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2 [Open session]
11 in the courtroom. I believe that Mr. Karnavas needs another seven minutes
15 Honours.
20 a document, sir, and I'll read it for you because we don't have the B/C/S
21 version. But if I can put it on the ELMO. And for the record, it's 1D
24 Yesterday we talked a little bit about Cibo and his functions. Do you
1 A. Yes.
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, here these are some minutes of a meeting it appears. And I'm
7 going to need Madam Usher to actually turn the second page because I want
8 to read a passage from it. This would be with respect to Mr. Cibo. This
10 point, so I don't want to go into the entire contents, but this was a
11 meeting where my client, Dr. Jadranko Prlic, attended along with Mate
12 Granic, the then Foreign Minister of the Republic of Croatia. You will
13 see that it was a very constructive meeting. And then it goes on on page
14 2 that there apparently had a meeting with Mr. Cibo, and I'm going to read
15 slowly what Mr. Cibo's position was and then pose a question to you.
17 guess.
18 "MI," that would be Mostar 1, "has met today Mr. Cibo Safet,
22 Croats. He said here that in the eyes of the world community, Croatia is
23 not acclaimed as an aggressor country, and that this is one of the reasons
2 Milosevic, Lord Owen and Mr. Stoltenberg are not legitimate leaders of any
3 state and therefore they are not able to negotiate about the future
5 "3. Realising the fact that no new state could be based on ethnic
6 principle."
8 "Mr. Cibo stated that if these requirements could not be met, the
9 Muslims would be willing to fight until there was no single Muslim left in
10 the area of former Yugoslavia. He also said the Muslims were against
11 ethnic cleansing. He added that everybody would have to accept the fact
15 et cetera."
16 This was Mr. Cibo's stated position. Apparently, one would think
17 that this is also Mr. Alija Izetbegovic's position since that he was more
22 constitution?
24 B/C/S. It's an extract, but I'm not familiar with the context. Cibo knew
25 that the statements weren't always appropriate, but I wouldn't agree with
1 you that he literally represented what Alija Izetbegovic was fighting for.
4 Izetbegovic, he was always for avoiding a conflict between the Muslims and
5 the Croats. That was his position. And he always asked us and beseeched
8 Why did they send Cibo into this area? Well, since we're short of
9 time, I can't go into all the details. There was only some things we
10 found out about after the war. There were some documents that surfaced
11 about how he arrived there. He was sent to the area of Jablanica and
13 apparently and that was unacceptable because they thought that that meant
16 remember his name, had already accepted the structure in Konjic, the HVO
17 structure in Konjic. That's why Cibo had apparently been sent down there.
22 A. Some of his statements, even the text you've just read out, point
23 to the fact that he was an extremist and other statements don't seem to be
1 some people around him, and we knew that they weren't the sort of people
2 they should have been. When he arrived there, our situation became far
3 more complex because local people could no longer officially control the
5 Q. Thank you.
8 Q. Okay. Sir --
11 what Cibo was up to though, didn't he, because he was being informed of
14 Defence team, please. Ms. Alaburic, how much time do you have at your
18 an hour and a half. That's the amount of time you granted me. And I also
20 that I'll have sufficient time to cover at least some of the subjects with
21 Mr. Idrizovic.
25 be accusing you of anything, but I believe that as you have done so far,
5 00452.
7 as not to waste time with the documents. This is an order from Mr. Sefer
8 Halilovic in which Safet Cibo is being assigned to the Mostar 4th Corps.
10 While waiting for it to appear on the screen, I'll tell you what
11 this will document is. It's a letter from the SDA regional committee in
13 and part of the Executive Board of the SDA, it was concluded that Mr.
15 a full member.
16 Mr. Karnavas asked you about appointing Mr. Cibo as the president
17 of three municipalities, and now we have a document that concerns the army
18 and the SDA political party. These documents on the basis of which Mr.
19 Cibo had power in party and in the army and within the civilian bodies.
22 Q. Yes. So those are the three documents concerned. Thank you very
23 much.
24 A. Yes.
1 that Mr. Cibo was a little difficult, that sometimes his positions or the
3 Yesterday, you also said that you didn't really get on with him, and you
4 said that in the area of Jablanica and Konjic, someone else appeared with
5 Mr. Cibo or, rather, some other military formations arrived with Mr. Cibo.
8 important when, first part of a unit came and then the entire unit came
9 from Igman in Sarajevo. The name was the special unit -- unit for special
12 arrived and then the entire unit came then. The silver fox unit came. It
14 Wolves also arrived. It was also a small unit from Igman. I can't really
15 little tell you what their status was. As far as we were concerned, the
16 status was non-existent, but I don't think those units were under the
17 effective control of the corps when they arrived there and later on to
18 avoid being asked other questions. The detachment for special purposes
19 within the Supreme Command Staff shows who should have been in charge of
20 it. The corps commander, the commander of the 4th Corps and later the 6th
21 Corps, well, the name shows that it wasn't part of the corps. As to which
22 formation it was a part of, I don't know. Don't ask me. Then I could
25 arrived, and you are telling us that they weren't part of the regular
1 system of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They were directly linked
5 but I'm interested in the following: What were the consequences of the
6 arrival of those units in the territory around Jablanica and Konjic? You
7 said that Cibo arrived and that units arrived and that corps's
8 dissatisfaction among the Croats and the Muslims. How di the Croats feel?
9 Do you know how they reacted, how the Croats reacted to the arrival of
11 A. Well, no one felt good about it, not just the Croats. I don't
12 know how to put this. These people were young people. These men were
13 young men. They were well-armed, and they were -- they had Ray-Bans.
14 They were all arrogant. They'd been well fitted out. That's how it was.
15 Don't laugh. In one village, well, they wreaked havoc because they
17 these men were -- well, that's how they were. I don't know how to
18 describe it. They weren't part of the structure or they weren't under
19 effective control of anyone else. Whether there was someone who wanted
20 things to function in this way, I don't know. All I can say is how things
22 Q. Very well. Tell me, when those units arrived did the relationship
23 between the Croats and the Muslims deteriorate or improve or, rather, the
4 question.
6 that in May and June, 1992, the Croats took all the major hills in the
7 southern and western part of the municipality of Jablanica, and you said
8 almost literally, that at that point the ABiH army had been established or
9 had the BiH army been established by then or had you been in a position --
10 rather, you said you had the ABiH army. You could have expelled them from
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When Mr. Cibo arrived in the area of Jablanica and Konjic, was the
17 about the hills taken by the HVO in 1992 or, rather, the elevations. They
19 Q. So you said that nothing changed. But in what sense did something
20 change?
22 Q. You said that in that sense the relationship to the HVO didn't
23 change when Cibo arrived, but I believe that you wanted to say that in a
24 certain sense the relationship did change. So I want to know whether I've
1 A. Well, let me tell you what that was all about if you want me to
2 explain.
3 Q. Briefly, please.
4 A. Yes, I'll try. Until his arrival, our contacts with the HVO -- we
5 had contacts with the HVO. There were never any problems especially when
6 Marko Zelenika and I were there. There were really no problems and there
7 weren't any problems later on. We still maintained contact. But with his
8 arrival, our contacts ceased, not because we wanted them to cease, but
10 contact with them. So that is why I said at the beginning that we weren't
13 about the statement by Mr. Cibo, about some sort of Bosnian unitarianism,
15 said -- gave yesterday, to the effect that in December, 1992, you talked
17 about cantonisation. And from the way in which you spoke about this, I
23 decision that the authorities take, that the authorities agree upon. Now,
24 since this was not agreed upon, cantonisation was the subject of
25 discussion, but it was not a fait accompli. It was not something that was
1 decided upon. Then we said, let politics do its work and once they reach
3 against that. We just wanted to have these agreements rounded off and
4 agreements actually reached. And the problem here was that the local
8 and they wanted to put it into effect. Now, we were opposed to this until
11 bit. And in this sense, we're interested in whether the BH army really
12 did implement this policy, but with regard to the military operations or
13 did individuals in the BH army have some of their own political goals?
19 Jablanica, in the fifth section this is, and I'm going to quote: "We
20 should state loud and clear that the three ethnic groups, entities, which
21 are being imposed now, will not be accepted by the Muslim people."
24 is the correct number. And it is, as I said, the minutes of the session
25 of the Municipal Assembly dated the 22nd of October, 1992, and point 2 was
2 The Staff Commander of the armed forces of Jablanica at that time, and
3 this is in section 5, said that "we should state loud and clear that the
4 three ethnic communities will not be accepted by the Muslim people, and an
7 said when quoting Mr. Cibo, contained in the document of the European
8 Monitors, observers. Now, tell me, do you have any knowledge about this?
9 Did you know that many some of the representatives of the ABiH army would
11 ethnic grounds?
14 Q. It is page 5.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: For us, too, it is not clear where the passage is
20 quoted the passage, so I don't think there's any need for us to spend time
21 on that now.
24 MR. SCOTT: I apologise to counsel, but I must say I'm with Judge
25 Trechsel on this. I'd like to see. When the language is being put to the
1 witness, I would like to be able to see the particular language and the
6 our screens, and it begins with the following words, "Ako, if". And what
7 I quoted was the last part of that portion. "It should be stated large
8 and clear that the three ethnic groups are being imposed now will not be
14 context. Read out the previous passage where it says "Units of the --
16 Q. I have read everything, Mr. Idrizovic. Tell me, did you read the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you tell us whether that -- from that book it emerges that
20 Mr. Sefer Halilovic was without a doubt opposed to the internal division
22 ethnic principle?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You agree?
