James Baldwin 1968

6/6/2020 James Baldwin 1968 Interview on Race in America After Death of Martin Luther King Jr.
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James Baldwin: How to Cool It

Read the landmark 1968 Q&A on race in America.
BY ESQUIRE EDITORS AUG 2, 2017
In Esquire's July 1968 issue, published just after the death of Martin Luther
King, Jr., the magazine talked to James Baldwin about the state of race
relations in the country. We've republished the interview in full—and his words
are incredibly relevant today.
ESQ: How can we get the black people to cool it?
JAMES BALDWIN: It is not for us to cool it.
ESQ: But aren't you the ones who are getting hurt the
most?
JAMES BALDWIN: No, we are only the ones who are

dying fastest.
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a23960/james-baldwin-cool-it/ 1/34
Ted ThaiGetty Images
Can we still cool it?
That depends on a great many factors. It's a very serious question in my mind
whether or not the people of this country, the bulk of population of this country,
have enough sense of what is really happening to their black co-citizens to
understand why they're in the streets. I know of this moment they maybe don't
know it, and this is proved by the reaction to the civil disorders. It came as no
revelation to me or to any other black cat that white racism is at the bottom of
the civil disorders. It came as a great shock apparently to a great many other
people, including the President of the United States. And now you ask me if we
can cool it. I think the President goofed by not telling the nation what the civil-
disorders report was all about. And I accuse him and the entire administration,
in fact, of being largely responsible for this tremendous waste and damage. It
was up to him and the Vice-President to interpret that report and tell the
American people what it meant and what the American people should now begin
to think of it. Now!It is already, very very late even to begin to think of it. What
causes the eruptions, the riots, the revolts- whatever you want to call them- is the
despair of being in a static position, absolutely static, of watching your father,
your brother, your uncle, or your cousin- no matter how old the black cat is or
how young- who has no future. And when the summer comes, both fathers and
sons are in the streets- they can't stay in the houses. I was born in those houses
and I know. And it's not their fault.
From a very short-range approach, what should the federal

government do, right now, to cool it off?
What do you mean by the federal government? The federal government has come
to be, in the eyes of all Negroes anyway, a myth. When you say the federal
government, you're referring to Washington, and that means you're referring to a
great many people. You're referring to Senator Eastland and many people in
Washington who out of apathy, ignorance or fear have no intention of making a

move at all. You're talking about the people who have the power, who intend to
keep the power. And all they can think of are things like swimming pools, you
know, in the summertime, and sort of made up jobs to simply protect peace and
the public property. But they show no sign whatsoever of understanding what the
root of the problem really is, what the dangers really are. They have made no
attempt, whatever, any of them, as far as I know, really to explain to the
American people that the black cat in the streets wants to protect his house, his
wife and children. And if he is going to be able to do this he has to be given his
autonomy, his own schools, a revision of the police force in a very radical way. It
means, in short, that if the American Negro, the American black man, is going to
become a free person in this country, the people of this country have to give up
something. If they don't give it up, it will be taken from them.
If the American Negro, the American black

man,
man, isis going
going to
to become
become aa free
free person
person in in this
this
country,
country, the
the people
people of
of this
this country
country havehave to to give
give
up
up something.
something. IfIf they
they don't
don't give
give itit up,
up, itit will
will be
be
taken
taken from
from them.
them.
You say that existing jobs are just make-work jobs. What kind of job
program should be adopted?
It's very difficult to answer that question since the American Republic has
created a surplus population. You know it's created not only people who are
unemployable but who no longer wish to be employed in this system. A job
program involves, first of all, I would think, a real attack on all American
industries and on all American labor unions. For example, you're sitting in
Hollywood. And there are not any Negroes, as far as I know, in any of the
Hollywood craft unions: there is no Negro grip, no Negro crew member, no
Negro works in Hollywood on that level or in any higher level either. There are
some famous Negroes who work out here for a structure which keeps Negroes
out of a union. Now it's not an Act of God that there aren't any Negroes in the
unions. It's not something that is handed down from some mountain; it's a
deliberate act on the part of the American people. They don't want the unions
broken, because they are afraid of the Negro as a source of competition in the
economic market. Of course what they've made him is something much worse
than that. You can't talk about job programs unless you're willing to talk about
what is really holding the structure together. Eastman Kodak, General Motors,
General Electric- all the people who really have the power in this country. It's up
to them to open up their factories, their unions, to let us begin to work.
Julio DonosoGetty Images
They would have to begin, say, on-the-job training programs for

