Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

Diamond Cut User Forum > General Discussion > General Audio > Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction

View Full Version : Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction

PDA

Craig Maier Craig's Record Cleaner Formulation

01-24-2006, 06:09 PM

Absolutely No Patents Pending This forumlation is based on the Discwasher patent, assuming that all ingredients have the same density as Distilled Water which is a pretty reasonable assumption. (For Cleaning Vinyl Records) All of these ingredients can be purchased from a supermarket. -----------------------------------------------Ingredients: 1. One Gallon of Steam Iron Water (consists of Distilled Water) 2. 70 % Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol (Part of our Emulsifier) 3. Automatic Diswasher Cleaning Liquid {Like "Cascade Complete" brand - - - be sure that you DO NOT use the type that includes chlorine bleach as an ingredient} (Part of our Surfacant) 4. Antibacterial Liquid Hand Soap such as "Softsoap" (Our Antimicrobe agent and another part of our Surfacant) 5. Small amount of Prestone anti-freeze or equivalent (This is the other part of our Emulsifier)* *Note: Prestone Antifreeze consists of the following and is toxic to humans and pets: - Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1) - Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6) ---------------------------------------------------------Recipe: (produces 1 gallon of Record Cleaning Fluid) 1. Remove 1/2 of a cup of water from the Gallon of Distilled Water and discard down the drain. This water is not used. All of the following ingredients are added to the remaining distilled water in the 1 gallon container via a funnel. 2. Add 3 Teaspoons of Prestone Anti-Freeze to the Water. 3. Add 4 Teaspoons of 70% Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol to the concoction. 4. Add 5 Teaspoons of Automatic Diswasher Liquid to the concoction. 5. Add 5 Teaspoons of Liquid Antibacterial Soap to the concoction. 6. Put the cap back on the Water bottle. 7. Stir thoroughly for 5 minutes. 8. Let it settle for one hour. 9. Stir Again. 10 Done Note: Store at temperatures between 35 to 100 degrees F. Keep bottlecap on tightly when not in use. WARNING:

1 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

THIS FORMULATION IS MADE FROM INGREDIENTS THAT ARE TOXIC TO HUMANS AND PETS. BE CAREFUL IN HANDLING THESE INGREDIENTS BY AVOIDING SKIN CONTACT AND KEEP ALL OF THEM OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN. DO NOT DRINK THIS SOLUTION OR ANY OF ITS CONSTITUENT COMPONENTS. I offer no guarantees as to the effectiveness of this formulation in its stated application. The user assumes all liability associated with its use. keywords: diy record cleaner, diy record cleaning solution, Do It Yourself Record Cleaning Solution, Craig's Concoction, Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction

Craig Maier

01-25-2006, 09:05 AM

I whipped up a gallon of the abovementioned record cleaner compound / solution last night. I tested it out on a very grimey LP which had old fingerprints and other dirt on both sides. I tested and compared this solution vs. plain distilled water on the record. One side of the record was cleaned with the distilled water while the other was cleaned with the record cleaner solution. Here is what I observed: 1. The side cleaned with Distilled water still had some smudges and fingerprints on it after the cleaning while the side cleaned with the solution did not. The record cleaner solution completely cleaned the record. 2. I noticed that the distilled water "beaded up" and "puddled" on the record while the record cleaner solution did not. The reason for that is probably due to the higher surface tension of the cleaner solution. 3. The record cleaner solution did not leave behind any apparent residue. The distilled water probably did not leave behind any of its own residue either, but it left behind a lot of dirt. It may be advisable to rinse the record with distilled water after cleaning with the cleaning solution, just to be sure that any residue from the cleaning solution is removed. Try it; it is inexpensive to make and seems to be effective at removing dirt and grime from Vinyl LP records.

sus4chord Hi, Craig -

01-25-2006, 10:05 AM

I've been a long time lurker here and a DC user (since version 3.11) and have upgraded through DC6 over time. It's definitely one of my favorite music-related programs and I do recommend it heartily when the opportunity presents itself. The formula sounds great and I'm wanting to try it, but what you didn't post was how you actually cleaned the record. I've got my old DiscWasher brush that I've used for many years, but when my son was young, he got into my big bottle of fluid and decided it would be fun to pour it out on the carpet and now I'm about out of the small bottle that fits in the handle. I recently ordered the RCA stuff, but haven't opened it yet (and don't know if I want to after reading the other thread). So, to complete the posting, what did you use to actually clean the record and what do you find as the best method? Something like the discwasher brush, some other kind of brush, a cloth of some kind, etc.? Any special technique? If it's already in a previous posting, I'd be happy to be referred to that link. Thanks, John

Craig Maier Hi John,

01-25-2006, 11:59 AM

I just used a cotton cloth to apply and rub the solution(s) onto the record surface. Then, I let the solution do its thing for about 2 minutes. Lastly, I used a bathroom towel to remove the remaining solution - - - nothing too fancy.

DougMac John, You may find these articles informative: http://www.smartdev.com/Cleaning-tutorial.html http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize041998.htm