1 for the benefit of the interpreters and the Court. Thank you.
3 Q. Do you agree that he was not the only member of the BH army who
6 army, that within its composition, there were 25 per cent of non-Muslims.
9 The interpreter is asking you please kindly slow down, and I only
12 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, my question was as follows: Can you agree with the
13 position taken that Sefer Halilovic was not the only member of the BH army
17 Q. Tell us whether you ever heard -- can you agree with me when I say
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
25 a civil war, and there is no category of war that you could not apply to
2 Q. Yes. Thank you. I'd now like, Mr. Idrizovic, for us to take a
3 look at the documents of the BH army which relate to the conflicts. I'm
4 not going to begin with April, 1993, but with March, 1993. So would you
5 now please take a look. And in my set of documents, if you can find the
8 Q. 438.
11 says in the translation as well, but those who know the names of the
12 units, who are familiar with the names of the units, will be able to see
13 that it -- we're talking about 7th brigade, the Suad Alic Brigade from
14 Konjic, and a letter from the commander, Midhat Cerovac. It is dated the
15 23rd of March, 1993, in which it says the following: "We inform the 4th
17 members of the HVO captured, the town blocked, life in the town paralysed.
19 Tell us, please, Mr. Idrizovic, perhaps we could just remind the
20 Court of your words when you said that the situation in Jablanica could
21 not be understood or followed unless we know about the events that took
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell us, do you know about these events in Konjic? Were you
2 A. No, I did not know about those events, and I think I said
4 All those who say that they knew what was going on within the encirclement
5 are not telling the truth. We are under -- we were under such a siege.
6 We were under such a blockade and taken up with our own affairs that if
7 we're going to tell the truth as human beings then, objectively speaking,
8 we didn't know what was going on there. And I'm under oath here. I took
9 the solemn declaration. And I claim that I never knew that on the 23rd --
10 is that what it says, the 23rd of March, yes -- that 150 members of the
16 April, 1993, and it is addressed to the Municipal Staff for the defence of
17 Jablanica. You can see that in the lower portion. Can you see that?
18 A. Yes.
20 stated: "Undertake all necessary measures and steps in the spirit of our
21 previous order to place the units under full combat readiness as was
22 ordered."
23 Can you see that order and point 1 of it? Can you explain to us,
24 what was the previous order to place units under full combat alert?
25 A. Well, I don't know what the previous order was. I assume you have
2 Q. Do you happen to remember what that previous order was so that you
4 A. I really don't want to speculate once again. I'm sure that you
5 have the order. You ought to have it because you found it like all the
6 other ones. It is the archives of the 4th Corps seized by the HVO in May,
10 or the previous order was because it's been 15 years since that time after
11 all.
13 the secrecy of our own activities and pay due attention." Does that mean
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can you explain to us the call for combat -- or, rather, the
18 That slogan that is in capital letters at the end of the text. Can you
21 comes under morale boosting and propaganda and things like that.
22 Q. All right. Let's move on to the next document then. Let's move
24 from Arif Pasalic dated the 14th of April, 1993, addressed to the
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Could you explain to us what this order is about? "You must not
4 that about? What was that about? And why did Mr. Arif Pasalic issue an
6 A. Why? Well, I can't speak in his name and say why. The Spanish
8 stadium on -- in an open space and there were rumours going round at that
9 time, and we're talking about the 14th of April because the conflicts in
10 the Neretvica river valley had already begun. In Doljani and Sovici, the
11 situation had reached a head and we, together with the representatives of
12 the Spanish battalion and the European Monitors, toured the area to see
14 Yes, I'll get to that. Just a moment. I'll get to that. I'm
18 HVO attacks Jablanica, the Spanish Battalion would try to pull out,
19 because faced with a situation of that kind, it could have been the
20 victim, too. And this actually happened at a certain point in time later
21 on. A shell actually did hit them and two members of the Spanish
22 Battalion were killed. So the intention was to have the Spanish Battalion
23 stay there to be a witness and if the HVO were to attack us, let them be
24 in the target area, too. Probably, that was it. I'm saying this. I'm
2 correctly, is that you do not know what Mr. Arif Pasalic wanted to achieve
4 A. I said that I didn't know but that that was what I assume.
6 from the HVO Brigade commander in Konjic, Mr. Zdravko Sagolj. It's very
9 Igman. We are doing all we can to neutralise their action. They are
12 (they have surrounded our forces in Doljani and Sovici) but we can't do
15 and cannot maintain their position. Hurry up. Inform Prozor. They say
16 they can't help us at all. They say they have no orders. In Konjic,
18 in the sector of Ivan Planina, engage forces with the artillery in Prozor
23 A. No. This was on the 15th of April. Jablanica had already been
24 attacked. We were dealing with our own problems. I can't say what was
25 happening in Konjic. Konjic had been cut off for three or four days. We
1 didn't have any contact with Konjic, any communication with Konjic. What
2 Mr. Sagolj has written confirms what I have already said here yesterday or
3 the day before yesterday. Everyone was dealing with their own problems.
5 You can see that Mr. Sagolj is asking for assistance. Nobody was
6 sending him any assistance. That was our situation. That was everyone's
7 situation.
9 transcript on page 19, line 19. Instead of the word "Prozor" it should
10 say "Konjic", since the letter I read concerns the area of Konjic.
11 Let's move on. Everyone was dealing with their own problems. Mr.
14 municipality of Konjic, would it be possible that on the same day the HVO
15 in Konjic would prepare such a letter and you would draw a conclusion on
16 the basis of the letter that everyone was trying to save what they had in
17 the area under their control. Could you explain that very briefly though?
19 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, you said that everyone was dealing with their own
20 problems. This can be seen in this letter and that includes HVO units.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So it don't show that there was planned action and a joint action
24 hadn't been planned by all those forces. You can't say that.
25 A. Well, I said on a local level, people were dealing with their own
2 Konjic. I really don't know nor could I have known. And no one from
3 Jablanica could have known what was happening in Konjic and vice versa.
4 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, we've now opened up two subjects. Let's try and
5 first deal with the subject I'm trying to clarify by putting these
7 have come to the conclusion that individual HVO units were exclusively
8 concerned with what was happening in their area, in their territory, and
9 if these things were happening on the 15th of April, the only logical
10 conclusion is that on the 15th of April, there was no planned HVO attack
11 in the area of Jablanica and Konjic. Would you agree with that
12 conclusion?
13 A. That's not what I said. All I said is that the situation was such
14 that we, at the local level, dealt just with our own problems. As to what
15 someone planned at a higher level, well, I know nothing about that. But
16 from Mr. Sagolj's letter -- on the basis of Mr. Sagolj's letter, you can
17 prove what I'm saying, that we were all dealing with our own problems and
19 Q. That's just what I wanted to show. Thank you for that answer
21 regard to your answers that relate to not knowing anything about the
2 answer.
3 A. Well, you've lived in Zagreb and you can't understand what I'm
4 saying. People who went through the war can understand me. These
5 gentlemen here know what it was like. You don't. We could only move
8 that you were able to move around freely and that you had certain
11 neighbouring municipalities?
13 elsewhere.
14 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, I'm not asking you whether you could have known
15 anything about that. I understand you when you say that if you were
16 involved in combat, et cetera, you were only familiar with the situation
18 events in one place, for example, Jablanica, without trying to explain the
20 A. Well, if you look back at the situation now, then you can see that
22 Q. And that's why I want to show you and the Judges documents that
25 these places are referred to in the indictment. And this is why I would
3 rendered a decision in which we've said that the tu quoque defence was not
4 acceptable. If you want the witness to say that the ABiH was guilty of
5 committing atrocities, well, you can spend many hours doing this, but this
6 doesn't mean that we will be taking this into account in the judgement.
7 We're not judging the ABiH. We are judging the charges directed at some
8 of the accused. The ABiH isn't on trial here. We're not dealing with
9 what happened that Konjic. You can ask him whether he knows what happened
10 in Konjic and he'll say yes or no, and the Judges will be intelligent
11 enough to understand the answer. But don't spend minutes or hours on this
12 subject, given that the witness doesn't want to play your game.
15 because I'm not trying to point to crimes committed by the ABiH. My sole
19 him whether the ABiH carried out an attack on the 14th of April, and I'll
20 say yes or no, and you can continue in that way. Deal with the substance.
21 The Defence keeps complaining about not having enough time. The
22 Judges have noted that you're not dealing with the crux of the matter.
23 You want to show that there were attacks or defensive action taken by the
24 ABiH. You have a former member of the military here. Ask the witness
25 whether the ABiH was involved in an attack in April. He'll say no,
1 perhaps, and then you can show him a document that contradicts him, et
2 cetera, et cetera. I'm not going to lecture you on how to proceed when
4 avoid wasting time. When you use time intelligently, constructively, then
5 we can only approve this. But when we notice that you are following a
6 route that is not of much use, I must inform you of the fact.
8 a direct question about whether there was an ABiH attack in April, 1993,
9 I'm quite certain that the witness would say no. And similarly, if I put
10 the same sort of question to an HVO officer about HVO attacks, this
13 the witness.
