Regarding Private Investigators assigned to follow Ron Miscavige Sr.

Transcript of West Allis, Wisconsin police interview with Daniel Powell 30 July 2013.

D = Daniel Powell

P1 = 1st policeman or detective

P2 = 2nd policeman or detective

Time on recording: (00:00)

P1. In talking to your father, basically, he's working this case you guys are working on, and in doing
so, ended up prowling, somebody called the police on him, he gets arrested, we've been talking - he's laid
out a lot of details to us about what he's doing, why, for who...

D. He's not laying any of the details out about anything he's doing for who or why...confidentiality
agreement - he breaks that confidentiality agreement we get sued. I'm not going to give you any details
on that either.

P2. Well, we can go get your father and he'll explain to you what he's told, told us everything...

D Then I want to talk to my dad.

P1. Well, first of all, slow yourself down. You're not calling shit here, ok. Nothing.

D. Nobody'll tell me what's going on.

P1 Well, here's the thing. You're not just going to walk in here and get information and walk away
happy. That's not how it works, ok?

Yes, we know what your dad is working on.

D. Who's he working for?

P1. Church of Scientology through another private investigation firm who is retained by an attorney
who is retained by David.

D. Ok...well, why can't I talk to him?...I've been worried about my dad all day that's why I'm so upset.

P1. We're in the midst of explaining that to you, ok? But your dad's got a bunch of crap in his car that
shouldn't have been in his car as well. Ok? And I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

D. What?

P1. Well, these are things that we're gonna talk about.

D. Ok.
P1. But these are things that, basically, we're gonna have you talk to him briefly and he can tell you
what his wishes are of you, and then we need to sit down and talk and at the end of that we'll be able to
determine if everything that he has told us is truthful. You know what I mean?

P2. I think one of the things that we have to make clear here is your dad may or may not be in
trouble, we don't know.

The police department made contact with him today and he wasn't cooperative initially and that's what got
him into a little bit of trouble.

D. What was the contact made for?

P1. That I already explained to you.

D. Speeding?...speeding?...he was prowling?

P1. Yeah.

P2. He was found on the wrong property. When he was asked for id...

P1. Ok

P2. ...he wouldn't identify himself.

P1. ...for...

D. ...arrest him for ID police?

P2. Yes

P1. For the same reason that you cited when you sat down. Ok?

But, unfortunately...you guys are, being PI's, you guys are kind of in a tricky situation. You know, if the
police think something criminal has occurred the, your, confidentiality with your clients really doesn’t do
anything for you. That part of, I guess, part of being a PI doing what you're doing legally and being secret
and not seen, you know what I mean?

P2. Here's the thing, Daniel. We're not the media. We're not tabloid. The information that you give us
isn't going to be broadcast anywhere. We have concerns about your mission up here considering the
weapons that we found in your dad's vehicle.

D. Ok. I can tell you those are not criminal. We collect.

P2. Ok. And can you see why it might look bad...

D. yes

P2. ...that...

D. I can see why it looks bad...

P2. ...this guy's being followed...why it looks bad..

P1. And that what we're looking at from the outside.

D. We like firearms and we buy rifles and stuff. We collect them. We don't...we shoot for fun at
targets. Um the firearms...

P2. Let's, real quick, just talk about the firearms that you know that are up here. What firearms did
you guys bring in?

D. I know of a 22 rifle and I believe there's a 22 assault rifle. I'm not sure what exactly he had, we
have. Multiple firearms. I'm not sure what I have...what he has.

P2. Ok. So you have firearms in your vehicle?

D. Not in my vehicle.

P2. Ok. So there’s no firearm in your vehicle right now?

D. No, I had to fly up here.

P2. Ok. 'cause he thought you might have a ninety nine.

D. I have a three up here.

P2. A 380 where?

D. In my _ holster.

P2. Right now?

D. Yes.

P2. Is it loaded?

D. Yes.

(cell phone rings)

P2. Go ahead and take that or silence it - whatever you need to do.

P2. What about the firearms that you dad was traveling with...

D. As far as I know those magazines were loaded. They were not loaded into weapons.

P2. So what firearms do you know that he had?

D. I know he had a 22 assault rifle.

P2. Ok

D. but I don't...I'm pretty sure he had that. I'm not sure - I don't know which ones he had.

P2. Ok. What kind of accessories did he have with that 22 assault rifle?

