Goswami's Testimony 2019-07-26 Fatico Hearing Day 2

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J7QTABD1 Fatico Hearing
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
4 v. 14 CR 716 (VM)
5 BAKTASH AKASHA ABDALLA and

IBRAHIM AKASHA ABDALLA,
6
Defendants.
7
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8
New York, N.Y.
9 July 26, 2019
9:20 a.m.
10
11 Before:
12 HON. VICTOR MARRERO,
13 District Judge
14
APPEARANCES
15
GEOFFREY S. BERMAN
16 United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York
17 AMANDA HOULE
EMIL BOVE
18 JASON RICHMAN
Assistant United States Attorneys
19
LAW OFFICE OF GEORGE R. GOLTZER
20 Attorneys for Defendant B. Abdalla
GEORGE R. GOLTZER
21 YING STAFFORD
22 CARDI & EDGAR, LLP

Attorneys for Defendant I. Abdalla
23 DAWN CARDI
DIANE FERRONE
24
ALSO PRESENT: Paralegal Specialist Morgan Hurst
25 DEA Special Agent James Stouch
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 THE COURT: This is a proceeding in the matter of
2 United States v. Abdalla. It's Docket No. 14 CR 716.
3 Counsel, please state your appearances.
4 MS. HOULE: Good morning. Amanda Houle, Emil Bove,
5 and Jason Richman for the government. With us is a paralegal
6 specialist from our office, Morgan Hurst, and DEA Special Agent
7 James Stouch.
8 THE COURT: Good morning.
9 MR. GOLTZER: Good morning again, your Honor, George
10 Goltzer and Ying Stafford on behalf of Baktash Abdalla, who is
11 present.
12 MS. CARDI: Dawn Cardi and Diane Ferrone on behalf of
13 Ibrahim Abdalla, who is to our left.
14 THE COURT: Good morning, welcome back. We're
15 resuming the Fatico hearing which we adjourned yesterday
16 following the conclusion of the cross-examination Ms. Houle.
17 Does the government have redirect?
18 MS. HOULE: Very briefly, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Please call in the witness.
20 MS. HOULE: Thank you, your Honor.
21 MR. GOLTZER: While we are waiting for the witness,
22 may I make a brief application in connection with the
23 examination?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. GOLTZER: Yesterday there were several instances

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1 when counsel for the co-defendant, Ms. Cardi, asked certain
2 questions about prior inconsistent statements. Under Brady v.
3 Maryland, because this is a Fatico hearing involving potential
4 aggravation of mitigation of punishment, we ask the Court to
5 direct the government to provide the defense with any
6 statements that they know are inconsistent or impeach this
7 witness's credibility with respect to the omission of critical
8 statements from prior interviews with the agent.
9 The government would know whether anything that the
10 witness said under oath is inaccurate, and we believe it is
11 their ethical obligation to advise the Court and the defense,
12 if that is the case, and the specifics. So that is my
13 application under the due process clause of the United States
14 Constitution, Brady v. Maryland, and its progeny. Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Ms. Houle?
16 MS. HOULE: Your Honor, the defense has all of the
17 witness's 3500 material. They have in fact had it since
18 October of last year. The government is otherwise in
19 compliance with its Brady obligations.
20 MR. GOLTZER: There's no dispute that we had most of
21 the 3500 material for a great deal of time and went through it
22 in preparation for trial. But there's been a radical change in
23 circumstances since this particular witness, who is now present
24 in court, made statements under oath yesterday, and the
25 government is aware that several of those were attempted to be

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1 impeached by my learned co-counsel by omission. And the
2 government is the only person that would know through its
3 agents and through the assistant U.S. attorneys who were
4 present whether the witness's answers yesterday were accurate
5 in terms of whether or not he always told people about things
6 that did not appear in the reports.
7 THE COURT: Thank you. Let's proceed with the
8 witness's statement, Ms. Houle.
9 MR. GOLTZER: Is there no ruling, most respectfully?
10 Because I can't make a record without a ruling.
11 MS. CARDI: Just for the record, I join that motion.
12 MS. HOULE: Your Honor, just to be clear, we believe
13 that the witness testified truthfully yesterday.
14 THE COURT: All right. The Court denies the
15 application. I will set forth at least some indications of the
16 Court's rationale subsequently.
17 MS. HOULE: May I proceed, your Honor?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 VIJAY GOSWAMI, (Continued)
20 having been previously sworn, testified as follows:
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. HOULE:
23 Q. Mr. Goswami, you were asked some questions yesterday by
24 Ms. Cardi regarding New Year's Eve 2016, do you recall that?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And on New Year's Eve 2016, you went to Ali Punjani's club,
2 is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you testified yesterday that a fight broke out while
5 you were at the club, is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you testified yesterday that at a certain point you
8 were injured and you were taken out of the club, is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Before you left the club, did you see Baktash in the club?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And before you --
13 THE COURT: Ms. Houle, sorry to interrupt. I omitted
14 to remind the witness that he took an oath to tell the truth
15 yesterday and that he remains under oath.
16 Do you understand that?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
18 MR. GOLTZER: Please note my objection to this line of
19 questioning since it's improper redirect. I did not cross on
20 the New Year's Eve incident, and she's asking about Baktash at
21 this point.
23 MS. HOULE: You Honor, I'm happy to strike the last
24 question. The point really relates to Ibrahim in any event.
25 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, you may.

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1 BY MS. HOULE:
2 Q. Before you left the club that evening, did you see Ibrahim
3 there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what, if anything, did you see Ibrahim do in the club
6 before you were taken out?
7 A. Ibrahim was waving a handgun in his hand and saying that we
8 was beating the person called Shafin Karar.
9 MS. CARDI: Excuse me, could you spell that name?
10 THE WITNESS: S-H-A-F-I-N K-A-R-A-R.
11 Q. Let me turn to a few questions that Mr. Goltzer asked you
12 yesterday. Mr. Goltzer asked you whether you called hearing
13 Baktash tell Rasheed that Baktash had access to heroin in
14 Tanzania. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Mr. Goltzer asked you whether Baktash was lying to
17 Rasheed about Baktash's access to heroin in Tanzania. Do you
18 remember that from yesterday?
19 A. Yes, but he was not lying.
20 Q. Do you remember Baktash also telling Rasheed that someone
21 named Abdul Syed had 420 kilograms of heroin available in
22 Afghanistan?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who is Abdul Syed?
25 A. Abdul Syed is from Afghanistan and he's very close and