01-25-2006, 12:49 PM

2 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

http://www.soundstage.com/upton05.htm http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=54 Based on these and other articles, my cleaning regimen goes like this: First, I use an old turntable that I bought for $15 to spin the record. It is destined to become part of my DIY vacuum system. I gently dry brush the record to remove any loose dirt. I use a left over photo negative brush from my darkroom days. I place the record on the turntable. I have two mats, one for uncleaned records and one for when the first side has been cleaned. I start the turntable and apply my cleaner of choice using Kimwipe pads. These are used by printers to clean printing plates. I think quilted cotton makeup pads work at least as well and will cut over when my bulk supply of Kimwipes is exhausted. Right now I'm using a series of cleaners starting with my homebrew made from Labtone. I think I'm going to modify my cleaner by adding a little Photo Flo, again left over from the darkroom. I may or may not follow this with some left over Discwasher D3 just for the heck of it. Finally I rinse with distilled water, again applied with a Kimwipe. Right now, I'm using a final dry Kimwipe to gently remove the rinse water. When finished, the record gets a new clean sleeve. It's amazing how much gunk can be removed from a seemingly clean record. On some garage sale records it's taken several applications before the Kimwipe comes back clean and not covered by a sickly yellow residue. It's also amazing how much difference there is in restoration working from a clean record. As I mentioned earlier, I have plans to build my own vacuum system. It will be loosely based on this one: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-39608.html I've bought the turntable and ordered the VPI parts. Since ordering the VPI parts, I've become fascinated with the Keith Monks type cleaner that use a vacuum wand. In theory, they make more sense. I'm considering building my own wand, but mounting it on the carriage of an old inkjet printer and have it move tangiently. I may use the printer stepper motor or I may use a DC motor, which would be easier. I found there's plenty of parts including motors, gearboxes and controllers that are used for hobby robotics. I like to tinker and this may be a fun project. Doug

Craig Maier Doug,

01-25-2006, 08:16 PM

We used to own one of those Keith Monks machines when we were doing the Edison Laterals Restoration project. We cleaned a few thousand sides with it. It was a fairly complicated and expensive machine, but it was very effective. After the project was completed, we could not justify keeping it because of its value, but if you can build one, you would not be disappointed in the results. Keep in mind that there is also a string that is driven down into the groove via the wand/stylus assembly which aids in lifting the dirt from down deep.

DougMac

01-26-2006, 07:03 AM

Doug, Keep in mind that there is also a string that is driven down into the groove via the wand/stylus assembly which aids in lifting the dirt from down deep. From the Loricraft web site: "The nylon nozzle tip of the vacuum arm does not touch the record. A fine filament nylon thread threads through the center of the arm and nozzle that allows the arm to lie very close the record. This un-calendared thread acts as a "ski" to support the arm and keep it a small fraction of an inch from the record. In fact, the distance is the thickness of the 30 gauge thread. Terrific suction is developed at the nozzle because of this proximity effect." And from the Keith Monks Page: "The nozzle is highly polished to avoid any marks on the record surface, and is supported above the record surface by a slow moving nylon thread that acts as a buffer between the nozzle and the surface. In addition this thread takes with it dirt lodged around the nozzle and in the tubes. A motor reels out the thread so that it is continuously changed. I was aware of the thread and had already investigated alternate sources. From the descriptions I had read

3 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

earlier, I thought that the thread rode on the groove ridges and its purpose was twofold; to keep the head of the wand from contacting the record surface and to provide spacing to create a venturi effect to increase the velocity of the suction, thereby making the vacuuming more effective. Doug

DJBohn

01-29-2006, 04:49 AM

Hi Craig, One last little point concerning your cleaning formula before you send it out in the Tracer news letter. You forgot to mention in the recipe to pour that half cup mixture back into the gallon bottle of distilled water, or the solution would be way too strong. The only hint to that was the 1 gal. of distilled water in the ingredient list. (Someone could end up trying to use some pretty thick stew!) I'll be making up a batch yet this week. Have not heard anything more from the Discwasher inventor since I talked to him. It doesn't look as if he has joined the forum yet either. He may have forgotten about us. On my search I found he's about 63 and he said he's still working. Seems to be very sharp yet as well. (He sounded like a very buisy and active person) Oh well, maybe one of these days he'll pop in on us. He may have possibly been some help with "tweaking" your formula a bit, but it sounds like it will work OK as is. Would have been really nice if he could have pointed us to a location for some custom brushes to use with it... (glad I still have mine)

Walter Any one have sujestions for cleaning rubber pinch rollers?

01-29-2006, 06:46 AM

Brian

01-29-2006, 07:52 AM

Short answer --the highest quality ethyl alcohol (not rubbing alcohol) you can find - probably at your local pharmacy. Unless your tape transport is REALLY antique, it is probably a synthetic compound - more like a soft plastic than rubber. While there are commercial "capstan ideler roller" cleaners, alcohol works as good as anything. It's probably a good idea to get ethyl alcohol (and as pure as possible) for two reasons: given the variety of formulations used by the industry to make the rollers there is a slight possibility one of them might not like the rubbing alcohol - the only kind sold in a hardware store; and second, if you pay the extra for the pureist type of ETHYL (not rubbing) alcohol - like a drug store pharmacy sells, you can also use it to clean the transports tape heads. And I suppose 3rd, if you're like an audio engineer I used to work with, you can add the ethyl alcohol to your coffee and have a "warmer-upper-er" that won't kill you like adding rubbing alcohol would!

Craig Maier DJ,

01-29-2006, 10:06 AM

Sorry, the recipe was unclear. I just updated it. The one half cup of water is tossed down the drain. All of those ingredients are added to the remainder of the gallon of distilled water. The reason for tossing one half cup of water is just to make room for the other ingredients. I apologize for the confusion.

Craig Maier Doug,

01-29-2006, 03:09 PM

Since you are building your own Keith Monks (KMAL) machine, another important facet of the design seems to be in the fact that the vacuum wand sweeps the record from the inside of the record circumference outwards. Although I am not sure, I think that this action helps assure that the wand does not attempt to "track" the record groove.

mrsdoyle Hello Everyone!

12-27-2007, 08:22 AM

I'm new at this kind of "restoring" our sounds in vinyl. The formula seems to be very effective. However, I was wondering just one thing...Once the concotion is ready, can I put some solution on a smaller bottle? Just thinking of convenience while I clean my precious collection.