D. I don't know.

P2. You remember seeing a white tube? He said that you were familiar with the white tube that he
had with that.
D. No.

P2. You never seen...you never saw a PVC tube?

D. The...oh yeah

P2. Ok. What's that?

D. I don't know. Just a PVC tube as far as I know. I don't know what it does.

P2. Ok. He said you helped him test fire it.... (silence)...what's it designed to do?

D. Can I talk to my dad?

P2. Not right now. You won't (will?) be able to in the near future but...What's that designed to do?

(silence)

P2. Daniel, this isn't...you're a smart guy...you're a gun fun. Everyone who's a gun fun knows what
that's designed to do and that's one of the concerns we have.

D. Hmmn. What's it do?

P2. It's meant to suppress sound.

D. I know it had a big black suppressor on it but it was a flash suppressor.

P2. What about the white tube? When you fire that what does it sound like?

D. Nothing.

P2. Right. Silent.

P1. The one Jimmy made for him...in...Virginia or Tennessee?

P2. I think he said Tennessee.

P2. So, that's one of the concern we have, the silencer.

D. Ok.

P2. All right. And you heard it fired and it's quiet, correct? So that's...so we have a guy's following an
old guy who they're going to hunt with an assault rifle that has a silencer. An old guy doesn't know that
he's being followed. That's why we're concerned.

D. ok

P1. From the outside looking in since we get involved with this where we encounter your father who
isn't cooperative because of his confidentiality concerns. So we have what we believe to be... an
uncooperative person whose car we then look in and see what's...his car looks like which he said you
have you his car too so you know what the inside of the car looks like. So from the outside looking in, not
knowing you guys or not knowing anything else before we talk to anyone, what do we have?

D. It's a noise suppressor. We built it for fun to see what it would do. We saw how to do it. A guy
helped us do it. It's not for anything that y'all think we're using it for is...we built it for fun in Tennessee
when we were shooting 'cause we thought it would be cool.

P2. So how did...take me through how it was made...the internal...

D. I'm not sure how it went together. Some guy helped us do it.

P2. Who's that? Jimmy?

D. Yeah.

P2. Is it washers? What are the...baffling look like inside? Did Jimmy have one and you guys asked
can you help us make one of those or how did that come about?

D. Yeah.

P2. And when...how many times have you fired it?

D. I don't know exactly.

P2. And when it's fired does it make a...just a little air sound like...or is it...

D. No, you can still hear it.

P1. Ok

D. You can still hear it. It’s not like a silencer where there's no noise.

P2 There's still a little bit of...

(paper rustling)

D. It's not like a...

P2. It didn't quiet it that much but it quieted some?

P1. Does it still throw flames out the front of the tube?

D. No. That's what the big black flash suppressor is.

P1. Right. But to use this white one you have to unscrew the black flash suppressor...

P2 Or does it go over the white one...or the black one?

(fiddling with something)

P1. It didn't fit...take it off.

P2. Does the white PVC go over it?

D. No it doesn't go over it, it goes over the barrel.

P1. And besides making it quiet does it kill the flash as well?

D. No, not without the flash suppressor on it.

P1. Ok. So it still shoots fire off the end of the tube I guess?

D. Yeah, there's still a flash.

P2. So the white tube isn't a flash suppressor?

D. It's not a flash suppressor. It's not even a really good noise suppressor, it's just...I thought it was
going to be a cool silencer and it wasn't.

P2. Ok

D. But all we do with our rifles is shoot them for fun in Tennessee and... that's what my dad's in
trouble for, right?

P2. Right. Note, like I said before, we don't know whether or no your dad's in trouble or not. We had
concerns.

D. I'll give you a lie detector test. All we do with our weapons is shoot them for fun. We shoot for
sport.

P1 Do you have contact with your clients or is all the contact go through your dad?

D. My dad.

P2. Ok

P1. I guess...what is your...what job do you...what is your impression...cause you and your dad are
partners in a business, right? What job is it that you...your understanding of what you and your dad are
doing that you've been contracted to do?

D. We...dig up dirt on this guy to make sure he can't do anything to hurt the church. That's pretty
much all we do.

We dig up dirt to use on him to get him to not hurt the...trying to go against the church.