14 I'm sorry if you believe that I'm wasting my time. I don't share
15 that opinion, and I believe that in Jablanica and Sovici and Doljani
16 certain facts have been accepted from the Tuta and Stela case. These are
17 facts that we now have to refute at this stage, and these adjudicated
18 facts also say that the HVO planned an attack on Jablanica and that the
19 attack on Sovici and Doljani was part of the planned action. The events
21 population from that area, and my questions are being put to the witness
22 in order to prove that there was combat in the wide area of Jablanica and
23 Konjic, and these areas are linked up. Conflicts would spill over from
24 one area into the other. And I'm trying to show that certain military
25 activities had been planned or, rather, certain HVO military activities
1 had, as the purpose, the achievement of certain objectives, and this was
3 So things aren't quite simple when we are talking about who was
7 soldier. You know that when there's a military action, there are orders.
8 There are preparatory orders, there are orders that concern reports on
9 actions. There are debriefings. That's how things work in all armies
12 operation, the witness in front of you would have been immediately aware
14 matter.
16 is the following: It's an indisputable fact that the ABiH had more
17 territory under its control after the conflict with Croats than it had at
18 the beginning. And I'm sure we won't find a single document from the ABiH
19 in which we can see that an attack is being ordered. But now I'll ask my
20 client, Mr. Petkovic, to provide an explanation for the reason for which
23 Q. Your Honour, we talked about the arrival of Safet Cibo and his
3 Q. Have you seen documents of the commander of the brigade Suad Alic
4 who launched an attack in the area of Konjic as ordered by the 4th Corps
5 commander.
7 Q. Not before today. Sir, you were link to the 4th Corps, yes or
8 no?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you see in the document of the 23rd of March the stamp of the
13 4th Corps?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was the deputy commander of the 4th Corps, who was known as Tetak,
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 Q. You've been shown an order dated the 4th of April, I think. From
23 the commander of the 4th Corps, it was also addressed to you. It was to
25 A. Yes.
2 A. Yes, I was familiar with it. I didn't say I wasn't. All I said
4 it to me.
6 conflict in Konjic.
9 events and I think that the orders of the 4th Corps are orders that you
11 A. Yes.
14 Konjic.
19 Q. Very well. Let's talk about the next order you were shown several
22 documents, perhaps you could provide the number so that we can see it on
23 the screen, because the witness said that he couldn't see the document.
3 4D 00081.
4 Q. Witness, can you see that order of the 7th of April? It was shown
5 to you previously.
6 A. Well, I'm -- I don't know what number you mean now. I'm looking
7 for it.
9 A. I see.
10 Q. You took a look at the first point of the order. "Undertake all
12 placing the units on full combat alert or full combat readiness as was
13 ordered." Now if we're dealing with the 7th of April here, this document
14 is the 7th of April, and on the 20th of March was the blockade and attack
15 on Konjic and 150 members of the HVO captured and the next day the arrests
17 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. You cannot say that. Now, the next document which my
21 attorney showed you, was the next order to raise combat readiness and it
23 A. Yes.
2 it is 4D 00082.
5 A. Yes.
7 have the date as being the 14th of April, Arif Pasalic is still the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All the orders that we've seen are continuous orders following on
12 A. These orders, yes they are. They are orders from the corps
13 commander.
16 A. Yes, because the situation deteriorated from one day to the next.
18 mentioned the 23rd of March, the blockade of Konjic, the arrests that took
19 place, 150 members on the first day and I don't know how many HVO soldiers
20 on the second day. Now, do you know about Turje, Zabrdje, Zaslivlje,
21 those places?
22 A. Yes.
1 who spent time in the area consider that to be a small Croatian enclave?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know, sir, that in the broader area of the town of Konjic,
4 it was only this small portion, this small area where the Croats and up to
6 A. I know that Mr. Petkovic, but don't ask me about Konjic, please,
7 because the situation in Konjic was very -- well, I haven't got any
9 Q. Sir, I just asked you something that you do know about. You have
10 already told me that a man nicknamed Tetak came to Jablanica, and as far
11 as I know, this man named Tetak was the deputy commander of the 4th Corps.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, could my counsel show us the order by Arif
16 00084.
18 Q. Witness, can you see this order of the 16th of April? First of
19 all, is it the command of the 4th Corps that issued this document?
23 A. I was.
24 Q. You, right. So you were within the command of the 4th Corps and
4 A. Yes.
6 of information from the supreme defence staff of the armed forces of the
10 difficult position because they do not have enough manpower. They demand
11 that their artillery from Risovac attack our positions north of the
12 Neretvica. The HVO informs that the ABiH forces have taken control of the
14 A. Vrce wasn't taken control of and Vile doesn't exist in the area.
15 That's a mistake.
19 reinforcements from Prozor from the north. And the HVO units in Kiseljak
20 have been ordered to help them out and move through Bradina, via Bradina.
21 The HVO from Neretvica will attempt to take control of the village of
22 Grebivca."
23 A. Yes, Grebivca.
24 Q. Yes. And then we can't see the rest of the text. But what we can
5 manpower coming from Prozor, from the northern side, and HVO units in
6 Kiseljak have been ordered to set out to assist them via Bradina." Is
8 A. Yes.
10 village of Grevici, because via Grevici, and Kucani, the infantry can move
13 arrival of new forces from the direction of Prozor. And I'd like to
17 successful operations and in order to break down the forces of the HVO."
19 A. Yes.
21 says, "Send to the addressees." Tell me the brigade locations. The 43rd
23 A. Konjic.
25 A. It was turned towards the Serb aggressor over there, towards the
3 Q. Do you know how many men held the front line towards the Serbs?
4 A. It was a long front line from Vrce, where the HVO held positions
5 and where the Serb forces had their own positions and then via Konjic,
7 Q. Let's move on to the next brigade, the 44rd brigade of the army of
8 BH.
9 A. That is Jablanica.
13 Q. All right. Now let's look at the 45th brigade. Where was that?
14 A. Neretvica.
17 Jablanica lake.
20 this as well.
22 of corps strength, so it had three companies, one was in Mostar, one was
24 Q. Thank you. And the Municipal Staff of Konjic was the next
25 addressee. You were not at its head. And the Municipal Staff at
2 A. Yes.
4 and your own brigade as well, the 40, what did you say, the 44th Brigade?
5 A. Yes.
10 written.
11 Q. Witness, you know Konjic and the area around Konjic better than
12 any of us here. Tell us, please, militarily speaking, how could the HVO
18 Q. I'm asking you about the territory, the area that is more
21 A. Yes. Right.
22 Q. Now, tell me, please, the HVO Brigade, how many battalions did it
23 have?
24 A. As far as I know, Mijo Tomic was the third, that means three.
1 A. Yes.
5 mentioned that?
7 Q. Tell me now, did the staff of the Supreme Command with Cibo, send
8 these troops to the Konjic-Jablanica area, and with the arrival of Cibo,
10 say that they started three days after Cibo arrived in the
11 Konjic-Jablanica area?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, if that same area, the Konjic municipality and Jablanica, the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, in Jablanica itself, you told us that you had 2.500 soldiers.
24 Yes or no?
25 A. Yes, throughout the whole war. There were never that many
1 concentrated at any one time, but through the brigade, through the BH army
2 during the war, so many soldiers passed through it, but not at that time.
3 Q. Did you say that the HVO had 300 people in Jablanica?
4 A. The documents will tell you the exact figures and the HVO
5 information and report will tell you the exact figures and the deployment
6 of the people.
7 Q. Did you say that the HVO had 300 men? And in your written
9 A. I'm not sure I'm following you. I didn't understand what you just
10 said.
11 Q. You said that the HVO had 300 soldiers in Jablanica. Now, in your
13 the town of Jablanica, for preventive reasons, you incarcerated 100 people
18 Q. Let's move on. Witness, I'm going to go back once again to the
19 23rd of March. And this Court and all of us here have to know that Safet
20 Cibo arrived before that and not long afterwards, not long afterwards, the
21 conflict broke out. Now, for you, those of you who were within the 4th
22 Corps chain of command, you do not know that on the 23rd of March the town
23 of Konjic was blocked? I'll repeat it again. The town of Konjic was
24 blocked. Somebody paralysed life in the town. Somebody arrested and took
25 prisoner 150 soldiers of the HVO, and somebody, the very next day,
3 A. Yes.
5 A. I do.
8 Q. Tell this Court whether they were prisons held by the BH army?
11 Q. I'm not asking you about these joint things. I'm asking you who
13 A. First of all, they were held by the HVO and the BH army together
15 Q. My next question is this: You said that you could help Konjic.
16 Konjic could be helped out only from the area of Prozor, if you wanted to
18 A. Well, you could help it out on all sides but it depends on the
19 available forces. You could help Konjic from Fojnica as well and Kiseljak
20 as well.
23 that.
25 it decided to, could it, from the Konjic area, engage in fighting with the
3 answer your question. The situation was such that at that point in time
4 nobody could help anybody. Not even God could help us down there any
5 more. The situation was that complicated that all of us fended for
7 you not to ask me anything about Konjic, because I don't know about that.
8 And I took the solemn declaration to tell the truth here and that's what
11 nothing about the situation somewhere else. I heard stories going round,
13 don't know anything about the situation in Konjic but I do know for sure
14 that the -- in Konjic, the Konjic Croats, the HVO could not have helped
15 them from any direction just as the BH army could not have helped us in
16 Jablanica, and that was the situation reflected further afield in the
20 there any military logics in the following, for anybody with two
21 battalions, and you've just said that nobody could help anybody from any
22 side, would it be logical for them to enter into conflict fighting two
23 brigades and against forces that were brought in by Safet Cibo? Would
25 A. Well, it's not logical, but let's be quite clear here. Safet Cibo
1 didn't bring in any respectable forces, any large forces. It was 3 to 400
8 brigade. Now, if the BH army -- ABiH had three brigades or, rather, it
9 did have three brigades. In your particular town, you had 2.500 soldiers,
11 and the Chamber will check that out, 100 were preventively incarcerated.
