 HR. LEE: No objection.

23 i11P.... DfJI'il·JELL: t·1o obj ectior1.

THE COURT: £Jo objection noted. l:]umber 2 t;·lill be

24
__
! :....: . -- ,.
granteG. b1urnber 3-A?

I~
 377

l
/····:--
( _.;- .. I·'i.:.~. DUt·111ELL: })1o qbjecticn·> Your Eonor.
2

T11E COTJRT-: - 1'10-objection noted. 3-A \•Jill be gi•1en .

TI-IE COU:f~T: ~·Jhich incJludes 3-B, second page. Any

5 objection?

8 TI-JE CO\JF~T: l,Jo olJjection r1otecl for nurnber 3-B granted.

9 l•To. 4?

10 f1'1R. 1JUiJ1'1ELI,: £Io ol)j ection.

11 Your l-:!onor, I o.m trying -to

J.2 No objection to No. 4.

Pour will be grante6. I'Iun1be r 5 ..

13

MR. LEE: Yes, Your Honor. I1.: ~{OU loolc at the .last

15 paragraph, I believe, thj_s instruction should be adopt_ed to

16 their case the tact that a witness pre,1iom;;ly convicted of a

;
I

17 :Eelony or crirne in,lolv~ing dishonesty or fa.ise sta'cemer1t is a

,. factor you may consider~
-1 ()

19 Coulc1 ~ve insert or a crine invol,1ing dishonesty·O,.r

20 false statement: or adrnits lyir1g t1nder oati1. Then insert the

21 i;·1ord a&nissicn in tl1e :Eourtl! line from the bottom to conform

22 l,·1i th the. t.

23 THE COURT: Your request is considered anO denied;

24 number 5. Ari'":!~ other objection to nuraber 5?

'· ._,
r~P... DfJ1:·11~1ELL ! No.
 'J ...., II -
..: I o

/ .. Tf-1 E; CCiU F.T: 5 will· be granted .

t. • j 2
ti-11~. D(Jl11:1FfLT..i: t!o.
3
Ho.

TI-1 E CO\J R11: ~ Six will be grante~ without objection.

5

6 r1urnber 7?
l:io obj ectj_cn.•
7
r.
Q
t-"1P.. [;fJi'1~'1ELTJ:

TFiE C.OUP.T: Number 7. will be gr.anted: no objectio11

9

10 noted.
I-lR. LEE: I 11a\re sc•r:1e qu.estions &.bout that, please.
ll

I-1P... LP..1·TE: U11c;er !3 to clarify £or tl1e sa}~e of Jc11e

12
One,

l:i tacts concerning the plaintiff, ,.,r. Ennt was false st rick the

,- ;·1crd anG.r say o~ not si...1bstc.r:tiallJ.': correct rather than false

1 ·J

17 and/or not substantially, correctr was false or not

IJ:Fi R COURT : Ar1y object.ion to that:, Counsel.

19

20

Tl-IE COLT::?:.111 :

22

-23
Sust.c.inerl.
6 •L
crimes, ·the
1-:.B.• S ir1ce he dic.~ CC DTi1lL
1

24

25 i~terpret that to mean if

-~ ·~ ~ . ':i. ;:
 37 9

l ~erls COfJRT: Any objection to tl:-1a t ,·,1 or,c1?

.

2 I tl1£nk there is no pattern for the

4 problem \·1ith the falsely page.

5
'- .
6 TE-1 E COUR.r.1.1 :

7 f:iR. LEE: Ot1r motionr a serious objectio11 takes place

8
' .. pc.ge.
on ·c11is If I can read the p;:::ra.grapl1.

9 def.enc!ant Liberty Lobby y;as rt~c,l.ici.0L1s in ·publishing tl1e fa.ls1::

10 matter co1,1pl c.:ined of.

11 ry~l1e ;·ior·a malicious I arn afrc:.iC\ v1ill be totall:/

J.3 0£ :-112.1 ice. One, ~s the technical term.

ll~ Act ua.lly Tt1alice t.ha t 110.s i1othj_ng to Cio ~·,ri ~cl1 f eel.j_n·;s, and \·7her:.

15 we ge~ to punitive damages we are dealing with feelings of

16 maliciousn.ess to• conform 1:.7iti1 tb.e con.st.itu~cional J?rincipal.~

17 Tl1is ~·,roulci 11ave to rec~d son1ethin9 lilze this: i·Yl1ei::her

16 tl1e defenCar1·t Liberty ~obt·:/ }:JUblishecl t:l1e :tal.se matt.er }~nc\·:ing·

.

lS it ~·iaS :Ec.lse or hc~"Jing a strong sus11icion it \•1as false.

20 F!ot to confuse the jur·y, malicious ';,,;oula mean to tt1em

21 that they could find Liberty LilJerty \.Yas a hasty d.isposi Jcion

Rather put in actual malice that has no

23 meaning to a layn1anr I think \·1·2 shoulc! but irt the definition of

24 2ctual malice.

2S rL1 LI~ CC;TJB.T:

-I "thifik I e:~Fle_ined tbe.t. le.ter. An\r other
 380

l objection to be· noted?

\\ 2 1; i·LP... Dl:J 1·ll-1f±;T.1 L :

TE-IE COUP?£: tJUmber 4.

3
:
Tl1e laJcte~ 11c.rt of par&grapr1 c counting from

s the bott:om o:t tl:.~. liner. both l:e <EPL> ct the pa9e second line

t1as acteCi malicioLtsly . The sii~tb. li11e up complc.i11ec! of

F.
·'
.., rnal iciously .
'

1·1F... DU t1J:T8LL : J~C)t.1r !~onor ~ I c.ssurne :{OU .nave finisi:ecl ..

10

ll Yes.

I would ask that in all three instances

12

15 changed to stat~ acting maliciously or with reckless disregard.

16 I obj e"t:t as rnucl:. 2s th a Jc is the :-:e~·.1 York Times •Ter~l

''
Sullivan standard .. It is actual malice or with recl~less
17

lE disregard, arid I dor1 t ;,1z1r1t t!1e ju:c~/ to ha.ve dif·fict11t.ies.

1

19 can pro_ve actua.l malice or rect::less disregard so I act:ed -

20 malicioL1sly or- ·..,iit.h reckless t3isregarc1 in creOi t .

.., 1
'·-

22 complained of maliciously, I would add or with reckless

disLegard, and cio tl1e same ·tt;.ing on t.b_e i1e:;ct to tf!e last. line

24 after the word maliciously.

t·iay I speal{ to ~chat ..

25

·:.! . :: :: =· ":". ~:. ;"' ..!.

 ...:.~,

,. 1 •)
..I..··- •
'I.'. ..

I~ is t2ken ca~e of.

-~-..---~---..... ··•

I i::c·n•Jc \·1c~nt. t:f':2 jur::- to

Court ~as Going wit~ tnis, th~ Court was tryinq ~o give the

in the inst~uction,

we will cover in this

C~)~~·.-
-- c..._ • 1·e, c1nc1
-"--·--._
I co-:.7 ·2red i ,le.

~"Je =-st1bmit r \·1oulC:

:; is no~ actGal ~alice.

iJl. I·3B: _ think :~r. Dunn21L·s cista!,eG en one

:E c.l sit::? or reckless disregard for the ' .

a~ CCf}R~: !'fl1ich I covered in a le,t2r chc;rge .. _J
l

'1
!

!
.J

i·1'
;
I ;
;'
;
22
j
l
!
l
F
r
l
i
·"":.:.
\ .:
"-'

.. .:!1 "'.,,,~.,
...... ..---. r . .....,
···~·
- ·... ·-··-
 382

l what that meano when, in fact

2 .,_.,,_._,.J_R rorJ)>,'_i_·-. lflbanl- -VO!" Gent"! ~n

e""\>-"
- - ·- .. ' - j ' " -'' - " -- -
3 this correctly states tl1e la\\ 1, and J~1L1mber 8 v1ill be granted.

5 1\iFZ .. · .L.EE: r~~y _colleagues here Ciel 11ot hear your. orcier

6 on that. What was your order?

7 It is grc..nteO. Tl1e 011ly changes \'le •11 i l l

8 strike tl1e 1.•10r{:l anO in Part r3 and insert the \·1ord :Ealsely ~-

9 before· th~ word charged in Part B. 9-A, D.

.

10

11

12 TI~Z C01JRT: 110 olJjection noted .. ::?-.r.. ~r::c1 B \·I ill be

l3 gr2rrt:eCl ..

I hc..;1e an objection. This is a porticn

15 of ?~r. [,ee' s proposed j ur:-/ instructions I submi t.teO to Your

16
' .
Fionor c11amoers c.nis morning.
,-, . .

17 'l1 he first t11ing I ha11e I care to use liability cha.rge,

19 concerning this area. This \·1c,s an area of the Ele11enth Ci-rcui t

20 CoL1rt Oiscusse<3: I 11ave gi 1.ren ·to tl1e Court alwost a verbatim

21 statement of 'i·1ha·t the Court charged at the first trial. i'.na I

22 went and re-read the Eleventh Circuit Court 2gain.

23 1~1hc~t the ElE:'ienth Circuit Court saiO inclusion of !1"!r ..

7
24 f.iarchetti in the respondent st1perior I c;;!ll it uses lio.bility
t-..,
25 charge, was not correct. Tl1ey saiQ inclusion of it.

-:. . ) ::- :: ~ :: ! :· ... ,._ ·: i··· .• :~ ·'.

 l~0'1'7r \•that t·Ir. Lee seeks to (~o by !1is· plctintiff s
1

l
I. reql1estt!':..i jury ir1stru.ctior1 ~ nurnber 5, responc\211t sL1perior in i:.he
'· :
1
3 firsJc };'Jaragraph tric..t goes Pc.rasra.p11 3 of Your Eor1or s charger
1
and I Your Fionor on Pa.ge 3, and I should say page
'~
:i 3-A, ·t11e res:c o:C it not 011ly __ Cioes it seek ·to not include t·~r.

o !•Ia.rchetti, but tl1e section ·to e::{clude 1"1im arid I st1i)mit that

7 there 2.re raistakes of 12.~..1 in ~.-1t-1at. Fir." T..1ee has brought to ·tl1e

8 Court 1 s attention concerning these statements of ~r. Marchetti.

ir_t this case

Gescribe Ilr. \Ticto_r ~'io.rchetti, t.l1e o.ut:hor. The article was not
J-",-.

12 cor1testir1g that poirrt.

Counsel: it seems whe11 you vressure it or
13

Tl1e~{ sc.id I re-reac1 ~chc.t. carefully.

15
~' ~

16 They said it \~1 0~lc1 appec.r from the evidence l~na l...

TI-IE COURT: They saiO there r.•1as nO e\1 idence.

12 they?

19
not a true statement. I1:: Your I-lonor \·Jants to say 1·1r .. i"iarchetti
20
.,
21 l:J2.S a i11depenaent contr2ctor I Your Honor r \•!e ha\re ri.o probJ.em

22 \•l i th tha. t ..

THE COURT: Tl12y said there v1as no -- he said in Jcl12

·-? ')_,
24 report and kno~·1ing Oifferent from th2.n there ~.-1as last time ..

i-!iR.. DlJI-"jl,~ELT_J: We· object to the word conceded.

25
 ~------------- . --- --·------.--

384

l 'I~HE COURT: \,1Jhere ~:1as that?

/
1' .... 2 The

3 plaintiff hc.s corr-:=edecl~

4 Could I rehd fro:n the Eleventh Circu.i t

6 com pl 2.i nt. Hunt alleged botl1_ f.1archetti a ci tiz·en of i:be St::.6.te·

of Virginia ana is an independent contractor and freelance

8 v1riter.

J.O prove his cs.se: 2nd I consider usir!g the liability theory as it

11 11ertained to I·la.rche·tti. Tl12t is ~·1h:z~ I use the v1ord concecled,

12 c.lleging i·t seems tl1e sarn2 as conceOecl.

13

The defenda.nt seeks to get it in

15 three times. First oi ·all, tl-1ey said they t'iant ·to say v1e

16 conceded it aft.er tl-1a:t, t:hen I1e \•1c..nt to say· b.e is an

17 ir1c1ependent_ contrc.ctor then tte\' \·1ant to e"len fill 011 typ of

20 defend in this case, is thct net true~

21 Th2t is not the law. Tl1e lE.\'7 is if he published

22 sornething or said sorne·tl1ing to Libert~{ T-iobb;{, e.nd i t 1·1as

23 inhere11tl:-l in1possible .and they v1ere t1r!der a dug in"}estigation

24 and the Ele\?enth Circuit italked about that or1e of the four

pr:ongs in 1:1ot.., 1 t.•1e prO\Ted 2.ctuc.l !f:8.lice in the first trial to

..
 385

1 give that staten1ent I t£:ink i1S jtlst. not l.'ll1at the lav1 is. ~:They

( 2.re l1nc1er a
" 'L
.LC~l:7Sl1l t.. ..
Did y. . ou get so::teone -- sent somebocy to
2

.j them --
They seek to exoner atd f ron1 e"Je!::t~thing. r:lr. Iv!archetti

5 didr v1l1ile at the saril<? -time sa.ying ~:le reliec~ on 11im for

6 e,1erytf1ing, tl1at is i.•.7112.t: the~/ a.'re looking for ir1 the

I Gcir1 1 t think ·that is properly clone. I think

7 instruction.

8 tl1at is an acct1rate stateme11t of tY1e lat<1 to tl"1e e;-:tent thc..t he

a is an inC~ependent cor1tractor.

ll!'BE . cc~uRT:

·(-~!?... DUI:lt·1 ELL : I \•1ould c~ubn1it the

11

12 proposed cl1arge on •1ica.riol1s liability that I st1Dmi·tteC. to the

15 !":r. rJee proposed jury instructio11 ntunber- 5 our 1

\Ti carious

16 liabiliJcy 11as t~ be in there that is the oplY .. \·7Cty ·~.,~ can get to

17 ·the corr::.oration throt1gl1 -the c..cts of its agE:nts none v1here else

12 in Yot.1r I"3:onor s charge do you men ti on Car to ancl Tucker to my

1

19 reac1ing.

TtIE COURT: Obj ectior~ to t~tunber 10 is rioted arit5

20

21 overruled. !·1umber 10 t:1ill be grc.nted.

Is Your r.::onor den::.ting our request?

TI·lE COURT: I c-JTI not C.oing cn:rthing, but ruling on

23

24 I:·1urnber 10.

25 T3E COU?.~:
 386

MR. I1EE: No objection.

2 110

•l
l:;; will b8 granted. t~umber 12.

5 MR. LEE·: No objection.

objection.
\. ""

10 I·1P.• · DTJ1·11,~EI.1L: I·io obj ecticn ..

,,
r~
-~
11 TI:~3 COURlJ.1 : l~o objection rioted.. l,Jurnbe:r 13 ~·1ill be

12 gr ante cl.. ·i--~umi.)er l !::?

13

clarify it as to a·qoid 2.r1y pr:o!.ile;:is .. I11 determining \·1hetl1er

J_ 5 ti1e defendant acted T.Hith actuc.l rnalicer you sho11lC consider

.,., e
'C..a.L

16 circt1mstances ll!'"!.der ;·1hich the article ~·;as publisl1ed iricluding

17 the publishers knowledge of the authors reputation~ in

18 conformation \·lith the f.ac·t of· this ca.se I t!1ink that is

19 perfectJ.y correct.

20 I would suggest we insert the terms and work because

22 \·1ri tings in the sense of b.c.'.r ir1g read l1is \•Jerk pul)l icly by other

23 publishers anO publisheQ t110 or three or four of his articles.

24 I arn saying ;:,ql1ile this is •::·:::rrrectr I think that it ~·1oulC be

25 n:ore accurate.

. :- .-
-·. :-:: -·~c ~ ··:.:-..: fi~.c·
 3 87

l TI-JE COUP..T: You want to insert the word and works.

/
\· 2 i\ny objection?

TtIB CC!TJRii 1
: Af·ter t:he· fourth li11er aL1thors rep1.1t2tion.

5 He \·1ould ha,le authors reputation 1 an9 .r11orks.

6
8
7 think it is necessary. We think this lc.nguage is quoted from

an Appellate Court.·
\. . - ""
9 Has e 11erybody. been l"1earO.?

10 ~R~· LRE: I would like orie more moment. If :/OU

,. 11 deterrnine t::f-1e pL1bl isil.er act L1all;! bel iev eO t'ne mat:e rial

J..3 is no actua.l walice ·Ch2\t is t.rL1er but I tl1ir1k--iJc ':JOt..ll~ r.1isl~2d

. ~

but they had to have an absence of

J.5 it was true~ and i L 1.·1as :-

belief false serious dc~ubt v1as

17 I i;vct1ld. sugges"'c -r,,qe rc::v1ri te -tll.at second serJtenCe to.

- ,·.

19 8ullii;1an aefinition if you deterraine.

20 "TI-iE COURT : Further, if you C!etermine t:ne puf.)lisher

21 did not have a high degree of a.>.<Jareness of the prciba.ble falsity

22 of tf1e statements publishecir ·ti1ere \•1as no actual malice. I am

23 talking Jche v1orclir1g from ~{our o;.7n instruction in another :.;ila.ce ..

24 I 00 belieT/e tl~at r;:O uld be incorrect in a J;•OSSible sot1rce of

-
-,/.
~

25 error to sa.y tl1e:l must believe i t T11as dependable anG true if it

- . .,. . .,..
- , -·- . ' ~-:· -·-· - .... ,, ·-: ,.... ·r: :: : . . :: ~
 388

l could be interpretecl to wean tho:t the J?llblisher must l)elieve

. :... -,-

.
.

2 thnt it ~as true.

\. '

3 l·"lR. "'fhi s is the

.
charae that the Court:
-
,... ~ . . . i - ..-- the trz~nscript. I haCt no
in the first trial on Page ~-L / u.C

problem with arid I o-bj ect to c.ny o:E !"·ir. Lee 1 s sugge ste(1
5

6 cha11ge s.

TI-lE COTJP.T: r.rhank you for the argllment.

7

\·rill be gr ante cl as is .. I·11:u'Jbe r ....1 _,C:?

~

-· \
i'lo obj ecticn.

l'Jo oJJject.ion ..
10

J.l

12 gr ante Ci. I:1umber 16?

~he second to the last line if the latter

13
'\

15 I ·tl-!in.t~ i t \•TOt1J.G be much fairer Jco to s2.y significantly

16 unfairly after 1"ecc..use tl1is migl1t impl~l any alterc~tion

17

l D i:ie a minor opero:tion to insert ·the t;·:ords significar1tl:/ and

19 unfairly_ a.J.tered 1 af'cer the ;-;rord a.re, in ti1e next to J.ast ·.

20 sentence~

I cannot agree do it. YOl.1L I'ionor r I

21
22 Jchink the Ele\renth Circuit Court opinion ~.·;as clear Of!. tt1a·c i t

23
One of the facts they base their actual

2-1 malice finding or"! ~.'las there t1a.d been changes in the c.rticle anci

-~. ··'.:. ·.-~ ~. ::• ,..,~_.' !: :-·:('

 l jury.

\ ,- 2

3 cor.una in .. If there is a co1nma in. tf:at. tl1is is a place or taken

I
4 Olri: of con·l:ei~:c is :Ea.i.r r. bl1t al terec1 an_d t.c.kBn out of conte:·:t I

thit1l-~ 1nentio1~1 a!1y. alteration . . ~chat is _1.•ihat it sa:/s.

6 shot1lc~ say sign._if:ican·t alteration.

8 tf1e first trial Po.ge 510 of tl1e tra1~scriptr a11Ci I Cton. t 1

agree~

9 I st~pula te ·to ~he changes ·t.h·ey t1ave propo~e ;'.our t!onor.

--
1 "~

~
·'' 11

THE COUP..T: I:Iurnber ]_6 vlill })e gr2ntec! as is.

13 OiJjectior!
. . --
i-!ot.:::d; '-'.t.. course.

LEE: '
ODJ
. ec-c.ion.
' .

15

16 TSE colJR'l': 1 l~-A or 18-B.

17

18 THE COTJlZ'l' ~

Its ·titled 18, tt1e "B'; \vas erased on my

20 page.

21 THE CC1URT: Tl1at means I have r10 idea ~·.rhat you ha.>1E; ..

r'lY paragraph 18 stc:.rts ir1 addi t.ion to

23 a -- it is t~·10 p2r2gr2pl-1s.

24 'l'EZ COU?.T ! lBr it should not be ~'A

11
or 1
iB 11 or

25 anything else .. It would be 12. Any objection?

~
.i

·- ·7. -.. -. - - --
-•-T-.,- •••
;
 390

1 MR. LEE: N0 7 Eour Honor.

( .· .. I·IR. I'iiJI~t:i:DT_JI_,: r·~o,
-Your E~orior.
2 If

3 Tf-1E COt.TP.T: ~-10· objection, grar1tecJ.. 1'1umber 19.

i
i•lR. LEE: I.·J o obj ect i oh.

6 (;ranted viit.hout objection.

I oon't have c:n objection.

r eqt.1e s~c I am sorrl'~ .. ·I \'7il1 v:a.it until 21. I·Jc> objection to

lU ~U.

LL Ti.:1 B COU R.'11 : No objection to 20. 20 ~·;ill be granted.

~.::n
~ ...... . LBE;:

i·'iF.• · DTJ~11IELL: i:io objection. we ask, as the Court did

15 in tne first trial, to read the portions from the verdict form

16 as part of tl1e l::!l1u.rge so tho.t t11e j ur:/ ~.1ould l~n.o\·! ;·1t1at tt~e

is
19 verdict forming.

20 Exactl:/·.

21

22 t,•:hat the verdict forms shou.10 be.

23 TEE COURT: Tl'lat is •,vb.at I ti1ir1k the 12\•i in tt1is case

24 is. 7:his one ~·.rill be w.y 12~·1 and CT:[ chc.r-ge. You ce.n ,,., or l..:: on

25 ti1at one. we 1-10.ve sometr1i11g ref er reci to as Plaintiff ' s Exhibit

,- -· -i -· ,.. -·-.:.. .-. ... :- '·,-· -..'- ,· .. r·1:;:··:

·. -··--···- .... •'
 l 110. 1. Do yoli vta11t to i;:1i t:hGr·.sn·1- that; or yoL1 \·1c1nt a ruling?

. ,i
t. h int~ YoL1r Honor has covered that.

s. You ~'7 i ti1C!r 2..i-. 7

it.

TE~E COURT: r,11ni ti·,-e

r.·.....-..1.:._ '"'-·
/
\.
9 oamages.

10 f:~R • . DU i·JZ.:iBLL : C'.cn?ered.

11 THE COUR:T:

I·~R .. DrJ~·JI·JBLI;; :les ..

r •.

" •::
.L , Coveted, Your Ponor.

15 TI-JE COl.fRT: Yott 1·1i thd~c.~~ it.

15

' .,
.1..' TIIE COURT: Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3: request is

..
19 i~·i.R. I think that has been ta:~en care of b;_...,.

20 the ei1identic..ry think.

. ~

l L.

22 1·1P~. DUl·IT:~ELL! Yes.

23 :II1E COIJRT: 1110 .. 4 of t.he Plaintiffs is -;.·1ithdrc:~·;r1.

24 That is all the Plaintiff's charges.

-- "" .., .,. . .•. ';". - -. C -~ r . .. h -. ~ ;..·.-; ~ ~• • • •- ·- :. -

 392

J.
1J:her1 ~{OU ha.\1e.tl-1is PJ.aintiffjs r·1c. ., .
~

f LBB: I believ~ that was fully covered in the

'
• J.. ' •
3 lTISL-rUC"'CJ.Ons ...

5 c.s his charge·· and 110 vrJ.10re in there are tl1e r:rnes ?f Cr1.r-to anci
9
G Tucker mentioned whatsoever or their acts that could be

7 ir.1puted.

If the z1e~;ent11 Ci!:cL1it Cot:rt ~'l.:.d anyt.hi11g i;c said t.11e

9 act of Cc:rt·o and ~cucker. c-.re tl-12 sole reaso11s \Vh~/ they coulcI. b.e·

10 held a.ccounto.ble_. and t11ere ;,·:e sL1br:lit there i1e.s t.o be att

J_l instrL1ctio11 concerning t.beir act.ioi-!S as a.gents or employees oi

15 of t1'1e prior trlc.J. tra.nscripi.: -:v11ere::.n. tl;e Court ga"Je that

17 Cot:~rt substan'cic:_ll~y is ju.s}c a sl1bstit11tior! of r::2,rchett' s D?De

19

20 changes, and that this charge that I suboitt26 as I baa

TE-IE COURT : Counsel?

~·lR .. LEE; I dort' t see Ui1'..lt:1iri.g i11correct about th:Ls

ir1st.r-uctio:n.

25 objection .

. '· ~-:--_,-..- .• ,-.-··(~ r·:.:::.-.:;c-i

 393

J. TI-1E COGR~e : l'ti.rrnber 5 v1ilJ. i)E: granted.

'·

3 to pllt that..
'
l '
certainiy • ., I
ta~e your sL1gge sti ons
4 THE COTJ f{T:

i:IR. DLJ1·11'1ETJT.J: l-!.:Eter !?age 9-B~

7 TI~B COURT: Call i t 9-C Defore 10.

8
\
9 Is that alJ. rigl1t, Gent.lernon?

10

lJ_

12 has submitted which makes it difficult because you 6id not

13 Number l isn!t that covere~.

.., i.
O.Oll ·c ·thin!::: it. is co,;erec1 comr:·leteJ.y. I

13 don 1 t believe there is an instruction e~plaining Mr. Hunt as

16 put.•lic filing a:ond tells v1l-ie:.t tl1e· consec1uei1ces are.

17 THE CCiU!'..T: I c1on~t care ~oihetl1er the}' kno\v l·1e is c.

19 \·10.nt c. ruling or ·\rou ~1 1ant. to 'tl-fithdra\'7 it.

I'1R. LEE: I think it might be wise if I am

You c2n:t make a record

.. '
..,,: ii.:.n a 1.•:rithdra•:1al.
22 TIIE COURT:

23 ~R. LEE: I wrote it because I feel i t it should be in.

TEE: COlJRT: It is cienied as covered.

{.
25 t•lR. LEE: I feel
 .·_:;:-
394

l this wonld clarify things for the- jury. ~~main reason for-

1:aking Vhese standards I th~ink the jur:/ ~.rer.~r easil:r becomes

3 confused ort a lia15il.itY case,.. and irtore often the correct la1-v i.s
• 1
likely to be a.n associate

5 .THE COlTRT: i:·llnnber 2 is OeriieCl as covered. I am.

6 sorry. I shou1 d ask cli Cl you l1a.v e any objection.

7 "":les, v1e do ha,1e an objection. \·Te thi11k -

8 it is co,reredr ·Your £-IonOL.

. Tb1E COT.JP.'I1: I:1umber 3?

-.

10 ~R.· LEE:·r think that is covered.

11 'ESB COfJRT: You v;rithd:r2iv it or you ;qant 2. ruling?

12

1 ."..':
~ t•lR. LEB ~ I 1;·1ot1lC: reques:c for the sc..n1e reason I just

stated for the sake of clarification for the jury.

16 inclue!ed becaus~ I an1 af:caicl the~; 1.·.7ill ge,t ~1er11. conf1JseO a~)out

17 the definition of ful~ malice and about the reckless disregard_;

18 what it means ..

lS

20 coi.1nsel.

21 MR. LEE: I will have to go bacl( ~na read it. ! c.m not

22 sure there is detail brec.kdo~vn of actual m2,lice of falsity or.

23 2.S --

24 THE COlJRT: It is IJ:S:" judcmen·t if :tou ca.n shov1 me

25 2.n:z·tning wore my own judgrnent _,_ rdill Clel!}7 it as covered.
 ·.. .

395

,
..
·· ~ - :?. .. TPF. COlJR~r:
-
TJnrcd)er·. 6?

")
J I OE:lieve You!" r-Ic~ror has co~1erea it.
i
4 TI·IE: CC t.JP.T:1 You ;{OU r.'7ai1·t )co ;;·1i 1chdra•;1 it or c1o ;/OLl \'lent

.s· a ruliri.g.

7 THE COURT: !'lumber 7?

8 I•lP~. L~E: There i_s notl1ins a.!)out there in tl1e

9 instructiOn •:1e :Eee1 the :testii:to11y is indica·tior1 o:c · ·tl1e l~ck C)f

10 it in various cases it should be qiven.

I -

lj_ i J_
because 2.na
- '-

13 cf alibi witnesses ~1h0 never s}1owed up. .

..14

1"1R .. LEE: l·Jo_.. autl1orit:l v1e could fincl.

1 .-
_LO -· ~ is norsally
T~
a~ne. ~[ot1 argue it to the

17 jury.

18 char:ges.. ~·:e fcunc1 c1o not of autl""!C}rit.ies r••1e f0urrCl tl1em in pattern

19 j i.1r~l in~tructior1s; but ne\.7 er ~..,a.s an a ui:l1ori ty ir1cl tided ar1Cl I

20 coulOn 1 t fir1d one.

21 Do you !:.av.,.e or1e fron1 the third District Court of

Appeals opinion where you wrote the opinion?

23

?. 4
,_

...... --..-. -- . ~-
 396
f
1 I~lR .. I!AI·JE: ·- It is the 1 5'1orida Instruction.

-.Tt1E COTJRT: ThEre . . fs c. Florit.1a InstrL1ction Stanclarcl.

3 1'-'iR. Lfil1E ;- Is -± t not?

.LfiR. LEE: I c.an't promise yot1 that, Your I·Ionor, to tell

5 you the truth.

6 THE COURT: Give rne a YlUlT'.ber if ~IOU 11aVe a n·L1mbe.i of

7 the Fl6ri~a- Standar~.

,_.0

TB.S .~OURT:

l (l 7.

11 fIR. LA1·1E: Could we raise it again ..

12 TI-IE COTJRT: Just g i1.,1e me ·some a ui:hori t1r. I'!urnbe r 2?

13 T •V'>':l •
•• IJ..J.1.>.•

':
d,.:.:al of r.-1ha t I·l-archetti \·irot.e j_s

15 opinion and therr --

'rI·IE COI~RT; \.•7e certainly· covereC't· that?

l -
_/ I"!F:.. LAl·iE: :i:ot1 ha,1e co-;1ered th·at.

·lE rr1HE CCiURT: Yes.

--(
19 MR .. L.l\~·lE: ~·Jhere is tl1at?

20 TI-1.E COURT: As oppc•sea to t:.rhen \Ve got. Ii: is there

21 2nd it is sufficient and you can certainly argue it.

10
22 It is one sentence and it is one of our

major Cief ense s. The entire article as vrediction that as

2r6 opiP-ion.
··-- ..-·
25 THE COUP~T": The~l· '::ill be_ tole! ar1 opir~_ic·n is not liable
r·
I .

,397

l and ir1 very clear disti.~ct lar!gu.aSre.

"' ... ·• 2

4. Fe would 1 ike '°'

5 ruling ..

6 It is denied as covered.

7 talking about it 7 what verdict forms are you gentlemen -- do

8 yot1 gei1tJ.eme11 prefer?

10 one use ·in the first trial.

J_l TlIE COfJB.T: Any objection to the same veraicts forms

12 we used in the first trial.

-13 .
I have not seen it.

14

15 I have the Courts instruction to the.

,r jury. ~·re the jury £ind for tb.e Plair~ti:Ef E. ~O\·Ie!rd P.L1nt 2.nd
.:...V

17 assess damages in the amoun~ of and there would be words

_18 .. c9mpen_sa_tcr:l bl2~nks. second

19 find -for the Defendant Liberty Lobby so we all.

•.

20 forms.

21 t-i.P... IiL"U-JE: Seems f inc.

?~
-"- THE! C.OUP.T: Tha"i:: is ~1l1at \<le \•Jill USE.

~~

..-; .J f·ZB... T..:Al'iE: Those "iJerC:ict forms ;;1ill be all right.

211 This is En ivportant case to ~cth si6es.

25 I am not. tr;/ ing t.o 1101 a a..nyboG;/.. to a.bso:L ute si i.:ua ti on: bt1t I
 . 398.
-
l ·unCle.rstood both 11ave ;/ou felt t~·10- ho·t1rs a+ piece-~·101;ld be .su.ffer

2 foreclos"'*in.g argt1men·t.

3 I just regues·t·
. I ,_
this thougl-1 t_l1at ones v1e begin 1...he closing ar9uments.

5 TI-IE COURT: Let me tell Y?U what-I- had in mind. llhat

o I -;·10.s t'hinking \', 1

e ;,•1ould ·htive 9 to 10-P.. so \·Ie can sta.rt:ing rigbt

7 at nine, hopefully: we can unless iou bring in a witness. 9 to

f] 10:00 0 cloclt r;IEtintiff.cl-osing; tE:n to t8n fifteei! 1,7e tak_e·a

1

-·
9 break. ·10:15 to 12:·15 th~ de£en<l2n~ 1 S Closing, 12:15 to 12:30
n
_,1....... v12 tat~e c. :Eifteen-winute brectl.c: J.2:: 30 to- J.Plair1ti:Ct' s closing.

ll 1:30 to 2:30 we take lunch 2:30 to 3:00 we charge the jury.

12 MR. LANE: That 1 s fine.

__
1 , ~ IJ.'F! E COS .P.T : - .P J. ai rrt if£ .

15 t-Iith !·!r .. I12ne ecirlier today,T arid I -cb.ot1gl1t :~'le 11ad reac11ed an
'
agreement one hClur and c1 hc..lf for eacl1 v1id~ sid.~ v1ould be •.

l [: TI-IE COURT: tell you because I check

19 this ev_er:l 0.ay .. :tou v1ill call Atlanta.

_u
?I' of phone a.nd ever:l c1ay they ·tell me c.ny tiille required for

2J. argument by counsel, you are not rec1ui red to use it ell.

·.;'! 22 l·lR. LA!'JE: T!1e.:t is a local rule, Your Honor.

23 THE COfJF..T: ?:Jo:- that is -an interrratior1al rule. T':iO

I will not do like

··- opening t•.-ro hours anO closing you !1ave completed, all cf tl·1e
 399
··--~

4 ~pportion our t~rne one hour fifteen minutes.

~CAt this time the hearing·was concludid~)

6

lU
' ·, --
11

12

•?
. ..:...J

15

l6

_,
i~

20

2J..

2L

23
'•,
2 Li

~"
£.~

; -···' ' ··-- ·-·--..,. ---- ~ 1: ·- ,- ._ .. · - -

 .UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT.OF FLORIDA
HI°l\:Ml' DIVI'S TON
~

---------------------------------- '

E. HOWARD HUNT, JR. ,

Plaintiff

VS CASE NO. 8 o-112-J..-l~

r I .t.:U -JWK
gy _____,___
......'!;,

LIBERTY LOBBY, INC., :

'81. DEC 1 a Ptl • F
Defendant
----------------------------------
Suite 917
910 17th Street, N.W.
Washington, D. C.

Monday, December 7, 1981

Deposition of

JAMES P . TURNER, JR. ,

a witness.herein, called for examination by counsel for the

Plaintiff, pursuant to notice, at the law offices at 910 17th

Street, N.W., Washington, D. C.·, .beginning at 3:15 p.rn.,

before Patricia H. Dowd, a Notary Public in·and for the

District of Columbia, when the parties were represented by

the following counsel:

. FR.IEDL!, WOLFF & PASTORE, INC.

1735 EY~ STREET, N.'N. SUITE #811
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006

PHONES: 331-1981
331-1982.
 2

ELLIS RUBIN LAW OFFICES, P.A.

BY: ELLIS RUBIN, ESQ.
2 265 Northeast 26th Terrace
Miami, Florida 33137
3 On behalf of the Plaintiff

4 FLEMING LEE, ESQ.

General Counsel
5 Lioerty Lobby
300 Independence Avenue, S.E.
6 Washington, D. C. 20003
On behalf of the Defendant
7

C 0 N T E N T S
9 - ---- ---
E X A M I N A T I 0 N B Y
10 WITNESS MR. RUBIN HR. LEE

11 JAMES P. TUCKER, JR. 3 67

12

13

14 EXHIBITS

15 [None marked]

16

17

18

19

20
'. ....

21

22
•
 3

[Thereupon,

2 MR. JAMES P. TUCKER, JR.,

3 a witness herein, was called for examination by counsel for

4 the Plaintiff, and, havi:ng been first duly sworn by the Notary,

5 was examined and testified as follows:

6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF:

7 BY MR. RUBIN:

8 Q State your name and address for the record, please.

9 A James P. Tucker, Jr., I'm a resident of Virginia.

10 Q You want to tell us· where?

11 A May I have a moment with counsel?

12 Q Yes.

13 IConference between witness and his counsel.]

14 MR. LEE: Why don •·t you just see if Mr. Rubin will

15 be satisfied with. a. general location in Vi.rginia? Mr. Tucker

16 has a private reason for· not wanting to reveal his· house

17 number and address, but he lives in a rural area.

18 THE W:ETNESB: A small farm in a rural part of .

19
Virginia.
20 l1R. LEE: Incidentally, his reluctanc.e has nothing

21 whatsoever to do with thi~ lawsuit.

22 THE WITNESS: In fact, I'm sorry to be precise and

 4

say Virginia. It's more precise than I want to be, but it

2 has nothing to do with this litigation.

3 BY MR. R.UBIN :

4 All right. when did you first go to work for

5 Liberty Lobby?

6 A May 19., 19_75.

7 Q Where did you work before that?

8 A Akron Beacon-Journal.

9 Q Have you been in journalism most of your adult life?

10 A All of my adult life.

(
11 Q Where did you go to school?
12 A In smatches. Mount Vernon College for Women,

13 Washington International College, and LaSalle extension courses.

14 Q Did you eyer.go to a school of journalism?
15 A No, sir, they v:ere'not recommended at that time.

16 Except for high school journalism.

17 Q What time was that?
18 I graduated from high. school in 19.53 with a burning
A

19 desire to be a newspaperman. Working at that time. for a

20 weekly newspaper that was edited by a former night editor of
21 the Chicaco Journal, and also other people in the field
22 demeaned journalism schools so much, they said it's best to go
'l
. 5

right into the business or some other field of education,

2 rather than have to unlearn what was then being taught.

3 Q How did you happen to come to work for Liberty Lobby

4 and where did you come from when you first worked for Liberty

5 Lobby?

6 A I was"with the Akron Beacon-Journal at the time, in

7 the position of assistant news editor. I was bored silly on

8 that job and wanted to come back to Washington, so I resumed

f

9 the area, about 300 resumes, got about four interviews, was

10 interviewed at Liberty Lobby, ·sounded like a lot of fun.

!,.. '
.... ,. -
11 At that time, r was told they planned to start a
12 newspaper, and my job would be to get pregnant and give birth
13 to the paper. Sounded like a lot of .fun, so we came to
14 terms and r came to work.
15 Q · And have you worked there ever since?
16 A Yes, sir.
17
Q What is your capacity there today?
18
A Managing E.di tor.
19 Q What are your duties as Managing Editor?
20 A r am responsible for the day to day news functions,
'-.c
21 day to day operations of the news department of The Spotlight.

22 Q Have you ever established any standards or rules for

 6

reporters or people submitting copy to the newspaper as to

2 what they should do?

3 A Yes, sir. I started establishing those 25 years

4 ago. There are many standards.

5 Q Do you have them in writing?

6 A No, sir. It's a body of common law that in most

7 newspapers you grow up with, you learn at your mother's knee,

8 you pass i t on. It's a body of common law-type of questions

. ;! ·1
c
9 that are raised, challenges that are made to stories.

,,.....
10 Q Now, who do you tell this to?

11 A A reporter does not learn them a young reporter

12 in one sitting. He learns it by experience. Every time he

13 turns in a police story, you challenge everything, you presume

14 he's prejudiced, you challenge everything that you possibly

15 can, make him satisfy ~ou on everything, on how many people

16 he checked with, who, and so f,orth.

17 iJ Did you do that with Victor Marchetti on this story?

18 Oh, yes, indeed. It would be as routine as taking
A

19 a bath.

! \_.~~:;: ;.
20 Q Now, how many employees do you supervise?

21 A It's an unusual situation in this technical age,

22 Since I supervise our composin~ room, too, because of the new

 . 7

intimacy that technology has brought between production and

2 the news department. Let me count desks.

3 It would be about ten. On the staff itself. And,

4 of course, r deal with. free lancers such. as Mr. Marchetti and

5 others.

6 'Q How many free lancers are there?

7 A There are five that we rely on most consistently

8 and constantly. Then there's more infrequent contributors.

9 Six now that we have gone into a TV commentary.

10 Q Do you have anything to do with the radio and TV

(
11 scripts?

12 A There are times when my own staff has contributed

13 to writing the scrivts. Ultimately, we all view ourselves as

14 worJrJ.ng for Liberty Lobby. The Spotlight is my specialty.

15 Q Let's . get to August

. 14, 1978's issue of The Spotligh

16 Do you have it before you?

17 A Yes, sir._

18 Q Have you read it recently?

19 A A few mo~ents ~go~

., 20 Q All right.. Do you have a copy of that manuscript?

21 MR. LEE: Yes, r do. Page seven is missing, but

22 when you get to that, if you.get to it, you can get one from
...
. 8

Mr. Rubin.

2 BY MR. RUBIN:

3 Q When was the first time that you saw that,

4 Mr. Tucker?

5 A My best recollection would be a few days before i t

6 was published.

7 Q A few days? All right. And do you know how i t came

8 to be submitted at all?

9 A There was discussion in advance of it. Discussion

10 involved Mr. Carto, myself, Mr. Marchetti -- not necessarily

11 the three of us together. Mr. Marchetti talking to Mr. Carta,
12 Hr. Carta talking to me, me calling him back.

13 There were. many, many discussions.

14 Q Were you rather. excited about the story?
15 A Nervous and excited. I am always nervous about
16 a story.
17 Q What is Mr. Carto's function concerning The Spotligh ?

18 A I look upon him as the Publisher. Of course, it's

19 published by Liberty Lobby, but he is my superior and the most

20 analogous role would be that. of a Publisher on a dai·ly

......
21 newspaper, and I as the Managing Editor.

22 Q Do you know '·1hether or not he saw that manuscript

 • 9

before you did, or after, or at the same time?

2 A I'm not sure. Tf'le either saw i t the same day,

3 probably the same hour. Who was first and who was second,

4 I really don't recall.

5 Q Well, he wrote some things on the manuscript in his

6 handwriting. Do you know whether you wrote your things before

7 he did or vice versa?

8 A I really don't know. It would normally, routinely
.•:jl

9 go through his hands and mine, and i t often works either way.
10
He may be tied up, I will read it first and send i t on to him.
11
Sometimes the reverse of that.
12
The title on the manuscript is different than the
13
headline that appeared in the publi.shed paper. Who made that
14
change?
15 A ·Oh, I probably did: In fact, I always do. It's

16 mechanical. The trade calls i t counting. This may not fit,

17 it may just stop righ.t here (indicating), or have to be

18 such. tiny type that it would -- we are speaking of typographica
19
problems.

\.:• :1 - 20 In fact, on daily newspapers we would put a one

21 word slug on here. Free lancers have a tendency to have a

22 headline idea and bat i t out, but it's more story identificatio.
 . 10

than it is -- I can't think of a time I have actually

2 literally picked up the suggested headline and used i t in the

3 paper, for reasons of topography.

4 Q Getting to the published version, page one of the

5 paper --

6 A Front page?

7 Q Front page, yes. Who made up the wording for that

8 headline?

9 A I can say with 9-9.. percent certainty that I did.

10 Q And who deci.ded the location on the front page?

11 A With the. same certainty, me.

12 Q Can r ask you why you used those words and why you
13 chose that position?

14 A We1·1, r didn't think i t was as important as the

15 bankers' story below. I probably rated this the second

16 strongest story. It ''s a make-up technique that you can get

17 them both above the fold.

18 Now, I considered it a flareful thing -- not to

19 say that Hunt ki.lled Kennedy, but to say that the CIA is going

('· 20 to finger him, or the CIA to nail H.unt for Kennedy assassina-
'-.-.¥

21 tion or killing, or to finger hi.m -- my own construction of

22 _it, to blame 7- being synonymous· with. to bla:rae Hunt for it.

 '•

11

Something of that nature.

2 Q In effect, i.sn' t that what The s·potlight was doing

3 by the use of that headline?

4 MR. LEE.: I object to the form of that question.

5 THE. WITNESS: Shall I answer or not?

6 MR. LEE: I ''m not sure that you can. I'm not sure

7 i.t' s possible to answer that question. You are asking Mr.

8 Tuck.er to speculate about the effect of that.. So I do advise

"·i
9 you, Mr. Tucker, not to answer that question in its present

10
form.
11 BY MR. RUBIN;

12 Q Did you talk to anybody after this article was

13 published as to what they.got out of that headline on the

14 front page?

15 A Oh, that's an interesting question. ·We often do

16 that and all newspapers do.· J>,nd you don't show the guy the

17 story, don't let him know anything about it. "What does that

18 tell you?" And if somebody said to me, "Well, The Spotlight

19 is saying Hunt killed Kennedy," I would say, "Kill that

\ 20 h.ea.dline." Even if I could defend i t in a semantic argument,

'~·~

21 we are still putting the paper out for "Miss Mergatroid" in

22 Timbuktu, and ·her first reaction to the ·headline· we want to be

 12

accurate.

2 So in my own mind, and since I do i t so often, I

3 think that I probably tried i t as the paper comes together,

we reset headlines at the last minute.

5 MR. LEE: There's nothing wrong with your answer

6 except Mr. Rubin was asking about since the publication, I

7
think.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, the story is published once
9 we pull two page proofs, 'one. for me and one .to. be .circulated.
10
And at that point, in fact, we tried to build in safeguards
(..
11
all th.e way down the line. '.If the people who .read· these page
12
proofs said, "The Spotlight is accusing Hunt of killing
13 Kennedy," we would have made an imillediate change. Up until
.i 14
the last minute.
15 BY MR. RUBIN:

16 Q Did you get any response to that headline after

17 it was circulated? Letters or comments by anybody?

18 A I don't recall any specific trend of the mail

19 afterwards. We get sackfuls of mail every day. I recall.

., \.2.:··
20 nothing. And I would if there had been a significant tr.end,

21 because I do have the mail monitored pretty closely.

22 Q 1/fuat was your purpose in using that headline? Was it

 l3

to attract the reader to the article?

2 A Well, all headlines are for that purpose, but also

3 to try to sununarize in a few short words the content of the

story.
5 Q Now, let's open up the article to pages four and

6 five. Did you compos·e the headline on those two pages?

7 A I do not know for sure, because I am not the only

8 one who writes headlines. There's one other person on our

'i
9 desk that does.
10 Nevertheless, I am responsible for it, because I
(
'· 11 would have approved the headline and blessed it.

12 Note that the term "admit" is in single quotes.

13 That's the newspaper's way of saying -- the quote marks are

14 to suggest that the term "·admit'' is used advisedly.

15 Q Did we get all of those standards that you were

16 reciting before?
17 Yes, obviously i t must pass our 50 percent reader
A

18 Our absolute conviction that

test. The test of truthfulness.
19
the story is true.
20 We achieved that through numerous conversations with

21 the author. And, of course, we.give his pedigree here so the

22 reader can always judge. the credibility of the man. Indicating

 . l4

page five.

2 That's what we call the pedigree box. We do the

3 same if someone is writing on economics in the financial

4 section. If he's got a special qualification to address the

5 nond market, etc.

6 MR. LEE: You need to slow down, and i t would also

7 help this lady if you would keep your answers as brief as

8 possible.

9 BY MR. RUBD'I:

10 Q Who chose the pictures to be used?

.
(
11 A I probably did. Although there could be some

12 involvement of several people there.

13 Q All right. And who wrote the captions under the

14 pi.ctures?

15 A Very likely me, but not 100 percent.

16 Q Do you have any notes that you kept about this

17 article at all?
18 A I had for a period of time notes on conversations
19 wi.th Victor, but, oh, probably within a few montlis afterwards,

20 I would have thrown th.em away.

'·

21 Q Why did you do that?

,,

22 A Because if I kept all such notes, we would have to

 . 15

rent a warehouse to store them in.

2 Q Were you aware that within two weeks after this

3 article was published, that I had asked for a retraction, and

had said that we were going to bring suit if we didn't get it?

5 A I had no awareness within two weeks, no, sir.

6 Q Did Mr. Carto mention i t to you?

7 A I cannot really recall when the issue of litigation

8 in th.e Hunt story came up.

9 Did you become aware -- well, when did you become

Q
10 aware that there was possible.litigation over this story?
11 MR. LEE: I believe that he answered that by saying
12 that he cannot recall when that came up.· But go ahead, if
13
you can answer.

THE WITNESS'; I'm s·earching my mind. I didn't

15
think we h·ad a serious problem until quite sometime after
16
th.e story had appeared.
17
BY ,HR, RUBIN:
18
Q The letter stating this, demanding the retraction,
19
sayh1g that suit was to be filed, was addressed to the Editor
20
\:... ' and Publisher of The Spotlight Magazine. You didn't get it?
21
Q May I see?
22
Q Yes, this· is· Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1.
 .,
. 16

A Well, just the Editor and Publisher, i t would

2 quite likely go straight to our general counsel or straight

3 to Mr. Carta. I do not open all of my own mail. Otherwise,

4 hours would be taken up for matters that deal with circulation

5 and advertising, not in the editor's domain.

6 Q Do you recall being contacted by Mr. Lee before he

7 responded to this letter, his response being dated August 25,

8 19. 7 8?

9 A He may have talked to me about it in preparing the

10 response. I don't have. a positive recollection.

11 Q Did you use th.e notes that you had made of Mr.

12 Marchetti 's conversations with you to prepare the answer.?

13 A N?, by that tiTI)e i t would have been by memory.

::. ;
14 I do not recall a si.tuation where Mr. Lee came down and asked

15 me questions and I reach.ed in my desk drawer and pulled out

16 a yellow pad full of notes to respond.

17 It would have been from my recollection.

18 Well, what did those notes deal with?

Q

19 A Well, I. would.go over the story, make a few

. :) 20 notes of things that worried me about it, and then call up

21 and say, "Are· we solid on this?" -- perhaps the memo. And

22 my recollection of the response beirig·. to· this··. effect: It was

/
 1

17

shown to me. I was allowed to stand there and read i t and

2 give it back. I was not allowed to copy it. The source would

3 be fired if his name was identified. I promised i t would

4 never pass my lips.

s I believe I recall several conversations about that.

6 That's why I say we had the copy for a few days, at least, if

7 not weeks, before we carried i t in the paper. rt· may have

8 been around for a while. r just don't recall.

9 Q Did i t appear to he a hot item that you wanted to

10 . get published as soon as you could?

('·
11 A Not hot as in, say, let's get it in next week for

12 the sake of. gett::Lng i.t in next week, but I believe there was a

13 time element. We are talking about an early August --

14 August 14 -- dateline.. s·o August 14 would have gone to press--

15 with. a cal·endar for that year· I could be precise--we go to

16 press Wednesday night, the date i.s pitched forward to a week

17 from the following Monday.

18 Now, we would be conscious· of the fact that, of

19 course, this dateline of August, and we say that later in the

1 \ ·-·:":; ~ 20 month., the House is. goh1g to hold hearings. So We can r-t
'~~··

21 write th.e story after they already do it, because then it's no

22 story at all.
 . 18

···. If we do it before they do it, it might prevent

2 them from doing it, and be a service to Mr. Hunt that way.

3 There was a time factor involved.

4 Q Is that what you intended, to perform a service

5 to Mr. Hunt?

6 A r remember in the discussion saying that if we

7 exposed these plans, it might make them back off, and we could

8 be doing him a favor.

9 Q Did you notify Mr. Hunt?

10 A No.
(
11 Q Did you s·end Mr. !funt a copy of the proposed story

12 before it was published for his comments?

13 A No.

14 Q Why not?

15 A First of all, I didn't think Mr. Hunt knew they were

16 going to hang him.

17 Then wh.y not advise him?

Q
18 A Why?
19 Q If you were tryi~g to help him.
20 A The tho~ght did cross my mind, if he can't help me

21 improve the story by saying, "I know they are going to hang me,'

22 or "I know they are. not,'' if he was to be taken by surprise,

 . 19

he was not to know in advance, so our telling him.means to

2 tell him in advance of what is confronting him, i t wasn't the

3 type of story where you go for the balance in the sense that

4 this politician accuses ·this politician of something and you

5 call up the other one to balance it.

6 Our story being true -- and which I still believe

7 to be true -- there's no way he could possibly know the ambush

8 they had planned for him.

9 Q Right.

10 A So how could he help me improve the story, or

("
'· 11 ·whatever? All he could possibly say is, "I don't know."
12
Q How do you know until you ask him?
13 A Well, all of the information I had available to me
14 was the fact that Mr. Hunt was not a party of the conspiracy to
15
hang Mr. Hunt.
16 Q Mr. Who was not?

17 A Mr. Hunt was not a part of the conspiracy to hang

18 Mr. Hunt. All the information I had available was to that.

19 effect.
20 Q But the subject of the information was Mr. Hunt,

21 was it not?

22 A It was. Well, really, the CIA was the subject of it.

 1

20

Mr. Hunt happened to be their intended victim.

2 MR. LEE: I will also point out just that the

3 article itself illustrates, I believe, that there were other

4 possible victims of the CIA mentioned within it.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was.

6 BY ~m. RUBIN:

7 Q Vere they mentioned in any headlines?

8 A No.

9 Q Who was the only person mentioned in the headlines?

10 A Mr. H.unt.

11 Q Now, when this manuscript came in, you knew

12 approximately what it was going to contain, did you not?

13 A I. knew the thrust of the story, yes, sir.

14 Q And when i t came in, did you go over i t with Mr.

15 Carto?

16 A We weren • t sittin<j side by side .. going over it.

17 r went over it and he went over it. One first, then the other.

18 Q lvere you s=prised at its content?

19 A Not really.. I got over being surprised when the

., .. 20 story itself was outlined to me by phone and discussed in

21 .great deatil before it was written. So I was immune to

22 surprises.
 . 21

Q Well, did somebody authorize Mr. Marchetti to go

2 ahead and write i t up after i t was related on the telephone?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Who was that?

5 A Spending this much money, and on this big a story,

6 i t ma:y have been me giving him a message, may have been Mr.

7 Carto. I would have consulted with Mr. Carto and gotten

8 his consent before committing the newspaper to it.

9 Q Row much money was involved in it?

10 A Five hundred dollars, i t says here, which is our

... '
(
11 top fee.
12 Q So when the. manuscript came in, i t was gone over?

13 A By both. of us and other people.

-.
14 Q All right. Who were the other people that went

15 over it?

16 A r can't answer that question because I get con-

17 fused.

18 Now, Mr. Carta.goes over our copy when he's in the

19 office. I go over all of it.

20 One John Tiffany is designated copy editor; he goes

21 over it.. Again, as if he doesn't believe it.

22 Then the proofreaders read the galley proofs as if

 22

they don't believe it.

2 Then, after the pages are made up on what the trade

3 calls the flats, the page itself is already made up with the

4 type -- now that's the way the paper is going to look when

5 i t comes out -- at that time, routinely, three people again

6 read it - this is after all typographical and editing correc-

7 tions have been made -- as if they don't believe ·it, raise

8 every question they can.

9 That is the mechanical process. The personalities

10 involved, I cannot name them now.

11 Q Did anybody raise any questions at any of these

12 steps along the way?

13 A Oh, I remember questions about a lot of things.

14 I. remember several phonecalls, discuss ions.

15 Q Who with? Marchetti?

16 A Mr. Marchetti, Mr. Carto, myself, other staffers

17 whose names escape me at the moment.

18 Q Did anybody ever ask Mr. Marchetti for the names
19 of the people who had given him the story?

' . 20 A Yes. And he was able to describe the types of

21 sources, that· is, let me know the sources. Not a file clerk

22 or janitor, but, for example--this is not precise but--counsel

 >'

. 23

to committee, committee staffer, a CIA official of ten

2 years duration, or whatever. On his promise never to disclose

3 their names, to keep them from being fired.

4 So I never had their names. Their names were

5 never known to me. The types of sources were made known to me.

6 Q Were they known to Mr. Carto, the names?

7 A I don't know.

8 Q Did he ever tell you that he knew the names and

9 that you were safe in going ahead with the story?

10 A I don't recall.

11 Q who gave the final okay to print it? You or Mr.

12 Carto? who had the final say?

13 A I wouldn't -- Mr. Carto would have the final say
~-:

14 in the sense that he would say -- I would have to have his

15 consent before going ahead with it.

16 On the other hand, ·my responsibility doesn't stop

17 there.. Because if he. gives the final okay on the story, I

18 should go r:Lght back up and say, nThis is a mistake. u

19
So in that sense, we had a double final okay. His

"
20 final okay and my final okay, if that makes sense.
21
Q Yes, i t does·.

22 I want to.go over this article with you, the

 24

manuscript, and it starts out:

2 "A few roonths ago, in March, there was a meeting

3 at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., the plush

4 home of America's super spooks overlooking the

5 Potomac River. It was attended by several high-lev 1

6 clandestine officers and some former top officials

7 of the agency."

8 How did you verify that?

9 I'm not sure if he actually came down to visit with

A

10 us before the story came in or not. Feels like something migh

I
11 I remember discussing it.
have happened.
12 They were high level, not messenger boys and not

13 ministerial personnel, but high level, yes, yes, yes.

14 Did you ask: him how he knew that i t happened in
Q

15
March?
16 A I don't remember ~f I asked that question specifica ly

17 or many questions. I can't be specific on that.

18 Q The next sentence:

19 "'The topic of discussion was:· What to do about

'. 20 recent revelations associating President Kennedy's

21 accused assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, with the spy

22 .game played between the U.S. and the USSR?"

 '
. 25

How did you verify what the topic of discussion

2 was in a secret CIA top level meeting?

3 MR. LEE: I have to object to the form of the

4 question, only in that Mr. Rubin is asking how did you verify

5 it. You haven't said that you did verify it directly. So

6 BY MR. RUBIN:

7 Q All right. Let's ask that. Did you verify it?

8 MR. LEE: Also, we might save some time, as in the

9 previous deposition. Maybe he ought to answer for the entire

10 article on one question, although it's your privilege to read

' 11 every line if you like.

12 BY MR. RUBIN:

13 Q There's a few lines I want to ask about.

14 A Okay. Host of my answer probably would be that I

15 was relying on the expertise ahd the integrity, biogra.phy

16 and repuation of Mr. Marchetti. The entire content was discuss d

17 and worried about with. him for its authenticity, for

18 reliability, and so forth, and all of my answers to these.type

19 of questions would be. that, ultimately, I relied on his
20 integrity. That I believed him. And as I still do.
21 Now, I would not be able to be specific. I

22 remember, as I said, him describing types of sources, types of

I
;1
 26

people who -- what their.jobs were, roughly. So to the broad

2 extent that I couldn't, even if I wanted to, betray him, I

3 would not be able to finger somebody as being his source and

4 getting them fired.

5 Q Let's go on to page three. In the middle of the

6 page, there's handwritten words, "They·will hang Hunt." Did

7 you write that?

8 A I'm 99 percent sure I did. That's my style of

9 doing it, feels like something I would have done.

10 Q And did you have to get permission to do this?

11 A No. I don't have to say, "May I put a subhead, "

12 as we call it, "in the paper? rf

13 On the other hand, the judgment would be echoed by

14 people reading the galley proofs, which they see i t in that

15 form, reading the page proofs~ reading the flats and so forth.

16 Q All right. Going back to page.two of the

17 manuscript, down toward the bottom are the handwritten words,

18 uA new coverup .. 11

19 I believe that was me, too.

A

\ ..··."'-'' 20 Q Do you know why that was not included in t..'h.e

21 published ver'sion?

22 A Oh, yes. I.t would be a mechanical thing. Let me

 '
. 27

see. Earlier in the story here, typographically·-" maybe I·can

2 be very specific typographically, a subhead looks -- back

3 down here. The typographical thing is to break up the grey

4 mass in a story. We pull them out if it's inconvenient or fall

5 in a bad place.

6 Q All right.

7 The top of page four. Well, it really begins on the

8 bottom of page three and goes up to page four.

9 "His reputation and. integrity have been destroyed."

10 Is that an opinion? Did you ask Mr. Marchetti is that an

11 opinion or did he base i t on some documents?

12 A Let me see the context that precedes it.

13 MP.. LEE: Before Mr. Tucker answers, would the

·.. 14 reporter please read back the question?

15 [Whereupon, the pending question was read by the

16 reporter, as requested.]

17 THE WITNESS: At the. time, Iremernber thinking about it

18 and considered his reputation and integrity had been destroyed

19 within the CIA, because they are mad at him for dragging i t in-

...
- ._., ' 20 to. the Nixon situation. I have forgotten in what way Howard
··.. :--·
21 Hunt ,.,as supposed to have blad:mailed the CIA -- i t goes back

22 to the Watergate stuff. At the time, it was more fresh in my

 . 28

mind.

2 So whether my judgment was good or bad, mv thinking

3 at the time was that his reputation and integrity have been

4 destroyed insofar as th.e Cil\_ is concerned. Better judgment

5 might have prompted me to say, "destroyed insofar as the CIA

6 is concerned" now. But at the time, i t seemed clear to me that

7 that was the thrust of it.

8 BY MR. RUBIN:

9 Q All right. And a couple of sentences just before

10 that, like you touched on, on page three of the manuscript,

11 "His luck has run out, and the CIA has decided

12 to sacrifice him to protect its clandestine

13 services~n

14 Yes.
A

15 Q Was that Mr. Marchetti's opinion, or was i t based

16 on some fact'that he brought to your attention?

17 A In di"Scussing it with him, he convinced me that,

18 because of the Watergate situation in which he was unluckily

19 involved,in the sense that they were all unlucky to be involved

20 made. him the chosen victim of the CIA to sacrifice.

21 Q Then it was !1r. Marchetti' s opinion, based on the

22 Watergate.thing?
 .29

A Yes, right. His judgment, which I accepted.

2 Q All right. And:

3 "The Agency is furious with Hunt for having dragged

4 i t publicly into the Nixon mess and for having

5 blackmailed i t after he was arrested."

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is this also Mr. Marchetti's judgment?

8 A Well, there he had the advantage of constant

9 communication with· many agents still working within -- within

10 what they seem to call the Company.

11 Q So was this opinion or fact?

12 A The fac:t• that he derived, according to my recollec-

13 tion, from interviews with CIA agents who were then still

14 active at that time.

15 Q Did you ask him that?

16 A Yes. To the best of my recolle.ction.

17 Q Fact derived from CIA interviews? \·Jould that. be

18
fair?
19 A Yes, I.guess. The term interview normally conveys

20 something more formal, perhaps, than a few questions to an

."
21 individual.

22 HR. LEE: Let me just caution Hr. Tucker. Be carefu

 '
. 30

that you answer the question exactly as it is asked, because

2 Mr. Rubin is asking you what Mr. Marchetti told you.

3 Obviously, you cannot read Mr. Harchetti's mind.

4 BY MR. RUBIN:

5 Q You are doing all right.

6 A I was concerned about the definition of interview.

7 If by that you mean a formal, we get together at ten o'clock

8 and we grill you, or our just talking to the boys and getting

9 their best judgment.

10 MR. LEE: I'm just asking you to be clear in your

11 own mind that you are discussing what you personally know, and

12 not what you think Mr. Marchetti· knew.

13 THE \'HTNESS; All right.

·' 14 BY MR. RUBEN:
15 Q And the sentence goes on:
16 " ... and for having blackmailed· it after he was
17 11
arrested.
18
What was that based on?
19 A The same thing. Mr. Marchetti and his interviews
·•.1 20
0

.'.-'
~

with the agents, who I understand told him that the CIA
21 officials are ·angry,. they consider this blackmail, and so forth
22 To th.e best of my recollection.
 . 3l

Q Did you have any files, atthe time that you remember

2 this manuscript, regarding Howard Hunt?

3 .A I do not believe that we had a Howard Hunt clip file,

4 as we call it, like we obviously do now. I don't think he

5 ever figured prominently in a story before. I 1

rn not sure.

6 Routinely, we would have said, "We have a story on

7 Mr. Hunt. So do we have any background information or whatever?

8 A run routinely call for tfiem.

9 I have no specific recollection, since I do i t so

10 many times in my life, whether we turned up files on Hr. Hunt,

11 or not.
12 Q Did you have any knowledge at all, outside of what

13 Mr. Marchetti gave you, that Koward Hunt ever blackmailed the

14 CEA?

15 A ·I'm trying to remember what we read about Hatergate.

16 Seems to me that he was accused of blackmailing the CIA in the

17 Watergate scandle in some way. I don't recall. If so, that

18 was .my only independent knowledge.

19 Q All right. What you had heard before?

• . ~ , 20 A What I had read in other people's newspapers .

21 Q So you had no reason to check that out?

22 A No.
 . 32

Q Page four of the manuscript.

2 "The death of his wife, Dorothy, in a mysterious

3 plane crash in Chicago still disturbs many people."

4 Did you ask Mr. Marchetti what people he was

5 referring to?

6 1'. My recollection is that i t disturbed people within

7 the Cil'. and people who are a segment of the public which is

8 intrigued by conspiracies and so forth.

·..:i

9 Q Is this what Mr. Marchetti told you, or is this

10 what you are assuming when you read it?

11 A No, that's· my recollection, which may be faulty, of

12 the many conversations I.haye had, discussions and so forth.

13 But that's the best recollection I have of the

14 people who were disturbed.

15 Q Did you ask him where he got this information? Or

16 was i t just an opinion?

17 A Again,_ going back three years, I can't be precise.
18
I think part of i t -- the plane crash. was based on what was
19 published in newspapers, and r believe there might have been
..
;,-~. 20 some clippings where people would say, "Isn't this strange tha
21 Mrs. Hunt died in a plane crash?" Things of that nature.
22 But I don't believe that was the sole information.
 r
. 33

Q All right.

2 " especially since there were rumors from

3 informed sources that she was about to leave him

4 and perhaps even turn on him."

5 Did you ask him what informed sources he got that

6 from?
Again, I believe I did. I'm not sure if I phrased
7

8 it and again, i t would be the same type of sources that

9 would rely on the integrity of the reporter when we believe

10 that he is honorable.
'
11 Q And at the bottom of that paragraph:

12 "And now, in recent months, his alibi for his

13 whereabouts on the day of the shooting has come

11
14 unstuck...

15 Did Mr. Marchetti explain where he got that

16 information from?

17 A I believe, and I'm not sure, that not only from the

18 book that is menti.oned by Weberman and Canfield in the

19 paragraphs following, that he had other sources within the

··f • 20 CIA or elsewhere.

21 Q Did you ask him who those sources were?

22 A I will say yes, since I always did .so I could get

 34

the answer, which is always the same, that is, a description

2 of the type of source or sources and no name, for the reasons

3 stated.

Q So that he gave you answers that you really

5 couldn't check out.

6 A Yes.

7 Q You had to depend on his integrity and veracity?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Which you did?

10 A Yes.

11 The next sentence:

Q
12 "In the pub.lie h.earings, the CIA will 'admit'

13 that Hunt was involved in the conspiracy to kill

14 Kennedy."
15 Did that statement."give you any cause for concern?

16 A I believe it did, because I believe I wrote it.

17 The term -- well, looks like my typewriter and i t feels like
18
me -- again, pointing out, as the headline did, the term, "admi "
19
bei!lg in quotes implied it •·s· being used advisedly and not as
I . 20
a direct flat stateI!lent that Hunt killed him because the CIA
21
a.dmits it.
22 Now, in this case, I think he got to be a little
 . 35

bit windy or we didn't think. it was clear, so I would have

rewritten that paragraph as to what I think he's trying to say,

maybe making i t more concise or whatever improvements I thought

I. was making.

Then I would call him back and he would have a

copy of the story at home, a machine copy, even as I am looking

at now, or a carbon, and I would say to him, "On page four,

I want to recast this paragraph or add this or rewrite this,

and here's the. way I have rewritten.. What do you think, is

i t okay?"

And he would say yes.

Q All right. So basically, would it be fair to say

that you actually did the typing of that paragraph?

A Ninety-nine. percent certainty.

Q ·And that you chang-ed what had been because you

wanted to make i t clearer?

p,_ Yes.
Q And you checked with. !1r. Marchetti.and he said
11
It's okay?n

A Yes.

Q And did you ask him where he got this information

from that the CIA will admit that H\.lnt was involved in the
 ..,,

36

conspiracy to kill Kennedy?

2 A Yes, I'm sure I did. Now, for clarification

3 purposes, it would not be in the form that we are doing it now,

4 but it would be in terms of the whole story: "Are we solid

5 here? 1
' And so forth.. And sources, types of sources he

6 described.

7 Q Same answer th.en?

8 A Really, the same answer to virtually all of these

9 factual questions.

10 Q May I ask you, sir, why did you say -- you may
11
know and you may not remeTI)ber -- that, "the CIA wiIL 'admit' that
12 Runt was involved in the conspiracy" and. then, the'. next
13 sentence, "The CIAniay. go so far as to 'admit' that there
.,
14
were three gunmen shooting at Kennedy."
15
Why did you use "will admit" in the first sentence
16
and "may go so far as to admit" in the second? Why
17
differentiate?
18 A Well, there are two different organizations. I

19 felt absolutely sure that under their present plans, the plan

.... ":
20 that they intended at that moment was to "admit" that there
21 were three gunmen, but --
22 Q Well, you must have had some basis for that sentence·
 37

A Oh, yes, indeed. Again, Mr. Marchetti, his absolute

2 certainty that that was the plan of the CIA at the time. Now,

3 I think

4 Q Where did he get that from, when you asked him?

5 A Well, the answer would have to be equally vague

again to all of these inquiries. The sources, the types of

6

7 sources were described, and to the extent that I would not be

8 able either by human error or treachery to betray them.

9 This is not uncommon in these kinds of stories.

10 We have to have a solemn promise that the name will never

11 · pass his lips. And the same answer would be true of the FBI.

12 Q Did he ever tell you the names of any of the sources

13 or did he just tell that to Mr. Carto?

14 A
Well, I don't know what he told Mr. Carto, because

15 I was not ·in that meeting whe·re the question of names

16 apparently came up. He never told me. He has met· Mr. Carto

17 without me being present.

18 And the fact that the FBI probably has known there's

19 three gunmen is something that I felt I had independent

20 knowledge of, too, because of a very fast-flowing hole in the

21 dike called the Warren Commission Report.

22 According to the Warren Commission Report, or to

 . 38

the newspaper accounts of i t at the time, the Marines sent

2 in experts ~lho tried to re-enact the assassination of

3 President Kennedy and get off three shots in the time frame

4 that they demonstrated by the movies taken by the dentist, the

5 tourist, and Life Magazine bought them.

6 The Warren Commission experts went over them and

7 the frames demonstrated that, if I recall correctly, in

8 something like 2.70 seconds, or whatever.

'·
9 When they tried to re-enact i t for the Warren

10 Commission, they had an expert from the Marine Corps, a sharp-

11 shooter, the best. They told him, "Fire that gun three

12 times," and from Dealey Plaza, or whatever, at the scene, in

13 the same time frame.

14 When he was unable to do so, they said, Stop

15 aiming. Maybe Oswald was a lucky shot -- if that's not the

16 wrong word. Maybe he did all that killing. even while not

17 aiming.
18 And the expert could not get off three shots
19 So with that on the record, and me
in that time frame.
20 having read that, what the Washington Post and other newspapers,

21 if I recall correctly, said was part of the Warren Commission

22 Report -- I never read all 40 volumes -- then the FBI would

 . 39

have to note that more than one gunman was involved.

2 Now, whether they knew there's three gunmen that

3 the FBI knows is involved at that point, I trust and rely

4 again on Mr. Marchetti's credibility. But I feel I know

5 there's more than one, and at least two.

6 Q It appears that on this page four, there were

7 two different typewriters?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And that there was an insert made between the top

10 paragraph and the bottom paragraph?

11 A Yes.
12 Q And the insert is what we have just been going

13 over?

14 A Right.
15 Q And that Mr. Marchetti did not actually compose

16 the middle paragraph, that i t was rewritten by you?

17 Yes. In fact, that looks like the original

18 copy, doesn't it? May I see it?

19 Q N~, it's not~ I got a photostat in the mail.

20 A Oh, this is a photostat copy, too.

"
21 Q Yes, it's a photostate that I got from a lawyer in

22 Miami. Well, what was in that space before you rewrote it?
 40

A Do you have the original copy here? My trick

2 sometimes is, to make an easier composition, to rewrite i t and

3 just cut it out and paste i t on top.

4 MR. LEE: The original from which both copies

5 are made is in Miami.

6 THE WITNESS: You may very well find that I have

7 taken Scotch tape and put i t on top, and that by pulling that

8 up, you may see what was written before.

:.. :.:

9 MR. LEE: I'm willing to stipulate, as I recall,

10 there is something taped or glued. I don't believe there's

11 anything underneath. It looks like the page was taken apart.

12 MR. RUBIN: May I see i t when I get back to Miami?

13 MR. LEE: Yes, you can see it. We just didn't

14 I can't be testifying
want to mail the original around.
15 about it, but I just want to ·clarify the problem.
16
BY MR. RUBIN:
17 The last sentence of that paragraph in
Q All right.
18
the middle:
19
"The conspiracy involved many more people than
20
'·. .'·>' ' the ones who actually fired at Kennedy, both
21
agencies may now admit."
22 Who changed the last two words from "privately believed"
,..
' r
. 41

to "may no\"1 ad.mi t? 11

2 A That looks like and feels like me. And if I can

3 reconstruct only from memory, in reading that to Victor

4 Marchetti, he may have said to me, it's a little stronger,

5 and we can now say they might admit i t when these hearings

6 come out. So he may have recommended that change. Or if

7 I did it, if I changed it, myself, before calling him, then

8 that's the way I read it to him.

9 Or, in any event, I would have read i t back, "may

10 now admit" instead of "privately believed."

.-
( 11
I.
11 Q Did he actually see this whole manuscript with all
12 of the changes and editing before it was published?
13 He might have. I don't know.
A

14
Q Did he ever make any changes from the time he
15 submitted the original for publication?
16 Other than the ones that we
A I don't· think so.
17
made and were approved by phone, and stylized particular
18
changes. I don't think he made any physical changes at all.
19
Q Why, sir, did you feel i t was necessary to put in
20
this middle paragraph between the two on that page?
21
A I thought i t helped the clarity of it.
22
Q Well, the top paragraph. ends with,
'
. 42

"And now, in recent months, his alibi for his

2 whereabouts on the day of the shooting has come

3 unstuck .. n

4 And the next setence in the same type is:

5 "A. J. Weberman and Michael Canfield, authors

6 of 'Coup d'etat In.America," published pictures

7 of three apparent bums who were arrested at

8 Dealy Plaza ... "

9 Doesn't that go along with the top paragraph, instead of the

10 thing in the middle?

c·· 11 A For strict coherency, this would. naturally follow

12 that, yes, as he wrote it, but I felt it was necessary, all

13 the way down on page four, to remind the readers that we are

14 talking about -- or have we mentioned earlier -- that the

15 hearings are coming up later this month?

16 Q Yes, the first paragraph.

17 In some points in stories, you do a little

A

18 This is going to be to
repetition to put you in focus.
19
remind the readers that this will-- that based on this informa-

·
':.- ..~·.. 20 tion, they are going to, in this state of mind, they are going
21
to admit in quotes, admit -- that.
22 So it's repetition and putting i t in focus?
Q
,-
1 1

. 43

A A form of focus and emphasis.

2 Q All right. Mr. Carto wrote something on the side

3 at the bottom of page four?

4 A Yes. 11
CQnfirm this. II

5 Q "Confirm this." Were you the one he directed that

6 to?

7 A Yes, because he directs everything at me, and then

8 I, in turn, assign to my far-flung staff everything he directs.

9 Q Did he ask him what he was referring to by those

10 words?

11 A Oh, I understand when he puts a mark beside here,

12 he's referring to the paragraph, "Hunt immediately sued ... "

13 Having heard you ask the question earlier, I have

14 been searching my own mind. I probably started out by

15 calling Victor and saying, "Ok'ay, where can I find out

16 independently about the lawsuit? Because you didn't even

17 say what town."

18 Q Right.

19 A And if he said, "Possintrot, Mississippi," I'm

~: .·... ;·; - 20 likely to have called the city editor there and said, "Have

21 you had a story about Hunt suing? Would you have somebody"

22 if we have time -- "mail me clippings of it? What clerk. of

 44

court can I call to confirm that such an action has been made?"

2 And newspapers do traditionally help each other

3 out in this way.

4 Q Is that what you did in this case?

5 A That's what I feel like I did.

6 Q Who did you call?

7 A I don't remember.

:;',';
8 Q Do you have a note?

9 A Not now.

10 Q Do you have a telephone bill?

11 A We might. I never thought of that.

12 Q Well, of course, a telephone bill wouldn't say what

13 you were calling ab out, would it?

14 A No, I think the telephone bills list many calls

15 every day. It would i:iot specify who made the call.

16 Q Let me ask you, how did you follow Mr. Carto's

17 instructions and how did you confirm the lawsuit?

18 A I remember i t being confirmed to my satisfaction,

19 and I. can't really remember just how i t was done. Somebody

'.· 20 I was allowed to talk to had familiarity -- Hunt's lawyer or

21 a lawyer for the other side of the issue, hls office, or thing

22 of that nature.
 45

Q But you don't remember who?

2 A No, it's been three years. A lot of stories since.

3 Q You never doubted that there was such a lawsuit,

4 did you?

5 A Oh, no.

6 Q And you never doubted the contents of the lawsuit?

7 A I wasn't really too -- .

8 Q Did Mr. Carto ask you to confirm that Hunt said in

9 the lawsuit that he could prove where he had been in

10 Washington, that he had been in Washington that day?

11 A Oh., yes. I was glad to be able to do it, becaus·e

12 that gives a little balance to the story if Hunt says he was i

13 Washington when other people are saying he was in Dallas, that's

14 very significant.
15 Right. NON, at the bottom of the page , page four,
Q
16 is the sentence: ''It· tur:1ed out, however,· that he was not."

17 And that was changed to,' "that this was··not true.

. n·

18
Who changed that?
19
A That does not look like me or feel like me -- I can
20 It could have been -- I
see my style -- so I don't know.
21
don't know if it's Mr. Carto or one of millions of others --
22 Several other people who go over for semantic
I say millions.
 . 46

reasons, as well as others, to make a sentence -- improve

2 sentence flow, grammar, and so forth.

3 Q All right.

4 A I didn't think of it --.

5 Q Did you verify or did you confirm -- I guess that's

6 what Mr. Carto said,·· "Confirm this." Did you confirm that

7 Howard Hunt was not in Washington, D. C. that day?

8 A In the same way, through Victor Marchetti's

9 reassurances.

10 Q I thought you said that you had called down to

11 Miami in an attempt to confirm the lawsuit.

12 A I was trying to confirm that he had, in fact, filed

13 a lawsuit making that claim.

14 Q Right. And you were depending on Mr. Marchetti

15 to say that his claim in the lawsuit was not true?

16 A I didn't feel like I was really·--

17 Q Did you talk to A. J. Weberman o·r Michael Canfield,

18 authors of the book?

19
A I don't think I talked to them personally. I think

20 he turned in the two books along with the story, so we could

21 refer to the books in editing the story.

22 \_:/ Q The fact that you read in the manuscript that Hunt
,, 47

immediately sued for millions of dollars, did that kind of

2 cause a red flag to go up in your mind, "Why would he sue?"

3 A Not the same -- everything is a red flag, but not

4 to the degree i t would be if I was in the plastics business,

5 because newspapers--all the newspapers I have served and some

6 good ones over the years, daily newspapers until I got into

7 this field, until I joined Liberty Lobby, big ones and small

8 ones and so forth--they are hearing people yell lawsuit

9 everytime they get mad.

10 Some are brought for the nuisance value and you

11 have to run a headline saying -- and then they are dropped.

12 So it didn't overwhelm me, the fact that Mr. Hunt

13 was bringing a lawsuit.

14 Q It didn't make you a little bit more cautious. to

15
check it out?
16 A Probably made me call Victor up one more time and
17 say and maybe I'm giving you the impression, I don't mean
18
to imply for the record or in the interest of accuracy that I
19 I would make a
called him 400 times in the course of this.
... 20
~·

lot of notes, and then have a long conversation with him at

21
one time. But there were several calls involved.
22 Q Being in Washington, did you check out, yourself,
 . 48

the alibi that Marchetti claims was destroyed, on page five

2 at the top, that Howard Hunt claimed that he had been on a

3 shopping trip to a grocery store in Chinatown, and Weberman

4 and Canfield investigated the alibi and found that the grocery

5 s·tore where Hunt claimed to be shopping never existed?