P2. So when he tries...if he...tries to hurt the church do you then present him with this dirt or does
the...?

D. No, the client does.

P2. Ok

D. We get the information for the client. We write reports everyday...send them to the client. The
client then documents them and then goes with it from there. That's as far as we...our business end
goes...we don't know what they do with it...

P2 ...information?

D. We don't know where it goes, who gets it. We just know we do the report, we send it off, that's the
end of our day.

P2. So what kind of dirt?

D. Just what he's been doing, umm,...

P1 Who he's talking to?

D. Who he's talking to, who he's getting email from, who he's chatting with on the phone, what he's
talking about, stuff like that.

P2. But specifically if he's...you're not just looking for dirt...

D. We don't really get dirt. We get forewarning for the church.

P2. ok\

D. Forewarning. We, if we find out something he shouldn't be, we let them know.

P1. What's an example of something he shouldn't be doing, I guess?

D. Trying to run David's name down. That's all David's worried about. He doesn't want him to run his
name down.

P1. Talking badly about him?

D. Talking badly about him...writing books about him that are bad. Putting his name out in the media
with people that he doesn't want his name out with, stuff like that. Talking to people that are trying to run
the church down.

P1. So, like media?

D. No, like other members that have left and want to bring the church down.

P1. Ok. I don't....

P2. (interrupts) I'm sorry...so what is...forewarning, umm...

D. If he's talking to somebody that the client doesn't want him talking to as in somebody that's
defected from the church and is a threat to the church. If our target talks to somebody like that we then tell
the client. The client then tells the investigators around where the person he's talking to is and they deal
with the...investigators watch out for it there and then somewhere in there the client himself or an
undercover agent that's been planted will try to stop what's going on between the two.

P2. Ok. So how is it play out where there is an intervention...so, if you see that, this person, the target
is doing something that the church has deemed adversarial or on the black list, how is he stopped?

D. We have inside people that are like friends with him and his little group and then we have inside
people with the other little group. They're acting like they hate the church too and then we...they get the
information and then they defuse it...without...they just defuse it by like a...telling our target, "Well, you
really don't want to get into that because you want to retire", stuff like that. They just try...he's trying...our
whole purpose is to keep our target from running the church down and keep him from telling. He's so
close to our target that he knows more about our target than anybody else and he, our target doesn't want
that information getting out. So he wants to keep him happy and keep him away by himself, retired. Keep
him, like he gave him a bunch of money to come here and live so he could go off retire and just live his
life out. He wants him to live his life out and just finish it off without...finish his life without running the
church down anymore. So he's not...we're not...I know what you're getting at. You're getting at that the
church wants him hit and that's not it at all.
P2 Obviously that's one of the things...

D. That's what you're getting at. That's what you are thinking. I can tell by the questioning. I can
deduce...

P1. A trunk full of firearms does, I guess, lead us in that direction, yes?

D. Yes. That is our collection though. We travel so much that, in Florida, you can't get firearms
anymore. It's so hard to find firearms that, when we travel, we go to pawn shops and places like that and
we buy the...22 assault rifles in Florida, those are...you won't find them. But in like Virginia you can buy
them at a pawn shop. You can buy them at like Bass Pro, stuff like that so we buy them while we're out of
state and we just wait til we go back to Tennessee, take them to Tennessee, put them in our safe. And I
guess my dad thought there was places to shoot out here cause where we're staying in Janesville, in
Whitewater, there's a guy out there that he's friends with has a shooting range out behind a cornfield so
he brought his gun up here to shoot out there I guess.

P1 Is that the guy that owns some business in Whitewater?

D. Yes.

P2. Let's talk about how you're able to listen to target's phone calls. explain that to us.

D. If he's in a parking lot or something and he's on the phone, he always rolls his windows down
cause he doesn't like to run his car while he's sitting in a parking lot. So he'll roll his windows down and
we'll pull up next to him and we'll crack our windows so we can hear what he's saying. That's the only
opportunities we get to hear what he's saying on the phone.

P2. You're not able to listen in other ways?

D. No. It's not legal to do phone taps for us.

P1. How about emails, you'd mentioned emails?

D. We go to the library and if he's on the computer at the library we'll look around over his shoulder
or something and see it that's...

P1. It's that easy?

D. It's that easy with him. We look over his shoulder and see who the email's going to and see the
subject of it is and that's it.