4 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

Craig Maier Quoting mrsdoyle: "...Once the concotion is ready, can I put some solution on a smaller bottle?" --------------------------------------------------------------------

12-27-2007, 10:04 AM

I see no reason not to do that. It is much easier to work with that way. I would make sure that the bottle that I put it in has been thoroughly cleaned first, however. I would not want to contaminate the solution (or my record collection) with some unknown residue from the previous use of the smaller bottle. ps - welcome to the forum!

mrsdoyle Thanks for your quick response...and thanks for greeting me into the forum :D

12-28-2007, 01:00 AM

mrsdoyle The concotion really WORKS!!! It has been a breeze to restore my lp's. Thanks again. :D

01-18-2008, 08:17 PM

Craig Maier

01-18-2008, 09:21 PM

Great to hear! I particularly like the reasonable cost of the concocotion compared to commercial record cleaning products. One gallon of solution seems to be enough to clean a few hudred albums. But, when I ran out of my first batch, I still had plenty of left-over ingredients (from the first batch) except for the distilled water which costs about a dollar for a gallon.

steeve Craig:

02-10-2008, 03:37 PM

Thanks for posting this recipe! It took me awhile to track down Cascade Complete Gel- most of the stores stock just the regular Cascade Gel (which contains chlorine bleach as does practically everything else on the market!) I finally did track it down locally at Target and K-Mart. Costco sells Cascade Advanced Power which is another name for "Cascade Complete with Bleach Hydroclean Power" (chlorine bleach or sodium hydroxide is not listed in the ingredients but with "bleach" in the name I figured I better not use it since I could not locate a MSDS for it). The cleaning formula seemed to work well- I'm using a DIY system like the one spelled out in the Grynx website: http://www.grynx.com/projects/record-cleaning-machine I use a heavy duty Denon turntable I just picked up on craigslist to turn the albums, and made a "label protector" with a 4" round blank from Tap Plastic, which is 1/4" thick. I put a strip of 3/8" wide 1/4" thick closed cell weatherstripping around the outside to seal out liquids and had them drill out a 1/4" hole in the center which I reamed out for a snug fit on my turntable spindle. I've been using a VPI HW-16 brush, which works extremely well for wet brushing. I then vacuum up the spent fluid with a redesigned crevice tool and my small canister vacuum. (I couldn't find a thick velvet at the fabric stores so I cut apart an old Discwasher brush to line the slot I cut into the crevice tool with my Dremel.) Enough on the technical details on my rig... As for my impressions of your cleaning solution, I think it works pretty good. I do think that it is a bit sudsier than the regular Discwasher fluid- perhaps there should be less of the Cascade. I did try adding drops of Kodak Photo Flo as an additional surfactant, but will try making up another batch with maybe half as much Cascade. The new Discwasher fluid in the small black bottles has a very strong alcohol smell to it- which I do *not* remember with the older red bottles. Do you know if they have redesigned the formula? If not, I guess much of the alcohol had evaporated out of the old bottles I had around... Your cleaning solution also feels soapier on the fingertips than the Discwasher fluid in the black bottles, so I'm not sure if I would use it as a replacement in my Discwasher D4+ kit, although I do think it is a good solution for my DIY vacuum rig (especially when you consider the prices for the commercial products you can buy- ouch! :eek: ) Here is the routine what so far seems to work best for me: with the LP on my Denon TT and the label protector in place, I will squirt on a solution of distilled water with about 40 drops of Kodak Photo Flo per gallon and then brush it around with my VPI brush. I then apply 1:4 solution of Glass Plus and spread it around with my VPI

5 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

brush, allowing it to set for maybe two minutes before doing a strong VPI brushing after which I vacuum up the spent solution. I follow that with a rinse of distilled water which I also vacuum up. I consider all of that to be my pre-cleaning routine, which I then follow with a more thorough cleaner, like your Discwasher fluid. I will apply it, spread it around, let it set for a minute or two, brush it firmly with the VPI brush and then vacuum it up. Followed by one more rinse of distilled water which is vacuumed up. I have a few Discwasher brushes around which I use to help dry the records and then rip them to 24 bit/96khz files on my Music Hall 2.2 turntable. It might seem like a lot of work, but the more time I spend on cleaning the albums before the rip, the less time I spend cleaning up the rips with software. BTW here is another formula I've tried, with a variation for a heavier duty mixture: 1 gallon distilled water (less 18 ounces) 1 pint 91% alcohol 2 ounces Lysol Direct* 30-40 drops Kodak Photo Flo 1/2 gallon distilled water 1/2 gallon 91% alcohol 3 ounces Lysol Direct* 30-40 drops Kodak Photo Flo * I couldn't find this so I used Lysol Antibacterial Kitchen Cleaner with the same two "magic" ingredients from... http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize041998.htm And here is a very simple cleaning solution I found on the Steve Hoffman forums: 1 parts distilled water 1 part 90% Isopropal Alcohol 5 drops dishwater detergent (dawn works better than others) [Perhaps someone can fill in more exact quantities or proportions on that- my guess is that the total quantity would be a pint or a quart.] In any case, the Discwasher solution seems to work better than these other ones with my vacuum rig, especially if Glass Plus is used for a pre-cleaner (perhaps it is good for removing the mold release compound- I dunno). FWIW all of the different cleaning routines I've tried seem to work better if I start out with the Glass Plus following by a distilled water rinse. And finish up everything with another distilled water rinse and final vacuuming. Thanks again, Mr. Maier! Steve Ahola http://www.blueguitar.org/ http://www.myspace.com/steveahola

Craig Maier Quoting Steeve:

02-10-2008, 05:47 PM

"The new Discwasher fluid in the small black bottles has a very strong alcohol smell to it- which I do *not* remember with the older red bottles. Do you know if they have redesigned the formula?" ---------------------------------------------------------------Sorry, but I do not know what the formulation is for their solution at this point in time. ----------------------------------------------------------------I think that you are using a good approach in that you are experimenting and trying to refine the formulation in order to achieve the optimal results. I would, however, be careful about using too much alcohol. I am not a chemist, but I believe that the use of too much alcohol could possibly damage the plasticizers in the vinyl. Let us know of any further improvements that you discover.