6 That would have been easy to check out, wouldn't

7 it, right here?

8 MR. LEE: As to the nature of this question, I.'m

9 afraid there might be some confusion in Mr. Tucker's mind betwe n

10 what Mr. Marchetti said was stated in a laws.uit" and what Mr.

11 Marchetti said happened.

12 I think that the part you are discussing involves

13 Mr. Marchetti' s version of what occurred in the lawsuit against

14 Mr. Weberman. So I'm not sure that !~r. Tucker would have any

15 reason to check out Mr. Weberman' s allegations.

16 BY MR. RUBIN:

17 Q Let me rephrase it, then.

18 On page five of the manuscript, .Marchetti writes:

19 "Weberman and Canfield investigated the new alibi

20 and found that the grocery store where Hunt claimed

21 to be shopping never existed ....

22 Did you check that out with Weberman and Canfield?

I' , . 50

Q So you depended on Mr. Marchetti?

2 A Ultimately, on all of this, I am depending on Mr.

3 Marchetti. But -- I believe he may have turned in some

4 newspaper clippings along with the books.

5 Q Okay. The next paragraph on page five:

6 "Now, the CIA moved to finger Hunt and tie him

7 to the JFK assassination."

8 Did you ask Mr. Marchetti if this was based on fact

9 or speculation or judgment on his part?

10 A In the same context.

11 Q Well, what did he say? That he had talked to

12 somebody in the CIA or that this was based on his assumption

13 from everything he knew? This was a judgment on his part?

n
14 A lie never said,. '"This wa·s based· on my .as.sumptions."

15 In this, like the other questions, i_t .would be saying that he

16 had good .sources and the quality of the sources and so forth .
•

17 Q And then i t goes into this CIA internal memorandum,

18 and you have expl.ained how he explained that.·
19
A Yes.
20 Q He said he had seen it, actually?
21 A My recollection is, yes, that he had observed it.

22 Q And that the person who showed it to him couldn't

r-
I '
51

give him a copy? Did he say when he had seen it?

2 A My understand was that i t was during a recent

3 period as he was building the story. ~~t talking about years

4 ago or months ago, but in a relatively recent period. That

5 was the understanding I reached from my conversations with him.

6 What he specifically said, I don't know. I don't recall.

7 Q The next sentence is:

.-J·,
8 "Hunt is going to be hard put to explain_ this

9 memo, and other things, before the TV cameras

10 at the HSCA hearings."

(
11 This is on page five, at the bottom of the third paragrap
12 MR. LEE: Excuse me. I'm afraid on this copy

13 there is a strip where there's something missing. I don't

14
know why.
15 Oh, here's the section you're talking about.
16 BY.ME. RUBIN:

17 Q "Hunt is going to be hard put to explain this memo. '

18 A Okay.
19 Q Did he say tl'at that sentence was based on

'I. 20 speculation and judgment, or that somebody at CIA told him

21 that Hunt is going to be on camera at the hearings?

22 A I'm searching my memory.

 . 52

MR. LEE: Mr. Tucker, if you ever don't remember,

2 it's completely legitimate to say, "I don't remember."

3 THE WITNESS: Well, as far as being precise, I could

4 simply say I have no precise memory of most of the contents.

5 To the best of my recollection, this seems to be stating'the

6 obvious.
7 TV cameras, if they are not permitted inside the

8 hearing room, are certainly going to be outside the hearing

9 room in a case like this. The contents of the foregoing

10 memo, dated 19.66, would make it stating the obvious, that

(
11 it's going to be difficult for Hunt to explain the memo before

12 · the TV cameras.
13 BY MR. RUBIN:

14 Q So he didn't say whether that was based on his

15 good sources at the CIA or just his own speculation?

16 A Well, the entire content of the story is based on

17 numerous sources described to me for the whole thing. So I

18 can't respond to each sentence. But it's a sentence we

19 discussion precisely on this, the whole content, but in

'--::., 20 reading the copy, I believe my reaction would be what i t is

21 now, that that is simply stating the obvious for the

22 convenience of the reader, that since this memo existed and

 53

it's going to come before the committee in public hearing

2 and there's going to be TV cameras outside, if not inside,

3 the committee room, that i t will be difficult for him to

4 explain.

5 Q All right. Let's go over to page six. Top of the

6 page:

7 "E. Howard Hunt will be implicated in the

8 conspiracy, and he will not dare to speak out --

9 the CIA will see to that."

10 A Same type of sources.

11 Q Sources at the CIA?

12 A My recollection is that most of the sources were

13 CIA sources and Senate committee or committee sources, to the

;.;
14 best of my recollection.

15 Q Then we are almost through with Mr. Hunt here.

16 A Well, now, on page

17 MR. LEE: Page seven is missing from your copy,

18 Mr. Tuck.er.
19 BY MR. RUBIN:
20 Q If I ask you anything on that page, I will show

21· i t to you.
22 A In answer to an earlier question, looking at
 54

page eight, where we have:

2 "The committee has scheduled its open sessions

3 on nebvork TV to begin after Congress adjourns

4 for the election campaigns."

5 So in the reference before to the TV cameras, that

6 refreshes me, on page eight.
7 All right.
Q

8 On page seven, we see the words:

9 "All the villains have been previously disgraced
10
in one way or another.''
11 Do you know who Mr. Marchetti was talking about by, "All
12
the villains?"
13 Okay. May I hold this for a moment?
A

14
Q Sure.
15 A I have to read what immediately preceded i t in that
16 case. He's referring in my own constructi'on of i t to the
17
people mentioned just above, understanding from the earlier
18
contents of the story that being an anti-communist could
19
also cast you as a villain in the minds of some parts of the
20
bureaucracy.
21
For instance, well, I'm referring to the fact
22
that the anti-Castro Cubans in this country are restrained by
 ~-

55

this Government, for instance,-,- not only restrained, they

2 have promis.ed never to launch an attack from these shores --

3 but the Internal Revenue goes after them to harass them, the

4 Government, for some reason or another, under Carter at least,

5 had a policy of trying to frustrate the anti-Castro Cubans.

6 So I believe the term villain is referring, of

7 course, to those who immediately precede that.

•..~
8 Q All right. Right after that word villain, there's

9 a sentence that was not -- or half a sentence -- that was not

10 included in the published version. I have parentheses in red

11 around it. Do you see that?

12 A That looks like what the trade calls an Out-C --

13 outside copy that was mixed. Typographical error. Because

14 if it had been deliberately struck it would have been
15 obliterated the way you see some examples here.
16 So I believe that's a typo that didn't look like
17
a typo, because what they have left is a complete sentence:
18 11
nThey all have 1
righ.t-wing 1 reputations.
19
So, while i t was left out, i t didn't appear to be
(-· '
" 20
something left out. I do not believe i t was left out.with any
21
particular intent.
22
Q The next sentence:
 . 56

"The fact that some may have had connections with

2 organized crime will prove to be on~y incidental

3 in the long run."

4 Did you ask Mr. Marchetti what his source for that state-

5 ment was, that some of these so-called people may have had

6 .connections with organized crime?

7 A I remember being fascinated by that fact, that that

_, 8 would be incidental. But I can't remember his responses

9 to those sources being any different from in other words,

10 I am sure he didn't say it was John Smith of this address

11 told me that. I'm sure he didn't identify by name the source.

12 Q Well, wasit somebody in the CIA?

13 A I believe this source had not a connection with

14 organized crime but was an expert, had some expert qualifica-

15 tions on the subject, perhaps within the FBI. I'm not sure.
16 Q This sentence appears on page seven:
17 "Those with provable ties to the CIA or FBI will
18 be presented as renegades who acted on their own
19 with the approval or knowledge of their superiors. n·
20 And the word "with.'' was crossed out and the word "without"
21 was inserted, which appears in the published version. Is that
22 your wording? Your change?
 . 57

A No. It doesn't look or feel like me. And even it's

2 not my style to simply cross out what I want to eliminate. I

3 obliterate it in "this. style. If it had been me, I would have

4 struck out the word "with" altogether, and obliterated it,

5 and written in "wi.thout."

6 Q And you don't know who did that?

7 A How does that change it? This is a guess. Do you

8 want a guess?

9 Q I won't hold you to it.

10 A Right. It's possible that Victor Marchetti called

I'
\.
Tl up and said, "Hey, there's a factual question we have to make

12 because this does change. the sentence, "without the approval

13 or knowledge.of their superiors," instead of "with the

14 A very important change.
approval or knowledge."
15 MR. LEE: Well, it's not my turn, but may I say
16 this? Is i t possible that Mr. Marchetti made that, and
17 that one earlier unidentifiable change·, before he ever sent i t
18
in?
19 THE WITNESS: It's possible. He could probably

20 answer the question. Because most people have a feel for what
J

21 they crossed out. Not penmanship but styles. He may have

22 made that change himself before he turned the copy in, with
 58

his own pen.

BYMR. RUBIN:
2 Q Okay.

3 A Another possibility would be that one of our staffer

4 not me, obviously -- would call up and say, "Hey, are

5 you saying that they are going to say they did i t with the

6 approval or knowledge of the superiors?" And he sa:Ld, "Oh, my

7 God, no. I meant to say without."

8 It could have been fixed that way .

.i

9 Q Okay. I guess that's i t for that.

10 Did you ever have a conference with any attorneys

11 representing Liberty Lobby or The Spotlight concerning this

12 article before i t was published?

13 A I don't believe I did.
14 Q Did you interview anybody mentioned in the article?

15 A No.

16 Q Reading that story, did you think that, but for the

17 fact that Marchetti authored it and you were relying on his

18 integrity and background and so forth, did you think that i t

19 was pretty sensationa·l?

i· ····;;w 20 A Well, the truth is often sensational. Yes, I did

21 regard it as a sensational story.

22 Q And did you regard i t as improbable or plausible?

 59

A I believed i t was plausible.

2 Q But was that strictly based on your belief in

3 Mr. Marchetti?

4 A That was a heavy percentage of it. He had done

5 work for us before. Re had strong credentials that we were

6 proud of and displayed on evaluation.

7 Certainly, if a stranger came into my office, he

8 may say, "I've been with. the New York Times all my life and

9 this is solid," -- no, i t would be a long time before we would

10 rush into print with something like that.
11
, Q Why?
12
A Because the New York Times has had some pretty
13 bad reporters in its day. They have blown it, too.
14
Q But I mean from the wording of the story, doesn't
15
i t make some pretty -- well, some new allegations in the whole
16
Kennedy assassination story?
17
A Yes, indeed, and we have considered several Kennedy
18
stories and rejected them when we found fatal flaws in them.
19
Would an example help, of stories we have rejected?
[.· : '.... 20
Q Well, if you could give us the name of the story.
21
A The story was never written. Before we got through
22
talking about it, we decided it was implausible.
 . 60

Q All right.

2 A And we rejected the story before the author even

3 bent over his typewriter.

4 Q All right. Since Mr. Marchetti wouldn't give you

5 the names of any of the sources, did that cause you any concern~

6 Did you question in your mind: could he have been faking this

7 whole thing?

8 A I never could imagine that he would be faking it.

·-·
9 It's possible for any of us to make a stupid mistake, which

10 I don't think he's made, but to intentionally sit down and

(
11 fabricate a story -- . We have· never "Jimmied" a story -- since

12 that's become a verb in our lives -- and I'm sure Mr.

13 Marchetti -- I have been to his home, we have talked. I

14 don't.recall specifically, we deal with several people who

15 have long service with the CIA.

16 Many times, for instance, I have sat in an office

17 with a man who will say, "I'm his source on this story. If
18 you ever disclose it, I will be fired 11
-- or i.n some cases a

19 threat of bodily harm or murder if you ever disclose it.

20 And I h.ave done that a number of times.
21 Q Because Mr. Marchetti brought this story in, did
22 you do anything differently from what you ordinarily do in
 61

verifying anything in the story or everything in the story?

2 A If a story had been written by a young reporter

3 who is still a trainee, perhaps, I probably would have wet-

4 nursed him a lot more, and, besides, he would not be involved

5 with sources that may be killed or fired. He would be

6 involved in something less weighty than that.

7 There's a difference in saying to a reporter, "I've

8 got to talk to that copy myself." There's no reason why

9 that copy is going to be fired for giving me the same kind

lO o.f thing he gave the reporter.

11 We are dealing with a heavier matter here. So

12 there's a difference in that regard.

13 I remember he was absolutely convinced i t was
~i
14 Victor Marchetti was. And we are talking
going to happy
15 about the time we went to the story, he's got to be vindicated
16 He was absolutely convinced, and he had
within a month.
17 done a lot of work for us before and expected to do a lot
18
of work for us in the future.
19
Q Did he?
20
A I would thi.nk so, because he's had story suggestion
21
since, and I don't knovr if we have used any of his stuff
22 He goes into writing books and then doesn't -- will
.recently.
 '•

. 62

maybe go a period where he doesn't work for us or anybody else,

2 and other times we will hear from him and he will propose

3 a story and describe the contents, how he substantiates i t

4 and the type of sources, and so forth.

5 Q Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 4 is a page from the

6 final report of the House Committee. Are you familiar with

7 what they found concerning what Marchetti predicted was going

8 to happen?
~·.':

9 A I'm searching my mind. At one time, a House

10
Committee came out and said there had to be more than one
11
assassin, but I may have that confused with something else.
12
I would have to refresh myself.
13 Q Sure. On the inside is the Committee report's
14 only mention of Howard Runt. On the right-hand page there.
15 A Is i t the middle of the page, do you recall?
16 Q No, the footnote.
17
MR. LEE: The second line, and then the footnote.
18
MR. RUBIN: Right.
19
MR ...LEE: Do you remember the question, Mr. Tucker?
L .... .. 20
BY MR. RUBIN:
21
Q I will ask another question. Does that report and
22
that footnote sort of nullify everything that is in that
 63

article?

2 MR. LEE: I'm sorry, I have to object to the form

3 of the question. I would advise you not to answer it in that

4 form. It's a very broad question, and it also asks.,_Mr.

5 Tucker's opinion, now, which is irrelevant to the issues in

6 this case.

7 THE WITNESS: This report came out after or

8 prior to our story?

9 BY.MR ... RUBIN:

10 Q About a year or two after.

11 A After?

12 Q Yes. Let me ask it this way. If this report had

13 come out before the story, would you have run the story?

14 MR. LEE: Again, I object to the form of the ques-

15 tion, and advise you not to answer the question. Because

16 it's not a part of the issue of the case, and the written

17 documents -- the article and the report -- speak for themselve

18 BY MR. RUBIN:

19 Q Do you know if the predictions by Mr. Marchetti

20 in the article ever came true?

21 A They did not. And if I could volunteer this,

22 counsel, I still believe they did not come true because of

 64

of the impact of The Spotlight story in exposing the intention

2 in advance. The Spotlight has tremendous impact on Capitol Hil!L.

3 An effect which I had contemplated prior to publishing the

4 story, as I mentioned earlier.

5 Q Yes. You are of the opinion that Mr. Hunt should

6 possibly thank you for that story?

7 A I would accept his gratitude with grace.

8 Well, I still admire Mr. Hunt.

9 Q Do you think that the contents of the article and

10 the substance of the statement made therein posed any kind of

11 danger to the reputation of Howard Hunt?

12 A He was portrayed there as a victim. Everything that

13 was the least bit critical, to my recollection, was what was

.::i
14 already on public record. His involvement with Watergate,

15 and so forth.

16 Anybody who wanted to know about these problems

17 did know about them.

18 Now we are saying he's being victimized because
19 they needed to pick a sacrificial lamb, and i t turned out that
,,
!. 20 he was the intended victim of it, prior to our rescue story.
21 Q Did you know, at the time he brought the story in,

22 of any connections that he might have had with Howard Hunt when
 . 65

they were both. in the CIA?

.'
2 A I don't recall discussing any specific connections

3 he had. And I don't recall asking him if their service in

4 the CIA at the same time in any way affected his story.

5 I may have, with all the discussions we had, that

6 may have come up. I don't recall.

7 Q Did his injunction by the court against revealing

8 any CIA information that he may have acquired during his

9 service, did that ever come up?

10 A I thought about it. But then accepted his premise

11 that he would reveal no information that actually -- and had

12 not that would. actually damage his own country, but, like

13 all of this, running throughout the whole gamut of bureaucracy

14 which I have dealt with for 25 years, a Pentegon secret is

15 more likely to be classified to avoid disclosing some

16 colonel's embarrassment over cost overruns than to protect

17 atomic secrets from the Soviet Union, or something that vitally

18 affects our national security.

19 In fact, it's been written, not just by me, but by

20 other publications, that far more than 50 percent of informa-

21 tion classified by the CIA or anybody else has nothing to do

22 with national security. It has something to do with ernbarrassin

 . 66

bumbling bureaucrats.

2 So I thought about all of those things in deciding

3 that the CIA doesn't have too much trouble getting a court

4 injunction.

5 Q Did you know anything, at the time you accepted

6 the manuscript -- or Mr. Carto accepted it -- that Howard Hunt

I-
7 and William Buckley had served in the CIA together?

8 A I hadn't thought about it. In fact, if I had known

9 about i t before, I had forgotten until I heard Mr. Carto
10 being questioned on the same subject today. It never entered
11
my mind.
12 Q Do you think, as you look back before this was

13 published, after you. got the manuscript, that you had er'to.ugh

14 time to check it out?

15 A If I didn't have enough time to satisfy myself

16 with it, we would not have. run with the story, because we would

17 rather err on the side of caution.

18 Q So you had enough time and opportunity to do so?
19
A Yes.
20 Q In your opinion?
21 A To satisfy Jl)yself, yes, sir.

22 Q And how long a period of time was that?

••
67

A It was a· matter of days, if not weeks. That

2 sounds vague, but it's as precise as I can be_

3 Q Sure_

4 Did you feel it was necessary, yourself, to pursue

5 any leads in the manuscript?. Or did you rely entirely on Mr.

6 Marchetti?

7 A Ultimately, I relied entirely on Mr. Marchetti_

8 MR- RUBIN: I have no further questions_

9 MR_ LEE: I have just one_

10 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANT:

11 BY MR_ LEE:

12 Q Earlier in your deposition, you used the word,

13 "worried" a couple of times_ You said, "We worried over the

14 story." "I worried with Mr_ Marchetti over it."

15 Could you explain your use of that word in that
16
context?
17 A We worry and torture every story to death, as a

18 matter of routine in our business·- In our business, we have

19 to worry and torture ourselves to death over every story_

20 Q By the time the article was published, did you have

21 any worries that it wasn''t true?

22 A No_
 . 68

Q Did you have any doubts at all as to the probable

2 truth of the story?

3 A No.

4 MR. LEE: I have no more questions.

5 [vlhereupon, at approximately 4:45 p.m., the taking

6 of the deposition was concluded.]

7 [I HAVE READ THE FOFEGOING 68 PAGES

OF THIS TFANSCRIPr OF MY DEPOSITION,
8 AND, AS ffiRFECTED IN MY HAt'lDWRITING
I·'
AND/OR ON THE A'ITACHED ERRATA SHEET,
9 THIS IS A TRUE AND CORRECT REFLECTI<J''
OF MY TESTIMON!.·]
10

11

12

13 JAMES P. TUCKER, JR.

14
******
15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
 69

CERTIFI.CATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

2 I, Patricia M_ Dowd, the officer before whom the

3 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the

4 witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition

5 was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

6 taken by me in Stenotype and thereafter reduced to typewriting

7 bi me; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony

8 given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related

,. 9 to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which

,-
10 this deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not a

11 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by th

12 parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in

13 the outcome of the action.

14

15

16
)-;
-7 /(.ff/.;',-,.<,_/
'
. 77 I
Notary Public in and for the
17 District of Columbia

18 My Commission expires
19
February 28, 19.. 85
., 20

21

22
~
;, .·'~-·-·..r'
'

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
MIAMI DIVISION
!

----------------------------------
E - HOWARD HUNT, JR.,

Plaintiff
~\LED BY----+-
vs CASE NO. 80-1121-CIV-JWK
'81 DEG 1 o: Pr! . ~
LIBERTY LOBBY, INC.,

Defendant

Suite 917
910 17th Street, N.W.
Washington, D. C.

Monday, December 7, 1981

Deposition of

BERNARD R. DeREMER,

a witness herein, called for examination by cou:r:is_el ;for tl;E? ...

Plaintiff, pursuant to notice, at the law of:E;i,~§'~:.S!t:C~lG.,_:il::Z"\1"""

Street, N. W., Washington, D. C . ., beginning at 12:05 p.m.,

before Patricia M. Dowd, a Notary Public in and for the

District of Columbia, when the parties were re.presented by the

following counsel:

FRIEDLJ, WOLFF & PASTORE, INC.

1735 EYE STREET, N.W. SU!TE #811 . /
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006
..f:J..~! .,_
PHONES: 331-1981
331-1982.
f!
 ASSOCIATES:
PHONES: 331-1981
HILlvfAR K. KLAWIANS, JR.
\VALENE E. SHIELDS 331-1982
~. RICHARD OBESTER
bRRIN £.CRESSEY
THOl\-IAS H. DORAN, JR.
GEORGE CORREIA FRIEDLI, WOLFF & PASTORE, INC. AUGUST WOLFF
ELEANOR S. GOOD!YfAN
JANE P. DAlvUANO
• 1735 Eye Street, N.\v., Suite 811 JOSEPH J. PASTORE
Washington, D.C. 20006 ROBERT L. FRIEDLI
HELEN M. LARSEN
JACK RUND
•MARGARET \VERNTZ
BARBARA T. GREENLEE VICTOR P. KLAMANS
SHERRYL. ROE Office JV!anager
lvfELINDA M. SCOTT
JANE \VATT
DANIEL R. DOTSON, JR.
CLAUDIA S, lvfUELLER I:ecember 11, 1981
LINDA J. NOES KE
LEANNE P. DOTSON
PA TRICIA !Yf. DO\VD
DOROTHY E. DeJARNETTE Re: E. Howard Htmt v. Liberb_/ Lobby
HELEN !YI. CURTIS
IvtARIL YN FELDMAN Case No. 80-1121
DEIDRE A. ED\VARDS
JEAN BRENNAN JACQUES Miami Division, Southern District
LOUANN DOYLE
ARLENE F. VAUGHN of Florida
LYNELL C. SHREVE
LINDA lvf. FAR!YtER Deposition of Bernard R. DeRemer
JUDITH R. GAGLIARDI Taken December 7, 1981
1 E. ALFRED KAUF!YfAN
DORIS !Yf. BURNS
MARCIA G. BLAU
ZEV V. FEDER

The Clerk of the Court

United States District Court
Southern District of Florida, Miami Division
Miami, Florida

Dear Sir:

With the consent of counsel for the Defendant, I am enclosing the original
transcript of the deposition of !''Ir. Bernard R. DeRemer, taken by Plaintiff's
collllSel on December 7, 1981 in Washington, D. C.

Signature on this deposition is not waived, but Defendant's counsel and

the witness have agreed to revieov oounsel' s oopy and make any oo=ections by
mail directly to the court, as soon as possible, in the interest of having the
original filed with the court irmlediately, since trial in this matter is, I .
tmderstand, set·for Monday, December 14, 19.81.

Very truly yours,

. /a:ZZc:.~ 7r , £~~'Cc:-77['
Patricia M. Lewd, RPR
Shorthand Reporter/Nota..ry Public

cc: Ellis Rubin, Esq.

Fleming Lee, Esq.
Bernard R. DeRemer
 2

··•··.
r ELLIS RUBIN LAW OFFICES, P.A.
'·~.t;;·.
BY: ELLIS RUBIN, ESQ.
2 265 Northea·st 26th Terrace
Miami, Florida 33137
3 On behalf of the Plaintiff

4 FLEHING LEE, ESQ.

General Counsel
5 Liberty Lobby
300 Independence Avenue, S.E.
6 Washington, D. C. 20003
On behalf of the Defendant
7

9 C 0 N T E N T S
EX AM IN AT I 0 N BY
10 WITNESS MR. RUBIN MR. LEE

11 BERNARD R. DeREMER 3 . - .· -·· .

-···-····--
12

13 EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFIC"AT'l;.QR ':'S

14 Plaintiff's Deposition
Exhibit No. l 14
15
" 2 16
16

17

18

19

20

21

22
 . 3

....... [Thereupon,

2 BERNARD R. DeREMER,

3 a witness herein, was called for examination by counsel for

4 the Plaintiff, and, having been first duly sworn by the Notary,

5 was examined and testified as follows:

6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF

7 BY MR. RUBIN:

8 Q Mr. DeRemer, you are the secretary -- i t it?

9 A Executive Secretary.

10 Q Of Liberty Lobby?

A Yes.

12 Q What is Liberty Lobby?

13 A A patriotic,political action organization. It

14 publishes The Spotlight, a weekly newspaper. It lobbies on
15 Capitol Hill for good measures and against bad ones.

16 Q Is it a non-profit corporation?
17
A Yes.
18
Q Organized and existing under the laws of --
19
A Of the District of Columbia.
20
Q How long has i t been in existence?
21
A It was founded in 1~55. It did not, however, move
22 to Washington until about 19.60, and I think the actual
 4

......
incorporation was about 19.62 ori '63.
\.:i:.ii"?
2 Q How founded it?

3 A Mr. Carta ·was a founder.

4 Q Carta?

5 A YES.

6 Q And do you know"what his purpose was in establishing

7 Liberty Lobby?

8 A A pressure group for patriotism. He felt there was

9 a need not being met by other organizations.

10 Q Now, you have filed an affidavit in this cause

ll when the case was first filed, giving some f.igures of .. your.
12 subscription, or circulation, I guess it-is. c·.::·:~~··:··~·.

13
A Yes . •
14 Do you know what the present' circulation is?·· - ..........
Q

15
A I'm sorry, I don't have the ~ost exact figure.
16
I know it's approximately 300,000, but I' don't have i t exactly.
17 MR. LEE: Re asked for circulation.· I'm not sure
18
it's the same as subscriptlon.
19
MR. RUBIN: Circulation is about three times the
20
subscription, isn't that true, usually?
21
MR. LEE: So the figure you quoted, was that paid
22 subscriptions?
 . 5

,...
A Well, the only thing I remember is that, in our

2 statements, it's around 300,000, the circulation figure,

3 including paid and unpaid. About, as I said, it's -- I haven't

4 seen a report for a little while, so I don't know what the

5 very latest figure is, but just in that neighborhood.

6 Q Do you know what the c'ircuJ:ation is in the State or

7 Florida?
.J 8 A No, I'm sorry, I don't.

9 Q Would the latest figures be the ones that you had

10
in your affidavit of June 10, 1980, which I show you a copy of?
!
11 A Again, I have to say I don't know what has happened
12 in the year and a half, nearly, since June, 19.80, that there

.,, 13 could be change~ and probably have been changes.

14
Q Well, could you give your attorney those figures,
15
and he will transmit them to us?
16
A Yes, surely, we can get the figures, yes.
17
MR. LEE: Sure.
18
BY MR. RUBIN:
19
Q Do you know what the total income is for Liberty
20
Lobby this year?
21
A I'm sorry, I do not know. As far as this year, our
22
fis·cal year is the calendar year, so, of course, our auditors
 . 6

,..-···
will not be starting unt{l sometime after January l, and i t
8 'i~!· ..::·

2 always, in iny recollection, has: taken months before we get

3 even preliminary figures.

4 Q Well, can you tell me the figures for l980?

5 A Not without referring to some documents. I'm sorry,

6 I don't have them.

7 Q Would you give us the years l978, l9. 7 9 ' and l980, an
" 8 'Bl, when you get it?

9 A Yes.

10 Q All right. And if you will give it to Mr. Lee, I'm

ll sure he will· send i t to us as part of this di.'?COVery

12 deposition.

13 A All right.

14 Q What about income from the 'radio broadcast? ···-'.!'his;..~ .. -

15 is Liberty Lobby.

16 A I'm even less familiar with that, because it's not

17 an area in which I work.·
18 Q And Liberty Lobby has no assets in the State of
19 Florida that you know of?
20 A Not that I know of.
21 Q Could i t have acquired any since June lO, l980?

22 A It would be possible.
 7

Q But you would know about it, wouldn't-you?

,;'.j ---:.:::11
2 A No, not necessarily.

3 Q Who would?

4 A Well, of course, the Treasurer would have knowledge

5 of all financial affairs.

6 Q Who is the Treasurer?

7 A Mr. Carta.
,~!
j 8 Q All right . ._ Concerning this lawsuit that we are

9 here for today, Hunt versus Liberty Lobby, Miami Division of

10 the U. S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida,

11
Case No. 80-ll2l.
12 You signed the cover sheet for Answers to

,"l
13 Interrogatories. and I hand you a copy of that. Is that your

14
signature?
15 A Yes, i t is.

16 Q And are you the one who prepared the Answers, then,

17 to those Interrogatories?

18 A I did not personally prepare them. May I ask

19 Fleming?

' 20 Q Sure. Perhaps your attorney prepared them for you?

21 MR. LEE: No, I did not prepare the Answers. I

22 have now looked at the document and I will give it back to

r .

Mr. DeRemer.

2 BY MR. RUBIN:

3 Q Can I ask you, Mr. DeRemer, who prepared those

4 Answers?
5 A I'm sorry, I cannot state that at the moment,

6 _because I do not know.

7 MR. LEE: Since I made a statement on the record,
8 I might as well add to clarify it, that I did not prepare
9 the Answers, but I organized the investigations and by various
10 Liberty Lobby staff members to produce the information which
11
is in the Answers, -·. : . ...
12 It was a cooperative effort~ I couldn' t eve_n_ t_EOµ .-.

13 you, myself, th~ names of the people w)lo wers _i,nvo_~,ce_(\., ,.

~' -·- . -
14 BY MR- RUBIN:

15 All right.,. Mr. DeRemer, do you stand responsible

16 for these Answers because you signed it?

17 A Yes.

18 Q All right. Fine. Do you know anything about this

19 case?

20 A Very, very little.

21 Q All right. Do you know anything about Victor

22 Marchetti being a free lance contributor to The Spotlight?

r
·'
. 9

A I know that he's a free lance contributor to The

2 Spotlight and that is the sum total of my knowledge in that

3 area.

4 Q And he's been paid for various articles that he has

5 submitted which were published, is that right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q In response to one of the interrogatories, i t says

'i 8 that this article in The Spotlight that we are talking about,

9 which was in the August l4, l9.78 edition or issue, that the

10 article was edited in some sense by Willis A. Carta, the

11 Treasurer, and by James p: Tucker, the Managing Editor of The

12 Spotlight. I.s that basically correct?

13 Is tQat your knowledge of who edited the article?

14 A I do not have firsthand knowledge of that,. but I

15 w-uld assume it to be correct, based on our normal operating

16 procedure.
.17 Q Did you know anything of the background of Mr .

18 Marchetti before he submitted this article of August l4, l978?

19 A No.

20 Q As Executive Secretary· of Liberty Lobby, just what

21 are your duties?

22 A I handle a great deal of publications. My work

,-
10

in The Spotlight is proofreading most of the paper and primary

·~ \i.);.;v·

2 responsibility for certain areas of i t -- Dr. Larson's column,

3 which appears weekly, the radio page, which appears weekly.

4 r am primarily responsible for those areas_

5 In addition, I handle things pertaining to trusts,
- -
6 etc., either articles or ads or certain other Dr. Larson's

7 publications. I am the one who edits mater-ial from Dr. Larson

,,
1
8 and I also handle things to do with the selling of the trust

9 manual and the IRS manual. The editorial coordination of the

10 books, and the handling of orders and records, and so on.

11 Q Do you have anything to do with insurance?

12 No.
A .- .,, .
13 Q Liab.ility insuiance? ·-~'
'

14 A No. i-l

15 Q Does The Spotlight, or does Liberty Lobby, have

16 liability insurance?

17 A I assume so, but I could not give you a definite

18 answer on that.

19 Q '/Jho would know that, Hr. Carto?

\ .. 20 A Yes.

21 Q Okay. We' 11 ask him, then.

22 You say that you may have proofread this article

 11

that we are talking about?

21. 'i;..f,•;;i
'
2 A Yes.

3 Q Did you make any changes?

4 A I would not have made any substantive changes at

5 all. All I would have done would have been to look for

6 typographical errors, punctuation, spelling, or .things of that

7 type. But I cannot recall that article in particular, but

8 that is normal procedure.

9 Q Have you read the article recently?

10 Not recently, no.

A
11 What did you think of i t when you first read it?
Q

12 A I'm sorry, I can rt remember.

13
Q Your. own personal opinion of what you thought of
14
the article?
15 I just can't remember i t now.
A

16 Q Why don't you read it now, and give me your

17 opinion now of what you think of that article.

18 MR. LEE: I would object to that question, by the

19
way.
20 THE WITNESS: I would rather not.

21 MR. LEE: I would advise the witness not to answer.

22 r think it's completely irrelevant what Mr. DeRemer thinks of

 r

12

it now. I would think it woul'd waste your. time ·for him to

2 read the article.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would prefer not to.

4 MR. LEE: Unless you could explain the relevance

5 of the question.

6 MR. RUBIN: No, we'll withdraw the question if it

7 is going to upset him. I don't want to upset _.him.

.,
~ .i

! 8 MR. LEE.: He's not upset. I am simply advising

9 him not to give a completely superfluous answer.

10 BY MR. RUBIN:

11 Q \\Tell, he said he would rather not. Is that r;igh_t_?

12 Yes.
A ;: es.

.;::
13 Q OkaX;. -.
14 MR. DeRemer, who drafted thi's affidavit for y:au ""''~"''

15 to sign? And I tender to you the affidavit that is dated

16 November -- what? -- 9. or 10.?

17
A November 9..
18 Is that your signature on that
Q November 9, 19..81.
19
affidavit?
20 I made a few
A Yes. Brent Whitmore drafted it.
21 changes in it. I can't remember just whi·ch. ones·, but before
22 i t was done in final form, so it's definitely my work.
,.
l3

Q Who is Brent ~mi tmore?

.. ;r,v•·

2 A ·He's Flemi1:lg Lee's ass·istant.

3 Q And when was this done?

4 A It was signed on that date. So I assume i t was

5 done the day before, probably. But that was the date i t was

6 actually signed.

7 Q Are you familiar with any of the co.rrespondence

8 that was exchanged between Mr. Lee and myself over this

9 article?

10 A No, I'm not.

11 Q And I hand you that correspondence. Did you ever

12 see any of it? w·ere you ever questioned about it?

13 A
-
I don't re~ember seeing it.
'
Well, I do see my

14 initials on here, so I typed this letter in final form.

15 Q Which letter is that? What's the date of that?

16 A September 20, 19.78. However, that is one of many

17 thousands of letters that I have also typed.

18 Q Who dictated that letter?
19 Fleming either dictated or sunmitted a draft,
A

20 probably. Probably a draft.

21 Q I don't mind if you confer with him to refr;esh

22 your memory.
 . 14

'
'
•

A Since it's Fleming's. letter, and so I'm sure that

I

2 he prepared it, and I assume by means of a rough draft which I

3 then typed in final form. I do not, .however -- .

4 MR. LEE: Just to clarify, I never dictate. I would

5 have -- I shouldn't say never, but I almost never dictate --

6 so I probably would have typed up-a draft of my letter and

7 given ·it to Mr. DeRemer to type in mailable form.

8 THE WITNESS: Also, at that time, Fleming did not

9 have an assistant, and he does have an assistant now, who

10 does a lot of that typing.

11 B)'. MR. RUBIN:

12 Q All right. As long as we have alluded to this,

13 this is all of the correspondence between Mr. Lee and myself

;~
.,
14 prior to the filing of this action. Can we mark this and offer

15 i t as an exhibit, a collective exhibit, at this time?

16 IWhereupon, the documents referred to,

were marked Plaintiff's Deposition
17 Exhibit No. 1, for identification.]

18 BY MR. RUBIN:

19 Q Rad you ever heard of Howard Hunt before_ this

20 article was published?

·- ..
21 A ,Yes, I had heard of him just about the same way as

22 Victor Marchetti, a name that appeared in the news, and I have

 , . l5
. -.·_ .. ;: -·· .
:J

I
I no other knowledge whatever of him, or the circumstances
I

~ '2 in this case.

3 Q Before Mr. Marchetti submitted his article and i t

4 was published, had you ever heard anywhere, from any source, th t

5 Mr. Kunt·was somehow involved in the conspiracy to kill

6 President John F .· ·Kennedy? ·

7 A Not that I. can recall now. However, there has

j. 8 heen so much said and so J[lanybooks written and so many TV

I.,
, 9 programs, that I just could<not say categorically, one way or
1·
10 But nothing that I. can definitely recall.
the other.
11 Are you in·charge of T!la:il-outs?
Q

12 Not in charge, but I do participate. in some of

A

13
them.
._,
14 Q I.'m going to hand. you a .mail.,-out that was received

15 hy Mr. Kunt recently, from Liberty Lobby, and I'm going to ask

16 you if you are familiar with. that~ I have a note in there

17 that I opened the envelop on such and such. a date, and we will

18'
Reep that in there.
19 A I. am familiar wi.th thi:.s, · yes. ·I did not personally

20 prepare any of this, but I. am familiar with all of tlie

21 contents.

22 About hoW;,many of those are mailed out?

 ·16 .. :·=>
'. • - i:;_, -

. ,_
:~:
<.

l A I'm sorry, I cannot answer that. Because I do not

-. .. '_,.
i
2 h~ndle ·· it.

..3. Q .Who wouldi ·

4 A Vince Ryan handles mail promotion, and he would

5 be in a position to answer questions like that.

I 6 MR., RUBIN::: Can we mark that-as Exhibit 2, please?
'
7 [Whereupon, the document referred to
was marked Plaintiff's Deposition
. 8 Exhibi:t No. 2, for identification.]

9 ~· . BUB.IN:.· Do you want to see this?

10 MR. LEE: Yes, I have never seen i t before.

l·l MR .. RUBIN: This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 2.

12 MR. LEE: I don't see any evidence of the addressee

13 on there . I. wondered .where .that would be.

14
. ·-- .. '." ·,
- ··-
MR. RUBIN: It's a card, isn't it?

15 THE. WITNESS: There isn't anything. Normally --

16 MR. RUBIN: Yes,-there i t is. It's inside that

17 blue folder.

18 THE WI.TNESS: Oh., yes.

19 MR. RUBIN: Let me ask him something about this

20
·- ..
code here.

21 BY MR. RUBIN:

22 Q From the packet, this is the address card. Can you

 • 17

•'".
tell me what those numerals and.letters mean above the name?

2 A No. I'm sorry, I can't, except that that ''sort''

3 I think is something that we put on for the benefit of the

4 Postal Service whoever ran the labels put on for the benefit

5 of the Postal Service, but I'm sorry, I do not know, no, sir.

6 Q Who would know that?

7 A Again, Vince Ryan,. who hand.les the computer

8 operations.

9 Q Okay.

10 As Executive Secretary of Liberty Lobby, do you

11 ·know what the net worth of Liberty Lobby is, at this moment?
12 I have h.eard figures, of course, and I see
A

13 financial statements when they come in, but I do not try to

14 memorize them, and I'm sorry, I wouldn't want to hazard a figur
15 because it would not be anything accurate at all.
16 I think that's about all. I have
MR .. RUBIN:
17
no further questions.
18
MR. LEE: I have no questions.
19
lv·Jhereupon, at 12.:25 p.m., the taking of the
'~j
20
deposition was concluded._]
21

22
 lS
' , .:,

,, . [I HAVE READ THE FOREGOING l 7 PAGES

' OF THCIS TRANSCRIPT OF MY DEPOSITION,
2 AND, AS CORRECTED IN MY HANDWRITING
AND ON THE AT.TACHED ERRATA SHEET,
3 THIS IS A TRUE AND ACCURATE REFLECTION
OF HY TESTIMONY - ]
4

6 BERNARD R- DeREHER

7 ****
8 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

9 I, Patricia M_ Dowd, the officer before whom the

10 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the

11 witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition

12 was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

13 taken by me in Stenotype arid thereafter reduced to typewriting

:j
14 by me; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony

15 given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related

16 to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which

17 this deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not a relati e

18 or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties

19 hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome

20 of the action-
21

22 Notary Public in and for th.e

My Commission expires District of Columbia

February 28, l985

 ii
' SOUTHJ:fa"\J DIST!UCT OF FLORIDA
i'lil'~'lI DIVISION

II E. HOWARD HUNT' JR. '

vs

LIBERTY LOBBY, INC.,

Plai11tifi~

CASE NO. 80-1121-ClV-JViK

r"ILt:O SY ___ _
+
Defendant

Suite 917
910 17th Street, ~l.W.
Washington, D. C.

Monday, December 7, 1981

Deposition of

!! WILLIS A. CAR?O,

a witness herein, called for examination by counsel for the

Plaintiff, pursuant to notice, at the law offices at 917 17th

Street, N.N., Washington, D. C., beginning at 12:25 p.m.,

before Patricia H. Dowd, a Notary Public in and for the

District of Columbia, when the parties were represented bv

the following counsel:

I
i -I
FRIEDLJ, VVOLFF 2:: ?ASTORE, INC.
1735 EYE STREET, N.\.V. SUJTE #811
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006 -:" -i" I
PhONi'.'.5: 33·-:95;

II
331-1982
.1i. \
II
·-~

llELLIS RUBIN LAW OFFICES, p .A.

BY: ELLIS RUBIN, ESQ.
2 11265 Northeast 26th Terrace
Miami, Florida 33137
3 On behalf of the Plaintiff

4
1·I1FLEMING LEE, ESQ.
·J·General Counsel
5 l JOO
Liberty Lobby
I~depe~denc? ~~enue. S.E.
6 ~Washington, D. C. 20003
II On behalf of the Defendant
7

9
II
10 C 0 N T E N T S
E X A M I N A T I 0 N B Y
~ 1 MR. RUBIN r.rn. LEE
12 !!
11\HLLIS A. CAR TO 3

13
II
14 1[EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION
11
15 "
':Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit
No. 3 19
16
'
No. 4 19
17 I I
18
I I
19
I I
20
II
21
II
11
i

II
II
··~

I'
i [Thereupon,

2 Ii WILLIS A. CARTO,

3 a witness herein, was called for examination by counsel for

the Plaintiff, and, having been first duly sworn by the Notary,

5 r..1vas examined and testified as follows:

II
6 EXAl'1INATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF:

7 II BY MR. RUBIN:

8 Q Your name and address for the record, please?

9 A Hillis A. Carto, 132 Third Street, Southeast,

11
10 Washington.

11 Q Are you the founder of Liberty Lobby?

12 A Yes, with others.

13 Q What others?

14 A Maverne Kaub K-A-U-B. Henry Trevor T-R-E-V-0-Ri.

15 number of other people I knew back in the early fifties --

16 !!lid-fifties.
17 Q It was founded where and in what year?

18 A 1955.

19 Q What was the purpose?

20 A The purpose was to establish a pressure group for

II
21
II patriotism, to counter balance the special interest pressure
22 groups then existing.

II

II
II
 5

MR. RUBIN: What the nature of the suit with

2 I Anderson and the second one?

'
3 MR. LEE: The Anderson one is a suit for libel by

4 ·1 Anderson in The Investigator Magazine, which is now defunct.

5 The other lawsuit is actually just a contract suit

I
6 having to do with a dispute with the parties over their

7 handling of a deal by Liberty Lobby to purchase a building

8 which didn't go through. I

9 MR. RUBIN: All right. I

I
10 MR. LEE: Let me just think a minute, off the record.· '

11 [Discussion off the record.]

12 MR. LEE: There may be more. Offhand, I can't

13 think of any.

14 MR. RUBIN: If there are, will you advise us?

15 MR. LEE: Yes, I will be glad to. I don't want to

16 mislead you.

17 THE WITNESS: Those are the only ones in actual

18 litigation stage.
19 MR. LEE: Yes, I think that's all there are.

20 BY MR. RUBIN:
II
21 Q Let's get to Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2, which is a
11
22 mailout. Do you know anything about this, Mr. Carto?

II
 i
A About what?
i
2 I! Q About the mailout, the contents of it?

1 : ~~-ren't s~en it.

4 Q L!landlng documenc to wi i::ness. J

I'
5 1/
A Well, this appears to be a promotional mailing for

6 , subscriptions to 'The Spo10light.

1

7 i Q Yes.

8 A Mailed by Liberty Lobby.

i Q Do you know who prepared the wording?

11
iO A Yes, the wording was [)re[)ared by -- the letter was

written by a gentleman by the name of -- I'm sorry, I can't

I
12 ,: think of the first name. The last name is Rosenberg.

13 II Q Is he an employee of Liberty Lobby?

14 A No, he is not.

15 " Q A public relations fiJ::m?

16 Yes. Advertising, public relations, this type of

17 II work.A
18
i Q What is the name of your P.R. firm?

19 li A I beg your pardon?

20 Q Vlhat is the name of your P.R. firm?

21 A Of my P.R. firm?
_;;. __ ,
LlDer~y ~ouuy s ~.R. ..:.... -- ....

11

ti
 A You mean M.r. Rosenberg's P.R. firm?
II
2 11
Q Yes.

\?ell, I th.inlc he \va.s jt1st operating i...1ncl_9r h.is 01.·.:r.

4 I name. I think he's since formed a company, but I don't know

5 I the name of the company.

6 Do you know anything about these initials and numbers,

Ii Q
ii
7 · above the name of Mr. Hunt?
I No.
8 L A

9 Q On the address tag?

II
10 A 1'1o.

11 (] Okay. Have you seen the exchange of correspondence,

12 Ii which is Exhibit No. l in this case, between Mr. Lee and myself?:

13 You would have to refresh my memory.

I\ A
14 MR. LEE: Why don't you pass it over and let him
I:
15 1!
: have a look through it.
.,
!1
16 MR. RUBIN: Sure. [Handing documents to witness.]

17 THE HITNESS: Yes.

18 BY MR. RUBIN:
19 n /'I.re you the person who sugqesteC. the interview with

20 Hunt in response to his letter asking for a retraction?

21 Well, I don't know. ~~Jhen your letter came in, IYlr.

A

I! Rubin, needless to say, J\·Ir. Lee and I arid t'lr. TucJcer discussed
I

1!

II
II
' '

and how to handle this rather unexpected development, and

2 /!who exactly suggested this out of the three of us, I'm not

3 prepared to sa•1, 3t this time.

4 Q All right. But it represents your thinking?

!I
5
II A Absolutely.

6 Q All right. Who decided not to inform Mr. llunt of

7 article before it was published?
,,
8 i: A I didn't understand that there was any obligation

9 II on anyone to so inform Hr. Hunt. in The Spotlight

I
iO every week of dozens of individuals, and we don't inform them !'

Ii as a matter of any -- any more than any other groups would,

12 l unless
1
there's a matter of information that we have to get, in

13 which case, needless to say, we inform them or ask -- or contact I

I
14 to ask questions.
II them
15 In this case neither seemed to be necessary.
,,[i 1

16 ii O Looking at the manuscript which Mr. Lee has provided,

17 II when 1~as the first time you saw that? I

18 A I don't remember.
I
19 HR. LEE: Excuse me. Haybe we should mention that

20 II this is the manuscript .. of the article by Victor Marchetti which

21 II was published August 14, 1978 in The Spotlight.

i
~I

II
 BY MR- RUBIN:
11

Q You don't remember? \'/ell, how long before August 1'1

2 Ii I

4 A l don't Know.

5 Q Who would know that?

6 A \·/ell, maybe Mr. Tucker would.

7 II Q Who was the manuscriot submitted to by Mr. Marchetti?!

8 A Hell, I presume to Mr. Tucker_ Well, he brought

9 it in or mailed it or had it delivered, I don't kn0\·1.

II I
10 Q I take it that Mr. Marchetti had submitted articles to

:; 'I1:-ie Spotligi1t before AL10ust of 1973?

12 A That's correct_

13 Q And he had been paid for those?

14 ' A Yes, sir.

15 II And there were no complaints made by anybody about

11
16 the contents of those articles?

17 l'. None that I know of_ \'le had no reason, on our part,

18 to be apprehensive or to feel in any way that the articles

19 were not worth ,.,hat we were payincr for them.

20 Q When you first read that manuscript, had you ever

II
21 II seen anything like i t before concerning E_ Howard Hunt?

l.Jn, yes_
II
II

II
II
 ,.
,,'
!I Q Would you mind telling me what it was that you saw
I.
2 II before?

J \!Jell, i'·lr. Rul)in, ~·1r. I-Iunt has been centioned

4 I extensively by every newspaper in the country, repeatedly, in

5 [regard to the Kennedy assassination.

6 Q Can you name some?

7 II A The Nev1 York: Times / the ~·,lashing-ton Post, the 1-Je-:v York!

8 Post, the Chicago Tribune, the Denver Post, the Los Angeles

9 If Times, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Fort ~:ort11 Telegram,

10 the I<ansas City Start, the Atlanta Constitution.

11 Q I will hand you some o~ these documencs and ask you

12 if these are some of the articles that you are referring to.

13 I think there's one from Time Magazine.

14 A Not ever reading the Miami Herald, I wouldn't have

15 II1: any knowledge of that.

11
16 The Washington Post article of November 5, 1978,
17 I "Role in Murder of JFK Denied By Hunt Again." I may have
18
seen that.
19
The other ones I can't say for sure.
20 All right. But is that the general tenor of what
II
21
IJ you are talking about, the type of articles that you sav1?

No.
!I

II
11
 I

I'
Q Well, what articles did you see?
i
2 i A Well

Q t~hat was the content, generally, o~ che articles?

'
4 A iv ell, there v1as a lot oz information that I picked
I
5
I up, having an interest in this, as I suppose anybody has who

6 tries to keep abreast of affairs. I remember that Mr. Hunt

7 II was accused of, as I recall, the murder of his wife, by a

8 gentleman by the name of -- in Chicago. I'm sure you know who

9 I rue an.

10 Q Skolnick?

iI Sherman Skolnick, right. Right. Are you suing

12 Mr. Skonick, Mr. Rubin?

13 Q I'm here to ask questions, Mr. Carto.

14 A Oh, okay. There were others. A lot of people

15 ' picked that up. There were various articles. I'm sure that

16 I read about it. There has been so much on this, so many

17 books, so on and so forth, it s impossible for me to

1

18 specifically ascribe sources at this time.

19 Q All right. Then vou would say that you are
20 II generally familiar with accusations?
21 I.'Jo, no. I would say that I had read in a number of
A
II
different publications -- righi: Vli::1g, le.it \ving, center \\1ing --

l
II
II
 '
11
and heard on radio call-in shows, and in general conversations

2 jt numerous times, I had heard references to Mr. Howard Hunt in

3 regard to the assassinaticn, in regard to the CIA, in rega~d

4 to the strange crash of the plane in Chicago with his wife and
1:
5
I all that cash, etc.

6 Q Did you ever read of Mr. Hunt's denials of any

7 II participation in the Kennedy assassination?

8 A Yes.

9 Q All right. Were you awar~ of the fact that the

II I
10 FBI had opened up its files on the Kennedy assassination sometime

i !
in 1977, that there were several journalists who went through
11
12 I! the files and who wrote articles on the Hunt situation with the

13 JFK investigation?
14 A. I suppose I was, but there had been so many things
15 i happen in regard to the aftermath of the assassination that I
:1
i6 . do not have a pointed recollection of it all.
17 1
As a matter of fact, \.Ile don't even run stories on
18
I assassination anymore in The Spotlight.
19 I Q Why not?
20
II A Well, for that reason. Because there are so many
21
accusations, persons being accused, and I believe that Castro
II
accused, the Soviet Unior1 is accused, President Johnson has
![was

i
II
'

been accused, the Mafia has been accused, Howard Hunt has been

2 I: accused.
So ~.·1e simply Clon 1 t rur1 ctrticles on that subject

l unless they are by a very reputable author and where we can

5
I bank on the facts.
6 But I wouldn't -- unless someone would come along

7
II with absolutely gilt-edged proof of who perpetrated that crime,

8 I doubt U: we would be interested in it.

9 Q In every edition of The Spotlight, and in this

II
10 printed material which is contained in the mailout, Liberty

11 Lobby has a guarantee. Reading your guarantee:

12 "The Spotlight will always correct any meaningful

II
13 error o.f fact."
,,
14 11 Do you recall that?
I,

15 i A That's absolutely correct.

16
i And do you know who composed that?
Q

17 11
A I did.
18 And is it true?
I Q

19 I A Of course. Everything in The Spotlight is true.

And, in fact, I think Affirmative Defense No. 2 in

20 Q
II
21 ~ this lawsuit, in your Answer, is tl1at the facts contained in

':~1~ r.:;.rtic le ar 2 true.

I,I

II
II
'

A If you say so_

2
!.'I Well, I will show you the Answers, so that we will be

3 or1 target here. All right? Answer to Amended Complaint_ Let

4 •
1
me see if I can find it.

5
i Yes. Second Affirmative Defense_ [Handing document I
6 witness_ J What does that say?

7 A "Fourteen~ The matter in the article complained of

11
8 : v1as true.

9 Q All right_ What was the general tenor of that

10
Ii:•article? Was it not that the CIA, durin9 the hearings of the

.House Special Committee on Assassinations, was going to reveal

i
12 some thin9s about Howard Hunt?

13 A Yes-
14 Q And the Kennedy Assassination?

15 A Yes.

16 And, in fact, it specified that they were going

Q

17 .to connect him with a conspiracy?

18
A Correct-
19 Q And that he was not going to be able to get out of
20 and that, because of his reputation and his veracity having

21
llbeen destroyed, he is going to be left to,
11 11
tv1ist in the \Vind,

!I I believe?

II
II
:

A I don't believe· that phrase -- I don't remember that f

2 ~phrase being used.

3 Q It's right there.

4 I MR. LEE: I would advise Mr. Carta to review the

I
5 Jexact wording if you are going to go into details, because

6 the question is sort of a combination of asking for an

7 interpretation and asking for what's in the article. The

8 article speaks for itself. If you want to know Mr. Carto's

9 II interpretation of it, he would be glad to give it to you.

10 MR. RUBIN: Well, he answered yes to some of the

11 ·things, so I don't want to be unfair, so why don't we let Mr.

12 lcarto read the article. There is the manuscript ~- or the

13 finished item probably.

BY MIL RUBIN:
14 Q And if you could, would you just tell me what the

15 I·general tenor and the general story content is in that

i6 article concerning E. Howard Hunt?

17
A ~.Vell, I can tell ;/OU tl:.2.t ~vi thout reading it again.
18
If there are specific questions regarding the article, I will
19
be happy to take up our tiwe in reading it again, but the
20
II general tenor of the article is that, according to a well-
21
II informed source, the CIA was going to throw up a decoy, you
22 \\might say, in regard to the F'..en11ed21 assassina·cion and ctdni;: a
i

II
i
 II limited participation in it, and that Howard Hunt was selected

2 !' to be the sacrificial lamb, so to speak.

3 Q All right. And the date of that article is

4 1~ August 14, 1978, is that correct?

:1

5 II A Correct.

6 Q When were the committee hearings over, do you know?

II
7 II A No, sir.

8 Q They 1,vere over, obviou.s ly r after August 14, 19 78?

9 A lvell, not necessarily, because The Spotlight is

II
10 printeC. and mailed ten days aheaC. of the dateline.

11 Q All right. \'/ell, I think that I can advise you

12 II that it was completed either sometime in 19 79 or even way up

13 \ to 19 80 _ You know, they had a long recess while they wrote

I
.I their report_ .l\.nc1 have you seen a copy of the final report?
d
;I
15 A No, sir.

16 Q Of the House Special Committee?

17 I have a copy of the front of the report, the title I

18 page, and the only page in the report that refers to E. Howard I
i
19
Hunt.

20 II Would you look at that, please? It's on that

21 And then after we look at that, I will have the court
II page.
.22
i reporter I!lark it.
i

I\
II
 II say about E. Howard Hunt and any possible involvement in the
2 !' Kennedy conspiracy?

3 Well, sometime after August, 19 80.

4 NR. LEE: You mean 1978?

5 Ii THE WITNESS: 1978, excuse me.

6 BY MR. RUBIN:
11

7 11 Q Well, what is it that you learned?

8 A That the Committee says that there was no involvement

9 J.vlr. Hunt with the assassination.

10 Q All right.

11 A Which is what we -- which certainly doesn't contra-

12 lj diet the story in The Spotlight.

13 Q It doesn't?

14 A No, sir.
,,
1: Did the Committee also say in what you just read
15 I
Q
j1
:!
16 that they coulf find no evidence of a secret, 19 66 CIA memo

17 which is mentioned in your story? I believe it's in the foot-

18 note.

19 A I believe that you are referring to a. 19 63 memo.

w !:·.1
I believe you said '66.

21 Q 1'70 1 it's a l966 memo in your stor~~t-

II :':.?. I.JEE: ~·fu\r a.on T t T,•le :!:"ead the footnote into the
22
II
i
i
II
 II record.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Shall I read it?

3 Page 101, Footnote 23:

4 I
'
1
During the course of the cor:unittee 1 s investigation,

5 II a rumor was circulating that the committee had

6 uncovered a memorandum in CIA files indicating

7 i Hunt was in Dallas on November 22, 1963. T11e rumor

8 was not founded on fact. In addition, Hunt gave

9 the committee a sworn deposition [179] in which

II
10 he denied the allegation, and the committee found

11 no evidence that contradicted Hunt's deposition."

12 I guess that means page 179.

Ii
13
1·
MR. RUBIN: Exhibit 179. All right. Can we marl:

14 '
1
that now? Mark that Exhibit No. 4. And I offer it.
I
I
15 11 [Whereupon, the document referred to
was marked Plaintiff's Deposition
16 Exhibit No. 4 for identification.]

17 MR. LEE:
18

19 I am going to consent to their being admitted into evidence

20
I
in the present form. I reserve objection because of the sketchy!

21
II content 'here, and the fact tbat -b.'1ey are copies, rather than originals.
21 [\olhereupon,the documents referred to
11 were marked Plaintiff's Deposi~ion
! Exhibit No. 3, for identification.]

II
II
 i

"
MR. RUBIN: Exhibit 3 is a collective exhibit of
Ii
2 i! newspaper articles dated 1975, 1977 and 1979.

3 BY rm. RUBIN:

4 1 Q f'lr - Carto, you say tl1a t t~1ere was notl1ing ii1 the
1

5
II,[ article that called for a correction by Liberty Lobby or The

6 Spotlight Magazine; based on the results of the investigation

7 by the House Corrunittee?

8 ii MR. LEE: Excuse me. You are paraphrasing an

1·
,I
9 11 earlier answer; is that v1hat you are doing?

10
1
MR. RUBIN: Yes.

11 LEE: I think we better abide by what's already

12 on the record in those answers, since Mr. Carta has already

13 answered that question. I don't want him to have to paraphrase

14 his own answers.

15 MR. RUBIN: All right. We'll ask him another

16 question.

17 BY M..'R.. B.UBIN:

18 Q I would like you to now refer to this manuscript,

19 si·r r and I am going to ask you some questions about it. Did

20
I you help edit and proofread this manuscript?

21 A Yes.
i Q Is your handt.vri ting or. any1Hhere?

I\
I

II
II

I
,.

A Well, Mr. Tucker, I presume.

Q Did he have to get approval for the wording from

3 i someone?

~ ' A No.

5 Q This was strictly on his own?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Did he show it to you before publication?

8 A I don't think so.

9 Q Do you know why he chose the wording that he used

10 instead of the wording that Marchetti had submitted?

11 A In general.

12 Q Would you tell us that explanation, please?

13 A Well, headlines are always written from two stand-

14 Number one, they have to fit a certain space available.I

1. points.
I I
15 I
That is basic.

16 Secondly is, within that limit, they must get

17 the interest of the reader and relate to the content of the

18 story.
19 Q Do these headlines relate to the content of the storY:?

Yes.
20
I A

21 Q Who decided on the placement of the headline on the

II
22 i front page?

11

II
ti
 A Hr. Tucker.

2 Q Did he have to get your approval to do that?

3 A 1'10.

4 Q Does he ha,1e to get your approval for anything in

5 connection with an edition of The Spotlight?

6 A Pardon?

7 Q Do you have any yeto on what goes in and where in

8 I' The Spotlight?

i
9 A Yes.

10
Ii Q And he has to check with you on certain things?
Ii A Well, I may not have been in town at that time, Hr.
12 If I was in town at that time, well, I would have
Rubin.
13 checked the pages.
14 Q Do you check the pages when you are in town?

15 A lVhen I am in tov1nr yes, sir~

16 Q Do you consider The Spotlight your creation?

17 A No. Well, let me say partially.

18 Q You wouldn't deny ·it?

19 A I'm not.
20 Q What are these numbers on the left-hand side of
II
21 page one of the manuscript? What do they mean?
II
22 A ~~Jell, ten dash eleven on thirty, -t.hat means te:i ?8:..nt

II

i
II
•

on eleven. It refers to the size of the type. One thirty,

j1

2 l! that means thirty picas is the length of the line. It's

3 approximately five inches.

Q 1'.11 right. Let's go on to page two. Is there

5 Ii anything on page two of the manuscript that is your handwriting?!

6 A I:~o, sir-
Ii
7 II Q Who decides on this subhead line toward the bottom
11
8 of the page, 11
A ne1i'1 coverup.

9 A That appears to be Mr. Tucker's writing.

Ii
10 Q Hhy didn't it appear in the published version? Or

11 did it?

12 A Quite likely because of space.

II
'
13 Q Was the headline, in your opinion, designed to

14 I mean the headline on

" attract attention to the article? I
IIiI I
15 the front page and on the top of pages four and five of the
II I
16 published article?

17 A Well, that is our general policy, Mr. Rubin, to I

18 simplify headlines as much as possible to make them -- to I
19 attract attention, and to garner interest in the story, itself. I
!
20 Q 1•7hen you bought this manuscript from Mr. Marchetti,
i
21 did you have in mind for it?
II what
2:: A I 1 m sorry, I don 1 t understand.
11

11

II
 II Q Was i t to be a feature article in your news magazine3

2 A It's a ne\:!spaper.

3 Q Your newspaper weekly newspaper?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Right.

6 A That was left, as far as I recall, to Mr. Tucker.

7 I don't know -- as you can see, the first story regards the

8 dollar crisis, which at that time was a very big story.

9 Really, what the lead article is, I suppose would

fl
10 be a matter of interpretation.
11
Q What is the first headline on the front page?
12 1: A "CIA to Nail Hunt For Kennedy Killing." However,

13 let me point out that what we refer to as the banner headline

14
:I is "Bankers Rigged Dollar Crisis to Sell Out U.S. Sovereignty,"
15 I
which is in larger type.
16
Q All right. By the way, did you get any response
17
from your readers to the Hunt article?
18
A I don't recall that we received any.
19
Q Hho would know that?
20
II A Well, Mr. Tucker or Mr. Marchetti, since any -- let
21
i me mention this -- that any letters which would be addressed
22
to Victor Marchetti in care of The Spotlight would have been
i
II
II
.j

forwarded to Mr. Marchetti unopened, so I would assume that any

2 Ii comment on the articles would go directly to him.

3 Ii,. Whether there was any letters printed in The Spotlight

.!
:1
4 ii later, as a result of the story, could be ascertained by an

5
II inspection of subsequent issues. I don't recall that there was .1
6 Q Is The Spotlight and Liberty Lobby responsible for

7 what is published in the weekly newspaper?

8 A Yes, sir_
)I
9 Q All right. Regardless of who writes it?

10 II1, A That's a legal interpretation I'm not qualified

I!!
11 to give.
12 Q All right. Let's get to page three of the

13 manuscript, and in the middle of the page is the printed wording,

14 "They' 11 Hang Hunt. " Who wrote that, do you know?

15 A Again, that -- no, I don't know. I can say that

16 looks like Mr. Tucker's writing. .

17
Q All right. Were you aware of that before the
'

I
_. h

18
article was published? I
19 A\'7are of v1hat, sir?
A

20 Q "They'll Hang Hunt," the wording?

I
21 A Before the article was published? Well, if I saw
II 1
22 the page, then I v1as certainly a\·: are of it. I don t:. recall if

11

11

II
 I proofed the page or not.

2 Q Well, your handwriting is on the first page.

I
3 A No, I mean, not at all. I meant the printed page.
I
1!
4 Q What about on the manuscript page? If your hand-
I
5 writing is on the first page, page one, wouldn't that indicate
.1

6 that you read this?

7 A Oh, yes, I read it. But it doesn't mean that the

:1
8 subheads were inserted, necessarily, before I read it. Althougl
9 normally they would be.
!
10 Q So you can't say either way?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q Getting to the next page. Do you know who inserted

13 the words, "May now admit," above the cross-out of the words,

14 "privately believe" in the second paragraph?

15 A No, but I would assume -- do I assume?

16 HR. LEE: I wouldn't assume.

17 BY HR. RUBIN:
18 If it's not him and it's not
Q We'll ask Hr. Tucker.
19
you, who could i t possibly be?
20 A Well, it could be the copy reader.
21 Q Copy reader can change wording?
22 A Copy reader does it all the time, yes, sir.

II
11
 \1 Q Change wording?

2 A Oh, yes.

"both agencies privately believe to "both

11
J Q I:' rorn

4 agencies may TI0'.-1 admit? 11

Well, let me point this out. Number one, at that

5 II A

6 time, I don't believe we had a man serving as a full time copy

7 reader, which we do now.

3 Secondly, whoever does read the copy, whether it's

9 II l1r. Tucker, DeRemer or me, or the copy reader or anyone, knows

10 very well our policy in regard to manuscript changes. And the

11 policy is that, in the case of a by-lined article or where

. . hi
12 the article is written by a person who is k nown on h is own rig ti,

13 either being an author or otherwise known to our readers and

14 i to the. press, the copy reader may not make any substantive

15 I
f1 changes whatsoever in the story, obviously.

16 But when an article is written by our own staff,

17 why then the copy reader, of course, has full authority to

18 make any changes, including substantive changes, changes in

19 meaning, changes in wording, and so on and so forth.

:
20
i Quite obviously, when we run the story of a prominent

21 II person, why, we can't change his words.

22 Q So who changed those words,
11
private believed 11 to

:1

i
II
"

may now admit?

11

i
11

A I woulc ~
1
say
2 I'

3 ! lR.1
LEE: I hate to interrupt, but let me emphasize

that if you are reduced to having to s;:ieculate, don';: sr:oeculate.

5 II State only what you know.

THE WITNESS: All right. I don't know. I can't

6

7 answer.

8
BY MR. RUBIN:

Q Is your handwriting on this page four at all?

9
II
10 A Yes.

11 Q \·/here?

cha~ge d
11

12 A Well, twice. I the i;vord 11

bums 11 to tramps. n

13 Q That's five lines from the bottom?

14 A Right. And secondly, I wrote in my handwriting

II the:ce, "Confirm this'.' exclamation point, underlined.
15
II
16 Q Why did you write that?

17 A That was because of the wording in the story, "Hunt

18 I immediately sued for millions of dollars in damages, claiming

19 I he could prove that he had been in Washington, D. C. that day

20 \\ on duty at the CIA."

21 Q Is that what you wanted confirmed?

_,?" II A 11 It turned_ out, ho\ve·ver, that this ,_,las not true, so

!I
II
II
.
.j·.'

"),',
.;u

I'
,!
'
-
he said that he had been on leave and doina household errands '

2 !ii1 including a shopping trip to a grocery story in Chinatown."

3 Q \"7hat did you want confirmed?

4 A Those facts.
'1
5
11
Q That you just read?

6 A Well, that he had sued for millions of dollars in

7 damages claiming he could prove that he had been in

I'1! Washington, D. C. that day.

8

,,ii
9 Q Did you confirm that?
II,1
10 A I didn't confirm it, no.

11 Q \vho did you order to confirm it?

12 A !Ir. Tucker.

13 Q Okay. And what did he report back to you?

14 A Well, he reported back, I'm sure, that it was true.

15 Q Did he say how he had confirmed it?

16 He may have. I don't recall. It was a number of

A

17 years ago.
18 Q Well, we'll ask him.

19 Why dia. you find it necessary to have somebody

20 confirm this fact and no other fact in the whole manuscript?

i
21 Was there some doubt in your mind as to the truth of that, or
i
22 the accuracy of it?

i
II
II
 iiI

I A \'Jell, I feel that it's prudent at all times to check[

2
Ii facts in 1·1hich there is any degree of unclearness -- of
'
3
I, unclari tv. In this case·' trying to reconstruct my thought
'
4 processes, which is rather difficult, I believe that I was
5 unaware of this suit and wanted to know more about it. And so
6 we got the information.
7 Q Mr. Tucker got it?
8
Ii
i A Mr. Tucker got it and cleared it.
I

9 Q On the bottom line, as part of the information

10
that you wanted confirmed, the original manuscript read, "It
11 turned out, however, that he was not." And that was changed
12 to, "It turned out, however, that this was not true."
13 Who made that change?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q You did not?
16
A No.

17 MR. LEE: Excuse me. I have to object to the form

18 of that question, because I believe that there is a reference

19 to Mr. carto's previous answer, and I don't believe that he

20 included the sentence you just read as a part of that material

II I

21 that he wanted confirmed. He read all those lines and I

2~
i believe we can tell when we read ~~e transcript, but I believe

I
II
II
II

I
 [Discussion off the record concerning another

2 i 1
witness who had just arrived.]

3 MR. LEE: This'can be on the record.

'
THE WITNESS: Mr. Rubin, you got me all the way
·1.
5 1 from California one time here for a deposition, and then you

6 It was quite an expense. spent a lot of time on

II canceled. I

7 this that was absolutely unnecessary because this is a

8 I'ii frivolous suit, as you well know, and I object to spending

I
9 any more time than I absolutely have to.
11
10 And I do not wish to relinquish my place for anybody:
i
11 else right now.
12 MR. RUBIN: Let the record reflect that the reason
13 I canceled the prior deposition was on the representation of
14
Miles McGrane, attorney for Liberty Lobby in Miami, Florida, I
15
that k-1r. Carte would not appear at the time scheduled and that
16 I should reschedule it, which I did, to accommodate Mr. Carto
17
who Mr. McGrane informed me was in California and could not
18
possibly come back for the originally-scheduled deposition.
19
And that is the truth as I know it.
20
11
MR. LEE: Let me just throw in my two cents worth,
21
which. is that I was told by Mr. McGrarie of Miami that the
11
22
deposition of ~·tr. Carta \•las cancelec1 because of a dispute 'i·lhich
1·
I

i
ii
-.

34

,,
:1
!

1, I took place in Miami between Mr. Rubin and Hr. McGrane' s firm

2 I! over discovery, and that Hr. Rubin had said that if he couldn't ,

3 have discovery of certain documents, it wasn't worth taking

4 t·1r. Carto's deposition.

5 II Now, I don't know the full facts. I wasn't there.

6 But I want to try to balance this out.

7 MR. RUBIN: I want to take one second to tell

8 I Mr. Kuzmuk that we can't take him right now.

9 i [Short recess.]
I,!
10 '1, BY MR. RUBIN:
I
11 Q The statement later on on that page, in the same

12 paragraph.:

13 "Hunt is going to be hard put to explain this

14 memo and other things before the TV cameras at

15 the HSCA hearings."

16 Do you know whether that also was based on fact?

17
A \·mat page is that?
I
13
Page five of the manuscript, the same paragraph.
19
A Well, I believe I would stand on my previous answer
20
I\ in regard to our reliance on Mr. 1-1archetti and his particular

21
expertise, his integrity, the standing he had, the authoritative[
I\
.21
nature of his knowledge in this field.
II

II
II
 35

Q And in response to the question, "was this based

2 \! on opinion or based on fact?

11
to the previous item -- you
I
3 I said it was based on fact. Now, what about this one?
I
4 I believe for the same reason that this

6 Q On the top of page six, the last sentence of the

II I
7 09ening paragraph:

8 "E. Howard Hunt will be implicated in the

9 conspiracy and he will not dare to speak out.

lO
I
The CIA will see to that."

11
II•
J, Was that statement based on Mr. Marchetti's opinion, or
I.
12
based on fact?
13 A You will have to speak to Mr. Marchetti about that.

14 Q And you did not know, at the time this was

l
15 published, is that right?

16 MR. LEE: I think that I had better object to tth e

17 form of that question, in that Mr. Carta was being asked 0

18 differentiate between statements written bv Mr Marchetti whic

19 were based on Mr. Harchetti's facts, and t~ose.which were' I

20 II based on Mr. Marchetti' s interpretation of the facts. And I
,,
21 really don't think that he can answer those questions,
II
22 especially years after the event.

I
It
II
 36

,,
Ii
MR. RUBIN: All right.
11
MP.. LEE: Adequately. Mr. Marchetti would have to,
2 Ii
1:
3 I' I think, discuss the difference between interpretation and
Ii
4 fact. And the distinction between facts and the interpretation

of the facts and predictions of future events based on facts is

5 Ii
6 so shadowy at times, that I don't believe it would be wise for
I
I

7 Mr. Carto to attempt to reconstruct those matters now.

11

8
·I' BY MR. RUBIN:

9 I Q Diel you ask Mr. Marchetti when he submitted this

10
I manuscript, "What do you base that statement on --'E. Howard
i
11 1! Hunt will be implicated in the conspiracy'?"
I
i
12 A Yes.

13 Q What did he tell you?

14 A His private, confidential sources in the CIA.

15 Q And did he tell you who those sources were?

16 A I'm not sure that he did, at that time. He did

17 later.

18 Q And who are those sources?

19 A I take a journalistic privilege on that question.

20 Q You refuse to. answer t::Oat question?

r
21 A Yes.

22
I Q All right. I am goin" to have to certify that.

II

II
ii
 37

Is this on advice of counsel?

2 MR. LEE: I concur in it. Mr. Carto believes, as

3 «le have discussed prior to coming here, that the publisher must

4 respect the wish of the author to preserve the confidentiality

I
5
! of his sources.

6 BY HR. RUBIN:
II
I!
7 I Q Did Mr. Marchetti tell you the names of all the
,.
'
)1'
'1
8 sources that he had for this article, either before or after

9
I
I
I the publication thereof?
I
I
10 A I don't know.
I
I'
11 Q But he did tell you some sources?
1l
!
12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And you refuse to divulge them to me now? If I

14 asked you what are the names of all of the sources that Mr.
15 Marchetti divulged to you, what would your answer be, so that
16 we don't have to. go through tha.t?
17 A Well, my answer would be, in all honesty, I don't
18
remember. I don't know. I made no notes at the time, and I
19
don't have that recollection.
20
i Q But you do have one, or you wouldn't have refused
21
to tell me.
22
A I have one what?

I
i
II
 38

Q Name of a source.

2 I! A Oh, yes.

3 Q Do you have any other names?

I
4 A You mean --?

5 11 Q Other than the one source that he told you.

Ii
6 A I have none that I can recollect, at this time.
I'
1l
7 Q Did he tell you the names of any sources before
I''
1'
8 publication of the article?

9 A I don't recall.

10 Q He would recall, would he not? And did he speak

11 about this to Mr. Tucker?

12 A I don't recall.

13 l'1R- LEE: Did he speak about what to Mr. Tucker?

14 MR. RUBIN: The name of the source from the CIA

15 based upon which this statement appears in the manuscript,

16 "E. Howard Hunt will be implicated in the conspiracy."

17 MR. LEE: Thank you.

18 BY MR. RUBIN:
19 Q Mr. Carto, was Mr. Hunt implicated in the conspiracy~

20 A No.
21 Q Did you print a correction or a retraction of that?
22 A No, because you failed to send us any, t1r _ Rubin.

i
 : _\
lJ

I
I

I
I
Q

A
VJe failed to send what?

Any correction to print_

'
;.
1!

3 Q It 1 s your opinion that it 1 s up to the person who

1:

4 was asking for the retraction to eraft it?

i
5 A You recall in the documents you have showed to me
\I
6 " a few minutes ago, that we invited Mr. Hunt to give a full
I
7 account of the whole thing. And in order to just not only
11

8 clear him, but because we thought that it would be interesting

9 for the readers. You failed completely to do this.

10 Q Did you invite him to give his side of the story

11 ,.'i before the article was published?

'
12 A No_

13 Q
Did you call him and ask him for any -- ask him to

14 confirm or cieny any of the sentences in the publication?

15 A
Well, Mr_ Rubin, what would Mr. Hunt know about a

16 plan in the CIA to involve him in the assassination?

17 Obviously, he would be the last person to know, right? If he

18 read it in The Spotlight and it didn't happen, why, then I

19 would say that he should send us a gratuity for exposing this

20 i conspiracy and getting him off the hook_

2i Mr. Hunt may be a free man today if it 1.vasn' t

22
i for The Spotlight and Mr. narche':c-::i and the story

II
II
II
 MR. RUBIN: Exhibit 3 is a collective e:xi~ibit of

2 i newspaper articles dated 1975, 1977 and 1979.

3 BY rm - RUBHl:

4 Q f'lr. Car to, you say tl1a t t:-iere \I/as noth.ing i11 the
ji
5 J article that called for a correction by Liberty Lobby or The

6 Spotlight Magazine; based on the results of the investigation

7 by the House Committee?

s ii MR. LEE: Excuse me. You are paraphrasing an

II
9 i earlier answer; is that what you are doing?
10 ;: MR. RUBIN: Yes.

11 MR. LEE: I think we better abide by what's already

12 on the record in those answers, since Mr. Carte has already

13 answered that question. I don't want him to have to paraphrase

14 his own answers_

15 MR. RUBIN: All right. \'-le' 11 ask him another

16 question.
17 BY MR. RUBIN:

18 Q I would like you to now refer to this manuscript,

19 sir, and I am going to ask you some questions about it. Did

20 / you help edit and proofread this manuscript?

21 A Yes.
II
22 Q Is your hand\vriting on

I
II
II
 A Yes.

2 Q Can you point that out, please, to us, on what

I'
3 page and what i t says?

-l A On page one there, at the top right-hand, i t says:

5 nr;i ve proper bio of author, 1AfAC."

6 Q All right. Let's stay on page one, and I will get

7 to other pages as we ask you questions.

8 'I A Okay.
I~
9 I' Q I notice that the:ce was a different heading on
[I the manuscript than appears in the newspaper itself. 1.
10 \•lo,uld you
!
i1
,,'' read the headline on the manuscript?
12 "The JFK Assassination: New Developments and
A
t
13 Another Cover-up.
11

I
14 Q Was that ever included in the published a:cticle?
I
15 A No.

16 Q What headlines do appear on the published article

17 on the front page, and then the inside pages, four and five?

18
A The front page: "CI.II. to Nail Hunt for Kennedy

19 That's page one.

Killing."
20 Pages four and five: "CIA to 'Admit' Hunt Involve-
I
21
II ment in Kennedy Slaying."
22 Q Who prepared those headlines?

l
II
'
40

run there.
,/
2 Q Are you telling me, sir, that if The Spotlight had
Ii
3
i not printed this article, that Howard Hunt would have been
,I

4 " exposed as being implicated in the Kennedy assassination

5 conspiracy?

6 A No, sir, I'm saying that this is what Mr. Victor

7 Marchetti says.

8 Q And are you responsible for what he says?

9 A No.

10 Q Is that what he told you at the time he submitted

I
11 I:! this article, that he was submitting i t so that Howard Hunt
12 would not be made a target of the CIA?

13 A No.
14 Q Is this just your interpretation of what the article

15 purports to do?
16 A No, it's my analysis of the sequence of events.

17 Obviously, according to Mr. Marchetti's very firm information

_J .
18

19
on which we questioned him at length after we received your

first letter, and he substantiated everything with a lot of

Ii
20 detail -- he believed then and he still believes that this
21
sort of a plan was afoot. And the fact that i t did not happen
22 is, in my opinion -- I would assume that this Hould be the
 I
Because the whole thing was laid out in
I reason for it.
,I
2 IiI' advance and the CIA didn't do it.
'
3 Ii Q Ehy did you question Mr. r•Iarchetti in great detail
j,
4 and make him produce substantial proof after the publication
I
5 instead of before?
.1
6 A Hell, as I believe I answered that question, Mr.

7 Rubin, Mr. 11archetti had written i:oreviously for The Spotlight.

8 I Q About Howard Hunt?

I
9
I A About the CIA. About the Eennedy assassination.·

10 I
II,, About a number of subjects.
11 I!
We have here, I think, four articles that were

12 written before this one. We had not received any critical

13 letters about it. \'le had had no angry phone calls. We had

14 had no occasion to believe from that standpoint that they were

15
incorrect.
16 r1r. Marchetti had wri b:en before for many different '
17 best selling books. I
magazines. He had written two books
18
He had written for The Nation Magazine. He had written for I
19
Penthouse Magazine -- certainly an establishment publication. I
20
He had written for other -- a number of other
i
21
II magazines. He had gone on speaking tours for the American
22 He had helped raise money
Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU.

