Pierre Boulez in Interview (2): On Elliott Carter, 'A Composer Who Spurs Me on'

Author(s): Philippe Albèra and Pierre Boulez

Source: Tempo, New Series, No. 217 (Jul., 2001), pp. 2-6
Published by: Cambridge University Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/946866
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Philippe Albera
Pierre Boulez in Interview (2): on Elliott Carter,
'a composer who spurs me on'

(In Tempo 216 PierreBoulez, interviewed by Simon Penthodeand the Clarinet Concerto.
Mawhinney, talked about his own recent music. The PA: Yousay you werestruck,from thefirst timeyou
presentinterview,conducted in French,in ParisinJune heardthe FirstStringQuartet,by the rhythmicaspect
2000 was published under the title '... un Compositeur of Carter'swriting...
qui m'obligea avancer...';it appearsherein Englishfor PB:Yes, I was immediatelyfascinatedby his rhyth-
thefirsttime,translated by Sue Rose.) mic writing. I think the principle of rhythmic
modulation is particularlyinteresting. The shifts
PHILLIPE ALBERA: When did youfirst get to know in rhythmic values are perfectly clear where they
Carter'smusic? occur in the writing; the rhythmic relationships
PIERRE BOULEZ: It was at a Domaine Musical reach their fullest expression, as it were, when
concert in the early 1950s. I didn't know Carter they can be heard. In some cases, however, you
at that time: the Parrenin Quartet suggested we have to rely on the metronomic relationships.
include his FirstStringQuartetin the programme. You realize this when conducting, because if
I then met him briefly at the SIMC Festival in you're not in control of what you hear, the
Baden-Baden where Le Marteausans Maitrewas rhythmic modulations are executed more
given its first performance. His Cello Sonata, a loosely. This idea is found in a simpler form in
work still clearly influenced by the neoclassical Stravinsky'swork. More often than not, he used
style, was performed there. Much later, around relationships of 3 to 2 or 4 to 3, as in the
the mid-1960s, I heard the Double Concerto for SymphoniesforWindInstruments, a work which is
Piano and Harpsichord and I got to know him entirely based on rhythmic relationshipsof 2, 3,
much better then. and 4.
PA:Carter's writingwas basedon completelydifferent PA: Do you thinkthat Carter'snotionof metricmod-
principlesto thoseof serialwriting,althoughit wasjust ulationstemsdirectlyfromStravinsky?
as innovative:how did you regardit at the time? PB: Probably. From Stravinskyand Nancarrow.
PB: I was very interested in it! The First Quartet In actual fact, it was Carter who introduced me
had intrigued me in the early 1950s because the to the latterat the time of the Double Concerto.
style of writing was completely different from His music made a great impression on me! But
ours, particularlythe rhythmic writing, which is the relationshipsin his work are always precise
extremely complex. I remember being even because they are executed mechanically,although
more struck by his use of rhythm than by his you have to identify the units to detect them.
treatment of intervals.When I studied his scores PA: Yourconceptof note durationswas very diferent
in depth and got to know him better, which was to Carter'sin the 1950s. Did your discoveryof the
in the 1960s - and we had already come a long principlesof metricmodulationcauseyou to alteryour
way from Darmstadt- I was very interested in approach?
exploring his concept of form, with those lay- PB: Yes, Carter's music gave me a great deal of
ered structuresthat resemble charactersin a play. food for thought, particularly after I began
I then asked him to explain several of his works conducting his works. My approachat that time
to me, such as the Concerto for Orchestra, for was, in fact, a point-based one, from which I
example, a work which I subsequently played was trying to distance myself since I was well
on numerous occasions, especially on tour. I aware of its limitations; as a result, in my Third
then commissioned the Symphony of Three Piano Sonata, I introduced the idea of blocks of
Orchestrasfor the New York Philharmonic time. This is because, in a strictly point-based
Orchestra. Since then, I've always taken a keen style of writing, there are, by force of circum-
interest in his work and we have included stances, statisticallymany more long values than
almost all his pieces for smaller forces in the short values, so that the pulse does not rely on a
Ensemble InterContemporain's programme, primordialequality between the differentvalues.
including two works that we commissioned: This is also why, at the time, I decomposed the
 PierreBoulez in Interview(II): on Elliott Carter,'a composer
chords:to ensure that the tempo was determined
by the act of decomposing the chords rather
than by a single value. Another point of interest
in Carter'smusic was the principleof the written-
out accelerandiand ritardandiwhich are often
found in his music and which are extremely
effective. One might say that these are primarily
gestures;but, in Carter'swork, they form part of
the structurealong with various intricatelyover-
laid values.
PA: Youraisedthequestionof harmonyat a veryearly
stagewithintheserialmovement,whichinitiallydidn't
pay muchattentionto it. How didyou regardCarter's
systemin this domain,a systemwhichfurthermore he
formalizedquiteearly?
PB: He explained his system of intervals to me
when we were working together. His principle
entailed focusing on certain dominant intervals
which resulted in a comparativesimplificationof
the harmonic structure. I found this interesting,
but it didn't have a great impact on me because
I have another way of working, even though I
too base my writing on harmonic concepts. To
my mind, a chord or an initial interval can
generate many things, either when it proliferates
or when it becomes distorted. In my experience,
the myriad possible combinations must always
already exist within the cell, so to speak. I per-
sonally work from proliferatingor symmetrical
chords organized around an axis; in my view,
what is important is the parallel reproduction,
the symmetrical reproduction or the defective
reproduction in the actual structure of the
harmonic writing. To these, you could also add
unrecognizable reproduction, where the same
elements are placed in a completely different
order, in inverted registers:you can just about
hear it's the same combination, but you cannot