those..
Yes, and by the way, I know a whole lot of Negroes on the streets, baby, that are
much brighter that a lot of cats dictating the policies of Pan American. You know
what this country really means when it says on-the-job training programs is not
what they are teaching Negroes skills, though there's that, too; what they're
afraid of is that when the Negro comes into the factory, into the union, when he
comes, in fact, into the American institution, he will change these institutions
because no Negro in this country really lives by American middle-class
standards. That's why they pick up half-dozen Negroes here and there, and
polish them up, polish them off, and put them in some ass-hole college
someplace, and expect those cats to be able to go back to the streets and cool the
other cats. They can't. The price in this country to survive at all still is to become
a white man. More and more people are refusing to become a white man. That's
the bottom of what they mean by on-the-job training. They mean they want to fit
you in. And furthermore, let's tell it like it is. The American white man does not
really want to have autonomous Negro male anywhere near him.
In on-the-job training programs, the white American structure wants

a worker who is trained, who shows up regularly at eight-thirty in the
morning and works till five in the afternoon.
Yeah, well I know an awful lot of cats that did that for a long, long time. We
haven't got to be trained to do that. We don't even have to be given an incentive
to do that.
Would you say, then, that many black people have been able to go
nowhere, so they've lost any feeling that it's worth working regularly?
That is part of what we're talking about. Though it goes deeper than that, I think.
It's not only that. What is happening in this country among the young, and not
only the black young, is an overwhelming suspicion that it's not worth it. You
know if you watched your father's life like I watched my father's life, as a kid
much younger than I watches his father's life; his father does work from eight to
five every day and ends up with nothing. He can't protect anything. He has
nothing. As he goes to the grave, having worked his fingers to the bone for years
and years and years, he still has nothing and the kid doesn't either. But what's
worse than that is that one has begun to conclude from the fact that maybe in
this Republic- judging now on the evidence of its own performance- maybe there
isn't anything. It's easy to see on the other hand what happens to the white
people who make it. And that's not a very attractive spectacle either. I mean I'm
questioning the values on which this country thinks of itself as being based.
What you are calling for, then, is a radical change in thinking by

government and industry.
Yes.
And given the inertia plus..
Fear.
…and fear and whatever else there may be, any such changes seem…
…seem improbable.
Certainly they will come slow. A union will not throw open its doors
and bring on several hundred people from the black community right
away. Now my question is…
You've answered your question.
Ralph GattiGetty Images
"Sweeper jobs," then, just won't work?
No. I'll tell you what you will do. You will do what did last summer and summer
before that. You'll pour some money into the ghetto and it will end up in the
hands of various adventurers. In the first place, thirteen dollars and some change
is not meant to do anything. And a couple of cats will make it, and the rest of it
will be where they were.
But can you buy time with this kind of program; enough time for the
longer term changes?
You could if you meant it. What's at issue is whether or not you meant it. Black
people in this country conclude that you mean to destroy us.
But if industry and government seriously planned job-training

programs, and the unions opened up?
Look, the labor movement in this country has always been based precisely on the
division of black and white labor. That is no Act of God either. Labor unions
along with the bosses created the Negro as a kind of threat to the white worker.
There's never been any real kind of threat to the white worker. There's never
been any coalition between black and white. It's been prevented by the
government and the industries and the unions.
What would be the first steps a union could take to demonstrate that
it seriously wants to correct such inequities? What should the
leadership do?
Educate their own rank and file. Declare themselves. And penalize any member
of the union who is against it.
What can industry do on a short-range basis?
I'm not sure that you should be asking me these questions at all. But I'll do my
best to answer them. What can industry do? Well you know, the same as the
labor unions. The labor unions won't have Negroes in the unions above a certain
level. And they can never rise out of that local, or what they might be able to do
of they weren't trapped in that local at a certain level. Industry is going to hire
me to build a city or fly a plane. It is unable to look on me as just another worker.
There are exceptions to this rule, obviously, to be found everywhere. But this is
the way it works and the exceptions, in fact, prove the rule.
Do you think it would help if industry were to get involved as co-

sponsors of low-income housing?
No I think we've had more far more, more than enough of low-income housing
which simply becomes high-rise slums.
Well what if they were not high-rise slums?
I don't want any more projects built in Harlem, for example. I want someone to
attack the real-estate lobby because that's the only way to destroy the ghetto.
But what about building low income housing out in the suburbs
where factories are beginning to move?
Well, that depends on the will of the American people, doesn't it? That's why they
are in the suburbs—to get away from me.
What about certain plans of industry to set up factories or businesses

which would be owned by ghetto people? Would you see this as a
positive step?
What would be produced in those factories?
Piecework, small items subcontracted by larger manufacturers.
It's a perfectly valid idea except that in order to do that you have to eliminate the
ghetto. Look, it is literally true that from a physical point of view these houses are
unlivable. No one's going to build a factory in Harlem, unless you intend, you
know, really to liberate Harlem.
Well, New York State, for example, plans to build a State office
building in Harlem.
In Harlem. I know exactly where they're going to build it, too. And at the risk of
sounding paranoiac, I think I know why. It's going to be where the Black
Nationalist Bookstore is now, and one of the reasons for it, I am convinced, is
simply because the Black Nationalist Bookstore is a very dangerous focal ground-
125th Street and Seventh Avenue. You know, it's what in Africa would be a
palaver tree. It's where Negroes get together and talk. It's where all the
discontent doesn't begin, exactly, but where it always focuses.
Wouldn't you think it would be a very foolish idea, because you can
always pick some other place to meet and talk?
Yes, but the American white man has proved, if nothing else, he is absolutely,
endlessly, foolish when it comes to this problem.
Let's talk about the average citizen, the white man who lives on
Eighty-ninth Street and Riverside Drive, what should he be doing?
It depends on what he feels. It he feels he wants to save his country, he should be