P1. As I had asked your dad, if the client calls you, say right now, says, "Where is 'John'?" you guys
are supposed to be able to tell him "He's with the..."...

D. Not after 8 o'clock...

P1 Really? You guys are off at 8?

D. We get off at 8 unless the target is still active. If the target is still active at 8, we follow the target
til they get home.

So, we start at 7 in the morning, if the target's not at home at 7 in the morning, the target's lost for the day
until the target gets home.
P1. Ok. So when he's with his wife... half his age...what's her...kind of jammed up here...in
Whitewater...When he leaves that house together or by himself you guys obviously follow him wherever
he goes and you never lose sight of him or is there another way that you know where he is?

D. Well there's 2 of us. 2 or 3 of us usually. Right now there's two of us. He drives like an old man.
He's almost 80 years old. He doesn't do over 50 miles an hour. So keeping an eye on this guy is like it's
nothing. We stay right on him.

P2. GPS tracking also helps.

D. Yes. But we don't use GPS usually because it's so easy to track him. GPS tracking is legal as
long as long as you put it on in a public place, as far as I know.

(20:10 minutes)

P1. A lot of what we're doing is, as you...we're kind of giving you the mental picture that we got.

D. I'm giving you all honest answers because I know we're not doing nothing wrong and...

P1. And I appreciate that.

D. ...and I'm not going to sit here and try to lie to you because...

P1 Yeah, it's going to look like you're...

D ...it's going to look like we're doing something wrong. Yes, I was scared because the suppressor
and everything looks bad.

P2 Well, you know what the suppressor is - it's not a suppressor, it's a silencer.

D I thought it was a suppressor. It's just a noise suppressor, it's what it's called usually, right? It
quiets it down a little bit.

P2. It's synonymous.

P1 And one's a flame...one would be a flame suppressor.

D. A flash suppressor...(unintelligible)...the big bang...

P2 the suppressor's typically used to describe suppressing the flash...noise suppressor...so we're
splitting hairs but...

P1 ...getting an understanding of what exactly we're talking about...sometimes Wisconsin language

may differ from Arizona language and 'water fountain', 'soda fountain' that kind of crap. But what we see
initially is a guy with a ton of weapons and surveillance equipment in a car who's not cooperative. We are
left to deduce and prepare for worst case scenario which is...

D I'm sure the reason he wasn't cooperative in the first place is that he didn't want to blow his cover.

P1 I know that now, yeah. But I'm just talking the original picture...

D I've been put in handcuffs because I was sitting in front of a bank and when they asked me what I
was doing I said, "Waiting on somebody" and they said, "Get out of the car, we're going to arrest you".
They said that I'd been sitting there for too long and I was suspicious and then finally...The confidentiality
agreement thing that I said when I got in here, I was completely under that. I thought that I wasn't
supposed to tell anybody that I was a private investigator. I thought I wasn't supposed to tell anybody that
I was on the job, nothing. So I didn't tell them. And when I got there and told them it was like, "Oh".

P1 Well, he's concerned about losing the job.

D If we lose this job, we lose everything we have.

P1 So, that's obviously the concern he had at the time.

D If we lose this job we lose our cars. We collect things. I have a monster truck. I have 5 third
generation Camaros, I have a Corvette, I have 2 motorcycles. We have 2 houses. We collect things. We
like to have a bunch of stuff and with our bills the way they are, if we lose this job, we lose everything.
That's why we have guns 'cause we like to collect things. Once we get into something, it's like a hobby.
We start...

P1 Well, what you do with your money...that's up to you, right?

Our concern is that we have a hit man stalking someone.

D I understand that concern.

P1 And that's kind of how our two heads came together. So, now I guess the question is...

P2 The gasoline. There's a gasoline container?

D Oh yes. That is for Velcro. Because we put Velcro all over our rental vehicles, when we pull the
Velcro off, it leaves sticky shit all over the dash. Rental companies hate that. We take a little rag, we put a
little gasoline on it, we wipe it all off.

P1 What do the rental companies do about it if...

D They just get pissed off 'cause we have to leave all sticky shit on the dashboard...We have so
many phones and computers we Velcro them to the dash and the center console and...I only know about
it because my dad said that - we were returning my rental last week and he said, "Oh wait, you're still
filling up?" and he put it in a little apple juice bottle. Or orange juice bottle. And it's for wiping the gunk off
the dash with the Velcro.