II

i
II
 II

.i for the ACLU -

"'
2 He was a well-known expert in his field. He knew

3 he was, what, the assistant reseaich director of -- he had a

4 ,, very high position in the CIA. He knew all the top men of the

5 II CIA who were still alive. He had an expertise to be matched

6 by no one.
Ji
I.
7 I, When he offered these articles, why, we were happy !

8 "" to accept them, based on his reputation for integrity and

I!
9
il kno\'lledgeT and 1,ve felt that this gave authority to them. Ana.

10
i
!" this is why --.

11 Q Regardless of what they said? Regardless of what

12 they said, because of his integrity and his knowledge of the

II
13 CIA, you were happy to print what he gave you?
I
I
14 A Mr. Rubin, you know as well as I do that there is
I i
15 j: no taint of malice, there is no taint whatsoever of any possible
11
16 libelous motive in this thing. Libel isn't involved. We had

17 I no idea that this would be -- that this would be seized upon

18 as an excuse for a suit against us_

I
19
I And there was no thought, then or now, that this is

20 '
in the slightest way libelous to r1r_ Hunt_
11

21 Q Mr- Carto, supposing The Washington Post, on the

I\
22 morning of J!._ugust 14r 1978, ran a top l1eadline, "CIA To Nail

II

II
11
•'

)/ Carto For I<ennedy Killing." Would you think that that would

2 be derogatory to you in any way?

3 MR. LEE: I object to the form of the question,

, and I advise you not to answer a hypothetical question of

5
II that kind. Since such an event didn't occur.

6 BY !1R. RUBIN:

7 Q Getting back to page six of the manuscript, a

8 subhead line is printed in: "Another Agent to Dangle_"

9 Who wrote that, sir?
JO I don't know.
A

11 l\.nd why was it not published?

Q

12
A I don't know.
i
13 Page seven. T-e second paragraph starts: "Who
Q

14
!I else will be identified "
15 My copy doesn't have a page seven. May I see
]\.
!
I
16 ' yours?
17 I
H
Q Yes. [Handing document to witness.]

18 A What's your question, please?

19 Q The sentence:
20 "They all have been closely allied with the anti-
i
21
Castro Cubans, and 11
i
.!...!. That did not appear in the ;~~lished version. Do ~{OU

i
i
II
.

,,
I'

know why not?

Ii
A I>lo , sir.
2

3 Q Do you knO\'I who deleted· it?

.
'
A 1~0 I sir.

5 Q Did you?

6 A i'Jo r sir.
ll
,. Q Getting to page seven again, in the full paragrc.ph
7

the page 1 Si~{ lines

11 11
3 Oil frOffi the bottom r the \llOrd \</i th is

9 changed to "without_ " Do you know who changed that?

10
A No, sir. Are the red markings your markings?

11 Q Yes. They are my notes.

12 A I see. Okay.
11

13 Q On the last page of the manuscript, where i t says:

\\
14 "The committee plans to conclude its work by
lj
15 early October, just a month before the elections,"

:I Do you know when the committee did conclude its work?

16

17 i A No, sir.

18
I Q Was i t before October?

MR. LEE: He said he didn't know.

19
I
20 MR. RUBIN: l'-11 right. Very good.
rl
21 BY MR. RUBIN:

22
i Q Are t:iere an~' fabrica~:..ons contained in the
I
•i
·I

i
II
 ,,
II
JI published article of August 14, 1978 that you know of?

2 A No, sir.

3 ii Q Are tl1ere any products of £1lr. Marc11e tti 1 s in1agination,

\:
4 not based on fact, which are contained in the article of

5 of August 14, 1978?

6 A None that I know of.

7 Q Did you ask him these questions before publication?

8 A Certainly.

9 Q What else did you ask him, and when? Before

10 publication,of course.
11 1!
,I [Pause.]
I
I
12 Let me ask you in some detail. \'lhen did you talk

13 to Mr. Marchetti about the contents of this manuscript before

14
publication?
15 I don't know.
A

16 Was it several weeks before, or days?

Q

17
A I don't know.
18
(] Who would know that?
19
A \•Jell, Mr. Marchetti, I suppose, or maybe he talked
20 I don't know.
to Mr. Tucker first before he talked to me.
I\
21 Q Well, when you talked to him, were you curious
22
I
about the content?

II
II
II
;
•
-16

A Well, he, I'm sure -- I'm quite sure what happened

2 is that he telephoned or wrote -- in this case telephoned,

3 "
; I believe -- and proposed an article, this article, or
1·.,.'

4 perhaps he proposed more than one. I just don't recall. And

I'
d
5 described the article, and would have been questioned about
Ii
6 the article, and then would have either -- would have been
I,I
7 !I asked to go ahead and prepare the article after the fee had

8 Ii been agreed upon, and the deadline, and a length had been

9 ' established.
II
Ii
10 Q lmd then, once the manuscript was received, who
i
11
',,
would read it?
12
""i A Well, I believe I answered that question. It was
I'
13 I.If obviously read by me, because, as you can see, I made emendatior).s

14 I on it, and also, of course, Mr. Tucker.

15
I. And then it would have been read by a copy reader,
"
",.
16

17

18 Q When you first read it, did it surprise you? The

19 contents?

20 A Yes, I thought it was quite news worthy.

i
21 Q Had you ever read anything like that before?

22
II
A 1'1o.

i
Ii
II
,
•
I 47
lj

11

Q Did it raise any questions --

2 MR. LEE: I'm sorry, that question, I think, was

3 asked much earlier in the deposition, "Had you ever read

4 anything like this before?"

5 THE WITNESS: Hell, when you say, "like this before,"

6 could you be a little more specific, please?

7 MR. RUBIN: Well, I think Mr. Carta and I knew

8 what I was talking about, that Hunt would be involved in the

9 Kennedy assassination conspiracy by the CIA.

10 THE WITNESS: I hadn't heard of that before. But

11 based on the source, why, I was prepared to believe it.

12 BY MR. RUBIN:

13 Q All right. And you believed it. Did you ask

14 Hr. Marchetti where he got this information fron?

15 I believe we have covered that ground before.

A

16 Q I mean before publication. You asked him in great

17
detail after my letter.
18
A Right.
19 Q That was after publication.

20 A Yes.

21 Q Did you ask him in any detail before?

22 A Not in any detail. I asked him what his sources

 '

fl were, and he said CIA sources.

2 Q Did you ask him if you could talk to those sources?

A No.

I'm going to refer to the affidavit chat you

5 Ii submitted in support of the Motion For Summary Judgment.

6 Who prepared this affidavit for you?

7 II MR. LEE: I object to the form of the question.

3 It assumes that somebody prepared it for him.

''
9 MR. RUBIN: Yes.

lO THE WI'rNESS: As far as I know, it vlas typewritten

11 by Br. DeRemer.
!i
12 :i
BY MR. RUBIN:

13 II Q And who prepared the contents of what was typed?

1.
14 A I did.
15
II
Q This is all your own wording?
"'
16 '
A No.
17 I, Q \'Tho assisted you?
18
A ~1r. Lee.
19
Q As Treasurer of.Liberty Lobby, Incorporated, how
20
"
1/ much is that corporation worth today?
21
A You are referring, of course, to the property that
22
i
is O'Hned by· Lobby, are yo~ not?

:I

II
II
'
'

Q That's part of it.

2 A Well. if not that, then what?

3 Q Bank accounts, assets.

J A Oh, well, I consider that to be property.

5 II Q All right.

6 A Assets and bank accounts and so on and so forth.

I!,1
!i
7 Oh, I don't !:now. I would say maybe $500,000, at the most.

8 Q How many subscriptions do you have to The Spotlight?

I
1:
9 ' A wait just a minute. From that would have to be
11
10 deducted our accounts payable, which would be at least

11 $100,000.
I

"'
I'
12 I beg your pardon?
II
. i
13 Q How many subscriptions do you have for The Spotlight?
II I
14 A Well, I can't answer that specifically because it
II
15 11
changes from day to day.

16
i Q I will take round figures.
17 A Three hundred thousand and more.
18
Q And how much is each subscription?
19 A Well, subscription is $22 a year.
d
20
II Q Do you give any away free?
21
A Oh, yes.
II
H Q Hrn·1 many?
I
i
i!

II
II
 r
'
.,

:i'

A Perhaps a thousand copies a ..Veek. 1

2 Q And this is a weekly publication?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 ,, Q And what does it cost to put The Spotlight out?

5 II A What costs would you care to include in that?

6 Q The whole thing. From the $22 times 300,000, h0\'7

i
7 i much does ·~
J_ '- cost you?
'I $22 times
8 I• A Well, you are talking about income?
1:
9 300,000 is income?
I!
10 Q Right.

1i A But you asked what it costs us to put it out.

ii
i2 Q That you deduct from your income, don't you?

13 I'm talking about net, okay? What do you net? Hhat does

14 I, Liberty Lobby, Incorporated, net from putting out The Spotlightj

15 I' A Oh, nothing. It's nonprofit. \·le have no stock-
!
16 holders. We have no profit.
17 I wasn't asking that. I was asking what does
Q

l8
Liberty Lobby net from the publication and circulation and the
19
selling of subscriptions to The Spotlight?
20 That's an impossible question
II A Well, I don't know.
21 It has to be looked at in the whole. \·le have --
11 to answer.
22 Don 1 t you }cnov1 hovJ much your ·maili11g is and pri!l t:ing,
Q

!I

II
II
.

i
I•
II and paper? And salaries of people?

2 A Well, yes, but you see, for instance, would you

3 include the salary of our chairman in that?

4 Q vi ell, you are the Treasurer, sir. Do you knm·1

5 II what is included?

6 A No, I don't. No, I don't, and the reason is

I:
7

8 A 1:Jo one.

9 Q Who could I depose?

I
10 A There is no one.

11 Q No one?

12 No. If you will give me a moment, I will try to

Ii A
11
13 explain.
Ii
14 Q Sure.
11

A Because almost everyone in Liberty Lobby devotes a

16 portion of his time to The Spotlight, and some of the people

17 devote all of their time to The Spotlight. And it's extremely

18 difficult to try to separate them.

19 MR. LEE: Could I ask because I'm questioning

20 I! the relevance of this detail

21 MR. RUBIN: Punitive damages.

1.2 L'-'lR. LEE·: That's wha~ ~ was going to ask, it ~c~

ii
'I
ii

II
II
 I would explain for the record what the purpose of i t is.

MR. RUBIN: Well, we have asked for punitive damages,

2

3
and I believe the Plaintiff is entitled to know the worth

4
of the Defendant so that the jury can decide "'hat a proper

5 II punishment would be, in the e1.rent they reach that phase of

It's called smart money in the law. Smart
6 I! deliberations.

7 meaning sting, I believe.

8 BY r·IR. RUBIN:

9 Q So you can't ans~ver that question?

For the reasons given ~1r. Rubin.

10 A 1

11 Q All right. Okay.

12 MR. LEE: Mr. Rubin, ·~

1. .L you want a detailed

13 breakdown of expenses and expenditures, and so forth, and

,I
14 if you are entitled to it under the laws of discovery, then
!I
15 I think it would be more appropriate that we supply that in
I·
16 \\ written form, because it would be a job for accountants, book-

17 ' keepers and so forth, and not something that a man would

18 carry in his head.

HR. RUBIN: I will be content with that.
19
Particularly since it's evident from
20 MR. LEE:
i
what Mr. Carta said that Liberty Lobby does not keep a break-
21
I
1. do\vn ~..1hich does specif:/ 11ov1 much
is left ove~ o= s~ot~ig~t

1\

i
•

"1;
II we have established. I wouldn't know whether Mr. Carta should

2 say that The Spotlight is a non-rrofit publication.

3 MP.. RUBIN: Very good.

4 BY MR. RUBIN:
11

5 11 Q Does The Spotlight make any money for Liberty Lobby?

6 A The Spotlight does not make any money for Liberty

II::
7 Lobby.
,I
8 Q Then it costs of $6 million a year to produce and
'I
I,
11
9 ,,
distribute The Spotlight, is that right?
""
10 MR. LEE: That's not what he said. I'm sorry that

11 ,,
I.

I! we have to fall back on the discussion r.,·re have now hac1. This
12
Ii is a matter we will be glad to cover in the way we have
13 I
described.
II
14
MR. RUBIN: All right. Let's not waste time on
15 I
that.
16
BY r·1R. RUBIN:
17
In your affidavit, paragraph 7, you state that you
18
believed that the statements made in the article were true
19
and that the future possibilities which were discussed in the
20
!I article were reasonable and based logically upon facts.
21
!1R. LEE: I would like Mr. Carta to see his
22
I affidavit, which he doesn't have 1·;ith him.
I

I
Ii
' 35

I,

II MP.. P.UBIN: [Handing document to witness.] It's at

2 i the top of the page.

3 MP.. LEE: If you want to take time ancc read the whole

4 ; thing, feel free.

5 Ii BY MR. RUBIN:

6 Q You state that the future possibilities which were

7 discussed in the article were reasonable and based logically

8 i,,. upon facts . One of those is:

I
9 ' "In the ;:oublic hearings, the Cil'. will ao.mi t tl1at

10 Hunt was involved in the conspiracy to kill Kennedv."

- I

11 You state that this future possibility is reasonable

12 ,, and based logically upon facts. f•Jhat facts was that statement
'

13 ,, based on?
11

II
14 I' A Well, Mr. P.ubin, I tried to explain this, that we
11
15 were relying completely on the expertise a.nd J:nowlec~ge and
I
16
I
the reputation, the background, the associations, the contacts,

17 I the integrity of 11r. ~·1archetti.

18 j ~!R- LEE: May I see the affidavit, please?

19
I MR. RUBI!l: Sure. It's in the top paragraph there.
20 BY HP.. RUBIN:
11

21 Q Then you want to tal:e that statement out of your

22 affidavit?
11
il

II
II
 36

A I'm not sure I understand.

2
"I! MR. LEE: Let me read the statement again, please.
II
":1
'I
3 And I am quoting from ~lr. Car to' s affidavit dated November 9,
J;
4 '
1981:
I
5 I "I believed that the statements made in the article

6 11 were true and that the future possibilities which

11
7 were discussed in the article were reasonable an6

8 I
based logically upon facts."

9
I,
I That statement was preceded by the following: Paragraph 7
!
I
10 of the affidavit:
!I
1.
11 "Before Liberty Lobbv's acceptance of the

12
I Marchetti article of August 14, 1978 for publica-

13 tion, I spoke with Victor Marchetti about the

14 content of the article, and was assured by him

15 that i t was based on excellent confidential

16 sources who had firsthand knowledge of the matters

17 which were present in r·1archetti' s article. n

18
And then he goes on to say:
19
"I believed that the statements made in the
20 11
article were true.
i
21 Mr. Carto, in that affidavit -- his wording speaks for
22 itself -- was saying that he believed, after speaking with

I
II
i
 57

Mr. Marchetti, that the statements in the article were true

2 and based upon facts. He does not state that he knew all the

3 facts upon which the statements were based.

4 BY MR. RUBIN:

5 II Q Do you want to answer that question now that your

6 I\ attorney has told you?

I'
7 A \·/ell, frankly, sir, I don't know how to a.ns,·1er

8 1: other than the way that I did.

9 I'I' Q All right. We' 11 go on.

I
'
10 i Another statement about future possibilities is:
I
11 "E. Howard Hunt will be implicated in the conspiracy;
I
12 I and he will not dare to speak out. The Cil\ will I
i,
13 II see to that."
i
14 Hhat facts was that based on, or was it completely
II
15 11 ~1r. Marchetti's integrity that you were depending on?
16 A That's correct.

17 All right. Did you do anything to check out his

18 integrity?
19 A !1r. Harchetti •· s integrity?

20 \[I, Yes.
21 A Yes. Well, yes, indeed.

22

i
~· '
< >
SB
:.,~
I•
!I
I
A Before we printed the first ar'ticle, we ran a

2
thorough check on him.

Q Thorough? Who did you check with?

3

A Other CIA sources that we had.

4

5 Q Like who?

6 A [Pause.]

~·1R. LEE: I didn't know if you wanted to discuss

7

s this with me, Mr. Carto, or

9 TI-1E \tJITNESS-: Do you want her to go off the record?

10 11P.. LEE: Can we just talk off the record for a

11 minute?

12 MR. RUBIN: Yes.

13 [Discussion off the record.]

14 [Conference out of the room between witness and his

15 counsel.]

16 1-!P.. RUBIN: Let the record reflect that Mr. Carte

17 and l1is attorney left the room to consult, vrith my permission.

18 MR. LEE: Okay. We're ready to go ahead.

19 l1R.. RUBIN: All right?

20 MP.. LEE: Maybe we should have the question read

21 back.

22 THE IHT::mss: That's all right. The sources i:rere

'F

59
,,
!.
Iij,

\i
I confidentie.l, the information I was given was from trusted
I
2 I individuals, and I would respectfully decline to answer that
I'

3 I question.
!
4 HR. P.UBIN: All right. We'll certify that, please. Ji
I
5 I THE \'TITNES"S: But let me go on. That certainly
!
6 wasn't the only source that we checked. I believe I have

7 listed numerou.s other avenues that we took to assert !'Ir_

8 Marchetti's credibility.
9 BY MR. RUBIN:
10 Q Did you look at the injunction that had been
11 entered against him by the CIA?
12
A. I knew of it.
13 0 Did you read it?

14 .A No, sir.

15 Q Did that at all question !1r - !1archetti's integrity,

16 that he was accused by an Agency of the United States

17 Government of violating his oath that he took when he was

18 hired as a CIA agent?

19 Or don't you interpret the injunction like that?
I
20 A Under the circumstances, I don't think I would
!
21 interpret the injunction in that way.

22 i Q How did you interpret it? From what he told you?

11
II
 "II MR. LEE: First, Mr. Carto said that he didn't

2 rec.d it, the actt1al \'Jording.

3 THE l'HTNESS: No, but I knew of it, of course, and

I realizer1 tl1at this t.vas a 11iqhly 1;:olitical matte!:'.

5 BY MR. RUBIN:

6 Q In what way? \•ihat political side was the CIA on?

!!
7 A The Cil'. had its by ~olitical, I don't mean

3 The CIA had its own interests to protect.

;1
P artisan.
9 Q Yes, the security of this country, isn't that

10 the interest that they said they had to protect?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And what was Mr. '1archetti 's political side?

13 A He had a different opinion of that. I believe his

111
14 , reasons are laid out ver·." copiously in his two books, rhe
I ,
15 I. Rope Dancer," and "The CIA and The Cult of Intellic;ence."

16 Q When somebody violates an oath, do you feel that

17 that questions that per.son's integrity?

18 MR. LEE: I object to the form of that question.

19 In fact, I would advise you not to answer it, because it's

1
\ a hypothetical question.
21 BY MR. RUBIN:
2'2
II
n

:1

II
II
 Liberty Building -- from the Liberty Building?

2 MP.~ LEE: I object to that r,uestion as being

3 irrelevant and not possibly leading to the discovery of any

4 admissible evidence.

5 II MR_ RUBIN: I intend to show that it wilL

6 BY 11.R- RUBIN:
Ii
r
7 Q Did anybody steal any letters fror.>. you who had

8 been in your employ?

9 1·1R LEE: !·laybe you should show how it will.

10 !·1R. RUBIN: Hell, when I ask the ouestions, you can

li object and tell him not to answer, if you wish.

12 BY HR- RUBIN:
ii'
13 Q Did any employees of yours ever steal any letters
II
i4 from you?
II
15 MR. LEE: l'lell, I an 2.dvising you not to anst•1er
11
i6 unless there is some direct tie-in with this article, or with

17 Mr. !'.1archetti-
18 THE VHTNESS: On the advice of counsel, I will

19 decline to answer that_

20 BY .MR- RUBIN:
Ii
21 Q All right_ Has anybody ever stolen any secrets
II
~ram you?

!\

II
II

I
 j \.

' : .3

I'
BY MR- RUBIN:
II
2 1· Q Did you ever inspect it before accepting Nr.

3 ;· Marchetti's manuscript?
'
4 iviR. LEE : ~·lr . Carte has already answered that
ii
5 II ques ~·
L.ion. He said no.

6 BY MR. RUBIN:
Ii
II
7 Q Okay. Let's get on.

8 At the last sentence of paragraph eight of your

9 affidavit -- it reads as follows:

0 "I had no doubts about the truthfulness of the

statements contained in the article."

2 How can future possibilities be true or false? Mr.
3 Marchetti made many predictions of things that never came true. '
1
4
·1 You say that you had no doubt about the truthfulness of those
.5
I at the time you published this.

MR. LEE: That statement speaks for itself, Hr.

7
Rubin.
18
r.!R. RUBIN: Do you want to instruct him not to
19
ans\·1er?
0 No, but what is the question? The state-
' II MR. LEE:

ment is what it is.

[' II
22 '

II

II
II
1 "

,:
•'
"
II
f,
BY MR. RUBIN:

2 Q How can a prediction of something that hasn't

3 happened yet be true or false?

I tl1in}.::. you are misrea(ling that, rlr. Rubin.

·I
s 11 Q I must be.
ii
A What that affidavit is trying to say, and I apologiz~
II I
' :1
!7 if it isn't clear to you, is that, based on the facts which
!:
I
!8 II Mr. Marchetti alleged, it raised a reasonable possibility of
I
I
!9
Ii
i j1 certain events transpirinq.
: :I
I'
1bI i Q And did it raise the possibility of the worst possible
•i
I
Ii
i'l
I
!
ji scenario for Mr. Hunt?
:
12I :I A That's a value j uc19men.t I' in not capable of making.
i 'i
I
13 I' Q Did you make it at the time this manuscript
' i
•:
was submitted to you?
15 I
A As I say, I can't make -- Hhat the worst possible
i6 i
thing that could happen to Mr. Hunt could probably be
17
answered better by 11r. Hunt.
18 Q Yes. All right.
19
Did you consider, when you read the manuscript
20
II before publishing, what the effect on Mr. Hunt was going to be,
21
if any? Did that play a part in any of your considerations
I
whether to publish it or not?

I
II
ii
 A At the time the manuscript was discussed, before i t

2 had been written, I re!'lember having the feeling that if these

3 possibilities would be exposed to the light of day, why, they

4 probably would help Mr: Hunt. I had no reason to be at odds

5 with Howard Hunt. So far as I knew, he and I both shared a

6 Ji similar viewpoint in our love of America, our concern for the

7 national security of the UniteC States, our belief that the

8 CIA was an important instrumentality of the United States in

9 carrying out our policy.

10 lmcl. I certainly never had any reason to feel that

:' 11 this article 1·10uld, in any way, hurt Hunt, but that, if anything,
!
it would bring these matters to the attention of a lot of

'13
,, people and quite possibly that there would be second thoughts
!·
: 14 given to it.
! 15 Q If you thought that it might possibly help him,

'16 why did you not send him a copy of the article before i t was

17 published for his comments?

18 Hell, in the first place, I had no idea where he

19
I'I lived.
'20 Is that why you didn't send it? You thought of
II Q

II sending it to him but you couldn't find his address?

. 22 A

II
ii
.,.._ r.

There were many, many other things to be consj_dered

2 at that time, both in The Spotlight and otherwise. I didn't ---
3 Tell us what the considerations were that compelled

you not to notify llr. Hunt at all before the article was
5
published.

MR. LEE: I will just object to the form of the

II
i
'7
0uestion, but continue with your answer.
8
THE WITNESS: I never gave it any consideration,
9
because I knew that I couldn't -- there was no way I could
jO
I possibly get in touch with him. I had no idea he was living

j1 in Florida, none whatsoever.

12I BY MR. RUBIN:
I
\3 Q But you asked somebody to check into the lawsuit
!
JJI mentioned in the article, did you not?
i I,I that >11as

1s A Yes.
i

Q And that man was Mr. Tucker?

!
]7
! A I believe he's the one that did it. Now, he may
\s
! have detailed it to someone else.
19
Q You don't know if he detailed it to you?
20
i/ A Pardon?
21
Q You don't know if he detailed it to you or not?
";.~
A r-To. I'm the one tl1at c~skecl i:Vlr. TucJ:er to check or.

II
11
 r
;

,,
r
[! it. He could hardly turn around and detail it to me.

2 Q Why not? After checking i t out, didn't he report

3 back to you whether it was confirmed or not, the allegation?

A That's not what you saic.. You said he would detail

5 it to me to check it out.

Detail the answers to you of his inquiry. That,' s

6 Q No.
I
7 meant.

i That's correct.
8
1:
A

9 11 Q Did he?

i A I'm certain he must have. I have no recollection

10
I
11 I, of it.
i
12 ! Q Well, wouldn't that reveal, then, where Mr. Hunt
j

13 Ii livec1?
[i
14 A Of course not.
Ii You mean if he checked out the filing, it woulc.n' t
15 Q

16 reveal

17 A v}hat file?

18 Q Of the lawsuit that you asked him to check out.

19 A I am not -- I don't I am not aware that he

20 checked out the lawsuit per se.

I\
21 Q Do you know how he confirmed the allegation in
11
22 this story?
11

:1
,'

II
II
 .
., '·

ii
i" A No, sir.

2 Q All right. He'll ask him.

3 Paragraph eight of your affidavit, you recite that:

A "!Ir. Marchetti was a reliable, well-known author

5 and had a broad and deep knowledge of intelligence

6 matters and the CIA, CIA personnel and CIA methods. "
Ii1:
7 Did he have -- or did you ask him if he had the sar11e

8 ,. kind of information concerning the FBI and the House Soecial

I! -
9 "
I
Committee on Assassinations?

10 I don't recall.

11 Did you ask him where he got the information he

12 was using in the article from the House Select Committee or

13 I: Special Committee on Assassinations -- who was his source

!i'
14 on that cor:unittee?
Ii,,
15
I'" A I don't recall.

16
Ii I would just put in here that we are
MR. LEE:

17 covering ground that has been discussed before, the naming

18 of sources prior to publication.

19
I MR. RUBIN: We covered sources from the CIA. Now

20 I\ I'm asking about the House Cammi tc:ee.

21 BY MR. RUBIN:
i '"lr. l-larchet ti re,lec:~led to vou the sot1rces, "';/OU
22
·I
I

II
ii
r

I',,
'i
1,,, you do not recall it?
i:
2 }I_ That's correct.

3 i Q All right. Do you reoernber whether or not he did

I
4 reveal that source?

5 A I don't remember.

5 Q How about from the FBI? Did he reveal who his

Iii:
7 source ;,vas frorr1 the FBI?

8 A No. I mean not that I remember.

9 Q Did the fact that Mr - Narchetti 111as involved in

lO litigation back and forth with the CIA, die! that raise in your

11 I'i! mind any possible bias or prejudice that he might have held
11
12 ,,,1 against the CIA?
]:
II
13 A Well, Mr. Rubin, you say the CIA. I don't know

14
'I
11
if there's any the CIA or not. The CIA is composed, as you

15 I well know, of many different groups of individuals, and what

16 their attitude may be at one time or another is rather impossib1e

17
to determine_
18 Q All right. Let me ask you, then, at the bottom of

19 page two, paragraph nine of your affiC.avi t, what did you mean

20 \[ by the CIA when you said:

21 "I knew that Marchetti and the CIA had been

21
II involvecl in legal act.:.ons against one another.
11

11

II
11
'
,,
~ (\

\'/ho were you talking about?

2 A I was talking about the legal actions Mr. Marchetti

,,ti
11
3 was engaged in.
li
:~
4 Q Against who?
ij

5 11
A Where he was, I believe, a defendant in a CIA
I

6 action.
7
II
I! Q All right. And who is the plaintiff?

8 A The CIA.

9 i Q Okay. Is that the CIA we are both talking about,

I
10
Ii then?

ll I
'I A No. Not the CIA I am talking about.
11
12 II Q Okay. l·Jha t CIA were you tallcing about in your

13 I affidavit?

14
I
A In that particular? I was talking about whoever it

15 is that issued the orders to the legal division of the CIA

16 to file suit.
17 Q Did that give rise to any suspicion on your part
l8
that Mr. Marchetti might have been prejudiced against the CIA
19 in this manuscript that he submitted to you?
20 A Well, he certainly was at odds with certain groups
11

21 within the CIA, but by the same token, he had, and I assume he
22
i
still has, friends among other groups within the CIA.

II
i
I

,,i:
!i,, Q That didn't make you question anything he wrote
i
2 I about the CIA, then?
3 A Oh, absolutely.
/,
4 Q It did, or it did not?

5 Ii A It did.
!

6 Q And did you question him on what he wrote?

11
7
!
A \·!ell, you can see I d.ic1 question, on the rnanuscri9t.
i
8 I
I () All right. Did i1r. Ma.rchetti tell you, before

9
Ii
publication, that one of the sources that he was using for this'.
10 manuscript was a newspaper published in New York called, "The
11
I.
II
I ·Yipster Times? 11

i"
12 A r1o.

13 I Q Did you find that out later?

i
14 1 A I don't think he ever mentioned that. He did

15 i nention that, at some point -- and I think this i;vas after ·tl1e

16 article -- that there was -- well, no, in the article that

17 there was a lawsuit with this W. A. Weberman, who may be whom

18 you are referring to.

19 Q Yes, sir, the publisher of "Tl1e Yipster Times?"

20 A Uh huh. t1r. Rubin, if I may interject something

II
21
II right here?

Q All right.

II
II

II
II
 -~
I -

,,
I'.I
Ii A Liberty Lobby has been one of the victims of The
"1:
2 !~ Yipster Times. They have published our telephone number, along

3
,,,, with the telephone numbers of dozens and dozens 0£ other groups,
"
4 Ii.I includin<J the biggest corporations, the biggest business
,,
5 II corporations in the United States, urging their people to tele-
",,
6 phone us at our expense and to use our number to make telephone
Ii
ji
7 calls.
,,
8 " They have referred to us in terms hardly of
/i
9
Ii endearment, which I think underlines what I previously said,
I'L
10 i that we were mortified at your decision to file this lawsuit
p
11 i.
ii without any effort at all to get us to publish any sort of a
i:"
12 Ii retraction--or a clarifying story, let me say -- not a retraction.
"
I'
·I

13 11
Q You have already answered that the report of the

14 i House Committee called for no correction in The Spotlight of

i
15 " this article which predicted what the Committee would do a.nd
II
16 they didn't do it.
17 A Hell, what I said, sir, was that we gave you -- we

18 urged you or Nr. Hunt to write an article or to have an

19 interview, I believe i t was, which we could have conducted by

20 telephone, as far as that goes, in regard to this matter.

21 And you showed no interest in it whatsoever. As £ar as \.·le kne\•l ,.

I
21 the whole thing was dead. It died at least twice.

I
I\
II
 73

,,
I
'

Ii And so, it was one of the most surprising things I

2 have ever encountered to find out that for some reason it's

3 still alive.

4 Q I predict i t will get more surprising as time goes

5 Ii by.

6 MR. LEE: Let me make a comment. I don't believe

II
11
7 Mr. Carto answered the question, but you asked a question 'rlhich

8 implied that there had been some decision by Liberty Lobby

9 based on the House Special Committee Report.

10 I believe Mr. Carto had already discussed with you

11
I
11 1:
Ii his knowledge or Liberty Lobby's knowledge of that document,

12 i1
and I don't think it fits in his previous answers that there
'[
13 I would have been some decision based on information in it,

14 :because I believe, if I'm not mistal:en, that he said he hadn't

15 read it.
16 I'm not sure. If I am wrong, I'm sorry. But I

17 don't want to get involved in a confused description of that.

18 BY HR. RUBIN:
19 Q All right. Let me ask you your present state of

20
i mind, Mr. Carto. Now that you know that nothing in the articlel

21 came true -- practically nothing "b'lat Hr. Harchetti and The

22
i Spotlight and Liberty Lobby predicted would come true, and

II
II
 !,
11
I!
" since the demand for a retraction was made before the Committee
11
1,
I:
2 Ii,, released its report, do you intend to do anything to live up
"
1, to your guarantee to your readers to correct this article?
3
11
4 MR. LEE: I am goinq to interrupt, because, in view
I
of the fact that we are involved in a lawsuit which may be at
5
I
I
' trial tomorrow, I am not going to have Mr. Carta speculating
I
6
I' on what they would do. I think it's inappropriate for my
7 i:
I
- 'i
8 ' client to try to answer that question.

9 MR. RUBIN: Do you instruct him not to answer?

10 MR. LEE: I will instruct him not to answer if it's

II
11 Ill necessary to instruct him.

12 I It might be appropriate, if you hac.n' t sued Liberty

13 I Lobby and simoly •Irate anc said "Now what are you willing

14 I to do< " Bot : o v;ev of tho 'ag:i nit oa t!on, ' am ado ;i ning him

15 not to answer.

16 BY HR. RUBIN:

17 Q All right. Did Hr. Marchetti have anything to do

18 with the headlines that were published?

19 A I don't know.

20 Q \'Jl-io would know that?

i(
21 A 1'1r. Tuc}c.er, I pr es urae.

22
I Q i'.11 right - \"lho picked out the pictures to be used

I
II
i
 75

,i!
ii
I,

in the article?

2 A I don't know.

3 Q l·!ho would know that?

I
I
I
4 I A Mr. •ruck er, I presume.
I
5 Q And who wrote the caption underneath the pictures?
I
6
) A I don't know.

7
I I
Q !lave you ever seen any depositions by Mr. Marchetti
I
8 in the case that Howard Hunt has pending against Mr. Weberraan?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Did you ask him if he had given any before publica-

11 tion?

12 A Did I ask who?

13 () Victor Marchetti?

14 A l1o.

15 () Reading the article today of August 14, 1978, an0

16 knowing that the predictions did not corae true, do you feel

17 that Mr. Marchetti fabricated any of the story?

13 f'1P-.. LEE: I object to that question. The question

19 before the court or before a jury in this case is the state --

20 I. if there is any such question -- the state of the mind of the

I
2.1 II publisher at the publication, not the state of the mind of the

22 1• publisher three years later. So I \Vill resf?ectfully- have to

II
Ii
 I'

\i
1!
I/ advise the witness not to testify.
II
2 BY MR. RUBIN:
II
j!

3 Q Was there anything in the article which is a product

11

4 Ii of Mr. Marchetti's imagination?

5 MP.. LEE: I object to the form of that question.

11

6 i MR. RUBIN: Are you instructing him not to answer?

7 II MP.. LEE: The 1,.._ritness certainly can't read 1'1r.

:J

8 i Marchetti's mind. You say is there anything in the article

9 which is a product of his imagination?

10 I If you want -- I'm not telling you how to ask it,

11 I.
I but if you wanted to word it, 11
Have you discovered that
I
12 anything in the article was a product of llr. Marchitti's

13 imagination," he could speak as to his personal knowledge as

14 to his own discoveries.

15 BY MP.. RUBIN:

16 Q Well, let's ask that c:cuestion. Did you understand

17
it?
18 A Absolutely not.

19 Q All right. That's your answer?

20 A I have not discovered anything at all that would

I\
21 lead me to believe that anything has been fabricated in this

22
I article.

II
.l
7/

i
!~
() All right. Or the product of his imagination? Which

2 would be the same thing?

3 A Same thing.

4 MR. LEE: The same answer.

11

5 ji BY MR. RUBIN:

6 Q Was there anything in the article v1hen you saw it

7 that was based on any anonymous source which led to your

8 inquiring who was the source from Mr. Marchetti?

9 I MR. LEE: I believe that question has already been

10 answered several times.

I

11 I,' I will withdraw that

E1R. RUBIN: All right.

12 1.
question.
13 It BY MR. RUBIN:
"
14
I! Q When you first read the manuscript, Mr. Carto, did
Ii'
";I
15 I: you feel that it was highly probable that it was true, or

16 I highly probable that it was implausible?

17
I A Highly probable that it was true.

18 All right. Did you have any reason to doubt the

I Q

19 I veracity of /•Jr. Marchetti?

20
i A No.

21 Q Or the accuracy of this report?

II
22 A As stateC numerous tioes before, no4

\I

II
II
.• , 79

a story and go after it, why, then we check it out every way
I
2 that we can.
I
3 If it's a known author, such as Mr. Marchetti's
I
article, why, we don't -- we don't feel the same necessity
4
I to check out every detail.
5
I
6 Depends entirely on who the author is, and the

7 circumstances by which we acquire the story.

8 Q Then there is no need for me to go through every

9 sentence of the article and say, "Who did you check to verify

10 this?" You depended en ti rely on Mr. Marchetti?

11 A I believe we did go through the entire article,

12 sentence by sentence, already, in this deposition.

13 Q Oh, no. I certainly haven't. It's a long article.

14 I didn't go through every sentence.

15 A Well, Mr. Rubin, let me prompt your recollection.

16 We went through the entire manuscript, sentence by sentence,

17 just a few minutes ago, and you asked me a number of questions.

18
Q But I didn't ask you who was your source for that

19 sentence.
!;
20
II MR. LEE: Let me sugc;est that we get back to the

21
question. He just asked, would there be any purpose in his

22 going through this final printed •.•ersion. I would say you can

II
 80

~ i
·i
i

I say yes or no if you want.

2 THE WITNESS: Hell, obviously, if Mr. P.ubin is really

3 interested in getting at the facts, then he should talk to the

4 author of the article, /.!r. Marchetti. He dropped Mr. Marchetti

5 from the suit, he's not interested in talking to Mr. Narchetti,

6 for reasons known best to himself.

7 I have nothing more to say about the article. I

8 can't -- if you have any other questions, I will be happy

9 to sit here all night long. I have told you all I know about

10 it, sir.

11 BY MR. RUBIN:

12 Q If I went through the article, sentence by sentence,

13 and asked you who is the source for that sentence, who did you

14 check out for that sentence being true and correct, would your

15 answers be, "I depended on Mr. Narchetti?"

16 That would be part of it. I would also raise the

A

17 simple issue of the preposterous nature of such a suggestion.

18 We are trying to get out a newspaper. No newspaper

19 in the world double checks every sentence. They have to rely

•I
20 lion
,. their sources.
'
All right. Were there any more standards that you
21
I Q
to list as to how The Spotlight receives an article,
22
\wanted

I'
I
 82

Q All right.

2 A If not more.

3 Q Were you faced with any deadline -- haste -- in

i
I
i
4
I publishing this?

5 I' A I frankly don't recall when the article came in

I
6 I and what relation that bore to the deadline, nr. Rubin. I can't
I

!
:1
I
7 i say that. We may have had the article sitting around for
1:
8 weeks before we used it.
I
9 I know some of these articles here, Mr. Marchetti
I
I
10 was paid before they were printed. \'lhich means that we had
\1
11 II them in the pipeline and we had so many other things that we
'
'
12 I decided to postpone them.

13 Q Well, who made the decision on when to use this

14 article we are talking about? Was that you or Mr. Tucker?

15 A I really don't recall it. Probably i t was Mr.

16 Tucker, since he has all these day-to-day decisions to make

17 in regard to what articles are used.

18 Q Vlhen you read the manuscript, did you think that

19 it posed some kind of a danger to the reputation of Howard

20 Hunt? I have asked that in another way, but I want to ask i t

21 plain and simple th.is time.

I
22 A No.

I
I\
II
 83

Q All right. At the time this article was submitted

2 to you by Mr. Marchetti, were you familiar with the results of

3 the Rockefeller Commission that investigated the assassination

4 of President Kenneo.y? Their report was published. in 19 7 5.

5 A As I say, Mr. Rubin, there has been so much on this

6 assassination, so many different people have gotten involved,

7 so much matter which is obviously false and distorted and

8 twisted and tortured has been brought out, and there's so many

9 people have been named, and all that sort of thing, that I

10 really don't recall.

11 Did you feel that there was anything
Q All right.
12
in the article which was inherently implausible?
13
A No.

14 Q Did you feel when you first saw the manuscririt,

15 based on so many stories having come out, that this story or

16 any part of i t was highly improbable?

17 A No.

18 Q When this story came in from Mr. Marchetti, did you

19 I. have any files which contained information on Howard Hunt?
;i
20 II A I don't know. I would say I suppose we probably did.
i
21 Q Did you check those files before publishing the
I
22 article?

11
 84

;,
ii
•'

II
'I A \'/ell, as I say, Mr. Rubin, you asked me that when we
I:
2 I' started out, and I was in a general way aware of Mr. Hunt's
I
3 involvement in this, including the accusations of homicide
II I
I

4 leveled against him and the whole extremely mysterious backgrourl.d

I
5 to everything. II
I
I
6 I So I suppose all this is in the file somewhere. i
I!
7 Q Did you look at that file before accepting this
11
8 manuscript?

9 A Ho.

10 Q Did you or Mr. Tucker, as far as you know -- I can

11 ask him, but -- did you or Mr. Tucker talk to anyone involved

12 in the article?

13 A Like who?

14 Q Any person who was named in the article. Weberman,

15 Canfield, anyone from the CIA, anyone from the FBI, anyone from

16 the House Committee?

17 MR. LEE: Why don't you just speak for yourself.

18 BY MR. RUBIN:
19 Q Yes, speak for yourself.
20 I \•/ell, all right. I really don't, Mr. Rubin. As I
I
21 said, this matter, at that time, was particularly hot, and I
I
1
22 would say, yes, I probably did. Because there's a hundred
I
I

II
11
'.'_I J

" 85
i!
!I
I

different avenues to go up, if you want to investigate this

2 thing, and everyone has their own theories.

3 Q If you had talked to somebody, how would you start?

4 Who would you have talked to?

5 A Well, I would not make it a point to tall( to

6 anybody, because I am bored with the whole assassination thing.

7 Q But you weren't at the time this article was

8 published.

9 A I just explained to you, we ran the article because

10 of Mr. Victor Marchetti' s name.

ll Q All right. Thank you.

12 When you chose this article to be published, at

13 the time that i t »ms, did you intend that it would help your

14 circulation or help your reputation of The Spotlight?

15 A Well, we don't run any stories that we don't

16 consider will do that.

17 Q Mr. Carta, did you do anything after the article

18 was printed and after you got my letters, to investigate the

19
facts?
20 A Yes, sir. I believe I have already mentioned tHo

21 or three times that we asked Mr. Marchetti to come into the

22 office. He did, with Mr. Lee. \'le had an extensive discussion

II
 ,. 86
[i

I
with him, went over every point in the story. He gave us all

2 the background about it.

3 And at the conclusion of this -- and we questioned

4 him, of course, in every detail -- and at the conclusion of

5 this, why, then, we -- Mr. Lee wrote you the letter, I think.

6 Q All right. And felt that there was no need for any

7 retraction?

8 A Correct.

9 Q And did Mr. Marchetti, during those discussions,

10 did he tell you that some items in the article were based on
11 his speculation and his judgment?
12 A I don't -- I would get in an area of suppose. I

13 don't have a word by word recollection of that lengthy

14 discussion.
15 Q So you are unable to answer that question?

16 A Yesr sir.

17 We are almost done.

18 Did you ever see the CIA memo that he based that
19 story on?

20 MR. LEE: I have to object to the form of the

21 question in that it implies the whole story was based on the

22 memo. There are other things in the story. But go ahead and

i
 87

answer the question.

!i
2 ! A No, sir.

3 Q Did you ask Mr. Harquetti for it?

4 A I don't recall. However, my impression is, from
5
the story, that there is no -- he doesn't say that he has a
6
Ii copy of the memo. He certainly implies that he has seen the
7
I'I
!i memo.
8 So I wouldn't -- couldn't answer that.

9 Q Did you ask him if he saw the memo?

10 A Oh, yes.

11 Q h'hat did he say?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did you ask him under what circumstances, where,

14 when, how he happened to be shown it?

15 A I don't recall, as I say, all the details.

16 Q But this was after publication?

17 A After publication.
18 Q Did you ask him before publication?
19 A If he had seen the memo?
20 Q Yes.
21 Yes.
A

22 Q What did he say?

i
,,I
' 88
i
I

A I may have simply asked him to verify the memo.

2 When he's talking about the memo, it's sort of redundant to

3 ask him if he has seen the memo. Obviously, he's seen the memo

4 because he's writing about the memo.

5 What is to the point are his sources. And so that's

6 what we were interested in.

7 Q So you asked him to verify the memo?

8 A He asked him about his sources, yes, sir.

9 Q Before the publication? You didn't say that

10 before, I don't think.

11 MR. LEE: I think that I have to remind everybody

12 that we did cover this from several different angles, and I

13 think that it's in the deposition already.

14 MR. RUBIN: .Well,. I just wanted to make sure that

15 I wasn't misunderstanding anything.

16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rubin, I don't think you mis-

17
understand anything.
18
BY MR. RUBIN:
19 Did you ask Mr. Marchetti to verify the memo before
20
publication?
21 Could I just ask you to explain what
MR. LEE:
22
you-mean by nto verify" the memo?
 -· -~- .f

' f
89

MR. RUBIN: I'm using his word. He didn't explain

2 it. I'm assuming that he wanted to see something or be told

3 something that would verify that there was such a memo in

4 existence.

5 MR. LEE: Well, I think the question has been

6 answered already, then, because he's outlined for you and

7 explained in detail what he did prior.

8 MR. RUBIN: After.

9 MR. LEE: No, prior to. You brought this up before.

lO MR. P.UBIN: Prior to publication? All right.

11 BY MR. RUB.IN:

12 Q Do you want to rely on your answer before, or do you

13 want to clarify anything?

14 A No, sir.

15 Q All right. Did you ever have any meetings with

16 Mr. Lee or any other attorney before publishing this article

17
as to whether or not it would be safe to publish it?
18
A No.
19
Q Did you ever have any meetings with your attorney
20
before publishing this article,going over generally things to
21
look out for as a publisher?
22 In regard to this particular article?
A
' r.
90

Q No, in regard to your obligations to the public

2 as a publisher. You know, keeping you abreast of the latest

3 trends of the law of libel.

4 A Now your question is did I ever have a conference

5 \·Tith Mr. Lee or another attorney in regard to the type of

6 thing to look out for?

7 Q Exactly.

8 A As far as content in The Spotlight is concerned?

9 Q Yes.

10 A Well, yes, of course.

11 Q When was the time before this article was printed?

12 A Oh, I have no idea.

13 Q Was it in the same year, 1978?

14 Oh, this I suppose would go back to before -- I
A

15
mean, to the founding of The Spotlight and before.
16 Then you depend on your attorney to
Q All right.
17
advise you so that you won't get into lawsuits?
18
A Well, that --
19
MR. LEE: That's not -- I object to the form of that
20
question. If you asked him if he had ever had any meeting with
21
any attorney to discuss the problems of a publisher, or something
22 But that doesn't -- I mean, I believe that you are
like that.
 ··-.,...--·
• ' "
t· ' If
91
'i
I

getting far afield with the last question.

2 MR. RUBIN: All right. I will withdraw it.

3 BY MR. RUBIN:

4 Q The fact that in the story itself, Mr. Marchetti

5 wrote that Hr. Hunt had sued somebody else for several millions

6 of dollars over the same subject matter, the Kennedy assassina-

7 tion and Mr. Hunt's possible involvement, did that is

8 that what caused you to send Mr. Tucker or somebody to confirm

9 the lawsuit?
JO A I believe I have answered that question before,
11 /1r. Rubin. I believe I, at that time, was not aware of this
12 lawsuit, and so I wanted to find out about it. I don't know
13 if there was any substantive reason related to the content
14
of the two -- the Weberman suit and this story.
15
Q All right. Did it raise in your mind some question
16
about Howard Hunt suing:· people who accused him of being
17
involved in the Kennedy murder?
18 A Well, no, because we weren't making any such
19 accusation.

20 Q You read to article to mean that The Spotlight

21 wasn't accusing Howard Hunt of being involved in the conspiary

22 to murder Jack Kennedy?

 92

A That is precisely the way I read the article.

2 Q All right. Then if the article is false, then,

3 if it is false, then you don't consider it to be defamatory?

4 MR. LEE: I'm sorry, that's asking for a legal

5 conclusion. I won't permit him to answer that.

6 BY MR. RUBIN:

7 Q As a publisher, what is your definition of defama-

8 tory?
9 A Well, Mr. Rubin, if it's false--now obviously the
lO article is false in the sense that the CIA did not try to pin
11
i t on Mr. Mar -- rather, on Mr. Hunt.
12
As I say, I really believe that we can take credit
13 for that. That's my opinion. I really believe it, and I think
14
we should send our bill to Mr. Hunt for that.
15
Now, as far as what are my criteria as far as
16
defamation?
17
MR. LEE: I do have to suggest that you not try
18
to give legal definitions.
19
THE WITNESS: Yes.
20
HR. LEE: He said that they tried to publish the
21
truth.. I can't answer his questions for him, but he said
22
various thin0s which. The Spotlight tries to do in order to
 93

BY MR.RUBIN:

2 Q Did Mr. Marchetti, before publication, say that he

3 wrote this article because he thought i t was a great

4 contribution to the truth that the public should know, or

5 that he needed the money?

6 HR. LEE: I object to the form of that question.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't think he said either one.

8 BY MR. RUBIN:

9 Q What did he say as to the reason for bringing

10 The Spotlight this article, instead of Penthouse or some other

11 publication that he had written for before?

12 A I can't recall. It's quite a long time ago.

13 You don't know?

14 l,Jo, sir~
A

15 Q Okay. Affirmative Defense No. 2 says that the

16 article is true, which is a defense: vfua t witness es or

17 evidence do you intend to present at the trial in support of
18
that statement?
19 You will have to talk to our attorney on that,
A

20
Mr. Rubin.
21 Q You don't know?

22 A No, sir.
/ 94

Q All right. Before publishing this article, were

2 you having any trouble with William Buckley and The National

3 Review? Disagreements or even lawsuits?

4 A May I ask what the relevance is?

5 t-1R. LEE: I don't believe i t is relevant. Could

6 you explain how it might lead to any admissible evidence in

7 this case?

8 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I will be glad to.

9 BY MR. RUBIN:

10 Did you know that Mr. Buckley and Howard Hunt

Q

ll
served in the CIA together?
12
A Yes.
13 Q When did you learn that?

14 A Years ago.

15 Q Before publishing this article? Right?

16 A Hell, I suppose.

17 Q Did this play any part in your publishing this

18 article?
19 No.
A

20 Q Did Mr. Marchetti' s controversies and lawsLii ts with

21 ·:he CIA have any part in publishing this article?

22 A Oh, no. Except that this is what gave him certain

/
95

popularity.

2 Q v)ho?

3 A Mr. Marchetti.

4 Q You mean his controversy with the CIA gave him

5 popularity?

6 A Yes, sir, his name was publicly known because of

7 this reason, and this is why he wrote the book and etc. And

8 so, to that extent, you might say that that contributed

9 to our acceptance of the article, the fact that he was known,

10 and is.
11 Q You don't try to mislead your readers?

12 No, sir.
A

13 Q And you correct all of the errors that may appear?

14 All the errors that are brought to our attention,
A

15
except minor typographical errors, yes, sir.
16 Q Have you ever characterized the CIA as being
17 totally subject to the foreign policy of a foreign government?
18
A No.
19
Q Have you ever described the CIA as being totally
20
subject to the policy of the New York Times and the entire
21
State Department?
22 Oh, no.
A
 l
1'

Ii v·· ···
96

Q I think that's all I have. Oh, yes, one more

2 question.

3 Does Liberty Lobby have liability insurance?

4 A No. You mean libel?

5 Q Libel liability, yes.

6 A No, sir.

7 Q Does The Spotlight?

8 A No.

9 Q Has The Spotlight ever been sued before?

10 A No.

11 MR. RUBIN: That's all I have right now.

12 MR. LEE: No questions.

13 [Whereupon, at approximately 2:45 p.m., the taking

14 of the deposition was concluded.]

15 [I HAVE READ THE FOREGOING 96 PAGES

OF THIS TRANSCRIPT OF HY TESTIHO.NY,
16 AND, AS CORRECTED IN HY HANDWRITING
AND/OR ON THE ATTACHED ERRATA SHEET
17 THIS IS A TRUE AND ACCURATE
REFLECTION OF MY TESTIMONY.]
18

19

20
WILLIS A. CARTO
21
***~\"****
22

I!,,
 97
··~

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

2 I, Patricia H. Dowd, the officer before whom the

3 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the

4 witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition

5 was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

6 taken by me in Stenotype and thereafter reduced to typewriting

7 by me; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony

8 given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related

9 to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which

10 this depos_ition was taken; and, further, that I am not a

11 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by

12 the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in

13 the outcome of the action.

14

15
Notary Public in and for the
16 District of Columbia
17
Hy Commission expires
18
February 28, l985
19

20

21

22
 ~I

2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
3
i1IA;·1I DIVISION
4
NO. 80-1121 Div. JWK
5

6 E. HOWARD HUNT, JR., )

)
7 Plaintiff, ) 7={ -1L--
~- tu :'!" .

)
8 vs. ) G\~ '81_ ;.~nV 13 ·~I'"'•
I~
0·
)
9 LIBERTY LOBBY, a D.C. )
corporation, )
10 )
Defendant. )
11 )
)
12
-----

13 City National Bank Building,

Suite 701
14 25 West Flagler Street
Miami, Florida
15 November 4, 1981
1:15 P,l1.
16
APPEARANCES:
17
ELLIS S. RUBIN, Esquire,
18 on behalf of the Plaintiff.

19 TALBURT KUBICKI & BRADLEY

·..:. ..... ··-· .... By';·· 11rr:E:s ~K:''i1cGRA'."ifE'":i: I r~'-"'':E's'quir·Ei•;··,.~;"'''.1.~"·;'"" ~·
20 on behalf of the Defendant.
21 ALSO PB.ESENT:
22 DEI'-llTIS EOLOBER

23 DEPOSITION OF

24 l E. fiO~·J1~F.. D EtJ!'TT, _JR.

25 IL~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-<
; \I_, J?>
\.A
 2

2 The deposition of E. HOWARD HCNT, JR.,

3 taken for the purpose of discovery and for use as

4 evidence in the above-entitled cause, pending in

5 the United States District Court for the Southern
6 District of Florida, Miami Division, pursuant to
7 notice, before James J. Shipano, a Notary Public in
8 and for the State of Florida at Large, at the time
9 and place aforesaid.
10

11

12
I N D E X
13
WITNESS DIRECT
14
E. Howard Unit, Jr. 3
15

16

17

18

19
-· ··~

20

21

22

23

24

25

James
C!;;RTll"IEO
J· S
SHORT~•"'D
hipano
AEPOATERS
 3

2 Thereupon:

3 E. HOWARD HUNT, JR.

4 the Plaintiff herein, was called as a witness by the

5 Defendant and, having been first duly sworn, was

6 examined and testified as follows:

7 DIRECT EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. McGRAHE:

9 ~ What is your full name, sir.

10 A Everett Howard Hunt, Jr.

11 ~ How old are you, sir?

12 A. 63 •

13 ~ Your current address?

14 A 1245 Northeast 85th Street, Miami 33138.

15 ~ How long have you lived at that address?

16 A I bought the house in July 1974.

17 ~· You live there with your wife?

18 A My second wife, since our marriage, yes.

19 Q. How long have you been married to the

...., ~;.. ~-~ .... ,
_:-- -·-~

20 present Mrs. Hunt?

21 & Three and a half, almost four years~

22 U Your first marriaqe ended traqically in

23 a plane accident, as I recall from my recent history?

24 A. Yes. December 1972.
25

James J· S hipano
c;ERTI f'l E;O SHORT i..< ,_ND f> !:PORTE R'S
 4

2 Q. Other than those marriages, have we

3 covered all your marital status other than when you

4 were a bachelor?

5 A. Yes ..

6 Q. Do you have children by either marriage?

7 A. Yes, I have four children by my first

8 marriage and one child by the second.

9 Q. Do any of those children live with you?

10 A. Yes. My infant son 28 months old lives

11 with us.

12 Q. His name?

13 A. Austin D.

14 Q. Do you presently have gainful employment?

15 A. 1'To.

16 When was the last time, using common

Q.

17
terminology, that you were gainfully employed?
18 Until approximately June 19, 1972.
A.

19

20 certain documents produced in this case. It appears

21 -- correct me if I am wrong -- that practically all

22 your income now is from a pension plan from the CIA,

23
is that correct?
24 That's correct.
A.

25

Ja~es ) · S hipano
 ,.

2 Q. You aren't receiving royalties from any

3 source because of your publishing?

4 A. Sporadically I receive some.

5 Q. If we can, sir, let's go back in time

6 a little bit.

7 o·uring your adult life basically your

s employment was with the CIA.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In what various capacities?

11 I understand, and I don't know if you are

12 subject to this, that there are certain limitations

13 about what information you can give out.

14 That's correct.

15 Q. Without me trying to get you to violate

16 that understanding with your former employer, I

17 would just like a general overview of the type of

18 work you did with the CIA.

19 A. I was principally involved with -- well, "·

1"'--.·\il:"ii~'."'·i·~···.-:· ;,:;4~t:~~~1'i>:· ·-·B--""°':~-~-.1);.e:~'"":'>·.~·-.:..1:-~~"'.i.'.i.'>~~~-~::2.r...+J::3:¢:9-e1:~~;....::·_s·-:..Yai~~~;-"!"~fr:=j.~,.~~~·:..·::'"~"";iA.~:..-....Y.;fl;:\"i.~~~.~~· ·I(~
20 I was an overseer of the clandestine services. My

21 principal work was involved in covert actions.

22 Q. Basically the entire time you were with

23 the CIA?
24 A. Well, basically. But, of course, as a

25

James
CERTIFJE:O
J· S
s ... oR"l'"'ANO
hipano
REl"ORT£"5
 5

2 station chief in two countries, I had the intelligence

3 collection responsibilities.

4 Q. In what countries were you the station

5 chief?

6 A. In Uruguay, and at one time in 1952, in

7 Mexico.

8 Q. Before we get too much further, what is

9 your educational background?

10 A. Public high school in Hamburg, New York,

11 class of '35. Brown University with an AB in English

12 Literature, 1940. Naval Academy, commissioned 1941.

13 Q. You w~re with the CIA up through what

14 year?

15 A. Until May 1st, 1970 from, I believe,

16 October 1949.

17 Q. Why did you leave the CIA in 1970?

18 A. Well, I had reached sufficient years

19 that retirement was voluntary or optional with me

20 and I needed to increase my income through private

21 earnings beyond what my annuity would provide.

22 Q. Where did you seek employment?

23 A. I sought employment in the public

24 relations field and I accomplished that. I became

25

James J· S hipano
C>:RTlf'IEO Sl-<ORT...,'"'NO REPOflTO:RS
,.
------,

2 the Creative Vice-president for Robert E. Mullem &

3 Co., Washington, D.C.

4 Q. What type of work did the Mullem Company

5 do?

6 It was public relations.

7 They represented the Mormon Church and

8 a wide variety of firms. I'm trying to think of

9 some others. General Foods Company.
10 They were a representative, just toward
11 the end of my tenure, of the Hughes Tool Company
12 there in Washington; representative of the Bureau
13 of Education For The Handicapped of HEW, that was
14
one of my accounts.
15 We had the USIA account, which was also
16 mine, and I can't think of any others at the moment;
17
but i t was a diversity of accounts.
18
Q. Throughout this time and as far back as

20
A. That is correct.
21 I
i The types of books, and I am making a
\
22 generaltzation, I may be wrong, but from looking at
23
.the title>-. would be what we would commonly call
24
thrillers?
25

James J· Shipano
 0
u

2 A. Suspense adventures is the technical

3 term.

4 Q. Were they published under your name?

5 A. Very few were.

6 Q. Some were published, however, under your

7 name?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What other names or what name did you

10 use, if you did not use E. Howard Hunt?

11 A. Let me see. John Baxter, David St. John.

12 I had four of them. They are listed in

13 various reference works. Gordon Davis. And the

14 fourth escapes me. I can produce that, if you

15 require it.

16 Q. If throughout the deposition i t may hit

17 you, just go ahead and blurt i t out.

18 A. All right.

..~1~
20 Company, I also· note from your ~inte·rrogatories that -.1:·_.,, ·: j

21 you served as a part-time consultant for the

22 Executive Offices of the President.

23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. How did that consulting position come
25

. . JJ .
JJ) a.Tes ~
;;J
..
hipano
~'"/,
~

CCFITLFIED Si'"'ClRTHAND Rl:f'ORTERS

 9

2 about?

3 A. It came about through my association with

4 counsel to the President named Charles Colson.

5 ~ Was this a personal friend, or was i t

6 because of your position with Mullem & Co. that this

7 connection came about?

8 A. We were both alumni of the same university.

9 We got to know each other by virtue of alumni work in

10 the Washington, D.C. area after I retired from the

11 CIA. We had a social association.

12 ~ Was this in addition to your position as

13 Creative Vice-president with Mullem Company?

14 A. Yes.

15 ~ Was i t called part-time consultant, was

16 i t part-time work?

17 A. Yes, i t was. Because I put in a full

18 day at Mullem Company and would work at the White

19 House on weekends after 5:00 o'clock .

..
.._ ____,, _
20 Q. Your job at Mullem Company -- I know what

21 your title was, but descriptively, what type of work

22 did you do?

23 A. I arranged, I wrote and made arrangements

24 for television commercials, for brochures; created

25

James J· ·s hipano
CE:RTIFIEO SHORT'"'"NO RE:,.OPTE"IS
 10

2 materials in behalf of clients and arranaed for their

3 translation into one media form or another.

4 Q. Your position with Mullem & Co. ended in

5 June of 1972?

6 A. June 19th, yes.

7 Q. Why was that?

8 A. I was never told, but I assume i t was

9 because of the publicity that emanated from the

10 Watergate affair.

11 Q. Now, sir, going to your position as

12 part-time consultant for the Executive Offices of

13 the President, what types of duties did you have,

14 again generally, as a part-time consultant?

15 Principally when I was brought on board,

16 I was told by Mr. Colson that he wanted me to become

17 the resident expert on the origins of the Vietnam

18 war, and that expanded in due course into other

19
~·~- ..~~'.lo"'<l}'r"'f~::t~.~;.

20 Q. Did you have offices or office space?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Was that in the Executive Office

23 Building?

24 A. In what is known as the old Executive

25

James J· S
C(RTI Fl (D S'"1C R';' "'1 AN 0
hipano
R >::'°0 RT( RS
 11

2 Office Building, yes.

3 Q. Was that the one that is next to the

4 White House?

5 A. Correct.

6 ~ The multistory ugly building?

7 ~ That's the one.

8 ~ Did you have other people that worked

9 with you; did you have a staff?

10 I had no staff. I was associated with

11 other people, yes.

12 Your consulting job initially was to

13 ascertain the origins of the Vietnam War. You said

14 i t evolved into other things. What did i t evolve

15 into?

16 It evolved into an investigative

17 responsibility beginning with the search for those

18 responsible for publication of the so-called

20 Q. That investigation took what form on

21 your part?

22 A. Well, I played a particular role.

n However, the entire White House was mobilized at

24 that particular time by Bud Krogh who headed up a

25

James J· $ hipano
CE:RT1 F"I <:O SH ORT'"" NO "E:PO RT("S
 12

2 unit that included me and in due course became known

3 as a Special Investigation Unit for the White House,

4 and Daniel Ellsberg rapidly became a focus for the

5 investigation.

6 There was input from the Defense

7 Department, from the FBI, the Department of Justice,

8 and all of those related matters were received in

9 our offices.

10 Q, I believe there was actually a break-in

11 to a physician who treated Mr. Ellsberg, is that

12 correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Do you know if that was part of the

15 investigation being performed?

16 A. It was.

17 Q, Did you personally make the decision to

18 have that break-in done?

19 A. No.

W ~ Or were you actually involved in the

21 break-in itself?

22 A. In planning for the break-in, yes.

23 By planning how i t was to be done, when

~ i t was to be done and who was to do it?

25

James J· S hipano
C'ERTlf"l(O SHOR";"Ml<NO RO:f'ORT(R:<
 ··-~

13

2 Yes.

3 Q. You were personally not present in the

4 actual break-in?

5 In the offices of the physician, whose

6 name I can't remember unfortunately, no, I was not

7 present in those offices. I was in the area.

8 Q. In the city? I believe that was in

9 New York someplace?

10 A. No. That was Los Angeles.

11 Q. From that point on, how did your duties

12 as a consultant evolve?

13 A. Following that entry operation, Mr.

14 Gordon Liddy, who was then a full-time employee of

15 the White House, left the White House and assumed

16 duties on the staff of the Committee to Re-Elect

17 the President, which was located approximately across

18 Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House.

19 Due to hi8 association with then Attorney

·. ~¥--~;,_~ •..._- ,~.u-; ;~·'.:.f-' • ...,_...,...,_,...:... ~. -.---,~:_~;.i-;i-i::;.• ..;·...,. -~-::·.r'.<"'ili'·;.c:·_: .. ,.- · - .~;,.-:...,.,,;.::~~ !'o"",....·::;.¢i.4;i'...,.·'fi~ ..·~·

W General John Mitchell and other interested parties,

21 an entry team unit was formed through Mr. Liddy that

ll included myself.

23 How many people were on the entry team?

24 A. There were four men whom I recruited from

25

James J· S
CE:RTI f"I E:D Sr<CRT,._. .o.. ,.,. 0
hipano
R!';l'ORTE'tS
 14

2 the I1iami are a.

3 Mr. Liddy picked up an additional person,

4 security officer for CREP named James McCord and

5 entered him into the team for the entry operation.

6 But I had not known Mr. McCord from the

7 Central Intelligence Agency, nor had Mr. Liddy known

8 him from his previous work from the Bureau.

9 However, he was added through Mr. Liddy

10 to the original entry team whose duties were simply

11 photography.

12 Q. You said you recruited four people from

13 the Miami area. Did you have ties with the Miami

14 area prior to your moving down here some years ago?

15 Well, yes, I did.

16 My father was a lawyer here when I was

17 a child in Fort Lauderdale and Hollywood.

18 I went to schools in this area. I went

19 to····~·-"':"·''
Air• Force OCS in. Miami, . ..
'"?"!"- ~..t· •-~1-· ~~·a·. ' ._,_,... , .... _..;,;_"°""'···· ...~~ ... -."'¥.•f>~ .. -.. ....,-~-.-~~·,...~'•.
.- '": :"~,.~..,.·~-~:.:· ..itj.-'!_::ff-"'-r ··=·*"'~""···.'~ ~-'":.

20 I was posted here for a time by the

21 Central Intelligence Agency in connection with the

22 overthrow of a Marxist regime in 1954; and in l960

23 and, for a time early in 1961, I was posted here in

24 connection with the ill-fated project to overthrow

25

James J· S hipano
CERTlf'lE:P SHOR>;'HANP R£1"0RTl':R:S
 15

2 the Castro Government.

3 ~ Is that the project commonly called

4 Bay of Pigs?

5 Yes.

6 Q. These individuals that you recruited for

7 the entry team, had you known them prior to the

8 recruitment?

9 A. I had only known Bernard Barker who I

10 did work with.

11 Q. And the names of the other three?

12 A. Virgilio Gonzalez. Excuse me. What is

13 Martinez' first name?

14 Anyway, blank Martinez. We will come

15 to that. And a man by the name of Frank Sturgis.

16 Roman do Martinez.

17 Q. These four individuals, yourself and

18 Mr. McCord and Mr. Liddy made up the entry team?

20 Mr. McCord made up the entry team. Mr. Liddy was

21 the directing genius.

22 Q. Your role would have been --

23 A. My role was the recruitment of the

24 individuals, the casing of the target installation
25

Jan1es J· S hipano
CERTIPJE;P SHOA"l"'"' .. ND A(l'DPT(AS
 16

2 and all of the matters that are normally incident to

3 a Government-directed entry into the targeted

4 premises.

5 Q. Moving forward in time in your role as

6 a consultant, how did i t then evolve?

7 A. It then evolved that I saw less and less

8 of Mr. Colson and more and more of Mr. Liddy and

9 Mr. Krogh, and eventually I began seeing nobody but

10 Mr. Liddy.
11 Q. Prior to the one entry we all know so

12 well of, had the entry team performed any functions?

13 A. Yes. We had made a prior entry into

14 the office building, the Watergate office building,

15 which housed the offices of the Democratic National

16
Committee.
17
Q. This was to do what?
18
A. To photograph records, to determine

20
position of Mr. Mitchell -- of whether any illegal
21
contr~butions were being received by Mr. McGovern

22
or the Democratic National Committee in general.
23
Q. Were you physically present?
24
No.
25

James J· $ hipano
CE:RTIF'l.CO SHORTHA.NCl AE:PORT>'.RS
 17

2 Q. Do you know if the team actually had an

3 opportunity to photograph his records at this time?

4 A. They photographed some loose materials,

5 but did not at that time, to the best of my

6 recollection, enter any safe drawers or ledgers of

7 the sort they were seeking where they might have

8 been kept.

9 Q. Did they place any microfilm?

10 A. Yes. Mr. McCord placed, I understand,

11 microfilms and telephone installations.

12 Q. This entry we are talking about now,

13 did you take any role in organizing or planning this

14 entry?

15 A. The first entry?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. What was that role?

19 A. . As I described in connection with the . . .

~-:-,~~i..-.-c·:-~·i;:-z:'~):,=vi;~ ...
-·~~~·~~!·.;;:.-~ ~,:.,~.~~*--".'".~_ ·.._.:·~··>¥ ........, . ,,,.~:;·-.~l""-·· ....~q,~~...... ~..;-~~ ,_, .-.. ·'+}~o-,.::,.;o?.-~;::~~'i;~<r"~';t.-::;rp.;1~,..*. ~'

20 second entry.
21 Q. Case the installation?
22 A. Yes.
23 Did you decide how the entry should be
Q.

24 made?

25 .

James J· S
C!'.:RTI Fl EO S)"+ORT'- ,_ ... 0
hipano
p EPORTt:RS
,

13

2 A. With Mr. McCord, yes.

3 I should explain that Mr. McCord had

4 been a private security officer for Mr. Mitchell,

5 just to get things in context.

6 Mr. Mitchell lived in Watergate, if I'm

7 not mistaken, in the apartment houses which are in

8 the buildings adjacent to the office building, and,

9
therefore, he knew the territory.
10 Q. Did you take any role in serving
11 again using street terms -- as lookout, anything
12
such as that?
13 Yes.
14
Q. The first time?
15
A. Let me see. I can't recall specifically,
16
but generally speaking, yes.
17
Q. Referring to the first entry again, did
18
the team come back and make any report to you as to
19
how it went, what material they obtained, if any?
20
A. Yes, they did.
21
Q. In turn, did you make a report to anyone
22
as to the results of this entry?
23
A. I only made the report to Mr. Liddy.
24
Q. Did you see any material that this team
25 .

James J· S hipano
C>:AT!FIE:O SHOAT'"'""'0 AEf>OATEAS
 19

2 may have obtained in the first entry?

3 A. Yes.

4 As you mentioned, i t consisted of

5 photographs of loose material?

6 Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall about when this first entry

s took place?

9 A. My recollection is that i t was within a

10 three-week period prior to the second entry.

11 Anywhere from 10 days to three weeks.

12 Q. Now, apparently a decision was made for

13 a second entry to take place?

14 A. So I was told, yes.

15 Q. Who informed you of that?

16 A. Mr. Liddy.

17 Q. Again at the risk of being redundant,

18 what role did you take in the second entry?

19 A. Notifying the Miami entry team members

20 to be in Washington on a certain date.

21 I can't recall whether i t was I or

22 Mr. Barker who rented rooms in Watergate Hotel, but

23 rooms were rented there and general arrangements were

24 made to duplicate the first entry.

25

James J· $ hipano
CERTlFJ!':O SHORT>-'-".NO Rf:P'ORTE"tS
 20

2 Q. This entry, the one we are talking about

3 now, is the one that is commonly known as the

4 Watergate break-in?

5 A. Yes, i t is.

6 Q. Do you recall the date the entry took

7 place?

8 A. It was over the night of June 17-18,

9 1972.

10 Q. And again, did you basically serve in

11 the role of casing the installation?

12 A. Casing a second time wasn't necessary

13 actually. The routes· had all been predetermined by

14 the first entry, and we launched the team.

15 Once the team had left the assembly point

16 in the hotel room, Mr. Liddy and I stayed in the

17 hotel room and listened to the walkie-talkie traffic.

18 Q. This was the hotel room that was

19 adjacent or across from

20 A. Adjacent.

21 Q. adjacent to the building itself?

22 A. To the target building.

23 Could you actually make visual contact

24 with the office that was being entered?

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTlFIEO SHORT"'"NO pf';POPTERS
 21

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Rather than belabor the point, because

4 I think the history is pretty well known, something

5 went wrong and the entry team was caught?

6 That's right.

7 Q. Ultimately you yourself were apprehended

8 for this break-in?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. I am incorrect, fine. I am trying to

11
short-circuit too much.
12 When did ypu learn that the team had
13
been apprehended?
14 We saw something of what was going on
A.

15 because we had a line-of-sight contact with windows.

16 We could even see the police in the office building.
17
To answer your question, the answer is,
18
instantaneously.
19
Q. What did you do in response to seeing
20
what was happening?
21
I went across the street to where I had
22
been informed that the McCord l~stening-post was
23
located.
24
He had an employee, Al Baldwin, whom I
25

James J· S hipano
CERTJFIEO S~ORT .. ..,NO R(PORTERS
 22

2 had never seen before, and I told him to pack up and

3 get out.

4 Then I left the area and obtained an

5 attorney to represent me for the five apprehended men.

6 Q. I believe that was in City Court?

7 A. I don't know. I am not familiar with

8 the D.C. system.

9 ~ The attorney did go and represent them

10 at the initial hearing?

11 A. That is my understanding.

12 Q. Again bringing forward your involvement

13 in chronology, if we can, what transpired then as

14 far as you personally were concerned?

15 A. I went home.

16 Q. Did you make any reports to any superiors

17 as to what had transpired?

18 A. Yes. I conferred with Mr. Liddy sometime

19 the next morning, told him that the men now had an

20 attorney, they had bail money if bail was going to be

21 granted, and suggested he do something about the

22 si tua ti on.

23 Did you continue in your role as part-time

24 consultant?

25

James J· S
C:E:RTJFIEC 5HORT"'A. .. 0
hipano
R(PORT( .. 5
,,
23

2 A. I never -- I think I went to the White

3 House that morning to clear out my desk, not my safe

4 but my desk, and never returned to the Executive

5 Office Building.

6 Mr. Liddy met me -- we are talking about

7 Monday the 19th. Mr. Liddy met me sometime later on

8 in the day and told me that his principals suggested

9 that I join my wife and two children in Europe for

10 the balance of the summer.

11 Q. Were your wife and your two children

12 already in Europe?

13 Yes.

14 Did you follow Mr. Liddy's advice?

15 A. I went home and began packing, and while

16 I was packing I got a phone call from Mr. Liddy

17 telling me to cancel the suggestion. So much for

18 that.

19 Q. When did your name, to your knowledge,

20 first publicly become connected with or associated

21 with the Watergate break-in?

22 A. Probably the afternoon of June 19th, 1972.

23 Q. In what way?

24 A. A small address book had been found on

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTIFl>';O $.-<ORT,..,._,...D REf>ORTO:RS
 24

2 the person of Mr. Barker and my name had been found

3 in the address book.

4 Q. When is the first time that any law-

5 enforcement agency or prosecutorial off ice contacted

5 you for either an interview or interrogation?

7 A. My recollection is, i t was late in the

s afternoon of June 19, 1972.

9 Q. Didn't waste any time, did they?

10 Do you recall who contacted you?

11 A. Two gentlemen representing themselves

12 as FBI agents appeared at my door and asked me if

13 they could speak with me.

14 I was at that moment packing. I had

15 been advised by Mr. Liddy and a former Bureau agent

16 to refuse to respond and I.was to have nothing to do

17 with any law-enforcement agency.

18 Q. You were packing for the trip?

19 A. For the trip mentioned.

20 Q. At that time were you still under

21 advisement to travel to Europe?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Subsequently i t was canceled?

24 A. Canceled.

25

James J· $ hipano
 25

2 D Did you speak to these agents?

3 k Only to the extent mentioned.

4 D That you were not going to talk to them

5 voluntarily?

6 k That on advice on counsel.

7 D When was the next contact you had again

8 with a law-enforcement agency of some type?

9 k Probably two or three weeks later, best

10 of my recollection.

11 D During this two or three weeks,

12 basically what were you· doing?

1..,-b 13 k I went to visit an attorney friend of

14 mine in Beverly Hills and stayed there until --

15 lacking an attorney, I was waiting until an attorney
16 had been secured for me in the Washington area before
17 returning and presenting myself to the off ice of the
18 U.S- Attorney.
19 D You voluntarily presented yourself to
20 the U.S. Attorney?
21 k As soon as I retained counsel, yes.
22 D Did there come a time when formal
23
criminal charges of any type were filed against you?
24 k There did.
25

James J· $ hipano
CICRTI Fl f.;0 $HO RT-. ANO Ft f.:/>0RT1".RS
 26

2 Q. ~·lhen vvas that?

3 A. If an arraignment is the episode you are

4 describing, I believe that took place around September

5 18, 1972.

6 Q. Do you recall generally, because quite a

7 bit of time elapsed, what you were charged with at

8 the arraignment?

9 Only to the extent that I assumed I was

10 charged with the same offenses that appeared in

11 Excuse me. Ellis, what would that be,

12 that long document?

13 Q. The indictment?

14 A. The indictment, yes.

15 Q. Were these charges basically stemming

16 out of the Watergate break-in?

17 Yes.
A.

18 Q. During the time from the break-in until

19 the arraignment, basically what were you doing?

20 A. I was staying at home with my wife and

21
family.
22 Q. They had returned from Europe?
23
A. Yes.
24 Any gainful employment?
Q.

25

=] S
J
J·arnes JJJ·
=
hipano
CE:RTJFl£0 SHORT'"'"ND R£POPTE .. S
 -,

27

2 A. i>J 0 .

3 Q. I might want to touch on this now.

4 I note from your income tax returns,

5 and please correct me if I am not right, that certain

6 sums of money were provided you from basically

7 unknown sources for a period of time stemming after

8 the Watergate break-in up until -- I don't know when

9 they stopped.

10 That's correct.

11 ~ Were you at this time receiving sums

12 such as that?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. Basically, so we can have continuity in

15 the record, do you recall when you stopped receiving

16 those sums?

17 A. I would say shortly after the November

18 election 1972.

19 ~ Did they come in the form of cash or

20 checks, do you recall?

21 A. Cash.

22 Q. Were they delivered by anyone?

23 A. Well, again, hearsay. My wife received

24 some sums, she told me. My then attorney received

25

James J· S hipano
C>:RTlFlEO SHCRT"'ANO REPORTER!>
'
28

2 some sums, he told me.

3 Q. I believe you said the arraignment was

4 in September of '72?

5 A. My recollection, mid-September.

6 Q. Were you -- and again, I don't do much

7 criminal work, so bear with me.

s After the arraignment were you booked,

g jailed and bonded, that type of thing?

10 MR. RUBIN: That was all before the

11 arraignment.

12 MR. McGRANE: Was it?

13 MR. RUBIN: Yes.

14 MR. McGRANE: Thank you, Mr. Rubin.

15 At one point I was fingerprinted and I

16 paid $1,000 bond.

17 Q. Were you out on bond from the time you

18 were booked and everything up through the trial?

19 Yes.

20 Q. When did the trial take place?

21 A. It began around the 12th of January 1973.

22 Q. In what city?

23 Washington.

24 Q. Who were the co-defendants?

25

Jan.es J· S hipano
CE!'tT! Fl EO SHORT'"',... NO R EPOFIT'ERS
1

29

2 & There was a whole host of them.

3 I think by then, I think they included

4 Mr. Magruder, some other people in addition to th~

5 seven people already mentioned including myself.

6 I think the indictment was captioned

7 United States vs. Liddy, and i t was McCord, myself,

8 Messrs. Gonzalez, Martinez, Sturgis and Barker.

9 ~ This is not the trial where the

10 individuals directly on the White House staff were

11 tried, is it?

12 No. That took place in the fall of 1974.

13 ~ Did you £nter•a plea relative to the

. 14 charges contained in the indictment?

15 I did. I pled guilty.

16 ~ To all the charges?

17 & To all of the charges.

18 ~ Was this prior to the trial?

19 ~ Arrangements had been made with the U.S.

20 Attorney prior to the trial to plea to a selected

21 :I '"
number of counts.
l

22 f, However, when I entered my p1ea in court,

23
' the court repudiated the agreement, and I pleaded

~ guilty to all counts.