say why. So there are several stages:total identi-
fication, partial identification which changes
progressively and variation which alters the
position of the elements and where it is as much
as you can do to recognize the density.
Detection, in these circumstances, comes too
early or too late: if one knows there will be fifths
and seconds, it is too early and if one says to
oneself: 'Yes, that's right, there were fifths and
seconds all over the place', realization has
occurred after the event, too late. My concept
of harmonic structure is therefore very different
from Carter'sidea.
PA: Did you discussall thesecompositional issuesand
conceptswith him?
PB: Yes, we discussed a great many things! But
when I think back now, I would say that ulti-
mately what appealed to me most about his
work were his ideas about form: the principle of
who spursme on' 3
continuity, in which forms are superposed,
cancel each other out, reappear,begin anew...
This is an extremely complex idea, so complex
in some cases that it becomes difficult to follow,
as for example in the Third String Quartet. That
work reveals a speculative approach that makes
it possible to view the form in a completely fresh
light, eschewing the usual conventions or
received wisdom. I didn't accept all Carter's
ideas unquestioningly, of course, but they made
a great impression on me and this is particularly
evident in my more recent works.
PA: Whatdo you thinkof Carter'sorchestral writing?
PB: His orchestral writing is well thought-out
and perfectly executed but I wouldn't say it's the
most innovative aspect of his work: I don't
think his use of timbre is as inventive as his use
of rhythm or form. By this, I mean that there are
no unusual sounds, no sounds that strike the ear
because they've never been heard before. The
orchestrais certainly not used in a conventional
manner, but the instruments are used for their
traditionalqualities:majesticbrass,eloquent wind,
etc. Carter doesn't make use of trompe-l'oeil,
perspective or the relationship between a real
object and a virtual object, which can be found
at a fairly simple level in the later work of
Debussy, or in Stravinsky'sFirebird,or again in
works by Strauss, who was a great illusionist
when it came to orchestral writing. Carter's
writing is more akin, in this respect, to the type
of orchestralwriting produced by composers in
the Viennese School. Carter's work presents a
direct transcriptionof the musical idea.
PA:This is the distinctionRavel made between
'instrumentation'and 'orchestration'...
PB: Absolutely. And Ravel was also a great
illusionist. In Carter's work, the discourse is
more important than the instrumentsused. This
is also evident in his piano writing, which is
unmoved by the idea of virtuosity, as Liszt saw
it. However, I personally am very fond of this
aspect: when composing for the piano, I'm
naturallydisposed towards virtuosity, which can
generatesoundsthathave neverbeen heardbefore.
PA:In yourview, does Carter'smusicfallwithin the
traditionof the American ultra-modernism of the
1920s, particularlythe musicof Ruggles?And, more
generally, what is its position in Americanmusic
today?
PB: With regard to the American music scene,
you might say it is very isolated, particularly
now. This is actually why I'd compare him to
Ruggles, although obviously he has written
much more than him. Ruggles also came up
with some non-tonal solutions, but he lacked a
systematic approach which probably prevented
4 PierreBoulez in Interview(II): on Elliott Carter, 'a composerwho spursme on'
Elliott Carterand PierreBoulez areseen togetherin New Yorkin 1977, duringrehearsals
him from writing a great deal, because you need
a systematic approach if you are to develop your
ideas. I think, on the other hand, that Carter's
music is very different from that of Ives, who
tacklestrite ideas and eccentric subjectsin a fairly
loose form.
What I find interesting about Carter's work,
in comparison with someone like Messiaen,
who belongs to the same generation, is that he
took a long time to find his own voice.
Messiaen was himself right from the start: his
early works, despite Franck's clear influence,
used a modal language that was alreadyhis own:
it is completely unmistakable. Then his work
underwent a fairly sudden change, at the time of
the Etudes de Rythme and Chronochromie: he
headed off in a different direction. In his final
period, you get the feeling that he wanted to
salvage some of the earlier elements. Carter, on
the other hand, began almost anonymously. I
read through his ballet Pocahontasonce and if I
had not alreadyknown it was by Carter, I would
never have guessed he was the composer: it is
more like Copland than Carter now! So he
has gradually progressed towards a completely
personal style of music, revealing a steady devel-
opment that has become increasingly marked
with the passing years. Because he did a lot of
researchat one time and because he spent a great
for Carter's'A Symphonyof ThreeOrchestras'
deal of time exploring ideas, he composed at a
relatively slow pace. And then, suddenly, the
music started to flood out, as though someone
had opened the sluice gates.
There are also various historicalreasonsfor this
slow process of maturation. When I organized a
mini-festival in New York to celebrate the
centenary of Ives's birth, I took a closer look at
musical life in the United States in the 1920s and
I realised that those years were marked by a
great deal of avant-garde activity. Varese was
one of the key figures. There were some
extremely interesting composers around, such as
Ruth Crawford Seeger, for example. However,
after the economic crisis of 1929, there was
nothing, which was also reflected in the world
of art: at the time, people were urging artiststo
produce large mural paintings, as in Mexico.
This could be seen in dance with Martha
Graham and in music with the populist trend.
And the fascinatingthing is that this corresponded
in every respect to Russian populism under
Stalin. The parallelbetween American populism,
linked to the collapse of the capitalist system
(which was to be reinstated)and socialistrealism,
linked to the crisis in the Communist system in
the hands of a dictator, is actually very striking:
it happened at exactly the same time. In all
likelihood, Carter's need to extricate himself
 who spursme on'
PierreBoulez in Interview(II): on Elliott Carter,'a composer 5