talking to his neighbors and talking to his children, He shouldn't, by the way, be
talking to me.
What should he be telling his neighbors?
That if I go under in this country—I, the black man—he goes, too.
Is there any action he can take? Pressure on the local government?
Pressure on his landlord, pressure on the local government, pressure wherever

he cane exert pressure. Pressure, above all, on the real estate lobby. Pressure on
the educational system. Make them change textbooks so that his children and my
children will be taught something of the truth about our history. It is run now for
the profit motive, and nothing else.
What about the white suburbanite who fled the city, while making
sure the blacks stayed there? What does he have to do now?
If he wants to save his city, perhaps he should consider moving back. They're his
cities, too. Or just ask himself why he left. I know why he left. He's got a certain
amount of money and certain future, a car, two cars, you know, scrubbed
children, a scrubbed wife, and he wants to preserve all that. And he doesn't
understand that in his attempt to preserve it he's going to destroy it.
If
If II go
go under
under in
in this
this country—I,
country—I, the
the black
black man
man
—the
—the white
white man
man goes,
goes, too.
too.
What about the poverty program, does that offer any remedy?
Are you joking? There has not been a war on poverty in this country yet. Not in
my lifetime. The war on poverty is a dirty joke.
How would you improve it?
By beginning it.
In what fashion?
Look, there's no way in the world to do it without attacking the power of some
people. It cannot be done unless you do that. The power of the steel companies,
for example, which can both make and break a town. And they've done it, they're
doing it. Everybody knows it. You can't have a war on poverty unless you are
willing to attack those people and limit their profits.
Is it a matter of limiting the profits of industries only, or is it also a

matter of limiting the power of the politicians?
But the politicians are not working for the people; they're working for exactly the
people I say we have to attack. That is what has happened to politics in this
country. That is why the political machinery now is so vast, and so complex no
one seems to be able to control it. It's completely unresponsive to the needs of
the American community, completely unresponsive. I'm not talking only as a
black man, I mean to the whole needs of the American people.
You mean in so far as it responds to industry?
It responds to what it considers its own survival.
What would you say ought to be done to improve the relationship of

the police with the black community?
You would have to educate them. I really have no quarrel particularly with the
policemen. I can see the trouble they're in. They're hopelessly ignorant and
terribly frightened. They believe everything they see on television, as most people
in this country do. They are endlessly respectable, which means to say they are
Saturday-night sinners. The country has got the police force it deserves, and of
course if a policeman sees a black cat in what he considers a strange place he's
going to stop him—and you know of course the black cat is going to get angry.
And then somebody may die. But it's one of the results of the cultivation in this
country of ignorance. Those cats in the Harlem street, those white cops; they are
scared to death and they should be scared to death. But that's how black boys die,
because the police are scared. And it's not the policemen's fault; it's the country's
fault.
In the latest civil disorder, there seems to have been a more

permissive attitude on the part of the police, much less reliance on
firearms to stop looters as compared with last summer when there
was such an orgy of shooting by the police and the National Guard.
I'm sorry, the story isn't in yet, and furthermore, I don't believe what I read in
the newspapers. I object to the term "looters" because I wonder who is looting
whom, baby.
How would you define somebody who smashes in the window of a

television store and takes what he wants?
Before I get to that, how would you define somebody who puts a cat where he is
and takes all the money out of the ghetto where he makes it? Who is looting
whom? Grabbing off the TV set? He doesn't really want the TV set. He's saying
screw you. It's just judgment, by the way, on the value of the TV set. He doesn't
want it. He wants to let you know he's there. The question I'm trying to raise is a
very serious question. The mass media-television and all the major news
agencies-endlessly use that word "looter." On television you always see black
hands reaching in, you know. And so the American public concludes that these
savages are trying to steal everything from us, And no one has seriously tried to
get where the trouble is. After all, you're accusing a captive population who has
been robbed of everything of looting. I think it's obscene.
Would you make a distinction between snipers, fire bombers, and

looters?
I've heard a lot of snipers, baby, and then you look at the death toll.
Very few white men, granted. But there have been a few.
I know who dies in the riots.
Well, several white people have died.
Several, yeah, baby, but do you know many Negroes have died?
Many more. But that's why we're talking about cooling it.
It is not the black people who have to cool it, because they won't.
Aren't they the one's getting hurt the most, though?
That would depend on the point of view. You know, I'm not at all sure that we are
the ones who are being hurt the most. In fact I'm sure we are not. We are the
ones who are dying fastest.
The question posed, however, was whether snipers could be classified