25

JJ
arnes J·=1 S ((r!' hipano

C'E:RTIFIED 51"'0RTHAN0 FtEPORTE;J>:5

 31

2 A. When the final sentence came in. which

3 was the next step, that took place in November. I

4 was sentenced to two and a half to eight years plus

5 $10,000 fine.

6 I ultimately served in two segments

7 about 33 months.

8 Q. Did you have to pay the fine?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know why there was such a disparity

11 between the provisional sentence and the ultimate

12 sentence finally imposed?

13 A. Judge Sirrica likes to say in public that

14 he was required by the law to give the maximum

15 sentence.

16 Q. Did you ever provide any information to

17 the Government regarding your role and the role of

18 the higherups in the Watergate incident?

19 A. I did, almost continuously for a period

20 of years.

21 Q. Was that through the form of testimony?

22 A. Testimony, if you recall, to the Senate,

n the House, the Office of the Watergate Special

24 Prosecutor, the U.S. Attorney. I was constantly being

25

Jan<es J· $
CERTl Fl ED 5HO FtT,_, A.N 0
hipano
R EPOF!T"(RS
.,,

32

2 interrogated d~ring that whole period.

3 Q. The interrogations, were they -- did you

4 appear voluntarily or under subpoena?

5 A. That's hard to say.

6 I think, as a man who was imprisoned,

7 that a subpoena wasn't necessary. If so, they were

8 served on the attorney rather than me.

9 Q. Do you know if, because of the information

10 supplied

11 A. I'm sorry?

12 Q. I'm sorry. I have a tendency to drop off.

13 Do you know if, because of the information

14 you supplied or your cooperation with the investigat-

15 ing bodies, that helped to reduce y:our sentence or

16 ultimately helped in your parole?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You don't know, or i t did not?

19 A. I don't know. And further, I would

20 suggest that my initial sentence stood and I was

21 never granted mi tiga ti on.

22 Q. At what federal penitentiary did you

23 serve time?

24 A.. I served in a variety of jails and

25

J ]J· S
= 111"
arnes hipano
CERTlf"ll;O SHORTH ...... o RErORTERS
 33

2 penitentiaries: Danbury, Connecticut; Allenwood,

3 Pennsylvania; Eglin, Florida; I was briefly in

4 Lewisburg, Pennsylvania; I was in Washington, D.C.

5 Jail; Fairfax County Jail; the Arlington Jail;

6 Montgomery County Jail; Scranton, Pennsylvania Jail.

7 I was to a total of 13 or 14 different

8 places.

9 Q. Was there any rhyme or reason as to why

10 you were moved from institution to institution?

11 A. I believed that i t was harassment.

12 Q. You were discharged from prison finally

13 on what date?

14 A. I believe i t was February 22, 1977.

15 Q. Had your wife, your first wife, Mrs.

16 Hunt, died prior to that date?

17 A. Yes. She was killed in an airplane crash

18 in Chicago in December of 1972.

19 Q. I hope you will excuse me here, I am

20 going to have to go into areas that may be sensitive

21 because .r I 1
m sure you kno;,11, there is a lot of press

n speculation about that accident, and I would like to

23 let you know --

24 A. I understand. I understand.

25

James J· $ hipano
CERTlFIEO S. .. ORTHANO REf'ORT'ERS
 34

2 Q. Do you recall where your wife was going

3 on that flight?

4 A. Yes. She was going to visit her cousin's

5 in the Chicago suburban area, taking Christmas

6 presents to them as she customarily did, and take

7 $10,000 of our money to invest with her cousin's

8 husband who was a principal in a financial group that

9 owned and operated three Holiday Inns in the Chicago

10 area.

11 Q. I believe this was in cash, was i t not?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Have you heard the name Sherman Skolnik?

14 A. I have.

15 Q. In what context?

16 A. As a crippled paranoid who got a new lease

17 on life as a result of the plane crash in Chicago and

18 proceeded to interest himself in my affairs as a

19 result.
20 Q. Did you take any action against Mr.

21 Skolnik?

22 A. Not that I recall.

23 Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Skolnik?

24 A. No.

25

Jarnes J· $ hipano
CERTJFlE:D SHORTHANO A£PORTEAS
"
36

2 Q. You were still incarcerated?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where was that?

5 A. At Eglin What is i t called? The

6 federal work camp at Eglin.

7 Q. How did you come about meeting her?

8 A. She was a teacher in Albany, Georgia,

9 and she had four or five students who were children

10 of a family that she had been close to in Albany,

11 and the father fell afoul of the law and was

12 incarcerated in the same prison I was.

13 She came down to share the driving burden

14 with his wife, and in the visiting area I just met

15 her.

16 Q. That culminated in your getting married

17 a little over a year later?

18 A. Yes, about 18 months later.

19 Q. Upon your discharge, where did you then

20 live?
21 A. Returned to my present home.

22 Q. In Miami?

23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I forgot how long you've owned that home.

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RT1f"IEO SHORTH,..NO F>EPORT"(R:S
 37

2 A. Since July 1974.

3 Q. So the home was purchased while you were

4 incarcerated?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Prior to your being incarcerated?

7 A. No. I think -- I don't want to be

8 captious and delay proceedings.

9 My initial term of imprisonment, I was in

10 for 10 months. I came out on appeal. I was out on

11 appeal for 14 months.

12 During that period of time I sold my home

13 in Maryland and bought a home down here and I stayed

14 in it until I was brought back to prison in May 1975.

15 Q. Thank you. That saves us some time.

16 Upon your being discharged from prison

17 did you take any steps to reestablish yourself

18 employmentwise?

19 A. I didn~t seek a 9:00 to 5:00 job, if

20 that's what you mean, no.

21 Q. Did you attempt to make arrangements to

22 earn income other than your pension from the CIA?

23 A. Yes. I was approached by a lecture

~ bureau and I made a number of lectures in that

25

James J· S hipano
CERTJFIEO SHORT HANO REPOR"TER:S
'
38

2 connection in the early part of 1977.

3 ~ What lecture bureau was that?

4 A. The American Program Bureau.

5 ~ Were these basically college lectures?

6 A. Yes.

7 ~ How much did you charge per lecture?

8 A. It varied.

9 ~ So I can get some type of an idea --

10 A. These things varied, based on distance,

11 on sequence of lectures, bookings. If you have two

12 in one day, then i t is less for each audience.

13 ~ Was there an arrangement?

r
14 There was an arrangement. I would say

15 between $1,000 and $2,500.

16 ~ For how long a period of time did you

17 . stay in the lecture circuit, so to speak?

18 A. Through the end of the school year 1977.

19 ~ You then at that time stopped giving

20 lectures?

21 A. No. That was sort of a circuit. I gave

22 a few lectures thereafter.

23 ~ Did there come a time when you stopped

24 giving lectures entirely?

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTlflEO SHORTM..,NO REPORTERS
r-:----··
rttt :~

40

2 or dried uo?

3 A. No. Because i t so happened that,

4 coincidentally, there was a shakeup in the personnel

5 of the lecture bureau. They fired their accountant,

6 fired several of the account executives and so forth,

7 and the people that I was dealing with simply ceased

8 to exist.

9 Q. This was in 1977?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What month was that?

12 A. I think the shakeup in the lecture

13 bureau took place over the summer of 19 7 7.

14 Q. You never received any bookings after

15 that?

16 A. Through them, no.

17 Q. Did you make arrangements through another

18 lecture agency of some type?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. Did you ever have any lectures after that

21 time?

22 A. I believe I lectured in the fall. I

n lectured for free at the Harvard Law School, and in

~ November, for free at the Yale Political Union.

25

James J· S hipano
C::ERTIFIEO S!"<ORTHAMO REl'ORTERS
 41
2 ~ November of what?

3 A. 1977.

4 ~ Any lectures after that time?

5 k I had a strong prospect of a booking I

6 believe in 19 last year i t was to have been.

7 This was arranged previously, not through

8 the lecture bureau. I was given to understand that

9 their interest in me dwindled as a direct result of

10 the allegations contained in the Spotlight article.

11 ~ This lecture was to have been where?

12 k It was to have been in Nevada.

13 Q. With whom?
l
14 & It was an association of heavy machinery,

15 farm machinery dealers from Northern California that

16 were having their annual meeting in Reno.

17 ~ Who contacted you for that lecture?

18 k The secretary of their association.

19 ~ What is the secretary's name?

20 I don't have i t . I didn't bring i t .

21 ~ How much were you to be paid?

22 k I was to be paid $750 plus expenses for

23 a luncheon talk.
24 ~ What date was that lecture to have been?

25

James J· S hipano
C:ERTl>"lEO SHORTH,.,ND f!El"ORTERS
~--.-··

'
42

2 I don't recall. Let me think. Let me

3 reflect for just a moment.

4 Q. Sure.

5 A. My recollection is that it was to have

6 been late in 1979. By late I mean late October,

7 November, around there.

8 ~ Ultimately this lecture arrangement fell

9 through?

10 A. Yes.

11 ~ Did anyone specifically say, ''Well,

12 Mr. Hunt, we would like to have you but we are not

13 going to have you becausen -- and gave you a reason?

-····
i
14 Yes. A former officer of the association

15 did.

16 ~ Who was that?

17 A. His name is George Alcock.

18 ~ How do you spell that?

19 A. A-1-c-o-c-k.

20 ~ Do you know where Mr. Alcock lives?

21 A. He lives in Northern California, I

22 think why take a guess. I have i t at home. I

23 don't have his address with me.

24 Q. Specifically what did he tell you?

25

Jan1es J· $ hipano
CO::RTlf"IEO SHORTMANO Rl':PORTl".R:<
 43

2 A. After the association arrangements had

3 fallen through, Mr. Alcock telephoned me and indicated

4 that the renewed speculation about the role that I

5 might have played in the Kennedy assassination was

6 responsible for the cancellation.

7 Q. Did he tell you from what source he

8 obtained the renewed-speculation?

9 A. No, he did not.

10 But the only renewed speculation at that

11 time came in and as a result of the Spotlight article.

12 Everything else was very quiet on that front.

13 Q. We are talking about the latter part of

14 1979?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could he have been referring to the

17 Weberman-Canfield article?

18 A. I'm sorry?

19 Q. I believe Mr. Weberman published a book --

20 A. In 1975.

21 Q. And you have a lawsuit pending against

22 Mr. Weberman, do you not?

23 A. That's correct. I think i t was filed

24 in 19 7 6.

25

James J· $ hipano
CERTIFIED S.1-iORTH.._,..0 RE"ORTERS
I•

44

2 Q. Basically the lawsuit against Mr.

3 Weberman and Mr. Canfield is basically the same as

4 against Liberty Lobby and Spotlight?

5 k I would have to defer you to counsel

6 about that. It is a libel suit.

7 Q. At least part of the libel suit stems

s from a chapter of their book dealing with the

9 speculation as to who the "three tramps'' were in

10 Dallas, Texas?

11 ~ Well, I think the entire book is salted

12 with many references to me, many innuendoes by libels

13 concerning my home.

14 Q. Including among them the speculation that

15 you were one of the three tramps?

16 That was one of many of them.

17 Q. In all fairness, I am asking you to

18 simplify a whole lawsuit with a few words, and I

19 know i t ' s very difficult, concerning Weberman.

20 Other than this one lecture we have

21 talked about, the heavy machinery, were there any

22 other lectures or contracts that you had that

23 terminated or lectures not held since the termination

24 of your relationship with the original lecture company?

25

James J· $ hipano
CE:RTIFl!:O SHORTH,.,NO AE:PORT!:RS
 45

2 A. No.

3 Q. If we could talk generally about business

4 opportunities, and that would be anything where you

5 would have financial gain or renumeration, are there

6 any losses that you claim are a result of the article

7 published in the Spotlight?

8 A. My answer to that has to be that I am

9 claiming libel per se which assumes damages.

10 Q. I understand that, Mr. Hunt.

11 I am asking specifically about loss of

12 income, if any.

13 I am prepared to answer that question.

14 My view, and this is a supported one, is

15 that I have not been offered publishing contracts,

16 and I have not been offered personal appearance

17 contracts because of this renewed speculation

18 concerning my possible role in the Kennedy

19 assassination.

20 Rumor has i t -- in fact, one agency said

21 to me very clearly, he said, "They won't touch you

22 with a 10-foot pole."

23 Q. Who was that?

24 A. That agent was Mr. Donald Mccampbell in

25

James J· S hipano
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO RE,-ORT!'.RS
r;-------
:t. ~

46

2 New York City.

3 Q. Who does he work for?

4 He has his own literary agency.

5 Q. When did he tell you that?

6 I am trying to think of .the context. I

7 think i t was late in 1978.

8 By that time I had another literary agent

9 who told me he was finding resistance on the New York

10 literary market for the same reason, the continual

11 reference to Hunt's possible connection to the

12 Kennedy assassination.

13 Watergate has nothing to do with any of

14 this. All you have to do is look at my successes

15 after Watergate. That has nothing to do with it.

16 The Kennedy assassination has.

17 Q. You said there was some support to the

18 fact that you were not offered personal appearance

19 contracts or lecturing contracts because of renewed

20 speculation of your involvement in the Kennedy

21 assassination ..

22 For something to be renewed, that assumes

23 that there were at least two separate instances or

24 three or four or five that were concerning that topic.

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTIFIEO SHORTHANO REPORTERS

•
 47

2 We know about the Weberman book published,

3 I believe you said, in 1975?

4 A. 1975.

5 Q. I am curious, has anyone told you

6 specifically that the failure for you to be offered

7 publishing contracts and the failure for you to be

a offered personal appearance contracts stems from

9 their learning of any allegations concerning you and

10 the Kennedy assassination arising out of the

11 publication of the article in Spotlight?

12 A. I have to answer this way, that the

13 preponderance of the evidence is this: That when

14 the Rockefeller Commission completed its findings

15 and I was exonerated when the final report of the

16 House Assassination Committee was concluded, at that

17 time there was no possible speculation between my

18 possible role in the Kennedy assassination between

19 that period and the publication of the Spotlight

20 article.

21 At that time, to my knowledge, there was

22 nothing that had surfaced or that appeared publicly

n to renew this libelous speculation.

24 During that period of time were you

25

James J· $ hipano
CERTIFIED SHORTH.o,NO RE>'ORTl':R:S.
 48

2 offered any publishing contracts?

3 A In early 1978 I secured one publishing

4 contract.

5 Q. With whom?

6 A The firm of Stein & Day.

7 Q. And published what?

8 A A book.

9 Q. Entitled what?

10 A The Hargraves Deception.

11 Q. Did you receive any personal appearance

12 contracts during that time?

13 A No, I did not.

i
14 Q. From the time the article was published
15 in the Spotlight up until today, have you published
16 anything?.
17 A. The book I mentioned came out, but I have
2-a
18 - published nothing else.
19 Q. Have you written any books since that
20 time?_
21 A Yes, I have.
22 Q. Have you submitted them for publication?
23 A Yes, I have.
24 Q.. To whom?
25

James J· S hipano
C£RTIFIE;0 SHORTHA.NO REPOJITl!:RS
 49

2 To my literary agent in New York.

3 Q. This gentleman that you mentioned

4 previously?

5 No. To the firm of Scott Meredith.

6 Q. When did you submit your last book?

7 Last March.

8 Q. '8l?

9 Yes.

10 Q. Have you heard from them?

11 That has been rejected.

12 Q. By whom?

13 By probably 15 or 20 firms.

14 I think I can shorten this a little bit.

15 I wrote one, two, three -- I have three unsold

16 manuscripts in my files right now that have made the

17 rounds in New York, that were written and offered

18 subsequent to the Spotlight publication.

19 Q. Have you ever offered a manuscript

20 previously that was not accepted?

21 A. I don't think I ever did, no. I have a

22 long history of successful publishing.

23 Q. What name- did you use as the author of

24 The Hargraves Deception?

25

James)· S hipano
CE:RTlf"IEC 5HORTHA/'i0 R£PORT-.;RS
I,

so

2 My own name.

3 Q. E. Howard Hunt?

4 Yes.

5 Q. How about the other three manuscripts?

6 Yes.

7 Q. Has anyone specifically told you why

8 these three manuscripts were rejected?

9 In general, my literary agent, my then

10 literary agent indicated that the Kennedy connection

11 with Hunt loomed insurmountably large in the eyes and

12 minds of the New York literary community.

13 And this is certainly true of the reprint

14 rights, which is where the money is.

15 The liberals we find are willing to

16 overlook Watergate. They are not willing to take a

17 chance on somebody publicly and extensively

18 association by the media with the Kennedy assassina-

19
tion.
20 Q. If I may, when did you submit The Hargraves

21 Deception manuscript?
22 A. My recollection is I submitted i t sometime

23 in 1978.
24 Q. When did you enter into a contract for its

25 .

James)·$ hipano
CERTJFIE;O SHORTH ... ND RO:PORTERS
h;---~

1 51

2 publication?

3 & About nine months later, eight or nine

4 months later.

5 Q. What year?

6 & 1979.

7 ~ Sir, do you know the name of any

8 individual who specifically told you that the reason

9 you were not being offered a contract either for

10 publication or personal appearance contract was

11 because of the article in the S~otlight whic~ is

12 the subject of this lawsuit?

13 & Specifically with regard to Spotlight,

~-

14 no.

15 ~ Now, we will back up just a little bit

16 and go into the whole topic of the Kennedy

17 assassination involvement.

18 When was the first time you heard that

19 anyone was speculating that E. Howard Hunt was

20 involved, was either involved or present in Dallas

21 on the day that President Kennedy was assassinated?

22 A. I think that charge was initially

23 surfaced by Dick Gregory sometime in 1974.

24 ~ That is the comedian, public-speaking

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTI Fl ED 51"<0 RT'"' .-.r< O REPORTERS
I,
52

2 advocate?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That same person?

5 A. Yes.

6 How did you hear about that?

7 A. It appeared in the press across the

8 country.

9 Did you take any action in reference to

10 Mr. Gregory making those comments?

11 No, because they were within bounds. He

12 cloaked his phrases very cleverly.

13 As i t turned out, he was acting as a

14 witting or unwitting advanceman for the Weberman

15 book.

16 Q. When was the next time you heard of

17 comments or allegations that E. Howard Hunt was

18 either involved in the Kennedy assassination. or was

19 present in Dallas during those times?

20 A. Well, i t became fairly continuous after

21 that period.
22 I went back to prison in '75 and was

23 there through '77. I think articles appeared here

24 and there in magazines of greater or lesser repute

25

James J· $ hipano
CERT!f'IE;D SHORTHA.ND REPORT?:RS
.,

53

2 in the United Statei, until finally, I think 1977 if

3 I am not mistaken, Time Magazine ran a special on

4 which they had retained their own forensic specialists

5 to look into the matter and concluded there was no

6 connection between Hunt and the Kennedy assassination.

7 Q. What year was the Time article?

8 A. I believe i t was '77.

9 Counsel has a copy of the article, but

10 i t ' s not here.

11 Q. The Time article?

12 A. Yes.
13 In any event, the point being, that this
14 was a drawing together of all of the threads from the

15 past examining everything that had been alleged and

16 finally exculpating me among others.

17 Really, from that time on there was no

18 speculation until the Spotlight article appeared,

19
which astonished me.
20 I'd like to ask you a couple of questions
Q.

21 on some points that you brought out earlier.

22 You said that because of this speculation
23
you were called before or invited to testify at
24 various investigatory bodies?
25

James J· S hipano
CERTIFIED :SHORT>-<,1..NQ REPORTt:RS
 54

2 A. I don't think I ever made such a

3 statement.

4 Q. I thought you said that you testified

5 at the Kennedy Assassination Committee.

6 A. I'm sorry, I didn't.

7 Q. Have you ever been called to testify

s before any body that was investigating the

9 assassination of President Kennedy?

10 A. By "called," are you implying issuance

11 of subpoenas?

12 Q. No. Invited, asked to attend, or where

13 you voluntarily said "I want to testify."

14 A. These are two different matters.

15 Q. Have you ever testified before any body

16 investigating the assassination of President Kennedy?

17 A. I made a voluntary appearance at my own

18 insistence before the House Committee on

19 Assassinations.

20 Q. When was that? I don't need the exact

21 date.
22 A. I don't know. It was since I have been

23 out of prison.
24 Q. Before the publication of the Spotlight

25

James J· S hipano
CE:l'!Tlf"IEO SHO,,.TM,&,r<O REPORT"ERS
. r;

55

2 article?

3 A. My recollection is that i t was, yes.

4 Q. Was this a Eouse committee or a Senate

5 committee?

6 A. House committee.

7 If you recall, there was a good deal of

8 publicity attendant upon those hearings, nationally

9 televised.
10 Mine was with some of the assistant

11 investigators before the committee. Mr. Rubin

12 appeared with me as counsel.

13 Q. How long did you testify?

14 A. Two or three hours.

15 Q. Was there a record made of that testimony?

16 A. Yes, there was. Well, I assume that

17 there was, since i t was an official body.

18 Q. Do you recall if a reporter was present?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know if your suit against Mr.

21 Weberman had already been filed?

22 A. Oh, yes.

23 Q. Were there any other bodies that you

24 testified before concerning the Kennedy assassination?

25

James J· S hipano
C£RT1f'IEO SHORTHANO RE:PORTI'.RS
 56

2 A. 11
Testified 11 is a restrictive word.

3 At my request, I conferred with the chief

4 counsel for the Rockefeller Committee, which was

5 simply an office conversation following which I

6 produced 13 or 14 photographs of myself taken in 1963

7 for forensic examination by the committee.

8 Q. Did you ever receive a report from them

9 or a letter from them regarding their findings?

10 A. I didn't, personally.

11 Their findings were contained in the

12 report that was issued by the so-called Rockefeller

13 Commission which was about 1975, I would think.

14 Q. was any reference in that report made to

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When did. you first become aware of the

18 article in the Spotlight?

19 Probably within a week of its publication.

A.

20 Q. How did you become aware of it?

21 A. I think some people had called Mr. Rubin's

22 law office, i t being widely known that he represents
23 me in this area, and I received a mail copy from
24 somebody on the West Coast, and then somebody in Fort
25

James J· S hipano
CERTlFIE:O S1-<0RT,_.l".,...O .. EPORTO:RS
 57

2 Lauderdale sent me another copy.

3 Do you recall the names of any of these

4 people?

5 A. One individual is named George Gay who

6 lives in Naples, Florida.

7 Q. Is Mr. Gay a friend of yours?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You have known him for a while?

10 A. We flew together on Guadalcanal; and

11 since 1942, to be more specific.

12 As I recall, the second copy came to me

13 through some well-wisher in the Fort Lauderdale area.

14 Q. Do you know if Mr. Gay subscribes to

15 Spotlight?

16 A. I believe he does not.

17 It was referred to him by a neighbor who
18 knew that we were friends.
19 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone concerning
20 this article who subscribes to Spotlight in the State
21 of Florida?
22 A. Well, I have to say that I don't know
23
who subscribes to Spotlight in the State of Florida.
24 Has anyone ever told you that they saw
25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTlFJ£Cl SHORTH"MO R'(PORT'f;RS
 58

2 this article and obtained a copy of i t within the

3 State of Florida?

4 A. Yes. Mr. Gay did.

5 Q. Did he purchase that copy?

6 A. I believe I answered that in a prior

7 question which was to this effect: that the article

8 was -- that a copy of Spotlight Magazine was given to

9 Mr. Gay by a friend or neighbor or somebody he knew

10 who knew that Mr. Gay and I had been friends of many

11 years' standing.

12 Q. Do you know how this friend or acquaint-

13 ance of Mr. Gay obtained copies of it?

14 A. Yes. He was a subscriber to Spotlight.

15 Q. Does he subscribe within the State of

16 Florida?

17 A. Yes. The.same is true with the Fort

18 Lauderdale person who sent a copy to Mr. Rubin's

19 office for me.

20 Q. You don't know the name of the person

21 in Fort Lauderdale?
22 A. Well, I believe -- I don't know whether

23 his name was on the mailing label or not.

24 I think in one of our copies of the

25

Jan.es J· $ hipano
C£RT1FIEO SHORTHAND RE:PORTERS
 59

2 magazine we have the mailing label intact from the

3 West Coast.

4 Q. West Coast of Florida?

5 West Coast of Florida.

6 Q. Do you know Victor Marchetti?

7 A. I have seen Mr. Marchetti at a deposition

8 on one occasion.

9 Q. Mr. Marchetti is a former employee of the

°
1 CIA?
11 A. So I understand.

12 Q. Did you know him or know of him while you

13 and he were both employed by the CIA?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know of his reputation as a former

16 employee of the CIA?

17 A. Only insofar as I have become generally

18 familiar with the details of the Government lawsuit

19 against Mr. Marchetti for his violation against the

20 secrecy oath in connection with his publication of

21 the book entitled The Cult Of Intelligence.

22 Q. What have you learned of Mr. Marchetti's

23 reputation?
24 A. More recently I have seen an article to

25 .

James J· $ hipano
CERT\ Fl EC S!-<ORTHA.,_.D REl'"ORTERS
 60

2 the effect that he now wishes he had never published

3 the book.

4 Q. Now, through your attorney you listed

5 certain individuals who have knowledge concerning

6 certain allegations contained in your complaint and

7 I would like to discuss them individually, if I may.

8 You have listed Richard Helms as an

9 individual who will testify in your behalf that the

10 article contained in Spotlight is a sheer fabrication

11 of the defendant. Have you talked to Mr. Helms

12 specifically about this article?

13 Not personally, but I believe that came

14 up in connection with the deposition which my

15 attorney Mr. Rubin was present in Washington sometime

16 ago.
17 In the Weberman case?
18 A. That was the Weberman case, yes.
19 The same is true with Mr. Angleton.
20 Q. I think you know where I am going, but
21 for the record I would like to go through them one
22 at a time.·
23
A. Go ahead.
24 Q. James Angleton is listed, as well. The
25

J arnes J·J ) ~
hipano
CERTIFIE;O SHORTHAND REPORTERS
 61

2 same question concerning Mr. Angleton.

3 A. Yes.

4 ~ You have not specifically talked to him

5 about the article?

6 & I never have.

7 ~ David Atlee Phillips, have you talked

8 to Mr. Phillips concerning the Spotlight article?

9 & I haven't talked with him.

10 I believe that after filing this action

•. \ 11 I informed Mr. Phillips, who has also been questioned

12 from time to time about Lee Harvey Oswald, about my

13 action against Liberty Lobby; but I have never

14 specifically talked with him.

15 ~ You have listed the Director of Personnel.

16 Do you know the actual identity of the Director of

17 Personnel?
18 & Not at the present time, no.
19 ~ Have you talked with anyone in the . . personnel ·
20 office at the CIA concerning the allegations of this
21 complaint?
22 & Inasmuch as there are a lot of CIA people
23 listed here, let me say that I have not personally
24 spoken with anybody in the Central Intelligence Agency
25 .

James J· S hipano
C:ERTlFIEDSHORTH"'NO REl'ORTEl'tS
 62

2 since probably early 1973.

3 Q. Again, I specifically want to keep the

4 record clear, that would include Richard Riniger?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How about Robert S. Young?

7 A. I have never talked with him.

8 Who is Walter P. Kuzmuk?

9 A. A retired Central Intelligence Agency

10 officer.

11 Q. Have you talked to Mr. Kuzmuk about this

12 case?

13 A. I don't believe I have.

14 Q. Why is Mr. Kuzmuk listed as a person

15 with knowledge of the falsity of this article?

16 A. Because Mr. Kuzmuk is one of the people

17 who can testify with regard to where I was on the

18 day that Mr. Kennedy was killed.

19 Q. Who is Connie Joy Hicks Mazerov?

20 A. A former Central Intelligence Agency

21 employee who can testify under oath as to my location

n on the day President Kennedy was killed.

23 Sir, I assume you have read the article

~ in question a few times?

25

James)· Shipano
C.ERTlf"IE;O SHORTHAND RE"ORTl!:>tS
[
'
63

2 & I read i t at least once, yes.

3 Q Have you read i t recently?

4 & No.

5 Q What is your understanding as to what

6 the article says?

7 & May I confer with counsel?

8 Q. Sure.

9 & I think we ought to let the record

10 reflect that I am examining a photocopy of the article

11 in question.

12 Q. Please.

13 & As soon as I saw a copy of this article,

I
~·-·-·

14 I was extremely mortified and distressed to hear in

15 1978, after all the exculpations by the top

16 investigative bodies in the United States Government,

17 that I was again being accused by Spotlight Magazine

18 and a CIA renegade of the most heinous crime of the

19 American century, to-wit: the assass·ination of

20 President John F. Kennedy.

21 Q Excuse me, if I can interrupt briefly.

22 Where in that article are you accused of being

23 involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?

24 A. The whole article, according to my

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTIFIEO Sl-<ORTH.&.l'ID REPORTERS
.,
.. 1

6 .j

2 p5rception, read by any reasonably intelligent person,

'
3 indicates from its very CIA to nail Hunt for

4 Kennedy killing.

5 The article does not say, despite Hunt's

6 innocence, proven innocence, the CIA is going to

7 attempt to nail Hunt for the Kennedy assassination.

8 The article just says that the CIA was

9 going to attempt to nail Hunt. "CIA to admit Hunt

10 involvement in Kennedy slaying," which means that

11 somebody on the staff of Spotlight Magazine believes

12 that indeed the CIA is going to admit my involvement

13 in the Kennedy slaying. That is another lead.

14 ''Chief amon~ those to be exposed by the

15 new investigation will be E. Howard Hunt -- his luck

16 has run out."

17 Again, Hunt's "alibi for his whereabouts

18 On the day of the shooting has become unstuck."

19 They repeat -- the article repeats words

20 from Weberman and Canfield, from their book, Coup

21 D'Etat In America, "Weberman and Canfield investigated

22 the new alibi and found that the grocery store where
23 Hunt claimed to be shopping never existed. At this
24 point, Hunt offered to drop his suit for a token
25

James J· S hipano
C.ERT!FICO S><ORT><A.NO R£PORTl':RS
.~ .·?I r'
,..
-:;
65

2 payment of one dollar." A lie.

3 "But the authors were determined to

4 vindicate themselves, and they continued to attack

5 Hunt's alibi, ultimately completely shattering it."

6 Another lie.

7 ''Will not dare to speak out." Another

8 lie. And so on.

9 I couldn't believe that anybody in his

10 right mind would print such libelous trash.

11 ~ Sir, is there any specific allegation in

12 that article

13 A. That is true?

14 Q. No, sir.

15 A. Excuse me.

16 ~ I didn't ask that question.

17 Is there any specific allegation in that

18 article wherein you are accused by the author of the

19 article of being involved in the Kennedy assassina-

20 ti on?

21 A. I refer you to the headlines -- CIA To

22 Nail Hunt For Kennedy Killing.

23 ~ That says that the CIA is going to nail

24 you.

25

Jarnes J· S hipano
 66

2 Is there anything where the author of the

3 article says that you were involved in the Kennedy

4 assassination?

5 A. Well, I don't know, sir, what the author

6 wrote and what the editorial staff may have written.

7 But I say

8 Q. Let me ask you this question: Is there

9 anything in that article where i t indicates that

10 anyone other than the CIA is indicating that you were

11 involved in the Kennedy assassination?

12 A. Certainly. The references to Weberman

13 and Canfield.
r-··-
14 Q. Let me ask my question again: Is there

15 anything in that article that indicates that anyone,

16 other than the CIA and Weberman and Canfield, is

17 accusing you of being involved in the Kennedy

18 assassination?

19 A. It says that the House Special Committee

20 on Assassinations will investigate -- I am summarizing

21 here.
22 Then there is a small lead: "They'll

23 Hang Hunt."

24 "Chief among those to be exposed by the

25

James J· $ hipano
CE:RTlf"IEO 5HORTHANO REPORTl':RS
 67

2 new investiqation,' 1 and that is the House investiga-

3 tion, ''will be E. Howard Hunt."

4 What does ''exposed'' mean? 11

Exposed 11
in

5 the context of the two lead lines means exposed as

6 the assassin of John F. Kennedy.

7 Now, whether Mr. Marchetti wrote that or

8 whether that was added by the editorial staff, I

9 can't say. We will find out in due course.

10 ~ Sir, since your return to Miami, .have you

11 joined any social clubs?

12 A. I joined one.

13 Q. What club was that?

14 A. It's called the Palm Bay Club.

~.

15 ~ Are you still a member of the Palm Bay

16 Club?

17 A. No, I am not.
18 Q. When did you terminate your membership
19 in the Palm Bay Club?
20 A. A few weeks ago.
21 ~ Why was that?
22 A. I belonged to i t for a long time and
23 wasn't getting enough out of i t to validate the cost.
24 ~ Have any social relationships been

25

James J· S hipano
C£RT\l"lt:O SHORTHA.NO REPORTERS
 68

2 terminated because of the article published in

3 Spotlight?

4 A. Some social relationships have become

5 strained, but not terminated, no.

6 a Specifcally which ones?

7 Friends have indicated doubts in their

8 minds about me, about my involvement with the Kennedy

9 assassination.

10 Could you name some?

11 I know that my wife's associates in

12 Albany, Georgia were very much upset by this.

13 a could you name specifically some of these

14 people?

15 A. I can't, but I imagine my wife can. I

16 haven't discussed this aspect with her.

17 She was shocked by the appearance of the

18 article, and again, i t was one of those things, how

19 do you prove a negative to your wife? You have to do

20 i t by proving that you were not where your accuser

21 said you were.

22 But the strains of the social and

23 familial ·relationships as a result of this article

24 were increased.

25

James J· S hipano
CERTIFIED Sl'<ORTHANO RE:l'ORTl'.RS
..,

69

2 Q. Specifically how?

3 & Being queried by my adult children, by

4 my wife ''Is there any truth in this? Why would

5 they say this? How can they print t~is if i t ' s not

6 true?"

7 It's a very heavy psychological burden

8 for me to carry, for any man to carry.

9 Q. Can you name specifically any social

10 relationship that has been terminated or diminished

11 in intensity because. of this article?

12 k Well, I know that I haven't heard from

13 George Gay since the article was published, since he

('-
14 sent me a copy of it.
15 Q. Have you contacted Mr. Gay since he sent
16 you a copy?
17 k No, I haven't.
18
Q. He might be waitin.g for you to write
19 first.
20 k Well, what can I say?
21 Obviously, he wouldn't have sent i t to
22 me unless he thought there was something to it.
23
Q. Did you call him in response to receiving
24 the article?
25

,J· $
JJ
=
arnes hipano
CE .. Tlf"!EO 5HORTHAN0 REf'Of'TERS
.,
70

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Mr. Hunt, aside from personal appearances

4 and publishing, have you attempted to earn money

5 though any other outlet since your release from

6 prison?

7 A. I can't think of any. Could you suggest-~

8 Q. I note on your income tax you list

9 yourself as a writer and a painter.

10 A. Oh, yes, yes. I had a couple of art

11 exhibits in 1977 and 1978, sold some paintings there.

12 Any since then?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you still paint?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why did you stop painting?

17 A. Because there was apparently no market

18 for my paintings.

19 Q. Any special reason that there was no

20 market, that you know of?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In your opinion, is i t related to this

23 article in any way?

24 A. If No, i t can't be related to this

25

James J· S
C:E;RTlf"IEO SHORTH.-._ .. o
hipano
l'IEPORTf:RS
 71

2 article, but i t certain relates to the Gregory-

3 Weberman type of thing.

4 [Thereupon, a short recess was taken

5 after which the following proceedings continued:]

6 ~ Mr. Hunt, again I am making reference to

7 your income tax returns, if you want to look at them.

8 Go ahead. I don't like to look at them.

9 ~ Your last return, your 1980 return,

10 listed, I will call i t "other income" and "profit or

11 loss from business or profession," the amount of

12 $17,583. From what sources is this other income?

?-a 13 A. Isn't i t indicated on some other

14 attachment?
15 ~ I sure didn't see it.

16 A. A $17,000 figure is certainly something

17 that should be usually itemized.
18 ~ It just says ''gross receipts or sales."
19 A. For the year 1980?
20 ~ Yes, sir.
21 A. That would have to be royalties.
22 Without looking at my accountant's notes,
23
I couldn't tell you.
24 What page are you referring to, sir?
25

James J· S hipano
CERTI Fl ED SHO RTH ,&,NO R EPO "TERS
1
-,
•
'
72

2 I ' l l show i t to you. Here i t is.

11
3 k 11
Gross receipts or sales.

4 ~ I think you are back on 1979 now.

5 A. Am I?

6 I ' l l have to say that that represents

7 royalties.

8 ~ Would they be for books that were

9 published previously?

10 A. Yes.

11 ~ Do you have any present writing projects

12 under way?

13 A. No.
r-
14 ~ Is your wife employed?

15 A. No.

16 ~
'
Basically and generally, what do you do

17 to keep yourself occu~ied?

18 A. I share in housekeeping duties, clean

19 the swimming pool.

20 ~ Anything else? Any hobbies?

21 A. Scuba diving, a little fishing, maintain-

22 ing contact with a far-flung family.

23 ~ Do you serve in any capacity, either

24 formally or informally, presently, with the CIA?

25

James J- S hipano
CERTIFIEO SHORT .... ANO R(PORTER!i
I·
I

73

2 No.

3 Q. Do you provide advice or consultation

4 to anyone presently involved with the CIA?

5 I ' l l say no, but I talk with a lot of

6 people, and who is to say who is involved with the

7 CIA?

8 But I am not aware that I am providing

9 any advice or consultive services formally or

10 informally with anybody who has a current connection

11 with The Agency.

12 Q. You have had, using my descriptive term,

13 a friendly relationship with William F. Buckley --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- for some number of years?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It goes back to, I believe, when you were

18 in Hexico?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. And you were his, I guess, adviser to

21 him?

22 A. Well, I was his superior in The Agency.

23 Q. And that warm relationship continues

24 up until today, does i t not?

25

James J· S
C£RTLf"1£0 SHORTMA .. 0
hipano
Rl'.:PORT-.:'.RS
 74

2 A. I would say basically, yes.

3 Prior to today, did you have knowledge

4 that he and Liberty Lobby are involved in litigation?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you ever advised Mr. Buckley that

7 you are involved in litigation with Liberty Lobby?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know Willis Carte?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Prior to this litigation had you ever

12 heard of Willis Carta?

13 A. I had.

14 Q. In what way?

15 A. As a virulent Semite.

16 Q. How did you hear about Mr. Carto?

17 A. Well, over a period of years, I suppose,

18 when reference was made to the fanatic freaks located

19 around Washington, D.C., I heard of Willis Carto.

20 It's an unusual name. Tucked i t away in

21 my memory bank. I can't recall any specific story or

22 article.

23 Q. Did you ever discuss Mr. Carte with Mr.

24 Mr. Buckley?

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RTlFJEO 5H0f<THAN0 R(PORT"(RS
 75

2 A. 1'10 .

3 Q. Prior to this litigation had you ever

4 heard of Fleming Lee?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Prior to this investigation had you ever

7 heard of Bernard Deremer?

8 A. Bernard who, sir?

9 Q. D-e:-r-e-m-e-r.

10 A. No.

11 Q. James Paul Tucker?

12 A. No.

13 Could you give me a clue as to who these

14 people are?

15 Q. These are individuals your attorney has

16 noticed for deposition in Washington.

17 A. Oh, all rig.ht.

18 Q. Again, prior to this litigation had you

19 ever heard of Victor Marchetti?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In what way?

22 A. As I mentioned earlier, in connection

23 with the publication of the book that he co-authored,

24 The Cult Of Intelligence, and the subsequent

25

James J· S hipano
C'ERTlFJEP SHORTM,a,f'/O REPORTERS
!' • -.

76

2 litigation.

3 Q. Lastly, sir, you stated that you were

4 not in Dallas, Texas on the day President Kennedy·

5 was assassinated?

6 A. I'm sorry, did you put that in the form

7 of a question?

8 Q. Yes, sir.

9 A. I was not.

10 Q. And you stated that all of the references

11 in the Spotlight article concerning your involvement

12 with the Kennedy assassination are incorrect?

13 A. They are false.

14 Q. And that there never was a memo written

15 or formulated by the CIA as referred to in the

16 article?-

17 A. I will say that is correct.

18 I will qualify that and say that I know

19 that through the testimony of Mr. Helms and Mr.

20 l'.ngleton.

21 0- - From depositions they gave in the

22 Weberman lawsuit?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And that there was no program or that

25

James J· S hipano
CE:RT1F1£0 Si'"'ORT'"'"l"O R(»ORTERS
I .- .·•
'
77

2 there is no program being formulated by the CIA to

3 make you scapegoat wherein they would allege that

4 you were involved in the Kennedy assassination?

5 k I never heard of anything of the kind

6 until Spotlight made the allegation.

7 Q. And you are relying on the testimony of

s Mr. Helms and Mr. Angleton to that effect?

9
Well, I don't recall if they testified

10 to that point specifically.

11 Their testimony I~believe revolves around

12 the existence or nonexistence of a memorandum such as

13 described in the Spotlight article.

14 Q. Fair enough.

15 You have listed a few network TV

16 appearances. I only want to inquire about two of

17 them.

18 YO.u w~re on the Today Show interviewed

19 by Tom Brokaw in 1980 and ag_ain by Tom Jarriel on

w the show called 2D/20 again in 1980.

21 What were the topics of those interviews?

n Let's deal with the Today Show first.

23 The Today Show topic was my reaction

~ to a book then recently published by J. Gordon Liddy .

. 25

James J· $ hipano
Cl':RTlf"l£0 SHORT>-<.&.NO R£f'ORTl':RS
 78

~ Was any reference made or discussion had

concerning your possible involvement in the Kennedy

assassination?

& Not to my recollection, no.

~ I ' l l ask you the same question concerning

Tom Jarriel, the interview on the show 20/20.

That was a pretaped program. It was

taped partly here and partly in New York for a

period of approximately four hours, and I think a

number of i t had to do with the Central

Intelligence Agency.

During the course of Jarriel's question-

ing to me during the taping sessions, the subject of

my possible involvement in the assassination of

President Kennedy came up, but I am not sure whether

that actually was aired. You understand, the

editing process.

~ Did you see the program?

& I didn't see the final program because I

didn't know when i t was going to come on.

I think they did a half-hour out of well

over four hours of taping.

MR. McGRANE: Mr. Hunt, thank you very

James J· S
CERT!F"IE;DSHORTH-" ... D
hipano
RE»ORT1';RS
 79

2 much.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

4 [Thereupon, at 3:20 P.M., the deposition

5 was concluded.)

6 [Reading, subscribing and notice of

7 filing were waived.]

8 - - -

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24
,.
25

Jan1es J· S hipano
CE;RTIFIEl:l SHORTHA.P'IO AE,.ORTERS
 SQ

2
CERTIFICATE OF ~OTARY

3
STATE OF FLORIDA
SS.
4 COUNTY OF Dl'.DE

5
I, JAMES J. SHIPANO, a Notary Public for the

6
State of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that I

7
reported the deposition of E. HOWARD HUNT, JR., the

8 Plaintiff herein, a witness called by the Defendant

9 in the above-styled cause; that the said witness was

10 duly sworn by me; that the reading, subscribing and

11 notice of filing of the deposition were waived by

12
said witness and by counsel for the respective

13 parties; and that the foregoing pages, numbered from

14 1 to 79 inclusive, constitute a true and correct

'
15 record of the deposition by said witness.

16 I further certify that I am not an attorney or

17 counsel of any of the parties, nor a relative or

18 employee of any attorney or counsel connected with

19 the action, nor financially interested in the action.

20 WITNESS my hand and official seal in the City

21 of Miami, County of Dade, State of Florida, this 9th

22 day of November 1981.

23

24 M

25

James J· $ hipano
C'ERTlf"]E;O SHORTHAND RE'.f>ORT'ERS
I------

.,;.·_ ' -ii:s.~

:'.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
Miami Division

----------------------------------
E _ HOWARD HUNT , JR _ ,

Plaintiff

VS CASE NO. 80-1121-CIV-JT:-JK

;\I f.<1.
I --l .
Qv
....; ' · - - - -
LIBERTY LOBBY, INC - ,

Defendant
----------------------------------
Suite 917
910 17th Street, N.N.
•' ]' ~ . ; '. .. . .. -· .
_:;;,. ~: ~·
. ..: ~ '. ~
..... _, '
-
~

Washington, D. C.
Monday, December 7, 1981

Deposition of

Wl'.LTER P, KUZ~1UK,

a \vi tness herein, called for examination by counsel for the

Plaintiff, pursuant to notice, at the law offices at 910 17th

Street, N.W., Washington, D. C., beginning at 2:50 p.m.,

before Patricia 11. Dowd, a Notary Public in and for the

District- of Columbia, when the parties were represented by

the following counsel:

FRIEDLI, WOLFF & PASTORE, INC.

1735 EYE STREET, N.W. SUITE #811
WASHINGTON, D.C. 2.0006

PHONES: 33!·1981
33 l ·1982
 2

ELLIS RUBIN LA\'J OFFICES, P·.A.

BY: ELLIS RUBIN, ESQ.
2 265 Northeast 26th Terrace
Miami, Florida 33137
3 On behalf of the Plaintiff

4 FLEMING LEE , ESQ.

General Counsel
5 Liberty Lobby
300 Independence Avenue, S.E.
6 Washington, D. C. 20003
On behalf of the Defendant
7

8 C 0 N T E N T S
- ---- ---
E X A M I N A T I 0 N B Y
9 WITNESS MR. RUBIN HR. LEE

10 l'VALTER P. KUZMUK 3 11

11

12

13 EXHIBITS
14 [None]
15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
 . 3

[Thereupon,

2 WALTER P. KUZMUK,

3 a witness herein, was called for examination by counsel for

i'
4 the Plaintiff, and, having been first duly sworn by the Notary,

5 was examined and testified as follows:

6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR TlIE PLAINTIFF:

7 BY MR. RUBIU:

8 Q What is your name and address, please?

9 A Walter P. Kuzmuk -- K-U-Z-M-U-K -- 1127 Steamboat

I
10 Road, Shady Side, Maryland 20.764.
I
11 I Q lfua t do you do for a living, sir?
I
12 .A I work for the Central Intelligence Agency .

13 Q And how long have you been so employed?

14 A Some 26 and 1/2 -- almost 27 years.

15 Q Do you know E. Howard Hunt?

16 A Yes, I do.

17 Q \'/lien did you first meet him?

18 A I met Ho•llard in l,Te\Vport, California, in January r

19
1945.
20 II Q \·las he with the Agency at that time?
i
21 A Well, at that time i t was called Office of
I
22 Strategic Services.
I

\1
II
 Q And over the years, did you keep track of each
11
2 I other?

3 A As we normally do in the Agency. Different job

I
I assignments, etc., but we did. We lived close to each other
4
I
5 later in Bethesda.
I
6 l1, Q In 1963, where were you stationed?
ii
7
ii
,, A I was stationed here in Washington, D. C.
ii
'I
8 Q And do you know where Howard Hunt was stationed?
I
9
I A In Washington, D. C.
I
I
'
10 Q Did you see each other?

11 11 A Yes, on a daily basis.

11

12 II Q Daily ba.sis? Did you work out of the same office?

II
13 A We worked out of the same building on the same

14 floor, adjacent offices.

15 Q Did you socialize at all?

I,
16 A Yes. We lived within four or five houses of one

17 another at home. !1y wife was friendly with his wife, and my
18
children were friendly with the children.
19 Q iHl right. Getting to Hovember of 1963, did
20 anything unusual happen during that month that stands out in
21
your memory?
22 A Very much so.

I\
ii
 5
I:
I
'1

I
Q What is that?

2 A The assassination of President Kennedy.

3 Q Do you know the exact date?

4 A Unfortunately, no, but it was in the twenties --

5 21st or

6 Q Would November 22nd -- would that refresh your

7 i
recollection?

8 A I was thinking 21st or 23rd, somewhere in there.

9 The 22nd is fine.

I
I'
10 I
Q Do you recall that day in your memory? That is, wha~

11 you did that day? Almost everybody does.

12
A Right. Of course. I got into the office in the
13
morning and then lunch time arrived and, as usual, several of
14
us got together and we went to lunch, and we went to lunch
15
at Duke Zeibert' s, right around the corner from 1·1here the
16
office was, practically. And I was with several of my
17
colleagues.
18 I guess it was around 1:00 or 1:30 in the afternoon
19 we came out, and Duke Zeibert's I think is on L Street -- used
20 to be on L Street, right around the corner. And coming up
21 Connecticut l'.venue, coming back to our office the Mayflower

22 is across the street, so I don't remember exactly the location '--

11
11
<' ,-,.

It 6
ji
I

and I saw a car go by and I noticed Howard and Betty -- not

2 Betty

3 Q Dorothy?

4 Dorothy. And I waved at them.

5 What kind of car was it?

6 A It was a Chevrolet, I thought.

7 Q Had you seen him in that car before?

8 A We rotated in a carpool. I had a little Morris

9 Minor, and every now and then I would pick him up and every

10 now and then he would pick me up. But usually Dorothy drove it

11
because she had the kids and dropped them off at the boys
12
school up on Wisconsin Avenue, the Sid Friendwell [sic], and
13 then she woulcl. drive us downtown and drop us off and pick us
14
up in the afternoon when he had to d.ri ve. But when I drove,
15
I parked the car.
16
I'm pretty sure it was a Chevrolet. I think a
17
white Chevrolet, four door sedan.
18
How do you know it was Howard Hunt?
19
A Well, you see a person, you recognize him or you
20
don't. It was Howard, and I hollered at him, "Howard."
21
Q Did he yell back?
22 Yes. \•Javed.
A
 . 7

Q Did you go back to work that day from lunch?

2 A I did. Like I say, it was either between 1:00

3 probably closer to 2:00 in the afternoon. At this point, I

4 didn't know anything had taken place. When we walked into the

5 office, and we were in the Matomic Building here, where our

6 offices were at that point, between 17th and 18th, I think it

7 // is, on H, I think it is.

8 We got in there and someone said had you heard?

9 "Heard what?" And then ·we found out that this had taken place, i
I
10 the assassination -- or attempted assassination at that point-~
I
11 of the President in Dallas, Texas.

12 And someone had a radio and we listened to the news

13 and about that time everybody was taking off to go home or

14 something. He hung around there for quite a while.

15 Q Did Howard come back to work?

16 A I did not see him. If he did, I did not see him in

17 the building. But I did see him that afternoon on that corner

18 and he was with his wife, and I greeted him, shouted at him.

19 Q Jl.nd that all took place in Washington, D. C.?

20 A Right on -- well, it 1·10uld be Connecticut Avenue near

21 Duke Zeibert's, which is no longer there, and that's uhat,

22 L Street? If I had a map -- it was right there on the corner.

 ,,
1!
. 8
Ii
II
"

Used to be an exclusive men's shop on the corner of Duke

2 Zeibert's, and I think he was going into that damn thing, I'm

3 not sure.

4 Q Do you recall when the next time you saw Howard

5 was? I\Tas it later that day, or the next day, or --?

6 A It wasn't that day. I probably didn't see him for al

7 couple of days. ~Ve didn't have our jobs did not overlap I
8 on a day to day association. Just meet in the hall and meet

9 at the staff meetings, etc., etc.

10 But I don't -- I can't say that I did see him. I

11 know I didn't see him that day after I did greet him on the

12 corner. Wasn't that on a Thursday or a Friday, this thing took

13 place?

14 Q Friday.

15 A So if I did see him, it's the first of the week.

16 Q All right.

17 After 196-3, did you see him?

18 A Oh, yes. We stayed in that building and moved

19 across the way, and then we carpooled almost -- well,every day

20 unless I was out of the city or he was out of the city for

21 some reason~ But until I left in December, 1964, on a daily

22 basis.
 . 9

3 Q Did he ever tell you that he had been in Dallas,

4 Texas the day that President Kennedy was shot?

5 A I:Jor sir~

6 Q
Do you know if he was ever even questioned about

7
!I
I it?
i
8 A Not to my knowledge.

9 Q As the years went by, did you ever hear stories or

10 read anything that Howard was accused of having been in Dallas,

11 I· Texas at the time of the President's death?

12
A I was somewhere on the road, I picked up a paper

13 and it was photographs, circled photographs showing -- trying

14 to identify people.

15 And· one whether i t was in what paper, I don't

16
know, could have been a Washington paper; I'm sure i t was

17 of trying to identify people in these circles, and I think at

18 that point i t indicated that they were trying to hitch it

19 to that it was a picture of Howard Hunt, and I think I was down

20
in the Keys.
21 It must have been the Miami Herald, because I was

22 down at the Keys, and I knew Howard was still up in the Eglin

I\
'i
( ::,,
i;
I/ ' 10
I,

area -- E-G-L-I-N -- at that point. I

2 And I think I wrote a letter to you to please forwarl
I
3 i t to Howard.

4 Q Yes.

5 A And that's what triggered my getting in touch with

6 Howard, because I didn't want to get in touch with Howard

7 under the other circumstances.

8 Q When you saw the pictures in the paper --

9 A I remember reading something that indicated that

10 Howard Hunt was in Dallas at the time of the President's

11 assassination, and I felt

12 Q Why did you contact me?

13 A Because I didn't want to write through Eglin.

14 Q But what did you want to tell me?

15 A I sent you a note ahd a letter addressed to

16 Howard in it, and in the letter to Howard I said that I thought

17 this was not -- I read this article -- in fact, I may have

18 cut that thing out; I think i t was in the Mia.mi Herald, and
19 I cut i t out -- and I said, "I know that is not so, that you
20
were in the office that day and I met you on the corner."
21 Because I didn't feel
That's what prompted me.
22
this was cruite right.

11
 11

Q Could that have been in 1975?

2 A Not in '75. I didn't get down to the Keys i t was

3 in January of '76, and it could have been '77 '76 or '77.·

4 I'm not sure.

5 MR. RUBIN: That's all I have. You may inquire.

6 E:X.AMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT: II.

7
i
BY MR. LEE:

8 Q Thank you, I will.

9 Sir, what was your title when you worked for the

10 CIA in 19.63?
11 A In what regard do you mean title?
12 Or position with the CIA. In what capacity were
Q

13 you working there?

14 Well, in the language of the Agency, I was a case
A

15 officer, if that means anything to you.

16 Q Who was your superior or supervisor?
17
A At that point, i t was a fellow by the name of Robert
18
Mahaney.
19 Q Is he still with the Agency?

20 A No. We are all retired, all of that group.

21 Q Do you know in what capacity Mr. Hunt was working

22 for the CIA at that time?

r "'I
11
1; . 12
'

A He was in charge -- at that particular assignment,

2 he was working in this outfit under a man who is now dead,

3 Tracy Barnes, and he was in the -- well, we call i t the

4 Propaganda Division. A writer, which is his l10S to start with.

5 Q Do you know who his department supervisor or

6 immediate superviser was?

7 A I believe he answered directly to Tracy at that

8 point. It was a brand new division, and it hadn't really

9 settled down.

10 Q >"7ho is Tracy?

11 A Tracy Barnes was charged with the responsibility

12 of this newly-created division, and we all went over to it.

13 Q Well, based on what you said a few minutes ago,

14 I gather that you consider yourself to be good friends with
15 E. Howard Hunt, is that true?
16
A Over the years, I would say yes. If we weren't
17
friend!': that when he got sick or I got· sick we· cried on each
18
other's shoulders, but I respected him as he did me, and we
19
knew each other since, like I said, January of 1944.
20
He was a second john and so was I.
21 Q Maybe you should explain what that is.
22 A A second lieutenant.

l'
I
!
, 'iI,
"i
'::
13
Ii
'

Q You say you carpooled with him?

2 A Yes, we lived within fifty yards of one another

3 in Sumner.

4 Q This car you say you saw him in, you described it as

s a white Chevrolet?

6 A I thought i t was a white Chevrolet. He had a

7 station wagon, also. They had several cars.

8 Q Were these cars cars which belonged to him? You

9 mentioned a carpool. Were these cars that belonged to the

10 Government?

11 ,A No. When we say carpool, in this case it's our

12

13

14

15

16 and one week he woulc". drive and the next week I would drive

17 and we had a third party and they would drive.

18 Q So all the cars you were referring to were privately

19 01.vned?

20 A Personally owned, yes.

21 Q You have already discussed seeing Mr. Hunt after

22 the day of the Kennedy assassination. When is the last time

 .14

you recall seeing him before the day of the Kennedy assassi-

2 nation?

3 A Before?

4 Q Before the day of the Kennedy assassination.

5 A Well --

6 Q You said, I believe, that you saw him within -- or

maybe you didn't see him for a couple of days afterwards. \"!hen
7

8 did you last see him prior to that day?

9 A Probably th.at week. A lot of times something

10 would happen, I couldn't come down town and I would call

I
11 Howard that morning and say, ''Howard, the carpool is off, I hale

12 to go in another direction," and he would find a ride downtown.

13 And I'm pretty sure one day he was ill. It could

14 have been a couple of days. Could have been early in the

15 week. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a two week or ten days

16 period that I didn't see him prior to that eventful assassina-

17 tion date, if that's •:rhat you are asking.

18 Q I'm not. You said you were sure there were

19 several days on which you didn't see him prior to that?

20 A Could have been.

21 Q Do you remember riding into work with him the

22 morning of the Kennedy assassination?

I!1
,, ' ::
1:
II 15
ii
Ii
'I
11

A No, I don't think so. I don't remember how I got

2 in, whether I drove in myself, or not.

3 Q Did you say that someone was ill during that week?

4 I thought you said that.

5 A I'm not sure whether he was in the office that day.

6 I mean, it's easy to be that you are on sick leave or whatever.

7 These things always happen in the Agency, you know what I mean.

8 You don't show up to your office. And our particular position

9 is that we were in -- we had a lot of outside activity on, say,

10 an eight to five period, or whatever you want to call it, and

11 if we had to do it, we wouldn't ride that day.
12 So I really can't pinpoint whether or not that morning

13
I rode with Howard, but I would go on the basis that, since
14
I saw him there right at lunch time and he was with Dorothy,
15
that he was shopping or v1hatever.
16
Q Who is Dorothy?
17
A His wife.
18 I see. And i t was approximately what time, did you
Q

19
say you saw him?
20 A Usually we fell out of Duke Zeibert's around 2:00

21 o'clock in the afternoon, or maybe 1:30 - quarter of two --

22 somewhere in there.
 I
I 16
'
1,

Q So when you thought you saw him, i t was somewhere

2 around 2:00 o'clock?

3 A When I did see him, i t was around 2:00 o'clock.

4 Let's pin i t down. Let's say 2:00 o'clock.

5 Q Would there be anything unusual, to your knowledge,

6 about his being out shopping, to your knowledbe, at 2:00 o'clock

7 on a working day?

8 A No.

9 Q You weren't required to keep any sort of regular

10 hours at the CIA?

11 A No. Earlier you asked me what my position was, and

12 I explained i t to you, and probably that's not clear to you.

13 A case officer, which means that we are .in and out, depending

14 on what the activity may be:

15 Q Well, yes, sir, excuse me for interrupting. I

16 understood why you were there, because you were out to lunch.

17 A He had the same situation. None of us in that

18 particular activity were sitting down at a desk for eight
19
hours at a typewriter.
20 But you said, I believe, that he was a writer.
Q

21
A Yes, he was.
22 Q Of propaganda, or something.
ff' ~

"i
I/,, 17
!III
:1
I

A Well, at his level, he had people that did the

2 script, all right? And he did the thinking. So when I say

3 writer, he wasn't sitting there throwing out reams of

4 paragraphs or whatever.

5 Q You say your offices were adjacent in the building,

6 within the building? You and Mr. Hunt's offices?

7 A We were in the same building, yes, on the same

8 floor.

9 Q And your offices were adjacent to one another?

10 A Down the hall a couple of doors. There wasn't

11 a very large group. Probably about 15 or 20 of us in this

12 particular location.

13 Q And I believe you already testified that you did not

14 pass him in the hall or see him on that day, other than the

15 time you saw him on the street?

16 A I saw him on the street corner, right.

17 Q Can you give me the names of any other individuals

18 who worked within that group who would have -- by within that

19 group, I don't mean within the CIA in its entirety, but within

20 the group that you referred to where there were 17 or so

I
i
21 people on the same floor -- that we could contact, if necessary1,

22 who would know anything about Mr. Hunt's whereabouts during

 . 18

that period?

2 A Hell, his own office and I believe his deputy at

3 that time was a gal by the name of Betty McDonald. That

4 name come up through Howard's conversation?

5 Q Well, I haven't spoken with Mr. Hunt, so I can't

6 say. You just tell me what you remember. If you remember

7 names.

8 A Hell, she was one that worked very closely in his

9 office. And I thought maybe she was his deputy on that level.

10 The name of his secretary, I can't remember who

11 that was.
12 Q Was there anybody with you on the sidewalk or the

13 street when you saluted Mr. Hunt?

14 A Yes, I think at the time I wrote to Howard -- there

15 was a guy, a man, by the name of Lou Rucker. I'm pretty sure

16 I'm correct. And then a man who worked with me, right next
17 to me, more or less in the same activity, John Sucher.
18
S-U-C-H-E-R and R-U-C-K-E-R.
19
Q And you are saying those two gentlemen were with
20
you at the time you waved?
21
A Yes.
22 Do you know their whereabouts today?
Q
rrr,.·· r.

II
19
II

!I
A One I do. Rucker is retired in Jackson, Mississippi!.
i
I
2 John Sucher, I don't know. He was from out v1est
I
3 somewhere, and, of course, both are retired, also. But Lou,

4 I believe he went back to his home town somewhere around

5 Jackson, Mississippi.

6 Q All right. You were saying to Mr. Rubin a few

7 minutes ago that you had volunteered to send this sort of

8 information or this information by way of Mr. Rubin to Mr.

9 Hunt?

10 A Right.

11 Q I didn't understand the reason you gave for doing i t

12 that way. You said you didn't want to go through something.

13 A I said I didn't know hov1 to go ·about it, and I

14 knew Hr. Rubin was representing Mr. Hunt at that time. He was

15 his attorney. And the most logical -- even in the Agency,

16 we do sometimes come up with some pretty good things.

17 I thought you said something about Elgin or Eglin.
Q

18 11
11
I didn't want to go through Eglin.

19 Well, they would have been the last one that would
A

20 have had his mailing address, and I didn't want to go through

21
that.
22 What was that?
Q
 i
I 20

A It's an Air Force base in Florida. I knew he had

2 been there for a while. And then I noticed that,· I believe,

3 at that time in the papers, where I picked i t up in the

4 Miami Herald that Mr. Rubin was Mr. Hunt's legal representative,

5 and when I read this article, I felt that in good conscience

6 I should make him aware of the fact that I didn't believe, and

7 I still don't believe, and I know it; he was not in Dallas,

8 Texas.

9 Q You say you are now retired from the CIA?

10 A Yes.

ll Q l"lhat year did you leave?

12 A August of '75.

l3 Q When was the last time you saw !1r. Hunt?

14 A Last time I saw Howard was at his how in Miami in

15 let me see, this is '80? 19 78.

16 MR. RUBIN: This is '81.

17 THE WITNESS: Two years.

18 MR. RUBIN: That would be '79 then?

19 THE WITNESS: 1979? In '79, I think they came

20 down and visited us down in the Keys, and then we were up

21 in Miami, we stopped and had lunch with them.

22 MR. LEE: I don't have any more questions, thank

 -21

MR. RUBIN: Thanks for coming.

2 [\·Jhereupon, at 3:15 p.m., the taking of the

3 deposition was concluded.]

5
******
6
··.
7

10 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

11
I, Patricia M. Dowd, the officer before whom the foregoing
12 deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose
13 testiaony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn
14 by me; that the testimony of said witness was taken by me in
15
Stenotype and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me; that
16 said deposition is a true record of the testimony given by
17
said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor
18
employed by any of the parties to the action in which this
19
deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative
20
or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the
21
parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in
22
the outcome of the action.

~!y Corrmission expires

1~~ 7j!-~-d
NotaDJ Fuolic in an
· ' - for~·

F.ebruarv District of Columbia

'; - 28, 1985
 ,-···
- . - -.. -·---I,.______. ., _ _·-----_;·..--~--~·-··---.;"-.
I
-~~_,,,;:· ..... -;.::: ... -
__ j
! 2:1.,J :i:~E C~iI?~D '.::T.:'.i'.:'E.S DIS'.l:RICT CC•UR':1
FOR TllE SOUTHEPJ.'i DISTRICT OF FLORIDA

CASE NO. 80-1121-CIV-JWK

Plaintiff,

.vs.

LI3E:J.?Y LOSB~i, r::1c. , a ~·/ashington /

D.C. corporation,

Defe:iaant~

265 Northeast 26th Terrace,

t-!iami, Florida,
December 11, 1981,
10:10 o'clock a.rn.

·:. \
DE PO.SIT I 0 N

0 F

.Taken Pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition

--~

--1

'3-i..::.7..nian .::::;R.:.p.07..ti.129 cE:::'luic:.::.

~:COURT REPORTERS' . -~•
 ;..~.'
\I
'

2
ELLIS S.. RUBii\1 1 ESQ~ ,
3 265 Northeast 26th Terrace,
Miami, Florida,
4 On Behalf of the Plaintiff.

5 TALBURT, KUBICKI & DRADLEY 1 ESQS.,

BY: ROBERT F. BOUCHARD, ESQ. and
6 JOHN DERREVEPE, ESQ.,
25 West Flagler Street,
7 Miami, Florida,
On Behalf of the Defendant.
8
ALSO PRESENT:
9

10

11

12

13
I N D E X
14

15
WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
16
Edv;ard J. Dunn 4 38 62 63
17

18

..,.,,., .I
·-. \-...:".::":?' • _ •.. .. . . . ·.• ,_,._-.,;t...-r-. .. w;•_- ~:

:;:..;.~'*:.of·_
.,-:_;-;,·-
'. !..'~:·-.->;.:.:·.~~~::-::'.~~~:'X~:t::··.. ;~:-~~~;~1-~~~·;::S·~·~~-
.. 20 .
:-.o;o;

21 E X H I B I T .... -~ .1.· . ,-:. . . .... '\·'

22
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1 for Identification pg. 16 ... 1
23

24 I
25

•'/,': ·\.·- .. :.~ ···-

 'i '..<·
g,. • .,~,Ji:

ED V-lAP~D J . DUi'f~l
2

was called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiff and,

3

after being first duly sworn, was examined and testified

4

5
upon his oath as follows:

6
HR. BOUCHARD: Hy name is Robert F. Bouchard

with the law firm of Talburt, Kubicki & Bradley on

7

8
behalf of Liberty Lobby, Inc.

Before we start, .r would like to state my objection

9

We ha,1e hand-delivered to i'1r. Rubin an objection to

10

the notice of this deposition on the basis that we

11

did not have reasonable notice under the federal rules.

12

We received notice yesterday by phone and then

13

14
last night or late yesterday afternoon was the first

15
written notice that we received, and our position is

16
that this is not reasonable notice under the federal

17
rules as stated in the written objection and we can

18
attach the objection to the deposition.

he would not be available for trial because he is

. '• 21 ...• ~
.. -
..:." .. : -·- -.,
.....~.... ··..&;..,

required to go into the hospital for su~gery.

22

He will be confined in a hospital for a short time,

23

but then the recuperation period will be extensive.

24

We were also just notified by a telephone call

25

..,
 irom Judge Kehoe's secre~ary that the trial in this

2 cause could go late ·tl1is week, which obviously it 1 s

3 not going to, this being Friday. It will probably be

4 commencing tJ1is coming Monday and therefore, because

5 of t11e s11ortness of time and the judge 1 s continuing

6 order that discovery will be allowed until the day of

7 trial, we are forced to take the deposition at this

• - _, -=- ---<'-'t'> r ·-•- •·· ·'.·";!...- __

8 time with short notice.

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. RUBIN:

11 Q. Mr. Dunn, what is your name and address?

12 A. My name is Edward J. Dunn, Jr. I reside at 8385

13 Southwest 158th Street, Miami, Florida.

14 Q. What is your occupation?

15 A. I am retired.

16 Q. From what?

17 A. From the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

18 Q. How long were you employed by the FBI?

20 Q. When did you retire? -., .- . ,·- -~ .. - ' ._-.

--
··----.' . ' .........
,21 A.
-:·
.. _I retired
't, ~ _.,_,..,.
on Januar.y _._,.,.~~-.;.<.~.''4--'
.. ,.,..· •.-/ .. • .. --;--.... , ,').~-
lst, .1978 at. Miami, Florida •..
~·.1;.;.,..:;.....1.••••. ~..... ,;.._~._.9'.~'·--- ... ,,_;.,,.~;..~·r~•..t·~...-;";s;,;,,:.,,

22 Q. What did your duties entail over the years and

especially to".vard .,_ __

.._
~he
last?
23

24 A. I would say I devoted 15 years to foreign ' . -~·· ,_.

25 intelligence and espionage and the other 15 years to

 org a ~~~e'
~.i....!....:.
'J c-~~e
..:....L..al a~d
.... rela-·~--~d
-- c~~e~.
..... _ .....

• .<= • - •
2 Q. In t11ose years WJ.. th t.'"le FBI r 'i·Tere you .l_amiJ..iar

3 with what they call the intelligence community of the

4 United States of America?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. Did you become involved in some investigations

7 as part of your duties with the FBI, involving intelligence?

8 Yes, I did.

9 Q. Did you nave anything to do with the investigation

10 conducted by federal agencies involving the assassination

11 of John F.'.Kennedy which occurred on November 22, l963?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Can you tell.. us briefly what your investigation

14 . part included? f -:., .• J. ·.; -.·,I ;

15 A. • It was not ·L would -.say-.a ·major _,aspect: of .·this.·

16 investigation. · I· was ·assigned to Prov:i:dence, Rhode Island

at that time ~ ' ...

1
·.tr~ r:~ r ·t: i
17'. -
'..... ".' ._, 71:
~ ....
+-0·1.- .".T

1s· . ··Basically my involvement would be running out

20.';) I ,:lbelfaiveb:leads -'on.1.the weaponvthat,,,_w:as ,-,used by . Mr. Oswald... ,

' and
-t:J:.•il': .... ·-.
,. ...
perhaP.S
. •
,;±nterv:icews
. -· ·~· . ·~· .
.as , __.. they came-~~ .'1P•'f...r-~·-·
.• from headg_uart,ers
.... ···--~-··-...t·~·
d • ... -.- --
..in.. -~•:.. " •.. -'
_,.,_,......~· ----- ...... ~ .... --"'"'··"""""'"••~-- "'"'

22 Washington, D.C.

23 Specificall:/, I can 1 t relate any furtl1er tl1an that.

1•
24"" ...

25·· Commission Findings-? ....'-•.

_, :~:- ,.;
 refer:::-ed to portion of the reco.rd.)

THE WITNESS: We were of the opinion that Nr.

2

Oswald was the only assassin involved in this matter.

3

4 BY MI<.. RUBIN:

Q. l1r. Dunn, this case is scheduled to go to trial

5

6
possibly this coming Monday, December 14, 1981. Your

deposition is being taken subsequent to the notice of taking

7

8
deposition ser-.:1ed on the other side ..

Will you be available for testimony commencing

9

10 Honday, December 14, 1981?

11 A. No, I definitely will not.

12 Q. Why not?

13 A. As of Monday morning, I expect to be in surgery.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. At the Coral Reef Hospital on Southwest 152nd

16 Street.

17 Q. In what city?

18 A. Miami, Florida. ·The surgeon is Dr. Karl Sturge.

20 hospital?

. -
~~-~-

22
through Wednesday, which is three days.

23 Q. And following that?

.:,. .. ~- '
A. Following that, i t will.be at·least two weeks;'
24

25
depending on the rapidity of my recovery.

•.--- ··~··

....
.- , ·~
 Q. T~.vo '.·reeks confined at 11ome?

2 Right.

3 Q. Do you realize that the questions and answers

4 that I ask and you give and that the other attorneys ask you

5 will be presented to the judge and the jury in the trial

6 of this case?

7 Are you answering these questions as if you were

8 actually in court as a witness sworn to tell the truth?

9 Yes, I am.

10 Q. May we use this testimony in court?

11 Yes, you may~

12 Q. Now continuing on, can you give us just a brief

13 history of your education -- Where were you born?

14 I was born in Providence, Rhode Island on April

15 3, l9l9.

16 Q. Did you graduate from the public schools there?

17 Yes.

18 Q. Did you go to college?

20 ·to college at Brown University. . '-r:·· . __

.
,."<.
..
c:,"'"'•

21 Q. .
22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. With what degree?

... ,.. .. . A.
24 Ari AB degree .
25 Q. Did you take any further schooling?

.........; ...___- ..
.. - :.·.::
 A.. l~o, I served in tl1e rnili tary, specificall~/ -t.I1e

United States {•larine Corps, after \.;hich I \.,rent \.;ith the

Q. Did yo11 ser'iJe du::cing any t,var?

A. I served basically as an intelligence officer

Pacific. .I
~ During World War II?

A. Yes, during World War II. Do you want more

specifics?

Q. No, that's enough.

You say you retired from the FBI after 20 years?

A. Thirty years.

Q. Do you know E. Howard Hunt, Jr.?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How long have you known him?

20 1939.

21 Q. How did you happen to first meet him?

22 A. I met him \'lhen we ~,.;rere students at Brov1n

23 University and specifically during the rushing activities

24 for fraternities there.

25 Mr. Hunt was a member of Zeta Psi Fraternity that

··~-' .. -·:· : .. ·•
 t. ~ "
I
,,
Ii
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_, ~ ... - ···-
·1
...
.;;"l '

ii
I
2
l.vith rne on October 12, 1939 because tl-1is \Vas ti1e first time
3
I took out the young lady who subsequently became my wife.
4
Q. Ha-=Je you continued your friendship ~·1i th f1lr. Hunt
5
through the years?
6
A. Yes, I have~

7
Q. Did :/ou e1rer meet ~·1i tl1 r,lr. Runt during the time
8
that you were in the service or in the FBI?
9
;._ I rnet I-Io 11c.rd briefly in the ser·v~ice, but he ~11as
1

10
in the NaV'.f in one direction and I was going in another.
11
Q. Do you know what he was doing in the Navy?
12
A Yes 1 he was an officer assigned to a destroyer in
13
the Atlantic in anti-submarine warfare.
14
Subsequently, Hr. !iunt was out of the count~y
15
most of the time.
16
Q. Doing what, do you know?
17
A. He \.;as in the CIA and i;vas transfer:::ed to various
18
posts ..
'i-"."'f".;~;.:0·•.>]: ·:· ·-19· .• -.•,,,. ... ~?'.ff!~?-~~-:,>-4:.t~·:--.·,,~~·~~~:-.~f-:.· ... ~~~.:c .... ,,.,,.~__.~,::t.'.'"_.. ..~,:~~t..-:--;.t,;,._.,-....,.-, __,.-"?,~'t'}c:P,·~:#!,_,~'.~-::..

Q. Did you manage to keep in touch?

20
~ No, I hadn't seen Howard in several years until
21
I hadn 1
"t seen him, but I ha1.:i a note frora l1im £row his
22
residence in Washington.
23
I had run into a mutual friend that he had
24
mentioned w1:1en I ~,..;as in Bos ton~ Dy the tiru.e I got fioward 1 s
25
 corres~cndence about tl1is; not.bing of any consequence,
2

3
just socially.

Q. }·fue!l did you first meet 11im after you carae back
4

5 to rv1ian1i to retire 2.nd rr1l1en ...,as that?

6 A. l'lell, let me clear tl1.is up. I was officially

7
sent here in 1971 '.Vhile I was still in t11e FBI and I was

assigned to an or•:ranized crime sect.ion l1ere. Sc I ~.vas

8

9
working for the FBI here in Miami from 1971 to January 1st,

10 1978.

11
It was sometime in the spring as best as I can

12 recall of 1974 that I saw Howard again. He had purchased

13 a house in Miami and I went over to the house.

14 some men ~vorking there and Ho\vard presented l1imself from

15 the front door and we renewed acquaintances.

16 Q. Was Howard married at the time?

17 A. No, he was not married at that time. He was a

18 •.vidower.

,,.Had .he .•j ust;.been."'released~;from,..pr:i_son?.,~$'{.;;i;);".;~-.;~~.

20 A. Yes, he was at liberty I suppose, pending appeal

21 of his case.

22 Q. That t.·;as from his in 1.rol""v""ement vrith r11atergate?

23 F.ight.

24 II Q. Did you renew friendships? Did you see him quite

25 often and did he see you quite often?

···~
.......;:·.-:-
 .:.

I woult:..! 53.~l it ~.;ent. into that.

i•le became interested in getting into physical

shape and r.¥e v.1ct1lc1 meet daily- at a S0rm, the l:-1orth Dade Pub

daily lunch.

Q. In the year 1975 which is right in the middle of

that pe:r-iod r,vhen :/OU \•12re still ~Nitl1 tile FBI I did :1ou becorne

familiar •11i th the results of the P.ockefeller CoTILTUission

Investiga·tion in i:.vl1ich I-!ov1urd B~unt ~·1as named?

A. Only what I read in publications such as Time

and Newsweek.

Q. Are you familiar wi t11 t.'1.e results of that

investigation?

A. Offhand, I really can't recall.

~ At the time, did you. keep track of it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you discuss it with Howard?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I well could have, but I don't remember it right

22 IlO\'l ..

23 Q.

24 A. Yes.

25 ~ Did you visit him and his wife together at their

 ,. t

"I!"
.t:~ome?

2 lt Yes... As a matter of fact, my v1i£e and I 1-1ere

3 l,.,ri tnesses at his rNedding a·t his residence.

4 Q. Would you describe yourself as a close personal

5 frienC. of Ho1.vard 1 s?

6 A. I would describe myself as that.

7 Q. Did there come a time when you learned of an

8 article that had been published by a publication called

9 The Spotlight?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you tell us about that?

12 A. To the best of my recollection, in the SUIIL~er of

13 1978 or early fall, as I recall a postman said to me,

14 "Your friend Mr. Hunt has been named in the Kennedy

15 assassination plot in Spotlight Magazine."

16 Q. Did you know what that was?

17 A. I had heard of it, Hr. Rubin, but specifically

18 knowing what it was, no, not at tnat time.

~l.f·<'·;."·~-.'.i.f';"F-t'"~19 "~

20 do?

21 A. Well, I think I met Howard the next day or shortly

11
22 t.i.t-iereafter and I said, By tl1e way / somebod:l rnen tioned to

23 me -that you r,.vere rather prominently figured in the Kerinedy

24 assassination in a magazine called Spotlight."

25 Q. What T11as Howard's reaction?

 , r

i[
2 I
!
~1iR. BOUCHARD: Objection t::J t:12 £o=rn of t:~~
3

6 Q.
l
7 Yes, he v.;as ver-J upset b:'.{ the inference tl1at he
I
8 ':i .;.s
. ...-. -.. ..,__.
·'- .
'
~ ~

9 Q. Did he tell :'.{Ol.1 th<'.1 t he i,.;as :no·t? I

'
I object tc) t:1e forra o:: ti1..= qi.Les t:..on.
10

11 It 1 s leading .

~1P. ~ RUBI'ti: I believe that's a valid objection.

12

13 I ~·;ill re1:>hrase tl1e question.

14

Q. ~Vhat did he say concerning his possible connection

15

16 with the Kennedy assassination?

17 A. As best as I can recall, I think he said he had

not been in Dallas at that time. \•fuether he haG. subsequently,

18

.... :.-'!'"''
;~,_~-·, ~--,,.~.,
19 ··~··-'•',·I don't know.-"'but he certainly·pointed out·0to me .. that•he .,.,,.--,,.1.;-.t<:..:I
20 had not even physically visited Dallas, Texas at that time.

21 He was quite upsetab:U:the effect this publication

22 would have.

o~
~~

24 I
25 conversation?
I

.. ·.
 • ·.~·....· . .i ::.-.:. ...... ·-
-~
,..:.....:: ' - -- : . .......

countr:/. I }:nor,v 11e took se'l;1eral trips to lecture before

3

4 Ja:r:-iol1s gro11ps .
1

6 mentioned to him?

7
A. He said this could have a very adverse effect on

9
Q. Did he say anything about his lNif2 and family?

A. ~·lell of course . He \·1as quite anguisb.ed about

10 1

11 the effect of this article on his wife and also on his

12 children.

Q. Did he express -to you any action that he intended

13

14 to take or not take?

A. I don't recall what action he said he might take,

15

16 Mr. Rubin.

Q. ~Vas theYe any further. conversation about this

17

18 article at that time?

rt--,<.:·' .. .o;-·~ :'"""19i9·

20 .) Q.... Could you tell me what else was said?