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1 associated with Baktash.
2 Q. Who first mentioned Abdul Syed to you?
3 MR. GOLTZER: Objection to the improper redirect.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 MS. HOULE: Your Honor, Mr. Goltzer made an argument
6 yesterday that it was appropriate to question this witness
7 about his client's access to heroin because that's relevant to
8 sentencing. I would like to question this witness, it's only a
9 few more questions, about Baktash's relationship to a heroin
10 supplier, Abdul Syed.
11 THE COURT: You may, but don't use leading questions.
12 Q. You said that Abdul Syed had a relationship to Baktash,
13 right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What does Abdul Syed do for a living?
16 MR. GOLTZER: Objection, lack of foundation.
17 THE COURT: Overruled. He may answer.
18 A. He's one of the drug dealers from Afghanistan.
19 Q. What type of drugs?
20 A. Heroin and hashish.
21 Q. Have you met Abdul Syed in person?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Approximately when was that?
24 A. 2014, around June.
25 Q. Where was that?

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1 A. In Baktash's house.
2 Q. Who organized that meeting?
3 A. Baktash.
4 Q. And what was the purpose of the meeting?
5 A. To try and bring the heroin through Abdul Syed so we could
6 supply heroin to Rasheed.
7 Q. At meeting was there any discussion of the 420 kilos that
8 were available?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said yesterday that there were delays in getting heroin
11 because of monsoons, is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is a monsoon?
14 A. A monsoon means it's a rainy season.
15 Q. When was the monsoon season in 2014?
16 A. June, July, August, September, around.
17 Q. And why would a monsoon make it difficult to transport
18 heroin?
19 A. Because normally we transport heroin through a fishing boat
20 from Iran to Africa, so in monsoon season, meaning rainy
21 season, they don't allow them to go into the sea because the
22 sea is very rough and it's not advisable for them to go and
23 travel also.
24 Q. You were asked questions yesterday by Mr. Goltzer about
25 whether Pinky's death would benefit Dennis Jedburgh. Do you

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1 recall that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What year was Pinky killed?
4 A. 2014.
5 Q. And in 2014, you were selling abba, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who were your partners in that abba business?
8 A. Myself, Baktash and Ibrahim.
9 Q. And you testified yesterday that in 2014 you, Baktash, and
10 Ibrahim were selling abba to Jedburgh, is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what was Jedburgh's role?
13 A. Jedburgh's role was to manufacture the abba, meaning make
14 mandrax tablets in South Africa and sell it and bring it to the
15 U.S.
16 Q. Now Pinky was a transporter, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What does a transporter do?
19 MS. CARDI: Objection.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 A. Transporter means he was transporting drugs from East
22 Africa to South Africa.
23 Q. And in 2014, was Pinky the only transporter?
24 A. I don't know that. He did many things for David Armstrong,
25 but I don't know.

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1 Q. Did you know any other transporters in 2014?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Including locally, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. CARDI: Objection, leading.
7 Q. Who were some of the other transporters who you knew in
8 2014?
9 A. Hariri from Tanzania and Clement from Tanzania.
10 MS. HOULE: No further questions, your Honor.
11 MR. GOLTZER: May I have a moment?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MS. CARDI: I have some. Should I start?
14 THE COURT: Are you ready first? Yes.
15 RECROSS EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. CARDI:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Goswami.
18 A. Good morning, ma'am.
19 Q. Today you testified to another version of the New Year's
20 Eve fight at Mr. Punjani's club. Isn't it a fact that today
21 for the first time you have added that my client had a handgun
22 and beat up Shafin Karar, correct?
23 MS. HOULE: Objection, your Honor, that misstates the
24 record from yesterday.

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1 MS. CARDI: It does not.
3 Q. On June 7 of 2017 -- it's 3501-14, page 2 of 2 -- in
4 discussing the nightclub incident with the government, you did
5 not mention Ibrahim Abdalla at all, correct?
6 A. That's not correct.
7 Q. On June 14 of 2017 -- 3501-15, page 2 of 4 -- you mentioned
8 that Ibrahim hit -- you said Ibrahim Abdalla hit somebody's car
9 with something, a stone; no mention of a gun, no mention of
10 hitting this person you mentioned today, isn't that a fact?
11 A. That's not true.
12 Q. On June 27 of 2019, after you learned that you had to
13 testify at this hearing about my client, in talking with the
14 government about this very incident, you then told the
15 government that Ibrahim pulled out a gun and said: I'll kill
16 you. Correct?
17 A. Always I maintain Ibrahim had the gun and he pulled out the
18 gun.
19 Q. But you just didn't tell that to the government, correct?
20 A. I told the government.
21 Q. Sorry, that was 3501-93, and that was page 1 of 3.
22 If you look at 3501-93, page 3 of 3, when you speak
23 again about the New Year's Eve incident, you say that you saw
24 Ibrahim pull out a gun but you don't say he was beating anyone.
25 Isn't that correct?

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1 A. I always maintain he pulled out the gun and was beating
2 Shafin Karar.
3 Q. But you did not tell the government that, did you?
4 MS. HOULE: This is cumulative. The witness already
5 addressed these questions. And I would like to address
6 separately Ms. Cardi's misconstruction of the 3500 material.
7 THE COURT: I will let Ms. Cardi develop the question.
8 Go ahead.
9 MS. CARDI: Your Honor, so the record is clear,
10 Ms. Houle, brought it up in her redirect.
11 THE COURT: Proceed, Ms. Cardi.
12 BY MS. CARDI:
13 Q. So today for the first time you say that Ibrahim Abdalla at
14 the New Year's Eve party suddenly hit this man called Shabara
15 (ph), isn't that right?
16 MS. HOULE: Objection, that's not what the witness
17 just said, and I have the transcript cite from yesterday where
18 his testimony was consistent. It's at page 78.
19 MS. CARDI: Could you answer the question, please?
20 THE COURT: You may answer the question.
21 (Record read)
22 A. That's not right, not Shabara, Shafin Karar.
23 Q. So this is the first time -- sorry, withdrawn. Nowhere in
24 the government's notes did you record that Ibrahim Abdalla hit
25 the man Shabara (ph), correct?

