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Burning Out Machine Gun Barrels

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by superbee, May 15, 2013.
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Just to complete the picture does anyone know how much does a German 250 round ammo box weight?
BTW I apparently got a couple of things wrong in my calculations, while the generic formula still looks sound the MG 42 usually used a
50 round belt not a 60 rounds one, though a 250 one also existed and suggested barrel change was at 250 rounds not 180. The end
result doesn't change much though.
TiredOldSoldier Truth is the first victim of conflict

Ace
TiredOldSoldier, Aug 8, 2014 #41
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gtblackwell said:
I would think the M60 and MG 42 rounds would be fairly close ballistically. The 7.62X64, is that correct ????( the 30-06) would seem to have a slight
edge because of case length but modern powders may equal that out . In combat I doubt any difference would be noticed and the effective range
should be similar.
Actually it's the 7.62 x 51mm NATO or just 7.62 NATO. The round is similar ballistically to the 30-06, and you are correct it is due to more
USMCPrice modern powder. As for comparing the 7.62 NATO or 30-06 to the 7.92 x 57 Mauser, they look to have similar performance, but if you go
Idiot at Large
out to a lot of ammo websites you'll see heated debates about which is superior. I think that most of those advocating for the 7.92 Mauser
Joined: Nov 15, 2009 are pretty much just German fanboys, based upon their arguments. Conversely, a good many advocating the 30-06 believe anything
Messages: 4,617 made in "Merica" is superior. I don't personally think there's enough of a difference to have much of an effect across the full spectrum of
Likes Received: 1,656 the rounds employment. I do agree with you that useable effective ranges in combat would probably be similar, with the skill of the
Location: God's Country individual gunner being the biggest determinate of how effective the gun was employed, and at what ranges.
I think KodiacBeer would probably be the most knowledgeable on the ballistic comparison of the rounds. Maybe we'll be lucky and have
him add his two cents.
"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you f**k with me, I'll kill you all."Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
"Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary."Gen. Alfred Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps
-VOS HIC INTRATIS OMNEM SPEM RELINQUITE-
USMCPrice, Aug 8, 2014 #42
I think KodiacBeer would probably be the most knowledgeable on the ballistic comparison of the rounds. Maybe we'll be lucky and have him add his
two cents.
I agree with your input. To put them in civilian terms, the .308, 30.06 and 8mm Mauser are close enough in performance that the
differences are negligible. The heavier 8mm round had slightly greater energy at long range, but I don't think anyone hit at 1000 yards
would know the difference.
KodiakBeer
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A Kodiak Bear Mauling (shameless plug): http://www.amazon.com/Kodiak-Bear-Mauling-Living-Alaskas/dp/1470082896/ref=tmm_pap_title_0
Joined: Nov 20, 2012 KodiakBeer, Aug 8, 2014 #43

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Location: The Arid Zone
Ten second barrel change sounds fast in battle. Those are F-1 numbers...
USMCP should write a book. Really enjoyed that. Even sell a bit to Guns and Ammo. I'd buy that.
Sustained rate: Actual rate of fire that a weapon can continue to deliver for an indefinite length of time without seriously overheating.
(Army) - Or without doing other mechanical damage to the weapon or weapon system. (See also maximum rate of fire.)
Poppy I did not know the definition.

grasshopper
Patron Is it possible to adjust a machine gun to fire at 100 rpm, or is that 3 round burst setting, or single shot?
Joined: Apr 9, 2008
Severloh must have had a sore trigger finger. (not making light of a serious thingy)
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Poppy, Aug 8, 2014 #44
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Might be possible to jimmy it...the SLR could be with a match stick, to make it full auto... : )
I try to be the man my dog thinks i am...

CAC
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CAC, Aug 8, 2014 #45
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The BAR could be adjusted to shoot as low as 250 rounds per minute. There would be little point in going much slower than that since it
could just be fired semi-auto.
I wonder how few rounds a trained gunner could get off with an MG42. I doubt even the best gunner could get off a single shot, but
maybe a quick 3 or 5 round burst?

