Mike Sigman Admin · November 28 at 9:46 AM

6H, Qi, Jin, Yoga, Dantian, Energy Fields, & Subtle Bodies

I'm sort of dithering about starting a new forum that explores the similarities and overlaps of qigongs,
6H movement, Yogic stuff, etc. So I'm going to throw it out there to chew over.

I'd want to try and restrict (aka "be able to choose") the membership to be sure that we don't wind up
with a bunch of lurkers who are just "interested in reading about the topic" .. we can find neighborhood
nosey-bodies pretty easily, thanks.

That said, I don't know much about Yoga. Then again, I don't know much about Taijiquan, either, to be
honest ... I'm just an admitted amateur investigator who, unfortunately, often knows a bit more than
the western guys hanging out the "advanced grandmaster" shingle. I don't know much about Yoga, but
I'm beginning to think that I understand the basic theories better than most western "Yoga Teachers"
wearing skin-tight yoga pants (god bless'em).

What I think is that the ancient Indians and the ancient Chinese were aware of a way to utilize some
aspects of the involuntary-muscular system in conjunction with the subconscious mind. Between yogic
knowledged and qigong knowledge, I think there is an opportunity to capture a larger-picture
understanding of the whole body system that is the qi and prana paradigm. I think it might be
worthwhile exploring, at least temporarily.

Samuel Johnson (look him up) once said something to the effect that whenever he threw a dinner-party
in olde London, he, as host, would always toss out the topic of sex as something for people to talk about.
The reason he said that he did that was because "sex" was the one topic that everyone was sure they
had some new and meaningful insights to toss into the discussion. Hence, a successful dinner party.

The problem with some of the talk forums on the internet is that a lot of people want to join into the
discussion as a social gratification and they're sure that they have conversation/chat inputs that are
important. Maybe ... but often, maybe not. I'm not looking for people to blather because they once took
Yoga or some Asian martial-art from their Brit/German/American pal some years ago and they heard
such-and-such. I'd like a bit more refined reasoning than "I took Aikido once, so let me tell you my
views". ;) I'd like a bit deeper thought than that, please.

But anyway, I'm not sure the idea is feasible, but if it is feasible, it probably should be separated from
this forum and the others, just to keep the threads from becoming hopelessly entangled.

It's just an idea. I'm not just looking for fulfillment in talking about things ... I'm personally looking for
substantive information or else I wouldn't be on any of these forums. If I don't get information on any
forum, I ultimately leave it because I'm not a social chatterer at heart. So what do you think?

Another thought, BTW, is that we could set a forum up under the aegis of someone else with fairly good
yoga/physical-movement credentials and let them be the boss. That way, if there are people interested
in maintaining the discussion, but I see only a dead end for my original goals, I can leave quietly.

Thoughts?

Bogdan Heretoiu My thoughts are as such: I agree that you understand more about Yoga than most of
the young and sexy teachers selling it out there. For sure. As per yoga members, that's worse than the
internet internal forums, generally speaking. I enjoy your writing, and many times you hit it beautifully
precise in terms of language. I think it's a tall order to find someone in Yoga to do the same. I'm by far
not an expert, although I have been studying since I was about 12-13. But the overlaps are clear to me.
Many come from cultural overlaps, and many from down to earth physiology overlap. I am interested
exclusively on the ladder, as that's what can be actually applied. But I'm really interested to see how
people explore these overlaps, for sure.

Christopher T Payne Very interested in. Learning not lurking

Mike Sigman Yeah, but be realistic ... I don't want people who can't contribute to the conversation.
There ... I've tried to say it clearly.

Christopher T Payne Mike Sigman that DOES not mean I won't contribute. I do a lot of reading and
experimenting on my own in other things.

Tom Osborn [Warning: each paragraph is like a different post/thought]:

I'm married to a yoga teacher (so I'm sometimes the guinea pig). It's mostly lycra-free small groups
(no,not naked) and restorative, plus conditioning. The factions and marketing spin in yoga (in my
observation) is probably much like TJQ. Even the big name Indian families had/have factions. New age
has a big foot print. Definitely not all bad. Definitely health, strength, mental state (usually).

Overlap with neijia would be in breathing, accepting a load/weight, relative slowness, relations, good
posture (?). The root sanskrit word yoga means "yoke" (or accept a load or burden without emotional
struggling).

The chakras, energy lines and meditation may line up with qigong, but in my 'lengthy but limited'
experiences there are lots of differences and branched off ideas. Ie, Would a forums contribute to 6H
practice and validation of what works and what's going on? I'd expect a high noise level.

One real benefit is more practice = more understanding. The postures are challenges, so there is
identifiable progress. Ie, tangible ways to know improvement.

