Erik Prince of Blackwater - Redacted.

Er i k Pr i nc e Vol .
08/ 23/ 2010
Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

Page 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EUROPEAN DEPOSITION SERVICES e-mail: info@european-depositions.comTel: +44 20 7385 0077 United States of America, ex rel. Melan Davis and Brad Davis : Civil Action No. : 1:08-CV-1244-TSE-TRJ : : Plaintiffs, : : vs. : : Erik Prince : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : Suite 800 : McLean, Virginia 22102 : : Blackwater Security Consulting: LLC : 850 Puddin Ridge Road : Moyock, North Carolina 27958 : : Xe Services LLC : (formerly EP Investments LLC : dba Blackwater Worldwide) : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : McLean, Virginia 22102 : U.S. Trading Center, Inc. : ("UTS") : (formerly Blackwater Lodge : and Training Center, Inc.) : 850 Puddin Ridge Road : Moyock, North Carolina 27958 : : Greystone Limited : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : Suite 800 : McLean, Virginia 22102 : and : 850 Puddin Ridge Road : Moyock, North Carolina 27958 : : The Prince Group LLC : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : Suite 800 : McLean, Virginia 22102 : : Defendants, : IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA Page 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 BY 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 VIDEOGRAPHER: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COURT REPORTER: Thelma Harries, MBIVR, ACR European Deposition Services 59 Chesson Road London W14 9QS Tel. 20 7385 0077 Fax. 20 7381 1756 e-mail: info@european-depositions.com DAVID ROSS European Deposition Services 59 Chesson Road London W14 9QS Tel. 20 7385 0077 Fax. 20 7381 1756 e-mail: info@european-depositions.com On behalf of the defendants and the witness: CROWELL & MORING LLP 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington DC 20004-2595 Tel. 202 624-2590 Fax. 202 628-5116 e-mail: rbeizer@cromwell.com BY : RICHARD L. BEIZER, ESQ : MS SUSAN L. BURKE, ESQ A P P E A R A N C E S: On behalf of the plaintiffs: BURKE PLLC 1000 Potomac Street Suite 150 Washington DC 20007 Tel. 202 386-9622 Fax. 202 445-1409 e-mail: sburke@burkepllc.com
Page 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION 9 OF 10 ERIK PRINCE 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Reported by: Thelma Harries, MBIVR, ACR EUROPEAN DEPOSITION SERVICES e-mail: info@european-depositions.comTel: +44 20 7385 0077 Taken at: Beach Rotana Hotel 2nd Street Sector 1 96 Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates 45200 Volume I Pages 1 to 191 on Monday, August 23, 2010 commencing at 9:11 a.m.
Page 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Exhibit No. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 - - - - - - - - - 22 23 24 25 Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 11 198 198 23 201 202 205 227 229 237 237 238 241 258 285 344 372 372 387 Page Deponent ERIK PRINCE Examination by Ms Burke 6 Cross-examination by Mr Beizer 391 Re-examination by Ms Burke 392 Re-cross-examination by Mr Beizer 393 -------------------------------------------------EXHIBIT INDEX Exhibits Marked During This Deposition: Page I N D E X
www.european-depositions.com
Pages 1 - 4

Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr Prince. VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the court please. MS BURKE: Melan and Brad Davis. MR BEIZER: Rick Beizer representing Susan Burke representing 9:11 a.m. VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is Page 7
the beginning of tape 1 volume 1 in the video deposition of Mr Erik Prince. This is being held
at the Hotel Rotana in Abu Dhabi. This deposition is being taken on 23rd August at 11 minutes past 9 a.m., as indicated on the video screen. This deposition is in the matter of United States of America ex rel Melan Davis and Brad Davis versus Erik Prince et al. action number is 1:08-CV-1244-TSE-TRJ. The court reporter present today is Thelma Harries of European Deposition Services Limited, as is David Ross, who is also contracted by European Deposition Services Limited. Would counsel introduce themselves, The civil
reporter please swear in the witness.
Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 record? A Q Erik Prince. What's -MR BEIZER: Ms Burke, excuse me. BY MS BURKE: Q Please state your name for the ERIK PRINCE having duly been sworn was examined and did testify as follows: EXAMINATION
Page 8
Before you begin may I make just a couple of comments? MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: Yes, you may. One is, as I've stated to
the court reporter, we'd like an opportunity to review and correct the record, as permitted under Rule 30(e), and I'd also like the exhibits attached to the deposition, Rule 30(f)(2). Also I need to state on the record that, although Mr Prince is appearing today as we've discussed, his appearance today does not waive any right that he or the other defendants have to contest subject-matter jurisdiction. With those comments, Ms Burke, thank
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Page 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 case? one? A Q I don't remember. Do you remember the courts that the Q Who was the plaintiff in the second Page 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I've no idea. Was the Indiana case a Federal or a 9 10 11 No idea. Who represented you in the Virginia 12 13 14 15 16 17 I don't know. Who's representing you today? He is. (Indicating) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q instruction? A Q A Yes, I am. You know that you've been sued? I understand that. MS BURKE: complaint, Exhibit 1. (Exhibit 1 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q If you'd take a quick look at that? I have before you the I'll listen to my counsel. Are you following your counsel's
cases were filed in? A Q a State case? A Q State case? A Q Virginia, and I think in Indiana. Was the Virginia a Federal case or
You understand that's the lawsuit that brings you here today? A Q A Q Right. Do you know Melan Davis? No. Have you reviewed any records
What lawyer? A Q I don't know. What lawyer represented you in the
Indiana case? A Q A Q A Q
relating to Melan Davis? MR BEIZER: Again, I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer to the extent that any answer would involve anything that he discussed or learned or saw in connection with his meeting and discussions with counsel. To the extent, however, that, independent of that, Mr Prince has seen such
Are you on any type of medication? Are you kidding me? No. Are you on any medication that
could interfere with your memory or that could influence your testimony?
Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Nothing that would interfere with
Page 12 1 2 3 4 Correct. You understand you're under oath? Yes. And do you understand that -- well, 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 I spent some time with him yesterday. How much time? A few hours. Did you look at any documents? MR BEIZER: I'm going to instruct the 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Mr Prince, are you going to answer 24 25 documents, he can answer the question. Ms Burke, may I have a -- rather than doing that every time, may we assume -MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: No. -- that your questions May I
anything like that, no. Q that, though? A Q A Q You're on medications other than
may just finish and then you can respond?
assume that your questions are not seeking anything which would reveal what Mr Prince and I discussed or what documents Mr Prince and I reviewed, so I don't have to -MS BURKE: a disagreement. I think we have
let me ask you a different question. Do you believe yourself still subject to the laws of the United States? A Q deposition? A Q A Q Certainly. What did you do to prepare for this
I do not believe the case law
supports the invocation of the privilege for the reviewing of documents for a deposition, so I'm afraid, as cumbersome as it may be, you're going to have to state your objection for the record because it may be a matter we need to take up with the court if I feel that the failure to answer is of some import. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, have you reviewed any
witness not to answer that question because it impinges on the attorney/client and the work product privilege. BY MS BURKE: Q the question?
personnel records or any other records relating to Melan Davis? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Same instruction. Same answer, so you can
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Page 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 instruction. BY MS BURKE: Q complaint? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: The same instruction. I'm following counsel's Mr Prince, have you read the cut and paste. BY MS BURKE: Q Just to make sure that the record is Page 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A Q Correct. Have you read the complaint? MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: Again, same instruction. You're instructing 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR BEIZER: I'm instructing him not 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 listed. Q Have you sold any interests in any of No foundation. BY MS BURKE: Q A Q You can answer, Mr Prince. What's the question again? You know that the companies you Q And you know that the companies that
you created are the other defendants? MR BEIZER: Objection. Misleading.
clear, Mr Prince, your answer is that, other than something you may have reviewed with counsel, you've not reviewed anything related to Melan Davis?
created are the other defendants? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: The same objection. Companies I created.
Mr Prince not to answer whether or not he has read the complaint?
What do you mean by "created"? BY MS BURKE: Q A That you started? Sure. I understand that they're also
to answer to the exent that revealing that answer would or giving that answer would reveal whether or not he's discussed certain documents with me in preparation for this deposition. Other than that, the same He can answer the question.
the defendants to anybody else? A Q Well, let's see the -- no. Do you intend to appear at trial to
defend yourself? A If it goes to trial I would imagine
I'll make myself available. Q Do you know who is going to -- who
else is going to attend and testify for the
Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 instruction. advice. Next question.
Page 16 1 2 Have you done anything to look into Have you hired -- for example, have you 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR BEIZER: Again, the same 11 12 13 14 (To the witness) You can answer the 15 16 17 Mr Prince, have you reviewed any 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 companies? A Q No idea. That's not something you've given any
BY MS BURKE: Q Ms Davis?
thought to yet? A Q No. Do you understand that the lawsuit
hired a personal investigator? A Q A Q to Mr Davis? No. Do you know Brad Davis? No. Have you reviewed any records related
accuses you of being involved in the preparation of false musters? A What's your defence to that charge? There are very competent people in
the company and I'm sure they're preparing and will do so suitably. What our defence is, I'm sure our lawyers will have a -- well, our people together with the lawyers will have a very solid defence. Q But what is it? What's going to be
To the extent he's reviewed records
in meetings with counsel, I instruct the witness not to answer.
question subject to that limitation. BY MS BURKE: Q
your defence, your defence to the charges that you were personally aware of the submission of false documents to the United States government? A anything. Q of anything. You say you weren't personally aware You weren't personally aware of any I wasn't personally aware of
records relating to Brad Davis other than records you reviewed with counsel? A Q No. And you know that you have been
permitted by the court to be an individual defendant in the lawsuit? A I understand that.
of the conduct that's alleged in the complaint? A Having read through this was the
first I heard of any of this.
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Page 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q I understand maybe it's the first you Page 19 1 2 3 4 Confusing. 5 6 7 8 Well, Mr Prince -Yes, be a bit more specific of 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 again. THE WITNESS: I may answer it again? Objection. (To the witness) You may answer screening and all those screening processes that we abide. Q Mr Prince, would the answer -- the
heard of it but, when you read it, did that jive with information that you already had from your supervision of the companies? MR BEIZER: Objection.
answer is not to my question. My question is you've been accused of knowingly providing, to the United States, men who were on steroids at the time. to that accusation? MR BEIZER: Asked and answered. What is your defence
Perhaps you could go through this one-by-one instead of the entire complaint. BY MS BURKE: Q A
"What's your defence to the entire complaint?" Come on, go through it line-by-line. Q Mr Prince, if your defence is going
to be that you deny everything, why would we need to go through it line-by-line? Is your defence going to be that you deny everything in the complaint? A I don't know that we need to lay our
We have policies and procedures that were put in place in accordance with the contract that I believe were followed. BY MS BURKE: Q That you believe were followed. Is
defence strategy to you right now. Q Actually you do. That's what
it your testimony that they were always followed and that you never provided men who were on steroids to the United States government? A I'm sure you've reviewed the
discovery is for.
This is why I came over here to
take your deposition, Mr Prince, so that I could understand what you and the others were going to be putting on at trial. That's why we do this.
employment records that some people were terminated because of random drug testing and, if they didn't abide by the policies, they were released in
Have you read the complaint?
Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 instruction. BY MS BURKE: Q A Go ahead and answer, Mr Prince. Same instruction. I'm going to MR BEIZER: Again, the same
Page 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 I understand all that, Mr Prince. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 There's 22 23 24 25 accordance with the procedures laid out by the customer, the US government that we were serving. Q So is that that on occasion you did
provide people who were on steroids to the United States government but, when you found out about it, you subsequently terminated them? A I don't know the details of that but,
listen to my lawyer. Q You've been accused of providing the
United States government with men who were taking steroids. A What's your defence to that allegation? Well, the security services that we
you know, you do random drug testing to test people to make sure that they're abiding by the policies laid out. Q I understand that, Mr Prince, but my
provided, there's a very long and detailed contract provided by the State Department to the bidders and you bid on it. Q
question was is it accurate then that you did provide men who were under the influence of steroids to the United States government but, when you subsequently found out about it, you terminated them? A I don't know what the reason for each If it was a good order
What I'm asking is a more specific -A Q A Q A I'm going to answer the question. Can you please -Let me answer the question. Please do. You know that there's policies and
and every termination was.
discipline issue, if it was a drug issue, if they violated the alcohol policy. I don't know. things. Q You say you're not down to the weeds. Whatever those are,
procedures that they expect us to abide by. There's recruiting and vetting standards. screening.
I'm not down to the weeds on those
They review the resumis of the guys.
They approve the bials it goes through and, as part of that, there is drug screening and psychological
Are you aware of any terminations for the independent contractor being on steroids?
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Page 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Is that something you intend to look misleading. THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. A Q I can't list a name, no. Other than listing a name, though, Page 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Now, you've been accused of providing 19 20 21 22 How do you define "excessive force"? Contract itself. Not in keeping with 23 24 25 counsel? MS BURKE: I'm sorry, I don't. I had thought I had as Exhibit 4? (Exhibit 4 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, you've been handed a MS BURKE: Can you please mark this
are you aware that your company terminated people for being on steroids? A Q A Q I'm not sure. You're not sure one way or the other? No. So as you sit here today you really
non-classified excerpted copy of the contract that is something that the United States released publicly. Please take a moment to review it and then I'd like you to answer the question about whether or not you provided the United States government with men who repeatedly used excessive force? MR BEIZER: Do you have a copy for
don't know whether or not your company provided the US with men on steroids? MR BEIZER: You just don't know? Objection. That's
into before trial, Mr Prince? A documents. Q I'm sure I'll be caused to read many
not intended to introduce it.
Mr Prince would come to the deposition familiar with the terms of the contract. THE WITNESS: Do you happen to know
the US with men who repeatedly used excessive force. What's your defence to that allegation,
what page because it's going to be a while for me to find the page here? MS BURKE: Here, I'll take a look and
Mr Prince? A Q
see if I can locate it for you, Mr Prince. MR BEIZER: Can I see it after you're
the terms of the contract?
Page 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 at -THE WITNESS: VIDEOGRAPHER: Time's flying. -- 9:27 a.m., as know". A Q Who defines "excessive force"? The terms of the contract, Mr Prince,
Page 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 Mr Prince, do you know what the 7 8 9 10 11 If you have a copy of it, we'll be 12 13 14 Let me get that then. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 jury". BY MS BURKE: Q You understand, Mr Prince, that this done? MS BURKE: for you, Mr Prince? Do you need me to find it
as you know, lay out what is to be done. MR BEIZER: No foundation. Objection to the "as you
(Same handed to counsel) I'm glad it's cold in
THE WITNESS:
here because I was sweating this morning, but it's actually much cooler this morning. MS BURKE: Mr Prince, you're still on
BY MS BURKE: Q
contract says about the use of force? A Well, I understand there's a use of I couldn't quote it to you right
the record so what you say she has to transcribe, so if you would please just simply remain silent, that would be of help. BY MS BURKE: Q (After a pause) Mr Prince, while I'm
force continuum. now.
happy to read through it and analyse it line-by-line with you. MS BURKE:
locating the contract terms, what is it that you recall about the contract provisions on the use of force? A The Department, the Department of
We'll just go off the record for a moment. VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record
State or the US government, whatever entity you're working for, it provides a use of force continuum as part of their rules of engagement. Q Explain for the jury, if you would,
indicated on the video screen. (A short recess at 9:27 a.m.) (Resumed at 9:29 a.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: record at 9:29 a.m. We're back on the
what you mean by a use of force continuum? MR BEIZER: Objection to the "for the
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Page 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 videotape can be played to the jury? A Q I guess that's possible. And so can you explain, please, for Page 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q And what is it that has to be done 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 You're 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q A Q Yes. Of course. The question I originally asked you
the jury in layman's terms what you mean by "use of force continuum"? A Well, as part of these guard services
was what your defence was going to be about whether or not you provided the US with men who repeatedly used excessive force? A Q I do now. And you said, well, that you couldn't Do you recall that question?
there's certainly firearms that are issued, and so it's, as I understand it, it's the progression of force as to when the, you know, legal force can be used.
really tell me what your defence was until you had seen the contract term on the use of deadly force, is that right? A to you was: Q Well, no. I think that my question
before legal force can be used? A Why don't we wait 'til you get the
contract out and we'll review it? Q I'm asking for your knowledge,
How do you define "excessive force"? And I responded to you that the way
separate from the contract, Mr Prince? A Q I'm asking for the contract. You don't have any knowledge?
we're going to define it is as the contract defines it. Do you recall that line of questioning? A Q Yes, I think so. Now, and I have the contract
in this business and you don't have any knowledge as to what can be done before deadly force is used? A I don't know all the exact parameters
reference to the use of deadly force, but before I provide it to you let me ask, without seeing this contract are you able to tell me what your defence to the allegation is that you knowingly provided, to the United States, men who had repeatedly breached the contract terms on the use of deadly
and it's been a while since I've done that so... Q When you say "the exact parameters",
what's your general understanding as to what has to be done before deadly use of force may be used?
Page 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A contract? Q But, first, I want to find out what Why don't we have a look at the
Page 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A There's various, you know. Whatever 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 I don't. Have you looked at this issue with 18 19 20 21 Objection. Vague. 22 23 24 25 times. force? A I have confidence that the team
provided people that were in accordance with the contract, with the screening, the vetting, the standards laid out by the various government contracting entities. Q And what's the source of your
you have in your mind without being refreshed by the contract terms, Mr Prince. What do you know right as you sit here today without having the contract in front of you?
confidence, Mr Prince? A The management team and the policies
the threat is, it has to be something that endangers the mission or the life. There is actually different rules of engagement for a DoD versus Department of State versus some other government entity so... Q Do you recall for the State
and procedures put in place to do the vetting and the training and the qualifications. Q So it's not that you've looked into It's just that you know who the
the issue at all?
management team was and you know what the policies and procedures are? A I've met with customers plenty of
Department what has to happen before deadly force may be used? A Q
I've gone and seen the people overseas.
I've gone to see the government chain of command. Those kind of people. Q And so one of the reasons for your
respect to your -- the men serving on a WPPS contract in the past? MR BEIZER:
confidence is that the government hasn't complained to you? A I'm not sure. You know, we set out
(To the witness) THE WITNESS:
You may answer.
Have we looked at it?
to put the people out there to do a job and they're given, as I recall, the guys were given the use of
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Page 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 force continuum on a nearly daily basis prior to their missions. Q When you say "nearly daily basis Page 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 When I asked whether the fact that the meetings with the customers went well was one of the sources of your confidence, you said you weren't sure. Would you site to the United States reaction to your company's provision of services as one of the factors in your confidence or not? A Well, I would certainly expect that, 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 give you confidence that you can defend yourself against the allegation you provided men who used excessive force? A That to my knowledge. I'm sure
prior to their missions", are you saying that your management team ensured that everyone who was serving on a WPPS contract was briefed daily on the parameters of the use of force? A I don't know if it was daily, but it
there's plenty of other people that are even smarter, much smarter than me in the company, that were responsible for making sure those procedures were in place. Q A Q Mr Prince? A I'm sure you'll talk to people like Who is that? A long list of people. Go ahead and give it to me,
was on a regular basis. Q Just going back to something. You had said previously that you were confident because of the management team and the policies and procedures, and then, when I asked whether that was all, you referenced meetings with the customers.
Danielle Esposito. Q A Q She's no longer with the company? I'm not sure what her status is. You referenced your confidence in
your management team as one of the reasons you thought you were going to be able to defend yourself against the charge of -- the excessive force charge. Who do you put in that category of management team, and we're talking here of the time frame '03 forward? A Well --
if the customers were not happy with us, they would be reporting that on a regular basis.
Page 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 says. Q So those are the two factors that Q But my question is a slightly
Page 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 And a second factor is you had 10 11 12 13 A Q A Yes. Is there a third factor? Well, between our procedures and the 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 either. Q You don't know who your management MR BEIZER: frame of '03 forward. Objection to the time
different one, Mr Prince. I'm trying to get, essentially, a laundry list of why it is you're confident that your companies did not provide to the United States government men who repeatedly used excessive force. I understand one factor is that you had confidence in your management team, correct? A Q Yes. Okay.
The complaint -Yes, I can't list for
THE WITNESS: you the entire man -MR BEIZER:
Excuse me, sir.
The complaint with respect to these charges begins in 2005. (To the witness) THE WITNESS: management team was in '05. BY MS BURKE: Q A Who was the management team in '03? I'm not sure who that would have been You can answer.
I'm not sure who the
confidence that you had implemented the policies and procedures that were required by the contract, correct?
team was in 2003? A Q I didn't. A How do you define "management team"? You used the phrase, Mr Prince. How did you mean it? The people in charge of doing
government procedures that's, you know, picking the qualified people with the right experience, the right training, vetting backgrounds, and you send them out to abide the customer's rules or use of force continuum. Q A That's what the contract says.
security operations or the people in charge of doing -- doing what? Q What do you want to know?
I understand that's -We are there to do what the contract
Mr Prince, I'm trying to do is
understand your testimony. You testified that you were confident
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Page 33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you're going to be able to defend yourself because you had such trust in your management team. Now Page 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 Let's see, who was there in '05? Tying it down to 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Gary Jackson, Danielle. I'm not sure 18 19 20 21 So when you referred to having 22 23 24 25 THE WITNESS: It takes a good size
team, so I'm not sure who was in a WPPS role versus a government training role, so I'm not sure whose exactly roles or responsibilities were what, pertaining to your issue. BY MS BURKE: Q And just so you understand,
I'm trying to understand who those people are. When you used the phrase "management team" in your past testimony, who were you referring to? A
Well, I know Gary Jackson was. '05, I'm not sure -Q Mr Prince.
Mr Prince, and I want to make sure the record is clear, what I'm trying to get at is the sources of your own confidence in your defence. And I take
I'm not tying it down to '05, I'm asking you to define for me who was
you haven't had any investigation of the allegations undertaken, correct? You haven't
on the management team that you had such confidence in that you are sure you're going to be able to defend yourself against the charge that your men used excessive force? Who is that management team The one that you have
looked into the allegations at all? A I'm not sure what investigations the
company has done pertaining to these. Q A But you -There's lots of scurrolous
that you were referring to? confidence in? A
accusations get thrown at the company from disgruntled employees. Q So your view is that these are
who was running the State Department programmes back in '05 because they rotated to various other positions. Q
scurrolous allegations that needn't bother to be looked into with any real care, right? A We investigate, you know, if it's
confidence that you had not been providing the United States with men who used excessive force, you were referring to your confidence in Gary
a hot line call or if it's a -- any kind of fraudulent claim, yes, we investigate it and the
Page 34
Page 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 done. Q But you, as you sit here today, you government auditors audit us all the time. Q So what have you done to investigate
the allegations in the lawsuit? A I'm not sure what procedures were
don't have any information whatsoever that's come out of any investigation that's been done? A an IG report. Q Mr Prince, that's obviously the What I'm asking you is I recall there was a DHS -- I think
government investigating.
about you or people under your control investigating. I take it from your testimony you have not had any investigation done into the allegations? A There have been so many
investigations thrown at the team over the last three years that I'm not sure -- I'm very confident Hurricane Katrina-related contracts were audited, CPA contracts and WPPS contracts have all been audited repeatedly. Q But just to be clear, Mr Prince, that
investigation is being done by the United States
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Page 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 government not by you, right? A Well, we're fully cooperating and we Page 39 1 2 3 4 Q And you say you're fully cooperating 5 6 7 8 You may answer. 9 10 11 12 And how many investigations are you 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Who would you 25 THE WITNESS: MS BURKE: copy made on the break. introduce this one. Let's just introduce the one page as the exhibit then, Mr Beizer, if you're uncomfortable with having the whole contract in front of him. MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: It's Mr Beizer. Mr Beizer, excuse me. And I'm not uncomfortable Sure.
And, Rick, we can have a I had not intended to
did all the internal audits and accountants as well.
with a litany of pending government investigations? MR BEIZER: Objection.
Mischaracterises the testimony. (To the witness) THE WITNESS: fully cooperating. BY MS BURKE: Q
So far as I know, we're
about it, the whole thing, except to the extent that you've characterised it as part of the contract from the notation R in the number there? MS BURKE: Well, what I'm referring
cooperating with? A Q A I don't know. Is it more than twenty? Oh, I don't know. I don't know if
to is simply that the first page refers to -- that the document was provided pursuant to a FOIA request. It is in no way the full contract. It's an unclassified version that was produced publicly but, given that this deposition is not under seal, I thought it was important to use non-classified information at this point. MR BEIZER: the rest of it? MS BURKE: I'm going to hand you just Okay. Again, may I see
it's that many. Q A Q A Q A Q Is it more than ten? I don't know the exact number. Is it more than two? I would say it's more than two. Would you say it's more than ten? Could be. Who knows, Mr Prince?
Page 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 direct me to in your company as knowledgeable about all these government investigations? A Fred Roitz, Danielle Esposito, and
Page 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I think 15 16 17 Mr Prince, I'm going to hand you what 18 19 20 21 22 May I see that, counsel, 23 24 25 the two so we don't use up a lot of tape time with having you look at the whole thing, so we'll exhibit just those two pages. And I would just simply ask that you provide them to the witness promptly, or go off the record if you'd like to take longer. THE WITNESS: is that an RFP? BY MS BURKE: Q I'm sorry, Mr Prince, you actually Is that the contract or
certainly the general counsel, Christian Bonat. Q A Q A Q Christian Bonat? Mmmm. B-o --- n-a-t. And how long has Christian Bonat been
your general counsel? A About a year. MR BEIZER: Mischaracterises. question. Objection.
are not allowed to ask questions. A Well, you're asking me to read it I'm asking you if it's
Objection to the form of the
like it's the contract. the contract. me. Q
I didn't take a copy of this with
it's been about a year. BY MS BURKE: Q
Actually, it's -- what I was trying
to do, Mr Prince, is you had previously said that you were unable to recall at all the use of force continuum, and so I was providing you one page that refers to the use of deadly force. I'm making no representations on the record that this is the entire contract. I was
we've marked as Exhibit 4 and direct you to page 73 of 187 and ask you whether paragraph 17, the use of deadly force, is the contract provision you were referring to previously? MR BEIZER:
providing it to be helpful to you because you seem to lack recall on that contract provision. If you still want to see it, that's
before you show it to the witness? MS BURKE: Sure.
Pages 37 - 40

