LAURA STASSI

I'm Laura Stassi, and this is Dating While Gray, the grownups guide to love, sex and
relationships. On this episode, stories of people embracing their true selves.

I'm one of six kids, and when I was growing up, I had the reputation of being the problem
child. You know, everybody's going along to get along except for Laura. That stuck in my
head decades later. So when my marriage got rocky, I was embarrassed and ashamed to
tell my family, especially when my husband moved out because he said he needed time
away from me.

A few months after he left, I hosted my family Christmas party. There were about 25 of us,
my kids, parents, siblings and their spouses, nieces and nephews, and all during this big,
noisy, happy celebration, I tried really hard to keep it together and put a positive spin on
my husband's absence. But toward the end of the evening, maybe after I'd had a little too
much wine, I wandered over to my 90-year-old dad and sat down next to him. He asked
me how I was doing and I burst into tears. I assured my dad that I was bending over
backward. I was trying to do and be everything my husband wanted so he could be happy
and come back. And my dad got kind of mad. He said, “that's what he wants, Laura. What
do you want?” Wow. I was not expecting that. My dad knew I'm not the type of person to
bury my concerns and emotions to try to make someone else happy. I thought he would
urge me to keep compromising and sacrificing because marriage is important. And my dad
had very traditional views. I assumed he'd tell me that marriage is supposed to last forever
unless something really terrible is going on. And here my dad was basically saying that I
should be thinking about myself. And it was okay to be me. And if being me meant that my
husband and I were actually a mismatch, then maybe we shouldn't be together.

My husband did move back home nine months later. But you know the ending to this story.
A couple of years later, we split permanently. It took me a while, but I'm good with it now.
And maybe more important, I'm good with me.

The Reverend Joani Peacock calls herself an extreme extrovert. When she was only 17,
she married an extreme introvert. As they grew older, Joani says that other than their kids,
they found they really didn't have anything in common. They were married for 28 years
and it was after they separated that Joani made a personal discovery. She celebrates her
newfound sense of self, but that doesn't mean it's been easier to date.
THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK
So the other challenging thing to dating Joani Peacock is not only is she an episcopal
priest, which is a turnoff to a lot of people. I'm also bipolar. There is this, you know,
psychologically correct way to talk about things. You know, so people say, “I have bipolar
disorder,” because it doesn't completely define you. But I prefer for myself to say, “I am
bipolar,” because that's how I, that's how my brain works and I am optimally bipolar. I think
my brain is a gift, it just needs a little management. But I didn't know that, so I wasn't
diagnosed til I was 48 years old.

LAURA STASSI
OK, so that's what I was going to ask.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yes.

LAURA STASSI
And at this point. Were you, you were already a priest.
THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK
Yes, uh-huh.

LAURA STASSI
The math. Were you divorced at this time or were you?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

I was separated

LAURA STASSI
Separated?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

I was separated. And I was in a parish that I was chief cook and bottle washer 24/7. I
barely went home, was staying in my own choir. It was craziness. And I was dealing with
the relationship that was falling apart.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

At the same time. So basically crashed and burned and ended up in a hospital.
LAURA STASSI
Oh, my goodness.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yeah. But as difficult as that was, because of all that, the fabulous person you see sitting
here is a product of that process. So.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yeah. So having gotten married so young, I never lived on my own until I got divorced.
And I love it. OK. I love having my own space, my own schedule, my own time. Being
master of my own domain.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

So everything you see here is what I chose. The colors, everything that's on the wall. You
know, all the books, everything is me. This is my sacred space. And I am interested in
maybe finding somebody who might like to try to keep up with me and enjoy my, our joint
lives. And then he goes home. Right.

LAURA STASSI
So you don't, so you don't wanna be married, but that doesn't mean you don't want to be in
a relationship. Is that?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Right. Exactly. I cherish my independence.

LAURA STASSI
I've read online and it sounds like you were on dating sites at one point.
THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK
Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
What? So.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
Did that take a lot of thought to actually do it or was it, did it just seem like the natural next
step?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Well, it seemed like that that's the way people meet people in the 21st century. Right? And
that's what my children have done or whatever. I actually had, I never had a single date
from doing online dating.

LAURA STASSI
Really?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Not a single one.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, interesting.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
I think it's really difficult to, to adequately convey who you are by write up and some
pictures.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
And so if I can't do it, maybe somebody else isn't doing a good job.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

No. And that's, and because it just like all social media, it lacks reality. It's not in my
business we would call it incarnational, you know, in the flesh, you know, connection to
real people in real time. So basically after giving up on that, I said, well I want something to
help me connect with real people. So the, basically the next thing I did was try like a
matchmaker, D.C. singles thing.