Probably the best yoga practitioner (he rarely teaches) I know was an acrobat, clown, circus performer,
theatre academic, USN, clear thinker. If you start a forum on this, I'll try to link him in.

Last comment: Yoga posture contrasts with neijia posture in uprightness of the chest (eg, see randomly
selected pic), which is probably incompatible with 6H stances/movement. At least for beginners (ie,
which we are). Understanding one well and then the other would probably be a better way to go.

I'd probably ask to join, but don't want to get into scraps...
Mike Sigman Tom, one comment I'd make immediately is that I know people who have "40 years of
experience in Taijiquan". That doesn't mean, to me, that they have any clue about the real fundamentals
of Taijiquan. Most of them can't even show basic jin, when you meet them, which means (I hate to say
it) that they have not the slightest idea about what Taijiquan is all about.

Practice does not make perfect ... only correct and meaningful practice can ever make perfect. So "more
practice" does not make "more understanding". Part of the discussion topic would be to show/discuss
the overlaps in parallels and they're more than the ones that you listed above. OTOH, you have always
been the bit in the mouth, so you'd be welcome. ;)

Tom Osborn My mention of the best practitioner I know should have also said he travelled and
challenged explanations and understanding, and sought clarification, open-minded, but "show me". He
tends to leave talk of 'energy bodies' alone when it's fluffy talk.

Reminds me a bit of you.

Tom Osborn And yes, 40 years of pretending to be a tree, etc. Seen that.

Mike Sigman Fine ... if we do this, bring him on, Tom. Even if he's from Oz. ... we'll just speak more
slowly. ;)

Tom Osborn Mike Sigman He's from Pittsburg originally...

Mike Sigman Tom Osborn: Pittsburgh is pretty bad, but we could probably allow for his ignorance and
lack of education, just to show how high-minded we truly are. ;)

Fine, that works for me.

Ignatius Teo I'm interested. Count me in. Started yoga a few months ago, so I'm not even an initiate.
Happy to share any observations and thoughts as well.

Steve Chan I have an interest, but I am not sure I have much to contribute. From what I've gathered, the
Indian systems seem to focus on the central channel, rather than the ren/du meridians of Chinese
qigong. There is also significantly more active manipulation of the energy flow in directions that Chinese
systems might consider to be "unnatural", which, if handled improperly, can leave your body in an
unpleasant state - this seems to be avoided in a lots of the native Chinese systems, precisely because it
is considered risky.
Chan(Zen) Buddhism is based heavily on the original Indian Yogacara school, and you might guess from
the "Yoga" in Yogacara, it was understood that the meditation practice was yogic in nature. I believe
that this a shared understanding with the current Theravadan schools of Buddhism. And if you practice
meditation in the traditional fashion, you eventually become very aware of the energy channels in your
body - not through visualization, or education, but because you directly experience it, without
prompting, cues or suggestion. My understanding is that this is how the energy meridians were
"discovered" in the first place. The interesting thing is that this entirely non-scientific, feelings based
approach has been reproducible for so long. But it also explains why there are sometimes differences in
how the meridians are drawn - individual physical variations seem to play a role.

I believe the Tibetan branches of Buddhism have lots of yogic practices - the Tantric stuff that was
assimilated into late Indian Buddhism, and then evacuated to Tibet has explicit mention of yogic
practices around semen retention as a means of determining one's spiritual development. I don't know
much about that stuff, its a can of worms (sometimes toxic worms) with potentially many gold nuggets
buried somewhere in the can.

Mike Sigman Nice, Steve, but that's all part of the discussions that I think we need to have, so I don't
want to argue/debate things prematurely.

Kwame Daniel I would be interested. I've been doing yoga for several years and recently started
teaching after completing a teacher training. I'm not so much a practitioner of the "hippy-dippy" chakras
and chanting variety, more of a movement focused type.
My CMA has been slacking lately as I've focused more on yoga and acrobatic stuff, but I would certainly
be keen to get involved.

Pierre Wong Mike , I have been doing ba duan jin for a couple years now. My focus has been
incorporating ideas from your 6h, pole shaking and silk reeling forum. I wouldn't mind sharing my
experiences since the wing chun forums I participate in don't really touch on this subject.

Gregg Fischer Been practicing yoga as a compliment to my Taiji for a a fes years now. Mainly for the
stretching and opening. Many similaritie, but also many differences. They do work well with each other
as long as you understand the differences.

Tammo Trantow My aikido research is heavily influenced by my yoga and 6H studies. So I have a natural
inclination to find connections between these.
For my yogic practice: I study in an old Indian lineage of hatha. There is a very clear but not always easy
to understand philosophy behind it, which is surprisingly undogmatic.