as true revolutionaries; fire bombers, as those overwhelmed with
frustration and seeking to destroy the symbols of their discontent;
looters, as victims of the acquisitive itch?
I have to ask you a very impertinent question. How in the world can you possibly
begin to categorize the people of a community whom you do not know at all? I
disagree with your classifications altogether. Those people are all in the streets
for the same reason.
How
How in
in the
the world
world can
can you
you possibly
possibly begin
begin to
to
categorize
categorize the
the people
people of
of aa community
community whom
whom
you
you do
do not
not know
know at at all?
all?
Does some of our problem come from our flaunting the so-called
good life, with its swimming pools, cars, suburban living and so on,
before a people whom society denies these things?
No one has ever considered what happens to a woman or a man who spends his
working life downtown and then has to go home uptown. It's too obvious even to
go into it. We are a nation within a nation, a captive nation within a nation. Yes,
and you do flaunt it. You talk about us as though we were not there. The real
pain, the real danger is that white people have always treated Negroes this way.
You've always treated Sambo this way. We always were Sambo for you—you
know we had no feelings, we had no ears, no eyes. We've lied to you for more
than a hundred years and you don't even know it yet. We've lied to you to
survive. And we've begun to despise you. We don't hate you. We've begun to
despise you. And it is because we can't afford to care what happens to us,
and you don't care what happens to us. You don't even care what happens to
your own children. Because we have to deal with your children, too. We don't
care what happens to you. It's up to you. To live or to die because you make your
life that choice all these years.
What about the role of some of the black institutions. Does the
church have some meaning still in the black community insofar as the
possibility of social progress is concerned?
You must consider that the fact that we have a black church is, first of all, an
indictment of a Christian nation. There shouldn't be a black church. And that's
again what you did. We've used it. Martin Luther King used it most brilliantly,
you know. That was his forum. It's always been our only forum. But it doesn't
exist anywhere in the North anymore, as Martin Luther King himself discovered,
it exists in the South, because the black community in the South is a different
community. There's still a Negro family in the South, or there was. There is no
Negro family essentially in the North, and once you have no family you have no
church. And that means you have no forum. It cannot be used in Chicago and
Detroit. It can be used in Atlanta and Montgomery and those places. And now
since Martin is dead—not before, but certainly since he is dead—that forum is no
longer useful because people are repudiating their Christian church in toto.
Are they repudiating Christianity as well?
No more intensely than you have.
Then the black church is dead in the North?
Let me rephrase it. It does not attract the young. Once that happened to any
organization, its social usefulness is at least debatable. Now that's one of the
great understatements of the century.
In that case, what is the role of Adam Clayton Powell?
Adam Clayton Powell is not considered a pastor, he is considered a politician. He

is considered, in fact, one more victim. People who can't stand Adam would
never, never, never attacked him now. Crimes which Adam is accused of—first of
all, the people in Harlem know a great deal more about that than anybody who
has written about it. That's one thing. And for another, as long as you don't
impeach Senator Eastland, it's a bullshit tip and we know it. We're not fighting
for him, we're fighting for us.
James Baldwin with Bayard Rustin at the 1965 march from Selma to Montgomery
Stephen F. SomersteinGetty Images
What about some of the other leaders of the black community?
The real leaders now in the black community you've never heard of. Roy's not a
leader, Whitney's not a leader.
Floyd McKissick?
Floyd's not a leader either, but Floyd is closer to the tempo, to the pulse. First of
all, leaders are rare. A man is not made a leader by the mass media of this
country. A man is not made a leader in spite of all the opposition he got, even
from black people. Because that's what he was. And because he loved his people.
He loved this country.
Stokely Carmichael?
Stokely in my view is perhaps a little too young. Look, I'm nearly twenty years
older than Stokely. I can't answer that question. Stokely is a leader for a great
many people. Stokely is even more than that, Stokely is a symbol for a great
many people. A great many emasculated black boys turn to Stokely because he's
fighting against their emasculation. I understand that, and they're right. I may
have my own disagreements with Stokely from time to time but I'm on his side.
What Stokely is saying essentially is true and that is why people are so uptight
about Stokely. Because they can't deny what he is saying. And what he is trying to
do is anathema to the white people of the United States because what he is saying
is that we have no hope here. These white people are never going to do anything
for use because they cannot. Also, as long as we are on the subject of Stokely, let
me point out to you that Stokely has never said he hated white people. And I
happen to know him and I know he doesn't. What he is insisting on is black
autonomy and that puts everybody uptight. That's all he is saying. What he is
suggesting that frightens the American white people is that the Black people in
this country are tied to subjugated people everywhere in the world.
Furthermore, he is saying very clearly, and it's true, that this country, which
began as a revolutionary nation has now spent god knows how many billions of
dollars and how many thousands of lives fighting revolution everywhere else.
And what he's saying is that black people in this country should not any longer
turn to President Lyndon Johnson, who I after all at the very best (and this is an
understatement; I'm speaking for myself now) a very untrustworthy big daddy.
But to other black people, all the other people who are suffering under the same
system that we are suffering from, that system is led by the last of the Western
nations. It is perfectly conceivable, or would be if there were not so many black
people here, that the Americans decide to "liberate" South Africa. Isn't it? That is
to say to keep the horrors of communism away, all the freedom fighters in South
Africa would turn South Africa into another Vietnam. No one is fooled about
what you are doing in Vietnam. At least no black cat is fooled by it. You are not
fighting for what the Western world calls material self-interest. And that means
my back. My stolen tin, my stolen diamonds, my stolen sugar. That's what it
means; it means I should work for you forever.
And I won't.
But the idea is that people who are divided by so many miles of the globe, and by
so many other things, should begin consider that they have something in
common—this is what Stokely says. What they have in common—this what
Stokely says. What they have in common is to get the man off their backs. It's a
very dangerous and frightening idea for Americans, because it happens to be
true.
Grey VilletGetty Images
Do you feel that there's a conscious understanding of American