21 ~
A. My.Ebest';reco:J:lection : is :that., he obtained ··.a·.~copy

I
22
of this article and on one occasion wl1en 'VJe \vere working out,

23

24 I ~ Ts this a CQ~Y 0£ the article?

25 I: A. Yes.
.I

,. .
 . ' -1·.

2 ..-~~ :1.:: :::.. :,,-_; :: ' ,._ ......

-~··-.

3 Clef amatory.

4 BY ~·'lR. RfJBI)i ~

5 Q.

7 Q. Do ~{OU kno~d that certain things in that article

8 as

9 part in the Kenned:-{ inv·estigation or as a general citizen?

10 ~lell, I r.-l()Uld so.~{ that generall:[, :'1!:°. ~ubin --

11 .il.nd based upon my own association with the CIA excluding

12 an::' association I had 1...1 i th LVlr. Hunt -- I ha-..1e had dealings

13 r:1i·th certain people in the CIA

14 Q. ~1lhy don ct we do this, iY1r. Dunn, Hhy don 't 1

".tie go

15 back to tile begin11ing of that article and let's do it by

16 paragraphs -- each of the paragraphs can be numbered one,

17 two, three, four, five, six, e~ cetera.

18 Let 1 s look:: at the headli.:ie to start. r.vould you

20 MR. BOUCHARD: Let me make a standing objection

21 as to the manner in which the article and the question

22 is being answered. It appears that you 1 re asking f.'lr.

23

24 fact witness, so I object on that basis.

25 I also object and move to strike any of the

.. _. . .f,·
 ,_ .. - ~- .... '
::~ :~.:.. : -- . '''
~... --
. ...
---
. .:.:: ~

3 Yc1u can ansi;ver.

i•lR. RUBI1."1: In respo:ise to tl1e f)bj ect.ion, !:·lr.

5 i:-1.lnn sta:ted before that he !1.e.d ;.cno~vl•2dge of the er_::._

6 from his work with the FBI.

7 I also asked him if he kne1,.l anything in that

8 ~rticla ~o ~e untrue based upon t~ose asaociati~~s ~nd

9 he is now going to go th:::-ough the article and is going

10 to ansr.ver based on that backgrounc1 of J1i.s F3!

11 association with the CIA.

12 NR. BOUCHil.RD : t·1y objectior~ still stands.

13 BY l·L~ _ RUBII'i:

14 Q. Now let's go back to the headline. What does the

15 headline say and you will have to put the two pages together?

16 A. "CIA 'To Admit' Hunt Involvement In Kennedy

17 Slaying.If

18 Q. Do you :•:now anything from your -;vork 1.·1i th tl1e FBI

20 ~u completely false.in:your opinion?.

21 MR. BOUCHARD: I object to the form of the question.

22 Before you ansi;.,er, do you 11ave an e~<:tra.. copy of the

23

24 (Thereupon there l,vas an in teI"ruption in the

25 proceedings . )

... "
 .
- - ,_; - .~ -- - - ..;. _.:. -· ...;
-~ .
2 ~-lP..

3 Q. So you can't sa~/ a::ytl1ing .:lbout t!le second

4 par3.graph 0£ your ovrn kno1>1lt~dge?

5 I·1y 0\·141 pe.rsor1al k:io\·:ledge" no.

6 Q. ~·ll1at about 9arag::-aph three?

7 i'10 / I can 1 t sa_:/ anytl1ing about paragraph nurnber

9 Q. Do you hav~e any knoTNledge of pa.ragraph nurnber

10 four based on ~lour 0\·1n ·12xperiences?

11 A. No, I do not.

12 Q. Did tl1e FBI find out r.·1ho masterminded the

13 assassination of John F .. Kennedy as far as :zrou k:n.O\•r?

14 A. Up until the time I retired fron1 the FBI, i t \I/as

15 the official opinion of the Bureau t...l-iat Lee Hc.r,Tey Owald

16 was the one and only assassin who murdered John F. Kennedy.

17 HR. BOUCHARD: I would move to strike as not

18 part of his own personal knowledge.

20 Q. Let's go to paragraph number five beginning with

21 the word 11
but 11 :tending with the word 11
deadn.

22 A. 11
But once again "
.,
23 Q. ''Bu-t .:.1e!{':. ;::,;c

24 A. I have finished reading this paragra9h 1 1~1r. Rubin.

25 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what is contained in

r

2 .:,.

3 Q. No,,.; l-:=t 1 s go to pa_ragraph number si:..:.

4 I .e t:ie:l sper~t three 21 ears in. the FBI, I

1
l l tell

6 IvIP~. 30UCE~~P.D: I rr10 ve to s trike the s ta ternen t .

7 Apparentl~t'' 1 as I understand it, tr.. e ;V'itness vras not a

9 ~IR. RUBIN: £.Jo I b11t he r,.;as 0£ the FBI 'i.Vhich is

10 inentione<1 in th.at paragrapl1.

11 BY MR. RUBIN:

12 Q. Is that '.·;hat you i.•Jere referring to?

13 A. Yes~

14 Q. Let's go on to paragraph seven. Do you knov1

15 anything about the truth or falsity based on your personal

16 knowledge as an intelligence worker with the FBI?

17 A. No, I don't know anything about this, Mr. Rubin.

18 Q. Paragraph number eight?

. ,. •. A. ··'""'"No,..• I -have.,no,.. personaL)a;i._o,w ledge .of ~P ar~graph

- ..• •·o.,:.;•"~.~~. · ..;
.. . -~ji:fq.,,, ....... !?
'"';'~

20 number eight.

21 In paragraph number nine, let me ask you

22 specifically -- As 0£ the date of this article r.vhich is

23

24 11
reputation and integrity ha~Je been destroyed.''

25 Do you know that to be true as of that date from

 2 ,-:..

3 Q. " ha.•1e bee11 6.es troyeU.. 0

i·.foul.:1 :rou sa~i

4 statenent is false or tr~e?

5 DOUCfL~~P~D: I .:;bject ta tor::: cf

6 quest.io11.

7 THE 1'lITI'1ESS: .From my person2.l rela·tionsf-:.ip •tli th

9 BY HR. RUBIN:

10 Q. -~nd frorn tt'i·hat you discussed abcut him i;.;ith other

11 people in the community as of August 14, 1978.

12 11P~ ~ BOUCHARD: I object to the form of the

13 question_ Lack of proper predicate.

14 THE ~·lITNESS : I r...;ould say that this article certai11ly

15 had an adverse effect~

16 BY HR. RUBIN:

17 Q. On what?

On iYlr ~
1
18 A. Hunt s reputation and integrity.

0: ·~ . • ·•· '. •. .BOUCHARD :

....HR
. :· ~.....,."'.'-;.':.;..; .. ~·, -~~.
I . move to strike .the...~<=_sponse .:..a,s. ·>'>.:-,;..-~;;::

20 not responsive.

21 i1R. RUBIN: Yes, that is not responsive to the

22 ~uestion6 Let me asJ.;: tl1e question again~

23 SY ::.!?.. RUBIN:

24 Q. This article states as a matter of fact that Howard

25 Hunt's reputation and integrity have been destroyed period.

,.

2
MR. BOUCHARD : I object to ti·1e form of ·tl1e question.
3

BY l1R. RUBIN:
4

Q. Do yo 12 u11de:::s tand my questiori.?

5

A. i'TO / I really don 1 t, 1:·1r. Rubin_

6

Q. Let me see if I can explain it.

7
P..n article ";'las publis11ed b~r a net.</S letter and i t
8
said that Ho\vard Hunt 1s rep11tation and integrit;/ have been
9

des troy eel.

10
Is that an opinion or is i t a fact, do you know?
11

A. Well, I think th3.t was an opinion.

12

Q. Is it an opinion based on true facts from what

13
you kno~tl of ~-lr~ Huntts repu-tation and integri-ty?
14
1-!R. BOUCHARD: Same objection.
15

THE WITNESS: No, I don't think i t was based on

16

fact at all.
17

BY i·!R, RUBIN:
18
Q. . In fact, what do you know of Mr. Hunt's reputation
:.~,.:~r:--~::.;.~.:t,·= ,;~;:~",._~~~.-f~· ~~s~t5:,~:...:<Yf:-·~~.l7iiNi:1.r.,y._>it.!.~~~1 "'r.~~~~~'."~~~-~~7~W~~4'~f:~..:~t-1:~t*~~
and integrity as of the date of this article, August 14,
20

1978?
21

22

M.."R.. BOUCHARD: E:-ccuse me, let rae state an objection

23
to the form of the question, improper predicate for
24

reputation testimony.
25

-.. - .:
 ,,,,
iiI I have always consider~u ~1=. ~unt
2
'
I

~
0 to be ar1 11onorable man of excellent c1'1aracter and

5 B'{ HR. RUBIN:

6 Q. Do ~(OU knOVl r,vh2.t his reputation ~<'laS J.!1 the

7 commuP-ity at that time for truth and veracity?

8 Is that a better p~edicnt2?

9 MR. BOUCHARD: If truth and veracity are the

10 reputation characteristics that you a~e t=y~ng ~o get

11 at. If he knows and if he's heard about it, it's fine

12 rt1i th me.

13 BY MR. RUBIN:

14 Q. Do you know i•lr. Hunt 1 s reputation in the comml.J.ni ty

15 for truth and veracity?

16 ~ I think in the community, he enjoyed a reputation

17 for truth and veracity.

18 HR. BOUCHARD: I object to the response as not

ltQI•. !.
20 was whether he had heard in the community about Hr.

2_1 Hunt'.s reputation for truth. and veracity, not what he

22 thought the community

23

24 Q. First answer that, did you hear in the com..rnuni ty

25 about Howard Hunt's reputation for truth and veracity?

 ........ ·-.::···
., ........
Q.

2 being t~ue or false?

3 A. L-To, I don't kno-r.-1 about that.

4 Q.

6 Q. I-ic: .·1 about .15?

1

7 A. I knoi:v nothing about tl1at ~

8 Q.

9 him to G~e John F. Kennedy assassination, to your knowledge?

10 A. Tc' my knov1ledge, they ne•1er ha >.re made such a

11 statement.

12 Q. Do you kno\.; of the existence or the none::<istence

13 of 11
an in.ternal CIA memorandum"?

14 A. 1'Jo, I do not knoi;,q of suci1 existence.

15 Q. How about paragraph 16?

16 A. I. have never known Mr. Hunt to be a strident,

17 fanatical anti-communist.

18 Q. Hoi;,·1 about the last sentence of paragraph 16 ~vhich

20 "E. Howard Hunt will be implicated in the

21 conspiracy and he will not dare .to speak out. The CIA will

22 see to that. 11

23

24 A. I would say that that is false.

25 Q. Has Mr. Hunt ever been implicated by anyone or

 ;~. 1.'o rt.y ~-<:r.o~,·1leO.ge, no.

Q. I belie>re ti.t-ie rest cf t..1-"ie. art.:..cle does not apply~

fact·--~
11

"The fact that sorne may ha·v~e had "

Q. "
run~
11
to be only incidental in the long
.
Do you knov; anytl1in.g about I>Ir ~ Hunt oeing connected
~

~·1i th organized crime?

A. No / I know of no connection of i"lr. Hunt as being

in organized crime.

Q. ~'Vere part of yc·ur duties rtli th the FBI investigating

organized crime?

A. Yes.

Q. In the Miami area?

A. In the I1iami area.

Q. Can you tell us the name of one of your investigations

offhand into organized crime?

A. I was assigned the homicide case relating to John

Roselli~ a raaj or organized cri1ne figure, both on the \•lest

C:;ast an·~ i.:1 Z·!iarni.

In fact r I inter,1i.e~11ed l·1.:c. Hunt about an aspect

of that case.
 ,.
-·
',.;as?
2
Yes. To ·the best of rny 3:."ecollection I .tll.is .;ould
r•
3
be in I r.·roulc:l say the latter part of September of 1976.
4
In .the course of. the Roselli ir1vestigation, tl1ere
5
T,•1as or~e segment of G~at ce.se r,·1hich related to t11e proposed
6

use of organized crime to assassinate Fidel Castro.

7
F:-To;·r this \vas t11e so-called Cuban aspect of this
8
case4
9
I in ter-;riev-red many mef!lbers of the Cuban comrr~uni ty
10
who were knowledgeable of activities in Cuba and in this
11
countrj and I·lr.. Hunt 1 s name came up independently that is,
12
I belie>1e i t was furnished by another field di vision for
13
l·iiarai to e:{plore ..
14
As a result, I visited Mr. Hunt at the Federal
15
Correctional Institute at Eglund, Florida and interviewed
16
him concerning this. At tl1at time, he said to me unequivocally
17
t...Yiat he :.11as not in'l".rol-;7ed in any atternpted assassination on
18
Fidel Castro, that he knew nothing whatsoever about this
19
matter and added that he had never been involved in any
20
assassination or any assassination attempts whatsoever during
21

22
service.
23
I made a record and sent i t in.
24
Q. Getting back to L~is a..r-cicle tl1at appears to De
25

-._-.-·.r_-. .,. __.,. - - ••_\;;:.. -_..._._":

 • 1:;. .... , ... !, :=o. ... - .;
. · - - ~·~- ~· - - I

2 to your knowledge?

3 I don 1 t know Mr. Marchetti personally, but I do

4 k:lcr11 that !1e apparently is ~:t .forme.r CIA employee-a.gent '"..rho

5 r;1.rate a rather scurrilous book t·ti tl1 ·'.3.!1other person by tl!e

6 name of l·larks _ The e.:·::a·::t ti-tle of the book escapes n1y

7 memory.

8 Q. It's in ·the bio beneath 11is picti.1re / in t:ie

9 article.

10 A. CI1\ and t:.,e Cttl t of Iritelligence.

11 Q. Is that what you are referring to?

12 Yes.

13 Q. Did you e'tTer read that boo!.:::. or hear anything about

·~-,
14 i~.

15 No, I didn't read it, but I have heard about this

16 I•lr. i1archetti .. I think he was brought to court about some

17 of this.

18 HR. BOUCHARD: I object to all this testimony about

19 what happened. If he doesn't know specifically ... ,.

20 Anybody. can read about it in a newspaper.

21 Other than that kind of knowledge, if he has any

22 specific knowledge I will wi ::hclra-;..r my objection.

23

24 Bouchard.

25
 ,,

2 (l.

3 replJta·tion in tl1e intelligence comrnuni·t:t~ of the United States

4 in 1hicl1 yo11 viere in•;olve·:J.?

r..

5 MP.. 30UC!1ARD: I obj e·::t to the for~n of the

6 guestion. If r,1e c0uld limit i t as to time because I

7 am sure his reputation changed after he wrote the book.

9 Q. Do you knot.<; of ~;lr. l1archetti 1 s .:::-e1Jutation at any

10 time tl1at ;/OU \.;ere \Yi th the intelligence dit1ision of t..'1.e CIA?

11 A. Well, let me point this out, i'!r. Rubin -- During

12 the period tl-iat I'Ir. r1archetti published this book / I wc.sn 1 t

13 involved in intelligence activity as such, but I had

14 association with people who did in the Bureau.

15 Ivlr. l1larchetti was not regarded in too good a light

16 by people involved in intelligence activities.

17 Q. Can you be a little more specific?

18 A. T,ilell, he was placed in tli.e same category as otl1ers

19 who rushed to press and who publish articles or books that

20 have little relation to the truth and that relate more to

21 sensationalism than to truth.

22 l•1R. BOUCHAP~D: I mo•;e to strike the answer as not

23

24 BY MR. RUBIN:

25 Q. You related to us that Hr. Hunt brought to you a

 A. Yes, we read i t in the gyD.

Q. ~1hat ~vere your corrunents ar!.d i•!hat i:·1ere f1lr. Hunt 1 s

conu-nents c.s close as :lou can remernber?

;l_ Iiov1arr.l ;vas qui t2 angry abou·t this because of tl1e

deleterious effect it would have, first on his wife and then

on his children and then on the effect i-t r.vould ha~1e on

L'
01.lS
'
c":)ram1.lni t_·i or throughout the

country for tl1.at matter ..

He r,..ras ..,,,ery u9set about it~

Q. Did he go over the article and point out where it

was false, if at all?

A. ~'iell, I don ft thin}: I t;vent ove:c the article r:;ri tI'.t

him because I thought the who.le thing was false, based on

my association with Hr. Hunt. I didn tt believe a 1vord of it.

Q. Did it appear to you from what you saw of Nr.

Hunt at the time that he showed you the article and then as

time went on -- Did it appear to have any visible effect

on Mr. Hunt's demeanor?

A. Yes, it did. This was an ongoing response as far

as he was concerned.

I recall one time tl1at Ho,·1ard menti.":Jned tha·t he

throughout t.'rte countr~{ and after this article appeared, I

think it was --
1···
"
II
2 interrupt, but this question although it tlidn:t state

3 it, it appears no\V the ~vitness is going into hearsa~{

4 testimoriy that only i·1r 4 Hunt could testif:l to.

5 It 1 s pure li_earsay f:::-om the plain ti ff and I \V"Ould

6 object to t11is witness testifying to tl1at sort of

7 staterr.ent.

9 Q. Le·t me rephrase t11e question~

10 In l;Jr .. Hunt!s conversations \·1ith you after he

11 showed you the article, did he talk about his lecture series?

12 ~ Yes, he did.

13 Q. Did he talk about his books that he was writing

14 and had written?

15 A. Yes, he did.

16 Q. Did he talk about his wife and his children?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he talk about his friends in the community?

19 .1 A. Yes, he .did. ~ ··- ;". !.

·'

20 Q. Did you notice any physical change· in Mr. Hunt

21 as time went on?

22 _;. A physical ci1ange?

23 Q. Yes, co~pa:ci:-ig his p!i.::,lsical c.ppe2rance befa:ca the

24 article was published with his physical appearance after

25 and as time went on.

 I 1~ saying, ~re you going to finish
2

3 up soon?

4 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I a.1n.

5 BY P1R. ROBil,J:

6 Q. Did you meet and talk to his wife after this

7 article was published, outside of the hearing or presence

8 of i·'l:r. Hunt?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. ~·las ·t~1is article the subject of an:[ con~;-ersations

11 between you and his wife?

12 Yes, it tr1as ..

13 Q. Can you tell us ':·1hat 1-ier attitude \·;as?

14 A. Well, Mrs. Hunt

15 MR. BOUCHARD: I object to the form.

16 THE WITNESS: i~1rs. Hunt said to me in their

17 residence.outside of Howard's presence that this

18 article \Vas "very disturbing, not only to him but also

.. , ..
19 to her.

20 BY MR. RUBIN:

21 Q. In what way?

22 A. ~l/'ell, i t caused Ho\·1ard great mental a.ngl1ish t,Yhicl1

23 naturall:l had a bad e£:'.:ec't o~ ~·1rs. Ilu~t c.nC. sr~e 'das

24 concerned about hott1 the children, l::Ir. Hunt's children i;.1ould

25 take this.
 'I

2 repi~rted to her based on reaction to ·this article?

3 A. Tl1ese are !•Ir,. Hunt 1 s children b'"!

- his first ma"' ..... ; aae
..L..1..- _, •

4 I think in con 1.rersations that she had, and these

5 childre!l to tl'le best of my :recollectio11 li\te in l/arious

6 parts of t11e cour~try they had e:.:pressed their an~-:iety

7 over what was said about their father in this publication.

8 Q. This a.rticle n1entions throughout the upcoTning

9 hearings of the Eouse Special Committee on Assassinations.

10 A. Righ·t ..

11 Q. Their report as to their conclusions reached in

12 their investigation was published. Did you read it?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. Did you learn about the results from someone?

15 I have no specific recollection, Hr. Rubin, about

16 the results of that committee.

17 Q. Do you knot.v r11l1.ether o_r not after this article

18 was published, Hr. Hunt went to Washington and voluntarily

19 testified before that committee?

20 A. I recall that he said to me on one occasion that

21 he was taking a trip to Washington to voluntarily appear

22 before tJ1is House Subco:rruni ttee on Assassinations ..

23 Q. ~o you }:no\.; r;1hetl1er an.yt.:::ing in this a. rticle

24 concerning the allegations that Hr. Hunt would be nailed

25 by the CIA or that he would be a witness in public, on

 __ ,
.......

2 Kennedy assassination Do you k.no\·l if an.ything l.ik:e that

3 e11er came true?

4 A. 1'1o, I don.'t~

5 Q. Did it come tru2?

7 HR. RUBIN: You may inquire, sir~

8 CROSS EXAHINATION

9 BY MR. BOUCHARD:

10 Q. Regarding tl1at last qi.1estion, ~/OU ha•len 1 t read

11 the House Select Committee Report?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you conduct any independent inquiry into

14
whether or not the CIA had information linking Mr. Hunt to

15 the Kennedy assassination?

16 No, I did not.

17 Q. When did you say you .left the FBI?

18 January 1st, 1978.

19 Q. So that was before this article was written? This

20 article was written August 14, 1978.

21 A. Right.

Q. A~~a~ you left t~a FBI, did you ~o ~ny independent

22

23 i:! 7v~estigatior1 i~to the allegations made i21 this art.icle?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. Before you got out of the FBir did you other than
!- .
..... ~'-"

2 pri v.,....y to any CI~;l- cor::1rnur.ica tions in gerLeral?

3 In general?

4 Q. Yes_

5 I vrorked ver;[ closel:Y· ;.-·ith t~'1e CIA in Bostor1.

6 Q. Do you knOT.'1 r:1hether the CIA e-.;1er planned or e-.te:t:"

7 had any intention -- Did or did not have an intention to

8 link r· Ir. llunt to the Kenned~{ assassination?

1

9 A. No, I have no such infornation,

10 Q. You b.ave r10 indeper.den't. kno\vledge of that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Regarding r:iir. ~ilarchet-ti 1 s reputation, your primary

13 Your only kno;;vledge of any reputation of £.Ir,. 1·1archetti ;;vas

14 after he wrote this book which was very critical of the

15 "Cult of Intelligence of the CIA," is that correct?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Did you e"t1er make an. independent inqui.l..y as to

18 whether Mr. Marchetti was, during his tenure as a CIA

, ...
19 agent, a good CIA agent?

20 No, I did not.

21 Q. He may have been for all you know? ... ·~." ....

22

23 Q. He did ~.-1ork closely i1i. t.he CIA >.·1ith -- :!:n fact,

24 he v1as sorr.e sort of assistant to the director, is that ric;ht?

25 A. That may be.

 I Ll.on 1 -:. knol,•: e:ccept for Y7ftat l.s .set fort:!. ..
2

Q. You did not read I ir. !•Iarchetti 1 s book?

0

4 ;\. No .

5 Q. You don I t knov1 r:,1hether tl1e matters contai11ed in

6 ~·lr. lvlarchetti ts book are true or false?

7 Not having read it, no.

Q. :t:J0\'7 :lou stated tl1at you ~. 1ere invol';red in some r..•:ay

8

9
~1itl1 the in•1estigation of the Kcnned~l assassination ';'7hile

10

11 Right.

12 Q. Is there any particular reason why you haven't

13 read the RocJcefeller Report or the Select Cammi tte Report

14 or the reports by the agencies of Congress regarding the

15 Kennedy assassination?

16 A. Is there any reason?

17 Q. Yes, why you did not.

18 A. Well, I wasn't retired then. I h2.ve no reason

19 . for not reading .them, but .you just can.'..t. read .. everything •....

20 I read the Church Report. That was enough.

Q. ~l/i th regard to t1:1e FBI cor.1.clusion that you ha\.re

21

22

wa~eri2.l that 1;·Tent into the prep:-c.tion of t11at report?

23

24 A. No_, I am not ..

25 Q. Other than that conclusion of the FBI itself and

 i~s final conclusions, are yo~ familiar ~!th any other

2 concl1.1sions tl1at ttlere postulated before the final report.

3 \vas formulated througll. the administrati•1e p?:ocess of the

4 FBI?
•
5 P~ That 1 s a rather convoluted question, but no.

6 Q. Let me rephrase the question. When the FBI

7 writes a final report, there is an awful lot that goes into

8 a report tha·t is not in the rep1~rt its elf, many facts,

9 many position papers Isn't that true?

10 A. ~·7ell,. that is confusing to me -- r~larly things go

11 into a report which

12 Q. The final report as it is signed by the Director

13 of the FBI -- He is presented, the FBI Director is presented

14 with the final product of investigations from all over the

15 country, in such a monumental report?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Before he signs the final report, he is presented

18 ma~y different conflicting reports from various people in

~~ 19 b.i.s agency before ,the. final .. report,,-is ,written.,.,,isn~.J=,""tha.t*·~'\;

20 correct?

21 A. That's true, yes.

22 Q. His r-~1)ort, tlre one t.hat. l1e chooses lS the repo.::-~

23 that is published, is t~at cc~~ec~?

24 A. Well, he doesn't choose i t as such. Usually by

25 the time t.~e information gets up there at that level, these

 o t:J1er e:-{t::-aneous a:;·.::iu::

3
Q. By people below him?

A. Yes, system directors, section c:hiefs, t.;hate-;.rer.

4

5 Q.

6 they are cleaned up or

7
Not cleaned up.

Q. Are t11ey synthesized to the point ;-1here many of

8

the facts that have been discoi:rered and discarded as rele'iant

9

10 or irrelevant --

A. If they can be proved to be inrrelevant to the

11

12 issue, they are omitted.

13
Q. And the Director may not even see t.'1ose facts?

That's possible. I can't speak of ;·:hat they do

14

15 today t.11.ough.

~ I'd like to talk a little bit about -- So I can

16

17
get clear in my mind -- the relationship that you have

18 described with Mr. Hunt.

~--·.J,,_;..~"'~ .19

20 A. Yes.

Q. And you \Vent on your £i!:"st date ~.-ii ti1 your 'l.vife and
21

22

A. He 1.vas there, yes~

23

24
Q. After that, I guess he graduated first?

25 & Yes, correct.

 2 ~ That s right.
1

3 Q. He pledged you in fact?

4 A. Right.

5
Q. This ruay seerr1 a strange question, but in the

6 fraternity that you belonged to \·1hicl1 ,.,as --

7 A. zeta Psi.

Q. ~·7ere there any particular qualifications or oaths

8

of lo~:{ al ty ·that }'OU st·1cre to, to brothers and friends and

9

10 so forth?

11 A. No.

12 Q. "10?

13 Not that I can recall. It was really a social

14 organization.

15 Q. So this would not bind you -~ Any oath that you

16 may have taken 30 years ago?

17 A. You don J t knOYl me ver_y raell, 1"1r. Bouchard I but

18 I'm telling you no, it would not.

..·:o,-, ____;. ; .-19 . ·,.o•~-, •... Q. ... _DO •.YOU remember ..the. oath>you ,tooJ:;:,,for._1;.he,,~.,,'><~-~~.Jl"1~§

20 fraternity?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you go throu13"b. !1e..2ing?

A. Oh ~"'es.
23

~ Did you promise never to reveal what went on in

24

25 that hazing?
'• '•

A.

2 Q. Ha~,;e you e--:.rer revealecl that?

3 It was rather ju--:1enile f11hen yc·u look back

4 on it.

5 Q. vn1e11 you finisl1ed up at Broi:..;n' Yihen T.Vas the next

6 time that you saw ~·1r. Hunt that yo11 can recall?

7 I don't remember whether I saw Howard at the

8 University -- Well, the next time I saw him would be 1974

9 because he was out of the country most of the time.

10 Q. BetT..reen 1939 or when you finished Brown University

11 I guess it would have been in the forties sometime?

12 l942.

13 Q. Between l942 and 1974, did you have any detailed

14 contact with him?

15 No. I had correspondence with him.

16 Q. In close to 30 or 40 years, a lot goes on with

17 an individual, is that correct?.

18 A. Sure.

20 character developed in that intervening 30 years other than·.

21 what you know from talking to him since l974?

22 A. 1'To ..

23 Q. You don 1 t }:now r.'/hat pressuYes he ...... as U!lder I Tnihat

24 oaths he may have taken, what involvement he may have had

25 in really anything, do you, of your own personal knowledge?

.• -.; ..

2 Q. You are aware that ;,Ir. Hunt was convicted and

3 ir~ fact pleaded guilty to conspiracy, dcn't you?

;,_ Yes.
4

5 Q. Also, he rt1as con"'(;-ict.ed and pled guilty of burglar2:'·,

6 is that right?

7 A. I don't think he pleaded guilty to burglary.

8 Q. Well, let me ask you first of all if you v1ere

9 asked a question Prior to 1973, prior to your knowing

10 that 11e had beeri. convicted, would you have believed he

11 would have been convicted or pled guilty to conspiracy and

12 burglary?

13 A. No, I wouldn't.

14 Q. So as far as your opinion of his reputation and

15 your own personal knowledge of him, it would have been

16 inaccurate at t.~at time, wouldn't it?

17 That he be convicted?

18 Q. Yes.

20 Q. And you have no idea whether your personal opinion

of his reputation at b~is point is similarly iuaccurate,

21

do \.tOU?
·I
22

23 A. No, I think my opinion is accurate.

24 Q. So your opinion would have been inaccurate back

25 tl1.en, but accurate nolv?

 ~Vell r I can t2 l].. ycu. r,.1i1<::"~ t

conviction.

Q. You are aware that he pled guilty?

A. That's right, but this Nas a politic al -- I 1

l1a,le

seen pecple in t11e t•lafia \·Talk a~,;ay ,-lit.h much less tl1an v1hat
1

11.e was punished T,vi th.

Q. Well, sir, burglar.z is not a political crime,

is it?

A. I don 1 t have tl1e record here, l•lr. Boucll.ard, of

T11hether .t:•Ir. Hw.-it \Yas convicted of burglary. I think he

was convicted of conspiracy.

~ I am going to read to you from interrogatories

that Mr. Hunt swore and answered under oath.

A. Okay.

Q. The question was:

"For all criminal actions to which you :were a

party, please state the offense charged, the jurisdiction

of said action, the plea entered and the disposition of

Then the answer was;

11
"U .. S.. versus J. Gordon Liddy, et al. , \·Tho v1as

one of '!:he ciefenUan ts 't,;ith f•lr. Ht1n t _

"Plaintiff " Mr. Hunt 11

-- was convicted on

a plea of guilty in the United States District Court for

the District of Columbia in Washington, D.C. of the crime

 ~· ,.· .•
I'I
of cor.spirac::.r,. Co11nt I; burglary (~ou11ts I: anrJ III "

2 arid it goes on for otl1er counts tl1at v1e::ce la·ter dismissed.

3 The burglary count was affirmed in addition to

4 the co:-ispiracy count 1vhicl1 v·1as affirmed on his plea of

5 guilty / by his o~vn statement~

6 Again, that would not be consistent with your

7 opinion of his reputation in the community or your own

8 personal opinion of his integrity as a man, would it?

9 A. His conviction?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. No.

12 Q. When you asked or when you brought this Spotlight

13 article up to Mr. Hunt --

14 A. I think I brought i t to his attention.

~ You brought it to his attention after the postman

15
·.
16 told you about the article. My impression is that what he

17 told you His basic response was that he was upset about

18 it and that he had never been in Dallas.

-~.....<;~~"""~~~19 ti'

20 time?

21 A. He was very upset about it.

22 Q. Your recollection is tl1c.t he di<l not specificall::t

23 deny being involved in the assassination at that time, did

24 he?

25 A. Oh sure, he did. Wnen I discussed this article

 r11ith him?

2 Q. Yesr sir.

3 A. Of course.

4 Q. I believe my recollection of your testimony is

5 that he said he had never been in Dallas and there wasn't

6 anything in the testimony at that time when you gave i t about

7 an hour ago whether he specifically --

8 A. Well, it was an omission on my part.

9 Q. So your testimony at this time is that he did

10 deny that to you?

11 A. Yes, that he had nothing to do with the

12 assassination. It was ludicrous to him.

13 Q. You stated that Mr. Hunt's reputation in the

14 community for truth and veracity and for integrity was good

15 and that your opinion of him was that his -- Your own

16 opinion was that he was truthful and a man of integrity, is

17 that correct?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Can you tell me specifically who you may or may

20 not have talked to about his integrity and his truth and

21 veracity in the community?

22 A. Well, a former agent in charge of the FBI,

23 Kenneth Whittaker who lives around the corner from Mr. Hunt

24 as a neighbor who subsequently met Mr. Hunt after he

25 arrived here as a resident of Miami.

..
.• .'
,,
I\"
II Q. Do you !-.::ior.-: i,-1!12 th er this agent, tl1i;.,; man you just

2 mentioned, knet:J about i'·1r.. l-Iunt 1 s con-.;;i(:tion?

3 A. Yes, he did.
4 Q. And apparently tha·t coni;.liction did not ha,te any

5 effect on that man's opini0n of t1lr ~ Hu11.t?

6 A. After he met Mr. Hunt, it had no effect on him.

7 Q. Is there anybody else you may have talked to?

8 A. I can't recall many agents that I introduced

9 Howard to, who knew of his conviction in the so-called

10 i·laterga·te case, that -;veren T ·t fa\rorably impressed with hirn.

11 Q. With him as a person?

12 A. Right. They found it rather incongruous that

13 this man was a convicted felon and the press and --

14 Q. What you' re telling me, sir, is that these people

15 met him personally and liked him?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And based on that -- Primarily that alone --

18 they made the opinion that he had integ:::i ty and that 11e ;vas

.19 .

20 A. Well, I know Mr. Whittaker thinks that he is a

21 man of integrity.

22 Q. Do you knO\'l upon •,,;hat basis tl1at conclusion \\-'2.S

23 n1ad.e?

24 A. Mr. Whittaker is a neighbor and has had association

25 with Hr. Hunt and in the course of that association, developed

 t:-iis opiI1i0;1.

2
Q. Back in t...1-ie si:.:ties, neither you nor I•ir. ~·7hi ttaker

3 had any connection 1,.;ith L.,lr. I-Iunt?

5 Q. Have you talked to an:/ body in the corrununi ty other

6 than agents; for instance, the postman or anyone else that

7 knew of Hr. Hunt's conviction for conspiracy and burglary

8 in the Watergate case?

9 A. I talked to my wife about it.

10 Q. Anyone else?

11 A. My wife has the same opinion that I have and she

12 has known Howard as long as I have and knows Mrs. Hunt and

13 his family.

14 Q. Is there anybody else in the community in general,

15 not friends of yours -- just in general, are you aware of

16 any reputation of Mr. Hunt?

17 A. I can't think of any, outside of say the agents

18 who are presently living --

..... ., ···19 ...:. .. ·;

20 you're talking about really is FBI agents, not the community

21 in general?

22

23 Q. I 11nders tar1d t11a t they are part o E the com..rnuni ty /

24 but I'm saying

25 A. And they have perhaps a better sensitivity about

'

sizin.g 12b1 peo1)le tl1~J.n rr:ernbers of the c:onununi t~:{ ..

2 Q. In general / v1l1at 'i.'las the feeling irr tl-1e FBI about

3 the Watergate break-in?

4 MR. RUBIN: I object to this line of questioning

5 on the grounds that the subject of this laws1.1i t is the

6 alleged defamatory article in the August 14, 1978 edition

7 of the Spotlight and not a plea of guilty in the

8 Watergate situation.

9 HR. BOUCHARD: I agree v1i th you / ho\vever, L·1r.

10 Rubin, you have made a point. of bringing out this

11 particular paragraph concerning his reputation and

12 iateg:r:ity.

13 What I'm getting at -- I'm voir diring this wit:"1ess

14 on his opinion as to the truth and veracity and the

15 reputation for that in the community of FBI agents.

16 I think it's relevant to the reputation testimony,

17 as to what they thought in general of the Watergate

18 conspiracy conviction.

20 that this was a political conviction. Well, this

21 kind of testimony indicates that he may have a general

22 bias agair1st. those con•.ric:tions in toto and my question

23 goes to l.vhet..--ier the FBI comrnuni·ty l1as that same opinion.

24 THE WITNESS: I can only speak for myself as to

25 what that opinion is.

 I!
I did.11' t discuss ~111.3..t their opir..ion :,..;as of :.:1e

2 \Vatergate s i tua.tic:in.

3 BY NR. BOUCHARD:

4 Q. 1-Ir.. Dunn / v1hen you v1ere J..n i:he FBI / these

5 con'i.rictions carne out, t11e ~·7atergate scandal happened and

6 11r. Hunt \'las con-1icted along wit.11 some others

7 A. Several others, yes.

8 Q. This must have been a subject of great talk and

9 speculation around the country in FBI offices.

10 A. Gossip.

11 Q. In talking to other FBI agents, in general what

12 ~vas their Did there come a general opinion -- i'lere

13 these as you said before ripoli ti cal con'Iictions 11 or \Vere

14 they actual -- Did they express any kind of opinion as to

15 the nature of these convictions?