steeve

02-10-2008, 09:15 PM

6 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

Quoting Steeve: "The new Discwasher fluid in the small black bottles has a very strong alcohol smell to it- which I do *not* remember with the older red bottles. Do you know if they have redesigned the formula?" ---------------------------------------------------------------Sorry, but I do not know what the formulation is for their solution at this point in time. ----------------------------------------------------------------I think that you are using a good approach in that you are experimenting and trying to refine the formulation in order to achieve the optimal results. I would, however, be careful about using too much alcohol. I am not a chemist, but I believe that the use of too much alcohol could possibly damage the plasticizers in the vinyl. Let us know of any further improvements that you discover. Good point about the alcohol! With the Discwasher 4+ system they tell you to put 3 or 4 drops on the pad so the amount of alcohol in their solution would not be so critical when used as directed (which is certainly not the way that I use it! :p ) BTW Glass Plus supposedly has neither alcohol or ammonia in it, although I am still trying to track down the MSDS for it so that I know what exactly *is* in it. It was recommended by several people over at the Steve Hoffman forum, but by itself it doesn't seem to do much for fingerprints- while your formula works great on the fingerprints, etc. But when using the Glass Plus as a pre-cleaner I hear a lot less crackle on my recordsespecially between the songs. Thanks again for posting this recipe- I have a hunch that some companies are selling it for $10 an ounce! :eek: Steve Ahola EDIT Okay, I made up another batch- this time I cut the Cascade in half and added in 10 drops of Kodak Photo Flo per quart. (Cascade will take the skin off of your fingers so I feel better about this now! LOL) From that solution, I also made up a 50-50 mix (using distilled water) which I would trust as a direct replacement in the Discwasher D4+ kit and is probably closer to the original formula in the red bottles than the stuff that they are selling now.

Craig Maier

02-11-2008, 08:47 AM

My WAG (wild ass guess) is that glass plus may contain some organic cleaning compounds since it does not have the more common alcohol or ammonia active ingredients. As for those guys selling this stuff for 10 bucks an oz, more power to 'em! That is capitalism at work. :) But, I prefer to keep the money from flying out of my wallet at real high rates like that and that is why I translated their formulation from their patent (which has expired since it is past the 17 year mark).

Lord Theo

02-12-2008, 12:17 PM

I'm using distilled water with a few drops of photoflo as a surtefecant. Is their a better concoction?

Geebster

02-12-2008, 02:08 PM

I'm using distilled water with a few drops of photoflo as a surtefecant. Is their a better concoction? I swear by Craig's concoction. For me at least, it does a far better job than any commericial application..... and it's cheap!! GB

steeve

02-12-2008, 02:18 PM

My WAG (wild ass guess) is that glass plus may contain some organic cleaning compounds since it does not have the more common alcohol or ammonia active ingredients. As for those guys selling this stuff for 10 bucks an oz, more power to 'em! That is capitalism at work. :) But, I prefer to keep the money from flying out of my wallet at real high rates like that and that is why I translated their formulation from their patent (which has expired since it is past the 17 year mark). They certainly have the right to sell their concoctions for $10 an ounce, but I think that their wild claims have more to do with P.T. Barnum than keynesian economics... :D

7 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

I could certainly do without the snake oil! Steve Ahola P.S. Can you post the patent number? I'd like to take a look at it myself... Disclaimer: I am a chemist nor do I play one at recess. P.P.S. I guess I'd need to track down the patent for GlassPlus to find out what it contains (I just sent them an email from their website asking for more details on the ingredients). EDIT Here is a link to the MSDS (hint: it contains 1-2% alcohol): http://msds.reckittprofessional.com/customer_services/msds/dist/372961_r.pdf

steeve

02-12-2008, 02:32 PM

I swear by Craig's concoction. For me at least, it does a far better job than any commericial application..... and it's cheap!! GB I think that Lord Theo was suggesting using distilled water with Kodak Photo Flo as a pre-treatment for a cleaner such as Craig's. Kodak Photo Flo is called a "water wetter" since it decreases the surface tension of water, allowing it to soak into the record grooves much better (rather than just pooling on top). So when you apply the cleaner, it soaks right down to the dirt so you don't need to use as much. I had a hard time finding Kodak Photo Flo locally so I had to order it on-line and had it shipped on a slow boat from New York- it took almost two weeks for them to get it out to California (maybe they sent it in a covered wagon across the Rockies :eek: ) Steve Ahola P.S. A question for the experts out there- is a drop a drop? I just got a very small eyedropper from Tap Plastics and was wondering if a drop from that was smaller than a drop from a larger eyedropper? I guess I need to get some eyedroppers out and start measuring...

Lord Theo Is anyone "mixing their own" specifically for 78's?

02-12-2008, 02:33 PM

Craig Maier Quoting Steve:

02-12-2008, 03:40 PM

"P.S. A question for the experts out there- is a drop a drop? I just got a very small eyedropper from Tap Plastics and was wondering if a drop from that was smaller than a drop from a larger eyedropper? I guess I need to get some eyedroppers out and start measuring..." -----------------------------------------------------If I remember my physics correctly, a drop is a drop for a given chemical compound without regard for the type of dropper used. In other words, the volume contained within a drop is determined by the ratio of the surface tension of the compound coupled with the liquids density. But, I am remembering what I think that I learned from roughly 40 years ago in college. As for the patent number, it may be somewhere here on this forum going back a few years. Check it out via the forums search engine.