imperialism by…
The Americans are not imperialists. According to them, they're just nice guys.
They're just folks.
But we are talking about a form of imperialism…
We're talking about the very last form of imperialism, you know—Western
imperialism anyway— the world is going to see.
But do you feel the under class of black people, given an insufficient
education, understands the specifies of this imperialism you
describe?
We understand very much better than you think we do, and we understand it
from letter we get from Vietnam.
Is there any white man who can…
White, by the way, is not a color—it's an attitude. You're as white as you think
you are. It's your choice.
Then black is a state of mind, too?
No, black is a condition.
Who among the white community can talk to the black community
and be accepted?
Anybody, who doesn't think of himself as white.
White,
White, by
by the
the way,
way, is
is not
not aa color—it's
color—it's an
an
attitude.
attitude. You're
You're as
as white
white as
as you
you think
think you
you are.
are.
It's
It's your
your choice.
choice.
Among the Presidential candidates, whom do you feel would be
accepted as speaking in good faith? Richard Nixon?
You must be joking.
Nelson Rockefeller?
Maybe, that would depend very much on what he does now. I don't put him
down.
What about Robert Kennedy?
What about Robert Kennedy indeed! Bobby's a very, very, very bright man. The
best thing said about Bobby Kennedy, and I'm not trying to cop out on this, was
said by Al Calloway in that rather curious issue about Soul that Esquire just did.
Al said that if Soul could be studied and learned, he'd learn it. He'd study and
learn, but it can't be studied and learned. I've had one very publicized thing with
Bobby so that anything I say is suspect. He's very bright, and all the liberals will
be on his bandwagon. He will probably be President. Almost surely he will be.
And what can I say? I have to leave it open. I, myself, will not be on that
bandwagon. I think he's very shrewd but I think he's absolutely col. I think he
may prove to be, well, very dangerous.
He's very attractive. He says all of the right things, you know, not always at the
right time. And I can see the kind of appeal he'd have; after all, he is the brother
of J.F.K. But I'm in another position. I have to be as clearheaded as I can be
about it and look beyond the particular event or the particular man. I could not
myself put my life in his hands.
Do you know of Eugene McCarthy?
Nothing at all. I can't discuss him. But I ought to say that it's been a very long
time since I've had any respect for any politician. I have to say, too, that I'm
looking through the political spectrum from the standpoint of my rather bitter
forty-three years in this country. What I'm also saying is that if I endorse
anybody, no matter what it means, I don't want to tell black people to vote for so-
and-so or him or her because I don't want to be killed by those black people
when they discover they've been betrayed.
Hubert Humphrey?
Forget it.
Do you care to expand on that?
No, just forget it. I point to his record since he became Vice-President. The
flaming liberal.
Photo 12Getty Images
Do you think the riots can be considered in another light than simply
an outburst against the system? Are they possibly also, consciously or
unconsciously, a struggle to bring to a culture purification by blood?
Well, that refers back to Thomas Jefferson, I think, who said, "I tremble for my
country when I reflect that God is just."
He also said that the tree of liberty should be watered with blood…
The blood of tyrants. We call it riots, because they were black people. We
wouldn't call it riots if they were white people.
What does the death of Martin Luther King signify?
The abyss over which this country hovers now. It's a very complicated question
and the answer has to be very complicated question and the answer has to be
very complicated, too. What it means to the ghetto, what it means to the black
people of this country, is that you could kill Martin, who was trying to save you,
and you will face tremendous opposition from black people because you choose
to consider, you know, the use of violence. If you can shoot Martin, you can shoot
all of us. And there's nothing in your record to indicate you won't, or anything
that would prevent you from doing it. That will be the beginning of the end, if
you do, and that knowledge will be all that will hold your hand. Because one no
longer believes, you see—I don't any longer believe, and not many black people in
this country can afford to believe— any longer a word you say. I don't believe in
the morality of this people at all. I don't believe you do the right thing because
you think it's the right thing. I think you may be forced to do it because it will be
the expedient thing. Which is good enough.
I don't think that the death of Martin Luther King means very much to any of
those people in Washington. I don't think they understand what happened at all.
People like Governor Wallace and Mister Maddox certainly don't. I would doubt
very much if Ronald Reagan does. And that is of course where the problem lies,
with the institutions we mentioned earlier. But to the black people in this
country it means that you have declared war. You have declared war. That you do
intend to slaughter us, that you intend to put us in concentration camps. After
all, Martin's assassination–whether it was done by one man or by a State
Trooper, which is a possibility; or whether it was a conspiracy, which is also a
possibility; after all I'm a fairly famous man, too, and one doesn't travel around—
Martin certainly didn't without the government being aware of every move he
made— for this assassination I accuse the American people and all its
representatives.
Every
Every time,
time, including
including the
the time
time the
the President
President
was
was murdered,
murdered, everyone
everyone insisted
insisted itit was
was the
the
work
work of
of one
one lone
lone madman;
madman; no no one
one can
can face
face the
the
fact
fact that
that this
this madness
madness has
has been
been created
created
deliberately.
deliberately.
For me, it's been Medgar. Then Malcolm. Then Martin. And it's same story.
When Medgar was shot they arrested some lunatic in Mississippi, but I was in
Mississippi, with Medgar, and you don't need a lunatic in Mississippi to shoot a
cat like Medgar Evers, you now, and the cat whoever he was, Byron de la
Beckwith, slipped out of the back door of a nursing home and no one's ever heard
from him since. I won't even discuss what happened to Malcolm, or all the
ramifications of that. And now Martin's dead. And every time, you know,
including the time the President was murdered, everyone insisted it was the
work of one lone madman; no one can face the fact that this madness has been
created deliberately. Now Stokely will be shot presently. And whoever pulls that
trigger will not have bought the bullet. It is the people and their representatives
who are inciting to riot, not Stokely, not Martin, not Malcolm, not Medgar. And
you will go on like this until you will find yourself in a place from which you can't
turn back, where indeed you may be already. So, if Martin's death has reached
the conscience of a nation, well then it's a great moral triumph in the history of
mankind, but it's very unlikely that it has.
Some people have said that the instant canonization by white