KodiakBeer
Member
KodiakBeer, Aug 9, 2014 #46
Joined: Nov 20, 2012
Messages: 6,150
I have not heard of the phenomena with small arms,
Ofhhand I know of one example, albeit an early one - the Lee-Metford in the Boer War had a tendancy to very rapid wear of the edges of
the three groves in the barrel - which is why the Lee Enfield saw the change to six grooves IIRC...
But then the Lee Enfield, with its change to cordite propellant, saw corrosion of the edges of the lands unless regularly cleaned and
phylo_roadking ASAP after use...
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Joined: Oct 16, 2010 Sometimes you just can't win...

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"Et Dick tracy, il est mort? Et Guy LeClair?"
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phylo_roadking, Aug 9, 2014 #47
Poppy said:
Is it possible to adjust a machine gun to fire at 100 rpm, or is that 3 round burst setting, or single shot?
Severloh must have had a sore trigger finger. (not making light of a serious thingy)
You don't adjust the gun (in most cases), the gunner controls the rate of fire by the number of rounds in the burst and the pause between
bursts. We trained our gunners to try for 3-5 and 6-9 round bursts. That's why you fire so much in training, so you learn to fire 3-5 rounds
USMCPrice or 6-9 habitually without thinking, you do it automatically. Same-same with the pause, you learn a rhythm, you don't actually sit there and
Idiot at Large
count 1000, 2000. (though you do an actual physical count when jumping; head down, chin tucked into chest, 1000,
Joined: Nov 15, 2009 2000,3000,4000,5000, head back, look up, check canopy. Sometimes you don't feel the opening shock, when you do you immediately go
Messages: 4,617 to head back, look up, check canopy). The math: Using a gun with a cyclic rate of 600 rounds per minute you'd fire a 5 round burst in 1/2
second. Pause 2.5 seconds and fire another burst. A total of 3 seconds per cycle. 60 seconds in a minute /3=20 cycles x 5 rounds per
Location: God's Country
burst=100 rounds per minute. Due to the 2.5 second pauses you're actually allowing the barrel to cool about 50 seconds out of every
minute. Same with rapid rate, 1/2 second burst, 1 second pause, 1.5 seconds per cycle. 60/1.5=40, 40 x 5 rounds per burst=200 rounds
per minute.
Guns are optimally employed in pairs (because of the cross-fire), you spend a lot of training time teaching your gunners to get their guns
to "talk" to one another. Gun one speaks, slight pause, gun two speaks, slight pause, gun one speaks, repeat. This uses the same
rhythm and reinforces it in the gunners subconcious. On the defensive using the tripod and T & E mechanism you can pre-register
targets as to range and azimuth, record it and dial the dope in when engaging a target in that area, making it easier and quicker to get on
target. Which brings us to aiming, normal prceedure is to use the sights to get in the approximate area of the target and then visually
walk you tracers or bullet splashes onto the target. Example: I have a vehicle in the open at approximately 800 meters, I flip my sights
up, calibrate to 800 meters, aim at the target and fire a burst, observe the tracers/bullet splashes, flip the sights down and adjust onto the
target by guesstimation, a good gunner will be all over the target by the second or third burst. Your A-gunner (or the machine gun squad
leader) helps here by observing the strike of the rounds and calling out corrections, i.e. left 25, up 50.
While I have spent a lot of time on the different types of fire, it's just theoretical. When doing it for real you take the principles you have
learned and apply them to your real world situation. same vehicle as above, I sight, fire a five round burst, my tracer/bullet strikes are
short and to the right, my A-gunner calls out a correction of let 25, up 50. I adjust slightly, fire a 5 round burst, on target, I fire a 10-12
round burst centering my cone of fire on the center of the target, (cone of fire is more important here than beaten zone because the
target is vertical). I'll pause long enough to observe the strike of my rounds and effect on target and fire another 10-12 round burst if
necessary, and repeat or even fire a longer burst if necessary until the target is neutralized. I'm not really using either the sustained or
rapid rate of fire but using the number of rounds in my burst to optimize my effectiveness and preserve my ammo supply to the greatest
extent. There is no reason to fire 12 round bursts when trying to acquire the target, once on target 12 rounds gives me a better chance to
neutralize it in one burst. There's enemy infantry behind a berm, I want to suppress them to allow a fire team to maneuver around to their
flank to engage them. I'd use 3-5 round bursts to keep them pinned and minimize their ability to return fire while the fire team moves,
using 6-12 round bursts when I'm unlikely to inflict casualties is inefficient. Because it's crucial for me to keep them pinned I may only
pause a second and a half between bursts, using the pause to traverse randomly right and left between bursts, do not establish a pattern
that the enemy can exploit. If I were traversing uniformly in one direction or the other, the enemy could pick up on it and either move or
fire from the end of their position away from my direction of traverse. Because my cycle would be approximately 2 seconds (1/2 second
for burst, one and a half seconds for pause) my rate of fire would be around 150 rounds per minute. Normally when using sustained rate
you have to change the barrel every 10 minutes, with sustained rate every two minutes, so I probably can keep the target suppressed at
this rate for 3-4 minutes before I have to change barrels and will have burned through 450-600 rounds.
Hope this gives you a little better picture.
KodiakBeer and Poppy like this.
Nicely explained...again Vietnam footage...you can hear that rhythm perfectly...thanks USMC Price : ) Insite is a wonderful thing to
share...
I try to be the man my dog thinks i am...

