ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?

" with @janwebb21 username ICTmagic janwebb21 time 20:00 20:00 status My class have just been and got back their SATs and I can say that they do not reflect the ability of the children. #ukedchat @oldandrewuk is that no as in we need exams to measure learning? #ukedchat RT @janwebb21: #ukedchat Welcome to tonight's ukedchat - Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach???? It's 8pm, #ukedchat tonight "Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 effectively a two year experiment in education for the GCSE syllabus. #ukedchat RT @ICTmagic: Don't think there is one blanket method to accurately assess progress which covers all subjects - including written tests. #ukedchat surely we are attempting to move away from an exam based approach by using APP #ukedchat

oldandrewuk ukedchat john_at_muuua

20:00 20:00 20:01

Stephen_Logan surferskill oldandrewuk janwebb21 coopsonia

20:01 20:01

Stephen_Logan Natty08

20:01 @janwebb21 At the very least you need some kind of test #ukedchat RT @coopsonia: #ukedchat everyday we assess the progress of learners 20:01 and use it to develop next steps #ukedchat everyday we assess the progress of learners and use it to 20:01 develop next steps RT @CreativeEdu: About to join @janwebb21 for #ukedchat to discuss "Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven 20:01 approach?" 20:01 @ICTmagic sad state of affairs :( #ukedchat Hi all. Isn't the irony that Mr Gove has declared all the new GCSEs 20:01 defunct from 2012 BECAUSE the have no terminal exam #ukedchat RT @ICTmagic: My class have just been and got back their SATs and I can 20:01 say that they do not reflect the ability of the children. #ukedchat RT @janwebb21: @oldandrewuk is that no as in we need exams to 20:01 measure learning? #ukedchat 20:01 @janwebb21 No. #ukedchat 20:02 I find APP is just a written form of what I already know #ukedchat @surferskill How's that working for you? we've done it, it works great, 20:02 but we seem to be the only example of success. #ukedchat 20:02 #ukedchat @janwebb21 Not really, it depends what you are assessing! @janwebb21 Would love to be able to send off to the powers that be a 20:02 cover of genuine unaided class work. #ukedchat #ukedchat APP is hard work but is a start Good skills based assessment 20:02 esp Science. I think it depends on which phase we're talking about. In primary 20:02 definitely yes, at the end of secondary? I'm inclined to say no. #ukedchat Page 1 of 33

john_at_muuua

janwebb21 oldandrewuk oldandrewuk GaryAveryICT

john_at_muuua PivotalEllie ICTmagic 55m1th

tim7168

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 janwebb21 coopsonia janwebb21 RT @surferskill: surely we are attempting to move away from an exam 20:02 based approach by using APP #ukedchat #ukedchat when APP is used successfully this can be a way of measuring 20:02 progress in many areas without exams @oldandrewuk but is a test always the most effective form of 20:02 assessment? #ukedchat @ICTmagic That is a shame My son's school prizes have just been announced. noone has a clue what the criteria are, inc teachers 20:02 #ukedchat @Natty08 It is. But funny thing is that across the class the averages even 20:03 out mostly, but no comfort for individuals. #ukedchat RT @barton1875: #ukedchat of course you can. Increased motivation, increased attendance. Use of success criteria feeding into app etc @ukedchat @janwebb21 No need for exams if AFL is used properly and well. @SheliBB I agree! #ukedchat #ukedchat of course you can. Increased motivation, increased attendance. Use of success criteria feeding into app etc

PivotalEllie

ICTmagic

janwebb21 SheliBB janwebb21 barton1875

20:03 20:03 20:03 20:03

janwebb21 USCTeacher mikeatedji

@surferskill but if exams are the form of assessment that's preferred at 20:03 much higher levels then that approach filters down #ukedchat 20:03 Hi Everyone! What is the #ukedchat topic today? RT @surferskill: surely we are attempting to move away from an exam 20:03 based approach by using APP #ukedchat in #UKEDChat "Is it possible to measure successful learning without an 20:03 exam-driven approach?" and of course it is but measuring is so 90s. RT @ICTmagic: Don't think there is one blanket method to accurately assess progress which covers all subjects - including written tests. 20:03 #ukedchat 20:03 Don't exams primarily test how good you are at exams? #ukedchat RT @mikeatedji: @janwebb21 Exam s surely very limited in extent of 20:04 what they test #ukedchat What is successful learning?? Passing tests or being all you can be (and 20:04 more) #ukedchat tonight's #ukedchat topic is: Is it possible to measure successful learning 20:04 without an exam-driven approach? hosted by @janweb21 @mikeatedji exactly! (please remember the hashtag!) #ukedchat #ukedchat children love to have and achieve their targets too @ukedchat Thanks! @PivotalEllie What prize did he get? #ukedchat RT @CreativeEdu: Don't exams primarily test how good you are at 20:04 exams? #ukedchat @SheliBB the problem we have is that exams only favour a small 20:04 minority #ukedchat 20:04 20:04 20:04 20:04 Page 2 of 33

SofiyaKatsunova

Comprof1 CreativeEdu janwebb21 GaryAveryICT

CreativeEdu janwebb21 55m1th USCTeacher ICTmagic mikeatedji janwebb21

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 ukedchat PivotalEllie @USCTeacher "Is it possible to measure successful learning without an 20:04 exam-driven approach?" #ukedchat @barton1875 Yes I agree. Self-assessment and self-target setting can 20:04 massively increase motivation. #ukedchat @CreativeEdu totally. we teach 'exam technique' constantly. Some get 20:04 confused by the question and fail for that alone. #ukedchat 20:05 @PivotalEllie Ah yes, the invisible middle. #ukedchat #ukedchat unfortunately APP is not officially being rolled out in 20:05 foundation subjects. I like it because it looks at skills not knowledge RT @GaryAveryICT: I find APP is just a written form of what I already 20:05 know #ukedchat 20:05 @ICTmagic I think that is very unfair on the individuals. #ukedchat RT @SheliBB: @ukedchat @janwebb21 No need for exams if AFL is used 20:05 properly and well. RT @surferskill: an approach is needed that expands across key stages 20:05 to allow for consistency and understanding #ukedchat Rumour? Did Gove really say recently that he wanted to rid education of 20:05 creativity? surely not! #ukedchat @ICTmagic He didn't! #ukedchat None of the middle of the road kids 20:05 did. Just the badly behaved & the massively pushed. an approach is needed that expands across key stages to allow for 20:05 consistency and understanding #ukedchat #ukedchat if there were no exams how would schools be judged? Just 20:05 asking?! @GaryAveryICT used excel to create a live system for APP. We enter the levels for the English AFs and it does the rest. #ukedchat RT @GaryAveryICT: What is successful learning?? Passing tests or being all you can be (and more) #ukedchat @janwebb21 @oldandrewuk #ukedchat AfL is the best form of assessment. Very effective for teacher and pupil. Allows planning 4 next target APP is one of the things that is now optional according to the white paper...(or have I read it wrong) #ukedchat @john_at_muuua or over prepare and answer the question they're expecting rather than the one they got! #ukedchat RT @GaryAveryICT: What is successful learning?? Passing tests or being all you can be (and more) #ukedchat RT @mikeatedji: But how do HE institutions decide who should be accepted if no exams? Is there another way of sorting? #ESDGC#ukedchat

john_at_muuua ICTmagic

coopsonia natachakennedy PivotalEllie john_at_muuua janwebb21 PostFilm PivotalEllie surferskill astirrup34

john_at_muuua janwebb21

20:05 20:05

cherrylkd GaryAveryICT CreativeEdu oldandrewuk

20:06 20:06 20:06 20:06

mikeatedji

20:06

Comprof1 ukedchat CreativeEdu

RT @ICTmagic: My class have just been and got back their SATs and I can 20:06 say that they do not reflect the ability of the children. #ukedchat 20:06 #ukedchat T.A. = Teacher assessment (BTW) 20:06 what are the real alternatives to an exam driven approach? #ukedchat Page 3 of 33

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 Ton of ways to measure success - also a ton of diff ways to measure 20:06 what success is - we need to know what we're measuring first #ukedchat @PostFilm I really hope that has been exaggerated on the grapevine! 20:06 #ukedchat 20:06 @PostFilm sounds like him! #ukedchat #ukedchat - Will the politicians be brave enough to get rid of the 20:06 accountability agenda? If not, we are left with exams. No-one trusts T.A. @janwebb21 Yes agreed- it favours those who are good at exams! AFL 20:06 shows children's true ability, more naturally #ukedchat @CreativeEdu alternatives are the day-to-day assessment practices that 20:07 go on in many classrooms #ukedchat @SheliBB Exactly. I can reccommend a great book on assessment by 20:07 @pivotalpaul http://bit.ly/orLvMx #ukedchat 20:07 #ukedchat exams don't test resilience, which is best indicator of success @PivotalEllie It's wrong to give prizes for the sake of it, but every child 20:07 should be considered. Don't think that happens. #ukedchat 20:07 @GaryAveryICT totally correct. Ofsted don't care about it. #ukedchat 20:07 @PostFilm where was that?! #ukedchat @GaryAveryICT Obvious straw man there. Nobody suggests that exams 20:07 are the purpose of education #ukedchat @john_at_muuua surely AFL could be implemented throughout the 20:07 education system #ukedchat Inspections? RT @astirrup34 #ukedchat if there were no exams how 20:07 would schools be judged? Just asking?! @astirrup34 can we have enough rigor to ensure that reporting is honest and fair - we need to know if the school is meeting need 20:07 #ukedchat #ukedchat in Higher Ed reasons for exams were (1) difficult to plagiarize 20:07 (2) good test of ability to work under pressure (3) quick to mark do 'the public' trust teachers to mark accurately? That seems to be why 20:07 it's taken from us and given to exam boards #ukedchat @surferskill totally agree. but again, do people trust us to do that? 20:08 #ukedchat RT @PivotalEllie: @SheliBB Exactly. I can reccommend a great book on 20:08 assessment by @pivotalpaul http://bit.ly/orLvMx #ukedchat What could be done to improve faith in teacher assessment #ukedchat 20:08 @ukedchat I've seen huge inconsistencies... @ukedchat is accountability a bad thing?!!! just the current way of 20:08 measuring it isn't the best? #ukedchat #ukedchat I think we don't explore the idea of ePortfolios enough. We 20:08 could have a mix of some exams and self-promoting materials. Page 4 of 33