12 Now, the question that you're being asked by General Petkovic and
13 that I am relaying to you is this: How come with that ratio of forces, it
14 would be possible for the HVO, numerically far lower than compared to the
15 number of forces the BH had, could launch an attack? So what answer could
17 to you? How come that the HVO who had so many less -- far less soldiers,
18 how could it have launched an attack against a far mightier ABiH army? So
20 questions.
22 to correct something. The 44th Brigade never had 2.500 men. All I said
23 is that in the course of the war in Jablanica, and I was referring to the
24 Municipal Staff, the brigade, and the MUP, through these bodies 2 -- 2.500
25 men passed through all of these bodies, but the brigade never had 2.500
1 men at one point in time, but the war lasted for four years and there were
3 We haven't got time to go into all the military details now, but I
4 think that, naturally, the HVO couldn't have launched an attack where the
5 Herceg Stjepan Brigade was located, but I believe their strategy was to
6 wait and see. They were waiting for someone to come from the outside and
8 Jablanica when Sovici and Doljani were attacked. And later on, this
9 happened when there was an attack launched from the direction of Prozor
10 towards Slatina. And also, there was this attack in June on Boksevica, et
11 cetera.
13 the HVO withdrew from Jablanica, when it moved its command, its troops,
14 its police. Most of the families of those who had gone to Doljani
15 remained in Jablanica. They believed that they would return down there in
16 two or three days' time and they would join up with their families again.
17 If they hadn't believed that this would happen -- if they hadn't believe
18 that this would happen, if they hadn't counted on assistance from the
19 outside, they certainly wouldn't have left their families in town and gone
20 to this village to shell this town. In fact, they shelled their own
21 families. I think that was the HVO plan. I'm assuming that that was the
23 they didn't have the possibility of launching any military activity, any
24 attack.
5 A. A brigade from Jablanica and we're talking about the 15th and 16th
6 of April.
9 the Radesine sector, check-point was set up, and from the direction of the
10 Falanovo Hill, the Falan Hill, if you remember that part, it's in the
11 direction of Ostrozac, the road was kept under fire to block the road to
12 Konjic. On the 15th and 16th, we were using all of our forces to
16 something against the Serbs, but that you threatened them, and since they
17 were aware that they were in an inferior position, they gave up on that
24 comment with your leave. When reading the order dated the 16th of April,
1 Prozor on the 17th of April, on the 18th of April, and on the 19th of
3 will also talk about this and we have shown this witness documents that
5 question to the witness. If the HVO had to assist its forces or wanted to
6 assist its forces in Konjic, how could they have done so in military
7 terms? They would have had to leave from Prozor and then drive back the
8 armija in the first village and then in the second village and then reach
9 Kostajnica?
11 A. Yes.
13 A. Yes, yes or, rather, it's the largest Croatian village and that's
16 the order shows that your brigade from Jablanica carried out military
19 it have been logical to cut of your routes from -- between Konjic and
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 [Open session]
13 President.
16 the question?
20 take over the area between Jablanica and Konjic, to cut off access to
22 A. Well, I can't say just yes or no. I'll answer your question but
1 44th Brigade from Jablanica never carried out military action in the
3 sector, if the whole -- the entire Herceg Stjepan brigade had been there
4 in the Neretvica, well, there was the 45th Brigade of the ABiH in
5 Neretvica. Why would they need assistance from Jablanica? There was no
8 Kostajnica, well, naturally. That's not logical and that's not possible.
16 because I think I'm running out of time. I think I've been granted an
20 document.
22 provide the Bench with some information. This document can be found in
1 Q. Witness, you can see the document on the screen. Can you see the
3 A. Yes.
5 A. It should be.
7 A. Yes.
9 brigade, the problems in the municipality of Konjic and the zone of the
10 Neretvica brigade.
11 A. Yes.
13 A. Yes.
15 A. Yes.
17 Let's deal with Konjic first of all. Have a look at item 3 of this order
1 A. Yes.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Ostiste?
7 A. Yes.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You know about the hamlet. "Be prepared to carry out an attack on
12 A. Yes.
16 and Konjic?
19 Battalion of the 44th Brigade, when the brigade commander was carrying out
20 Pasalic's order, did it say that they should participate with the
21 Neretvica brigade under Hakalovic's command and that you should launch an
23 attack on the positions and units of the HVO." Which is the -- in which
25 A. Radesine.
1 Q. Now that you have mentioned Radesine, tell the Court what happened
3 A. Perhaps more than that but, yes, I know what happened there more
5 They blocked the M-17 main road, and it wasn't possible to link up
13 A. They took Radesine and the population. Well, I don't know what
14 they did to them but I know they attacked Radesine. They took the
15 population somewhere and they captured or arrested the soldiers, but the
18 will have a witness from the Spanish Battalion who will probably deal with
19 that.
22 cooperate with the Neretvica brigade and with Mr. Hakalovic, who was
1 A. Item 3, the 2nd Battalion task, is that what you're referring to?
3 A. How should I put this? These are positions to the east of the
5 Ostrozac. Globica is the neighbouring village beyond the lake. And apart
6 from Radesine, there were no other units anywhere. They weren't really
7 facing the HVO or, rather, this position wasn't much exposed to the HVO.
8 It wasn't facing the HVO at that time. We had positions facing the Serbs
9 on that axis.
11 wouldn't be polite. I know where the positions facing the Serbs were, how
12 far away they were. In Enes Kovacevic's order, on the second page, "The
13 3rd Battalion co-operates with the Neretvica brigade in the Konjic area in
14 carrying out attack." That's what I asked you about. Did the brigade
16 Konjic?
17 A. No.
20 Boksevica mountain, the brigade was involved in combat with the HVO but in
22 Q. Just a moment, please. I'm not claiming that you entered deep
23 into the rear of the Konjic municipality, but with Hakalovic and his
24 brigade, the Neretvica, you pushed back the HVO in Kostajnica and that
25 general area.
2 Now, the fighting at Boksevica lasted with lesser or greater intensity for
3 a month.
5 but I'd like to show you another document now compiled on the 24th of
8 follow-up question. The document as presented to you, sir, shows that the
12 launch offensive operations against the BH army. So we see that the 44th
13 Brigade is using all its effectives and you answered General Petkovic's
15 Can you take a look at point 12 of that order, please. What does
23 given on the basis of this order to the 1st Battalion, the 3rd Battalion,
1 recollections, was it the commander of the 44th Brigade that was supposed
2 to give the final order for the troops to open fire? What happened with
3 the 44th Brigade and your unit? How did you act?
6 municipality. Nowhere were the units of the 44th Brigade outside their
7 municipality, and nowhere did they launch into combat operations outside
10 has -- also has to do with the 2nd Battalion, which was engaged in an
12 10, where it is provided for the wounded and injured to be taken to the
14 preparatory action that conforms to this order, but in point 12, it seems
15 that the order must first be issued by the commander. But maybe there's
16 some restrictions, and that's why I'd like to have your comments. It
17 seems that there are two situations. One is that the commander has
18 ultimately to give the order for the go-ahead, and in English it says "in
1 the day when we were totally cut off, and we expected an all-out attack
2 from all sides. And of course if somebody were to launch an attack, and
3 the possibility existed in the Boksevica area for that to happen, and in
8 add two questions here. One refers to what you have said, that you said
9 that you prepared for an attack. Now, this can mean two things. It means
11 defend yourself against an attack from the other side. What was it that
15 Ostrozac, on the 14th, there was a civilian fatality. That was a refugee
22 the result that there -- the ABiH largely outnumbered the HVO. Can you
23 say anything about the firepower of these two bodies of troops? How would
24 that compare? I believe it was a few hundred HVO or even less versus
4 us. They didn't have the power to do so, nor were we afraid of an attack
5 from our local HVO, nor were we afraid that the HVO from Jablanica would
6 attack us. They didn't have the power to do so. But on the hills around
7 Jablanica, a year before the war, heavy artillery weapons were positioned
10 tanks, and all the rest of it. Those are things that we could have just
11 dreamt of. And we were afraid. We weren't afraid that we'd be attacked
12 by the local HVO, but that the HVO from Western Herzegovina would attack
13 us which came -- which did take place. The battalion from Siroki Brijeg
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much. And excuse me, Ms.
22 could open fire in two cases? The first case is if an order is received
23 from the brigade commander to open fire, and the second case would be when
24 the unit is attacked, and then you would have to open fire in order to
25 defend?
10 Now document 4D 00140 is the next one that I'd like to take a look
11 at.
15 Q. Witness, while we're waiting for the document, you said that the
17 A. Yes.
19 municipality for just a month. It is the 23rd of March, and this is the
20 24th of April now. So it's the space of a month. Let's see what happens.
21 This is our department for refugees and displaced persons who sent out
24 Q. You have it on your screen. You have the document on the screen.
3 Croatians, and this date is one month later on the basis of an unequal
7 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. The Prosecution has said a
8 number of times and maintains its position, that whether the Muslims
10 going into any particular one at this point in time. That's why I'm
14 other reason then to take us down into a relevant area and tu quoque and
15 into an area of the case that has nothing -- nothing is charged in Konjic.