Page 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 great. If not, it's not a problem, we can move on. MR BEIZER: Objection as to whether Page 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Would you like to see the document, 8 9 Sure. (Same handed to the witness) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Compound. 25 counsel. Q I don't want your imagination, sir. What you destroyed? A I was -- I would imagine the general
or not this is part of the contract. (To the witness) But you can take
a look at the document and see if it helps refresh your recollection. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince? A Q
I'd like to know what you actually did. recall doing? A
I recall seeing numerous e-mails from That would be the e-mail blast on
general counsel.
the document-hold procedure so... Q Do you recall seeing blue bags of
Mr Prince, does that refresh your
documents in the facilities? A Q No. Did you ever take any steps to assure
recall on the continuum of force that's permitted under the State Department's contract? A guideline. You know, this is, I think, a general This is not the detailed use of force
yourselves that documents were not being destroyed? A My office was a hundred and -- well,
continuum that the guys would be provided. Q I had previously asked whether you
232 miles by road from the facility down in North Carolina, so I was not there on a -- you know, maybe a twice-a-month basis. Q So you went down to -- you're
had investigated at all the allegations of the excessive use of force and you referred to government investigations, and I want to make sure the record is clear that neither you nor anyone under your control has initiated an investigation into the allegations that your company provided men who repeatedly used excessive force? MR BEIZER: Objection.
referring to Moyock, I assume? A Q Yes. So you went to Moyock approximately
twice a month when you were the CEO of the companies? A Two or three times a month, yes.
Page 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a while. Q But when you were the CEO -- when did (To the witness) THE WITNESS: You can answer.
Page 44 1 2 3 4 5 6 And was it company procedure to 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And during the -- and I take it that
Any time there is any
you also conducted business regarding the companies even when you were in your offices in McLean? A Q I would say, yes. And so my question is what steps did
kind of escalation of force there's an immediate after-action review or debrief. As I recall, that
would have been company procedure. BY MS BURKE: Q
you take to make sure the documents weren't being destroyed by the companies that were under your control? A Again, that's the primary
preserve those after-action reports? A Q I don't know. Did you take any steps to ensure that
responsibility of the general counsel. Q And so you put your faith in the
they were retained once lawsuits had been filed alleging the use of excessive force? A You know, the folks are used to
general counsel to handle that issue, right? A You delegate the authority and
having the document-hold procedures and all that, so I would imagine that was in effect. Q But you didn't do anything to make
responsibility and expect people to do their jobs. Q question? A Q Mmmm. You can't say "Mmmm". You have to And so is that a "yes" to my
sure that happened? A I've not been the CEO for quite
actually say "yes". A Q Yes. And the general counsel that you were
you stop being the CEO? A Q I think it's about a year now. So during your tenure as the CEO what
relying on at the time was Andrew Howell? A Q I think so. How long was Andrew Howell your
steps did you take to make sure that the documents relating to the use of excessive force were not
general counsel?
Pages 41 - 44

Page 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 counsel. Q time? A I would have known he was in-house I don't know what that day or year was. And prior to Howell serving as the counsel. Q A A Q I don't know. Was anyone other than Andrew Howell Page 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q And when did he leave? I'm not sure. Now you know that the government has
your general counsel? A I think he was the first in-house Before that we had various outside guys. Did you have any of the outside -And there was David Hammond was our
accused Andrew Howell of falsifying documents, right? A against Andy. Q A Q Have you read the indictment? A long time ago. I will represent for the record that I'm not sure of the exact charges
acting general counsel. Q A Q Hammond? Hammond. And, I'm sorry, I want to make sure
they have, in fact, accused Mr Howell of falsifying documents. Do you have any information one way or the other as to whether that's an accurate accusation? MR BEIZER: Objection.
I get the sequence right, Mr Prince. David Hammond was acting general counsel before or after Andrew Howell became in-house general counsel? A Q Howell, Hammond then Bonat. Before Howell -- Howell joined in
Ms Burke, do you have a proffer as to the relevance of what Mr Howell is charged with and how it relates to anything in the lawsuit that your clients have brought accusing Mr Prince and others -MS BURKE: Mr Prince has testified
'05, is that right? A Q I don't know. You don't recall but you knew at the
that he delegated the responsibility to ensure that documents were not destroyed to Mr Howell, and therefore I am going to be exploring Mr Prince's
in-house general counsel, you said you relied on
Page 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 counsel? A No. time. Q A How did you meet Mr Capace? The -- my wife then at the time was outside guys. Was there some outside lawyer that played the role of day-to-day general counsel for you? A I had a general counsel up north and
Page 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 His wife was named Stacy? 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Now, Mr Prince, you testified that view of Mr Howell and why he relied on him. MR BEIZER: I'm going to instruct the
witness not to answer anything with respect to Mr Howell's alleged involvement in the matter in which he stands indicted. (To the witness) questions other than that. MS BURKE: understanding the scope. it. I'm not sure I'm Well, we'll go through But you can answer
he filled in some of those gaps. Q A Q What was the name? Steve Capace, C-a-p-a-c-e. And when you say up north, you're
meaning in your McLean offices? A Q Right. Do you recall when Mr Capace began
I'll need you to just instruct him on each
question. MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: Sure. We need to make a record
working for you? A I think it would have been 2000 some
so that if we need to come back we can. MR BEIZER: Definitely.
friends with his wife. Q A Q A Q Stacy? Yes. And was this Joan or Joanna? Joan. Mr Capace is no longer with you as
you didn't take any steps on your own but you relied on Andrew Howell to make sure that no documents were destroyed, correct? A Q Regarding which suit? I'm not linking it to a specific I'm talking about the destruction
suit, Mr Prince.
of business records. You relied on Mr Howell to ensure
Pages 45 - 48

Page 49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 all? A Q A No. And instead you've -I haven't had any allegations made to records? A Q No. Have you looked into that matter at BY MS BURKE: Q Are you aware of any destruction of that business records were not destroyed, correct? A Mathews, Gary. Q A Q Let me ask -Danielle. Let me ask the question a slightly Well, there were Andy Howell, Bill Page 51
different way, Mr Prince. You appear to be confident that business records have not been destroyed by your companies? MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Is that a question? It is a question. Repeat. Yes.
me either so... Q Well, actually, Mr Prince, that's not
Page 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 accurate. I mean, in other lawsuits you've been -Were
Page 52
you were alleged to have destroyed documents. you aware of that? A Q No.
Do you read all the lawsuits that are
brought against you? A Q No. How many lawsuits are currently
pending against you, Mr Prince? A Q I'm not sure. Who would you direct me to for the
answer to that question? A Q Christian Bonat. Do you intend to be a permanent
resident of Abu Dhabi? A I don't know. I've committed my kids
to a year here. Q A
We'll see how it goes.
Why did you move here? Can we have a proffer as to why
that's germane? Q question. A Q A Why? Yes, why did you move here? I like it here. I spend a lot of No, Mr Prince. Please answer the
Pages 49 - 52

Page 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to? MR BEIZER: Same objection. I'm -THE WITNESS: Why do I need to A Q How is this germane? Mr Prince, you put in a declaration Page 55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Mr Prince, what school are they going 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 at 3 minutes past 10 a.m., as indicated on the video screen. (A short recess at 10:03 a.m.) (Resumed at 10:07 a.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
under oath about your kids going to school, so you injected this issue into the lawsuit. Now, are your kids going all to the same school and what grade -A Q Yes, they are. And what grades are they in? MR BEIZER: Objection. I'm going to
record at 7 minutes past 10 a.m., as indicated on the video screen. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, have you moved the
headquarters of your companies to Abu Dhabi? A Well, no. I'm selling off the US
disclose the ages of my children for you to leak to the media, like you've done hundreds of other times, placing my family at risk? you that. BY MS BURKE: Q I will not tell
operation and I do not have a headquarters that I've moved. Q And you're selling off only the US
operation, though? A Q businesses? A I have a contract manufacturing I'll keep. Selling off everything. You're trying to sell all of your
going to instruct the witness now not to answer. MS BURKE: Are you going to provide
business in the States that will stay. Q A Q A Q
I'm sorry, a contract manufacturing? Yes, not defence related. That's a different company? Correct. What's the name of that company?
evidence to me off the record to establish the school that his children are going to, Mr Beizer? MR BEIZER: the name of the school. I'm not going to tell you I'm going to tell you --
Page 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fine. Let's go off the record. see the evidence on this point. VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record I want to well. MS BURKE: I want to make sure -A Yes. MR BEIZER: He's answered that one as MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: But -If I may, Ms Burke?
Page 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 My question is has school started or 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 MS BURKE: Yes, I don't -- that's 21 22 23 24 25 else. Q A That's the only reason? I liked the Navy. The Academy didn't A Q A Prince Manufacturing. What does it manufacture? Pieces and parts for the hvac, Hvac, heating,
I'm going to tell you -- I'm going to give you the documents that demonstrate that Mr Prince's children are enrolled, as he said, at the school. That they came here to take tests on He's
industrial power, semi-automotive.
ventilation and air conditioning, industrial power. That kind of stuff. Q A Q A Is that located in Michigan? No. Where is that located? The plants are in Midwest North
the 15th in advance of their enrollment. testified that they are enrolled. BY MS BURKE: Q
Carolina, Mexico. Q A Q A Q operation? A Q A Q A No. Now, you quit the Naval Academy? I resigned after a year-and-a-half. Why? I wanted to seek education somewhere Do you wholly own that? Employees own some too. What percentage do you own? I would say more than 90 per cent. And no present plans to sell that
because you're talking about taking tests. MR BEIZER: He answered previously You asked what
that his children are enrolled.
grades and he refused to answer, and I think that's appropriate.
Pages 53 - 56

Page 57 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -- you know, I was not getting the education I was seeking there so I left. Q Have you read a book about you by Page 59 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I 25 goods. Q And so a sheriff in Chesapeake gave
you law enforcement credentials? A authority. Q A Q No arrest authority? I don't believe they did. And you used them to go to the head They were not -- they had no arrest
Suzanne Simons? A Q A Q I've heard of it, yes. Have you read it? I've read most of it, I think. She portrayed your departure from the
of the line at airports? A Q A Q A Q A No. You never did that? No. Did they get taken away from you? No. I don't remember.
Academy as linked in some way to being tardy one day. Was that an accurate portrayal? A You know, I think the story she's
recalling is I'd gone on a -- there was a federal holiday, so there was a long weekend, and it allowed me to take a long weekend with my parents, and we went to a ranch-like facility. out running. Came back. And I went
Do you still have them? I think they're in my household There's boxes of stuff.
A shower handle broke in
I'm not sure. Q
my hand -- it was a little porcelain one -- and it severed the inside of my thumb, it cut the nerve in a tendon. That happened on Saturday. Sunday, I -- Sunday night we flew back to Michigan. On Monday my dad had called
So your understanding is that you're
still a deputised law enforcement official? A Q A years past. Q And it's your testimony that they No, there's an expiration date on it. And what was the expiration date? I don't remember, but it's a few
ahead and got a hand surgery scheduled because literally the nerve and the tendon were severed, and he called -Q Mr Prince, I'm sorry to interrupt.
were never revoked from you because of complaints? A (No response)
Page 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 think. No. Q credentials? A Q A I did. Tell me how you got those, Mr Prince? It was an observe function from Virginia. But you did obtain law enforcement it. Q And that's fine. If you don't I was don't need the story. I just need to know whether
Page 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I don't know what the portrayal was, 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Chesapeake Virginia, I 24 25 this?" to you? A Q Q I had heard that they had been taken
you agree with her portrayal of it as accurate. Perhaps you misunderstood and want -A I don't remember how she portrayed
away from you because people complained about your use of them? A Q A Q No. That's not accurate? No, that's not accurate. Okay. And who was it that gave them
remember how she portrayed it, that's fine.
really asking you whether you were comfortable with her portrayal? A
The name of the person? I don't remember the sheriff's name. How did you -- did you call up the
so I was giving you the story. Q Okay, well then we'll move on. Have you ever been trained as a law enforcement officer? A Trained as a law enforcement officer?
sheriff and ask him for these credentials? A Q A I'm not sure how that happened. Why did you want them? I don't know. We had done a lot of
things for the law enforcement, we'd supported it, and it was a -- you know, there's a lot of auxiliary law enforcement credentials that are issued to people. Q A Q A But why did you want them? It's not something I really pursued. Then how did you end up getting them? They said, "Hey, would you like to do
Chesapeake, I think. Q A
So some -Chesapeake.
And it was a nice gift or thank you or
whatever for the work we'd done for the law enforcement.
I think it was Chesapeake. I'm not sure.
Pages 57 - 60

Page 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And you don't remember who it is Page 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Malta? A Q A Q A I am an inactive member. Inactive? Yes. What is the Order of Malta? It's a charitable organisation, and Q And it's of some value? Over
that's giving you this thank you gift? A Q No. And do you recall what work it was
$100,000 value? A Q A Q A Q I don't know what the value is. It was a Christmas gift to you? Christmas or birthday. Are you a member of Opus Dei? No. Are you a member of the Order of
that you had done that prompted the thank you gift? A It probably was training. I mean,
I know we provided free training to a lot of law enforcement departments from the Hampton Roads area. South East of Virginia, Northeast, North I would imagine that's
Carolina, all those areas. what it was for. Q
Did you get more than one set of law
enforcement credentials as a thank you? A I think there was one from Kertak
earlier and then Chesapeake. Q A Q A Q Did you ever display them in any way? You mean wear them openly? No.
all I've ever done with them is wash dishes and serve meals to homeless people at the Sisters of Charity house in Anacostia, Washington, DC. Q Did you hire anybody for your
Did you ever use them at all? I don't recall. You don't recall one way or the other
executive team that was also a member of the Order of Malta? A Q A I think Joe Schmitz was. Is that how you met him? No. I think I met him at a --
whether you used them? A No. The only thing I recall is, when
you put it in the x-ray machine going through airports, they always ask if you're carrying a weapon, and I said "no".
I don't know where I met him. Q And you hired him to do what for you?
Page 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1901. Q A And it works? I've never fired it. It's alleged to Q Were you permitted to carry a weapon
Page 64 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I have an antique Gatling gun from 20 21 22 23 24 25 a while. Q Now, you had previously given me the A He was general counsel for me for
by virtue of these law enforcement credentials? A Q A Q A I don't know. You collect weaponry? How do you -- how do you define that? Do you collect sniper rifles? I have hunting rifles with scopes.
list of general counsels and did not mention him. Was that just an oversight? A General counsel. He was general
counsel to Prince Group up north. Q Okay. Let me get that clear, then.
If you define that as a sniper rifle, maybe that's a sniper rifle but... Q A Q Did you go to sniper school? As a SEAL, I did. How do you define sniper rifles? Do you
So the list that you gave me was -- do you call that down south? A Q A Yes. So the list you gave me -And so I could also add Joe Schmitz,
I don't know guns, Mr Prince, and you do. have what you would call sniper rifles? A Q A Q is that right? A I have a few, sure.
the guy that would have been charged with maintaining document holds, the provision, and all the rest. Q That was going to be my question. Can you give me the names of all of the general counsels of your McLean office? A Steve Capace, Joe Schmitz, and then
Would you say you're a collector? Not nearly like I used to be. You own an operational Gatling gun,
it's been some outside lawyers. Q A Which ones? Well, David Hammond has helped, and
have gone around the world with the Great White Fleet with "Teddy" Roosevelt so...
then there's various lawyers representing the company or me in these various suits and
Pages 61 - 64

Page 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not? "fair". THE WITNESS: A fast-rolling, allegations and everything else. Q No, but what I'm interested in is Page 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Would it be fair to say it was 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Have you ever testified before 21 22 I don't think so. You don't think so or no you have 23 24 25 witness not to answer the question. MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: Grounds? On the grounds that it's
just the lawyers that played the role of general counsel? A A day-to-day role as opposed to -Capace and Schmitz were the only ones
-- it seeks information that is privileged or may be privileged. (To the witness) MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: But -If I may. To the extent that So to the extent --
that were full in there. Q In terms of reporting structure, did
the general counsels in the Moyock operations report up north into the general counsel up north? A structure was. concern was. Q I'm not sure how the reporting It depended on what the area of
(To the witness)
the answer would not involve any privileged communication that you had about the subject-matter of Ms Burke's question, you can answer it. To the extent that it does, I instruct you not to answer. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, what I -- what I want to
a fairly informal structure that was fluid? MR BEIZER: Objection. Vague as to
do is ask you only about discussions you've had with DOJ attorneys. I'm not interested in any
fast-moving business, things were always fluid, I guess. BY MS BURKE: Q a grand jury? A Q
discussions you had with your own attorneys about trying to get a global settlement. What I want to ask you is whether you've had meetings or telephonic discussions with DOJ officials trying to get yourself a global settlement? MR BEIZER: And that's Mr Prince, as
Page 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q I don't believe I have. Have you ever reviewed written
Page 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Not me individually, no. Have you had any communications from 12 13 14 15 No. Have you had any communications with 16 17 18 19 Whether I would be indicted? No. 20 21 22 23 24 I'm going to instruct the 25 BY MS BURKE: Q I'm asking whether you sent people his behalf. with DOJ. MR BEIZER: I understand. You can answer. opposed to people acting on his behalf? MS BURKE: No, and people acting on
transcripts of grand jury testimony by others in your organisation? A Q No. Have you ever discussed with anyone
That's not privileged because it's
(To the witness) THE WITNESS:
their testimony before going into a grand jury? A Q No. Have you had any communications from
I would imagine that
the companies' attorneys have been talking to DOJ about all those kind of matters. BY MS BURKE: Q When you say you would imagine, I
DOJ indicating that you're a suspect in any investigation? A Q
really am asking for your knowledge, Mr Prince. Do you know that you were having people try to get a global settlement of all your matters with the Department of Justice? MR BEIZER: Again, I'm going to
DOJ indicating that you're a target in any investigation? A Q
instruct the witness not to answer because that's asking about his communications with counsel. MS BURKE: No.
DOJ about whether or not you would be indicted for anything? A Q
Have you attempted to reach a global
settlement with DOJ on all of the legal matters confronting your companies? A As I -MR BEIZER:
over to DOJ to meet with them to try to get a global settlement? Did you do that, Mr Prince? I think -Again, I'd have to be
MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS:
Pages 65 - 68

Page 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, but will you provide communicating with the lawyers so... MR BEIZER: the witness not to answer. BY MS BURKE: Q your lawyers. What I'm asking is whether there were -- whether there were actions and discussions with a third party, namely, with the Department of Justice on your behalf? That's not a privileged I don't want your communications with And I'm going to instruct Page 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 MS BURKE: I disagree. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -MR BEIZER: And, again, I'm going to it -BY MS BURKE: Q Did anyone other than your counsel ATF. You know, all regarding rolled into the DOJ
investigations and it's all kinds of -- all kinds of looking. BY MS BURKE: Q A Q And that looking it still going on? It's pretty much winding down. Who told you that? MR BEIZER: Again, to the extent that
communication because it's with other people. MR BEIZER: To the extent, however,
tell you it was winding down? A I guess I can only track that by the
he would have learned about it from communications with counsel, either at his behest going over there or returning and telling them about that, that I believe is in the scope of the privilege, and so I'm going to instruct him not to answer. disagree. You may
instruct the witness not to answer because by answering he's clearly revealing whether or not it was counsel. Let me try that again. MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: Yes. (To the witness) To the
an answer to the question asked? A Q instruction? I will defer to my counsel. You're following your counsel's
exent that your answer would not reveal what you and your counsel discussed about the "winding down" of the investigations, you can answer the question. In other words, not saying whether
Page 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Violation. A Q personally? A Q A Q A Q That I don't know. And how many on your companies? A lot. More than twenty? Probably. And can you tell me the topics of the Yes. How subpoenas have been served on you
Page 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Objection. Compound. 12 13 Yes. Civil suits. I don't know if it 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Any other topics other than export 22 23 24 25 not. BY MS BURKE: Q You've never described it that way, consider? THE WITNESS: No, that's definitely be less. BY MS BURKE: Q A You've written a book? I have not written a book. I've put you learned anything from counsel or not, but outside of any discussions you may have had with counsel on the subject. THE WITNESS: The legal bills seem to
some thoughts together, assembled some chapters, and we are looking for a publisher so... Q Is it called Chicken Soup for the
subpoenas to the extent that you recall them and how you think of them? MR BEIZER: Let's try one at a time. THE WITNESS:
Mercenary Soul? A Q A No. What's it called? I don't have a title yet but that's
Export violations.
was either the FBI's Nisour Square investigation. I don't know if those were subpoenas or whether they just sent document requests. I'm not sure of
-- that's the first time I've ever heard those words. MR BEIZER: Something you may want to
the verbiage, but we certainly provided lots of trees worth of paper. BY MS BURKE: Q
violations and Nisour Square? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: And civil suits, he said. Civil suits, commerce,
kind of comparing it -A Not ever even remotely that way.
Pages 69 - 72

Page 73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I don't know who your sources are but they ought to wake up. Q That's not it. Has the State Department asked you Page 75
not to publish the book? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A No. Have you run it by them? It's not to that point yet. You don't have a publisher yet? No. Have you approached publishers? Approached some agents. How long is it? I don't know. What's it about? Our experience in building the
business and operating it and where the private sector can help in national security matters in some, you know, cost-saving proposals for the defence department going forward. Q all in it? A Q A Q That chapter is not written yet. Do you intend to write that? Some day. Now, you were initially married to Do you talk about Nisour Square at
Page 74 1
Page 76
Pages 73 - 76

Page 77 Page 79
Page 78 1
Page 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ago. Q A Q A When was that dissolved? I would guess a year or two ago. Why was it dissolved? I don't know. well? A Q United States? A Q A Q A Q Yes. Most of them? Mmmm. You can't say Mmmm. Yes. And have you made any effort to move You have to -Yes. Are any of Greystone's assets in the company? A Q Yes. You're trying to sell that company as A Q Chris Burgess. And you're the sole owner of that
any of the assets of Greystone outside of the United States? A Q A No. You have a company called Damocles? I think that was dissolved a while
Pages 77 - 80

Page 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know? A Q Correct. Christian Bonat wasn't with you when Q A Q A Q A But it's your company? Yes. You wholly-owned it? Yes. Why -There's companies that get started Page 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 I'm not sure. I don't know. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I don't know when 20 21 22 23 I would guestimate. 24 25 this is all privileged". I need to talk to people
who have knowledge about these things. A Q A may know. Q A Q Anybody else? No, not that I can think of. You talked about cleaning up the org Yes, he would be the guy that knows. Is he the only guy that knows? Gary Jackson and Bill Mathews. They
sometimes that you have on the shelf and you might not do something with them, so you clean up the org chart to make it simpler and manageable. Q first place? A Q A Q Why did you start Damocles in the
chart and closing down companies. What is the current org chart? many companies do you have? A Q I don't know. Except, excuse me, setting aside the How
Who would know that? Probably Christian Bonat. Your lawyer would know but you don't
manufacturing facilities that you testified about earlier? A The aviation business was sold off. There was the US
That was Presidential Airways. Training Center, Greystone. down. Q A Q A TIS?
Damocles began though? A I don't know.
TIS, that was shut
Damocles started. Q But you know that it was dissolved
Total Intelligence Solutions. Okay. That was -- I don't know if it's been There's
a year or two ago? A Q I don't know. What did it do?
dissolved yet, but there's no employees.
Page 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Bonat? Q And he's permitted to testify on these answers? A Why don't you talk to Christian A Q I'm not sure what it did. Did you get a million dollar bonus
Page 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 I need a name, Mr Prince, because 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 machine? A No. The offices were vacated and TIS. Q A Q Was Terrorism Research part of TIS? Yes. And so that's no longer an BY MS BURKE: Q A What about Terrorism Research? That would have been shut down with that again? MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: What about Paravant? How do you spell that? P-a-r-a-v-a-n-t-e. no business activity there, at least. Q A Q A back as well. MR BEIZER: I'm sorry, could you say Anything else? That's all I can think of. What about Paravant? I think that was shut down a while
from Damocles one year? A Q I don't think so. Did you ever get any bonuses through
the vehicle Damocles? A Q I don't believe so. Did you ever pay any other people
bonuses through the vehicle of Damocles, sir? A Q A from legal. Q I don't know. Who would know the answer to that? Probably someone from accounting or
I need to depose people, so I need names of people that know things. Who would you direct me to to provide
operational company? A Q A Q Correct. But there are still offices? No. There is still at least a fax
these matters despite the fact that he's your counsel? You're putting him forward to testify? I don't want to waste my time, sir. I don't want to get there and have him say, "Well,
Pages 81 - 84

Page 85 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I think. Q somebody else? A Q A Yes. Who did it shift to? I don't know. Some IT company. When you say "shifted", shifted to occupied by someone else. Q Done. Page 87 1 2 3 4 That could have been just something 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 counsel? A Q No. Does Chris Burgess rely on the sir? A Q Chris Burgess. Does Greystone have a general Salamis? A That might be a Greystone subsidiary Q So that's testimony that you never
But one of your other fax machines in
had a company by that name, correct? A Yes. I don't believe I have ever had
the Prince Group then uses the label Terrorism Research? A
or been part of a company called the Falcoln Group. Q Have you had a company called
that nobody changed the little banner that's stuck in the fax machine. Q So there's -- but there's no ongoing
but I'm not sure. Q subsidiaries? A I think Salamis is where they owned Can you name for me all the Greystone
operations of any sort? A Q None. Tell me about the offices in McLean.
You still have offices there? A Q A Q A No. You've let go of all that space? Yes. When did you do that? The Arlington office shifted in July,
a couple of the aircraft. Q Can you name for me all of the
Greystone subsidiaries? A I don't know that it has any others.
It might but I don't know. Q Who would know the answer to that,
Somebody that wanted to sub-let the space. Q Do you have any relationship with a
general counsel of Xe? A Since they all roll up under the same
Page 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Black? A Q Sometimes. Would you consider those two men as company called Blackburn Technologies? A Q A works there. Q What about Constellation Consulting? None. Is that run by Cofer Black? I don't think he runs it. I think he
Page 88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 No. That's run by Ric Prado? I don't know. Could be. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 No. What about the Falcoln group? I never heard of that. You never had a company by the name 20 21 22 23 24 25 officer? A I estimate a year-and-a-half ago. officer? A Well, he does contracts and he was you? A Q A Q Five years. That's an estimate. registration for compliance matters, they utilise that compliance department. do. I think -- well, he uses outside lawyers for some stuff, and some stuff he pays a fee to Xe. Q A Who runs the compliance department? Well, I think Fred Roitz is listed as I think. I'm not So, yes, I think they
Do you have any relationship with Constellation Consulting? A Q A Q A Q
the chief compliance officer. sure.
And Karen Jones is probably the senior most
focused on compliance. Q A Q Fred Roitz office is where? Moyock. And how long has Mr Roitz worked for
Do you keep in touch with Ric Prado? I talk to him, yes, once in a while. And you keep in touch with Cofer
How did you meet him? I don't know. And he's your chief compliance
part of the management team you talked about previously? A Q A Q
made chief compliance officer. Q When was he made chief compliance
of Falcoln Group? A That name is news to me.
Pages 85 - 88

