Deposition of Premises Security Expert Albert Ortiz

Page 1
CAUSE NO. 09CV2313
MOSAMMAT SHAHINA RAZU, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT

Individually, as Wrongful )
Death Beneficiary of ABDUL )
H. MEJE, deceased, and as )
Next Friend of MOHAMMED )
MEJE, a Minor, as Wrongful )
Death Beneficiary, and Heir)
Of the Estate of ABDUL )
H. MEJE )
Plaintiffs, )
)
VS. ) GALVESTON COUNTY, TEXAS
)
ABHI ENTERPRISES, INC., )
d/b/a GALVESTON CITGO STOP,)
STRIPES, LLC, successor by )
merger of SSP PARTNERS )
f/k/a SSP PROPERTIES, VIII,)
LP, & SUSSER PETROLEUM )
COMPANY, LLC, f/k/a )
SUSSER PETROLEUM MANAGEMENT)
COMPANY, LLC, successor by )
merger of SUSSER )
PETROLEUM, LP )
Defendants. ) 10TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
****************************************************
THE ORAL & VIDEO DEPOSITION OF
ALBERT ORTIZ
FEBRUARY 14, 2011
****************************************************
THE ORAL & VIDEO DEPOSITION OF
ALBERT ORTIZ, produced as a witness at the instance
of the Plaintiffs, and duly sworn, was taken in the
above-styled and numbered cause on the 14th day of
February, 2011 from 10:06 a.m. to 5:59 p.m., before
JULIE VERASTEGUI, CSR in and for the State of Texas,
Maxene Weinberg Agency