LAURA STASSI
Oh

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

I made this crazy investment. It was a six-man plan. And the only good, well, so the good
thing is that I'm talking, so I know they're real. Okay?

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.
THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK
I know it's a real person. Well, the first guy I meet him in D.C. at a Starbucks and I'm like,
you know, I'm a mess. You know, my, my 30 something year old daughter is like coaching
me you know what to wear. You know, I'm like a 16-year-old. You know, “what do I wear?
What do I do?”

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

So anyway, this guy's name was Glen. And then in walks Glen in his jeans. I don't know
how when he last washed them, he had like a fisherman's hat on with all the hooks and
things on it, the way that he showed up the presented himself.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Like I don't have to try. You have to try.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

But the guy doesn't have to try, you know? But personality, it was just sitting down, I said,
“all right. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He could be fascinating.” He’s a retired
environmentalist. And, you know, he was sort of a bureaucratic environmentalist and he
barely got out of his neighborhood. He was one of things he love. He's retired. He loved
that he could do everything in a five-mile radius. And I'm just like, “oh, my God, I'm not.”

LAURA STASSI
Right.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

“Looking for someone to sit on the couch with.”

LAURA STASSI
Do you think that, you know, kind of right off the bat if you want to give somebody a
second chance? Or do you, was it him in particular? Do you know what I mean?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

No. Well and I think maybe this is a product of being so long on my own, you know? That I
just try to imagine going out the second time or the third time in my head.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

And how is this gonna be better? You know, how's it going to get better? And I, and the
sixth man on the plan that they gave me. I went out with all five of the six. And for different
reasons, I did not want to continue.

LAURA STASSI
I would think it might be difficult in that you are, so your religion, of course, is very
important to you.
THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK
Right.

LAURA STASSI
It's personal and it's also professional.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Right.

LAURA STASSI
Do you think that has.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Sure, affected it? Oh, yeah, sure.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Sure. It's a buzz kill, you know? It's a buzz kill. “You're a priest. Oh, my God. First of all,
what is that?” That's something exotic, you know?

LAURA STASSI
Right.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

And two, the assumptions people make, you know, because you're a priest. At first, like on
the profiles it says, “what is your profession?” You know?

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

I'm a writer. I am a writer. You know? I am an educator. Yeah, I am. This is who I am and
this is what I do. And I love what I do. But I also, I'm entitled, I'm in an Episcopal priest,
OK? I am not a Catholic priest. So I, and I'm single. We allow divorce right? I'm entitled to
a personal life. I didn't take a vow of celibacy.

LAURA STASSI
Do you think it's more of a buzz kill than being bipolar?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Well, the combination is just something awesome. So, but there are two very important
parts of me. And because I am, quote unquote, “out of my closet,” I've been doing the very
best work of my life by being able to connect with people who have struggled with
something similar. I shouldn't have to apologize for who I am.

LAURA STASSI
I have to say, I admire Joani not only for accepting herself, but wholeheartedly embracing
who she is. And she won't settle for anyone with whom she can't be 100 percent
authentically Joani. I checked in with Joani recently and found out that since we first spoke
several months ago, she tried online dating again and there's been a promising
development. Here's what she said.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

We've gone out three times.

LAURA STASSI
Wow.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

All each to a different art gallery. The Sackler, the Phillips, and I can't remember the other
one. National Portrait Gallery. Yeah, and.

LAURA STASSI
And these were all pre-quarantine days, correct?

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. This is all pre-quarantine, this is late January, February and through
February. And just delightful. I mean just, and we had every intention of having a fourth.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Because the third date went so well, you know? A strengthening connection, and we both
have an interest in like astrophysics. So he brought me this, a DVD of a documentary
about the Voyager spacecraft, which was like, “oh my God, you know me.” You know how
to give me something like this is. Yeah. So we have continued to be in touch.

LAURA STASSI
Have you actually seen each other in person but six feet apart? Or are you doing other.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

No, no, no, no. So mostly we stayed in touch through texting or just talking on the
telephone. This is a little bit romantic. He’s a excellent photographer, like nature
photographer. Just amazing. And he, he takes pictures of beautiful flowers and things in
the spring and he sends them to me as if he's sending me flowers.