Page 89 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 That's a guestimate. Q And you picked him to be your chief Page 91 1 2 3 That was a -- I think that was 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time. finance department so.... Q Is she going to be the most
compliance officer? A Yes.
knowledgeable person about the company's financial dealings in the early days of the company? A Q A I don't know. Who else would it be? Whoever else took her place. I'm
a joint decision between outside counsels, the outside compliance counsels and Gary and -- yes, I think that's it. Q I'm not sure.
Mr Prince, I want to make sure I'm
trying to think who that was. current CFO. Q
Mike Taylor is the
understanding your answer. You and Gary Jackson and outside lawyers made the decision to select of Fred Roitz as the chief compliance officer? A I think -- well, there is a, as part
But for the period preceding Mike
Taylor coming on as the CFO, would you say that Carol Confers was the most knowledgeable person about the money flows amongst all your various companies? A Q companies? Probably so. Could be.
of the wranglings with the DDTC there was an export compliance committee and they wanted one person in the company that could be the focal point, so they certainly weighed into that. Q So this was something that you did
Mr Prince, how did you run your Did you get a daily report of any sort
from your management team? A It depends what I was doing at the But I would
at government request? A As part of the ongoing proceedings
If I was travelling or not.
with them, yes. Q Prior to that, had you had anyone in
generally be in touch with somebody from the organisation once a day during the work week. Q Did it tend to be Gary Jackson for
charge of compliance? A I think that responsibility fell with
the most part that briefed you on the goings on of your companies?
the general counsel.
Page 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sir? A Q A 1998 or 9. Q A Q A Q A To the present? No. No, she retired a few years ago. She was the controller? For all your companies? Well, she was with us from -- boy, Jones? A Q I think so, yes. What did Carol Confers do for you, Q And when you say you think that it
Page 92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q A Q Al-Zalama? A I'm not sure what that is. There's nobody else? I don't think so, no. What about a company called A Gary or Bill or one of the training
fell to general counsel, I just want to be clear. You're the person that makes the decisions on how management is structured, right? A That would have been one of my, There was I'm not sure
people or the programme manager if I had a specific programme, if I had a question, or Fred or Mike. Q A Q Fred Roitz, Mike Taylor? Yes. So Fred Roitz, Mike Taylor, Gary
I guess, final decisions, yes.
a compliance person before Karen. what that person's name was. Q A Q
Jackson or Bill Mathews would regularly brief you and then, as needed, you would pull in other people? A It might not be all of them every
Was Karen's name previously Schiltz? I don't know. But you've always known her as Karen
day, but I used to call the people that would call more often. Q Other than those four men, is there
anyone else you'd put in that category as to someone who would brief you very frequently? MR BEIZER: "very frequently". (To the witness) THE WITNESS: You can answer. Objection. Vague on
No, leave it at that.
When did she retire? I don't know. Who took her place? As the company grew we built a bigger
Pages 89 - 92

Page 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 owned? A Yes. I don't know if they do yet or Q You're not familiar with that as an Page 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A Q No. And who would you direct me to for 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answer. THE WITNESS: Again, I don't think it approval before -- before a new company was registered? A Q No. Who had the -- who had the ability to
offshore company that you own? A No. It might have been something
that Greystone was trying to do as a locally-owned or a local Iraqi company. Q So this was a company that Greystone
start new companies in your name? A Well, it was -MR BEIZER: characterisation. (To the witness) Again, you can Objection to the
not, but now that you say the name it brings it back to memory. Q And you directed me to Chris Burgess
for the names of all the Greystone subsidiaries, correct? today? You don't know those as you sit here
started in my name if it's a company that's starting a subsidiary company. BY MS BURKE: Q But it's something that's
wholly-owned by you, right, Mr Prince? A that I own. Q That you own, okay. And I'm trying Well, it's wholly-owned by a company
the names of all the companies you've had ownership in over the past ten years? knowledgeable about that? A I'd say Christian Bonat would have Who's the most
to get at whether or not people had to get your permission to create new corporate forms, and I take it the answer is, no, they didn't have to get your permission? A Well, they would certainly get my
that list complete. Q a non-lawyer? A Q Mr Prince, can you direct me to I prefer not to depose lawyers. No. He's the only one in the company that
permission if they needed to go buy helicopters or
Page 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 has that knowledge? A Q knowledge? A Q I think so. And you yourself don't have that You don't know what companies you own? I don't have a list, no. And you can't remember without a list
Page 96 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I mean, you know, if owning 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 MR BEIZER: Objection to the 16 17 You can answer. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Were you the person that had to give 25 assets, so I don't believe they would go to these entities -- [difficult to hear as someone coughed] -- unless they had direction. Q So you gave permission for the
creation of every company that was formed that you wholly-owned? A I can't say that. I don't know that
everything you own? A No.
I gave permission for every company that was ever formed. Q But you never delegated to somebody
a company is paying the hundred dollar registration fee and setting it up, yes, I don't know how many of those companies are there, no. So talk to
else the authority to start up new companies? A Q A Q I don't recall. I don't know.
someone that has a list and I'd say Christian Bonat would probably have that list. Q companies? Why did you need all these shell
You don't know one way or the other? I don't. How many federal firearms licenses
are in the name of the companies? A Q A Q licenses? A Q licenses? A I believe the company did. I don't think I ever had one. You never had any federal firearms I've no idea. How many are in your name? I don't think any. You have no more federal firearm
characterisation. (To the witness) THE WITNESS:
At various points in
the business, if you own an asset it makes sense to own that business with an individual company, or own that asset. whatever. BY MS BURKE: Q An aeroplane, a helicopter,
Pages 93 - 96

Page 97 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A But I'm talking about you? But since I own the company -Page 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 He's only 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q armourer? A Q Yes, correct. Who are the armourers now at the team That's someone other than your 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 again. THE WITNESS: I don't remember if Objection. (To the witness) You can answer other. Q But whatever you did you don't You never Q What about weapons you took back up Those weren't
to your home in McLean, though? logged out, were they? A
I don't think that -- I don't recall if I ever had a license in my name. I'm not sure but that's...
Well, my personally-owned weapons
I remember I had to give fingerprints at some point early on, but I don't think the license was in my name. Q A Q A Who would know that for sure? Probably our ATF guy. Who's your ATF guy? I don't know his name.
were never part of the companies' inventory. Q But I'm talking about when you took You didn't log those
company weapons up to McLean. out, did you? A I don't know.
I don't know that
I ever took company weapons up. Q A Q Are you testifying you never did? I don't know that I did. Is that a, "No, I never did" or a,
been there nine months or so. Q A And when you call him your ATF guy? He's the guy that deals with all the
"No, I can't remember one way or the other"? A I don't remember one way or the
firearms licenses and numbers and inventory and all that.
remember ever logging them in, right?
had to fill out any kind of log right when you were in the facility? MR BEIZER: Asked and answered.
house in Moyock? A Q You mean at the facility? You tell me. What are the names that
you -- there is a place where weapons are stored in Moyock, correct?
Page 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 weapons? A I might go down and go shooting with fired? A No, there's a few there, but I don't I don't remember their Bill. Q A Q What's his last name? I don't know. Have all the other armourers been A Q A Q The main armoury, yes. And that's called the main armoury? I think so, yes. And who are your armourers? Who are
Page 100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q Do you still go there to take out 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 located? A Q A Q A Q In Virginia. In Northern Virginia? Mmmm. I'm sorry, you to -Yes. Are the other two in Northern where? A Q In the McLean area and in Norfolk. And the other two, where are they I ever would have taken company weapons up north as I had my own firearms, so I don't remember going through any log-in or log-out procedures to do that. BY MS BURKE: Q A Q A Q How many homes do you own? That I own? Three.
the people that are in charge of that facility now? A The guy I know there now, his name is
Where are they located? How do you define a home? How many properties do you own that
you can reside in? A Four. One is completely unoccupied. Two are for
recognise their names. names.
Well, actually -- yes, four currently. sale. Q
The two that are for sale are located
my boys, but I generally take our own weapons. Q Now, in the past when you've gone and
taken weapons from that facility, you didn't log them in, correct? A Well, you know, if I go shooting with
the boys there's generally a training guy that comes, and it's logged out to them like any other training class would be.
Pages 97 - 100

Page 101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sale? A Q No. At present do you intend to continue Virginia for sale? A Q Not presently. Do you have plans to put them for Page 103
to come back to the United States? A Q Absolutely. How frequently do you intend to come
back to the United States? A Q Once a month. Every other month.
So are you planning to come back to
the US in September? A Q A Q No. In October? End of October. That's your next planned trip, is the
end of October? A Q Yes. And what is -- what about the How many
properties that you own abroad?
properties do you own outside of the United States, and I'm including "owned" meaning owned by your company as well? A Well, the company has a lease on some
Page 102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it. land on the northwest side of Kabul airport, but you can't build there. Q How about in the Green Zone? Do you
Page 104
still have the villa in the Green Zone? A Q Green Zone? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Years ago. And that was leased? Yes, you can't own it any more. Who did you lease it from? I don't know. Who would know? I don't know. You don't know who would know? Whoever the in-country management was No. When did you get rid of villa in the
would have been paying the rent. That's the other thing. Almost every
property there in Baghdad or in the Green Zone, it's disputed as to who the owner was. Q But the property that you were
renting, were you paying rent to the Iraqi government? A I don't know. I don't know who owned
Pages 101 - 104

Page 105 Page 107
Page 106 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had. A Well, even if you have cash in a
Page 108
bank, if you have any kind of working loan with them or a term loan or anything else like that, there's all kinds of over-watch from their loan officers as to where that money can go. Q And just so that I'm understanding.
There is certainly oversight on loan proceeds, but you're not saying that the bankers control your own personal assets, are you? A No, only if there's a personal
guarantee on something. Q On a what? There's a personal
guarantee on a loan? A Q On an asset, yes. When you began what is now called Xe
Services you had a substantial amount of your own money, correct? A What's substantial -MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: what's substantial? BY MS BURKE: Q Well, let me ask you how much you Objection. Vague.
How do you define
When you started -- what year did you start
Blackwater?
Pages 105 - 108

Page 109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 year? BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, you understand you're Page 111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 A No, I'm sorry. For the top, say, 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Was he making, like, half a million Was he making a million dollars a A Q A Q No. Was it greater than 75 thousand? Yes. Substantially greater? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. Vague.
still under oath? A Q Yes. Who did you decide the payment level
for in terms of salary? A Q State the question again? I take it you personally decided how
What's "substantially"?
much to pay the top executives? A Certainly for the present position
dollars a year? year?
Approximately how much money was the man
and then, in consultation with the President, for all the others. Q When you say all the others, all the
making when he worked for you at the end? A I would say his base estimate,
guestimate, in the 300, 350 range. Q What was the largest bonus you ever
way down to the lowest level employee in the company?
gave Mr Jackson? A I don't know but it was probably,
fifteen or so people. Q
That's an estimate.
base and bonus all up, probably right on a million dollars. Q A Q dollar bonus? A Q I don't know. I don't remember. Including the bonus? Base and bonus. So did you ever give him a million
And the President, meaning you decide
how much to pay Gary Jackson? A Q Yes. And then after Gary Jackson, Joe
Yorio took the position of President? A Q Yes. How much did you pay Gary Jackson per
You don't remember whether or not you
gave him a million dollars?
Page 110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11:22 a.m. BY MS BURKE: Q Do you recall the salary that at 11:21. (A short recess at 11:21 a.m.) (Resumed at 11:22 a.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record BY MS BURKE: Q A Just a range is fine? I don't remember the exact number but MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: Beginning when? Beginning with his Mr Jackson's beginning
Page 112
beginning with the company. with the company. THE WITNESS:
Oh.
it was probably, I would guestimate at 75 thousand a year. Q A Is what you began Mr Jackson at? Something like that. No, all out
with the bonus, a little over a hundred. MS BURKE: I'm sorry, we've got to
take just a brief break as the coffee is here. VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record
Mr Jackson was making yearly on his last year of employment with you?
Pages 109 - 112

Page 113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Moyock. Q A stuff, yes. Is there any paper now in McLean? Well, it's part of the document hold There is a bunch files that are kept. guaranteed bonus was a couple of hundred grand. I think. Q contract? A I'm not sure. What's the term of his employment How long? I don't know that it has an Page 115 1 2 3 4 5 6 Is the 7 8 9 No. It's an employment agreement, so 10 11 12 It 13 14 I'm 15 16 And records, such as Mr Yorio's 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 well. Q Mr Prince? What prompted you to do that, What prompted you to resign from Q And that's a change because you used
to be much more personally involved in running your businesses? A Q Correct. And that change coincided immediately
expiration date. Q But is it, like, for a year?
with Yorio coming on board or did it take a transition period? A Q No, I resigned as CEO. And the date that you resigned as CEO
contract term for a year and then it's renewed every year? A
you stopped actively managing the companies? A Q A Q A Yes, and I think that was in March. Of 2009? I think so. And you sent out a letter? Yes. I talked to the employees as
you have the comp and the insurances and the severance agreements and all those things. Q But it doesn't speak to term?
doesn't speak to length at all? A not sure. Q I don't know. I don't think so.
employment contract, had those been kept in McLean when you had offices there? A They'd probably have been kept in
actively managing your companies? A The -- between the thrashing we were
receiving in the press and from various regulators, I figured it was -- a lot of the attacks upon me were coming in at the company and vice versa, so I figured let outside professional management team run the business and I will look to do other
I think it's kept at one of those portable
Page 114 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 date? A No, that's all. Comp for the others rent-a-space places. Q Is there rent-a-space down in Is there a storage container
Page 116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 So right now you only personally set 23 24 25 things. Q And would you say there's been
Elizabeth as well?
a substantial change in the way the business is run as a result of your departure? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. Vague. I mean, You
with all of the documents? A I don't know if they're there or if I'm not sure where the
in the logistics warehouse. storage part would be. Q
I don't know.
it's a different market environment as well. know, there's the Iraq efforts for the United States are winding down significantly.
Is the logistics warehouse on the
Moyock grounds? A Q Yes. Now, you mentioned that you
Afghanistan
is, kind of, at a status quo, and there's -- you know, there's a lot of talk about cutting the defence budget and reducing the use of contractors so that, of course, that causes a company to be run differently. BY MS BURKE: Q Is there any increased focus on
personally were involved in setting compensation for Jackson, and then for fifteen others of the top -- approximately fifteen others of the top management, correct? A Q Yes. And does that remain true today, to
compliance now as compared to when you were in charge? A As part of the process improvements,
is done by Yorio, and his hasn't been changed or adjusted really within what was contracted when he hired on. Q
any company overgrows and the administrator gets smarter on the places where he'd made mistakes so... Q And would you characterise as the
Yorio's and then he handles everything else? A Yes.
places where you've made mistakes? A We focused too much on serving the
Pages 113 - 116

Page 117 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. BY MS BURKE: Q Was the record-keeping sloppy? MR BEIZER: Objection. Vague. customer. Q We ran very hard to serve their needs. So it didn't dot all the i's and Page 119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 behalf? A Q A They did. Who came to Moyock? Steve Feinberg, and I think his DO Capital? A Q Mmmm. Yes. Q Cerberus. And Cerberus is Cerberus
cross all the t's? A You know, we had men in danger and
And what year was Cerberus Capital
people doing a mission, and you do all you can to support them, to keep people alive. Q But I assume that's the philosophy of
considering buying your companies? A Q I think that was in '08. And did you provide them documents?
the company, even under Mr Yorio, right? A You know, as I -- the country was at
Did you and others under your direction provide them documents to conduct due diligence? A They -- they had not really got to
war and we ran the business to serve the customer. I would say now I would see the business as being run to fulfill just the line verse any letter of the contract and the customer doesn't get any more. Q So in the past you went over and
the point of full due diligence. Q diligence? A Probably just -- I think there was a That's all Did they do any preliminary due
above for the customer? A I'd say that was a bit of an
1-page business summary financials. very just top line stuff. Q
approach, yes, we ran very hard to serve them. Q Were the companies run in a way that
Did anyone visit Moyock on their
relegated record-keeping to a lower status? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. No. Vague.
I don't know about
guy was George Kolitagez, and I don't know any of the other guys. Q A But others came with him? I would presume so.
Page 118 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 foundation. MS BURKE: That's fine. I would just was sloppy. THE WITNESS: No. Running an aviation business is all about records, and keeping 60-some aircraft moving and flying and maintained that's all about record-keeping. BY MS BURKE: Q business? What about the WPPS part of the Were all those records required by the I don't know that it
Page 120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Objection. No 16 17 18 19 20 21 Now, you had placed the companies for 22 23 24 Cerberus. 25 foundation. THE WITNESS: I would suspect it was Q A Q A Q A Was it a whole team of people? A couple of people, yes. How long did they stay in Moyock? I don't know. Were you there? I was there for part of it. I don't
know if they stayed longer than me or not. Q How long were you there on that
particular occasion? A Q A day. And why did the deal fall apart? MR BEIZER: Objection. No
customer kept properly as well? MR BEIZER: Objection. If you know.
(To the witness) THE WITNESS: MS BURKE: that objection, counsel? MR BEIZER:
I don't know.
What was the grounds for
because, you know, they also owned a big stake in -- well, they own Chrysler and they own Mobis and they own GMAC, all of which were sailing into stormy waters because of the financial crisis of '08. BY MS BURKE: Q Is that what they told you as the
ask you not to coach the witness on the record, sir. BY MS BURKE: Q
reason why they didn't want to buy your companies? A Yes, they were worried about taking
sale previously, and Cerebus(sic) was looking into buying it? A
on another deal while they had to, you know, spend I guess what turned out to be a year-and-a-half
Pages 117 - 120

Page 121 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you? BY MS BURKE: Q diligence? A Q No. Who handled the due diligence for Were you there for any of the due to you? A Q A No. What does AAR stand for? I don't know but it's a publicly trying to negotiate that process. Q WoodDale? A Q A Q AAR. To AAR? Yes. Does the term WoodDale mean anything Now, you did sell Presidential to Page 123 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. Compound. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 companies? A Q And Greystone. Will you have any companies remaining
in the security business if you sell those two? A Q No. So you're trying to sell all your
security businesses? A I would say all the US government
contracting businesses. Q Do you have companies that are
contracting with foreign governments? A Q governments? A Q A Q Of course the company has. Pardon? Of course the company has. When you say "of course the company No. Have you done any work for foreign
traded aviation company in Illinois. Q And I take it they did due diligence
before they bought Presidential? A Q how long? Yes. How many people were at Moyock for
has", which company? MR BEIZER: I'm going to instruct the
I have no idea.
witness not to answer this again, unless there's a proffer as to how this could lead to admissible evidence in a False Claims Act case on the WPPS contract and Katrina. MS BURKE: Source of revenue for his
Page 122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answered. THE WITNESS: No, I'm trying to sell entail. Q Now, you are currently trying to sell A Primarily Mike Taylor, and Steve
Page 124 1 2 3 4 The sale price was 200 or 205. Million? Yes. Do you recall which one it was? I don't remember. It had to do with 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Objection. Asked and 20 21 22 23 24 And Greystone? 25 No. do with... MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: I deal with this part. Sorry. THE WITNESS: What does that have to
Phillips was the CFO of Presidential Airways. Q Presidential? A Q A Q A How much money did you get for
MR BEIZER: I'm going to instruct the witness not to answer. BY MS BURKE: Q governments? A Q No. You've never been paid at all for any Do you receive any money from foreign
what the Escrows were at the closing so... Q Did you transfer the liabilities
along with the assets of the company? A Q It was a stock sale. Meaning that you transferred the
work you've done for foreign governments? A Well -MR BEIZER: Again -- excuse me.
liabilities along with the assets of the company? A Yes, that's what a stock sale would
Again, I'm going to instruct the witness not to answer on this line of questioning. The same reason. MS BURKE: He's provided an answer of
all your businesses? MR BEIZER:
"no", so that's going to stand as his testimony unless he clarifies. THE WITNESS: Do I? Have I received?
The company receives payment, the company
the company known as Xe Services. BY MS BURKE: Q
that's for sale. BY MS BURKE: Q Right. Let me make sure I'm
Pages 121 - 124

Page 125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 counsel. MR BEIZER: I'm going to instruct the understanding your testimony, Mr Prince. The company that's for sale, Xe Services and Greystone, that company has received payments from foreign governments, right? A Q Yes. Which foreign governments? MR BEIZER: Again, I'm going to Page 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 So you're taking your counsel's 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 I -MR BEIZER: Again, I -- excuse me. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A B-a-p? Yes. And what is Gordie Bap doing for you? He's the investment banker going
through the sales process and doing it like any other corporate finance-type transaction. Q It may be, sir, that we play your
instruct the witness not to answer at this point. BY MS BURKE: Q
video, and not everybody on a jury is actually familiar with corporate transactions. And so,
although it may seem rudimentary to you, I just ask you, for these kind of questions, just give it in lay person's terms. Does he help you assess the value of -- does he help you figure out the sales price for the company? A Well, in a corporate finance-type
instruction on this issue? A Q Yes. So you're willing to testify that
you've received money from foreign governments but you're not willing to testify as to which foreign governments? A
transaction the investment banker would help prepare a sales memorandum, a book as it's called, and then there's, kind of, of a -- they go out and contact various strategic buyers or financial buyers. Those that have interest sign a The book gets sent to
(Counsel and the witness spoke at the same time) MS BURKE: Let the witness speak,
non-disclosure agreement. them.
They come back and go through a valuation And then they submit bids if they're And then they have to do a due
witness not to answer this question for the same reason.
process.
interested.
Page 126 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, when you're pointing at
Page 128 1 2 3 4 I'm abiding by my counsel's advice. And you realise that there's a risk 5 6 7 8 9 A Q Sure. The current sale efforts, you're 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 And BlackArch are the same guys 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 price. beware. BY MS BURKE: Q But is the due diligence done by the foundation. THE WITNESS: Caveat emptor. Buyer diligence process. And then you go through a
purchase agreement, and then you sell it or not. Q And the due diligence part of that
your counsel you're saying -- you need to say it verbally? A Q
process, that's designed to figure out whether there's any liabilities that aren't being disclosed? MR BEIZER: Objection. No
that you may have to come back in order to answer questions if the Judge does not agree with your counsel?
using BlackArch to assist you? A Q A Q Yes. Are you using BlackRock at all? That name is not familiar. You've never used that investment
buyer to try to protect themselves? A Q excuse me. companies? A I'm not sure of the exact status of Of course. And have you gotten any proposals -Have you gotten any bids on your
management company? A No.
that handled the Presidential sale. Q A Q A Q A And that's Tim Whitmire? That name is not familiar. What name is familiar to you, sir? Gordie Bap. Gordie? Bap.
the bids in receipt but that process is ongoing. Gordie calls me about once a week or so to give me an update. Q companies? A You don't really give an asking And what's the asking price for the
You don't -- you're kind of negotiating
Pages 125 - 128

Page 129 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 against yourself then. Q And the deal that you are hoping to Page 131 1 2 3 4 5 6 And both include transferring the 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Mike Taylor. Mike Taylor. And so Mike Taylor is
enter into, would you be transferring the liabilities as well as the assets? A on the table. Q A stock sale or asset sale are both
going to be the most knowledgeable on this issue? A Q I would say, yes. And Mike Taylor is privy to all your
personal financial assets? A No. No, he's privy to what the
liabilities as well as the assets? A An asset sale would entail that the
companies' are. Q And when you say "he's privy to what
buyer does not pick any of the liabilities. A stock sale does. Q And so you are contemplating selling
the companies' are", he has an understanding of all the revenue that's been generated by the companies? A Q He has a CFO and treasury role. But he does not have an ability to
-- you're at least considering selling the assets but keeping the liabilities for yourself? A Yes. That's up to what the buyers
gain information about your personal wealth? A Q No. Is your personal wealth a factor in
are interested in. Q But in terms of what deal you're
your confidence that you would have enough money to cover the liabilities were you to sell the assets without selling the liabilities? A Well, that's why people form
willing to engage in, you're willing to engage in a deal in which you would retain the liabilities but sell the assets? A You know, I can't speak to any more
companies, because it's a limited liability company then. Q But you understand, Mr Prince, that
detail as to what -- you know, what we're willing to do. They have to come back with what the final
offer is and the Escrows and all those things. Q And I'm not asking you to provide
in this lawsuit you're individually a defendant as well, correct?
Page 130 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 detail. What I'm asking is about your own personal
Page 132 1 2 Are you willing to sell the assets 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 I haven't, but I'd imagine the 19 20 21 22 23 A Q Yes. And who are -24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Is that correct? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: MR BEIZER: Objection. I'm no -Excuse me. Sorry. Objection. Vague. A Q I understand that. Has that been any type of writings
willingness.
given to you that portray the assets of the company being retained sufficient to cover all the liabilities? A Q No. So you've not done any report or any
and retain the liabilities for yourself? A Q I guess, yes. And once you have sold the companies,
what's your personal ability to pay for all the liabilities? A Have you analysed that issue? Well, certainly there is Escrows that
memo of any sort? A Q been done? A Q I don't know. So it could be the case then, I've not seen that analysis, no. So you don't know whether or not it's
were held in the Presidential sale to cover any of those funds, but I'm sure there's enough to cover. Q It's a slightly different question. When you say you're sure there's enough to cover, have you done an analysis of all of your potential liabilities and then the personal funds that you would have available were you to no longer own these companies? that analysis? A Have you undertaken
Mr Prince, that you could sell the companies, judgment could be issued against them and there would be no money to collect on? MR BEIZER: Objection.
finance guys have. Q When you say "the finance guys",
you're talking about your own finance people, correct?
Pages 129 - 132

Page 133 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 table? A right now. Q It's doing all right now but, if you No. No, the company is doing all BY MS BURKE: Q A proceedings. Go ahead. I'm no expert in those kind of I would imagine I'd have to do Page 135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 But you can foresee a circumstance 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Again vague. 20 21 22 Is that right, Mr Prince? You know, who can tell what the 23 24 25 Q When you say "the next few weeks",
have you been approached with bids? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. Vague.
We're in the -- I would
a bankruptcy law and I, fortunately, have not much familiarity with that. BY MS BURKE: Q
say we're in at least the third quarter of the game, of the basket ball game. BY MS BURKE: Q A With whom? If you characterise the sale process,
with the path that you're going on where bankruptcy could be an option for your companies? A I would say that that would be my
I'd say we're in the third quarter? Q A Q A agreement. Q A With whom? With the prospective buyers. Yes, who are the prospective buyers? I'm under a confidentiality I cannot disclose that. How many different buyers? Well, the books went out to probably
last consideration. Q But it's something that's on the
sell all the assets, you may not have enough money to pay all the liabilities, right? MR BEIZER: Calls for speculation. BY MS BURKE: Q A Objection.
20-plus prospective buyers. Q A Q A Yes, but how many are actually -Again --- in active discussions with you? This is all sealed under a
confidentiality agreement. Q record here. I know, but you need to put it on the
liabilities of a company would be?
Page 134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Pardon? Who can tell what the liabilities of
Page 136 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q It's not only part of the due 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q It may be your last choice but you're 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q You actually do. It's information MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: I'm going to -No, I don't.
a company could be? Q Yes, but it's something that's
routinely studied and analysed, and it doesn't appear that you've done that, right? A Well, it's certainly something for
that's likely to lead to the discovery of relevant evidence in this lawsuit so you have to provide it. Now, I understand your concern and, because this is something that could clearly impact a business, an ongoing business transaction, for this portion of the deposition we will agree and we will seal it beginning now, okay? under seal. MR BEIZER: I'm going to still So we'll put it
the prospective buyers, the owners of the assets, and that's all part of that due diligence process so...
diligence if they're going to be buying the liabilities too, right? A That would be up for you to talk to
instruct the witness not to answer based on the -I don't know what the effective of these confidentiality agreements are. THE WITNESS: MR BEIZER: And you know what? And I don't know whether
the buyers about. Q But you've already indicated you're
willing to enter a sale where you keep the liabilities, correct? A That would be my last choice.
that seal will cover it, Ms Burke, so I instruct the witness not to answer. MS BURKE: And you've made no effort,
I'd prefer to do a stock deal and sell the whole entity.
counsel, to look into this issue before today? MR BEIZER: witness not to answer. MS BURKE: But I'd like your I'm instructing the
willing to do it, right? A We'll see what things come out in the
next few weeks.
Pages 133 - 136