16 What -- what we've seen here this morning, I think Mr. Petkovic has shown
20 nor the Prosecution has ever suggested that the threat from the HVO came
21 from Konjic. The threat from the HVO came from the north and to the west
22 and this all -- all this about Konjic has taken up 45 minutes, an hour,
23 and is completely irrelevant. I've not interrupted up until now. But now
1 Petkovic is the last, not only in this courtroom, but generally who --
2 which would attempt to justify the crimes of one side by crimes committed
4 view and from the human point of view. The reason that we're showing this
8 balance of power between the HVO and the BH army. And I think that Judge
10 wish to prove that the BH army was far more powerful compared to the HVO
11 forces.
13 questions then about this balance of forces and on the basis of this
14 document. There are 23 villages, Croatian villages here. And we can see
15 that the Croatians were expelled, that the villages were looted, burnt and
18 Q. Witness, from the 23rd of March and the blockade of the town of
19 Konjic until the 24th of April, I showed you 24 villages taken over by the
21 A. Well, rumours were going round that certain crimes had been
22 committed.
23 Q. We're not talking about crimes here. Were the villages occupied?
25 would have to speculate, and I'm not here to do that. The time that we're
1 discussing was far off, as far as we were concerned, and it didn't enter
2 our minds to look at what was happening in Neretvica because we had too
4 Q. Thank you for that answer, but I have another question. Was there
5 a united system of command? The 4th Corps, two brigades in Konjic, one
8 Q. Yes, but I'm asking about that and was Esad Ramic and Tetak at any
11 Q. But the observation that can be made is that the 43rd, 44th and
13 A. Yes.
15 A. Yes.
5 the events in Sovici and Doljani. And it has to do with a direct count in
6 the indictment. Can you tell us, to start off, when the fighting began --
7 when the HVO engaged in combat in Sovici and Doljani. Do you remember?
8 A. From the 13th, we did not have effective communication with Sovici
11 answer that question. We have seen a series of documents, and from the
12 Tuta and Stela trials, it is common knowledge when that began. So you
14 counter-productive.
16 understandable. Right. Now, you told us that the BH army units were in
20 A. No, it's not sufficient. Let me say why, why they were there.
21 Q. You told us yesterday why they were established, and you also told
25 A. Yes.
2 again, and I thank my learned friend Ms. Nozica for that document, and it
3 is in the Bruno Stojic set of documents for the Bench. And I'd like to
7 completion of mobilisation, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Platoon should take up
8 its positions towards Risovac, and the 5th Platoon in the village of
11 armoured vehicle and not allow free passage in the direction of the
13 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Idrizovic, whether from what we've just read
14 out of this portion from the 44th -- commander of the 44th Mountain
15 Brigade it would emerge that the BH army in Sovici and Doljani did have a
17 Jablanica?
19 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, does this order show that there was some other
20 task? I know you'll repeat what your position is, but just tell me: Does
22 A. I have never seen this order before. This is the first time. I
23 don't think it tallies with what I said earlier on. While I was the
24 commander in command of the formation I have referred to, well, that was
25 their exclusive task. Their task was that in the case of a Croatian
2 Doljani did, and the people in Sovici surrendered and what happened to
3 them happened.
5 the way in which you depicted it when talking about the tasks of the ABiH
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Very well. We can move on. Yesterday you told us that the
12 A. Yes.
18 A. No. Those are -- who were serving in the army managed to break
19 through to Jablanica.
20 Q. When you say those serving in the army, you mean members of the
21 ABiH?
22 A. Yes, yes.
24 evacuate the population. Did he engage in combat with the HVO or not?
25 A. Well, I think there are a lot of documents about this, and in the
1 Tuta and Stela case there were witnesses who have addressed the issue and
2 there will also be such witnesses in this case, I believe, who will be in
5 ABiH mounted resistance of some kind in Sovici? You don't know whether
8 reports show that the action was carried out brilliantly without any
9 losses.
10 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, we are discussing what you know. You are telling
11 me that you don't know anything about this, and I just want to conclude
12 with this issue saying that you don't know whether there was an armed
14 A. According to the documents that I had and the documents that you
15 have, and on the basis of the conversations with people up there, well,
16 naturally, there was a conflict. People were attacked, and when they were
19 know that?
24 Prozor?
1 Q. Very well. Can you clarify something for us? Can you clarify
2 part of your testimony when you said that in fact there were two conflicts
3 and that the second conflict - and I'll quote to you - occurred after a
4 member of Tuta's units had been killed, and after that event there
5 were -- an even fiercer attack was launched. Can you tell us what you in
11 hostilities. I said that that order hadn't been implemented but that on
12 the 24th - so not on the 22nd but on the 24th - a fierce attack was
13 launched; this attack continued. I don't know whether you understand how
14 war a waged. Probably not very well. But there was a fierce HVO attack
15 on that day, on the 24th, and on that occasion Tuta's deputy was killed,
18 was killed, tell us what in fact happened in Sovici and Doljani. Had the
22 Q. So --
24 answers correctly, when you mention Sovici and Doljani, are you talking
25 about what you know now in 2006; or are you answering these questions on
1 the basis of the knowledge that you had when you were in Jablanica in
2 April 1993; or are you telling us about this because you testified in the
3 Tuta and Stela case and you learned about many things there?
5 capacity are you answering the question? Are you answering the question
7 the question in your capacity as a witness in the Tuta and Stela case; or
8 is it because in the meantime you have read a lot of material and you find
11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, before the witness answers Your Honour's
14 questions about this. The witness repeatedly says, "I wasn't there. I
15 don't -- don't ask me to speculate," and then turns around and continues
16 to insist that he speculate, and can't have it both ways. He can either
17 talk about Sovici and Doljani or he can't, but we're going in two
18 directions at once.
20 problem that I would like the witness to tell me in what capacity he's
22 questions.
25 ago I answered that question. I told counsel that there would be other
1 witnesses appearing who could testify about Sovici. I wasn't there at the
2 time, and I can't say anything about what I saw there because I didn't see
4 read about it. So I told her that she should spoke to others about this,
7 that the witness wasn't in Sovici or Doljani and that is why I put my
8 question to him and asked him whether he had any direct information about
10 As far as the objection raised by Mr. Scott, I'd like to draw your
12 witness said that after Tuta's deputy had been killed, his name was
13 Cikota, he mentioned the date and he said after this member had been
14 killed an even fiercer attack was launched and this was in order to take
15 revenge. This was on page 46. The word "revenge" was repeated today, and
16 I believe that it's my task to clarify what is at stake here, given the
17 nature of these answers. And to clarify the word "revenge" I'd like to
18 draw your attention to the fact that this is a term that is a key term
21 the following for me. Yes, it's true that you referred to vengeance. On
22 what basis? Did you read about this? Is this something you learned about
23 in the Tuta and Stela case, or is it because in April you learned about
24 this in Jablanica? So why did you spontaneously use the term "revenge"?
1 very rapidly, because among the four men killed there was the brother of a
2 member of the 44th Brigade command. Mustafa Skampo. There was an Skampo;
3 he was the brother of an officer of ours. And the people who came from
4 Sovici afterwards told us that this had happened, and this event was
13 includes the area which counsel now is questioning on. And I think it's
18 gentleman stated on direct examination be wiped off the record and not be
19 considered. They can't have it both ways. On direct he can talk about
22 paragraphs. They chose it. And so I think it's unfair for the
25 MR. SCOTT: Well, sorry, Your Honour, but I want to respond very
11 about the events on the 15th through the 17th of April, 1993. In the
19 Thirdly, the questions that were put to this witness about Sovici
21 had specifically come to his attention; for example, when refugees and
22 people who had escaped from the villages came into Jablanica and gave
23 reports.
1 Thank you.
3 information. The witness wasn't there. It was good enough for the
5 in this Tribunal. Well, now we're trying to rebut some of the hearsay
7 didn't want the gentleman to ask -- for the Defence to ask these
8 questions, they could have avoided asking him for the hearsay information
11 alternative --
15 explain why this question is being put. One of the counsel of the
16 indictment, one of the items -- or, rather, one the paragraphs in the
18 The witness mentioned revenge being taken after Tuta's deputy had been
22 "revenge."
23 But since I have not got enough time to clarify all these details,
24 I'll ask the witness the following. Can we have a look at two documents
25 that concern Sovici and Doljani. The first one is 4D 00447. It's a
1 report from the 44th Mountain Brigade command which says that a commission
3 representatives and HVO representatives arrived in the area. But what I'm
5 of the page.
7 Doljani and Sovici has been agreed on and it will take place tomorrow."
8 The word "an unconditional evacuation has been agreed on" is what
9 interests me.
13 document, because --
15 the report.
17 my file.
22 don't have it. And in order to assist the Judges to see the sentence that
23 I'm interested in, well, it's the 10th line on the screen, and it states
2 A. Yes.
4 repeat it, is: Were you present when Halilovic and Petkovic tried to
6 A. No.
7 Q. No. So you know absolutely nothing about that or do you have some
11 I'd just like to draw your attention to one more thing. In this
12 same document is the very next sentence as follows: "It was noted that
15 direction of Konjic."
17 Q. All right. We can move on. The next document is P 02203, and it
23 Q. Now, the word "green" was used, and I'm going to ask you the
24 following in that regard. Do you agree that this was sent on the 5th of
1 A. Yes.
4 A. Yes.
6 upper right-hand corner, that it arrived on the 5th of May at 1130 hours?
7 A. Probably it's not very legible but I take it that it's correct.
9 saw that a delegation of the two armies, on that particular day, set out
10 towards Konjic, would you agree with me that that same delegation or
15 General Petkovic was in Konjic, was it possible for him to send word to
16 his service in Mostar to ask this about the buses, send this question to
19 A. Why not? He has his deputy, the Chief of Staff, or whatever his
23 independently?