from such a background accounts for his slow other. His formal structureis based on intervals,
development. on tempo, on categories that don't form part of
PA: Thereis something aboutCarter'sisolation, the German tradition. He developed his style in
symbolic
particularly in America,with regardto thepositionof deliberate ignorance of the German tradition or
the modern composer:was this unavoidable,the as a rejection of it, not only with all its faultsbut
inevitableresultof the hiatusbetweenthe demanding also with all its qualities.
composer and thepopularmusicalconsciousness? PA: Yourmusicusuallycontainsgesturesthat imme-
PB: Yes, at the outset. But, in Carter's case, the diately reveal the structures;Carter'smusic on the
problem may also be caused by the fact that he contraryis linked to characteristics associatedwith
is not an 'appealing'composer: he doesn't try to intervals,rhythmsand instruments...
win anyone over. This is why it is sometimes PB: The idea of dramatizing the instrumental
hard to convince those who have reservations discourse,the concept of instrumentalcharacters,
about him. To my mind, this is due to his can already be found in baroque music. For
notion of sound. Some of his pieces, such as example, in Bach's sixth Brandenburg Concerto,you
Penthode,for example, are rather austere, which have various different and variable instrumental
can put people off. In terms of sound, one of his groups, with dialogues between the groups and
most appealing works is A Mirroron Which to differentcombinations.Carterhas, fundamentally,
Dwell. Personally, I like austerity but I'm very the same approach to groups as certain baroque
interested in the phenomenon of sound and I composers.In his work, the groupsare established
have nothing against charm. The way in which once and for all and there are exchanges, as in a
the sounds are presented can create a feeling of game of draughts, when you take one piece
pleasure that improves our ability to make out with another. This also points to a difference of
the form, for example. This createsa sense of bal- approach between us. I would actually find it
ance which can bring in other musical elements very difficultto begin a composition with a pre-
that are harderto grasp;in other words, the phe- determined group, except in chamber music, of
nomenon of sound can be all-inclusive. course. When confronted by an orchestra, I can
PA: Have you everhad difficultyconvincingorchestra see an infinite number of possible combinations
directorsto performCarter'sworks, particularlyin and I don't like focusing on one over another.
America? PA: Doesn't this conceptual stem, in Carter's
difference
PB: Ah, but if I'm sure about something, I don't case,from a styleof writingbasedon expansivemelodic
care what anyone thinks: I do it anyway! I know lines?
how difficultI myself have found these works and PB: Yes, but you can clothe a long melodic line
I'm in direct contact with them, so I don't take in a variety of different sounds! Take the
offence at difficultiesexperiencedby others... 'Recitative' from Schoenberg'sPiecesforOrchestra
PA: One has thefeelingthat Carterstandsoutsidethe opus 16, or Erwartung,for example. Obviously,
traditional comparison between Schoenbergand this creates problems with regard to weight and
Stravinskyand, by extension, betweena state of balance which are difficult to solve in a practical
heightened subjectivityanda typeof musicalobjectivity, manner. Carter adopted this principle in
as Adornoonceexpressedit... Penthode,at least partially. For my part, I find
PB: Quite simply I believe that Carter has little Schoenberg's orchestra around the period of
in common with the Germantradition.He trained Erwartung very appealing:it is highly differentiated
in Europe under Nadia Boulanger, in other and, at the same time, very dangerous, because
words under Stravinsky'stutelage, without any there is a huge divide between the instrumentalists
contact at all with the German tradition. He who are playing the same chord both without
totally rejected Wagnerism and Romanticism, as being able to preparein advance, since the con-
did composers like Stravinskyor Milhaud. Even figurations change constantly, and without
now, it isn't easy to persuade him to go and being able to make corrections after the event.
listen to a Mahler symphony! He doesn't like There are moments of conflict between these
music like that. He regards it as a completely continual transformations and moments of
alien mode of expression. greater stability, such as the interlude at the end
PA: But, paradoxically,he has developeda feelfor of the first scene of Erwartung.This dramatic
large-scaleforms whichdoesn'tfall within the French effect, suspendedbetween orderand chaos, which
tradition... Schoenberg could have developed even further,
PB: Yes, but he doesn't structure these forms in was used by Carter as a formal organizational
the same way: his works have no Durchfuhrung, element. In his Concerto for Orchestra, for
in the strictsense of the word; there areno themes example, there are 'chaotic' moments harmoni-
opposing, complementing or distorting each cally speaking that are extremely difficult to
6 PierreBoulez in Intewiew(II): on Elliott Carter,'a composer
who spursme on'