Page 137 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 advice. Q A Q You're following his instruction? Yes, I am. Okay. And is there more than one that question. counsel. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince? MR BEIZER: witness not to answer. Again, instruct the That's been asked and Who are the prospective buyers, representation for the record. Have you looked into this issue as to whether -- Mr Prince's obligations under these confidential agreements? that? MR BEIZER: I'm not going to answer Have you looked into Page 139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Mr Prince, I need to build the record So you're simply -I'm deferring to my counsel's wise 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 settlement? A Q They're long. Did you settle anything having to do
with Iraq or Afghanistan? A Q A Q It's globally. So it includes Iraq and Afghanistan? Yes. And it includes conduct that occurred
Proceed with your next question,
under the auspices of the WPPS contract? A Q You know, it regards export matters. When you say it regards export
matters, it's a settlement about smuggling weapons into Iraq? A I don't know that it would be called
answered and the same instruction. BY MS BURKE: Q properly. A
smuggling weapons. Q Does it have to do with importing
weapons into Iraq? A It has to do with the documentation
of weapons -- I recall, I think it's like this. There was US-made weapons legally purchased in the United States, shipped to Iraq for the use of Americans by US personnel on a government contract, and there was a glitch in the paperwork filing in the State Department. Q When you say a glitch in the
active participant in the discussions? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Same instruction. Same answer.
Page 138 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on that? A Q A Q company. Q A Q Who? Which one? BY MS BURKE: Q A Q I'm sorry, you have to say? I'm deferring to my counsel's advice. Thank you. Okay.
Page 140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 I think that is -- I think that was 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 paperwork filing, you're paying because you did not properly document the flow of weaponry, correct? A There was a couple of shipments that
did not have the right paperwork. Q as a result? MR BEIZER: Objection. Objection. And you're paying 42 million dollars
And there's no reason -- none of that will be under seal. There's no reason to seal any
of that separately from whatever we do with the whole transcript. I understand from the New York Times that you are in discussions of a potential settlement with the State Department for $42 million? A
Misleading and mischaracterising the testimony. THE WITNESS: There's a list of their
administrative export violations that added up to that number. BY MS BURKE: Q When you say added up to that number,
signed in the last couple of weeks. Q A Who signed it? One of the senior executives of the
how much was each violation worth? A I don't know. I don't know how they
assessed each violation. Q Is there a list attached to the
settlement that says the location of each of the violations? A Q A Q Mr Prince? MR BEIZER: Objection. Vague. I think so. Who would know that for sure? The State Department. Did you read the whole thing,
I think Vick Esposito did. Why was it Esposito doing the signing What was his title or function for you? He's the chief operating officer. And this was for which companies? Everything. What were the terms of the
Pages 137 - 140

Page 141 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q A Q A long time ago meaning? More than a year-and-a-half ago. And who at the State Department was -MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. Vague. BY MS BURKE: Q document? A Q A Not the whole document. What parts did you read? I read the drafts of it, probably Did you read the whole settlement THE WITNESS: I read -Page 143 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 It 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I'm sure there's a parcel of lawyers
on the people involved as well but... Q A Q But those are who you talked to? Yes. Did anyone analyse whether the
settlement touched on matters that had been alleged in the false claims lawsuit that brings us here today? MR BEIZER: repeat that question? BY MS BURKE: Q Did anyone analyse whether the I'm sorry, could you
a few months ago. Q When did you begin the discussions
with the State Department to resolve these issues? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. I don't know.
settlement touched on matters that had been alleged in the False Claims Act lawsuit that brings us here today? A Q A Q I don't know. You didn't? I don't know. I didn't, yes.
A long time ago.
Mr Prince, do you know the status of Has that one
negotiated on the State Department's side? A I don't know. Someone from the DDTC,
the Waggoner sexual harassment case? been resolved? A talking about. Q Okay. No.
Directorate of Defence Trade Controls. Q A And who was your negotiators? I would say our -- the lead counsel
I have not idea what you're
Are you aware that a woman,
was Gavin Trip McIntosh.
Heather Wagner, sued the companies?
Page 142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I think. Q Denver. Q A Q A Do you know the name of the firm? I don't. Too many lawyers? Holland & Hart is a guestimate. I'm not sure on that one. In the course of the settlement of Q A What firm is he with? They're out of Colorado. Out of
Page 144 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A Q Probably Fred Roitz or Karen Jones. On your side, were Fred Roitz -- on 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 screen? A Q litigation? No. What about the Presidential Airlines' Now, that's litigation that was on A Q No. That's not one that's on your radar
your radar screen? A Q A Q public record? A Q No, that's sealed. And how about the wrongful death Those are still Settled. When did that settle? Some months before the sale. Is the settlement amount on the
these export violations, did you and your companies provide documents to the government? A Q Certainly. And who is the most knowledgeable
that's still in your employ about what was provided to the government? please. And I don't want a lawyer,
cases going on in North Carolina? going on, correct? A Q I think so, yes.
And the case involving the men who
your side, who was the most closely associated with this settlement negotiation, other than the lawyers? Who were the business people that were
were killed in Falluja, the Nordan case, what's the status of that case, sir? A That was sent to arbitration years
involved in it? A Well, certainly Joe Yorio, Vick
ago by the Federal Judge and the plaintiffs never showed up, so it's, kind of -- I think it's just, kind of, withering on the line. Q That's interesting.
Esposito, Fred Roitz, Karen Jones. Q Anybody else?
Pages 141 - 144

Page 145 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Theuer? A Q A Who? James Theuer, T-h-e-u-e-r. Did we sue a lawyer? name. Q A Q A his name. Q Did you sue a lawyer named James Did you have one? We did. You just can't remember his name? Yes. I can picture his face but not Do you have insurance coverage that would cover any recovery in the current lawsuit? A I don't know. I don't know what the Page 147 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yes. fuse? A Q Nisour Square. A I think, as part of the ongoing deal, Who's that? He's one of the shooters in the A No, he wasn't fired. The legal focus
was shifting from having someone at Prince Group run it all, to letting it be managed closer to the business, the Xe or Blackwater business, and let their legal department run it. Q And you had brought Schmitz in to
insurance would cover. Q You haven't asked anyone to undertake
an insurance analysis? A Q A Q I'm sure our risk manager has. Who is your current risk manager? Robert Poole. How long has he been your risk
handle to Falluja and the Presidential lawsuits? A That's, kind of, what I'd heard over
the legal issues, yes. Q Now, did you pay Donald Balls' legal
manager, Mr Prince? A Q A Probably a year-and-a-half. Who was the risk manager before that? I don't know. Can't think of his
I think we did provide legal defence for all
the guys. Q Did you provide the legal defence for
Jeremy Ridgeway? MR BEIZER: Objection. I'm going to
ask where is this going, for a proffer as to how payment of legal fees in an unrelated case has anything to do with the case that's at issue here, the Civil False Claims Act filed by the -MS BURKE: Rick, it's not an
Page 146 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 employ? A Q A Q He went on to do other things. Did you fire him? We had a mutually-agreed departure. Did you fire him? BY MS BURKE: Q Have you requested indemnification Q A Yes. I don't know. MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: What's the name again? Theuer, T-h-e-u-e-r.
Page 148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 I mean, 17 18 19 Q Now, why did Joe Schmitz leave your 20 21 22 23 24 25 not to answer. MS BURKE: But we know on the record Rick. MR BEIZER: I'm going to instruct him unrelated case. The False Claims Act talks about
providing worthless services and use of excessive force, and Nisour is but one example of that, so there's a linkage here. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince -MR BEIZER: I'm going to instruct the
from the US government on any of the lawsuits that have been brought against you and your companies? A There might have been that in the
witness not to answer to the extent as to whether or not the company is paying legal fees for these people. MS BURKE: He's already answered,
Presidential Airways' case, but I'm not sure. That's something that was discussed at one point. Q But you don't know whether a request
was made to the government? A Q I don't know. Who would know the answer to that?
A non-lawyer if possible, please, sir? A It's going to be a lawyer.
that he's paying legal fees for all of the men. I did a follow-up question as to whether he's paying the fees for Jeremy Ridgeway. MR BEIZER: him not to answer. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, did you pay And I'm going to instruct
you could also have asked that. Schmitz.
Probably Joe
Mr Ridgeway's legal fees? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Same instruction. I would say, in
Pages 145 - 148

Page 149 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for you? A Q I don't know. Are you paying legal fees for BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, did you employ Mr Ball, What date did that? A Q A I don't know. Who would know the answer to that? Probably the individual accusing the general, we paid the legal fees for the accused. I'm not sure which individuals we did. BY MS BURKE: Q Were there any that you excluded from Page 151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 I defer to my counsel. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 defendant. MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: I understand. And the relationship Mr Jackson's legal fees could lead to admissible evidence in this False Claims Act case. MS BURKE: Rick, you understand that
Mr Jackson is one of the people accused of being engaged in the fraud that's at issue in this case. He's likely to be called as a witness here. Clearly we are entitled to explore bias. MR BEIZER: I understand that
Nisour Square shooters. Q Did you pay any compensation other
Mr Jackson is likely to be called as a witness here. MS BURKE: If not named as a
than legal fees during the pendency of the proceedings? Did you keep the men in your employ? MR BEIZER: witness not to answer. THE WITNESS: Again, I instruct the
between the two men and the financial relationship between the two men is clearly relevant. MR BEIZER: Let me consider that one. Maybe we can --
Mr Hart, Mr Liberty and Mr Slatten? you stop their employment? A Q I don't know.
If you can, can you move on? MS BURKE:
Well, I've got a whole
sequence with the others who are in similar situations, so I'd ask that you consider it. And I mean, you know, obviously none of us -- well, at least speaking for myself -don't want to repeat the trip so, to the extent that we can get the testimony --
Do you know whether they still work
Mr Cannon and Mr Drotleff?
Page 150 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fees? MR BEIZER: witness not to answer. MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: On the grounds? The same grounds, unless Again, instruct the are? A Q I don't know. Are you paying Gary Jackson's legal not? A Q A Q No. Do you recognise those names, sir? Those names are not as familiar. So you don't know who those two men BY MS BURKE: Q You don't know whether you are or MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Same instruction. I don't know.
Page 152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 How about any case, Rick? 21 22 I'm going to instruct the 23 24 25 MR BEIZER: Well, again, why don't
you give me the names, let me think about it, and then I'll come back? But right now, though, I'm
hard pressed to see whether paying legal fees for Mr Jackson or anybody else has anything to do with whether or not the company, knowingly, falsified the document. MS BURKE: But discovery is broader
than that, and I have to ask you to make -- you know, to make the call here, sir, because this is a very straightforward matter. Mr Prince and his colleagues are accused of engaging in fraudulent activity. Obviously the relationship between Mr Prince and the other persons accused of fraud is of import to the case. Whether or not there's a financial money
flow from Mr Prince to those other people is clearly relevant, and I'm very confident that the court will see it that way. And, you know, certainly you are free to fight about relevance and keep it out of the record later if need be, but at this juncture I really think you've stepped beyond the line here, sir. MR BEIZER: Perhaps so. That is why
you can proffer as to how payment of Gary Jackson's legal fees, presumably in connection with the expert control case -MS BURKE: He's his top management. MR BEIZER:
witness not to answer as to whether or not, unless you can proffer as to how payment of
Pages 149 - 152

Page 153 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a break? MS BURKE: Take a break, sure. Going off the record I say if you give me some time to think about it and -MS BURKE: Well let's go off the Page 155 1 2 3 4 5 MR BEIZER: Can you tell me who the 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Mr Prince, you understand you're 24 25 Q And are you currently paying
Mr Jackson any money other than covering his legal fees? A The senior executives had employment
record and give you the time you need to think it through.
agreements with a severance provision so... Q A Q A So you're paying him severance? There is a severance, yes. How long will you be paying him? I'm not sure what the terms of it
other people are so we can do it all at once? MS BURKE: Gary Jackson, Ana Bundy,
Andrew Howell, Bill Mathews, and Ron Slezak. MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: The last name, I'm sorry? Slezak.
were but it was in lieu of any stock options or founder equity or anything else. They had, kind
Slezak. Okay, can we take
of, an ongoing severance deal instead. Q So Mr Jackson has no ownership
interest, correct? A Q None. And you retained all the ownership of
VIDEOGRAPHER:
at 4 minutes past 12 p.m., as indicated on the video screen. (A short recess at 12:04 p.m.) (Resumed at 12:08 p.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: 8 minutes past 12 p.m. BY MS BURKE: Q Back on the record at
all the companies for yourself? A Q Correct. And now Ms Ana Bundy, is she also
receiving payments under the severance agreement? Under her severance agreement? A Q that question? A Mike Taylor. I don't know. Who would you direct me to to answer
still under oath?
Page 154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fees? A Yes, I think so. fees? A Q Yes. And are you paying Mr Slezak's legal fees? A Q A Q A I think so. I'm not sure. fees? A Q Xe Services? A Q Xe Services, yes. And are you paying Ana Bundy's legal The company is. And when you say the company, meaning A Q Yes, I do. Are you paying Mr Jackson's legal
Page 156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Are 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And what about Mr Howell? Is he
receiving payments? A I think so. I'm not sure. You
should ask Mike Taylor. Q How about Mr Mathews? Is it the same
for Mr Mathews? A Q Yes, I think so. And how about Mr Slezak? He was not
an executive, correct? A Q executive? A No, he was not an executive. I'm not I'm not sure. You're not sure whether he was an
But you're sure of Mr Jackson's? Yes. But you're not sure of Ms Bundy's? He has thanked me for paying those I know we are. I would presume we
sure if he has any kind of an employment agreement. Q And so you're not sure whether or not
legal services.
are for Ana Bundy as well. Q And what about for Mr Howell?
you're continuing to pay Mr Slezak? A Q Correct. And Mr Taylor would be the one to
you paying Mr Howell's legal fees? A Q Yes. And are you paying Mr Mathews' legal
answer that question? A Q Yes. Do you know whether -- did you
personally negotiate the agreement with Mr Jackson? A It was something put in place for
a number of the senior executives, so it was a, kind, of a blanket employment agreement so...
Pages 153 - 156

Page 157 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 timing. Q What prompted that, Mr Prince? What Gary. Q But were you the guy that came up Page 159 1 2 It wasn't just 3 4 5 6 7 8 I guess something like that, sure. And when did that discussion occur? Years ago. When you say years ago, did it 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 I'm not sure. I don't know the exact 17 18 19 20 21 It 22 23 24 25 answered. BY MS BURKE: Q year now? A Q A Q I'm not sure what the number is. Do you trust Gary Jackson? I do. And you continue to have full How much are you paying him every out into the future you're going to be paying him? A I don't know. MR BEIZER: Objection. Asked and
with what it should be? A It wasn't just me.
It was a few of us, but I'm not sure who was
present in the room at the time. Q So there was some type of meeting or
collective discussion about "Well, what's a fair agreement?" A Q A Q
confidence in him to date? A I never -- he's never done anything
pre-date -- did it pre-date the Falluja incident? A Q shooting? A No, not back that far. Did it pre-date the Nisour Square
that I've seen illicit or against me or against the interests of the company or the customers that we serve. Q And what about Ana Bundy? Do you
trust Ana Bundy? A Again, I know of nothing that she did
prompted you to sit around with your top management team and talk about severance? A Well, it wasn't just severance. It was -- because we Do we do actual
against me or the company or the customers. I didn't know her as well. It's not someone
I talked to very often at all so... Q So you don't have the same personal
was employment agreement.
also discussed private equity. equity?
connection on which to base your trust? A Correct.
Phantom equity? Employment agreement with
Page 158 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ongoing payments? There was a lot of standard
Page 160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q And were you the moving force behind 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 I don't know. The company was -21 22 23 24 Q For Mr Jackson, do you recall how far 25 well. Q frequently? A Q Correct. Did you ever take any steps to And you spoke to him the most Q What about Andy Howell? Do you have
company executive compensation kind of discussions. Q Did you get any kind of outside
trust in Andy Howell? A I do. Again, he hasn't done, that
consultant help on, you know, executive comp? A Yes. I think there was a couple of,
I've seen, against me or the company or against the US government. Q And do you have a personal
you know, lawyers that did executive comp, and those kind of guys that were talked to in that process.
relationship with Mr Howell akin to that with Mr Jackson? A Q No, not like it was with Gary. Would you say Gary was your close --
this or was your executive team the moving force behind having these discussions? A I don't know. I'd say that was a
was the executive most close to you? A Q A He was the President of the company. And you -That's how the org chart looks as
shared -- shared impetus. Q Everyone agreed that compensation
needed to be addressed? A Well, with any leadership team or
management team, compensation is always one of those issues that has to be addressed, sure. Q made, right? A But some sort of change needed to be
investigate Mr Jackson's conduct in any way? A To my knowledge, there was no
it's just one of those things we had never put in place, so it was one of those things it was time to do.
allegations brought against him in the hot line or anything else like that. Q So is that a, no, you never took any
steps to investigate him at all?
Pages 157 - 160

Page 161 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A like that. Q And when you say "allegations on the No, I don't remember doing anything Page 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you? A Interacts with policy makers, members Q When you say you didn't renew the You mean his contract?
contract, which contract? A Q Yes.
hot line", where are the hot line allegations maintained? A Where are those records maintained? Well, I think when Joe Schmitz was He used to
And who else have you used for
government relations work, other than Paul Behrends and Crowell & Moring? A A couple of other firms. I can't
there they would come into his office.
be the Pentagon Inspector General, so he's used to the hot line stuff. And now I believe there is
remember their names because I didn't have much interaction with them. Q Are you using Stu Eizenstat over at
a -- I don't know how the hot line comes in now, but there's some mechanism that does other services for hot lines for companies. Q Mr Prince, did any of your other
Covington & Burling? A That's who's doing it now, yes.
I've never met him. Q A Q What is he doing for you? Government relations. What does that mean? Do lobbying for
executives or persons outside the company advise you to stop trusting Mr Jackson so much? A Q No. No-one has ever given you advice that
perhaps you're overly relying on Mr Jackson? A I don't recall doing that. I don't
of congress, their staffs, arranging meetings, answering questions, clarifying reality. Q Now Senator Frist was a frequent
recall receiving that kind of information. Q Now, you currently use Mark Corallo,
Media Strategies, as your public relations guy? A We used him for a while. That
visitor down at Moyock? A Q A I think he visited once. Just once? Twice max. Once I'm sure of.
contract with him has lapsed, so I guess there's no official media spokesman or paid outside service.
Page 162 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Mr Corallo? A Q No. Did you use Paul Behrends of the Do you recall how much you paid
Page 164 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Did you use the Alexander Group when 15 16 I used Paul Behrends when he was at 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q several times? A His son interned for us for one And his son has been an intern there
summer, I believe. Q A Not two? He may have done one in Moyock, and
Alexander Group before Mr Corallo? A Q A Q A Q A He's with Crowell & Moring. Paul Behrends? Mmmm. He's with Crowell & Moring now? Yes, and has been for years. Did he have the Alexander Group? He worked there as a -- not as
then I think he worked or deployed for the company maybe to Afghanistan. where he went. Q Jonathan? A Q A Q Yes. Does Jonathan Frist work for you now? No. And when you say he deployed for the What's the son's name? Is that I'm not sure. I'm not sure
a partner, for a couple of years, and then he went to Crowell. Q he was there? A
company, when did you hire him? A Q A Q Afghanistan? A Q I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know. And what was he hired to do? I don't know. You say he was deployed to
the Alexander Group, yes. Q A Q A Q A What does Mr Behrends do for you? He was doing government relations. And is he still doing that for you? No. Did you fire him? No. We just didn't -- we didn't
Who should I go to for answers to
these questions? A I would say Vick Esposito probably.
renew the contract when it came to an end.
Pages 161 - 164

Page 165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q What role does Vick Esposito have Page 167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 And prior to that who had been your 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q But the transition from Danielle to 21 22 23 24 25 now? A She's -- you know, now that I'm here A Q A Q certain? A Q A Q A just curious. Q I'm sorry, Mr Prince. You actually Oh, he did. How much money did he take from you? I'm not sure. That audit is ongoing. Q When you say "it appears", you're not
vis-`-vis WPPS in Afghanistan? A Well, Vick's the chief operating
officer of the company. Q down in '09? A five months. Q And he has been since you stepped Did he get elevated at that time? He's been doing that for the last
Who is doing that audit? How is that remotely germane? I'm
chief operating officer? A Q A Q A Q Danielle. And she's now home with the new baby? Yes. So Victor took her job? Correct. Was that in anticipation of her
don't get to ask me the questions today. Who is doing the audit for you? Our accounting firm. Who is your outside accounting firm? BDO Seidman. And then who was your personal
assistant after Peter? A Q I guess it would be Stacy DeLook. And is she your personal assistant
taking time off to be with the baby? A She's -- I guess it's her business.
I don't know if she plans to come back to work or not.
and she's back in the United States, so she's helping with winding down things. Q A Is she your personal assistant now? I guess I'd say for now I don't have
Vick had to do with the baby, or the pregnancy? I mean, you didn't fire Danielle Morrison? A Q Oh, not at all. That's what I was trying to
a personal assistant.
Page 166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from me. understand, the sequence of events there. weren't job-sharing in any way? A Q I don't think so, no. And so that was -- but the transition And they
Page 168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A Q Peter Millian. How long was he your personal 17 18 19 From '97 or so until '09, spring. And did you fire him? Yes. Why did you fire him? It appears he was embezzling money 20 21 22 23 24 25 that? A Q Hendrichs? A Saigon Hendrich, I think. I'm not Probably so, yes. And how did you come to find -- is it Q Miss DeLook was also the company's
spokes person for a while right? A Q Yes. I want to ask you a bit about some
from Danielle to Vick was a voluntary one on Danielle's part? A Q Yes. Was it she that suggested that you
outside contractors. Have you used a gentleman named Sargon Hendrichs? A Yes. He's -- I think his firm did
put her husband in the spot? A Q No. Did you come to that on your own or
some construction for us in Afghanistan. Construction and camp support, catering. kind of stuff. Q A Q How much money did you give him? No idea. Would Mr Taylor know the answer to Logistics
did somebody suggest that to you? A Q I came to that decision on my own. Now, who -- who have been your
personal assistants since you began the security company?
assistant? A Q A Q A
sure how the last name is pronounced. Q A How did you find him? After we'd been on the ground in
Afghanistan for a while and there was other task orders and work that came up, and our guys over there, through local knowledge, saw that they were
Pages 165 - 168

Page 169 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 company? A Q I think it's ACCL. What about a man -- excuse me. What doing good work and they employed all Afghans, and so we tried them. Q Do you recall the name of this Page 171 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A He was a -- kind of a business 9 10 11 Q A Q To try to get you more business? Yes. And what sort of business was he 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 all. Q A Q Were you a member of that group? I think we were. I'm not sure. name. BY MS BURKE: Q Coonjohn? A Q No. What about the name Lawrence Peters? You've never heard the name Jeff MS BURKE: C-o-o-n-j-o-h-n. I've never heard that
THE WITNESS:
about a man named George Nadar? you?
What did he do for
Have you heard that name? A I think Lawrence Peters ran the
development consultant that we retained in Iraq for a while.
private security association of Iraq or something like that. Q A Did you work with him at all? I met him a couple of times. That's
trying to get you? A We were looking for work with the
Iraqi government. Q A Q And you got some, didn't you? Not really. You didn't get any work at all from
Who would you go to, who would you
direct me to for an accurate -A Q You'd ask Vick or Danielle. How about a man named Howard Lowry,
the Iraqi government? A There was nothing ever paid for by
L-o-w-r-y, Iraqi logistics? A him in Iraq. A guy I met once, and I think I met I met him at some events in the We never did any
the Iraqi government. Q Did you enter into any contract with
the Iraqi government?
States and then I met him twice.
Page 170 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 own. Q Coonjohn? MR BEIZER: spell that name? I'm sorry, could you Did you ever hear of the name Jeff that? A Q Ask Christian Bonat. He wasn't a business man at that time He's someone who's come A I don't think so. I'm not sure but I
Page 172 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 business. Q with him? A consummated. Q Now, did you take on sub-contracts He had some ideas. Never -- never Did you talk about doing business
don't think so. Q A Q You're not sure? I'm not sure. Who should I go to for an answer to
for other defence contractors? A Sure. I mean the Falluja work. The
with you, though, right? in later as the lawyer? A
work that resulted in our guys being ambushed and murdered by Iraqi insurgents in Falluja was a subcontract to -- it was some catering contractor. Q PWC, I think, out of Kuwait. And how about subbing to Olive Group?
No, but I presume, if there is a
contract that we had with the Iraqi government, it would probably be in one of those file. Q Do you recall somebody on the ground
Did you do any subcontracting to Olive Group? A I don't remember -MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Can you repeat? Let me just back up.
there that might be closer to the actual work done by George Nadar, other than Christian Bonat? A Q No, I'm not sure who that would be. There's nobody in your leadership
I'm not sure that the Falluja work was a sub to the Kuwaiti company, but it was a sub. BY MS BURKE: Q A Q A To Regency? Yes, Regency to -So PLEC to KBR? I don't think it was KBR, because it It was
team that worked with George Nadar at all? A No. George pretty much worked on his
was not necessarily a law encap programme.
Pages 169 - 172

Page 173 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 some. company. Q A for Olive. Q Halliburton? A Well, I think we might have done I'm guessing. There might have Olive Group. What about for Olive? I don't think we ever did any work something directly 80 second. the intricacies of that. Q A Okay. That being said, what was the next I don't understand Page 175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 And what about for KBR? Well Halliburton is KBR. They split. But, as far as you're 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 responsible for the contract bidding process on WPPS II? A I would say that would have been Fred I'm not sure
Roitz, Danielle, in the finance team. who that was then. Q Okay.
Did you have or do you have
any law enforcement personnel on your staff in any of your companies? A Q Of course. Active law enforcement or credential
law enforcement? A I don't know. Some of the
I think.
been some logistics moves from the Green Zone out to the airport in Baghdad. that work. Q A Q That's the extent of
instructors could certainly be reserve or auxiliary guys that do work for one of the Hampton Road's area departments. Q Were you able to access the Virginia
state police database on a routine basis? A Q I don't know. You don't know whether that was done
concerned, they are the same company? A There was only one of those entities
at your company? A Q I don't know. Do you know whether background checks
that we knew of in Iraq. Q A And how about Raytheon? I think as a sub under the war
were run on the men and women you were hiring? MR BEIZER: Can we narrow that
fighter contract. Q When you say as a sub under the war
question to your hiring in general, everybody?
Page 174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fighter contract, you sub to them? A Q contract? A Q A Q A Q They owned the war fighter contract. And is that a DoD contract? Yes. And that's in Afghanistan? It's global. That's global, okay. And what did Yes. And they had the war fighter
Page 176 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 WPPS II was an opening competitive 21 22 23 24 25 know. MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Mmmm. Okay. I don't know. I don't
It was in the weeds in that process.
BY MS BURKE: Q What topics would you consider as What did you
uniquely within your own expertise? actually handle yourself?
There a few different -- the reason I ask, sir, is because for a few different things you refer to it -- you know, it wasn't weeds, and I'm trying to get a sense as to how you managed your companies. I take it you picked your executive management, Gary Jackson and the others, right? A Q Yes. And Mr Jackson would brief you daily
you do for them as a sub? A Q The company did training support. This is when it was called Blackwater
or was it called Xe by then? A I think that entity that did that
training was Paravant. Q A Q contract? A So that was relatively recent? Within the last couple of years. Can you tell me how you got the WPPS
about what was going on in the company? A Q was going on? A Q A Q We communicated often. And you trust him? Yes. And you don't think he was Sometimes daily, sometimes not. But he kept you informed about what
bid, and we submitted, and we were down-selected, and then we bid some of the task quarters, and some of them we won and some of them we did not. Q Who in your executive team was most
Pages 173 - 176