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1 MS. HOULE: Objection, your Honor.
3 Q. In the most recent government notes, 3501-93, page 3 of
4 3 --
5 MS. HOULE: Objection, your Honor, she's questioning
6 the witness about notes that are not in front of him.
8 MS. CARDI: Ms. Houle, could I finish, please?
10 Q. Did you tell the government on June 27 of 2019 that you saw
11 Ibrahim pull out his gun and point it at Punjani's associate?
12 A. Shafin Karar, whom I said Ibrahim was beating him, he is
13 Punjani's man.
14 Q. Is it your testimony today that you told the government
15 this when you met on June 27 of 2019?
16 A. I don't know. I always maintain the same thing that I'm
17 telling you right now.
18 MS. CARDI: I have no further questions.
19 MR. GOLTZER: May I proceed?
20 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Goltzer.
21 MR. GOLTZER: Thank you.
22 RECROSS EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. GOLTZER:
24 Q. Just a couple of minutes ago, sir, you again stated, as you
25 did yesterday, that there was a delay in getting the heroin

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1 from Tanzania because of a monsoon, is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would you agree that in fact the heroin was not available
4 from Tanzania and it had nothing to do with the typhoon --
5 monsoon?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that true?
8 A. At that time there was no heroin available in around May,
9 June in Tanzania, bigger quantity.
10 Q. So it wasn't the monsoon, it was the fact that there was no
11 heroin available, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And for five months Baktash was telling them that there was
14 heroin available, right?
15 A. Baktash was telling Rasheed the heroin is available in
16 Afghanistan, but we are to bring it into Tanzania.
17 Q. But he told him that he had heroin available and that the
18 monsoon was the problem, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he say that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But he lied to him, because the monsoon wasn't the problem,
23 the problem was there was no heroin available in Tanzania,
24 correct?
25 A. Not correct.

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1 Q. You agree, do you not, that the heroin was not available in
2 Tanzania for the five months before you took over the drug
3 business? Do you agree with that?
4 A. Not bigger quantity, yes.
5 Q. So I'm correct when I asked you that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There was no heroin available?
8 A. Yes, it was, but not a bigger quantity.
9 Q. Not enough to satisfy Rasheed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The only heroin that arrived was yours, correct, through
12 Gulam Hussein?
13 A. Not mine.
14 Q. You arranged for the heroin from Gulam Hussein.
15 A. Yes, but not only I agreed, it was Baktash and Ibrahim,
16 together we discussed about it.
17 Q. But you had the source of the Sultan. It was your
18 arrangement that made it happen, not Baktash, right?
19 A. Yeah, but even Baktash knows Sultan for almost 30 years.
20 He's not only my source.
21 Q. And you were present when Rasheed was on the phone with
22 Baktash, you were present at Baktash's end of the conversation
23 when Baktash said: I never did heroin before. Weren't you?
24 He told him that.
25 A. That's correct.

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1 MR. GOLTZER: Thank you.
3 MS. HOULE: No additional questions, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Government have anything further for this
5 hearing?
6 MS. HOULE: Not with this witness, your Honor. I
7 would like to address the point made by Ms. Cardi regarding the
8 3500.
9 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, you may step down.
10 You're excused.
11 (Witness not present)
13 MS. HOULE: Your Honor, Ms. Cardi said that the
14 witness testified inconsistently with what he said yesterday
15 regarding the New Year's Eve fight. At page 78 of the
16 transcript the question is:
17 What did you see Ibrahim do?
18 Answer: Ibrahim also had a gun in his hands and he
19 was beating this Shafil.
20 That's what he said today on the stand and it's
21 consistent with the 3500.
22 And Ms. Cardi's references to the 3500 from June of
23 2017 are misleading. In June of 2017 the notes reflect that
24 this witness told the government that at the club that night
25 were Baktash's people. He didn't give an exhaustive list, or

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1 it's not reflected in the notes. A week later the government
2 met with the witness again, provided additional details, and
3 the notes reflect that that day Ibrahim was identified as being
4 there and being a participant.
5 Ms. Cardi suggested yesterday that this witness has
6 made up Ibrahim's involvement in the decision to kill Pinky in
7 recent weeks. Ms. Goswami told the government about Pinky's
8 murder and the events leading up to it on April 6, 2017, and I
9 would like to briefly cover a couple of points.
10 MS. CARDI: Your Honor, I object. The government is
11 going to have ample opportunity in the post -- I assume --
12 post-hearing sentencing to make their arguments. The
13 transcript will prevail, and they're anxiously trying to
14 rehabilitate and go through the entire testimony. I'm happy to
15 do it again with you, but I don't think that's appropriate
16 here. We will be having sentencing memorandums which clearly
17 will make various arguments in regard to the testimony today.
18 THE COURT: I will allow the parties today, if they
19 wish, to make a brief summary of their perceptions and
20 impressions of the hearing. So if the government wants to use
21 this occasion to do that, you may, and Ms. Cardi, you will have
22 yours as well, and Mr. Goltzer.
24 On this point, as to what the notes indicate this
25 witness said when he first met with the government, on April 6,

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1 2017, Mr. Goswami told the government about Pinky's murder and
2 the events leading up to it. And I would like to cover a few
3 points that are reflected in the notes. The notes indicate
4 that Ibrahim kidnapped Armstrong from a hotel in 2014 --
5 MS. CARDI: Objection. I used only a portion -- I
6 asked the question: When was the first time -- isn't it a fact
7 that the first time you raised the Pinky murder was on your
8 eighth session.
9 THE COURT: We're not going to get anywhere if the
10 interruptions of the summary are frequent.
11 MS. CARDI: Your Honor, they're not --
12 THE COURT: Let the government make its summary and
13 you will have your opportunity.
14 MS. CARDI: But they should not be permitted to --
15 THE COURT: There's no jury here.
16 MS. CARDI: I understand that, your Honor, but that
17 doesn't mean -- you're acting as our jury.
18 THE COURT: If they misrepresent, you can point out
19 where you think they misrepresent.
20 MS. CARDI: Okay.
21 THE COURT: Ms. Houle.
23 Those notes reflect the following points: That
24 Ibrahim kidnapped Armstrong from a hotel in 2014, that Ibrahim
25 was present at the mall with Livondo and pulled out his gun