Geebster

02-12-2008, 04:15 PM

I think that Lord Theo was suggesting using distilled water with Kodak Photo Flo as a pre-treatment for a cleaner such as Craig's. Kodak Photo Flo is called a "water wetter" since it decreases the surface tension of water, allowing it to soak into the record grooves much better (rather than just pooling on top). So when you apply the cleaner, it soaks right down to the dirt so you don't need to use as much. Steve Ahola

I've been using Craig's formula since it was first posted and never have had the solution "pool" on top. At least with my recordings, I have never found a need for a pre-treatment. It does a great job on it's own. Granted, I don't collect grungy, grimy LP's. In this internet age, I have never found the need to accept an inferior recording (dirt or damage). In the rare instances where I've passed on a particular disgustingly filthly LP, I was able to find

8 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

a far better copy easily. My time is far too valuable to waste spending cleaning foul LP's. For most people, they have more time than money, but for me it's the exact opposite. So, with that said, my cleaning requirements are quite modest as most of my recordings are in pretty good shape. GB

Craig Maier

02-12-2008, 05:47 PM

I would not think it necessary to use Photo-Flo as a pre-conditioner because "Craig's Concotion" includes two ingredients that are surfacants. Please refer to the formulation at the top of this thread for details.

Geebster

02-12-2008, 05:59 PM

I would not think it necessary to use Photo-Flo as a pre-conditioner because "Craig's Concotion" includes two ingredients that are surfacants. Please refer to the formulation at the top of this thread for details. Exactly. That's why haven't had any of the "pooling" as described in another post. GB

steeve

02-13-2008, 03:48 AM

I would not think it necessary to use Photo-Flo as a pre-conditioner because "Craig's Concotion" includes two ingredients that are surfacants. Please refer to the formulation at the top of this thread for details. True enough, but my initial experiments have indicated that "Craig's Concoction" works better if I first apply distilled water with Kodak Photo Flo to my albums, some of which are filthy dirty and some have only been played once or twice. My thoughts on this are why not use an additional surfactant- since Photo Flo doesn't seem to harm photographs (which are very sensitive) it probably wouldn't harm the vinyl in albums. BTW I was checking the MSDS for Cascade Complete Gel at the PG site and noticed that the specific gravity is 1.26 grams per cubic centimeter which would mean that the quantity you specified would be roughly 26% too high. Your initial post in this thread suggested that "all ingredients have the same density as Distilled Water which is a pretty reasonable assumption". Steve Ahola

Craig Maier Steeve, It is hard to argue with success and so if the the Photo-Flo pre-conditioner helps, go for it.

02-13-2008, 06:36 AM

Yes, I did make the assumption that all ingredients had the same density as water, so that would have made the Cascade concentration somewhat on the high side compared to the patent. Next batch, try reducing it by around 25% and see if that improves the performance of the concotion - - - it may make it less sudsy.

sus4chord

02-13-2008, 07:33 AM

What's the ratio of PhotoFlo to distilled water? I noticed when I looked up PhotoFlo on the web that it says mix the concentrate to 200 parts water. Is that what you all are doing? I saw a 16 oz bottle for around $8, so that's not too expensive. (Especially for a 200 to 1 mix ratio).

steeve Steeve, It is hard to argue with success and so if the the Photo-Flo pre-conditioner helps, go for it.

02-13-2008, 07:53 AM

Yes, I did make the assumption that all ingredients had the same density as water, so that would have made the Cascade concentration somewhat on the high side compared to the patent. Next batch, try reducing it by around 25% and see if that improves the performance of the concotion - - - it may make it less sudsy. Craig:

9 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

I looked up the Discwasher patent number from your archives and two of the suggested ingredients from the text of the patent are exactly what is contained in Kodak Photo Flo (3 if you count the distilled water): 25-30% propylene glycol (CAS# 000057-55-6) 5-10% p-tert-octylphenoxy polyethoxyethyl alcohol (CAS# 009002-93-1) [plus 60-70% distilled water] Propylene glycol is similar to ethylene glycol (AKA automotive antifreeze) but it is less toxic. Amana used to use it in their HTM (heat tranfer medium) systems for heating and hot water. Speaking of toxicity, the antifungal ingredient suggested in the patent, sodium azide, is highly toxic and can explode when exposed to water so I think I'd agree with your substitution of SoftSoap antibacterial soap. :D The other ingredients spelled out in the text of the patent include distilled water and alcohol. Working out the proportions for 1000 mL of cleaning fluid, the following quantities would put you in the ballpark (there is usually a range listed in the patent rather than a specific figure): 1mL Kodak Photo Flo (20-25 drops) 2mL SoftSoap Antibacterial (1/2 tsp) 1 to 5 tsp 99% alcohol [I used 4 tsp- YMMV] 1000mL distilled water (1 liter- a little more than a quart) I just mixed up a batch and I think that it is very close to the original D3 fluid- much closer than what RCA has been selling in recent years (with the strong smell of alcohol!) However, while it does work great as directed with the Discwasher brush, it doesn't seem to have as much "oomph!" as your concoction for what I would call "power cleaning" (the wet brushing and optional vacuuming). Adding the Cascade in your concoction seems to make it cut through grease, dirt and fingerprints better. So I do give "Craig's Concoction" a big thumbs up (just cut back on the Cascade a bit :eek: ) Steve Ahola P.S. The Discwasher patent also mentions a "nonyl phenoxy polyethoxy ethanol" surfactant which I was unable to locate. [EDIT - the patent suggested that you could use *either* nonyl or octyl phenoxy polyethoxy ethanol, which are sold under the trade name Triton N-57 and Triton X-114] I'd probably try to track down some Tergitol (which is recommended by the Library of Congress). "Tergitol 15-S-3 is an oil soluble surfactant and 15-S-9 is a water soluble surfactant. Combined they remove a wide range of dirt and greases and can safely be used on sound recordings. Use 0.25 part of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 0.25 parts of Tergitol 15-S-9 per 100 parts of distilled water." from the Canadian Conservation Institute. EDIT I did find a source for the Tergitol 15-S-3 and 15-S-9: http://talasonline.com/

Craig Maier Hi Steeve, Just a sidebar note; the "Concotion" actually includes two glycols which are: - Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1) - Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6) Craig