24 A. Yes.
1 the fact that it was a letter sent from Mostar to Doljani; right?
2 A. Yes.
4 General Petkovic himself was not the author of the text and wording
6 A. Quite possibly.
7 Q. Thank you.
12 contrary.
14 learned colleague Mr. Scott reacted because I think the burden of proof is
15 on him and he can prove that General Petkovic from Fojnica dictated this
17 Q. And Mr. Idrizovic -- yes, I'd like to give you some time to expand
18 but I have very little time and I have more questions to ask you.
20 in Prozor, I'd like to comment some of your answers with respect to the
24 by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban, who met in Zagreb on the 24th of
25 April, 24th of April, in the presence of Lord David Owen and the Croatian
2 Tell us, please, Mr. Idrizovic, did you know that on the 24th of
6 about that?
14 joint statement, order all military units of the BH army and HVO to
16 military units are located and where they face each other."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, tell me, was Mr. Alija Izetbegovic in a way the Supreme
20 Commander of the armed forces? I know that there was the collective
21 Presidency.
23 Q. Do you know whether Mate Boban was the Supreme Commander of the
2 Q. Now let's take a look at the end of point 3 of the joint statement
3 where they take note, the highest representatives, if I can put it that
5 the following: That the BH army and the HVO are equally legal units and
8 Q. Now point 5 is the next one I'd like to take a look at. And at
9 line 3 it says, "The signatories of this joint statement conclude that the
11 right? That both sides bear the responsibility -- are to blame for the
12 conflicts; is that right? Is that what Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and Mate
13 Boban say, that the BH army and the HVO have equal responsibility for the
19 army and HVO. And in point 1 of that annex it says, "That the BH army and
20 the HVO will retain their separate identities and command establishment."
22 A. Yes.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you for those answers. Now would you tell us the following:
3 Do you know of the reactions in the BH army to this joint statement? What
7 that time, we were waging war on two sides, and -- well, the conflict was
10 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that the BH army, or at least the
11 members of the BH army whom you knew, that they completely supported and
12 endorsed these conclusions on the legality of the HVO and that the HVO was
14 A. Yes, of course. And there was a provision having the force of law
17 Q. Thank you. Now let us take a look at three more orders on the
19 statement from President Izetbegovic and Boban. And I'd like to take a
22 towards the BH army. The date is the 25th of April, 1993, isn't that
23 right?
24 A. Yes.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now let's see what happens next in the BH army. I had to select
4 the documents, so I'm sorry for not showing them all to you but may we
5 take a look at document 4D 00435 next, please, which is an order from the
6 commander of the 4th Corps, Mr. Arif Pasalic, which once again relates to
8 operations.
9 Are you familiar with this document? Have you seen it before?
10 A. Yes.
12 commander of the 4th Corps, Arif Pasalic. And he warns and states in
13 capital letters that a cease-fire take effect immediately. Have you seen
16 I'm one of the addressees and the Municipal Staff is, then yes. I can't
18 Q. Mr. Idrizovic --
21 if we could be assisted.
5 difficulties. I was not complaining, but I think in all honesty, you must
6 know what we can read and what we cannot read. Otherwise, we cheat you.
12 discussed, and point 1 is says: "I hereby most emphatically caution you
14 and complete cease-fire be effected vis-a-vis the HVO units, and in case
17 Now, since the witness has said that he has probably seen this
19 order with these contents, does that mean that the BH army or, rather, the
20 units of the 4th Corps did not abide by the order issued by their
24 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Idrizovic, I'd like to use the rest of our
2 your answer in full. You said that nobody respected orders. Why was
3 that? Why was Pasalic's order not respected? That's what we're
4 interested in hearing.
6 side or BH side were not put into practice. They were not adhered to in
7 practice on the ground, not the ones before or the ones later. Now, it's
10 either side. Nobody carried out these orders. And this also says that or
11 testifies the fact that Mr. Pasalic really did want to see a cease-fire,
13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Are you aware, sir, of any reactions against the
18 side. They were armies which were -- had been established just a little
21 You have an order signed by Pasalic that was addressed to you which says
23 shoots at an HVO soldier. What did you do in such a case, or what would
24 you do? Would you close your eyes to it, or would you arrest the soldier
2 the units under my command, were a long way away from this. They were in
3 town or around town. So this did not refer to where I was, and I don't
6 officers.
8 April from Pasalic which says "cease-fire". Now, in your particular town,
9 on the 27th of April, was there still shooting going on and, if there was,
13 Jablanica who was responsible. He held the positions facing the HVO. I
16 being blamed very often, but I'm talking about a hypothesis. The person
17 who opens fire is under your command. You arrest such a soldier. Do you
18 draft a report and forward it to the command of the 44th Brigade? Do you
19 forward a report to Mr. Pasalic saying that in compliance with his order
20 certain measures were taken against soldier X who opened fire? What would
21 you say about that? Would you have taken any measures against such a
22 soldier?
24 such a soldier if he'd been a member of mine. There were rules that were
2 this judicial system hadn't been established. The state was in complete
8 provided to the question put to you by Judge Trechsel was very important,
9 and I believe it will help the Judges and everyone else in the court to
11 for violation of orders, you said that both armies were in fact -- or had
12 in fact only just been established, that they hadn't been fully
13 established, and you have also said that the system was in a state of
15 could you just finish the answer you had started giving, please? Or
17 Given that there were two newly-established armies, they had been
18 in existence for perhaps about a year at that time, given that situation,
19 did that reflect on the discipline? Did that influence discipline, the
21 carried out? Did it have an influence on the way in which the army
22 functioned?
24 that you need several years to have an efficient brigade structure. Our
1 weren't up to the tasks that they had to carry out. They weren't up to
2 performing their duties that they should have been performing given their
6 Let me just add this: Sovici and the commander over there often
8 he was no good but if 80 per cent of the soldiers said if he's not the
9 commander, then we won't remain members of the army. And there's no way
11 that? There was no state in existence. Everything was done on the basis
17 Now, could you answer the following: You described the situation
18 that the ABiH was in, and I assume this was not only a situation that the
19 ABiH was in. I believe the HVO was in a similar situation; is that
20 correct?
21 A. More or less.
25 used up 111 minutes, and as you have 135 minutes, that means that you have
6 have, and I know that my colleague from the Coric Defence has 15 minutes.
7 I don't know what the position of Mr. Praljak is and I know Ms. Nozica has
9 that.
11 wants to keep 15 minutes of his time, which means that in theory, you have
16 would say.
19 part of it. The number is 4D 00420. It's a daily report from Tactical
21 Sefer Halilovic. And I'd like to draw your attention to the date. It's
24 the form of units at the ready from neighbouring municipalities. The HVO
25 has taken the Makljen hill, the border between Gornji Vakuf and Prozor.
1 There is tension in the town, and the forces have been deployed in zones.
2 Jablanica has sent in a company to the border of Prozor. All the other
5 and has passed through here -- passed through here at 1900 hours.
9 Platoon and an armoured vehicle from Grude had been allowed to pass
11 at 1620 hours to Gornji Vakuf that they should be stopped and returned to
12 where they had come from. No report has been sent in response."
13 I'll just mention item 4: "Roads from the south have been blocked
14 for all traffic from Jablanica and from the south. The convoy of arms
15 mentioned last night was stopped in Posusje. The total mobilisation was
16 ordered in Konjic and the lining up of all armed persons in the barracks
19 invisible."
21 document from the ABiH, can we conclude that individual army units were
22 sent in the direction of Prozor on the 21st of October, 1992? Can we come
23 to that conclusion?
2 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, let me just tell you something. I'm not asking you
3 about what really happened. At this point in time, I would only like to
4 analyse the document. So, please, tell me, was this something we can
7 But this was never implemented. A company didn't leave for Jablanica and
8 that's why the commander was replaced and I in fact replaced him. That's
9 what I wanted to say. A unit wasn't sent in, but given the order, one
11 Q. Mr. Idrizovic, what you have just said is something that we will
14 number is 4D 00426. Again, it's from the commander of the Tactical Group
20 ago?
21 A. Yes.
24 that you sent troops to Prozor before the 24th of October. So, is the
3 this document mean then? This document, dated 21st of October, 1330
5 document states that you should send in a unit, that you should send a
6 unit to Prozor. You didn't do this then. Have you seen this document or
8 A. Yes, well, no, nothing was done. If I may explain this. This
9 shows that the army was unstable. A Tactical Group 1, with its
11 blockade of Sarajevo. That was its purpose and here it was becoming
15 involved in that. We didn't act in accordance with this order. The staff
16 didn't acted in accordance with this order and that's why the Staff
19 Q. Let's have a look at the document and we'll see why the municipal
23 the second page of that document. I'll read out a small part of the
25 A. Let me just see if this document has a head and a tail, a title
1 and a stamp.
3 4D 00419.
7 Q. I will read out part of it. "Our unit couldn't carry out the task
10 losses. And engaging the unit in this way would result in blocking the
11 routes and would make it impossible to evacuate the wounded and killed,
12 the wounded and refugees from Prozor. Engaging our units in the direction
13 towards Prozor opens up the possibility for the HVO forces to carry out an
16 Is this the explanation of the commander for the -- does this say
18 Prozor?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said that the commander of the
25 company, some 150 or so people, but what did he -- did it signify here?