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1 reported by stenographic and computer-aided 1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED
2
2 transcription at Porter, Rogers, Dahlman & Gordon, FOR THE DEFENDANT STRIPES, LLC SUCCESSOR BY MERGER
3 745 East Mulberry, Suite 450, San Antonio, Texas 3 OF SSP PARTNERS F/K/A SSP PROPERTIES, VIII, LP, &
4 78212, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil SUSSER PETROLEUM COMPANY, LLC, F/K/A SUSSER
4 PETROLEUM MANAGEMENT COMPANY, LLC, SUCCESSOR BY
5 Procedure and the provisions stated on the record or MERGER OF SUSSER PETROLEUM, LP:
6 attached hereto. 5
MR. RAJ S. AUJLA
7 6 PORTER, ROGERS, DAHLMAN & GORDON
8 Attorneys at LAW
9 S-T-I-P-U-L-A-T-I-O-N-S 7 745 East Mulberry, Suite 450
San Antonio, Texas 78212
10 8 PHONE: 210.547.9329
11 It is further stipulated and agreed FAX: 210.736.1992
9 E-MAIL: raujla@prdg.com
12 by and between counsel for the respective parties 10
13 hereto that the original of the deposition of 11 ALSO PRESENT:
14 MR. ALBERT ORTIZ shall be sent to MR. RICK F. ROGERS 12 HOWARD ESSE,
The Videographer;
15 at One Shoreline Plaza, 800 North Shoreline, Suite 13
16 800S, Corpus Christi, Texas 78401 for the purpose of ALBERT ORTIZ,
14 The Witness; and
17 obtaining the signature of the witness thereon 15 JULIE VERASTEGUI,
18 before any notary public. Certified Court Reporter.
16
19 It is further stipulated and agreed 17
20 by and between counsel for the respective parties 18
21 hereto that the original exhibits marked in the 19
20
22 deposition of MR. ALBERT ORTIZ shall be returned to 21
23 MR. RAJ S. AUJLA, 745 East Mulberry, Suite 450, 22
23
24 San Antonio, Texas 78212. 24
25 25
Page 3 Page 5
1 APPEARANCES 1 I-N-D-E-X
2
3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 2 WITNESS:
4 3 ALBERT ORTIZ PAGE
MR. PIERCE M. ADKINS 4 Stipulations ................................. 2
5 LEGER ADKINS, LLP
Attorneys at Law 5 Appearances .................................. 3&4
6 Shepherd Place 6 Index ........................................ 5-7
2323 South Shepherd Drive, Suite 915
7 Houston, Texas 77019
7 Examination by Mr. Adkins .................... 9
PHONE: 713.574.5558 8 Examination by Mr. Rogers .................... 290
8 FAX: 713.574.1894 9 Examination by Mr. Adkins .................... 291
E-MAIL: pmadkins@legeradkins.com
9 10 Witness Signature Page ....................... 301
10 11 Reporter's Jurat ............................. 303
FOR THE DEFENDANT ABHI ENTERPRISES, INC. D/B/A 12
11 GALVESTON CITGO STOP:
12 13 EXHIBITS
MS. NATALIYA KHARMATS 14 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
13 YOUNG & HUSAIN, P.C.
Attorneys at LAW
15 Exhibit 69 Plaintiff Mosammat Shahina 10
14 2700 Post Oak Boulevard, Suite 1220 Razu's Amended Notice of
Houston, Texas 77056 16 Intention to Take the Oral
15 PHONE: 713.621.8900
FAX: 713.621.8909 And Videotaped Deposition
16 E-MAIL: nkharmats@yhlawfirm.com 17 Of Albert Ortiz
17
18 FOR THE DEFENDANT STRIPES, LLC SUCCESSOR BY MERGER
18 Exhibit 70 Mr. Ortiz' Notes 12
OF SSP PARTNERS F/K/A SSP PROPERTIES, VIII, LP, & 19 Exhibit 71 Mr. Ortiz' Curriculum Vitae 18
19 SUSSER PETROLEUM COMPANY, LLC, F/K/A SUSSER 20 Exhibit 72 Mr. Ortiz' Trial and Deposition 19
PETROLEUM MANAGEMENT COMPANY, LLC, SUCCESSOR BY
20 MERGER OF SUSSER PETROLEUM, LP: Testimony History
21 MR. RICK F. ROGERS 21
PORTER, ROGERS, DAHLMAN & GORDON Exhibit 73 Google Images 66
22 Attorneys at Law
One Shoreline Plaza 22
23 800 North Shoreline, Suite 800S Exhibit 74 Exhibits 64 Through 67 74
Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
24 PHONE: 361.880.5820
23 From Warren Deposition
FAX: 361.880.5844 24 Exhibit 75 Police Reports 112
25 E-MAIL: rrogers@prdg.com 25
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
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1 Exhibit 76 Defendants, Stripes LLC's 114
and Susser Petroleum Company, 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
2 LLC's Supplemental Motion
For Traditional Summary
2 My name is Howard Esse, CLVS, representing the
3 Judgment and Supplemental
Summary Judgment Evidence;
3 Maxene Weinberg Agency. This is Job 4224.
4 Deposition of Dhanraj Sunder
Amin
4 The time is 10:06 a.m. on
5 5 February 14th, 2011. We're convening at 745 East
Exhibit 77 Plaintiffs' Second Amended 114
6 Petition 6 Mulberry in San Antonio, Texas. Today's deponent is
7 Exhibit 78 Defendants, Stripes LLC's 116
And Susser Petroleum 7 Albert Ortiz, testifying in Mosammat Shahina Razu
8 Company, LLC's Second Amended
Original Answer
8 vs. ABHI Enterprises, Inc. The cause number is
9
Exhibit 79 Plaintiffs' Responses to 116
9 09CV2313 in the 10th District Court of Galveston
10 Defendants' Request For
Disclosure
10 County, Texas. Today's court reporter is
11 11 Julie Verastegui.
Exhibit 80 Defendants, Stripes LLC's 117
12 And Susser Petroleum 12 Would the attorneys please identify
Company, LLC's Traditional
13 And No-Evidence Motion For 13 themselves and make any stipulations for the record,
Summary Judgment on Plaintiffs'
14 Claims and Request For Oral
14 please?
15
Arguments 15 MR. ADKINS: Pierce Adkins. By the
16
Exhibit 81 Central Security Group
Nationwide, Inc. Deposition
117 16 Rules.
on Written Questions 17 MR. ROGERS: I'm Rick Rogers for
17
Exhibit 82 Defendants, Stripes LLC's 117 18 Susser and Stripes, and I agree by the Rules.
18 and Susser Petroleum
Company, LLC's Responses to 19 MS. KHARMATS: Nataliya Kharmats
19 Court Ordered Production
From Plaintiffs' June 30, 2010
20 for ABHI Enterprises.
20 Motion to Compel Hearing
21 Exhibit 83 Plaintiffs' Objections and 118
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: If there are no
22
Response to Defendants'
Stripes, LLC and Susser
22 more stipulations, the deponent may now be sworn in.
Petroleum Company, LLC's 23 ALBERT ORTIZ,
23 Traditional and No Evidence
Motion for Summary Judgment; 24 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
24 Various Other Documents
25 25 -o0o-
Page 7 Page 9
1 Exhibit 84 Plaintiffs' Supplemental 118 1 EXAMINATION
Response to Defendant Stripes,
2 LLC and Susser Petroleum 2 BY MR. ADKINS:
Company, LLC's Traditional 3 Q. Can you please state your name?
3 and No Evidence Summary Judgment
4 Exhibit 85 Various Police Records From 120 4 A. Albert Ortiz, O-R-T-I-Z.
Galveston Police Department 5 Q. And, Mr. Ortiz, have you taken your dep --
5
Exhibit 86 CD of Store Surveillance 124
6 you've taken a deposition before --
6 Videos 7 A. Yes.
7 Exhibit 87 CD of Convenience Store 124
Pictures - 1/13/11
8 Q. -- correct? How many times?
8 9 A. Oh, probably 40 or 50 times, I guess.
Exhibit 88 Expert Report of Harold Warren 124 10 Q. So you don't need me to go through all the
9
Exhibit 89 Expert Report of Dr. M.D. Moore 125 11 rules that --
10 12 A. No, sir. I think I understand. Thank you.
Exhibit 90 Document Printed from fbi.gov, 235
11 "Successes in Gang Enforcement 13 Q. All right. Do you go by any nicknames
From Coast to Coast" 14 or --
12
Exhibit 91 Color Copy of Photographs 283
15 A. No, sir.
13 16 Q. What's your current physical address for
Exhibit 92 Business Record Affidavit 293 17 your home?
14
15 18 A. 3926 River Falls, San Antonio, Texas 78259.
16 19 Q. And what's your residential telephone
17
18 20 number?
19 21 A. 210-545-6659.
20
21 22 Q. Can you please give me your age, date of
22 23 birth, Social Security number?
23
24
24 A. My age is 59. I was born October the 25th
25 25 of 1951. My Social Security number is 453-96-7662.
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
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1 Q. And in what capacity are you here today? 1 MR. ADKINS: What are we at? 68?
2 A. As an expert witness. 2 I'm sorry.
3 Q. For whom? 3 MR. ROGERS: 60 -- 70 now.
4 A. For Susser and Stripes. 4 MR. ADKINS: 70. All right. I'd
5 Q. Okay. Anybody else? 5 like to have those marked as Exhibit 70.
6 A. No, sir. 6 MR. ROGERS: When -- Whatever
7 Q. Do you have a copy of the deposition -- the 7 exhibits we take out of his file, then I want you to
8 notice of deposition -- 8 copy them and then return the originals -- Well,
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 just return the originals to our office here, and
10 Q. -- for today? 10 then we'll get them back to Albert.
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 Why don't you put it up -- That's
12 Q. Is that what's in front of you? 12 all right.
13 A. Yes. 13 (Exhibit 70 marked.)
14 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have the 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did you bring all
15 document marked as Exhibit A to the deposition. 15 correspondence with you today regarding this case?
16 MR. ROGERS: 69 would be our 16 A. Yes.
17 next -- 17 Q. And could you identify that? Or is it in
18 MR. ADKINS: I'm sorry. 69. 18 here?
19 There we go. 19 A. It -- It's all in here.
20 (Exhibit 69 marked.) 20 Q. I think I pulled it.
21 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) In going through the -- Did 21 A. You've got all of it, yes.
22 you bring with you the records that are listed there 22 Q. Could you pull out your correspondence from
23 on Exhibit A? 23 that pile?
24 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. 24 A. Sure. The -- The correspondence I'm
25 MR. ROGERS: I guess, Pierce, for 25 referring to are the letters that Mr. Rogers,
Page 11 Page 13
1 the record, we brought you an entire box of 1 through his law firm, sent me. Is that what you're
2 material, which was his entire file on this case, 2 referring to?
3 and produced it to you a little while ago. 3 Q. Any correspondence to or from you regarding
4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And these are -- Everything 4 this case.
5 that's in this box that was brought, that's 5 A. (Complying.)
6 everything that you've reviewed to date in this 6 Q. I'm going to hand you the three documents
7 case, correct? 7 that you handed to me. And is -- are you
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 representing that that's all the correspondence
9 Q. Did you bring any -- Did you have any 9 that's been sent to you or sent by you in this case?
10 notes? Or did you bring any notes with you with 10 A. Yes. These are -- Well, this is
11 respect to today's testimony or -- 11 Dr. Moore's written opinion, yes. That was sent by
12 A. Yes. They're -- 12 e-mail.
13 Q. -- your expert opinion? 13 Q. Okay.
14 A. They're in there. The yellow -- The yellow 14 A. And I sent my written opinion by e-mail and
15 papers are in there. 15 faxed the original to the law firm -- Mr. Rogers'
16 Q. Okay. Are these your notes? 16 law firm.
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Okay. And did you bring a copy of those
18 MR. ADKINS: Okay. I'd like to 18 e-mails?
19 have that marked as Exhibit B. 19 A. No, sir. All it was, was, "Attached is my
20 THE WITNESS: Can I at some point 20 written opinion."
21 get a copy? These are my originals. 21 Q. Okay. Could you get that for me?
22 MR. ROGERS: Yeah. We'll -- 22 A. I don't know if I saved that or not.
23 We'll -- The court reporter will copy these, and the 23 Q. So you disposed of the correspondence?
24 originals will be returned to us. 24 A. Yeah, I -- I think. I -- I'll check my --
25 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. Very good. 25 my e-mail -- my trash file, but I don't -- I don't
4 (Pages 10 to 13)
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1 believe I did. All I did was call him and say, "I'm 1 A. I'd have to look at the list from my
2 going to -- I have my written opinion. How do you 2 written opinion. I believe you -- you've got it.
3 want it?" And he said, "E-mail it to me and send me 3 MR. ROGERS: Need another copy,
4 the original." That was it. 4 Albert?
5 Q. Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. The deposition
6 A. But -- And the -- the entire gist of the 6 of -- And I apologize for the pronunciation -- of
7 e-mail was -- besides the address line, was, "Here 7 Dhanraj Amin, the deposition of Bhupendra Vyas, and
8 it is." 8 the uncertified copy of Dr. Moore's -- or
9 Q. Okay. But today, you don't have a copy of 9 Harold Warren's deposition.
10 that, correct? 10 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) In prep --
11 A. No, sir. And I will check that trash file 11 A. That's -- That's not included in this list.
12 to see if I -- if I kept a copy of that. 12 This was later.
13 MR. ADKINS: All right. Rick, if 13 Q. No problem. And in preparing your expert
14 you can get that to me. 14 report in this case, did you review the deposition
15 MR. ROGERS: Sure. 15 transcript of Britton Smithson?
16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Have you compiled any data 16 A. No, sir.
17 or damage calculations or anything in this case? 17 Q. In preparing your expert opinion in this
18 A. No, sir. 18 case, did you review the deposition of Tim Leskovec?
19 Q. Okay. 19 A. No, sir.
20 MR. ROGERS: Let me be sure I'm 20 Q. Did you review the deposition of Calvin S.
21 clear with that question. You said has he compiled 21 McIntosh in preparation to give your opinion in this
22 any data or damage calculations. He's not here as a 22 case?
23 damage expert. He's here as a -- as designated in 23 A. No, sir.
24 his CV and in his report. 24 Q. In preparation to give your opinion in this
25 MR. ADKINS: I understand. 25 case, did you review the deposition transcript of
Page 15 Page 17
1 MR. ROGERS: Okay. 1 Russell Johnson?
2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did you bring with you any 2 A. No, sir.
3 articles, books, treatises, journals, periodicals, 3 Q. In preparation to give your expert opinion
4 pamphlets or anything that you based your opinion 4 in this case, did you review the deposition of
5 on? 5 Patrick Albro?
6 A. No, sir. 6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Did you base your opinion on any articles, 7 Q. In preparation to give your expert opinion
8 journals, reports -- 8 in this case, did you review the deposition
9 A. No, sir. 9 transcript of Chris Dial?
10 Q. -- studies? 10 A. No, sir.
11 A. No. Just what's in the file. 11 Q. In preparation to give your expert opinion
12 Q. Okay. Did you bring any field notes 12 in this case, did you review the deposition of --
13 related to your inspections of the premises? 13 MR. ROGERS: E.V. Bonner.
14 A. No. No. I don't -- I didn't make any. 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) -- E.V. Bonner?
15 Q. Okay. 15 A. No, sir.
16 A. That -- But they are included in my -- 16 Q. Okay. And so nothing in your opinion is --
17 my -- my observations were included in my written 17 is based on those depositions, obviously?
18 opinion. 18 A. No, sir. I didn't see those.
19 Q. Okay. But you didn't write down any notes 19 Q. And you didn't consider anything in those
20 while you were at -- at the site? 20 depositions in -- in prep -- in preparing your
21 A. No. No. I don't recall doing that. I -- 21 expert opinion in this case, correct?
22 I didn't have anything to write on, actually. 22 A. I didn't even know they existed. No, sir.
23 Q. Okay. Let's see. What depositions did you 23 Q. All right. Did you bring with you a copy
24 review in prep -- in preparation to give your 24 of your current curriculum vitae?
25 opinion in this case? 25 A. Yes. I believe it's in one of these
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1 documents here. I know I've provided one to 1 Q. Can you explain for each block of time what
2 Mr. Rogers, and I think it's in -- 2 you did?
3 MR. ROGERS: It's right in front of 3 A. Sure. The -- Just go line by line, you
4 you. 4 mean?
5 THE WITNESS: And I have -- I have 5 Q. For -- No. I'm not talking about line by
6 a copy here. 6 line. I'm talking about how much time you spent.
7 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. Let me see it. 7 It says five hours there. What did you do during
8 A. Sure. 8 that five hours?
9 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that 9 A. Oh, I see. I read the Plaintiffs' Second
10 marked as Exhibit 71. 10 Amended Petition, the Stripes and Susser Petroleum
11 (Exhibit 71 marked.) 11 Second Amended Original Answer, the Plaintiffs'
12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Have you published any 12 Responses to Defendants' Request for Disclosure,
13 books or texts or any articles? 13 Stripes and Susser's Petroleum Traditional and No
14 A. No, sir. 14 Evidence Motion Summary Judgment, Stripes and Susser
15 Q. Did you bring with you a list of all cases 15 Petroleum Supplemental Motion for a Motion for
16 that you've appeared by way of deposition or trial 16 Summary Judgment with -- with attachments.
17 testimony? 17 I started the deposition of
18 A. Yes, sir. I've provided those too. 18 Mr. Vyas -- And, again, if I mispronounce that, it's
19 Q. Where is that? 19 V-Y-A-S -- and the Central Security Group Depo on
20 A. I thought I saw them. I know I definitely 20 Written Questions, Stripes and Susser Petroleum
21 brought them, and I saw them in your hand. There 21 Response to Court Ordered Deduction from 6/30/10
22 you go. 22 Motion to Compel Hearing.
23 Q. Thank you. 23 Q. And so that was your first five hours?
24 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 marked as Exhibit 72. 25 Q. Okay. What did you do in your next group
Page 19 Page 21
1 (Exhibit 72 marked.) 1 of time? And can you point to the camera --
2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did you bring any documents 2 A. The next two --
3 regarding your compensation or fee arrangement with 3 Q. -- where that is on there?
4 Susser and Stripes in this case? 4 A. Yeah. The next two hours occurred on
5 A. No. I haven't filed any -- any bills. 5 January the 9th of 2011. That was for two hours.
6 Q. Okay. Do you have a -- a fee schedule? 6 The Plaintiffs' Objections and Responses to
7 A. Yeah. It's on my written opinion. It's 7 Defendants' Motion for Summary Judgment, a review
8 $200 an hour. 8 and analysis of crime data, the Plaintiffs'
9 Q. Okay. Do you keep time? 9 Supplemental Response to Defendants' Motion for
10 A. Yes. 10 Summary Judgment.
11 Q. Did you bring anything with you today that 11 And then we go over to January the
12 shows the time that you spent reviewing this case? 12 10th of 2011, 4.75 hours. I reviewed a crime
13 A. There's a running tabulation on -- on my 13 reports crime analysis from the -- from the listing,
14 notes here on the -- on the side. But other than 14 and -- and --
15 that, no, I don't. At this point, I think I've got 15 Q. And when was that?
16 about 62 hours in the case. 16 A. On January the 10th of 2011. And reviewed
17 Q. And I believe you're referring to what's 17 the, quote, unquote, "Summary of Violent Crimes
18 been marked as Exhibit 70. 18 Report." On 1/11 of 2011, two hours and 25 minutes,
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 again, I continued the review and crime analysis.
20 Q. Can you please point out to the camera 20 Q. Continue.
21 where those hours are? 21 A. On that same date, later on that day,
22 A. They're on the left-hand column. 22 3.5 hours, again, review of the crime analysis data
23 Q. For each? 23 and the capital murder investigation file relevant
24 A. For each block of time that I've spent on 24 to this case.
25 the case. 25 On the night of 1/11 through the
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1 morning of 1/12, for three hours I continued the 1 Q. Besides the meeting with, it looks like --
2 crime analysis review of the data and reviewed all 2 Who was the investigating officer you say you met
3 the information that I had in preparation for a 3 with?
4 meeting with Mr. Aujla. 4 A. Detective Paige.
5 Q. I'm sorry. Could you spell that, please? 5 Q. Detective Paige. Did you meet with any
6 A. A -- Mr. A-U-J-L-A. I believe it's Aujla. 6 other witnesses in this case?
7 Q. And who is that? 7 A. Dr. Moore was at that meeting with
8 A. It's that gentleman over there. He's in 8 Detective Paige, and I think that's it.
9 the law firm with Mr. Rogers. 9 Q. So you never had any conversations with
10 Q. Okay. 10 anybody at Susser or Stripes or -- or anybody at
11 A. Then on 1/12/11, I traveled to the law firm 11 ABHI?
12 here, and I met with Mr. Aujla. We reviewed the 12 A. No, sir.
13 store video shooting of Mr. Meje. 13 Q. Okay. What about with ABHI's attorneys?
14 Q. Continue. 14 A. No, sir.
15 A. On 1/13/11, we traveled to Galveston, 15 Q. Can I see the -- your curriculum vitae?
16 Texas. We visited the site and met with Officer 16 A. Yes.
17 Detective Alfred Paige of the Galveston Police 17 Q. Tell me a little bit about your employment
18 Department. He was the lead investigator on the 18 history, starting with, it looks like, when you
19 capital murder investigation of Mr. Meje. And 19 began working in the law enforcement industry.
20 again, I -- I apologize if I'm mispronouncing his 20 A. Okay. Well, my entire career was with the
21 last name. 21 San Antonio Police Department, 33-and-a-half years.
22 Q. Continue. 22 I started as a police cadet and worked all my way up
23 A. On 1/16, again I reviewed the material, 23 through chief of police.
24 started preparing to compose my written opinion. 24 Q. And what were the various positions that
25 Q. You can continue. I'm -- I'm just writing. 25 you had?
Page 23 Page 25
1 A. Oh, okay. On 1/17/11, I reviewed the 1 A. When I first entered, well, I, of course,
2 surveillance video, the records from the Galveston 2 was police cadet. That's a six-month course of
3 Police Department number -- numbered SS1274 through 3 instruction at the San Antonio Police Academy.
4 SS1292; store photographs, which are numbered SS1293 4 I graduated in December of 1972 and
5 and SS1325, and I continued constructing the written 5 served as a patrolman, which is the first responder
6 opinion. 6 uniform patrol, for seven-and-a-half years. During
7 On 1/28/11, I reviewed the expert 7 that time, I was also what they now call field
8 report by Harold Warren. That was 3.5 hours. 8 training officer, which is an officer who trains
9 1/29/11, again, review of notes and phone 9 police cadets when they graduate from the academy,
10 consultation with Mr. Rogers. On 2/1/11, again I 10 and served as a SWAT team member in conjunction with
11 had a phone conference with Mr. Rogers, continued my 11 my other duties.
12 written opinion construction and reviewed the 12 I was promoted to detective. I
13 violent crime stats that were provided. 13 believe it was 1980. And I served as evidence
14 On 2/3/11, I was finalizing my 14 technician, now commonly referred to as CSI, crime
15 written opinion and notifying Mr. Rogers that I was 15 scene investigator, for about six or eight months.
16 in -- finalizing it. 16 And I was recruited to work in the vice unit as an
17 Q. And how did you notify him? 17 undercover detective, and I served in that capacity
18 A. By telephone. It was a phone conference. 18 for about two-and-a-half years before I was promoted
19 Q. Okay. 19 to sergeant.
20 A. On 2/12, I received some files from 20 As a new sergeant, I served on
21 Mr. Rogers -- That was the uncertified copy of 21 patrol on the city's east side for about eight
22 Mr. Warren's deposition with exhibits -- and 22 months also before I was recruited to go back to the
23 reviewed those -- read those. And then yesterday, 23 vice unit and be the night commander. After about a
24 2/13/11, I reviewed all the material and had a 24 year, I requested a transfer to homicide. I was
25 meeting with Mr. Rogers and Mr. Aujla. 25 transferred to homicide and was in charge of the sex
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1 crimes unit. 1 San Antonio College in public administration, a
2 At that time, the sex crimes unit, 2 bachelor's degree from Southwest Texas State
3 assaults and murder investigations were three 3 University in applied arts and sciences with
4 subunits within homicide. I mention that only 4 emphasis on criminal justice, and a master's degree
5 because, later on, the sex crimes unit became a 5 from now Texas State University in criminal justice.
6 stand-alone unit. And so I served in that capacity 6 Q. And when did you obtain your master's
7 for about one year before I got promoted to 7 degree?
8 lieutenant. 8 A. I'm sorry?
9 As a new lieutenant, I was asked to 9 Q. When did you obtain your master's degree?
10 create the first gang unit for the San Antonio 10 A. I think that was 1997, I believe.
11 Police Department. It was a combination gang unit, 11 Q. Okay. And when did you obtain your
12 directive patrol unit called special operations 12 bachelor's --
13 unit. I served in that capacity for a year. 13 A. I take -- I'm -- I'm sorry. I think the
14 We got a new chief. He asked me to 14 master's degree -- I apologize. I believe it was in
15 go back to homicide and be the commander of the 15 2002. I was already the police chief, I believe.
16 homicide unit. We handled murders, attempted 16 Of -- The bachelor's might have been in 1997. I
17 murders, all the assaults from simple assaults all 17 don't recall offhand.
18 the way to aggravated assaults, kidnappings and so 18 Q. Was it in 2004?
19 forth, and all of the sex crimes, child abuse cases. 19 A. It should be on there. Sorry about that.
20 I served in that capacity for five years. 20 Q. No problem.
21 I requested a transfer to the 21 A. Yes. Master's in 2004, the bachelor's
22 intelligence unit and received that transfer. And 22 degree in 1997, the associate's degree in 1989.
23 for two years, I was the commander of the 23 Thank you.
24 intelligence unit. Then I was promoted to captain. 24 Q. Are you currently a member of any law
25 I believe that was in 1994. 25 enforcement associations or --
Page 27 Page 29
1 I was a commander of the property 1 A. Just the FBI National Academy Associates,
2 crimes unit. That only lasted about six weeks 2 which is a group of officers who -- I graduated from
3 before I was appointed deputy chief and placed in 3 the FBI National Academy.
4 charge of the criminal investigations unit, which is 4 Q. And what is that?
5 the commander of all investigative units on -- on 5 A. The FBI National Academy is one of the most
6 the San Antonio Police Department. 6 prestigious schools in the world, actually. They
7 I served in that capacity for about 7 select -- Well, they ask the chief of police of
8 five years before the chief created a chief of staff 8 various agencies to pick some of their brightest
9 position, which was just a new title, more 9 administrators, supervisors, and they go to a
10 responsibilities, and essentially I ran the 10 three-month accelerated course of instruction there
11 day-to-day operations of the department. 11 at the academy in police management and strategies
12 Then -- I believe I served in that 12 and so forth, the -- actually, the latest in the law
13 capacity for about two years before. Under a new 13 enforcement fields.
14 contract agreement, the position of assistant chief 14 They also allow you during those
15 was created, and I was appointed assistant chief. I 15 three months in -- in Quantico to go to the
16 believe I served in that capacity for about four 16 University of West Virginia and take courses there
17 years before becoming the chief of police in 2002. 17 that are law enforcement related as part of the
18 I was the chief of police from 2002 18 curriculum.
19 to 2006, four years on the dot almost. 19 Q. And how long have you been a member of the
20 Q. All right. We'll get back to that. Where 20 FBI NA?
21 did you go to school? 21 A. Since 1987 when I graduated -- I went in
22 A. High school, South San Antonio High School 22 1987.
23 here in San Antonio. 23 Q. And are you currently a member?
24 Q. And did you go to college? 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 A. Yes. I have an associate's degree from 25 Q. And besides the three-month course with the
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1 FBI NA, are there any other seminars or training 1 attended those? Was it --
2 programs that you've attended? 2 A. It would have been from --
3 A. Yes, sir. The Drug Unit Commander School 3 Q. Would it be easier if it would have been
4 put on by the Drug Enforcement Administration. We 4 from when you were the chief of police?
5 attended required training by the State for a 5 A. No. To -- Probably from the year 2000 to
6 week-long training at Sam Houston State University, 6 the time I retired, 2006.
7 which is required by -- of all police chiefs in the 7 Q. Okay. So you started attending those when
8 state of Texas. 8 you were assistant chief of police?
9 I attended, at least once a year, 9 A. Yes, sir. Uh-huh.
10 the Major City Chiefs Association seminars. They 10 Q. And what -- what led you to retire?
11 meet every quarter. 11 A. Well, a couple of things. One, I tricked
12 Q. Is that part of the N -- FBI NA? 12 myself. I always considered myself a street cop,
13 A. No, sir. No. That's a -- 13 and for the last 15 years of my career I was more of
14 Q. I'm just asking about that one right now. 14 an administrator. I was far removed from real
15 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 15 police work.
16 Q. Is that Drug Unit Commander School part 16 And 33-and-a-half years, your
17 of -- 17 pension benefits match just about what you would be
18 A. That was a separate training. No, sir. 18 getting if you worked, so I had maxed out my pension
19 Q. Okay. So that's an entirely 19 benefits and was ready for -- for retirement.
20 different thing? 20 Q. You refer to yourself as a street cop. How
21 A. Yes, sir. I apologize for that. 21 long were you a street cop?
22 Q. All right. Af -- With respect to the FBI 22 A. Well, the first seven-and-a-half years of
23 NA, are -- are there any seminars or programs that 23 my career as a patrolman, I was a street cop. And
24 you attended besides the three months that you 24 then I worked two-and-a-half years as an undercover
25 attended -- 25 officer. So I guess the ten years. Then whenever
Page 31 Page 33
1 A. No. 1 you get promoted, you generally get sent back to
2 Q. -- the accelerated course? 2 patrol because that's usually where the vacancies
3 A. No, sir. 3 are.
4 Q. Okay. Now, in -- in addition to the FBI NA 4 So I served six months as a
5 accelerated course that you took for three months, 5 sergeant on patrol. And -- I'm sorry. About eight
6 you also took a Drug Unit Commander's School -- 6 months, and about eight months as a detective
7 A. Right. 7 criminal invest -- criminal -- crime scene
8 Q. -- course that was one week. And what else 8 investigator. And then when I created the gang
9 did you -- 9 unit, that was for another year where we were
10 A. The Major City Chiefs Association have 10 directly involved in -- in police work -- hands-on
11 quarterly meetings in which they present also the 11 police work.
12 latest technologies, the latest strategies, 12 Q. Okay. Besides the patrolman and the
13 roundtable sessions. I attended those at least once 13 undercover detective, what were the other ones?
14 a year. 14 A. Where I served as street cop?
15 They -- Well, actually, the four 15 Q. Yeah.
16 years I was chief and two years prior to becoming 16 A. Patrolman, detective, crime scene
17 chief. I attended with the chief of police at that 17 investigator. That is for the first eight months.
18 time. 18 Q. And where was that?
19 Q. Okay. So you attended a total of how many 19 A. Where was the --
20 years? 20 Q. When was that?
21 A. Six years. At least once -- once a year, I 21 A. That would have been in 1980, I believe, is
22 would go. 22 when I got promoted to detective.
23 Q. And those courses were how long? 23 Q. So basically from '72 to '83, you were a
24 A. They are three -- three days long. 24 street cop?
25 Q. And do you remember the years that you 25 A. Pretty much, yes, sir.
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1 Q. Okay. So that's, what, about 1 directive patrol unit. That's what they called it.
2 ten-and-a-half -- ten -- ten years, ten-and-a-half 2 Q. Okay. So you were on the street every day
3 years? 3 as --
4 A. Seven, nine, ten. Yeah. I'd say about 4 A. Pretty much, yes. I'd say 70 percent of
5 11 or 12, by my -- by my calculations. I guess, 5 the time. That was a small unit. 16 officers on
6 essentially, in 1987, when I went to homicide, I 6 two shifts. I supervised two sergeants. Also, you
7 was -- became more of an administrator. 7 have plenty of time to be out on the street. We
8 Q. Well, see, in 1993, you were a patrol 8 didn't have a caseload to manage.
9 supervisor, right? I mean, 1983. Correct? 9 We just went in when problems arose
10 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 10 that superceded the capacity of the regular patrol
11 Q. So you weren't a street cop then, right? 11 officer. We'd go in, clean it up and turn it back
12 A. Well, yeah. You're out on the street. 12 over to them, and then we'd leave. So we didn't
13 Q. As a patrol supervisor? 13 have a case log -- or a case -- investigations that
14 A. Yes. 14 we had to follow up on, contact witnesses and so
15 Q. Okay. So you're patrolling -- you're 15 forth. It was directive patrol, go in there and
16 supervising patrolmen on the street? 16 find out what the problem was, and -- and then we
17 A. Out on the street, yes, sir. You're 17 would leave.
18 assigned about 12 to 15 patrolmen in a certain area 18 Q. Okay. So you basically, as a lieutenant,
19 of town. My particular case, it was on the east 19 were acting as a patrol officer?
20 side of San Antonio, and you're out there with 20 A. No. You were out there supervising the
21 the -- with the officers on the street. 21 officers and helping them.
22 Q. Okay. Is it typical that sergeants are out 22 Q. Okay.
23 on the street? 23 A. You were out on the -- on the street.
24 A. It depends what position you're -- you work 24 Q. So you were on the street supervising
25 in. 25 officers?
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1 Q. So on a day-to-day basis, you were out on 1 A. Right. I'm -- Well, that's the luxury of
2 the street as a sergeant? 2 that position. You're out there on the street. And
3 A. Oh, yes, absolutely. 3 if you see a crime or -- or a suspicious activity,
4 Q. Same with the night vice unit? 4 you get to -- to act on it. In contrast, being in
5 A. Pretty much so, yes. There's a little bit 5 the office, handling paperwork for -- you don't have
6 more paperwork in night vice. But generally 6 that -- that ability.
7 speaking, I guess 80 percent of the time you're out 7 Q. When did your primary duties change from
8 in the field. 8 patrolling for crime to supervising officers?
9 Q. So what about as the sex crimes detail? 9 A. Well, that -- that's kind of a hard
10 A. The sex crimes detail, you're more into 10 question. And I think the problem that we're having
11 investigations. As a supervisor there, you're not 11 now is, when you're assigned a position and you get
12 on the -- on the street as much. You're handling 12 promoted, generally speaking, the opening is going
13 more of the administrative part of the -- of the 13 to be on patrol.
14 job, assigning cases, following up to make sure 14 So even when I got promoted to
15 they're investigated properly, that they're filed. 15 captain, normally I would have been sent back to
16 You handle any complaints from citizens, interact 16 patrol, but I wasn't. I was sent to property
17 with the district attorney's office. 17 crimes, so it -- it's hard to answer that. Now,
18 Q. Okay. So basically from '72 to '84, from 18 when you get to be a -- a captain and a lieutenant,
19 patrolman to sergeant, night vice unit, you were a 19 because of the paperwork, you're more inclined to be
20 street cop? 20 in the office than out on the street.
21 A. Yes. And then when I was appoint -- when I 21 So that's kind of a hard question
22 got promoted to lieutenant, I -- and formed the gang 22 to answer. Because even as a captain, you could be
23 unit, that was pretty much a street cop affair. 23 a street captain and be out on -- on the street
24 Q. And that was the special operations unit? 24 patrolling and -- and looking for crime, supervising
25 A. Right. That's the gang unit and the 25 your officers, see what they're doing. So it's kind
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1 of -- it -- That's the way the system works. 1 fit to give me that award.
2 I would say, in my particular 2 The same thing with Department of
3 instance, when I became a homicide lieutenant, my 3 Human Services, the contribution to child abuse
4 days of -- out on the street -- Except for, you 4 awards, the same thing. I was a sergeant, was going
5 know, some occasions when I happened to be out 5 to be a lieutenant, and I had worked closely with
6 patrolling, you'd get out of the office. Al -- 6 their caseworkers, and they saw fit to bestow that
7 Almost every administrator wants to get out from 7 award upon me.
8 behind the desk and be out on -- on the street and 8 Again, the Alamo Area Rape Crisis
9 be a street cop. 9 Center outstanding voluntary service, that was for
10 But I would say, in all fairness to 10 going above and beyond my duties and speaking to
11 you, probably in 1987, when I was transferred from 11 groups and -- and being involved with the Alamo Area
12 the gang unit to the homicide unit, my days really 12 Rape Crisis in their efforts to prevent rapes and to
13 being out on the street in a uniform were pretty 13 deal with them and see the victims through the
14 much over. 14 criminal justice system afterwards.
15 Q. Okay. So basically, whenever you were -- 15 The Texas Department of Regulatory
16 became a lieutenant of the homicide unit, you 16 and Protective Services, that was the original board
17 commanded the officers that were out on patrol and 17 that was comprised of the Medical Examiner's Office,
18 investigating the homicides? 18 the -- I believe it was child abuse -- the Texas
19 A. Well, no. And again, in -- in homicide -- 19 Department of Human Services Child Abuse -- Child
20 Q. Where you weren't out there on the street? 20 Protective Services Section. And they asked the
21 A. No, sir. I was not. 21 police department to put a representative on that
22 Q. Okay. Right. Okay. 22 board to review all child deaths in Bexar County,
23 A. Yeah. 23 see how they could have been avoided, see what the
24 Q. Here you have listed awards and honors. 24 cause was, see what we could do in the future to
25 A. Uh-huh. 25 prevent those incidents.
Page 39 Page 41
1 Q. Could you explain what those are? 1 The next one is the
2 A. If I could look at them. 2 Officer-Involved Shooting Team, which the chief of
3 Q. Briefly. 3 police -- It was brand new. Bill Gibson at the
4 A. Sure. The master peace officer 4 time, he wanted a group of the top investigators in
5 certification is the -- The agency -- The state 5 the police department to handle all incidents in
6 agency that is responsible for licensing off -- 6 which an officer shot a citizen or a citizen shot an
7 peace officers in the state of Texas and mandating 7 officer, and, again, to activate that team, and we
8 training requirements is TCLEOSE, the Texas 8 would handle all those cases no matter when they
9 Commission of Law Enforcement Officers Standards and 9 happened, 24 hours a day.
10 Education. And they set certain standards for 10 The way it was done prior to that
11 certain levels that combine your experience and your 11 was, the homicide unit would handle it and with the
12 education. 12 same investigators. So he wanted the best crime
13 And master peace officer 13 scene investigators, the best photographers, the
14 certification is the top level -- the top level in 14 best detectives, the best supervisors on this team.
15 terms of hierarchy that TCLEOSE awards. The B'Nai 15 And any time there was one of those incidents,
16 B'Rith Officer of the Year Award is just that. 16 didn't matter if it was in the middle of the night
17 The -- The department -- They ask the department to 17 or the middle of the day, the same group of officers
18 nominate an officer they thought was the officer of 18 would put that -- would conduct that investigation.
19 the year, and I -- I was chosen. 19 I -- I was -- created -- did the
20 The Distinguished Community Service 20 procedures, created it from scratch, and then I
21 Award I believe I received when I was promoted from 21 commanded it, was placed in charge of it. So it
22 sergeant and in charge of sex crimes unit, which 22 could be that -- Just for clarification, instead of
23 handles rapes and child abuse and those kind of 23 having homicide detectives and who was up next to
24 things. As I was getting promoted to lieutenant and 24 handle a case getting that case whether he was a
25 leaving that and going to the gang unit, they saw 25 good investigator or horrible investigator, the
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1 chief wanted only the best investigators. 1 A. Well, because they're very aggressive. And
2 So it could be the people in 2 as you try to -- Essentially, as you try to approach
3 robbery, people in intelligence were represented on 3 them, they don't know that you're trying to help
4 that team. It was an elite team to handle 4 them. The officer is not qualified to assess
5 officer-involved shootings. And the -- the focus at 5 whether a person is on drugs or maybe just having a
6 that time was, the department was kind of suffering 6 psychotic episode or a rage, so they try to help
7 when the community -- the image in the community is 7 them, they try to detain them, when, in reality,
8 being too quick to use force, and he wanted -- the 8 what -- what we were taught was to give them space,
9 chief wanted somebody to fix that reputation and 9 to -- to move away from them, that -- that
10 present to the community we're doing the best we can 10 approaching them, trying to help them, you know,
11 to get to the bottom of it. 11 kind of -- They're very protective of their space.
12 Created the special operations 12 And as you approach them, even though you think
13 unit, which again was the gang and -- and directive 13 you're trying to help them, they think that you're
14 patrol unit as a new lieutenant. I served on the 14 trying to hurt them.
15 board of directors, which -- of the development of 15 And so just kind of the thought
16 the Alamo Area Children's Advocacy Center back when 16 processes that these people that are having and
17 it was just basically an idea. I was a sergeant. 17 these episodes are going through so you can
18 And they wanted a center that provided all services 18 recognize them and look for it, essentially, more
19 for child abuse victims. 19 importantly, and deal with them as someone that --
20 Instead of having to go to Child 20 that you recognize may be having psychological
21 Protective Services at -- at their offices and then 21 problems or maybe mental problems instead of just
22 come to the police department to investigate crimes 22 somebody who's out there committing a -- a crime
23 and then go to the hospital, they wanted a center 23 that you see as a suspect, and to try to recognize
24 where it was one-stop shopping where the citizen 24 those signs and essentially give them -- talk them
25 could get medical, psychological, social service and 25 down, find somebody that -- a family member or a
Page 43 Page 45
1 the police services all at one stop. 1 counselor or somebody that they know and contact
2 The Pinnacle of Achievement Award 2 them, try to isolate them if at all possible instead
3 was from the Bexar Family Support Service 3 of -- Normally, the officer sees a problem, and they
4 Conference, which deal with mental health issues 4 go address it, and -- and that resulted in a lot of
5 here in Bexar County. And because of my 5 use of force, including a couple of deadly force
6 contributions in providing training for our officers 6 cases.
7 on how to deal with mentally disabled persons or 7 So I was instrumental in getting
8 people with psychological problems, they provided me 8 the training to our officers and -- and getting them
9 that award. 9 through that cycle so that -- so that we could
10 The Crisis Intervention Program 10 prevent those kinds of situations.
11 Award is essentially the same thing but from a 11 The Leadership Award was the
12 different -- from a different group. And that is, 12 San Antonio Hispanic Police Officers Organization.
13 again, being -- It was in response -- The police 13 I was a member of their organization and helped them
14 department's focus was in response to officers being 14 with fundraising and guest speakers and -- and
15 involved in a couple of discharge of firearms when a 15 raising money for scholarships.
16 person who was mentally challenged or having an -- 16 The Quality in Law Enforcement
17 an episode -- the officers really didn't know how to 17 Award, that was the League of the United Latin
18 handle those people and resulted in use of deadly 18 American Cities. LULAC had their national
19 force. 19 conference here, and they saw fit to provide me with
20 And so they wanted our officers to 20 that award.
21 be trained in how to deal with those people before 21 Q. Thank you. How long -- It says here that
22 it became a crisis and -- 22 you're married.