LAURA STASSI
Oh.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

Yeah, or like cause we're both into the astronomical thing, like the pink moon that was out
the other night a week or so ago. And so we'll both go out from where we are and look up
at the moon.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah. So you feel like you can be yourself. Cause I know that you feel as though your
brain is a gift and it's giving you insight and done all these things. So, you never felt like
you had to hide that from him. And you don't feel like.

THE REV. JOANI PEACOCK

No, no. And I wouldn't. I don't want to be with anybody who I would hide that from. That
person's not worth being with.

LAURA STASSI
Next, we meet someone who lived almost 60 years with a life altering secret. That's after
the break.
Dating While Gray would not be possible without support from you, our listeners. That
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Giselle is a journalist and military affairs and defense analyst and a research fellow at a
conservative think tank. But before the age of 60, Giselle was living as a man named Tom
with a wife and two kids. Only after divorce did Tom find the courage to live openly and
honestly as Giselle. That was five years ago. Recently, I talked with Giselle about her
journey, and we'll also hear from Giselle's second wife, Beth.

GISELLE
Like so many trans people, I thought that having found somebody I really was passionate
about, that I would be cured of my desire. It took quite a while for that to rear its head
again. But this was, you know, a long time ago. This was the early 1980’s. I did not tell her
about it. And it was sort of in my interest, too, you know, I was definitely the pursuer. So I
wanted to put my best foot forward, as you might say. I did sort of feel like you know, sort
of a “thank you, that’s over with.”

LAURA STASSI
You were smitten with this woman.

GISELLE
Correct.

LAURA STASSI
As a man.

GISELLE
Yes.

LAURA STASSI
And you thought and part of you felt a little relief because you thought, “OK, I.”

GISELLE
Now my trans desires will dissipate.

LAURA STASSI
And they were, were they just desires when you were younger? Or did you ever act on
them?

GISELLE
Well, I certainly acted on them in the sense of dressing and appearance.

LAURA STASSI
And she had no idea?

GISELLE
No idea for some time. But, so in many ways, it was the inability to be honest about it that
was really the, that lead over time to the breakup of the marriage.

LAURA STASSI
You didn't think much about whether the marriage was going to last or not. You just
thought, “OK, the.”
GISELLE
I love this woman. What do I have to do in order to make her my bride?
LAURA STASSI
You know, I've heard a lot of people in older, married, older people and longtime
marriages say, you know, “the love is gone. The sex is nonexistent. Life is boringly
predictable. But we're just gonna soldier on because it would hurt too many people to get
divorced or would cost too much money to get divorced.” Did you ever have those
feelings?

GISELLE
In the end or near the end, yes. Obviously, being parents takes up a lot of time and effort
and gives you something in common that you share. Both of us wanted to be good parents
to our boys. So it really wasn't until after they'd grown and graduated school and begun
their independent lives that you know, we sort of began staring at the reality of what our
relationship had, had become. So it took a long time even to get to that point.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

GISELLE There were other things to do besides be in love.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah. I, I'm struck with a sense of bravery for what you did. Would you consider what you
did brave or would you consider it?

GISELLE
Well, no. She ended the marriage. I mean, again, I was basically became unable to
repress my desire to be a woman, live as a woman. I think at the end of the day, it was the
right thing to do. And I've just been unbearably lucky ever since.

LAURA STASSI
And so if she had said, “that's okay with me,” you would have soldiered on in that
marriage, even though it wasn't necessarily an emotionally fulfilling marriage?

GISELLE
To be accepted for becoming the person that I would like to be makes all the difference in
the world. And to have essentially lied about this for so long introduced a sort of poison
into the pool. It was a change of the basic compact I think from her point of view. I was not
the person that she married or that I had pretended to be for her. So there was a falsity to
it that I, you know, sort of understand her, her predicament to a certain degree.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah. Mm hmm.

GISELLE
So my, my trans life up to that point had been entirely by myself and closeted almost
exclusively. So, you know, since I didn't have to lie to my wife about what I was doing
anymore, that I would like go out to some of the local meetup groups and so on, so forth,
and see what that was all about and what sort of.

LAURA STASSI
Meetups specifically for?

GISELLE
For trans people. Yeah. And the other treat that I gave to myself was to go get some
makeup advice. And since I was scanning the Craigslist ads, I saw a picture of very saucy
looking woman who was offering makeup services for trans people. And that turned out to
be the Bethy.

LAURA STASSI
So, Beth?