P1 Why are there a bunch of license plates in the car? They're from different states.

D I guess those are for rentals.

P1 Right. You collect those too?

D No.

P1 Why are they in there?

D I don't know.

P1 Presumably it's the front plate from rental cars that you guys use. The front plate always comes
off when it gets returned?

I'm just curious. I completely forgot to ask you to add this question. I might have to. But, why he's keeping
them.

D I have no idea. It's either to collect them or if we get...target burns us...we throw another tag on til
we get to a new spot, something like that. I don't know.

P1 That would make more sense...in surveillance...in the realm of surveillance, yes.

He said that you and he both have Taurus', 9mm Taurus'?

D Tiffany has the Taurus right now.

P1 Has a Taurus?

D Has one of the Taurus'.

P1 Do you know where...? How many Taurus’s do you have in your collection?

D He has, as far as I know, 2 9mm Taurus' right now.

P1 He has or you have one?

D He has one and Tiffany has one.

P1 Do you have one?

D I have a... 3 Kel-Tec.

P1 Ok. He said the 2 Taurus’s, one is yours, one is his.

D Yes. But Tiffany has one because she didn't have anything.

P1 So a Taurus is yours or it isn't?

D It is.

P1 Ok. Where is your Taurus?

D Tiffany has it,

P2 What's in the console of your car right now?

D It's a 3 inch Kel-Tec, a little pocket gun. I do have a concealed weapon permit.

P1 From...?

D Florida.

(cell phone rings)

P1 So you gave your Taurus to Tiffany or he gave your Taurus to Tiffany?

D He did.

P1 Alright.
D We keep all of our stuff together.

P1 Well there's one in the car, that’s for...we're trying to figure out which one it is. His or yours?

D They're both in his name.

P1 ok

D But we keep all of our stuff together like...all the cars are in his name but I call them mine...if it is
something...everything's 'ours'.

P1 I understand, now, you have 3 brothers and sisters that live with their mothers, if I am
understanding correctly? Your dad says he financially supports those kids?

D yes.

P1 But you obviously are an adult...live with your father...I mean you guys work together, you're on
the road together. Own your own?

D We do almost everything together almost all the time.

P1 ok

D My dad is like my best friend. I know everything about my dad and my dad knows everything
about me.

P1 That's what he said.

D because from the time I was born my mom wasn't there really for me. So me and my dad have
been as tight as you can get forever. I know everything he knows. He knows everything I know.

P1 Ok. Lost my line of questioning.

D That's why I’ve been so...that's why I was so worked up when I got here. I've been driving around
since I think 11:45 this morning.

P1 Trying to figure where he was?

D Searching for him worried that he got mugged, shot, killed, something...and he has this thing
where he sometimes...it's happened to him twice in the past 2 years...twice in the past 4-5 years where
he just gets deathly ill within an hour.

P1 What's that_about?

D I have no idea. He was sitting in....we found him in his truck on day and he was balled up in a
ball, couldn't move, paralyzed, just completely...

P1 What'd the doctors say it was?

D They say he was just sick. They didn't know what it was and then 2 days later he was perfectly
fine.

P1 Why (unintelligible)...
D That's why I was so worried because I thought that maybe he was somewhere here in town and
that'd happened to him and he was going to die in his truck and nobody was going to know where he was.

P1 And that's a big place to look.

D I've been searching Milwaukee all day long.

P1 Whose truck...do you use that truck for surveillance too?

D That's his surveillance truck.

P1 ok

D I have my own surveillance truck. I've driven his truck before. Yes.

P1 Why are the guns in there?

D Because we don't leave them at the hotel. That's the stupidest thing you can do. I've had my
toothbrush stolen from the hotel. If you leave something of value in a hotel it will be gone when you get
back. Because even if you put the 'Do not disturb' sign on the door they will go in there and search the
room.

P1 And you guys noticed there is (unintelligible)... (Tenedstedka?), not flea bag motels but lower
end...to keep your expenses down?

D Yes. We stay at lower end motels to keep our expenses down. I've had stuff stolen, clothes, I've
had my toothbrush stolen, my toothpaste stolen. I've had dog toys stolen so why would I want to leave a
gun in the hotel room where it can get stolen and somebody can get killed with it and I get blamed for it.