Page 177 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 withholding any information from you? A Q None that I know of. And in any of those discussions that Page 179
you had with Mr Jackson, did it ever come up whether or not you were doing background checks on people? A I understand that was a -- some kind
of background check was part of the process for screening people. Q Did you have any sense as to how that How much it cost? Where
was getting accomplished? it was done?
Who was doing it?
Whether it was
being done properly? A Q No. I don't know. You never cared? Compound.
You never asked? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS:
Objection.
I didn't understand how
the process worked. BY MS BURKE: Q So you don't know, as you sit here
today, whether those background checks were ever done? A I certainly didn't do them myself and
there is thousands of them that would have been done so...
Page 178
Page 180 1
Pages 177 - 180

Page 181 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 projection screen, like most other board rooms in America do. Q Right. And that's it? There's no Page 183 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 they be? A Q A The management team of the company. So Mr Gary Jackson? I guess, yes. I'm not sure if he was did. Q When you say "they", who would the A Q A Q A I think there was one device found. And who had put it there? I don't know. Did you look into that? How do you prove -- how do you even I don't know.
room that has the ability to watch through satellite links of what's going on elsewhere? A Presidential Airways had a video
find what the source of it was? Q A that's it. Q A Did you -It was found.
screen in their ops room where they could track the aircraft that were flying around. a blue sky tracker. Something called
It was removed and
I dare say that would be the
closest to an in-ops room that the company had, and that was purely for flight crew scheduling and safety and whatever. Q A Q A Q A Q A Never used for anything else? No, not that I know of. And you would know, wouldn't you? I think so. Were telephone calls recorded? I don't think so. Not at all? Not by anyone that I knew of or had
Did you bring it to the government? It was in a public space, not in any
kind of skiff or classified facility. Q So the answer is, no, you didn't
bring it to the attention of the government? A No, I don't think so. Maybe they
given direction to. Q And, as you sit here today, are you
there when it was found so I'm not -- I don't remember the exact timing of it. Q But you were -- were you physically
aware that there were any audio recordings made of any of the business done on the premises of Moyock? A No, not that I know of.
in Moyock when it was found?
Page 182
Page 184 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 least. Q A Q And was it after the Nisour incident? I don't know. So it might have been pre or post? A Q A Q A Q A exact year. Q Do you remember whether it was after No. Where were you when it was found? Up in Northern Virginia. Who told you about it? I don't remember. What year was this? I just said I don't remember the
the Falluja incident? A It would have been post-2004 at
You just can't say with any -A Q found the bug? A Q I don't. And the company didn't do anything to Pre or post. Okay. And you don't remember who
try to figure out who had placed the bug? A I think they put some locks on the I think
doors to make it a more controlled access. there was remedial action taken.
Pages 181 - 184

Page 185 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q government? A Q I don't know. Did you think it might be a Who had suggested that? I don't know. Why didn't it get reported into the Page 187
government bug? A Q No idea. I know you have no idea, but did you
think that it might be a government bug? A Q No. At the time you didn't speculate that
perhaps you were being -A Q A No. -- surveilled by the US government? I would presume that the government
-- I mean, why would the government need to do that? The company wasn't under investigation for
anything criminal at that point. Q So this pre-dated any of the criminal
investigations? A Q I think so, yes. What's the date that you put as the When did
start of the criminal investigations? they become apparent to you?
Page 186
Page 188
Pages 185 - 188

Page 189 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 friend? A he used to be. Yes. Well, you know, not as close as A I don't believe -- yes. I don't Page 191 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q When you say with the scrutiny, 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 record? MS BURKE: Yes. This is the end of VIDEOGRAPHER: Do I go off the
believe he's ever done anything to me personally or to the company that would have indicated fraud or criminal activity. Q A Did you terminate him? He resigned from the company after he
VIDEOGRAPHER:
tape 2, volume 1 in the video deposition of Mr Erik Prince. Going off the record at 12:49
realised he couldn't, with the scrutiny that was on him, he couldn't continue to effect his role at the company so he opted to exercise his employment package.
p.m., as indicated on the video screen. (A short recess at 12:49 p.m.)
meaning the external scrutiny or your scrutiny? A Q A The external scrutiny. Do you consider him a close friend? Well, we were closer years ago, but
I haven't been in as close a touch lately. Q How about Gary Jackson? How often do
you talk to Gary Jackson now? A Q Probably once a month. Would you consider him still a close
I used to talk to him a lot, and
now, you know, he's gone a different path. Q What is Mr Jackson doing now?
Page 190
Page 192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 United States of America, ex rel. Melan Davis and Brad Davis : Civil Action No. : 1:08-CV-1244-TSE-TRJ : : Plaintiffs, : : vs. : : Erik Prince : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : Suite 800 : McLean, Virginia 22102 : : Blackwater Security Consulting: LLC : 850 Puddin Ridge Road : Moyock, North Carolina 27958 : : Xe Services LLC : (formerly EP Investments LLC : dba Blackwater Worldwide) : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : McLean, Virginia 22102 : U.S. Trading Center, Inc. : ("UTS") : (formerly Blackwater Lodge : and Training Center, Inc.) : 850 Puddin Ridge Road : Moyock, North Carolina 27958 : : Greystone Limited : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : Suite 800 : McLean, Virginia 22102 : and : 850 Puddin Ridge Road : Moyock, North Carolina 27958 : : The Prince Group LLC : 1650 Tysons Boulevard : Suite 800 : McLean, Virginia 22102 : : Defendants, : IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
Pages 189 - 192

Page 193 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION 9 OF 10 ERIK PRINCE 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Taken at: Beach Rotana Hotel 2nd Street Sector 1 96 Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates 45200 Volume II Pages 192 to 396 on Monday, August 23, 2010 commencing at 9:11 a.m. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 11 198 198 23 201 202 205 227 229 237 237 238 241 258 285 344 372 372 387 9 Exhibit No. Page Page 195 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Deponent Page I N D E X
Examination by Ms Burke 6 Cross-examination by Mr Beizer 391 Re-examination by Ms Burke 392 Re-cross-examination by Mr Beizer 393 -------------------------------------------------EXHIBIT INDEX Exhibits Marked During This Deposition:
Page 194 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 BY 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 VIDEOGRAPHER: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COURT REPORTER: Thelma Harries, MBIVR, ACR European Deposition Services 59 Chesson Road London W14 9QS Tel. 20 7385 0077 Fax. 20 7381 1756 e-mail: info@european-depositions.com DAVID ROSS European Deposition Services 59 Chesson Road London W14 9QS Tel. 20 7385 0077 Fax. 20 7381 1756 e-mail: info@european-depositions.com On behalf of the defendants and the witness: CROWELL & MORING LLP 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington DC 20004-2595 Tel. 202 624-2590 Fax. 202 628-5116 e-mail: rbeizer@cromwell.com BY : RICHARD L. BEIZER, ESQ : MS SUSAN L. BURKE, ESQ A P P E A R A N C E S: On behalf of the plaintiffs: BURKE PLLC 1000 Potomac Street Suite 150 Washington DC 20007 Tel. 202 386-9622 Fax. 202 445-1409 e-mail: sburke@burkepllc.com
Page 196 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 company? A Raven was, kind of, a separate (Resumed at 1:32 p.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning
of tape 3, volume 1 in the video deposition of Mr Erik Prince. We're on the record 1:34 p.m., as
indicated on the video screen. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, you understand you're
still under oath? A Q A Q Yes. Who did you build houses for? Say again? Who did you build houses for? Did
you provide houses to some of your top management? A Q I don't think so. Raven Construction, is that your
licensed construction entity that looked for work around. I think it built a church out in town and
they built some -- I think they did some work on a shopping or a strip mall, but I don't believe there was any work done gratus for any employees. Q Was there any work done by Raven for
any of the employees at all, whether gratus or not? A I think Gary had them work on his
Pages 193 - 196

Page 197 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answered. Raven? A Q A Q No. When did you shut Raven down? A few years ago. And, to the best of your knowledge, house but not -- it certainly wasn't gratus. bid it like any other bidder or builder would. I don't know of any others. Q They didn't work on anyone else's They And Page 199 1 2 3 4 5 I don't know. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Objection. Asked and 24 25 time. sir? THE WITNESS: MR BEIZER: Counsel? To the extent you can Davis. BY MS BURKE: Q Are you going to answer the question, not to answer to the extent the answer would reveal anything that he read at the direction of or in the presence of counsel and discussed with counsel. Otherwise he may answer. MS BURKE: And you know we have I think I'm entitled
house that was employed by you? A Q A Q Maybe they did.
a disagreement on this issue.
Who ran that company for you? I think that was Jim Diehart. And he's also the fellow that did
to know whether he's read these documents or not, without enquiring into the setting in which he read them. I'm simply asking "Have you read them?" MR BEIZER: a disagreement. 3? I appreciate that we have
manufacturing the grizzlies for you? A Well, he was the original guy that
Which one was 2 and which one was
did some of the target stuff, and then he stayed more on the construction side. Q A Q And does he still work for you? He still works for Xe, yes. And is there still a company called
Do you have an Exhibit 2? THE WITNESS: Exhibit 2 is Melan
answer the question without revealing whether or not you've discussed it, read it in the presence of counsel, you can answer the question. THE WITNESS: I've read it before one
the only executive that had their house worked on by Raven was Gary Jackson? MR BEIZER:
Page 198 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr Prince? MR BEIZER: I instruct the witness (To the witness) THE WITNESS: You can answer.
Page 200 1 2 3 4 5 And you think that he paid for that 6 7 Again, same objection. It was never anything 8 9 10 11 What does Jim do for you now? What's that? What does Jim Diehart do for you now? I think he does our overall facility 12 13 14 15 16 For Moyock? Yes. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 months? read them. MR BEIZER: Yes, but your question instruction. BY MS BURKE: Q And I don't want to know whether you When did you read them the BY MS BURKE: Q A Q So you have read those declarations? Yes. When did you read them? MR BEIZER: Again, the same
As far as I know.
I think they did some work on Gary's house but I'm not sure. BY MS BURKE: Q
but you're not sure? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: gratus or even discounted. BY MS BURKE: Q A Q A supervision. Q A
read them yesterday.
first time that was outside the presence of counsel? MR BEIZER: If, in fact, you've read
them in the presence of counsel. MS BURKE: He testified that he's
implied that he read them in the presence of counsel as well, and I was just clarifying that we're not saying whether he did or he didn't. BY MS BURKE: Q Did you read them when they were
(Exhibits 2 and 3 marked for identification) Q We have marked as Exhibit 2 the
declaration of Melan Davis and, as number 3, the declaration of Brad Davis. Have you read those before,
first sent to you, sir? A Q No. Did you read them in the last three
Pages 197 - 200

Page 201 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Perhaps. Did you read them before it became Page 203 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Mr Prince, I want you to take a look 10 11 12 13 (Witness 14 15 16 Go ahead, Mr Prince. What's that? Is that a publication that your 17 18 19 20 21 And I'm going to hand you 22 23 24 25 A Yes, and I don't know if someone --
anybody can print off a label and put it on a disc so... Q In terms of the jacket, did you
clear that you were going to continue as an individual defendant or after? A I guess I read it afterwards. MS BURKE: we'll mark as Exhibit 5. (Exhibit 5 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q I'm going to hand you what
prepare -- did your company prepare a disc that looked like this? A The marketing group could have easily
put out discs in jackets like that for trade shows or whatever. Q Do you know whether or not they did?
at this and let me know whether that is a publication that your company put out? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: reviewed the document) BY MS BURKE: Q A Q May I see it? Of course.
In the legal process we have to do what's called authentication. real. We have to make sure things are
And so I'm trying to authenticate this disc.
And I'm happy to show you the actual footage on the disc but, before we go to that trouble, you know, are you -- were you familiar with the CDs that your company was putting out for marketing? Like, could
you tell me whether or not it's real even if you saw it? A I couldn't tell you whether it was
company put up? A Yes. MS BURKE:
real because they put out a lot of them, but it's certainly possible. Q Okay. Who is going to be the person
what we will mark as Exhibit 6.
most knowledgeable about the marketing discs that Blackwater USA put together?
Page 202 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Exhibit 6 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, before I hand you
Page 204 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I don't remember. I don't think so. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q I'm going to hand you a disc and ask 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 interruption. I'm going to hand you four pages and ask if you recognise the content on this. I believe it was in a different format. 1:46 p.m. MS BURKE: Mr Prince, excuse the at 1:42. (A short recess at 1:42 p.m.) (Resumed at 1:46 p.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record A Q A Q A Q A Q A Carla Mane. Carla? Mane. M-a-n-e? I think so. When did she join the company? I don't remember. She's been with you for a while? She was. She's no longer with the
Exhibit 6, what was the purpose of Exhibit 5? A This was given to the personnel that
deployed for the company and it was what was expected of them while they were overseas. Q became final? A Q Did you review it in draft before it
company any more I don't think. Q A Where is she now? I don't know what she's doing. (Interruption by room service) MS BURKE: Take a break. Going off the record
And you don't think so because you're
relying on your knowledge of your normal business practices and it's not the type of thing you would normally review? A I don't remember reading it in a -I remember seeing it like
VIDEOGRAPHER:
you know, pages format. that.
whether you recognise this case and the disc? (Same handed to witness) A Well, the jacket looks familiar.
I don't know if the disc is valid or not. Q When you say "valid or not", you
don't know what's on the disc because we don't have it up on a computer?
Pages 201 - 204

Page 205 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q A Q to you, sir? A Well, the first two pages appear to What is Exhibit 7? It appears to be random photocopies. So the content of that has no meaning (Exhibit 7 marked for identification) (Witness reviewed the document) MR BEIZER: Since there is no Page 207
courtesy copy, may I see it after you've done looking at it before you answer just so I know what it's about? MS BURKE: And we'll attempt again to
make courtesy copies at the business centre. I went down on the lunch hour. They just are
having trouble with their machine and I didn't want to hold us up. MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Stuff happens. What was the question?
be some kind of a PSD, personal security detail-type list, some kind of excerpt from it. Q It looks like an excerpt of a list
you're familiar with? A It looks like an excerpt of some
generic personal security detail list.
Page 206
Page 208
Pages 205 - 208

Page 209 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you. foundation. MS BURKE: Wait a minute. Can you read A Q A Q companies? A it was in. Q A Well, how about the -I mean, Jim Diehart hired for the It depended on what area the company I don't know. Could be. Page 211 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Objection. No 14 15 16 17 18 "Q. Who had your 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 as to who was vested with that authority to hire project managers? A Somebody focused on the security side
Who else could it be, Mr Prince? I don't know. Who had hiring authority in your
of the business or the ops side or the foreign ops. I don't know. Q The security side, the ops side or
the foreign ops. Can you please describe for me what you put in each of those buckets? security side. First, on the
facilities guys. Q Who had your permission to hire
What goes into -- what type of work
are you using with that term. A Q A Q Static or mobile security. For WPPS or for all contracts? For any and all contracts. And then you say the ops side. What
someone to serve as the project manager for your Iraq operations? MR BEIZER:
do you mean by that? A That could be the state side. People
(To the court reporter) that question back, please? COURT REPORTER:
that are putting the resumis, the people, the logistics, the travel together to do it, and then on the foreign ops side there could be some kind of in-country management. Q Okay, and I just want to make sure
permission to hire someone to serve as the project manager for your Iraq operations?" MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: Your objection, sir? No foundation. I'm not sure I'm following
I'm understanding that last category. Foreign ops is basically that what you may refer to as, like, back office function but
I'm asking him who has authority.
Page 210 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Jackson. Q And when you say someone below Gary MR BEIZER: your permission to hiring. No, you asked who had It wasn't established At
Page 212 1 2 3 4 5 Okay, let's make sure the record is You've already testified you 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 So my question is who in the chain of 14 15 16 17 A I would say it was someone below Gary 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 situated in a foreign country? A I don't know that it's back office.
that he gave permission to hire several people. least that's my understanding of the record. BY MS BURKE: Q
It could be -- it could be very much the in-country logistics people, ops people that serve the needs of the customer. Q So, for example, recruiting.
clear, Mr Prince.
Recruiting is something you would put in ops if they're recruiting in the United States, and you would put it in foreign ops if they're recruiting abroad? A Q No, not necessarily. I'm just trying to understand how If somebody is --
hired top management, correct? A Q I did. And then you delegated down to others
permission to hire their under links, correct? A business, yes. Q As is the normal course of the
you're using these phrases. A
There is some hiring could have been
command had your delegated permission to hire someone to play the role as project manager for Iraq?
done or some decisions made by the in-country managers. If there is a sub-contractor or you
needed a guy to bring you diesel fuel to keep the generator running, that decision could be made by the in-country management. If it's other people, that would often be done by the programme manager of a certain programme or of the ops people. Q And the decision to hire a programme
Jackson, who are you talking about? A I don't know. I don't know who it
would have been at that period of time. Q Well, what was the title that you
manager who is going to be based in Iraq, would that be ops?
have in mind or the function that you have in mind
Pages 209 - 212

Page 213 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I don't know. I don't know where Page 215 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 A Well, you know, you're asking: Have 16 17 18 Q A Q Yes. Yes. Okay. Over 13 years? Sure. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 before. at me so... VIDEOGRAPHER: We can hear okay. A I went in for a couple of meetings
that decision tree was at that period in time. Q A Q Mr Prince. Well, where do you think it was? I don't know. But I'm trying to understand, These are your companies. You don't
regarding the PR policies, media policies. (Witness's microphone fell off) MS BURKE: get that back on, sir. THE WITNESS: I'm keeping it pointed We'd better wait until you
know who or where -A You're trying to ask me about
a specific hiring situation at a -Q A A process. -- at some unknown time of year, some I'm sorry, I don't know.
(Microphone adjusted) THE WITNESS: I went to the State
Department a couple of times over the amount of press attention we were receiving. BY MS BURKE: Q you meet with? A Q occasion? A Maybe it was two. Maybe it was four. I don't know. Who did you meet with on the first And on those two occasions who did That's all.
unknown year and month. Q
Do you have -- have you taken any
look at how the recruiting in your company was done?
I ever taken a look at anything over the course of the --
It was a few times. Q Let's take them first by time. Were
And so describe for me how
Blackwater recruited people to deploy? A Q Depending on what the contract was? Yes, WPPS. How did you recruit
these meetings all subsequent to the Nisour Square shootings? A No. Some of them may have been
people for WPPS?
Page 214 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A They're in the contract -- it's about
Page 216 1 2 3 4 My question is 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I'm not sure. I think there is even 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q So let's focus first on those
a thousand page contract approximately -- put out by the State Department that gives the criteria of the kind of people to do the work. Q I understand that.
meetings that were pre-Nisour Square shooting. Do you recall the State Department person or persons that you met with? A Q A Q A There was a guy named Paul. Do you recall the last name? Paul Isaacs. Isaacs? Yes. Christine. Anyway, the
how did you recruit to that contract term? A standards. And then there's qualification You put out e-mail blasts or recruiting
fares or job fares or whatever, and you get people that submit their resumis. You go through them and
management of the State Department for the high threat protection office. Q A Q A Q one occasion? A Q A Q A And a few others. Who were the few others? I don't know. Who came with you to the meeting? It could be the programme management I mean the company's programme Sometimes Gary Jackson. Yes, Christine? I think it was Christine. Do you recall her last name? No. So you met with these two people on
you submit those, as I remember, submit those resumis to the State Department, and they accept or don't accept. And then, from there, they go into a
security finance process and a psychoval and all those pieces. Q Psych; psychological.
And does the recruiting for the
project management follow the same course as the recruiting for the operators that you've just described? A
more State Department input on those kind of things, on those activities. Q Who did you deal with -- did you ever
of the company. management folks.
have any personal dealings with anyone at the State Department regarding the WPPS contract?
that's pretty much it.
Pages 213 - 216

Page 217 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you ever meet with the State Page 219 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I don't remember. What precipitated the meeting? Well some of them, they just wanted 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q A Q A Q So they asked you to come in? Mmmm. I'm sorry you have to -Yes. And then the next meeting that you 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there -A Q A Yes. -- at Baghdad? On occasion. yes. Q And did you meet him -- you met him Baghdad? A That's the only place I met him, so a State Department employee that handled contracts? A Q A Correct. Did you ever meet with him? He could have been present at one of
Department when Gary Jackson wasn't with you? A Q I don't know. This first meeting where you met with
Paul Isaacs and Christine and some others, what was the topic of the meeting, topic of discussion at the meeting? A Q A
those meetings too. Q A Q A Q A What about David Satterfield? I don't remember him. Margaret Scobe? I don't remember her. John Frese? Oh wait. Back up. Satterfield. He
to meet me, so they wanted the meet the leadership and management and ownership even of their various members.
might have been -- well, they were people at the Embassy. Baghdad. Q A Q I think Satterfield was. John Frese was the RSO. Regional security officer? Yes. And John Frese was the RSO in The US Embassy,
had with the State Department, who did you meet with at the State Department? A It could have been the same people. It was, you
It could have been different people.
know, a mix of overseers and contract folks. Q Who else do you recall meeting with
at the State Department?
Page 218 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q I don't remember. Are those the only two names you
Page 220 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 He must have worked there if you're 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 When you say a contracts guy, meaning 25 Q And just to be clear, when I was
asking you about meetings with the State Department I actually meant to include any part of the State Department. So did you have, in addition to the two to four meetings you had with the State Department, does that include the meetings you had in Baghdad? A No, there'd be more because if I
remember from the State Department? A Q Yes. So those are the -- this is one of
your major customers and those are the only two names you remember? A Q Desilotes? A Yes. Are you familiar with the name Paul
visited -- you know, when I visited the guys in Iraq, I would stop through and, you know, check the RSO. Q So you would repeatedly call on the
bringing it up. Q My question is whether you're
familiar with it, though? A Q Sure the name rings a bell. Do you recognise it? Had I asked it
RSO in Baghdad? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection. Vague.
Generally, whenever
in a different context, would you have recognised it as a State Department name? A I would have recognised it as a guy Whether he worked
I would visit the country, I would stop in and see the RSO. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince? A Q I don't remember. A lot. And how often did you visit Iraq,
that works for the government. for DoD or who, I'm not sure. Q A contracts guy. Q
Do you know Jamie Steve Rogers? Steve Rogers. I think he was a
A lot meaning once a month, twice Can you give
a month, once every other month? a little more?
Pages 217 - 220

Page 221 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Maybe three times a year, four times Page 223 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 What did you -- did you have 11 12 We 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 No. That wouldn't have been 23 24 25 MR BEIZER: ahead and answer. THE WITNESS: I might have ridden (To the witness) Go
a year, something like that. Q Did you bring Mr Jackson with you on
every trip you made to Baghdad? A No, no. In fact, I don't think we
a company helicopter to another one of the cities where there were other company personnel present to drop in and visit them due to the nature of driving on the roads would have been much more dangerous. operation. BY MS BURKE: Q occasion? A Q Yes. Did you ever give your direct So you rode in helicopters on I don't think that's considered an That's a logistics move.
ever travelled overseas together. Q A Was that by design? I think so, yes. I mean, in my
absence he would be able to continue on if I was taken out. Q
a particular pattern to your trips to Baghdad? Would you hold a meeting with all the people? know you always went to see the RSO, correct? A Sure. I'd join in an all-hands
permission or input in any way on an operation? Excuse me, on a WPPS operation? A Q No, I don't believe I did. Do you recall being asked whether the
meeting with -Q A That's the word I was looking for. -- people that were present, talk to
them, take questions, encourage them, thank them for their service. Q operations? A permitted. Did you ever go out on any
men on the ground -- and let me back up. I say "men on the ground". Did you
ever deploy females to Iraq in operational roles? A The company may have deployed some
females as a canine handler or as a medic, but I'm not sure of all the other rules they may or may not have had. I think there were some in those roles.
I had not gone through the WPPS
qualification training, so I would not have done
Page 222 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 one of their movements. Q Now, you have -- in the Vanity Fair
Page 224 1 2 3 4 Well, the Vanity Fair article may 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR BEIZER: Can I have a proffer as 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And so when I refer to men I'm
encompassing those few women as well to the extent that that's relevant. Do you recall being asked by -- being asked by your men in the field about permission to use the company helicopters in the -- and I may mispronounce this -- the Najeff situation? A That was during the CPA days. There
article you talked about working for the CIA as well, correct? A
speak to that, yes. Q My question was, I thought you said Am I mistaken?
that in the Vanity Fair article. A
As the New York Times has disclosed
was no State Department contract or anything then. That was all straight DoD. Q A Were you hired by DoD? Well, the company was hired by the
repeatedly, there was various classified programmes that I may or may not have been involved in, but a certain presence or participation had been leaked by someone in the US government. Q Mr Prince, did you ever go out on
CPA, which at that point was a DoD-only function. Q A Q So this is the precursor to WPPS? Correct. And on that occasion did your men in
operations in Baghdad that were not WPPS operations?
the field call you directly to ask your permission to use the helicopters? A Well, they asked for resupply because
to where this is going and how this could lead to admissible evidence? contract. This is about the WPPS
What has this got to do with it? MS BURKE: I'm trying to understand
the facility was under attack, and they asked if we could -- and that was -- I think that was four or five days after the guys had been ambushed and murdered in Falluja, and so that was the first part of April '04, and the Mactartarsartus people attacked the CPA facility in Najeff. I think they
how Mr Prince ran his business, and I'm trying to assess the credibility of information I've been given about him going out on operations. His
answer to this may reveal where that comes from.
Pages 221 - 224