BETH
I've been married to Giselle for just over two years and loved every minute. And life just
gets better every week. I work with the transgender community, with transgender women
as a makeup artist and photographer and doing male, male-to-female transformations and
general advice about whether it's transitioning, going out socially and just exploring that
part of their femininity.

GISELLE
She had this sort of great over the shoulder sideways glance picture that caught my eye to
be sure. And in addition to sort of technical makeup help, I had questions about sort of
what the group meeting was going to be like, cause I had never been to one of these
before. I dunno, it was a Saturday evening, came over to Beth's place about five-ish in the
afternoon. Beth also went to the event and we talked a little bit more. She had a couple of
beers and that was, turned out to be the beginning of a fabulous relationship.

LAURA STASSI
What is it about Giselle that struck your fancy as they say?

BETH
So, sure, there's this think tank thing, but I'd never really been heard of a think tank. I had
only been in Washington for you know three years, and that was all military. But I was
really impressed that she'd been the editor-in-chief of the Army Times because I read the
Navy Times.

GISELLE
Who’da thunk it?

BETH
In the military, you know, that was on the desk every Friday in the office. My first four years
when I was at nuclear power schools and instructor. And I'm like, wow, yeah. So I was
impressed by her intellectualism and by her profession.

LAURA STASSI
How long did you all date before you decided that this was it?

BETH
We dated for about three and a half years?

GISELLE
Yeah, three and a half. I was gonna say four. So it was not it was, by contrast, my
marriage.

BETH
This is my third marriage. And this is the longest I've ever dated someone, it’s my shortest
engagement. But, we were engaged for all of like two weeks or something before we got
married. So.
GISELLE
We were, neither of us was looking to get married again. And if anything, we were gun-shy
about it. So we took our time.

LAURA STASSI
I have to say, it feels to me like you were lucky. Lucky in that, I mean, I've been divorced
now for five years?

GISELLE
I know. Yeah, I know. Luck doesn't begin to you know, as a, as a statistical proposition,
this is almost zero probability of occurring. So.

LAURA STASSI
Connecting with somebody.

GISELLE
Yeah. Yeah.

LAURA STASSI
And somebody who's clearly accepts you as you.

GISELLE
Well, and even more than that has sort of been a partner in getting me to the point where I
was ready to transition, certainly through transition. It's beyond just support. It's way
beyond tolerance. You know, it's I'm insanely happy and I feel like I’ve now able to express
a genuine love that I couldn't do before or didn't do before. But I also feel loved in a way
that I have never felt before.

LAURA STASSI
Giselle's self-acceptance allowed her to find someone who loves her for exactly who she
is, and that's made life all the better. I checked in with her recently. She said the COVID-
19 lockdown hasn't been too disruptive. For her job, she writes from home a lot anyway.
Beth's business has taken a hit, though. As Giselle told me, “there's been as much
continuity as disruption to day to day rhythms. We're just normal as hell and even started
gardening together, graying in place.” Next, we'll hear from someone who found a creative
way to spice up a long-distance relationship while staying true to her artistic values.

Are you following Dating While Gray on Facebook yet? I'm posting stuff to keep me going
while working from home. You can get updates as soon as you log on to Facebook by
searching for Dating While Gray and liking our page.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I've thought about that expression a lot
recently. With COVID-19, these feel like desperate times and I've been really strict about
following the rules for physical distancing, even though that feels like desperate measures.
But I wonder, if I had launched a relationship chest before the lockdown, would I sneak out
to be with that person? What else could I do to keep the spark alive? So I posted a poll on
the Dating While Gray Facebook page about sexting, and I heard from Ann in Maryland.
She's been dating someone long distance for about a year. Before COVID-19, they saw
each other about once a month. One of the ways they stay connected is through naughty
limericks. So I called her and asked her about it.

ANN
We stumbled into the limericks because he's part of a sailing group and they had a little
competition for writing the best limerick in their sailing group. And then he and I enjoyed
playing with that together, writing the limericks together. And then out of the blue he sent
me a limerick just for me, and I sent one back for him. And then I sent one the next day,
and the next day. And then we both said, “gee, wouldn’t it be funny if we just did this every
day?”

LAURA STASSI
Awww.

ANN
And so I write them and they're not limericks that I find. They're actually ones that I write.
And they're based on things that he and I have said or fantasies that we've shared or
funny things that have gone on between us. And so they're very personal. And I usually
write them four or five at a time and then I send him one every morning.

LAURA STASSI
Awww. So is it a way of saying hello or is it a way of keeping the spice in the relationship?