P1 Those are good arguments...So the guns...how did they up here this time, he said that Tiffany
brought some?

D Tiffany brought a couple. She has our POV...and I don't know which ones she brought him...but
he was going to shoot them at the restaurant...it's a restaurant/store/farm field/farm - it's an awesome
place.

(30:37)

P1. How long have you guys been working this case... I guess... if you will?

D. I know we've been working for the church for almost eight or nine years now, 7, 8, 9 years,
something like that. I've been working for five. I used to write reports. I just got my intern license this year
so this is my first year working it and ever since I started I've been on this case. I'm pretty sure we started
on this case with these people two years ago... 2 1/2 years.

P2. I just want to get some clarity on the exact mission... so how is it explained to you what you're
supposed to do - you initially said we just keep an eye on this guy to dig up dirt just to make sure he
doesn't...

D1. The whole thing is he is his dad. The owner of Scientology is David Miscavige. His dad is Ron
Miscavige. His dad used to be the music director of the church. His music got old, outdated - David said,
"Well, go live your life. Get out of the church. Don't worry about it." Ron took that as, "You're fired. Get the
hell out of here. We don't want anything to do with you anymore. Leave."
Well, from that day on, Ron has been writing books about how terrible David is. "My son David" is one of
his books. He was writing another one. David paid him off to not finish that book. That's how he got the
money to get here.

David pretty much uses money and the people around him to stop him from doing anything he's doing
against the church. But if David doesn't know that he's going to do something against the church, he can't
do anything.

David bought him a trumpet, like a little horn, it was $5000 to pay him off for something - to get him to not
talk bad about him.

P1. How much do you know about the church of Scientology?

D. I know what I need to know about it. I'm not into it.

P1. So you're not a member? You probably know more about it than I do - the basic understanding of
what they do, what they're about and why David would be so afraid...

D. David probably has reason to be afraid, he's a terrible person.

I think, myself, I don't agree with anything the church does because it's not... I'm not a part of it. I don't
know much about it. I don't want to know much about it. Because I work for it, I don't want to know I'm
doing something wrong.

P1. You've heard about, I'm sure you've heard...

D. Probably more details than you've heard... about the girl from "the King of Queens" leaving?

P2. Tell us about that.

D. She stood up and she wasn't doing anything wrong. She stood up one night at dinner and she
said, "Where's your wife at?" And one of his right-hand men stood up and said, "You have no fucking right
to ask where my wife is - or where his wife is. And ever since then they told her friends and her family that
they could either deal with the church or they could deal with her. And everybody chose the church so she
left.

P2. When did his... what year did his wife go missing?

D. 2004? I don't know. I know what the news knows about that.

P2. You don't know anything more than what the media already knows?

P1. I'm not playing dumb to David, I actually am dumb to David. You said he's a terrible person. Are
we talking.... I mean is he some kind of...

D. I don't know if he's a murderer. I don't know who he is. I don't know anything about him really. I
just know that nobody likes him. That's why he's doing so much to keep his name out of the dirt.

When he took office, when he took command of the church he let... he fired all the people - he started
doing things that nobody liked. Everybody started leaving. He started making enemies. And that's what
this is all about. He's got to try to keep his enemies from ganging up together. He wants to know when
they do get together and that's what we do. We are on his dad. There is other investigators on it. There's
different teams on different groups of people.
We are one of the top teams because we are - the highest priority with his dad. His dad is going to...
knows the most about him... try to get to everybody else so when he starts talking to a new person we let
David know. David then lets the other investigators know. The investigators then let their undercover
people know and they try to defuse it like I said.

So it's a big chain of command.

P1. Sounds very complex.

D. It goes in a big circle and...

P1. Now I don't know anything about David's wife being missing...

D. I guess she's been missing for about six years or seven years or something like that. Nobody's
seen her. Nobody's seen her in public. Nobody's seen her anywhere.

P1. You don't know if these surveillance teams are on her?

D. Well, were getting paid not to worry about him. We don't go after him. He pays us to go after
people he wants us to.

P1. No, I got that... Right... No, your assignment is his dad.

P2. Where do you think the funding comes from?