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1 that day, that Ibrahim gave Goswami his gun following that
2 incident at the mall with Livondo, that Ibrahim was involved in
3 the discussions about Pinky's death, including a meeting with
4 Jedburgh at which Ibrahim was pushing for Pinky's death, and
5 that following Pinky's death Ibrahim was tracking Armstrong and
6 found him at a hotel.
7 Mr. Goswami did not make up Ibrahim's violence, his
8 use of guns or his participation in Pinky's murder in the days
9 that led up to this hearing. He told the government about it
10 years ago. He's been consistent, and he testified credibly
11 about it yesterday and today.
12 There was also some suggestion from Ms. Cardi that
13 Mr. Goswami committed other crimes that he didn't tell the
14 government about, and that mostly came in the form of Ms. Cardi
15 reading from a book which is published in 2006 that claims to
16 be about scandals in South Africa. It's a book of rumors. If
17 there was an actual basis for any of those claims, Ms. Cardi
18 would have presented evidence of it. She did not. For what
19 it's worth, I found exactly one review of that book online, and
20 it reads: Recognized one of the so-called scandals in the
21 book, discovered it was completely incorrect, no background
22 check on the fiction in the book was ever conducted by the
23 author, so the rest of the book lost all credibility. It's a
24 book that collects a series of rumors. Ms. Cardi presented the
25 witness with several of them, and he denied it.

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1 Ms. Goswami has certainly committed serious crimes.
2 He accepted responsibility for those crimes. He testified
3 about it and he did so credibly.
4 If I may, your Honor, have a moment to respond to any
5 comments that Mr. Goltzer makes.
6 THE COURT: Thank you.
7 MR. GOLTZER: Shall I proceed?
8 THE COURT: Unless Ms. Cardi wants to go first.
9 MR. GOLTZER: If you like.
10 MS. CARDI: Mr. Goswami is a witness who said to this
11 Court: I murder people and I can sleep at night. He said to
12 this Court: I tell the truth. Drug dealers tell the truth.
13 We have a code of telling the truth. Those are two shocking
14 statements from a witness that the government is contending is
15 credible and honest.
16 I have reviewed the 3500 material, and there is
17 substantial amounts of discrepancies in regard to my client,
18 Ibrahim Abdalla. I read from the 3500 material for each and
19 every day. I didn't mischaracterize it. It was clear that on
20 the first date my client is not even mentioned, on the second
21 date he did nothing but throw a rock at a car, on the third
22 date he now has a gun and he is shooting, and on the fourth
23 date he is now beating up a man that isn't mentioned at all.
24 If the government thinks that's credible, that's who they're
25 relying on, that's for you to decide.

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1 There is, if you review the testimony, the 3500
2 material, any number of other areas that, for example, were not
3 subject to this particular hearing but will be argued at the
4 sentencing whereby it is absolutely clear that my client's
5 conduct does not rise to the level of life in prison. It does
6 not rise to the level of somebody who was a decision maker. It
7 did not rise to the level of somebody who could control the
8 operation. It rose to the level of a gofer, a delivery boy,
9 someone who took people to the zoo, maybe chatted them up.
10 That's what it rises to the level of.
11 My client has admitted, he admitted to participating
12 in serious drug crimes, there's no question about that. But
13 this witness I submit is a liar, and I submit that he thinks,
14 as he did in Dubai, as he's probably doing with the Indian RAW,
15 as he's doing with our government, he's going to get out, he's
16 going to get away. He's the international drug lord, and he's
17 the one who should be going away to prison for life. But he
18 knows, he's smart enough: I'll give them what they want about
19 my client and that will save my life.
20 I don't think that that kind of a witness is credible.
21 But I'm not asking you to take my opinion, I'm asking you to
22 read the transcript. Your Honor, you can decide whether he was
23 honest, you can decide whether he's credible, but I submit to
24 you that after reading the transcript and hearing from us in
25 our sentencing memos you will not give him the credit the

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1 government is willing to give him.
2 THE COURT: Thank you.
3 Mr. Goltzer.
4 MR. GOLTZER: Thank you, Judge. Because the rules of
5 evidence don't apply to this sentencing hearing, I would like
6 to read from a document as part of -- as my case, and it's one
7 document, which I referred to in my cross-examination of the
8 witness.
9 The government had more than one cooperator that they
10 were going to call at the trial. One of the other cooperators
11 was Mr. Gulam Hussein, who was the transporter of the hundred
12 kilos of heroin that found its way into Kenya and was
13 ultimately destined for the United States.
14 Your Honor may recall that I asked the witness, VG,
15 whether in fact he had sent messages out involving murder from
16 the Dubai jail with Mr. Gulam Hussain. He denied it. He said:
17 I never sent messages through Gulam Hussein because I had my
18 cell phone. I guess, according to the witness, the Dubai rules
19 may be a little more lax than the MCC.
20 So the document that I would like to refer to, which
21 was provided to us by the government as part of the 3500
22 material, is 3506-09 at page 1, which is a statement made to
23 the government in a proffer through an interpreter with his
24 lawyer present. And what he told the government was that he
25 passed messages related to killings, that the word that was

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1 used as a code for the killing, which he didn't know at the
2 time but learned later, according to Mr. Hussain, was the word
3 supari, S-U-P-A-R-I. He told the government that it was slang
4 in the underworld for the word "murder." He didn't know what
5 the word "supari" meant at the time that he passed the
6 messages.
7 So he told the government that on two occasions
8 messages were passed from VG, the witness, regarding killing
9 the guy that plays cricket and separately killing the guy in
10 the black coat, and that messages were passed to the sister's
11 son. That's what their other cooperator told them. And
12 presumably the government accepted the word of that cooperator
13 because they were going to call him at this trial.
14 And with that, I rest, and now I'm prepared to give
15 you a summary.
16 I suggest, most respectfully, that this statement from
17 the government's 3500 material is admissible for whatever the
18 Court finds it's worth.
19 Now I would like to talk to you, most respectfully,
20 for a little bit of time about the witness VG. He's a
21 remarkable witness, Judge. Number one, I would like to start
22 by making some observations generally about his credibility.
23 He is a master criminal. And it is not for nothing
24 that he ended up in a chapter of the book that was used to form
25 a good faith basis for the questions by learned co-counsel for