02-13-2008, 09:22 AM

Geebster

02-13-2008, 12:14 PM

All this research in finding the "perfect" record concoction is fine.....BUT....all of it is in vain if you don't have a scientific methodology to test the said solutions for effectiveness. In my mind you would have to take a sample LP that was consistently dirty throughout and then after cleaning a section with the different formulations, compare them scientifically for cleanliness. Maybe by looking at all cleaned sections through magnification to see how much dirt remains would be a good approach. Short of doing something like that, I can't see how one could be certain one formula is better than the next. It would all be subjective reasoning rather than an actual clinical test. GB

10 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

Craig Maier GB -

02-13-2008, 01:44 PM

Of course, you are right. For anyone wishing to conduct such a study, I would recommend using the Spectrum Analyzer (or the CNF Spectral Display) as a measurement of the records cleanliness. I would simply measure the noise floor between two grooves on a record. The hard thing here is setting up the control, however. You would have to perform all tests on one record else other variables come into the equation. You would have to carefully clean just one track of a record with solution 1 and then just another track with solution 2, etc. It would be a pretty tricky exercise, but it could be done if done carefully. Or, another method could be to take several records and characterize their noise floors before cleaning. Then, clean each record with a different solution and then measure the delta noise floor result with the software. The larger the delta, the greater the performance of the cleaning solution.

steeve

02-13-2008, 11:55 PM

All this research in finding the "perfect" record concoction is fine.....BUT....all of it is in vain if you don't have a scientific methodology to test the said solutions for effectiveness. In my mind you would have to take a sample LP that was consistently dirty throughout and then after cleaning a section with the different formulations, compare them scientifically for cleanliness. Maybe by looking at all cleaned sections through magnification to see how much dirt remains would be a good approach. Short of doing something like that, I can't see how one could be certain one formula is better than the next. It would all be subjective reasoning rather than an actual clinical test. GB I agree with your comments about scientific methodology completely, and did not mean to suggest that one formula was inherently better than another. The tests I have been doing are of 24bit/96kHz digital recordings using various concoctions and methods, and I can post samples if you like. The differing methods I've been trying might include two or more applications of a particular formula, or two or more rinses with distilled water followed by a thorough vacuuming. I've been looking for something that isn't too expensive and not too time consuming, and will get a record about as clean as it will get. I'll try one method and when listening to the resulting recordings I may notice a lot of "crap" in the background, especially noticeable in the gaps between songs. So I will try a different solution or method, and see if the recording turns out any better. Sometimes it doesn't- the damage could be permanently etched into the vinyl or it could even be on the master recordings used to cut the album. However, if I notice a lot of "crap" I can usually make a better recording by cleaning it again, sometimes with the same solution, sometimes with a different one. Obviously there are limitations to this method of testing- we can't do an initial test of formula X on one album side and then do an initial test of formula Y on that same album side. So there is a lot of interpolation of the results, and I basically come up with an obsessive compulsive routine that may be very time-consuming but seems to cover all bases and will generally produce very decent vinyl rips. :eek: Another limitation concerns long-term damage to the album, for example a cleaning fluid might cause fungus to grow in the grooves, or contain enough alcohol to strip out some of the good stuff in the vinyl, or whatever potential problem we may discover next. This doesn't concern me a lot because my main concern is to produce a high quality digital recording of some of my all-time favorite LP's. There are other observations I have made during the testing of various recipes. With "Craig's Concoction" used alone on an LP, when I wetbrush it with the $36 VPI HW16 brush, it feels very gritty- one reason why I decided to pre-treat the record with Kodak Photo Flo (5 to 20 drops in a quart of distilled water). And use a final rinse with a generous helping of distilled water. When following this procedure, the brush works a lot more smoothly and the vinyl rips do seem to have less "snap, crackle and pop". FWIW a friend had asked me how I was certain that my cleaning routines were effective and I explained that it was very visible on the Spectral View in xxxxxxxx: the background would be a lot darker- a much sharper black. (Pre-RCM, the background would be speckled with small dots, like distant stars in the sky.) I tried a solution without the Cascade Complete in it last night and it didn't seem to clean as thoroughly as "Craig's Concoction" so I just now made up a special bottle of prepared Cascade. I mixed in 1 teaspoon of Cascade Complete with one cup of distilled water heated up in the microwave, stirred it up very well and then filtered it through a very clean white t-shirt- twice. :D I did the same with the SoftSoft but only filtered it once. With these two bottles I'll be able to experiment with different ratios more easily (the Discwasher patent often listed a very wide range of percentages for some of the ingredients). It took quite a long time for the Cascade to filter through the t-shirt so I believe that it removed a lot of stuff- hopefully what was causing the grittiness mentioned above. [EDIT- Yes, it did! Borrow a clean t-shirt from your wife and try it out! LOL]

11 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

I am not sure how Cascade Complete fits in with the Discwasher patent but I think that when used sparingly it can be an excellent addition to a record cleaning solution. I do think that Kodak Photo Flo is a better ingredient than Prestone Antifreeze, and I have a hunch that it is what they used in the initial batches of the D3 Discwasher fluid, while it was still in development. Of course, it might not fit in with the initial requirement that all of the ingredients be something you might have in your kitchen (I guess it depends on your kitchen! :cool: ) Steve Ahola P.S. And I give Craig a hearty three thumbs up for this project- and for coming up with something that seems to be absolutely unique- not just another "me too" formula that comes up repeatedly in a Google search!