America is the cop-out…
It's the proof of their guilt, and the proof of their relief. What they don't know is
that for every Martin they shoot there will be ten others. You already miss
Malcolm and wish he were here. Because Malcolm was the only person who
could help those kids in the ghetto. The only person.
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I was just about to say, we white people…
…wished that Malcolm were here? But you, the white people, no matter how it
was done actually, technically, you created the climate which forced him to die.
We have created a climate which has made political assassination

acceptable…
…which made inevitable that death, and Medgar's and Martin's. And may make
other deaths inevitable, too—including mine. And all this in the name of
freedom.
Do you think "cooling it" means accepting a culture within a culture,

a black culture as separate?
You mean, white people cooling it?
Yes.
White people cooling it means a very simple thing. Black power frightens them.
White power doesn't frighten them. Stokely is not, you know, bombing a country
out of existence. Nor menacing your children. White power is doing that. White
people have to accept their history and their actual circumstances, and they
won't. Not without a miracle they won't. Goodwill won't do it. One's got to face
the fact that we police the globe–we, the Americans, police the globe for a very
good reason. We, like the South African black miners, know exactly what they're
protecting when you talk about the free world.
Black
Black power
power frightens
frightens white
white people.
people. White
White
power
power doesn't.
doesn't.
Are there some viable black institutions that…
Why does a white country look to black institutions to save it?
Well, to begin a dialogue, to find out what should be done…
That is up to you.
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But doesn't white America need instruction from…
…the streets of any ghetto.
But on the streets of any ghetto can you learn…
Ask any black junkie what turned him into a junkie.
But what I'm after are programs that you can work with.
What you mean by programs is a way of alleviating the distress without having it
cost you anything.
Well, even, if we're willing to spend the money…
I'm not talking about money.
But if we are willing to change our point of view…
Well, then, the person to talk to is first of all your own heart, your wife, your
child. It's your country, too. I've read a great deal about the good white people of
this country since I came back to it in 1957. But it's the good white people of this
country who forced the black people into the streets.
I've read a great deal about the good white

people
people ofof this
this country.
country. But
But it's
it's the
the good
good white
white
people
people ofof this
this country
country who
who forced
forced the
the black
black
people
people into
into the
the streets.
streets.
Do you think it counts for anything having a mayor like John Lindsay
walking the streets?
I like John Lindsay. Just because he walks the street, perhaps. Or for the same
reasons I like J.F.K., you know, with enormous reservations. He's somewhere
near the twentieth century at least.
What kind of President should we have? Would a black President