23 Q. And why was that? Why would mentally 23 A. Yes, sir.
24 challenged people cause officers to use deadly 24 Q. What's your wife's name?
25 force? 25 A. Liz. Elizabeth.
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1 Q. And do you have a son? 1 as an independent consultant expert on since 2006?
2 A. Yes, Daniel. 2 A. I would say about 40, I guess. Maybe about
3 Q. Daniel. And how old is your son? 3 six to eight a year.
4 A. He's 22. 4 Q. And how many of those did you testify for
5 Q. And where are you currently employed? 5 the defendant?
6 A. I'm retired. From time to time I do some 6 A. Well, in almost all of them except for --
7 consulting work. 7 for one. I -- I -- I was hired by the -- the
8 Q. So you're self-employed? 8 defense team, but I testified against the Laredo
9 A. Yes, sir. 9 Police Department officers, but I was hired by
10 Q. Do you have a company? 10 the -- by the -- the defendant.
11 A. No, not really. It's just me. I call it 11 Q. And so have you -- If you were hired by a
12 Albert Ortiz Consulting just for -- to differentiate 12 defendant in that case, have you ever testified for
13 from our other -- 13 plaintiffs since 2006 after becoming an independent
14 Q. It's a d/b -- doing business as kind of -- 14 expert?
15 A. Yes, sir. Yeah. 15 A. No, not as an expert. No.
16 Q. And how long have you been doing consulting 16 Q. Is -- I've asked you to bring with you
17 work? 17 what's been marked as Exhibit 72, which is, I
18 A. Well, I started in 1990 for the City of 18 believe, a list of cases that you've testified in,
19 San Antonio. For whatever reasons, they wouldn't 19 correct?
20 hire expert witnesses when an officer was being 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 sued, so I was asked by the city attorney if I would 21 Q. Could you hand me that, please?
22 act as a consultant and an expert on top of my 22 A. Yes.
23 duties. 23 Q. In the cases that -- In the 40 or so cases
24 I would then -- the department -- 24 that you acted as a consulting expert in -- as an
25 the chief -- They actually went to the chief and 25 independent consulting expert --
Page 47 Page 49
1 asked him if I could be assigned to do that. But it 1 A. Uh-huh.
2 was not compen -- I mean, it was part of my duties 2 Q. -- out of those cases, how many cases did
3 unless I had to work overtime or something. Then I 3 you testify as a testifying expert?
4 would get paid overtime, but... 4 A. Just those that are listed there, those --
5 Q. When did you start doing consulting work 5 Q. And how many cases is that?
6 for another company or yourself? 6 A. I believe it's eight. It's actually ten.
7 A. In 2006, after I retired. 7 I'm sorry.
8 Q. And how many cases have you testified in 8 Q. And have you ever testified for the
9 either for plaintiff or defendants? 9 defendants in this case?
10 A. Gosh. Starting in 2006 or since 1990? 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Did you testify for plaintiffs and 11 Q. Okay. And what cases on what's been marked
12 defendants prior to 2006? 12 as Exhibit 72 did you testify for the defendants in?
13 A. Yes. 13 A. For the defendants? In --
14 Q. In civil cases? 14 Q. In this case.
15 A. Yes, sir. That's -- Remember, I told you 15 A. In -- In almost all of them, yes.
16 in 1990 when -- It was police liability cases. 16 Q. So --
17 Q. Oh, okay. So you were testifying as an 17 A. All -- Ex -- Except for Kovacic. Again,
18 expert for the City? 18 it -- it was three parties, and one of the
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 defendants was the Laredo Police Department and the
20 Q. As an employee? 20 City of Laredo, and I testified against them. But
21 A. Yes. 21 for the --
22 Q. Okay. When did you begin testifying as an 22 Q. I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. I think
23 independent consultant? 23 I got you confused. I was asking about the
24 A. In 2006. 24 defendants in this particular case that we're here
25 Q. Okay. And how many cases have you worked 25 today on, Susser and Stripes. Have you ever
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1 testified for them before? 1 women?
2 A. For Stripes, yes. I believe there's one 2 A. One.
3 case, yes. 3 Q. One person?
4 Q. And which case on what's been marked as 4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Exhibit 72 did you testify for Susser and Stripes? 5 Q. And did that person have a gun or a weapon
6 A. Oh. I take it back. I didn't -- I didn't 6 of any type?
7 testify in that case. 7 A. Machete.
8 Q. Did you act as a consulting expert? 8 Q. And were they abducted by vehicle? Or were
9 A. Right. 9 they abducted by -- or how -- how did it -- Were
10 Q. And what case was that? 10 they walked off the premises? Or --
11 A. Jane Doe 1, 2 and 3 vs. Stripes. 11 A. No. Actually, the -- the -- the suspect,
12 Q. And when was that? 12 who was later convicted, jumped into their vehicle.
13 A. That was in 2010, I believe. 13 If I could back up a little bit.
14 Q. And in that case, where was that filed? 14 When you asked me when that case occurred, I was
15 A. In Brownsville. 15 talking about when I was involved in it. It was
16 Q. And is that case currently pending? 16 2010. I believe it occurred in 2007 or somewhere
17 A. No. It's been -- It was settled. 17 around there, 2006.
18 Q. It was settled? 18 Q. And who was the testifying expert in that
19 A. (Nodding.) 19 case?
20 Q. Can you tell me what the facts were in that 20 A. Well, I don't -- I don't think it ever
21 case? 21 got -- I -- I don't know, to be honest with you. I
22 A. It was a rape that occurred where the women 22 know I didn't testify. It settled before -- After I
23 were abducted from the parking lot at the 23 wrote my written opinion, it settled.
24 convenience store. 24 Q. Okay. So you provided a written opinion in
25 Q. Who were the women that were abducted? 25 that case?
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1 A. I don't recall their names right offhand. 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were they employees -- 2 Q. And do you have a copy of that written
3 A. No, sir. 3 opinion?
4 Q. -- of the store? Were they customers of 4 A. I believe I do. I -- I think I still do.
5 the store? 5 I'm not sure.
6 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And did you bring that with you
7 Q. Okay. And at what time of day were the 7 today?
8 em -- customers abducted and raped? 8 A. Oh, no.
9 A. Well, there was only one sexual assault. 9 Q. Could you provide that to Rick for me,
10 The other two were -- were abducted, were not raped. 10 please?
11 Q. Okay. So when -- at what time of day were 11 A. Yes, if I have a -- a copy. Since it's a
12 the -- 12 closed case and it's been paid off, I -- I may have
13 A. I want to say it -- 13 destroyed the file.
14 Q. -- three individuals abducted? 14 MR. ADKINS: Rick, would you mind
15 A. I want to say it was all around -- between 15 giving me that written opinion in that case?
16 10:00 and midnight. 16 MR. ROGERS: If I've got it, yeah.
17 Q. And what was the store branding at that 17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. So besides the
18 particular store? 18 abduction and rape in Brownsville -- Correct?
19 A. Stripes. 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. It was a Stripes store? 20 Q. And that occurred in, what, 2006?
21 A. (Nodding.) 21 A. Somewhere around there.
22 Q. And when you say Stripes, that's 22 Q. Around there?
23 Stripes, LLC, the defendant in this case, correct? 23 A. Yeah.
24 A. I believe so, yes. 24 Q. Okay. Besides that case that -- in which
25 Q. How many people, I guess, abducted these 25 you provided an opinion in 2010, have you ever acted
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1 as a consulting expert or a testifying expert in any 1 correct?
2 other case for the defendants? 2 A. Yes, sir.
3 A. With whom? With -- 3 Q. And in Michael Johnson vs. Philip Kory
4 Q. For the defendants in this case. 4 and --
5 A. Oh, no, sir. 5 A. Friad Reijy [sic].
6 Q. Okay. So that was the only one? 6 Q. Friad Reijy. Okay. It says, "Police
7 A. Yes. 7 liability, excessive force." You again provided
8 Q. In -- In Emily Cameron vs. City of 8 expert testimony regarding police liability; is that
9 San Antonio -- 9 correct?
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- that was a police liability case? 11 Q. And Leonore --
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 A. Madrigal.
13 Q. And you provided deposition testimony 13 Q. -- Madrigal vs. Galfiro [sic] --
14 regarding a -- the police officer's liability? 14 A. Glafiro.
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. Yep. You -- That was in Webb County. You
16 Q. Would that be for the acts of an officer? 16 provided expert testimony regarding a private
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 property accident?
18 Q. What about -- Let's see. In Cyn -- Cynthia 18 A. Yes.
19 Galvan vs. City of San Antonio, you testified again 19 Q. What is that?
20 about police liability; is that correct? 20 A. That's an accident that occurred in front
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 of a Battery's Plus store on -- in a strip mall on
22 Q. In McClure and Maxximum vs. Officer 22 private property. It occurred -- It didn't occur on
23 Biesenbach -- 23 a public street.
24 A. Biesenbach. 24 Q. What -- When you say, "private property
25 Q. Biesenbach? 25 accident," what was the private property accident?
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1 A. Yes. 1 A. A private property accident is what we call
2 Q. You provided expert testimony regarding 2 an accident that does not occur on a public street.
3 police liability; is that correct? 3 Q. Okay. So was that like a car accident?
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Let's see. In Saenz vs. Zuniga? 5 Q. Okay. Let's see. It shows here that you
6 A. Saenz. Saenz, yes. 6 testified in Kov -- Kova --
7 Q. I'm sorry. I'm horrible with names. 7 A. Kovacic.
8 A. Yes. 8 Q. Yeah. Kovacic vs. Brown.
9 Q. You again provided expert testimony 9 A. Yes.
10 regarding police liability; is that correct? 10 Q. And that was in the Southern District of
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 Laredo Federal Court.
12 Q. In Humberto Salas vs. United Independent 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 School District, you again provided expert testimony 13 Q. It shows that you testified for premises
14 regarding police liability; is that correct? 14 liability; is that correct?
15 A. That's correct. 15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And L. Bishop vs. Carolyn Clark -- I'm 16 Q. And when did you provide expert testimony
17 sorry. L. Bishop, Carolyn Clark vs. COSA -- 17 in that case?
18 A. City of San Antonio, yes. 18 A. I'd have to look at your sheet there. That
19 Q. Okay. You again provided expert testimony 19 was in February of 2010.
20 regarding police liability; is that correct? 20 Q. Of the ten cases that you provided expert
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 testimony in, how many of those are regarding
22 Q. And Michelle -- 22 premises liability?
23 A. Kanagusico. 23 A. Just that one.
24 Q. Thank you. You again provided expert 24 Q. So one out of the ten --
25 testimony regarding police liability; is that 25 A. Kovacic case.
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1 Q. In Kovacic, what did you testify about? 1 A. Right. Was -- Essentially resulted in him
2 What -- What were the facts of that case, briefly? 2 walking out in the middle of the street and getting
3 A. The issue was a young man by the last name 3 hit by that 18-wheeler.
4 of Kovacic who went to Cheers Cocktails and got into 4 Q. Okay. And what were your opinions in that
5 a fight at a birthday party -- his sister's birthday 5 case?
6 party. 6 A. Well, and I didn't find any evidence that
7 They escorted him out -- outside 7 the employees knew that the deceased was
8 the premises, called the Laredo Police Department, 8 intoxicated. He was receiving drinks from other
9 and they took him away. He was resisting and -- and 9 people. And once they -- he got into a fight, they
10 very aggressive and trying to fight, so they handed 10 escorted him out, they did what they should have
11 him over to the Laredo Police -- Police Department. 11 done, is call the police, and they turned them over
12 The officers, again, engaged in -- 12 to the police and they lost all control of him.
13 when they were changing handcuffs, he -- they got 13 They were under the impression he
14 into a struggle with him, put him in their police 14 was going to jail. So the decision to release him
15 car and -- and drove off with them. About three 15 10 or 15 minutes later, they really didn't have any
16 miles down the road, they dropped him off at a 16 control over it. So I testified that the Laredo
17 convenience store, and he went walking on the 17 police officers should not have released him and
18 highway in the middle of the road and was run over. 18 that they were negligent in making that decision.
19 Q. Okay. And who did they -- who were the 19 Q. So correct me if I'm wrong. Your opinions
20 defendants in that case? 20 in that case had to do with the police officers'
21 A. The Laredo Police Department, the City of 21 conduct following their -- their removal of the
22 Laredo and Larry Brown, who was the owner of Cheers 22 individual from the premises; is that correct?
23 Cocktails. 23 A. Well, I addressed the -- the allegations
24 Q. And who did you provide expert testimony 24 raised against Cheers Cocktail in terms of the Dram
25 for in that case? 25 Shop Act and the -- what they claimed to be an
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1 A. Cheers Cocktails. 1 assault on him when they detained him.
2 Q. Okay. And basically you were saying -- I 2 My opinion was that once the police
3 guess you were providing expert testimony about 3 arrived they are the ones in control and the -- the
4 their liability for what the de -- what the police 4 employees did what they should have done, and that
5 officers did? 5 is call the police and let the -- make it a police
6 A. Well, essentially was -- they were suing 6 matter and let them make the decision.
7 because they said that they -- Cheers Cocktails 7 The decision to release him was
8 allowed the deceased to become intoxicated on the 8 made some 10, 15 minutes later, and the employees at
9 premises. And when they tried to escort him out, 9 Cheers had no control over that.
10 they -- they had to use force against him. They had 10 Q. All right. So basically it was -- it was
11 to wrestle him, and -- and they handcuffed him, the 11 the -- it was out of their hands once the -- the --
12 security guards did. So that's what they sued for. 12 once the guy was taken into custody and carried off
13 Q. And what was the dangerous condition on the 13 by the police officers, correct?
14 property? 14 A. Right. Once the police arrive, they're in
15 A. Well, the -- the Dram Shop Act; essentially 15 charge. There's -- There's nothing the employees
16 serving this young man intoxicated -- intoxicating 16 could do to override their decision. Certainly they
17 beverages after he was intoxicated and whether or 17 didn't have that opportunity once they left the
18 not they knew he was intoxicated when they served 18 premises.
19 him those drinks, and the security guards' assault 19 Q. Makes sense to me. So -- So again, like,
20 on him when they were trying to escort him off the 20 you weren't testifying that the premises in question
21 property. 21 was dangerous or not dangerous or -- You were
22 Q. So the plaintiffs in that case were 22 testifying that it was beyond their control once the
23 asserting that the security guards and the liquor 23 police officers took the individual from the
24 was a de -- dangerous defective condition on the 24 premises because, well, they have no control over
25 property? 25 what the police officers did, correct?
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1 A. Well, that -- Yeah. And the latter part of 1 devices put in place to prevent crime?
2 my opinion -- In -- In the beginning, it was that -- 2 A. No, sir.
3 that the employees did not know if he was 3 Q. What about -- Have you ever testified in --
4 intoxicated, that he received drinks from other 4 in any case regarding operations and procedures
5 sources other than going up himself and -- and 5 regarding the safety of employees on a convenience
6 ordering drinks, and that their escorting him 6 store property?
7 outside to wait for the police and he resisted, 7 A. No, sir.
8 that, in -- in my opinion, was not an assault, it 8 Q. So this is the first case?
9 was a reasonable use of force for the security 9 A. Yes.
10 guards to -- to use force to -- to detain him, and 10 Q. What photographs have you reviewed in
11 that the use of handcuffs that they had was 11 preparation for giving your testimony in this case?
12 reasonable. 12 A. I don't recall the -- the number, but just
13 Q. Okay. So it had to do with Dram Shop 13 some of the photographs that were taken after the
14 liability and -- or -- or at least liability for 14 fact of the premises and the surrounding area, that
15 serving alcohol -- 15 Google map that was in that box there.
16 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Did you bring those photographs with you
17 Q. -- and -- and the police officers' actions 17 today?
18 basically being the causing fact for the injuries, 18 A. No. I don't -- I didn't have one of the
19 correct? 19 copies of the photographs, and the others are on
20 A. Yes. But the security guards that Cheers 20 this disc here, I believe. They're just some
21 had hired were not Laredo peace officers. They were 21 photographs that Mr. Auj -- Aujla took when we went
22 security guards. The security guards use a certain 22 to visit the site.
23 amount of force and handcuffs, and then they turn 23 Q. And when were those photographs taken?
24 the case over to the Laredo Police Department. 24 A. It would have been on January the thir --
25 Q. Okay. So there was nothing that -- that 25 13th of 2011.
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1 they had done that would have prevented -- Or 1 Q. Have you ever reviewed any photographs that
2 there's nothing that they could have done to prevent 2 were taken prior to January 13th, 2011?
3 the actions of the police officers following the 3 A. No, sir, I don't believe so.
4 removal of this guy from the premises? 4 Q. I mean -- Let me rephrase that. Have you
5 A. Correct. 5 ever reviewed any photographs of the premises in
6 Q. Okay. And that was all you testified in 6 question in this case that were taken prior to
7 that case, correct? 7 January 13th, 2011?
8 A. Yes. 8 A. No, I don't believe so.
9 Q. Have you ever been called to testify in a 9 Q. So it would be fair to say that you've
10 case regarding inadequate security or the adequacy 10 never seen any photographs of the site as it
11 of security? 11 appeared on the night of the incident; is that
12 A. Have I ever been called to testify? 12 correct?
13 Q. Have you ever testified in a case? 13 A. No, sir, I did not.
14 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Have you ever seen any photographs of the
15 Q. Okay. So is this your first case that 15 site prior to the re-branding from Citgo to Texaco?
16 you've testified in regarding the adequacy of 16 A. If that was before the 13th --
17 security? 17 Q. That was --
18 A. Well, other than Kovacic, yes. 18 A. -- yeah. Yeah.
19 Q. Okay. And -- And Kovacic, that pertained 19 Q. So you haven't?
20 mainly to Dram Shop again? 20 A. No.
21 A. Right. The shortcomings of the security 21 Q. Okay. Do you have a copy of the -- Can you
22 services that were provided, yes. 22 pull out the copy of the Google im -- images that
23 Q. Okay. Have you ever provided any expert 23 you reviewed?
24 testimony regarding the adequacies -- ad -- 24 A. Sure.
25 adequacies or inadequacies of the, like, physical 25 MR. ADKINS: What exhibit number
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1 are we on? 1 counsel for the defendant has explained that those
2 THE COURT REPORTER: 73. 2 were reviewed at his office -- or at the San Antonio
3 MR. ROGERS: 73. 3 office on the computer; is that correct?
4 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have this 4 A. I believe that's correct, yes, sir. I saw
5 marked as Exhibit No. 4 -- I mean -- Sorry -- 7 -- 5 the pictures.
6 74. 6 Q. And the pictures that you reviewed were
7 MR. ROGERS: No. We're at 73, 7 Bates labeled 1293 through 1325; is that correct?
8 aren't we? 8 A. I believe that's correct.
9 MR. ADKINS: Oh, we're at 73. 9 Q. And those pictures were of the site?
10 Which one is it? 10 A. Of the premises, yes, sir.
11 THE COURT REPORTER: 73. 11 Q. And what was the date of your expert
12 MR. ROGERS: 73. 12 opinion in this case?
13 MR. ADKINS: 73. Okay. 73. 13 A. February the 3rd, 2011.
14 (Exhibit 73 marked.) 14 MR. ROGERS: And I think there was
15 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And do you have a copy of 15 also some reference to Exhibit No. 60.
16 the pictures that were provided by Mr. Rogers' 16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) When did you review what
17 office? 17 counsel has in his hand that's marked as Exhibit 60?
18 A. No, I do not. 18 A. Yesterday.
19 Q. Okay. 19 Q. Yesterday?
20 MR. ROGERS: They're right there. 20 A. Yes.
21 The ones you're talking about are on the CD from 21 Q. And so those didn't make up the subject
22 Aujla? 22 matter of your opinions, correct?
23 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, no, no. The 23 A. No, sir.
24 ones that we -- you showed me yesterday that were 24 MR. ADKINS: Okay. And just for --
25 from 2/22/11 -- 25 to make clear on the record, that was Deposition
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1 MR. ROGERS: Those are -- 1 Exhibit No. 60 of the Warren deposition.
2 THE WITNESS: -- that I have not 2 MR. ROGERS: No. Yeah. That's
3 seen. 3 right.
4 MR. ADKINS: Can we take a quick 4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Other than the videotape of
5 break? Thank you. 5 the murder at the store, have you reviewed any other
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 6 pictures or photographs or videotape of the night of
7 11:21, and we're off the record. 7 the incident?
8 (Off the record.) 8 A. No, sir.
9 (On written record only at 9 Q. And so no other photographs, videotape
10 11:36 a.m.) 10 or -- or any other depictions of the property on the
11 MR. ROGERS: In connection with 11 night of the murder other than the videotape of the
12 your questions about the pictures that he looked at, 12 murder from the convenience store video cameras make
13 the -- the pictures, when -- when they went to the 13 up the ex -- make up your expert opinions in this
14 scene in Galveston, were taken, and -- and they have 14 correct -- case; correct?
15 been produced under Bates 1293 to 1325. And I think 15 A. That's correct.
16 what happened is, he came up here to our office and 16 Q. When were you first contacted by opposing
17 saw the pictures on the computer. That's why he 17 counsel?
18 doesn't have a hard copy in his file. 18 A. Would have been in -- I believe it was the
19 MR. ADKINS: That's fine. We'll 19 first couple of days of January of this year.
20 just make a note of it. 20 Q. So would you say the first week of January?
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. The 21 A. I believe so.
22 time is 11:37. We are back on the record. 22 Q. And prior to that, you have never heard of
23 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Mr. Ortiz, in reference to 23 this case?
24 the pictures that we were -- you were discussing 24 A. No, sir.
25 earlier that were taken on January 13th, 2011, 25 Q. Do you watch the news?
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1 A. Yeah. Periodically, yes. 1 everything that I pulled.
2 Q. But you never saw anything on the news for 2 A. There we go. It was Exhibit -- Warren
3 this case? 3 Exhibit No. 64, 66 and 67. I believe there's a 65.
4 A. No. I -- I doubt that it would run in 4 MR. ROGERS: There is a 65.
5 San Antonio for a murder that happened in Galveston. 5 THE WITNESS: I wonder if it is --
6 No. 6 Is that the list of offenses?
7 Q. Earlier we went through the -- the time 7 MR. ROGERS: This is what it looks
8 that you've spent on the case, and you said you've 8 like, Albert.
9 spent approximately, what, 56 hours? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what I'm
10 A. About 60 hours so far. 10 referring to. I -- I saw those. Yeah.
11 Q. 60 hours? 11 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have that?
12 A. Yeah. Or 62 hours, I believe. 12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. And those 62 hours spent on this 13 MR. ROGERS: You had it last --
14 case were from the first week of January to what -- 14 yesterday.
15 Today is what? We're the second week of January -- 15 THE WITNESS: Unless it's attached
16 of February? 16 to -- No. Let me make sure it didn't get hung on
17 A. Yes, sir. 17 this. No. That's -- That's the one. I -- If it's
18 Q. Okay. So in one month's time, you've spent 18 not in there, it's got to be in here.
19 approximately 60 to 62 hours, correct? 19 MR. ROGERS: Well, there it is. Is
20 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 20 it in your notebook in your --
21 Q. Reviewing this case, correct? 21 THE WITNESS: No. There's nothing
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 in this notebook except blank pages and -- but --
23 Q. Sorry. All right. Earlier you said that 23 No. I don't have it in here. Here we go.
24 you've never reviewed the depositions of several 24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. So you've handed me
25 individuals that have been deposed in this case, all 25 what's been marked as Deposition Exhibits 64, 65 and
Page 71 Page 73
1 from Susser Petroleum Company or representatives of 1 66 and 67, so 64 through 67 of Harold Warren's
2 Stripes, LLC. So do you believe that you should 2 deposition?
3 have probably reviewed those before you provided 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 your expert opinion in this case? 4 Q. Is that correct?
5 A. That would be sheer speculation. I don't 5 A. Uh-huh.
6 know what's in there. In order to form that 6 Q. And these are the only deposition exhibits
7 opinion, I'd have to see what's in that. 7 that you have reviewed in this case?
8 Q. Do you think that you would be able to more 8 A. I believe so, yes. And I think you've
9 fully develop your opinion if you had reviewed all 9 pointed out they were attached to his written
10 the depositions in this case? 10 opinion, so that might have been when it was.
11 A. I don't know. Again, that's speculation. 11 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have these
12 I don't know what's in there. 12 marked.
13 Q. Have you -- Have you reviewed any -- any of 13 MR. ROGERS: They're already
14 the deposition exhibits? 14 mark -- Oh, okay. They're already marked.
15 A. Just the ones, I believe, that were 15 MR. ADKINS: Right. I wanted to
16 attached to the plaintiffs' expert, Warren -- 16 have them because these are all the -- the
17 Warren. 17 deposition exhibits that he reviewed in this case.
18 Q. Okay. Are -- Are you talking about 18 I want to have that marked as a separate exhibit.
19 deposition exhibits that were attached to Warren's 19 MR. ROGERS: Okay. Well, there's
20 report? 20 also a whole bunch of things that are on these
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 exhibits --
22 Q. And could you point those deposition 22 MR. ADKINS: Right.
23 exhibits out for me? 23 MR. ROGERS: -- that he's reviewed.
24 A. That would depend on wherever you put them. 24 MR. ADKINS: Right. Right. I
25 Q. They're all right there in that stack, 25 understand. That would be what number? 6 -- 70 --
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1 THE COURT REPORTER: 74. 1 correspond to what's been marked as those exhibit --
2 MR. ADKINS: 74. I'll have that 2 or Exhibit 74, can you not here today provide me
3 marked as 74. 3 with which ones are missing?
4 (Exhibit 74 marked.) 4 A. No, not off -- not in -- by memory. No.
5 MR. ROGERS: I want to get a copy 5 MR. ROGERS: Pierce, just so you're
6 of those, because those are mine. Actually, 6 not misled, he's got a box full of stuff, which is
7 they're -- they're my copies. Y'all are the 7 Volume 1, 2 and 3, that have -- has been produced
8 custodian of the record of -- of Warren's 8 by --
9 deposition. They would all be with that. 9 MR. ADKINS: I understand that,
10 MR. ADKINS: Those are from his 10 Rick. He said he -- he was missing some. I -- I
11 file, correct? 11 just wanted to know which ones he was missing.
12 MR. ROGERS: No. Those are -- 12 MR. ROGERS: All right.
13 Well, those are from his file, right. That's right. 13 THE WITNESS: I -- Right off the
14 MR. ADKINS: Okay. 14 top of my head, I -- I -- I couldn't -- I couldn't
15 MR. ROGERS: Because I have my 15 tell you which ones are ones that are missing.
16 copies right here. 16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So can you tell which ones
17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. These are from your 17 are missing and which ones you've reviewed?
18 file? 18 A. The ones that have markings on them I -- I
19 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. 19 remembered from my previous review of those
20 Q. And these are the deposition exhibits that 20 documents.
21 you've reviewed in this case? 21 Q. Okay. Did you re -- Did you make those
22 A. Yes. 22 markings based on your previous review? Or did you
23 Q. And I'm referring to what's been marked as 23 make those markings while you were reviewing the
24 Exhibit 74. 24 records?
25 MR. ROGERS: Just so the record's 25 A. Both.
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1 clear, then Exhibit 74 is -- is a combination of 1 Q. And you made the markings on what's been
2 Exhibit 64, 65, 66 and 67 that have already been 2 marked as Exhibit 64 and -- while you were reviewing
3 used in -- 3 the police reports?
4 MR. ADKINS: Of Warren's 4 A. I just recently received these.
5 deposition, correct. 5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. ROGERS: Right. I don't want 6 A. And so I went through the ones that I
7 you misled. He has read -- There's also a lot of 7 recall from my previous review of the police
8 information on those exhibits that he's reviewed. 8 documents and reports and double-checked them. The
9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Have you reviewed all of 9 ones that I -- I didn't remember I checked against
10 the corresponding records or police records or 10 my records of the ones -- the reports that I have
11 reports that are listed on what's been marked as 11 reviewed, and I found that some of them were not in
12 Exhibit 74 when I referred to each one of these 12 there.
13 lists, 64 -- Exhibit 64, 65, 66 and 67 of 13 Q. Okay. And --
14 Harold Warren's deposition? 14 A. But as we sit here today, I can't draw that
15 A. I don't believe all of them. There were 15 distinction between which ones were and were not
16 some that were missing, I believe. 16 there.
17 Q. Can you point out the ones that were 17 Q. Okay. And so you're unable to -- to show
18 missing? In fact, here, why don't you highlight 18 me right now which ones you reviewed and which ones
19 them. 19 you haven't reviewed?
20 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you. I 20 A. Well, I've reviewed everything on these
21 just -- When I went through the police records that 21 documents. Some of the cases sounded familiar. I
22 correspond to these calls, some of them didn't have 22 looked into my documents and ran a check against
23 a report. Some of them are just -- I didn't feel 23 them. Those are the ones that are marked, but some
24 were -- like a theft of a stolen cell phone. 24 of them are not. And some of them I didn't mark
25 Q. As for the records that you reviewed that 25 simply because I didn't think they were relevant to
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1 a capital murder case. 1 threatened with knife; no disposition; no
2 Q. So the ones that are not marked you did not 2 disposition.
3 feel were relevant to a capital murder case, 3 Shoplifter; drove off without
4 correct? 4 paying for gas; no dis -- no disposition; no
5 A. Or I couldn't find them. 5 disposition; theft; suspicious person; customer and
6 Q. Can you read each one of the ones -- I 6 clerk/manager fight; theft; subject stole alcohol
7 guess, the descriptions of the -- of the ones that 7 from premises; on location harassing, tried to steal
8 you have not marked for the record? 8 earlier; public disturbance, and the murder of
9 A. It would be Tab No. 6 -- or how -- Do you 9 Abdul Meje at store.
10 want me to just go across the whole line? Or -- 10 Q. Thank you.
11 Q. Well, I'm looking right here. You have 11 A. Uh-huh.
12 markings or you don't have markings. Can you just 12 Q. And we'll get back to those in a little.
13 read me the descriptions of the ones that you have 13 What assistance from others have you had in coming
14 not marked? 14 to your expert opinions? Have you -- Did you rely
15 MR. ROGERS: Well, what document 15 on -- on -- Is it Moore?
16 are you reading from? 16 A. Dr. Moore.
17 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to 17 Q. Yes.
18 read across the entire line? 18 A. No.
19 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) No. I want -- I want you 19 Q. Have you reviewed any consulting expert's
20 to just review the description. 20 materials in this case?
21 A. There is nothing there titled 21 A. Other than the ones that are listed and the
22 "description." I guess that's where I'm -- That's 22 uncertified copy of the deposition.
23 "disposition." 23 Q. Well, are you talking about plaintiffs'
24 Q. Oh, "disposition." I'm sorry. Yeah. Read 24 testifying expert, Warren?
25 from there the ones that you have not marked. 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 A. Okay. Stolen cell phone; theft; two males 1 Q. Okay. But you haven't reviewed any
2 fighting in a parking lot store; fighting in store; 2 consulting expert's opinion from the defendant,
3 female assaulted at the store -- or at store. 3 correct? Or have you?
4 There's no disposition on the other. 4 A. Well, Dr. Moore's, yes.
5 Male subject trying to steal beer; 5 Q. Okay. But he's a testifying expert?
6 auto burglary; assault on male at 4210 Avenue U #4, 6 A. Yes.
7 called from store; harassing customers/drinking beer 7 Q. Okay. But you -- Okay. So you've read
8 on store premises; fight; disturbance between clerk 8 Dr. Moore's -- Which was -- My next question was:
9 and customer over money; male assaulted at Seawall 9 You've read Dr. Moore's opinion. Was that prior to
10 Citgo; soliciting video cameras; dealing drugs; 10 your opinion in this case?
11 subject was in the Citgo stealing; clerk called 11 A. Yes.
12 about robbery, translator said none. 12 Q. Okay. And so obviously -- Is it Dr. Moore?
13 Person's keys were stolen out of 13 A. Yes.
14 car; male at Citgo pulled gun on another male bike 14 Q. Dr. Moore could not have relied on your
15 rally -- another male/bike rally; in store 15 opinion in this case because you relied on his,
16 yelling/ongoing problem; female arguing in Citgo gas 16 correct?
17 station; subject refused to leave; no disposition; 17 A. Let me see if I've got you correct. I
18 holdup; transients drinking behind the Cit -- Citgo; 18 reviewed Dr. Moore's written opinion, and then I
19 men fighting over truck; no disposition. 19 wrote my written opinion, yes.
20 Stealing items from the stand; 20 Q. Okay.
21 attempted suicide across from the store -- across 21 A. That is -- That's correct.
22 the street from the store; subject was trespassing; 22 Q. What is your hourly rate?
23 male was adding graffiti; pizza robber -- I'm sorry. 23 A. $200 an hour.
24 Stole -- Subject stole a pack of beer and drove off; 24 Q. Okay. And so it would be whatever -- So
25 Citgo/male subject refusing to pay; person 25 far -- The defendants have spent so far would be
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1 what? 60 to 62 hours times $200 an hour? 1 A. Shawn Fitzpatrick of Fitzpatrick and
2 A. That's correct. 2 Kosanovich.
3 Q. Okay. And have you ever reviewed any 3 Q. Do you know his first name?
4 aerial photographs in this case? 4 A. Mark. Mark Kosanovich,
5 A. Those Google photographs, and I believe I 5 K-O-S-A-N-O-V-I-C-H. And Mark Rall's law firm is
6 was shown a couple more that were taken later. 6 Gonzales, Hoblit, Darling.
7 Q. And when were -- when did you review those? 7 Q. Okay. Keep going.
8 A. Yesterday. 8 A. Philip Marzec, M-A-R-Z-E-C. I can't think
9 Q. And did you review those in preparation for 9 of the name of his law firm. A.J. Dimaline.
10 your deposition today? 10 Dimaline is D-I-M-A-L-I-N-E with Brock, Person &
11 A. I can't -- Well, yes, but I don't -- I 11 Guerra. And Steve Katz with Brock, Person & Guerra.
12 can't say that they really added anything. 12 Q. And once again, all of these are defense
13 Q. Okay. And were those the aerial 13 firms, correct?
14 photographs that were taken on February 5th of 2010? 14 A. Yes, sir. Uh-huh.
15 A. I don't know when they were taken. 15 Q. When you were contacted by defense counsel,
16 Q. Earlier you said you testified for one 16 what were you asked to do in this case?
17 plaintiff; is that correct? 17 A. Just to look at the case, the -- within the
18 A. Well, indirectly, yes. That was the 18 confines of Timberwalk and Trammell Crow and give
19 Kovacic case. 19 them my impressions.
20 Q. Okay. So indirectly? 20 Q. And we'll get back to that. What were you
21 A. Yes. 21 told by defense counsel?
22 Q. And that was the case about the Dram Shop? 22 A. Just a brief overview of the incident made
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 the basis of the lawsuit and who he represented and
24 Q. Okay. And in that case, you represented a 24 whether or not I could assist on the case.
25 codefendant; isn't that correct? 25 Q. Okay. And what is your understanding of
Page 83 Page 85
1 A. Yes. 1 what happened?
2 Q. So in actuality, you did not represent a 2 A. These four individuals decided to rob that
3 plaintiff in that case, correct? 3 convenience store. They were kind of living on the
4 A. No. 4 road for a few weeks, and they dropped off one of
5 Q. Okay. So you've never represented a 5 the individuals, Stevens, and he's the one that
6 plaintiff? 6 actually carried out the offense. And during the
7 A. No. 7 robbery, Mr. Meje was killed. The individuals were
8 Q. Okay. What attorneys have retained you in 8 caught shortly thereafter, and each one was found
9 the past two years? What law firms? 9 guilty of their part in the case.
10 A. Charles Frigerio. That's -- Frigerio is 10 Q. Okay. Do you know what the date was?
11 F-R-I-G-E-R-I-O. He's in a firm by himself. 11 A. I'd have to look. January the 30th of
12 Q. Okay. 12 2008, I believe. January 31st. I'm sorry.
13 A. Mark Ralls. 13 Q. And do you recall what time?
14 Q. Can you spell that? 14 A. It was about 3:45 in the morning.
15 A. R-A-L-L-S. 15 Q. When you visited the store on -- Was it
16 Q. All right. 16 January 13th, two thousand --
17 A. I'm trying to think of the law firm he's 17 A. I believe. Yes, it was.
18 with downtown San Antonio. I'll think of it in a 18 Q. -- eleven? What did your visit entail?
19 minute. 19 What did you do while you were there?
20 Q. That's fine. I can look it up. 20 A. We stood outside for a little while and,
21 A. All right. Deborah Klein. 21 you know, just looked at the activity and noticed
22 Q. And can you spell Klein, please? 22 the condition of the premises, looked around the
23 A. Yes. K-L-E-I-N. She's with the city 23 general area from the premises away.
24 attorney's office. Shawn -- I'm sorry. 24 Then we walked inside and really
25 Q. Go ahead. 25 didn't announce ourselves. We just kind of looked
22 (Pages 82 to 85)
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1 around and checked all the rooms and made 1 had just restocked everything. But I was impressed
2 observations about the -- the entire premises -- the 2 by, as -- as full as the shelves were, everything
3 interior of the premises, that is. 3 was pretty much in its place. There was no --
4 And then we announced ourselves to 4 Q. With respect to the back of the store.
5 the two clerks that were there, told them what we 5 A. Oh, I'm sorry.
6 were doing and just stood around and -- and watched 6 Q. No problem.
7 the interactions the customers and the activities 7 A. I just mainly remember the -- the bathroom
8 inside and outside. 8 being -- being clean and -- and orderly.
9 Q. And what time of day did you visit? 9 Q. Did you go into the office area of the
10 A. I want to say it was about 10:00 o'clock in 10 store?
11 the morning, maybe. Yeah. About 9:00 or 9:30. 11 A. No, I did not.
12 Between 9:00 and 10:00, I would say. 12 Q. Did you go into the cooler of the store?
13 Q. So between 9:30 and 10:00 a.m.? 13 A. No. I just observed it from the customer
14 A. I would think so. Between 9:00 and 10:00. 14 side of it.
15 Q. What contact and communication did you have 15 Q. So you went to the bathrooms?
16 with the store clerks? 16 A. Right.
17 A. We just introduced ourselves and told them 17 Q. What else in the back of the store did you
18 what we were doing there, and that was essentially 18 visit?
19 it. We just kind of watched them tend to customers 19 A. Just the aisle -- little hallway that leads
20 and just watched the activities. 20 to the bathroom.
21 Q. Did you interview any of the store clerks? 21 Q. So you visited the -- the bathroom and the
22 A. No, sir, other than to introduce ourselves 22 hallway?
23 and -- and tell them what we were doing there. 23 A. Yes. Just the men's bathroom, not the
24 Q. You do know what I mean by "interview," 24 ladies'.
25 right? 25 Q. So would it be fair to say that you -- your
Page 87 Page 89
1 A. Well, if it's a -- 1 visit was limited to the public areas of the store?
2 Q. You -- Did you ask them any questions? 2 A. Pretty much, yes, sir.
3 Or -- 3 Q. Okay. When you visited the store, did you
4 A. No. Well -- And that's how I responded. 4 look -- were you able to, I guess, adequately view
5 Yeah. 5 the lighting at 9:30 to 10:00 o'clock at night or --
6 Q. Okay. 6 I'm sorry -- in the morning, the perimeter lighting
7 A. I just introduced ourselves and told them 7 around the store?
8 what we were doing there. 8 A. Yes. The -- The -- We did that as we were
9 Q. Okay. So no, you didn't? 9 approach -- I did that as we were approaching the
10 A. (Shaking head.) 10 store.
11 Q. Please say no. 11 Q. And was it daylight when you were
12 A. Okay. 12 approaching?
13 Q. Sorry. Don't shake your head -- 13 A. Yes. It was daylight.
14 A. No, I -- 14 Q. Okay. So did you see the perimeter
15 Q. -- because we can't get it on -- on -- 15 lighting actually on?
16 on -- 16 A. I seem to recall the -- the lighting in the
17 A. Excuse me. We did not -- I did not 17 eaves and inside the store were on. I don't quite
18 interview the clerks. 18 recall at this moment if the lights on the -- at the
19 Q. Okay. Did you enter the back of the store? 19 gas pumps were on.
20 A. Are you talking about the rooms in the 20 Q. Okay. Did you see the in -- Did you -- So
21 back? Yes. The bathrooms and storage areas in the 21 you didn't have a chance to see any of the perimeter
22 back. 22 lighting while it was in use during the dark,
23 Q. And what were your observations? 23 correct?
24 A. It was very clean, very orderly. There was 24 A. No. It was a very dark and overcast day.
25 a lot of stock on the shelves. It looked like they 25 But no, I can't say that it was dark. It was dark
23 (Pages 86 to 89)
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1 for daytime, about as dark as it can get. 1 A. Uh-huh.
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Please try not 2 Q. And each one of those things -- But there's
3 to twirl your cable. Thank you. 3 more?
4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did you -- What's your 4 A. In terms of lighting?
5 experience in retail security? 5 Q. Well, you've listed, I guess, lighting
6 A. Other than my duties as a crime 6 and --
7 prevention -- being certified as a crime prevention 7 MR. ADKINS: I'm sorry. Could you
8 officer and going there as part of my duties and 8 read back what he said? Lighting, car wash, all
9 helping them with security or trying to prevent 9 that.
10 problems, that's about it. 10 (Requested portion was read.)
11 Q. Okay. Did you happen to observe any of the 11 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) In addition to those items
12 glass that made up the storefront? 12 that you listed, is there anything else that goes
13 A. Yeah. I noticed that it's glass, yeah. I 13 into -- that are factors in your evaluation as to
14 mean, but not -- I didn't do any deep inspection of 14 whether a store is -- has adequate security?
15 it. 15 A. Is there other factors?
16 Q. Do you know what type of glass that is? 16 Q. Besides those that you listed.