USCTeacher PivotalEllie john_at_muuua

ukedchat

SheliBB SheliBB PivotalEllie mikeatedji

ICTmagic john_at_muuua janwebb21 oldandrewuk surferskill hilldwellertom1

janwebb21

PostFilm john_at_muuua john_at_muuua

PivotalErica CreativeEdu janwebb21

andyhampton

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 Sundayteatime oldandrewuk #ukedchat internal assessment is a lot more work for teachers than 20:08 external exams. RT @janwebb21: @oldandrewuk but is a test always the most effective 20:08 form of assessment? #ukedchat @PostFilm Very true, but now with so many different forms of 20:08 technology, might we try some different approaches? #ukedchat 20:08 #ukedchat (4) but -6% compared to coursework #ukedchat it may be a while before parents can accept APP in place of 20:08 'proper' tests @Sundayteatime 'controlled assessment' is much the same. Feels like 20:09 'controlled' means the teachers can't cheat. #ukedchat @ICTmagic yes, I agree. Prize givings can actually be detrimental. 20:09 #ukedchat Teacher assessment surely can't be used at the end of education, 20:09 wouldn't be fair for them to rank their students surely? #ukedchat @janwebb21 We all need to be accountable, but the forms of 20:09 measuring need to be questioned #ukedchat @john_at_muuua @PostFilm not as good as the statement at 20:09 #educationfest11 - teachers to have time for procreating #ukedchat 20:09 @CreativeEdu #ukedchat Practice...let it embed for a while @oldandrewuk it was more a recognition that our view and the 20:09 establishment view are different #ukedchat straw man?? like it @john_at_muuua If teachers do a great job, trust will be earned 20:09 eventually - may take time #ukedchat #ukedchat I didn't take real pride in my classwork compared to my pride 20:09 at passing exams. Measure me... @55m1th isnt APP the same as a 'proper' test for parents it still gives a 20:09 grade at the end of the day?#ukedchat @CreativeEdu #ukedchat Agreed. They did for me. Test of memory 20:09 rather than in-depth knowledge and understanding @SheliBB Until school performance and threat of Ofsted for bad results 20:10 is lifted the temptation to cheat to ever present. #ukedchat There are people on #ukedchat who still believe in A.P.P. Why am I still 20:10 surprised? @mikeatedji #ukedchat I think students have to be very resilient to sit 20:10 through all those module exams. 20:10 @tim7168 could possibly lead to favouritism? #ukedchat @ukedchat exactly! and the issue felt by many is that the emphasis on 20:10 tests/exams is undue #ukedchat @SheliBB Problem is that gov doesn't trust them and they are too easy 20:10 to abuse by a tiny minority. #ukedchat @CreativeEdu Totally agree #ukedchat Perhaps more vigorous 20:10 moderation between schools? Across similar phases?

USCTeacher PostFilm 55m1th

john_at_muuua PivotalEllie

tim7168 ukedchat

janwebb21 mikeatedji

GaryAveryICT USCTeacher davidhunter surferskill cherrylkd

ICTmagic oldandrewuk Sundayteatime surferskill janwebb21 ICTmagic ukedchat

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 PivotalEllie I found this article on measuring success without stifling teacher 20:11 creativity: http://bit.ly/eap4eX #ukedchat @oldandrewuk if the approach to measuring learning is through exams, how can we ensure we measure effectively using other means? 20:11 #ukedchat #ukedchat The current exam system is advocated by politicians who 20:11 were served well by the system (although they were coached)?!? #ukedchat one size does NOT fit all. Exams can be soul-destroying for 20:11 anyone. Can't see many realistic alternatives. RT @genkijen: #ukedchat does anyone have an electronic copy of english sats mark scheme 2011 or can scan in and mail? Urgent!! 20:11 Thanks please RT x 20:11 @andyhampton Quite right. #ukedchat #ukedchat - principal difficulty is when exams become "high stakes" 20:11 Then they become the end rather than the means of assessment @surferskill Exactly, or generally it's just an unfair burden, there needs 20:11 to be an element of competition at the end I think. #ukedchat #ukedchat it would help if we took the emphasis off exams by getting 20:11 rid of leagues tables. England only nation in uk that still has them. RT @CreativeEdu: What could be done to improve faith in teacher 20:12 assessment #ukedchat @ukedchat I've seen huge inconsistencies... @SheliBB Gov can't believe that we actually want the children to do well 20:12 and would do our best without the sanctions. #ukedchat RT @andyhampton: #ukedchat I think we don't explore the idea of ePortfolios enough. We could have a mix of some exams and self20:12 promoting materials. RT @Sundayteatime: #ukedchat internal assessment is a lot more work 20:12 for teachers than external exams. 20:12 @ukedchat True of most people's opinions about education #ukedchat @Sundayteatime #ukedchat True but we could practice reilience in far 20:12 more creative ways! @tim7168 #ukedchat you can imagine the potential for abuse on 20:12 teachers if they were assessing. Bribes/violence @oldandrewuk I believe in APP ONLY because we forced it to work 20:12 really well. We use it despite it not being statutory. #ukedchat @john_at_muuua it is like everything though, nobody gives teachers 20:12 enough trust for our abilities...would come under scurtiny #ukedchat 20:12 @astirrup34 #ukedchat teacher assessment, AfL and APP RT @ukedchat: #ukedchat The current exam system is advocated by politicians who were served well by the system (although they were 20:12 coached)?!? Page 6 of 33

janwebb21

ukedchat sh_hanes

JoanneC23 PivotalEllie

mikeatedji

tim7168

andyhampton

janwebb21

ICTmagic

janwebb21 janwebb21 tim7168 mikeatedji andyhampton

john_at_muuua

surferskill cherrylkd

tim7168

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 CreativeEdu PivotalEllie Sundayteatime GaryAveryICT @ukedchat moderation definitely makes a huge difference - even 20:12 WITHIN a school - though your idea is better! #ukedchat #ukedchat There are clearly two things going on here - internal, ongoing 20:13 assessment & external qualifications/national testing. 20:13 @mikeatedji #ukedchat 9 hour exams? ;-) the problem with exams is the grade goalposts move depending on the 20:13 government it's never like for like#ukedchat RT @janwebb21: @oldandrewuk if the approach to measuring learning is through exams, how can we ensure we measure effectively using 20:13 other means? #ukedchat @cherrylkd - I don't think exams r about memory; History ones I deal 20:13 with certainly aren't - sources mostly not seen b4, #ukedchat RT @ICTmagic: @SheliBB Gov can't believe that we actually want the children to do well and would do our best without the sanctions. 20:13 #ukedchat 20:13 @surferskill I think it is... #ukedchat #ukedchat @ukedchat #ukedchat We should trust TA. No point in training teachers 20:13 to high level if there's no trust. But this Govt doesn't trust us! @sh_hanes do real alternatives exist? Not just assessment/APP, but 20:13 something else in another country maybe? #ukedchat @ukedchat What would you change about current exam system? 20:13 #ukedchat @sh_hanes Maybe exams could come in different formats/different 20:13 layouts - writing based vs not, vocal or group-based #ukedchat @tim7168 definitely towards the real life scenarios they will encounter 20:13 #ukedchat @davidhunter exams favoured me, too but what about the large numbers where it doesnt - how to let them show true learning? 20:14 #ukedchat @ICTmagic Yes - agree. It's unfair that schools are judged this way (sats) 20:14 especially schools with transient population #ukedchat @ICTmagic @SheliBB Teachers' ideas might be contrary to those 20:14 developing the curriculum.#ukedchat 20:14 @andyhampton @tim7168 only from parent governors ;-) #ukedchat I think this discussion is too broad, are we talking about assessment 20:14 throughout school or GCSE? There's a difference I think #ukedchat @janwebb21 #ukedchat let the practice become embedded for more 20:14 than a nanosecond @janwebb21 this is where some secondary GCSEs have got it right with 20:15 a mixture of coursework and exam, allowing both to shine #ukedchat 20:15 @tim7168 why not if there was rigor and scrutiny? #ukedchat

oldandrewuk

mattbuxton10

john_at_muuua janwebb21

cherrylkd

john_at_muuua PivotalErica

USCTeacher surferskill

janwebb21

SheliBB Comprof1 john_at_muuua

tim7168 mikeatedji

surferskill janwebb21

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 mikeatedji CreativeEdu john_at_muuua #ukedchat also exams fail to assess collaborative learning which is how 20:15 post school learning is often accomplished 20:15 What are the BENEFITS of an exam based system? #ukedchat @ukedchat moreover, the people shouting for reform have rarely been 20:15 in a real school. #ukedchat #ukedchat The children are becoming so well informed re assessment 20:15 that they are very good at completing their 'child friendly' APP grids @USCTeacher #ukedchat we only seem to offer 2 routes re exams. Pass or fail. More tiers of papers/ controlled assessment might help. RT @surferskill: @john_at_muuua it is like everything though, nobody gives teachers enough trust for our abilities...would come under scurtiny #ukedchat @surferskill A real inspection system would solve this. Not what we have now. #ukedchat @USCTeacher do we have time given the current political climate and will? #ukedchat

55m1th

sh_hanes

20:15

karliva89 john_at_muuua janwebb21

20:15 20:15 20:15

PivotalEllie

@cherrylkd There is a lot of potential for abuse of the system if the 20:15 teachers have full charge - would you want that onus on you?#ukedchat @PivotalEllie #ukedchat As assessment manager in spec sch I have that 20:16 reps. All our tchrs assess responsibly as they have new targets 2 meet #ukedchat passing exams is an important life skill. You can't pass your 20:16 driving test by internal assessment. @mikeatedji I agree but will the political climate let us have more than a 20:16 nanosecond #ukedchat Teachers in our school dislike APP because we already had rigorous(and 20:16 accurate)assessment methods. It just increased our workload #ukedchat @sh_hanes #ukedchat I think that's only as a result of gov emphasis on 20:16 floor standards. Proper exams should have full range of outcomes @USCTeacher @sh_hanes Yes, ideally ths shld happen. Eg new functional skills eng exams R teacher assessed -presentation/discussion 20:16 #ukedchat The exam boards where the marking is mostly done by teachers, ex20:16 teachers etc. @john_at_muuu #UKEdChat ?? 20:16 @Comprof1 Don't think there's much doubt about that. #ukedchat #ukedchat inconsistency could be an issue but maybe e-portfolios would 20:16 allow some kind of checking? @USCTeacher haven't we had enough time to prove ourselves yet? 20:17 #ukedchat @Sundayteatime damn shame as it took me 4 times to the disbelief of 20:17 my teacher! #ukedchat #ukedchat and children love to set their own learning targets from APP 20:17 too. Not sure how any of this works in secondary tho

cherrylkd Sundayteatime janwebb21

SheliBB

tim7168

PivotalEllie SofiyaKatsunova ICTmagic coopsonia john_at_muuua CreativeEdu 55m1th

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 A lot of teachers like to rely on S.A.T.s (optional!) testing to help them 20:17 *confirm* their own judgement! What is all that about? #ukedchat 20:17 @SheliBB but are you the exception rather than the norm? #ukedchat @oldandrewuk I disagree - look at the moderation that happens with 20:17 eyfs for example #ukedchat @janwebb21 Would you want the pressure of deciding which children 20:17 were most successful in your class? #ukedchat Problem with only TA is that to be really effective the levels need to be so tightly defined 2 ensure fairness; defeats the point? #ukedchat @tim7168 #ukedchat can be difficult when primary&secondary want to chat. That is not a bad thing. RT @surferskill: @Sundayteatime yes, but a driving test is practical as it is a practical skill, surely there are better ways to test practically? #ukedchat @surferskill so what about disappearing coursework elements #ukedchat @cherrylkd #ukedchat That is really good - this should be the ideal. I guess. How are the teachers targets monitored?