16 A. No, they never expressed any opinion to me.

17 Q. Now, sir, during the period of the Bay of Pigs

18 In-=rasion up through t.J1e John F. Kennedy assassination / :y·ou

~~~"~·:r~· .~~-.1_9 :; ~-./:~r-31;.:-~'{~-f:~a+,;:-C!-~.~s~d -~~q_ ,-~1r -~-~:·~~t ...?.~- ._P-a~l~~Y .•~<7=}.?:3-~·-,rf>~.·~~2..t;~,-~~-~<?~-s . ,~~ii,b~.,
20 with he or his friends, did you?

21 A. Nor I did not~

22 Q. So you really wou.lcin' t. Kno;v T,vha t. his inner fe~li~gs

23 rdere at that time about John F. Kennedy, during the Bay

24 of Pigs?

25 No.
 Q. [vir. Hunt did 11a\re rna.ny friends :i.n the Cuba11

2 commu11it:{ 11ere in Iviiami, did he not?

3 A. That 1 s \Vhat I am told.

4 Q. Who were you told by?

5 A. I can't say. He 11as so many -- I 'm sure li.e has

6 friends in the community.

7 Q. In your association with him since 1978, you

8 have never really i.n your association with him -- You ha-.reri 1 t

9 been close to many Cuban. people in the com.~unity during

10 your association with Mr. Hunt?

11 A. Oh yes.

12 Q. You have?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So he does have friends in the Cuban community?

15 A. Yes, I have had association.

16 Q. And basically during that period of time, whether.·

17 or not Mr. Hunt may have made ~tatements regarding his

18 feelings toward John F. Kennedy as far as his hatred or

20 A. He hap never expressed any such hatred to me.

21 Q. As I understand i.t, the only discussion you have

22 had i;vi th t lr
1 ¥ Hunt abo11t his hat::-ed or lack 0£ hatred of

23 John F. Kennedy r.vould have been after this article \.;as

24 written, is that correct?

25 A. Probably, yes, to the best of my recollection.

 Q. Ancl :?Ossibly 2~ft.e1~ tl·!is litigation ·,v·as filed, is

2 that right?

3 A. Give me that question again.

4 Q. As far as the time

5 (Thereupon ~~ere was an off-the-record discussion~)

6 BY MR. BOUCHARD:

7 Q. I don't think Hr. Rubin asked you -- Did you

8 discuss at any time with !1r. Hunt whether or not he ever

9 expressed any hatred of John F. Kennedy?

10 A. i.'Jo, I ha,1e not discussed tl-iat T,vith him~ In rr.y

11 associations with him, he never expressed any hatred.

12 Q. When this article came out, either during the

13 litigation or during your conferences with Mr. Hunt if any

14 before this deposition today, did you ever specifically

15 discuss paragraph 10 of the article where i t states that

16 i t is well known that Hunt hated John F. Kennedy and blamed

17 him for the Bay of Pigs disaster?

18 A. I don't think I specifically discussed that, no.

•···-' ..,...,.••
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20 a participant in the Watergate burglary who by his own

admission pleaded guilty -- Legal or illegal, has led a

21
I
22 I1eck of an interesting life, is that correct?

23 A. Wl1at is that?

24 Q. He has led a very interesting life?

25 A. Yes, of course ..
 Q. Pc.rt. of that inte.::-esti.ng life you rnust ha•,re

2 discussed ~·ri th l1im duri!1g the last

3 Sure, where li.e was stationed, certainly.

4 Q. Now Mr. Hunt being an author and being a lecturer

5 apparently has strong opinions on many things, is that

6 correct?

7 Well, like what?

8 Q. Opinions about the CIA, opinions about Harchetti's

9 book, opinions about the Bay of Pigs Invasion, that sort of

10 thing.

11 A. All right.

12 Q. Did you ever discuss the Bay of Pigs Invasion

13 with him?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Specifically, did you discuss any involvement that

16 he may have had or didn't have in that operation?

17 A. As I recall, and this is a matter of record, he

18 left this area on or about April -- the first week of April.

1;,o;,,.,.,.•. ,.,,"'"'.:;"""19 .,. . · . ·~ ,"'1l;,!j~)i(as~?·bpb.li t i cal >;adY:isor:.•assigned,.,,to,,;some'i',Gubari·~~/doWri~~~~

20 here.

21 He left and went to the director's office before

22 t11is thing took place.

23 Q. Did he have any invol •.rement in t11e planning or the

24 execution?

25 A. I ne-.;;er got into that.

 Q. DiC. he e•.rer e:.:press to ::.toi.i wll.~{ tt1e Ba:z.· of Pigs

2 failed?

3 Yes, I think so. It was a lack of air power which

4 \Ve all kne~v .

5 Q. Did he ever discuss John F. Kennedy 1 s commitment

6 or lack of commitment to the Bay of Pigs?

7 A. He never mentioned specifically.

8 Q. JFK's lack of commitment or criticism of JP~,

9 whether by Nr. Hunt or anyone else, was a matter of

10 speculation during that period, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes, there was speculation.

12 Q. And you never discussed that particular aspect of

13 the Bay of Pigs Invasion with Nr. Hunt at all?

14 A. Well, we discussed it as to why there was no·

15 air cover for these people going in on the beaches.

16 Q. Did he ever express to you any lack of confidence

17 in JFK's commitment to the Bay.of Pigs Invasion?

18 A. Lack of confidence?

20 A. No, not specifically.

21 Q. Did he ever mention JFK to you at all in any

22 conte}<:t?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What context was that?

25 A. I think he said that he met him up in Boston in

 1940 soritetime in a social aspect_

2 Q. Did you ever discuss JFK as a President or JFK's

3
actions in regard to the Bay of Pigs Invasion?
4
& I don't recall specifically on that, Mr. Bouchard.
5
I have my own opinion which I don't want to insert here.
6
Q. Other thanthe FBI memos that came across your
7
desk, were you privy to any confidential FBI memos that were
8
not disseminated out to the field?
9
In which case?
10
Q. Regarding the --
11
A. Kennedy assassination?
12
Q. Yes.
13
No, I was not.
14
Q. So if there were high level memorandums or high
15
level discussions, you would not have been privy to those?
16
& High level discussions, no. Where Mr. Hoover
17
was involved, I was considerab·ly down on the totem pole.
18
Q. That goes also for the inner workings of the CIA

20
planning to do -- You have no personal knowledge of that?
21
A. No,I worked with them at the field division level.
22
Q. IYith regard to your task of going out to the
23
federal correctional institution -to interview Mr. Hunt,
24
at that time did the agents or did the people who asked
25
you to interview him in connection with this thing know that
 --..
(> .
. r.:: :'~.
you were a close personal friend of his?

A. Sure / I told t11e Bureau supertJi.sor p

2
Q. At that time, was he just a witness or was he
3
suspected of anything or what was his involvement that you
4
were supposed to and investigate?
5

A. Somewhere along the line You see, the Senate

6
Committee had an idea that Castro was behind the murder of
7
John Roselli. For what reason, I don't know.
8
Some~..;here out there, someone came up v;i th Hov1ard 1 s
9
name, among vii th several Cubans residing in the South Florida
10
area who might possibly be able to assist us in either
11
confirming or denying that Mr. Castro was behind this murder.
12
Now I discussed this with a man in the Bureau,
13
a Bureau supervisor, and he said that the resident agent
14
that covers Eglund had more than enough work and since he
15
knew that I was acquainted with Mr. Hunt, that it was
16
perfectly agreeable with him for me to interview Mr. Hunt.
17
Q. To get to the point of my question, Hr. Hunt was
18

. not a suspect of anything?

br-iry:.-.;,,~»-~~19 ..~ ,~~!.e'~,tr~~rp;;~ :=;j~~*~!:·• ,.:~.~~.;.;..;.1,,;.~,..,.~,..,._ --:o~\i~?~_··~-.;,".···,i';;-;.;'.-i~--~""';-,~~~·£"-V.~;:·,.,_,,..,.,,_~.,,_t:r"'*':-..,.,c:;..:_.~:,.-.•.-~~ ·.;.·:-.tP"'.;;.~,..; ·

A. No, absolutely not.

20
~ He was an informational witness?
21
Right, he would be a source of information along
22
r,..1ith 20 othe~ Cuba_ri people in,rolved in the Cuban aspect of
23
this.
24
Q. Did Hr. Hunt ever express to you any personal
25
 o:::ii11ion as to anyone else 1 s in~tol'\[ernent in the Kennedy

2 ass ass ina tio11?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did Mr. Hunt e'Ter express to you the effect that

5 his guilty plea and conviction to conspiracy and burglary

6 had on his life?

7 A. I guess i t was a traumatizing experience. Here

8 is a man who never had as much as a traffic ticket conviction

9 in his life and he is convicted in the Watergate case.

10 Q. Did he say how it specifically affected his business,

11 his writing, his lecturing or anything like that?

12 A. No, he didn't, except that maybe he gleaned

13 something from the experience to write a book, I don't know.

14 Q. W'nat about the effect on his reputation -- Did

15 he ever talk to you about how that federal conviction and

16 prison term affected his reputation in the FBI community,

17 the CIA community or any other community?

18 A. He never mentioned that to me. He knew how I

"""""-~~19ow """"'"'""felt .about,,;L.t;,~1 ,.,He",neyer; 0 ~xplo~_ed ..~!lt""";;r~a~~:fo:P.1"'-IJl';'~..;-r~~..~,;;,

20 Q. He never acted upset about i t as far as you were

21 concerned?

22 A. Well, he was upset about it, certainly. I would

23 be upset too with 3 3 months ID. confinement for the charge he

24 was convicted of.

25 Based on my own experience, I have seen people

 r.•1alk ._n
·~·
\·il a lot more seriou.s crimes than tl1at.

2 Q. Regardin9 your k:nof.vledge of 1~1r c Hunt since you

3 picked back up your relationship in 1974, can you give me

4 or summarize your knowledge of Mr. Hunt in the public

5 sector; that is, not your own personal friendship or jogging

6 or exercising with him -- In the public sphere, what is

7 your knowledge of him as a public figure?

8 What is my opinion?

9 Q. Tell me your knowledge -- What you know about Hr.

10 Hunt as a public figure.

11 A. Well, again, it's my opinion, but as a public

12 figure, he is a person of good character.

13 Q. I think you misunderstood. Let me rephrase the

14 question.

15 Specifically, what do you know about his

16 activities as a public figure -- Writings or lecturing or

17 television appearances, that sort of thing.

18 A. I read most of his books.

19 Q. How many books have you read?

20 A. That's quite a question. I think I read the

21 first book he ever wrote. I know I read the last book he

22 has written so far.

23 Q. Has he talked to you about the lecture tours

24 that he goes on?

25 A. Yes.
 ~ Did he lecture extensively?

2 A. As I recollect, he did, right after he was out

3 of prison.

4 Q. Have you seen him on television?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many times do you think you have seen him

7 on television?

8 A. Down here, I have probably seen him half a dozen

9 times. I have also seen him on Mr. Buckley's program on

10 Channel 2.

11 That's about it.

12 Q. And that's been since he was released from prison?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which was when, to your knowledge?

15 A. I think i t was sometime in 1974.

16 Q. In his activities since he has been in Miami, he

17 often leaves town to lecture and go on personal appearances

18 and so forth?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Have you read any articles or interviews with him

21 where he discussed his role or lack of his role in the

22 Kennedy assassination?

23 A. I don't recall, i'lr. Bouchard, specifically. I

24 really don't.

25 MR. BOUCHARD: Nothing further.

 P.EDI?-.ECT EX..~i:1I1·1ATI0l'l

2 BY ~11R. RUBI1'T:

3 Q. During your work with the FBI investigating the

4 Kennedy case, did you come across the findings of t..'1e

5 expert in photography, Mr. Shanyfelt (phonetic)? Do you

6 know anything about that?

7 A. No. I know Lyndell Shanyfelt is one of the best

8 photographers we ever had, but I know nothing of his findings.

9 Q. The fact that Mr. Hunt pleaded guilty in the

10 Watergate situation, would you consider that a more truthful

11 approach to his situation than a plea of not guilty and

12 then being found guilty after a trial?

13 HR. BOUCHARD: I object to the form of the question.

14 It's leading.

15 MR. RUBIN: You may answer.

16 THE WITNESS: I have forgotten the question.

17 BY MR. RUBIN:
18 Q. Is a plea of guilty more honest than a plea of

19 not guilty and then being found guilty after a trial?

20 In my judgment, yes, Mr. Rubin.

21 MR. BOUCHARD: Objection.

22 BY ~1R. RUBIN:

23 Q. Is your answer based on your experience as an

24 FBI agent?

25 Yes ..
 Q. Eas l"l= - Hunt gone on arJ.y of these lect11re trips

2 and tot1rs / to your knoi;vledge r since this article carne out?

3 A. I can't answer that. I can't recall the

4 expanse of time.

5 MR. RUBIN: I have no further questions.

6 MR. BOUCHARD: I have a question.
7 RECROSS EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. BOUCHARD:

9 Q. Hr. Rubin asked the question which I objected to

10 He asked you the question about a plea of not guilty and a

11 plea of guilty.

12 You understand that a plea of not guilty is a

13 constitutional right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It has nothing to do with the truth or veracity of

16 a not guilty plea, does it?

17 A. I know that.

18 Q. And you still feel that a guilty plea is more

19 honest than a not guilty plea?

20 A. In his case, I would say yes.

21 Q. But you have never discussed his case with him?

22 A. No, not specifically.

23 HR. BOUCHARD: I have no further questions.

24 MR. RUBIN: Do you waive signature?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

 -,

(Tli.ereupon ti1e deposition v1as concluded at 11: 45 a ~m.)

2 (P~eading ~ signing and notice of filing r,vere wai •1ed ~)

4 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

5 STATE OF FLORIDA )
SS.
6 COUNTY OF DADE )

7 I, RITA BERNSTEIN, C.S.R., a Notary Public in

8 and for the State of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that

9 I reported the deposition of EDWAPJJ J. DUNN at the time and

10 place hereinabove set fort11; that the witness \'las first duly

11 sworn by me; and that the foregoing pages numbered from l

12 to 64, inclusive, constitute a true and correct transcription

13 of my shorthand report of the deposition of said witness.

14 I F,URTHER CERTIFY that I am neither attorney nor

15 counsel for, nor related to nor employed by any of the

16 parties connected with the action, nor financially interested

17 in the action.

18 WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL in the City of Miami

19 Beach, Dade County, Florida, this ) +-c7-a.ay of December, 1981.

20

21
J RITJ>/BERNSTEIN, C.S.R.
22
MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:
23
August 11, 1985
24

25
 UNITED STATES DI STf<:I CT COURT
SOUTHERN DI:3TRICT OF FLORIDA
• MIAMI DI')I SI OM
2

3 1 NO. 80-1121-CIV-JWK
E. HOWARD HUNT, JR.,
)
4 )
Pla.intiff,
)
5 ) t·'l i .";r.rr1 i , Fl .i:1r i d.3.
) Feqrua.ry 5., 1 '7'85
6 )
LI BERTY LOBBY, INC.
)
!..
I'''
-· --.. '•.
"
'·
7 ) -;:'
.Defendant.
)
F!LED by D.C.
8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
9 NOV 8.1QRi:;
10 l ~t,~~~7~~. tl~Jl.~y··~-~-
TRANSCF: I PT OF PF;OCEECrIMGS :.. ~._:.::!:!.:".~:'.. ... ~
11 BEFORE THE HDt,lORAE:LE ;JAME:3.. l. L~.KEHOE
AND A ,JU.RY ·- ............... , --·--
12
•
13
..
· APF'EARAr,JCES:
14
WILLIAM A. SNYDER, JR, ESQUIRE, and
15 KEl.)!N A. DUNt,lE, ESQUIRE,
on behalf of the Plaintiff
16
MAF:f< LAt•.JE, ESG!IJ I RE, .3.n d
17 FLEMit::JG LEE' ESOUI RE
on behalf of the Defendant
18

19
REPORTED 8'{ ~
20
Paul Hafer l i ng,
21 Court Reporter
22

23

24

25

'',.
 2

"""'·t•.
(
THE COURT: Couns&l for the Plaintiff, you may make
•
2 your Closing Argument.

3 MR. Ladies and gentlemen, we have now

SNYDEF::
I
4 cornpleted the presentation of the evidence in this case and

5 the two attorneys will have an opportunity to make what is

6 called Closing Argument.

The ['.ourt has al 1 c,1,,.Jed each £.i de t1,\IC1 hc1urs because

7

8 the Plaintiff has the burden of proof. I am a 1 1 oe<Je d to sp 1 i t

9 up my two hours and my intention is to open for about an hour

10 and fifteen minutes ind Mr. Lane w!ll go on for two-hours and

l l
then I will close for about another forty-fi0e minutes after

12

Puttin1;r fir--::.t thing·::. fir-st, I want to th.;.nk )"'OU fcir

.···· 13
.. >'our .3.ttention thrc1ughout this trial. '{~1tJ Knol.·.J, it is not
14

15 easy sitting and 1 istening and trying to get a lot of

16 information through one~s ears. In this society tha.t we 1 ive

17

18 you will get a document to look at, and most of the

19 infor-mation comes through your ears and that it tough to

20
absorb and I have been watchlng you and I noticed that you

21
have been paying Keen attention to ever-ythlng that has been

said and etJen some of those depositions l.~hich could get

22

23 pretty boring because you do not have a·chance to see the

24 real person, just a reader on the witness stand impersonating

25 the person you 1 i stened to with gre-3.t at!_ent ion, and I t..iJant

(~~. ,..
··,··-..;-_, ......
 3

.---.-~

(
you .
to know that Mr. Hunt~-who
~
has come into this Court

2 ·::.ee~~ing jus.tice\ is i.;eI·/' v.1ell ple.::r.sed 1,0ith the attentic1n /'OU

3 have glven his case and the e~tire case so, again, thank you.

4 Closing Arguments are not evidence. They are the

5 1 av.J/'ers·' cha.nee tc 1 tr·/' tc• put s.orneth i ng together, sorne of the

6 important things that you heard ·1n six days of testimony, and

7 it is. not .an ea.s/' .jc1b becd.use I a.rn tr/'ing to condense six

8 days of testimony into one our and a half, so I can only hit

9 the high spots and your recollection is ~hat really governs.

10 It is your recollection, what you, the members of the Jury,

11 reca.11 being testified, that ceiunts..

12 What I would 1 iKe to do not is to step back fpom

13 this forest of trees. You hears the most minute details

14 abcrut the most rninute s.ub._iects, -3".1 l ~~ini:js of 1 i ttle bit·::. and

15 piece·;. of testirnon}' here and there. t.Jhat I 1,0ould like to ijo

16 is step back to looK at the entire forest. Let us ncit rnis·:;

17 the forest for•the trees, and al 1 I vJant you to do, at each

18 step of the way as we go along through this, just to apply

19 your 1~ood, Gc1d gi Jen, commcrn sense, /'our horse sense,_ and ask
1

20 youselves if somebody says this and somebody say that, which

21 is mor2 1 ikely to be so, I i1Jill 1eat•e it tci other people;

22 very sophisticated analysis of the intricate part and bits of

23 testimony·. I simply want to step back and look at the

~ 24 Ol.)eral l , tiroad picture~

'
25

(.~·..;.,;:

-
 4

' I have five things I want to really talk to you

•
2 about in my hour and f.ifteen minutes.

3 to go over with you aoain why this article that Mr-. Hunt is
- i

4 in here suing about is false. That i =· the fir-st step tha.t a

5 1 ibe1 Pla.intiff ha.s tc1 pro 1Je, tha.t the article is false.

7 to recover, Mr. Hunt must prove not only that i t was false,

8 but that Liberty Lobby Knew i t was false, publ lshed i t with

9 recKless disregard of whether i t was true or false of not.

10 l;Je .~re 1;ic1ing to e-~.tatil ish to :~c~ur· s_.3.ti-=:.fa. cticin, .I tiel ie 1.,ie,

11 that the people at Liberty Lobby, Louis Carta and James

12 Tucker knew i t was false, did not care whether i t was false,

and ent~rtalned serious doubts about !ts truth. That is the

13 /
14 -=-e,:ond bi,~ i tern.

15 I would 1 iKe to then say a word about Victor

r·,1archetti' lJJh)1 l,A]E' thin~~ tha.t he wa.s tel 1 i.ng the truth, in
16

fact, when he ~aid this article was based-on rumors.·and

17

rumors, rumors, and ~t is his speculation about rumors.

18

19 I would 1 ike to talk about the White House Plumber-s

20 a.nd !,,.Ja ter·gate.

21
As I looked ove~ my notes last night, some 90 to 95

22 per cent of Mr. Lane's Cross Examination of Mr. Hunt has to

23 do wlth the Watergate events and the White House Plumbers.

24 I think ther-e are r-easons for that, and we will go

25 into it, but I wanted to explor-e what those people did and

'... _,,..,
 5

.
why it was that good upstaoding
. man '
1 ike Mr. Hunt,. who had a

2 spectacular record in the War and since 1974, why -1t. was that

3 1 i tt1 e period frorr1 1·7·73 to 1'?(4 he 1,1;ent a. little h-3.Yl1Ji re~

;

4 I/Jent a. i ttle h-3.)'1,tJir·e a. nd 1 ie,j to .3. t.Ja.terga.te Grand ,Jur·y·.

5 Mr. Lane has certainly established he did it. I

6 want to explore ~hy he did i t . I want to talk to you about

7 Marita Lorenz, who has this very, very interesting tale to

8 tell of a caravan of two cars with her and Frank Sturgis and

9 some Cubans arriving from Miami to Dallas and arriving in

10 Dallas the day before John Kennedy was killed, and as a

l l second car in the two-car caravan consisting of Lee Harvey

12 (1-::.1,11.;i.l d, scime o·ther people .=-..nd a bunch of guns., sutirnach i ne

13 guns.

14 We will go through her testimony land s~e i f any of

15 i t meets your test of truth.

16 Fina11>~, I JJ.J.3.nt tc1 t.3.lk .3.tn:iut damage-=:., i f t"'lr·. Hunt

17 ha.s been dama.ge-d, t<.ih-3.t is he entitled to.

18 The Judge will tell you there are two kinds of

19 darnages. ·One is cal 1 eci compensa tor>r ija.rn3.ges and one is

20 called punitive darn.3.ges. There a.re differences in the

21 purpose·,;. of tho·,;.e h"o types of damages. I want to explore

22

23 Let us back up and start in the beginning. Why is

24 the article false? If you would be so kind as to turn to

25 >'our copies of the ar·ticle or follow along up here at the

.... ·~
\.
----~-,
 6

.,
'
i I do not have time to point out
bo.?.r d, ladies and gentlemen,
• •

2 all of the falsities in this article. I can only point ou·t

3 sorrie of th em. If I have t irr1e fI 1,..;j 11 corne b21.ck and do some

4 more, but let us go through some of them.

5 First of all, here is the first paragraph of the

6 ar-ticle, a fer;.; rnonths ago there r;.J.3..-='· a meeting, it i..·Ja~-

7 attended by some high level, clandestine officers and some

8 former top officials of the Agency.

9 La.di es a.nd gentl ernen,. hot.·J do I pr·ove there t,\Ja·;; not .a.

10 meeting? How do I prove something did not happen? It is a

11 tr i cf'..

12 What I did was to go to the former top officials and

13 say, did you attend such a meeting? Did you ever hear of

14 such a meeting? So I went to Ri_cbard Helms, the former

15 Director of the 1:.-::entr·al Inte11 i 1~ence Agenc:-/ and a t.•Jorker in

16 that agency for many years, and I said to him~ Mr. Helms, did

17 you attend sue~ a meeting and he said, No~

11
18
0
Did you ever hear of such a meeting?

19 He said, No.

20 I then went to Admiral Stansfield Turner who in

21 1978, when this article was pub! ished, was the Director of

22 the Ag.enc/~~ He was brought in b:;,.r Jirr1m/' Carter to =:.vJeep clean

23 and surely if there is a meeting to plan the Agency's high

24 level strategy with regard to the assass~nation of President

25

I -• .
\.
 7

...,...
I
' Kennedy,
. he J.-'.JCitJld kncr1;;.1 a.bc•ut it, s.o r,.Je depc sed him .a-.nd sai1j,_
1

2 ''Admiral Turner, did you attend such a meetlng? 11

3 11 j-...Jo. n

4 11
Have you ever heard of such a meeting? 11

5 n i'·~O " II

6 That is the onl)' evidence Y.c1u have, l-3.die-.::. and

7 gentlemen, and I would submit based on the evidence that

8 there r,..J.:=r.·3 no ·3uch rneeting ancl thi·;. ·=.t.3.ternent in the fir·st tuJo

9 par-a,~ra.phs is false.

10 Lc1c1k .3.t .the next -.::.entence, a limited hangi:)ut is -=·P>"'

13 Is that true? The testimony you have got is that

14 the A1;iency dcn?S not use the ter.-m, that terrn 1/J.3.S coined in

15 l,.Ja.tergate b}' .Jc,hn Ehr·l ichrn.;.n, ,_...Jhc~ told F'resident Nixon let us

16 ha1.,1e a limited h-3.ngout ..

17 Nfxon•came back and said how about a modified

18 1 imi ted hangout?

19 Go to the next paragraph. We will probably never

20 find out who masterminded the assass1nation of J.F.K. or why.

21 That is a statement of fact, too. Remember you have

22 had .3. presidenti.3.l cornmission, 1975, a committee of the

23 Sen.3. te c1f the Lin i ted State·:; in 1 '??t.., .3_ comm i i t tee of the
24 House of Representatives of the United States in 1978, all

25 looking into the same thing a.nd you had the efforts of the

·.....
,.... -~';'"'.

' Committee, and he certainl.Y played it straight when he was in

•
2 pr::ivJer,. dea.1 i ni;i r,..Ji th the Hcruse Ccrrrimi ttee.

3 Who is telling the tquth? Well, there were several

'
4 pc•ep le I,•Jho i.....Jer·e crn the Chur·ch Cc1rr1rr1 it tee. Thi-=· 1,tJas a

5 Comrni ttee c1f ~;enators, the IJn i ted States Senate appointed to

6 look into this matter, and the Chairman was Senator Frank

7 Church cif Idaho and the Ch-3..i rrna.n John Toi,ver of Texas and

8 F'hilip A. Har·t of t1ichigan ar11j ::::ena.tor· l,tJalter F. t"·londale of

9 t--·1 i nnesota.

10 You have heard of that name. There was Senator

11 Huddleston of Kentucky, Senator Robert Morgan of North

12 c:ar-ol i na. Gary Hart of Colorado.

13 Tenne-=.see. Sena.ti::ir Ba.rr>' (31=il1j1,vater of Arizona. Senator M2.cl<

14 McTheis of Maryland., Richard Schweitzer of Pennsylvania.

15 Are these the Kinds of men that you trust who trust

16 the conspiracy theory that say this is whitewash after

17 whitewash afte~ whitewash.

18 Go to the next page because it gets worse. Under

19 the paragraph head} lne they will hang Hunt, you have chief

20 amoni;i those to be exposed by the ner,\J inve·=-ti•;iatic1n 1,\Ji 11 _be E.

21 Howard.Hunt. l<Jel l, '"e know that it did not _happen, did it?

22 His luck has run out, the CIA decided to sadrifice and the

23 Agency is furious for having dragged i t into the Nixon mess

24 for having blackmailed it after he was arrested.

25

..
'\.._...
r!

10

/-·
!. The testimony is !hat he never dragged the CIA into
•
2 the Nixon mess. There were people during Watergate, some of

3 the Defendants were qoina to say let us pin i t all on the

- - i
4 Howard Hunt would have no part of it.

5 nothing to do with the Agency and the people from the Agency

7 Watergate on the CIA.

8 Having blackmailed it after he was arrested, not a

\_
9 pa.reel of e J
1 i cfence to tha.t effect.

10 Look at the next paragraph, second sentence. His

11 reputation, integr·it>~ ha.s been de·=.tro7~ed. t'-Jov.J, the~/ rna:y· have

12 been destroyed in the Watergate period 1 but what happened

13 after that, Mr. Hunt received that in 1974, and I decided

14 th.3.t the onl>~ c.our-~-e of -3.ction fcir hirn i,\t.3".·::. to tell the tr·uth,

15 the whole truth, and n6th1ng.but the truth, but that was ·not

16 all, tc1 purge hirn·;;.elf, to cle.~nse the record.

17 told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth

18 from then on, he had to go back, undo any false statement he

19 had made in the past and that is what he did.

20 The items that Mr. Lane was reading from, you

21 noticed .;.11 the little red seal of the ~fational Archives for

22 the Library of Congress, those are the museums of the United

23 States Government.
.• Mr. Lane went to the Museum and said, Give me the 11
24
'
25

·...~ ...
 8
..
.
Federal Bureau of Investiqation
-
re1e.?.s.e in n~~

l 711

2 Hunt 1;.)as ncit one of tt-.:_e Tr·arr1p-:=., the i_;;iuy v.r i th the ba 1 d head in

3 Dea.l y Plaza so that staternent i i s false~

4 Look at the next statement, once again the good

5 fol ks of Middle Amer i C:o. VJOU l d be hoodi,o.J inked by the Go•Jernmen t

6 and its a.11 ies. in the Estatil ishment ne1,..;s. rnedia.

7 Hor;.J do 1,\Je dea.l t1Ji th tha-.t? Is tha.t a statement C)f

8 opinion? Is that a statement of fact?

9 I think this one is a. l i t t l e bit cunning, because

10 when you say once again the good folks of Middle America

11 would be hoodwinked b/ the Government, that irnpl ies that they

12 have already been hoodwinked once before.

13 Now, you will have to make up your minds whether the

14 consp-iracy that they are raising is correct or whether the

15

16 1c10P~ing into the- Kenned>' .3._-.=.sa·::.sinatic1n ar·e telling you the

17 truth a.nd, one~ -3.gain, I am asking you fo-r a.-comrnon sense'"'

18 deduction, 1;Jhich is more l ikel;~ to be true-, them· or· the

19 investigators, who over and over and over again, some

20 [)emcicratic, sorne F~epubl ican have inve-~.tig-3..ted the facts_..

21 A classic exarnple of a 1imiterj hangout is hov.J the

22 CIA manipulated the Church Committee. The Church Committee

23 did not learn anything.

24 It goes on to say Admiral Turner testified that he

25 knew of no falsehoods of other statement~ to the Church

.......
 11

.
1,o.Ja.terq.3..te
-
file. I 1,;.Jj 11 re~.d
, that to this ,Jur·y, 11
but the

2 point is two things~ number one, Mr. Lane did not trap Mr.

3 Hunt, any 1 ies, when he read that. He was reading from a

I

4 docurnent th-3..t is ten )'ea.r..=:. ol1j.

5 As a m~tter of fact, the prosecutor, Mr. Richard

6 Benastey, who was reading that in 1974 was not trapping Mr.

7 ·Hunt in an/' lies either.

8 t•.Jhat h2.1j happenecj. 1,.Ja·s. that t"1r. Hunt, in order· tee

9 cleanse himself, pointed ou~ to the prosecut?~S whire he had

10 comrnitted fa,lsi? s.t.3.te-rnent=- in the past. He ·,;a i d I did i t

11 here, I did i t here ·and so forth. What you had In that

13 repentant =·inner repenting.

i.
\
14 That was his confession. He testified he has not

15 told an/~tiod~,,. .3.ny lies about anything since 1974. The Pa.role

16 Ccimrrrission bel ie1v•ed that, cornrrruted his sentence frorn eight

17 years to thirt~-three months.

18 The Government of Florida conducted a thorough

19 investigation as to whether he should have his Civil Rights

20 restored, very thorough investigation and concluded he ~ad

21 been a·model citizen.

22 tvlr. Hunt is nc1vJ a God-fearing man. He had a nevJ

23 family, a new wife, two children. He is tr~,,.ing to l i•Je

24 peacefully as a retiree, and this stuff Keeps comfng up.

25
 . 12

Two more falsities that I want to point out here,

•
2 crt,.ier· her·e )'OU fi~~j the_ ;:.entence H~:CA uni?xpectedl>' r-ecei'v•ed a.n

3 internal CIA memorandum a fewfweeks ago, that the Agency Just

4 happened to stumble across in its old filed.

5 19.56,, ctnd as he said, in e·3sence,. some day we 1,1Jill haJ..,re tcr

6 explain Hunt/-=:. pr-e..::.ence in [)a.llas on r-..ic1 1.,1ernber· 22} 1'7'63, the

7 day President Kennidy was killed.

8 Hunt 1;Ji 11 be har-d put to exp1 ai n th i =· and other

9 things befcire the Tt.) cameras a_t the HSC hearings. ·

10 f,,J-?11, is that ·::.er'? 'tou hea.rd his te-=;.tirnc1n}'. He

11 practically forced his way into the House Assasslnations

12 Committee and said i f there is such a memo, may I please see

13 i t , so I can respond to it, and i f there is not such a memo,

14

15 re por· t?

16 Ask )"~c1urse1lJE'-:. a sirnp1e question, is this the act of

-.
,,.' 17 a guy t.tJho is tJ1o.~,...ing to coverup something?.-:- You barge into an

18 investigator/s office tc1 sa.:r~, I tAid.nt tc1 tel 1 the trutt-1 a.nd I

19 want you to 1 isten to me, so they have wrote their report,

20 page 91, the footnote says during the course of the

Committee/s invest~gation, a rumor was circulating that the

21

22 Committee had uncovered a memorandum in CIA files indicating

23 Hunt was in Dallas on November 22, 1963. The rumor was not

24 founded on fact. In addition,·Hunt gave the Committee a

25 sworn depcisition in 1JJhich he denied the 3:_1_.legation, and the

...
-.:. _:
 ..,
1 ~·

' Committee found no evidence that contradicted Hunt's

•
2 depc1..::. i ti on.

3 You will have to apply your common sense and ask

4 yourselves are these people whose Job i t was to use our

6 a-.re they te 1 l i ng /,.OU the truth or are the consp i r·a. tors

7 tel 1 ing /OU the tr·uth?

8 One more falsity and here is the big one, here is

9 It occurs three times and what lt all adds up

10 ·tc' is. Hunt v.Jas. in D.3.11a.s on the da)-' cif the killing. Let me

11 show this to you.

12 If you look in this paragraph that begins in the

13 Public Hea.rings~ in additic1n and ·=.o forth, tha.t last part

14 s.a~·'S his .~1 ibi for· hi·.=. r-"rher-ea.bciut·;:. on the date of the

15 shooting has come unstuck.

16 That is the first time that the/ say it. The next

17 time they say ~t is in the next column, the paragraph begins

18 Hunt immediately sued claiming he could prove he had been in

19 Washington, D.C. that day on duty at CIA.

20 It turned out,_ hoi.-\Jet,ier· ~ that this r,va:=. not tr·ue, a

21 flat statemen~, a flat assertion, that was not true, who his

22 al ibie was, was not true, i t goes on to say he concocted a

23 story about the Chinese Grocery Store. As a matter of fact,

24 both statements are Mr. Hunt/s testimony about both events

25 are true .. He was on dut/ in the CIA in the mo~ning and he

 14
...
' went shopping with his wife in the afternoon. That is number
•
2 two~

3 Number thr·ee,

4 Weberman and Canfield, this article says that the authors

5 were determined to vjndicate themselves and they continued to

6 a.tta.cK Hunt ... ::. a.libi, ultim2.tel>~ cornpletel;,1 sh.3.i::i::ering it, so

8 rAlhereabc1u ts, ha.·;. becc1rne unstuck. That is number one.

9 Number two, the statement that h; was o~ duty at

10 CIA, went sf-'.opping vJa.·:; ncrt tru12, and nurriber three~ his a.1 ibi

11 has ultimately been completely shattered, three statements.

12 I can tell you many, many more ways in which this

13 article was false, and i f I have the time I will come back

14 and do some more.

15 I th i n ~~ :-/oU get the idea. t) i ct or· !"'1ar ch et t i "S-·~- i d he

16 wa.s dealing in rumors. l.<Jh.3.t I think happened wa.s that •,)ictor

17 Marchetti took-his vacuum cleaner and inste~d of picking ~p ~

18 leaves or dust, he was pfck1ng up rumors.

19 L.Jhen he had enough rumor·;. and. the t:iag gc1t fu l 1 , he-

20 came into Liberty Lobby's office and dumped the bag on the

21 desk a~d Liberty Lobby's people rearranged it and said,

22
11
f..Je 1 1 , we '~vi 1 1 set th i s in t >-'Pe and put on -3. f et.tJ he ad l i gh ts

23 and publish i t . "

·24 Is. that r;.Jhat you v..rant out of America.n Journal ism'?

25

\
~ ......
 15

,,.,...
( You have the power by your verdict in this case to
•
2 I h Crp e }'C11J dc1. The article about

3 sh2.tter·ing the a.libi is false, for -3.nother reason. 1,0e hat)e

'

5 Mazeroff, who was as twenty year old clerk typist at the

6 Agenc:/, 1;.Jc1r·~~ing in .::t 1 i ttle fciur- per-::.crn ·area. 1,0i th· H1:r1..\Jar,j,

7 s.3.y·3 I s-3.IAI Ho1,tJ.;.rd i;ioi ng to 1 unch cin the d.E1.te of the

8 a:.=-sa~--=-i nation v.Jhen I v..ra-=:. ccrrr1i ng tracl< frc1rr1 1 unch 2.nd that J..\1-3.S-

9 a.bout tr.,,.;el ve o~cl crck.

10 Then we have Walt Kuzmak, who comes along at about

11 2:30 a.nd s.3_7'-~ he 1/.J.;i.s. coming out .3.f-1ci he 1 ooked up a.nd ther·e

12 .ia·=:. Hor,...12.r•j
1..... .3.nd Dorothy dri 1.Jing b>', and I -::.aid, Hi, Hc1v1ar·d and

14 have somebody who sees hlm at twelve o/clock and somebody who

15 sees him -~t tr,tJO. The killing is in that period, so you do

16 not have tcr r·el }' .ju·;:.t on these, al though I think }'crur cornrnon

17 sense tells yool!I )'OU should, but >··ou heard live people.

18 In short, you have to ask yourselves, ladies and

19 gentle1T1en~ l,\Jhat you ha•.,1 e sitting.here is an innocent man 1A1ho

21. the Jcihn Wi 1 ~~es Bcioth of the TvJent i eth c:entur/' and a man v.Jho

22 could not avoid the net of Watergate but yes is so cunning

23 that he in~Ja,jed a F'residenti-3.l Cornrnis-::.ion, a Sen.3.te Inquiry

25

...
\ __ .
 Remember, the FBI.did a study on him and said he
•
2 cou1 d ncit pc1·3·.=-i b~_Y be the man.

3 In fa.ct, i f he is the John Wilkes Boothj not only

I

4 did he evade the net, but he so tricKed them that they

6 How did they exonerate him? Well, 1 isten to this.

7 The photographs of the derel lets [n Dallas have been compared

s rAt i th nurner·ous l<no_r,9n phcitogr-3..phs of Hunt .=r.nd Stur·g i =· ta~~en

9 both before and after November 22, 1963. That is consistent

ll l i =·ten to this, et.Jen to non-ex per ts i.t -3.ppe-3..recj there was 2. t

12 bes.t only a superficial r·e=-.erntila.nce tn?ti,i.Jeen the Dallas

13 cierel i ct·::. a.nd Hunt and Sturgis.

The derel let resembling Hunt seemed to be older an~

14

15 smaller than Hunt.

16
The der·el i ct repr·e-::.ent i ng Stur1;i-i =· -3..ppeared thinner

17 than Stur•dis' -l<acia.I features in here l ik.8-lY di.fferent thaf\.

l8 Stur·g is.
Three derel.icts arrested in Dallas, Texas~ and you
19

20 can look -~t i t all ;/ou 1,>Jant, that is a1 l :-/ou h~.lJe to sa/:', and

21
I want to talk about whether or not Liberty Lobby Knew it was

22 false when the printed i t or did not care whether i t was true

23 or false and printed i t an>'Wa/'.

24

25
 r--.

17

Let us talk about.Mr. Carte and talk about Mr .

•
2 Carto ls the big boss of Liberty Lobby. He s.:<..ys he

3 S-3.11.J th i s ar t i c 1 e ~

4 Mr. Tucker was the managing editor of Liberty Lobby.

5 He says he was the articles, so you have two employees of

6 Liberty Lobby, the Defendant over here ~ho read i t and dealt

7 with it 3.nd edited it.

8 . Let u·s see what they did. Fir-st of -o.11, the/' did

9 not cont.;.ct Hoi.A,a.rd Hunt about this a.r·ticle,, Is th3.t

12 hatchet ._iot:1 on a. m.;.n 1 i Ke this and rrcit e~)i?fl cal 1 h irn up?

13 Marchetti did not call him up, care to, did not call

14 h irn up, Tuc~~er· did nc•t c.?.11 h irr1 up.

15 You Know what, when asked about this, they glve five

16 different rea.sons 1,~;h7~ the;.' did ncit cal 1 hirr1 up; no t1,..;c1 of

~ 17 r,~;hich matched"· At one point Carto s.a.id it ~.r.Ja.s not pol icy of
··'

18 the Spotlight to infc1rrr1 per-s.c ns 1..r.;ri tten about unless

1 there is

19 a matter- of information the~" have tcr get.

20 Number two, he said at a later point in his

21 testim6ny why call up Mr. Hunt? He would undoubtedly deny

22 Making the telephone call useless. That is

23 number two rea.son.

24 Number three, he said, Well, since Mr. Hunt was

25 unaware of a CIA plot to nail him,. he necessaril>~ could

-·~-~-
 18

.
contribute nothing to the story, so why call
, him? Does that

t-·.Jurnt:re r· four·, the reason he did not communicate with

[

Mr. Hunt because he did not his telephone number. That never

stopped any reporter from calling Mr. Hunt before.

files. They find out.

It a.1sc1 ~~ind of f1 ied in the face of i.,1r. Tucker,.=·

later testimony t·h~t he thought he checked out this Weberman

SU i t l,\,I
-
i th Hunt·' s l a1,,J)'>? r J then ~1f· . :Rub j n •. That is n1Jrr1t:1e r
f OU r' •

Tha.t is t.t.Jh}'

he could not call him up, and you go into Mr. Tucker and

Number five, he did not call him up, he said I only

called up and that will be written about i f they can improve

the =-tor:;.'. 1,,Je l 1 , a1l I arn a.s~~ i ng )"'C11J to 1jo is te- 11 rrre your

decision in this case, what you think of .~hat, wh~t. your

cc1rr1mon sense te11·;;. you, t.·Jhethecr- thi=- meet.s yo1J-r stan-i:iar-Ds -of

decency.

f..,1r-. Carto says he relied upon 100 pe-r cent cin Vi.cti:ir·

tv1archetti" he a.rritJes, i f you re1y 100 per. cent on somebody~

that is not much 1 eft over fcir you tci ,jo, is ther-e?

When the Court gives you these instruction after

these Closing Arguments are over, I bel leve the Court wlll

instruct you the reputation of another person,.s word does not

 re 1 ease someone -3.bou t 1iabL1 it/'" respon:=- i bi 1 i ty if the
•
2 repe.Er.tor· ~~n-ov.J-3 the v.Jc1rds are fal~.e or- inher·entl;.' improbable

3 or there are obvious reasons to doubt the veracity of the

i
4 person quoted or the accuracy of his reports. Mr·. Car·to did

5 not see the so-called 1966 memo. He testified to that. Mr.

6 Carta did not meet the CIA quote, sources of Victor

7 He testified to that.

8 Car.to did not meet the HSCA, the House Assassination

9
-
Cornrrcittee sour-ces so-ca.1leci cr.f J.ictcrr t"1archett.i'... _He
1

10 testified tc• tha.t.

11 L~Jha. t -~ l 1 th i -:;. h~..-;::. to dc1 ~tJ i th rna 1 ice, state of rn ind,

12 remember 1....1hen :-/cru -3'.re tr·;.'i n1~ to pro 1•..ie r,tJhat is going on in

13 "{c•u c 2.n

15 what they are thinking in 1978. All you can do is look at

16 the c i rcurr1·3t.3.nces. l.JJh.3.t did the:-/ kno11-J~-' G.Jh-3.t did the/' -=:.ay

17 they Knei,\J a.nd 1:jr.Ei.1A1 )''our· ci:Jnc l u=- ions. It is a common sense

18 proces-=:.. There is nothing re.?.11 }' that sparJ< I i ng about it.

19 He did not meet the CIA sources. He did not meet the HSCA

20 sources. He ·3.3_ id he thought i t 1......12.s quite news1;Jor th}'.

21 Mr. Tucker said he thought i t was a sensational

22 story. Carto said that he had never read anything before

23 like this. l·Jel1, if that it tr·ue~ a·3k )'01Jr·::.el 1Jt?S t.\lh)' he ,jjd

24 not meet with the Marchetti source, he did not ask to meet

25 Marchett!'s source. He did not even ask.

 . 20

I
• .
The next thino- he-testified to was he did not check

2 out Mr. Hunt's whereabouts on the day of the shooting. He

testified he did not question~t)ictcrr tv1archetti in -3.ny det.?..il

3
'
..
;[,

4 about who his sources were •

5 Mr. Carto testified that he Knew of Mr. Hunt/s

6 denials. Remember, you have in evidenc~ here some things

that show Mr. Hunt had denied this story prior to 1978. l;Jha t
7
ar·e the;.~? t.Jel 1, number cine, he sued a 1 i tt1 e ra1~ ca.11 ed the
8

9 .National Tattler in 1974 that printed the same thin·g, the

10 b.3.ld-he.3.ded tra.mps in Dealy Pla.za a.nd all th.3.t.

11 The)-~ fJ.Jent br·cr~~e. He got a Default Judgment, which

12 is good for hanging on his .1all

1;• I suppose.

13
He sued t·~tr. !,r.Jeber·rna.n 1;Jho ca.rne up '~~Ji th the sarne

theory a year later. '(ou tia~,ie press c 1 i pp i ngs fr·crrn the r-~1 i a.rn i
14

15
Herald, Time Magazine which he says I dfd not do, trying to

16
shc,ut it fr·orn the rooftops. L\1hen a=-ked this, i·:=. l"1r. c:arto

testifying, di~ you ever read of Mr. Hunt:s denials of _anys

17

18 participation in the Kennedy assassination the answer was

19
l;Jhat else did he knor.,; about it? l~ell, he knevJ.about
20

21 the FBI report exonerating Hunt.

22
Were you aware of the fact the FBI opened its files

23
on the ~<ennedy ass.::i.ssin-3..tion sometirne in _1'?77? There lAJere

24 several journalists who went through the files and wrote

25 artic1es in the Hunt situation.

 . 21.

~. .
I -s.uppose I 1;..1as. ~One either thing !'-1r. 1=:arto did. He

2 1,\Jrc1te, cc1nfir·rned this .3.rticle, let me -=.ee if I ca.n tr·>' to put

3 this in proper perspective fa~ You.

!
4 This paragraph here that says, begins H.A. Weberman

5 and this other one that says Hunt immediately sued, you

6 notice in the pub1 i=.hed 1

..'er-=-ic1n
• they ar·e tv.Jo different

7 paragraphs, okay?

8 But here you have in evldence Victor Marchetti's

9 original chicken scratch man, these two paragr~phs are

10 cc1rr1b i ned. They ar·e a.11 in one par·agr.3.ph .=-..nd C:ar·to 1,•.Jr· i te·::. up

ll the side here confirm this, underline~ exclamation point,

13 2.n interesting -3.nSJ..t)er·.

14 He was asked why did you write that and the answer

15 r,.Jas becau;:.e of the 1,\Jording in· the story~ Hunt immedi2.tely

16 sued for millicins of dolla.r-s in d2.rnages c1aimini;;i to pr·cilJe he

17 ha.d been in 1.....12.~hington, D.C. on that day· on dut;-' VJith the

18 CI A.

19 Is that what you wanted confirmed?

20 i ·st en to 1;.Jh~t he

21 It turned out, hcrJ;.JetJer, that that t;.Jas not true so he

22 said he had been on l e.a-.ve an,j doing household errands

23 includin•;i: -3. shc•pping trip to a •;i.rocer·y· stcir·e in C:hinato1.1Jn.

24 I f you want to confirm those facts, you can draw the

25 conclusion, ladie-::. and gentlernen~ tu?C-3.u-::.e this r..iJas all one

 /

par-;,.gr-aph, i t h.;;.s confir-m_±his, besides all of i t and

•
2 listening tc1 his __.":J.n-=-1,\_J:..:·, he 1,tJ.~.ni:ed tvJo thing·;:. ccinfir·rned, ncrt

3 Just one, he is tel 1 ing Tucker:-, his underl inid, ijo this for
I
fi 4 me. Does he do it?

5 I do not know, not· aware that he checked out the

6 la.11Jsuit, per ·5e.

7 The question was:

8 a.11ega.tions in this story? The a.ns1;..rer J.J.J-:i.s, i'-lo, sir.

.9 Thi-::. h.3..s ccirne intci et)i1jence in this case., -3..n

10 injunction issued by a Court, a Federal Court in Virginia

11 against Victor Marchetti, telling him he could not disclose

12 classified information without clearing it with the agency.

13

14 and he answeretj different ways.

15
Twice he laughed i t off and the third time he dld

16 not.

The f~rst time when asked did you know that the
17

18
Agency had to go to Cour-t about Mar-chetti? Did this cause

19

20
Age n c ;.~, an art i c l e 1 i ke th i s, he sa i d J tJ.Je 1 l , that is a-. h i 1dh l }'

21 political rnatter.

t«Jo1;.1~ th.at imp1 i es. tc1 rne that is a1 l politic-;;.,

22

23 whether a Court granted an 1nJunction in favor of the CIA,

24 the second ti me he ansc-ier-ed he said, c-ie 11 , the CIA does not

25 have too much tr-ouble getting a Cour-t injunction; actually

 just the reverse is the case. It was a hard fought contest .
•
2 l;.Jhen ~/cru locik a.t that in._iuncticrn i t doe·:=. not S-3.>' CIA ai: the

3 top. It says United States Di.strict Court. I t tall<s about

!
4 another· Court cal leij Llni ted :=:tate·:::. C:ciur·t of Appeal·::., the [:IA

5 ca.nnot tel 1 a.ny citizen of this country you cannot publish

6 this.

7 The>' h-3.~Je to gc1 into a Court crf Lai;.J, like this one,

8 and have a hard fought out Trial like this one and present
- - \
9 their· ca.·~e a.nd the C:c1ur-t ha·:=. to be 1 i eve i t a.nd sa.}', oka>' ~ ·>'Cru

10 .3.re r·ight, a.n1j ei..Jen then·r-,1archetti has the r·ight to appeal,

11 and he did.

12 He went into Appeals more than you go to the Supreme

14 The .third tirne Car· to an·::.1. . 1er·;;. thi·;. question:- 1 isten

15 to this, did that give rise to any suspicion on your part,

16 Mr.. M<>.Pche t ti • I may have been prejudiced against the CIA ln

17 the rn.:\nuscr i pt-he submitted tci you, the answer J.AJas: We 1 1 , he

18 certainl)'was at odd"S.v.Jith certain •;troupswii::hin the CIA~ but

19 b/' the same token he had and I assurne st i 11 has fr i enc:is among

20 other· gr·oups 1,0i thin the CIA.

21 The question was: That did not make you question

22 anything you wrote about the CIA then?

23 Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

24 The question was: Did i t or did it not? It did,

·25 and did you question him on what he wr·ote·?

r·---.

24

(_
. Jel l .~
I.... ~?OU can see, ~I did question him on the

2 rnanu-=:.cript. Acti~!-11:-/,_the onl/' thin1;i he ha..::. cin the

3 manuscript is words to confirm this. If he had doubts about

;

4 1-Jictor- r·,1archetti/..::. neutf"'ality and hE' said he did, he clid ncrt

5 follow up on those doubts.

6 f,Jcrv.J, he is tel 1 i ng /'OU he too~~ ever·;.'th i ng on faith

7 from Victor Marchetti You have to asK yourself whether that

9 Look at Mr. Tucker_,.s contribution to this thing.

lO Mr. Tucker 1.,·Jr·ote a11 these headlines. There is no question

11 about i t , not 1......lictc1r· f"1archetti, t,tJhcr i·;; not on tria1 her·e, tiut

12 Liberty Lobby, the person of Mr. Tucker, CIA to nail Hunt for

13 l<ennei:::i;.' ~~ i 1 l i r11;i.

14 You heard their explanation that, gosh, we did not

15
mean to accuse Hr. Hunt of anything. We j~st wanted to warn

16
him the Agency was about to frame him and. expose him.

17
Carto.i,.Jent too f-3.r and this is th.e height of ... -..
ar·r-c11~ance, tc1 rny 1.,tJa>' of thinKin 1; i, to sa/' t1r.· Hunt =.hould be
18

19
so grateful for this story he would send us a gratuityE He

20 should send them a gift.

I ask you , l ad i e ·s and 9" n t l eme n , if that i s coh at

21

22 they intended to write, why did they say CIA to nail Hunt for

23
Kennedy killing? Why didn't they say CIA. to frame Hunt for

24
Kennedy killing? Isn't there a world of difference between

25 those two terns? This is just a straightforward statement

 that a Governmental body is going to accuse someone of a
•
2 crime. The inside headl ihe posing as bum, this is what I

3 c .;:>, 1l i bel b/' ._iuxtaposi ti on.

4 If someone puts your name there and an equal sign,

5 the 1.1Jc1rd murder-er, /'OU haue been l i belled. It does not h.:r.~)e-

7 JJJi th sornething th.:r.t expose,j you tc1 contempt, to hate, public

s r·idicule, putil ic -::.cc1r·n, tha.t is 1,0h-3..t l ibe1 is a11 abc1ut, and

9 when this man, Tucker, wrote this headline that says.posing

10 -3.S burn 1 that is a.s 1;ioc1d a.'!:· =:..3.)'ing thr·ee tr.2.rrrp·::. in De.2.1}'

11 Pla.za, Hunt i·::. one of them. That i·s l/Jh.2.t posing as burn needs

12 its code 1 a.nguai;ie.

13 I f ;.'c1u have an/' dc1ubt at a.11 th.::i.t r,...rho this .3.rticle

14 i·:::. re.3.lly· about,.t.he- CIA or someboi:i:-/ else, looK at the l.=-.·;;.t

15 page} the ccintinuaticrn, the hea '::lline,

1 dcre·::. it =.ay C:IA, dcit,

16 dot, dot, Hunt?

17 Other.things that shor,..J rna1 ice b/' the-::.e people, thi=·

18 1,.~1as nci:t hot news. Tucker and 1=::arto testified that this

19 articli;.. VJas. lying arcrund fcir- days, i f not we-e~~s, t efor·E<

1 they

20 They labored over this article and then proved i t

21 and put headlines on it. They had plenty of time to chec>'. it

22 out and the;- did not.

23 The investigation that they performed was grossly

24 inadequate, grossly; not only that, but Marchetti wrote I am

25
 I sorry, Mr. Tucker, rewrote_ a paragraph that Marchetti did not
•
2 h.:t..IJe in hi·=. ori·;iin~.l, -3.nd this is it.

3 Tbis 1,..;riting, ladies and gentlemen, is not l.) i ct or-

i
4 t··1arche t ti,,.=-" It is Liberty Lobby and they- hav~ to stand or

5 fall on it. They cannot point the finger and say we relied

6 on the rumors, that is their stuff. What does i t say?

7 The FBI '"'hile publicly embracing the lJa.rren

8 Commission} one man acted alone, has always privately known

\
9 there were three gunmen. I~agini that. -_That is accusin~ the

10 FBI, .J. Edgar Hciover· a.rpj a.11 th.:..t of that, pointin-g the

11 finger a.t Os1.1,1a.ld, while kno1,..1,1in1;t there VJere tvJo other people

12 who were never brought to justice. If that is 1 i be l , it is

13 of the FBI, after discussing three gunmen, the article then

14 goes on_later to talk about Mr. Hunt~ Mr. Sturgis and Mr.

15 Hemming, right after ·talking about three gunmen and that is

Liberty Lobby/swords, not Victor March~tti's.

16

Did M~. Tucker make any attempt._to check out Hunt's

17

18 alibi? Thi'."'- is the best of al 1. He testified that he-picked-

19 up the telephone book and looked for the grocery store,

20 picking 0p a 1978 telephone book to try to find a name after

21 1963, ·the grocery store, could not find the grocery store and

22 put the article to bed.

23 Let the presses roll The retraction that was

~ 24 requested of them, do you recall what happened? Mr. Ed Dunn,

25 cine of our Wi tnesses came a 1 ong and said he 1 ear·ned about

,.,
•.
.--·

27

l this from his postman and ~e told Howard to get a copy of the
'
2 Spotlight a.ni:j then Hciv.Jar·,j gcit a cop)-'· of th2 Spotlight and

3 came into the 9/'m, r1Jhere they berth l..'Jorked out, •,Jer:·,/
i
4 distressed about it, so Mr. Hunt's lawyer asked for a

5 retraction.

6 What does Liberty Lobby say? Mr. Rubin, we are

7 making a thorough and conscientious investigation of the

8 reference·5 to t-1r. Hunt 1,.Jh i ch appearecj in the Spotlight, 1,..;h i ch

9 you quote in }'Our· letter.· YoU-are entlt.l"ed to dr2.t,\l thi?

10 negative conclusion if they say we will do an investigation,

11 you can reasonably conclude they had not done one up to that

12 point. 1·t is that simple. No big mystery.

13 It is common sense, every step of the way.

14 One other thing to show, Tucker's motive in coming

15 up with these parti·cular headlines. He was asked why did you

16 come up with this particular wording? Who says to you come

17 up with this wgrding and he said I considered it a flairful

18 thing. He wanted to add flair to the story.

19 Carto asked hlm--Carto was asked what is your bas1s

20 for deciding what headlines to use? You know what he said?

21 First of .'l-11, the headline h.e.s to fit in the sp<>.ce and,

22 second, it has. to grab -3.ttention c,f i::iur- viewers, of our

23 readers, never mind whether it is true or not. That is not

24 his criter·ia.. It has to fit and grab attention.

25

.. .
 28

(
Tucker says he considered this a sensational story

2 and th-3.t the he.3.dl ines 11-Jere a f1airfu1 thing~ He 1;Jan t.ed to

3 add some flair to the story because he sure did.

f
4 Let u·=- ta.lk ~.trout 1.)ictc r· t·1a. r·chetti.
1 The Cour·t 1,..1i 11

5 in·::.truct yciu th-3.t Victor· t·,tar·chetti is not on trial. I told

6 you that from· the beginning. He 1 i 1.,1e·:;; in ~)ir·i;iinia. l.cJhat he

7 does cannot be imputed to Liberty Lobby because he 1s a

8 fr·ee1 ancer .- He is ncit on their- pa~'/roll, but b>' the sa.me

9 toKen they cannot slavishly copy what he wrote. They w;rit

10

l l Intel 1 i gence ·cornmun it>.. , -3.nd 1,..Jhen /'OU 1 croK a:.t the first page

12 crf the ~:pot l i 1;ih t .=-.rt i c 1 e or· r·a th er· the -:::.econd page, }'C•U l,·J ill

13 see he was a staff assistant to Richard Helms.

Richard Helms ls the top man in the Ag~ncy, so we

· 14

15 asKed Richard Helms was he your assistant and he says no, was

16 not my assistant.

17 He wa~ the assistant to one of -~Y deputies. l,<)i? lJ.•,

dic:i he ha. 1Je any import.~.nt pol icy-maKing i;--ole·-s? Listen to

18

this.
19

20 It is an effort to make perhaps a poor analogy, they

21 t.>Jere some sort of helpers, go-fors, bag carriers for the

Di rec tor cif the Cen ta.1 In te 1 l i gence, and J,\Jhen I sa;-~ bag
22

23 carrier, I do mean that in a perjorative sense.

24

25

··-
 29

2
s.omep 1 ace. Tha·.t--is. t!Jh-at Helrns has to -s.ay, not e 1•..ren the
3
biographies of the authors ar~ true, not even that.
4
Marchetti testified when his Deputy Director retired
5
he was transferred. Later in the opinion of the Agency he
6
started to leak classified stories and they had to be taken
7
to Court.
8
No~, you heard Marchetti say he was not at war with
9
the CIA 2.nd~ yes, 1· rea.d to h.im fr·crrr1 his own boo~~ in t..tJhich he·

10
yells bloody murder about this outrageous lnJunction,
11
rernernber, crnce ag-3.in, the C':IA canncit is.sue injunctions.
12
cannot say you may not write. They can never say you cannot
13
express your opinion about the CIA. Any citizen of this
14
country under the First Amendment can say I hate th~ CIA with
15
all my heart and it does matter whether he is a former
16
ernplo:'/ee or not. He never gives up that right.
17
When Re starts to leak classified information, then
18
that is different, but the Agency cannot do i t by themselves.
19 They cannot go in and muzzle him. They have to go into a
20 Cciur·t of La.VJ and pro .}e their ca.se.
1
The}' hat..Je to pro .;e 1 th.:tt
21
he leaked it and what he leaked was classified.
22 r-Jor. . J, if tho:- title on his book is true, the first
23 b·cro~~, Uni tecf :;t.:ttes Go 1...rernrnent ei.,ier 1,\Jent to Court and if that
24 statement is true, what does it tell you about Victor
25
Marchetti?
 30

,.'
\
Of 3.l l the tens of thousands of people that worKed
•
2 for· the Central II1tel lJgenc;:.-~ Ai~ency and the/~ al 1 ta~~e ciaths

3 not to reveal classified info~mation, he is the first guy

P.
4 that they ever have had to take to Court for doing so.

5 LJhat does tt-1a.t tell )-'OU a.bOut l)ictor fvfarchetti tc,

6 appl /' your 011Jn cornrnon sense·?

7 M.e.rchetti tes.tified th.e.t he r·elied on Allen .J.

8 Weberman and William Colson. Well, nowJ Allen J. Weberman,

9 ever time you hear the name Weberman, the back of· a bald head

10 ought to be what goes off in your mind. He .1s the man who

1I started this, the tramps in Dealy Plaza could be Howard Hunt.

12 That is the Weberman thesis, so i f he rel led on Weberman,

,. 13 what could his rumors possibly be worth?

!.
14 Weberman has discredited ov?r and over again.

15 Liberty Lobby printed that stuff, never asking to

16 check out a source, never meeting a source, never seeing a

17 rr1ernc1, nothin•;i.·

18 Look at what Colson says. You heard this before.

19 Marchetti said he asked Colson to check out all of the stuff

20 about a '66 memo with Mr. Colson's source.on the House

21 Assa.. s-=:-i nat i cins Comrni ttee.

22 This ls Colson's testimony. Do you have any sources

23 in the House Assassinations C:ommittee, the an·;:.r..ver, none~

24 whatsoei,,. er ..
1

25
 31
,.
(
• The question was:- Did you ever report to Mr.
2 1"'12.rche t ti you feJ_t A11.....en .J. l.1.Jetrerrna.n ,. s i nform.3. t j on L'-Jas

3 accurate? The answer was I do not Know what Allen J.

4 Weberman's information was but no.
5 I made no comment relative to Allen J. Weberman,
6 anything he may have ~aid.

7 The questlon was: Have you ever met Mr. Weberman

8 a.nd the anstMer was, t-~o.

9 the question was: He felt Allen Weberman's

10 1nformation was accurate, and the question Was, Did Mr.
11 Marchetti ask you to check out the memo w1th sources yourself
12

13 The -3.n-;.1,~Je r r,•.Ja·::.: I have no recollect[on of that ever

14 being asked me by Mr. Marchetti,

15 The question was: [Jici }'CJIJ e 1.)er· tell ~1ar-chetti I ha.d

16 discussed those matters with Mr3 Angel ton? The answer was,
17 i'~O~ not ai: a11 7 I neither told Mr. Marchetti I discussed it
18 nor did I .discuss it with Mr. Angel ton.
19 I asked him, Do you consider yourself to be a source
20 for this article, and he said, In no way.
21 t1r .. Colsc1n shed sorr1e 1 ight on what l)ictor Marchetti
22 i s a 1 l .about . He said in 1978 Penthouse stopped by buying
23 things from Victor Marchetti.
24 Why did they stbp buying? Because he took an
25 adv2.nce from us and did not produce. In other words~.. when

c ,_
..
 f
' }'OU ass_.i1;in it to do an artic1e:r /'OU are comrniss.ioned to do

2 it, the>' t..\J ill g iy_e- you_ .;.n -~d 1.J.ci.nce; and then when yc1u ar-e done

3 the a.rticle, they VJill pa.~,,; YO'T the rest of it~

4 He took an advance and did not produce anything, so

5 the;/ said th2.t is all.

6 I also asked him was.Victor Marchetti down and out

7 [n 1978 when the Spotlight article was written?

8 He did not have any material source of

9 income and i t seemed to be rather straightforward. I mean,

ll r-a.is.e but h.3.1j ncit regul.3.r, 1;iainful emplo;.'ment.

12 You are entitled to conclude perhaps, ladies and

13 gentlemen~ tha.t 1-.)ictor t·,1a.r·chetti 1;Jould do a.n>'thing to pick up

14 a fer,..J buc~~s, inc1ud_ing ·~ettirfl~ that 1.,t.~cuum cleaner out there-

15 and scour in•;. the ~-treets crf l;Ja.shington for ~hi·s rumor~., coulci

.,~ 17 Lobby, dumps t~em on the desk and says her~ it is an~ th·ey

18 put it in,, ·sticl< .;;r. fe1,~J hea.c11ines, .;;r. flair for .3.. he.3..dline,, of

19 course~ Tha.t is 1,o.Jhat }'OU have in the Spot1 ight artic1e~

20 Th."< t i ·:. the 1,,Jay I think i t happened.

21 I want to talk about the White House Plumbers and

22 t.J.a terga te. You have to ask yourself what does Watergate have

23 to do vJi th this Trial?

24

25

; ..
 33

~ You ·were here Tue§day afternoon and Mr. Hunt was

2
bein 1~ que-=.tic1 nei::::i-....at1 ouLthc1se mu'!:.eurn pieces fr-orn the t'-~atincial

3 Arch i !... es.

1

4
Did you say this is a Watergate Grand Jury, was i t
5 .f2.1 se? ~(ep. Did you knor,t; i t 1.Ma-.s fa 1 ;:.e _1;,1hen you said it?

7 And that went on. As I recal 1 i t , rrr}' ncites shot.\J it

8 for five hourse over two days, I was looking at some of you
9 and -::.orne of yc1u li:Jokeij -~.s tic•red .;.-.=. I 1,~.1a-:=:. anci so the question

10 is, why bring i t up? Why was the 90 to 95 per cent of Mr.
11 Hunt's Cross Examination about Watergate Plumberss and White
12 House activities?
13 Tr,\JC• r·ea.son·;;... I think i t is a strategic decision.
'
14 Let u-::. talk. a.bc•ut t.·J.~.tergate and let us r·esur·rect
15 Watergate and get that Jury to be so shocked about Watergate
16 that the}.. •;Jill forget a.11 about the Spotlight article, 1J.Jhich

17 is why we are ~ere in this Court to begin with.

18 It is the olde·st ga.me in the 1;.Jorld. Mr. L<rne told

19 7·c1u he 1/Jas a. cr·irr1ina1 1a.i~tJ>.. er· a.nd the first trick in the tiag

20 cif tricks of any good criminal 1a.LtJ}'"er is put the .Jictim on

1

21 tria.l.

22 If the wife Kills her husband, then the Defense

23 1~ught to tre the husb.:r.r11j 1;.Ja.s no darnn good any·1,.Jay and deser-v.ed

24 to die. That ought to be the Defense.

25
 -~:::4

• Let us do that to-Mr. Hunt. There is a possible

2 -::.econd r-eascrn and I thJn~~ +.:hi·3 c.3.rne out·rriore and rnore o.s. this

3 1;.;en t on. Once a 1 iar always~ 1 iar, and you will have to

4 decide whether that is true or not.

5 Liberty Lobby, in effect, sa.ys there is no
6 poss i bi l i ty fcir hurr1.3.n redernp ti on, nci thing abc1u t turning >~our

7 back on a wrongful course and setting out 6n a new course.

8 Once .3. 1 i2.r, he 1 ied in 1'7'7:=:. He probably is lying

9 nc11,~J. Tha.t ha.s to be the theor}'. That i-s the onl ~/ thing that

10 makes any sense, divert attentlon from the article by talking

11 about l.J-3.ter1;i-.:..te and once a 1 ia.r, alv.Ja)-'S a 1 i.:<.r·.

12 Let us talk about what the House PJumbers did and

13 what Watergate was all about.

14 The key things, the two big things wer~ the

15 Fielding, so-called Black Bag Job and the Watergate Black Bag

16 job, a Black Bag Job is a breakfng and entering in the

17 Fielding case.

18 The Plumbers went into Fielding/s··office, opened up

19 his file ca.binet a.nd tried to find a. f i l e in Da.niel

20 Ellsberg·-"s •:tffice and could ncit find an>--th..ing} scr the;." l e f t .

21 I do not stand here today to tell you that this is

22 right. I do not stand here to tell you any part of Watergate

23 is correct, right, mora.1, proper or a.n;.--thing l iKe that.

24 Mr. Lane said this kind of stuff ~hreatened the

25 Democratic process. "(ou ,• kno1,v somethino.

- . he is right. I
 35

would l~iKe to think today 1f there were a Fielding-Ellsberg

2 situa.ti•:,n, th.:i.t i.11h.3.f r,':.!.CitJlij h.3.ppen 1J.JC1uld be if the Got;er·nrnent

3 thought El 1 sberg had g i ''en SOl)le thing to a ps7'ch i a tr i ·3t, the

4 Government would have gone before a U.SI Magistrate and said
5 here is the evidence we got and the Magistrate, 1 ike a Judge;
6 would have to declde whether or not the evidence warranted
7 issuing a search warrant, a seizure, a seizure warrant and in

8 gettin1;i thi·=. ·:=.tu-i=f, .:=i.nd i f i t dici, then the FBI or· the police
I
9 would go into Fielding/s office and make a search.
10 It was not done that way. I regret i t . Mr. Hunt
11 r·egrets it. For Watergate and those associated things, he
12 h.3s P·"id.
13 Ladies and gentlemen, he was sentenced to two and a
14 half to eight years, plus a $10,000 fine. He ha:s p.3.id fcrr
15 the Watergate breaK-ln. What can you say about a President,
16 1,vho I thin~~ his landslide 1,t.12.·;; bigger th2.n F.'.on.3.ld Re.3.gan"s 2.

""
:~
17
couple of mont~s ago, Nixon won 49 States and yet felt it
18
necessary to try to find out where the Democrats were getting
19 their money from. That was the reason for Watergate. Let us
20 go in there and see their records and so on and photographed
21
some records and took them bacK.
22 The people who sponsored Watergate, Magruder,
23 John Dean said that is great~ go bacK and do it
Mitchell
24
again, so they did and they got caught.
25
 ':•L.
._,,_

• I do not mean to·Bown play the significance of the

I 1,\,1c1u 1 d v.1an t t ci

point out however, that it did not involve harming anyone,

rnuch le·=·=· killin1~ anybcid~,... It was a search for a document.

They broke into the Fielding's off ice to look in his desk

dr·a.11.Jer tci =·ee if he ha.i:) any =.tuff on El 1 sber·g. He could not

find an/'. It was wrong, but it was not 1 ife threatening.

One of the Plumbers operations, they were going to

talk to Dita Beard, and Howard was told. to put on a wig and

talK to her in Colorado, which he did. Howard was told to

forge certain cables, trying to pin the blame for the. Vietnam

!;.Jar on the f<enned~.' Arjrnini·::.tr.3.tion.

That is a miserable thing, one party trying to play

c:iirt~.' tr·ic~~s on· a.nether part}' 1 iKe- ·tt1at. l;Jh.3.t mcrre can I

say·?

The Jack Anderson thing~ you have a direct

contradiction rn the evidence. Gordon Li'Bdy ·testi.fi~d by

deposition that he gives eighty lectures ·a year. You think

about that. That is one every four days or so.

He is a well paid man. He is a ·pretty cunning man,

and remember Gordon Liddy, the screwball who held his hand

over a candle to prove how macho he was, that is Gordon

Liddy. Gordon Liddy did not talk while he was in prison. He

had several years tacked onto his sentence because he would

not talk.
 .37

• When he got out of prison and everybody else/s book

2 had been sold and die~down, then he wrote a booK and told
3 everything, i t was best, and ever since that, and then he has
4
been on the lecture circuit, talking, talking, talking about
5 his experiences in the White House. Does he make them up as
6 he goes a.lc1r11;t';='

7 Was there a plot to kill Jack Anderson? Mr. Hunt

8 s.::(:r's, no, ne 1Jer a plot to Y.:i11 hirn. Colson asked them, ~unt,

10

11 The next time he went on TV, three guys, ·Hunt, Liddy

12 and Doctor Dunn from the CIA, who was retired, sat around and

13 decided i t would not work, so they dropped it.

14 h.o.pperred.

15 In other words, you want to look at it? Liddy says

16 that there was a conspiracy to murder Jack Anderson.

17 At th:? last rnornent our- pr·incipals decided to abort
18 i t.

19 Mr. Hunt's version· is that three guys sat around ln

20 a bar talking about Anderson and nothing happened. Anderson

21 is al it,ie a.nd 1;.;el 1, r,9ri ting his co1urnn=:., 1 i•Jing in l.Ja=:.hington,

22 making a lot of money.

23 t-.~c11,..,_1 ~ 1,t..1hc1 is corn i n1;i up l..tJ i th this k i 1 1 i ng business? I

24 _suggest it is Mr. Liddy, because i f you go on a lecture

25 circuit and you have eighty lectures a year and your first

·-·
 ·-·
'00
._.

le-cture1: is. three da~,,.s~ ;;.2.t-.::i.r·ound shooting the bull in a bar

2 at:rout JacK Ander2_c•n ar~:i nothing happenecj, 1,•Ji 11 ;-~c1u be

3 inviting for 79 back for lecl4res?

4 I do not think so. Liddy says they would not kill

5 him, but what I suggest ls tha~ we Just Killed him. 1,<Jha t I

6 suggested is we Just Killed him. That recornrnendat ion 1,\Jas

8 That is the way Liddy tells i t on the lecture

9 cir·cuit. He makes a ton of money doing it~ but it l~ not

10 tr·ue.

11 I want to ask you why som~body l iKe Mr. Hunt would

12 tell a 1 ie to the klater·ga.te Grand .Jury, from !Jctober~ 1'7'74

13 when he came clean and that is what Mr. Lane is reading from,

14 he is reading from the public ~.c•nfessi ons of tv1r. Hunt tcr the

15 1,,.1hc•le 1,\1c1rld~ in 11.Jhich he pie~~-;. .3..pa.r·t 2.ll of his pr·ior· false

16 staternents and -;:.ets the record straight, i f he is coming ·

17 cle.=-.n since Oc~citier· fo 1'7'74 until ncivJ, .~nd:-he:1..1.1a-.-::. 2.:sp~enQict

18 citizen from 1918 until 1973, y·ou hea.r·d arl of that is his

19 war record, he worked for Time Magazine. He is a

20 correspondent for Life M.3.ga.z i ne"

21 He vJent 2.nd 1;.;on 2. Gu1;ii;1enheim Fellc1.1..<Jship.

22 Phi Bet2. Kapp2.• He went to Europe to be in the Marshall

23 Pl-3.n, one of the rno·=-t ideali~.tic hurnanita.r·ian things this

24 country has done.

25
, , ..
'.
_. Hct1..~J 1...Jc1uld .~guy l.r~~e th.?.t corne to lie in this 1 i ttle
2

3 Mr. Lane never asked fhim that questions Let us -3.sk

4 hi"'rn that que-=.tion -3.nd ·::.ee 1;.Jh-3.t hi=- ansr,~1er is.

5 First of all, his wife, Dorothy, had just died in a

6 plane cr·ash. He is faclng prisonE I do not Know i f any of
7 you are widows or widowers or ever have been, but i f you read
8 about these things, there is nothing in human relationships
I
'
9 and affairs that is any more traumatic and devastat.ing than
10 the loss of a spouse. Not bankruptcy, not loslng your job,
11 not getting divorced, nothing is more devastating than losing
12 a person·'s -=-pci1J·;;e. Ther-e i·=· no que=.tion atiout it.

13 Mr. Hunt testified that he had no brothers or

14 sisters and he did not have very many friends in this

15 countr>'· As a matter of fact, he liked working foreign duty.

16 He stayed in the CIA because he had so few contacts in the
17 United States, ~o here he is in prison and his wife was just
18 killed. That is a load of stress on him. His best friend is

19 cut outJ and, number two, the judicial system is imposing its

20 or,~;n pre·::.sures. He has Just been g!ven a provisional sentence

21 in March of 1973, he testified his final sentence was two and
22 a half to eight years, that his provisional sentence, you
23 remember what that was, thirty-five years in prison.
24

25
 40

/ -
.. J"'.Jc11,...1, /'OU rea.d atrc11Jt pecrp1 e bre2.k i ng .~nd entering ar'11j

2 if i t h.3..d not l:::o?e-..n kl.~.t..ergd.te~ I 1,tJC1nder t.·Jhd.t the ~.entence

3 would have been.

5 pro·tr,~· ti on. The Judge would look at his r~cord and say you

6 have a splendid record. You are a good citizen. '( Cr U OIJJ n

7 your or,tJfJ h ou s.e • You have kids to support. \..o...le l;J i 1l pU t /'OU

8 t::.in pr·oti.3.ticin until /'c1ur· trial ccirnes. up and then 1/-JhS<ri the

9 trial is over marbe the Judge ·would have said ninety days,

11 thirty-five years. That is what he is looking at, and he ic

12 told to put his affairs in order to begin serving that time.

13 What is his family at th1s point? Well, you heard

14 h i rn tal f'. abcrU t Li ~.a' 1,iJho i ·:; h i s teen.=-.ger· -'3t ,John ancither
' '
15 teena.ger
'
-3.n rj Da~_.i i d, J..'~th 0 1;..Ja.. ·3 n ine ~/e2.rs ol'd -3. t the t i rrie .
16 t'Jc11,~J, Lisa, >~ciu rec.~ 11 his test i ITP'.:Jn/', 1.-iJ-3.s in a car

17 collisic1n in 1i$.5c., 2. head-on colli·~ion a.ni:fi·t affected her ~o

18 much that her brain was damaged. Her brai-n was severely

19 cja.rna.i;ieci anci, a.s a matter c1f f.~c t, i t r;Jas d2.ma.ge 1j so bad tha. t

20 she could not 1 i ve at hc1rr1e cir et,ien in -=:.oc.i.et)'~. She had tc1 be

21 inst i tut i cinal i zed in Baltimore·~ I 1 ived in Baltimore and

22 Shepherd Heart is four miles form my house. It is a find

23 institution and i t costs a ton of money to keep somebody

24 there.
25
 41

• Mr. Hunt's testimony was that from 1966 when this

2 cc111isic1n happene_d, th.a.the spent all cif his l i f e sat)irrgs to
3 keep her there and then went ~nto heavy debt to keep her
4 there, and by 1970 he decided he had to get out of the
5 Government because i t did not pay enough and he had to get
6 into something that would make him more money so he could
7 keep her there ..
8 t'{cll;.J, i f 1-Jc1u ha~}e thr·ee chi l cfren a. nd yc1u have j u·:;t

9 been told that you will be. sentenced to prison for

10 thirty-five years and your wife has just died and you have
11 been fired from you~ Job at Mullen and Company, and certainly
12 at the White House, and there ls no money coming in, what do

13 >'cru do then'? JAlel l ~ t1~1hen the coverup c,f lAlater-1,;;rate st.3.rted,

14 th~ pec1ple v.Jhci :;t.3.r·teij i t , the people r,\Jho 1A1ent tc1 .J.;.il ~

15 u 1 ti rna. tel>' Ha 1 derna.n, the f·'l i tche 1 1 s, Ehr l i chman said l}Je 1,~J i l 1

16
provide support for yciur f.;.mi 1 >'· We will also provide you
17 with legal fee€, okay, and the money came rolling down.
18 After the election of November of 1972, Mr. Hunt
19 said all of a sudden the money stopped and there was not

20 an/'thing coming in for the f.;.rriil>' of Hunt, Lidd>', t··1cCor-d err

21 an>' other four Cuban men from f'1i ami, nothing.

22 His 1,~1i fe di ed. His children are on a rampage, the

23 tv.Jo teen.;.gers .3_re in to drugs, a.nd the third kid is l iv i ng
24 there in the middle of that stuff, and he is being told he
25
 42

has to QO away to prison ~dr perhaps as long as thfrty-five

2 year-::..

3 He ha.-;;;. nci SOUf'CE< of ifnccirne tJ..1h a t-=::.oe l,i er· ·::.o he 1,.0.Jr i t e-=.
' '
4 th i s l etter 2.n,j 53.}'S gi 'Je us the rrrone >' or a. I arn gcri ng to
5 expose highly illegal things that I have done and the money

6 turned back on, and that letter is what you have heard

7 referred to the blackmailing the White House. Actually he

8 was sort of a bill collector. They told hfm before we will

9 do this for .you, so he ·thought that his ohlY option was that

10 he 1A1ent a. little hayvJire in 1'7'73 and 1974.

1I He ·;;aid I arn gc1 i ng to l<eep rri/' rnou th shut and hcipe

12 like the deiJil tha.t these peciple ·;;e-nt the mone>' to my fa.mil/'.

13 In 1'7'74 I beca.rne hi·:; attcrrne>' and r..\Je jointl:-/ ijecided

14 that this had to end. He h.3.d tcr st.3:.rt te11 i r:ig the tr-uth, the

15 whole truth and nothing but the truth and not only that, he

16 h.3'.d to tell the prosecutors t.r..1here he ha.d ever lied before 2.nd

17 he did.

18 He te~.tified h_e spent da;~s, i f n·ot t.AJeeks., •,o.Jith those

19 prosecutors saying this was a false statement. ·This was a

20 false statement. This was a false statement. Go back to

21 there and ,-ou. wi 11 see this, pointed out all that stuff.

22 Finally in ()ctot•er crf 1974, in that rnu~.e-um piece

23 ther-e that i"1r. Lane br·ough t do1JJO, th.at is VJhen he met, -3.nd

24 made the har-d dee i si on to repent publ i c1 y_ and confess

25 publ icl,- and set the record straight abo~t all his prior
~- '•,
 43

false s~atements, and he dtd and he was never charged with

3 bl -0<cl<ma. i l • He came clean and:he helped the Government along

4

6 assistants to the President. That is Watergate. That is the

7 story of Watergate.
8 La.dies. 2.r[lj gentlernen,. I 2.rn going to skip tal}<ing

9 a.bout f'tori_t.;.. LDrenz for· the rnornent except to sa7· tha.t she for·
10 the first time, about less than thirty days ago, her
11 deposition was taken, for the first time ever a person said
12 Mr. Hunt was ln Dallas on November 21, 1963, and i f you had

13 to prove 1;.Jher·e >. ou r,\Jere on the 22n1j, I think .3.l l of u·::.. cc:iuld

14 p~obably do that.

15 Supposing you had to prove where you were on the

16 21st. I i,..;i11 tell you 1,•Jhen she said that i t was like an atorn

17
bomb going off-to me and I scurried around trying to find
18 some human being ~-till ali 1._.1e on the face of this planet that

19 could remember where Mr. Hunt was on the 21st. That is just

20 not a date an:-/more than June 10 or- ·:.omething that anybody

21 would remember, and i t is a minor miracle. It is a minot

22 miracle that we were able to find Betty Macintosh, that lady

23 of about 70 years of age that you saw on the stand yesterday
24 who says, 11
! remember where he was because we always had a
25 meeting on Thursday to decide what would be done in Friday~"
 44

(
and the.22nd was a Friday .and the 21st was a Thursday and I

2 remerr1Qer· ta1 k i ng __tcr h ilJI~ so -::.he c.3..me dc11;~1n her~e fr-o-rn Leesburg,

3 Vir·ginia, to stand up for Hov.J~.rd and tell the truth, a.nd I

4 have a lot more to say about Morita Lorenz later on.

5 I want to conclude ~ith Just a few words about

6 darnages ~

7 The Cc1urt 1.1.Ji 11 te11 7.. ou there are tt1JD ~~ i n1js of

8 damages tt-za t 1-··ou C-3:.n 2.1..-t.iard. One is called compensatory

9. damages.· Cine is ca11ed punitive darnai;;ies·. The· Cc1urt r;.Jill

10 tell yciu tha.t the laL·J in this country holds a per·son-"s

11 reputatic1n in '-}er->' high esteern and i f it is rnal iciousl>~

12 smeared~ he could bring an action to have i t redressed in an

13 -3:.ction called Libel.

14 1;.Je third< Jv1r. Hunt h-3.S_been libelled and th-~.t -3..

15 substanti.3..l a1,•Ja.rd of compensator}' d-3..mages is .Justified.

16 I respectfully suggest to you something in the order

17 of $500,000 miaht be appropriate. We ar~ taiking about .not.-

18 .Just li::ist ec1:1nomic oppczrtunity 1 bec.3.use there is plenty of

19 that, but eve are talking .;:.cbout the .;:.cnguish and the agon/ that

20 his famil>' has h.3..1j to put up r1-Jfth., '(c1u beard hirr1 sa>' his

21 children 1;.Ja.nted to ~~no1.J..J 1;..1here he 1,..;a.s .. This is not

22 i neons i st en t. The~,... kni:--1,o-J he r,\1as at thE< house with them

23 watching the TV on the date of the Kennedy assassination, but

24 the)' said to him, you knov.1, Poppa, hot.-..r can they =:.ay these

25 things about /OU if it is not true, lif~e.a lot of us, until

 45
, ..
•..' ...
.
J..·Je rnatui;e a.nd see sorne of ,the thing·;;, publ i c.3.t ions) rnost of
2 the th i n1;is 1;.;e th Lr1K v.Jh~n 1,,Je grc11,v up, if ·it i ·::. in print i t ha·::.

3 to· be true, a.nd then 1..1.Je f i n,j C!U t that is. no·t so a. t a. l 1 .

We are fighting these kinds of Libel suits, you are

5 talki~g about depositions which cost hundreds of dollars,
6 lawyer time, trying to get to the bottom of it, find[nd out

7 1,•.1ho said 1...Jh.3.t, tiut abo~Je all hurniliatio·n and the public

8 con ternp t that is. r·ea 1 hur-t. Tha.t is re-0<] hur·t th.0<t thi=- man

9 i·::. t·rying to do nothing but 1 i .)e

1 out 2. peaceful ife in

10 retir·ernent.

11 That is all he is trying to do and yet this stuff

12 vampire. You thfnk i t is dead
V~eeps corning up. It is 1 ike a

13 in the movie and 1t rises up again.

14 Mr. Hunt thought .the Weathermen thing was dead when
15 he sued the National Tattler. Unfortunately the case never
16 got to the Jury because they went bankrupt and that Jury was
17 never- ab1 e to s·end .3.. rnessage to· the~.e ·::.1 eaz7J peop1 e, but :-/ctU
18 had the·Rockefe1ler Commission s.aying i t is not true~ He 1A1as

19 not one of the tra.rnps in [)e.=-.1>J Pla-.za.E

20 You had a distinguished body of Senators. Read this

21 report all you want. You won't see that.

22 Go to the Hou·;;e Assas.sinations Committee Report.
23 They flatly say he was not involved nor was the CIA, the FBI,
24 the Secret Service or any other Governmental agency, but the
25 stuff keeps corning up.
 ''(ou ha.ve the oppOT·tuni t>' to irnpose punitive d.3.mage=·
•
2 ancl a .Ju1j1~e 1;.Ji l l __ tel l _>'c1iJ ther·e a.re ti,1;0 possi b1 e r·eason-:::. v..1hy

3 you could impose, two legitim~te reasons for imposing

4 pun it i 1.Je d.3.rnage·:;. One is to punish this Defendant and make

5 them pay some money to Howard for what they have done to him.

6 The other r~ason is a deterrent to other people.

7 You can send a message here to the rest o+ the tabloid world

8 that this kind of stuff, this collection of rumors and the

9 vicious headlines an·d e 1v 1 er;--thin1;r el=-e th.3.t the tota.l lack cif

10 any knowledge about whether i t was true or false is not up to

11 /'our· ·::.t.3.n1jard·::. of t.<Jhat the Arner i can pre·:;s ought to be .3.bout.

12 It is that simple.

13 If you do not do that and I suggest maybe an award

14 of ·$500,00_0 in punitive da.mage·,; is .justified, if you.do not

15 do that you Know what will happen and I do too. It does not

16 take a geni~s to decide that.

'
'. 17 A cou~le of ye.er.rs frorrr nor,tJ !,tJhen t-hi·=- trial is-

18 history, there will be .,,n .;.rticle in the tabloid .3.nd i t tvill

19 show the back· of the bald head and i t will say these are one

20 of the tramps on Dea.1 y Pl a.z.3., .:;.nd then it t.<Ji 11 start

21 specul-3:.ting about Hc1J..tJard Hunt, 1.Nhether he 1,vas one C•f the

22 tramps.
23 Then the article will quote that distinguished

24 journalist, A.J. Weberman, who will say, yes, I made this

25 charge /~ears ago and i t wi 11 .. quote that di -::.ti ngu i shed

( ..
I
I

47

.•.'
._iournal--ti·5t, Victcrr t·'1.3.r·chetti a.rJJj he I.Mill sa;.', /'es, I J.Mrote a.

2 piece atiou t it i.r!. the _~;pot 1 i gh t in 1 '7'7::::. That is i,~Jha t l..'J i 11

3 ha.ppen.

4 t.Jhen t°'1r. Hunt di es, i t dco?-=:- ncit take rr1uch

5 imagination to see the headlines, convicted Watergate

6 conspir.:ttor·, E. Ho1,~J-3..rd Hunt, died tcid.3./'" and with him the

7
secret of the JFK assassination. That is what wil 1 happen, I
8 1;iuar·antee you.

9 Send them a message, ladies and gentlemen, and the

10 onl~/ la.nguage tha.t the/' understa.nd, it is like going to a

11 movie and seeing something that really offends you, really

12 repels you and disgusts you. What will you do about it?

13 !...Jel 1, /'OU C-3..n r;Jr·i te a letter· to th2 director- or pro,jucer· and

14 say your fjlms are trash, I will never go see another one or
15 instead of writing that letter you can do another thing. You
16 can withhold your money. You can hit him ln the pocketboo~

17 the next time lhat they come out with one you do not give
18 them your dollars, and that sends the message, the money that
19 the;,,. uncjer·~.t.3.nd} -3.nd I think th.,.t is all that the)' do
20 understand"'
21 T-3.ke the Hunt fa.rni1y ciff of this cro-s:.s, 1,<Jhen t"1r.
22 Hunt d[es~ he is going to be referred to as the Watergate
23 There is no question
24 about that, he is stuck with that. That is his lot in 1 ife.
25 He J,<Jil1 never escape that, tiut let~s not have thc1-s:.e headlines
 48
;>.r'.·r.
:.·.
when hi~ children grow up And they become ten, twelve,

3 Watergate conspirator, an a11~ged Presidential assassin,

4 Howard Hunt died today.

5 Let us send them a message. Thank you very much.

6 ·THE C:C1URT ! J...Je 1,•,1 i 1l t-3.ke -3. brief ten rn i nu te recess.

7 MF~. LANE: May c·.Je have a "· i de b."\r •