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1 Mr. Ibrahim Abdalla. Think of it, Judge: He gets arrested in
2 Dubai and sentenced to life, and while he is serving a life
3 sentence, within a period of two years he earns $3 million by
4 laundering 400 to $500 million around the entire world. I have
5 never seen anything like that. I don't know if the Court has,
6 but that's really unusual.
7 Then he keeps the money. After all, he had major
8 expenses in jail. He had to buy food, he had to buy a phone.
9 None of that money is left over. Maybe he gave some to his
10 family. He keeps the money, and then he flips on the people
11 who got him the money.
12 (Continued on next page)
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1 MR. GOLTZER: (Continuing) And he cooperates and gets
2 11 people arrested. There's no indication he ever gave a
3 nickel to the Dubai government or this government, the United
4 States. He makes an application for mercy. You know, Judge,
5 that they never told the judge or the prosecutor that he had
6 been making a million or $2 million while he was in jail. If
7 they told this court in Dubai that, he'd still be there, where
8 he belongs, I respectfully suggest.
9 So, he knew that a false application went in. The
10 secret service of Dubai probably told him we'll take care of
11 it. We don't know what happened in Dubai, but we know he got
12 out. We know that as soon as he got out, he used the forged
13 passport to get into Kenya.
14 We know he's willing to lie. We know that he had
15 forged passports before he was in the prison in Dubai. He had
16 a plan all along, and it is a clear inference, what he was
17 going to do when he got out of prison in Dubai and -- I defy
18 government to contest it -- he was going to become again one of
19 the great drug dealers of the world. He had connections all
20 over the place. He had connections in Dubai. He had
21 connections in the Arab speaking world. He had connections in
22 Pakistan. He had connections in Japan with the Yakuza. He was
23 laundering money all over the world.
24 And understand, please, that every time you launder
25 money, the way he did, there is deception involved. There is

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1 lying involved. There is hiding of assets involved. There is
2 trickery involved. The Court's more familiar than I, I'm sure,
3 with money laundering cases. There is a secretive element to
4 it.
5 Now, the notion that there is a code among drug
6 dealers to tell the truth is something that I'm really glad
7 that I learned about at this hearing. Because since 1972, I've
8 been practicing law, and I must have missed something because
9 I've never heard that before. And it's nonsense.
10 Let me tell you where this guy is coming from. Number
11 one, everything has to do with Baktash. But it was his plan to
12 take over whatever organization Baktash had. He admitted today
13 that Baktash said on the phone I never did heroin before. No
14 heroin came from Afghanistan. No heroin came from Tanzania.
15 The heroin that showed up in connection with this case that the
16 government wants him to do life for that never reaches the
17 United States came from their witness. Through a guy known as
18 the Sultan, the Sultan.
19 Now, Baktash admitted that he wanted to be involved in
20 the American drug trade, but he couldn't make it happen. He
21 pled guilty to it because he is guilty of it, I'm not arguing
22 that.
23 But this is a matter of perspective and a matter of
24 weight to be given to things. He denies that Baktash was lying
25 to the people in -- to Rashid. He was giving them excuses. I

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1 have samples; it is the monsoon. It's not the monsoon, Judge.
2 He just told you today there wasn't enough drugs in Tanzania.
3 So how can you have the monsoon delay drugs that aren't there
4 to use? And if it was the monsoon, all he had to say is we'll
5 get you the drugs after the monsoon. But Baktash is telling
6 him I have the drugs, I'll get you the drugs, I have samples.
7 It was nonsense.
8 Now, what I want to tell you about Jedburgh, his
9 brother-in-law. It has to do with the murder they say Baktash
10 is complicit in. The real issue for Mr. Baktash at the Fatico
11 hearing is the only thing he denied that's in the PSR. Baktash
12 absolutely denies that he was complicit in the murder of Pinky.
13 We know that there is no allegation that Baktash ever killed
14 anybody in Kenya. There is a remarkable claim by the witness
15 that a year to the day after Baktash's father was murdered in
16 Amsterdam, he caused that assassin to be murdered in Amsterdam.
17 Certainly nothing to that extent has been proved by a
18 preponderance of the evidence. It is an uncorroborated
19 allegation.
20 But if you think about it, number one, who is the
21 assassin that killed his father? Did the witness ask for
22 details? Did the witness give any details? No. How would
23 Baktash know who killed his father? Since there was never an
24 arrest or evidence of an arrest in Amsterdam presented to your
25 Honor. How would he know where to find the assassin and how

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1 would he know a year to the day after the assassination of his
2 father what street corner they could find the guy on. There is
3 nothing in the record to demonstrate that.
4 But what it is by this witness is an uncorroborated
5 claim, and you know something, Judge, I could tell you that 16
6 years ago, I saw Ms. Cardi speaking to a ghost. And I could
7 say it under oath. And I could prove it to you because here's
8 the glass. And that's all that's involved with this particular
9 witness. He came in here knowing what he had to say to get his
10 cooperation. And he came in here, as every cooperator does,
11 saying to you I don't know what's going to happen. If I have
12 to do life, I'll do life. We understand as experienced federal
13 litigators, and the Court understands, that they all say that.
14 It's jury food. It makes them look good to the jury, and,
15 quite frankly, nobody does it better than the United States
16 government.
17 These are tough cases to try to juries; these are
18 tough cases to win. But it's clear that this witness has been
19 cooperating his way in and out of prisons, in and out of
20 potential cases that could cost him the rest of his life in
21 prison. And if you think he doesn't have expectations of
22 what's going to happen, if you think he hasn't scouted it out,
23 then I'll sell you the bridge that I can see from here, Judge.
24 This guy knows exactly what he's doing. He is a master
25 manipulator.

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1 Think about this: He had Taka killed after he invited
2 Jedburgh to a meeting that the Akashas didn't want him to go
3 to. He invited Jedburgh to the meeting to get his
4 brother-in-law into the business of mandrax. When he killed
5 Taka, which had nothing do to do with Akasha, he admitted he
6 was trying to hurt Akasha's mandrax business which had nothing
7 to do with the United States.
8 When he killed Pinky, he was depriving Armstrong of a
9 major, major transporter. When he killed Pinky, he was hurting
10 Armstrong, and he said under oath on direct I believe that
11 Armstrong and Baktash had been doing the mandrax business for
12 years. He was not only taking over the heroin, which didn't
13 exist before he came on board, he was taking over the mandrax
14 business. He wanted everything out of the Congo. Ultimately
15 what he was going to do was cut Baktash out, and he was going
16 to align himself with Ali Punjani. That's where he was going
17 until he got caught and he got extradited.
18 By the way, there is another million or $2 million
19 that he can't account for. So this guy is a master
20 manipulator, and the notion that he always told the truth, all
21 through his life in every drug deal he's done for 30 years is
22 one of the great fables. And the Grimm Brothers and Hans
23 Christian Andersen wouldn't even put it in one of their fairy
24 tales, because they know that children wouldn't believe it.
25 So that's what I have to say about that gentleman.