ukedchat CreativeEdu janwebb21 tim7168

mattbuxton10 sh_hanes

20:17 20:17

mikeatedji janwebb21 PivotalEllie

20:18 20:18 20:18

oldandrewuk tim7168 SheliBB GaryAveryICT

@janwebb21 Not familiar with it, but my experience of moderation of 20:18 assessment in schools is that it is a complete joke. #ukedchat @sh_hanes No, but I think in this case a lot of discussion is cross20:18 purpose. #ukedchat @Comprof1 @ICTmagic Yes - teachers should be listened to about their 20:18 ideas for assessment #ukedchat 20:18 @ukedchat not really teachers... more schools ethos.. @Sundayteatime yes, but a driving test is practical as it is a practical 20:18 skill, surely there are better ways to test practically? #ukedchat @tim7168 I know who are the most successful children in my class 20:18 whatever age I have taught #ukedchat RT @GaryAveryICT: the problem with exams is the grade goalposts 20:19 move depending on the government it's never like for like#ukedchat #ukedchat I don't think I'd trust teacher assessment to judge a school. 20:19 We don't need any more pressure. Need exam boards that get it right! If you plan well, and embed continuous assessment, perhaps using APP 20:19 well, then why not? End of ks4 may require something more #ukedchat @oldandrewuk qualitative approach to assessment in eyfs is well 20:19 embedded and respected #ukedchat RT @ukedchat A lot of teachers like to rely on S.A.T.s testing to help 20:19 them *confirm* their own judgement! #ukedchat <Why is that bad? 20:19 what's the topic please? #ukedchat

surferskill janwebb21

janwebb21

astirrup34

Dunfordjames janwebb21

KnikiDavies MrsPrentice11

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 Dunfordjames #ukedchat it would require politicians and the public to really trust us as 20:19 professionals. Bit of a long shot! Do we think that formal summative assessment belongs in primary schools? Coursework is acceptable for secondary. Why not primary? 20:19 #ukedchat @GaryAveryICT So schools have a mistrust on their own teachers 20:19 judgements? #ukedchat @CreativeEdu maybe we are - but some of the schools I've been in have 20:19 so much emphasis on planning that assessment suffers #ukedchat @janwebb21 #ukedchat Disappearing coursework really winds me up. I 20:19 think it is such a shame that we seem to be moving backwards @robsteadman @ukedchat #ukedchat They shd provide evidence 2 prove level + set new target which they are reps 4 achieving. Stops 20:19 inflated gd @tim7168 #ukedchat try telling that to someone who gets an E. Difficult 20:19 to say 'well done'. Different tier might produce B or C. Stigma? 20:19 @tim7168 agree. I'm only talking from a GCSE perspective. #ukedchat Why not use digital teaching systems that monitor students' progress, 20:19 rather than unreliable exams? #ukedchat @oldandrewuk surprised that not *everyone* shares your worldview or surprised because you think them wrong #ukedchat @oldandrewuk its quite rigorous and happens across schools in a cluster #ukedchat @tim7168 #ukedchat @sh_hanes I believe there are plans to introduce a 'super A*' too! RT @GaryAveryICT: @ukedchat of course not, they just like the additional data ;) #ukedchat @ukedchat surely in smaller schools it is easier to keep tabs on abilities, rather than in a large secondary school #ukedchat

ICTmagic ukedchat

SheliBB

PivotalEllie

cherrylkd

sh_hanes john_at_muuua Spongelab

mattpearson janwebb21 PivotalEllie ukedchat surferskill

20:19 20:19 20:20 20:20 20:20

oldandrewuk

@GaryAveryICT The point is that your "establishment view" is held by 20:20 literally nobody, least of all the establishment. #ukedchat @sh_hanes True, but that's as a result of our culture of grade inflation. 20:20 Remember when there was no A* at A-Level? #ukedchat @ICTmagic #ukedchat Coursework should be acceptable throughout. It 20:20 mirrors the sorts of challenges we often meet in the working world. 20:20 @ukedchat of course not, they just like the additional data ;) 20:20 @MrsPrentice11 New ways to assess instead of tests. #ukedchat Is Twitterfall on a go slow for anyone else tonight or is it my aged 20:20 computer giving me jip? #ukedchat

tim7168

PivotalEllie GaryAveryICT ICTmagic CreativeEdu

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 #ukedchat if you use something like Classroom Monitor as an online 20:20 assessment tool it reduces workload but maintains thoroughness. @55m1th first we translated APP to make sense to everyone, THEN we 20:20 can use it. #ukedchat 20:20 Teacher assessment is only as strong as its weakest link #ukedchat @PivotalEllie With topic/theme based learning, we produce course work 20:21 type evidence on a weekly basis at ks2. #ukedchat Rt@PivotalEllie: @tim7168 #ukedchat @sh_hanes I believe there are 20:21 plans to introduce a 'super A*' too! crazy! RT @mattpearson: @oldandrewuk surprised that not *everyone* shares 20:21 your worldview or surprised because you think them wrong #ukedchat @john_at_muuua @55m1th #ukedchat If people don't understand what 20:21 the APP criteria mean then were they teaching it all to begin with?? @astirrup34 #ukedchat if ongoing assessment genuinely formed equal 20:21 part of teaching cycle why would you not trust teachers? 20:21 @oldandrewuk really?? I am surprised #ukedchat @KnikiDavies Usually, they don't know what their judgement actually 20:21 is!?! #ukedchat #ukedchat topic tonight is: Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach? Moderated by @JanWebb21 RT @janwebb21: @oldandrewuk its quite rigorous and happens across schools in a cluster #ukedchat @ICTmagic would that help avoid the current debacle over sats marking questionability #ukedchat @PivotalEllie @sh_hanes Yes I've also heard that haha...ridiculous. #ukedchat @ukedchat Of course schools don't trust teachers. When u become a teacher you become inherently untrustworthy. Isn't this obvious? #ukedchat

andyhampton john_at_muuua nellmog ICTmagic sh_hanes

oldandrewuk

KnikiDavies

mikeatedji GaryAveryICT ukedchat

CreativeEdu oldandrewuk janwebb21 tim7168

20:21 20:21 20:21 20:21

natachakennedy

20:21

mattbuxton10 cherrylkd ICTmagic janwebb21 pivotalpaul ukedchat

@CreativeEdu - 1 Benefit of exam are test application of both skills AND 20:21 knowledge; unknown unseen content analysed in context #ukedchat @PivotalEllie #ukedchat By me! I check NC + pivats and progress and 20:21 ensure realistic progress and targets. It works 20:22 @surferskill You haven't been to *MY* classroom. ;) #ukedchat @oldandrewuk go and look!!! #ukedchat there's a lot the whole 20:22 education system can learn from eyfs @PivotalEllie @tim7168 @sh_hanes it will be called a*with distinction, 20:22 you couldn't make it up #ukedchat @natachakennedy Unfortunately, that seems to be the case 20:22 nowadays!!! #ukedchat It's TOO easy to become a teacher? @surferskill @ukedchat #ukedchat If that's true then its a fault of the 20:22 systems in sec schools. maybe sec schools need 2 relook at tutoring Page 11 of 33

PivotalEllie

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 @MrsPrentice11 RT @CreativeEdu: #ukedchat topic tonight is: Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven 20:22 approach? @ICTmagic the problem is that at primary level children are still learning new skills, whereas secondary is allowing consolidation #ukedchat @robsteadman @ukedchat #ukedchat we moderate in school, within LA and inter county as well. Very rigorous assessment #ukedchat It's the tendency to teach to the test which seems to me so deeply un-educational. @natachakennedy Of course, and a woolly-minded liberal with no idea of the outside world! #ukedchat @cherrylkd @robsteadman Sounds like that should be standard practice within the profession #ukedchat

janwebb21

surferskill cherrylkd SusanElkinJourn tim7168 ukedchat

20:22 20:22 20:22 20:22 20:23

CliveSir

@MrsPrentice11 #ukedchat topic now - Is it possible to measure 20:23 successful learning without an exam-driven approach? @janwebb21 I take your point, but are you able to grade them in line 20:23 with the rest of the country completely accurately? #ukedchat @mattpearson Surprised because A.P.P. was a mess that people 20:23 pretended to do when they had to, but is no longer required. #ukedchat 20:23 @surferskill But it could be at an appropriate level, of course. #ukedchat @KnikiDavies We have put together a doc of our AFL practices and so 20:23 are now opting out of APP #ukedchat @sh_hanes #ukedchat I know - what madness is this! Ah yes, * with 20:23 distinction - that's it! What idiots. I have met teachers who are fantastic at assessing without tests and 20:23 those who are appalling at it #ukedchat #ukedchat Warwick Mansell's book 'The Tyrany of Testing' spells it out 20:23 very well. @surferskill @ictmagic #ukedchat Kids shd still B learning new skills throughout their schooling. its sad if sec is just abt consolidation. @pivotalpaul What a mouthful. I'd call it the A**. That leaves room for the inevitable A*** later on. #ukedchat Place for exams, of course, but should be almost incidental. Exams industry has a lot to answer for. #ukedchat I have a feeling @pivotalpaul that eventually we will have A* with distinction and a flake. #UKEdChat @ukedchat Think APP came out of a mistrust of Teacher Assessment.... #ukedchat

tim7168

oldandrewuk ICTmagic SheliBB PivotalEllie MrsPrentice11 SusanElkinJourn

PivotalEllie tim7168 SusanElkinJourn SofiyaKatsunova GaryAveryICT

20:24 20:24 20:24 20:24 20:24

KnikiDavies cherrylkd

#ukedchat I assess through year using APP grids, then like to use test to 20:24 confirm levels and then an analysis grid to give to next teacher @andyhampton #ukedchat epirtfolios add beautifully to TA. Prove the 20:24 level you're claiming and prevents inflated grades