8 (Thereupon, the Jury was removed from the Jury box.)

9 (Thereupon~ a side ba~ conference was had at the Bench,

10 outside the hearing of the Jury.)

l l MP. LANE: Your· Honor-, I move for mi~.trial at this

12 point because of a statement made by Mr. Snyder that punitive

13 a.nd cornpens.::i. tcir)__,. clarn-Ei.ge·s. ·;:.houl d be .3-_i,~.ta.rded 3.ga. inst the

14 [1efend-3.nt in this ca:.s.e a.s. a. rnessage tel al·l tabloids, ncit .ju-:.t

15 tc1 punish this one, but a·;;. a mes.·s.age tc1 .:r..1-1 t.:r..bloi•js. in

16 Americ-3.~ 3.n•j tha.t is an irnprciper· a.ssertion an•j consideration

17 for da.mages. . .. ·~. : -:. -: -

18 THE COUPT: Motion is denied.

19 (Thereupon, a short recess was had, after which the

20 fol lc:rv;ing prcrcee1jing-::. v.1ere resurneij.)

21 (Thereupon, the Jury entered the Jur~ box.)

22 THE COUPT: Counsel for the Defendant, you may

23 commence /~our Closing Argument.

24 MP. LANE: May it pl ease the Court, my col 1 eagues at

25 both benches and above all, you members of the Jury in this

::~.~.;.
._;
 4'7'

case. Jhis ha.·;:. been a. rerr13.rka.ble kind c1f tria.l in a numbr c1f
2

3 feel ino·3 ab·:iut recent hi·3tor/' i:)f America tha.t we

- '
4 ha 1.;e di ..::.cu·:=.se,j ~ and yet IJJe ha 1.Je done it, I thin~~, in the rnost

5 remarkable way in that there has been so 1 ittle acrimony

6 dur·if-r1;t the tr-ial. I have been involved in trials over the
7 >'ea.rs IAJi th import.;.nt issues, issues th.3.t I felt r..•.Jere

8 irnpcirtant and (Jften ther·e i·:::. he-3..ted exchange .:::::--:.-·i 1••."'•--;..;.c1nal

9
sta.ternents rrr.3.di?, and I r..•.Jol d l i ~~e to tha.n~~ m>' coll eague·3 her·e""
10
Mr. Snyder and Mr. Dunne and those of you who were working
11
r,\lith me, i.,1r~ Lee and 1"1iss ldhitmore fc1r al1 the efforts t.<Jhich
12 they have all made to see that this emotionally charged

14 .,_-,_-,_- 0
_, '- •r·d.o.. r,,_-~_-
,- "Jl·t,L,.t_c,.,_
., I t_r·o_,j1·t_1·L-,r,·--
,_, -. ,_-,f tc-
.Ill:: B·r
·='· -t-
U tc·1-
.II ·::;. --,Jrt
1_u ·
I .r·;,/ ~

15 but rncist of a-.11 I t....1ou1d 1 i~~e tci tha.nl( the Court for no·t on17~

16 the f;;.irnes·;; ,_,.Ji th <;.Jhich he h2.s tre.o.ted us al 1 in this

17 Courtroom, but•for the manner in which his presence has been

18
felt in the most remarkable.way.
19
I believe in taking this Kind of a case and seeing
20 to it that i t was presented in the best traditions of the
21
Arner i c.3.n Bar, it is a sma.11 -3.rea. up here~ it i =· one of these
22 unusual Kinds of buildings wherein this Courtroom is on the
23
eighth floor and, therefore, we meet each other in the
24
el e\.1 ator~- i:)r pass each either and I am sure you .=i..11 re.=i..1 i :z:e

25 that i f we do not say hello or good morning or good afternoon

 5D

•'
I You are the Jury and we

2 are not supposed-±o have any contact with you.

3 EiJerything f/Je do 1,.ve d:o fc1r :;.~ou, of course, but at

4 least that ~sour concept of it. It does not always work out

5 that way that you think it should be going, but that is

6 impossible for us to do any more than even nod i f we see each

7 other out of the Courtroom. Th.;.t is until the trial is civer,

8 of course.

9 It is a strange system·, the .Jury· system. I h al,1 e

10 been ijc1in1;i things like this fc•r alrnost thirt>~-fji.;e years nov.;,

11 and I never really get used to the idea that we have a kind

12 of a relationship with you and we cannot talk to you and say

13

1.4 :;r~our verdict. It is a strange kind of a relationshi_p and

15

16 the point long before we abandoned the area, and I apologize.

17 I probably hav; done it in this case.

18 I suppose there is probably not a case where I have

19 not done it and we do not always make th~ point thoroughly

20 enough, and there a.re unansvJered questions l.\lh i ch we have ·1 eft

21 hanging out there, which maybe means the "Jury system is not

22 such a great system, maybe there should be some other way,

23 but I -3..rr1 conr.; i nce•j v.Jh i 1 e the .Jury sy·;;.tern is not a gracious

24 system, it is by far better than anything else which we can

25 ccrmpari? it 1,tJi th ...

'\ •• ·';..!
 51

'.
I
• We have had a num5er of important matters before us

. 2 He will close again, another

3 Closing Argument after I sit down, and that is because the

4 burden of .prc1c1f is on thern, .3-nd th.::tt i-::. not .just a. phr·ase to

5 pass on and say that explains the order. That means that
6 they have the burden of proof and they have to prove, as you
7 will see, when the Court g[ves you the instructions with
8 clear and convincing cl~rl ty.
9 Some of the basic questions we do not have to prove
10 anything, they must do that. That is why they are glven the
<
' 11 advantage of speaking after we f !nlsh.
12 Nowj Mr. Snyder may say some things in his next

13 forty minutes or so and I will be unable to say anything. I

14 c.3.nnot a.n·s1A1er.him:"?- I -3.m not cc1mp1'.3".ining or sa::<ing it i=:.

15 unf.3.ir·. Th.3.t i-::. t"1or;\f i t i·:., .a.nci the fact I do not get up a.nd

16 say that I want to answer that that is not true, the fact
rl 17 that I do not ;ay that does not mean I may not think that.

18 We have to all rely upon you. You came in here, not Just as

19 irnp.3.r·ti.:.1.l .Jur·ors, but bringing J..\li th ;.~ou ;-/ciur l ife,.s

20 experiences and ;.;our understanding and )"our intelligence ·2.nd

21 you have been 1 istening very carefully.

22

23 have been watching, and I almost always say lt, but it is not

24 always tr-ue. It is true in this casex It r-eally is. I

25 noticed you focuse•j .3.nd you shou 1 ,j ~ because first of a. l 1 it

', .
 52
,·:
i =· .
your· dut;-' and second crf
'
~all ycru t-·.Ji 11 tel 1 your

2 grandchildren ab~~t thls, you are a piece of American history

3 already, and when you del iber~te} when you come back with

4 that verdict, natur·al 1y }'CiTJ ar·e inter·ested and }'OU p-3.Y

5 21.ttention.

6 I t would be odd i f that were not so. i'JCrtJ,J, 1..tJE' have

7 had investigations in the past regarding the death of

8 President Kennedy. I P~nc111.J atiout S(:irne of thern. I real 1 }' knot-•.J

9 about all of them. I guess I studied them ~ince the day

10 after the assassination of President Kennedy up.to the

11 pr·esent tirne and I ha Je IJJritten

1 scrme books, as }'OU !<now,

12 a.trout the suti._iect ~

13 I am what you refer to as a conspiracy theorist.

14 Mr. Snyder made reference to that or an assassination buff.

15 I want to tell you what a conspiracy theorist or an

16 assassination buff is.

17 It i-::.•a human being tvho Killed m/,. Pre-::.ident~ -I t

18 means something to me that my President was K111ed and that

19 the Government of the United States has never conducted a

20 serious investigation to tell us the truth, and i f that makes

21 us a. little odd, I i•!Onder iohat it ffi-"<kes t[ie r·est of the

22 people 1JJho do not take that position.

23 I t lJ.Jas, in fact} a L·Jar·ren Cornmission Report and

24 there WE-re very distinguished members on it, the Chief

25 Justice of the UnitE<d States was the chairman of 1t and

 2 a.nd it 1;.J.~.s .~. 1;Jell b.3.l2._c1ced pc1litic3.1 or•;t-3.niza.. tion tv..10

3 Demcrcra t-::., tvJo Reputrl i c2.ns, trAl.O Sena.tors~ ti,..JQ c:ongr·es·srnen'

I .

4 tv.Jct cif the Hcru-=:.es. c1f Repr-e·;;.en t.3. ti ves and abcn..ie all the for·rner

5 Director of the CIA,·fired bY John F. Kennedy for betraying

6 him, lying to John Kennedy, not as Mr. Snyder said, because

7 Jcihn Kennedy did nc:rt pro 1.} i de air cover because Dull es 1 i ed

8 and said we do not need air cover when the young new
I
' 9 President was involved in this invasion.

10 They said, now, we need air cover and John Kennedy

·! 11 found out later· the CIA 1 ied to him tci trap hirn into th2.t
12 i n•.).3.s.i on .3.nd he 1,\JCrJJl d nc1 t cornrni t the Arner i can rni l i i;2.r;.' force·;;.

13 to it. So he fired Dulles for lying to him in trapping him

14 into that fiasco.

15 When Dulles became a member of the War-ren Commission

16 -3.nd the press said it is real l )'' .3. 1/Jel 1 ba.l .3.nced pcil it i cal
17 commis~.icrn, it--s.hould ncit h2.ve been a political cornrnis.o.;;.ion

18 and, secondlyJ 1t was not well balanced.

19 John Kennedy Just had been elected. Ther-e 1,vas not a

20 Kennedy Democrat on that entlre seven member commission .. The

21 first thing they did and they said they ~eported it before
22 they took one word of evidence, the general counsel held an
23 exclusii.Je inter- .;ie1,.9 with the
1 t'Je1,9 '(ork Tim>?s, publ i·::.hed i t
24 starting on. the front page of that newspaper and he said this
25 is ho1.N 1;.1e are gc1ing to conduct the investigation, the
 54

/
Preside,.nt,/-::. Cornrni·ssic n 1 on.A·s·sassin.3..tions of F'r·es.ii:fent

3 Mr. Snyder tells us ~bout i t and we should accept

5 a senior cotinsel and a junior counsel, and al 1 of the

6 evidence V.Jhich reaches our commis.sicin 1,9ill come through these

7 six p.~nel ~ nurntrer one, r;.Jh.2.t 1jid Lee Ha-.r 1.,iey Oswald do on

8 f'.~0 1.,1 ember

9 Panel number two, Oswa1d;s background, and Panel

I0 number three Lee H.=i.rt.'e/· Os1;.Ja.l, United :3ta. tes f°'1ar i ne c:orps .3..nd

11 in the Soviet Union, so the strange juxtaposition for Panel

12 three, that is the way the said i t , and Panel number four~

13 how did Jack Ruby kill Lee Harvey Oswald in the basement of

14 the Perl ice .~nci Cour·t Buildin•;i.

15 Five, Ruby's background and six the role of the

16 Secret Service in protecting the President that day. And I

17

18 I was called there to give them information.

19 I guess my primary credentials, as far as they were

20 concerne,j, t.(,Jas I was not in Dallas on November 19·~·3, ·.and

21 they· 1;...1ere 1 c1c1k i ng for norr-1JJi tnesses and I 1;.;as cine 5

22 When I testified, I said to the Chief Justice I read

23 your outline in the Times. I see the six panels you set up,

24 you know i f I had been here I would have suggested a seventh

11
25 panel and he said, F~eal l:;-.. , 1;.;hat would you~ call it?"
 ,r·
!

• Isa.id, "Something lif:e, l;Jho Killed Pr·e·,;ident

2 Kenned/', 11
becau=..e.. i t L.:=. ncrt in ther·e.
3
From the rnornent the q::c,rr1rni ·=·=-ion rr1et, before the}' took
4
one word of evidence through Panel number one, what did Lee
5 Harvey Oswald do on November .1 '7'.53?
6
They decided they would solve the case and i f Morita
7 Lorenz came with video tapes of Mr. Hunt and Mr. Sturgis, and
8 if the:-..' h.3.,j picture-=· frorn hel icopter·s of the shcrotin•;t ta1';in•;i
9 pl a.ce fr·Drr1 behind the 1J.Jc•oden fence on the gra·ss/' l<nol l frorr1

10 three different areas on Dealy Plaza~

11
They decided they wanted to confess and they went to
12 the t·J2.rren C:cirr1rrr i ·:=.·=·ion. The}' could not fin1j a panel tcr talk
13 to because that was not their concern. I t l..\L3.S .:;r. pcil i t i c.;i.1

14

15 conspiracy theorists and the rest of them, the last poll

16
showed over 85 per cent of the American people rejected the
17 tJarren C:ornrr1 i ·;;·::;ion,.·::. Report~ .3.nd the;.~ v.Jere conv i need i t vJas. a
18 consp i r·ac)-' tcr Ki 1 l Pres i ,jen t }(enned;-; t,\Jhen er.,r i de nee shcrl..tJS
19
shots came from two different directions at the same time.
20 You are not a conspiracy theorist. If you conc1·ude
21
that there probably •AJ.3,s a conspiracy to kill the President,
22 you are Just a person with an ordinary common sense, and that
23 is what the evidence has proved conclusively, and the House
24
Select Committee on Assassinastions was set up in 1978.
25 said take every·thingj the Warr·en C:omrnission,,.s Repor·t and it
-·...
is ti;.;ent>'-six .Jo1urnes
1
in a.)~1, the Liba.rie·=· of the i_lniteij

2 St2.te·:. 2.rJij sta.mp __ Qn th~ ccr 1.,.1er, 1.,..Joid, l',!o Lon1~er !.)a.lid. The>'

3 concluded the evidence convincrd them of all probability that

4 there had been a conspi~acy to kill President Kennedy.

5 1,.Jh2.t about a.11 the time before then, from 17-'.53 tcr

6 1$'78 .;hen
1... the Governrnent said that Os1Atalcl ijid i t a.16ne. I,.Jas

7 that the truth of we are Just coming through 1984 and George

8 Orwell said there is truth and there is untruth.

9 There a.re offici.a.1 truths and there are re·a.1 truth=.,

10 and i f -.=.hcit=- ca.rne fr·1:irr1 a.t least twc1 c:fir·ection-.::., the LJ2.rr·en

11

12 Although for fiteen years i t survived until people

13 1 ike 1-)ictor· !"1.s.rchetti ha.d the cour-3.ge to t.3.ke the different

14 path from the one that Mr. Hunt took to turn his back. He

15 never was involved in what Mr. Hunt was doing;

16 disinformation, character assassination, planning murders,

17 1/ing and cheat"ing.

18 As par·t of his life, Mr. Marchetti did not have that

19 kin1j of ;a_ cl irnate. That i-::. true,.

20 He testified he 1,<..1as a G-1.5. A G:-15 is not a go-.fc1r,

21 and a G-15 is a high-ranking person, and he got that position

22 long before Mr. Hunt QDt his in terms of longevity in the

23 org.5<.n i za. ti on. It is like.;;. full colonel in the rnilitar·y. He

24 was a young man when he achieved that position, but he ran

25

!
 57

into -3. 1
1 i ttl e trouble tiec.3.tJ·~.e he ~-~.11..r VJhat the CIA VJ-3.5- doing

and thcrught the .Brner-ii;_an public had a. r·ight to ~~nof/J ·atiout it.

Robert Frost talks about seeing two paths and he

'
tr·a•Je 11 ed. Mr. Marchetti did the one that was travel led by

and th.3.t made al 1 the difference, -~.nd a.s Robert Frost said

and it did for Mr. Marchetti. I think i t is probably true

that he was not well off financially when he wrote this

piece. I think that is probably true.

He die! ncit ha 1.Je a. big house 2.nd 2. ·31;..1irnming p.ool th~t

Mr. Hunt did. He did not write the article for mor•~)', got
11.
paid $500. Th.::i.t is nc1 t going to ch-3.nge his life, but it is
12 true he had suffered because he had been moving on to an

13 honora.ble pci-:=.iti(Jn.

14 Well, we have the Warren Commission and we had the

15 Roc~~efe11er c:ornrnis=.ion a.nd r,tJe ha.d the high-r.~nl<ing people,

16 and you heard their names many times, and you probably will
17
hear a lot mor~ when Mr. Snyder gets up for his last forty
18
rr1inutes.
19
They are officials, and they know what is best for
20 us. They decided what is best for us. They decided
21 =:-crmet imes the truth 1,t.Ji 11 be the k i n 1j of thing that t-t.Je c.~nno.t

22 That is why Watergate tooK place, not because of

de.>.l with.
23 He did not invent it, but because it is a concept
Mr-. Hunt .
24 that some people have in Go .;ernment that they know wha.t 1 is
25
It runs through everything Mr. Hunt and Mr.
 58

(
Liddy djd and said and I i~ten to Mr. Liddy, not that Mr.

3 I ittle more tast for Mr. Lidd1 than I do for Mr. Hunt. He

4 stucK to his principles. He had principles. He 1;.;ent to ja.i 1

5 for a much longer period of time. He is not what I would

6 like to have 1 iving next door to me as a neighbor, frankly,

7 from the fr·-~.rnet.tJc:irk !;Jh i ch h.e t~Ja.s c1pera:.t i ng·. I see i kind of a

8 ccirnrnittrnent tc1 principle, cc1lle1;ie kids 1jc1 1 too, -::.or-t of

9 scar/'.

10 He is the number one lecturer on the college campus,

11 crn campus ti::i1ja:_)-.. a-.nd they a.re respcrn1jing tcr sornething th.3.t he

12 doe=:. err· sa.>.. ~-, and I gue-::.·=. p-3.rt C!f i t he i_,._ic,u1 d not be bc u ;iht.
1 1

13 He is li:J~·'.3.1 to 1,".ihat he ccinceil.)e·=. to tre hi·;. principle·.=..

14 His explanatio~ of the Muskie matter, I thought that

15 was really intrestingw They destroyed Ed Muskie, the CIA

16 v.iith t""1r·. Hunt's appro .,ia.1 ,jjd a pr·c,file,-
1 p>>~chological

17 prof i 1 e. They·couldcfo that on -~n;l c1f us..,th.3.t·:the/·1.AJ2.nt to-_

18 dcr i t on. They have done i t on me. But·they ·do not do it on

19 rr1ost people bec.?.use i t is not re1evant, but i f you decide to

20 run for President and take a position or.the Senate whe~~- you

21 spoke out -3.g.a.inst the CIA,- they ma:/ do one on /~cru, and then

22 they are very sophisticated. They have a remote commission

23 in Washington, you do not even know they are doing i t . They

24 see friends and neighbors and they gather all kinds of

25 information and they say they VJi 11 pre di ct ho\'J you wi 11 react

.,.
 55·

lf some~ne steps on your l.eft toe and they think it is

ir·r·a.tiona.l in tecJT1·;; of_1. .;hat }'()!J are ifter, the)-' wil1 step c1n

your left toe in public, -3.nd jhey decided l·lr. Muskie re«.l ly

loved his wlfe and would really react badly if his wife was

cr.iticized public1y.

He had an emotional feeling about her, for whatever

the ba.ckgrc1ur11j is I 1jo not knci1,._i, so they did that, and he

er· i ed.

His wife was attackedJ so he was moved. Th.3.t 1J.J2.S

the bi •;i s.tor~..-. He was removed as a Presidential candidate

and Mr. Liddy said that was a good thing to do because i f he

1,0c11Jld h.;i. 1.,1e cr-ied in fr-ont of the F~us.·;;ia.ns, loci~~ hc1v..r b.;;r.d it

i-=:., so the/' ·=..;;r.r.,ied u-=:. fr·c1rr1 the a.drr1ini·::.tra.tion c1f F'r·esiijent

Muskie, perhaps, and m~ybe l t would never have happened

I am very old fashioned. I say let the American

peop1 e rnake thi?"i r· c11A1n rni stakes. We have gone on for a couple

of hundred years without a bunch of spooks and spies being

paid b;.' u·5, cc1rr1ing ciut of.the -s.ha,jot\JS to destro;.' the fabr·ic

of our democracy and our society, because they know what ··is

I think we know what ls best for us.

Commission is in the dustpans of history. I t 1JJill be jc)ined

by the other reports and we now have what we have waited for
~ ..

112 60
,···

3 We have a people's commission and you are the

4 people's commission. You have not been appointed by any

5 Pr·esident. No one will reward you or punish you for looking

6 at the evidence and rendering a just verdict.
7 I «.m not like Mr. Sn;.-der. I cannot predict what the
8 headline~- in the tabli:Jic!s 1,.Jjll t:1e tomor·rc1w should t·-1r. Hun_t die
I
9 in the near future.
10 Mr. Snyder said I guarantee you this ls what they
11 !pJ i ] l a:.1 1 52.)"' • That i·=. a.s l i t t l e bit like Mr. Ma.rchetti
"-';'

12 predicting what was going to happen in the future.

13 will sue Mr. Snyder for making the same Klnd of statement,
14 because people have opinions and· because they can us~ them and

15 pr·edict thern but I do kncrt.-t.J J;.Jh-3.t ti..iill tn? important for this
16 country for you to seriously consider the evidence in the case
17 a.nd to arrilJe -3.i: -3. just ~;erdict, and that Wil·l be·scrmething."'-

18 else always I bel ive to be proud of.

19 Mr. Snyder said that Spotlight had said in that

20 ar·ticle that E. Hmoar·d Hunt is the clohn 1,Jilkes. Booth of the

21 Twentieth Centur:·/. He said that several time=:.. That is the

22 most outrageous thing I heard. There is nothing in the

23 article that sa>~s .;.nything like that. That is an outrageous

24 slur on Mr. Hunt.

·";'.
25
''·

(
 61

.ram not wild about the things Mr. Hunt has done over

3 ;Jilkes Booth of the T11Jentieth qentur·y. If we had published

4 th.3..t I !/Joul d not be here 1jefen1ji ng the publ i cat i crn.

5 Mr. Snyder said it, but he did two things that I want
. L
6 c ornrnen 1_ go in and spend a lot of time, and he

7 a::.king you for· S)-'rnpa.thy for t·'1r·. Hunt. I am not going to talk

8 tci yc1u about the tr.3.ge,jies. in t1r. t-'1-~rchettir=:. life, pr.obl~rn=:.,

9 se1,1ere one·s v,ri th children, 1.Mife, grandpa.rents, et cetera, ncir

10 of Mr. Carto, nor of Mr. Tucker.

11 I promised you in the beginning of this case that I

12 ,oJou l d no.t ask fo·r /'our -=·>'mpa. th/'. I would ask only for

· ...·
14 Mr. Snyder made the same promise, symp.athy is all

15 well and good someplace else, and everyone has tragedies and

17 the free .1.Jill

1• t~ rna.~~e the determina.tion a·s tcr r,\Jha.t is ri1~ht

18 and 1;,Jhat is v1rcrng an,j !;Jaterg.a.te was ncrt a third-r-ate burglar)'

19 f1Jr which· -=:.i::imerJne -:.hold be 1.;tiven thirt>' d.a.ys in jail.

20 It was an outrage, a continuing outrage as was the

21 _o•.Jerup of it.

22 The other part that Mr. Snyder has spent a great deal

23 :if time ta.1king about, besides the a.ppeal fc r

1
sorr1etime, it

24 eally fails to say that he said he calls it Libel by

25 ·uxtaposition. Listen carefully when the Court tells you what

'.
 62

the la.l/.J Js! if ::-~ou hear· a:.n>~thing a.bout Libel b/' juxt.;i.pc;sfticin.

2 It 1;.J.:i.=· .j us.f i nvent_e1j.

3 There ls no such thing as Libel by juxtaposition.
4 hat is posing as a burn. That article that Mr. Weberman has

5 1ade the assertion that those three people in photographing

6 including Hunt a.nd Sturgis h.::i.s been pub1 i-shed in the t'.Je~J '(orY~

7 imes ancl er.,1er;.' leading ne1;.Js.p.3.per- in Arnerica. Th.3.t is 1;Jha.t

8 ;Jeberma.n sa:,s and that is hor_,_1 it is publ i·;;hed here. That _is

9 what i t says that when Weberman and Ganfield say Mr. Marchetti
10 does not say i t is true, I kno•;J

1l a.bout that • I was the first one to get that picture.

12 In the closing days of 1963, I tooK it to the Dallas

13 F'ol ice Dep.:r.rtrnent, thc1s.e three pecrple 1 the fir·s.t time I 1,1,J.;i.s

14 gi .Jen
1• it to me by a. reporter·, tt~Jcr phc:itcri;iraphs, i t shov.;·s three
15 people with an office in front and back, an~ you cannot say ft

16 shows they are under arrest. It is not a motion picture.

18
pol ice officer in front of the bank and they are leading these

19 thr·ee men a1~t.i2.}~ -3.nd the;:.~ a.r·e corning frc•m an 2.r·e2. nea.r· the

20 gra~-sy kno1 l to v>h i ch the el; i de nee showed 1,tJhere the shots

21 c-3..rne, a.nd I took it. I never said i t was ·Hunt· or Sturgis. I

22 did not think i t was Hunt and Sturgis.

23
I tcrc1K it to the Da1 las Pol ice and =:-.3.id three pec1ple

24
were arrested right where President Kennedy was killed, and we
25
 63

2 the-::.e pec1p 1 e, ne~;er· an _ans.11.Jer·.

3 The 1;.J.3..rr·en ,-._.ornrr1 .1 ·;::.·;; .1 ccn i never ga1J e an an sz;Je r • The

4 Rockefeller Cornrni·;;sic n, all 1 the officia.1 r·eport=-~ no a.nswer,

5 ncrbcrd>; l<nOJ;.JS !;..th Cr the>~ are.

6 When I wrote my first book I said the Warren

7 Cornrni ssi crn co 1.;erup and treatrnent crf documents, l i l<e

8 photographs, where they hide the factual area in which people

9 ~ill speculate f6r a decade about what really happene~.
10 Tel 1 the Arner·ic-3.n people the truth so ther·e i·=· ncr

11 need for specul~tion. That was my plea for years~

12 I s.a i ,j i t 1,..1 i 1 1 1 .::v;; t for -3. c!e- c acle , tru t i t n c11J.J go i ft>;!

13 into our· third clecade and 1;.Je =·ti 11 do n•:it kno1,.._1 .3.nd the peop1 e

14 ,.._ri11 still ·::.pecul.Ei.te ancl a.-=-~~ que·:;.tic1n-::. and the}' -::.hc1ul1j~ until

15 ,ve are told the tr·uth.

16 Sorne pe-ople in the press, 1oca.1 and other·1,\li~.e~ a11

17 around the coun1ry may take the position that nobody cares

18 .3,bou t th i s -3.n ymor e • I think people care i~~~ about t ncir,...1

19 th."n they did .just after i t h<>.ppened. I think we al st i 1 1

20 care -~bout i t.

21 Yc1u kno1,tJ r.Nhat makes us alrnost residents c1f this

22 country, at a certain age, I thlnk you are most o1d enough to

23 rernember· f.~ir·l>' wel 1 tha.t 1,...re rernernber t-tJher·e 1,t.1e r,...rere crn

24 lovember 22, 1963. It is almost something· that 11..re had a.11 in

25 comrnon t>Ji th each other. Most of us 'Nho 1 ived in this country

(
 64
(.:;.
\' ..
I'•" at tha.t -.t. irne a.rirj thc'-=-e v.Jho -St i 11, ::,,·ou ma;... ncit remember v.;here

3 anniversary or what you did wh~n you graduated from college

..·', 4
that night, but I will bet you you remember where you were on
5
1963, .when you heard the President was kil1-ed.
6
I w i l 1 bet e.:r.ch of you, i f ;-··cru wer·e charged J..\J i th

7 being down there and you were going to bring a big lawsuit not
8

9
say you were in school, you might not know ·the name of every
10 cl.;i.-::.sma.te, but i f you cc1r11jucted an in 1.)estigatic1n I/11 bet yc1u

l l ca.n remember the narr1e of e 1.,.1ery student cir -?. lot of them.
12 There is nobody here on this Jury who could not

.. 13 provide a. Cour·tr·oorn full c1-f L'Ji tnes·3es as to 1;Jhere /'-'OU v.;ere,

,.
·'-

'.
14 scrmetirne clurini~ tJ-r.3.t d.::i.;',. the rncir-nin•;t, afterncion, ei...•ening"

15 You 1,0JC)u1d not ha. 1.}e corne in t.•Ji th three CIA 1,"1i tnes·:;.es vJhc:i ar·e

16 tr.;. i ned to 1 i e,. 1,·.;hc1 ha. 1.,ie tai{en an 1Ja th not to tel

l7 i f y1::iu r:Ji 11 be incon\.'en i enced for the Ager1Cy. -

18 Where are Mr. Hunt's children? One was fourteen and

19 she ls now all recovered, Mr. Hunt told us. One was thirteen,

20 one was ten and one is a lawyer now. One is a law student.

21 They were with him for three days. He told

~.Jhere are the>'?
22 ever-yone, let me sher....; :;.-~ou what he said, there- i =· the chart

23 that puts lt together, what the various positions were that

24 Mr. Hunt and =-ome of his 1,9itnesses have taken-about this
25
 65

ratter ... They s.a_j,j i t 1..v.;:vs c1atr.3.gec1usl/' f.a.lse, rn-3.licici1Js, to

2 say· hi·;. alibi 1;Jas. __cc1rr1i nr;:r unstuck.

3 In fact, that was one;of the few things which Mr.

4 Snyder· sa_j,j l).J.~:=., in fact, false, in the ar·ticle.

5 He pointed out in i:he Opening Statement 2.l.ibi, first

6 he said Mr·. Tr·e-nto~ l).Jhc· IJ.Ja ·;:. a di-=.t i ngu i shed repor·ter f c1r the

7 Ca.bl e t'Jer;JS r-..Je ti,<Jor f<' VJ ho VJr o t e the piece, as }'OU k. n ov.J, in the

8 \) i 1rnir11~ton ne1:Jspaper, l..'JhC1 Mr-. Ceil s.on kn Ol;JS., Mr·. Colson is the
- \
9 source of the story, Mr. Colson gave that story tb Victor

10 "1a.r-chetti -3.nd g.3.i....1e it tc1 .Jere Tr·entcr and TrE-nto 1,•.Jas td.l~~ing

11 abciut ·;.omething and then he ca.lled Angel tern fr·orri Colson,,.s

12 office. He testified to that.

13 He would not tell us what it was about because he

14 just heard about the memo with Angelton/s signature.

He said I wfll not talk to you

16 an;,...mc:ire.

'" 17 This i~ a sto~y based upon the article, based upon

18 opinion. It !s a predlction, and Mr. Snyder says why do they

19 say instead of CIA to nail Hunt, CIA to frame Hunt, because

20 then i t •1JOUld be taking a position. The article did not-take

21 a positfcrn. It could have said CIA to prove Hunt guilty.

22 hat would have taken the other position, so there are two

23 extremes. You could say the CIA memorandum shows that Mr.

24 Hunt is guilty or he is innocent and they are framing him and

25 1r-. Marchetti and Spot] ight that wrote the headline, why did

•r
 66

they write the headline? ~hat headline is perfect for the

2 stor·y. Ther·e is ru::ithirLQ Spc1 tl ight ,:jjd l.J.Jhi.ch 1..1.Jould change that

3 story. Every story is edited. f

4 I have written articles for publ lcations all aroun!:l

5 the world. I never wrote a headline in my 1 ife.
6 .3.tternpt tci bec.3.use I ~:nct1;.J no hea.dl i ne I wi 11 ei.)er· v.1r· i te 1;Ji 11

7 be used. They hai.,,re peop1e to do th.;-.t. Th.at is the

8 consi.::fer·.;.tion. Any newspaperman will tell you, space, size,

9 flair. "(ou t.tJa-.n t some bod;-' to r ea.d the story. That is why they
10 print i t , and as Mr. Tucker said, but Mr. Snyder did not read
11 that.
12 It has to be the truth and reflect what the sour·ce
13 That is what the story said, CIA was golng to nail
14 Hunt, b1 arne .h irn base1j upon the rnerrrcir·-~ndurn a.nd that 1,1.Ja-=. .~n

15 cipinion, could not be i be 1 •

16

17 could not be libel, ei... en i f i t is really crazy and corrrpletefy

1

18 Jr· on g.
1...

19 We will get into the discussion of law in Just a bit

20 and, remember, you agreed to fo.llow the la1,.J as gi 11

... en to yci:u b:;.'

21 the Court and it i ·;; not up tc1 you or· me to say the 1 d.JA! is good

22 or bad or e 1...ien up to the Judge to say the 1 at..; is good or bad.

23 The law is the law and we live by i t and publ le
24 figures 1 ive by a different law than I know about, because
25 from the 1 a1,,,,,_u its I brought because I understand '"hat the 1 aw
 67

"
ls, in June of 1975 the Ro~kefeller Commission issued its

2 report after Mr.-Munt ~ad been there,· and this is what they
3 s.3. i d. Contacts were relative~, friends, neighbors or

4 employees could not be revealed, I already called, Mr. Hunt

5 could not recall for- the RocVefeller Cornrr1is=:.ion. ·-rou see ho1;,1

6 ma.r-iJe-1 ou·;:;. the Roc~~efe1 l er· Cornrni =·si i::in is. i'Jot 1 i ke real

7 trials where .people make decisions not back there in the

8 secret chambers, they said that they looked into i t and Hunt

9 could not recall contacts·with anybody on November 22nd.

10 The Rockefe 11 er· Ccrrrirn i -::.s ion h.;_1j a 1 crt of pu 1 l . The>'

11 COIJ l d have got ten CIA fi 1 e=:.• b.Je cou 1 d not do· th2.t They

12 cou 1 d h .:r.t,i e gotten th o-::.e fi 1 e=:. .3.nij they l,.\lOU l d h .3. 1,.r e pro•Jen

13 r..~.ihere Hunt 1...'J-3.S. They di d not fi nd .3.n/'th i ng tci shOl,i.J 11.Jh ere Mr

14 Hunt was, and Mr. Hunt went there and did not tell them about

15 Mr·. Kuzma.I< and did not tell them about Mis·s ~1azer·off.

16 It is funn/', the c1nl)'' t1,~J1J 1,..Jitne-=.se·:; 1;.Jho s.urface in

17 this case, he rrever mentioned to tr1e RocKefe l l er Corr1rn i ss ion.

18 He said about Kuzmak, he did not mention Kuzmak because he

19 had not rece i 1Jed .3. 1 et ter fr·orn Kuzrrt.aJ< /,.et, so what? He 1..'Jas

20 in the car with hirn that rnc1r·ningy an-.d he will be the fir.st

21 one yo~· would think of ordinarily, and they drove to work

22 together almost everyday either in Mr. Kuzmak's car or in Mr.

23 Hunt's c.:i.r. They drove together; even if i t was November 21,

j
24 and we had a witness on November 21. I do not have the

25 fai~test idea what I was doing on November 21. She remember-s

....
•,.
 ,53

\.. when the meeting began and-ended. I have a respect for

•
2

3 Kuzmak is the first Qne who will come to Mr. Hunt's

;

4
11
1 drive to work wlth him everyday. I 1;Jil1 ask hirn. 11

5 Oh, no, he did not mention that, even as a

6 possibi1it:>' to the RocJ<efeller Comrni=·=·ion and never rnentioned

7 who worked ln the same office with him, Miss Mazeroff.

8 We get to July of 1977. This is the lawsuit against

9 f-1r. l,t.\eberrna.n .·

10 I was with a large number of people that ·day, Mary

11 Trainor, three children, neighbors, Mr. and Mrs. Raymond

12 Thomas, Mr. Drexler, that is his testimony, never mentioned

13 Kuzmak, never mentioned Mazeroff.

14 He drove to work with and of course he worked with,

15 did not mention them.

16 LJher·e .3..r·e i1r . .3..nd i'"1rs. Ra;>'rnond Tf-tomas? l·Jhere ar-e

17 the three chi l ck-en? J,,Jhere are the neighbors? i·4ot here, buJ:

18 that is what he told them in 1977, his a1-ibf was shifting.

19 Then we get to 1978. Now, we hav.e his testimony

20 before the Hous.e Assassinations. Cc1rr1m it tee i !"'1r·. Snyder t_ol d

21 you.he-·barged in there, t''lr. Hunt s.;.id the same thing, tc1

22 summarize i t accu~ately of Mr. Hunt's testimony he barged in

23 there, broke doi,vn the ijoor, he wanted to prove tha.t stopy

~ 24 that he t"as in Dal las was a 1 ie and he co~Jld prove i t and he

·.
25 talked to them and what did he tel 1 them when he barged in
 67'

there; that his daughte~, Kevin~ is she? ~-1ary Trainor·,

• A •

2 Leo Drexler, he never mentioned KuzmaK, he never mentloned

3 Miss Mazeroff.

4 He knew about KuzmaK by then because KuzmaK had

5 already written him a letter, according to Kuzmak/s testimony

6 in 19.~.t,. or· 197,5 (:ir· 1'7'77, th.3.t i·E. the testirnon~,...·cif t"lr. t<uzrn.::i.k,

7 .3.nd Hov.;2.r·d Hunt h-3.d the 1 etter, }'CllJ rernember, I 'Ati 11 be /'our

s r,~Ji tnes·=..

9 Then Hunt says I will go to the House· Select

10 c:ommi ttee a.nd I 1;.Ji ll tel 1 thern e1..Jeryth i ng I ha-.l,ie 2.nd he nel,1 er

11 mentions the name of Kuzmak because he never got a letter.

12 It is a ie ~ Where is that documentation? It is gone

13 becau·se And i t was in the file of Mr.

14 Rubin.

15 Now, things are getting into the lawyer's files,

16 seems to get lost. I never Knew of a document lost fn an

17 ongoing case, -that this could happen, whether you have the

18 1 et ter· or- not.

19 He had already received i t , seen it and now he goes

20 befcrre the Select C1::immi tte a.nd he i·:. desper·ate to prot.,.1e he

21 r,vas not in Dallas.

22 He does not rnen ti on his name. We go to November,

23 1'7'81, thi·:; is the c:ieposition, I was queried b>~ my children,

24 any truth to this, he told us about that they were saying,

25 1
tWhere were you, dad, on 1'~0 1•.Jember 22, 1963?"
 70

··.-·.
i .. He s.3.i d, «Don't you remember, kids, we were here for
,
•
2

He said he had to remind them.

3 j

Why does the fourteen year old and a thirteen year

4

old and a ten year old hate to be reminded about that?

5
Incredible, tra.gic, a.n unequalle1j rncrrr1ent in crur· li•Jes,
6
because they were not there and he knows i t and he could not
7
put them on the stand. They were not with him, and his
8
.\ ..• . - -
l avJ}'er and his 1 aJ.AJ student v~1i 11 not corne forl.·Jar·ci and ccr.rnrrri t
9
per._i ur/'.
10

I l/Jonc:ier .3.trcrut th.a.t, 1;.Jh}' the)"' did noti lie. l<Je all
11

have parents. We would do a lot of things for our parents.

12

t12.;.'be 1;.Je t.<Jr.:)U l •j even l ie if it i ·3- .:t b.;r.d rr1a t ter, but i f IJJe
13

thought our parents or one of them was Involved in some

14
terrible act, maybe we just would feel we cannot provlde an
15
al i bi •
16
The pl_a.intiff ha. s the respons.ibi.iit}' tc1 pr·es.ent
17
those witnesses and they did not, and he .did not expl·a~~·i·t~ ·
18

19
It is this case in 1981 and he ne 1..1 er mentioned,. a.n•j
20
then he mentions Kuzmak and Mazeroff for the first time.
21
Then we go to the December of 1981 testimony, and in
22
December of 1981~ in the testimony, he says his daughter
23

becarne very distr-3..ught -3..bout l.Vhether or not he was in Dal las

'' 24
on t'~ovember 22.
25
..
 71

His daughter was fourteen years old .. He never put

thes~ together. You see, he was trying to explain his

•
damages. There are no damages, but he is trying to explain
2

3
We know why he lost ~oney from books and lectures.
4
We will get to that in a bit. There _Js no one allegation,
5
not one dc1curnent th.~.t sho1....Js cine penny of l C)s·;; fr·orn anything,.
6
and we get to damages.
7
Did you ever hear about the Spotlight article? You
8
l i 1, ,.ie her-e in this corr1rnun it>~ r Did·you ever hear about it?
9
You heard about Watergate. You heard about the White H6use
10
bl ad'.ma i l . You heard about a lot of things that might affect
11
your position about Mr. Hunt. Did you ever hear about the
12
Spot l i gh t -3.r ti cl e?
13
Heu,~; did i t 2.-ffect his. r·eput.:ttion in this corr1rr1unit>~ . ?

14
You may never have "heard there was such a publ lcation and i f
15
you read i t , maybe you would not believe i t anyway, so there
16
VJer·e no da.mages, so he had to e>~p1a.iri d3.mages. His children
17
1,tJere di.straught~ He said the children who
18
were distraught because he wa~ 1n Dall·s on November 22.
19
He also said on another occasion or, in fact, his
20
best witnesses to prove he was not there, and that is a
21
contradiction, which destroys the whole-case for Mr. Hunt,
22
·and then we get to his testimony, as I said, in 1981, and we
23
have Hunt saying that he mentioned Kuzmak and then we got to
24

25

.:. .
- -·
I
72

(
Kuzmak/~ deposltion and M~: Hunt says we drove together. I

3 Then t.<.Je have t-'lr·. r<uzrt1-3..k sa.ying he cjid not dr·i ...'e 1
• in
4 !J.Ji th him. This i ·3 the -3.11 bi J..\Ji tness, the. alibi l.iJi tnes=- tha.t

5 Mr. Hunt says will say we drove in together.

6 The alibi witness says we did not drive in together,

7 a.nij then the a.1ibi v.Jitnes·::. sa)-'S that I did see hirn 1.:;r.ter· that

8 da.y on the l at.\Jn . I do not know i f i t was a barbecue or ~

9 pa.r·t;.-.

10 Follcr1;..Jin1;i the di?ath of F'res.ident Kenne1j~>, it 1,\Ja.s .3.

11 stra.nge thin1;r. Everybody was an the lawn eating, and Mr.

12 Hunt c.3..rne cr 1.;er -3.nd his chi 1 dr·en c.arne 0 .,ter .;-.nd Hunt
1
·:;.3. id that

13 is not true, so we have his strongest alibi witness and they

14 do noJ agree on the two basic questions about meeting at the

15 house ._1hen the>; 1 i ve r· i ght next

r_. to e.3.ch other or meeting in

16 the work place where they work next to each other.

17

18 alien pl.3.ce a.nd that is crn the street 1;\JaVing at the car· a·:.

19 the car goes by. That is his witness and in 1984, the Kuzmak

20 depcrsition, I a·:..ked him if he saJ!J Hunt after he learned-abciut

21 the assasination; sure, why not? Pretty. casual for a

22 statement, not in a serious case, but any case, the man is

23 under oath. He has been with the CIA long enough. He knov.;s

24 what that means, why not?

25 They want me to say sure, why not?

 73

.
.
/
We get the 1984 H8nt
, deposition. He probably drove

2 in 1,..;ith Kuzrn2.k. _!<uzrna_l5 ·32_)-,.·;:;. no, the rrronth l:iefore 1.1.Jhen he

3 testified, -3.nd he did not see ,.Kuzrnal< that da.y, after· the

4 and KuzmaK said he saw him after the

5 assa-.·;:;.·;:;. i na. ti on. It i-=:. a. terrific alibi witnes~..

6 We get to February, 1985. In this ca:;:;.e, the onl>'

7 witnesses that they call are CIA witnesses. He 1;.Jas upset

8 a.bout th-3.t ~.t.=-..tement in the 1;.Ji lrnin1;rtc1n pa.per. He sai cl he

9 will at trial on.ly be able to pre~ent CIA arranged witnesses.

10 He was furiqus, because his children, his neighbors, his

11 fr·ienijs, .~.ll these people v.Jere 1;rc1ing to r2.11;.' a.round, only·

12 the CIA witnesses come forward and two letters which could

13 have .3'.t lea.st establi·;:;.hed tha.t this fr·au1julent stor·/' that 1,i,;e

14

15 at least he thought of back in 1?78, they ar·e gone.

16 Dne 1ji sa.ppe-8.red fr·orn i"1r,. Rui:::1 i n'·;:;. f i 1 es and the other

17 one i,tJ-3.s impossr-.ble to get here, al though the>' knew abOut /v1iss

18 Mazeroff coming for a long time.

19 Dc.i yciu bel ie .Je they ne er saj,j Cth,

1 11
... I hal,tE- a client,

20 nel,rer to1 d them he 1,i..Jrote a 1 etter to i"'1i ss i"'1azeroff back .-i~n

21 1978; ~he says she has the letter, but it ls impossible to

22 get here.

23 She was here Tuesday and she testified on Thursday.

24 She said it would have been impossible to get the letter from

25 IlTlnois to here between Tuesday and Thursday.

 74
( .....
·•... • We could put a man on the moon in that period of
2
tirne. l.o.Je e\;en ha~Ve Federal E~<pr·ess. That does not put
3
people on the moon, but it getk documents back and forth
4
ot;ern i gh t.
5
Where is the letter? The original documents that
6
survived from 1978 was Mr. Marchetti's notes, because he is
7
an honest man and those notes were not designed to help h[m.
8
You can see they were not writte~ as an afterthought
9
to help him. He said he w~ote i t and we gave it to you. l,Je
10
have nothing to hide. He never worked. The defense in thfs
11
side, never was involved in the CIA operation. l . Je ne Jer 1•.i..1er·e
1

12
involved in any of our witnesses and misinformation phoneying
13
up cables or documents and so on so i t seems 1iKe you Just
14
act quite n2.tura1 and a-::.k: for it, give it .to hirr1. It help·;;
15
the case or hurts the c·ase.
16
Li..le V.J2.n t )-'OU to under-::.ta.nd that 1,...1e ~are being honest
17
and -::.o -the docurnent ca.rne forv.;ard~ It is ftie:I::····::---.=
only document
...
18
that has survived since 1978. One has disappeared from the
19
la.1,i.J/'er-'s. f[1e 2.nci the either· cannot get here frc•m I1lir1ois. in
20
a.ny peciod of time, so tha.t is a little bit of the
21
ti.ac~~gr·ound.
"-'!
22
Why are they upset about the stat~ment that the
23
alibi won't stand up? Did i t stand up? r·t ends up be[ng
24
what i t was - predicted, onl;.' CIA 1,>Ji tnesse-._s 1..>..ti 11 corne-
25
for1A1a:·r·d, and what I say is just m}' vie1,tj an·d the 1aw on the
 75

case wl~l be given to you by the Judge, and i f there is any

,jcrubt a.bcrut it" t"he ccrart t1,1ill tell },.C1U that a.nd 1,oJe all

understand that is how i t work~, but I am allowed to comment

on 1,9h.3.t I t·el iet)e it is a.nd there is no ma1~ic invc1l1.,12d in

th j "·.

We have conferences, both sides, and the court

tiefore the in·=..tructic•ns to the .Jury or fina.lize it, i t doe·;;

not mean ~e have_a lot to say about that, but we know what it

11Jill be.~ a.nd if I a.mr1..ir·ong then I d.rnt;.Jro·ng, tri.:t I a.m quite

sure that I am quite accurate about what the court will· tell

you in these areas.

The cour·t 11..iill tell },.c,u, I beliei.,ie, .3.nd thi·=.. i-::. the

1 atJ,1 to prc•~Je 1 i bel, Hunt rnust prc11..Je actual m-?.l ice. t'·lov.;, 1,0.Je

are· not talking about actual rnal ice by Mr. M~~chetti. Mr· ..

t.,1a.rchetti is, in fact,_ a. freelance, independent .;_gent. Th"· t

i~. 1A1hat the cornp1.£f.int sa.;:..~s ancl this is, in f-~ct, what t1r.

Snyder ~old you on the opening today,_ and I will quote, this

is according to Mr. Snyder, addressing you on his opening

statement way back last week, page 20, Liberty Lobby's people

did not wri~e the article. It was written by a freelance

•;Jr i ter named 1) i c tor Marchetti.

Does that tell you a lot about Mr. Marchetti when

they get here? So that is the concession and that is Mr.

t'l-3.rchett i is a -freelance 1.-•Jr-i ter. We are not talking about

what was ln his mind •.

I
• In my view the a~ticle was true and i t has been
2
ccrnfir·rrred, the 1:-~ntrar pc•rtions have been confir·me1j, the
3
prediction cannot be conf1rme~. That is an opinion, those
.~:
4
thin1;is. that 2.r·e a.lleged tci tie f.3.cts V.Jer·e, in fa.ct, f.3.ct.
5
I thinK we can show.that quite clearly, but that is
6
the f.3:.ct, nc11,..J~ r,\Je ar-e de2.l i ng v.Ji th the l 2..1...:.r, and yc•u must
7
a:.pply to the facts to protJe 1 ibel, }'OU rnust pro~)e that actual
8
~al ice was present and he must prove ~hat w1th clear a~d

9
convincing evidence, that· is ~vidence producing from,·
10
believable tonviction in your minds that there was actual
11
rna 1 ice a. t Li ber· t::.· Lobb/', not b/' t1r·. t°'1arche t ti b~,,. Li be rt/'
12

13
Then the court I think JJJill define a.ctual rnalice fcir
14
you, because there is a term of art. It does not mean actual
15
ma. l i c e . It rnea.n·:; s.1:ime th i n1;i el ~-e, a.nd the cour· t 1,..; i 11 te 11
16
/'•JU t.·Jha.t it rnea.ns, a. term used by the ccifJrt, and al 1 that
17

18
statements were false or had a reckless disregard fbr the
19
truth and a reckless disregard for the truth is defined by
20
saying that the publisher in this case, Mr. Carta and Mr:
21
Tuc~er~ both of whom were deposed, had a high degree of
22
awareness that the statements were probably false. If /'ou do
23

24
I am not talking about Mr. Marchetti. I am talking
25
<'.bout ·the publisher, i f you do not find Mr. Carto and Tucker
 77

kne11.J thi? ..::.tcir·>' 1,1._1.;.s fal ·.=.e, ·'f i rs.t /'c11J h2. 1Je to find i t 2.s f-?.1 s.e,
2
tiut 1;i.etting thr·c1u-1;ih .3.l-'l th.a.t, then 1;...1e get tc1 the put11 i-::.her,

3
that they knew i t was false of that they had a high degree of
4
awareness that the statement was probably false.
5
Did they have a right to rely upon Mr. Marchetti?
6
That ls the first question~ Could they say the piece by Mr.
7
M3.rchetti, I do not think it is false?
8
Mr. Golz, who was a distinguished inves_t~gatlve-_

9
journalist~ 1;.Jc1rkin1;i for ~hirteen yeaes for the D·.?..1 las i...1crrning
10
r--iei..~;s ·;;.a i ,j th-3. t he ccin·~- i de red i·'1r. 1"1arche t ti ··tc1 be a ...i our·n.=i. l i s.t

11
of hlgh integrity and for truthfulness, and I think he would
12
rely upon him as a source.
13
We have the statement throughout the deposition by
14
t"'lr·. C:a.rto a.nd t'·1r·. Tuckef-· th.3.t they re.lied upcrn t"1r. ty1~.rchetti
15
and the reasons that they dld, who was Mr. Marchetti? Those
16
words were spoken about him in this courtroom. Mr. Marchetti
17
is a m~n who was a GS 15, one of the high ranks in the
18
Centr2.l Intel 1 i gence Station 1;.Jho 1 eft a.nd J..~Jho established a..
19
reputation not as a go for in the organization, that was not
20
the kind of inf6rmation Mr. Marchetti was privy to, because
21
he was not a go for.
22 They said we should rely upon Mr. Helms for his
23
as·3ertion about t'lr. t. . 1.3.rchetti~ J;Jho he d.oe-s not liKe, because
24
Mr. M-0<rchetti is telling the secrets that Mr. Helms is s t i l l
25
k:eep i n1;i.
\
• Mr. Helms goes t6 great lengths to Keep the secret.
2
He cornrni t·:. per-_jur:-->, tiefOre the United States Senate tc• keep
3 i
the secrets, and that is why he entered a plea of nolo
4
contendre, which is a conviction and he was sentenced for
5
failing t'o tell the truth to the United Sta.tes Senate.
6
If you think you have a better chance of getting the
7
f.3.cts fro·m him l,tJhen he is not here during the rjepcrsition th.3..n
8
the United States -Senate did,.maybe you do, but we know he.
9
does not l·ike -Mr. Mar·chetti, sci h~ said those asser·tions
10

11
in this area for a number of reasons.
12
What did Mr. Carto and Mr. Tucker know about Mr.
13
t'1ar ch et t i , th -3. t he h .:t. ·3" 1 e c tu red a. t ever·}' ma.J cir u n i 1
.) er s i t )'',
14
Just about, with the e~ception of down here and pointed out
15
the Yale Pol itlcal Union, debates, colleges, every major
16
radio .3.fpj t.v. shcrr;J, -3.ll .3.·5 an expert on Intelligence
17
C1rg-=:\n i z.a.t ions.
18
He test.ified twlce in major trials.· You heard that
19
frorr1 cine of their 1J.Ji tnesses, l"1r. t. .1archetti did, .3.s 2.n expert
20
qualified by the United States District Cburt as an expe~t ln
21
the a.re a. cif In te 11 i gence. If i t wis good enough for the
22
judge i t should be good enough for Mr. Carte and Mr. TucKe0.
23
For books, the CIA took out portions of the books:
24
it was not an attempt to tell a secret. He gave that
25

, ..•_
 '' 12.terid.l._ tc1 them a.nd ·::.a.i·j~~t\Jha.t r..\lill y·ou do? ~·.Jha.t do you

2 ,tJan t·?

3 He ·said, I think you are talkino too much and they

,,< ' -
4 ~ent to court and the Judge made the decision what should be

6 Philathea was a CIA officer. So what happened to

7 Eur·ope and putrl is.hed his tiocik in Europe, but the}' do not h2.ve

B United States judges that can stop your book from being
\
9 published.

10 He tir·ought it tiac~~ and sa.i d .:i.nd h.~.d i t putrl i sheci here

11 becau·:;e i t ha.d been ·printed in Engla.n j 1 -3.nd in En1;i:la.nd and in

12 other- countr· i es. a-=- v.Je1 l ~ th.3.t i ·;:. hc•r..t.! he got arcrunc:i it.

13 Mr. Marchetti did not do that. He 1,.._1a·.;; not in

,.
" 14 vJa.rf-3.r·e. He was in court, to say the court !s warfare is to

15 rriis.under·st3.nd thi·;:. de~Jelcrpmeni: in ci ..Jiliza.tic1n.

1
This is not

16 r..\12.r·f-3.re.

17 Warfar~ is the old days when people were feuding,

18 they woul ,j hat,ie duels -3.nd shoot each other.

19 We have now moved on to a much more civilized fashion

20 and 1,\Je go to ccrurt to re·3c1l t;e these problems. That is not

21 llJ.a.rfare._ That is wha.t we ar_e doing here right nctJ,\J. I think

22 in a relati ,1el:>-' 1,•Jarm .:i.n•j prciper

1 rJ.Ja:>-~ as was done i;.Jith f"1r.

23 Marchetti, ·3.nd the CIA, and the United States Di-=-tr·ict Court

24 in J,.J.:r.shington, D.C. a.nd 1~1hatever the deci·::.ion i,uas, right or

25

'·
 80

wronQ~.- Mr.
... Marchetti abided.by
. i t and he was concerned about
,/

3 .! do not think the United

I

4 States Government has any right on the censorshfp of books. I

5 do not thin>'. i t will happen ag.;.in. It won't happen again

6 because when that one per£on walked down that lonely path· and

7 cc1nfr·ontecl i t , the Arnerican C:i 1.;il Liber·ties Union ctn1j rna.n)-'

8 other group-3 a.re concerned .3.bout it~ and I think i t rna:Y not

9 ha.ppen 2.1;-ia.in.

10 Somebody had to pay the price and Mr. Marchetti did.

11 The e·.;:.sential question; I think her·e l·3 not v~ihether

l2 or not actual malice could be proven because obviously i t

13 cannot on behalf of Trento and Carta~ on behalf, perhaps you

14 r·ernerntier·~ I cc1ul1j r·eac:i pc•rtion·=- of i t to /'ou, trut I thin~~ I

;Jc1n_,,t bcither~ of their te::.tirnc1n~,.., 1,...ie relied upon f''1r.

15

16 1archetti. He i-=:. a. rnan of ability, of r·eputat ion 1 t~Je re1 ied

17 upon him.

18 The ·s.taterne.nt by f'1r·~ C'..3'.rto} the -;..;.rne effect, the fact

19 that Mr. Marchetti published a book and the CIA said take

20 these portions out, meaning Mr. Marchetti described acce~s to

21 lmporta~t infor~ation, and they said take i t out, so he left

22 it out.

23 They do not take out fiction .. They take out fact,

24 and the;; took out importa.nt facts.

25
 81

I~thinK~
·' . maybe Marchetti used the

2 ;..Jc1rd r·urnor·s in hi·=· note·:;. I do not remember. Ma>'be he did·.

3 hat is how reporters functionL Colson gave him the lead. He

I

5 V~lhen y·ou -;:.ta.nd up in court and someboij)-' re 1 i ed upo·n

7 question, Mr. Colson, Mr~ Colson gave it i t to Mr. Trento.

s Mr. Trento he ·gave i t to Mortu (phonetic). And Mra Trento

10 th-~n the piece in the f:pcit light~ rnuch rnore · po1,\ferfu 1, because

11 i t had the narnes Ha.mi 1 tern 2.nd Helrn=:. and tv1r. Hunt tol ci )-'OU tha.t

12 v1as rea-.11;..' up·::.etting. That is when he decided to go to the

13 House Select Ccirrirni tte beca.u·5.? the n.3.me-::. Helm-::. .a-.nd Angel ton r,1Ja·:;

15 docurnent.

16 There ls an interesting statement that Mr. Hunt made.

17 He sa.id 1..~1hen he•heard about this my only possible conclusion

18 was that this document was a spurious document.

19 !,.Jell, if that v..Ja.s hi·;. conclusic1n, why c.an i t ncit be

20 Mr. Tucker's and Mr. Carto's conclusion? Rely upon a

21 ·;.tatement made by Mr. Marchetti, but the remark.3.bl e thing was

22 r,\Jhen t.<Je ,je-po£.ecf t1r·. Trento a.nd he was reluctant to gi lJe us the

23 sources fcir this, ther·e is an old .:i..ddage tha.t the 1 ai,<J does

24 f o 1 1 c11,..; , a 1 t.\Ja)'£. ap p 1 i es that you ou 1;ih t to th i n k abc1u t i t .

..
' 25

...,._·
 82

~ever
.
asK a questfon to which
, you do not know the answer. I

2
violate that and take risks once in awhile.

3
do not want to do i t .
Mr. Trento there, I I do not
!
4
want to ask him d1d you ever see the memorandum?

5
cowardly about that, I must confess, because it is building

6 the case, that was not necessary for the case at all because

7
the la.1,1.J in terms. of actual m-3.l ice, t"1r. Sn)"'der, thc1ugh, he r...vent

8 right intc1 it.

He said have you ever seen, heard the de~9sition,

9

10
this memorandum a~d Trento said yes, and I wished you had been

ther·e tc• s.ee the r·eact ion crf C:ciuns.el and e 1.,1er;-·bod/'. Al say<".
11

12

This is basically the same central fact in an article

13

~hich is basically opinion.

14

It has to be opinion because it is a prediction, Just

15

as Mr. Snyder's prediction is what they wiJl write several

16

years from now ~bout Mr. Hunt. I t i·::. a pr..edict·ion~

17

'(ou cannc1t sue -::.crmebod}' for .3. prediction bec.~.use it

18

19
1s basically opinion. It i ·=. not on l y an op i n i on , it i ·~.

20 opinion not only about what has happened,_but it is an opfnion

21 about what will happen.

Perhap·:.. the court t.~1ill tell you this alsc1 abcrut

22

23 opinion it is not libelous, cannot base i t , and only

24 allegations of facts, those are a11egatiorys, this is a fact

25 could be libelous.
 83

. Mr. Marchetti's opi~lon

.. about the future, cannot be

2 ibelou·;; tiecause t.beY h~ 1.,ie pr·edictions a.nd pr·edi·ctions are -3..11

3 opinions ancl fact·;;, the:;.' are v..ie 3.pons, i t does nots~.:,.... th-3.t, so
1
4 in rn>' 1Jie1,..J the el,iiijence shovJs- this: he -::.aid In the future 1;.Jh-2.t

5 1.Jil1 ha.ppen, th-=-.t there 1,...Jer·e ·;;ome elements in the a.rticle

6 ~hich were based upon fact and let us talk ~bout those.

7 The central one was the memorandum which Mr.

s .,1a.rchetti ha.s. ne 1.,1er =-een, tiut 1,0.Jhich he hear·d and he heard fr·cirr1
!
9 a re 1 i able so-urce anij chec~~ed 1.;ar· i ous things out a.nd ·c·-3.me to

10 the conclusion ba.sei::i upcin his exper·ti-=:.e a.s .3..n inter·lJier,\Jer~ the

11 House Select Ccirnmittee on A-::.sa.-::.sinatii:)ns~ they ne~;er saicf he

12 said Judging fr·orr1 the dernea.nc•r· the 1/.J.3.}-' they· a.skec:J the

13 questions., the V.Ja.}' the;.' .3.re intere·=-ted in r;,that he kne1..v a.b1::iut

15 You do not want to stop that. You do not want to

16 stop th.3.t rnethcid. Tha.t i ·::. hc11,•.J Water·gate 1;..1as t1r·c1ken} trecau~.e .3.

17 coup1 e c1f gu>'s 1,...f':irked Just th.3.t 1. . .J-3.}'.

18

19 the vJashington Post.

20 You do_ not t0.0<nt to stop that method. There is 1 i ttle

21 en.ough investigative .journa1 i·=-m in America toda/'. You do not

22 want to st2mp i t out by te11 ing r·epcirters they cannot u=:.e this

23 f'.ind of technique.

24

25

'·'·
 84

The article is bas~cally opfnion. The one centr·al

•
2 fact is the existence of the memorandum. Mr. Marchetti never

3 sa.t..\! i t , t11J t i t ex i st s. It does exist.

I

4 Mr. Hunt thought i t existed when he said the only

5 P?ssible conclusion is i t is spurious. Mr. Tren~o saw i t . He

6 saw the initials and the signature of Angel ton and Helms and

7 sald i t looked to him to be authentic.

8 Mr. Colson was brought in here as a Plaintiff/s

9 ~itness, but Mr. Colson said, as you heard in the deposition,

10 he considers.Trento to be an accurate, honorable, truthful

ll ,\Jriter. Tha.t i·:; v.Jh>/ Penthouse put1lis.hed them. That is vJh)"' he

12 r·ecornmends. th-~.t Penthous.e publish thern and Tr·ento s1,\Jc1re to you

13 he saw that memorandum, and that is the end of the fact

14 question and in terms of the central question of this article,

15 noi;.J~ if it is hot nei,...J·=-, I think the cour·t rr12.>' tell you then

18 It Is the law protecting dally and weekly

19 publications it is not 1,...;riter·:; of books. VJell, this t.\Jas sor·t

20

21 There i-::. a que·3tic1n about hcrt.\J hot i t t.\Jas.

22 i"'1archetti in•jicate,j he felt he was in a race with the

23 ou::.e '.3elect c:ommitteE< on Assassinations, once the stor::'.

24 reaks i t is too late to predict i t , if i t happened or not,

25 /OU cannot pr-edict i t anymore.

 *It turns out i t w~s a race of which they were, Mr.

2 r· en to~ .;r. f evJ c:1a/'_~ ~ be ·~;i.u se f"'lr: Cci 1 son h .3.d .?. coup l e of

3 courses, a couple of people that he was giving the documents

I

4 out to.

5 If it is consid~red by you not to be hot news then

6 the publisher ha.·:. to 1 ocJk into i t ·:=:omevJh2.t, and st i 11 these

7 u 1 es ap p 1 )-', cip i n i cin i ·;:. n c' t 1 i be 1 crrJ s . It has to be actual

- \
9 -3.S-i·s. fcrr i t V.nc11,..t.1irPd i t VJas fa.lse or likel:r' fal-;.e. Then v.Je

10 have the question of what ls the duty to investigate? How do

12 the countr~,1· as a.n exper·t in the area. cif Arner· i c~n Ini:el 1 i gence,

13 ,-,ood
·~
contact-::.
_ ::._t_
._, t_h.::.._ i-_:.=._rit_r·.::._1
.., Irit-11·1--r--
-'=' '~'=' 1•-'='
A--ricy -3.n d '11e
Hl:d'=' ·:;.;r.}'·:; I

14 have these contacts. He cannot really check i t out. '{ou_ .

16 not there. And Mr. Snyder may say the telephone book was a

18 of the bc·ol<, but rv1r· .. Hunt IJ.Jas l;.Jrong.

19 He told in· his first affidavit the name of one Wa

20 Ling (1=1honet i c) and later- he cha.nged it to a different one~

21 be-for·e he changed it to a. di ff er· en t one.

22

23 also said he had witnesses. Where are they? In terrns. of the

24 material, in terrns of the material that i,tJas given to f"lr.

25 Marchetti, the infor-mation given to him by the CIA personnel

 n'
·::>b

/"
that is Ihe only way he ca~·checK it. He tells you it is oKay
'·
2
and )"'OU ha.tJe ti:i·r·~_l>-' up_::rn hirn or· }'ciu cio n•:it rel}' upon hirn.

3 1r. tv1archetti is a reliable per:-sc•n~ .r,\Jr·itten articles, netJer·

' . .

'" he
4 been sued for any action, ever·, about anyt~lng eve~ said

5 about the CIA, tried to stop him from saying things becaDse he

6 ,tJa-=:. tellin•;i.the truth.

7 He is a

8 per-=:.on t:Jho cou 1 d be rel i ed upon~

9 Th.is is a lawsuit designed to stop investigative

10 journ-3.1 ism in the a.r·e of -3.ctions :if the Centr·a1

1 Intel 1 i9ence

gene)-' a.n.j, in fa.ct, -.=.ur·r·ounding the ,jea.th of Pre-=:.ident

12 f<enned/', th.:.:r.t is ,,.Jh-3.t this 1-:s.1. .Jsuit i·s for.

13 No one wlll ever again say this is my prediction and

.·
i.
14 I h-3.Ve seen it in ar·eas. a 1 r·ead>' in th i -=· ccrun tr;.'.

15 No one will dare to probe these matters and we will

16 be stuck 1,tJith the official cornmission repoct and •:iur doubt·s

17 about them. i7

18 !Jn1e·;;-=:. reporter-=- ar·e allowed to 91? C)Ut a.nd ask

19 questions and publishers are al lm0ed to re.ly upon reliable

20 e-=-tabl ished pec ple in their 1 -3.re~. to putil ish rnateria1, it. i-=-
-·
21 interesting that the strongest things said about Mr. Hunt, he

,,,. 22 d[d not file any lawsuit for this, and the publishers can look

23 back and sa/ these are terrrible things said about Mr. Hunt a

24 thousand times beyond anything fn the Spo~!ight and a book

.-~.
., . 25 that was seen and reviewed around the country, they got to

-·
·'": . -~·~
\ -· court a.n..d f'1r·. Hunt drops ttJe case. Tha.t vJ.=i..s fv1r·. F~ubin/s

2 f .au 1 t?

3 Mr. Hunt had problems;with lawyers.

4 he has a lot of bad luck, apparently. The case was dismissed

5 on the date c1f tr i a. 1 after· a 11 the rnone-:·/ anci a 1 l the 1,ijc1r·k, .?-nc;

6 all the deposition-::. i..•Jer·e t1rou1;iht .=i..bout to bring the c.3:.se to

7 cour·t r·i 1~ht her-e, then he drops the case.

8 1,Jh.a.t ,_,_,; 11 .a publisher th i nl<? V.Jh2.t ,_ ,,; 11 anybod;.' else

9 t-h·i nl<? t~Jh/' dc1 e·3 h_e not gti fc1r1}.J.3.r.d vJi th the ca-:.e·?"

10 I think one could think about that after the article

11 /-J.3.s pub1 ished a·;:. 1,9el 1 a.·=. a.n indic.3.tion th.=-.t t"'1r. Hunt J..•.;i::ru1d not

12 conte~.t these ver>', l)er;r' -=:.erious cha.r·gE,.3.

13 Mr. Marchetti has made some very substantial

14. -::.acrifice=·~ gcrt fi 1.,ie hundre•:i dcillar=-; ha.r·dl/' 1_1.,1orth it, l:::reing

15 c.=-.11 ed .3. IJJretched 1 i t t l e rna.n bec.:i.u-::.e he h.3.d the cour.3.ge -l:o

16 t.3.l<e a positicrn different from the one taken b~-' the rest of

17 the Intel1i·~enc2 Cir·gani:zatic1ns.

18 Now, let us take a look at some of -!:he things that

19 Mr. Hunt on the other hand has done and some things that have

20 been publ i ·:.hed about Mr·. Hunt.

21 The falsification of the cables is a part of the

22 character ass.3.ssin.3.tion of John F. Kenned>', the pla.nning. It

23 was not three guys in a bar having a 1 ittle tal·K. I t 1,.•.Jas an

24 oi...•er t -3.c t.

25
 88

/~ -·.··

~
Hunt and Liddy oot.tooether
- - and talked about
/.

2 something to Mr. Anderson, Jack Anderson.

3 Then he found out who ~Dunn was, the expertise and

4 they br·ought hirri into a rneeting, .:;.nd I bel ie .,1e that seccind 1

5 eeting had an overt act, and they could h·ave been charged

6 J.Ji th ccrns:.pir·acy tci ccirrlfnit rnurder r·ight then t.tJithcrrJt gc1in1;J one

7 step further.

8 That is written off as just three guys hanging around

9 the bar, whose salaries we are paying, working out of the

10 ~hite House, not .Just three guys hanging aroun~ a bar. That

11 is some of the indication of Mr. Hunt"s acti1Ji·ties during this

12 period, and I think when you contrast that sharply with Mr.

13 1archetti's long record of expertise of accuracy upon which

14 1r. Tucker and Mr. Carto hatj ~he absolute rlght to rely on and

15 take a.wa;; that r i 9h t to re 1 / upon Mr. Marchetti·· s ab i 1 i t:Y, arrd

16

17 aqain, that is Johe errd of Mr. Marchetti if,, the.re is .3. judgment

18 fc1r- the Plaintiff in this c.=i.se.

19 Now, we have heard in talking about Mr. Hunt"s

20 credibility because Mr. Hunt has another side to t e 1 1 } 1~e.

21 talked about that. Mr. Srr;;der talked about this i t t l e period

22 in his 1if e• Why talk about Watergate? He said Mr. Snyder

23 said why do we talk about Watergate? Because Mr. Hunt

.j
24 committed per._iur-;-.. ~ t irne after time after t_irne-,. taking the same-

25 ath, there to tell the truth, the 1;Jhole t_ryth, and nothin9
 89 .

but the truth, that he took.in this courtroom before he came

•
2 her-e to ta.l l< tcr >'C1U.

3 That is why we talk about

I
Wateroate.
-
That does not

4 1ean people can never be born again, but you have to give

5 consideration to the fact that this man is a perjurer. He is

6. a con 1...rict. He has never been prosecuted for that perjury. He

7 ha.s never been pr·cisecute,j fc•r- the b1ac~~rnai1. He has never·

s been prosecuted for the ·crimes. We Know about the discussions

10 Know about the forgery of the Diem operation. I t 11Jas not

"I 11 about the Lr.Jar· in l/i'etna.rn ·3.-=· i''1r. :.=:nyder said.

!
12 Mr. Hunt forged cables to say John F. Kennedy

14 his l itt1e typewriter and his_photostat machine and his razor

15 blade.

16 That was one of the worst acts of character

17 3.ssassinatio·n o,;. an Arnerica.n president, and tha.t is l...•Jhat he

18 did~ t,oJhile 1,\Je paicl hi-=:. -=:.ala.ry .3.nd he T;Jor~~ed ciut c•f the White

19 House. That is J...tJh:::r.t he ijid and no!JJ he carries here and says~ 11
I

20 h.3.l)e refor·meij. 11

21 Well, maybe he has. I think the record in this case

22 shovJs he h ..=..-:;. not. He 1 ied to you about why his books were not

23 being published r·ight here, ncit .just fcrr- a fe1,..; rr1crnths, ten

24 /'e o.r s .3.go.

25
 ""' He 1 i ed tc1 yc1u about hi·=· i nco.me tax and 1,\;e t;J i 11 g•:r

2 through each cif t_ti_ci·:;e. !;.Je v..ri11 gc1 thrctugh that r·ight nor;J.

3 On the left is the yetr 1977. The next column over

4 is 11.;hat he te-=.tifieci tci a.nd the next colurnn 0 1...ier is 1,.\Jhat the

5 return sho1;Jed.

6 He ·;:.aicf in 15'77 befc1re the ar·tic1e 1/Jcv:; publ is.f1>?d he

7
testified he brou9ht 2. little piece of yellot<J paper with him,

8 he did reserve on· this one and he sat there reading from it
I
"
9 when he testified to tell you he ls. trying to tell you he lost

1Q a lot crf mcine}' becaus.e c1f the :3pot1 ight .?.rticle.

11
He rn-3.de mcine}' v.Jhen he got ciut of jai 1 ~ i ke .e. 1 1 of
. ·'
l2 thcrse con 1._.1 i ct·::. did~ .Jcrhn Dea.n gcit -3. r.;..•j i Cr shoi,1..1.

13 Li c:ld:;-' ~ nurntrer one 1 ec turer, he i ·;; o·n the ccll l eg12 ca.mpu·;;. tod.a;.',

14 and has for a year or two.

Ther·e is -3.. carnpa. i gn de( ncrt bU)-' boo~~ -fr· om cr·crcrks.

15

,, •. l
•'.'.
' ! 17

18 Gi::irdcrn Li·jd~r' cir E. Ho1;..1a.rd Hunt or Ad.olf Hitler, the>' come

19 ba.ck, tha.t is their· ri1;;iht, let them hear r,i.Jhatever· they l.i.Jant

20 and let people make money. That is the kind of system we are

21 suppo·;;ed tc1 hat;e, and he rna.de rnone~...-,. The:n· he got out of jai 1

22 in 1979, and nc1w, the next ~·'ear, and he told you he did not

23 tell ycru hc11,~J he gcrt. th-~t, but that is hov.J he hor,\J he got it,

.. 24 lecturing because i t T;Ja·:; hc)t a He got out of prison.

25
 .Mr. Snyder is Jeal.ous that Mr. Liddy is making more

3 anymore and his l~come went down.

4 Hi::- r·c1U1~h1>' told us the tr·uth -3.bciut that~ if an

5 a-.rticle comes out in the end, it 1;..12.s the la.·3t tv~10, three a.nd a.

6 half rncrnths. crf 1'7'78, and i t det-21.il-::. it, it take·;; a little

7 ~hile for you to have an effect, you will not have a contract,

s the bcrok 1;.Jc1n·'t tie put,1ished, ·;.o he told us. in 1·;;i:::!O until nor;.;,

9 ;..1e see the effect c,f the Spcitl ight 2.r·ticle.

10 I t•Ji 11 bet there is. no·t cine of ~/ou on the .Jur/' ~;ho

8I 11 et)er he-3.rd of the Spotlight articfe until this. C-3.s.e began; but

12 >'OU he.3.rd a lcrt of t'1r. Hunt.

13 Think about that when you decide what the damages

14 .::i.r·e, J..r.Jh2.t the pr.. oblern is here, in 1·;;-30 i·3 his te·stirnon/' vJ.a.s

15 his inccrrr1e !/J.3.S· ·$17,5:3::::.oo. His. i n c c(rne IAl.3.·3

16 more than twice that, but we have the income tax returns and

17 that is ncit thi·~ l i t t l 2 period cif time ten ye.?.r·s .?.go.

18 He 1 i e,j to you Cin that st.3.nd so }'OU 1;.)oUl ,j feel si:Jrr/'

19 fcrr- him 2.ncl s.3:>' he h.;i.d a 1 ot o·f rncine/' befor·e c..nd ncrr,tJ he h-~v3

20 not. He changed the stand that he said. He certainly did.

21 In terms c1f hciw he determined1,~.1h.3.t to tell you abciut

22 incorne or ear-nini;;is, 1'7'81, he told you his income was

23 $7,000.00, hi-:. t.;i.x retur·n sho1.,•..1ecl $28,442, ti/' the s.2.rne

24 standa.rd, he told us in 1977, and in 1982, nq1.,~1, it is just

25
I

ot.Jer $.~.,ooo, but it tJJ.~.s rea1l:'/ a.lmost $;"::C.,OOO~ on1;.-~ lied to

•
2

3 At that tirne, t;.Jhich i·~ not b&.•j, the tJater-g.~te jur->~

'
4 did not do th-"<t "''el 1 ;;_t al 1.

5 to '$-7,700~ but i t is

6 really $30,968.

7 1984, $5,000. We do not have his returns now, if

a that is r·ight, I t.Nould be •...•e-r:;~ -:::.urprisi?d, returns of the

9 pattern we see.

10 He lied to /~ou. He ca.n t.3.~~e the s2.rrre oath he to·ok

11 befcir·e the- l,1.J.?.tergate 13r·.:.-.nd .Jur>~ a.r11j he ·;:.hor,o.Jed you the same

12 ccintempt tha.t he -:::.hc11/.Jed tha.t (3r-a.nc:! .Jur·~·,,.. He has done i t all

13 his 1 ife. Th.::i.t is J..~Jhat I said in the be ;i-inning of1 the ca.se.
/ ...
I
·.. ··
14 hat. is the tragedy, he has done i t all his l lfe and in doing

15 that he has done ~ lot of things to us. To br.i ng ,;_ 1 «.wsu i t

17 I -3.m in 1.Jcr1ved i~ for ffi)' C)f.AJn recorij. I calcl it the· C:hu tzp-"<h,

18 Caper. Maybe someboday on the J~ry could. explain it. I

19 supposed the better thing VJoul d be Ult irn.e.te G-"<11. He has

20 taken a1,~;ay ciur r·ights tc' a. fr-ee election. He has conspi~~~

21 3.gainst·American citizens. He helped to destroy the

22 reputation o·-f [)aniel Ellst1er1;r, not b/' doing v~ihat t"1r. Marchetti

23 id, the article-, under his or,\Jn nameJ ancl saying that is rJJhat

24 I pre di ct . Th i s i s 1,..Jh at I Kn ci1,\J. This is •Nh at I th i n k . This

25 is mv opinion.
 . He writes i t , someone else publishes it.
'
It is. a CIA

3 reputation He represents left

4 ~ing causes and his daughter dld this.

s an·:;v.Jer on the 1,~Ji tne·:.s stand. He 1;Ja.s sti 11 doing it'. Gui l t b;.'

6 associa.ticin, in fr·ont cif CilJr e;.~e-=., and l.3.st t1a>-' hi·:::. v.iife had

7 some little Repub1ica.n c:1ub invited tcr speak. He is a priva.te

8 1an. He doe·:. not J..tJa.nt tci be involved in public affair·-=:.. He

9 is retired. The Soviet· Government has agents in the United

,,•
;=;
ll -~a.tion.s.l Council of· Churches is a grea.ter threa.t to the

12 survival of American than is Satan. That is what he said last

13 ··1a;.-.

14 The problem is he ls reformed. He h-~.-=- matured. He

l5 to 1 d you al 1 .=i.bcru t that .

16 not mean my cl lent, I mean us; the name of the senators who

17 worked for the ~oviet Union, forget it. The National Council

18 of 1=.-hurche-=:., the 1,Jor·ld Cc1uncil of c:hurches, rninisters

19 throu9hout the world, the 9r·eater threat than Satan.

20 If you do not believe in Satan lt does not mean ..

21 anything. I f you do bE-1 i e 1J;? in Sa.tan it is qu f te a-. st2.tement,

22 is i t not, to the -:.ur·vi\;al of Arr1er·ica?

23 He testified, Mr. Snyder put him up on the stand,

24 read 1,9j th apprc1val the F~oc~~efe11 er C:ommi ssi r:J-n Repc1rt and read

25 th i s con c 1 us i on and i t is i n e 'J i den c e .

r \''4

Mr. Snyder said it_ Everybody sa!d 1t. y·ou can take
•
2 i t tiacK v.Jith >;c1u, r·eaci the v.Jhc11e thin•;;i in the .jur·>; rciorr1 ff you

3 1;va.nt. Tha.t is not enour;ih. Read what Mr. Hunt, what this says
!
4 and he reads and he reads and ft says that the false statement

5 Nas made~ at one time Mr. Hunt was a Chief of Station in

6 Mexico City and he never was and he reads that and tells that

7 to you and that jc a 1 ie.

8 He testified to you in thls case in deposition, the

9 previous case that he was Chief of Station in Mexico City~ the

10 Rc;ckefe 1 1 er- Cornrrr i ·:;·=.ion Report, he ne 1Jer· 1;..1as. .3, t -~n>; ti rne chief

11

12 Now, where did he l le when he went to them? Did they

13 not have access to the records? He told us he was and his

14 1 2.1,<Jyer h~..-:; hi rn reacf the l i e her-e in the cour troorn. Mr·. Hunt

15 h2.s.not lied =·ince 1977. If that is true, he is the on1:r' one

16 in the wor-ld who has not. !;Je all tell thern on c1cc.3.·::.ic1n~

17 except Mr. Hunt. He l ie.ci to you about _hl~

18 income. He 1 i ecf to J'Cru -3..bo.u t e~;eryth i ng ,. but he l i e--£. under-

19 oa.th. l;Je lie to friends and ne i ght•c•rs and 1.••Ji 1.)es -a.nd husb2. nds

20 crn occa·::.icin, I .;i.rr1 afr-aid,_ but bi1;i 1 ie=· and l i t t l e 1 ies,

21 sometim~s we all have kind of a weakness in our nature that

22 leads us to do things that we should not do. 1,.Je a. 11 do ncit

23 1 le under oath time after time after time.

24 Why continue, you get your books published because of

25 th i s a r t i c 1 e i n Spot 1 i gh t. Where is the evidence?

 95

They h.3..lJe to prov~. i t be a preponderance of the

•
Where is any evidence about one moment of suffering

3 such frorri the three chi11jr·en vJho vJer·e his a.l ibi l.!Jitnesses, 1,\!ho
I

5 there, did scimebod>-' come frc1m a. country club and sa/' I sa.1. . J

7
He had Mr. Dunham on the stand. He knevJ hi rn for

Where was his c·haracter

9 witness, a charge you would hear, you would h~ar thi.s cha~ged,

10 IJ.Je do no·t ha. 1.Je th i ·::. Kind of rn-3. t ter-' to de.3.1 1,~J i th in an cir·,j i na.r·;.'

11 C-3.Se.

12 You may hear the court say testimony of a character

13 ,•Ji tness a.lc•ne e 1Jen in a. crirnina.1 ca-.::.e~ the man i~. cha.rged .ri th
1,.•

\. 14 iur·der, a frien1j· cc•rr1e·:::., I h&.ve 1-~ncrt.•..fn hirn fc1r thir-t;.' }'e.3.r·=·~ hi~.

15 reputa.tion fc:ir pe2.cefulnes.-=-~ is mar·ve1ous in the comrnuni t~-" a.nd

16 in th-3.t ca.-=.e a ._iudge vJi 11 s.3./' tc1 the ._iur;.' the te-=-t irrrony of a_

17 single ch3.r..3.cte-r 1.Mitness alcine rriay cause reasona.ble doutit in a

18 crirnin.3.1 ca.:::.e.

19 The woman testified she knew him for many, many

21 truthfulness? Mr-. t"Vl a.n knet•J hi rn for a long ti me. That r,vas

1,<Je hear-,j. He has known him a long

23 ti me. He never said a Kind word about him.

24 Mr. Helms was his boss, never said a kind word about

25 him.

/·.

'· ·-
 '7'6

..
f"lr. CJ1Jnh2.rn fr·crrr1 th£:
.<
FBI,
•
ncit one per··;.on ca-.rne in tc1

thi-=- ccrurtrcrcim a.nd sa-.ii:l E. Ho1~\t.3.r·d Hunt has ·suffer·ed bec.~.use of

2

3
th i s a.r· t i c 1e • E. Howard Hunt is a truthful man.

His lawyer says it~

'
but his lawyer is rrpt a witness.
4

5 I never heard of such a case. I never heard of a case where

6 there is no character witness and no evidence of any

7 suffering, no evidence of any financial loss, but we have

inccirne tax retur·ns abcrut 1,..;hich he 1 le-d -3.nd the;-~ coulci not get
8

this bciok pub~ ished tieca,use of the 2.rticle in Spotl ii;Jht, but
9
'
10 it tur·n-:::. out in 17'7? he 1;-tc1t a book putcl i ·::.hed, I arn s.c1rr), 1 '7'77

11 he could ncit get his t•ool< published; Chet Chicha.t testified

12 Hunt came with his book in 1977, we sent i t out to everybody.

13

14 e 1..Jer·yth i ng.

15 Scott Meredith, I know them, they are the best ones

l6 in the countr/', 1 iterar~-' agents and I thinK the>' real 1;>-' tried~
:-.
··t 17
"
··.
18 That is before the article, and ~is next booK~ the

19 fir·s.t six rnonth·:; eif 1'7'7t::~ the ar-tic1e 1,~Jas published in Aui;iu·::.t,

20 before tha.t the first six mcinths·--another book, no one- 1;.;i 1_1

.. ~
·21 publish it.

22 Then khe article comes out and then he gets a book

'.
23 published, and they do another one and that gets published.

24 I am rrcit saying that a.rticle- had any affect on therr1

25 at ;;.1 1 but t·1r . Cart o, in the deposition, .would say~ would

 ,-.7
7,

1ake ..::.ome 1;.J i se gu~·' r·erna.r~~ -2.nd sa.y I think he made during the
•
2 de po::. i t i c1n .~.nd shc1u l d not hal.>e rna.de, i f )'OU s.end us 2. ti i 1 1

3 tha.t is ncithinQ funn)'~ tiut if )'OU Sd.t:J a. denosition v.;hen a.

- I r

4 1-3J,1J)'er· is. t1.3_1:jgering )'Cru, there i·:::. no jud•;ie there} there is no

5 Jury there, you never really be] ieve anything you say with two

6 1 a.i..r..;y·er·s ther·e in a. r·c1c1rn 1;.Ji th a cciur·t r·epc•r·ter· 1,1Ji 11 el) er· get

7 before the j Ur)...

8 You never think that. That is what will happen,

9 although that is the purpose for i·t, you say things that you

10 =:.hi:.ruld ncit -:=.a)' and yciu ·::.hould not s.=.(/ that and I apcrlogize crn

11 his beha.lf fc1r m-3.king that -.::.ta.ternent. And I a.m not ·;;aying

12 befor·e the article 1,\1.3_·;; putil ished th.3.t t•ecause the .ar·ticle l.A.1a·;;

13 pub1 i ·;;hed~ ti,..;o bcu::iks got put1 1 i ·;:.hed~ I a.m not -=-~-Ying it is a11

14 .3. coincidence.

15

16 1;.Jith his lecturing, i t no l/.Ja}' inter·fered 1,~Jith hi-::. book being

17 publ ishe-d and i-':: in no J..\ld..}' inter·ferec1 v.,iith a filrn beir11;i made,

18 a stor·;:.' 1,tJi th the ta1,1..1dry char2.cters and I a.sked his l i ter2.r/'

19 agent 1j id .3..nY putil i sher· e•Je-r ·;;.a;,... c•r vJr i te or- imp 1 y an:r'th i ng

20 th~.t the article in the Spc tlight 1 or 2.n;·' alleg-3.tic•n abciut_ the

21 Kenned/' ass.as-=:.ination pla>'" an)' par·t in hi·;; boc•k t•eing

23 The 2.ns1,tJer 1;.Jas. no.

24 If he v.1as indicted for ~~i11ing Pr·esident Kennedy, he

25 would go on a lectur·e tour now and get a dozen books published

 a..nd i t i ...;=· unfor·tunate tha.t.{~:=. the t.r,.L3.)' i t h2.ppens.

outr2.geou-::. the ch_~rge the rncire crne i·.=. a.t1 le to c.3..pitalize on

2

3 i t.

4 So i t is absurd, certainly in this case it is absurd

5 to say he lost one penny because of !t and was one friend

6 upset? Did he come.here or she come here?

7 Did t.\1e hear frorr1 one perscin t.\tho t.\12.s ever in an>' t.•.Ja/'

8 affected by this article?

I
. I

9 t~-Jc1 1.,i ernbe r 1 5'63' r;.J e .;i-. 1 1 knew where we were. kle ·" 1 1

10 Know where we all were and we remember, could not ge~ ~n

11 2.dequ2.te 1,•.Ji tne-s·.::. other· than -3. C:IA ernpli::i)'ee or· fDrrner CIA

l2 employee and the only witness he had~ the first one, Mr.

13 t<u zmaK, in f.3.ct, v..r2.s. h.3.r-ij]>.· 2.n .:i.libi r,1;itne·::.s in th.;.t his

14 testirncin/~ l/.Jas s.C) ijifferent fr-orn l.J.,1h2.t it is, r·.-1r£ Hunt ha.d Sa.id

15 a.bout the s2.rne event.

16 Now, we get to the blackmail char-g~ which he said

17 th2.t is fa-.1se -?.rid m2.l ici1:1us to s2.y th·a.t.

18 The Washington Post said that on the front page he

19 did not sue them. He did not ask for retraction. He did not

20 ask for a letter and i t i ..::. tr·ue. ·~(ou heard thE< co.mrnents ....

21 his is the information in the United States against Mitchell

22 This is the testimony. This is what Mr. Hunt was

23 saying to the White House, the Watergate bugging is only one

24 of a number of highly illegal conspiracies ~ngaged in one or

25 ore defendant at the behest of senior White House officials.

 9'7'

He h.='.s Y,..et undisclo~.ed crir:r1-es tc1 be prove 1j .=tnd I VJant money

2 a.nd he said it 1,~J-~§ for· s.i1ence. It is. bl .:i.c~~ma. i l .

3 He has not been prose~uted and never will be

4 probably, but it is blackmail. I f you did i t or I did i t we

5 ~ould be in jail and not at some Air Force base. VJ e l,•.J CdJ 1d tn?

6in.Jail

7 He became a witness for the government, Mr. Snyder

8 says he met him and got reformed overnight. Three people.: had
\
9 already t~rned and ~ere tes.tifying for the government, and he

10 Nas the fourth 1 and the White House was not paying him the

11 rnone}'.

12 I

13 -3.m sure he did. I am sure it weighed on his mind and

14 everybody ~ho was in a situatlon 1 ike that~ charged. with a

15 crirne, h.3_·~ a. {crt of problerns., but the::.-~ do not all corr1rr1it

17 United St2.tes 2.tid threaten him ,,._,j th bl .;.ckm2.i 1,

18 He did n cct get the meine;,I'. He did not want to get

19 ca.ught. He i;..;an te d tc1 1jD wh-0< t De.3.n did and he did i t .3:.n d hoi,v

20 he did i t' tr1 i nl< of hO!AI he did i t .

21 Poor Bernard Barker from the c:uba.n comrnun i ty here.

22 He is .3.nother· gu>-~ not ex.:r.ctl y to my ta~.te. I hope I do not

23 ever 1i i;..1e in a. comrr1un it>~ r,\there he l i 1.,1es next door, but

24 nevertheless cornpar··e him to f"1r·. Hunt. Hunt goes to him. He

25 knows him, Barker, and they have a friendship and Mr. Hunt
 1 [I I)

Ber·n.?.r·d 8.?.r·ker and , ~e saYs

. there is a. Sol; i e- t
•
2 passing secrets to the Russians. We have to take action.

3 Mr. Barker thought this was a government action of

4 some kind since i t was working for the White House, for Mr.

5 Colson, I cannot tell you what it is.

6 "'(ou haue an assi gnrnent and the/' tr-avel al 1 the r..•.J.3.)-' tc1

7 Ca.1ifor-nia.r,•..ihere jv1r. Ba-.rker deres not knoi,\JVJhat it is..• a little

8 bit 1i ~~e .t. .1or i ta. Lcrr·enz IJ.Jho tr·.:r.t..'e11 eci all the 1;.J.3./' fr·orri f"1i -3.rni to
I
9 'allai and did not know what the operation was.

10 Hunt s.a)'S it is. tr·TJe, in the C-?.se c1f E:arker, he did

,..
" 11 1ot tell him, Just told him we have to do something, and I

12 Jant :-/ou tc1 cc1ffp? and had no i de-2. t;..Jh-3.t the opE-r·at i crn J,\Jas, anij

14 C-3.l ifornia.

15 Hunt ciid ncit belie .,1e tha.t E11·::.ber·g1;.J.3.S

1
-3. Sc11.,.1jet

16 Agent, was improbable I thought because lt was not the

17 clandestine t)'P~ of beha 1.,1ior, de1i 1,,ier·in•;i ttie:-d_OC!Jfn"?nts,_ he'"'

18 told >'OU all that. He did not believe it but he told Barker

20 thought he was worKfng for the government and he thought he

21 ;..Jas ·3. Soviet Agent i n~,101 rJed in counter esp i ona9e and he got

22 rrested, and when he comes up for trial, who is the key

23 'Jitne·=--=· again-:.t hirn? ~1r. Hunt~ bec-3.use the J,\Jhite- Hou-=.e- did

24 at pay him enough money. Mr.- Barker did_ not have enough

25 one)'. That is hot.·-J he came clean. He told the truth.

 i I) 1

I •Of the two, Hunt 'nd Liddy, I find Mr. Liddy's

2 actidns, which I Also find to be reprehensible, more admirable

4 1'-Jo1,9, 1,..Je h.3.Ue 1 ists of p2ople, ._ius.t dur·in 1;i this. tria.l,

5 1Jhc1 t·-lr. Hunt .just tole! u·;. a.re unr-el ia.ble l ia.rs, tiad

6 peop1e,thieves, etc.

7 Mr. Liddy, he testifles against him, Mr. Colson~ and

8 he does not 1 ike r·-1r·. 1=:c11son tieca.use he 52/"'S Colson told him to

9 phoney. up the Diern t.3.ble to destrc1>' the character,. th'e public

10 character of. the President Kennedy, and Liddy ls a maniac, and

' 11 1aybe there are three of them in this case, and then we got to

13 sues hirn fccr rrr.;c.lpr·actice.

14 Remember this, was this.one of the most interesting

15 pa.rts of the trial, )·'1r·. Bidma.n coll.ecting the mone/' 2.n1j 1~i 1Jing

16 it to t'"'1r·. Hunt? Hov.J muchr· He toc1~~ one hundred a.. nd ·::.ixt>'

17 thi::ru·::.and doll-3".r~. for· himself.

18 How much did he give you? I do not remember. That

20 It was several hundred thousand dollars, Mr. Hun~ got

21 but he dici not 1,\Jant to tell /'OU he lieci to :-/1JU l,\Jhen he said

22 that.

23 Somet irnes the 1;.Jj tne-ss.e·::., if the~·' s.3./' I do not rec.3.11

24 or I do not rernember·, you cannot t:e per-.jured . The ._iai 1 s c1f

.,
25 America are full of people sent there for five years cir· so

( ·~·.

·~ .• '
 102

,'.) i th 1,9h o·.=.e crn 1 ;.~ st-2. ternen t

, 1,1Ja.s I do ncit reca.11 when

they should have recalled. He Knows how much money he got.

2

3
He could have given us a ballp?rK figure, 5300,000, $400,000.
'
He remembers every penny that Mr. Sidman got~ the World
4

5
Council of Churches, we Know that they are worse than Satan in

6 terms of the survival of the American people.

He does not ·like t1r·. Rubin. f'1r· .. Rubin TJJas a ]a1,1.1;."'er-

7

8
against the Weathermen case. The case was dropped and Rubln

9
did it.

10
He should be disbarred i f he did it. He cannot dc1 a

',, 11
thing !Ke that without requiring his permission.

He S-3.ici t°'1r·. Rubin 1jid it, it is in the p~.pers, and on

12

13
occasion and here he is controversial a..nd fl.3.mboyant"

14
I heard that phrase before and this is as terrible as

15
''1r-. F:ubin. Mr. Hunt does not l'i¥:e him. He does not 1 iKe Mr.

Ellsberg. Mr. Ellsberg is not exactly a So~iet Agent, but he

16

17

18
a". tr·a". i tor. Mr. Ellsberg is a traitor, like to ~ave somebody

19
paid by your Government to say that about you when you have

20
never been charged with a crime?

21
It is the worst crime there is, treason. Traitor

22
1eans you have been convicted of a treason, and he still had

23
Ellsberg as a traitor and he destroyed him and he did

24
everything he could.

25

.......
 103

You Know what worries me most about this period, we

•
2
We know the Ffelding story. i·Je kn 01,1J

3 about the Watergate break-in tn?cau·3e i t wa-.s one guarci there

i
~ho was in that building, he should have been an American
4

5 hero. I do not know why nobody remembers him, his name,

6 including rne.

What don't we know ~bout what h~ppened they told us,

7

1..~1hat wi 11 the>' nei.,1 er tel 1 us; i f Ja.cl< Ander·son died .:=i.fter a

8
- \
headache and took a pill and seemed to have a bad rea~tlon,
9

10 and this is aspirin roulette, we never would have heard who

11 put it ther·e, tiut don't we kncrt.•.f?