help?
You're going to need somebody who is willing, first of all to break the
stranglehold of what they call the two-party system. John Lewis was right on the
day of the March on Washington, when he said we can't join the Republican
Party— look who that is made up of. We can't join the Democratic Party—look
who's in that party. Where's our party? What we need is somebody who can
coalesce the energies in this country, which are now both black and white, into
another party which can respond to the needs of the people. The Democratic
Party cannot do it. Not as long as Senator Eastland is in it. I name him, to name
but one. I certainly will never vote for a Republican as long as Nixon is in that
party. You need someone who believes in this country, again, to begin to change
it. And by the way, while we're on this subject, on of the things we should do is
cease protecting all those Texas oil millionaires who are one of the greatest
menaces any civilization has ever seen. They have absolutely no brains, and a
fantastic amount of money, fantastic amount of power, incredible power. And
there's nothing more dangerous than that kind of power in the hands of such
ignorant men. And this is done with consent of the federal government.
Are there any natural allies for the black people?
We're all under the same heel. I told you that before. We are all under the same
heel. That's why everyone was so shocked when Fidel Castro went to Harlem.
They think Negroes are fools, as Langston Hughes put it once. Second-class fools
as that.
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You feel that any people who are oppressed outside the United States
are natural allies for the black Americans?
Yes, From Cuba… to Angola. And don't think the American government doesn't
know that. This government which is trying to free us is also determined we
should never talk to each other.
In The Fire Next Time, you questioned whether the black people want
to be integrated into a burning house. Do you still feel they do not
have the same goals of materialism as the white man?
I think Stokely's right when he says that integration is another word, you know,
the latest kind of euphemism for white supremacy. No, I don't want to be
integrated into this house or any other house, especially not this burning house. I
don't want to be become… like you. You, the white people. I'd rather die than
become what most white people in this country have become. What one is after is
something else, which is exactly what Martin was after, and this community. You
know, I just want you to leave me alone. Just l-e-a-v-e-m-e-a-l-o-n-e! And then
we can take it from there. And above all, leave my child alone.
Do you think that the local community control of schools is

necessary?
Schools and policemen.
Why policemen?
Look, we live in Harlem, let's say, or we live in Watts. The mother who comes
down there with his cap and his own gun in his holster, he doesn't know what my
day is like. He doesn't know why I get drunk when I do. He doesn't know
anything about me at all. He's scared shitless of me. Now, what the fuck is he
doing there? All he can do id shoot me. He's a hired concentration-camp keeper.
I can police my own community far better than you ever will. Because you can't.
It's not in you to do it. I know why somebody there is upset when he is upset. The
cats were right when they were told by somebody, some cop, some leader, some
mayor to go home. They said you go home—we are home, baby. We can take care
of ourselves. This is the message we're trying to get across; we don't need you to
take care of us. Good Lord, we can't afford to have you take care of us any longer!
Look what you've done. To us. And to yourselves in taking care of us. No. I think
the black people in this country should run their own schools, and run their own
police force. Because you can't do it. All you can do I bring in tanks and tear gas
—and call the National Guard when it gets too tight. And think you can fight a
civil war and a global war at the same time.
We
We don't
don't need
need you
you to
to take
take care
care of
of us.
us. Good
Good
Lord,
Lord, we
we can't
can't afford
afford to
to have
have you
you take
take care
care of
of
us
us any
any longer!
longer!
There used to be a New York City regulation that a policeman
couldn't reside in the precinct to which he was assigned. You are
saying that the regulation should require him to live there.
Yeah, I'm telling you that.
Do you have any hope for the future of this country?
I have a vast amount of determination. I have a great deal of hope. I think the
most hopeful thing to do is to look at the situation. People accuse me of being a
doom-monger. I'm not a doom-monger. If you don't look at it, you can't change
it. You've got to look at it. And at certain times it cannot be more grim. If we
don't look at it, we won't. If we don't change it, we're going to die. We're going to
perish, every single one of is. That's a tall order, a hard, hard bill to pay; but you
have been accumulating it for a very long time. And now the bill is in. It is in for
you and your children, and it is in all over the world. If you can't pay your bill.
There's nothing more that you can do to me, nothing more at all. When you, in
the person of your President, assure me that you will not tolerate any more
violence, you may think that frightens me. People don't get frightened when they
heard that, they get mad. And whereas you're afraid to die, I'm not.
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So the one thing that is fairly certain about cooling it is that the
National Guard…
I am not the one to be cooled.
But it can be said that the National Guard, the police, tear gas, these
methods are not the answer.
I suggest that the mayor of every city and the President of this nation go on the
air and address the white people for a change. Tell them to cool it.
In the most recent disturbances, why have certain black leaders