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 janwebb21 20:24 @surferskill but I have taught both - its still possible! #ukedchat Why do we ONLY assess the output ie the work/answers produced? Apart from Maths do any other subjects assess the working out?? 20:24 #ukedchat @KnikiDavies BUT this is made difficult when we are expected to bring 20:24 APP stuff to moderating (year 2) #ukedchat #ukedchat also, how can exams possibly assess attitudes or values? They 20:24 can't surely...But exams skew the learning woefully @GaryAveryICT The principles behind APP are spot on. The way it is implemented is poor, inconsistent and confused. Shame really. 20:25 #ukedchat @janwebb21 So would you replace GCSE exams with an APP 20:25 equivalent? #ukedchat RT @SofiyaKatsunova: I have a feeling @pivotalpaul that eventually we 20:25 will have A* with distinction and a flake. #UKEdChat RT @nellmog: @janwebb21 none of the subjects I teach at A'level/BTEC have exam driven approach. Its impossible to teach to test>there isn't 1 20:25 #ukedchat 20:25 @janwebb21 Could be difficult #ukedchat @KnikiDavies #ukedchat perhaps it is a transition phase and we are a 20:25 little underconfident - more experience and it will be second nature RT @janwebb21: @tim7168 As long as we are not working in isolation 20:25 as a practitioner surely we can #ukedchat 20:25 @KnikiDavies thats possibly the only real benefit of APP #ukedchat When I was a Y6 teacher, because of teachers' PRP was linked to 20:25 increase in levels, In Sept I wud get a class who were all "L5a" #ukedchat @tim7168 As long as we are not working in isolation as a practitioner 20:25 surely we can #ukedchat @janwebb21 No, but might be a halfway house Gov might accept. Really, the Gov should trust teachers & not need outside assessment. 20:25 #ukedchat #ukedchat If you use an analysis grid the next teacher knows areas of 20:25 strength and weakness and it saves starting from scratch every year @janwebb21 none of the subjects I teach at A'level/BTEC have exam 20:25 driven approach. Its impossible to teach to test>there isn't 1 #ukedchat RT @davidhunter: @janwebb21 agreed so you need both so learners 20:26 can demonstrate progress #ukedchat @mikeatedji #ukedchat I would trust teachers but not the schools to 20:26 deliver how assess should be. Eg AFL is not what should be in schools.

mattbuxton10 SheliBB

mikeatedji

ukedchat tim7168

sh_hanes

janwebb21 USCTeacher

55m1th john_at_muuua GaryAveryICT

natachakennedy janwebb21

ICTmagic

KnikiDavies

nellmog janwebb21

astirrup34

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 RT@GaryAveryICT The principles behind APP are spot on. The way it is implemented is poor, inconsistent and confused. Shame really. 20:26 #ukedchat RT @KnikiDavies: #ukedchat I assess through year using APP grids, then like to use test to confirm levels and then an analysis grid to give to next 20:26 teacher @PivotalEllie Every child (and adult) it continually consolidating what 20:26 they have learned/used before. #ukedchat @SusanElkinJourn #ukedchat I think you have hit rather a large nail on 20:26 the head. There is a real exam industry & lots of it is financial @GaryAveryICT @ukedchat perhaps, but then it worked better for us. 20:26 But i think we're the only school in our LEA that use it. #ukedchat @ukedchat That isn't the prob, it is misuse of data. PRP simply does not work, people will always work to subvert system. System is wrong @mattbuxton10 Well I suppose English does. They're supposed to be able to set out a reasoned argument. #ukedchat @sh_hanes definitely! but will take work to make such a thing happen! #ukedchat @nellmog that is such an important point!! #ukedchat @tim7168 @pivotalpaul #ukedchat Can you imagine the shame of getting a C when there is an A*** @mattbuxton10 Agree. In English the process is vital, but we only formally assess the product. #ukedchat @KnikiDavies that's a logical way to work, which we try to use too. Helps identify and work on appropriate targets. #ukedchat

CreativeEdu

Dunfordjames ICTmagic

PivotalEllie

john_at_muuua

natachakennedy SusanElkinJourn USCTeacher janwebb21 PivotalEllie john_at_muuua Dunfordjames

20:26 20:26 20:26 20:26 20:26 20:27 20:27

mattbuxton10 Sundayteatime GaryAveryICT

@SusanElkinJourn - Another one worth flicking through is 'Testing Times 20:27 - the uses & abuses of assessment' by Gordon Stobart #ukedchat 20:27 @CreativeEdu 8 times for me. It was a good lesson in failure #ukedchat 20:27 Thats why I love #ukedchat RT @PivotalEllie: @SusanElkinJourn #ukedchat I think you have hit rather a large nail on the head. There is a real exam industry & lots of it 20:27 is financial Wondering what 'successful' learning looks like? Identify that and we 20:27 can say whether exams are needed or not #ukedchat @ukedchat I like @KnikiDavies comments of APP.... Changes the 20:27 thinking slightly... Less evidence but more tracking..#ukedchat 20:27 @ICTmagic #ukedchat Yes but should continue to learn new skills too @ukedchat @robsteadman #ukedchat It's the only way with spec children who can't do exams. I think it could be used through primary up 20:27 to y9 How do teachers make the public and the government trust our 20:28 judgement? #ukedchat

SusanElkinJourn IaninSheffield

GaryAveryICT PivotalEllie

cherrylkd john_at_muuua

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 RT @IaninSheffield: Wondering what 'successful' learning looks like? Identify that and we can say whether exams are needed or not 20:28 #ukedchat @KnikiDavies #ukedchat We pass on grids - we highlight in colour and 20:28 do a b&w copy for next teacher - then highlight to show progress @GaryAveryICT Oh I don't use APP for that, I put in the scores from the 20:28 test and there are grids that do lovely graphs etc with it #ukedchat I got an A in my GCSE history mock. I'd written one sentence but my 20:28 charlatan teacher decided it was what I was worth... strange! #ukedchat #ukedchat seriously, if a magic wand released you from the tyranny of grades wouldnt you leap for joy. You could still ensure progress started making AFL blog http://t.co/LaDuPGX on account of @tomhenzley's NQT tips. Be grateful for anything anyone has to share #ukedchat @davidhunter Do exams pander to those who will use data as a weapon or do they give quality evidence on which to base judgements? #ukedchat @astirrup34 @mikeatedji #ukedchat Why do you not think that AfL should be in schools?

janwebb21

55m1th

KnikiDavies

CreativeEdu

mikeatedji

20:28

SheliBB

20:28

janwebb21 PivotalEllie ICTmagic

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mattbuxton10 CreativeEdu sh_hanes oldandrewuk janwebb21 pivotalpaul

PivotalEllie

20:28 @PivotalEllie Yes, of course, and hopefully never stop. #ukedchat @SusanElkinJourn - but a reasoned argument is still an output, what about assessing the actual construction of it? @john_at_muuua 20:29 #ukedchat In your experience do exams tend to accurately reflect abilities or do 20:29 some kids do surprisingly well / poorly #ukedchat @mikeatedji #ukedchat the parents would want to measure the 20:29 progress of their children even if gov gave up! @KnikiDavies Well that will work well as long as children's abilities don't 20:29 change from year to year... #ukedchat 20:29 please remember to use the hashtag guys! #ukedchat 20:29 @CreativeEdu and the sentence? #ukedchat RT @mikeatedji: #ukedchat seriously, if a magic wand released you from the tyranny of grades wouldnt you leap for joy. You could still ensure 20:29 progress @Sundayteatime wow... that makes me look like a pro! everyone I knew 20:29 was delighted to see me fail! they thought it was hilarious! #ukedchat #ukedchat the prob is simply that tests are not REALLY used to assess 20:29 pupils progress, they are used to assess teachers. This is wrong. @PivotalEllie #ukedchat Terrible mistake to take testing away from 20:29 impartial universities & give it to commercial companies eg publishers.

CreativeEdu

natachakennedy

SusanElkinJourn

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 RT @KnikiDavies: #ukedchat If you use an analysis grid the next teacher knows areas of strength and weakness and it saves starting from scratch 20:29 every year @MrsPrentice11 #ukedchat it all comes down to moderation within 20:30 school, in LA and inter county. That works well @sh_hanes Teacher assessment can continue without formal external 20:30 testing. #ukedchat @PivotalEllie @astirrup34 @mikeatedji AFL has always been used. 20:30 We've just given it a new name cause we luv acronyms! #ukedchat @natachakennedy Yes! Big agree! Who ever agrees totally with sats 20:30 results? Not I! #ukedchat @john_at_muuua Very true! ...if we never push the boundaries, we'll 20:30 never know! #ukedchat RT @nellmog: @janwebb21 I love teaching creative subjects :) The IV of 20:30 work and Moderation is vital in these subjects though.#ukedchat 20:30 @natachakennedy Agree totally. #ukedchat @GaryAveryICT #ukedchat For literacy we do an assessed piece each 20:30 term and I just highlight the APP sheet per child. Very quick n simple #ukedchat Is it not true that IQ tests don't measure IQ, they just 20:30 measure how good you are at IQ tests? Doesn't this have wider truth? 20:30 @Sundayteatime failure or building resilience?! #ukedchat 20:30 RT @janwebb21: please remember to use the hashtag guys! #ukedchat RT @john_at_muuua: @mikeatedji removing grade tyranny would take a massive change of mindset for everyone, even the kids. #ukedchat @mikeatedji removing grade tyranny would take a massive change of mindset for everyone, even the kids. #ukedchat @GaryAveryICT huh? #ukedchat @john_at_muuua it's the process that makes the learning and that is what gets missed in the measurement #ukedchat #ukedchat Consistenmtly the best ed system in the world, Finland, has NO tests/exams until you get to college. @janwebb21 It was a comment suggesting that my thinking changes when I use ukedchat...Probably random.. sorry

oldandrewuk cherrylkd ICTmagic

john_at_muuua SheliBB USCTeacher

janwebb21 SusanElkinJourn

KnikiDavies

PivotalEllie janwebb21 ukedchat

natachakennedy john_at_muuua janwebb21 janwebb21 natachakennedy GaryAveryICT

20:30 20:30 20:30 20:31 20:31 20:31

PivotalEllie

mikeatedji

@SusanElkinJourn #ukedchat Agree. And they fund and finance 'good' 20:31 things in schools too, so it makes them indispensable- or so gov think? RT @PivotalEllie: #ukedchat Is it not true that IQ tests don't measure IQ, they just measure how good you are at IQ tests? Doesn't this have wider 20:31 truth? RT @sh_hanes: @mikeatedji #ukedchat the parents would want to 20:31 measure the progress of their children even if gov gave up! @oldandrewuk #ukedchat It's certainly a good starting point for 20:31 September if, say, percentages shows up as a weakness Page 16 of 33