D. Probably Tom Cruise...(laugh-unintelligible)... I'm being serious. That's probably where it comes
from. All these famous people that they've got in the church are... Tom Cruise is so high in the church...
He's such a high... They call it a thetan level or something like that. It means you're higher up in the
church. He so high because he so rich. He funds the church with anything they need. So he's pretty much
funding all of this.

We make jokes all the time. When Tom Cruise's last movie came out - it was a terrible movie...

P1. But you're getting a raise...

D We were going around telling everybody how awesome the movie was. Go see the movie so Tom
Cruise can get paid and we can get paid..

P2. Makes sense.

P1. What's your knowledge of David, or, not your knowledge, what you do know about David? My
question is this, either wittingly or unwittingly, what if, what would you think would happen if his dad did
something that just blew David out of the water?

D. I can tell you right now. We got a call from David Miscavige last week... David... Because my dad
made a comment because I told my dad, "Senior looks like he's having heart problems." Because he was
hunched over and he was grabbing his chest and he was crouching back...

P1. Yeah, he mentioned that.

D. And I made a comment right after, "He looks like he's having heart problems." My dad then
relayed that message to his boss, which is... I don't know, Greg or somebody and then Greg relayed that
message to Ron. Ron then called my dad and said, "If he dies, he dies. Don't intervene."
P1. And Ron is the attorney?

D. ...or not, not Ron. Not Ron, David. David called my dad and said, "If he dies, he dies. Don't
intervene."

My dad told me the other day, "I don't care what David says. If you see that old man hit the ground and
start grabbing his chest, you call 911". He said, "If he hits the ground and start grabbing his chest, call 911
but don't go help because if they get pictures of us helping, we can get sued because our client told us
not to do anything."

P2. So, it was a mandate from David not to...

D. ...not to intervene.

P2. Not to call 911, not to...

D. He just said, "Don't...don't go intervene with it. Let it happen. If it's time, it's his time."

But my dad... I saw that as a complete... That's why I say he's a terrible person... Because I don't think....
If somebody called me and told me my dad's having chest problems, I would be on the next plane out just
to where he's at to see him, but, David comes over the phone and says, "Oh well, don't intervene".

My dad got off the phone, he goes, "I just got a call from David Miscavige and he said, "don't intervene if
he starts having a heart attack" and then his next statement was, "I want you to call 911. Don't go over
there because I don't want people getting pictures of you trying to help him."

P1 Wow!

P2. How many times have either you or your dad received a call from David?

D. That was it. That was the only call. Because my dad thought it was weird because he's never
talked to David, nobody... None of the investigators have ever talked to David... And David called my dad
from his boss' phone...

That's why I know for a fact that my dad's not doing what you all think he's doing... Because his character
came out when David told him that. He said, "I don't care what David said, call 911".

P1. Do you think though, that if David decided it was time that he wanted his father to die, do you put
it past him to send someone to facilitate that?

D. He so old, his dad is so old that I don't think David would do that because his dad doesn't have,
probably, more than a year to two years to live.

P1. Look at the amount of money he's spending to keep an eye on him. Do you think that makes a
difference... talking, just for you guys, you and your dad, what, a quarter of a million a year?

D. I mean, you would have to call somebody else. I can tell you that right now but... I don't know
David, but from the money he's paying to have his dad watched, I don't think he wants him to be dead,
but if was to die, I think that would be... That wouldn't hurt David's feelings... If you see what I mean?

P1. Yeah. No, I do.

D1. I'm not saying David wants him to live... I'm saying if he was to die, David probably wouldn't bat
an eye.

(41:22)

(BREAK)

(46:50)

P2. Can you give me... I'm just kind of confused again on... How this goes, you guys to... Who does it
go to then?

D. We're contracted...

P2. Like.... How about... go downwards? David?

D. David.

P2. Yup.

D. Hmm... I don't know his name...

P2. Attorney?

D. There's an attorney or something...

P2. You don't know his name?

D. and then there's a... my dad's boss which is Neil...

P2. What about a Terry Roffler?

D. Yes.

P2. Who's that?

D. That is another private investigating...

P2. Agency?

D. He's a private investigator that contracts us for the church. That is Terry Roffler.

P2. So Terry Roffler works for the church?

D. He's another private investigator that the church hired. Terry then hires all the different
investigators.

P2. So you guys got hired by Terry?