attempted to get other black people off the streets?
To save their lives. Not as a favor to you. Nobody wants this generation to die.
Except the American people.
You would say, then, that we have a lot to answer for?
I'm not trying to accuse you, you know. That's not the point. But you have an
awful lot to face. I don't envy any white man in this century, because I wouldn't
like to have to face what you have to fade. If you don't face it, though it's a matter
of your life or death. Everyone's deluded if they think it's a matter of Sambo's life
or death. It isn't a matter of Sambo's life or death, and it can't be, for they have
been slaughtering Sambos too long. It's a matter of whether or not you want to
live. And you may think that my death or diminution, or my disappearance will
save you, but it won't. It can't save you. All that can save you now is your
confrontation with your own history…which is not your past, but your present.
Nobody cares what happened in the past. One can't afford to care what happened
in the past. But your history has led you to this moment, and you can only begin
to change yourself by looking at what you are doing in the name of your history,
in the name of your gods, in the name of your language. And what has happened
is as though I, having always been outside it —more outside it than victimized by
it, but mainly outside it—can see it better than you can see it. Because I cannot
afford to let you fool me. If I let you fool me, then I die. But I've fooled you for a
long time. That's why you keep saying, what does the Negro want? It's a
summation of your own delusions, the lies you've told yourself. You
know exactly what I want!
All
All that
that can
can save
save you
you now
now is
is your
your confrontation
confrontation
with
with your
your own
own history—which
history—which isis not
not your
your past,
past,
but
but your
your present.
present.
So that when we come to you with the question, How do we cool it?
All we're asking is that same old question, What does the Negro
want?
Yes. You're asking me to help you save it.
Save ourselves?
Yes. But you have to do that.
Speaking strictly, from your point of view, how would you talk to an
angry black man ready to tear up the town?
I only know angry black men. You mean, how would I talk to someone twenty
years younger than I?
That's right.
That would be very difficult to do. I've tried, and I try it, and I try it all the time.
All I can tell him, really, is I'm with you, whatever that means. I'll tell you what
I can't tell him. I can't tell him to submit and let himself be slaughtered. I can't
tell him that he should not arm, because the white people are armed. I can't tell
him that he should not let anybody rape his sister, or his wife, or his mother.
Because that's where it's at. And what I try to tell him, too, is if you're ready to
blow the cat's head off—because it could come to that—try not to hate him, for
the sake of your soul's salvation and for no other reason. But let's try to be better,
let's try—no matter what it costs us— to be better than they are. You haven't got
to hate them, though we do have to be free. It's a waste of time to hate them.
This interview originally appeared in the July 1968 issue

of Esquire Magazine. Read every Esquire story ever
published on Esquire Classic.

James Baldwin 1968

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James Baldwin 1968

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6/6/2020 James Baldwin 1968 Interview on Race in America After Death of Martin Luther King Jr.

James Baldwin: How to Cool It

BY ESQUIRE EDITORS AUG 2, 2017

ESQ: How can we get the black people to cool it?

JAMES BALDWIN: It is not for us to cool it.

JAMES BALDWIN: No, we are only the ones who are

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Can we still cool it?

From a very short-range approach, what should the federal

Washington who out of apathy, ignorance or fear have no intention of making a

If the American Negro, the American black

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They would have to begin, say, on-the-job training programs for

In on-the-job training programs, the white American structure wants

What you are calling for, then, is a radical change in thinking by

And given the inertia plus..

You've answered your question.

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"Sweeper jobs," then, just won't work?

But if industry and government seriously planned job-training

What can industry do on a short-range basis?

Do you think it would help if industry were to get involved as co-

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Well what if they were not high-rise slums?

What about certain plans of industry to set up factories or businesses

What would be produced in those factories?

Piecework, small items subcontracted by larger manufacturers.

It depends on what he feels. It he feels he wants to save his country, he should be

What should he be telling his neighbors?

That if I go under in this country—I, the black man—he goes, too.

Is there any action he can take? Pressure on the local government?

Pressure on his landlord, pressure on the local government, pressure wherever

How would you improve it?

Is it a matter of limiting the profits of industries only, or is it also a

You mean in so far as it responds to industry?

It responds to what it considers its own survival.

What would you say ought to be done to improve the relationship of

In the latest civil disorder, there seems to have been a more

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How would you define somebody who smashes in the window of a

Would you make a distinction between snipers, fire bombers, and

I know who dies in the riots.

Well, several white people have died.

Aren't they the one's getting hurt the most, though?

The question posed, however, was whether snipers could be classified

Are they repudiating Christianity as well?

No more intensely than you have.

Then the black church is dead in the North?

In that case, what is the role of Adam Clayton Powell?

Adam Clayton Powell is not considered a pastor, he is considered a politician. He

What about some of the other leaders of the black community?

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Do you feel that there's a conscious understanding of American

But we are talking about a form of imperialism…

Is there any white man who can…

Then black is a state of mind, too?

No, black is a condition.

Anybody, who doesn't think of himself as white.

You must be joking.

What about Robert Kennedy?

Do you know of Eugene McCarthy?

Do you care to expand on that?

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What does the death of Martin Luther King signify?