oldandrewuk KnikiDavies

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 mikeatedji @john_at_muuua #ukedchat and grade inflation may make this 20:31 outcome more likely if there is concerted pressure *idealist* @pivotalpaul same teacher who used to turn a blind eye through me 20:31 sleeping in his class as i 'caused less trouble that way' !!! #ukedchat SEVENTY SEVEN presenters scheduled for #RSCON3, excl keynotes! 20:32 Fantastic!! #edchat #ukedchat @janwebb21 - people who want to use data as a weapon will do so 20:32 however it's arrived at!?! #ukedchat #ukedchat Missing the debate tonight - maybe able to do next week. Any chance of reviewing Ofsteds comments on School Sport 20:32 Partnerships @CreativeEdu @pivotalpaul lol!That sounds like me!That's why I aspire 20:32 to be like the teachers who inspired me-creative & exciting #ukedchat @john_at_muuua #ukedchat ILAAAMATNP (I love an acroynm as much 20:32 as the next person) #RSCON3 is FREE online 3day conf 29-31 July. Great addictive CPD! 20:32 reformsymposium.com #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: #ukedchat Consistenmtly the best ed system in 20:32 the world, Finland, has NO tests/exams until you get to college. @mattbuxton10 @john_at_muuua I think any good English teacher 20:32 would at least teach and discuss construction. #ukedchat 20:33 @natachakennedy What do they finish school with? #ukedchat @mikeatedji #ukedchat Quite, otherwise all we are teaching our 20:33 students is how to pass exams. RT @janwebb21: @john_at_muuua it's the process that makes the 20:33 learning and that is what gets missed in the measurement #ukedchat @PivotalEllie Trouble isgenie's out of the bottle. We can never go back 20:33 to how it was. Unis are companies (effectively) too now. #ukedchat So if the process makes the learning and the final product is measured by an exam, how do we measure the process #ukedchat @CreativeEdu I had a few teachers like that, somehow 10 minutes in history was the perfect power nap #ukedchat data can be manipulated to put a 'spin' on it.. #ukedchat UK teachers! Please post the #RSCON3 flyers in school before term ends! http://is.gd/RDerSG #ukedchat Participate in #RSCON3 from the comfort of your own home! July29-31 reformsymposium.com #ukedchat

CreativeEdu CliveSir mattbuxton10

passionateaboot

SheliBB PivotalEllie CliveSir

tim7168

SusanElkinJourn tim7168 PivotalEllie

mikeatedji

SusanElkinJourn

janwebb21 pivotalpaul GaryAveryICT CliveSir CliveSir

20:33 20:33 20:33 20:33 20:33

PivotalEllie

@astirrup34 #ukedchat @pivotalpaul does a lot of work with negotiated 20:33 assessment - I'm going to try to find the article & post it @PivotalEllie #ukedchat Precisely. And grading reinforces fixed mindset, 20:33 the same way IQ tests used to. We need to reorientate priorities Page 17 of 33

mikeatedji

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 Big problem about formal external testing is teaching to the test. What a 20:33 waste of valuable learning time for those poor children. #ukedchat @natachakennedy But there are exams at the end of school though 20:33 right? #ukedchat Head-teachers love the data exams throw out - pretty graphs etc. 20:34 #ukedchat #ukedchat Here is where I got the reading grids from: 20:34 http://t.co/0rLrNdd and here for my maths: http://t.co/QhVAKmL #ukedchat Imagine if teachers were on performance related pay judged 20:34 on results! @tim7168 I taught in Denmark for a while & there they have no exams, 20:34 just a detailed report of each pupil's abilities at age 16 #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: #ukedchat the prob is simply that tests are not REALLY used to assess pupils progress, they are used to assess teachers. 20:34 This is wrong. @ukedchat You don't have to imagine it. Look at the US Follow 20:35 #DianeRavitch. All teachers paid - & sacked - by results only. #ukedchat 20:35 @ukedchat Even more figures would be fudged! #ukedchat @natachakennedy Is the report standardised in any way? I like what I've 20:35 read about the system in Denmark #ukedchat @natachakennedy Sounds like just what we need. Are the results 20:35 trusted by Gov, Unis, employers? #ukedchat @CreativeEdu #ukedchat some kids bomb.that's the nature of the beast. 20:35 Not just testing knowledge but skills of being able to deliver What about different exam systems like IBac - is that better than GCSEs 20:35 #ukedchat @ukedchat #ukedchat It wouldn't make any difference to how I teach as I always want the best for each child anyway. Don't we all? @PivotalEllie #ukedchat yes, and that fundamentally fails to prepare them for learning in life after school @janwebb21 absolutely agree. Exams. Can't measure the process honestly.#ukedchat @tim7168 #ukedchat Not certain but I think it is tailored to each child. Employees/Colleges trust it however.

ICTmagic tim7168 ukedchat

KnikiDavies ukedchat

natachakennedy

janwebb21

natachakennedy MattFothergill tim7168 ICTmagic

davidhunter CreativeEdu

KnikiDavies mikeatedji john_at_muuua natachakennedy

20:35 20:35 20:35 20:36

PivotalEllie MrsPrentice11

@mikeatedji #ukedchat So we MUST change the way we test if we are 20:36 going to prepare our students for the learning challenges they will need is it in canada where they allow internet in exams which enables them 20:36 to ask more higher order questions? #ukedchat @davidhunter #ukedchat yup - if we only do afl, do we develop ability to 20:36 deal with pressure/build resilience through exams!! #ukedchat @ukedchat paid by results? some of use would be millionaires! (can you 20:36 lend me a fiver? ;-) #ukedchat Page 18 of 33

janwebb21 john_at_muuua

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 pivotalpaul @ukedchat no need to imagine, just talk to teachers in the US about the 20:36 'no child left behind' debacle @natachakennedy My son got boosted to level 4 for English at KS2. He's 20:36 19 now & is probably now still scraping level 4! #ukedchat @SusanElkinJourn - absolutely they would, but then mark an essay 20:36 which assesses writing ability (vital), not solely construction? #ukedchat Anything which can be counted is not worth counting (Einstein - altho I 20:36 may have paraphrased slightly.) #ukedchat 20:37 @PivotalEllie WTF?! :-) #ukedchat RT @GaryAveryICT: I find APP is just a written form of what I already 20:37 know #ukedchat RT @john_at_muuua: @mattbuxton10 @janwebb21 LOL. Data as a 20:37 weapon is precisely what OfSTED ninjas use. #ukedchat @john_at_muuua can we get rid of acronyms before we get rid of 20:37 exams #ukedchat ;-) RT @tim7168: @natachakennedy I like what I've read about the system 20:37 in Denmark #ukedchat What do they do in Denmark? @ukedchat they are in some acadamey schools. King Solomon in West London give bonuses to teachers whose students more up one level per 20:37 year but head teachers were teachers once too... why should they view 20:37 exams so differently? @ukedchat #ukedchat @janwebb21 @davidhunter #ukedchat A balance is needed - to teach 20:37 all sorts of different skills @mattbuxton10 @janwebb21 LOL. Data as a weapon is precisely what 20:37 OfSTED ninjas use. #ukedchat @natachakennedy Luckily,a teacher recognised his gift for maths/shape at age 5 through day-to-day AFL.He wasn't lost in the system #ukedchat RT @PivotalEllie: @mikeatedji #ukedchat So we MUST change the way we test if we are going to prepare our students for the learning challenges they will need RT @SheliBB: @natachakennedy Yes! Big agree! Who ever agrees totally with sats results? Not I! #ukedchat RT @ukedchat Head-teachers love the data exams throw out - pretty graphs etc. #ukedchat its madness.what indus (cont) http://deck.ly/~8GWFz

SheliBB

mattbuxton10 SusanElkinJourn john_at_muuua BoroLeaders PivotalEllie Sundayteatime MrG_ICT

ChrisMartinE1 CreativeEdu PivotalEllie john_at_muuua

SheliBB

20:37

natachakennedy janwebb21

20:37 20:37

davidhunter SusanElkinJourn

20:37

20:37 @mattbuxton10 Both - when I was teaching English, at least. #ukedchat ok we have talked about afl and summative testing - what about 20:38 diagnostic testing? analysing answers to develop next steps? #ukedchat RT @KnikiDavies: @oldandrewuk #ukedchat It's certainly a good starting 20:38 point for September if, say, percentages shows up as a weakness @CreativeEdu @ukedchat they're judged on exams aswell. In fact heads 20:38 prob face more exam pressure than teachers? #ukedchat Page 19 of 33

janwebb21

oldandrewuk

xPunzx

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 john_at_muuua kforeilly @janwebb21 funny... I'm sure we said the same thing there and it 20:38 wasn't a RT! #ukedchat RT @ukedchat: #ukedchat Imagine if teachers were on performance 20:38 related pay judged on results! @SusanElkinJourn #ukedchat Agreed - how do you test for values? Or responsibility? Or resilience? Reorientation required! @SheliBB we see that a lot in middle school, get boosted in Y6 and are still there when they leave in Y8 #ukedchat @natachakennedy #ukedchat yes...but why are the tests required? we're used to having them around but would you have em if beginning again @natachakennedy That's the tricky bit...it wouldn't work here without a dramatic culture shift. #ukedchat

mikeatedji MrsPrentice11

20:38 20:38

mikeatedji tim7168

20:39 20:39

natachakennedy john_at_muuua PivotalEllie janwebb21

#ukedchat read http://bit.ly/oDib2o "Mathematical Intimidation" that is 20:39 the function of tests. Control teachers by intimidating them w nos. 20:39 @davidhunter @CreativeEdu every success needs a failure? #ukedchat @natachakennedy #ukedchat Which is why we need numerate 20:40 teachers! RT @PivotalEllie: @john_at_muuua #ukedchat ILAAAMATNP (I love an 20:40 acroynm as much as the next person) Has anyone ever seen exam paper require students to ask questions 20:40 rather than just answer them? I've not in history, or politics!! #ukedchat This #ukedchat is interesting and well intentioned, but meaningless 20:40 without a wider contextual change in uk educational culture. #justsaying 20:40 @john_at_muuua spooooooky #ukedchat As ed journo (former teacher) I often visit classrooms. Can tell almost 20:40 instantly whether learning & progress is happening. #ukedchat RT @john_at_muuua: @davidhunter @CreativeEdu every success needs 20:40 a failure? #ukedchat <why? #ukedchat answer analysis has a purpose if it isn't a drawn out formal 20:41 procedure that obstructs, not informs teaching @MrsPrentice11 Seem to recall something about Canadian teachers not 20:41 marking their own work. Did I dream that? #ukedchat @thomascutts my only worry is the consistency of this #ukedchat 20:41 school wide and further a field. @mattbuxton10 I agree! sometimes its not the data that is the danger 20:41 just the way the data is used! #ukedchat @ukedchat imagine teachers were on performance related pay in 20:41 relation to pupil happiness 20:41 @SusanElkinJourn Ah, but how? You may be on to something ... @janwebb21 some diagnostic testing is essential of course, but I think 20:41 that the purpose of it is still AFL ... isn't it? #ukedchat