master because no one combination is more
important or more compelling than another.
This means there are no longer any poles. I
think his most recent works demonstrate a
wonderful resolution of this dialectic between
order and chaos.
PA: Wouldit befeasibleto say thatCarteris moreakin
to you than mostcomposers by dint of his challenging
languageand craftsmanship?
PB: Yes, absolutely,and that is probablythe reason
I've performed his work so often: his music
doesn't do anything for effect, he has no need
for distractions. He is a composer who makes
me think about the present, about fundamental
issues; he spurs me on and makes me question
what I'm doing. In this respect, I'd even go so
far as to say that he's one of the few composers
I find interesting!

(This interview forms the preface to the symposium

Elliott Carter,ou le tempsfertileedited by Max Noubel
- the firstvolume in French devoted to Carter and his
music - recently published by Editions Contre-
champs, and has been translated for Tempoby kind
permission.)

Boosey & Hawkes Music Publishers Limited

Elliott Carter
New works
Cello Concerto (2000) 20' Oboe Quartet (2001) 17'
for cello and orchestra for oboe and string trio
Worldpremiere: 27 September 2001 Worldpremiere: 2 September 2001
Symphony Hall, Chicago Yo-Yo Ma, St Mattheuskirche, Lucerne
Chicago Symphony Orchestra Heinz Holliger,Thomas Zehetmair,
conducted by Daniel Barenboim Ruth Killiusand Thomas Demenga
Other performances:
28/29 September, Chicago Thisperformanceis partof a Carterfeature
28 October, Carnegie Hall, New York at the LucerneFestival,also including:
Partita,AllegroScorrevole,Asko Concerto,
Foran interviewwith ElliottCarterabout Oboe Concerto,Quintetfor Piano and
the new concerto, please visitourwebsite Winds,Quintetfor Piano and Strings
at www.boosey.com/publishing Fordetails visitwww.lucernemusic.ch/

BOOSEY HAWKES
295 Regent Street, London W1 R 8JH Tel: 020 7580 2060 Fax: 020 7637 3490
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