CAC
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CAC, Aug 9, 2014 #49
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CAC said:
Nicely explained...again Vietnam footage...you can hear that rhythm perfectly...thanks USMC Price : ) Insite is a wonderful thing to share...
Thank you for the comment, CAC. Didn't think about film/video. Here's an older video of machine gunners training on Okinawa, using the
.50 cal Browning. The M2 Browning has a sustained/slow rate of 40 rounds per minute using 5-7 round bursts with 10-15 second pauses.
Remember these guys are learning. Gun two (right side) is having a problem keeping his bursts in the 5-7 round range and several times
USMCPrice
Idiot at Large
talks over the #1 gun because of this. The instructor has them trying to fire sustained fire, #1 gun is pretty good at keeping his bursts
regular and in the 5-7 round range and is generally keeping a rhythm of about 3 seconds between bursts, later in the video he calms
down and his pauses stretch out to about 5 seconds at one point, then he loses focus and starts responding to the number 2 gun and his
Messages: 4,617
pauses drop back to about 3 seconds. Notice also that at one point the number 2 gun runs dry on ammo, while number 1 gun continues
to fire. They draw identical round counts, so this is due to #2 gun firing longer bursts several times. The instructors are trying to get them
used to the 5-7 round bursts and working in concert with a second gun, once they achieve this they'll work on their pause length and
rhythm. Nervous, inexperienced gunners have a tendency to speed up their tempo when working with another gun. You'll be able to
discern when they get close to having it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx6M9w_TH7E
The M2 Is just a bad-assed piece of ordnance!