mattbuxton10

Dunfordjames janwebb21

SusanElkinJourn CreativeEdu thomascutts

john_at_muuua nellmog janwebb21 janeconsidine IaninSheffield SheliBB

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 @ukedchat # schools need to have more control over outcomes they 20:41 should be licensed to do so and HMI should track effectiveness What are the benefits of exams? You must be able to think of at least 20:41 one... #ukedchat #ukedchat 'data' almost a distraction. Certainly is for Ofsted & many 20:41 Heads. @CreativeEdu #ukedchat benefit? Delivering info under time pressure, 20:42 concisely - good for civil servants in international conferences...er.. @Dunfordjames maybe it is - but it's really good to have the debate, go 20:42 round in circles and curse our system anyway! #ukedchat @CreativeEdu But they succumb to the league table battle #ukedchat 20:42 It's all about getting numbers through the doors! @IaninSheffield Instinct, experience & the kids' eyes - you can't quantify 20:42 or measure it & that's my point. #ukedchat 20:42 @SheliBB shouldn't all testing be diagnostic? *justsaying* #ukedchat #ukedchat Is our data driven culture due to lots of maths teachers being 20:42 promoted to senior positions? @john_at_muuua ooh get you. Anyone would think you were in favour 20:43 of them! #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: #ukedchat the prob is simply that tests are not REALLY used to assess pupils progress, they are used to assess teachers. 20:43 This is wrong. @mattbuxton10 At uni when I did English, I got the best results when I asked my own questions rather than went with the ones given 20:43 #ukedchat goodness! where on earth is the time going! only 15 minutes left 20:43 #ukedchat RT @janeconsidine: #ukedchat imagine teachers were on performance 20:43 related pay in relation to pupil happiness @nellmog #ukedchat absolutely - the process breaks down at the 20:43 moderation across schools point @GaryAveryICT #ukedchat Mine can't! It's spot on. Has to be in spec 20:43 school! @CreativeEdu exam advantages: quick, controlled, standardised, instills 20:43 confidence by tradition... there's four! #ukedchat @tim7168 #ukedchat True. But the culture needs to change to fit reality 20:43 of a diverse population RT @McShaneChris: #ukedchat schools need to have more control over outcomes they should be licensed to do so and HMI should track 20:43 effective RT @janwebb21: @SheliBB shouldn't all testing be diagnostic? 20:43 *justsaying* #ukedchat @ukedchat @janeconsidine performance related pay by happiness? 20:44 education as entertainment? #ukedchat

McShaneChris CreativeEdu SusanElkinJourn

mikeatedji

SheliBB ukedchat SusanElkinJourn janwebb21 Sundayteatime CreativeEdu

coopsonia

KnikiDavies janwebb21 ukedchat thomascutts cherrylkd

john_at_muuua natachakennedy

ukedchat mikeatedji john_at_muuua

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 mikeatedji @john_at_muuua #ukedchat And I'd question whether "standardised" is 20:44 a benefit! RT @PivotalEllie: @mikeatedji #ukedchat So we MUST change the way we test if we are going to prepare our students for the learning 20:44 challenges they will need Have a look at this article about a fresh take on assessement from 20:44 @pivotalpaul http://bit.ly/oSfPhc #ukedchat 20:44 @MrsPrentice11 I think it is in Denmark? #ukedchat RT @janwebb21: goodness! where on earth is the time going! only 15 20:44 minutes left #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: #ukedchat the prob is simply that tests are not REALLY used to assess pupils progress, they are used to assess teachers. 20:44 This is wrong. RT @ukedchat: RT @McShaneChris: #ukedchat schools need to have more control over outcomes they should be licensed to do so and HMI 20:44 should track effective Sorry #ukedchat - glued to news re news of the world developments & 20:44 making plans for #boycottMURDOCH campaign @natachakennedy @coopsonia Agree. Using one metric to rank pupils, teachers, schools & even success of whole ed system is perverse 20:45 #ukedchat @MrG_ICT access to internet allowed - emphasis on higher level thinking skills - synthesis, evaluation, analysis rather than 20:45 recall#ukedchat @john_at_muuua @ukedchat @janeconsidine #ukedchat I don't think 20:45 happiness links to entertainment...feeling safe, valued, proud of self etc @KnikiDavies @ukedchat #ukedchat Spot on! That's what we all want. 20:45 The best for the children @SusanElkinJourn Agree about quantification & measurement - so how 20:45 do we describe successful learning to others? Parents etc #ukedchat @CreativeEdu @john_at_muuua Well they (exams) might have a (small) 20:45 role. But must't let tail wag dog. #ukedchat @KnikiDavies #ukedchat Yes this is really important. We need to make 20:45 sure we are teaching inquiry & self-questionning. @cherrylkd always spot on but you can find the good in all data 20:45 #ukedchat #ukedchat exams are a way of life. Would you like to be treated by a 20:45 doctor who hadn't passed 'his tests'. Just asking?! Books for kids & #teens with #dyslexia http://ht.ly/5s0Zr #spedchat 20:45 #engchat #edchat #ukedchat #librarians #isedchat #altedchat #tck #K12 @KnikiDavies I used to make up my own questions in neuropsychology 20:45 part of my degree too - but couldn't do it in the exam #ukedchat Heard from press complaints comm re DMail story saying girls death 20:46 BECAUSE of teachers strike - over 400 complaints made #ukedchat

janwebb21 PivotalEllie janwebb21 ukedchat

tim7168

john_at_muuua jackieschneider

tim7168

janwebb21

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IaninSheffield SusanElkinJourn PivotalEllie GaryAveryICT astirrup34

GatewaytoSkills

CreativeEdu

jackieschneider

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 CreativeEdu 808lika How could exams be improved to make them more meaningful? 20:46 #ukedchat RT @CliveSir: #RSCON3 is FREE online 3day conf 29-31 July. Great 20:46 addictive CPD! reformsymposium.com #ukedchat RT @CreativeEdu RT @john_at_muuua: @davidhunter @CreativeEdu every success needs a failure? #ukedchat <why? Be (cont) 20:46 http://deck.ly/~8pvJE RT @natachakennedy: #ukedchat read http://bit.ly/oDib2o "Mathematical Intimidation" that is the function of tests. Control 20:46 teachers by intimidating them w nos. @CreativeEdu Oh yeah we only could in coursework, but then I only had 20:46 to do 1 exam for my degree, it was mainly coursework #ukedchat RT @ikeontoast: #ukedchat surely it's like all things! A blend of all types 20:46 of assessment to meet children's needs! Some children excel at tests! The #ukedchat poll for next week is already LIVE http://t.co/ODxRLVs via 20:46 @Joga5 @SusanElkinJourn - and I'll bet most of it is invisible, in that not tied to 20:46 level this or grade that??? but this not valued!! #ukedchat @CreativeEdu LOL. Hate them! But I have an open mind. These are the 20:46 advantages the public see, and Gov bends to the public. #ukedchat #ukedchat surely it's like all things! A blend of all types of assessment to 20:46 meet children's needs! Some children excel at tests! @CreativeEdu #ukedchat I know! This behaviour is well-ingrained. The 20:47 truth is that he writes the interesting stuff & I tell people about it @astirrup34Surely no one's arguing against prof exams for eg doctors & teachers.V. different to dominate whole education with them #ukedchat I think it's important to have an open mind @john_at_muuua probably not a skill you learnt by sitting exams.... #ukedchat @ukedchat they most certainly do! @KnikiDavies #ukedchat Did you catch Martin Seligman on well being? Really relevant to this discussion and schools

davidhunter

janwebb21

KnikiDavies

PivotalEllie ukedchat

mattbuxton10

john_at_muuua

ikeontoast

PivotalEllie

SusanElkinJourn CreativeEdu karliva89 mikeatedji

20:47 20:47 20:47 20:47

CreativeEdu john_at_muuua

One of the things I most like about doing my PhD is the prospect of no 20:47 exams and entirely leading my own learning. #ukedchat @KnikiDavies @ukedchat @janeconsidine agree. Not sure every tabloid 20:47 would (little bit of politics there ;-)) #ukedchat RT @CreativeEdu: RT @john_at_muuua: @davidhunter @CreativeEdu 20:47 every success needs a failure? #ukedchat <why? >>yes, why? @cherrylkd @ukedchat #ukedchat Absolutely, if a child doesn't make 20:47 progress, it won't be for want of trying on our part 20:48 @mikeatedji #ukedchat No, I didn't, sounds interesting!

janwebb21 KnikiDavies KnikiDavies

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 janwebb21 @mattbuxton10 but aren't the quality of the questions a better 20:48 indicator of understanding!!! #ukedchat @janwebb21 Yes it should be, but sats tests seem to just be about 20:48 accountability - although I do use maths results diagnostically #ukedchat RT @IaninSheffield: Wouldn't it be possible to use a 'portfolio' of evidence to indicate successful learning? Don't art students do that? 20:48 #ukedchat Woo! I popped next week's #ukedchat poll's cherry ;-) great questions 20:48 @joga5 20:48 RT @karliva89: #ukedchat they most certainly do! @CreativeEdu @pivotalpaul requires me to tell you that he is making 20:48 salad and putting the kids to bed #ukedchat #ukedchat fortunately welsh curriculum is not dominated by tests! We 20:48 can choose what suits our kids best - mostly :) Wouldn't it be possible to use a 'portfolio' of evidence to indicate 20:48 successful learning? Don't art students do that? #ukedchat @Dunfordjames there seems to be a will amongst many to do 20:48 contextual change but not others #ukedchat #justsaying @SusanElkinJourn @CreativeEdu Do exams really have any role? do 20:48 they reflect how we work in real life? #ukedchat @ikeontoast #ukedchat Yes indeed! Some chn get really stressed, 20:48 underperform - others rise to the challenge to produce best ever work 20:49 @CreativeEdu hmmmmmm......... #ukedchat Wanted to join the #ukedchat today, but was locked in co-op along with 20:49 staff and some other customers whilst waiting for the police to come! @IaninSheffield Now there's an idea! E-portfolios and e-books mean 20:49 that no need for paper, and easy to achieve across schools #ukedchat @KnikiDavies #ukedchat agreed, I enjoyed tests to show what I had 20:49 spent many an hour learning! But can see other side too! Followed :) @joga5 - I think that's the best selection of #ukedchat poll questions I've 20:49 ever seen + they'll all lend themselves better to chat than most 20:49 @SheliBB yup..... #ukedchat @Sundayteatime #ukedchat no it's down to successive Govt's aiming to make teachers accountable for progress. League tables etc 4 parents @IaninSheffield No. #ukedchat @mattbuxton10 Yes - palpable but unquantifiable, #ukedchat @davidhunter @CreativeEdu if we are all as good as each other, what happens to the idiots? #ukedchat