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1 So there are things that came out at this hearing that
2 corroborate concessions that the government made in its motions
3 in limine, and that I made in my sentencing submission. I'm
4 not going to do a lengthy sentencing submission because I've
5 already given one to the Court.
6 But they want a life sentence for a man who never
7 brought an ounce of heroin to the United States. They want a
8 life sentence for a man who pled guilty, who never brought an
9 ounce of the heroin to Kenya that was supposed to make its way
10 into the United States. They want a life sentence because they
11 claim he killed somebody in Kenya when their witness made it
12 happen. It was his gunman who did it, not Baktash's. And
13 every time he testified about an act of violence that Baktash
14 committed, nobody got killed. He slapped him around.
15 There is an old, very off-color joke that's told about
16 a summation Brooklyn. I'm not going to say it, but it sort of
17 paraphrases what I'm about to say about what we heard in this
18 case. Two drug dealers had a fight in Kenya. So what? And
19 they want to give you a life sentence for this man? On a plea?
20 And that guy's going to walk out of this courthouse, and he's
21 never going to go back to India.
22 I researched last night of whether the death penalty
23 was pending in India. There was a time when India had a death
24 penalty for drugs and people were actually hung for it. Then
25 they changed the law. And it says that there is a

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1 discretionary death penalty for prior offenders. Now, I don't
2 know, quite frankly, I want to be candid with your Honor, I
3 don't know whether he qualifies as a prior offender under the
4 Indian law, because the prior conviction was not in India. But
5 there is a death penalty for drugs in India. I know that in
6 many areas in the Muslim speaking world they cut your head off
7 for it or they hang you from a crane. They do that in Iran.
8 His crime was in the United Arab Emirates which he went to jail
9 for in Dubai. I don't know what that penalty was, but he's not
10 doing life and no one is sending him back to India, Judge.
11 Ms. Cardi was quite correct. If he gets the S visa or
12 the witness protection program, which he's going to get,
13 because they love him, and India loves him -- oh, which reminds
14 me. There are 1.4 billion people in India. They can't find an
15 Indian assassin. They need him. They were going to use him to
16 kill people in Pakistan. They were going to use him to kill
17 people in Thailand. They used him to find a mosque that ISIS
18 had. They used him to find people in the Caliphate. But I
19 have nothing to do with terrorists, Judge. I swear to you, I
20 have nothing to do with terrorists. Why I would have anything
21 to do with terrorists? It was Baktash who had to do with
22 terrorists, after all, he bought a gun from al Shabaab.
23 There is a concept in psychiatry, Judge, known as
24 projection. Right? And if I am a drug dealer, I'll say you
25 know, Judge, you're dealing drugs. That's projection.

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1 He is a terrorist? Nonsense. You want to know who is
2 the terrorist? There are different ways of being a terrorist.
3 This guy's been a terrorist all his life. He was going to do a
4 ton of heroin with the Sultan. He was going to turn himself
5 into one of the biggest drug dealers in the world while he was
6 cooperating with other governments and while he was out on
7 bail. And that's the witness they've proffered to you to give
8 him a life sentence.
9 Please consider these remarks before you decide what
10 to do to this man, Judge, and his family. Thank you.
11 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Houle.
13 In attacking Mr. Goswami's credibility, Mr. Goltzer
14 has made much of what happened in Dubai and what he was in
15 prison for, what he did when he was in prison, how he got out
16 of prison.
17 It's not disputed that Mr. Goswami committed many
18 crimes before he came in and pled guilty and cooperated with
19 the government.
20 And for all of the talk about Mr. Goswami's
21 credibility and whether or not he is an honest drug dealer,
22 there hasn't been a single lie that's been identified. There's
23 nothing that defense counsel has pointed to that Mr. Goswami
24 lied about in the course of his drug dealing.
25 These men were dealing in tons and tons and tons of

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1 drugs. If you lose a ton shipment and you lie about it, you're
2 killed. There were reasons for him to be telling the truth
3 about his drug business.
4 Ultimately, your Honor, the points that defense
5 counsel has raised to attack Goswami's credibility, you don't
6 even need to rely on Goswami -- although he did testify
7 credibly and consistently -- because it's in the recordings.
8 Mr. Goltzer's focused on whether or not there was any supply of
9 heroin available in Tanzania. Baktash says it on the
10 recordings. So does Ibrahim. That's 403-T. Ibrahim talks
11 about the trip to Tanzania and the sample that they viewed
12 there.
13 They don't say on those recordings that there is a
14 huge amount of heroin in Tanzania at that time. The
15 large-scale shipment was coming from Afghanistan, from Abdul
16 Sayed. That was Baktash's contact. And that's the heroin that
17 was impacted by the monsoon. That's what the witness testified
18 to, and that's what makes sense.
19 In terms of Pinky's death, Baktash is on a recording
20 talking about the circumstances of Pinky's death. He and
21 Mr. Goswami together are telling the confidential source about
22 how Pinky was killed, why Pinky was killed, how Baktash was
23 owed money for Armstrong's shares in the factory. This is all
24 at 421-T. About how the purpose was so that nobody could mess
25 with them, and Baktash says because of Pinky's murder, we're

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1 safe. Mr. Goswami's testimony is completely corroborated by
2 those recordings, Baktash's own words.
3 And this point about whether or not Baktash has
4 engaged in murders before, Mr. Goswami is not the first person
5 who has said that Baktash killed his father's assassin.
6 Baktash said that, again on a recording -- that's 417-T --
7 where Baktash talks about finding his father's assassin one
8 year later on the same street. Mr. Goswami didn't make that
9 up. Baktash said it himself. He admitted to it on the
10 recording.
11 And this alternative theory that Mr. Goltzer has
12 advanced about why Mr. Goswami could have this alternative
13 reason for killing Pinky, again, it's inconsistent with what
14 Baktash himself said on the recording, but it also doesn't make
15 any sense. Taka was killed in 2016. That has nothing to do
16 with Pinky's murder. Pinky was killed in 2014. In 2014,
17 Goswami was working with the Akashas in this drug business. So
18 what was good for Goswami was good for the Akashas in 2014.
19 And again, we don't have to hypothesize about it,
20 because Baktash says it himself on these recordings. Pinky's
21 death was agreed upon by Baktash, Ibrahim, and Goswami.
22 Baktash wanted it because Pinky was threatening him and because
23 they wanted to send a message to the drug market.
24 Mr. Goltzer also talked a lot about the money that
25 Mr. Goswami made. Mr. Goswami testified about how much money