D. Yes.

P2. Ok.

D. It goes, David, and then it goes David's Office which is a... I don't know their names but, there's
two people between David and then there's Terry...
P2. So David...

D. ... office, his accountant... or his, his...no, no...his attorney...

P2. ... And then...

D. and then Terry and then all the other investigators which is my dad and then me...

P2. I was just kind of a little... I was trying to keep that track, you know, I was letting them... doing the
question.

D We ne..., we've only talked to David one time...

P2. So David...attorneys... Or his attorney I should say... But you don't know his name?

D. It's their... His attorney and then his... His...ummmm... what is it... what is that.... what is it called...
the person that sits at the front desk and answers the phones?

P2. I don't know... Receptionist?

D. Secretaries.... his secretary.

P2. So it goes... So is 'attorney' and 'secretary' on the same level though?

D. Yes.

P2. So his attorney/secretary and then Terry?

D. And then Terry.

P2. So basically David, though, contacts his attorney/secretary or secretary...

D. ...secretary and then they then...

P2. ...contact Terry...

D. ...find a private investigating agency...

P2. ...Terry and then Terry contracts out to... Terry must be pretty big... A big name... Investigator...

D. He's huge. He gets paid for doing nothing, pretty much.

P2. I suppose that's what we all want to get to almost.

D. He gets paid, probably, twice what we get paid a year for doing nothing.

P2. So, you guys get paid pretty well...

(49:20)

(small talk)

(50:07)

P2 It sounds like you've been doing this for about 2 years now?
D I've been in the company for...six years now.

P2 But doing this case...

D I, myself, have been doing this for about a year...about 8 to 12 months

P2 With your dad?

D Yes

P2 On this case?

D On the road, on the case.

P2 Sound like you guys traveled to several different states according to what your dad was saying to
me.

I thought he was just talking two or three but it sounds like California, Virginia, here...

D California, Virginia, West Virginia, Indiana, here, Illinois, ...

P2 It sounds like it went from like recently California to Virginia to here now?

D Yeah. We don't want to lose this job. I mean...

P2 Well yeah and that's not our thing it's...

D If this gets out that we told y'all anything like this...

P2 I know. We get it but you've got to understand too that we've have our...

D If we were look at you like I did earlier "Confidentiality, we can't tell you anything" we'd go to jail

P2 Well, yeah, that's kind of the whole reason why...you guys are kind of in this. I was the one who
stopped your dad along with Detective Pye who's sitting here. And it was just a simple call. Somebody
just called and said, "Hey, this guy, you know, is suspicious" and...so I go up to the door and "Hey, what's
going on man. Who are you? Can I see your ID?" And it didn't go well from there. Then we have other
factors that we take into that why we wanted identification, you know.

D Y'all taze him?

P2 No

D I was just wondering what you meant by "It didn't go well from there".

P2 Oh no. I mean, he got arrested. I mean that's not...

D I was just wondering if you meant like "No, you can't see my ID. You have no right or started
fighting with you...

P2 There was a little tenseness on his part I'll say where I thought he was going to but he didn't,
which I'm glad, I mean...it's...I don't want to...I don't like fighting people. And we...but that's the whole
thing. It's like, I guess, cooperation goes a long way with us. I know you guys say _ 'confidentiality' but it's
like...you know what I mean? All we're looking for is some cooperation and just hand over the ID and "Ok,
so, what are you here for huh?"

D Well, often times when you hand over the ID on the scene right there, it's the case where the
person that calls is the person you don't want to know who you are. And you never know if you're going to
get a police officer that is going to cooperate with the private investigator or the police officer is going to
walk over there and say “He’s a private investigator, his name is this, he works for this company. You
know what I mean?

P2 That's true, yeah, no...I guess no...I see your point on it...specially, I understand you guys are
really needing confidentiality but I...

D This is such a high priority case...

P2 But at the same time, it's like...this could all have been avoided. I really mean he could have been
on his way within 2 minutes. I would have run his name through Florida. And it would have seen
where...they would came back 'no warrants' and that would have been like, "Well sir, have a nice day"

D But, do you see what I'm talking about when I explain it like that?

P2 I do, 'cause yes, you could be, you never know there are...

D You never know what cop you're going to get...the cop that goes over there and tells them what
you're doing and who you are.

P2 I agree.

(53:27)