SheliBB

tim7168 CreativeEdu ukedchat PivotalEllie ikeontoast

IaninSheffield janwebb21 john_at_muuua

KnikiDavies janwebb21

happymathsgeek

ukedchat

ikeontoast

CreativeEdu janwebb21

cherrylkd oldandrewuk SusanElkinJourn john_at_muuua

20:49 20:49 20:49 20:49

mattbuxton10

@KnikiDavies absolutely, an assumption in some circles that original 20:50 thinking & asking qs is 4 uni, schools r4 answering them!! #ukedchat

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 #ukedchat my OH is interviewing people for jobs. He doesn't want to know exam results just how they write about themselves. Interesting?! @janwebb21 you're clearly not trying.... FAIL!!! #ukedchat RT @Sundayteatime: #ukedchat Is our data driven culture due to lots of maths teachers being promoted to senior positions? Seven Simple Steps to School Communications Success http://ow.ly/5zaXK #ukedchat @happymathsgeek oh dear what did you do? #ukedchat @john_at_muuua Hello that would be me...pleased to meet you! #ukedchat @oldandrewuk ... and ... I feel there's a little more behind that ;-) #ukedchat

astirrup34 CreativeEdu janwebb21 Scholabo ikeontoast caroljallen IaninSheffield

20:50 20:50 20:50 20:50 20:50 20:50 20:50

PivotalEllie SusanElkinJourn mikeatedji janwebb21 Lab_13Irchester

MrsPrentice11

JanetbevCowan SusanElkinJourn janwebb21

@IaninSheffield Yes, portfolios, project work, blogging, discussion, 20:50 interview, presentations, debates, hotseating, portfolios .. #ukedchat @john_at_muuua @CreativeEdu Good point altho they do show you 20:50 can work to time & under pressure, #ukedchat @KnikiDavies #ukedchat I'll post link in a mo...not technically gifted 20:50 enough to do it immediately! @MrMalcontent only an extremely busy #ukedchat where've you 20:50 been?!?!?!!!!! Lab_13 helps children's understanding of science through creative and 20:50 child-led learning http://t.co/PHhJoWV #ukedchat RT @jackieschneider: Heard from press complaints comm re DMail story saying girls death BECAUSE of teachers strike - over 400 complaints 20:50 made #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: #ukedchat read http://bit.ly/oDib2o "Mathematical Intimidation" that is the function of tests. Control 20:51 teachers by intimidating them w nos. @ikeontoast @KnikiDavies Yes tests are quite fun if you can do them. I 20:51 enjoyed my OU exams. #ukedchat @thomascutts though of course that doesn't apply to our school!!!! 20:51 #ukedchat (watch out for twitter elbow) RT @john_at_muuua: @CreativeEdu we should teach 'how to be 20:51 independent free thinkers'. that's the revolution started. #ukedchat @Dunfordjames we have the same probs from ks1 to ks2. TA is so much 20:51 better, but we are all pressured to 'boost' results #ukedchat @thomascutts should definitely inform next steps - all too often not 20:51 done!!! #ukedchat @CreativeEdu we should teach 'how to be independent free thinkers'. 20:51 that's the revolution started. #ukedchat #ukedchat thank you for the interesting ideas. Got to go - cinema 20:51 awaits! @GaryAveryICT #ukedchat Yes. Even where ch has made no progress I can find out why and address the situation before gaps in knowledge 20:51 occur

mikeatedji

SheliBB janwebb21 john_at_muuua 55m1th

cherrylkd

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 RT @john_at_muuua: @CreativeEdu we should teach 'how to be 20:52 independent free thinkers'. that's the revolution started. #ukedchat @thomascutts completely agree!!! #ukedchat that's only guarantee of 20:52 improving quality of teacher judgment The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly 20:52 announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @mattbuxton10 However the original thinking and asking q's is to be 20:52 found in EYFS #ukedchat 20:52 @mikeatedji that's fine :o) #ukedchat look forward to reading it! @SusanElkinJourn #ukedchat agreed. I just think there is call for them 20:52 sometimes @IaninSheffield Portfolios? lovely idea for English, ICT, RE (my subjects). 20:52 Would make learning real. #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 20:53 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @SusanElkinJourn @knikidavies #ukedchat he he yep! Liked them in a 20:53 strange way but wouldn't want to do them now I'd fail ;) #ukedchat qualifications open or close doors. schools that struggle to provide them should be identified- its what happens next though... Last 5 minutes or so for #ukedchat this week. Any final 'soap box' thoughts? @astirrup34 #ukedchat I work a lot with drama schools - where admissions tutors couldn't give a toss about exams passed. I think it *is* valid to suggest that assessment can and should be used to keep us teachers on our toes, personally. #ukedchat What about oral tests like vivas for PhDs - I think they're probably invaluable for all involved? #ukedchat

PivotalEllie janwebb21

natachakennedy caroljallen KnikiDavies astirrup34 john_at_muuua

Knox_Harrington

ikeontoast

Teach_it_so ukedchat SusanElkinJourn informed_edu CreativeEdu

20:53 20:53 20:53 20:53 20:53

GaryAveryICT janwebb21 ukedchat ikeontoast cherrylkd CreativeEdu

@john_at_muuua make these portfolios transparent and visible..then 20:53 parents, not results can influence decisions #ukedchat 20:53 @CreativeEdu oh, I didn't realise there was a time limit! #ukedchat 20:53 #ukedchat - poll http://t.co/ODxRLVs via @Joga5 @astirrup34 #ukedchat does sound interesting! What was job? 20:53 Followed by the way :) @thomascutts @nellmog #ukedchat why so. It should be a requirement 20:53 and is gd practise. Ofsted like it as well. apart from where the bejesus did the last hour disappear to? #ukedchat 20:54 @ukedchat @informed_edu So how come Finnish teachers are even more on their 20:54 toes when they have no tests? oops nearly forgot; #ukedchat

natachakennedy

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 20:54 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @GaryAveryICT yes. another point to add to my plan for educational 20:54 reform. transparent marking. great ideas. #ukedchat @ikeontoast #ukedchat It seems the Welsh curriculum is ahead.Why do we force young children to sit in formal tests? We don't teach formally? RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @janwebb21 @thomascutts #ukedchat Yes that is a very good point. "Levelness" is quite a hard thing to grasp sometimes RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat

sheilascoular

john_at_muuua

RossMannell

20:54

RozKaveney KnikiDavies

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distinguishthis

20:54

astirrup34 ikeontoast CreativeEdu

#ukedchat think formal exams and skills tests should follow children 20:54 through schools however it looks. We need knowledge and skills valued. @RossMannell true, although peace and quiet and a chance to show 20:55 what you know is good for some :) #ukedchat is that true? I'd like to see the data.... sounds dubious to me... 20:55 @mikeatedji #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: #ukedchat Consistenmtly the best ed system in 20:55 the world, Finland, has NO tests/exams until you get to college. 20:55 Sometimes reaching a target is better than passing an exam..#ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 20:55 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat #ukedchat most exams pre GCSE are merely a stick to beat someone 20:55 with. Child, teacher or parent. 20:55 @IaninSheffield Do we need to? #ukedchat exams are the only alternative in a culture where teachers are treated as 20:55 second class professionals by politicians. #ukedchat The thing I hate most is timed tests - eg the mental maths. These are 20:55 stressful and seem unnecessarily harsh. #ukedchat @ukedchat #ukedchat My final thought is "There's a remarkable 20:55 number of teachers who don't know what the word 'measure' means". @ukedchat Trust good teachers, supervise those that need it and be 20:55 positive! #ukedchat tests have shown that black students, when askd to indcate ethncty on exam paper, prform worse...tyranny of exams and 20:55 expectations @SusanElkinJourn #ukedchat Which is as it shld B. Exams R a way in2 20:55 somethings & useless 4 others. (Drama degree here & needed alevels) Page 27 of 33

grainnehamilton GaryAveryICT

raymondonia MattFothergill SusanElkinJourn john_at_muuua KnikiDavies

oldandrewuk MrMalcontent

mikeatedji

PivotalEllie

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 @KnikiDavies @PivotalEllie agreed re enq & ask qs; my Y9s doing Ind 20:55 Projects, start lessons by them asking 5closed & 5open Qs #ukedchat RT @IaninSheffield: @SusanElkinJourn Agree about quantification & measurement - so how do we describe successful learning to others? 20:55 Parents etc #ukedchat RT @informed_edu: I think it *is* valid to suggest that assessment can/should be used to keep us teachers on our toes, personally. 20:56 #ukedchat Re transpar marking: I have held parents sessions where we collectively 20:56 looked at work and talked through grading -V Pos outcomes #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 20:56 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @natachakennedy @informed_edu Finnish teacher training and 20:56 inspection are excellent, but harsh. Hence the success. #ukedchat @KnikiDavies Your last thoughts then? You have 5 minutes to 20:56 complete!!! lol ;-) #ukedchat 20:56 @ikeontoast there's never any one answer #ukedchat @KnikiDavies I see your point...but mental arithmetic needs to be quick 20:56 surely? If you can't do it quickly you can't apply it. #ukedchat @mikeatedji Good point. And when orchestras do blind auditions they 20:56 employ more female musicians!!! #ukedchat @mikeatedji said by someone who knows only too well how to 20:56 manipulate data to make it say what you want to! #ukedchat @mattbuxton10 #ukedchat Sounds like a good idea. Do you combine 20:56 this with peer assessment? RT @ikeontoast: #ukedchat surely it's like all things! A blend of all types 20:56 of assessment to meet children's needs! Some children excel at tests! 20:56 @mikeatedji That is very interesting indeed! #ukedchat @Dunfordjames there'll always be different approaches even between 20:56 teachers - even if we bypassed the politicians! #ukedchat 20:57 @GaryAveryICT yes. embedded inspections. #ukedchat 20:57 @janwebb21 agreed!! #ukedchat @PivotalEllie Of course. That was what I meant. Universities are more restricted than conservatoires on the whole. #ukedchat Isn't a problem with exams that of teaching to them, so limiting time for learning? #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @mrstucke @Sundayteatime never mind - we'll still talk to you ;) #ukedchat

mattbuxton10

janwebb21

daveterron

caroljallen

LucyFurLeaps

john_at_muuua ukedchat janwebb21

tim7168 natachakennedy CreativeEdu PivotalEllie

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SusanElkinJourn CliveSir

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 @SusanElkinJourn Do you mean *we* specifically? i.e. couldn't the student do that for themselves? If so, I'm with ya :-) #ukedchat Before you go, vote for #ukedchat next week here http://t.co/ODxRLVs hosted by @Joga5 @tim7168 @knikidavies it should be quicker than an individual has previously done, not quicker than others #ukedchat Is it Finnish schools that have open observation structure.. Always a chair in the classroom for anyone to sit in #ukedchat @ikeontoast #ukedchat Also true re some need it... We need to cater for all children. :) @CreativeEdu #ukedchat Predictable, moi...oh no @ukedchat I always used to walk out of exams half an hour early lol #ukedchat @caroljallen Yes, & we often hear cliche that we then teach it out of them to pass their exams!?! Guess this is the key point!! #ukedchat RT @ukedchat: Before you go, vote for #ukedchat next week here http://t.co/ODxRLVs hosted by @Joga5 @IaninSheffield Well I don't see why not. Termly (or more) self assessment of learning? #ukedchat @IaninSheffield you should talk to @nellmog #ukedchat @SusanElkinJourn #ukedchat For me, my alevels enabled me to do drama - I wouldn't have made it into drama school, but got onto a good degree #ukedchat change the factory model of education, treat children like individuals. Wide range of testing. Holistic view. @mikeatedji ha ha! I'm sure it's just because I now feel I know you so well! #ukedchat