ANN
Yes. It's definitely a way of saying hello, because I needed something that was light,
something that would make us laugh and not be, “hi, how are you this morning? Are you
still in love with me?” Or something like that.

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

ANN
It felt wrong. This was very fun. It was a way also, though, to express my affection for him.
And it makes both of us laugh.

LAURA STASSI
Would you be willing to read and we can decide what we can't or can air?

ANN
Absolutely. I printed out several that I thought we could.

LAURA STASSI
Oh!

ANN
This is one we had just gone to Florida. And if you'd been in the Everglades, you know that
one of the birds there is the anhinga bird. He said, “I bet you can't write a limerick rhyming
with anhinga.” So that was my challenge. So I wrote this one, I said:

There are many a dramatic anhinga,

Drawing its feathers like an operatic singer.

Wings so widespread
Like my legs in our bed,

Ready to have your sweet tongue cunnilinga.

LAURA STASSI
You know what? That's like public radio limerick. The name of a bird. The technical term
for a sex act. Oh, I want another one.

ANN
OK. These others aren't as, as, I wasn't as worried as rest of these.

So sexy when you're brushing your teeth in the nude,

Your delicious body triggers my erotic attitude.

Your gaze in the mirror is intensely focused.

I'm caught in a state of deep hypnosis.

Knowing next comes the kisses to start a romantic interlude.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, that's sweet. So did you write limericks before you?

ANN
No.

LAURA STASSI
And did you ever sext before?
ANN
No. I've never sext with anybody. I guess when you think about traditional sexting, that has
no interest for me. That would turn me off, actually. But the limericks, because they're
written with humor and they’re, they are very, some of them are quite explicit with
language that's quite explicit. But they're, they're better to me.

LAURA STASSI
And what have you learned about yourself?

ANN
I like being creative. So this is a great outlet for me to be creative. Initially, when he and I
first started together and I was sad, all that anxiety, I was writing poems that were very
anxious and angst filled and I didn't really like sharing those. I did share some of them with
him, but I felt that I was stuck in a negative place. These helped me look at life lighter and I
want to look at life lighter because we're early in our relationship and it's feels wrong to be
angst ridden.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

ANN
Before I was writing the limericks, we were probably emailing or texting maybe once or
twice a week. And, and we're talking on the phone once or twice a week. Not a lot. And I
think that was part of my anxiety was I felt there wasn't enough communication. Now, what
was interesting was that most of the time he would reply back within about an hour and
say, “ha, ha. That was great,” or, or even just a few emojis. But there were a few times
where he did not reply all day.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, my gosh.

ANN
And the third time he did that, I contacted him midafternoon. I said, “you know what, I need
you to reply, even if it's just an emoji string, because I put a lot of me into these limericks
and I need to know that you've read them and have a response.” And he acknowledged
that, and he's been doing that ever since.
LAURA STASSI
Do you think the limericks have helped you build a relationship or maintain the relationship
or neither of the above?

ANN
I think they've helped us build the relationship because he and I, we have a very strong
sex relationship. And the affection part is there, but that's also grown over the last year.
And so I use the limericks in both capacities because some of the limericks are purely
affectionate and not even sexual at all. And it’s just what I feel like writing and feel like
sending him. We don't share these with anybody else. And even if I share a few with you,
that's not the whole repertoire. And it's very personal. And it's created a bond between us
that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

LAURA STASSI
I am really intrigued with the idea of using my creative energy to write naughty limericks as
a way to stay connected with somebody whom I love and trust. Ann found something she's
comfortable doing. It's a little racy, but she wouldn't call it sexting.

You know, it strikes me that one way to embrace our true selves is to reevaluate our
framework. One person’s sexting is another person's naughty limerick. Joani sees her
bipolar brain as a gift. It just needs managing. And Giselle found love when she learned to
love herself. As for me, I understand now that just because some people may find me
challenging and difficult does not mean I am challenging and difficult. I see myself as
curious, creative and tenacious. These character traits have led me to meet new people,
try new things, write books and magazine articles and make this show.

Dating While Gray is produced by Poncie Rutsch, Patrick Fort, Ruth Tam, Julia Karron and
me, Laura Stassi. Our theme music is by Daniel Peterschmidt and Mike Kidd mixed this
episode. WAMU’s general manager is J.J. Yore and Andi McDaniel oversees everything
we make here. We'd love to hear from you. Send an email to datingwhilegray@wamu.org,
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Thanks for listening. We'll be back next time with more stories of Dating While Gray.