KodiakBeer
Member
KodiakBeer, Aug 10, 2014 #51
Messages: 6,150
Poppy said:
Ten second barrel change sounds fast in battle. Those are F-1 numbers...
A trained no.2 in a Bren Gun team could change a barrel in 3-4 seconds...it was just flip up a clip and twist/lift away by the foregrip - then
do it in reverse with the new barrel. I've also seen anecdotal accounts that bring it down to 2-3 seconds...!
phylo_roadking
Member
If it was done while the gunner swapped mags - then effectively it was no time taken.
Joined: Oct 16, 2010 "Et Dick tracy, il est mort? Et Guy LeClair?"
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phylo_roadking, Aug 10, 2014 #52
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lwd said:
I'd like to see some documentation on this. Something about it doesn't quite sound right.
So would I. My instructors told me about diminished accuracy and even exploded barrels, but nothing about barrel stoppages. As a barrel
gets hot it expands, offering LESS not more resistance to projectile passage. Eventually it gets to the point where the rifling is ineffective.
However, weakened metal can cause the barrel to disintegrate right about this point. "Cook-offs" become a problem also. In Vietnam, for
darkh
New Member
field troops, only the extended engagements when we were trying to break contact with a superior force cause the M60 to overheat
sufficiently to require barrel replacement. In base defense, the clerk serving mandatory bunker duty frequently treated an M60 like a
Joined: Aug 20, 2013
garden hose and destroyed the weapon after about the fifth "mad minute." For a couple of months of convalescence duty I was an army
Messages: 11
intel analyst; got bunker duty three nights a week and prayed we'd be assigned next to a bunker with 3MarDiv personnel. Even their
Likes Received: 2
cooks could at least shoot. And don't get me started on typewriter jockeys and hand grenades.
The horror....
darkh, Apr 5, 2015 #53
darkh said:
So would I. My instructors told me about diminished accuracy and even exploded barrels, but nothing about barrel stoppages. As a barrel gets hot it
expands, offering LESS not more resistance to projectile passage. Eventually it gets to the point where the rifling is ineffective. However, weakened
metal can cause the barrel to disintegrate right about this point. "Cook-offs" become a problem also. In Vietnam, for field troops, only the extended
engagements when we were trying to break contact with a superior force cause the M60 to overheat sufficiently to require barrel replacement. In
base defense, the clerk serving mandatory bunker duty frequently treated an M60 like a garden hose and destroyed the weapon after about the fifth
USMCPrice "mad minute." For a couple of months of convalescence duty I was an army intel analyst; got bunker duty three nights a week and prayed we'd be
Idiot at Large assigned next to a bunker with 3MarDiv personnel. Even their cooks could at least shoot. And don't get me started on typewriter jockeys and hand
grenades.
The horror....
Messages: 4,617
I salute you for being a Vietnam Vet, thank you for your service! I was an M-60 gunner, MG squad and section leader and MG range
instructor for a long time and have never seen a barrel stoppage. Never saw an exploded barrel, I have seen barrels surveyed because
they became too hot and warped. I've seen many, many, cookoffs, the scariest is where the round cooks off while being extracted and
bounces around inside the receiver. I agree an untrained, even marginally trained, gunner can wreck any gun rather quickly.
And don't get me started on typewriter jockeys and hand grenades
Almost as dangerous are those that are around them so much they grow bored with them, or forget how dangerous they can be.
USMCPrice, Apr 5, 2015 #54
I'm far from an expert but it would seem to me that for a stoppage to occur a series of extreme events would have to occur. For instance
the barrel would have to have gotten hot enough to warp such that a bullet or bullets started impacting or wearing a point preferentiallyor
expanded (or a combination of expansion and wear) to the point where the long axis of the bullet could turn so that it was out of
alignment with the barrel. I have heard of some of the experimental sabot rounds for mg's actually exiting through the side of the barrel.
Possibly some other sort of barrel failure could produce such a situation, like foregin material in the barrel damaging the barrel and going
unnoticed.
lwd lwd, Apr 6, 2015 #55

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11/29/2019 Burning Out Machine Gun Barrels | Page 3 | WWII Forums

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Burning Out Machine Gun Barrels

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TiredOldSoldier Truth is the first victim of conflict

-VOS HIC INTRATIS OMNEM SPEM RELINQUITE-

USMCPrice, Aug 8, 2014 #42

Joined: Nov 20, 2012 KodiakBeer, Aug 8, 2014 #43

Poppy I did not know the definition.

I try to be the man my dog thinks i am...

A Kodiak Bear Mauling (shameless plug): http://www.amazon.com/Kodiak-Bear-Mauling-Living-Alaskas/dp/1470082896/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

I have not heard of the phenomena with small arms,

Joined: Oct 16, 2010 Sometimes you just can't win...

Hope this gives you a little better picture.

-VOS HIC INTRATIS OMNEM SPEM RELINQUITE-

USMCPrice, Aug 9, 2014 #48

KodiakBeer and Poppy like this.

I try to be the man my dog thinks i am...

-VOS HIC INTRATIS OMNEM SPEM RELINQUITE-

USMCPrice, Aug 10, 2014 #50

The M2 Is just a bad-assed piece of ordnance!

A Kodiak Bear Mauling (shameless plug): http://www.amazon.com/Kodiak-Bear-Mauling-Living-Alaskas/dp/1470082896/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

darkh, Apr 5, 2015 #53

And don't get me started on typewriter jockeys and hand grenades

-VOS HIC INTRATIS OMNEM SPEM RELINQUITE-

USMCPrice, Apr 5, 2015 #54

lwd lwd, Apr 6, 2015 #55

Joined: Jul 24, 2007

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