IaninSheffield ukedchat ikeontoast GaryAveryICT RossMannell mikeatedji KnikiDavies

20:57 20:57 20:57 20:57 20:57 20:57 20:57

mattbuxton10 CreativeEdu SusanElkinJourn janwebb21

20:57 20:58 20:58 20:58

PivotalEllie Dunfordjames CreativeEdu

20:58 20:58 20:58

MrsPrentice11

@tim7168 @KnikiDavies this annoys me too, in situations in real life 20:58 where you use mental maths you can take as long as you like #ukedchat @mattbuxton10 Indeed it is true, I have seen it so many times - the 20:58 system constrains the teachers - however this is changing! #ukedchat @natachakennedy We may well do too much of this, but it shd never be 20:58 abolished completely. Accountability is important for systems #ukedchat 20:58 Think we can learn a lot from assessment in EYFS #ukedchat IMHO It's necessary to have something to show at the end of 20:58 compulsory learning. exams may not be quite the answer #ukedchat 20:58 @ikeontoast What do you mean? #ukedchat RT @CreativeEdu: How could exams be improved to make them more 20:58 meaningful? #ukedchat @tim7168 If you're using it in real life there's no time limit...often it's a 20:58 matter of a few seconds and the person would have it #ukedchat @CreativeEdu #ukedchat - Carol Dweck "Mindset" - chapter and verse 20:58 coming up Page 29 of 33

caroljallen

informed_edu SheliBB

CreativeEdu tim7168 janwebb21

KnikiDavies mikeatedji

ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 CliveSir #RSCON3 is FREE online 3day conf 29-31 July. Great addictive CPD! 20:59 reformsymposium.com #ukedchat #edchat @MrsPrentice11 #ukedchat Unless U R wrkn out if U have time 2 miss 20:59 the bus that is coming dn the road so that U cn grab a coke @CreativeEdu could a portfolio of work and records of achievement be 20:59 the answer? #ukedchat @PivotalEllie Yes - it's a completely different approach. Depends what 20:59 you want to do afterwards, obviously. #ukedchat @janwebb21 #ukedchat of course! Although relentless assessment of any type isn't always the best use of limited time. (Ow me elbow!) UK teachers at #rscon3: @rliberni @DavidWarr @chrismayoh @carolrainbow @john_at_muuua +more #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @KnikiDavies: @tim7168 If you're using it in real life there's no time limit...often it's a matter of a few seconds and the person would have it #ukedchat It's 9pm. Many thanks to @janwebb21 for hosting #ukedchat this evening. The archive will appear later on this evening. See you next week :-) Thanks everyone for some fantastic ideas. Proves that teachers should run education, not politicians. goodnight to #ukedchat

PivotalEllie dmchugh675 SusanElkinJourn

thomascutts CliveSir

20:59 20:59

LillyxDx

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ICTmagic

20:59

ukedchat john_at_muuua

20:59 20:59

mikeatedji

@KnikiDavies #ukedchat From Carol Dweck "mindset". White students 20:59 underperform in simple task when told it's to do with sporting prowess @MrsPrentice11 @tim7168 Yeah! If I'm in the shop working out which 20:59 pack of pasta is better value I can take as long as I like #ukedchat @tim7168 one should compete against themselves not others! Too many timed things expect all to end up doing things at same speed 20:59 #ukedchat @PivotalEllie - yes, I often get them to swap questions, so they all end 20:59 up researching each others questions in their own context #ukedchat @informed_edu We certainly do. but results cannot be used to 20:59 determine teacher performance because all kids are different #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:00 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat #ukedchat thanks for fab contributions this evening every0one! so many 21:00 different conversations I'm looking forward to checking out archive!" @MrsPrentice11 @tim7168 @KnikiDavies tests like that only tell children what THEY already know- they are good/bad at mental tests 21:00 #ukedchat

KnikiDavies

ikeontoast

mattbuxton10

natachakennedy

SaiPang

janwebb21

SheliBB

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 CliveSir UK teachers! Please post the #RSCON3 flyers in school before term 21:00 ends! http://is.gd/RDerSG #edchat #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:00 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @ukedchat @janwebb21 - good night, thanks for another great 21:00 #ukedchat, well moderated. Now it's time for me to DRINK! SEVENTY SEVEN presenters scheduled for #RSCON3, excl keynotes! 21:00 Fantastic!! #ukedchat #edchat RT @SusanElkinJourn: @IaninSheffield Well I don't see why not. Termly (or more) self assessment of learning? #ukedchat <-with u all the way RT @janwebb21: #ukedchat Welcome to tonight's ukedchat - Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach???? @SheliBB #ukedchat I was thinking same thing just the other day! Observing, recording, next steps etc. Very Vygotsky Participate in #RSCON3 from the comfort of your own home! July29-31 reformsymposium.com #ukedchat #edchat RT @thomascutts: @janwebb21 #ukedchat of course! Although relentless assessment of any type isn't always the best use of limited time. (Ow me elbow!) @natachakennedy Exactly #ukedchat

DickMandrake CreativeEdu CliveSir

IaninSheffield

21:00

JanetbevCowan KnikiDavies CliveSir

21:00 21:00 21:00

janwebb21 mikeatedji

21:00 21:00

PivotalEllie

janwebb21

Dunfordjames

RT @Dunfordjames: #ukedchat change the factory model of education, 21:00 treat children like individuals. Wide range of testing. Holistic view. RT @ukedchat: It's 9pm. Many thanks to @janwebb21 for hosting #ukedchat this evening. The archive will appear later on this evening. 21:00 See you next week :-) RT @ukedchat: It's 9pm. Many thanks to @janwebb21 for hosting #ukedchat this evening. The archive will appear later on this evening. 21:01 See you next week :-) @IaninSheffield Only prob is some chn are very down on themselves 21:01 and underestimate, others overconfident go other way! #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:01 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:01 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @dmchugh675 @creativeedu #ukedchat Yes, particularly if it can be 21:01 multimedia (video, ict etc) RT @clivesir: Participate in #RSCON3 from the comfort of your own 21:01 home! July29-31 reformsymposium.com #ukedchat #edchat #midleved RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:01 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat

KnikiDavies

JDKenzy

LissyNumber PivotalEllie

rushtheiceberg

MargoJMilne

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 @ICTmagic unfortunately its also hard to define a clear alternative way 21:02 forward as there are no easy answers! #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:02 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @CliveSir: SEVENTY SEVEN presenters scheduled for #RSCON3, excl 21:02 keynotes! Fantastic!! #ukedchat #edchat RT @CliveSir: Participate in #RSCON3 from the comfort of your own home! July29-31 reformsymposium.com #ukedchat #edchat @ukedchat eek.... All so good :/ RT @Sundayteatime: #ukedchat Is our data driven culture due to lots of maths teachers being promoted to senior positions? RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @ukedchat: Before you go, vote for #ukedchat next week here http://t.co/ODxRLVs hosted by @Joga5 @janwebb21 Thanks for hosting. Enjoyed berating current assessment system. #ukedchat #ukedchat @janwebb21 - thanks for hosting :) @CreativeEdu Thanks for a fab hour. Informative learning as always. #ukedchat @informed_edu it's difference between tom-tom learning (shortest/fastest route) or taking scenic route to outcome @thomascutts #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @janwebb21 #ukedchat Thank you for hosting @ICTmagic if we can move berating to fighting for a way forward that would be brill #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat

janwebb21

jules_shaw krivett1

krivett1 todaystartsNOW johngw

21:02 21:02 21:02

sinnaluvva todaystartsNOW ICTmagic PivotalEllie cherrylkd

21:02 21:02 21:02 21:02 21:02

janwebb21

21:02

grainnehamilton

21:02

Krissie_r mikeatedji janwebb21

21:03 21:03 21:03

Mr_Pukeko

21:03

BigDaddyKeltik

21:03

mattbuxton10

JamesWyl

@SheliBB certainly sounds like it, have only seen EYFS as a parent - will 21:03 have to go & have another look (thought it was q long) #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:03 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat

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ukedchat Archive - 07 July 2011 Is it possible to measure successful learning without an exam-driven approach?" with @janwebb21 @KnikiDavies So true ... but having done reviews with colleagues, that's 21:04 true of adults too. Need to develop those skills in all? #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:04 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat thanks for all the thanks! #ukedchat - I now need to do motherly duties 21:04 youngest is patiently waiting to watch #apprentice with me! RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:05 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat 21:07 @ukedchat thanks! can't dm you back as you aren't following me! :0 RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:07 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:07 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:07 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat @KnikiDavies #ukedchat http://goo.gl/WMx4v is the audio link to Martin Seligman's talk at RSA on wellbeing. It's powerfully wonderful RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat Oh FFS MT @natachakennedy: Gov uses #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce further 36% cut in EMA: http://t.co/3ruVM0q #ukedchat Frenzied hour Twitter-chatting on #ukedchat. So nice to be at a meeting (virtually) with teachers. Like old times. RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat

IaninSheffield

flutterbug20011

janwebb21

spsot janwebb21

thegreatskua

ParattiNo1

yarrumniai

mikeatedji

21:07

samdodsworth

21:07

SuperRetroid SusanElkinJourn

21:07 21:08

null_loop Joga5

21:11

FatherFil

gabysslave

21:12 @CreativeEdu Thanks for the comments RE questions for #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:13 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat RT @natachakennedy: The Government has used the #NoTW phone hacking scandal to quietly announce a further 36% cut in EMA: 21:14 http://bit.ly/qBQzMZ #ukedchat Why should we teach How Science Works? Andrew Hunt at #CafeASE 21:14 next Thursday http://bit.ly/e7fusx #ukedchat #asechat @CreativeEdu @ukedchat In school and intra school moderation is 21:16 essential #ukedchat Page 33 of 33

AnthHard stevenmaxson