17 A. No. I don't know what they call it. 17 A. Are we just talking strictly lighting now?
18 Q. When reviewing the adequacy of security of 18 Or beyond lighting and other factors?
19 a retail establishment, what are the steps to come 19 Q. Every -- Everything.
20 to an opinion as to the inadequacy or adequacy of 20 A. Oh, yeah. There's certain --
21 the security in effect at a -- at a particular 21 Q. And what are those other factors that you
22 store? What are your steps that you go through? 22 look at when you're evaluating a retail
23 A. Well, generally, as you approach, can you 23 establishment for security?
24 see the inside of the store, is it well lit around 24 A. Well, you go after the fact, of course, and
25 the parking lot, the areas where customers may go, 25 see what the situation is. In terms of that
Page 91 Page 93
1 the gas pumps, the air pumps, the car wash, can you 1 specific night, it appears the lighting was very
2 see at that time of the -- whenever you're there. 2 well -- very good. There was two clerks on duty.
3 When you go inside the store, is it well lit inside, 3 You could see outside and inside the store, it
4 can you see outside. 4 appears. They had a drop safe.
5 Q. Okay. And so each one of those things are 5 They had engendered a great
6 a factor in your evaluation of the security of the 6 relationship with the -- with the police department.
7 premises? 7 They offered them free coffee. And in the
8 A. Well, to a certain degree, yes. I -- I've 8 depositions --
9 never heard of a robber saying, "I didn't go in that 9 Q. I'm talking about your evaluation when
10 store to rob it because it was too well lit or it 10 you're there --
11 wasn't well lit." That's not going to deter 11 A. Well, they have a --
12 anybody, really, that's determined to -- to rob the 12 Q. -- when you actually walk up on the
13 place. 13 premises in your physical evaluation.
14 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 14 A. Well, those are some -- the factors.
15 nonresponsive. 15 Q. Are -- Can you -- Can -- I'm -- I'm sorry.
16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) With respect to the factors 16 But can -- can you tell if -- if something is well
17 that you just listed, are -- do those all make up 17 lit in your physi -- physical evaluation of the
18 your opinion as to whether security is adequate or 18 property if you go there during the day?
19 inadequate in a store? 19 A. Well, certainly, yes. I mean, you can see
20 A. Well, I'm not sure I understand your 20 it at that time. It's my understanding that it was
21 question. They are -- 21 well lit from interviewing Detective Paige.
22 Q. Are those the only factors that you -- 22 Q. Is there anything in your physical
23 A. Oh, no. And that -- that's what I was 23 evaluation of the property that would lead you to
24 getting at. That's one of the factors you consider. 24 believe that it was well lit on the night of
25 Q. Well, you listed several different things. 25 January 31st, 2008?
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1 A. No. I -- I wasn't there during those -- at 1 A. This area here seems to be whitewashed.
2 3:45 in the morning. 2 Q. And so that's, you believe, as a result of
3 Q. Is there anything that you've reviewed or 3 the camera in this case?
4 looked at that would form the basis of your opinion 4 A. I believe so.
5 that it was well lit on the night of January 31st, 5 Q. That's from the flash, the physical flash
6 2008? 6 of the camera?
7 A. What was the first part of your question? 7 A. Well, I don't know what's causing it. Here
8 I'm sorry. 8 it appears again. There's some -- some whiteout
9 Q. It -- Is there anything that you've 9 that you --
10 reviewed or looked at physically, whether it be a 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me. Can
11 picture or videotape or anything else, that would 11 you hold it up and point it out? Let me focus in on
12 lead you to believe that it was well lit -- the 12 it.
13 store was well lit on January 31st, 2008? 13 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) That's from the physical
14 A. Well, certainly there was some pictures 14 flash of the camera in this case?
15 that were taken at night, not on the night in 15 A. I -- Like I said, I don't know what's
16 question, that indicate it was well lit. As a 16 causing it, but it looks like a whiteout.
17 matter of fact, it seemed like some of the pictures 17 Q. And with -- within a reasonable degree of
18 I saw, it was so well lit that the -- the flash in 18 certainty, can you tell me that that's from the
19 the camera was coming back at the camera to kind of 19 flash of the camera in this case?
20 blot it out. 20 A. No. I answered that. I don't know what's
21 Q. And do you have a picture -- do you have 21 causing it, but it's definitely whited out. I mean,
22 the copies of those pictures that you reviewed at 22 I can tell you I have not operated a camera in
23 night? 23 years.
24 A. We talked about them earlier. I think 24 Q. So as you stand here today, you cannot tell
25 those are -- There we go. 25 me whether or not that was caused by a camera in
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1 Q. Just for the record, Mr. Rogers has handed 1 this case?
2 you what's been marked as Warren's Exhibit -- 2 A. No.
3 Deposition Exhibit No. 59. Is that what you 3 Q. And once again, we were referring to those
4 reviewed? 4 pictures that were taken -- I'm sorry -- those
5 A. Yes. 5 pictures that were marked as Warren Deposition
6 Q. And did you review those prior to or 6 Exhibit No. 59?
7 following your opinion in this case? 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 A. I reviewed these following. 8 Q. And in those photographs, could you see the
9 Q. And so did any of those pictures make up 9 inside of the store in the case -- or in -- I mean,
10 the basis of your opinion as stated -- 10 with respect to -- Can you see where the clerk would
11 A. No. 11 be in those pictures?
12 Q. -- prior to your review of this case? 12 A. No. It's whited out --
13 A. No. 13 Q. Okay.
14 Q. Can we go back to those real quick? 14 A. -- on that picture, and actually that
15 A. Sure. 15 picture and that picture. All four of those
16 Q. I've got other copies of them as well. 16 pictures seems like the area around where the clerk
17 A. Sure. 17 sits has been whited out -- whitewashed.
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You've got a 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This brings us
19 minute and a half. 19 to the conclusion of Tape -- or DVD 1 of the Ortiz
20 MR. ADKINS: Okay. 20 deposition. The time is 12:21 p.m. We're off the
21 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Can you point to me in 21 record.
22 those pictures where you see the flash of the camera 22 (Off the record.)
23 in the photographs? 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
24 A. This area here. 24 beginning of Tape 2 of the Ortiz deposition --
25 Q. Please point that out to the jury. 25 Excuse me -- DVD 2 of the Ortiz deposition. The
25 (Pages 94 to 97)
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1 time is 1:18, and we are on the record. 1 commanders in terms of -- of pre -- preventing
2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What are your 2 robberies and -- and convenience store -- issues at
3 qualifications in the field of preventing robbery or 3 convenience stores, beer runs, the -- the whole
4 murder in retail environments? 4 gambit [sic], but robbery was certainly one of
5 A. Just what I amassed in my career with the 5 those.
6 police department, some, I guess, at -- in a general 6 Q. And did you ever -- I think we -- we talked
7 degree -- to a general degree in my education, but 7 about this earlier, but did you ever -- Where did
8 primarily working firsthand, responding to calls and 8 you get all these ideas from? I mean, were they
9 advising the clerks. 9 from your fellow police officers or your --
10 You're taught crime prevention 10 A. Right. Essentially what the MAP meeting
11 techniques in the police academy. I was -- also 11 does is brings together all of the commanders and
12 received certifications as a crime prevention 12 their experiences and -- and their training into one
13 technician. And so part of the policies of the 13 room, and we share those ideas with everyone.
14 police department is, when a crime occurs where 14 Q. And what were some of those ideas?
15 there are measures that the victim can take to 15 A. Well, it just depended on what kind of
16 prevent it from occurring again, you advise them 16 robberies we were trying to prevent. At one point,
17 on -- on hardening the target, steps to -- to take 17 we, it seems like --
18 to perhaps discourage the event from occurring 18 Q. For retail establishments.
19 again. 19 A. Yes. The one I remember most prominently
20 Q. Could you point out on your resume where 20 was one here on Broadway Street right around
21 you received the certification that you spoke of a 21 Hildebrand. We'd had a series of robberies in that
22 moment ago? 22 area, and somebody recommended that we deploy
23 A. I don't -- I don't believe that's there, 23 stakeouts with officers in these convenience
24 that certification. As a matter of fact, there's 24 stores -- Some of -- Not all of them were
25 hardly any certif -- certificates that I may have 25 convenience stores -- the businesses around that
Page 99 Page 101
1 received there. 1 area and a -- a patrol or a plainclothes patrol
2 Q. And who was that certification from? 2 around the entire area to respond quickly. And the
3 A. I don't -- I don't recall. That would have 3 officers apprehended the suspect that was actually
4 been earlier in my career. 4 committing those robberies. But essentially --
5 Q. When did you receive that certification? 5 Q. I mean, outside the police force, I mean,
6 A. Probably would have been in 1985, I believe 6 did you -- have you ever received any, like,
7 '85 or '86. I had just gotten promoted to 7 training or qualifications to, I guess, evaluate
8 lieutenant and was sent to that prior to forming the 8 and -- and -- you know, the -- the management or
9 gang and drug -- drug patrol unit called SOU. 9 control of a -- of a particular convenience store
10 Q. And you don't recall the -- the name of the 10 and -- and things that can be put in place to
11 issuing authority that issued the certificate? 11 possibly prevent the occurrence of certain violent
12 A. No, sir. I -- I sure do not. 12 acts or robbery or --
13 Q. Okay. Aside from -- from that, what all -- 13 A. It -- That -- That's kind of a -- several
14 what other qualifications do you have? 14 aspects to your question. I received general crime
15 A. Again, crime prevention in the police 15 prevention techniques, which goes into preventing
16 academy that you're -- that you're taught. In my 16 robberies, drug dealing, assaults at businesses,
17 later years as an administrator, we always -- we had 17 including convenience stores. Into the management,
18 what's called the Management Accountability Program, 18 no, sir.
19 a MAP meeting, where we go through all the crimes, 19 Q. Okay. With respect to things that you --
20 crime patterns. We get the commanders of everybody 20 or requirements or things that have been put in
21 in the police department every other Friday and went 21 place or that should be put in place by management,
22 over crime patterns and what we could do to prevent 22 whether it has to do with procedures or the physical
23 them and some of the strategies. 23 aspects of the spore -- store, do you have any
24 So we were going to use some of the 24 opinions as to -- as to that?
25 strategies that were proffered by the -- the 25 I mean, do you have any opinions as
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1 to the physical aspects and procedural aspects of 1 occurring.
2 preventing robberies from a management standpoint or 2 A. In -- In general -- Generally speaking,
3 ownership standpoint with respect to this particular 3 some of the things that we're talking about here,
4 convenience store? 4 good lighting, keeping the windows uncluttered so
5 A. What was the first part of the question? 5 you can see outside and inside and make sure there's
6 I'm sorry. I kind of lost you. 6 sufficient lighting on the outside and inside.
7 Q. Okay. I -- Basically I'm trying to figure 7 It -- And it works both as a crime
8 out what your qualifications are on opining as to 8 prevention tool and to enhance customers to come in
9 what a store should and should not do with respect 9 and feel safe, to try to prevent, you know, those
10 to security. 10 that you can by having security cameras, mirrors
11 A. Okay. And so generally, all of the -- the 11 that let you see down the aisles to prevent
12 measures that we advocate for owners or manage -- 12 shoplifting and -- and just -- just the sense that
13 whoever's running the convenience store or whatever 13 when somebody walks in -- The greatest deterrent to
14 the business is, are -- are mainly common-sense 14 any criminal act is, of course, apprehension.
15 approaches to -- to crime prevention. 15 And so if -- if you can create
16 And -- And we tell them that 16 that -- a sense that if you commit a crime that
17 nothing we can do is -- is going to prevent every 17 there's a good chance you may be apprehended or
18 crime. It's just kind of hedging your bet, so to 18 identified that you may opt not to do the crime. In
19 speak. 19 my experience, the crime may not occur at that
20 Q. When you say, "nothing we can do," are you 20 place, but it is probably going to go down the road
21 talking about as a police officer or as a -- as a 21 and occur someplace else.
22 store owner? 22 Q. Why is it important to be able to see
23 A. When someone is determined to commit a 23 inside of a store?
24 crime, whether it's a robbery, shooting a 24 A. To see inside?
25 president -- 25 Q. Or -- Yes. A retail establishment.
Page 103 Page 105
1 Q. Well, no. Let's talk about things that -- 1 A. Well, just so patrol -- an officer
2 You said, "stuff that we can do." I was asking who 2 patrolling the street will come by and perhaps take
3 is "we." 3 a look, see inside, see everything is -- is normal.
4 A. Oh, I'm -- I'm talking the collaboration 4 He's less likely to stop and walk into your place
5 between a law enforcement and the convenience store 5 of -- into an establishment to check on your welfare
6 owner or the bank owner, those kind -- the business 6 if you don't have -- He's more likely to go by,
7 owner. And -- And it's not even restricted to that. 7 drive you -- through your parking lot and check to
8 Whenever there's burglaries at the house or thefts, 8 make sure you're okay.
9 you know, we -- we advise people on how to prevent 9 But if it's all walled up and he
10 it from happ -- occurring again. We tell them why 10 can't see inside, he's less likely to stop and go
11 we think it occurred and what to do to prevent it. 11 inside and find out you're sitting there reading a
12 Q. And what are some of the reasons that you 12 magazine and you've wasted his time, just -- just
13 believe would cause these violent crimes or 13 kind of those kind of things. They're -- They're
14 robberies to occur? 14 subtle, but those are the kind of things that --
15 A. Well, they're pretty much -- You have to 15 that we would talk about.
16 look at the individual case. My experience has 16 Q. Okay. So you said it was like -- less
17 been, when someone is -- is desperate or in need of 17 likely that they would stop by the store if you
18 money for whatever reason -- A lot of times maybe 18 could see inside, right?
19 it's to feed a drug habit. 19 A. The police officer?
20 MR. ADKINS: Objection to 20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 nonresponsive. 21 A. No. No. I -- I would say that he would --
22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I'm -- I'm sorry. I was -- 22 That he's less likely to stop at the store? It's
23 I was just asking, you know, what are the things 23 just --
24 that you told them to do to prevent these types of 24 Q. To -- To see inside --
25 things from occurring -- violent crimes from 25 A. And to see that you're safe and there's
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1 nothing suspicious going on, that's correct. 1 Q. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Would you say that somebody would probably 2 A. And so even if they escaped, you have three
3 more frequent a store if they couldn't see? 3 or four or five, ten witnesses at a Wal-Mart between
4 A. More frequent a store? 4 the employees and the customers that say, "This is
5 Q. Or would they more frequently go inside the 5 the gentleman that did it." Whereas, if it's just
6 store and check and see what's going on, as an -- as 6 one or two people, they may or may not see the
7 an officer, you know? 7 robbery occurring. It's just -- just the
8 A. Yeah. It de -- It depends on the officer, 8 circumstances are different.
9 of course, but I would suspect that it would be less 9 Q. Okay. So as a police officer and in your
10 likely for them to stop their car and walk in 10 history of being an office -- officer, if -- if you
11 because you've decided to wall up your door and 11 could see inside a store -- I just want to make
12 there's no way to see from the outside in. 12 sure -- I'm recapping to make sure I got it right --
13 For example, if I may, a 13 if you could see inside a store just by driving
14 convenience store where you can see in, an officer 14 through, you are less likely to go inside and check
15 will drive through the parking lot or drive through 15 and make sure everything was all right than a store
16 the street, slow down, make sure there's no activity 16 that you couldn't see inside and, you know, you
17 going on. He's not likely to walk into Wal-Mart to 17 might want to go in and check it out?
18 see if the employees are okay. And -- And that -- 18 A. Yeah. I would say so. That's been my
19 that's kind of what I'm trying to say. 19 experience.
20 Q. But there's a difference between Wal-Mart 20 Q. Okay. Do you have a copy of your expert
21 and a convenience store, correct? 21 report with you?
22 A. In terms of crime and -- 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Security and -- 23 Q. Okay. I'd like to go through that, if you
24 A. -- shoplifting and all -- not -- not 24 don't mind.
25 necessarily. 25 A. Sure.
Page 107 Page 109
1 Q. Well, what about robberies? 1 Q. Let's see. All right. On the last
2 A. Robberies, I -- I would -- 2 sentence -- or, I guess, second-to-last sentence,
3 Q. Is a convenience store more or less likely 3 third line from the bottom of the first paragraph,
4 to get robbed than Wal-Mart? 4 "I also attended" --
5 A. I would have to say that perhaps a 5 A. Yes.
6 convenience store. 6 Q. -- "a substantial number of additional
7 Q. Would be -- 7 training classes and conferences related to criminal
8 A. Less likely -- I mean, more likely than -- 8 justice and police administration outside the
9 than, say, a Wal-Mart. A Wal-Mart would be less 9 department."
10 likely. 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And why would that be? 11 Q. Were those the ones that we went over
12 A. Because the robber can't see inside and he 12 earlier?
13 doesn't know how many people there are. At a 13 A. Pretty much. There -- There was a whole
14 Wal-Mart, there's likely to be more people, more 14 bun -- Yeah. Pretty much they were covered in -- in
15 employees, and so they -- their -- they may have 15 your questioning earlier. Yeah.
16 security in the store that's not really available in 16 Q. Okay. As of right now, can you remember
17 plain clothes. And -- And so inside a Wal-Mart, 17 any additional training classes and conferences
18 probably the biggest deterrence is that there's a 18 related to criminal justice that we didn't go
19 lot of customers -- 19 through earlier?
20 Q. It's -- 20 A. You know, actually, I remember going to
21 A. -- at one time. 21 a -- a gang seminar here in -- there in Galveston
22 Q. Right. Less likely they could escape if 22 back in '85 or '86. I'm sure there's numerous
23 they robbed, right? 23 others. I -- They just don't come to mind.
24 A. Well, again, I think the greatest deterrent 24 Q. And what was the subject matter of the gang
25 is being identified. 25 seminar in Galveston?
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1 A. Okay. Just that it -- it -- Back in '85 1 A. Yes.
2 and '86, it was getting to be a really pronounced 2 MR. ADKINS: What exhibit number
3 problem for law enforcement. And I don't remember 3 are we on?
4 who put it on, but it was at the -- I believe it's 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 75.
5 called the El Cortez Hotel. 5 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have these
6 Q. Okay. And that was in '85? 6 police records marked as Exhibit 75.
7 A. Yes, sir. And one of the other things that 7 THE WITNESS: I believe those are
8 you've brought to mind is, TCLEOSE, the regulating 8 it.
9 agency for peace officers in Texas, requires updates 9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Earlier I asked you if you
10 on the law and the latest techniques, and they 10 brought your complete file, and you said you did.
11 require specific law enforcement subjects to be 11 Is this your complete file on the police records?
12 taught every two years. 12 A. Yes. Uh-huh. Everything that I have is in
13 The San Antonio Police Department 13 that box.
14 provides that for everybody every year. And it's 14 Q. Okay. So those are all the police records
15 40 hours of inservice and updates every year. 15 in that box, correct?
16 Q. Okay. Okay. And the second paragraph 16 A. As far as I know, yes.
17 begins a list of items that you reviewed in coming 17 (Exhibit 75 marked.)
18 to your opinions in your ex -- expert report. 18 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. And that's now been
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 marked as Exhibit 75?
20 Q. The first thing, Galveston Police 20 A. Correct.
21 Department deposition regarding police records for 21 Q. Second, you have the deposition of
22 Grid 68 for calendar years 2005 through 2008 ordered 22 Mr. Amin?
23 by plaintiffs. 23 A. Yes.
24 A. Right. 24 Q. Do you have that with you today?
25 Q. Do you have a copy of that with you today? 25 A. Yes, I believe I do. Right here.
Page 111 Page 113
1 A. I -- I believe I do. It would be in this 1 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that
2 box. 2 marked as Exhibit 76, the complete -- That's fine.
3 Q. Could you pull that out for me? 3 THE WITNESS: It's an attachment.
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I think your 4 Do you want me to --
5 microphone just slipped down, sir. 5 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Yeah. I want -- Leave
6 MR. ADKINS: We can go off the 6 it --
7 record while he's looking. 7 A. You --
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 8 Q. Leave it all together. That's how it was
9 1:38 p.m., and we are off the record. 9 in your file.
10 (Off the record.) 10 MR. ROGERS: Let me see.
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have the deposition
12 1:45, and we are back on the record. 12 of Mr. Vyas with you today?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I was 13 A. Yes, I do.
14 saying I -- I can't seem to find that particular 14 Q. Is it in that document?
15 document. 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So you do not have 16 Q. And just so --
17 Galveston Police Department deposition regarding 17 MR. ROGERS: It's in there.
18 police records for Grid 68 for calendar years 25 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. I just had it
19 [sic] through 2008 ordered by plaintiffs? 19 on the --
20 A. That's correct. 20 MR. ROGERS: Amin and Vyas?
21 Q. What police reports do you have in your 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 file? 22 MR. ROGERS: Okay.
23 A. All the ones that correspond to the -- 23 MR. ADKINS: Okay. And that is
24 Q. Can you pull out the police reports that 24 Exhibit 76?
25 you do have? 25 THE COURT REPORTER: I haven't
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1 marked it yet. 1 like to have that marked as the next one, which is
2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) It's all one document, 2 78.
3 correct? 3 MR. ROGERS: 77. What's 77?
4 A. Yes. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 77.
5 Q. Okay. And what's the name of that 5 THE WITNESS: This is 77.
6 document? 6 MR. ROGERS: All right. Thank you.
7 A. Defendants, Stripes, LLC's and Susser 7 (Exhibit 78 marked.)
8 Petroleum Company, LLC's Supplemental Motion for 8 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have Plaintiffs'
9 Traditional Summary Judgment and Supplemental 9 Responses to Defendants' Request for Disclosure?
10 Summary Judgment Evidence. 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 (Exhibit 76 marked.) 11 MR. ADKINS: Okay. I'd like to
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: That was 76? 12 have that marked as 79.
13 MR. ADKINS: 76. 13 (Exhibit 79 marked.)
14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And that was 76, correct? 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have Stripes and
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 Susser's Traditional and No Evidence MSJ? Has that
16 Q. Do you have a copy of Plaintiffs' Second 16 already been previously marked with the deposition
17 Amended Petition with you today? 17 copies? It's 76. I'm sorry. So that has already
18 A. Yes, I believe I do. Okeydoke. 18 been marked as 76.
19 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that 19 No. I'm sorry. Do you have
20 marked as Exhibit 77. 20 Stripes and Susser's Traditional and No Evidence
21 (Exhibit 77 marked.) 21 Motion for Summary Judgment?
22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And do you have a copy of 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Defendants' Second Amended Answer with you there? 23 MR. ADKINS: Okay. I'd like to
24 MR. ADKINS: We can go off the 24 have that marked as 79.
25 record. Just, I guess, pull out the documents 25 THE WITNESS: '9.
Page 115 Page 117
1 that we're going to -- I'm going to ask you for each 1 MR. ADKINS: Yes.
2 one of these. So... 2 THE COURT REPORTER: 80.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3 MR. ADKINS: 80. I'm sorry. So
4 1:54, and we are off the record. 4 that will be marked as 80.
5 (Off the record.) 5 THE COURT REPORTER: Just a second.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now 6 (Exhibit 80 marked.)
7 2:04 p.m., and we are now back on the record. 7 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have Central
8 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Mr. Ortiz, we took a break 8 Security Group Nationwide, Inc. Deposition on
9 so that you could go through your records and put 9 Written Questions?
10 them together based on the information that was 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 provided in the report that you reviewed. We left 11 MR. ADKINS: All right. That will
12 off, I believe, with Defendants' -- Was it 12 be marked as 81 -- Exhibit No. 81.
13 Plaintiffs' Second Amended answer? 13 (Exhibit 81 marked.)
14 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have a copy of
15 Q. Okay. 15 Stripes and Susser's Responses to Court Ordered
16 MR. ROGERS: It's not plaintiffs'. 16 Production from Plaintiffs' June 30th, 2010 Motion
17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I'm sorry. Defendants' 17 to Compel?
18 Second Amended Answer? 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 A. Right. 19 MR. ADKINS: All right. And I'd
20 Q. Okay. Did you have Plaintiffs' Second 20 like to have that marked as 82.
21 Amended Petition? 21 MR. ROGERS: I went to sleep. What
22 A. That was prior to, yes. 22 was 81?
23 Q. Okay. 23 (Exhibit 82 marked.)
24 A. Yes. 24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have Plaintiffs'
25 MR. ADKINS: All right. And I'd 25 Objections and Responses to Stripes and Susser's
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1 traditional and No Evidence Motion for Summary 1 A. Yes.
2 Judgment? 2 Q. Just mark all your police records as one
3 A. Yes, sir. 3 document, because I don't want to go through and
4 MR. ADKINS: All right. I'd like 4 figure out what order they're in, because they look
5 to have that marked as Exhibit 83. 5 like they're not in very good order.
6 (Exhibit 83 marked.) 6 A. Okeydoke.
7 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you have Plaintiffs' 7 MR. ADKINS: That's going to be
8 Supplemental Response to Defendants' Traditional and 8 Exhibit 85.
9 No Evidence Motion for Summary Judgment? 9 THE COURT REPORTER: This entire
10 A. Yes. 10 stack?
11 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that 11 MR. ADKINS: Yes.
12 marked as Exhibit 84. 12 (Exhibit 85 marked.)
13 (Exhibit 84 marked.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) All right. You have the --
14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) As for Exhibit A, Galveston 14 the Google maps of the location?
15 Police Department records, Volume 1, 2 and 3 -- 15 A. Yes.
16 A. Yes. 16 Q. And those have been marked as Exhibit --
17 Q. -- is that part of -- What -- What is that 17 A. 73.
18 Exhibit A to? 18 Q. Okay. You show that you have reviewed
19 A. Galveston Police Department, any -- any and 19 something called the site visit.
20 all records. 20 A. Yes. That's just documenting that I went
21 Q. Has that been previously marked? 21 to the site, to the 4502 Seawall and the area around
22 A. Doesn't look like it, no. 22 it.
23 Q. Have the police -- the -- 23 Q. Okay. So in -- in your -- in your opinion,
24 A. These are all the police reports -- 24 you have that you reviewed the following documents.
25 Q. -- police reports -- 25 Did you not have any documents resulting from that
Page 119 Page 121
1 A. -- yes. 1 site visit?
2 Q. Okay. And so are those the same police 2 A. No.
3 reports that we were referring to earlier -- 3 Q. Okay. So that was an error?
4 A. Yes. 4 A. No. I just -- I just --
5 Q. -- when we were -- when I was asking about 5 Q. There was -- There's not a document?
6 the deposition you couldn't find on the Galveston 6 A. I just told you that -- That was just
7 Police Department deposition regarding police 7 documenting in fairness to you and everybody else to
8 records for Grid 68 for calendar years 2 -- 2005 to 8 indicate -- document that I went to the site.
9 2008? 9 Q. Okay. But there are no documents that
10 A. Yes, sir. Those are the ones, I believe. 10 relate to that, correct?
11 Q. Okay. And those have been marked as... 11 A. No, other than what's in the written
12 A. Those have not been marked, no, sir. 12 opinion.
13 Q. They have not been marked. 13 Q. Okay. So that would be not a document,
14 MR. ADKINS: Okay. Then I would 14 correct?
15 like to go ahead and get those marked as 85. 15 A. No.
16 MR. ROGERS: That's Volume 1, 2 and 16 Q. Okay. So where you have, "the following
17 3? Or you going to mark them separately? 17 documents," that would be incorrect, right?
18 MR. ADKINS: Well, I'm not sure 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 what they are, because... 19 Q. With respect to see -- interview of
20 MR. ROGERS: DWQ to the city police 20 Detective Alfred Paige, Galveston Police
21 department, and I think it's Volume 1, 2 and 3, 21 Department --
22 right? 22 A. Right.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 23 Q. -- do you have any documents regarding that
24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Those are all your police 24 interview?
25 records? 25 A. No.
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1 Q. Do you have any notes regarding that 1 marked as Exhibit 74.
2 interview? 2 MR. ROGERS: 86.
3 A. No. The -- And again, in fairness to you, 3 MR. ADKINS: I'm sorry. 86. My
4 I had a couple of the police reports. I didn't know 4 bad.
5 what certain initials or letters stood for, and I 5 (Exhibit 86 marked.)
6 just kind of showed it to him and asked him -- 6 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Records from Galveston
7 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 7 Police Department SS1274 through 1292, is that in
8 nonresponsive. 8 the stack that's been previously marked as --
9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) With respect to just the 9 A. Yes, sir.
10 interview of Detective Alfred Paige, Galveston 10 Q. -- Exhibit 85?
11 Police Department, do you have any documents related 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 to that interview? 12 Q. Okay. Store photographs marked SS1293
13 A. They're in the police reports. 13 through 1325?
14 Q. Do you have any documents related to the 14 A. Yes, sir.
15 interview of Alfred Paige? 15 MR. ADKINS: Let's have that marked
16 A. Not -- No, sir. 16 as Exhibit 87.
17 Q. So no, you do not? 17 (Exhibit 87 marked.)
18 A. No. 18 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Expert reports of Harold
19 Q. And no notes related to that interview? 19 Warren?
20 A. No, sir. 20 A. Yes, sir. I have that.
21 Q. So again, the fact that you have "the 21 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that
22 following documents" and then you have "interview 22 marked as 88.
23 with effect" -- "Detective Alfred Paige," that would 23 (Exhibit 88 marked.)
24 be, again, a mistake with your -- 24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Expert report of Dr. M.D.
25 A. No. It's not a mistake. I wanted to make 25 Moore?
Page 123 Page 125
1 sure you knew that I interviewed -- and the courts 1 A. Yes, I do.
2 knew that I had done a site visit and -- 2 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that
3 Q. The interview of Detective Alfred Paige has 3 marked as Exhibit 89.
4 not been documented; is that correct? 4 (Exhibit 89 marked.)
5 A. That is correct. 5 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) How are you aware that
6 Q. And so, as a result, it's not one of the 6 Mr. Patel was in the back room when Stevens accosted
7 following documents, correct? 7 Mr. Meje with a pistol?
8 A. There are no -- 8 A. The interview with Detective Paige.
9 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 9 Q. Okay. And did you review the -- any of the
10 THE WITNESS: There -- There was no 10 reports related to the incident that would lead you
11 documents, but it was not a mistake. It was an 11 to believe that Mr. Patel was in the back room?
12 intent on my part to let everyone know that that had 12 A. I don't recall exactly where I got that.
13 transpired. 13 But to answer the first part of your question, yes,
14 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 14 I reviewed the police report regarding the capital
15 nonresponsive. 15 murder of Mr. Meje. I more distinctly remember
16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) You have no documents 16 Detective Paige advising me that Mr. -- And again,
17 related to that interview, correct? 17 I'm sorry for -- if I don't pronounce his last name
18 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. Move 18 correct -- but I believe it's Patel was in the back.
19 on. 19 Q. Okay. So you de -- you got that
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 20 information from your interview with Detective
21 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. Surveillance video 21 Paige?
22 at 4502 Seawall Boulevard, do you have a copy of 22 A. Either that or from reading the police
23 that video with you today? 23 report.
24 A. That's -- Yes, sir. 24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to have that 25 A. I -- I seem to recall clearer that
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1 Detective Paige mentioned it. 1 Nicole Kitchens and --
2 Q. Okay. Where did you get the information 2 A. I believe I did, yes, sir.
3 that Mr. Hutchinson had been living on the road for 3 Q. Okay. And do you have those with you
4 several days and supported themselves by robbery and 4 today?
5 stealing? 5 A. I believe I do. I believe they are part of
6 A. Again, either from the police report or 6 an attachment in one of the defendants' responses,
7 from Detective Paige. And I believe -- 7 but I -- I seem to recall that there was a -- an
8 Q. Can you please point that out? 8 indictment attached.
9 A. I believe it was Detective Paige. 9 Q. Okay. And if there was an indictment
10 Q. Can you point that out in the police 10 attached, would it be in your records in your file?
11 report? Do you know where that is? 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 A. I believe so. 12 Q. Okay.
13 Q. Can you not find that? 13 A. You want to --
14 A. Yes. I found it. I'm just trying to get 14 Q. Don't -- Don't worry about it. Don't look
15 to the narrative. 15 for it. We can look for it later. If it's not
16 Q. That's all right. We can move on. 16 there, would you say that you didn't review it?
17 A. All right. 17 A. I seem to recall that I did.
18 Q. But that -- you're representing that the -- 18 Q. Okay. So if it's not there, where is it,
19 that record is in there, correct? 19 since that's your entire file?
20 A. It -- I'm representing that either I got 20 A. I -- I don't know.
21 that information from the reports or from Detective 21 Q. Okay. So you would have no explanation as
22 Paige. 22 to why that would not be there if it was not in
23 Q. Okay. And was Detective Paige at the scene 23 there?
24 on the night of the incident? 24 A. No, sir.
25 A. I don't recall him saying that. I know he 25 Q. And I'm referring to your file.
Page 127 Page 129
1 was the lead investigator. 1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Okay. So if he was not at the site at the 2 Q. You state in your opinion that according to
3 time of the incident, how would he know that 3 the store owner, Ben Vyas and Dan Amin, that they
4 Mr. Patel was in the back room? 4 were responsible for every aspects of the store
5 A. Well, when you're the lead investigator in 5 operation, including security. And that was based
6 a case, it's your job to interview all the 6 off of deposition testimony of Mr. Vyas, correct?
7 statements and police reports and generate your own, 7 A. Yes.
8 if need be. 8 MR. ROGERS: No.
9 Q. So he would obtain that information from -- 9 MR. ADKINS: Rick, I'm asking him,
10 A. From other officers, from Mr. Patel. 10 and it says that right here.
11 Q. -- from other people? 11 MR. ROGERS: Well, look at the
12 A. Yes, sir. 12 footnotes.
13 Q. Okay. What about the fact that -- or -- or 13 MR. ADKINS: It says, "Deposition
14 the statement that he made about them living on the 14 of Bendra [sic] Vyas, Page 11, Line 7 through 10."
15 road and, since they're out of money, they decided 15 Am I wrong?
16 to rob the store, and they drove there to the store 16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So that's where you got
17 and dropped off Stevens and picked him up? 17 that from, correct?
18 A. Yes. That was from Detective Paige. 18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Okay. "The four were apprehended the same 19 Q. Okay. And it says that Mr. Amin testified
20 morning by police officers and each was found guilty 20 he was responsible for the day-to-day management of
21 for their part in the robbery." 21 the store, which included making all decisions
22 A. I believe that I got that from the police 22 regarding security, and had no interaction with
23 reports and Detective Paige, from -- 23 Stripes or Susser Petroleum Company regarding
24 Q. Did you look at the indictments regarding 24 security issues. And that was from the deposition
25 each of the individuals, Stevens, Katie Wade, China 25 of Mr. Amin, Page 54, Lines 3 through 15; is that
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1 correct? 1 Q. And was that representative of the store in
2 A. Yes, sir. 2 2008?
3 Q. And you got that information solely from 3 A. I don't know.
4 those depositions, correct? 4 Q. Okay. So that wasn't based on any other
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 information except for your store visit?
6 Q. And once again, you didn't review any of 6 A. Yeah. It was based on a -- on my
7 the depositions by any of the Susser or Stripes 7 unannounced visit.
8 employees, correct -- or representatives, correct? 8 Q. In 2011 -- In 2011, correct?
9 A. No, sir. 9 A. Yes.
10 Q. "They testified that the store was free 10 Q. And how many years was it from 2008 to
11 from crime and that they never informed 11 2011?
12 representatives of Stripes or Susser Petroleum of 12 A. It was almost three to the day.
13 crimes on the premises or the area." 13 Q. Okay. "The windows were clean and provided
14 A. Correct. 14 an un" -- "and provided an unobstructed view of
15 Q. And you got that solely from the 15 activities inside and outside the store."
16 depositions of Mr. Amin and Vyas? 16 A. Correct.
17 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you base that opinion on -- or that --
18 Q. Okay. And once again, you didn't review 18 that factual statement on what?
19 any of the other depositions in this case? 19 A. On my visit.
20 A. No, sir. 20 Q. And that was in 2011, correct?
21 Q. "Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin maintain the 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 exterior of the store in a clean and orderly 22 Q. Okay. "The light is plentiful throughout
23 fashion. The interior is clean. The aisles are 23 the exterior and interior of the premises."
24 uncluttered. The merchandise is abundant and neatly 24 A. Correct.
25 stocked in their appropriate shelves." Where did 25 Q. Again, that was based on your 2011 visit?
Page 131 Page 133
1 you get that from? 1 A. Yes.
2 A. From my site visit. 2 Q. "The staff was friendly and helpful."
3 Q. Okay. And when was that site visit? 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Again, it was January 13th, 2011, correct? 4 Q. That was again based on your 2011 visit --
5 A. Yes, sir. 5 visit?
6 Q. And so was that a representative of what 6 A. Yes.
7 the store looked like in 2008? 7 Q. "Store cameras were prominently displayed
8 A. I believe it was, yes. 8 above the cash register, a large screen
9 Q. And what do you base that opinion on? 9 strategically placed behind the south" -- "the cash
10 A. Detective Paige said that that store has 10 register" -- "behind south the cash register where
11 not really changed much at all. He was very 11 the employees and public can easily see the security
12 emphatic about that. 12 monitor."
13 Q. Okay. So you once again based your 13 A. Correct.
14 response on an interview with Detective Paige? 14 Q. And that was based on your visit in 2011,
15 A. Yes, sir. 15 correct?
16 Q. And he knows whether or not the merchandise 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 is abundant? 17 Q. "There are five concave mirrors throughout
18 A. Well, I -- I don't know about that part, 18 the store to help monitor the activities within the
19 but I'm talking about the clean, uncluttered and the 19 store."
20 overall -- His statement to me was that it hasn't 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 changed hardly at all. 21 Q. Is that again based on your 2011 visit?
22 Q. How did you know that the merchandise was 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 abundant and neatly stocked? 23 Q. "The store is equipped with a drop safe."
24 A. When I visited it, that's -- that's the way 24 A. Correct.
25 it was. 25 Q. Is that again based on your 2011 visit?
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1 A. Yes. 1 interview with Detective Paige and the reading of
2 Q. "In addition, Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin 2 Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin's depositions.
3 testified they cultivated an excellent working 3 Q. Okay. So the encouragement of them to take
4 relationship with law enforcement by encouraging 4 breaks, that was based on your experience of being a
5 them to take breaks at the store and providing them 5 police officer and -- and not through partic -- with
6 with refreshments during their breaks." 6 these particular facts of this case, correct?
7 A. Correct. 7 A. Well, all -- all of it.
8 Q. And you base that on? 8 Q. All of it was based on your being a police
9 A. Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin's testimony. 9 officer and --
10 Q. Okay. And other than that testimony, you 10 A. No.
11 don't have anything else to base that on? 11 Q. -- not the particular facts?
12 A. Well, in the next sentence, "Detective 12 A. The testimony of Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin, my
13 Paige described the Citgo as a cop central because 13 interview with Detective Paige and my own personal
14 of the frequency with which the officers stopped at 14 experience.
15 the store to check on it and to take breaks." 15 Q. Where's the part that -- Where -- Where did
16 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 16 you get that they encouraged them to take breaks?
17 nonresponsive. 17 Did you get that from -- Where did you get that