6 It's an order from the deputy chief of the Supreme Command Staff of the
7 armed forces. So we're talking about Sefer Halilovic's deputy, Mr. Jovan
11 out an order to send unit to assist the Municipal Staff in Prozor. And
15 the conflict."
16 Mr. Idrizovic, so this document shows the reasons for which the
19 intervene? Item 1 states that Salko Zeren did not carry out the order,
20 operative number one, of the deputy of the chief of the Main Staff of the
3 so I wasn't really following the question and answer, but I wanted to ask
5 order --
13 Q. Do you know that Mr. Jovo Divjak was detained because he had
17 least and others who worked with me are not clear about all of this. All
18 those who are were arrested, imprisoned were released. And there is some
19 speculation about that event. There was this attempt made in Parsovici in
20 the Neretvica valley and the commander of the 45th Mountain Brigade, but
21 what happened there, what they're trying to do, I really don't know. And
22 I don't have any documents or I've never seen any documents about that.
1 question. It's 12.30. We will now have our technical break, and I will
2 ask the legal officer to calculate the time together with the registrar,
3 the time remaining for the other Defence teams, in light of the time that
4 has been granted by some Defence teams to others, and I'd also like to
5 point out that General Petkovic's Defence has now completed its
6 cross-examination.
11 say something.
13 understand it's highly unlikely that we'll finish the witness today in any
14 event unfortunately. And secondly, I'm also aware that at 1.45 we all
16 the end -- end of the session. Just so that everyone is advised, and I'm
20 won't go into the details now. I'm just putting everyone -- I'm just
22 measures.
23 Secondly, Your Honour, the first witness on Monday, again, I'm not
2 second week set -- sorry, the second witness set for next week, it's quite
5 may be able to start the second witness next week on Monday. Thank you.
10 Defence of Mr. Coric will also have 15 minutes and Mr. Stojic's Defence
11 has 15 minutes. No, I'm sorry, 30 minutes. And Mr. Praljak's Defence has
13 representing Mr. Pusic, has 15 minutes. Those are the calculations. That
14 would give us enough time to hear two more Defence counsel because we have
15 15 minutes for one and half an hour for another. That will take us up to
18 think there has been some mistake because we had an initial 45 minutes of
19 which we gave 10 minutes to the Prlic team which means that we have 35
20 minutes left.
22 brilliant capacity to synthesize things, I'm sure you will be able to get
3 showing a document to this witness that Counsel Alaburic didn't have time
5 Stojic bundle.
7 document from the BH army, the 4th Corps command. The document is dated
8 the 25th of December, 1992, and we have the stamp of the Supreme Command
10 the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command. In person it says, Mr. Sefer
12 the 23rd of December, 1992. May we take a look at page 2 so that we can
13 see it is signed by Mr. Arif Pasalic. And I'm going to start off by
14 reading the first paragraph, as soon as we get the second page on the
15 screens. Can you see the signature, Witness, Mr. Arif Pasalic's
16 signature.
17 A. Yes.
19 paragraph 1. And it says the following, "On the 2nd of December, 1992, at
21 Zejnil Delalic, Mr. Jovo Divjak was arrested. The reason that the
22 above-mentioned measures were taken was that they were acting on the
24 Konjic municipality had perpetrated a number of criminal acts and that Mr.
1 creation of hostilities and conflicts among the Muslim and Croatian people
2 in the area."
4 this text, and you were asked this by my colleague before the break,
5 whether you agree with me when I say that from this document it is clearly
6 evident that Mr. Divjak was arrested and procedure taken because of
8 A. That's what it says here but I can't confirm that because I think
9 that you, too, have in your possession a series of documents signed by Mr.
11 Q. Well, I assume that Mr. Arif Pasalic knows the situation better
13 that further. We've seen the document and I'll move on.
14 You've already said today, sir, and you said it yesterday, that
15 during 1992, within the composition of the BH armed forces, there was also
17 A. Yes.
24 and you will have it in your bundle. You have the numbers at the side.
2 1992, and signed by the chief Valentin Coric. That is what it says in
3 printed letters, but his deputy signed it, but that's not important. I'd
4 like to read out the first paragraph once again which reads as follows:
8 vehicles to move around and members of the TO BiH on the territory of the
12 From this document we can see, and I think that you'll agree with
13 me there, that the municipalities quote where the HVO municipalities did
15 Gornji Vakuf are the ones mentioned. Now, the municipalities that I've
16 just read out, are they municipalities that were characteristic by the
17 fact that they had an ethnically-mixed population and some of them had a
19 A. Yes.
21 those municipalities that were inhabited or, rather, the person issuing
1 right?
2 A. No.
5 Q. Who issued these permits then? Who took care about where people
6 were going, where there was a majority population -- Muslim population and
8 that?
11 A. If somebody was a recruit and wanted to leave the area, leave the
12 territory, not because of the HVO check-points but because of the BH army
14 might have spent 10 or 15 days on duty there and then had -- wanted to go
15 back on leave. Now, in order to ensure that our army check-points didn't
16 prevent such people from passing through them and ensuring that these
18 Q. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you and hear from you although I
21 as I was able to understand you at the same time, we had the existence of
23 existence with its own military police, and there was the military police
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Tell me now, please, how many members did this MUP have, the MUP
4 Q. Thank you. And what about the Territorial Defence, how many
8 A. The military police had people from the corps. For example, 50 at
9 most from our municipality. The military police was established at the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, do you know how many members the HVO in Jablanica had headed
14 by Mr. Livaja?
17 Now, tell me, please, do you know whether the HVO had their
21 periods of time --
22 JUDGE PRANDLER: I have already many times told you please, do not
23 kill the interpreters -- said kill all the lawyers but now we don't want
24 to kill the interpreters. So, please, kindly wait for each other to
3 you.
4 A. At the beginning, I'm not quite sure that it existed within the
6 Later on -- well, no, I really can't say. I can't answer that question
7 because that formation was something I never liked very much, I mean the
8 military police. I never liked any military police. They were all of
11 Q. I'm going to show you a document later on and I'm going to remind
12 you of who the members of the military police were. Now, in answer to a
13 question from my colleague Ms. Alaburic, you mentioned Zuka's units and
14 then the Silver Foxes, or Srebrni Lisicit, then Cedo's units and the
16 you about any of these, is that the Green Berets turned up; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
20 A. No.
22 not?
24 Q. Do you know whether these same Green Berets already in June, 1992,
1 the military police building, for instance? That happened on the 19th of
4 Q. Tell me, please, Zuka's units, when they arrived, you told us on
5 several occasions that you testified in the Tuta and Stela trial, so I
6 took a look at what you said there, your testimony there. So I'd like to
7 refresh your memory, rather, ask you whether you remember that when you
8 testified there you said that Zuka's unit numbered about 400 men.
9 A. Yes. Well, I didn't know the exact figure, but when it was up to
11 Q. I think that in that same statement of yours, apart from all the
12 problems that were raised today linked to them, it was also stated that
13 the members of that unit would evict Croats from their houses and flats
14 and that they would move into them, take up residence in those same
15 houses. That's what you said in Tuta and Stela, so I'm asking you now.
18 happened?
20 Q. That's enough for me. Thank you. Now tell me this: Do you
21 happen to know that these Zuka's unit -- units or unit, among other
22 things, evicted the HVO military police from their building. Do you know
24 A. No. I can't say that that did not happen, but I don't know about
25 it.
1 Q. When in Tuta and Stela you said that the Main Staff commanded
2 Zuka's unit and that they were more numerous and better armed than you,
3 better trained than you and better equipped than you, younger and stronger
4 than you --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- that you were not able to stand up to them, that you were no
9 special assignments.
11 tell me if my conclusion is the right one, that you were simply no match
12 for them?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Fine. So apart from these Zuka's units, you also had another --
15 you also had problems with refugees from Jajce, from Prozor, from Eastern
20 from Foca. They came from all parts. And quite a lot from our own
21 refugees from Jablanica, from Doljani, Sovici, Slatina and Prozor. And
23 Q. Tell me, please, when you say that you had problems with them, did
1 Q. Well, someone might get drunk and start shooting round town and
2 causing disturbances.
3 A. You mean of the refugees. Well, that was the general sort of
4 thing that happened. There was sporadic shooting. Well, everybody shot.
5 Daidza's men would shoot, our men would start shooting. Those were the
6 times.
7 Q. Let us now take a look at document P 00952, please. You have the
8 document, I think.
11 the traffic military police, dated the 24th of December, 1992, and it is a
13 incidents that took place and I'd like to read out the third paragraph.
18 individuals also from Prozor, they were responsible, who had recently
19 taken part in the fighting in Prozor." So tell me, did you hear of these
20 incidents?
21 A. Yes.
24 Q. Excellent. Let's move on. Tell me this now, please: I know that
25 everybody ran wild at the time and did a lot of shooting, and I just
1 happened to focus on the problems caused by the Muslim side because I know
2 that you'll be better informed about those incidents than some other
3 incidents. But when you -- and you have military education and training.
7 to preserve law and order; is it not? And when I say this, I mean, the
9 saying that?
11 the entrance and exit of people and goods, not for public law and order.
12 Q. Yes, but that was a way of controlling public law and order.
16 It's been signed by the chief, Valentin Coric, but his deputy signed on
17 his behalf. It's dated the 13th of January, 1993. I don't want to read
18 through the entire document. Everyone can do that for themselves. But it
21 they can only have weapons on that occasion. So can this be checked at
22 check-points?
23 A. Yes.
25 0195. P 01095.