Page 225 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 initiated that day by grabbing an El Salvadorian soldier, stuffing a grenade in his mouth and blowing him up. We had eight guys there as a small PSD team for the senior CPA guy, and there was a lot of people with AKs, and I presume starting attacking the facility and shooting at it, and our guys went up to the roof with a few other after-duty US soldiers that were there and defended their position. And during the course of that there was a marine that was shot through. name was Corporal Wanny Young. I think his Page 227 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Young was awarded the Silver Star and there was no other -- well, there was one other casualty but he recovered as well, so the boys did well that day. The guy that we evacuated was awarded the Silver Star, but a marine got it for valour that day. BY MS BURKE: Q You say -- you refer to "the boys".
Who were the men that were involved in that mission? A Q A Q I don't remember. Did you know at the time? No. Does the name Ben Thomas mean
He needed
evacuation, Medivac, and no military helicopters would come because they said it was too hot. And
anything to you? A Q A No. You don't know Ben Thomas? No. MS BURKE: I'm going to hand you a
so between the guys doing resupply and this marine needing to get to the hospital, the guys called and asked if they could send helicopters down there. Q A And they called you personally? Well, they asked the -- you know,
document, a photograph that we'll mark as Exhibit 8. (Exhibit 8 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, you've been handed Is that you in
there was the ground side doing the PSD stuff, and then there was the air side. We had three
helicopters in the country then contracted to do the CPA or the support for Ambassador Bremer, and they -- so they asked the in-country air guy, and
a photograph marked as Exhibit 8. the centre?
Page 226 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he wasn't going to send the helicopters into an area where there was heavy fighting without permission because at that point we were self-insured, so any risk to not just the men but the helicopters, would have fallen back on the company, and they wanted approval from senior management, from the people that owned the helicopters. And so they called and said, "Yes, go
Page 228 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A Correct, and they got permission from 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 I'm going to hand you -Incidentally, Corporal 24 25 A Q That is me in the middle. Do you recognise the two men on
either side of you? A Q A No. Do you know where this was taken? It looks likes it was in the hanger
on Washington LZ. Q A Where is Washington LZ? It's right across the street from the
support the guys". Q And just, when you say "senior
US Embassy Baghdad, and it's where the helicopters that we flew to support the State Department mission were kept and maintained and kept out of the sand. It's where I'd typically do all-hands meetings because it was at least big enough that we could close the doors and have some level of quiet from the helicopters and all the rest of the noise. Q Can you tell from the badges on the
management", the people that own the helicopters, they wanted your okay before they proceeded, correct?
the -- I think they actually, they got permission from Ambassador Bremer as well, so... Q Mr Prince, other than that particular
occasion, do you recall being called to give your express approval on any other occasion? A Q aberrational? A No, I don't remember. And so that was somewhat It was the only time you remember? Yes. MS BURKE:
men whether these are your employees or State Department employees? A Q I can't tell at all. And you can't tell by -- you don't
recognise them? A No. MS BURKE: I'm going to hand you what
THE WITNESS:
Pages 225 - 228

Page 229 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we'll mark as Exhibit 9. (Exhibit 9 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, on Exhibit 9 first do you Is that your helicopter? Page 231 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Those would probably be signalling 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 they would have come from, and I don't know what the company policy was for the carriage of either smoke grenades, signalling grenades, thermite grenades or whatever. was. I don't know what the policy
recognise the equipment? A Q photograph? A Q on his vest? canisters? A
It has to do with whatever the arming
It would appear to be, yes. And what about the gentleman in the Is that somebody you know? No. What about the canisters that he has Do you know what's in those
agreement was with the State Department. Q Okay. And so you did not -- you did
not give blanket permission for the men to carry smoke and thermite grenades, correct? A I say again I don't know what the
company's policy was or the State Department's policy was for the carriage of that kind of material. Q A Q make sure. Okay. End of statement. And that's what I'm just trying to The only thing that you ever did was to
grenades, smoke grenades. Q A Was one -Or one might be a -- I think the
bigger one, the green one, is probably a smoke, and the other one might be a thermite grenade. sure. I'm not
tell them to follow whatever was in the company policy? A Q Or the State Department policy. Okay. And, as you sit here today,
They could be smokes, could be thermites. Q And you permitted your men to carry
the thermites and the smoke grenades, correct? A Well, certainly if the helicopter
you don't know whether the company policy or the State Department policy let them carry those kind of grenades? A I don't know that, correct.
went down or if there was a unit that was in attack, the smoke grenade was designed for signalling or for screening to break contact with
Page 230 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 issued. the people that are attacking them, and the thermite grenade was to destroy any sensitive equipment so it wouldn't fall into the hands of the enemy, both of which don't blow up. Actually, the
Page 232 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Is that a 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And you don't know where that
equipment came from? A Typically, the sensitive stuff was
issued by the -- earlier by the military or then by the State Department. Q Did you ever -- did you and your
smoke grenade just makes a lot of smoke, and the thermite grenade just burns very hot straight down. They are non-frag producing. Q Is that a "yes", sir?
companies ever buy grenades? A Q A grenades. I don't know. Who would know that? Well, I do know we bought signalling Not signalling. Practice grenades for
"yes" to my question? A I don't know what the policy or
procedure was for the guys carrying smokes or thermites or whatever. Q My question was whether you permitted Did you permit
doing the qualification courses as part of the stuff dictated by the State Department. Q Okay, so you do know that grenades,
your guys to carry those grenades.
the men to carry smoke and thermite grenades? A I say, again, I don't know what the
signalling grenades were bought domestically for training in the -A Q A grenades. No, no. -- United States? Sorry, they were not signalling They were -- it's -- an M203 practice
company policy was. Q Setting aside the policy, though, did
you give approval and permission for the men to be wearing that kind of gear? A Well, the vest he's wearing looks
grenade is nothing but a metal slug that comes out with a big ball of orange talcum powder. Q A So it's like a fig grenade? Yes, you just see where it hits in a
like it was either government or company issued. Q A I'm sorry -The weapon was certainly government The grenades are -- I don't know where
big poof of orange powder.
Pages 229 - 232

Page 233 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 them. Q And so you know that your companies Page 235 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 It's 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you ask? A Q A Q A you go to in Iraq to find out the answer to that question? A That's unclear as well because the
bought those practice grenades, correct? A Well, I saw the guys training with
I don't know who bought them, whether it was
State Department or the company could have bought them in the States and shipped them out on the State Department's logistics' channel. Q It's a slightly more simple question,
issued by the State Department or acquired by us. Q If you're out there and you see this
practice grenade being used in training and you want to find out, "Oh, did we buy that or did the State Department buy that?", who would you go to for the answer, back in the '04/'05 time frame? A Probably someone in the procurement
though, Mr Prince. I'm just asking you to what human being would you go to find out the information on where those grenades came from? You said you don't
or logistics side of the house. Q A Q A name please? I don't know. Can you give me any names on the
know whether you bought them or not and I'm trying to figure out -A So in my answer that is, if the
in-country manager, if they arrive on a shipment, a logistics' shipment from the State Department, is it company stuff or is it State Department procured stuff? I don't know. Q I know you don't know but who would If you're trying to trace down -The in-country manager. Okay, and so you would ask the -The in-country manager --- in-country manager --- or the logistics person back in
logistics side of the house? A No, I don't remember that.
a long time ago. Q Well, you're still running -- the They're
companies are still being run now, right? still in existence? A Q Correct. Do you know who the current
procurement people are? A I know a guy named Todd Shaw runs
Page 234 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 procurement now. Q companies? A Q Within the last couple of years. Now, if you are in Baghdad and you're Do you recall when he joined the
Page 236
at your all-hands meeting, you see the men wearing these grenades and you want to find out -A They wouldn't come to those meetings
all dressed up ready for -- ready for work. Q When you went to Baghdad, did you
ever see any of the men dressed as you see in picture Exhibit 9? A Sure. I saw some of them with the
ballistic vests and the mag pouches on them, sure. Q Did you ever see any of your men
carrying grenades? A That's something I don't remember
specifically, what their load-out was. Q When you say load-out, that is
a reference to how they're equipped? A Q Correct. Now, had you been in Iraq and had you
seen the men loaded out with grenades and you wanted to find out whether you bought them or whether the State Department bought them, who would
Pages 233 - 236

Page 237 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q as Exhibit 10. A Q I'm handing you a photograph marked Do you recognise that man? No. If you look down at the bottom here, Carroll? A Q A The name is familiar to me now, yes. Did he hold that role? I don't know if he was the programme BY MS BURKE: Q Do you remember the name Danny Page 239 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 And what do you remember as his role? Liaising with the State Department, 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A Q Well, it looks like a Glock pistol. I'm going to hand you what's marked 24 25 picture. Q Okay. Did you do a search, rented? A Q I'm not familiar with that at all. And, to the best of your knowledge, A Q No. So that's not a villa that you
it's not a site where your men were? A That's the first I've ever seen that
manager or the deputy, but I do remember he was part of it. Q A
a personnel search, before you hired Mr Yorio? A Q A Q position? A It was probably -- I think I got ten We use an executive search firm. Which firm is that? I can't remember. How many people applied for the
organising the WPPS in-country operations. MS BURKE: I'm going to hand you a
photograph marked as Exhibit 10 and another photograph marked as Exhibit 11. (Exhibits 10 and 11 marked for identification)
or twelve resumis. Q And did you -- how many people did
you personally interview for the job? A Q Probably six. That's a guess.
Who participated with you in the
can you identify what equipment he is loaded out with?
selection process, if anyone? A Gary interviewed some of them.
I interviewed all of them with the headhunters. And then the final three or four candidates
Page 238 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 strap. BY MS BURKE: Q Would you explain to me what the pointing to? MS BURKE: I'm pointing to the... as Exhibit 11. I believe one of the people is the Do you recognise
Page 240 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I'm going to hand you what 20 21 22 23 Mr Prince, do you recognise that 24 25 others. Q interviewed around with some of the other senior management that are down there. Q A Q A Q A Q A Who? Mike, Fred. Mike Taylor and Fred Roitz? Yes. Danielle.
same but there are two other men.
either of the two men in that photo, or any of the three men in that photograph? A Q No. And in terms of the equipment, if (Indicating) I'm sorry, what were you
I may point at something? MR BEIZER:
Danielle Morrison/Esposito? (No response) Anyone else? And I don't remember any of the They could have. I'm not sure.
Was it a group process to select
gentleman in the middle is loaded out with, and particularly what the red rope is used for? A It could be some kind of a safety
Mr Yorio or is it something that you made the decision on your own? A On that one I pretty much took the
If he was serving as a door gunner on one
lead, but it was -- you know, it was, I'd say, overall a consensus decision. Q How has Mr Yorio performed since you
of the helicopters, it would secure themselves to the helicopter. Q Thank you. MS BURKE: we'll mark as Exhibit 12. (Exhibit 12 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q building?
brought him on board? A Q A He's doing the job. Do you trust him? In most areas. I haven't developed
the long personal relationship with him that I have with the other guys. MS BURKE: I'm going to put on the
Pages 237 - 240

Page 241 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it came out. BY MS BURKE: Q Was there anything in the indictment record what we'll mark as Exhibit 13, and it's the United States indictment in the weapons case. MR BEIZER: In the weapons case? Page 243 1 2 3 4 5 Mr Prince, I'm going to hand you what 6 7 8 9 10 MR BEIZER: Same instruction not to 11 12 13 14 I read it when 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 those? A Q So I read these four things and -And my question is this. Have you BY MS BURKE: Q Have you had an opportunity to read to be facts. MS BURKE: my question to you, sir. MR BEIZER: You know -Well, that's going to be of facts. THE WITNESS: What they hope to prove want me to read from paragraph 4? Q No. Paragraphs -- do you see the
heading Obstruction of Justice? A Q Right. And then there's four statements of
(Exhibit 13 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q
fact by the government 1, 2, 3, 4? A Q Okay. And those four paragraphs describe an
we've marked as Exhibit 13 but, first, I want to ask you, have you read the indictment of Gary Jackson, William Mathews, Andrew Howell, Ron Slezak and Ana Bundy?
incident in which Mr Howell and Ms Bundy brought Mr Yorio a letter to be backdated. MR BEIZER: And when you say
answer to the extent the answer would reveal any reading in front of with, by with, or counsel. Other than that you can answer. THE WITNESS: I did.
"statements of fact", counsel, you mean allegations, right? MS BURKE: The government's statement
that you disagree with? A Well, I believe they're innocent
until proven guilty. Q I recognise that's the legal
standard, sir, but what I'm asking you is something slightly different. You were the owner of these companies
Page 242 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 page 15. Justice? A (Witness reviewed the document) You where these acts are alleged to have occurred. When you read the indictment, did you believe that the acts had been described properly or did you disagree with the way the government had described the actions of your management team? A Do I disagree with the indictments?
Page 244 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A Having read it four months ago, 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 It's 22 23 24 25 Yorio. Q A Q Why not? I don't know. As between Mr Yorio's version of spoken to Mr Yorio about the information that's in the indictment about Mr Howell and Ms Bundy approaching him to backdate a letter? A No, I have not discussed that with
Yes, and I believe they'll be found innocent. Q And do you disagree with the factual
information that is set forth in the indictment papers?
events and Mr Howell and Ms Bundy's version of events, do you side with one or the other? A that happened. the case. Again, I don't know all the events This is the government's side of
I don't know -- you know, the detail line-by-line. Q I'm going to direct your attention to
I've never even heard Andy Howell's or
one particular -- one particular issue, and it involves Mr Andrew Howell and Ana Bundy. And I will give you this to read, but if you would read the obstruction of justice at page 15? There's four paragraphs that describe
Ana Bundy's side of things, so I'll say I don't know and I haven't delved into the issues since there are a whole lot of highly paid federal employees who are doing their best to dig into it themselves. Q So you haven't looked into the -- you
Mr Howell and Ms Bundy attempting to have Mr Yorio backdate a letter. A Q (Same handed to the witness)
haven't looked into this obstruction of justice incident at all, personally? A Q Well, it was not really my role to. But what I'm trying to understand,
Paragraph 4 you said? It's those four paragraphs.
It's under the heading Obstruction of
sir, is, you have previously testified you have complete faith in Mr Howell and you've also
Pages 241 - 244

Page 245 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 testified you have faith in Mr Yorio. The two of And Page 247 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Objection. Compound. If 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 And just to carry your analogy This is a traffic accident that's 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Usually when -- you know, it's my 25 way. Q A Q A sense of it. Q Were you in -- were you in McLean What did you tell Mr Yorio? Comply with the law. You used those words with him? I don't know. It was probably that that. Q What did Mr Yorio tell you it was that there was some visit by the ATF, some kind of inspection, and there'd been some disagreement as to the outcome of that inspection with Andy. Q Mr Yorio told you he was having
them have conflicting views on what happened.
am I understanding your testimony correctly that you're standing on the side lines, you're not taking a position, you're not siding with either one, and you haven't informed yourself at all about the underlying facts? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS:
a disagreement with Andy about what should be done? A Q I think so. And did Mr Yorio explain to you that
Andy wanted him to phoney up the record? A I don't remember any discussion like
You know what?
there was a traffic accident outside and you asked five different people who were standing there watching the event happen, you would get five different versions of the same episode. So, like
that Andy Howell wanted him to do? A Q I don't remember. And did you encourage Mr Yorio to do
I said, I haven't dug into the who said, he said, what said. BY MS BURKE: Q
what it was that Mr Howell wanted him to do? A I didn't make a recommendation either
further, though.
happening in your company by people you employ and you haven't talked to any of them? A Well, after this incident Andy Howell It was -- like Bill
decided to leave the company.
Mathews, the amount of scrutiny, it was time to make a change.
when you got this call from Mr Yorio? A I'm not sure.
Page 246 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understanding, as it was explained by various outside counsels, that when enough pressure is put on an organisation, the federal regulators expect the management team to be changed, so Andy then departed the company shortly after this happened. Q A Q Shortly after -Well, shortly after --- the indictment or shortly after
Page 248 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 After the incident happened? Yes. So you were aware of the incident 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I remember Yorio calling and saying 25 phone? A Q this happen? A By the dates on there, it was Again, I don't know. And that was just -- how long ago did were? A Q No. Was it just you and Mr Yorio on the Q with him? A No, I don't think I was on the Were you physically in the same room
compound at all. Q A Q So this was on the telephone? Probably a cell phone. And you just don't remember where you
the incident that's described in the indictment? A this happened. Q A Q Within some weeks or months after
before the indictment came down? A I was aware of other federal agents
March 26 of '09. Q Did Mr Howell call you alerting you
wanting to come to the facility for some auditor visit or something. Q Let me just make sure I'm
that he was having a disagreement with Mr Yorio? A Q I don't remember. You dealt a lot directly with
understanding, Mr Prince. Did Mr Yorio call you or contact you in any way and tell you that Mr Howell had just asked him to backdate a document and he had refused to do so? A
Mr Howell and had done so for years, right? A him directly. Q trust in him? And then what was the basis of your No, I actually dealt very little with
Pages 245 - 248

Page 249 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that again. A He was a good and decent family man. Page 251 1 2 3 You'll have to say 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 What did you mean by describing him 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 at 2:42 p.m. (A short recess at 2:42 p.m.) (Resumed at 2:51 p.m.) a brief break. VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record in Mr Howell? Are you personally confident that
Oddly enough, he was an upper classman of mine at the Naval Academy. COURT REPORTER:
Mr Howell didn't falsify any documents while he was in your employ? A I don't know that he did or didn't,
"Oddly enough he was"? THE WITNESS: Oddly enough he was an So my
but I am quite confident that would not be in keeping with what he had been doing as was his practice as a lawyer. Q Mr Prince, you talked about not Was there any impediment to Did
upper classman of mine at the Naval Academy. freshman year.
He was in the same company so... It turns out when he was hired I
knowing the details.
found out who it was and then I recognised that he would have been a senior classmate of mine at the Academy so... BY MS BURKE: Q
you finding out the details of this incident? anybody refuse to talk to you? A
Well, because of the nature of the
federal interest in all this, I was advised by other counsel -- I asked them. I said, "Look, is
as a good and decent family man? A He was a -- you know, he seemed -He seemed to be a calm
this something that the rest of the company should be digging into?" And he said, no, because, you
I met his wife and family. and steady unexcitable guy. Q
know, "Don't make it appear you're trying to affect any outcomes or influence anything", so I stayed away from them. MS BURKE: We're going to take
Other than talking to Mr Yorio, do
you recall talking to anybody else about this conflict between Mr Yorio and Mr Howell? A Q A No. You know that you did not? I don't know that I did not but
I don't remember.
Page 250 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 other? A Q No. Do you remember Mr Yorio telling you Q You don't remember one way or the
Page 252 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A Yes, I would say that would be 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 What I'm asking is are you confident 25 2:51 p.m. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, before the break we were VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record at
that he was going to cooperate with the federal government and inform them about what Mr Howell had done?
talking about the indictment of your top management team on these weapons smuggling charges and you said that you had been advised by your lawyers not to talk to anyone directly? A I don't think it was weapon smuggling
consistent with, you know, follow the law and cooperate with the feds. Q And so now, Mr Prince, after you
charges, was it? Q Well, whatever characterisation you
learned from Mr Yorio that, in his view, Mr Howell was trying to have him falsify a record, did you begin to have any concerns about whether Mr Howell had engaged in similar conduct in other matters? A Again, not knowing the details of
want to use is fine, but the indictment that you have before you as Exhibit 13? A Q Okay. Other than -- other than stepping out
of it personally, did you engage anyone to go and find out what had really happened? A As part of the company's ongoing
that incident, one blip like this may cause concern but certainly not a collapse of confidence. Q So Mr Howell continues to retain your
cooperation with the DoJ, Lee Rubin, who was the lead outside counsel, went and did a detailed investigation. Q investigation? A Q I think so. And was it a written report or an Did he give you a report on that
confidence, even today? A He is innocent until proven guilty
and I believe he will be found innocent. Q Mr Prince. That's a different question though,
Pages 249 - 252

Page 253 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 disagreement. privilege. MS BURKE: I think we have another oral report? A I think he gave me a verbal report. Page 255 1 2 3 When did he give 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Okay. So you're not talking about You're talking 13 14 15 16 17 18 I'm going to instruct the 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ago. A Q Correct. The agreements you have in place with
It was over the phone. Q A verbal report.
Mr Jackson, Mr Howell, Ms Bundy and the others, in which you continue to pay for their legal fees and pay severance, does that require them to appear at depositions? A Q I don't know. You don't know what the terms of the
you that report? A Some days or weeks after the event in
question happened. Q I'm sorry, just so the record is
clear, when you say "the event in question happened", are you referring to -A Andy Howell. Q This would be the March 2009 claim of
agreement provide in terms of cooperation? A Q I have no idea. You've seen the agreements, you just
don't remember? A Multi-page agreements signed years
the issuance of the indictment? about the incident itself? A Q Correct.
I don't, no. Q Have you asked Mr Jackson whether he
would be willing to sit for a deposition in this case pursuant to a notice? A together. Q A Did you ever -Although I will say that we discussed We've never discussed either of this
What did Mr Rubin tell you he and his
colleagues had found? MR BEIZER:
witness not to answer that question. MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: Grounds? Attorney/client
that he's met with his lawyer and he is very confident of his defence team and his exoneration. MS BURKE: non-responsive. I'll strike that as
Do you want to confer?
Page 254 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q concurring. instruction? A Q Of course. Other than Mr Rubin's investigation, It's not a question of you Are you going to follow his instruction. Same basis. THE WITNESS: I concur with him. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, what did Mr Rubin tell you MR BEIZER: I do not want to confer.
Page 256 1 2 3 4 Again, the same 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Alleged attempt to 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 And you're referring to Mr Rubin? 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Do you have the ability to require BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince. A Well, you said if I've ever discussed There was no question pending,
he had found out? MR BEIZER:
this with Mr Jackson, this legal case with Mr Jackson, and so I was -Q I asked whether you had talked to him
Instruct the witness not to answer.
about sitting for a deposition so... It's fine. You can add gratuitous
commentary, but I have to move to strike it so that later it doesn't come into the court's proceeding. A I think it was germane because you
said deposition or case or whatever, so I -MR BEIZER: Whatever.
did you -- did you get information from anybody else that related to Mr Howell's attempt to backdate a letter? MR BEIZER: backdate a letter.
Mr Jackson to show up for a meeting? A Q He is a free citizen. I understand that but you have some
Form of the question. Well, again, he was the
THE WITNESS: lead outside counsel. investigate it.
kind of financial relationship with him, some kind of agreement with him. As you sit here today, do you understand yourself as free to require Mr Jackson to show up to a meeting as part of your agreement? A I don't understand my ability to
It was his task to
And he is a very trusted and
capable lawyer and he provided the information. BY MS BURKE: Q
Pages 253 - 256

Page 257 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sure. them. Q Does he have such a contract with you require him to show up anywhere. Q You don't know the terms of the Page 259 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Yes, I would say he probably has 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Are there any others, besides those 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3:01 p.m. MS BURKE: The book has 279 pages and at 2:59 p.m. (A short recess at 2:59 p.m.) (Resumed at 3:01 p.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record at MS BURKE: Give me a second. Do you need this before we begin the questioning or shall I just grab it at the next break? MR BEIZER: I don't know because Yes, that's no problem.
agreement on that? A Q No. And who maintains those contracts?
Would those be something that we should get from Christian? A
I don't know what the questions are, so it's probably better to -MS BURKE: We're off the record. VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record Okay, I'll go grab it.
as well, Christian? A He has an employment agreement in
place but he's not been on as long and, due to the nature of selling the business, it would be more of a completion bonus at the termination of a transaction. Q
you've already testified about, who have this type of long-term severance arrangement? A I think Mike Taylor, Fred Roitz,
I'll leave it here on the table if anyone wants to refer to the whole book. BY MS BURKE: Q My question about what I gave you,
Chris Burgess, and there's one or two other guys that may have left the company voluntarily but... Q A Who are those? I think Jeff Gibson did, but I'm not
she purports to reproduce an e-mail from a State Department person, and I wanted to know whether you know what State Department person wrote that e-mail?
Page 258 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 at all. would like. as Exhibit 14. (Exhibit 14 marked for identification) MR BEIZER: Counsel, do you know how We've got a copy of Q training? A Q of agreement? A Q That's all I can think of right now. And Mike Taylor, Fred Roitz and Chris I think so. Do you recall who else had that type He was head of international
Page 260 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I'm going to hand you an (Same handed) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 I can get the book if you 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it? A Q I don't know. And I understand that you and your A Well, having read ahead in our break
here, I see that there's commentary from Steve Rogers, so I imagine that's who it was from. Q Do you know that, though? I want to First,
just pin down whether you actually know.
did you provide a copy of this e-mail to Miss Simons? A Q No. Did someone in your companies provide
Burgess are all still on board with you, correct? A Yes. MS BURKE:
excerpt from Miss Simon's book. MR BEIZER: MS BURKE:
What number is this? I'm sorry, we'll mark this
companies cooperated and provided Miss Simons access, some degree of access to your operations? A Provided her some access under the
premise that the book was going to be on the industry at large, and then it became more about the company, and then ultimately she wrote it about me so... Q A When -When we cooperated it was under the
many pages the whole book is? double pages of 1 -MS BURKE:
I have it in the other room. MR BEIZER: -- 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 pages,
something like that.
If you would, just so we -Sure. -- have the context of it
premise that it was on the industry at large. Q So, in a sense, you feel that you
MS BURKE: MR BEIZER:
were duped by Miss Simons? A Well, she changed the focus of the
Pages 257 - 260

Page 261 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 done. Q Had you known the focus of the book, book -Q A Q A mid-stream. Q Did she alert you that she was And had you known --- mid-stream. Sorry, go ahead? She changed the focus of the book Page 263 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Were people directed not to? After we figured out -- well, after 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q I mean, like, are there some people you know any? MS BURKE: Yes. Q And poor questioning on my part. You don't recall one way or the other or you know for certain you did not see it? A Q I don't recall one way or the other. Did you review Miss Simons' book to
ascertain whether the quotations she attributed to you were accurate? A Q No, not at all. I may ask you about some of them
changing the focus of the book? A After the interviews were already
later, if time permits, but I take it at this point that they may or may not be. them, correct? A Q Correct. The personnel in Moyock who were You haven't looked at
would you have cooperated? A Q No. Did you or people in your employ
provide her some amount of documentation? A Q A I don't think. Q A I don't know. And who would -No-one would have been directed to,
handling the WPPS operations, my understanding is that there was a Valerie Hoover involved in recruiting, is that correct? A Q I don't know. Do you know any of the personnel
beyond the upper management? MR BEIZER: Objection. Vague. Do
it became apparent that it was more about me, then definitely the phone calls weren't returned. Q So at some point you gave a directive
not to cooperate with Miss Simons?
Page 262 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recall? A I cannot, sitting here today, tell A Q Yes. And that was after she had already
Page 264
conducted extensive interviews of your employees? A Q Say again one more time? That was after she had already
conducted extensive interviews of your employees? A Interviews of a few employees and she
came to Afghanistan and saw some of the operations there. Q A Q And she interviewed you as well? Yes. Now, I did, as you did, and read that
her next reference on the State Department on page 171 was to Steve Rogers, but I wanted to see whether you knew for certain whether Mr Rogers was the person that wrote this e-mail? A Q No. I thought perhaps you may have
you that he wrote that e-mail. Q Okay. Do you have recall that you
saw that e-mail when whoever it was at the State Department wrote it to your company? A No.
Pages 261 - 264