12 It terrifies :/ou if >'OU think about it, i f >'c1u

13
the Warren Commission, the

14 F~oc~~efeller· c:ornrrri'!:-·:=.~o.n Repor·t a.nd e v'er;,...thing,

1
ther·e .::i.re all

16 be1 ie 1)e in a i ttle publication 1 iV~e the Spotl fght brea.k-in

•
"
18 1v 1 ictor t·~1archetti .3.re hercies C1f this period, ·3'.nd th.3.t is V.Jhat

19 makes us a free country, and when they are not allowed to

20 t..\lr i te anymore, tha.t is the end of a 1 ot. He does not iKe the

21 cens.or··=-·· and c:ongress.men, he r;JorJ.~s for· Russ.i -2.ns} sornebody

22 ·:;hould do ·:=.ornething about that.

23 Then, of course, we have Jack AndersonE l<Je know

24 about h i m. He should be killed or at least have his legs

25 broken s
 104

He said he agrees !o that ~nd the Miam1 Herald, they

•
1 ied. The:>' published u-,.,,_t stor·y. They garbled lt to the
2
point of he said everythinq was wronq.
3 - I -
Then, of course, we have here about the lawsuit when
4

tackled 1A1ith this hcirrible little superma.rKet pa.per vJ.3.s going

5
i::iut of bu·;;.ines·::.,. he gcit a \iefaul t .judgrnent. They did not show
6

up. That ls how he got the only judgment so far. Then, of

7
course, Mr. Rubin said is that an underground paper, it is a
8
u 1ti-mi11 i cin do11 ar· huge oper--3.t ion; ncit a.n- undergr·ound pa.per,
9

that ls where the money is.

10

11

12
Afhat did Rubin say, I do not know i f i t is an underground

paper, but we are going to bury i t . That is his lawyer

13

talking at. the deposition, pretty tough talk, but they never
14

filed a lawsuit against·Trento.

15

Look at the things Trento said. You can look at it

16

about the thing~ Trento said and Miss Pari~ said about Mr.
17

Hunt, one hunclre•j times, 1,vor-..::.e than Spcit1ig_ht and did an;. tn:1d:;. 1 1

18

read the Spotlight?

19
You talk about yourselves. Do you Know anybody who
20
read the pu 1 i ca.ti on·? .Did you ever read ft before this case?
21

aw i t could not affect many people i f you never heard about

22
the Wilmington newspaper fs a big circulation, over
23

24
00~000 in that cit;.~ and it is part of a chain and became a

ational stor·y. l,Je heard that from the As;;_ociated Press; Mr.
25
 105

Lurnkin testified through deposition and they ran i t out of the

•
2
Dallas Morning News and i t got publicly around the country;

st~tions
3 radio stations, televisions sent out to these various

pl ace~. ·3.ncl th.3.t becarr1e a 1Jer·~·' trig stcrr:;r'.

4

5
St-3.n-::.f i el ci T-ur·ner· carne and rrtade the staternent b-Ev;;ed

6 upon the Wilmington paper, and remember i t was the Associated

Press, the>' I/Jere sa.;.'ing the LJi lrnington paper, the Spotl ii~ht,
7

9
Trento ~ever met M~rchetli. He -neve~ got anythi~g,

10
not one word of evidence and Trento swears_ it- .not.

He ne 1.,.ier rea.d the Spotlight a.nd he did not ~~nc.11,.t;

11

12 M.,.,r·chett i and Marcr1e t ti says i t is not and you Know why i t was

13
not? Because they were rivals, and Colson was putting one

against ~he other and giving more information to Trento

14

15

16
t·~1r·. c;o1so·n clid th.~.t I dc1 ncit kno11J.

He has.a very interesting history, Mr. Colson in

17

18
Amer· i c.~n Inte-11 i gence and I do not knor~\J r;.;hat those conflicts:.

are, but he is sorneone 1 i~~e f1archetti, rel ie1j upon and had a
19

20
right to rely upon him and did and Mr. Trento was not only

21 told about t, i t VJas shoi:Jn the d1~curr1ent and he s1JJore he S.3.1;..J

22 i t.

!,tJh>,. i..vou l ,j he 1 i e? l.1Jhy 1,tJ1:iu 1d he run that st or/'·? He

23

24 said at the deposition, Mr. Hunt, he ls a conspiracy buff and

25 an assassination buff, a conspiracy theorist.

 Hoz.1..1 1jo you knot;..J? 1,r..Je1 l , you ought to ~~no11J 1,.Jho the;'
•
are. t·Jel l, perha.p·;. I shoul ,j a11d pe1·haps I dcr, I never he-21.rd
2

of Mr. Trento in that context.

3

Mr. T~ento never had written an article about any

4

5
conspiracy around the Kennedy assassination. He r·2.n that one

article t ecau=.e C'.c1Jscin =·hC1V.Jed hirn the docurnent,

1
Hov..r c ou 1 d you
6

not, a CIA document is a big story. It got picked up. It 1,\Jas

7

a coincidence i t was picked up. It got picked up, and he

8
- .
asked Turner, now, it is not .a story in .the.Wilmington.
9

10
newspaperJ but the Director of the Central Intel l i1;ience A1;ienc>'

is di=-cu-=-sing i t -3.nd no1,r..1 it is a. big stor/'; nothing to 1jo with

11

the.Spotlir;iht~ atisolutel>' ncrthing, -~.nd rernernber· nothing to do

12

. ~; i th the Sp cit 1 f g h t •
13
Then we have the Washington Post. They have not been
14
sDed fo~ staying on the front page, blackmail and everything
15
they said and the Dallas Morning News and I will keep on
16
.3.s~~ing th1:i·;;e qu~·;;tions until r,..;e find out .. ,...,We asked them b.3.cj<
17

in i'7·.:::,:3 .3.nd /4 a.nd v.1e a..::.ked them unti1 the cOngres.sional

18

Committee r.~.ias ·=.et up, I v.Jrote the resolution that set. i t up.
19

I 1;.1orf'.ed v;i th the members of the Congress to represent th~

20
Kennedy and King assassination. That was the most thorough
21
investigation done by a Congressional committee.
22
Congress said how could you expect the committee of
23
Congress, and I said Doctor King is dead, the President is
24

dead. They do not have the authority to do very much. They

25

"
 iG7

did something. The>'" r·a.i·::.e·j~question·3, The>' said the l.iJ-3.rren

•
2
Commission was wrong. The/'" ha.cf a consp i rac;-' a.ncl we ·=.ti 11 de·

4
They said that the Department of Justice

investigation had found out who killed President kennedy~ the

5

6
Department of Justice said no, so the questions will be gone

and Mr. Marchetti will continue asking for a fee.

7
I t 1A1a·=- a."n.ticip-3.ted i t v,1ou1d be in the cornpa.ny c1f a
8

would not ask any hard questions and maybe come in and try to
10
settle -it, and when they scuffled across me I said, sure, here
11

I .3.m, s.c1 it i·3 a fight d.nd it is a. piece of Arner·ica.n hi-=:.tor-;-'

12

and you will write the last page of this paragraph of the
13

h is.tor·~.,,. bc10~:: .
14

Let us talk about the truth. We do not have to show

15

the tr-u th. I be l i e .,ie there

1

16

is no way in th~ world that you can say that it has been
17

proven that .Carto or Tucker knew that the article was false or
18

I<~ne;IJ ~
'-d
11ct. -r1
-=1.
-,,-~-r.=..--
·"::!o./· =-·:::·
-='-·' ~ 1- +1-,,t
_1 ...., t_•,.,_
1 ·5+__,_ternents
_, J;.Jer-e r,1rcrt1at1ly·
•
19

20 fal ·3e-.

I bel i e•.,1e there is. nov.J 1,1.;ay th.:r.t }'"OU can r·e.:i.ch that
21

conclusion when they relied upon Mr. Marchetti, and I would

22

rel}' upc1n tv1r. ~1d.rchetti.

23

24

25

..r: '·'
 108

I think the publishers of Penthouse Magazine or Mr.·

/ •
Colson said he did not turn in the article.
2
Nill not work with him.
3
'(ciu =-a.1..•.J the check an cf f'OU s.a-.i. 9 the con tr·ei.c t.
4
~orking with him; Penthouse Magazine, he is doing two articles
5
related tc~ intelli1;rence a.ctivity.
6

7
I dci ncit ~~not.'J 1,~;here f1r·. Col son ·3ai d th-3.t. There i =· a.

po1,•Jer struggle 1~oir11;i o·n a.trout a.n}'TJ.Jhere in the CIA. There is

8
-
one in PenthciJJ·se. That is beyond a matter of concern for us
9

10
~
;; t"1r·. t·,1-=-.r·chetti i..::. -3. r·el i.3.tile per·..::.crn in the ar·e.?. of
"! 11

rneric.a-.n intelligence. If there was a story on the question

12

of electr·cinic·=·~ a..::. I -:.aid i t e.3,r·lier, in one of the

13

depositions, you could not rely upon Mr. Marchetti

14
expert in electronics, but you can in the a~ea of American
15

j ntel 1 i gence .. That is almost all you can do, someone who has
16
a.cces.s to this .infc:irm-3.ticin tell=- }'"OU it is tr·ue if~ f'"OU ¢ci
17
tha.t., -~.nd )"C•U dci- not ~~nc•VJ tha.t the statement·5. are fa.1 s.e ~ a.nd
18
you do not have a high awareness of the statement~ are
19

probabl/' f3.l=-e. That is the end. of the case, even if, in

20
fact, t·hey are yours. That is why I ask Y?U to accept the
21
1 avJ,. it d.:1es not seern right the ttJhol e thing is a 1 i e, if YOU
22
did not think it 1,..J.;..s~ }'OU ha .,.1e to dismi..::.s the case.
1
That is
23

the l ac·J.
24

25

\. -
 10?

' '•. It is the 1 a.v.;, p .e o_p 1 e sa. i d ~ I knovJ the l 3JJ.J, and there
•
j.:: -3. pr· ice tha.t :-/ou pa>~ fc1r being d.ctit..1e in public life.
2

3
1aybe that is the way i t should be done and 'say break into
i

4 somebody's office, challenge official reports, then you are

5 f 2. ir game.

6 The only thing they cannot do is publish something

the>' ~~noi;.; is 2. 1 i e .:i.nd i t cou 1 d be r;.;r·crn•;i 2.nd }'OU ma./' be

7

8
daIT1.3.gec:i t:1}' i t -3.nd ·=:.till ther·e is f/Ct ]a.tAl-=.IJit.

I lMill ta.1~~ -3.bout the dea.th c•f President f-(enned)-'.and

9

10
what the facts are~ although it is not necessary i f every work

11 of Marchetti's article was untrue, and even if he thought it

1/.Jas. untr·ue as 1 crn9 a·s t·,1r·. c:.3.r·tc• and f·1r-. Tuc~~er bel i e 1Je it tc1
12

be true.
13

14
It is the end of the case. That is why I said would

}'OU .3.ccept the 1 aJ. tJ even if )'Cru do not 1 i ke it·? It doe·=- not
15

16
seerri ri1;iht, it i·=- the la.wand I think the Court 1Nill sa.>'

something 1 ike ~1is, if the Court does nc;t pa.~-' attention to

17

an~,...thing Isa>' in this area, I 1,..Joul,j not tie tellin1~ /'1:iu this
18

if I Knew that the Judge would issue or read to you

19

instructir:ins IJ.Jhich ar-e 1...1 er-y close to thi·=· and identical in

20

terms of content.
21

I now want to go to the question, I want to go to the

22

23 question of r.,r,tha.t h..=:i.ppened in Da11a.s that day·.

24 L\Jhat the- evidence ·shovJ-s and 1JJhat I think is

25 re.;i.sonable of 2. conclusion to dra1.M, I am suspicicius crf i"1r,,.

 110

Hunt, he cannot tell us where he was, cannot prove where he

•
~as on November 22nd.
2
I am -::.usp i c i ous cif that becau-::.eVJe al l could pro Je 1

3 j
A1here T;.Je 1J..;ere and he is the only one who c2.nnot prove, cannot
4
bring a· slew of witnesses that was closed down, th~t quest1on

on whether the article was correct in raising that question,

6

the article never said he was there. That ls another thing,

7
he is there and the CIA will prove it, the CIA memorandum and
8
\-
9
Mr. Trento read i t and he swore to you that is the
10
end of the facts and the case, but let us go further.
11
We have an historical opportunity, how could we turn
12

i t dor;.Jnf' Let us go further and see what else there is.

13
tv1r. Hunt J..'>J·3".S una.t•le tc1 r·ea.11/' esta.bl ish a.n alibi a.nd
14
the ·predictions made a long time ago, he wi_ll end up with CIA
15
..r.Ji tnesses, that would be natural, i f he .1ere. in the CIA
1,..
16
c1f f ice, U-1-'< t is.where he was for the next ,...,
thr·ee-
... days, but he
17
sa.ys he t.\ias not_. He 1,..J.3.S not there a.fter the· President wa-s
18

killed. He 1..,.Ja-;:. at hcrrr1e.

19
Anybody call you? If you had to ~hink back now~ .. 01d
20
}'OU get a. phone ca 1 1 at home on t'--!01.Jembe r 22nd'? Did your
21
par-en ts call? Would they testify for you? Did rrot have to
22
s.ee you. The;.' VJi11 call you a.t home. People 11Jill talk to
23
each crthe-r ~ It is a. ter·r·ible thing, now, }'OU t.\Jill r·err1ember
24

25

(
-~
 I
111

;···-
you were hanging on to see ~hat would happen next. Hoi,.v cou 1 d

2 And why are his.children not here?

3 I 1,9j 11 tel 1 }'OU 1,vhat trciubl es. rne about that mor·e tha.n
i
4 anything else that we would say things to help ou~ parents

5 out, unle·3s t.AJe thought our· fa.ther did somethini;r re2.11:-/~ re2.lf;:.'

6 terrible, which we could not-be involved in, and they Knew

7 that. They knew that and they did not put them on and never.

, __
8 tci 1 d u·::. u.Jh}'.

He did not
. . -
1 ike Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hunt did not, Helm·,;
9

10 tol 1j >'c•u he rea.d 2.bout al 1 the things th-3.t Hunt h~·ted f-(enned:·>.
:, I do not think any of you would forge any documents
) 11

12 about any American President, but certainly would not do i t

13
.3.bout 2. Pr·e-::.j dent \Jho· }'DU 1 i
1•. ~~ed. He hated h irrr.

14 John Kennedy, through his friends and boss, Allen

15 Dulles, threw him to the wolves. It i ·::. a phra.-=·,

16 the 1AJc1lves .• to Kill, rip you apa:.r·t, rip /'our fle-=.h off. Th3.t

..' 17 !s what John Kegnedy did to Allen Dulles. That i-::. his

18 la.ngu~.ge. He h:o.ted him.

19
When ha hated someone, he took action. Ycru and I

20
might sit around and say isn/t that guy terrible, someone

21 shoudl 'dc1 sornethin9. He is not a talker.

22
The Plaintiff in this case is an activist. tJhen he

hated Ellsberg he tried to destroy him. t~Jhen he hated

23

24 Ellsber·g, he tried to 1jestro~..- Ellsber•;t/·:; relationship t.<Jith the

25 doctor.

\:_:2·
 112

.......
When he hated Ells~erg, he tried to destroy
•
E11sberg/s lawyer and.Ellsberg/s relationship with the lawyer,
2
-3.nd then he to] d you .a.bout Leon.ard Boudi ne, the l a.1/.J)'er in
3 i
que·::.tion, 3.bout hor,0 his. rjaughter 1,•.J.3.S arre=.ted a little while
4

.=i.go, still ha.tes him, sti11 guilt by .;.ssociation.

5
It is pretty sad, he said Ellsberg was a traitor and
6
then he tooK action.
7
Kennedy betrayed him. There 1s no doubt in his heart
8
- - .
that Kennedy betrayed his friend in the Cuban cornmunit>·, the
9

anti-Castro Cubans did not provide the air cover, ·they got
10

1civ.,1ed dov.Jn on the bea:.ch bec.3.use the pl a.nes t.0ere n'ot there.
11

12
Kennedy killed people as far as he is concerned,

threw his boss to the wolves.

13

14

1"2.}' ~Jot~ .;.g.3.i n-=.t h irn. That is what you beJ leve we have a
15

different concept c•f cit i zen·:;h i p fr·ctrr1 the p:op le~ and they
16
take different ~lnds of actions, break-ins,_ and he-said he
17

does not ~~no1}J 11.Jhere the E:rookings Ins.titution i-::.•

18
ever been to Washington? If you have been to Washington, you
19

20
I pass i t fifty times a week, driving_back

and forth. Hc1v.J could an7•bod)' not Knot.v t.·Jhere Br·crok i ngs
21

22
Institute is. It is cine c•f the rnost important th i ni;is in the
cc11Jn try. It is a few blocks from where he said his office
23

24
vas. I do not Kn01J...l IJ..Jhere th.3.t is somet irnes you get a little

25
expressive when you are trying to make the.point, they tried

·-· "'
 11 3

t--
1. :. to rob from us, c•ur- right -3.? Arnerica.n citizens tc make the 1

•
decisions and make mistakes i f we want.
2
I would rather us hav~ mistaKes than have Mr. Hunt
3
>
.. ~ and his fellow spies try to manipulate us, because when a
4

a.utcicr·-9.t i c gr·ou p rn.3.kes dee i si cins:- th3. t is F-3.SC i ·;;rr1 , 3,nd

5 sma.1 l

that is t.'-Jha.t he- -=·tan d·:. fc,r· and th«. t i -=· VJh-3.t he hd.'!:- =:.tood fcrr·
6 '
his whole 1 ife, and i t is just an absolute contravention of
7
everything that we say this country has stood for for two
8

9
It was not a thirty day blur, i t was ari effort to
10

·tJ,. destroy us and we have survived and i f we have survived [t is

11

possibly beciuse there is a free press or press, at least on

12

occasion that says something that does something and on

13

occ.;i.sii::in a little tiit una.fr-3.id~ ,jcr not ter·rif~.-· thern inter

14

15
silence.

Mr. Hunt says why isn/t the CIA here? They have a
16

Director noi;.;. i;le h a-.s fi l e -=·. '(OU 1;..1or ~< e d for a bci·s.s on
17

t"lo .Jember 22nd ..

1 ~f c1u r bo·:.s comes here a.n.d tel ls us t;.;her-e )"'OU
18

1;.;ere. Why isn/t his boss here; some former so-and-so?

19

Everybody is former. There was a brigide of retired peb~le

20
who came to this Courtroom. Why don't the real ones come?
21
Because they know the truth and they won't come.
22
the files and they won't bring them. Is that suspicious?
23

Why don't they tell us about the memorandum? Right

24
in the Courtroom a.nd I a.m not bJ.o.ming Mr. Hunt for not
25

...
 114

( r·ernerrrt•er i ng. I am saying w~ can reach some conclusions

''·· •
because they did, in fact, not come.
2
Where are the character witnesses? Where are the
3 i
alleged alibi witnesses? Where is everybody? I ne 1.1er s.=i.r1J a
4
case without a real alibi witness and without a single
5
character witness.
6
I .3.rn i;.oing to c](:ise T;Ji th a 1 i ttl e reference to t'-1cir·i ta
7
Lcrrenz, a11 that extraneous matter Jong before we reached how
8
could we not put her on.
9

10

Government, by the CIA to kill Fidel Castro.

11
She said i t on numerous occasions, it's been accepted
12

b?" Intelligence. She worked for the CIA. She said she worked
13
in that area with Frank Sturgis, fatrick Hemming, E. Howard
14
Hunt.
15
She ~~nc11,~Js. a.11 a.bout the aci:itJit/' tha.t r;.Jent cin.
16
1ot,ied guns and i:he;.." mo .Jecj guns a.nd that
1• t..oJa.~- their joQ .. _
17
Mr. Hunt paid, she testified to that. They could
18
in all Kinds of documents 1 statements, experts to
19
say that is not true, where are they? And she said she went
20
to Dallas and it was an assignment at something.
21
Hunt came and gc1t the pa.yoff and she left and we- 1,..;ere
22
told, wait, a minor miracle about the alibi witness was found
23
fr-om t'~ovember 21st.
24

25
 115·

·, __
. , It

2
1Ja·;;. a l ittle ::.ur·pr·i·:.in,~, I thin~~~ th.3.t is true. I do ncrt

3
think, though, i t was created in Heaven that miracle.
I
4
She remembered where she was on November 21st. Do

you remember where the meeting was? It st.a.r-ted t11JCr~

5

left four-thirty.
7

8
down to Dallas, three, four hours and when you get there in

9
the ~vening, which is what Morita said, .and that is stili

10
early evening, why don?t they prove that is not true?

11 l..tJe11~ th.3.t is left no1A1, vJe a.re left, nc.1ne of tha.t is

12 relevant in terms of what the first question are that you

f a-.ce.
13

We thought you were en~itled to everything we could

14

flnd about this and so we presented all of it to you.

15

16
There is a kind of a non-partisan identity, a logical

17
conflict her·e ir,. thi·;; Courtr·oorn. I think the 1.d.t.\J is clear in

18
terms of what you should do and I think that what you must do

19 in term·;; of finding for the Cefend.3.n t, e1v en before I 1;ie t

1 1
in to

21 the l avJ- is so cl e.3.r, be ca.use there is not one shred c1f

22 ev i de-nee, their con duet and char·ac ter to be be 1 i e•.;ed, the

2J article is false and they had every right to rely upon Mr.

24 ty1archetti and no hii;ih degr-ee of .=._1.Nareness, i t mi 1;iht be fa.1~.e,

25 because the,- relied upon Mr. Marchettia and what could be

 ii 6

checked out, the>' r,9rctte the~ hea.dl i ne~., the he.~.dl i ne·3 .:i.r·e
•
perfect.
2
burn_, they posino as a bum and that is what the paragraph is
3 I
about .
4

5
Th-3". t i =· the a 11 ega ti cin rnade b::,... some bod;:.., else, sarrie

thing was pub1 ished and i t takes you out of the range of an
6
ordinary libel suit.
7
VJh~.t i=· treing =--3.id her-e~ is Lt.later-gate· in-::.ignificant?
8
I-
Pa::.' no attentic)n to it. The l;Ja.rref-1 ·Cc1mrrri·~.'sion rnust be
9

10

the House Select Comrr1ittee on A:=.s2.ssina.tions must be beiiet;e,j,

11
if }'OU bel iet.Je a.11 Df thcrs.e /'OU v..1i 11 f.ee1 like -3. hurnan pr·etzel
12

because they take different positions.

13

14

15
the Hou-=:.e Selectic1n c:ccrnrnittee i;JhCt say-=. i t r,..;as. as ccins.pir.~C/'
16

and yet you hav~ to prove they are both rigbt-

17

I f yr::ru cannot h-~.ve faith, t"1r .. :=;n}'der said,_ if you

18

cannot have faith in these men, in whom can you have faith?
19
In }'ourse1i;es, in )'Our rnirrij, in >,.our ab i l it>' to ana 1 >'ze -~.nd in
20
the system that we have built up over two hundred years that
21
tell us that no small group of guys coming out of the shadows
22
can make decision·:. for us, th.~t 1;.;e are the American people,
23
that we have a democracy here, th3t we forged it, and we
24
suffered for i t and we fought for i t and we have i t and we
25
 11 7

Ni 11 not turn i t ouer to th_ern and 1;.Je 1,.Ji 11 ncrt let thern destroy

2
the relationship between doctors and patlents.

J,.Je i ] ] not let them rdestroy

3
VJ
. our electoral S/'s t em .3..nd

4 nc1 t 1 et thern destr·c•)-' -3. free pr·es·=:;. VJher·e a. rn.3.n 1 i ~~e t.)i ctcir

5 Marchetti could come out of the shadows and say in the

6 sunlight tci al1 of u::. that this i~- '.J.Jhat the>' are doing, it is

wrong, you are paying for ft. It is in )''c1ur name and it is

7
Wf' Cert 1;;t.
8

9
I implore you to stop and go and talk to the Senators

and he talks to the members of Congress ~nd Mr. Hunt says they
10
,i
:1 11
are Soviet Agents, those Congressmen and Senators, and i f you
'

12 bel i e 1.}e that, i;ii 1.,ie him hi::. a1..•.J3.rd.

If }'OU bel ie1.}e this. is .3. s.,:iciet}' 1;.Jher·e ~Je ha 1Je

13

14 r·e·::.ponsi bi 1 i. t.i es a.nci citizens to see to i t tha.t the fr·ee pr·e-::.·3

15 continue-=·~ tha.t 1_.9e enci::i.ur·a.1;ie in1.,iesti1;i-a.ti 1.,1e ._icrur·nal isrr1, then

16 find for the Defenda.nt. Th a.n k /'OU •

17 (Thereupc1ri ,- a -.=.hort rece·::;.s 1;.J.3.S h.3.d, after· l.r..th i ch the

18 folloi;.Jing proceedings resumed.)

19 THE COURT: You may proceed w!th your closing portion

20 of your argurnen t.

21 MR . SNYDEF~: Ladies and gent~emen, this is a portion

22 1;Jhere I i;Jet to try to respond tc1 some of the things that Mr.

23 Lane has been tel 1 i ng :;..~ou atrou t. I have about thirty-five

24 minutes in which to do i t and I will try to be even briefer

25 than that. The first thing I c.iant to talk about is the

 ii 8

(.-. testimony of Morita Lorenz. This ls the woman who testified

•
that she and L~~ Harvey Oswald and JacK Ruby and all those-
2
good folks drove from Miami to Dallas and arrived in Dallas
: 3 i
the day before President Kennedy was killed and was met there
4
by Mr~ Hunt, who came into the room, opened up a suitcase full
5
of money and passed i t out, $2,000.
6
I think when we talk about her testimony you will
7
realize that i f / .. OU think / .. ciu enter-ed the Fun Hciuse, r_.1-;hen >. ou
8

9
in ch~rge of the Fun H6u~~' that is Morita Lorenz.
10
She·was asked whether she ever told the FBI about
l l

this. 1;.;ilcf tale, that she i·.::. te11 ing, .3.nd she sa/.. s, >. es, I ,jjd}
12
and the ques.t i on i s 1_.o.Jhen -2.n d she ·=··3..>. ·~ in i'!o fembe r
1 of 19~.3 and
13

·:.he ma!< es the -::.taternent rj j d /'OU tel l hi rr1 the ~r' a·=·~~ed--d id >.. OU
14 '
tefl him everything and she says, yes, but they did not seem
15

interested in that. They seemed interested in the father of

16
y daughter, th~ father of my baby.
17
She testified th.at she had given birth to an out .o~
18
~edlock child by the former dictator of Venezuela.
19
she associated herself with a lot of dictators. Li st en tc1
20
this testimon/·.
21
You told the FBI up here in November of 1963 that you
22
took a car trip to Dallas with seven men with guns. "(ou got
23
there on November 21st.
24

25

:.
 11 '7'

( F~ernerr1ber· thi"s is .just after the t<enned/' killing. He

..
2 ~as killed on the 22nd and she testifies she talked to the FBI

3
in t. .10 1.} ember .

4 They did not ask me any details until much later~

5 especially at the time of the hearing. They just asked me

6 about my relationship with my daughter/s father and then the

7
questic1n·;; .3.re, 11
Who was your daughter's father? 11

8
Her· ans1,\1er t.AJ.3.s., a 1 ine cif ci::il lciqU/"', 1;.;here ciid >··ou

1eet the a.gent, ~pe.3.l<ing c1f the FBI agent in Neu.,1 "fork in the
9

10 month of November of 1963?

11 !rt the off ice.

·'
l2 Jerse)"'. I am not sure 1.:Jhat tha.t mea.ns.

13 The question was: C1 i cl /"CrJJ tel 1 thern things. abcrut the

14 trip tcr D.3-.. l 1 .~...s frorr1 fvl i arn i a.rPj the .~n·st.ver· r,i..1as >~es.

15 The question was: Did they ask you anything which

16 you think is refated to the Kennedy assassination?

17 l.:J.3..S: No, not r•ally, Just that they were wild boys, my

18 .3.ssoc i ates do1,~1n there a.nd, noi,~;, tha:.t I ha.d a. child I 1JJa·3 tci

19 rest and sleep for a while.

20 Now that I had a child I was to rest and sleep for a

21 1,..Jh i le . That is what she told the FBI wheri the entire country

22 is in an uproar, trying to figure out who did it arid what it

23 pretends, she ·,;a>'S they did not ask me ·"bout that. They .just

24 told me to identify the father of my baby.

25 Does that make.an arm of sense?

..· ~.

{ ·.
....
· ~·.-·
 120 .

,,·-~
(.
'·-··
·.··
. She testified befo.r-e the House Se1ect Committee on
,
Assassinations and Mr. Lane has introduced an affidavit or as
2
an exhibit a.n orijer- cif the Cour-t compelling her to te-=:.tif7', if
3
she did, she was asked did you ever see a copy of your
4

5
First she ~ays no, I dld not, and then she says, yes,
6
_ I did. Then she sa7's, no, I did not. t"1)"' la.r1-JJer did.
7
Then she says I fired my lawyer. Let us suppose she
8
did testify before the House Select Commit-tee on
9
Ass.as·;;. i nations..
10

":J l l
their conclusion?

Remember, she has everybody in this caravan working

12
for the CIA. She calls it Operation Forty.
13

··. ;~
Mr. Scott Milan testlfled in all of his years as
14
c:hief of Counterintelligence for the C:IA, he never he.;:r.rd c.if
15

Jperation Forty, because that is what she said it was c·alled.

16
the €IA hears their.conclusi6n,. : "/ based on -the
17
committee's entire investigation. It concluded the correct
18
_onversat~on, FBI and the CIA were· not involved in an
19

20
Here is the sentence where Mr. L~ne tells you this
21
_omrnittee divulged from the l,.J.3.rren Cornmi·5sion Report,
22
incidentally I have never introduced the Warren Commission
23
; ..... ' ,eport in this case. It is volumes and volumes long.
.-··· 24

25
 121

I do not knc11;.J 1A1heth..er- Lee Harve/' 0·3t.iJald had a. helper .

•
2
I just know who the helper was not.

3
This report goes on tcr,.sa.}" the comrr1ittee conclude1j
'
4
that it is probable the President was assassinated as a result

5 of a conspirac:;.-'.

6
Nothing in the committee/s inves·tigation pointed to

an official involvement in that conspiracy.

7

8
Rernernber· this i =· the ma.jc1r it>' cif the comrni ttee i the

~oncluded
9 . minority there was no.conspiracy, while the

10
comm1ttee frankly acknowledged that its investigation was not

11
able to identify the members of the conspiracy, besides

CJs1,\J.~.ld, i t dcies not inclucie the Secr·et Service, the Feder.3..l

12

Bureau of Investigation or the Central Int e 1 1 i 1;::ie n c e Agency.

13

14
What can you conclude?
Lorenz either did not go before or i f she dld, they did not
15

16
believe a word of it.

17
She wa~ asked when did you leave Dal las, Texas?

18
She said she went there as a decoy. I do not knoi..v

what the decoy was, she does not Know what she said or what
19

she was supposed to do. Here is whit she said about leaving
20
[)all as.
21

22 "Can you place this meeting in the motel room with

23 t"1r. Sturgis, t'"1r. Hunit, :;.'our·;.elf and others in rela.tion=.hfp to

24 November 22, 1963?u

11 11
25 The an·:.wer 11-Jas, Can I place zNhere I 1,\las? r-10.

'
'
 - i 22

11
Can you tell us iry relationship to the date
• ·'
President Kennedy was killed when this meeting took place?u
2
11
"ThP- daY
f-.
before.
3
She asked when did the meeting take place and she
4
says early evening.
5
The question was: 11
How soon after that evening
6
eeting took place did you leave Dallas? 11
7
The -Ei.n-s:.1,ver· 1,.\1a-::.: ur left about two hours later,
8
~ovember 21 . . Frank took me -to the ·air~cirf and ~~·went bacK to
9
11
""1i-=uni.
10
Later in her deposition, she comes up with another
l l

12
The question was: 11
What day did you fly out of
13
Dallas to Miami? 11
14
11
The .3.ns1,\.1er· 1,~.1a-~:
11
Sarne d.3.)-", t'-Jov erribe r 22nd.
15
The question was: 11
It was the day Kennedy was
16

17
u-..(es.11
18
11
G"luest ion. Were you involved in a coverup after the
19
assassination of the President?
20
nAnsv.ter. Co1Jerup,. no.
21
11 1]uest i c1n. What did you do when you got to New York
22
and found out that President Kennedy was Just assassinated?
23
Talked to the FBI.'
24

25
 21-:;t.
. That

Then she left on

is version number
,
the 22nd and then
twow First she left on the

co~es version number

2
three. This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 29 1 which is from the
3
r
4
Associated Press, a story of September 20~ 1977. f'liss. Lorenz~

.. ccording to the Daily News, went by car to Dallas from Miami

5

Fr.=-.n}~ ~;turgis., .~.nd

6 ..Ji th O-s.1,\J2.ld,. C:IA Agent one of the five men

7 .Jho br·c:d<e into the Derricicr-atic r\L3.tiona.l f1J2.terg.3.te Co·mplex five

8 :'ear..:. ago} C:uban exile 1 ea.der··:; (Ir 12.ndo Bosch anci Pe1jr-cr [) i -3.Z

.9

10 She was sent back to Miami two days before Kennedy

11 .Jas f'.i I led. That was the 20th. She testified she did not go

12 efore the Warren Commission because she did not thinK she had

n~/thin•;i to tell thern; irnagine th2.t.

13

14 She said she made no effort to get involved, told the

15
E:I the entire stcir/': but the:;.' did no·t l/.)ant to knot. .J a.n>... thing

16
bout i t ~ They wanted to Know about the father of her baby.

17
I do noJ: ~~nov.) t.<Jh.3.t )-'OU lJJi 11 do IJ.)i th this test irnciny,

18
adies and gentlemen. I think there is a t:;..'pe of a persc1n out

.here 1,~Jho f s v~1ha t I c.:i. l 1 confessor, if }'CIU 8 ,}er

1
19

20
.a 1 ked tc' pcrl i cernen )''c1u VJ i 1l learn that sometimes there j s ·~.

21 .
1otor i o!Js rnurderer and fifteen people ca. l l up the pcrl ice ar11j

22
..:i.y, he>', I ,jjd it, ccirne lc•cr~~ .:i.t rneJ take ·rr1/' picturE<~ I ,jjd

23 t, I did it.

24 I think that is what Morita Lorenz is all about. She

25 Jants to place herself in DallasJ but her testimony does not

 124

i1ang tcrrde th er· .:r.nd i t fl i es .r·ight in the face of that Bet t ;.·
• ' '
'1.3..c In to::.h, l.~Jh C1 h-3.d nc1 r·eascin that I I< n ct1,..J Cif to l i e
2 ' '
She came dovJn here frorn Leesburq, t)irginia. She had
I -
3
o wait around five days before she got to testify, and then
4
_estified that Morita Lorenz,. story ·was a lie.
5
She had seen and talked four hours with Howard Hunt
6
n Washington on November 21st, the day before, 1963.
7
She was absolutely unshakable to that. A n e 1;.J l av.J r:J -3. s
8
truck in this trial when i t wa~ insinuated.that Mr. Hunt's
9
hildren woul~ not back him up and that th~y ~hought he had
10

iarticlpated 1n some horrible crime, page 253 of the

11

~ockefeller Commission Report says Hunt and Sturgis testified·

12
1 nder oath to the members of the Commission Staff that they
13
cc th den j ed that the)-~ !;..Jere in C1 .3.l l .3.S· Of! the date ::.f the
14

.. s.sa.ss i na. ti crn.

15

16
throughout t-hat da/' and his testimony was~. supported by
17 :· .
17
f his children and a former domestic emp1o~e~ of the Hunt
18
amily, and a 1 ittle footnote, a son who was nine years old at
19

he time could not recall where his parents were.

20
The fourth and youngest Hunt chil~_was not born then
21
nd Mrs. Hunt is now deceased .
. 22
I had tc1 rna~~e a deci~.ion as a. trial l2.1..A.1yer to bring
23
o yciu members of Mr. Hunt'"s family a.s witnesses.
24

25
 125

~· . - '
.tv1R. LAJ"'.JE: '(c•JJr Hon.or .l
~
1_.._1e cannot 1;io into ar·eas nc•t on

THE COURT: Objection [Ustained.

3

MR. SNYDER: I had to make a decision as to whether

4

•r not tci bring to yi::iur- -3.ttention rnerrrber·:. of the Hunt farnil:;r'

5
r other people who were not related to Howard Hunt and I made
6

he deci·;;.icin---
7
MF:. LA~·1E: Your Honor, this is what I objected to and
8

9 _he Court sustained i t .

THE COIJF:T: Objection sustalned.
10

MR. LANE: tdou l d }'OU 2.1jrnon i =::h t·'1r·. Sn }'de r not to go

11

12 ntc1 thi=:- .3_r·e-3.•

THE COURT: I am sure he shan't.

13

14 MR. LANE:
MF'.. :::NYDEF:: You were asked why Hunt's boss was not
15

16 roughi: in. His na-.rne r;-.1.=r..s Bc•nd·=·· Jv1r. Hunt._te·;;.tified he is

17 e-3..d.

You were asKed why no one from the CIA, why no other
18

1erson carne tci -s-t2.nd up for Hoi;.Jard Hunt.

19
Well, I can thing of four of them, Mr. Kuzmak, Mrs.
20
·1azeroff·, Mr·. Milan, Mr-o.• Macintosh, Mr. Kuzm_ak, and the
21
He i -=- the gU}' vJho came out
22
11
1,~Ja 1Jed
23 11f the rest2.ur-ant said, "Hi, Hoi...Jard, to HovJa.rd .a-.nd

24 orothy and they waved back, very clear-.

25
 126

(: He i ·3 a. l ·30 the gu}..- ,,.:l:ha t re3.d the Sp cit 1 i gh t art i c 1 e,

•
. Jrote 11
He}', i f }'cirJ need
2
w~re
11
ielp, I can testify where you that day.
3
Thc1-=.e ar-e the tv.Jo s.3.l ient f.3.ctcir·s -3.bout t·,1r. Kuzrri-3.~~,,s.
4

5
What Mr-. Lane is trying to do is nibble at the edges
6

f it. That is a good lawyer- I suppose. You cannot attack

7
he core of it, nibble on the edges of it, who ·dr-ove the
8

.wo-man car pool? Did he drive? Did Dorothy drive? You

9
1 annot remember, can you?
10
When did you first writ·e to Mr. Hunt? Did you ever
11

·ind two people who agree on all aspects of some story? You
12

'an be sure you are 1 i-.:.tening to a 1 ie. Most of us do not

13

• oes.
15

The two Key facts about Mr. Kuzmak was that he saw
I
16
f• cr~~J.3".rd a.n1j Dor·citl-i~,.. just a.fter President Kennedy was shot at
f 17

18
lJ.Jcr o" cl oc ~~ .

Mr. KuzmaK saw him at twelve o"clocK, and that he

19

.ol.unteered to come forward and testify, and we read his

20

21
eposition toda.}'•

r'1rs.• t"iazerciff carne a11 the 1;.;a/' from Chic.a.go tc1 st.3.nd
22

p for HoJ..·Jar-cf Hunt~ What does she have to gain? I c:Jo not
23

24

ubpoena. does. A trial subpoena could be issued from this

25.
 ourt to anyone living in Miami or anyone iving in a radius
·'
2 f 100 rri i 1 es fr· D!Ti the c -'2 n t er c1f f·'1 i .;i.rri i .

t-~oi,o.J, ccrme-~
3 .3.n)''l:::iod)-' else L\tho
'cannot be compe11ed to
.
4 .he;' 1....Jil 1 h.::c. .;e to cc1rr1e vcr111nt2.r·i 1)-', .a.nd 1,tJhat I
1 think has to b-e

5 11buiou·3 is th.3".t t"1f'S. t·,tazeroff ca.me fr·om Chicago to ~-d./',

11 I

6 .Jant to sta.nd up fc1r- HoW-3.f'd Hunt. I s.a.v.J h!rn c1n the da;-' in

I saw him coming to lunch as I was corning back from

7
11
unch.
8

t·,1rs. t·'l-3.ier·off r,tfa.·::. a t1,.Jent7·· year- old cler·k _t>'_pis

9

1.Jork i ng a. t. the -~.1~p?ncy. She has been out of Government work

10

11
ince 19.£4. That ls her testimony, 1964. :=;he is a tr·avel

That is what she does. She

13 ,1.=i.·3 nc.i:t r·eacin tci lie, ancf she c.3-.rne her· to ·3t.~nd up fcir· her·

'. 14 riend, Howard, who is be.Ing maligned.

15 Sccitt l"ti lan--I a..rn ·3c1r·r·1-;, /;CtU 1jjd not get t•:i rneet t·1r·.

16 1ilil.n. He was here for flve days and had to go bacK to

17 lbuquerque, Ne~ Mexico. That ls an awful.iy. 19ng wait~

18 He left u-::. his depositic1 n sa.)-;in•;i:.th·at in all the

20 11ever he-.;.r·d of 1Jper·at ion Fort~,;. He never heard of Frank

21 turgis-being an Agent. That is consistent with the

22 ocl<efeller Commission tha.t says Frank Sturgis ne .Jer 1,<Jas an 1

23 gent.

24 t1r""s. t·.t!acintosh, she carne fr·cim Leesburg,_ ~1 irginia.

25 he has been retired for years, for years~.· She is almost

-· ;
....,._...
....
~.

\._~_:,.
 128

I
"' She did not have to come here. She cou1d

2 have said, 11
Hc11,...iar·-d, gcicrd 1uc!<~ but I dc1 not t.'Jant tci get

3 inuolved.u

4 She did not say that. She carne here anij r,tJhen the

5 question was put to her, 11

Is the test[mony of Morita Lorenz
6 true or fa 1 se:=· 11 ~3h e -;;.a i d ~
11
It i ·s a 1ie • n

7 She recalls meeting Mr. Hunt on Thursday and she did

8 every Thursday and remembers what she d.iscussed, and then she

9 remembers what she did on Friday.

10 I VJis.h I had a fr·iend I if:e th.0<t ..
11 Mr. Lane has made a point about the Weberman suit
12 Fir-=.t cif a.11 ~ he rneans to irr1pl}' to ~·'CdJ th.3.t

13 Carto and Tucker somehow knew about that in 1978 when they

14 The test i rncfn >' i ·;:. th.~. t the li.Je be r·..rn-3.n -=;.u i t VJ-3.·:::.

15 not dropped untll 1982~ Why was it dropped? Mr. Hunt

16 testified to tha.t. First he said the publisher of Weberrnan

·, 17 -
and Canfield, as anybody who incorporated of the press that

18 ~ent bankrupt, went to Nig~ria, then he found out that

19 ~eberman and Canfield were totally destitute.

20 his then 1.:i.1..~1:1~er·, get rici cif the ca-:.e. Take the $5,000.

21 As it tarns out, Mr. Hunt testified that Rubin was

22 orking for- another client narnes. Schekle F.:._s.se, 1,..1ho· apparently

23 flies .:r.1 l ot,ier the countr:-/ a.nd F.:ut:rin 1~~Ji th hirn, -3..nd as thin1;i=:.

24 turned out, tJ.Jithout the authc1rity of Mr. Hunt, Mr. Rubin

25 displays that Weber~an case for zero, a goose egg.

:"

2 in 15'78, tha.t cicc-iJ-r·red-in 1:?E:2, f-1r·5 F~ubin tcilc:J ~/ou the Court
3 ~re
.<J i 1 1 instruct you predictions not opinions .
4 I do not th i nK the C:our-t t.cli 11 tel 1 you tr1at. I think

5 the c:ciurt 1,•.Jill te.11 yc1u c1pinions .;i.re not libeli::ius., t 1ut not
6 that opinions are predictions, you have to subtle about this,

7 =i.11 predictic)n·=. a.re not .just c1pinions5 Sometimes they imply a

10 Is that a prediction?

If the quest i c n is 1 t1Ji 11 she deliver· the bat:1y tomorro1,\l

12
cir the day· 2.fter torncrr·r·cli.,..;, rna>-~be it is, but ~.upposing m>'

13 daughter is not pregnant. Supp1::is.e ·=.he i =· not pregnant and the

14 statement ls made she will deliver a baby tomorrow at a
15 certain place and a certain time. This is an underlying
16

17
is not in that ~ase, does not ha~pen to be t~u~ or· taklng it~a
18 1 ittle further, I have no daughter.
19 Supposing I have no daughter and the statement is

20 m.=..d2 Bi 11 Sny,jer·_,.s daughter 1.1-Ji 11 deliver· her· baby tcirnor·rctW at

21 St. Joseph's Hospital. That is another- under-lying e.ssumption

22 of f.~ct that i:. no.t tr-ue. This article is filled with those,

23 and none of the pr-edict i cins e 1.}er· came tcr pass.

24 ''(ou c2.n dr·arfi.t )'()IJP Cll,o.Jn conclusion, ·t:iut a le.rt of them
25 are a lot more than predictions. They are -predictions t~at

'.._ ...
 130

i
irnpl/' st~ternent-=- of fact, fAJr ex.;-.mple, remernber thio;:., yc1u

2 heard again and agaln and we took i t from Victbr Marchetti

3 nc1 t thi·5 p-3.ra.gr·a.ph, the FBI t<Ji 1;1 publ ic1>' embrace the l;Jarren

4 C:crIT1rni-::.si on, the thecrr), a.11,93_y-;;. pr-i ~;a. tel}' kncrV.Jn, there 1,1._1ere

5 three gunrnen.~ d.nd tha.t is -3. statement of fact th-3.t the;.'

6 privately knew there were three gunmen.

7 Als.o it a.pplie·,; to a lot of other things, but the FBI

B is telling the public c1 ne thi.n1;i ani::J belie•.Jini;i a.neither thin<;!:

9. and tha.t is absur·d. Th-3.t is not an opinion. That i·;; an

10 -3.·:=.·:::.ertion that s.crrnethin1;i. i-::. -;.aid~ and e 1.)en if they .publ is.h

11 everything Marchetti had given them without any change,

12 ,\Jithout an>' headline-::., I third< the C:ourt 1•.-..1ill instruct ;-'C'IU

13 free publ i C-3.t ion c1f a. lie dc1e·;;. not excu·3e it.
14 You heard Mr. Lane say ~verybody picked this ·up.

15 ElJer·yt,od>' 1.J.J.~v=- picl<ing up this ·=:.tor·y. !,.Je11 ~that is ncit quite

16 tr-ue either-.

17 the AP

18 iakes the story available to such of its members, subscribers

19 as may want to publish i t . Ther~ h~s been no testimony in

20 this case about 1.J..Jt-J1?ther custorr1ers in either cities did~ in·

21 fact, pick it up off the AP ivire, mel'e]y it was on the AP

22 ,vire.

23 Another reason for talking about George Trento, I

24 think is to. tl'Y to s.;;.;' oJhy sue us 1 i ttle gu;.'s, Spotlight. Go

25 after the big.

''.'-i.,.
·..
;
 1 31

(" _·
•Ladies and ge~tlem~n, there is no duty on anybody to

I-f- thre--e peciple m.~~~e a fal-::.e a.ccus.~tion about

...:.:. 3 ;r·ou and it i·;:;. the -;:;..~me fa.lse a~cu-s.:..tic1n, you can ·sue one of
'."'
4 them or two of them or all of them, and unless you are made ~f

5
money, you do not have to and you are not required to sue.
6

7
A 1 ·3c1 , i"-1r . Hunt test i f i e d he di d not I< n 01;J th i s 1 i t t 1 e
8
- l paper_ in_klilrnington_l}-~.1~ pub1i?_he1j thi-::. thing fcrr- the AF', rn.~de

9
i t au a i l .3.b 1 e. E 1.Jen i f he did,
10
Spot 1 i gh t i s · not such a.. 1 i t t 1 e gu :Y after a. l 1 .
11
It has a circulation of 300,000 for a Journal
12
c1pinion in this country i·;:;. prett~,,. good, 300,000, that is.
13
pr·.1:= t t/' gcrod.
14
The ·sci-c.~11ed l i t t l e bu·:::.ine-::.s e-~.rned ·;t.S t"1i 11 ic1n ih

15

16 av.=..ilable, the;~ rna,je -=i. $1.7 t--1i11 ion gr·os·;;. -profit in 1'7'83.
~
:·.1 $ -
l • :3 Mi 1 1 i on in gross assets on:~he1r balance she~t.
18
That i ·;. a 1 i t t 1 e, and VJhi-le I.Me a.re on that sub._iect I r,.J.;.:.n t tc'
19 of the deferred principles
ta 1 l< to }'OU a.bou i: cvha t the rnen ti c1n

20 11.Jere ~

21 -..(c1u VJi 11 see a 1-ruge entry on the· 1iabi1 it)-' ::.i 1je of-
22 the Liberty Lobb>~ sheet s-:1_)-~i n·~ preferred $2 t-1i 11 ion, a.nd 1 et
<·
23 us say there are fifty-two weeks in the year, and the price of
24
the thing was $52, it i::. not, but this is-an illustration~

25 supposing one week, the first week~of Jan~~ry has an elapse

i ..
 132

a.nd Libe!i't)-' Lobby is ·$.52 fr··Orn the cu·3i:orner, J..iJhat the

2 .3.ccountant doe·31,~Ji...th th-at i·:::. to sa/' all right, L.iJe t.~Ji11 put the

3 ·$52 on the cash a-::.se t·:::. side crf (the 1 ecfi;ier·, on the l i ab i 1 i ty

4 s.ide. 1,oJe ,,..Jill put ·.$-51 deferr·ecl subscription, me.:i.ning if

5 Liberty Lobby exists they will have to be able to provide

6 f i ft:-/·-one rncir·e issue-::. for- th.Er.t custc1rr1er for the re·:::.t of the

7 )''ea.r·, .Er.nd th.a:.t is t.h.e ccrncept of cr-ea.t i ng 2. reserve for tha.t

). 8 $.51. The ·$52 on the a.sset ·;:.ide of the ledger· is -::.till there.

9 It is st i 11 there, had not gone an~,...1. ~.1here, :s-.nd they .jo, in

10 ·er.ct, ha.ve the ·$-52.

11 As you have seen here, Libel trials are a one-way

12 street, noting about Liberty Lobby's character or their

13 politics i-:. adrni:::.s.ible intci e\,1j1jence.

14 I cannot tell you what they stand fora I t i ,',.

15 cc1n·;:.idered ncit r·elevant to the is..3ues- in.this. ca.se, 1..\Jhich is

16 this art i cl e . By contrast and, as a matter of fact~ Mr. Lane

17 tcild you he h2...::. ~Jri tten eight bcioks at1c1ut the l<enned>~
18 assassination, appeared in a lot of press and TV. I could not
19 tell you about that, what the opposition is, lawyers, what

20 they do is considered .ci.1so not reletJa. nt to the issues in this

21 cas.e only bec-8.use he veil unte-er·ed thern and onl }" because he
22 Cross E:::-.~2.mi ni?d .tJ.Ji tnesses. about th2.t bcrol< or those eight books

24 The Plaintiff, on the other hand, comes into a Libel

25 _.3.se ~ knov.J::. that he is going t,o have to be exposed for a 11 the
 ':J,...,
1 ._, .:J

~orld to.see everything he .has ever done since the date of his
2 tiirth, .;c.r11j th3.t is._t.. .ihat_/'C•U ha.t.J~ ~.een her·e*
3
I helped to select you as a Jury, when I did, I asKed
4
you questions and asked you to make a promise to me.
5
say would the fact that Mr* Hunt worked for Nixon's Wh.ite
6
House and did things for--see the things for 1t, would that
7 prevent you from givfng him a substantial verdict lf you
8
thought he 1,tJa~. . iu-::.tifiecl on the f.;c.ct-=. of the ca-:::.e'?

9
You also know that would_ not preve~t ~e, and I ask
10
you whether the fact that he had pleaded guilty to-the
11
~atergate, had actually served time in prison across this
12 country, would that prevent you from being fair and you all
13 sai ,j no~ i t would not prevent you from being fa1r to him.
14 I v.Jc•uld like tc1 hcilcl )_..C•JJ tc' that. prorni·=:.e, ladie·;. and
15 1;:en t 1 ernen. You had made that promise to me.
16
promise to you to be fair and square and t~l.1 you the truth,
17 --
an j
1 that i ·3 as 9c:Jc1d and µ_1e11 a·;. the bad, about .Hov..13.r-d Hunt. .... _
18
Mr. Lane had a lot to say about Mr. Marchetti and how
19
he was a hero for cracking open this and cracking open that
20 and not fearing to do that.
21 The facts are Just simply dffferent. Th i s is a rrran

22 who was taken to Court, not in front of the Director of the

23 CIA, but into a c:ourt of .Jus.t ice, a. c:c1urt of Lai..~;, Feder·al
24
Court in Washington, D.C., Alexandria,. Virginia, and the trial
25 was fought out, over whether he had, in fa.ct, leaked

r":t~,
'--
 i34

cl~v;;sifi_td inforrn-3.tion a.nd_,·3.fter a length>' trial the .Jud•;re

2 decided h~ had, and i t was an Appeal and he has been

3 permanently enjoined from leaK~no classified information

' -
4 .J.Ji thout getting clea.r·ance. That doe·::. not rriea.n the C::IA 1Ni 11

s a-.1 i~t.zays 1..•.J in • It means that they have the right to challenge

6 him. You have thirty days to challenge him.

7 On the subject of Victor Marchetti/s bias, look at

I
I.

9 long and hard not all ·as ethically to.df~couraqe

. -
the
... wrltino
-
10 of his book ar11j pr.,?1.,.tent it·:=. putilic.3.tion.

12 a. re·::.pon·::.i bl e publ i-::.her·, 1,~1c•ul d 1 i Ke to purchase .=-, ~.tory'? I

13 think not.

14 belie1.,1e )"'C11J he.3.rcl 2. lot about l"'lr. Hunt, ar11j1A1h.at .3.n

I dc1 not think he 1 ied to you here

16 today or this week or 1 led to anybody since before he came

17 cle.3:.n in the Fa.1-1 c1f 1'7'74I

18 You may have gotten the figures garbled fn the [ncome

19 tax returns. He used the phrase earned instead of income~ and

20 one cc•nclude-::. a c:IA .3.nnui ty~ one does. not, tiut the f.;.ct

21 ema.ins"tha.t e 1,1en i f you look at his gross inco·me, it"s been

22 dctr,tJn, cfolJ.Jn~ do1,vn; "77 he lAl.3.S ea.r·nin1;i ·$78~0QOI In 1978,, he

23 _oes do1;.1n tc• $48 1 000. I think in '7? it is down to $20,000.

24 He never made in recent years as much as he made in 1977.

25 .<lhy?

{ . ~
 135.

r··
'"-· <
Why had he not made
A
it? I cannot prove it beyond a

2 reasonable doubt.

3 successfully fifty-six book up .to the time this article was

I

4 publ i-::.hed, never had the sl i·;ihte·:::.t trc1uble getting the boo~~s

5 publ ic1>' from reputable people, a-.nd alcrr1g comes the ar·ticle

6 a.ncf the fir·st t1oc1~~, tha.t is ncit sc1, thi-::. prisio journ.3.l, he

7 would write, he was told that it fs too heavy for the general

9 publica.tions?

10 Why were they not--why didn't they buy his writing,

12 of hi-::. 1,9ritin1;r cleterii:)r.3:.terj, anij Chichat says nc1, i t ' s ver)"'

13 gocrd qua l it>~ f,\lr i t i ng.

14 He .3.l ·:::.i::r s.=i.i ,j th.3:.t. not rn.3.ny pub1 i -::.her·::. f..\Ji l l te 11 )"'OU

15 r,\Jhy the}~ turn -=:.1Jrnebod>' dot.tJn. They .ju·:::.t do it.

16 I suspect what could have been happening here is you

17 do not ZJ.Ja.nt to ~ign up !/Ji th S1Jrr1ebod)"' t.\lho·i·;;·, in f·act, tt-re

You do not want to sign

19 a. contract r.Mith a.n incii 1 1

v idual an•j find out he is that the next

20 da)"', and they did not--the>' st.3'./'ed awa/' frc1rr1 him.

21 I think, ladies and gentlemen, that someth}ng has got

23 of any of these crlmes, do you think he would possibly be

24 bringing Libel suits? He did not bring any Libel suits

25
against.people, Washington·Post, New York Times that accused

h irn of J.?.ter-1,;iate_._
r_...

He knew he pleaded g~ilty and the archives that were

brought down, he testified to every false thing he ever said,

but when i t comes to accusations that he has killed President

Kennedy, he has sued the National Tattler, won a,default.

judgment against them. He sued Weberman and the Weberman

suit was still pending when this article was written, and he

sued this p.3.per. He needs some vindication. He nE-eds to

have this put behind him.

The tabloid press responds tci the ver-dict Jury in

Libel c-3.::.e, it is tirne to sefid thern a. mes·::.age and let u·:=. t.?.!<e

the Hunt family off of this Cross. Thank you very much.

THE COURT: l,<)e w i 1 l be l n recess, It is 1 : 25. l<le

1,..Jj 11 be in reces.s unti 1 2~:30~ 1,..Je 1,»Ji 11 ta~~e an hcrur .a_nd three

or· fciur· minutes.

:=:ame ins.tr-ucti(:ins 1.:Jill tie .3.ppl icab1e at this pc•int

because lt still remains for me to charge you with reference

to the law. Dci not 1ji·=.cus-=:. the c.3.se among }~our-=:.elr...1 es or

certainly not permit anybody to discuss ft with you.

All of th~ instructions I have given .YOU would be

applicable. Any additional requested charges from the

Government?

MR. SNYDER: No.

THE COURT: From the Defendant.

(
MR. LAl'1E: No. .•
•
2 THE COURT: We will be in recess until 2:30.

3 <Thereupon the Jury was removed from the Jury box and a
•
4 lunch recess was taken.)

5 MR. LANE: Your Honor, we move for mistrial on the

6 grounds that Mr. 'Snyder made a false statement in the Closing

7 Argument which ls material and goes to the heart of the case.

8 The a.uthor of the article is ~'1r. 1"'1.3.rchetti. He sa. id there

\.
9

10
. -
classified information. That 1s a charge of Mr. Marchetti

11 ccrrnrni tted 2. er irne ~ th.:;..t he h-3.·;; the- dc curnent·::. .=-..nd

1 it i -=·

12 ncithing crf th.;.t na.tur·e 2.t 2.11 invc lved.

1

13 It was a question whether or not he would be given

14 permissi-on to publish when he was not, he did not leak the

15

16 Based upon that deliberate false.:statement made by

17 Mr. Snyder abo~t the author of the articl~, wh·ich i~ the

18 subject of the lai,\l:=.ui t, I rr1Crt,1e fc1r rrii-=.tr·i.3.l

19 THE COURT: It is the Judgment of this Court the

20 Jury will obey the Court/s instructions ~nd will not pay:

21 attention to anything that you a~torneys have said as

22 constituting any evidence in this case. They wlll base their

23 verdict upon the evidence and the testimony of the documents.

24 Your motion will be denied.

25 We will be in recess until 2:30.

 1 ':•C•
vV

.
(Ther·eupon .~ a. reces·::. VJ.~as taken.)

THE COURT: I intend to give the Jury the exact copy

2

3
of the ch-2.rge 1,vh i ch I arn abou ti to· 1.;i i 1...ie therrr ~ to ta~~e to the

Jur·}' r·ocirrr. Any objection to be noted by the Plaintiff?

4

5 MR. SNYDEF'.: I pr·efer not to, Your Hon or·.

THE COURT: 1]b.j ec ti ,:in noted .3.n d Cr 1•..ierru1 ed.

6

MR. LAb!E: l.Je h.~ 1.,1e f!CJ ob.j ect i 1:in.

7

<Thereupon, the Jury entered the Jury box.)

8

THE CIJURT: Lad.ies .and gentlemen of the Jury, before

9

11 ._i1:iin 1,tJith Counsel in th.~rd<ing }'OU fc1r your careful a.ttention

12 that you paid to the evidence, to the Closing Arguments of

Counsel. You have been very attentive and we are apprecative

,··.
13

14 of. that.

15
The second thing I want to mentfon is neither by

these instruct i crn·3 nor b}' any ruling or r·em.;.rk haue I, do I

16
.,' 17
or have I mean~ to indicate any opinion that I may have as to

18 the facts in this case.

~~JoiJ.J that ye.cu h-3.Ve hear,j al 1 the ev i de nee and the

19

20 arguments C•f C:c1Uf1SJ? l , j t bi?COIT1E'S my duty to 9 j .,.1e

1
/'OU the. :.,-

21 in~.tructions C1f the ['.ourt coi:-i-cerning the lat.•J appl ic.3.b1e to

22

It is }'our· dut:r' as .Jurors to f1:illo1,\1 the la1,\J as I

23
., to ;.'o:u, and tc1 app1 /' that 1 aw to the facts as
.. 24 shal 1 state it

25 you find them from the evidence in the case.

 ,_,.-:"~,

~ . '-.~
·- single put one instructio~·alone as stating the law~ but must

2 Neither are you to be

3 concerned· 1,·Ji th the l)Ji-::.dorn of of l al)J as stated

4 Regardless of any opinion you may have as to what

5 the la1;J is or ought to be 1 i t (-'-JCruld tie .3_ 1.Jiolation of /'Our

6 Si,tJor·n dut;r' t•J tra·::.e -3. .Jer1jict upon an>' '.Jier;J crf
1 the 1.3..J,\J other·

7 tha.n th-3.t giuen in the instructions of the Court~ just as it

8 1;Jou1d alsi::i be a. i...1 iola.tic1n c1f yciur- ·31;Jc1r-n duty as ._iudges crf the

9 facts, to base a. ver1ji ct upon -3.n)'th i ng other th-3.n the

10 e~; i dence in. the case.

IQ
11 ·rn deciding the facts of this case, you must not be
·. swayed by bias or prejudice or favor as to any party. Our
12

14 pre.jurjice or· ·:.::r'rnp-3.th>' err· public opinion. Both the p.3.r·tie5

15 a.nd the pul:::1l ic expect that >"OU 1;.;i 11 carefully -3.nd irnpar-tial 1}'

16 consider a.11 of the e 1.,iicfence in the c.3.se, .fo1101;J the la1,•J as

17 stated by the Sourt, and reach a just ver&ict-regardless-of-

18 the consequences.

19 This case should be consid~red and decided by you as

20 an a-.ction betvJeen persons of equa.1 5ta.nding in the comrnuf!it>',

21 and holding the same or similar stations Jn 1 ife. A

22 ccirpc•r-3..tiiJn is entitled to the same fair trial at your ha.rrds

23 as is a private .[~dividual The law is no respecter of

24 persons, and al 1 persons, including corpor-3.t ions, stand equal

--:.
25

(~~----
.
• .__;..
 140

....
I
before Jhe law and are to .. be dealt with as equals in a Court

2 c1f ,Justice.

3 l1Jheri a cor·poration i~- int,rol 1Jed, of course~ i t rn.3.>'

4 act only through natural persons as its agents or employees;

5 .3.nd, in general, 2.ny .=r..g~nt err· erriplo;.,.ee of a corporaticrn rrra>'

6 bind the corporation by his acts and declarations mad~ while

7 acting within the scope of his authority delegated to him bv

8 the corporation, or within the scope of his duties as an

9 employee.of -the corpo~ation.

10 As. ~-t-3.ted ear·l ier·, it is >~c1ur dut::r· to determine the

...," 11 fact.s, and in so doing, you must consider only the ev[dence I

12 have admitted ln the case. The term evidence includes the

13 sworn testimony of the witnesses and the exhibits admitted in

14 the r·ecor·d.

15 Remember that any statements,. objections of

16 arguments made by the lawyers are not evl·dence in the case.

-~
i 17 The function of the lawyers ·1s to point out those thin.gs that

. 18 are most significant or most helpful to their side of the

19 case, and in so doing, to call your attentfon to certain

20 facts or inferences that might otherwise escape your notice.

21 In .the fin.3..l -3.nal/'sis,. hor,•.Je•.,1er} it is your own

22 recollection and interpretation of the evidence that controls

23 J/Jhat the lat.\J)'er··s s.ay is not binding upon }'ou.

24 So while you should consider only the evidence in

25 the case,, you are permitted to drar,r..J such reasonable

 141

(
. .' •·
i nferenfe-=:. frcirr1 the test irncin}' 2.nd e~<h i bi t·3 as :-/oU feel are

2 .ju·=:.tified in the __l i9ht_of cc1mrnc1n experienc\? . . In other VJC1rds~

3 you may make deductions and r~ach conclusions which reason

4 and co-rnrnc1n -=:.ense 1 ead }'O!J to dr·.::rJ.•.J frcrrri the facts r,..Jh i ch ha.Ve

5 been estatfl i shed by the test irnony a.nd eV i de nee j n the C-3.. Se r

7 e 1.) i de nee. This does not mean, however, that you must accept

8 all of the evidence as true and accurate.

9 You are the sold judges of the credi~·il ity or

10 be 1 i evati i 1 i ty of each v.1 i tne·:;.s. ani::) the .1...re i gh t

1• to be •;r i ~;en tc•

11 hi·3 tes.timon/'. In wei~hing the testimony of a witness you

12 should consider his re1ationshlp to the Plaintiff or to the

13 C1 efend.~.nt; his interest~ if -3..n>~~ in the outcome of the case;

: .. '
14 his manner of testifying; hls opportunity to observe or

15 acquire knowledge concerning the facts about which he

16 testlfled; his candor, fairness and intel-1 igence; and the

17 extent to whic~ he has been supported or·;conJradlcte~ by:~

18 other credible evidence. You.may, in short, accept or reject

19 the testimony of any witness in whole or· in part.

20 Also, the weight of the evidence is not necessarily

21 determined by the number of witnesses te~tify.ing as to the

22 existence or non-existence of any facts. You may find that

23 the te=:.timon/' crf a =:.rr1al ler number crf 1,vi triesse-3 -3.S to an)'· fact

24 is more credible than the testimony of ~-·larger number of

25 witnesses to the contrary.

I -
 142

,,·
! •,-. Now, a witness ma~ be discredited or
•
2

3 falsel)' concerning a ma.terial fmatter,. or b>' e•Jidence tha.t -~.t

4 s.c1rne other ti rne the i;J i tnes.·::;:. had said or· done sorne thing, or·

5 has failed to say or do something, which is inconsistent with

6 the witness' present testimony.

7 If you believe that any witness has been so

8 impeached, then it is your exclus·ive province to give the

9 testimciny of that .iitness' credibility or tJ.Jeight,

1,.•. i f a.n}'~ .3..s.

10 you may think it deserves.

11 The fact that a witness had previously been

:.;

I. 12 convicted of a felony, or a crime involving dishonesty or

13 f .3. l s.e ·::;:. t .3. t erne n t ·3, i s. 2.1 ·::::.•:i 2. f 2.c t cir )'OU m.=t.)' c c1n s i de r in

14 weighing the credlbil i.tY of that witnesss The fact of such a

15 convlction does not necessarily destroy the witness'

16 credlbil ity, but is one of the circumstances you may take

17 into account i~ determining the weight to be given to his

18

19 t"-Jci1,~1.,. tt-ie burden i·:::. on the F'laintiff in a ci~,1 il

20 action such as this to prove every essential element of ·his

21 claim by a preponderance of the evidence. However) keep in

22 mind that I shall specially instruct you later concerning one

23 element of this Plalntlff/s special claim, which must be

24 proved by clear and convincing evidence. A preponderance of

25 the evidence means such evidence as 1 whe~ considered and

I
\
 143

corripar·e~ '-'Ji th that opposed- to it, has more convincing fcirce

2 a.nd pr·oduce=. in y_ciur- mJn1j a'tie1ief th.?.t 1,~1h2.t is scruc1ht to be

3 proved i ·::. rnore l i kel ~/ tr·ue th.in not true.

4 est.3.bl i ·::.h a cl airrr b>' pr·eponderance of the ev i de nee rner·el /'

5 means to prove that the claim is more 1 iKely so than not so.
6 In determining whether any fact ln issue has been

7 proved by a preponderance of the evidence~ the Jury may

8 C(J.n·:::ider th·e tes:.tirnon::r' of al 1 the t~Ji tne·sses) regardl es·:; of

9 J;.Jho rna./' ha.ve ca1leij thein, a.nd a-.11 the exhibit·;; r·ec.ei\.1ed in

10 evidence, regardless of who may have produced them. If the

11 proof should fa.il to estatil i-:-h -?.ny e·::.·.;;entia.l element of

12 Plaintiff/s claim by a preponderance of the evidence, the

13 Jury should find for the Defendant as to that claim.

14 The F.'l-3..intiff h-3..·3 fi1ed -=-uit seeking actual anci
15 punitive darri-3.ges c1n .:;r.cccHJnt crf an a1leged~Libe1 a.nd
16 Def.::r.rr1.3.tion, in the forrn of -3. ne1;J·=-paper ar"ticle published tr>'

17 these Defendanfs of and concerning him.

18 A Libel is -3. fal·:.e and rn-3..l icir::i.u·;; def-3.rnation of a

19 person by printing or writing, tending to provoke him to

20 rJJr.3..th ctr to expcise h irn tc' pub1 i c h.atredj ·Co.nternpt or·
21 ridicule, or to deprive him c1-f the benefi··ts c•f public
22 ccinfidence and ·=-c,cial intercour·sei
23
The issue for your determination on the claim of the
24
Plaintiff, E. Howaf'd Hunt ag."<inst the Defendant, Libef'ty
25
Lobby a!'e:
 144

• A. Whether the D~fendant, Liberty Lobby published

in its ne1. . Jspa.per-t- the -5p0t1 i1;-iht~ f.3.ctu-3.1 rn.~tter· .a.s

distinguished from opinion co~cerning the Plaintiff, Mr.

Hunt, as Plaintiff, Mr. Hunt, so contends and i f so,

8. 1.-.Jhether the publ ic2.tion of Defend-3.nt, Liber·ty

Lottb;.~, in the Spc1tl ight of fact~. ccincer·ning the F'12.intiff 1

Mr. Hunt, was false or not substantially correct and tended

to expose Mr. Hunt to hatred, ridicule or contempt or tended

to injure Mr. Hunt in his business of. occupation or falsely

char·i;tf.'d tha.t t·~1r. Hunt cornrni tted a crirne 2.nd, i f ·;:.ci,

C. !JJhe th er· Defendant, Liberty Lobby, 1;.Jas rr1a 1 i c i ou·=.

in publi·::.hir11;i the false rrr-3.tter· cc1rr1pla.ined of.

If the preponderance of the evidence does not

suppor-t the c1.3.irn of Plaintiff, t...ir. Hunt, or- if the·;g 1.,1i,jence

does not show clearly and convincingly that Defendant,

Liberty Lobby, published the matter complained of

ma.1 iciously, th.en ~/ct1Jr 1.,.1er·1jict ·3hc1uld be for- the Defendant,

Li ber·ty Lobby. However, if the preponder-ance of the evidence

does support the clairn of Pl-=i:.intiff, t·'1r. Huntj and shc:ii,vs

clearly and convincingly that Defendant, Liberty Lobby acted

mal iciously 1 your verdict should be for the Plaintiff, Mr.

Hunt.

Now, the Plaintiff/s claim consists of six essential

elements, as follows:
 145

• FIF;ST, that the Defendant publishedc,Jritteri

3 SECOND, that the written statements constl tuted

4 Libel and that term ls defined for you in these instructions;

5 THIRC1, tha.t the putil i cat i 1:in 1,~_1.3_·;:. cif and conc·ern i nr;s

6 the Plaintiff;

7 FCrLIRTH, that the put:il i cation 1;Jas 'Communicated to

8 third persons;
9 FIFTH} that the publ ic.3..tiCrn v.1as fa.1·se in -::.orne

10 material particulars; and

11 SI)<TH, tha.t the VJr·i tten st.3..ternent-::. 1J.Jere puf:1l i·=.he1j

12 1A1ith actua.1 rna.lice, a~. that ter·rn i·=- e>::pla.ined in these

13 in·;;tr·ucticins.

14 The burden ·is on the Plaintiff· to prove the first

15 five of these elements by a preponderance 6f the evidence~

16 The burden is stricter with regard to the sixth

,.! 17 element~ the eiernent of actU-3.l ma1ice. The Plaintiff ha.s tf1e·
'<
18 burden of establishing by cl~ar and convincing evidence that
19 the publication was made with actual malice~

20 Clear and convincing evidence is evidence that·~

21 produces a firm belief and conviction.

22 If yc1u find that the Plaint i"ff has es.tabl i shed these

23 six elements by the standards here explained you may find for
24 the Plaintiff. If you find that he ha;o. f3.iled to establish

25 any element then .it is your duty to find for the Defendant.
 146
.. .-~···

/.
\ As has been said,~the burden of proof of each
•
2 el ernent i-;;. cin th.e_ Pl aLnt i f f . The Defendant is not obliged to

3 call any witnesses or to introduce any evidence.

4 Now, an act of an employee or agent, to become the

5 act of Liberty Lobby, Inc., must be performed by the employee

6 J..\Jhile actin1;i with the -;;.cope of hi~. ernplo;.'ment.

7 The Court charges you as a matter of law that before

B any acts or knowledge of Will is Carta or James P. Tucker may

9 be ·imputed to the Defendant, Liberty Lobby, Inc., Plaintiff

10 must prove by preponderance of the evidence that·the

11 Defendant had actual Knowledge of those acts and inf6rmatlon

12 or th.3.t c:.3.rto anij Tuc~~er 1,.~1ere .;.cting 1,\Ji thin the scc1pe of

13 their empl Cr/'rnent v.Jhen the>' perforrned the acts of acquired the

14 i nfor·rr1.=i.t i crn.

15

16 one else fs on trial A corporation may, of course, act only

17 through naturaT persons as its employees and agents. A

18 corporation is therefore held respon=.ible for the acts of its

19 employees and agents while those persons are acting within

21 A corporation is not responsible, however, for

22 t.<Jrongdo i ngs ccrmrn i t ted b)' independent con tr.:i..c tors. The

23 F'laintiff in thi·::. ca~.e has ccinceded th.:i..t t"lr~ l.)ictor

24 Marchetti, the author of the article, was not an employee or

'·:
25 agent of Liqerty Lobby, Inc. Mr. Marchetti was, as a matter

\··-.
 147

of la.1,•.,1}_.,an in.:fependent cc1n.fr.;i.ctor·, 2. freelance t.·Jri ter. E 1.,1 en

mean to imply or deny, that wryongdoing cannot be imputed to

I in·:?tr·uct

you as a matter of law that even i f Mr. Hunt has proved that

f'1r. f'"1archetti r,tJrcite hi·3 a.r·tic.le 1,tJith -3.ctua.l rn.3.lice and

libelled Mr. Hunte, you may not find Liberty Lobby, Inc.,

guilty of Libel unless you also find that ~ibe~~y Lobby,

through its cir,tJn e~plo~.~ees and agen.t·;:;.:i- published· the m.c..terial

knowing that i t was false or with serious doubts as to lts

truth.

Under our law a person's good reputation is held in

high regard, and when i t is falsely attacked, the law gives

him the opportunity tb'bring a Libe_J action to recover

damages. When the Plaintiff is a public ~igure, and the

c:ourt not,\J instruct-::. >'ou th-3..t F'lainti-ff E.: Ho~\Ja-.r·d Hunt,

..
', Junior, i -:;. .;._ figure, and the 2.lleg-ed Libel rel -3. tes·

his conduct, then the Plaintiff must bea( an additional

requirement a.nd must 2st.;i.bl ish b}' clea-.r and convincing

euidence tha-.t the al le•;ied Libel r;.Jas put::i1 i-shed r,<Ji th actual_

rn.a.l ice.

t---~c!l,\l-,_ -3'. publ ic-~tion is ma.• je i;.Ji th -3.ctual malice a.s

that term is used in this charge if i t is. made with knowledge

that i t is false, or with reckless disregard or whether it is

fa.1se of not.
(,_ - .J
.., Rec~~les.·:;nes.s irnpl~ies a. higher degree of culpc.bi1it/'

2 than neg1 i i;ience ~-- A fd:-i 1 ure to ex ere i ·5e or· di na.r/' err

3 r-e-3.so-nable ca.re is .::i.scer·ta.inil1 ;i 1 the tr-uth of published

5 in d2.m2.ges fcrr _[Jef2.rr1a.tion of a.public offici2.l or public

6 figure.

7 In or-der· tci es.tabli:=.h r-eckle=:.·:.ness~ the Plaintiff

8 must prove that the Defendant had a high degree of awareness

I-
9 of the probable_falsity af the statemen·tS published.

10 I fur the r i n =·tr· u c t ~·'c:iu that 2.c tu a. l ma 1 i c e refers to

11 the rnent.3.l state of th·e publis-her~ Litierty Lobb/', Inc.~ 1,•Jith

1·2 respect to the truthfulness of th~ alleged defamatory

,····. 13 material; proof of such a mental state may be inferred from

!-· '"
14 circumstances ~Ad any direct .. or indirect evidence relevant to

15 the =·ta.te. crf rr1ir11j of the publisher.

16 t,Jow, in determin'i'ng t.l.ihether the Defendant acted 1,1.;ith

17 actual mal ice,-you should consider the circumstances under

18 1,r.Jhich the a.r-tic1e i·3 pub1 i·3hed, inclu1jing the· publ isher"'s

19 Knor,l;l ed1;ie of the ·a.uthor·"'·3 r·eputat ion. If youu deteremine

20 tha.t the publisher actu."11 y bel i e>.;e that the material

21 contained in the article was dependable and truthful, there

22 is not .:1.ctua1 malice.

23

24 by the Defendant to investigate, to talk with the Plaintiff

25 befc•ri? publ i-::.h.ing the .3.rticle~ or tcr clarify the informa.tion

l\"
(
'c.··-·
cont2.in~1j in the ar·ticle i,;.;. insufficient to e·;;t2.bl i-::.h that

failure to retract the artic1_~ is insuff·icient to prove

.3.c tu a 1 rn.~.1 ice ~

I instruct you that repetitJon of another/swords

does ncit r·e1 ea.se one of re-::.ponsi bi 1 it)-' if the repe2.ter kno1;.Js

that the words are false, or inherently improbable, or there

are obvious reasons to doubt the veracity of the person

quoted or the accuracy of his repofts.

One cannot fairly argue his good faith or avoid

liability tr}' clai'rning that he i-=:. rel;.'ing on the r·epcrrt'=· of

another l f the latter's statements or observations are

altered or taKen out of context.

i'~o~.·.J, j-f )-'OU find for Liberty Lobb;..', Inc., )-'OU IJJ i Il

not consider· the arnount of 1j.3..mage·=·~ but, if yi::iu find fcir E.

Ho1,,\1.:i.rd Hunt, Junic1r, )-'OU should av.Jard Hcr1;.Jard Hunt a-.n .::trnount

of money that the greater weight of the ~0i~~nce shows will~

fa.i rl )"' a.n1j adequs-.tel >' co-rnpen-=:.2.te Hor,vard HOnt for such da.mage-=:.

as the greater weight of the evidence shows was caused by the

publ icatic1n complaineij of. A publ ic.3.tion is a. cau:=.e cJf

dam.~ge if it dir·ect17~ -3..nd in natura.1 and·continuous :;.equence

produces of contributes substantially to producing such

darnag-e. If you find for Howard Hunt, you shall consider the

following elements of damages:

 .. 150

•Any injury to repdtation or health and any shame,

hurni 1 i.3.ticin, rnen.t..al -?.n..guis.h .;-_n,j .3_n}' hur·t feeling·=. experiencec:l

in the past. There is no exaqt standard for fixing the

cc1rr1pensation to tie .3,1..\!ar-ded on .;r.ccount crf such .e1ernent-::. cif

d2.rn2.9es.• Any .a.1J.J.3_rd s.hou1d be fair and .just in the 1 ight of

the ev i de nee.

Any earnings lost in the past.

And an/' 1 oss. c1f at1 i 1 it/' to ea-.rn mone;-' sustained" in

the p<i.st.

punishment and as a deterrent to others. I f >'ou find that

punitive damages should be assessed against Liberty Lobby,

~ou may consi_~er the financial resources of Llberty Lobb~ in

fixing the amount of such damages.

In adcl-i ti cin tc' al.t.Jardi n1~ ccrrr1pens.ator}' damages tc1 a

Plaintiff, a J1jr;..~ rfl.3.Y, in scime ca·~e·~, a~var-d punitive darnages •

•
.

The pur-po·;;e of punitive darr1a1;ies is to punish the Defendant}

and make him an example so as to deter others as to similar

con duet.

If you find that. the Plaintiff has proved that the

Defend..:i.nt publ isherj factual statement·~ concerning the

Plaintiff which the Defendant either knew were false, or

pub! ished with reckeless disregard as to whether the

statements wer-e true of false, then you may go on to consider

.,.
 .151

whethe~ to award punitlve·~amages against Liberty Lobby. In

2 crr·der· tcr a,1,\1.~1.r·d p-1..J.nitir.J-e damage-:., >"'CrU·rnust .3.ls.o finij etJer·>"

3 Defenc:iant acteij 1;.Jith ill v.;i11; hostilit:-/ or· an evil intention

4 to i n.J ur·e an1j def.::i..rne E. Hov..Jar-d Hunt. In determining whether

5 such ill TJ.Jill~ hcrstilit~< or e Jil1

intent e~<isted, you may

6 ccins i der· trot!-1 the cha.r·a-.c tt?r cif the put:tl i ca.ti on i tse 1 f, · and

7 evidence introduced at trial concerning the Defendant's

8 feelings. tc:iv..rard the F'laintiff.

9 You are instructed that any person who claim~

10 damages as a result of an alleged wrongful act on the p·art of

11 .3.nother ha.:. -3.s dut;1 under· the lar,\J tci rni tiga.te those 1jam.2.ge;:.,

12 that is, to take advantage of any reasonable opportunity he

13 may h.=..~,ie h.3.d uncler the c i rcumst.2.nce·s to reduce or rn in i mi ze

14 the loss or damagea

15 Let me digress to say to you that it is my Judgment
16 that some of the instructions I have ·giveh you are rather
17 complex a~d I ~ill give you an exact cop~? of -this charge sb
'!
18 you rn.3.;:.-~ ·at ;-~our· l'eisur·e stud>,. the la..1..~J th.3."t I arr1 gi 1...iing to >~ou

19 or 3. l l y.

20 Of course, the fact that I have given you

21 instructions·concerning the issue of Plaintiff/s damages

22 should not be interpretetj in any way as an indicatin that I
23 believe the Pl.=:i.intiff ·:.hould :ir· should ncit, pr·evail 1 in this
24 ca-:.e.

..... 25

' .
'
( .)
must~~epresent
• You verdict the considered Judgment

2 erf ea.ch .Jur·c1r·. ln cirder· tc1 r-eturn a ver·di ct .• it i ·:. neces·:;..~r·y

3 that each Juror agree theretof In other words, your verdict

4 must be unanimous.

5 It is your duty_ as Jurors to consult wlth one

6 another- to deliber·ate C<Jith a. 'Jie1;J to r-eaching a.n .;.gr·eement if

7 you can do so without violence to individual judgment. Each

8 of you must decide the case for yourself, but only after.an

9 irripar·tial ccinsider-ation c1f all the evidence in the case rNith

10 your fellow.Jurors. In the course of your deliberations, do

11 not hesitate to re-examine your own views, and change your

12 opinion, . i f con~)inced it is erroneous. But do not surrender

13 your honest convlctlon as to the weight or effect of the

14 ~vidence, solely because of the opinion of ypur fellow

15 Juror·s, or for the mere purpose of ~eturning a verdict.

16 Remernber .:tt all tirr11?-:. ~··i::ru .:;r.re not partisans. Your

17 are judges, ju~ges of the facts. Your sole interest is to

18 seek the truth from the evidence in the case.

19 Upon retiring to the Jury room )'OU should first

20 select one of your number to act as your foreman or forewoman

21 who will preside over your deliberations and will be your

22 spokesman here in Court. A form of verdict has been prepared

23 for your convenience.
24 If it is ;.. . our- intention tci return a Jerdict on
1

25 behalf of the Plaintiff the form of your 'Jee-diet will be, We,

\.. --
 153

.. -. the Jurx, find in favor of~-the Plaintiff, E. How~rd Hunt,

2 as::.e-::.se·::. d3.rn2.1;ies _.in the. 2rr1c•unt cif, A, 'cc1mpens.2tor·>~, ·and >··c1 u

3 1_.,.tould in·3er·t 2.ny amount, if an).. , you deern to be .a.pprc1priate

4 and B, punitive, assess in the amount you·deem to be
5 appropriate, so ~ay we, all, signed by the foreperson in the
6
lower right hand corner, dated in the upper right hand
7
corner.
8
If it ls your intention to returri a ve~dict for ~the

9
Defendant, the form of your verdict will be we, the"Jury,
10
find for the Defendant, Liberty Lobby, and against the
11
Plaintiff, E. Ho1;..1a.r·d Hunt~ sci sa}' 1,\Je a1 l , and a.gain ·3i1;ined in
12
the lower right hand corner by the foreperson and dated in
13 the upper right hand corner.
14 ~Tou 11• .1i 11 take the·::.e verdict=: to the ,Jur·}' r·c1c1rn a.nci
15 when you have reached a unanimous agreeme6t as to your

.l6 1Jerdict~ you r.;ill

1•• ha.ve )-'our· fc1r·ema.n fill 'it in, ,jate and sign
j
' 17
'
18
I~, dur·ing your deliberations, you should desire to
19
communicate with the Court, please reduce your message or
20
question to writing signed by the foreman or forewoman, and
21
pass the note to the Marshall who will bring it to mY
22
attention. I will then respond as promptly as possible,
23
either in writing or by having you returned to the Courtroom
24
so I can address you orally. I caution you, however, with
25
regard to any message or question you might send, that you

\
 ·i 154

( ..
should~ever state or spec~fy your numerical division at the

2 ti me.

3 Mr· • lJa. 1 t er , i t api:1ear-s at thi·;:. rr1c•rnent the origina.1

!

4 six Jurors fn this case are prepared to rnaKe a decision in

5 this. C-3.Se. I B.rn going to~ ther·efor·e~ excu-~.e >~c1u fr·orrc an)".

6 further attendance.

7 There fs always a possibility that you could be

8 brought back in for some reason~ so I am going to instruct

9 you until" you h~ve either called my office and.we wi11- tell

10 you what the verdict was or read it in the newspaper~ do not

11 di s.cus.::. the m-3.tter I/Ji th -3.n;.. cine -3.nd do not -3.l l cr1,\r anyone tcr

12 discuss i t 1;.Jith )--'OU.

13

14 given you heretofore and I do want to thank you. "{ou h3_ .,ie
1

15 paid ca. reful attention to the e .;idence and 1 1,\Je thank >~ou for·

16 i t' sir. You may step down and be excused.

17 <Thereupon~. the alternate Juror was excused.)
18 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, at this time I

19 want to instruct the Clerk to give to you the following:

20 First, I r,t) i 11 instruct them to g i 1.,..1e tc1 you the Jerci i ct for-rn·=-
1

21 .v.Jhich I h.ci.ve ._iust explained, the char··;ies 1;.Jhich I just gi'.)_en

,.
22 to you or a 1 1 Y •

23 Counsel want to verify with the Court these charges

"-~'
~ 24 that I a.m gi vi r11~?
·.. -;
25 MR. LAt,lE: I am sure i t is. accura.te.
 155

, THE COURT: Counsel for the Plaintiff.

3 THE COURT: We will give the exact charge that I am

4 giving to you orally, as quickly as i t could be assembled.
5
.We will have all of the evidence which has been received in
6
this case brought to you as quickly as we can.
7 Ladies and gentlemen of this panel, you may now
8 retire to consider your verdict.
9
<Thereupon~ the Jury reti~ed from the Courtroom at 3:05
10 p • rn. t ci de 1 i be r· .~. t e . )
11
THE COURT: Let the record reflect the Jury has
12 r·etired fr·c:rrr1 the c:ourtrc1orr1 tcJ comrnence the consideration of
13 their· l,ierciict .
.···
~:
14 Plaintiff,.any additional requested charges?
15

16 at the charge conference constitutes any ~~ceptions that we

17
., would have tak~n?

18
THE CC1URT: "'(ou t~'Ji 1 l have to VJai -t: fc1r a-. minute. Do
19
you have any additional requested ch~rges?·

20
MR. SNYC>ER: No.
21 THE COURT: Any ob.jections not noted at the time of
•.
~

22
the charge conference?
23 We noted our objections at the
MR. SNYDER: No.
24
charge conference.
25

(-,
\ ..• -- .·
 f ··\
I - .
• THE COUF:T: Defen<lant, any additlonal requested

2 char·ges'r'
3 MR. LANE: No.

4 THE CCJIJF~T: An/' c1t1Jection=:. not noted at the time cif

5 the charge conference?
6 MF:. LANE: No.

7 <Thereupon, a short recess was taKen.)

8 <Thereupon, the Jury returned to the Courtroom at 5:00
_\
9 o'clock p.rn.)
10 THE COUF:T: Ladles. .3.n'j gentlernen, it is the .Judgment

11 of this Court that you had a day and~ hal·f and we should
12 t.:i.~~e this. up tc1rr1c1rrc11'°.,1 =:.c1 }'OU r..~.iill ncit be tir·ed.

13 I 1,i.Jill let )-'OU be in r·eces·~·until tomorror,v. 1,~Je 1,. ,1 i 1 1

14 let you come in at 9!30 rather than 9:00.

15 i'·J(}l,\l is the tirrie, hov..ie•.Jer, )'OU h.3.1.Je been dis.cussing

16 the case for several hours now and you must stop discussing

17 i t .3.ga in •
•,<

18 Do not permit anybody to discuss i t with you.

19 Tomorroi.AJ 1..i..1hen >-·ou come back t-1ar>' v1 i 11 have re tr i et;ed

20 all of the exhibits, lf you have any personal notes there·,

21 pick them up, take them home, destroy them or bring them back

22 1,...1i th you tomorr-01,1.1~

23 As you come in tomorrow do not discuss the matter

24 Just with two or three of you at one time. Wait until al I

25 six o-f you corne back and Mary has b~·ought you the exhibits
I

·~ -.:.•.
 i57
_,
i .,_ ·~
~-· __ a.nd tha.._t t.vill t•e your c1u~~ tci gcr a.hea.d and cOmmence aga.in

2 7'Ci1Jr· ful 1 .3.dequ.~te Ois:..:..cus::.i c ns. of the

1 m-~.tter.

3 Any other requested f nstructions from the Plaintiff

4
to the Jury? The Defendant?
5 MR. LA1'1E: No.
6
MR. SNYDEF:: No.
7 (Thereupon, the Jury was removed from the Jury box.)
8 THE COURT: I would be glad if you arranged for a
\
9 p 1 ace not too far aJ..\Ja:r> a.nd if /lOJJ C-3.n 1 ea.Ve phone number·;;., l;Je
10 C-3.n ca.11 ;'ou rather than }'1:iu coming ba.ck a-.t '?:00. ~{c1u are
l1 welcome to be here at 9:30.
12
MR. LANE: ThanK you. The accommodatlons are very
13 nice. 1;.Jou11j sornethin1;i 1 ike ten minutes ai,iJa.y be aka/'?

14
THE COURT: Yes.
15
(Thereupcrn, the Cciur·t ,_,L ' 1985,
16 ..
17

18
Marchetti and the depositio of Mr. Tucker·=and Mr. Carto.
19
MR. 3MYDER: I.Ne have no 1:.r·oblemc<1ith that.
20 THE COURT: Counsel for the Defendant.
21 MR. LANE: No objection.
22
THE COURT: All three of these are depositions.
23 Carta and Tucker/s testimony was read
MR. SNYDEF;:
24
-_,,,
'
at the last trial. We took the stuff out of the Court, but
25
the Court has it, a cop~ of the transcriyt .
........
( ·' --
\ __ ~ ..,/
 15E:

.. THE c:1Jl_IRT: L·.Jha.teC1er· l,1.Ja.s giuen to them is IJJhat <A~-2

wi11 give tc' thei:r.i..

r1R St...f{DER: An)"' point LtJas, ther·e \..tJere r.,1 aric1US side

rern.3.rl<·.::. tiet1,t.1een the Court a.nd the 1 a.i.....t/er·s.•

THE COURT: LtJe r- e you anticipating g.i vi ng i t tc1 thern":='

MR. SNYDER: '(cru 1,.1.;an t i t rea:.d to th em again?

THE COURT: I do ncrt ~~ n or.AJ if I w.:tn t to gi T.}e it to

them beca.suse I am not sur·e al 1 of it is---

t--tR. f;J-..f'([JER :- l,de· a-"t~t ernp t e d r- e ad i.n g every th i n g fr om

Carto ta TucKer.

THE COURT: What I had in mind they would be read,

that is what I am talking about.

<Thereupon, a sho~t recess was taken, after which, the

THE COURT: Gentlemen, since we have a question of

the testimony to be Pead~ the Jury Knocked on the door and

announced they.have a verdict. Does the Plaintiff request

any inquiry of them with reference to providlng this material

or discuss it wlth the Foreman or receive the verdict?

MR. SNYDER: No.

THE COURT: Receive the ve~dict?

MR. S~<YDER: Yes.

THE COURT: Defendant.

MR. LEE: Receive the verdict.

 -
r=.-.7
1 .J

•THE COURT: M2.rk ..t:his Court's Exhibit X. Bring the

2 Jury in.

3 <Thereupon, the Jury enter~d the Jury box at 10:40 a.m.)

4
THE CCILIRT:· HaJ}e J'OlJ arrit;ed a.t a verdict in this

5 ca.s.e?
6
THE FOREPEF'.SON: Yes.

7
THE COUF'.T : l;Jou 1 d ;.'ou g i t) e i t to -the C 1 erk •

8
ttie verdict.
9
THE CLERK: United States.District Cour~, Southern
10
District of Florida, Miami, Florida, case number
1l
80-1121-C i ,,-,Jl;.JK. E. Howard Hunt) Plaintlff, v~rsus Liberty
12 1
Lot•by, C1 efenda.nt. ·)erdict a·s of February 6, 1'7'8-5, [.iJe, the
13
Jury, find for the Defendant, Liberty Lobby and against the
(
\
14
Plaintiff, E-. HovJa.rd Hunt.
15

16
THE CDURT: Ladies and gentlemen·; we will not go
17 -
through a. pi--c)i::edur·e 1JJhich is r·eferred to ;s·.:p~l 1 lfl ;l the ..J1:-1i:-Y~_,..
1

18
As Mary calls your name, if the verdict just read was in fact
19.
your verdict, respond in the affirmative that it was your
20

21 If i t c0a·=· not, let us. kno<AJ. The· purpose is to be

22 sure the record reflects we have ·a unanimous verdict.
I 23 (Thereupon, the Jurors were polled by the Clerk and upon
24
the question 1;Jas this your i...•erdict·t-he .Jurors answered
'' 25
in the affirmative.)
•
.''
 160
.. .,,
-.....

L'·.,,. ~\
THE COURT: Let this verdict which has been duly

2
,_,"
3 recorded.

4 (Thereupon, the Jury was excused.)

7
I certlfy that the foregoing is a correct transcript
8
f~om the record of proceedings in the above-ent.Jtled rnatker.
9

feud Jk/P~
10

l l

12 Date Official Court Reporter

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

~ ' 24
i
~i 25

-
" ' -···
"'l.
·,~
~
 400

l J:l·.1DBX.
: /'•.
,....., .- ..; . .;
·,
2 • F·ages

3
Direct Exami11atio:i b:,r l-1r. Lane. 167-213
I
Cross EJ{amina.t-ion t.y !·'.:r. Sn:y·der 214-216 .,
Redirect E2:ar:i.ina.tion by l·1r ~ [.\{~11e 216-218 I
5
JERRY BLOOVi

Direct Examination by I'1r .. I:ee 312-317

7 Cross I~}:ari1ination b~i i·:r. Gn;tCer 312-322
Redirect Exarc1ina.tio11 by :·rr. Lee 322-323

ELIZZ:~BETH· I:IcI1•1TOSI~

Direct E~':2r.1in~tion };;y rrP.. Dl1nneJ.l 355--36.l

10 Cross F.xa1nina.tion b~/ I:Ir. LCti19 361-366

12 Di re ct Exami:10.ti on i3~_l I•'.r. Dunnell 36 8-37 2

f.:ross Examination f.)y i:r. I.e.11e 372-37(~

{
P..edirect Examir:.e:.tio11 b::/ f;!r. Dt1r1r1ell 371,-375

1~
_u

17

1- ·~
"'

19

20

2.1

22

.23

2.5

.·~. : .: .: .... ..;

_ -· -:--.~ t··•:-::::1.r"'.~: t"r;11-::-·:-