18 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) With respect to the prior 18 from?
19 sentence -- or the one I just stated earlier, "They 19 A. Well, you're just reading part of it.
20 had an excellent working relationship with law 20 Q. Well, I mean, that's -- that's a factual
21 enforcement by encouraging them to take breaks at 21 statement.
22 the store and providing them with refreshments 22 A. No. No. You left most of it out. I --
23 during their breaks," that's solely based on the -- 23 Maybe I don't understand your question. Try your
24 the deposition testimony of Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin, 24 question again.
25 correct? 25 Q. How -- Let's move on. That's fine.
Page 135 Page 137
1 A. You asked me that, and I told you no, 1 "Both testified police officers
2 that's their testimony and then my interview with 2 were at the store almost constantly." And that was
3 Detective Paige. 3 based on the deposition of Mr. Vyas and Amin,
4 Q. Okay. And so Detective Paige told you 4 correct?
5 about the refreshments that they provided? 5 A. Yes, sir.
6 A. Yeah. Absolutely. 6 Q. Solely, correct?
7 Q. And he told you about the encouragement 7 A. Yes.
8 that Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin gave to law enforcement 8 Q. "Detective Paige described the Citgo Stop
9 officers -- 9 as cop central because the frequency of" -- "the
10 A. That's implied. That was -- 10 frequency with which officers stopped at the store
11 Q. -- to take breaks? 11 to check on it and take breaks." So --
12 A. -- common sense. 12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Okay. So that was implied? 13 Q. -- that was based on your interview with
14 A. Uh-huh. 14 Detective Paige, correct?
15 Q. Okay. So that wasn't based on your 15 A. Well, both of those sentences go hand in
16 interview with Detective Paige, was it? 16 hand. If you want to split hairs --
17 A. What part wasn't? 17 Q. The "cop central" statement, that came from
18 Q. The -- The part about encouraging them to 18 Detective Paige, correct?
19 take breaks at the store and providing with 19 A. Correct.
20 refreshments during their breaks. 20 Q. And again, you talk about the breaks. And
21 A. We in the police profession know that 21 did the breaks -- that -- The breaks came from your
22 that's -- they go hand in hand. 22 inference of -- of what they do, correct?
23 Q. Okay. So that was based on your knowledge 23 A. I don't know how to interpret your
24 and the -- the police -- 24 question.
25 A. My experience, yes, and then again, my 25 Q. Well, I mean, did -- did Mr. Amin or
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1 Mr. Vyas say that they take -- that police officers 1 journals or any other documents or peer-reviewed
2 take breaks there? 2 documents with respect to two employees increasing
3 A. Oh, absolutely. 3 the -- enhancing the security of the store -- of
4 Q. Okay. And so you based that factual 4 a -- of a retail establishment?
5 statement off of the deposition testimony of 5 A. Yes.
6 Mr. Amin and Mr. Vyas, correct? 6 Q. You have?
7 A. Well, just to be clear, police officers are 7 A. Yes.
8 going to take breaks. Where they choose to take 8 Q. And did you bring those with you today?
9 those breaks is, I guess, the core of the comment. 9 A. No.
10 But the environment that Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin 10 Q. And can you point out by name any of these
11 created encouraged them to take breaks there. 11 studies, journals or any peer-reviewed articles?
12 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 12 A. No. The -- The ones pertaining to the
13 nonresponsive. 13 police, I believe it was the -- Oh, the name -- the
14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did you talk to any of the 14 name escapes me right now. The others were in my
15 police officers that actually took breaks at this 15 crime prevention courses at the academy and in the
16 store? 16 crime prevention courses -- course that I took for a
17 A. Just Detective Paige. 17 crime prevention specialist.
18 Q. Okay. Did you talk to -- You say -- It 18 Q. Okay. So other than the course you took as
19 says "cop central." I'm wondering if you talked 19 a police officer or being a crime prevention
20 to -- It says "officers" as well. So you talked to 20 specialist, there's -- you -- today, for the ladies
21 one officer, a detective, correct? 21 and gentlemen of the jury, you cannot point out a
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 single article, peer review or -- peer-reviewed
23 Q. And did you talk to any other officers that 23 article, journal or any study or statistics that
24 said that they took breaks at this store? 24 shows that two employees on duty inside the store
25 A. No, sir. 25 enhance the security. Am I correct?
Page 139 Page 141
1 Q. So with respect to the plurality of the 1 A. No. I can't point out to a specific one.
2 word "officers," you made that statement based on 2 The agency I was trying to remember a minute ago is
3 the interview with Detective Paige solely, correct? 3 the Police Executive Research Forum, PERF.
4 A. No, sir. 4 Q. And is that an article? Or is that an
5 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. With Detective 5 organization?
6 Paige, Vyas and Amin's deposition, correct? 6 A. That -- Well, that -- that was an
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 organization that printed -- did some studies back
8 Q. Okay. "On the night that Mr. Meje was 8 in the '70s when I was a patrolman in regards to
9 killed, security efforts were enhanced by having two 9 having multiple employees, two police cars in -- two
10 employees on duty inside the store." 10 police officers in one car versus one.
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And do you remember the date and name of
12 Q. Okay. Where -- What do you base that 12 the article or the study?
13 opinion on? 13 A. No. No.
14 A. The opinion of the security effort being 14 Q. And -- Okay. "Plaintiffs proffered two
15 enhanced? 15 documents, index of violent crimes near 4502 Seawall
16 Q. By two employees. 16 Boulevard and summary of violent crimes,
17 A. Right. Just safety in numbers and having 17 January 31st, 2005 to January 31st, 2008, police
18 two sets of eyes that are observing everything 18 department Grid 68 that paints a grossly exaggerated
19 that's going on inside and outside the store. 19 picture of violent crimes in this area."
20 Q. Have you read any statistics or studies 20 Subsequent to, I believe, what
21 with respect to the probability of two employees 21 you're describing in these -- Have you reviewed any
22 increasing or decreasing the amount of safety of the 22 of the subsequent affidavits that were provided at
23 store? 23 the deposition of -- of Harold Warren?
24 A. As they relate to police officers, yes. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Have you read any statistics or studies or 25 Q. You did. And did you bring those with you
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1 today? 1 Q. What about banks?
2 A. These documents here? 2 A. No. I don't recall the name of the banks.
3 Q. No, the affidavits. 3 Q. What about purveyors of related services?
4 A. No, sir. 4 What do you mean by that statement?
5 Q. Okay. The affidavits that -- with the 5 A. Souvenir shops, sandwich shops. There
6 attached police reports? 6 was -- There's a surf shop, souvenirs, those kind of
7 MR. ROGERS: We have them. I gave 7 things, pizza places.
8 them to him last night. You gave us to -- You gave 8 Q. And where are those -- Can you tell me with
9 them to us at Warren's deposition. I gave them to 9 any particu -- degree of particularity where a
10 him last night to look at. I have them if you want 10 souvenir shop would be in respect to the vicinity of
11 to see them. 11 the store?
12 MR. ADKINS: Yeah. If you could, 12 A. Yes. Up and down the Seawall from the
13 that would be great. 13 Citgo going west, I guess, all along the next five
14 MR. ROGERS: Go get them for us, 14 or six, eight blocks or so, there's several
15 Raj. They're in -- back there -- 15 individual stores and several little strip malls,
16 MR. ADKINS: Can we take a break? 16 for lack of a better term, just businesses that are
17 MR. ROGERS: It's an affidavit of 17 kind of congregated together.
18 business records. 18 Q. And can you name any of those by name
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Take a break? 19 today?
20 MR. ROGERS: No. Let's keep going. 20 A. No, not offhand.
21 Raj can find them. 21 Q. What about a pizza place? Is there a pizza
22 MR. ADKINS: Okay. We'll continue. 22 place nearby that you can name by name?
23 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) You said you reviewed the 23 A. No, not that I recall independently.
24 actual police reports for the three-year period 24 Q. Sitting here today, can you name by name
25 prior to the incident made the basis of this 25 any of the surrounding retail businesses that you
Page 143 Page 145
1 lawsuit. Are all the police reports that you've 1 speak of in your report?
2 reviewed here with you today at -- excluding those 2 A. Yes. There was Academy, Radio Shack. I
3 that Rog -- Mr. Rogers just pointed out that are in 3 can't think of the name of the liquor stores. The
4 the affidavits? 4 Goodwill store, Subway shop. I can't remember. I
5 A. Yes. 5 just know there was a whole bunch of them.
6 Q. Okay. And those have been marked as 6 Q. Are those all that you can name today?
7 Exhibit -- Hold on. I got it -- Exhibit 85, 7 A. Yes.
8 correct? 8 Q. Okay. Did you call any of these places and
9 A. Yes. 9 find out what their hours of operation were?
10 Q. Okay. 10 A. No.
11 MR. ROGERS: Albert, can I see 11 Q. Do -- Do you know if any of these stores
12 that? Thank you. 12 are operated at night?
13 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) In your report, you state 13 A. No, I don't.
14 that the area around the Citgo Stop is densely 14 Q. So sitting here today, you cannot tell
15 popu -- populated and has a heavy concentration of 15 us -- you cannot tell the ladies and gentlemen of
16 commercial and retail businesses and the usual 16 the jury whether or not any of the surrounding
17 assortment of schools, churches, banks and purveyors 17 stores were open 24 hours a day, correct?
18 of related services. Where did you gather that 18 A. No, sir.
19 information from? 19 Q. And if we were to show at trial that --
20 A. From driving through the area. 20 that -- or represent to -- to the ladies and
21 Q. Can you name any of the schools that are 21 gentlemen of the jury that these -- these places
22 surrounding that area? 22 were closed during the early morning hours, you
23 A. No. 23 would not have any information to dispute that,
24 Q. What about churches? 24 correct?
25 A. No. 25 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
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1 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 1 show that?
2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) At this point in time, 2 A. No, sir.
3 correct? 3 Q. Do you have anything that shows that as a
4 A. Correct. 4 consequent -- Or is -- is there anything that
5 Q. Do you have any reason to believe why 5 Detective Paige said that would lead you to believe
6 Academy, a liquor store, Goodwill and Subway would 6 that, as a consequent, vehicular and pedestrian
7 be open at 3:00 in the morning? 7 traffic is heavy at 3:00 o'clock in the morning?
8 A. Do I have any -- 8 A. No.
9 Q. Reason to believe that. 9 Q. Did he say that it was heavy at
10 A. That they would be open? 10 3:00 o'clock in the morning or --
11 Q. At 3:00 o'clock in the morning. 11 A. No, sir.
12 A. Oh, no, sir. I don't have any reason to 12 Q. -- in the early morning hours? No?
13 believe that they would be. 13 Okay. "The residential areas
14 Q. Have you ever seen any of those places open 14 immediately north of the" -- Or, "The residential
15 at 3:00 o'clock in the morning? 15 area immediately north of the store consists of
16 A. No. I can't rightly say that I have. 16 modest but well-kept homes, well-manicured yard" --
17 Q. Okay. "The beach is a popular attraction 17 "and well-manicured yards" -- or "well-manicured
18 for tourists and locals alike and mainstay of local 18 yards."
19 commerce." 19 A. Yes, sir.
20 A. Correct. 20 Q. Did you go around and look at the yards?
21 Q. And I'm -- You gathered that, what, from 21 A. Oh, yes. We spent most of the time in the
22 your visiting? 22 area behind -- or north of the store.
23 A. Yeah. I've been to Galveston several 23 Q. Okay. And once again, your visit was in
24 times. 24 January -- on -- It was in --
25 Q. Okay. How many times have you been to 25 A. 13th.
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1 Galveston? 1 Q. -- 2011, correct?
2 A. I believe five times. 2 A. 13th.
3 Q. In your life? 3 Q. January 13th, 2011. Thank you. And so did
4 A. Yes, sir. 4 you review anything that would show that the yards
5 Q. "As a consequence, vehicular and pedestrian 5 and surrounding area were not well -- or well --
6 traffic is heavy." Where did you get that statement 6 were well maintained during the time period that the
7 from? 7 events in question happened?
8 A. From my observations and then just 8 A. No, sir.
9 generally from talking to Detective Paige who said 9 Q. You say that there is no signs of gang
10 that, although their population is only like 55,000, 10 activity, graffiti or abandoned or unoccupied homes.
11 that during the summertime it swells up to four 11 A. Correct.
12 times that. 12 Q. And was that again based on your evaluation
13 Q. And did the events that we're here today 13 of the area in 2011?
14 occur -- or the events that -- that led us to be 14 A. And the comments by Detective Paige.
15 here today and the death of Abdul Meje occur during 15 Q. Okay. And did you review -- Once again,
16 the summertime? 16 you -- you reviewed the -- did you review the
17 A. No, sir. 17 photographs that were attached to the depositions --
18 Q. Okay. When did they occur? 18 You haven't reviewed the photographs in -- that were
19 A. I believe I testified that it occurred on 19 attached to the depositions in this case, correct?
20 January the 31st of 2008. 20 A. No. I don't -- I don't believe --
21 Q. Is there anything that you can point to 21 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
22 factually that shows that as a consequence -- 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
23 besides your -- your interview with Detective Paige, 23 I don't believe I have.
24 that as a consequence vehicular and pedestrian 24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) You haven't reviewed the
25 traffic is heavy? Do you have any documents that 25 photographs of the surrounding area taken in 2008 --
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1 A. Oh, no, sir. 1 Q. Okay. Well, wouldn't that give you a
2 Q. -- in this case? 2 reason to believe that it -- possibly Mr. Amin or
3 A. No, sir. 3 Mr. Vyas could be incorrect?
4 Q. Okay. 4 A. No, not really. That's two different --
5 MR. ROGERS: Yeah, you have. 5 two different areas.
6 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And so your opinion that -- 6 Q. Well, if they're incorrect on one thing and
7 or -- or your factual statement that there was no 7 then -- then they testify under oath that it's true
8 signs of gang activity, graffiti or abandoned or 8 and correct and it's not, I mean, isn't it possible
9 unoccupied homes is based solely on your interview 9 that they could be incorrect on other things as
10 with Detective Paige and your visit to the site -- 10 well?
11 A. That's correct. 11 A. My -- In my opinion, they did -- wouldn't
12 Q. -- in 2011, correct? 12 have any reason to lie about their responsibility
13 A. That's correct. 13 for the day-to-day operations of the store.
14 Q. Okay. On your opinions, you start by 14 Q. Sitting here today, you can't testify one
15 saying, "Based on the documents I reviewed and 15 way or another that Susser or Stripes did or did not
16 listed above, Stripes and Susser Petroleum did not 16 control any aspects of the store because you haven't
17 control the day-to-day operations, including the 17 read any of their depositions, correct?
18 safety and security of invitees of the Citgo Stop." 18 A. Well, I can only go by what I did read, so
19 What do you mean by that? 19 that's what I'm basing my opinions on.
20 A. I don't know how else to explain it to you. 20 Q. Well, I mean, am I correct?
21 It's -- It seemed that from reading especially the 21 A. I don't know what's in those depositions,
22 depositions of Mr. Amin and Mr. Vyas that they 22 Counselor.
23 controlled the day-to-day operations of the store. 23 Q. Right. What I'm saying is, is you can't
24 Mr. Vyas pretty much delegated it all to Mr. Amin. 24 base your opinion on anything -- Like, you're
25 Q. And so you know -- Did you ever review -- 25 basing -- you're -- you're saying that -- that ABHI
Page 151 Page 153
1 You didn't review any of the -- the depositions of 1 controlled the day-to-day operations and the safety
2 Susser and Stripes. So how do you know that -- that 2 and security of the store based on the depositions
3 they hadn't testified that they maintained some 3 of ABHI solely, correct?
4 operations of the store? 4 A. Well, the entire opinion is prefaced by
5 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 5 that first sentence. It says, "Based on the
6 THE WITNESS: Primarily because 6 documents I reviewed." And so --
7 Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin said they ran the day-to-day 7 Q. Right. And we went through those
8 operations. 8 documents, and none of those documents included the
9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I mean, isn't it true that 9 depositions of --
10 you wouldn't know either way even if they -- They 10 A. That's correct.
11 could have admitted in their deposition that they 11 Q. -- Susser and Stripes employees, correct?
12 did control the store, but you would have no idea, 12 A. That's correct.
13 correct, because you didn't review that 13 Q. And so you wouldn't know one way or another
14 deposition -- those depositions, correct? 14 if they testified to operating certain aspects of
15 A. Well, I -- 15 the store, correct?
16 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 16 A. Sus -- Susser and Stripes? I don't have
17 THE WITNESS: I don't see any 17 any idea of what's in those depositions.
18 reason why Mr. Amin and Mr. Vyas would want to 18 Q. Correct.
19 assume that responsibility if it weren't accurate. 19 A. Correct. So I can only base my opinion on
20 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Well, did Mr. Amin and 20 the documents I do review.
21 Mr. Vyas testify that -- that no crimes happened at 21 Q. So they could have said anything in there,
22 that store? 22 and you would have no idea?
23 A. Yes, they did. 23 A. Who are you talking about? Sus -- The
24 Q. And did crimes happen at that store? 24 people --
25 A. It appears that some soft crimes did. 25 Q. Susser and Stripes, their employees. They
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1 could have said anything in this deposition; you'd 1 advisable.
2 have no idea? 2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And if OSHA's safety
3 A. I'm sure they said anything, but I don't 3 standards were not followed, would you say that that
4 know what that anything is. 4 would be imprudent?
5 Q. "In my opinion" -- "In my opinion, ABHI 5 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
6 exercised ordinary and prudent care in the operation 6 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily. I'm
7 of the Citgo Stop store and provided and maintained 7 just basing specifically -- If you can tell me
8 a reasonably safe environment for the general 8 specifically what OSHA standard led to this tragedy,
9 public, its customers and employees." 9 then I might differ. But from my perspective, from
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 what I've seen, that was a safe location, people
11 Q. And once again, you base that solely on the 11 went there for all kinds of reasons, and there was
12 documents that you reviewed earlier? 12 no crime in and around that area that would lead us
13 A. Yes, sir. 13 to believe that this tragedy could be averted or
14 Q. And your experience as a police officer, 14 foreseeable.
15 correct? 15 But if you have a specific standard
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 that you -- that you want to enter -- entertain --
17 Q. Did -- Did you review any OSHA standards? 17 like me to entertain, then...
18 Are you aware of any OSHA standards -- 18 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I mean, you're not familiar
19 A. Well, I'm aware of -- 19 with any standards?
20 Q. -- with respect to the security and safety 20 A. Not off the top of my head. I mean, I'm
21 of employees? 21 just generally speaking.
22 A. I'm generally aware of them. But no, I 22 Q. Are you familiar with any reports or --
23 didn't review any of those documents. 23 or -- or published articles from OSHA regarding the
24 Q. Are you familiar with them in any way? 24 security of a retail establishment?
25 A. No. I mean, just in -- in general as the 25 A. I've --
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1 overlap between my training and education and 1 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
2 experience at the police department. But 2 THE WITNESS: I've read several
3 specifically, no, I couldn't -- couldn't point out 3 over the years, but none of them come to mind
4 anything. 4 that -- or the specifics of them.
5 Q. Without knowing what the standards are, do 5 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So you didn't base any of
6 you believe that you still -- what, like, OSHA 6 your opinions on those, did you?
7 standards are, do you believe you're still capable 7 A. No. That's why I didn't list them on -- on
8 of -- of providing an opinion as to whether or not 8 that list. The only thing I based my opinion on was
9 ABHI followed those standards if you never reviewed 9 on that list that we were talking about.
10 any of those standards? 10 Q. And with respect to security of a retail
11 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 11 establishment, the only -- the only education is
12 THE WITNESS: I'm basing my opinion 12 that which we've gone over already, correct?
13 on -- on the documents I reviewed and my training 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 and experience and education. And -- And in all 14 Q. Okay. Education you received?
15 those aspects, it seems very, very clear to me 15 A. Yeah. And -- And they overlap. All of
16 that -- that they used ordinary care. 16 them overlap.
17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What is ordinary care? 17 Q. Okay. "It's also my opinion that
18 A. Just standard of reasonableness that any 18 Mr. Ben Vyas and Dan Amin of ABHI, Inc. exercised
19 prudent person would exercise under normal 19 and maintained control over the security and safety
20 conditions. 20 of the premises at the time of the incident made the
21 Q. And would it be prudent to follow OSHA 21 basis of this suit."
22 safety standards? 22 A. Yes, sir.
23 A. I -- Yeah. 23 Q. What did you base that opinion on?
24 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 24 A. The same thing we just went over, the --
25 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that's 25 the documents that I've listed and --
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1 Q. Specifically what documents? 1 Q. And you base that opinion on what?
2 A. The depositions of Mr. Amin and Mr. Vyas. 2 A. On these documents that I've read.
3 Q. So you based that opinion solely on the 3 Q. And you didn't review any of the other
4 deposition testimony of Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin? 4 depositions. And you're basing it solely on these
5 A. That's correct. 5 depositions, but you didn't review the other ones,
6 Q. And once again, you can't -- you can't 6 and you're saying that -- that Susser and Stripes
7 testify as to what Susser and Stripes employees said 7 didn't maintain any control. But you -- But you
8 that they did at that retail establishment made 8 didn't even review their depositions. How do you
9 sub -- at the retail establishment made subject of 9 know that?
10 this suit, correct? 10 A. I just --
11 A. No, but I did read the lease, sublease and 11 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
12 assignment documents that were in there. 12 THE WITNESS: I can only testify to
13 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 13 what I was pro -- provided to review.
14 nonresponsive to -- Or object to the nonresponsive 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I mean, would you agree
15 portion of the -- of the answer. 15 with me that -- that you can't know what you haven't
16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So for all you know, Susser 16 been able to review?
17 and Stripes may have maintained some control over 17 A. That's -- That would be accurate, I guess,
18 the safety and security of the premises at the time 18 but I couldn't form my opinion on what I didn't
19 of the incident -- 19 review. There's a lot of stuff I haven't reviewed.
20 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 20 Q. Well, I mean, you say right here that
21 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 21 Susser and Stripes did not control day-to-day
22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) -- but you don't know for 22 operations, including safety and security of
23 sure -- 23 invitees of the Citgo Stop.
24 A. For all I know -- 24 A. Correct.
25 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 25 Q. Okay. So are you saying that they didn't
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1 THE WITNESS: For all I know -- 1 maintain the safety, secure -- security as a part of
2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) -- within a reasonable 2 the day-to-day operations? So...
3 degree of -- of certainty? 3 A. I do not understand your question. Or I --
4 A. Yes. For all I know, to a reasonable 4 Q. Or are -- are -- is same answer --
5 degree of certainty, based on the documents I 5 A. I don't know how else to re-answer.
6 reviewed, Mr. Amin and -- and Mr. Vyas maintain 6 Q. Is what you're saying is that the safety
7 control of the day-to-day operations of that store. 7 and security of the day-to-day operations were not
8 Q. Can you state with a degree of reasonable 8 maintained by Susser and Stripes?
9 certainty that Susser and Stripes did not maintain 9 A. What I have written there is, "It is
10 any control or security for the store? 10 further my opinion Mr. Bhupendra 'Ben' Vyas and
11 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 11 Dhanraj 'Dan' Amin of ABHI Enterprises, Inc.
12 THE WITNESS: Just based on what I 12 exercised and maintained control over the security
13 know, I saw no evidence that they did. 13 and safety of the premises at the time of the
14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. But can you testify 14 incident made the basis of this lawsuit."
15 that they did not -- 15 Q. But your first sentence of that paragraph
16 MR. ROGERS: Objection -- 16 says, "Stripes and Susser did not control the
17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) -- exercise security or -- 17 day-to-day operations, including the safety and
18 or -- that they did not exercise control over the 18 security of invitees."
19 safety and security of the store? 19 A. Correct.
20 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. What does that -- I mean, is -- are
21 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 21 you saying that safety and security is a component
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would testify 22 of day-to-day operations?
23 to that. 23 A. Well, certainly.
24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) That they did not? 24 Q. Okay. Is there other aspects of managing a
25 A. That -- That Susser and Stripes did not. 25 retail establishment or property that may have to do
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1 with safety and security outside the day-to-day 1 to -- you can't say, "Well, they're responsible for
2 operation? 2 the day-to-day operations." They haven't been on
3 A. Run that question by me again. 3 the premises forever.
4 Q. Is there any aspect of -- of controlling 4 Q. But it's a certain aspect of day-to-day
5 the safety and security of a premises outside the 5 operations. Would you consider that?
6 day-to-day operations? 6 A. No. That's an unusual occurrence. People
7 A. No, not -- not really. I mean, the 7 don't, on a daily basis, replace doors and --
8 day-to-day operations are -- sustain the efforts to 8 Q. Maintaining doors and windows is not a
9 maintain the safety and security of the invitees. 9 day-to-day --
10 Q. What do you consider day-to-day operations? 10 A. Well, there's a difference between cleaning
11 A. You know, from the time you open the store 11 them, making sure nobody's put a BB hole through it
12 and first employee goes to work till they get off. 12 and installing it.
13 In this particular case, 24/7. 13 Q. Okay. So it's -- You would say -- So the
14 Day-to-day operations is how the -- 14 installation of security glass and -- Or, I'm sorry.
15 pretty much you make the decision how the store is 15 The installation of glass and -- and -- and doors
16 going to run from one end to the other, safety, 16 and windows, that would be outside the day-to-day
17 security, cleanliness, prices, what they're going to 17 operations?
18 sell, who they're going to buy it from. 18 A. I -- I would think so.
19 Q. Would you consider lighting a part of 19 Q. Okay. And is there anything about doors,
20 day-to-day operations? 20 windows that have to do with security?
21 A. Well, certainly. 21 A. Well, to a certain degree, yes.
22 Q. And so if Susser and Stripes admitted that 22 Q. So would you agree with me that there are
23 they controlled lighting on the outside of the 23 certain aspects of safety and security that may fall
24 premises, would you consider that part of the 24 outside the day-to-day operations?
25 day-to-day operations? 25 A. Yeah, if -- if I understand your question
Page 163 Page 165
1 A. If they were there every day -- 1 correctly. But you can't expect, say, an employee
2 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 2 or an interested party that hasn't been on the
3 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 3 premises in two or three weeks to be able to
4 MR. ROGERS: I said objection; 4 maintain the premises, whatever aspect you want to
5 form. 5 talk about, as the one that goes to work every day
6 THE WITNESS: If they were there 6 8:00 to 5:00 or midnight to 6:00 in the morning.
7 every day or at least substantially the greater part 7 MR. ADKINS: Object to -- to the
8 of a week to ensure the lighting was on and working, 8 nonresponsive portion of the question -- or the
9 yeah, you'd have to fix them, but it's really up to 9 answer.
10 whoever's there day to day. And if the light goes 10 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Replacing doors and windows
11 out at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, you report it, 11 has to do with security, correct?
12 and it gets replaced. 12 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
13 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What about maintaining the 13 That's not what he said.
14 car wash? Is that part of the day-to-day 14 THE WITNESS: Again, it may or may
15 operations? 15 not.
16 A. Yes, I -- I believe so. 16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Have you --
17 Q. What about trash in front of the store? 17 A. If -- If -- If -- If you have a business
18 Would that be day-to-day operations? 18 that the front door is cracked and doesn't lock very
19 A. Sure. 19 well and you're only open 8:00 to 5:00, you're going
20 Q. What about replacing doors and windows? 20 to replace that door right away.
21 Would that be part of day-to-day operations? 21 Q. If you didn't have doors, would --
22 A. That's kind of an unusual occurrence. But 22 A. If you're open 24/7 --
23 yeah, when you see the need for that to happen, then 23 Q. If you didn't have doors, would it be more
24 you hire somebody or get somebody to do it. Once 24 or less secure?
25 they do it and they're gone, you can't expect them 25 A. Oh, less secure, I'm sure.
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1 Q. Okay. And if you didn't have windows, 1 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
2 would it be more or less secure? 2 THE WITNESS: I -- I think it falls
3 A. It would be less secure. 3 outside the day-to-day activities that -- that
4 Q. Okay. So does maintaining doors and 4 define day-to-day operations, I believe.
5 windows have to do somewhat with security? 5 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. What about removal
6 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 6 of graffiti?
7 THE WITNESS: Once again -- 7 A. Would you expound on your question?
8 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Will you even agree with me 8 Q. Would --
9 on that? 9 A. You talking about day-to-day operations? I
10 A. If a convenience store doesn't have doors 10 mean --
11 or windows and there's no crimes -- 11 Q. Yeah. I mean, would that be part of
12 Q. Would -- Would you say that's less secure? 12 day-to-day operations?
13 A. Well, you're interrupting me, because I 13 A. Yeah. I -- I think so.
14 don't think you're going to like the -- the answer. 14 Q. All right. Would receiving citations from
15 But if there's no stores -- if 15 the City for having graffiti and -- and then doing
16 there's no windows or doors at a convenience store 16 what's needed to get it removed be part of
17 and you go seven days and not a single thing 17 day-to-day operations?
18 happens, nothing happened. If you have the best 18 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
19 security system in the world and you get robbed, you 19 THE WITNESS: I -- I -- I think
20 know, that happens too. 20 that's your responsibility on a daily basis.
21 Q. So you're testifying -- 21 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. What about making
22 A. So it's really -- it's really -- You're 22 sure that employees wear name tags? Is that part of
23 asking me to look into the future. 23 the day-to-day operation?
24 Q. So -- So you're testifying here today 24 A. I would -- I would believe so, yes.
25 that -- that having no doors and windows on the 25 Q. What about the way employees meet and greet
Page 167 Page 169
1 store would not make it less secure? 1 customers? Is that part of the day-to-day
2 A. No. No. No. That's not what I'm saying. 2 operations?
3 I'm just saying that because it's less secure 3 A. I think what you're talking about -- And
4 doesn't mean that something untoward may happen. It 4 again, I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your
5 may or may not. But -- 5 question. But you're -- you're talking about what
6 Q. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just 6 the -- a store policy --
7 saying if doors and windows make a place less -- 7 Q. Well, I mean, is store policy --
8 more or less secure. 8 A. -- en -- enforcement.
9 A. I -- I think it makes them more secure if 9 Q. -- part of day-to-day operations?
10 you have them. I would recommend that everybody 10 A. Pardon?
11 have them. 11 Q. Sorry. I'm -- I'm sorry. I'm going to
12 Q. Okay. That's all I asked. So that would 12 interrupt for two seconds. The court reporter's
13 fall outside the day-to-day operations, though, 13 trying to keep us -- keep a steady record. Let's
14 correct? 14 try not to speak over each other as --
15 A. Yeah. I -- The installation and removal 15 A. I apologize for my part. I did it again.
16 and -- and -- and placement of windows and doors, 16 Q. And mine as well.
17 yeah. I mean, you can hire any glass company to put 17 Would how employees meet and greet
18 in those -- those doors. That doesn't mean they're 18 customers -- You just said -- When I asked that --
19 responsible for the safety and security of the -- of 19 if that was part of day-to-day operations, you
20 the people that -- of the invitees. 20 stated that it was part of policy or store policy.
21 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 21 Is store policy a part of day-to-day operations?
22 nonresponsive. 22 A. I -- That sets the parameters, yeah,
23 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Installing doors and 23 between how you conduct business every day.
24 windows falls outside or inside day-to-day 24 Q. So establishing certain pri -- or certain
25 operation? 25 policies would be part of day-to-day operations,
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1 such as how the employees meet and greet customers, 1 correct?
2 how -- whether they wear name tags, et cetera? 2 A. Yes.
3 A. Again, the policies establish the 3 Q. You thought trash was day-to-day
4 parameters within which you will operate the 4 operations, correct?
5 business on a day-to-day basis. But whoever's 5 A. Pretty much, yes.
6 managing the store and has day-to-day control over 6 Q. Maintaining?
7 the business is the ones that ensures that each 7 A. Yes, sir.
8 person has a name tag, how you -- They're the ones 8 Q. You thought replacement of doors and
9 that are there to see how -- 9 windows was not day-to-day operations, although it
10 Q. So they enforce the policies? 10 has to do with security, at least in part?
11 A. Yes, pretty much. They put them in effect. 11 A. That's pretty fair.
12 Because if you have policies and they're not 12 Q. Are you aware of any activities of Susser
13 enforced, you, in essence, don't really have a 13 and Stripes at the retail establishment at issue in
14 policy. But it's the people with the day-to-day 14 this case?
15 control of the operation that -- that will help you 15 A. Am I aware of any what?
16 do that. 16 Q. Any -- Any activities on the property of
17 MR. ROGERS: Time out. I've got to 17 Susser and Stripes.
18 go to the restroom. I can't take it. 18 A. No, other than entering into leases and
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 19 subleases with -- with the people who run Stripes --
20 3:06 p.m., and we are off the record. 20 I mean, who run -- who run the Citgo. I'm sorry.
21 (Off the record.) 21 Q. So would it surprise you if you heard or --
22 (On the written record only at 22 or reviewed -- later reviewed testimony that said
23 3:16 p.m.) 23 that Susser and Stripes did various activities on
24 MR. ROGERS: You asked for a copy 24 the property?
25 of the business records affidavit that you produced 25 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
Page 171 Page 173
1 to me at Warren's deposition. And I -- I -- I think 1 THE WITNESS: Depending on what
2 he said he had seen one of these records. I'm going 2 those activities were. I mean, I -- it wouldn't
3 to -- I'm giving it to him. I produced it here at 3 surprise me, no, to try to answer your question.
4 the office because I think he saw it last night 4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. Would it surprise
5 when -- when we were here. 5 you to learn that Susser and Stripes maintain
6 But in any event, all the marks on 6 lighting outside -- on the outside of the property,
7 that -- all the underlining and any marks on that 7 including the -- underneath the -- the soffit?
8 document are mine, and I'm not going to let you ask 8 A. Yes, sir.
9 him questions about who underlined -- underlined 9 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
10 this or who underlined that -- 10 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you know what a soffit
11 MR. ADKINS: I won't. 11 is?
12 MR. ROGERS: -- because I'm telling 12 A. Yeah. I think I know what you're talking
13 you I did it. 13 about. It's the little short awning right from the
14 MR. ADKINS: I'm not going to ask 14 wall out?
15 him questions about that. 15 Q. Uh-huh.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. This 16 A. Yes.
17 is the beginning of Disc No. 3 of the Ortiz 17 Q. So would that surprise you to learn that
18 deposition. The time is 3:18 p.m. We are on the 18 they maintain the lighting un -- underneath the
19 record. 19 soffit?
20 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Mr. Ortiz, we left off -- 20 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
21 we were talking about safety and security and 21 THE WITNESS: And, again, not to
22 day-to-day operations, and we went through a couple 22 split hairs, but what are you talking about when you
23 things that -- that you believe were day-to-day 23 say "maintain"?
24 operations. And specifically, some of those were -- 24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) That they were responsible
25 You thought car wash was day-to-day operations, 25 for replacing and -- and installing and changing
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1 lights underneath the soffit. 1 lights on the premises?
2 A. No. That wouldn't surprise me. I just 2 A. No. It wouldn't surprise me.
3 want to draw the distinction between day-to-day 3 Q. Okay. Would it surprise you that Susser
4 operations, maintaining, versus, "Okay. It's 4 inspects the premises with respect to certain
5 broken. It's your duty to come replace it." 5 aspects, such as trash and the maintenance of the
6 Q. All right. Right. I'm -- I'm just saying 6 car wash?
7 would it sur -- You -- You said that you weren't 7 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
8 aware of any activities, and I was just wondering if 8 THE WITNESS: No. That wouldn't
9 you'd be surprised. 9 surprise me.
10 A. Well, and, again, activity is such a 10 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) All right. Would it --
11 broad -- I thought visiting or inspecting. 11 Would it surprise you that the City of Galveston
12 Activity's such a broad term. 12 sent notices of violation to Susser and Stripes with
13 Q. Well, I mean, is -- is replacing -- 13 respect to having graffiti on the premises?
14 A. I -- 14 A. That wouldn't surprise me, no.
15 Q. -- lights a little more than visiting or 15 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that after
16 inspecting? 16 the lease -- after the leasing of the premises to
17 A. Yes. But again, we're -- it -- I wouldn't 17 Seawall Citgo and then subsequently through
18 be surprised if that happened on a day-to-day basis. 18 assignment to ABHI that Susser and Stripes replaced
19 I don't know that they'd know that the lights needed 19 the storefront on the premises?
20 fixing or replacing unless somebody that was there 20 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
21 maintaining control of the premises reported that. 21 THE WITNESS: No. I don't know how
22 Q. Do you have to typically replace lights or 22 to answer your question. But no, it wouldn't
23 do you have any knowledge about having to replace 23 surprise me, no.
24 outside lights on a day-to-day basis? 24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) All right. Would it
25 A. No, of course not. 25 surprise you that they subsequently installed lights
Page 175 Page 177
1 Q. Have you ever replaced any lights outside 1 under the soffit?
2 your house every day on a day-to -- day-to-day 2 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
3 basis? 3 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
4 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. All these things
5 THE WITNESS: No. But on a 5 that they did or those various aspects of things
6 day-to-day basis, I know when they go out and need 6 they did, those are all activities on a premises,
7 to be replaced. That's -- That's an unusual 7 correct --
8 occurrence. 8 A. Yeah. They -- They --
9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) On occasion, lights go out, 9 Q. -- on the site of a premises that --
10 correct? 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 A. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to say. 11 Q. -- you need to do, right?
12 Exactly. That's not a day-to-day basis activity 12 A. Yes, sir.
13 that you undertake. But if you're there on a 13 Q. Is that part of maintaining a property?
14 day-to-day basis, you will notice that the lights 14 A. Yes. Absolutely. To maintain the value of
15 are out. 15 the property, yes.
16 Q. I'm not talking -- All right. Let's leave 16 Q. And does -- what does lighting have to do
17 the words "day-to-day basis" out of this. All 17 with the value of the property?
18 right? We're just talking about going on the 18 A. Well, it -- Say, for instance, you want to
19 property and doing some sort of activity. 19 sell it. Then you'd rather -- you'd rather have
20 A. Right. 20 good lighting than -- than no lighting or poor
21 Q. You understand? 21 lighting.
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Would you agree with me that lighting is