Page 265 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 did you have org charts in your possession? A I had them from time to time but I -I pretty much -- I Page 267 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 MR BEIZER: repeat that question? BY MS BURKE: Q Did you ever consider changing the I'm sorry, could you 8 9 10 11 12 13 There are different business 14 15 16 17 18 I don't know. I don't know if 19 20 21 You believe now they're called casual 22 23 No. I said that there's two 24 25 a lot. Q Did you ever make any efforts to that? A I don't even think we could store Q Do you know the kind of ammunition
that they made? A Q No. Do you know whether your company
I didn't keep them on file. remember who was where. Q
Did you ever consider changing the
bought white phosphorous? A That would be surprising. No,
status of the men from independent contractor to employee?
I don't think so. Q And who would know the answer to
that on the property so... Q A So you're sure you didn't buy it? I'm not sure. I would doubt that
status of the men from independent contractors to employees? A
advantages to each one of those models and we explored what all those options were. Q contractors? A At present are they still independent
ascertain whether the men deployed in-country were buying white phosphorous and other materials off the black market? A That's not a tail I've ever heard.
they're ICEs or -- I think they're called casual employees. Q employees? A
I would find it to be very surprising, and impractical as well. Q A Q But that wasn't my question, sir. What's your question? My question is whether you had anyone
approaches to doing that, as independent
make any efforts to find out whether the men
Page 266 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know? A Q Yes. Where does the -- where do your contractors or as casual employees. Q A And you don't currently know -I'm not sure what that status has
Page 268 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I don't think so. 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Weaponry? A I never had any knowledge of that. White phosphorous, grenades, guns? question. THE WITNESS: What things? deployed in-country were buying things off the black market? MR BEIZER: MS BURKE: MR BEIZER: Buying things? Yes. That was not the
switched to, or if it's switched at all. Q And that's something Joe Yorio would
companies buy the guns and ammunition? A Q A From where? Yes. Well, generally from the -- you know,
I mean, pretty much all our contracts required US weapons, and generally they were government furnished. Q I understand that, sir, but my
from the manufacturer or from one of their wholesale distributors. Q A Q Which manufacturers do you buy from? A lot of them. What are the names of the wholesale
question is whether or not you ever tried to figure out whether the men in-country were buying weaponry off the black market? A I don't know if there was ever any
distributors that you use? A Q A I don't know those names. Do you know the name Lamos? No. I think they made some kind of
investigations done for that or not. Q And now you on occasion, on one
ammunition a long time ago. Q ammunition? A Did you ever buy any of that
occasion you went to Iraq because you were concerned that employees within your company were selling weapons out into the black market, right? A Well, we did have one internal
Pages 265 - 268

Page 269 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 us. problem at the company. On an internal audit we found that two former marine and law enforcement officers, named Ken Cashwell and Max Ramo, had been stealing company weapons, selling them illegally, pocketing the money. ATF. So we turned that whole package over to Page 271 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 And so it's your testimony that these 11 12 13 A Absolutely. They were stealing from 14 15 16 17 18 19 They were working in the armoury. In the United States? Correct. What I'm asking you about is a 20 21 22 23 24 25 as well. BY MS BURKE: Q And was that facility referred to as
the team house? A I knew of it as a team house. There
could have been others as well. Q
I don't know.
They were prosecuted and convicted, and
When you say "there could have been
they've been spinning a lot of nonsense ever since, a lot of tell-tails trying to lighten their sentence. Q
others as well", you mean there could have been other facilities owned by you that were referred to as a team house? A Nothing was owned by us. You could
two gentlemen have been lying about you and your company?
only rent in Iraq. Q A Operated by you? Yes. I mean, that was the main one.
We caught them.
And now they're lying trying
That was the one I ever visited. Q And were there other facilities that
to lighten the load. Q When did you -- but those men were
were commonly referred to as the team house, in Iraq, by your company? A Q No. So speaking about that team house,
not in Iraq when they were selling the weapons, were they? A Q A Q
the one in Iraq, did you -- did you become concerned that there was -- the people working in the team house were selling weapons on the black market? A Did I ever become personally
situation that came to your attention in Iraq that -- there's a team house in Iraq, correct?
Page 270 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 foundation. (To the witness) THE WITNESS: we had storage of equipment. been firearms. You can answer. A attention. Q It's alleged to have come to my I don't know that anything has. Well, that's what I'm trying to find
Page 272 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A Q No. We have no presence in Iraq. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 concerned? Q A Q that at all? A Did I ever personally investigate it? Yes. No. So you never -- you never looked into
out from you, sir. A Q A Q Go ahead. There's a team house in Iraq, right? There were lots of team houses. Is there a place where your company
No, I don't recall ever doing that. Q And by "personally" meaning did you I'm not
stores weapons that's called a team house in Baghdad?
ever get anyone else to do it for you? expecting that you did it yourself. A
I think there were some media reports
In the past, sir, when you were You pulled out in '09, correct?
about alleged weapon smuggling or something and, of course, we did an investigation as part of the ongoing compliance programme for the Department State. Q look into -A Q A Q A Sure. -- the sale of weapons -Respond --- on the black market? Responding to media reports. Not So the State Department asked you to
operating in Iraq. A Q Yes.
So prior to '09, when you lost your
license and pulled out, was there a building that was commonly referred to as the team house? MR BEIZER: Objection. No
There were places where Some of it would have
And, you know, we had armoured
based on any facts. reporting. Q Okay.
Just what the media were
vehicles that we ran to and from the Embassy to the airport and we had a small maintenance shop there
I want to make sure the record
Pages 269 - 272

Page 273 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not? A No. Well, do I know that the custody is reading clearly, though, because I'm getting a bit confused. At some point you initiated an investigation that was precipitated by a request from the State Department? A That's possible. At some point the Page 275 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 And so there was 21 22 23 Well, it was -- it was initiated by 24 25 though. A So there would have been consumption
of that ammunition for those training purposes. Q My question, sir, is different I'm trying to understand what
record-keeping was done on the ammunition. Was there a tracking of the amount of ammunition that was being used, regardless of for that purpose? A As I recall, it was similar to what
company could have done that because, again, there was media reports. The State Department sees that
and says, "Hey, tell us everything you know about that". So the company initiates an investigation. I don't remember personally giving direction for any such investigation. Q That was going to be my question
the military's tracking programme was for ammunition. Q A Q So there was tracking? I think so. I'm not sure.
because "could have" is not -- I need to know whether it had happened or not. Do you know whether it happened or
And this is tracking by accounts and
written documents? A what the -Q You don't know, okay. So who would you direct me to to get a full understanding of the tracking of the ammunition that was done, if any, in Iraq during the WPPS era? A Someone in the logistics area. You I don't know. Again, I don't know
procedures of inventorying guns in Iraq was investigated and enhanced? Q Okay. Yes.
All right.
some investigation initiated by the State Department? A
could ask Todd Shaw. right direction.
He'd probably send you in the
the company at the request of the State Department.
Page 274 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. And so what exactly did the
Page 276 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q What type of record-keeping was kept 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Was Todd Shaw in Iraq? No. Can you give me the name of someone
State Department ask you to do? A Q I don't know the details of that. What you do recall is that there was
who was in Iraq that had first-hand knowledge of the tracking that I could speak to? A Of the logistics function? No,
some level of investigation undertaken and, as a result of that, the custody procedures for the weaponry were enhanced? A Yes. I think there was more regular
I don't know who that would be. Q A Q A You don't remember? I don't remember. But you knew at the time, I take it? Not necessarily. I mean, did I know
inventory reports sent back and there were some other changes made. those. I don't know the detail of
who was issuing stuff at a warehouse or keeping track of bottles of water? level of clarity. Q not water. A water, mo. Q It's a logistics function. Ammunition; mo. Food, I was talking about the ammunition, No, I didn't have that
on the use of ammunition in Iraq by your companies? A Q A I've no idea. Who would know the answer to that? Probably someone that worked in
finance because that would have been an expendable. Q Other than financial tracking, was
Food, water, mo.
there any on-the-ground record-keeping in Iraq of the amount of ammunition that was used by the men? A With the WPPS contracts there was
Who do you view as most responsible
for having overseen or supervised the billing of the United States government on WPPS? A responsible? Who do I oversee as the most That would be a combination of the
regular in-country training that was required. Q A Q I'm not talking about -And so --- training, sir.
WPPS programme management team and the finance team.
Pages 273 - 276

Page 277 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q So please give me the names of the Page 279 1 2 3 You 4 5 6 7 8 Probably monthly. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 He 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Did you ever write in and tell the story. MS BURKE: I know it is, sir, but I'm MS BURKE: Move to strike. Come on, that's a cool
people that you put in that category? A Fred Roitz, Mike Taylor, Vick or You go with the contract.
THE WITNESS:
Danielle Esposito.
figure out what is do-able and what's -- you know, you submit the invoices. Q How often was the company invoicing
sorry, it's still not in response to a question, so it needs to be struck. THE WITNESS: It was her question.
State Department on WPPS? A I don't know.
I don't think it was quarterly. Q A Q You think it was monthly? That's a guess. Who were the personnel responsible
company people not to bill for any of the operator's time? A Q Not to bill? Yes. For example, the Nisour Square
for oversight of billing Homeland Security on the Louisiana, the Katrina contracts? A It would be like Shamus Flatly.
shooting, did you bill the government for that? A Q I don't know. So you didn't write in and say, "Hey,
was the programme manager for that. Q A Q A Is he still with you? No. Anybody else? I don't know any of the other
guys, don't bill the government for the Nisour Square shooting"? A I don't remember whether we billed
for that day for those guys or not. Q But do you remember whether you ever Do you remember even
employees that were on that, and then there would certainly be people in finance. Q A People in finance meaning Fred Roitz? Well, if it was a contract issue, and
weighed in on that issue? thinking about that? A Q
I don't remember. Did it ever cross your mind to not
Page 278 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mike Taylor being the finance and the CFO. Q A Q A Q A So Mike Taylor? Sure. Did you fire Shamus Flatly? No. When did he leave? About a year -- about a year ago, a
Page 280 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Why did he leave? He was going to focus on some naval That's his background. He's a 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 job. Q A And you hold that view today? I believe they were doing their job. the rule, the use of force bill for it? A No, I believe they were doing their
I think they abided
continuum, and, you know, I don't think all the evidence has come out on their behalf yet either, so, in my mind, they are still innocent until proven guilty. Q But setting aside the legal standard
year and two months. Q Do you know whether or not you ever
had any performance problems with him? A Q A Q A Virginia. Q A No, he was a fantastic guy. Do you still keep in touch with him? Probably once a quarter. Where does he live? I still think he's in Southern
of being innocent until proven guilty, as you sit here today do you personally believe that the Nisour Square shooters were acting properly? A they were not. Well, plenty of people would say that You know, I put that in context of
what happened to the guys operating there in the previous week. a Sunday. I think September 16th was
aviation programme. pilot.
So the previous Sunday or Monday we had
His family is legendary in the naval
a helicopter shot down. Q A Does that then -And then two days later an EFV goes
aviation community. (Court reporter interruption) His father is the only one to have landed a C-130 on an aircraft carrier. impressive. That's
off, takes the front end of the vehicle, puts two guys in the hospital. And then, two days after
that, another one was ambushed, which injured some
Pages 277 - 280

Page 281 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that way. COURT REPORTER: "Q. But setting a tragedy. guys. And that day starts with a suicide car bomb that blows up a venue where they're protecting a State Department, an AID official. The Iraqi guards flee the facility and, you know, the support team is called to secure one of the intersections so that their team can move through the traffic circle quickly, and... Any innocent loss of life is always We've lost forty-one men doing the work Page 283 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 all I'll say about his judgment. Q So am I correct in understanding that
your view that the other shooters at Nisour Square were acting properly is not influenced by Mr Ridgeway's factual proffer? A I haven't looked into each detail of In fact,
each shooter and what their claim is.
I think it's even been impossible for the Justice Department to determine in most cases which rounds were fired where. So, again, I wasn't their tactical commander on the ground. I wasn't there. I'm not
for the US government between Iraq and Afghanistan and, you know, more than 40 thousand missions for the State Department and no-one under our care was ever killed or injured so... MS BURKE: Move to strike. Can you read
going to second guess them. Q In the past, in interviews you gave
on television, you said that you were welcoming the FBI investigation because you view the FBI as a mutual party. Did the fact that the FBI investigated and indicted your men change your view on the FBI being a mutual party? A Well, one of my disappointments would
(To the court reporter) the question back to the witness? THE WITNESS:
I'll keep answering
aside the legal standard of being innocent until proven guilty, as you sit here today do you personally believe that the Nisour Square shooters were acting properly?"
be that -- I did read the ballistics reports and it seems they didn't go all the way to investigating the sources of all the spent bullets that they found in various vehicles in the intersection,
Page 282 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, could you answer that
Page 284 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 including whether they were Bulgarian, Romanian, Chinese, AK-47 rounds, because our men wouldn't have been carrying anything like those rounds. So it would have been, I think, useful for the defence to have that complete ballistics report done. was... It seems the ballistics analysis was done to prove the guilt of the Americans, not to just try to identify what happened there. Q So to make sure I'm understanding I don't know that it
question, please? A I wasn't there so I'm not going to
second guess them. Q A Q Mr Ridgeway was there, correct? I don't know. Could be.
You know that Mr Ridgeway was one of
the Nisour Square shooters? A Q I recognise the name, yes. And you know that Mr Ridgeway has put
into evidence his view of what happened that day? A Q A Q Is he the guy that pled? Yes, he is. Okay. And you understand that Mr Ridgeway,
your testimony, you believe that the FBI was not impartial but was slanting their ballistics report? A No. It's a very difficult place to
even investigate. You know, if you watch CSI, or some news show, if there's an alleged crime, the crime scene is secure within minutes, and I don't think the FBI could go back there for days or weeks, so trying to stitch that back together is a very difficult nut for them to crack. MS BURKE: we'll mark as Exhibit 15. I'm going to hand you what
who was one of the shooters, has said that he did not act properly, correct? A Q Could be, yes. And you don't have any reason to
question his judgment, do you? A No. I know that, when the juggernaut
of the justice system is hanging over your head, that could have clouded his judgment as to whether accepting that plea was a good idea or not. That's
Pages 281 - 284

Page 285 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Exhibit 15 marked for identification) BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, I'm handing you Page 287 1 2 3 4 5 You don't have any information in your possession that contradicts what Mr Ridgeway has said, do you? A a minute. Q A Take all the time you need, sir. (Witness reviewed the document) Well, perhaps I should read it 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for it. Q You remember Danielle asking the Are those documents something that were maintained in the normal course of business? A I think that was something that the It was a State
Mr Ridgeway's factual proffer in support of his guilty plea.
State Department maintained. Department TOC; Q
Tactical Operations Centre.
Did the company, did your companies
maintain the audio tapes of the men's conversations as they're out on missions? A Q operations? A We'd asked for video cameras from the I don't know. I don't think so.
Did your company videotape any of the
Okay, I've read the statement. Q And you don't have any information in
State Department for the WPPS mission back in '05. Q A Who's "we"? The company. Who asked? The programme
your possession that contradicts anything that Mr Ridgeway said in there, do you? A Well, it's a factual proffer written
management people. Q the time? A I think -- I remember Danielle asking Who was the programme management at
by the Justice Department and -Q I understand that, Mr Prince. What I'm asking you is whether you have in your possession any factual information that contradicts that? A I do not have any factual facts that
State Department, "Can we put videos on armoured vehicles?"? A vehicles?" "Can we have cameras on the
directly contradicts this statement, no. Q Have you interviewed any
Page 286 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eye-witnesses to the Nisour Square shooting? A Q No. Have you read any transcripts of the
Page 288 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 I remember reading radio transcripts 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that? A Q No. And your understanding from Miss Q Who did she ask that the State
Department, do you know? A Q The high protection people. Is there a name that you put with
accounts of the Iraqis that were there that day? A I read transcripts of the radio logs
of the guys going back in -Q Those aren't prepared by the Iraqi --
those are not the statements from the Iraqis, right? You're talking about what was provided at
Esposito is that the State Department said, "No, you cannot do it"? A No. The request continually fell on
the talk? A
dead ears, deaf ears. Q videotaping? A Yes, they said they did not want us Did they prohibit you from
from the talk about the guys calling in and talking about receiving incoming small arms fire. Q Right. And what I'm asking is a
different transcript. Have you ever read any transcripts of the interviews conducted by the FBI or others of the Iraqis that were in Nisour Square that day? A Q No. Did you ever ask the FBI for any of
to put video cameras in. Q Did you make steps to make sure that
your men weren't using hand-held video cameras? A Well, it was also a fireable offence
if the men were using any -- I mean, the scope they had on their rifle or the sight they had, all those things were very explicit what was permitted. So I don't know if a video camera may or may not have been a firing offence, but we would have preferred it to avoid exactly the kind of significant disagreement on the facts that happened
that information? A Q That wasn't my place to do. Now, you said that you read
transcripts on the -- you read the logs on the calls.
Pages 285 - 288

Page 289 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 them. at Nisour Square. Q At one time you reviewed all the Page 291
incident reports that your company had in its files, correct? A I don't know that I reviewed all of
I reviewed many of them. Q And did you ever form a belief that
some of your men were using excessive force? A Q A Did I ever form a belief? Yes. That's not something -- that was not
my role or responsibility. Q A So the -The use of force continuum were that If there was an
the use of force was reviewed.
incident, it was reviewed by the State Department, the RSO. There would be calls made back to them
while the vehicles were still on the way in, and the guys would be interviewed and de-briefed and each one of those would be, you know, post-evaluated by the government. Q And I guess the question is did you,
in all cases, agree with the post-evaluation conclusion of the government, of the ones that you reviewed?
Page 290 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 record. THE WITNESS: VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. This is the end of A Well, the ones I reviewed were months
Page 292
and months after the -- after the incident had happened, so I did this in preparation for Congressional testimony. So I didn't have the
individual guys to talk to and de-brief and get the operators' perspective. MS BURKE: We need to go off the
tape 3, volume 1 in the video deposition of Mr Prince. Going off the record at 3:38 p.m., as
indicated on the video screen. (A short recess at 3:38 p.m.) (Resumed at 3:48 p.m.) VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning
of tape 4 volume 1 in the video deposition of Mr Erik Prince. We're on the record now at 3:48
p.m., as indicated on the video screen. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, did you ever give $500,000
in cash to an Iraqi official? A Q No, I don't recall ever doing that. Did you ever distribute any amount of
cash to Iraqi officials?
Pages 289 - 292

Page 293 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A No. No, the regular auditors that Page 295 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 I don't know. Do you know whether they ever were 21 22 23 I don't know that they were but 24 25 the property to make an arrest some time for someone that was dealing out of their mobile home. Q Is that the only occasion that you
prepare the audited statements. Q And who are your accountants for that
purpose, for preparing audited statements? A Q BDO Seidman. And that's for you personally as well
recall law enforcement coming to your premises on drug issues? A Q A Yes. Now -Other than for extensive counter
as for your companies? A Q Yes. Who is the leader of that team that
police training that we provided to hundreds of officers. Q Thousands. But speaking of law enforcement
you use, your accounting team? A Q I don't know. Have you ever been interviewed by an
coming in an investigatory capacity to the Moyock premises, my understanding is that there was a raid by ATF at one point? A There was lots of audits. I don't
agent from Commerce Department? A Q I don't think so. Have you ever been interviewed by the
government at all in an investigatory capacity? A Q No. For security clearance is all.
know if you'd call it a raid or not. Q Was there an unannounced inspection
When did you begin drug testing the
of the weapons by ATF? A Sure, as there was. There was --
men that were being deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan? A Q drug tested? A
with all the licenses we had, that's the ATF's, I guess, it's their right. They can do that. Q And were you on the Moyock premises It's their premise.
at the time of the raid? A No, I don't believe so.
I would presume that they were since that was the
Page 294 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 policy that the company put in place. Q A Q A When did the policy get put in place? I don't know the exact start date. Why did the policy get put in place? I think it was increasingly becoming
Page 296 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Contracts we were participating or 10 11 Did you have a drug ring at your site 12 13 14 15 16 17 Not that I know of and, if we knew 18 19 20 Q And you don't recall that? You don't 21 22 23 24 I remember law enforcement coming to 25 ATF -Q How many visits -- how many visits by Q Were you aware that the ATF agents
were held back at the front gate? A I was not aware of that either.
I guess if it was a raid they should have driven through. So I guess is it a raid or is it a visit?
required for various -- various amounts of the contracts we were participating in. Q contracts? A pursuing. Q I'm sorry, in various what of the
I don't know. Q But do you have any knowledge about
the visit that I'm talking about? A There has been lots of visits by the
the ATF to your facility? A Oh, many over the years. I mean,
in Moyock that got busted? A Q Not to my knowledge, no. You don't recall -- you don't recall
we've been in business for customers since January of '98, so twelve years, and you'd think for firearms training that they'd visit it. Q per year? A Q I have no idea. You said a lot of times. How are you Did they visit more than two times
a set of people involved in dealing marijuana from your premises? A
about it, we would have, you know, ended it that day.
kept apprised of when ATF visits your facility? A I don't know. Sometimes I would hear about it. It was just a regular audit. It was generally in the context of, "We've passed our audit again and this license has
recall when it came to your attention that law enforcement was looking at your warehouse personnel? A
Pages 293 - 296

Page 297 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 been added", or "This is how the scope of the armoury programme has to grow to accommodate the needs of the various US government customers we have coming through", because each time a license was added they'd have to come out for a visit. If you're going to store explosives on a property, you have to have the right stand-off for your storage. Q Did you transport any explosives from Page 299 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 You're directing me to 16 17 18 19 20 Q I'm handing you again Exhibit 13, 21 22 23 24 25 people"? Q steroids? A I don't know if it was that many. I Did you fire 120 people for using extent of use of steroids by the men you were deploying to Iraq and to Afghanistan? A Q Say that again? Do you have any sense as to the
amount of steroids being used by the men you were deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan? A No, other than that it was illegal
and we tested for it and didn't tolerate it. Q Now, you fired quite a few people for
the United States to foreign countries? A Q A department. probably. Q I don't know. Who knows the answer to that? Probably someone in the logistics Someone in the logistics department, Todd Shaw. Todd Shaw?
using steroids, correct? A How do you define "quite a few
mean, guys could get fired for everything from bad attitude to borrowing a guy's bike without his permission, to having some illegal or unauthorised scope or sight on his rifle to drug testing. Q I understand that, Mr Prince, but my
talk to Todd Shaw for that? A He would know the people that had
been there in the department for that period of time.
question is really specific to the use of steroids. As you sit here today, do you know how many people you've fired for using steroids? A Q No. Have you ever looked into that issue
which is the indictment of your management team. (Same handed to the witness) Now, has there been -- you had mentioned that Mr Rubin had conducted an internal
Page 298 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 investigation into the allegations regarding Mr Howell. Did Mr Rubin also conduct an investigation into the veracity of the government's allegations in the indictment that you have before you as Exhibit 13? A I don't know that Mr Rubin has, but
Page 300
I would imagine the defence counsel for each of the guys is doing a very deep dive on the government's allegations. Q And obviously you understand those
defence counsel are representing the individuals, correct? A Q Right. Have you commissioned any type of
investigation so that you can be told what happened? A In discussions with the Justice
Department, Rubin said that these were individual charges and they were not directed at the company. Q So is the answer to my question, no,
you have not commissioned any type of investigation to find out what happened? A Q I guess that would be correct then. Do you have any sense as to the
Pages 297 - 300

Page 301 1 Page 303 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 before. Q A Q A Q I've no familiarity with that one. Do you know who Pam Boyd is? She used to work in medical. Was she the director of medical? I don't know. Would you consider her part of your
senior management? A Q No. Was there anyone from medical that
you would consider part of your senior management? A function so... Q Who did they have to go to get No. Medical was a small support
resources to do the drug testing? A Q I don't know. Why are you sure that the drug
testing was done? A State Department insisted on it. I don't know.
They might have even sent observers. Q
Do you know when the State Department
started to insist on it? A I believe it was insisted on from the It was probably -- I imagine as
very beginning.
part of the statement of work from the -- you know, from the beginning. From the solicitation.
Page 302 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were. A slightly different question. Do you know
Page 304
whether or not they even exist? A I have no idea of the dispensation of
those test results. Q Do you know whether they were kept in
the regular course of business? A Q A I don't know. Who can answer that question? Someone from medical or the WPPS And you've heard all
programme management side. those names before so... Q
How about medical, though?
Who is in
charge of medical now? A Let's see. The former army doc. I don't remember
I just met him a few weeks ago. his name. Q A Q
So this is somebody new? Within the last couple of months. And your former director of the
medical department, Ken Boyce, is being sued along with your companies? A Q Waggoner? A I don't know. You're not familiar with the The lawsuit brought by Heather Waggoner? That's the one you've mentioned
Pages 301 - 304

Page 305 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, are you aware of an into the narcotics issue in Burkina Faso? Your Page 307 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q -- you know. So please just answer
company's involvement in Burkina Faso and the diversion of narcotics, fentanyl lollypops? MR BEIZER: Can I have a proffer as
the questions I ask and save the -A map so... Q Yes, and I still have more to go, and You've had 5 hours going all over the
to how this relates to the False Claims Act? MS BURKE: One of the issues in the
I'd just ask you not to put the speeches on at this point? A It was in the context of why I was
False Claims Act is the laxity with which they dealt with substances that control the drugs and so forth, and so this is another example. MR BEIZER: Okay. Could you
talking about medical support in Burkina Faso because it saved an American soldier's life. Q But my brief question had to do with That was the
rephrase -- restate the question then, I'm sorry? MS BURKE: Sure.
drug diversion in Burkina Faso, okay? question, sir.
And here is my next question. Do you admit that your companies hid
incident involving your company's personnel in Burkina Faso involving the diversion of narcotics? A No, I'm not aware of that. I am
weapons in pallets of dog food? A I don't know that we hid weapons in I don't know that we'd ever And
pallets of dog food.
aware we provided a bunch of extra medical training to a number of doctors from Burkina Faso. We flew
send an entire pallet of dog food over. certainly we -- I'm sure we -Q A Is that -Well, let me explain.
them over to the States for, basically, trauma training because -- this was probably late spring of '07, no '08. We'd just put a couple of aircraft
I'm sure we
shipped many pallets of stuff over to Iraq, some of which could have contained weapons, some of which could have contained dog food. Does it make sense
into Africa and we were supporting US special operations forces, and a storm came up, damaged the aircraft, a Tornado touched down. It flipped the
to put the weapons boxes on the inside of the
Page 306 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tents that the SF guys were in and it killed one of them, put two broken limbs, a broken spine and pelvis. bleeding. Medivac. The other guy had all kinds of internal That was the guy that really needed the And we ended up flying another aircraft It landed on a single set of And our medic -- our medic
Page 308 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 And the reason this ties back to 9 10 11 12 13 Move to strike after his 14 15 16 Mr Prince, I understand why you want 17 18 19 20 21 22 As you can tell, I'm quite conscious 23 24 25 pallets so that the dog food is not apparently visible for a corrupt customs official to steel the weapons? Yes, I think that makes sense. So I don't know that we intentionally hid them or smuggled them in building a pallet, but it certainly could have been co-mingled. certainly no prohibitions to doing that. Q Did any of your weapons get stolen by There's
in long ways.
headlights at night. worked him.
corrupt customs officials? A Weapons were stolen by corrupt
medical is because our medic worked him for 36 hours, including doing an emergency splenectomy on him, and there wasn't any medical care really available in Burkina Faso. MS BURKE:
officials, by insurgents after an attack on the guys if there were dead bodies. Certainly the
weapons belonging to our guys in Falluja were taken from the chartered Mi8 that were shot down. those guys' weapons were taken. All
answer, no, he's not aware of the drug diversion. BY MS BURKE: Q
So we had weapons
taken off of our dead and wounded many times. Q So these weapons that go missing,
to say the other things that your company has done. And that's fine. of time. It's just I have a limited amount
what kind of paper trail is there on these weapons that go missing? A trail is. procedure. Q A Q But you're not familiar with it? No. Who at the company would you direct I'm not familiar with what that paper I'm sure there is some kind of reporting
You'll have your chance to put on the
affirmative story about your company at a later date.
on time so I'm just trying to A Hey.
--
Pages 305 - 308