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1 he made and the fact that he had spent it. I think it will be
2 interesting, your Honor, to see what Baktash says at sentencing
3 when your Honor is considering imposing a fine, as to what
4 money Baktash has made and what's happened to the millions and
5 millions of dollars that he made through this drug business and
6 that supported the lavish home on a beach that your Honor has
7 seen in the evidence in this case.
8 Your Honor, in terms of the arguments that Mr. Goltzer
9 has made about the appropriateness of a life sentence for
10 Baktash, we've addressed that in our submissions. We don't
11 think now is the appropriate time for us to take that up, but
12 we will be happy to answer further questions from the Court on
13 that topic at the time of sentencing.
14 MR. GOLTZER: May I just add something that I forgot?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 MR. GOLTZER: Thank you. As far as the tape recording
17 is concerned, my characterization of that tape recording at
18 421-T is a little bit different. I welcome the Court's looking
19 at the transcript, even though it wasn't technically placed in
20 evidence I believe.
21 What's happening is the witness is on the phone and
22 he's telling the story, and Baktash is backing him up basically
23 going, right, right, right. There is a lot of puffing going
24 on. If you look at all these transcripts, you know what drug
25 dealers do. They make themselves look more important. They

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1 make themselves look more serious.
2 Baktash admits he killed his father's assassin, but
3 there's no way he could have found him. That's not true. We
4 don't even know who killed him. By the way, if the witness
5 really wanted to know, he could have asked him because,
6 according to the government, they were friends. He could have
7 found out everything he wanted to know, but he never did.
8 There is nothing in the record except one piece on a
9 telephone, I killed the man who killed my father, and this guy
10 says he told me he killed the man who killed his father. Makes
11 him into a serious person. But there is no reason to believe
12 it's true.
13 What's more credible, Judge? Gulam Hussein telling
14 the government during proffers that the witness asked me to
15 send the message to kill two people. Is that more credible
16 than his claim that he killed an assassin who he could never
17 find, a year and a day later? You'll have to decide, sir.
18 THE COURT: All right. I thank you. I'm going to
19 close the Fatico hearing on this matter at this point.
20 I thank the parties for both sides for providing very
21 detailed, very professional presentations. Especially at the
22 high and literary level that Mr. Goltzer and Ms. Cardi has put
23 on the record by quotations or citations to Hans Christian
24 Andersen and psychiatry, Ms. Cardi has quoted from a book
25 relating to the witness.

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1 In that spirit, in listening to the testimony in this
2 case, it occurred to me that there was a poem, I believe it is
3 by Robert Frost, it's called, I believe, The Hangman. And the
4 theme of that poem is the hangman has a day job, and then he
5 goes home, and he has children and dinner with the wife and is
6 a very polite and very caring individual.
7 The point is that there are some people who have a day
8 job and they also have a nightlife and a night job. And they
9 do things that remind me also of sentencing of a defendant I
10 had recently who I called a Jekyll and Hyde defendant. A
11 person who had enormous support from the community, family,
12 friends, going back many, many years, and incredibly detailed
13 stories about all the good deeds this gentleman engaged in
14 throughout his life. At the same time, in his night job, this
15 gentleman was a high-ranking member of one of the big crime
16 families in New York who was a "made man." So how do you
17 reconcile the fact that you have these kinds of individuals.
18 That is the way that I, to some extent, that I view Mr. Goswami
19 and his testimony.
20 Let me pause there and give you some observations and
21 insights about the process that happens in many of these cases
22 involving cooperators and attempts by defense counsel to
23 impeach the credibility of the government's witnesses.
24 Especially in cases as complicated as this one, involving so
25 many individuals, so many events in so many different parts of

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1 the world that occur over a long period, and some of the facts
2 go back into the past many years.
3 When these witnesses tell their stories to the
4 government, it's rarely done in one narrative from beginning to
5 end in one session, because it would take literally weeks,
6 maybe months, to tell it all. In this case, Mr. Goswami
7 indicated he must have had as many as 50 sessions with the
8 government other a period of two-and-a-half years. And the way
9 these things develop, because they take part in segments,
10 installments, so to speak, the narrative sort of evolves and is
11 not a continuous description. It develops one piece at a time.
12 Sometimes, you may have one session in which the government
13 asks about one issue and the witness testifies to that issue.
14 The government may not necessarily raise another issue, because
15 they're not there yet in the narrative. But eventually, the
16 picture begins to develop from session to session.
17 In that setting, it is not uncommon, I believe, for
18 witnesses to develop parts of a story as they refresh their
19 recollections by telling other pieces. And that is what makes
20 this process somewhat difficult, because the witness's
21 testimony may appear inconsistent, not necessarily because the
22 witness was lying, but because the story is told in segments.
23 Bear in mind, also, that the witness is not taking
24 notes or making a recording of himself. It is the government's
25 agents who sit there taking notes, and the government's agents

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1 may be a prosecutor, they may be an FBI agent. They are not
2 necessarily there to be court reporters, and they don't take a
3 transcript of what they hear. They record their impressions
4 and sometimes in bullet points. So, these notes are not
5 gospel, they are not recordings, they're not word-for-word
6 transcripts. Sometimes the person taking notes may be
7 distracted because they may have another role in the session.
8 They may themselves have questions.
9 The point is that all of that leads to a situation
10 where witnesses may be confronted later by omissions, and the
11 omissions may be explained by the fact that when they're told,
12 well, on such-and-such a date you told the government this, but
13 you didn't say that to the government before. Well, that
14 happens in part because of the nature of the process. And in
15 my view, that does not necessarily mean that the witness is
16 being inconsistent or lying. To some extent, it is a function
17 of this flaw in how this record is made by the government under
18 these circumstances.
19 Here, the issue that the Court is asked to decide is a
20 very narrow one, as I see it. It is whether the defendants,
21 both Baktash and Ibrahim, were complicit in the killing of
22 Pinky, and whether there is evidence that Ibrahim was involved
23 in acts of violence, threats, assaults using a firearm. That
24 is all that is before the Court.
25 So, on those points, even if Mr. Goswami were