23 Q. Okay. Would it surprise you to learn that 23 a -- is an aspect of security for people that are
24 they go out -- or that Susser goes out or, at the 24 outside pumping gas?
25 direction of Susser, someone goes out and replaces 25 A. Yeah, I -- I think so.
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1 Q. Does graffiti -- Does the -- Is graffiti 1 anything like, say, a fence being torn down or wire
2 being on a piece of property make it more or less 2 cutters being -- cut down the fen -- you know, cut a
3 likely that it's not well maintained? 3 hole in the fence where they can come in and out or
4 A. No, not necessarily. Again, there's no 4 something like that?
5 absolutes. If it's -- If you leave it up time and 5 A. I -- I don't think I heard the first part
6 time again, then that order of maintenance function 6 of your question. As a police officer what?
7 kind of diminishes a little bit. It -- It doesn't 7 Q. Well, you -- being in San Antonio as a
8 look -- doesn't look good. It -- It's not going to 8 police officer, I'm sure you -- you've seen various
9 attract customers. The customers may -- may be 9 abandoned buildings, correct?
10 leery. But an occasional graffiti signature, 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 probably not going to alarm most people. 11 Q. What are some physical aspects of those
12 Q. What about faded paint and things like 12 buildings that would make you believe that
13 that? I mean, like if a property's more worn down, 13 transients were using them for shelter or maybe
14 I mean, is it more or less likely that a crime's 14 going in and out of them, trespassing?
15 going to occur on it? 15 A. The most outstand -- or remarkable aspect
16 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 16 is that the neighbors will start calling, because
17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Or do you have any opinion 17 all of a sudden there's people in the neighborhood
18 about that? 18 that -- that they don't recognize or they were
19 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 19 loitering in the property or --
20 THE WITNESS: That's what's known 20 Q. What about physical aspects?
21 as the broken windows theory, that those kind of 21 A. Well, if the -- the fence is -- like you
22 things over the long period of time, if you 22 said, there's a hole cut in it and -- and the door's
23 allow them to contin -- if -- if you don't fix them 23 off the hinges or something and some peop -- you can
24 right away and you allow them to continue to -- to 24 tell people are coming in and out, that's one of the
25 degrade, then it may affect the rest of the area. 25 things that an officer would look at.
Page 179 Page 181
1 But the broken windows theory does 1 But primarily, probably an officer
2 not say that if you let a property go into disrepair 2 is going to patrol by. But until he starts getting
3 that everything else will. It just says that it -- 3 calls -- repeated calls, you know, unless it's --
4 it -- if it continues and it spreads, then it's 4 Q. It would basically just be like the broken
5 likely to breed more crime. 5 glass theory thing?
6 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. What about nearby 6 A. Yes. And -- And an officer knows to go by
7 abandoned buildings? 7 a vacant house or a vacant property more regularly
8 A. Again, I'd rather not have them, but if -- 8 than perhaps the other houses that are -- that are
9 if the owner secures it and there's no illegal 9 being lived in or businesses that are -- that are
10 activity or drug dealing or transients living there 10 open. They know to pay attention to those things.
11 or -- or that being a sanctuary for them, then it's 11 Q. What about like boards being broken loose
12 not really a problem. 12 on a window, like boards and stuff being moved over
13 But if -- if they're allowed to -- 13 and taken off so that people can ingress?
14 to continue their activities there, whether it's 14 A. Well, again, that's -- that's a sign
15 drug dealing or drinking, then you're probably going 15 that -- that an officer ought to pay attention to
16 to have some order maintenance issues, fights, 16 that and check with the neighbors to see if they've
17 disturbances, perhaps some thefts and so forth. 17 had any problems.
18 Q. I mean, as a police officer, what -- what 18 Q. Okay. What does barbwire on top of a fence
19 are certain things that -- or certain aspects, I 19 to you signi -- signify?
20 guess, to, like, a property that, say, was fenced up 20 A. An effort to be more secure, you know, to
21 or something that -- you know, as to whether 21 discourage people from attempting to jump over the
22 transients were coming in and out of it? 22 fence, just a better security.
23 A. You'd receive calls from the neighbors and 23 Q. So typically, would -- would you put a
24 so forth. You -- You can expect that to occur. 24 barbwire fence around a piece of property that --
25 Q. What about physical aspects? Is there 25 that was not in danger of people coming in and out
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1 of it? 1 Q. By a woman?
2 A. No, not necessarily. I think that lies in 2 A. Yes.
3 the thinking of the owner. Does he want to really 3 Q. That was on the Seawall. I saw that one.
4 protect his property? Is he thinking of turning 4 A. Right. And -- But there was nothing
5 around, selling it right away? So in that case, he 5 follow-up reporting that said that an officer went
6 may take those extra measures. If he has the 6 and actually verified that that -- that the child
7 money -- Certainly, a chain-linked fence with 7 had been sexually abused.
8 barbwire on top is more costly. He may -- may do 8 Another one, I believe, was a
9 that. 9 14-year-old child. And the other one was an adult.
10 If you're living in California and 10 But from what I gathered from the reports, he was
11 your property's in Galveston and you don't care one 11 mentally disabled -- or she was mentally disabled
12 way or the other, chances are you won't even put a 12 and was taken advantage of by a bus driver. But I
13 fence. So it -- it's just a matter of what, in your 13 did not see the actual police report that indicated
14 mind, is better security. 14 that yes, indeed, it did occur.
15 Q. So barbwire fence is basically meant to 15 Q. Okay. Do you know if Galveston is an
16 keep people out, right? 16 incident-based reporting or -- or not?
17 A. Yes. I think it's a good-faith effort -- 17 A. No. I believe that they are just operated
18 although the business -- or the place is vacant and 18 under the -- the Uniform Crime Reporting, which is
19 you may not be living in -- in Galveston, that 19 more generalized reporting.
20 you're making a good-faith effort to make -- keep 20 Q. Okay. Earlier you testified that you had
21 that building secured, because you're going to be, 21 experience in -- Who was the -- In your -- In your
22 again, far away. You don't have the day-to-day 22 curriculum vitae --
23 control of that place, and you're trying to make a 23 A. Yes, sir.
24 good-faith effort to keep it secured. 24 Q. Do you have a copy of that?
25 Q. So there's certain aspects you can perform 25 A. Yeah, I believe I do.
Page 183 Page 185
1 as a property owner with respect to security that 1 Q. You dealt with the sex crimes detail,
2 doesn't have to do with that day-to-day operation? 2 right?
3 A. Well, yeah. But I -- I think what you're 3 A. Yes, sir.
4 looking at is, you know, if I don't live close by, 4 Q. What are sex crimes?
5 I'm -- I'm probably not going to come by every day 5 A. Rapes, kidnap -- Under -- At the SAPD,
6 and see if anybody's been coming in. 6 kidnappings, rapes, child abuse, sexual assault of
7 If it -- Say there's a hole in the 7 children, physical abuse of children.
8 fence, if a board has been moved, it -- if you're 8 Q. Do you think the physical abuse of a child
9 far removed or not intending to be checking it every 9 is a nonviolent act?
10 day or every other day, then you might take those 10 A. No. It's a violent act.
11 ex -- extra security measures. 11 Q. Okay.
12 Q. In your opinion, you say that three alleged 12 A. I think -- Of course, you'd have to -- I'd
13 sexual assaults reported to police over a three-year 13 qualify my answer by saying, you know, what was the
14 period are infrequent an occurrence and 14 assault. Was it a hit on the rump? Or was it a
15 distinctively different in motive and modus 15 physical beating? Both would be categorized as
16 operandi -- 16 assaults, but one of them --
17 A. Ap -- Operandi, yes. 17 Q. So you think the molestation of a child
18 Q. -- than the case involving Mr. Meje. 18 would be nonviolent?
19 A. Yes, sir. 19 A. The molestation of a child? No. It's very
20 Q. So you found that there were three sexual 20 traumatic for that child.
21 assaults on the property? 21 Q. So would you consider that a violent crime?
22 A. They were reported. I was unable to verify 22 A. Yeah. It's categorized as a violent crime.
23 the -- by police report that it was actually sexual 23 It's -- But again, it's -- it's because of the
24 assault. I believe one was a 10-year-old, which was 24 impact on the child and perhaps the physical
25 reported as a sexual assault at an apartment or -- 25 injuries that may occur to the child in contrast to
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1 shooting, stabbing, clubbing. 1 with -- missing some reports and some reports were
2 Q. So would the molestation of a child be less 2 later subsequently provided to us and were reviewed
3 violent than an assault or -- 3 in much greater detail in preparation for trial in
4 A. No. No. We're just drawing distinctions, 4 this case.
5 because, for a layperson, attempted murder is a very 5 Those reports were reviewed by our
6 violent crime, but it's not the same modus operandi 6 expert in -- in detail, and the summary of those
7 or the -- the offense is not carried out in the same 7 reports I believe you do have. And you do have, or
8 way as the sexual abuse of a child. It's 8 at least you represented that you have all of the
9 certainly -- 9 police records that we do, correct?
10 Q. When you're talking about murder, do you 10 A. I -- I think I do, yes.
11 mean cold-blooded, "My purpose is to kill you for no 11 Q. Are you sure about that?
12 other reason" murder? 12 A. Well, I don't know until we -- we look.
13 A. Well, that or seriously injure someone, you 13 Q. Okay. In your review of these documents
14 know -- 14 and -- how many assaults occurred on the property?
15 Q. Or is it -- 15 A. I don't recall the exact figure.
16 A. -- break their jaw or -- 16 Q. So you can't provide any testimony one way
17 Q. -- in the carrying out of another crime, 17 or another about how many assaults happened on this
18 murder? 18 property?
19 A. Well, that would be capital murder. Murder 19 A. On the actual property, no, I don't -- I
20 is murder. I mean, if you murder somebody -- if you 20 don't remember.
21 kill somebody without justification, it's murder. 21 Q. Okay. Have you reviewed in detail the --
22 If you murder someone for -- in the course of 22 the reports and -- and jotted down the -- the
23 committing another felony or another crime, it may 23 numbers of crimes that occurred on the property?
24 be a capital murder. 24 A. Yes, I -- I believe I did. Maybe not --
25 Q. So in -- in this case, what kind of crime 25 not aggregate numbers. I just went by the report --
Page 187 Page 189
1 was it in the -- on the -- in the murder of 1 by re -- reported incident by reported incident. I
2 Abdul Meje on January 31st, 2008? 2 don't know if I'm making myself clear.
3 A. It was a very violent crime. 3 Q. Did you review any of the lesser crimes on
4 Q. And what was that classified as? 4 the property that were included within the records?
5 A. Capital murder. 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was it initially classified as? 6 Q. And in any of those lesser crimes on the
7 A. I'm not sure what you mean by -- 7 property, were any of those subsequently escalated
8 Q. What was it initially classified as? 8 to a greater crime?
9 A. I think it came out as an aggravated 9 A. No. I don't -- I don't really believe,
10 assault. 10 except for Mr. Meje's case, which I believe
11 Q. In the report? 11 originally was reported as an aggravated assault.
12 A. Yes. I think that's the way it was listed 12 Q. So in your review of the documents and --
13 in the -- by the dispatcher when it first came in. 13 and in your opinion and -- you're stating today or
14 Q. Is it true that something could be 14 testifying today that none of the lesser crimes
15 classified as a lesser crime and then be escalated 15 included within those reports was escalated to a
16 to a greater crime? 16 greater crime?
17 A. Oh, absolutely. 17 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
18 Q. And by that same token, it can -- and to be 18 I'm not going to let you -- You
19 fair, it can be classified as a greater crime and 19 want him to go through every one of those pages and
20 then scaled down to be a lesser crime? 20 then give an opinion? He -- He --
21 A. That's more often the case. It's very 21 MR. ADKINS: Well, he testified
22 frequent that they're downgraded rather than 22 that he did.
23 upgraded. 23 MR. ROGERS: He -- He has, but he's
24 Q. I can represent to you that the first 24 not going to sit here today and tell you that I --
25 list -- couple of lists that we prepared were 25 verbatim what he remembered from reviewing, you
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1 know, 400 pages of stuff. I mean, he's going to get 1 A. That would probably be an assault bodily
2 ready for trial, and he'll testify about the 2 injury. And again, depending on the -- on the
3 documents and what they say. 3 severity of the injury, that -- that necess -- would
4 And if you want to ask him page by 4 not necessarily --
5 page, ask him. But to say how many of those were 5 Q. What about being cut on the face?
6 upgraded or downgraded, that's unreasonable. 6 MR. ROGERS: Do you want to finish
7 MR. ADKINS: How is that 7 your answer?
8 unreasonable, Rick? 8 MR. ADKINS: No.
9 MR. ROGERS: Because look at all 9 THE WITNESS: Cut on the face --
10 those pages right there, and you're asking him to -- 10 And -- And again, it just depends on -- The one
11 to state from memory. 11 thing about the face is that it bleeds very, very
12 MR. ADKINS: Well, he's saying how 12 easily. The nose bleeds very, very easily, and it
13 many sexual assaults occurred on the property, how 13 looks horrible, but it may not -- it may or may not
14 many assaults occurred -- Did -- If he didn't review 14 reach the level of assault bodily injury. It may
15 the lesser crimes that were escalated, I want to 15 just be some --
16 know. 16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So, then, is being punched
17 MR. ROGERS: Okay. Ask away. I 17 in the face a -- a violent act?
18 just want you to know that, I mean, we will -- we 18 A. Well, again, it -- it depends how you're
19 will talk about all of those documents whenever they 19 categorizing it. It's not a violent act in terms of
20 get offered into -- into evidence. 20 the specificity of -- of this case in terms of being
21 MR. ADKINS: All right. 21 able to foresee a capital murder.
22 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the 22 Q. So -- Well -- Well, what I'm asking is: Do
23 question, please? 23 you not consider being punched in the face violent?
24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) In your review of the 24 A. Yeah. I mean, it -- for the receiver, it's
25 documents and the review of lesser crimes on the 25 always going to be. Just -- It's like the sexual
Page 191 Page 193
1 property or in the surrounding premises or area 1 assault of a child; it's not, you know, shooting
2 of -- of the premises, do you know with any 2 them and -- and raping them, but the trauma is very,
3 reasonable degree of certainty what number of crimes 3 very real.
4 were subsequently escalated from lesser crimes to 4 Q. And it's --
5 greater crimes -- 5 A. There's -- There's --
6 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. So it's violent?
7 Q. -- or violent crimes? 7 A. -- distinctions there.
8 A. No. 8 Q. Okay.
9 Q. Okay. And that didn't make up your -- any 9 A. There's distinctions there, is what I'm
10 part of your opinion? 10 trying to point out. And it's a violent -- If
11 A. I don't recall seeing any that were 11 somebody punches you in the face and just gives you
12 upgraded. 12 a redness on -- on the cheek, is that considered a
13 Q. Okay. And do you know how many assaults 13 violent crime? By most standards, the UCR, police
14 occurred on the property? 14 officers, no, it's just a simple assault. To you,
15 A. Simple assaults? No, sir. 15 is that a violent act? Oh, yeah.
16 Q. Is the simple assault a violent crime? 16 Q. So according to you and the UCR, being
17 A. Not normally regarded as a simple assault, 17 punched in the face is not a violent crime?
18 no, sir. 18 A. No. UCR is -- categorizes violent crimes
19 Q. Well, what's a simple assault? 19 as murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault.
20 A. Usually it's getting in somebody's face, 20 Q. Okay. Threatening somebody with a knife,
21 yelling and screaming, scaring them or perhaps 21 is that -- is that a violent crime?
22 slapping them or striking them where there's no 22 A. It -- Again, it depends on the frame of
23 residual evidence of having used a weapon or serious 23 mind of the victim.
24 bodily injury or something -- 24 Q. What about threatening somebody with a gun?
25 Q. What about being punched in the nose? 25 A. Again, it -- it depends on the frame of
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1 mind of the victim. If the victim says, "Yeah. He 1 with a gun?
2 pulled a gun on me, but he's an idiot. He didn't 2 A. It's a violent act, I guess, depending on
3 scare me one bit. I -- I just punched him in the 3 who you're asking. But it's what's the intent of
4 face, and he dropped it" -- 4 the shooter. If it was to shoot you, then it's
5 Q. So -- 5 probably an attempted murder with a weapon. But if
6 A. -- that's probably not going to be 6 he just meant to shoot out the lights of your car
7 categorized as a violent crime. 7 because you pissed him off --
8 Q. So as a police officer, if somebody walked 8 Q. What if he shot through the windows of your
9 up to you and said, "Hey, this guy just brandished a 9 car?
10 weapon, put it in my face and was yelling at me," 10 A. Again, that's -- that depends on whether
11 and pointed him out, you wouldn't arrest him? 11 the officer determines if the person was being shot
12 A. Oh, yeah, but not -- maybe not for an 12 at. Or if -- even if they weren't being shot at, if
13 assault. For unlawfully carrying a weapon, 13 it came perilously close to them, then you might
14 depending on whether the citizen wanted to -- 14 carry it as an aggravated assault even though the
15 Q. What if he beat him with a weapon? 15 intent was not to hurt the party.
16 A. Pardon? 16 I guess overall what I can say is,
17 Q. What if he beat him with a weapon? Would 17 there's no absolutes in police work. You really
18 you arrest him then? Or -- 18 have to look -- go look and investigate.
19 A. If he beat him? Yeah. That -- That would 19 Q. You say that only one aggravated assault
20 probab -- Depending on the injuries, I -- I would 20 occurred during a three-year period.
21 suspect that that -- that would fall into the 21 A. Yes, sir.
22 category of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. 22 Q. Okay. So you reviewed it with respect to
23 Q. What if he beat him -- What if he stabbed 23 aggravated assaults. And was that the only
24 somebody? Would that be -- 24 aggravated assault you found?
25 A. Aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Okay. Well, what if they just slashed them 1 Q. Out of all those records?
2 and didn't stab them? Would that -- Would that 2 A. Yes.
3 count? 3 Q. Okay. And you don't know how many assaults
4 A. Just the fact that they used the weapon to 4 occurred?
5 slash them would probably fit the category of 5 A. No. Simple assaults, no, or just --
6 aggravated assault. 6 Q. How about assaults of bodily injury? Do
7 Q. What do you consider a weapon? 7 you have any idea?
8 A. Anything that by its use or intended use 8 A. I want to say they changed at least one of
9 could cause death or serious bodily injury. 9 the aggravated assaults to assault bodily injury.
10 Q. Okay. Is shooting somebody -- somebody's 10 There -- I believe there was about three assault
11 car, is that violent -- 11 bodily injury.
12 A. It's not considered -- 12 Q. Okay. But you don't know with any degree
13 Q. -- with people in it? 13 of certainty?
14 A. Well, you'd have to make a determination to 14 A. Well, that's all I can remember.
15 the satisfaction of the district attorney that the 15 Q. Without actually going through and digging
16 person was being shot at. 16 through the documents?
17 Q. Well, I mean, if there's a bullet hole in 17 A. Pretty much, yes, sir.
18 the car? 18 Q. But you believe that there was only three
19 A. Yeah. It's -- It may be carried a criminal 19 assaults with bodily injuries on the property in --
20 mischief. 20 in all those documents, to the best of your ability?
21 Q. Okay. And would that be considered a 21 A. Assault bodily injury?
22 violent crime? 22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. No. Criminal mischief is generally not 23 A. Yes. Misdemeanor assaults, yes.
24 considered a violent crime. 24 Q. What's an aggravated assault?
25 Q. So it's not violent to shoot somebody's car 25 A. It's an assault with a deadly weapon or
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1 that results in injury that creates the possibility 1 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I'm just asking if you can
2 of death or does cause death -- 2 name one or two or as many categories as you can of
3 Q. Okay. 3 crimes or facts that fit the -- what you consider
4 A. -- or protracted loss of use of your limbs 4 modus operandi similar to the capital murder that
5 or some bodily function. 5 occurred on January 31st, 2008 while the actor was
6 Q. All right. And aggravated assault is, in 6 carrying out a robbery.
7 your opinion, a category that is dissimilar in modus 7 MS. KHARMATS: Objection; form.
8 operandi to what -- to what happened in this case? 8 THE WITNESS: Sure. Kidnap a
9 A. The one aggravated assault that was in the 9 little old lady out of the parking lot, steal her
10 area of the Citgo was substantially different than 10 money and take her out and kill her so there won't
11 what happened to Mr. Me -- Meje. 11 be any witnesses.
12 Q. If you had to generalize, is just 12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. So --
13 aggravated assault just totally different than -- in 13 A. Somebody -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
14 modus operandi? 14 Q. Go ahead. I'm listening.
15 A. In a capital murder? 15 A. You intend to rob somebody. You walk up to
16 Q. Uh-huh. 16 their car and intend to take their car, they resist,
17 A. It's substantially different, yes. 17 and you stab them, they die, drive off with the car.
18 Q. And what's modus operandi? 18 I -- I -- Is that what you're asking?
19 A. That's how you carry out the crime. 19 Q. Yes.
20 Q. Can you give me a definition? 20 A. Yeah. Well, that's pretty much it.
21 A. Essentially the method of operation. And 21 Q. So in your opinion, you would have to have
22 in law enforcement, it's how you execute a 22 a murder or several murders occur for it to be
23 particular crime -- criminal act. 23 foreseeable for murder to occur?
24 Q. Does modus operandi have a legal meaning? 24 A. No, not necessarily. Violent crimes in the
25 A. I didn't mean to use it in that context. 25 area that have to do with weapons, stabbings,
Page 199 Page 201
1 I'm not sure. 1 shootings, those kind of things, should give you an
2 Q. I mean, does it have to do with like mens 2 indication that there's a criminal el -- element --
3 rea and all that? 3 violent criminal element in the area and around the
4 A. No. No. It's -- It's just essentially 4 area you should -- you should be aware of.
5 that. And I think in law enforcement circles it's 5 Q. But in the three opinion -- or the three,
6 used because -- For instance, burglary, some guys 6 like, hypotheticals you just gave me, each one had
7 like to ring the doorbell, if nobody answers, break 7 to do with murder.
8 in the door. That's how they commit their burglary. 8 A. Well, that's what capital murder is.
9 Others like to go to the backyard, make sure there's 9 Q. Right. Well, when I said similar in modus
10 no dogs, break in through the back window. That's 10 operandi, what I'm wondering is if -- if there's
11 just the way they carry out their crimes, their 11 anything else besides murder that would be --
12 signature, more or less. 12 A. Well, yeah. If you go into a convenience
13 Q. What -- What would be similar in modus 13 store and you intend to rob somebody and they put up
14 operandi to what happened on January 31st, 2008? 14 a fight and you shoot them and they survive.
15 A. What would be similar? 15 Q. Okay. So it would have to do with them
16 Q. Yeah. 16 being shot to be similar in --
17 A. I'm not sure I understand what -- 17 A. Well, you could stab them --
18 MS. KHARMATS: Objection; form. 18 Q. -- modus operandi?
19 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Can you give me an example 19 A. -- try to strangle them, any of those. If
20 of -- of any crime that would be similar in modus 20 your intent was to kill them to get away and to
21 operandi to capital murder? 21 steal that money, then just by sheer -- If you think
22 MS. KHARMATS: Objection; form. 22 you murdered them and you leave but they survive.
23 THE WITNESS: A different crime, 23 Q. So to be similar in modus operandi, in your
24 you're talking about? Or just the way it's carried 24 opinion, it would have to do with the actor or the
25 out? 25 criminal having the intent to kill?
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1 A. No, not necessarily. I mean, if you have 1 relatively low frequency of violent crime." What do
2 drive-by shootings, if you have gang activity in 2 you base that opinion on?
3 which there's shots fired and people get shot and 3 A. Those documents that you provided and then
4 stabbed in your area, may not have to do with 4 my review of the police reports.
5 robbery, may be trying to steal drugs or something 5 Q. What documents are you referring to?
6 along those lines; two winos who get into a fight 6 A. The index of violent crimes and the summary
7 and so drunk that one of them tries to kill the 7 of violent crimes and the reports that go with those
8 other, doesn't, and they're occurring on your 8 cases.
9 property or in the premises, that distinctly tells 9 Q. What about reports that fall outside that
10 you, "We've had numerous incidents involving people 10 original index?
11 getting shot, people getting stabbed, people getting 11 A. I don't recall seeing those except for
12 strangled in and around my area. I really need to 12 recently, the ones that we talked about this morning
13 step up security." 13 in Warren's 64.
14 Q. Okay. So each one of those, to be similar 14 Q. Okay. So if they weren't in the index,
15 in modus operandi, has to be the -- the intent or 15 then you didn't review them?
16 possibility of -- of death? 16 A. Yeah. No. I did, but -- but not all of
17 A. Maybe I'm -- I'm doing a poor job of -- 17 them.
18 Q. I'm just trying to -- I'm trying to -- 18 Q. Okay. So you've only partially reviewed
19 A. -- explaining to you. 19 all the reports?
20 Q. I'm just trying to understand what you're 20 A. This document that -- Exhibit 74, Ortiz,
21 saying. 21 I -- I was not able to find some of the cases.
22 A. Modus operandi is just the way you carry 22 Q. Okay. Which ones were you not able to
23 out your crime. 23 find? I believe I -- I wanted you to highlight
24 Q. Uh-huh. 24 those. Oh, I'm sorry.
25 A. In this particular case, it was a capital 25 A. And -- And I told you again this morning I
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1 murder. Some -- Other people may carry out capital 1 don't know off of my head which ones I didn't. I
2 murders but in a different way, and that doesn't 2 can tell you that none of the reports here are about
3 mean that you have to have capital murders -- four 3 violent crimes except for the pizza robber, which
4 or five capital murders before your light comes on 4 I -- I found, I already was aware of, but none of
5 and says, "We need to do something about security." 5 them pertain to violent crimes.
6 But if there's people getting shot, 6 Q. And you're talking about classification,
7 you know, around the corner or another convenience 7 right?
8 store clerk down the road was robbed and -- and 8 A. I'm talking about the document you provided
9 stabbed and -- and perhaps one of the customers shot 9 that was --
10 and it starts occurring in fairly recent times and 10 Q. No. I mean, in your -- in your -- when you
11 with an increase in frequency, then the antennas go 11 say "violent crimes," are you talking about -- Like
12 up that you need to -- to take those measures. 12 an assault, in your eyes, isn't violent, correct?
13 Q. Have you reviewed any of the newspaper 13 A. Well, again, is an assault a violent crime?
14 articles regarding the crimes in the area? 14 Yes, it can be categorized as such. Is it -- For
15 A. No. 15 the purposes of foreseeability in this particular
16 Q. If something was in the newspaper regarding 16 case, I don't believe so.
17 crime -- crimes occurring of similar modus operandi, 17 Q. So right here, "Wife of Ernie Williams,
18 would you think it was important to review that in 18 beat, bruising on face," would -- that wouldn't be
19 providing your opinion? 19 violent to you?
20 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 20 A. Well, that's a domestic violence case, but
21 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't know. 21 certainly no similarity at all.
22 Again, you'd be -- you're asking me to make a 22 Q. Well, I mean, I was just asking you about
23 determination of something I -- I haven't seen. 23 violence.
24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) You say in your opinion, 24 A. Right. And I'm -- And I'm trying to answer
25 "The area around 502 [sic] Seawall Boulevard had a 25 your question in that regard in that these were not
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1 violent crimes that would lead a reasonably prudent 1 you and I get into a fight over a parking spot in
2 person to foresee what may have happened to 2 the parking lot that -- that you're going to run off
3 Mr. Meje. 3 and -- and kill a convenience store clerk? Of
4 Q. And why do you believe that? 4 course not.
5 A. Because they are not similar, and some of 5 Q. And that opinion that you have, is that
6 them are almost entirely different than what 6 based on any studies or statistics that you've read?
7 happened to Mr. Meje. 7 A. I -- In my vast amount of experience, both
8 Q. What -- What -- How do you come to your 8 as a street cop and when we -- For five years, I was
9 opinion about what's different and what's not 9 in charge of the homicide unit, which handles all
10 different? Like what's your -- what's your rule 10 degrees of assaults.
11 with respect to how -- how is something different 11 Q. All right. Let's see. It says, "Given the
12 and not different? 12 large concentration of businesses, residents,
13 A. Well, simple assaults are so different that 13 apartment buildings, tourists and local citizens in
14 I don't think -- and they're not publicized. As a 14 the area, five robberies over a three-year period
15 matter of fact, most simple assaults don't even go 15 are negligible."
16 reported. It's what the law enforcement calls 16 A. Yes, sir.
17 mutual combat. 17 Q. Are the five rob -- Where -- Where are the
18 Q. Uh-huh. 18 five robberies that you're -- you're talking about?
19 A. I know Mr. Warren said that if two people 19 A. Two were at the same Subway sandwich shop,
20 fight, one of them is -- gets assaulted. That's not 20 and I believe they were carried out by the same
21 accurate. If two people agree to fight and one of 21 individuals. One of them was at Radio Shack.
22 them loses, that's not assault. So most of them 22 Q. Okay.
23 don't even get reported. 23 A. One of them was a Pizza Hut deliveryman who
24 And I'm sure you've seen, you know, 24 got robbed out on the street, and one was at a --
25 spur-of-the-moment fights that occur in a parking 25 Fort Crockett Apartments, I believe.
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1 lot and the two combatants leave and you leave and 1 Q. And again, the businesses you're talking
2 nothing ever gets reported. So generally, simple 2 about are the ones we referred to earlier, correct?
3 assaults or assault bodily injuries are not, to me, 3 A. Yes, sir. Uh-huh.
4 sufficiently like a capital murder case, especially 4 Q. Okay. And you're unaware that those
5 the one that happened to Mr. Meje, to say that, one, 5 businesses were open in -- in the early morning
6 they're going to receive the publicity and, two, 6 hours of January 31st, 2008, correct?
7 that they are similar in the way they were carried 7 A. I'm not aware that they were, no, sir.
8 out or that would be -- 8 Q. And the residents that you're speaking of,
9 Q. What about two clerks fight -- or a clerk 9 those are the residents that you viewed on
10 fighting with a customer? 10 January 13th, 2011, correct?
11 A. That's a simple assault or mutual combat. 11 A. Yes, sir.
12 I think the -- the one time the officer -- 12 Q. And you have -- And you never reviewed
13 Q. That's not violent? Or -- 13 the -- or saw any pictures of the residents --
14 A. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that 14 residences in 2008, correct?
15 all -- all of us -- every -- everybody, including a 15 A. No, sir.
16 toddler, in the heat of passion may kick you or slap 16 Q. What about apartment buildings? What
17 you, but certainly none of us are going to carry a 17 apartment buildings are you familiar with around
18 gun to resolve those issues or a knife. There -- 18 that area?
19 There's a big difference. 19 A. The Fort Crockett Apartments, number one.
20 So in the -- in the heat of the 20 I believe we saw a couple more in our drive through
21 moment, you know, you're going to have an 21 that whole area.
22 altercation with someone, a physical fight. Is it 22 Q. And it's -- Specifically, with respect to
23 violent? Again, you're asking the same question. 23 the Fort Crockett Apartments, were there any crimes
24 Yeah. It depends on who's looking at it. 24 at the Fort Crockett Apartments that you're aware
25 Is that an indication that -- Could 25 of?
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1 A. One of the robberies occurred there in the 1 A. Correct.
2 parking lot. I believe there was some domestic 2 Q. But there were -- But people that have been
3 violence, some attempted suicide calls, and that's 3 assaulted and injured, those don't count?
4 all I remember right now. 4 A. In terms of what?
5 Q. Were there people shooting guns at the 5 Q. In terms of -- of violent crimes being
6 apartments? 6 foreseeable.
7 A. Yes. I believe there were some kids 7 A. The people that have been assaulted and
8 shooting BB guns at birds. 8 injured?
9 Q. What about tourists? Are you familiar with 9 Q. Uh-huh. Like child -- child abuse victims
10 the -- the tourists in the area on January the 31st, 10 and -- those -- those don't count, right, as
11 2008? 11 injured -- peop -- peop -- the perpetrator injured
12 A. No, sir. 12 somebody?
13 Q. Have you gone out and interviewed any local 13 A. Of course they count, if that's what
14 citizens in the area? 14 happened.
15 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Okay. You say, "It is my opinion the
16 Q. Okay. What's the traditional fashion of 16 infrequency of robberies in the area and the absence
17 robberies? 17 of violent acts in furtherance of robberies makes
18 A. Where you go in, scare the heck out of the 18 them substantially different than the one resulting
19 person, take their money and get the heck out. 19 in the tragic death of Mr. Meje."
20 Q. You say it's the employee -- Let's see -- 20 A. Yes, sir.
21 confronting the employee, instilling fear, stealing 21 Q. Okay. So what do you mean by that?
22 the money and fleeing. 22 A. That five robberies over a three-year
23 A. Yes, sir. 23 period is, I don't think, a sufficient number of
24 Q. Confronting the employee, what do you mean 24 robberies to say, "Hey, you know, we really have a
25 by that? 25 problem," and especially given, like I said, the
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1 A. That's the initial contact where you just 1 number of tourists and citizens and so forth.
2 try to scare the heck out of them. 2 And so there's relatively few
3 Q. Okay. What -- Instilling fear, is that 3 robberies in the three-year period. That's, as I
4 subjective with respect to the person that's being 4 mentioned earlier, negligible.
5 in -- 5 Q. So there has to be both theft and violence
6 A. No. 6 together for it to be similar?
7 Q. -- fear? 7 A. Not necessarily. A robbery's a robbery.
8 A. In a robbery, that's what the robber wants 8 Q. Well, like, you're just saying -- Or
9 to do. He wants to instill fear so you don't 9 basically, a theft isn't indicative of a robber --
10 resist. 10 or that robberies will occur, right? Is that what
11 Q. So it has to do with the intent of 11 you're saying?
12 instilling fear? 12 A. No. All I'm saying is that there was five
13 A. Well, that's the purpose. 13 robberies. And I'm sorry if I missed your question.
14 Q. Okay. And stealing the money, that has to 14 Q. Well, I mean, they have to be together.
15 do with stealing money, obviously? 15 Like if you have a whole bunch of thefts and then
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 you have a whole bunch of assaults, the fact that
17 Q. And fleeing as quickly as possible? 17 they're not together like, you know, in a robbery,
18 A. Yes, sir. 18 like, you know, stealing and -- and committing a
19 Q. So the traditional fashion of robbery would 19 violent act in the furtherance of stealing, that
20 be confronting the -- the employee or person, 20 makes them -- these -- each one of these instances
21 instilling fear, stealing and fleeing? 21 significantly dissimilar to what occurred. Is that
22 A. Yes, sir. 22 what you're saying?
23 Q. You say, "The perpetrators did not injure 23 A. They're substantially different crimes.
24 or kill anyone during the commission of the 24 Q. Okay. So you -- you can't have one without
25 robberies." 25 the other. You've got to have violence and theft,
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1 right? 1 off, that's theft, right?
2 A. To make them substantially alike, yes. 2 A. That's an altogether different crime.
3 Q. Okay. So without -- So it's your opinion 3 If -- If you just take my wallet without a weapon?
4 that theft alone does not increase the 4 Q. Yeah. Or like I -- if somebody steals
5 foreseeability of robbery and assault alone does not 5 somebody's purse or somebody steals some beer --
6 increase the foreseeability of robbery? 6 A. Yeah. That -- That's altogether --
7 A. I think that's a pretty fair statement. 7 Q. -- and then runs off?
8 More often than not, theft, you're not even going to 8 A. That's altogether a different category of
9 be aware that the things were stolen. That's the 9 crime. It's under theft, but it's theft from
10 very nature of theft. 10 person, which is a much higher punishment.
11 Q. What about somebody walking in with beer 11 Q. Okay.
12 and running out of the store -- 12 A. Theft -- Theft by nature is secretive
13 A. Sometimes you see it. The few times that 13 taking of property. Now, sometimes, like you
14 you do see it, you usually have the clerk chasing 14 mentioned in a beer run, you find out when the guy
15 them or yelling at them. But for the most part, 15 runs off. But for the most part, when they're
16 they walk out the door and you don't know until you 16 stealing beer or candies or gum, you don't know that
17 do your inventory. 17 they're stealing. You won't find out until later
18 Q. So there you have stealing and fleeing, but 18 when you take inventory and you say, "Hey, how come
19 you don't have the assault -- or the -- the -- the 19 we're $2,000 short of beer and" --
20 instilling of fear necessary to be similar, correct? 20 Q. So -- So you have to have both, right?
21 A. Well, robbery by the -- by its very nature, 21 A. I'm sorry?
22 the definition is placing somebody in fear of death 22 Q. The theft and the -- and the -- the
23 or serious bodily injury. 23 physical act of violence or the threat, right, for
24 Q. And then the other part of it is that you 24 it to be significantly similar to the crime in
25 do have the instilling of fear but you don't have 25 question?
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1 the -- the theft part, right? 1 A. We've gone so around and around the
2 A. In -- In what? You went from -- 2 subject, I -- I don't even really know what you're
3 Q. Yeah. 3 talking about anymore.
4 A. -- shoplifting to -- 4 Q. Okay.
5 Q. Right. 5 MR. ROGERS: Glad there's somebody
6 A. -- something else. 6 else.
7 Q. From -- From assault to -- to theft. 7 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) You say, "In my opinion,
8 There's two different things, and they're -- If you 8 the area around 4502 Seawall had a relatively low
9 put them together, you have assault and theft. It's 9 frequency of violent crimes."
10 a robbery, right? 10 A. Yes, sir.
11 A. No. No. I wouldn't go that far. That -- 11 Q. And in -- in considering the frequency,
12 That's too general. 12 you're not considering assaults, nor are you
13 Q. Okay. So if -- 13 considering theft, correct?
14 A. A robbery is -- 14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. -- if I walked up to you with -- with a 15 Q. "My" -- "It's also my opinion that violent
16 knife, that's an assault, right? I've threatened 16 crimes actually committed in Grid 68, which includes
17 you and you're in fear for your life? 17 the Citgo Stop, consisted of criminal acts
18 A. Yes. 18 substantially, if not totally different than the one
19 Q. Okay. And if I walked up to you with a 19 resulting in the death of Mr. Meje."
20 knife and take your wallet and steal your wallet, 20 A. That's correct.
21 that's robbery, correct? 21 Q. So robberies are totally different?
22 A. Correct. 22 A. Robberies are totally different --
23 Q. Okay. If I walked up to you and take your 23 substantially different than the -- than the
24 wallet out of your pocket and run and don't instill 24 incident involving Mr. Meje.
25 fear, you just -- I just grab your wallet and take 25 Q. So somebody being murdered in -- while
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1 somebody's committing the act of robbery is 1 there's low gang activity in that area?
2 substantially different than robbery resulting in 2 A. In the three years' worth of reports, there
3 the death of somebody being robbed? 3 was no report of gang activity.
4 A. Well, there's more aspects to the capital 4 Q. And how would gang activity be reported?
5 murder of Mr. Meje. As tragic as it was, 5 A. Mentioned in the reports as part of an
6 Mr. Stevens clearly, in the video, is a very, very 6 enterprise.
7 violent person, had the opportunity to leave, came 7 Q. Is --
8 back, killed him. 8 A. I'm sorry.
9 That is -- That doesn't happen 9 Q. Give me an example of a report that would
10 very -- very often. As much as we see it on TV, the 10 mention gang activity.
11 only reason we do see it on TV is because it doesn't 11 A. Because, generally speaking, it -- it --
12 happen that often. Otherwise, it wouldn't be 12 when you're reporting a -- a violent crime that's
13 newsworthy. 13 gang-related, that's the first thing -- one of the
14 Q. So -- So in other words -- I mean, I'm just 14 first things you put on your report, because there's
15 trying to get to what you're saying. I mean, you're 15 always intelligence data on who the gang members
16 saying that the act of robbery is totally different 16 are, what their tattoos are, who they hang around
17 than somebody getting murdered during the commission 17 with, how you can get ahold of them, so that's
18 of a robbery, correct? 18 pretty routine police work.
19 A. See, but I didn't say that. You did. I 19 Q. So you're not saying that -- that the
20 said it's substantially different. 20 police just generally make reports about, "Hey, I
21 Q. Okay. So it's substantially different? 21 saw some gang members"?
22 A. Right. 22 A. Yes. That's -- That's how we get our
23 Q. Okay. 23 intelligence data.
24 A. Because, traditionally, people go in, rob 24 Q. Okay. Did you -- In your interview with --
25 and leave and want to leave in a hurry and don't 25 Was it Detective Paige -- did he mention anything