What I think necessary, if there would be a separate forum, is to be clear what is going to be discussed.
Yoga, essentially, is not about posture or breath retention, but about controlling the mind. So I believe,
we’re not going to talk about dantien controlled movement patterns on one side and postures on the
other, but focus on the 3 internal harmonies and possible connections between these and different
yogic practices.

Tom Osborn A good discussion can follow from Tammo's comment. I have a different (but not opposing)
view, but let's leave it for the new forum.
Tammo Trantow Tom, let’s not start it like that:) If you view it differently, maybe debate?

Tom Osborn Tammo, I need to describe the interplay between the physical demands of postures and
breathing/etc, in relation to the mental. They go together. Progress comes from accepting physical
challenges and working them out, which is where the mental comes in.

Tammo Trantow If I understand you correctly, you're basically talking about Hatha Yoga. So, where is
this different from what I proposed, except that you're proposing to take the discussion one step
further?

Tom Osborn Tammo one step further. And the necessity of the physical challenge. Meditation (alone) as
a path gets stuck IMHO.

Tammo Trantow Tom, without getting too far into the topic (otherwise Mike will scold us): Hatha, Raj,
Bhakti or Karma Yoga are all paths to the same goal. Hatha Yoga and its physical demands, like you say,
is the Yoga we should be discussing here, in all its facets that are likely to be relevant to our topic. But
IMO, a part of the problem of Yoga today is, that its nearly always mentioned as synonym to physical
gymnastics with a bit of breathing and OM chanting (not indicating you might belong to that group
BTW.). Thats why I try to be as specific as possible here.....

Tom Osborn Tammo Trantow Yes, agree. my yoga experience (essentially hatha) goes from physical
demands, but that opens the way to sorting out breathing (prana and the dynamics that go with it),
mental, awareness, maybe glimmers of ananda. And it's the main link (but not only one) with neijia
interests. I'm in the Qigong Yoga group now, so discussion migration? :-)

Graham Taylor I practiced shadow yoga for a year or two a few years ago, which I think is a form of
hatha yoga. I heard rumour (I think on the old qijin forum) that the chap who created it read a bunch of
old yoga texts but also did a bunch of qigong training in China and brought some of this in. There was
definitely some stuff that looked like qigongs and the primary focus for some time was opening up the
hips/groin and building relaxed stable leg strength. I think there's a lot of potential cross over but yoga
does seem to be as heavily buzz worded and woo woo. Discussions could be bent towards 6H but it
would like Tammo says not be the main focus for yoga.

As for new group, I barely have the experiential knowledge to contribute on this group... (though I still
should, I know...)

Ingo Augsten I'd lurk ;)

Ingo Augsten Actually I consider to start some Yoga some day (complements rock climbing and desk job
pretty well), and it's better to have an informed start for choice of teacher, resources, etc.

Martin Qvist I would definitely ask Simon Thakur for input

Aric Fowler lurking :)

Mike Sigman I'll put something together and let people know when it's ready.

Bob Mooney While I would find the forum interesting, I have next to zero experience with yogic
movement, pretty sure I’d lurk. 😁
Nauka Trantow For me as a new member to this Group, it would be more interesting. I am a Yoga
Practitioner since nearly 16 Years and am teaching since 4-5 Years and very interested in Internal
Strength from the Point of view of You Guys. The Reason don't comment a lot is that I often simply don't
even know what You talk about. So I think I would be better fitting in the other Group. I already thought
about leaving this 6H Group because I see the Point not participating in Diskussions or sharing
Experiences is not what You intended with this Group.

Tom Osborn Nauka, I'd suggest staying in 6H. I think an attentive yoga person would probably get the 6H
more quickly, and the new group (I expect) will dwell more on "compare and contrast". To me, the
prana and the qi are about the same thing, but are approached differently by practitioners and
progression. Likewise, yoga postures (often) have a more extended body ("stretched") and neijia more
"linked up" and are mobile. The 3 external H's and the torso in between are common to yoga and neijia.
So, 6H lurking and sometimes asking questions there is not wasted time. [IMHO].

Nauka Trantow :D thanx

Ingo Augsten Nauka Trantow I think you could probably understand more of the talk, when yoga-lingo is
used, since you know that.

Nauka Trantow Yes probably :D

Nauka Trantow Bai hui- hui Jin... Huiuiui :D

Nauka Trantow I want to point out, that i- as a female Yoga Teacher - am not that kind of physical and
spiritual Gymnastic Person. I try do practice and teach actual Yoga. No Brand, no Style. Breath based.