1 Again, it's an order from Valentin Coric, signed in the same way,
2 dated the 11th of January, 1993, and it's prohibiting entry into the
3 territory of the HZ and HB, and this concerns all foreigners whose
9 obligation, and it was said that there were deserters who even disguised
10 themselves as women. I think that's how you said that they avoided their
11 military or work obligation. One way for any of the sides to control the
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When mobilisation is being carried out or when all those who are
17 fit have to perform their military or work obligation, then I assume that
18 without authorisation from the relevant authorities, they may not leave
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. I have one more question now with regard to the
3 don't want to go through all of them now. But Risovac was under HVO
4 control. Aleksin Han, Ostrozac and Velacici was under the control of the
6 A. Yes.
8 documents about that. Aleksin Han was under the control of the
11 A. I'm not sure whether it was the military police or not, but it was
14 Split, then I believe that a representative of the MUP from Bosnia and
16 municipality.
18 Q. Yes. Yes. I then assume that all the information about that
19 event was given by them to the individuals who went to pick them up, the
21 A. Yes.
25 A. Yes, probably.
1 Q. Very well. And tell me, in 1992 and right up to March, 1993,
3 else, you in Jablanica, your military police and the HVO military police,
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell me, do you know that in February and March there were even
10 joint controls over the HVO military police and the Territorial Defence
11 military police?
14 screen: 5D 02007. It's a report on the work of the HVO military police
15 in Jablanica. The period is the 28th of February, 1993, up until the 3rd
16 of March, 1993. We can have a look at the next page. The title
17 is "Patrol service." Can you see the second page, sir? Second paragraph,
18 and it says that at the time that a curfew was introduced, and it says as
19 of 2100 hours, joint patrols have been carried out with members of the MUP
21 A. Yes.
23 A. Yes, it is.
25 isn't your primary concern, but the Prosecution asked you about Prozor, so
1 I will too.
2 A. Try.
4 your testimony, you said that refugees from Prozor started arriving even
5 before the conflict in Prozor broke out in October. There were women and
6 children who arrived there, and they came because they were afraid because
8 A. Yes.
12 documents that relate to Prozor, and I would now like to ask you whether
13 you are aware of the Alfa and Beta plans, which were plans for the defence
15 A. No.
18 A. Well --
21 Q. I'll now show you two documents and then I'll ask you something
24 too. It's a defence plan for the municipality of Prozor. The date is --
25 it can't be seen clearly but I think it's the 1st of September, 1992.
1 Let's have a look at the last two paragraphs which say the
3 cooperation with units from the HVO and in accordance with the attached
7 Jablanica. And it also says: "In accordance with the attached document
8 Beta." It's been signed. This document has been signed by the commander
9 Muharem Sabic.
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. Tell me, at the time that this document concerns there was no
15 conflict in Prozor?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. When you have a look at these two paragraphs that I've read out,
18 plan Alfa and plan Beta, as someone who knows about military matters, it's
19 obvious that the person who drafted this document referred to the Beta
20 plan, and he had in mind the situation in which the HVO would become his
22 A. Yes.
1 A. Yes, yes.
3 concerns a conflict between the HVO and the ABiH in the territory of
5 We can have a look at the fourth paragraph. Can you please read
7 document. The fourth paragraph describes the plans Alfa and Beta. And
8 let's have a look at the third paragraph from below, and this paragraph
9 says units from other parts of Gornji Vakuf were included in this plan,
10 and it also says units of the armed forces of the ABiH in Jablanica.
12 translation, too, the last paragraph in the English translation. It's the
17 fate of the action and then some fled towards Gracanica and others towards
21 A. Yes.
23 Alaburic, if you bear them in mind, and if you bear the documents that I
24 have just shown you in mind, in the action that the Territorial Defence of
25 Jablanica did not participate in, and this concerned the breakthrough
3 A. It's the first time I've heard about this plan, so I couldn't
5 Q. But you heard that someone from Jablanica was supposed to go with
9 Q. But you heard that this should have been done but wasn't done; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes.
15 congratulate you because you did not overstep your time limit, and I'd
19 questions will relate to exclusively what the witness -- the answers the
23 you the following: You told the Prosecutor that you became the
25 that? When did you become the top-ranking officer, the commander of the
1 Territorial Defence?
5 established.
7 A. After the 21st of January, 1993, I -- and I said this before; you
8 probably weren't following what I was saying. But anyway, I said that the
9 staff remained with 200 men, and their sole purpose was to provide
10 security for the facilities, and I told you the reasons for which the
11 brigade was established, and from the previous documents that were shown
12 here today it is evident what the command structure was like for the
13 4th Corps.
14 Q. And you remained the Staff Commander with those 200 men?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you had your subordinates, and I assume that the 4th Corps was
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, these 200 men provided security for the most important
21 A. Yes.
23 about what was going on in Jablanica, and you said several times that your
25 but you had to know what went on in your own house. Isn't that right?
1 A. Of course.
2 Q. I'm sure you had an officer who kept you informed about events
3 that they -- it held briefings with the president of the municipality, the
7 Q. But anyway, you learnt of all the important events that were
8 happening in town, and you learnt of anything that might cause a problem,
10 A. Yes.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Asked by my learned colleague, and you didn't say this during your
14 testimony, you said that the refugees were accommodated in the museum.
17 A. Yes.
19 A. Yes, there was something like that. The military police company,
20 first of all, of the 1st and of the 6th Corps, and then -- well, in fact
21 they were down there as far as the prisoners of war were concerned. They
23 Q. Tell us, please, were they prisoners of war and refugees together?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Tell us where the prisoners of war were put up and where the
3 A. I'm not -- perhaps you won't believe me, but I entered that
4 facility only once during the four years of the war, and that was towards
5 the end of the year, the end of -- or, rather, the beginning of 1993.
7 A. Where who was put up, all I know is that the Croat refugees were
8 put up in this building that was a glass building, so you could see
9 inside. They were glass partitions, and you could see that the Croat
10 refugees, when you looked towards the entrance, they were to the left of
11 the building, which is where the trophy room was. What could you call it
13 Q. Can you tell us how far the museum is from your headquarters?
16 many times?
17 A. I've already told you, the refugees from Stolac and Capljina were
19 and in other buildings. So all the available buildings and premises were
20 used for that purpose, if you're talking about 1993. I'm not -- so 600
21 refugees were there. There was the military police and there was this
22 prison probably where the prisoners -- HVO prisoners of war were put up.
24 right? 400 to 500 metres away from the cinema; right? And the Croat
6 A. Well, it might have been, but I'm not sure of the exact number. I
8 Q. Well, where do you get this number from, then, this information
9 from?
12 charge, the military police of the 6th Corps that is in charge of the
13 prisoners of war, and this office for refugees should be in charge of the
20 have no idea. I didn't like to go anywhere where people were being held
21 and incarcerated.
23 6D 00035, the following document. We have a hard copy for the Bench.
24 Would the usher like to come up and collect it and hand it to them,
25 please.
2 A. Yes.
4 battalion of the military police of the 4th Corps, Jablanica, the 5th of
5 August, 1993. The commander of the military police company was -- what
7 A. Well, I'm not sure. I can't tell you. There were a lot of shifts
9 Q. So it says the military police battalion of the 6th corps and then
10 we have a list of names. What does it say here? Subject is the list of
11 persons -- you read it out, please. Read out what it says underneath the
12 heading.
16 Q. Would you read it out, what it says? What does it say? A list of
17 persons to be found in the SRZ Jablanica museum who were not members of
19 A. Yes.
21 A. Well, I can't see on the screen. I can't see the last number on
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm asking you now whether the department for refugees should have
3 been responsible for these people? I claim that these were people
8 that in the town where you held the highest military post that 87 persons
9 were held, of which 55 were women. What explanation can you give us with
17 to deal with this. This wasn't part of their duties, and the people who
18 were from Doljani or who were brought from Doljani to the museum weren't
19 detainees. They hadn't been imprisoned. They had free access to other
21 felt, well, that's a different matter. I don't think they felt good.
22 It's not necessary to point that out. If some wanted to go out, well,
23 that was up to them, but, this wasn't a facility they had been imprisoned
24 in. Living conditions were very difficult, as was the case for everyone
25 else. There's no doubt about that. So I'm surprised that the military
1 police battalion compiled such a list and dealt with civilians, because
4 transcript.
7 think it's left the live screen now, but at page 110 at line 9, at least
8 it's put into the record, the question was put by counsel. I looked at
11 Your Honour, that's not what the document says. The top of the
12 document, which counsel referred the witness, says people who were not
16 the floor.
18 to read this out, but I'll read it out aloud so the interpreters can
22 Muzej, but they were not members of the HVO. This shows that they were
23 civilians, and on the whole, the individuals concerned are women. I'm
2 clarify something. When you say "SRZ" in your language, this means centre
11 now.
13 received this document from the Prosecution. That's what I'd like to
14 point out. And since Mr. Scott has just asked about the museum in
16 Q. In the course of your testimony, you said that you could speak
17 about events up to the 15th of April, 1993, but that there were other
18 people who were more capable of talking about the events after that date.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is one of the reasons for that statement the fact that there is
23 A. Well, look. The corps military police battalion, well no one had
25 that battalion. None of us had any control over the corps commander.
8 up to the 15th of April. Have a look at the date on this document. You
11 see, there are another two Defence teams who haven't had time for their
12 cross-examination yet, which means that tomorrow, you will have to return
13 for the hearing that will start at 9.00. But rest assured, the Defence
15 Judges aren't too talkative, everything should be over for you by 10.00.
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