Craig Maier Quoting Steve,

02-14-2008, 08:11 AM

"P.S. And I give Craig a hearty three thumbs up for this project- and for coming up with something that seems to be absolutely unique- not just another "me too" formula that comes up repeatedly in a Google search!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks, Craig

steeve Quoting Steve,

02-15-2008, 01:23 AM

"P.S. And I give Craig a hearty three thumbs up for this project- and for coming up with something that seems to be absolutely unique- not just another "me too" formula that comes up repeatedly in a Google search!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks, Craig Craig: I've been experimenting with different formulae- more of this, less of that- let's try this bottle instead- and thought I came up with something pretty slick. Less toxic than your concoction and it doesn't require as much rinsing afterwards (I assume that everyone is rinsing this stuff off with distilled water- right? right? :eek: ) So I was cleaning an album I ripped about a year ago (pre-RCM)- Jim Capaldi's "Oh How We Danced"- and after using my formula, it sounded like crap! :( So I get out your concoction, put it on a bit thick and it is sudsing and foaming away... I vacuum it up and rinse it twice with distilled water and the record sounded much better than when I cleaned it with my own formula. For all I know it may be the grittiness I noticed in your formula that helps it do a great job cleaning... :D But I do hope that everyone is rinsing it off well with distilled water, and if you are using a manual wet brush like the VPI HW16 it might be a good idea to wear gloves (I can still feel my fingers tingling a little bit! :eek: ) "Craig's Concoction" is not a replacement for D3 or D4+, but it is a darned effective vinyl cleaner, inspired in part by the text of the Discwasher patent... Steve Ahola

Craig Maier

02-15-2008, 08:24 AM

On record albums that I care about, I will rinse the disc with distilled water after cleaning. But, for records that I do not care about (most of them), I just use a one-step process using the concotion. Most of the time, I make a transfer of a record to the digital domain and then I no longer really care much about the analog artifact unless it is an extremely rare record, in which case I go to the extra effort to rinse. After a transfer to digital, it is very unlikely that I will ever play that particular record again. It just goes back onto the shelf as a dust collector.

Geebster

02-15-2008, 08:55 AM

On record albums that I care about, I will rinse the disc with distilled water after cleaning. But, for records that I do not care about (most of them), I just use a one-step process using the concotion. Most of the time, I make a

12 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

transfer of a record to the digital domain and then I no longer really care much about the analog artifact unless it is an extremely rare record, in which case I go to the extra effort to rinse. After a transfer to digital, it is very unlikely that I will ever play that particular record again. It just goes back onto the shelf as a dust collector. Yes, Craig. That is exactly what I do. Once recorded and restored, I almost never re-visit the original LP. I am in the process of finding homes for the albums I have already transfered. It is far easier to store a few hard drives than the space it takes for a sizeable record collection. At this point in my life, I'm in it for the music, not the "collection". GB

glenntsc Hey, All;

03-14-2008, 01:56 PM

I was getting tired of manually cleaning my vinyl library, so I recently bought a new VPI HW-17F record cleaning machine. (Oh, Yeah? So what if I groveled before getting the wife's blessing.) Scary :eek: price indeed for the unit ($1300.00), but I have a large (1973-1993) Mobile DJ collection that I've been transferring to digital via DC6, then DC7. I admit to having respectable success manually cleansing discs with Craigs cleaning formula prior to the RCM purchase. But, it was becoming pure drugery, considering the voluminous number of discs I am looking at. That was more scarier! Anyhow, I want to congratulate Craig on his "Craigs' Cleaning Concoction". :D (I've dubbed it, "C3" fluid. Ya' all can use that!) It works great with this machine. The VPI fluid that was included with the RCM, was rather conservative in it's cleaning abilities and surface wetting. By comparison, the C3 creates some gentle rotational lathering during scrubbing operations, with a very fast initial flow-out/wetting, and the results are positively audible every time. The spectrograph and the CNF samples validate the results too. This combination has expedited my conservation efforts greatly! I'm very pleased. Thanks Craig! My method is: 1. Clamp the disc down to the RCM platter. (Duh.) 2. Place the brush on the disc. 3. Apply sufficient C3 from a squirt bottle. 4. Turn the motor on for several forward and reverse cycles, depending on my judgement of the condition of the disc. 5. Vacuum the spent fluid off. 6. Next, using the VPI fluid pump, I then dispense distilled water on the cleaned surface to flush out, vacuum up and dry, any remaining residual. 7. Do the reverse side the same. 8. Off to the DAW. Sometimes, I'll do a whole stack at one sitting in preparation for digi-transfers. I've personally justified the cost of the VPI from the savings I'm getting from Craigs C3 brew alone. It's good stuff. I gave a sample of some C3 to a doubtful (The anti-freeze component.) audiophile friend of mine, and he later called and wanted the recipe. He was a beliver too. I was wondering, if the "JetDry" dishwashing product would be a safe wetting agent to experiment with or possible to include in the C3? I've never seen it referenced elsewhere. The products web site does not give the ingredients listing, nor does the package I have. Any speculations? But hey, the original C3 works perfectly anyhow! (Just a thought.) Again, thanks Craig for C3. And not to forget, the forum and it's participants have been a great collective resource of knowledge for my vinyl to digital convictions. Thanks. Respectfully, Glenn P.

Craig Maier Hi Glenn,

03-14-2008, 09:13 PM

Thanks for the testimonial regarding "C3"; just keep in mind that all that I did was to translate someone elses patent into the proper ratios of readily available ingredients. I too did not want to spend a fortune on record cleaning solution as I also have a fairly large record collection that required cleaning. As for Jet Dry, I do not know anything about its chemical makeup. I would be reluctant to use it without knowing more about it.

glenntsc Hi, All;

03-15-2008, 11:23 AM

13 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

Craig, you're too modest. You applied your knowledge to "decode" the earlier patent out of necessity, to recreate an old standby vinyl cleaner. What you came up with may not be the exact product, but it works very well! :D I was curious about the JetDry as the "wetting" agent for the DIY cleaning formula wizards. Several individuals here and on other vinyl related forums, are at times seeking a substitute for the Kodak Photo-Flo agent, which seems to becoming harder to locate since print film developing is not that common as a hobby anymore. Photo-Flo always seems to be a mentioned ingredient. Like I said, I couldn't locate the JetDry ingredients to see if it would be safe. It's a mystery blue fluid. Respectfully, Glenn P.

Craig Maier

03-15-2008, 12:26 PM

I believe that the two Glycols used in "C3" (found in the anti freeze) would serve similar functions as Photo-Flo would. I believe that they are all in the same basic family of chemical compounds, but I am not sure.