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1 inconsistent -- whether in material or immaterial ways -- about
2 some of the things he testified about, it doesn't mean that he
3 necessarily was lying about the issues that are before the
4 Court.
5 He may be a terrible person, he may be a gangster of
6 sorts, a drug dealer, a murderer. But like The Hangman, he
7 also from time to time may tell the truth on some things. It
8 is the Court's role to determine whether or not, at least as to
9 the relevant portions of what's before the Court, the witness
10 was sufficiently credible and provided testimony from which a
11 reasonable finding could be made by a preponderance of the
12 evidence that the defendants engaged in the acts that are
13 attributed to them.
14 I, like you, saw the witness testifying, and I agree
15 with Mr. Goltzer's observation that he is a master at what he
16 does. But, in my view, by and large, Mr. Goswami was credible
17 in what he said. I'm not going to parse what elements may or
18 may not be supportable, but at least as to those parts of the
19 issues that are before the Court, I found his presentation
20 sufficiently credible. Not only by his demeanor and the
21 internal consistency of his statements, but also to the extent
22 that what he said overall was corroborated by other evidence
23 that the parties have brought to the Court's attention.
24 For those reasons, I am inclined to overrule the
25 objections of the defendants to the representations in the PSR

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1 and the superseding information with regards to the killing of
2 Pinky and with the acts of violence that are attributed to
3 Mr. Ibrahim Abdalla.
4 We, therefore, should look at the calendar for a date
5 for sentencing of the defendants and see what may be convenient
6 for both sides.
7 MS. CARDI: Your Honor, the government and I have been
8 in communication in regard to my client. And November 8,
9 Friday November 8 is a good date, if that's good for the Court.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Goltzer, do you have a proposed date?
11 MR. GOLTZER: I would suggest something before
12 October 2 when I start my trial in White Plains.
13 THE COURT: Let's look for a date before November 2
14 for Mr. Baktash Abdalla.
15 MR. GOLTZER: We can do it sooner, Judge. We can do
16 it within a couple of weeks, according to Mr. Baktash, because
17 you have our submission.
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MS. HOULE: That's fine for the government, your
20 Honor.
21 MR. GOLTZER: Some time in August then. I'm going to
22 be here all day on the 7th, if that's convenient for the Court.
23 It's my CJA day.
24 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Friday, August 9.
25 MR. GOLTZER: Sure.

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1 THE DEPUTY CLERK: At 3 o'clock.
2 MR. GOLTZER: Okay.
3 MS. HOULE: I apologize, your Honor. Could we pick a
4 different day in August?
5 MR. GOLTZER: Is it possible to do it earlier in the
6 morning so he doesn't spend the whole day in a holding cell?
7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Friday, August 16 at 11:30 a.m.
8 MR. GOLTZER: Sure.
10 THE COURT: All right. So Mr. Baktash Abdalla's
11 sentencing Friday, August 16 at 11:30.
12 And Ibrahim Abdalla November 8.
13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: At 10 a.m.
14 MS. CARDI: That's fine, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Thank you. If there is nothing else, I
17 hope you have a good day and a good weekend.
18 (Adjourned)
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1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
2 Examination of: Page
3 VIJAY GOSWAMI
4 Redirect By Ms. Houle . . . . . . . . . . . . 209
5 Recross By Ms. Cardi . . . . . . . . . . . . . 215
6 Recross By Mr. Goltzer . . . . . . . . . . . . 218
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206

J7QTABD1 Fatico Hearing

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

5 BAKTASH AKASHA ABDALLA and

12 HON. VICTOR MARRERO,

22 CARDI & EDGAR, LLP

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

1 THE COURT: This is a proceeding in the matter of

2 United States v. Abdalla. It's Docket No. 14 CR 716.

3 Counsel, please state your appearances.

4 MS. HOULE: Good morning. Amanda Houle, Emil Bove,

5 and Jason Richman for the government. With us is a paralegal

8 THE COURT: Good morning.

9 MR. GOLTZER: Good morning again, your Honor, George

10 Goltzer and Ying Stafford on behalf of Baktash Abdalla, who is

12 MS. CARDI: Dawn Cardi and Diane Ferrone on behalf of

13 Ibrahim Abdalla, who is to our left.

14 THE COURT: Good morning, welcome back. We're

15 resuming the Fatico hearing which we adjourned yesterday

16 following the conclusion of the cross-examination Ms. Houle.

17 Does the government have redirect?

18 MS. HOULE: Very briefly, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Please call in the witness.

20 MS. HOULE: Thank you, your Honor.

21 MR. GOLTZER: While we are waiting for the witness,

22 may I make a brief application in connection with the

24 THE COURT: Yes.

25 MR. GOLTZER: Yesterday there were several instances

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

1 when counsel for the co-defendant, Ms. Cardi, asked certain

2 questions about prior inconsistent statements. Under Brady v.

3 Maryland, because this is a Fatico hearing involving potential

4 aggravation of mitigation of punishment, we ask the Court to

5 direct the government to provide the defense with any

6 statements that they know are inconsistent or impeach this

7 witness's credibility with respect to the omission of critical

8 statements from prior interviews with the agent.

9 The government would know whether anything that the

10 witness said under oath is inaccurate, and we believe it is

11 their ethical obligation to advise the Court and the defense,

12 if that is the case, and the specifics. So that is my

13 application under the due process clause of the United States

14 Constitution, Brady v. Maryland, and its progeny. Thank you.

15 THE COURT: Ms. Houle?

16 MS. HOULE: Your Honor, the defense has all of the

17 witness's 3500 material. They have in fact had it since

18 October of last year. The government is otherwise in

19 compliance with its Brady obligations.

20 MR. GOLTZER: There's no dispute that we had most of

22 in preparation for trial. But there's been a radical change in

23 circumstances since this particular witness, who is now present

24 in court, made statements under oath yesterday, and the

25 government is aware that several of those were attempted to be

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

1 impeached by my learned co-counsel by omission. And the

2 government is the only person that would know through its

3 agents and through the assistant U.S. attorneys who were

4 present whether the witness's answers yesterday were accurate

5 in terms of whether or not he always told people about things

6 that did not appear in the reports.

7 THE COURT: Thank you. Let's proceed with the

8 witness's statement, Ms. Houle.

9 MR. GOLTZER: Is there no ruling, most respectfully?

Goswami's Testimony 2019-07-26 Fatico Hearing Day 2

Goswami's Testimony 2019-07-26 Fatico Hearing Day 2