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1 want to be there very long. If -- If the clerk 1 about gangs?
2 would give them the money -- The sooner, the 2 A. No, he did not. He said it was a very safe
3 better -- they'll be out of there. In this 3 area.
4 particular case, it was a violent altercation, 4 Q. But did he mention anything specifically
5 physical altercation. Stevens had every opportunity 5 about gangs?
6 to leave, and he didn't, and -- and you didn't see 6 A. He did not mention gang activity.
7 any of that in the other robberies. 7 Q. Did you talk about gang activity?
8 Q. Did you -- Were you there during those 8 A. Yes, we did.
9 robberies? 9 Q. And what did he say?
10 A. Was I there? 10 A. He -- He said, "Hey, you know, this was
11 Q. Yeah. 11 very, very surprising that this happened to Mr. Meje
12 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 12 because that's a relatively safe area and there's
13 THE WITNESS: No. I don't think 13 none of the -- nothing for them to indicate that
14 so. 14 that's what was" --
15 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And what do you base your 15 MR. ADKINS: Objection;
16 opinion on that they're -- 16 nonresponsive.
17 A. On reading all of the reports. 17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I -- What did he say with
18 Q. -- totally different? "In terms of a 18 respect to gang activity specifically?
19 rele" -- "relevantly [sic] low frequency of violent 19 A. I think we asked him specifically or he
20 crimes in and around this area, the most remarkable 20 volunteered that there was nothing for them to -- It
21 statistic is the absence of murders, shootings or 21 was in the same context of the policemen always
22 gang activity at the Citgo Stop or surrounding 22 being there at that Citgo, that --
23 area." 23 Q. Did y'all have a conversation about gang
24 A. Uh-huh. 24 activity in that area at all? Or did you have a
25 Q. What do you base your opinion on that 25 conversation about the crime as it related to gang
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1 activity? 1 enforcement in the area?
2 A. Ess -- Essentially, Detective Paige, we 2 A. Well, if you talk about gang enforcement --
3 told him why we were there, and he just started 3 Q. No.
4 talking. We didn't really interview him. I asked 4 A. -- you're talking about gang activity.
5 him a couple of questions on what certain things 5 Q. Out -- Outside of this.
6 meant on the police report, but he just pretty much 6 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No. No. No.
7 did all the talking. 7 Just my conversation with Detective Paige.
8 Q. So did he specifically say there was a lack 8 Q. Okay. So you don't know the names of the
9 of gang activity or that there was gang activity -- 9 street gangs in that area, do you?
10 A. If memory serves me correctly -- 10 A. No.
11 Q. -- in the area? 11 Q. Okay. Do you -- Okay. That's what I was
12 A. -- he mentioned something to the fact that 12 trying to ask you. So really, when you say, "The
13 there's -- that the area's relatively safe, there's 13 most re" -- "remarkable statistic is the absence of
14 no gang activity or nothing for us to suspect that 14 gang activity in the surrounding area," you don't
15 that would happen. I mean, it was a very -- a big 15 have anything to support that opinion, do you?
16 surprise to him. 16 A. Yes, I do, and it's not isolated to gang
17 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 17 activity. Those -- Those --
18 nonresponsive. 18 Q. Well, that's one of the things you list,
19 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So did you talk about gang 19 correct?
20 enforcement? 20 A. But it's out of context, Counselor.
21 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 21 Q. It says, "In terms of the relatively low
22 THE WITNESS: No. Gang 22 frequency" -- "the relatively low frequency of
23 enforcement, no. 23 violent crimes in and around the area, most" -- "the
24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. So you had no 24 most remarkable statistic is the absence of murders,
25 conversations about gang enforcement? 25 shootings or gang activity at the Citgo" -- "at the
Page 223 Page 225
1 A. Gang enforcement, no. 1 Citgo Stop and the surrounding area."
2 Q. Okay. Did y'all talk about the overall 2 A. Correct.
3 gang picture? 3 Q. So you're talking about the statistic of
4 A. No, sir. 4 gang activity in the surrounding area?
5 Q. Is there anything in your re -- in -- in 5 A. No, sir.
6 the records that you reviewed that talks about the 6 Q. You're not talking about the statistic of
7 overall gang picture? 7 gang activity in the surrounding area?
8 A. No, sir. 8 A. I'm talking about -- And you read it
9 Q. Or gang enforcement in the area? 9 yourself -- relatively low frequency of violent
10 A. No. 10 crimes in and around this area. The most remarkable
11 Q. So when it comes to trial, are you going to 11 statistic is the absence of murders, shootings or
12 offer an opinion as to gang enforcement in this 12 gang activity.
13 area? 13 Q. Okay. So you don't have any statistics
14 A. If you ask me where I got the information, 14 about gang activity in the area?
15 I'm going to tell you that Mr. Me -- that 15 A. No, sir.
16 Detective Paige told me that that was a surprise to 16 Q. Okay. Have you came up with any statistics
17 them because one of the aspects that was missing was 17 about murders in the area?
18 gang activity. 18 A. Just over the three-year period.
19 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 19 Q. And what three-year period is that?
20 nonresponsive. 20 A. 2005 to 2008.
21 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) In this particular crime, 21 Q. And is that only in the records that you
22 you -- You talked about this particular crime as it 22 reviewed here?
23 relates to gang activity, correct? 23 A. Yes.
24 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you haven't reviewed any newspaper
25 Q. Okay. But you did not talk about gang 25 articles about murders in the area, have you?
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1 A. No, sir. 1 Q. -- some -- some information and --
2 Q. Okay. Have you reviewed any newspaper 2 A. Correct.
3 articles about shootings in the area? 3 Q. -- some knowledge?
4 A. I haven't reviewed any newspaper articles. 4 A. Yes. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. Have you reviewed any crime reports 5 Q. Okay. Are you aware if anybody at Susser
6 about shootings in the area? 6 or Stripes reviewed or -- or subscribed to the
7 A. The police reports. 7 Galveston Daily -- Is it the -- Galveston Daily
8 Q. Okay. Besides those. 8 News?
9 A. No, sir. 9 A. No, sir. I'm not aware of that.
10 Q. Okay. Did you do any independent analysis 10 Q. Are you aware of any e-mail correspondence
11 or study of -- besides what was given to you by 11 between the Susser and Stripes employees with
12 counsel, about the gang activity in the area? 12 respect to a criminal act that occurred and re --
13 A. No, sir. 13 was reported in the Galveston Daily News?
14 Q. Have you done any independent reporting 14 A. Amongst each other, you mean? No, sir.
15 or -- or statistical analysis with respect to the 15 Q. You say the direct cause of Mr. Meje's
16 frequency of murders in the area outside the 16 death was the -- the intentional, illegal and
17 documents that counsel gave you? 17 unpredictable actions of Robert V. Stevens.
18 A. No, sir. 18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Have you done any outside study or gathered 19 Q. What makes his act unpredictable?
20 any statistics or performed any analysis on the 20 A. Well, obviously, if you would -- could have
21 amount of shootings in the area outside the 21 predicted it, you might have tried to prevent it.
22 documents that counsel gave you? 22 The police may have intervened.
23 A. No, sir. 23 Q. What would make an act such as this
24 Q. What would give somebody knowledge and 24 predictable?
25 information of criminal activity on a premises? 25 A. Well, talking to some of the other -- his
Page 227 Page 229
1 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 1 cohorts and them talking to somebody else who would
2 THE WITNESS: What would give 2 provide that information to police. But these
3 somebody information? 3 people were traveling around, living on the streets.
4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Knowledge or information. 4 That makes it very, very difficult to predict what
5 A. Television, radio, internet, talking to 5 their actions are going to be next.
6 other people. 6 Q. And again, where did you get that
7 Q. What about newspapers? 7 information about the streets?
8 A. Newspapers. 8 A. Living on the street? It's either from the
9 Q. Would you agree with me that newspapers are 9 reports or from Detective Paige.
10 a source of knowledge and information. 10 Q. Okay. If it wasn't in the reports, would
11 A. To a certain degree. I -- That's not a 11 it be -- would -- would you be able to say that it
12 reliable format to -- They're going to -- They're 12 was from the interview with Detective Paige?
13 going to spectacularize their reporting, so... 13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Would -- Would you agree with me at least 14 Q. Okay. And again, what would make an act
15 that people obtain information from a newspaper? 15 such as this predictable? You said, I believe, that
16 A. I would agree that they get a lot of 16 somebody that was with him would have to tell
17 misinformation. When an incident like this case 17 somebody that they were going to do it to make it
18 happens and all these documents that go into an 18 predictable.
19 investigation and you only get a four- or 19 A. That -- That would be one way. If
20 five-paragraph synopsis, you're missing a lot of 20 they were -- When they were planning it and somebody
21 information. 21 backed out or decided they didn't want to be
22 Q. But you would agree with me -- 22 involved, that would be one way to predict it. But
23 A. You're getting some. 23 it's very unpredictable. That's why I -- I wrote it
24 Q. -- that it's some -- 24 that way.
25 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Do you believe that -- that crimes in
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1 general are unpredictable? 1 the -- one of the things that we do is, we keep a
2 A. To a certain degree, yes. I mean, 2 category of the kind of crime, modus operandi, when
3 you can -- you can say crime is going to happen. 3 it occurred, whether it's a business, personal, a
4 It's always going to happen. It can happen to any 4 residence. We keep all that data. And when we see
5 of us anywhere at any time. But to be able to say 5 a pattern evolving, then we deploy our resources to
6 exactly when and how it's going to be carried out is 6 that area.
7 almost impossible. 7 Sometimes we get informants that
8 Q. So it's not only always unpredictable, it's 8 say, "Hey, you know, we know this guy's going to
9 nearly -- or it is impossible to predict crimes? 9 knock off a bank." They're still planning it, but
10 A. Again, anybody can say, "Yeah. A 10 they're thinking it's this bank or this bank, and
11 crime's going to happen within the next hour in 11 so, you know, we -- we deploy resources in that
12 San Antonio," but very few people can tell you that 12 area. Sometimes it works, and a lot of times it
13 it's going to be at this location and it's going to 13 doesn't.
14 be a violent crime or a nonviolent crime. You just 14 But you have to commit a lot of
15 don't know. 15 time and resources to that particular -- Even with
16 Q. So it's your opinion that nothing makes 16 all of the resources we have, it's not -- you can't
17 these types of violent crimes or murders in the act 17 depend on this preventing all of these crimes.
18 of committing robbery predictable? 18 Q. And it -- I'm sorry. I just -- You said,
19 A. No. That's not what I'm saying. Police 19 like, data and statistics or patterns and --
20 departments have tremendous resources. The larger 20 Where -- Where are you getting that from?
21 the police department, the more resources. We can 21 A. Every police report with all that
22 predict, more or less, where robberies are going to 22 information that's on a police report is maintained
23 occur in San Antonio, where burglary of vehicles, 23 in the computer file.
24 where assaults are going to happen. 24 Q. Uh-huh.
25 We can predict even within a couple 25 A. And we have people -- research and planning
Page 231 Page 233
1 of weeks or a few days, but that's a lot of time. 1 people that put all that data together to tell you,
2 We don't know exactly when. And sometimes -- And 2 "Hey, all of a sudden, here on Mulberry, between
3 some of our strategies involve placing a large 3 Broadway and -- and 281, we've had burglaries.
4 amount of officers sometimes in uniforms, sometimes 4 They're breaking in through the roof between 3:00
5 in plain clothes, sometimes a combination of both 5 and 5:00 in the morning, and they're using heavy
6 because we anticipate that a robbery or a burglary 6 machinery. This is how they're getting in, and it's
7 or -- or a major theft is going to occur in a 7 usually happening between Thursday and Friday
8 certain area because there may be some patterns 8 afternoon -- Thursday morning, Friday afternoon. We
9 or -- or we have that -- that data, we have 9 believe it's overnight." We use all that data to
10 tremendous resources to gather data. 10 deploy our resources, especially when there's a
11 But for the layman, the typical 11 pattern.
12 store shop owner or the typical shoe salesmen, they 12 Q. What about not heavy machinery? What about
13 don't have those kinds of resources. 13 murder? And what about robbery?
14 Q. So it's your opinion that it's -- crimes 14 A. Well, that's the difficult thing about
15 such as this cannot be predictable by store owners? 15 murder, is that it's almost impossible to prevent.
16 A. Not with any degree of certainty, no, sir. 16 Q. So --
17 It's -- That's the job of the police. And if the 17 A. Robberies, to a greater degree, but not a
18 police had a pattern or had data or intelligence and 18 very high degree, you can prevent and you can see a
19 the resources to predict that -- that they would -- 19 pattern.
20 could happen, they may have deployed resources in 20 Q. What are -- What are some things that
21 this area. But you really have to depend on police 21 would -- that you could do to -- Or what -- what
22 officers. 22 would you look at to discover a pattern with respect
23 Q. What type of data would make it 23 to robberies?
24 predictable? 24 A. Well, here -- here's the key: In terms of
25 A. You can -- Police departments, one of 25 modus operandi, burglars -- or robbers, rather, and
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1 criminals in general are like anybody else. You get 1 Rick.
2 into a routine, and that routine works, so you just 2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Can you identify what's
3 do it over and over again. You generally stay close 3 been marked as Exhibit 90?
4 to your house because you know the area. 4 A. Yes. It's an article by the FBI, "Success
5 And if breaking in through a rear 5 in Gang Enforcement."
6 window of a shoe shop works, then you're probably 6 Q. And what does it say that they do?
7 going to try to hit shoe shops because that's worked 7 A. What -- Essentially what I just said.
8 for you and that's how you establish patterns. 8 Q. Can you read it, please?
9 Murder is pretty much a crime of 9 A. Identifying past crimes, gathering and
10 passion that happens without any prior planning or 10 analyzing existing intelligence on the gangs and its
11 without -- except in rare instances, without any 11 leaders, proactively developing human sources from
12 prior decision to do it. It's usually a crime in -- 12 different segments of the community.
13 in the heat of the moment, so they're very, very 13 Q. I'm sorry. Human what?
14 difficult to predict and almost impossible to 14 A. Human sources, informants. Developing an
15 prevent. 15 investigative -- Developing an investigative plan to
16 Q. How would you work against violent gangs, 16 exploit a gang's weaknesses, in other words, its
17 for instance? 17 communication network and informants.
18 A. How -- 18 Using all investigative tools
19 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 19 available, both overt, in other words, interviews,
20 THE WITNESS: How would you do what 20 interrogations, subpoenas, plea agreements; and
21 now? 21 covert, in other words, physical, electronic
22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Like what are some steps 22 surveillance, confidential informants, undercover
23 that you would do to -- to work against violent 23 operations. Basically what I just talked about.
24 gangs? 24 Q. Okay. And, yeah, you didn't talk about
25 A. When they -- you identify them and know 25 that with Detective Paige, did you?
Page 235 Page 237
1 that they're working -- interacting with each other, 1 A. No, sir.
2 then -- then -- There's no crime of -- of being a 2 Q. Okay.
3 gang member or there's no crime called gang 3 A. For the record, Counselor, that's exactly
4 activity. 4 what I did when I was the head of the intelligence
5 But if they engage in robberies and 5 unit for two years.
6 although you only catch one but you know that 6 Q. But FBI does do that, right?
7 they're working in concert, you hit them with 7 A. Yeah, but they work with us.
8 organized crime statutes. That's been one of the 8 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the NFPA 730?
9 most effective ways. 9 A. Not by that title.
10 Q. How does the FBI do it? 10 Q. It's entitled, "Guide for Premises
11 A. The FBI doesn't really handle those kind of 11 Security."
12 things. They don't even handle bank robberies 12 A. No, sir.
13 anymore. 13 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a book
14 MR. ADKINS: Let's see. I'd like 14 entitled, "Armed Robbers and Their Crimes," by
15 to mark -- What's our exhibit number? 15 Rosemary Erickson?
16 THE WITNESS: But essentially, with 16 A. No.
17 gangs -- I'm sorry. 17 Q. Are you familiar with the NACS?
18 THE COURT REPORTER: 90. 18 A. National Association of Convenience Stores?
19 MR. ADKINS: 90? I'd like to have 19 Q. Yes.
20 this marked as Exhibit 90. 20 A. Yes. I mean, I -- I've heard of them
21 (Exhibit 90 marked.) 21 because of the deposition of Mr. Warren, but I --
22 THE WITNESS: Essentially, the FBI 22 when you say, "familiar with them," no, I'm not
23 works with local law enforcement to make organized 23 familiar with them.
24 crime cases. 24 Q. Have you reviewed any articles regarding
25 MR. ADKINS: There's an extra, 25 convenience store security that's been put out by
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1 the NACS? 1 deposition.
2 A. No, sir. 2 Q. And have you reviewed any of the articles
3 Q. Have you reviewed any articles regarding 3 that were quoted in his dep -- in his deposition or
4 architecture and security and how architecture 4 attached to his deposition or in his report?
5 relates to security? 5 A. No. I just read his report.
6 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Are you familiar with any statistics put
7 Q. Are you familiar with NIOSH, "Preventing 7 out by the U.S. Department of Justice with respect
8 Homicide in the Workplace"? 8 to workplace violence?
9 A. No. 9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Are you familiar with any articles about 10 Q. So you're not familiar with the comparison
11 workers in certain in -- industries and occupations 11 of the various industries with respect to violence?
12 that have an increased risk of homicide as published 12 A. Just what Mr. Warren expounded on in his
13 by NIOSH? 13 report.
14 A. Just vaguely. 14 Q. And do you have any opinions about -- about
15 Q. Are you familiar with OSHA? 15 any of the articles quoted in his report?
16 A. Yes. 16 A. Well, just that you're less likely to be
17 Q. Can you -- Do you know what that is? 17 killed or injured at your workplace than you are
18 A. Yeah. The Occupational Safety -- 18 anyplace else. You're safer -- You're safer at the
19 Occupational -- Occupational Safety and Health 19 workplace.
20 Administration, or something along those lines. 20 Q. And what do you base that -- your -- your
21 Q. And are you familiar with the duties of an 21 statement that you're safer at the workplace than
22 employer? 22 anywhere else?
23 A. In regards to what? 23 A. Well --
24 Q. With regard to providing a safe workplace. 24 Q. Like what do you base that on?
25 A. No, sir. 25 A. On his -- On his report.
Page 239 Page 241
1 Q. Are you familiar with OSHA's standards for 1 Q. No. I mean, you base your opinion that
2 workplace violence awareness and prevention? 2 you're safer at your workplace than anywhere else on
3 A. We've studied those in the past, but that 3 his report?
4 was back in the '80s, I believe. 4 A. Yeah, to -- I mean, I -- I've been aware of
5 Q. Have you reviewed anything in the last two 5 that, but, you know, he pretty much emphasizes it
6 decades that related to OSHA's workplace violence 6 for us.
7 and awareness prevention? 7 Q. That you're safe at work?
8 A. No, sir. 8 A. That you're safer at work, yes.
9 Q. What's a workplace violence prevention 9 Q. And where does that say that in the report?
10 program? 10 A. Well, it says -- says, "According to the
11 A. I -- I don't really recall. I know we went 11 survey, one in six violent crimes, which is about
12 through that, again, back in the late '80s, early 12 16 percent, in the United States, an estimated
13 '90s, at the San -- San Antonio Police Department. 13 8 percent of rapes, 7 percent of robberies and
14 Q. Do you know how OSHA defines workplace 14 16 percent of assaults occur at work."
15 violence? 15 So 84 percent of the violent crimes
16 A. No, not necessarily. 16 occur someplace other than work. 92 percent of
17 Q. Do you know if they define violence the 17 rapes occur someplace other than work. 7 per -- And
18 same way you do? 18 93 percent of robberies occur someplace other than
19 A. Not necessarily. I don't know how they 19 work, and 84 percent of assaults occur somewhere
20 define it. 20 other than work, so you're safer at work.
21 Q. Are you familiar -- Are you familiar with 21 Q. Than anywhere else combined, right?
22 any articles put out by NIOSH that identify certain 22 A. Yeah. That's what most people do. Most of
23 premise -- I mean, certain types of workplaces that 23 the time --
24 are, by their very nature, violent? 24 Q. What about one other thing combined?
25 A. Just what little was in Mr. Warren's 25 Like what -- what about one -- this -- Are you
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1 familiar with like a segregation of, well, you're 1 talking about -- You're saying because that says
2 safer in your car than violence over -- than at 2 that, you're safer at work than anywhere else?
3 work? Or are you safer at your house than -- than 3 A. According to what he's saying. That's --
4 violence at work? Are you safer at -- Are you 4 All I can tell you is, I can --
5 familiar with -- 5 Q. Than any one particular place?
6 A. Well, you wouldn't categorize it that 6 A. Than -- Well, he's talking about workplace.
7 way -- 7 He's obviously keying on the workplace. So if -- if
8 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 8 only 16 percent of violent crimes occur at the
9 THE WITNESS: -- because, you know, 9 workplace, then 84 must be occurring someplace else.
10 you're safer -- you're safer away from, say, an oil 10 Q. What about home?
11 well rig than you are -- 11 A. What about home?
12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What about prison? Are you 12 Q. What about home? Does violence occur at
13 safer in prison than work? 13 home?
14 A. Well, see, that's what I'm saying. No, 14 A. On occasion, yeah.
15 you're probably not -- not safer there. 15 Q. So do you know the difference between home
16 Q. Do you -- Are you familiar with any 16 and work?
17 statistics about prison? 17 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
18 A. No, sir. 18 THE WITNESS: That's a -- That's a
19 Q. So are you -- Well, I mean, you just said 19 different situation. You're talking about --
20 you're safer anywhere else -- I mean, you're safer 20 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Everybody's got a home,
21 at work than anywhere else. But you're -- are -- 21 right? Not everybody's in prison, though.
22 But you can't say that you're safer at prison, can 22 A. Almost everybody. Not -- A lot of homeless
23 you? 23 people don't -- But you're talking about a different
24 A. No. 24 circumstance at home.
25 Q. So -- 25 Q. Well, I mean, you're saying that you're
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1 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 1 safer everywhere else, so you're -- I mean --
2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) -- what you said isn't 2 A. Well, you're safer at home, yeah. I think
3 necessarily true, right? 3 most people, if they would -- if -- if they were
4 A. Yeah. You're -- You're picking one 4 afraid, the first thing you want to do is, I want --
5 instance out of a million. 5 you want to go home. It's the safest place.
6 Q. Right. Well, what I'm -- what you're doing 6 Q. And what do you base that on?
7 is, saying that, oh, well, 92 percent of thing -- 7 A. On my experience.
8 things happen everywhere else except for work, so 8 Q. Okay. So you gather from his report that
9 obviously you're safer at work. 9 you're safer at work than anywhere else?
10 A. But most people in the community don't live 10 A. I'm just interpreting what he said.
11 in prison. 11 Q. Is that -- That's your interpretation,
12 Q. Okay. 12 correct?
13 A. So that's -- that's not a fair comparison. 13 A. That's -- To a certain point, yes.
14 You're at church, you're at school, you're at 14 Q. And you base your opinion on that
15 basketball games and -- and -- 15 interpretation, correct?
16 Q. Have you reviewed the statistics and the 16 A. Not according to his -- his data.
17 studies that are quoted in there? 17 Q. So you're basing your opinion that you're
18 A. He's your expert. 18 safer at work than anywhere else based on that data?
19 Q. Have you reviewed them? 19 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form, asked
20 A. Have I reviewed this? 20 and answered, argumentative.
21 Q. No. Have you reviewed those statistics and 21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 studies? 22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Yes or no?
23 A. No. I know how to subtract. 23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. So you're saying that because that 24 Q. Okay. Do you agree that crimes outside a
25 states that, what, 16 percent or whatever we were 25 store have something to do with foreseeability of
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1 incidents inside the store? 1 efforts to have lighting and TV cameras and TV
2 A. It depends on the type of crime you're 2 monitors and so forth makes it an enjoyable
3 talking about. 3 experience for the customer.
4 Q. Ever, any kind of crime. 4 A customer does not want to come in
5 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 5 and see somebody stealing beer or -- or robbing a
6 THE WITNESS: Just any kind of 6 place. So if you can try to prevent that --
7 crime? 7 Q. So lighting prevented -- Actually, lighting
8 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Yeah. I mean, do crimes 8 was for the protection of people? Is that what
9 outside the store -- outside the door, do they have 9 you're saying?
10 anything with the foreseeability of crimes inside 10 A. It -- It makes them feel comfortable.
11 the door? 11 Everybody that goes -- In the day, it doesn't matter
12 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 12 that much. But at night, yeah, you want a well-lit
13 THE WITNESS: To -- To a certain 13 property.
14 degree, yes. 14 Q. And having a telephone?
15 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. Would you agree that 15 A. A telephone provides a service to the
16 after going to the store that the -- the primary 16 community members. I think on at least ten
17 concer -- the primary concern from a security 17 occasions people felt safe to go there and report
18 standpoint was the protection of assets, that is, 18 crimes from that telephone.
19 shoplifting and internal theft? 19 Q. Would you hand me the Central Security --
20 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 20 Let's see. It's marked as Exhibit 81. Central
21 THE WITNESS: You're going to have 21 Security.
22 to ask me that question again. I'm sorry. 22 A. It will be in here somewhere.
23 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Would -- After going to the 23 MR. ROGERS: See if I can help you.
24 store and visiting and -- albeit, on January 13th of 24 Here's 83, 84.
25 2011, would you agree that the primary concern from 25 THE WITNESS: Here you go.
Page 247 Page 249
1 a security standpoint was the protection of assets, 1 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So is there anything else
2 such as preventing shoplifting and -- and internal 2 that they did --
3 theft? 3 A. I think we've asked me that --
4 A. No, not necessarily, because they -- they 4 Q. -- for the protection of people besides the
5 overlap. I mean, providing a -- a warm, safe, 5 telephone and --
6 secure environment invites customers, and it makes 6 A. Well, I -- I told you all the aspects of
7 them feel safer, and -- and you take certain steps 7 the security efforts that they took, and I'm telling
8 to make sure that they're safe. They just pretty 8 you that they go hand in hand with creating a
9 much go hand in hand. The security efforts enhance 9 pleasant interaction with customers, both to draw
10 your -- your interactions with the customers. 10 them in and -- and to interact with them and provide
11 Q. What are some things that the store -- this 11 them with a service.
12 store in particular did -- or ABHI did or Susser or 12 Q. What was done for -- like, by ABHI for the
13 Stripes did that was a protection -- that protected 13 protection of the employees?
14 anything other than assets? 14 A. What was done to -- for the protection of
15 A. Well, they have a telephone there to 15 employees? Everything we talked about earlier
16 provide services. They provide services to the 16 today.
17 community. So it's not -- it's not an -- a -- it's 17 Q. So that would be persons, right?
18 a convenient -- Well, that's why they call it a 18 A. Yes.
19 convenience store. But it's a service they provide 19 Q. So you're saying the lighting...
20 to that community and to people from outside the 20 A. Clear, clean place, visibility.
21 community that are visiting. 21 Q. Visibility?
22 Q. So -- 22 A. Yeah. A drop safe.
23 A. The fact that they have all of these -- 23 Q. So besides a telephone, drop safe,
24 Because that small percentage of people are going to 24 lighting -- And what was the other one?
25 commit crimes, the fact that they took some of those 25 A. A clean environment.
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1 Q. Clean environment. Is there anything else? 1 Q. Do you know when the -- those were enacted
2 A. I can't think of anything right now. My 2 approximately?
3 brain's turning to mush. 3 A. No. They get enacted from time to time
4 Q. Did the store have a procedure to deal with 4 either by the state legislature or local municipal
5 preventing or stopping robberies at the store? 5 government.
6 A. I don't recall seeing anything. 6 Q. Does San Antonio have one?
7 Q. Did Susser or Stripes have any policies for 7 A. No. They -- They have municipal ordinances
8 preventing robberies or assaults that occurred at -- 8 that govern convenience stores and other retail
9 at the store or any of its stores? 9 outlets, but not a -- not a convenience store
10 A. I -- I don't -- I don't recall reading 10 ordinance, per se.
11 anything -- 11 Q. So you're telling -- So it's your testimony
12 MR. ROGERS: Objection to form. 12 today that San Antonio has no ordinance specifically
13 THE WITNESS: -- specific to -- 13 regarding convenience stores or retail stores open
14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) About a robbery? 14 late at night?
15 A. -- to robbery. 15 A. Not -- Not to my knowledge, no, not -- not
16 Q. Have you reviewed anything with regard to 16 specific to that.
17 procedures about preventing or stopping robberies or 17 Q. In your opinion, did the -- did ABHI,
18 assaults at a store provided by defendant? 18 Stripes or Susser do anything to reduce the
19 A. No, sir. 19 opportunity for this murder or robbery/murder to
20 Q. Have you reviewed any procedures at all by 20 occur --
21 defendants? 21 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
22 A. No, sir. 22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) -- or -- I'm sorry -- the
23 Q. Okay. What's your opinion about having a 23 incident that happened on January 31st, 2008 to
24 uniformed police officer inside the store at 24 occur?
25 night -- or a store at night? Do you feel that 25 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
Page 251 Page 253
1 would enhance or lessen security? 1 THE WITNESS: Just the ordinary and
2 A. Well, that's -- Again, there's positives 2 prudent care that -- that -- required of them.
3 and negatives. It could deter some crime, but then 3 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did they limit access to
4 the customers are going to be alarmed at the 4 the -- Did they limit access to the inside of the
5 necessity to have an armed police officer. 5 store during late-night hours?
6 That's, in this particular case, an 6 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
7 extraordinary measure. I don't know how they would 7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 justify it in terms of -- of the crimes that were 8 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did they have a
9 occurring on the promise -- on the premises and in 9 pass-through box?
10 the surrounding area. 10 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
11 And the downside of having an armed 11 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
12 security guard is always that the officer is at a 12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you know what a
13 disadvantage because they -- they are going to rob 13 pass-through box is?
14 it. And it -- those things happen. Otherwise, we'd 14 A. Yes.
15 never have policemen killed. 15 Q. Did they have an enclosure for the employee
16 They're going to get ambushed, and 16 after hours?
17 there's always the danger of a shootout between the 17 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
18 officer and the suspect and innocent bystanders or 18 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge,
19 employees being injured. So it's got positives and 19 no.
20 negatives. 20 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) You've already said they
21 Q. Are you familiar with any recent ordinances 21 didn't have police -- off-duty police officers,
22 by various city entities with respect to convenient 22 right?
23 store securities in Texas? 23 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
24 A. I'm familiar -- I -- I know that they have 24 THE WITNESS: Not hired to be
25 them. I'm not familiar with them. 25 there, no.
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1 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Would you agree that crime 1 99 percent of the people don't take that -- that
2 such as -- crimes such as these can be foreseeable 2 opportunity. That's -- That's -- I don't know what
3 because of the opportunity? 3 you're trying to say, but that's kind of ridiculous.
4 A. Can be foreseeable because of the 4 Opp -- Opportunity is everywhere.
5 opportunity? 5 It's just that law-abiding citizens don't take up
6 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 6 that opportunity. And even criminals often do not
7 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Right. Would you agree 7 take up that opportunity, which even decreases the
8 that the crime would be foreseeable because the 8 number.
9 opportunity was there to commit the crime? 9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) All right. Well, if you
10 A. Well, you couldn't -- you couldn't just 10 put a $50 bill in your pocket -- Okay?
11 narrow it down to that one category. I mean, I 11 A. Uh-huh.
12 think you'd have to have an overall view of the 12 Q. -- and you hang it out of your back pocket
13 entire environment in and -- and around that store. 13 several inches --
14 Q. Well, I mean, would you agree that it can 14 A. Uh-huh.
15 be foreseeable because of no opportun -- because an 15 Q. -- and you might go out to a public place
16 opportunity would be there? 16 like 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 times without the money
17 A. No, be -- for two reasons. One is, just 17 being taken, but the opportunity's there, right?
18 because there -- opportunity is there does not mean 18 A. The opportunity's there.
19 that an offense is going to occur. Secondarily, 19 Q. Okay. And would you agree it would be
20 there's no way for us to document how many times we 20 foreseeable to you that the $50 may be taken if it
21 prevented a robbery because of those steps that I 21 ever is?
22 mentioned earlier in terms of the lighting, the two 22 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
23 employees, being able to see in and out. When 23 THE WITNESS: No. What is
24 somebody decides not to rob the store, there's no 24 foreseeable to me, that somebody's going to say,
25 way to document that. 25 "Hey, sir. You -- You're going to drop your money."
Page 255 Page 257
1 Q. It -- It isn't necessary to have a crime 1 That happens more often than not. Or, "You dropped
2 occur already in order for the crime to be 2 your money, sir. Here it is." That's happened to
3 foreseeable, is it? 3 me more than I've ever been pickpocketed or dropped
4 A. For the crime to have been committed 4 money and not recovered it. Just -- I don't
5 already? 5 understand what you're getting at, but that's --
6 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 6 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So basically, hang --
7 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) It -- It -- It isn't 7 hanging $50 out of your pocket, that presents an
8 necessary to have a crime occur already in order for 8 opportunity, correct?
9 the crime to be foreseeable, is it? 9 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
10 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does.
11 THE WITNESS: Pretty much, because 11 Uh-huh.
12 crime can occur just about anywhere at any time to 12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Okay. Is that opportunity
13 anybody. So how would you foresee it? Well, there 13 greater or lesser because it's hanging out of your
14 is one way, I guess, if you could look into the 14 pocket?
15 future, but I don't know of anybody that could do 15 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
16 that reliably. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. It's
17 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I mean, the fact that the 17 hard to tell, because, like I said, in all of my
18 opportunity is there to rob a store or to go in 18 experience, more often than not, somebody says,
19 during late-night hours while no one else -- while 19 "Sir, you've got -- left your money hanging out of
20 none of the other businesses are open, that's an 20 your pocket." It -- The oppor -- Even a crook may
21 opportunity, and that opportunity can make it 21 come by --
22 foreseeable, right? 22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So it's not more
23 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 23 foreseeable that somebody could take that $50
24 THE WITNESS: There is an 24 hanging out of your pock -- pocket in public in a --
25 opportunity 24/7 at any place to anybody, but 25 in a highly populated public area than you having it
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1 in your wallet? 1 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
2 A. There's no way to determine -- 2 THE WITNESS: For the simple reason
3 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 3 that 99 percent of the people are going to make you
4 THE WITNESS: -- because there's no 4 aware of that rather than steal that money or wait
5 way to document how many people passed up that 5 for it to drop and say, "Well, I picked it up off
6 opportunity. If -- If a -- If a million people 6 the ground."
7 passed up that opportunity and that one guy stole it 7 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So it's not foreseeable, if
8 from you, that's not saying that it was foreseeable. 8 you walk around with money hanging out of your
9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So -- So the -- 9 pocket, that somebody might steal it?
10 A. I -- It's just -- 10 A. Sure, it is, but, I mean, I don't know when
11 Q. -- having the opportunity there, it doesn't 11 you would do that or why you would do that.
12 make it more foreseeable? 12 Q. Well, it's the opportunity that would make
13 A. It -- People provide opportunity for 13 it foreseeable, correct?
14 criminal activity to occur all the time. It's just 14 A. No, it's not.
15 that 99 percent of the people don't take up that 15 Q. So -- Okay. So it's the same -- So what
16 opportunity. 16 you're saying is, is that it's -- it's the same --
17 Q. So you disagree? 17 having $50 hanging out of your pocket in a public
18 A. To a certain degree, yes. 18 place is the same as having that money tuck --
19 Q. Well, do you disagree? 19 safely tucked away in your wallet?
20 A. At least in my experience in that specific 20 A. No. It --
21 example that you used, it's been my experience often 21 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
22 that, "Sir, you dropped your money," or, "Sir, 22 THE WITNESS: There's just so many
23 you've got some money hanging out of your table. 23 different variables.
24 You left your keys on the table." Or I've left my 24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) It's -- It's same --
25 cell phone places -- 25 A. There's --
Page 259 Page 261
1 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 1 Q. You're saying it's similarly --
2 nonresponsive. 2 A. There's --
3 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you think -- Do you 3 Q. -- foreseeable?
4 agree or disagree? I mean -- 4 A. 99 percent of the people are going to take
5 A. Well, I -- 5 that opportunity to make you aware of that --
6 Q. -- does the opportunity make it more 6 Q. So --
7 foreseeable because it's hanging out of your 7 A. -- if they see it. Why I would hang a $50
8 wallet -- or hanging out of your pocket rather than 8 bill out of my pocket is beyond me.
9 it being in your wallet? 9 Q. So it doesn't make it foreseeable? It --
10 A. Well, it -- I mean, I -- 10 It --
11 Q. I mean, it's a simple question. 11 A. Not -- Not necessarily --
12 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 12 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
13 THE WITNESS: No. It's -- It's not 13 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Opportunity doesn't --
14 a simple question. It's a trick question. Why 14 (Speaking simultaneously.)
15 would I hang out -- $50 out of my pocket and go 15 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry.
16 someplace? More often than not, it happens because 16 Y'all are going to have to -- One at a time, please.
17 you are not aware of it. So how can you foresee 17 MR. ROGERS: Stop. Pierce, I don't
18 losing that dollar if you're not aware that it's 18 know where you're going, what school of depositions
19 hanging out of your pocket? It's not a -- It's a 19 you went to. That's not the legal test for
20 trick question. It's not a simple question. You're 20 foreseeability. You're badgering this witness. I'm
21 trying to get me to say something that's ridiculous. 21 tired of listening to it, and I'm not going to let
22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So you -- how is it 22 you keep going on that area.
23 ridiculous that an opportunity -- the opportunity of 23 We've got -- been up to five hours.
24 having -- the opportunity is greatened by the fact 24 If you want to use your full six hours, get after
25 that you have $50 hanging out of your pocket? 25 it, but we ain't gonna have -- we're not going one
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1 second past six hours. 1 Q. Is waiting for a lawsuit before taking
2 MR. ADKINS: Okay. 2 action or making security improvements proactive?
3 MR. ROGERS: I can guarantee you 3 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
4 that. I can promise you -- 4 THE WITNESS: No. I -- I think the
5 MR. ADKINS: Well, I've got my six 5 standard is reasonableness of care, in this
6 hours, and stop wasting it. 6 particular case, crimes on the property, in and