Chris Riley

04-27-2008, 05:24 PM

I've purchased the ingredients for Craig's concoction, and I think I have the right stuff, but would like to get opinion on a couple of items, and whether it truly is the right stuff, before I mix it all up. Automatic Dishwasher Cleaning Liquid: I purchased Jet-Dry (Turbo Dry). Nothing in the way of an ingredient list on the bottle, but it doesn't say that there is bleach. It does say it contains a non-ionic surfactant. All other products were of some colour - this one, clear. (If I had purchased a blue coloured liquid, I would have called it "Blue Craig" :) ) Antibacterial Liquid Hand Soap: I purchased Azuro. This is a Canadian product, but had the least perfumes and other gimmick additives. It contains 62% ethyl alcohol, water, carbomer, glycerin, "fragrance" (?), triethanolamine, aloe vera and tocopheril acetate. The other thing is, Canada is metric, so finding exactly a gallon of distilled water is impossible. I got a 4 liter jug of it, slightly more than a gallon (1 gallon = 3.78541178 liters), and I will have to carefully transfer a gallon to another container. Thanx. Chris

Chris Riley I called the Jet-Dry people and got the ingredients: Water Surfactant Magnesium chloride Propylene glycol Citric acids Organic salt Preservative Any problem with these ingredients? Thanx, Chris

04-30-2008, 04:39 PM

Craig Maier

04-30-2008, 04:58 PM

Keeping in mind that I am not a chemist, those chemicals look ok for the application - - - importantly, there is no chlorine which could damage vinyl (PVC) records.

Chris Riley

04-30-2008, 06:44 PM

Thanx, Craig. I felt a little like a mad chemist as I put all of the products on my kitchen counter. :)

Craig Maier

04-30-2008, 07:37 PM

14 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

Yeah - - - it looks and feels a little strange when you are mixing anti-freeze and other stuff like that in your kitchen. If someone walked in on you, what would you say to them? Maybe ask, "wanna little dinner? I'll cook!" :eek:

Brian If someone walked in on you, what would you say to them? Just hope some nosy neighbor with binoculars doesn't report you to Homeland Secutity!

04-30-2008, 08:47 PM

Carlp Thanks for this recipe, Craig.

05-03-2008, 01:03 PM

I just mixed up a batch and found it quite sudsy. Not something to use without a thorough rinse. On a hunch, I used a little less of the Cascade and anti-bacterial soap but it's still quite sudsy, and I don't imagine the 1/2 cup of distilled water added back (as suggested a few posts ago) would make any difference. I also used a little more alcohol than called for in the recipe. Is this others' experience as well? I rinsed with distilled water after but still there's a residue when dry. I could have rinsed it more carefully, but it would have taken a lot of rinsing to remove all residue. In short, I don't think this is a substitute for any Discwasher-type system, but instead is probably a good deep cleaner for really dirty records. After that, maybe all that's needed is an anti-static brushing or cleaning with mostly distilled water. Still, I wonder why the sudsing is so great since the recipe is based on the D3 cleaner (which didn't suds at all IIRC). Finally, anti-bacterial is not anti-fungal and I'm sure fungus is a much bigger problem for records than bacteria. But...I read somewhere that the vinyl used in records tends to deter fungus growth anyway, so is antifungal really needed? (Despite having read that, I'm sure some of my records have some fungus on them from when an old girlfriend over-watered plants on top of them when I was living in NC. Carl

Geebster Thanks for this recipe, Craig.

05-03-2008, 01:14 PM

I just mixed up a batch and found it quite sudsy. Not something to use without a thorough rinse. On a hunch, I used a little less of the Cascade and anti-bacterial soap but it's still quite sudsy, and I don't imagine the 1/2 cup of distilled water added back (as suggested a few posts ago) would make any difference. I also used a little more alcohol than called for in the recipe. Is this others' experience as well? I rinsed with distilled water after but still there's a residue when dry. I could have rinsed it more carefully, but it would have taken a lot of rinsing to remove all residue. Carl I don't doubt your findings, but I can only recount what I have experienced. I have made several batches of Craigs solution, and never to have found suds or residue to be an issue at all. I don't know what else to tell you than that. I have found it to clean well, without much of a residue. GB

Craig Maier

05-03-2008, 04:40 PM

I am not sure why there were suds - - - I have not experienced that problem nor have I noticed any obvious residue on the records afterwards. :confused:

Carlp

05-04-2008, 10:02 AM

Thanks, all. Well, maybe I'll try it again and see. Again, it certainly cleans well despite the suds and residue. Carl

15 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM

Craig's Record Cleaning Concoction [Archive] - Diamond Cut User Forum

http://www.diamondcut.com/vforum/archive/index.php/t-1775.html

Craig Maier Quoting Carip: "I also used a little more alcohol than called for in the recipe." ---------------------------------------------------------

05-04-2008, 05:52 PM

Could that have caused the solution to have become more sudsy? Anyway, it would seem that something is different with yours, just do not know what it is.

Carlp

05-05-2008, 07:57 AM

I'll try it again soon, this time with the proper amount of alcohol. Meanwhile, as a thought, is there any danger in using hydrogen peroxide on vinyl? I've seen it recommended for cleaning PVC fabric and vinyl car tops, and it seems like it might do a good job on fungus/mildew. Not sure how it would react with the other ingredients, but I was thinking about it as a substitute for the antibacterial soap (to reduce my sudsing problem). Carl

Craig Maier

05-05-2008, 10:22 AM

While Hydrogen Peroxide may kill fungus and mildew, it is also a very reactive oxidizer. I do not know what implications that oxidation action could have on the various ingredients which make up a vinyl record. Maybe give it a try on a record that you do not care about and see what happens. Powered by vBulletin Version 4.1.2 Copyright 2011 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

16 of 16

7/8/2011 8:21 AM