7 MR. ROGERS: Well, I'm making an 7 around it, that are similar.
8 objection for the record, and I'm telling you not 8 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What's your understanding
9 to -- 9 of this store's -- or the defendants in this case
10 MR. ADKINS: Well, I'm -- We're 10 security awareness?
11 putting -- This is pursuant to the Rules, and you 11 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
12 can make your objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: Well -- What was that
13 MR. ROGERS: All right. I can, and 13 question again?
14 then I'm instructing the witness not to answer those 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What is your understanding
15 anymore because you're badgering the witness. 15 of the store's security awareness?
16 MR. ADKINS: I'm asking him a 16 A. I didn't read any documents or anything to
17 simple hypothetical, which he's refusing to answer. 17 give me that information.
18 MR. ROGERS: Well -- 18 Q. So you have no opinion as to your -- you
19 MR. ADKINS: And now you're 19 have no understanding of this store's security
20 instructing him not to answer a very simple 20 awareness?
21 hypothetical. 21 A. I -- No, sir.
22 MR. ROGERS: Because you're not 22 Q. Or the defendants' security awareness?
23 asking him based on the legal test of 23 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
24 foreseeability. You've got some bullshit theory 24 THE WITNESS: No. Just by my
25 about hanging $50 out of your back pocket. 25 observations, the things we've already talked about,
Page 263 Page 265
1 MR. ADKINS: God dammit, Rick, 1 the things that they -- that were present at the
2 just -- Look, you either object or you don't, or you 2 store that I observed.
3 tell him not to answer or you don't. 3 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Were they aware of what
4 MR. ROGERS: Don't answer it 4 crimes were taking place in its store?
5 anymore. Let's move on. 5 A. In that store?
6 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Would you agree that this 6 Q. Yes.
7 store is open to the public, at least? 7 A. I -- I don't know except -- The only
8 A. Yes, sir. 8 testimony I have is Mr. Vyas and Mr. Amin who said
9 Q. Would you agree that this store encourages 9 that there was no -- no crimes occurring at the
10 families and people to shop there? 10 store that they made Susser or Stripes aware of.
11 A. I don't -- I don't know to what degree 11 Q. So knowing that crimes did go -- that
12 they -- you would call it encouragement. They 12 crimes were -- did occur at this store, did they
13 provide a valuable service and a reasonably safe 13 have -- were they aware -- I'm sorry. Let me
14 environment. And so if that's encouragement, I 14 restate that. Strike that.
15 guess. I don't -- I don't see anybody -- I don't 15 Knowing that crimes did occur at
16 know of anyone standing out, you know, ushering 16 the store, was ABHI aware of what crimes were taking
17 people into the -- to the property. 17 place in its store based on the deposition testimony
18 Q. Do you agree that a store needs to take 18 of Amin and -- and -- Dan or Ben or whoever their
19 proactive, reasonable steps to protect the safety of 19 name -- both of them?
20 its customers? 20 A. They -- I don't know if they were aware of
21 A. Yes, prudent and ordinary care. 21 them or not. They testified that crimes were not
22 Q. Do you agree that a store needs to be 22 occurring at the store. I don't know what their
23 proactive in taking reasonable steps to protect the 23 frame of mind was.
24 safety of its employees? 24 Q. So based on their testimony, they were not
25 A. I would tend to agree. 25 aware of the crimes that took place in this store --
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1 in their store? 1 Q. How can a store determine what is necessary
2 A. I don't know if they were aware of them or 2 to protect customers and employees if they don't
3 not. And when I say "by frame of mind," I don't 3 know what crime is occurring on or near their store?
4 know if they just thought that those relatively 4 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
5 minor crimes were not worth reporting to Susser and 5 THE WITNESS: There's general steps
6 Stripes or that they did not consider it a criminal 6 that -- that they take. That's the ones we talked
7 activity. I mentioned in my report that civilians 7 about today. Because the store, when they --
8 are not really that well qualified to document or 8 Especially when you first open the store, you may
9 code or make decisions about what is a criminal -- a 9 not be aware of the criminal activity in the area,
10 crime or not. I -- 10 so you just take the -- the general precautions that
11 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 11 you feel are -- are -- are reasonable.
12 nonresponsive. 12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you feel that it's an
13 THE WITNESS: I just know what was 13 effective means of taking reasonable security
14 in their deposition -- 14 measures for a store to wait to be sued to determine
15 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 15 what needs to be done?
16 nonresponsive. 16 A. No.
17 THE WITNESS: -- what they 17 Q. How many robberies or, I guess, robberies
18 testified to in their deposition. 18 with bodily in -- or -- I'm sorry -- assaults with
19 MR. ADKINS: Objection; 19 bodily injury would it have taken at -- to make it
20 nonresponsive. 20 foreseeable that a robbery would take place at this
21 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Based on their deposition 21 store --
22 testimony and not some speculative explan -- 22 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
23 explanation provided by you, were they aware of the 23 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) -- for an aggravated
24 crimes taking place in their store? 24 robbery to take place at this store?
25 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 25 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
Page 267 Page 269
1 THE WITNESS: You're asking a 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know what
2 speculative question. So how do you expect me not 2 you're asking me, because --
3 to give you -- 3 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I mean, how -- how many
4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What did their -- 4 aggravated robberies would it take -- would -- would
5 A. -- a speculative answer? 5 you need to make it foreseeable?
6 Q. -- deposition testimony say? 6 A. There's -- There's no magic number.
7 A. Their -- Their deposition testimony said 7 Q. How many murders would make it foreseeable?
8 that they -- that crimes did not occur on their 8 A. Again, there's no -- there's no magic
9 premises. 9 number.
10 Q. Thank you. 10 Q. How many assaults with bodily injury
11 A. But I -- Where you speculate is that they 11 would -- would you need?
12 were unaware of it. I don't know if they were aware 12 A. That's a vague question, because that --
13 of it or not. 13 that's altogether a different kind of crime than --
14 Q. Okay. So you're saying perhaps they were 14 they're just -- that you would never be able to
15 aware of it but they testified otherwise? 15 foresee a capital murder based on some assault.
16 A. I -- I don't know that. I just know what's 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ten minutes,
17 on the written document. 17 Counsel.
18 Q. Okay. Did you review any records kept by 18 MR. ROGERS: How many?
19 ABHI about crimes that occurred at their store? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ten, on this
20 A. No, sir. 20 reel.
21 Q. Were you aware of other lawsuits besides 21 MR. ADKINS: Okay.
22 the ones you took part of -- part in where Stripes 22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) You're aware that Mr. Meje
23 had -- had been -- Stripes or -- and/or Susser had 23 was an employee of ABHI, correct?
24 been sued for inadequate security at their stores? 24 A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
25 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Do you know that?
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1 A. Yes. 1 the surveillance cameras and so forth --
2 Q. Would you characterize an employee as an 2 Q. Who do?
3 invitee? 3 A. -- whether they're on or off. The
4 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 4 employee. But whether they had any say into putting
5 THE WITNESS: I would guess so. 5 them in or how many, what kind, what brand, I don't
6 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) In your opinion, what duty 6 know who -- who did that.
7 did ABHI owe Mr. Meje? 7 Q. Okay. So there's nothing that you've
8 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 8 reviewed that shows you whether or not ABHI,
9 THE WITNESS: The same as for 9 Mr. Meje, Susser or Stripes had control over the
10 everyone else, prudent reasonable care. 10 hardware used inside the store?
11 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did Mr. Meje have control 11 A. Counselor, you use the word "control,"
12 over the design or layout of the store? 12 in -- in my estimation to mean install. It really
13 A. Not to my knowledge. 13 doesn't matter who installs it. It's who operates
14 Q. Did ABHI have control over the design and 14 it at the time that you're interested in.
15 layout of the store? 15 Did they install it? I don't -- I
16 A. I -- I -- I don't know. I can't think of 16 don't think Mr. Meje did. But would he be the one,
17 right now. 17 him and Mr. Patel, that would operate it at -- at
18 Q. Is there anything that you've reviewed that 18 the time of this incident -- the day of this
19 would cause you to believe that they did? 19 incident? Yes, they would be the ones op -- in
20 A. I can't think of anything right now. 20 control.
21 Q. Did Susser and Stripes have control over 21 Q. When was the alarm installed on the
22 the design and layout of the store? 22 premises?
23 A. I can't think of anything that would advise 23 A. Which one?
24 me in that regard. 24 Q. The one installed by Alert USA Security
25 Q. So you have no opinions as to who was in 25 Services, Inc.
Page 271 Page 273
1 control of the design and layout of the store? 1 A. I don't know which one that was.
2 A. No, sir. 2 Q. I'll show you what's been marked as
3 Q. Did ABHI control the hardware used inside 3 Exhibit 81 to your deposition. Can you please
4 the store -- 4 identify that document?
5 A. Did they -- 5 A. It says, "Alert USA Security Services, Inc.
6 Q. -- such as doors, locks and alarms? 6 agreement for alarm installation."
7 A. Well, the employee on duty at the time. 7 Q. And when's the date of that document?
8 Q. Okay. Did Susser or Stripes control the 8 A. 6 February of 2008.
9 hardware used inside the store, such as doors, 9 Q. And was that before or after the murder of
10 locks, alarms? 10 Mr. Meje?
11 A. Not to my knowledge. They'd be -- have to 11 A. That was after.
12 be the employee. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Five minutes,
13 Q. So Abdul Meje can -- had control over the 13 Counsel.
14 hardware that was used inside the store, such as the 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did ABHI have control over
15 doors and locks? 15 the access to the inside of the store during the
16 A. What do you mean by "control," Counselor? 16 late night -- or early morning hours?
17 Q. Well, they had control over whether 17 A. I -- The employees did, yes.
18 hardware was going to be installed or used or inside 18 Q. Okay. Did Susser or Stripes?
19 the store, like whether there were going to be locks 19 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
20 or whether the alarms were used or whether saf -- 20 THE WITNESS: No. I don't see how
21 safety glass was installed or whether -- you know, 21 they could.
22 who -- I mean, did Mr. Meje make those decisions? 22 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Did ABHI have control over
23 A. That's -- I think that's a different 23 access giving -- given to the -- the -- the office
24 question. The actual control -- Yeah. They control 24 in the back or the stockroom or the trash area?
25 the locks and whether they lock the doors or not and 25 A. Not that I'm aware of. I -- I don't know.
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1 I would think that the employees at the time would. 1 About -- About -- About 30, I guess, all total,
2 Q. Were you provided a retainer in this case? 2 including the ones that I -- I gave you today.
3 A. I submitted a retainer fee. 3 Q. Okay. And how many of those did you
4 Q. Were you -- Were you paid? 4 testify as an expert witness in a premises-related
5 A. I have not received it. 5 matter?
6 Q. Okay. How much do you charge for testimony 6 A. Just that one, Kovacic.
7 at trial? 7 Q. Okay. Do you know of any other stores that
8 A. The same, $200 an hour. 8 have policies or procedures for access to the inside
9 Q. How much do your billings total each year 9 of the store during early morning hours?
10 for private expert witness consulting and 10 A. No.
11 testifying? 11 Q. Do you know of any other stores or chains
12 A. It changes dramatically because -- because 12 with policies and procedures for their employees and
13 I don't advertise or anything. It's just whoever 13 safety during the early morning hours?
14 calls. 14 A. No. I'm not aware of them.
15 Q. What percentage of your income is it? 15 Q. You're not aware of any?
16 A. Probably -- Again, it changes from year to 16 A. No.
17 year. I would say, over the last four years, 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Last question.
18 probably 15 percent, maybe. 18 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you know of any
19 Q. And what are your other sources of income? 19 comparable chains similar to Susser and Stripes?
20 A. Investment, pension -- Two pensions, 20 A. Do I know of any?
21 actually, and -- and investments. 21 Q. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Where are the pensions from? 22 A. Valero is -- is the one that comes to mind.
23 A. San Antonio Police Department and the Texas 23 Q. Is 7-Eleven similar?
24 Teacher Retirement System. 24 A. I don't think we have any here. We don't
25 Q. And when you talk about investments, are 25 have any in San Antonio.
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1 those property investments? Or are those real 1 Q. Do you know what 7-Eleven is?
2 estate or stocks or -- 2 A. Yes, sir. We used to have them.
3 A. It -- They're diversified. They're in the 3 Q. Would they be similar back when you used to
4 stock market. 4 have them? Or Circle K?
5 Q. How many times have you testified in court? 5 A. I mean, I'm not aware how similar or
6 A. Probably 150 times, I guess. 6 dissimilar they are. I -- I just know those are
7 Q. How many times have you testified in court 7 convenience stores that I assume are similar.
8 in a civil case? 8 Q. Are you familiar with any of those
9 A. In a civil case? Probably 20, 30 times, I 9 companies' policies and procedures?
10 guess. 10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. And of the 20 times you testified in court 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Need to break
12 in a civil case, how many times have you testified 12 there. This brings us to the conclusion of Disc
13 as an expert witness? 13 No. 3 of the Ortiz deposition. The time is
14 A. All of them. 14 5:19 p.m. We are off the record.
15 Q. And those were the ones we went over 15 (Off the record.)
16 earlier? 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. This
17 A. Well, those are just the last five years. 17 is the beginning of Disc No. 4 of the Ortiz
18 Q. Okay. But you've testified in other civil 18 deposition. The time is 5:31, and we are on the
19 matters as an expert besides the ones that you've 19 record.
20 given me today? 20 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Mr. Ortiz, is there
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 anything, in your opinion, that ABHI could have done
22 Q. How many other ones have you pro -- 22 which would have made this murder less likely to
23 provided testimony in other than the ones you've 23 occur?
24 given me today? 24 A. That's hard to respond to without, again,
25 A. I think an additional 15 or 20, I think. 25 looking in the future. I think they did what was
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1 ordinary and reasonable, and that's all that can be 1 THE WITNESS: No. I'm not saying
2 expected to do. 2 that those measures -- that those agreements added
3 Q. And we've gone through what they did, 3 to or diminished the security measures. I'm just
4 correct? 4 saying it was my understanding as a layman that they
5 A. Yes. 5 entered into that agreement with ABHI to allow them
6 Q. Can you state that again? 6 to have day-to-day control over the operation of the
7 A. That I thought they did -- that they took 7 convenience store.
8 prudent and ordinary care and some of the other 8 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. I'm
9 aspects that you're talking about would be 9 sorry.
10 extraordinary measures. 10 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So no, there's nothing they
11 Q. What did they do? 11 could have done?
12 A. I believe I already went through that. 12 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
13 Q. Well, can you recount for -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. I said
14 A. Lighting, visibility, a warm, friendly 14 extraordinary measures would be the only thing.
15 atmosphere, clean area. There was no violent crimes 15 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What -- What are -- What
16 out there that were similar or with such frequency 16 are extraordinary measures?
17 that -- or that they received notice of that would 17 A. Going beyond what was the environment there
18 have led to more stringent measures. 18 at the time and --
19 Q. Okay. So other than the lighting and the 19 Q. What's that?
20 friendly atmosphere -- 20 A. -- superseding the environment.
21 A. Everything we've talked about. 21 Q. Well, what's that?
22 Q. -- interior visibility -- 22 A. What was what?
23 A. Everything we've talked about in this 23 Q. What -- What are the ord -- extraordinary
24 deposition, yes, sir. 24 measures that you're talking about?
25 Q. Is there anything that you believe Stripes 25 A. Well, I -- I don't know what they are. I'm
Page 279 Page 281
1 or Susser could have done to make this murder less 1 just -- I can only testify to what -- what I know
2 likely to occur? 2 of, by reading the documents, about the premises,
3 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 3 the crime picture and whether they received notice
4 THE WITNESS: Same response. My 4 of any problems that would have caused them to take
5 understanding, they entered into a legal agreement 5 other measures.
6 to allow ABHI to have the day-to-day -- be in charge 6 Q. And in this case, you don't believe there
7 of the day-to-day operations of the store. They 7 was anything that would cause them to do so. But is
8 took ordinary and prudent care. 8 there anything that they could have done to make it
9 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And you're not here to 9 less likely to occur? Extraordinary measures. But
10 testify today about the -- the legal effectiveness 10 what are those extraordinary measures?
11 of any agreements between the parties, are you? 11 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
12 A. No, sir. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
13 Q. Are you qualified to do that? 13 mean, I don't -- Yeah. Again, you're asking me to
14 A. No, sir. 14 look into the future. No matter what measures they
15 Q. So other than those legal agreements, did 15 took --
16 they do anything -- or is there anything that they 16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) I mean, it was your words.
17 could have done to make this murder less likely to 17 A. -- there is no -- there is nothing that's
18 occur? 18 going to guarantee that an event is not going to
19 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form. 19 happen.
20 THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know 20 Q. I'm not asking about guarantees. I'm just
21 what else they could have done besides extraordinary 21 asking about if there's anything that would make it
22 measures. 22 less likely to occur.
23 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) So anything beyond those 23 A. I don't know, except for maybe
24 agreements would be extraordinary, correct? 24 extraordinary measures. I -- I guess build a
25 MR. ROGERS: Objection -- 25 Fort Knox-type building, but that's not conducive
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1 to -- to good store management, in my opinion, as a 1 A. I think they're in the glass business, but
2 layman. So I don't know what those measures would 2 I don't recall independently, no.
3 be that you're seeking out. 3 Q. Have you made any in -- independent
4 Q. I'm just asking, in your professional 4 research into what type of products they offer?
5 opinion, is there anything that they could have 5 A. No, sir.
6 done -- 6 Q. No?
7 A. In my professional opinion, I would 7 A. No.
8 restrict my opinions to what I know of by reading 8 Q. Do you know when the store was built?
9 these documents and having formed my opinion in 9 A. No. I don't know.
10 written form and in the testimony I've given today. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 20 minutes,
11 Hypothetically, what could have, 11 Counsel.
12 would have, I -- I -- Once you change something, 12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Do you know if the store
13 then it's good to reevaluate everything else. So... 13 was 20 -- open 24 hours a day?
14 Q. So you have no opinions as to what could 14 A. I'm sorry. What was that question? I
15 have been done? 15 didn't hear it.
16 A. Not at this point. I'm sticking to what I 16 Q. Do you know if the store was open 24 hours
17 know -- 17 a day as of the night January 31st, 2008?
18 Q. Okay. 18 A. I believe so.
19 A. -- was there. 19 Q. Do you know that to be a fact?
20 Q. The factual -- 20 A. Well, I believe it was open 24/7.
21 A. At this point, yes. 21 Q. Is -- Is the right-hand side of the store,
22 Q. -- statements? Okay. Is there anything 22 if you're facing the store, partially covered in red
23 that -- in your opinion that Mr. Meje could have 23 tile?
24 done to make it less likely that he would be 24 A. Yes.
25 murdered? 25 Q. In the -- the nighttime pictures that
Page 283 Page 285
1 A. With 20/20 hindsight, you could always 1 Mr. Rogers is looking at, what can you see inside
2 improve on things. But in my estimation, Mr. Meje 2 those windows?
3 was just a -- the victim of a horrible crime of a 3 A. The lobby of the -- at the entrance -- to
4 guy that was out of control. 4 the -- just to the left of the entrance, and I don't
5 MR. ADKINS: What number are we -- 5 know exactly what -- what that is that -- that we're
6 THE COURT REPORTER: 91. 6 looking at.
7 MR. ADKINS: I'd like to mark that 7 Q. You see a hat rack in there somewhere?
8 as 91. 8 A. Yes. I think that's what it was, yes, sir.
9 (Exhibit 91 marked.) 9 Q. In the daytime photos that -- that you're
10 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Are those the pictures that 10 looking at right now --
11 you held up earlier? 11 MR. ROGERS: Those are nighttime.
12 A. Yes, sir, that I talked about, yes. 12 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Or the -- I'm sorry. After
13 Q. The nighttime photographs, correct? 13 the nighttime ones.
14 A. I'm sorry? 14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The nighttime photographs we held up? 15 Q. Is the red paint on the building, does
16 A. Yes, sir. 16 it -- does it show significant weathering? Or is it
17 Q. Have you reviewed the expenditures by 17 faded?
18 Susser and Stripes on the premises? 18 A. On the building? It looks like rain ran
19 A. I don't recall having reviewed them. 19 down the side of it, yeah.
20 Q. You've never reviewed any invoices from -- 20 Q. So --
21 Have you ever reviewed any invoices from Alltex? 21 A. It's light red.
22 A. I think I did. I just don't recall what 22 Q. So yeah, it's kind of faded? I mean, you
23 they looked like or what they were. 23 know what faded paint is.
24 Q. Are you familiar with what Alltex does as a 24 A. You're starting to insult my intelligence,
25 company? 25 Counselor, and it's getting late in the day.
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1 Q. Is -- 1 A. I -- I believe the presence of police is a
2 A. Do you want me to answer that question? 2 deterrent.
3 Q. Yes. 3 Q. Armed clerk?
4 A. Yes, I do. 4 A. Armed clerk also cuts both ways. It --
5 Q. Thank you. And the store has a public 5 Probably not going to prevent a crime. It just is a
6 telephone outside, correct? 6 defense mechanism for them.
7 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Bullet-resistant barrier?
8 Q. The premises is branded Citgo in those 8 A. Not necessarily.
9 pictures, correct? 9 Q. Number of clerks?
10 A. I don't -- No. I see a sign that says 10 A. I -- I believe in safety in numbers, yes.
11 Citgo, yes, sir. 11 Q. An alarm?
12 Q. And have you seen any of the photographs 12 A. An alarm -- A robbery alarm?
13 that were taken of the surrounding area after the 13 Q. Uh-huh.
14 incident that occurred on January 31st, 2008 that 14 A. Again, it -- it may or may not. It may
15 were taken in 2008? 15 deter some. And, again, we don't have documentation
16 A. No, sir, I don't believe I have. 16 to prove how often that happens. But probably a
17 Q. And earlier we said that -- you -- you 17 determined robber is not going to be deterred by a
18 agreed that it's next to a Goodwill, a liquor store. 18 robbery alarm.
19 Did you see the drug testing clinic nearby? 19 Q. What about the number of customers in the
20 A. I don't recall seeing a drug testing 20 store?
21 clinic. And I didn't agree that -- I didn't say 21 A. Yeah. I believe most robbers are going to
22 that any of those businesses were next door. 22 wait until there's relatively few customers in the
23 MR. ROGERS: You say no. 23 store.
24 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Or nearby. I'm sorry. 24 Q. Cameras?
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 A. Cameras may serve as a deterrent. Again, a
Page 287 Page 289
1 Q. I -- I apologize. Nearby. I believe 1 determined robber, no.
2 you -- what you're looking at is -- has been marked 2 Q. Video display?
3 as Warren Exhibit Number -- 3 A. Video display might in terms of being
4 A. 60. 4 identified. But again, it doesn't always work.
5 Q. -- 60. 5 Q. Pass-through box?
6 A. Yes. Yes. I did see these. Yeah. I'm 6 A. Pardon?
7 sorry. 7 Q. A pass-through box or pass-through drawer.
8 Q. Okay. And included in those pictures, do 8 A. Yeah. That, again, might displace that
9 you see a picture of a drug testing clinic or an 9 crime.
10 abandoned building? 10 Q. Do you believe that convenience stores are
11 A. I see an abandoned building. 11 more likely or less likely to be robbed -- robbed
12 Q. What about a hair salon? 12 than other retail establishments?
13 A. I see a Goodwill. Yes. I see the drug 13 A. I don't have statistics on that. I -- I
14 testing clinic now and the hair salon. 14 really don't know. In --
15 Q. What, in your opinion -- I'm sorry. Are 15 Q. You don't --
16 any of the following in your opinion a deterrent of 16 A. In my -- In my experience, maybe a little
17 crime? A limitation on the amount of money in the 17 bit more.
18 store? 18 Q. So would you agree that in that case,
19 A. I don't see how. Most robbers aren't going 19 the -- the nature of the premises itself actually
20 to know what -- how much money is in the store. 20 makes it more foreseeable that a crime would occur
21 Q. An armed guard? 21 at a convenience store rather than other retail
22 A. An armed guard. Again, we talked about 22 establishments?
23 that earlier. You asked me about that earlier, and 23 MR. ROGERS: Objection; form.
24 it cuts both ways. 24 THE WITNESS: You'd have to go case
25 Q. Police? 25 by case, Counselor.
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1 MR. ADKINS: Okay. Pass the 1 THE WITNESS: Right -- This?
2 witness. 2 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Yeah.
3 MR. ROGERS: I need to see 3 A. Yeah. There it is.
4 something. 4 Q. Did you review this following your opinion
5 5:49 p.m. 5 in this case?
6 EXAMINATION 6 A. No. I don't think I -- Let me see.
7 BY MR. ROGERS: 7 Q. Counsel for the defendant represented that
8 Q. I want to be sure something's clear, 8 you had last night.
9 Mr. Ortiz. In your -- In your discussion with 9 A. No. I don't think I saw this one.
10 counsel about Exhibit 74, which is Warren 64 -- 10 MR. ROGERS: Well, I thought I --
11 A. Yes, sir. 11 Then I'm mistaken. I thought I showed it to you,
12 Q. -- there -- is that the only index or 12 business records affidavit that was dated -- I think
13 schedule or, for lack of a better word, just an -- 13 I got it at the Warren deposition.
14 an outline of -- of things that you reviewed? Or 14 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) How many pages of documents
15 is -- did you review other ones? 15 are in there?
16 A. No. There was at least two others. 16 A. How many pages?
17 Q. Okay. There's 65, '6 and '7. Did you 17 Q. It says on the front, if you want to skip
18 review those? 18 to it.
19 A. Yes. 19 A. 12.
20 Q. As part of your review of those schedules, 20 Q. And can you just briefly review those real
21 did you also review the actual records that were 21 quick?
22 obtained from the police department of Galveston, 22 A. Certainly.
23 Texas relating to calls for service and then the 23 Q. What was that -- What was the first one
24 supplemental reports? 24 about?
25 A. Yes, sir. 25 A. It's a call at 4925 Fort Crockett for shots
Page 291 Page 293
1 Q. Okay. And your opinions are not just 1 fired.
2 limited to that one page that counsel asked you 2 Q. And what's the next one?
3 about, are they? 3 A. It's a call -- It's a call by Mr. Garrett
4 A. No, sir. 4 Gilbert, assault.
5 Q. Okay. Now, are the opinions that you've 5 Q. Okay. What's the next one?
6 given in this case, are they based upon your review 6 A. Assault by contact. That's the same --
7 of all these records that have been developed and 7 Q. Same one?
8 furnished to you as part of your engagement to serve 8 A. -- same case, Garrett Gilbert. I'm sorry.
9 as an expert witness in this case? 9 4607 Fort Crockett for a burglar alarm, and a call
10 A. Yes, sir. 10 by Mike Hendrix for an assault. And that's it.
11 MR. ROGERS: All right. That's all 11 Q. And is that a detailed report? Or are
12 I have. Reserve the rest till the time of trial. 12 those little segments, for instance, on the last
13 MS. KHARMATS: We'll reserve for 13 page of what's been marked --
14 trial. 14 A. It's a follow-up report, yes.
15 5:50 p.m. 15 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. It hasn't been marked.
16 EXAMINATION 16 MR. ADKINS: What -- What are --
17 BY MR. ADKINS: 17 What number are we on?
18 Q. Just one more follow-up. That was more 18 THE COURT REPORTER: 92.
19 than one page that I gave you, correct? 19 MR. ADKINS: Can we please mark
20 A. That's correct. 20 that as 92?
21 MR. ADKINS: Okay. And did we -- 21 (Exhibit 92 marked.)
22 Where is the -- the affidavit? Did we get that in? 22 MR. ADKINS: And, Rick, did he
23 MR. ROGERS: It's over there 23 review the other affidavit, the business records
24 somewhere. I -- I don't think you asked him about 24 affidavit? It was the same one with the incident
25 it. 25 report.
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1 MR. ROGERS: This one right here. 1 MR. ADKINS: Right. They misplaced
2 MR. ADKINS: Is that the one with 2 the --
3 the incident report? 3 MR. ROGERS: That's what I was
4 MR. ROGERS: This is the one you 4 understanding, that this was the same as the other
5 gave me at Warren's deposition. 5 one.
6 MR. ADKINS: Okay. You got two of 6 MR. ADKINS: No. There's two
7 them, because, remember, we lost the aff -- original 7 different affidavits.
8 affidavit and then I gave you the affidavit with the 8 MR. ROGERS: Okay. Well, I -- this
9 business records -- or it -- with the incident 9 is the only one I've gotten.
10 reports listed on the back. 10 MR. ADKINS: Okay. The other has
11 MR. ROGERS: This is the only one I 11 the identical incident reports which you've received
12 walked out of there with, the one that was dated 12 a long time ago.
13 January the 26th. 13 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What is this compared
14 MR. ADKINS: Yeah. There's two of 14 to this -- these? What is this? See, this is what
15 them. There's -- Because, remember, we said -- 15 the other affidavit is right here. These -- This is
16 Remember that conversation we had about the -- the 16 a list, correct?
17 loss of the affidavit and the subsequent affidavit? 17 A. These are incident reports, yes.
18 MR. ROGERS: But I understood that 18 Q. So is that a list of incident reports?
19 the documents were identical. 19 I'm -- I'm referring to what's been marked as
20 MR. ADKINS: Yeah, they were. 20 Exhibit 75.
21 MR. ROGERS: Okay. Well, this is 21 A. I don't know. I'm so confused. I -- I
22 the one he -- I mean, if these are the identical 22 don't know what...
23 documents -- I took -- This is the most -- 23 Q. You reviewed that, right?
24 MR. ADKINS: Well -- No. There -- 24 A. Yes, sir.
25 There's two affidavits. There's one with the 25 MR. ROGERS: This is just a list --
Page 295 Page 297
1 incident reports on it, and then there's one with 1 MR. ADKINS: Right.
2 those extra records. 2 MR. ROGERS: -- of stuff. It
3 MR. ROGERS: This is the only thing 3 doesn't have anything behind it to talk about what
4 I walked out of Warren's deposition with. That's 4 it is or --
5 the only thing I -- 5 MR. ADKINS: Right.
6 MR. ADKINS: Okay. I'll make sure 6 MR. ROGERS: It's just a list. It
7 you get a copy. 7 doesn't tell us where they occurred or --
8 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) And basically you reviewed 8 MR. ADKINS: Yeah. It -- It says
9 the incident reports in this case, right -- or 9 Grid 68, I believe. I was going to have -- Yeah.
10 the -- the lists of incident reports that were -- 10 In the front, it says Grid 68, the first page.
11 A. Yes. 11 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Mr. Ortiz, would you agree
12 Q. -- provided by Galveston -- the City of 12 with me that what counsel is holding there is for
13 Galveston? 13 Grid 68 in Galveston?
14 A. Yeah. Just a -- a whole list of case 14 MR. ROGERS: That's what it says
15 numbers? 15 there. I mean, but this is for -- these are all
16 Q. Right. Which could be just anything. 16 kinds of reports. I mean --
17 A. Yeah. 17 MR. ADKINS: Yeah. Right.
18 Q. And is that different than what's provided 18 MR. ROGERS: -- he -- and they're
19 in those records? 19 not --
20 A. Oh, I don't know. 20 MR. ADKINS: Right. I agree.
21 MR. ROGERS: You know, when I'm -- 21 MR. ROGERS: And we don't have the
22 just so I'm clear, when we were talking about -- you 22 backup incident report or the investigation to show
23 said you went to Galveston and got records, and then 23 what it -- what it really was. I mean, there's
24 somehow or -- somebody misplaced them and you went 24 calls on there for holdups that are false alarms.
25 back and got the same records redone. 25 MR. ADKINS: Right. But what we
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1 have in that stack right there is -- 1 Police Department as an assault. The second page is
2 MR. ROGERS: 75. 2 the ongoing narrative by the dispatcher's office.
3 MR. ADKINS: -- 75. 3 And again, ongoing narrative of what the officers
4 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Those are incident -- Those 4 are doing. And then the actual incident report by
5 are actually reports, right? 5 Officer J. Lloyd of the assault itself --
6 A. No. They appear to be calls for service. 6 Q. Okay.
7 Q. What about the narratives in there? What 7 A. -- documenting the assault.
8 are those? 8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. I don't believe there's narratives in here. 9 MR. ADKINS: No further questions.
10 Q. No, not in there. Those are calls for 10 MR. ROGERS: Reserve my questions
11 service, correct? 11 till the time of trial.
12 A. Yes. 12 MS. KHARMATS: Same.
13 Q. And what -- You're referring to 75, 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right.
14 correct? 14 Well, this brings us to the conclusion of the
15 A. Yes, sir. This is 75. 15 Albert Ortiz deposition. The time is 5:59 p.m., and
16 Q. Okay. And what about in 8 -- 16 we are off the record.
17 A. Those are -- 17 (Deposition concluded.)
18 Q. -- 85? 18 -o0o-
19 A. -- the backup reports in more detail beyond 19
20 calls for service. 20
21 Q. What's that right there? Is -- 21
22 A. This one? 22
23 Q. Yeah. Is that a narrative? 23
24 A. This is an incident report, a theft. 24
25 MR. ROGERS: 00077. And -- 25
Page 299 Page 301
1 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What type of report is 1 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE
2 that? 2 WITNESS NAME: ______ DATE OF DEPOSITION: _______
3 MR. ROGERS: -- it's in Volume 1 of 3 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON FOR CHANGE
4 3. 4 ____________________________________________________
5 THE WITNESS: It's theft. 5 ____________________________________________________
6 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) What kind of report, 6 ____________________________________________________
7 though, would you call it? 7 ____________________________________________________
8 A. An incident report. 8 ____________________________________________________
9 Q. Okay. 9 ____________________________________________________
10 A. It may be a supplemental report. Let me 10 ____________________________________________________
11 check. 11 ____________________________________________________
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Two-and-a-half. 12 ____________________________________________________
13 THE WITNESS: It's the -- the 13 ____________________________________________________
14 backup report to the assault. Up front is the call 14 ____________________________________________________
15 for service for an assault here. 15 ____________________________________________________
16 Q. (By Mr. Adkins) Uh-huh. 16 ____________________________________________________
17 A. And then the ongoing narrative by the 17 ____________________________________________________
18 dispatcher. 18 ____________________________________________________
19 Q. Can you hold that up while you're -- 19 ____________________________________________________
20 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 20 ____________________________________________________
21 Q. -- to the camera -- 21 ____________________________________________________
22 A. Yeah. 22 ____________________________________________________
23 Q. -- and -- and explain what each one is? 23 ____________________________________________________
24 A. The first page is just a call for service 24 ____________________________________________________
25 as an assault -- that was received in Galveston 25 ____________________________________________________
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1 I, ALBERT ORTIZ, have read the 1 testimony given by the witness;
2 foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature 2 That the deposition transcript was
3 that same is true and correct, except as noted 3 submitted on the ___ day of ____________, 2011, to
4 above. 4 RICK F. ROGERS at his address for examination,
5
5 signature, and return to MAXENE WEINBERG AGENCY,
6
7 6 Corporate Office, 27281 Las Ramblas, Suite 160,
8 7 Mission Viejo, California 92691 by the ___ day of
9 _______________________________ 8 ___________, 2011;
ALBERT ORTIZ 9 That the amount of time used by
10 10 each party at the deposition is as follows:
11 THE STATE OF ____________ ) 11 PIERCE M. ADKINS, 5 hours, 58 minutes used;
12 THE COUNTY OF ___________ ) 12 RICK F. ROGERS, 0 hours, 1 minute used;
13 13 NATALIYA KHARMATS, 0 hours, 0 minutes.
14 Before me, _______________________, 14 That pursuant to information given
15 on this day personally appeared ALBERT ORTIZ, known
16 to me to be the person whose name is subscribed to 15 to the deposition officer at the time said testimony
17 the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that 16 was taken, the following includes counsel for all
18 they executed the same for the purpose and 17 parties of record;
19 consideration therein expressed. 18 PIERCE M. ADKINS & BRADLEY L. LEGER
20 Given under my hand and seal of 19 Attorneys for Plaintiffs;
21 office this _____ day of __________, A.D., 2011. 20 NOMAAN HUSAIN & NATALIYA KHARMATS
22 21 Attorneys for Defendant ABHI Enterprises, Inc.,
23 22 d/b/a Galveston Citgo Stop;
24 _____________________________________ 23 RICK F. ROGERS
Notary Public in and for the
25 State of _____________
24 Attorney for Defendant Stripes, LLC, successor by
My commission expires: _____________ 25 merger of SSP Partners f/k/a SSP Properties, VIII,
Page 303 Page 305
1 CAUSE NO. 09CV2313 1 LP, & Susser Petroleum Company, LLC, f/k/a Susser
2 MOSAMMAT SHAHINA RAZU, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
Individually, as Wrongful ) 2 Petroleum Management Company, LLC, successor by
3 Death Beneficiary of ABDUL ) 3 merger of Susser Petroleum, LP.
H. MEJE, deceased, and As ) 4 I further certify that I am neither
4 Next Friend of MOHAMMED )
MEJE, a Minor, as Wrongful ) 5 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
5 Death Beneficiary, and Heir) 6 parties in the action in which this proceeding was
Of the Estate of ABDUL ) 7 taken, and further that I am not financially or
6 H. MEJE )
Plaintiffs, ) 8 otherwise interested in the outcome of the action;
7 ) 9 Further certification requirements
VS. ) GALVESTON COUNTY, TEXAS 10 pursuant to Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to
8 )
ABHI ENTERPRISES, INC., ) 11 after they have occurred.
9 d/b/a GALVESTON CITGO STOP,) 12 Certified to by me this ___ day of
STRIPES, LLC, successor by ) 13 _____________, 2011.
10 merger of SSP PARTNERS )
f/k/a SSP PROPERTIES, VIII,) 14
11 LP, & SUSSER PETROLEUM ) 15 ____________________________________
COMPANY, LLC, f/k/a ) JULIE VERASTEGUI, Texas CSR 7637
12 SUSSER PETROLEUM MANAGEMENT)
COMPANY, LLC, successor by ) 16 Expiration Date: 12/31/12
13 merger of SUSSER ) Firm Registration No. 93
PETROLEUM, LP ) 17 Maxene Weinberg Agency
14 Defendants. ) 10TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
15 27281 Las Ramblas, Suite 160
16 18 Mission Viejo, CA 92691
REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION PHONE: 800-640-1949
17 DEPOSITION OF ALBERT ORTIZ
FEBRUARY 14, 2011 19 FAX: 949.582.8569
18 20
19 21
20 I, JULIE VERASTEGUI, Certified
21 Court Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby 22
22 certify to the following: 23
23 That the witness, ALBERT ORTIZ, was 24
24 duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of
25 the oral & video deposition is a true record of the 25
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1 FURTHER CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP
2 The original deposition of ALBERT
3 ORTIZ, was / was not returned to the deposition
4 officer on _____________________;
5 If returned, the attached Changes
6 and Signature page contains any changes and the
7 reasons therefor;
8 If returned, the original
9 deposition was delivered to MR. PIERCE M. ADKINS,
10 the Custodial Attorney;
11 That $___________ is the deposition
12 officer's charges to the Plaintiffs for preparing
13 the original deposition transcript and any copies of
14 exhibits;
15 That the deposition was delivered
16 in accordance with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of
17 this certificate was served on all parties shown
18 herein on and filed with the Clerk.
19 Certified to by me this __________
20 day of ____________, 2011.
21
22 ____________________________________
JULIE VERASTEGUI, Texas CSR 7637
23 Expiration Date: 12/31/12
24 27281 Las Ramblas, Suite 160
Mission Viejo, CA 92691
25 PHONE: 800-640-1949
FAX: 949.582.8569
78 (Page 306)
(800) 640-1949
33eabb6e-d288-4c90-b5e4-bd9ba0081819

Deposition of Premises Security Expert Albert Ortiz

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Deposition of Premises Security Expert Albert Ortiz

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Page 1

CAUSE NO. 09CV2313

MOSAMMAT SHAHINA RAZU, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT

THE ORAL & VIDEO DEPOSITION OF

ALBERT ORTIZ, produced as a witness at the instance

of the Plaintiffs, and duly sworn, was taken in the

above-styled and numbered cause on the 14th day of

February, 2011 from 10:06 a.m. to 5:59 p.m., before

JULIE VERASTEGUI, CSR in and for the State of Texas,

Maxene Weinberg Agency

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