Page 309 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Jackson? A Q by sight? A Q A I would recognise him if I saw him. Did you ever go to his cubicle? It's entirely possible. I walked I know of him. Do you know him? Would you know him me to to understand how the loss of weapons was tracked? A I think I referred to our ATF Page 311 1 2 3 4 5 6 When you ask anybody 7 8 9 Dave Jackson? Do you know Mr Dave 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did all of your top management
receive a bonus along the way? A I don't know that they all did, but
compliance guy, and I don't know his name. MS BURKE: that you can get for me? THE WITNESS. Counsel, is that something
they often did. Q Was it a bonus of a regular part of
their compensation package? A Q Yes. And what was the -- was there --
else from the company, they'll probably know. BY MS BURKE: Q
I know we had talked before that your executive compensation formula changed at a point in time that led to these severance agreements, right? A Q Yes. At that point in time, did the
structure of ratio base to bonus change? A I don't know. I don't remember the
detail now for that. Q And Mr Richer, did he get one of
around and visited many of the boys. Q Did you ever return any money to the
these severance agreements? A put in place. Q A No, I think he left before those were I think. I don't know.
government as on overpayment that had been self-identified by the company? A Q A Q I don't know. Mike Taylor would know that? Probably, yes. Is he the best one to go to on that?
When did he leave? I think he left in early '08, but I'm not sure when what was.
that's a guess again. Q A
Did you fire him? No.
Page 310 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the way. ahead. you? A Q Yes. What role did Rob Ricker play for
Page 312
Is that how you say it, Ricker? A Q A Richer. Richer. After he retired from CIA, he came
and ran TIS, which is a private sector open source intelligence business, primarily supporting commercial customers. Q Did he have any involvement in WPPS
or Homeloan Security contracts? A Q A No. Did you ever give him a bonus? Well, DHS in the sense that TIS was
then running some kind of a threat watch matrix, or something, and it was also a website for first responders to evaluate different equipment and tactics. Q A function, yes. Q Mike Rush? I'm sorry, I skipped That was the only tie to DHS for that. Did he do that mirror image training? That was part of the TIS/TRC
Did you ever give Mr Richer a bonus? A I'm sure he received bonuses along
Pages 309 - 312

Page 313 Page 315
Page 314 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 after. raise with you on your phone calls with him who he was going to terminate? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Could be face-to-face. BY MS BURKE: Q Let me ask it differently. You've testified about a course of dealing with Mr Jackson in which he kept you informed of the goings on in the company. Would terminations of middle management be the type of thing that he would bring to your attention before it happened? A It could be before. It could be Objection. Vague.
Page 316
Could be by phone.
It depends what my schedule or his schedule
are, the level of connectivity was. Q A department. Q A Q companies? A Q I think so. Dana Clemons? Anything else? He was a trainer, yes. Is that the only job he held with the What did Gary Clifton do for you? I think he worked in the training
Pages 313 - 316

Page 317 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 issues. Q A Did he get fired? I think he is not deployable because Page 319 1 2 3 4 5 I just 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 When you say you don't know if the 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR BEIZER: Again, I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer to the extent the answer would reveal communications with counsel on that topic. (To the witness) anything else other than that. THE WITNESS: All I know about Melan But you can answer
he's got to have surgery. Q A So did he get fired? I don't know if he got fired.
read that he had to have surgery because he blew out a shoulder. Q A He's a very big guy.
Davis is what I read in her complaint so... BY MS BURKE: Q And you see in her declaration that
Is he back in the United States? I don't know. I don't know where
he's getting the surgery done. Q A Q What has he done for the company? He's served in a logistics function. Have you ever investigated his
she said she travelled with Amman -- with a group of other people and created phoney documents in order to obscure the fact that there was no proper record-keeping from the State Department. As you sit here today, do you actually know any facts that contradict that account? A All I would say is that fraud --
conduct in any way? A I haven't. status is. Q I don't know if the company has. And I don't know what his -- what that
necessary for fraud is concealment, and I don't believe there was concealment of this kind of stuff from the government. Q When you say "concealment of this
company has, is it possible that there was an investigation done of company personnel that you weren't made aware of? A There could be investigations into
kind of stuff", you think that the State Department was informed that there was an after-the-fact creation of records?
any number of disputes between employees that I'm not aware of, and there's a lot of people and a lot
Page 318 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of moving parts so... Q Has there been any investigation into
Page 320 1 2 3 4 Objection. I'm going to 5 6 7 8 (To the witness) But you can answer 9 10 11 12 13 What's the basis for that confidence 14 15 Because the procedures are in place 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 foundation. A Q I don't know about that. And you certainly didn't tell the
the billing fraud that's alleged in the lawsuit that brings us here today? MR BEIZER:
State Department about that? A as possible. Q The company Carlson Wagonlit, are you I had as few conversations with them
instruct the witness not to answer to the extent it would reveal any conversations with counsel about that subject.
familiar with that? A Q It's a travel agency. And does it have any corporate
to the extent that it doesn't. THE WITNESS: is any billing fraud. BY MS BURKE: Q you have? A I don't believe there
relationship with your companies? A Q A Q A Q I don't know. Did you ever buy that travel agency? That's a big company. I know, sir. No. You have a lot of money, my
to account for the men and for their movements and the logistics, and there is no billing fraud. don't you have a lot of basis for this case. Q What information do you have to I
understanding is. A Q A Q Not much. No, not enough to do that.
So you don't own Carlson Wagonlit? No. Are you aware that people in your
contradict Milan Davis's testimony that she travelled to Amman on phoneyed up documents? A So you're saying Melan Davis
employ were running off invoices as if they had come from Carlson Wagonlit when they had not? MR BEIZER: Objection. No
committed fraud? Q Yes.
Pages 317 - 320

Page 321 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -THE WITNESS: I have no idea as to THE WITNESS: our own travel agency. BY MS BURKE: Q I understand that. But were you I'm aware that we had Page 323 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Objection, again, to the 8 9 10 11 12 So you don't know one way or the 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 You understand, Mr Prince, that the The issue is 24 25 well. Q A Q A Greystone. Q A Q He works with Chris Burgess? I think so. Other than Chris Burgess, do you talk Did he get fired? No. Is he still with you? I think so. I think he works at know. that? A I don't know who would know. I don't sure. Q A Q Did you fire him? I don't know. Gary Jackson would know the answer to A I think he was in finance but I'm not
aware that the paperwork was made to look as if it was coming from Carlson Wagonlit rather than your own travel agency? MR BEIZER:
It might be Mike Taylor. Q What about Patrick Martin? What role
did he play at your companies? A I think he's in a finance role as
the status of travel agent paperwork. BY MS BURKE: Q
other, as you sit here today, whether the allegations made that the paperwork was phoneyed up to look like it was an outside party, you just don't have any facts that shed any light on the truth or the falsity of that allegation? A Well, other than that I know we
weren't flying our own people from New York or the United States to Jordan or to anywhere else, so there had to be a real plane ticket in there somewhere. Q
directly to anybody over there at Greystone? A Q A No. What's Greystone's business? They do some aviation support, mostly
issue is not the real plane ticket.
pilots and mechanics, and they provide static guard
Page 322 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 what the document said about how much that plane ticket cost, right? A I guess. I'm not sure of the
Page 324 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 (To the witness) To the extent that 18 19 20 21 22 23 What role did Mike Garton play at 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince? A He still works for the company, yes. Does he still work for you, name? THE WITNESS: S-i-e-r-a-w-s-k-i. services using third country nationals. Q A Anything else? A little bit of NGO PSD work, but
intracacies of your claim. Q But I just want to be clear for the
very little now. Q Is Carol Bruce the wife of a good
record that, regardless of how you may show up at trial, whatever knowledge you may gain at that point, right now, as we sit here today, you don't really know any facts that can lead you one way or the other as to whether people in your employ were phoneying up documents to make it look as if Carlson Wagonlit had bought tickets rather than your own travel agency, correct? MR BEIZER: Again, instruct the
friend of yours? A Carol worked in travel and I think So certainly
I met her husband one time, if that. not a close friend at all. Q A Q A capacity. Q
And is Carol still with the company? I think so. What's she doing now? I think she's still in a travel
witness not to answer to the extent that the answer may reveal communications with counsel on this subject.
What about Jim Sierawski?
Is he
still with you? A Q Sierawski. Sierawski, excuse me. MR BEIZER: How do you spell that
it does not, you may answer the question. THE WITNESS: I am no expert as to
the travel habits of people in the company or the invoicing procedures. BY MS BURKE: Q
your companies?
Pages 321 - 324

Page 325 Page 327 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 track. he left? A He did, I think, training and some I think he worked more in the A Q I think so. What did he do for the company before
PSD-type stuff. Greystone area. Q
What about Marty Strong?
What did he
do for the company? A He did some WPPS work and he did some
PR and external communications. Q A Steve Wells? He was in a training operations
support kind of stuff. Q A Q A Q A Still with the company? No. Fired? No. Andy Walsh? He did -- I think he worked at the He did
That was the last place I saw him.
some kind of training role. Q A Q A Is he still with the company? I don't think so. Was he fired? No.
Page 326
Page 328
Pages 325 - 328

Page 329 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A And who -Been a complaint. He was warned. Page 331 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Do you recognise the name Billy
Connors as a State Department person? A Q A Q No. The name has no meaning to you? No. Mr Prince, who was responsible for
Complaint again and he was let go. Q What steps did you take -- what steps
did your company take to prevent sexual harassment overseas? Let me ask it differently. What steps did your companies take to enforce the anti-fraternization rule to stop the use of prostitutes in the man camp overseas? A I don't know that there was
getting Andrew Moonen out of the country after he killed the Iraqi? A After that incident occurred, he was
in -- Moonen was in the Air Force Security Police's custody and they did their investigation. And,
prostitution going on anywhere, so I guess I dispute that claim the way you ask that question. Q The question really goes to your
after he was released from their investigation, we asked the RSO what the status or dispensation of that guy should be, and they said he should be fired and he should leave the country. So he was,
company's activities. Did your company take any steps to prevent prostitution in the man camp? A visitors. Yes. There was no -- no female
at the direction of the State Department, provided a ticket, driven to the airport and put on an airplane out of there. Q guidance? A Q A Q A And the RSO, they gave you that What was his name? The RSO that was there at the time. Is that -There's only one RSO, so... Was that Ferris? There's no guy named Ferris.
I mean, there were some husband and wife
couples deployed, but there was no external visitors, to my knowledge. strict badging policy. Q And that was something that was There was a pretty
closely enforced, the badging policy? A I think so. I think that was even --
that was enforced by another -- actually another
Page 330 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Alexander? A Q No. Do you recall a man named Billy Do you recognise the name Scott spell that? MS BURKE: K-r-o-s-k. Krosk? A Q No. Do you recognise -MR BEIZER: Excuse me, how do you do that? A No, no, no, no. There was -- that vendor's guards was responsible for that. Q A Q What vendor was responsible for that? I'm not sure. It wasn't our guys.
Page 332 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Do you recognise the name Nate 9 10 No. Do you recognise the name Steve 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it John Frese? A It could have been Frese. There's only one RSO. If he was There's a Q A Q Do you recall the name of the RSO? No. Do you recall that there was more
Do you know the company you hired to
than one RSO in Baghdad that you dealt with over time? Frese. Excuse me. John Frese. Was
contract was managed by another vendor, not our company at all. Q Eggleston? A Q Okay.
the senior RSO.
bunch of deputies.
They might come from the RSO
office, but there is one RSO and it's his call to make. And, yes, they rotated that position once a
year, or a year-and-a-half or something. Q And that was going to be my question.
Other than John Frese, do you know who the actual RSO was in Baghdad during the time that you did business there? A Q I don't remember all the names. Do you remember any of the names
other than Frese? A Q No. Would you have remembered his name if
I hadn't provided it to you? A He was a -- yes, I probably would
Connors who used to work for you? A No.
have remembered him, Frese, in Dutch.
Pages 329 - 332

Page 333 Page 335
Page 334 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 role. Q A Q A Q A Q A armoury, yes. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Still does? I think so. Carol Bruce? Carol Bruce? I don't know her. Was he fired? I don't think so. Jim Carey, C-a-r-e-y? I don't know him. Rick Bulak, B-u-l-a-k? I don't know him. Bill Kirkland? Bill Kirkland I think works in the business. Q When you say security consulting
Page 336
role, that's outside of WPPS? A Q A Correct. Okay. Terry Buchanan?
I think he worked in the training
Elizabeth Merritt? HR Director. Still? Yes. M-e-r-r-i-t-t? Is that right,
Pages 333 - 336

Page 337 Page 339 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it with. Q Security? A Q No. We get paid to do work. Didn't you get paid from Homeland Q Was it something that the company had
bought for the government contract? A It was something that the company
bought as part of the equipment they needed to conduct the operations down there. Needed office
space, portable office space, I guess. Q So isn't that then billed to the
government as overhead? A contract. I don't think that was part of the There's lots of times we buy equipment
to conduct our missions. Q When you were given this as a gift,
did you take any steps to make sure that it was something that had been purchased with company money as opposed to government money? A There was no government money to buy
Did you get an overhead component on
that Homeland Security contract? A Q A I don't know. And is that a Mike Taylor question? Probably.
Page 338 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 company, yes. Q When you say given to you by the
Page 340
company, the company bought an RV and gave it to you? A it to me. Q You say the company had an RV. Were The company had an RV and they gave
these the trailers that were bought for the Homeland security contract? A It was probably one of the vehicles Needed something mobile.
bought under that effort. Q
And were these -- were these
capitalised or expensed? A Q I have no idea. And who was -- who's the person
I should ask that person to? A Q A Q Finance. Taylor? Yes. So how did this come about? You He said
were, like, given the RV by Mr Jackson? "Merry Christmas"? A Q A
It was at the Christmas party. Do you still have the RV? No.
Pages 337 - 340

Page 341 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Were you ever briefed by any of your Page 343 1 2 3 A Q No. No-one ever brought that to your 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A Maybe. I don't remember who. 24 25 conversation. BY MS BURKE: Q Was Mr Schmitz serving as counsel to to mine. Q Did Mr Schmitz brief you on things Q Did you ever get briefed verbally or
employees on a sex club that was going on in your company?
in writing by Schmitz? A Q I don't remember. What other -- what other internal
investigations did Mr Schmitz conduct? A I don't know. I mean, most of his
personal attention? A You know, I heard allegations of
time was spent on the Nordan case, which was the Falluja lawsuit, and Presidential Airways so... Q Did you ever meet with Mr Schmitz
employees' activities on weekends, not on company time, not on company property. Q And who did you hear those
without Mr Jackson present? A Of course. His office was right next
allegations from? A Gary mentioned it to me that there
was a problem, and just make sure it didn't affect the good order and discipline of the organisation during the work week. Q A Q What did Gary tell you? I don't remember all the detail. Is it something that had begun to
that were going on down south in Moyock? MR BEIZER: witness not to answer. I'm going to instruct the Mr Schmitz was counsel to
the company, and that would be a privileged conversation. THE WITNESS: A privileged
impact the work hours of people? A Q I don't think so. Other than Gary Jackson, did anyone
else ever bring this to your attention as a concern?
the company his entire tenure there? A Q Serving as my counsel. Serving as your personal counsel?
I mean, it didn't come up a lot.
Page 342 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of it. Q And this wasn't something -- I'm Q But you cannot remember who brought
Page 344 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Perhaps, yes. That's all I remember 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q A And did Schmitz prepare a report? I don't know. 24 25 a break. VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record A Q companies? A He -- no, the company had a general Yes. Did he also serve as counsel to the
it to your attention but you could still remember that somebody did. Do you have some kind of recall that someone other than Gary Jackson brought this to your attention? A Q No. So you remember that Gary Jackson did
counsel, but he served as, kind of, over our general counsel trying to manage the lawsuit process. Q Now, was Gary Jackson free to
and you remember that nobody else did? A Q Correct. So if I speak to Gary Jackson and he
commission Mr Schmitz to look into things that he was interested in having looked into, or did that have to come by you first? A information. They had enough of a free flow of I'm sure that if Gary called and
recalls, then that's the sum total of what you know on that topic? A
asked for help Joe would respond. MS BURKE: we'll mark as Exhibit 16. Actually, we're going to take I'm going to hand you what
sorry, let me ask it a different way. Did Gary Jackson ask Joe Schmitz to look at this issue? A Yes, that probably would have been a to have an
at 4:48 p.m., as indicated on the video screen. (A short recess at 4:48 p.m.) (Resumed at 4:58 p.m.) (Exhibit 16 marked for identification) VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record at
remedial process for Gary to do that;
outsider come in and interview people and check it out.
4:58 p.m., as indicated on the video screen.
Pages 341 - 344

Page 345 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, you understand you're Page 347 1 2 3 4 I'm going to hand you what 5 6 7 You might want to put a It's all loose. 8 9 10 Have you had an opportunity to review 11 12 Yes, briefly. And is there -- that document is the 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 The only thing I would add to it is When they talk about a bad act being 23 24 25 "gratuitous"? BY MS BURKE: Q A Unnecessary. When you have to do thousands of word "such". THE WITNESS: Yes, or what defines warn them off is, I don't know, perspective from people that go to dangerous places. preferred than having to open fire. Q Mr Prince, one of the issues is It's certainly
still under oath? A Yes. MS BURKE:
whether or not there was gratuitous use of force and gratuitous use of mechanisms such as throwing the water bottles and the oranges and so forth. And the question to you is whether you have any knowledge as to whether any of your men engaged in such gratuitous use of force? MR BEIZER: Again, objection to the
has been marked as Exhibit 16 and ask you to take a look at that. THE WITNESS:
paperclip or something on this. BY MS BURKE: Q that, sir? A Q
Department of Justice compilation of other bad acts bad acts by the Nisour Square shooters? A Q Alleged bad acts. And that was my question, Mr Prince.
missions a year and the State Department makes you run the same routes every day to and from the Ministry where the bad guys can sit up and wait for you, and the bad guys know what your vehicles are because you've been running suburbans or some kind of big weight armoured vehicle, it's a very, very difficult spot to put people in fearing for their lives.
As you sit here today, do you actually have any information, any factual information that contradicts what the Department of Justice put in that document? A perspective.
considered throwing frozen oranges or frozen water
Page 346 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 allegation. BY MS BURKE: Q contradict it? A Well, these prosecutors, sitting in But do you have anything to "finding". bottles at unarmed civilians, vehicles, wagons, bicycles, allegedly without justification, that is certainly part of the use of force continuum that was still constantly shifting as a way to try to warn off incoming potential threat vehicles. Q But do you have any information to
Page 348 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q So from your testimony I take it it's
a fair statement that you certainly never took any steps to try to learn whether or not your men were using excessive force? A of engagement. engagement. The State Department sets the rules They enforce the rules of
contradict their finding that what those particular men were doing actually lacked justification, and was just mere harassment of the civilians? MR BEIZER: Objection to the word
They understand far better than I do They
-- the RSO, when I say State Department.
certainly set those rules back in the States. The RSO that are personnel deployed for and become under their operational control, that RSO office sets the tempo of that use of force continuum because they understand from Fernantel and past attacks where the most likely places and the most likely methods are to be attacked. I can't second guess that from the comfort of my home back in Virginia. Q So when you have a decision by State
This is just an allegation. THE WITNESS: These -Yes, it's an
the comfort of Washington DC or somewhere else, not when it's 125 degrees Farenheit in Baghdad and you're sitting on top of an armoured vehicle, and there's a car coming at you fast and you're not sure if it's somebody on their way back from a grocery store or it's a suicide bomber trying to kill you and your friends, throwing a water bottle, orange, or whatever you throw at them to try to
Department agents made that your men use excessive force, you wouldn't second guess that, right? A Well, we hire people to the contract
with the right experience, the right background, the vetting, the psychological evaluations, the medical, dental and PT tests, and the training and the scenarios that they're put through, and we
Pages 345 - 348

Page 349 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there. so... Q testimony. So now I'm not understanding your Is it your testimony that no-one can deploy them to the State Department. Q I'm sorry, Mr Prince, I'm not sure Page 351 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A They are the customer. They get to 9 10 And so if the State 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 people in dangerous places are easy to second guess from the comfort of your home, not even -- and they're even easier to second guess from the comfort of an air conditioned office in a Green Zone so... BY MS BURKE: Q understanding. So, again, just to make o sure I'm So your view is that there is no
you heard my question. My question was whether you are comfortable testifying that, if State Department agents found that your men had engaged in excessive force, then you would defer to that, is that correct?
permissible way in which to scrutinise -A No. The State Department gets to
decide that in the end. Q All right.
decide who continues working for them or not, and they did that often. If they didn't like a guy
Department personnel testify that the Nisour Square shooters used excessive force, you would defer to that judgment, and you would agree that they used excessive force? A Again, they weren't -- they weren't
because of his attitude or his demeanour with the protectees or whatever, they said, "Please send that guy home", so... Q And you would agree with me that if
They weren't within a few miles of there
you were providing men who were under the influence of steroids while they were on duty, that that was not providing the State Department what they had contracted for, right? A We are providing people that were
ever judge who wasn't on site? A I don't know. It depends on the
screened and approved to the State Department standards. Their biles were reviewed and approved Their training overseen.
experience level of the people involved. I would also say that State Department had a real hard time filling its deputy
by the State Department.
There were rules that were briefed to the men and
Page 350 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 again. THE WITNESS: I said I'm not going to Objection. (To the witness) You can answer RSO billets and were sending a lot of guys that had -- that were right out of college with hardly any tactical or military law enforcement experience. Q So am I to take it from that
Page 352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q And my question to you is whether or And, from your 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Decisions made as put second by 25 routinely screened. Q A And just to make sure that -And if someone doesn't meet that Fired. Simple. You
standard, they're released. know, two choices; Q
testimony that you're not comfortable putting the decision as to whether excessive force was used in the hands of the State Department? You would not
window or aisle.
Yes, Mr Prince, but my question is And that is just I want to
slightly different.
necessarily agree that they were correct in making their judgment that your men used excessive force? A Well, contractually they ultimately
make sure that you agree with the statement I'm making which is that, in those instances when your companies provided to the State Department someone whose judgment was altered by steroids, you would agree that that was a mistake and that the provision of that person was not of value to the State Department? A How do you -- I mean, how does one
decide there that they're the vendor they hire or not.
not you defer to that assessment.
testimony previously, it sounds as if your own view is that no-one should be permitted to second guess the men who go and do this work in dangerous zones? MR BEIZER: Asked and answered.
verify whether steroids have any kind of effect on that person's demeanour? a medical question. expert. I don't know. That's
I'm certainly no medical
I don't know if steroids affected their
demeanour other than their body mass. Q So is it your position that providing
the State Department with an armed man on steroids is providing the State Department with something of value? A I didn't say that at all.
second guess from the comfort of my home back in Virginia.
Pages 349 - 352

Page 353 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q testimony is? A You're saying that if you assume I'm trying to understand what your Page 355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 And -And as a company we didn't -- we 8 9 10 11 12 And the State Department set the rule 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 State 23 24 25 -A I'm not qualified to answer medically the influence of steroids, you were providing the State Department with something they did not want and that was worthless? A Under the influence of alcohol -MR BEIZER: legal conclusion. (To the witness) THE WITNESS: MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: You can answer. Objection. Calls for a
someone is on steroids that their mind altered or different. I don't know that to be the case. The
State Department gets to set the rules and we enforce them. Q A
I can answer? You can answer. Yes. I'm very
didn't, you know, for any of the other contracts even, we screened for it and don't permit that activity. Q
confident none of the guys were under the influence of alcohol. It's a pretty obvious state of mind if They're not on duty
they're out doing a mission. 24 hours a day certainly. BY MS BURKE: Q
that they did not want people that were on steroids working for them, right? A Q Yes. And the State Department set the rule
Mr Prince, it's -- I'm not asking you
that they did not want people that were drinking working for them, right? A Q Correct. And the State Department set the rule
whether a guy that has taken steroids or tested, or took them two weeks ago, if any of it remains in his system and it pops in a drug test, that that guy is any less valuable as a guard or as a human being, so I'm not qualified to answer that. Q So you draw a distinction between the
that they did not want -A Well, let me caveat that.
Department people drink all the time. Q That's --
alcohol use and the steroid use?
Page 354 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q On a nightly and weekly basis. It's not really a question of whether
Page 356 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, certainly most governments in
the world permit people to drive vehicles but not under the influence of alcohol because it's directly -- and certainly the FAA has even tighter rules. Q Mr Prince, I'm asking you, are you
the State Department people are drinking, though. The question is what did the State Department want in the armed guards that they were hiring to protect them, right? A Right. I just want to clarify that
drawing a distinction between your view of the value of services provided to the State Department between providing men who are under the influence of alcohol versus men who were under the influence of steroids? A I'm saying I'm not medically
the State Department is not a dry organisation. And don't let them strike that from the record. Q So you would agree with me then,
Mr Prince, that to the extent that your companies provided men who were under the influence of steroids or alcohol, you were not providing the State Department what they had paid for, right? A They -- we provided someone with the
qualified to make that judgment whether that guy adds any less value or not. Q So, therefore, you're drawing a
resumi background, with the credentials, the training, all the rest. rules, they get fired. Q I understand that, Mr Prince, and If someone breaks the
distinguish between those under the influence of alcohol, that you are willing to admit that those people are -- providing them to the government is not of any value to the government, correct? A Well, certainly if a guy was
you've testified to that effect, but what I need is an answer to my particular question, which is whether or not you agree with me that, in those instances when somebody broke the rules and it was not known to you and you provided them to the State Department under the influence of alcohol, under
intoxicated to the point that he couldn't drive a vehicle, that would certainly -- you could make that case, but even if -Q A And you would agree with that? But even the FAA says if a guy had a
Pages 353 - 356

Page 357 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 speculation. (To the witness) THE WITNESS: You can answer. A Q A Q drink 8 hours before, 8 hours and 1 minute from that time he could fly an aeroplane again so... Q What I'm trying to get at is the Page 359 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Okay. You had talked about the fact
that you're not comfortable testifying that somebody on steroids is necessarily showing poor judgment, right? You say you don't have medical
difference in your testimony between the steroid use and the alcohol use. The State Department -I'm saying as a human being -Let me finish, please. As a human -Let me finish, please. The State Department had requested that you provide steroid-free men, correct? A That's part of the quote, part of the
background, you're not comfortable testifying to that? A Q Correct. But you know that the State
Department had made their own judgment call that that's all they wanted, was people who weren't on steroids? A Q Evidently so. And did you have trouble finding
requirement, and we tested to the best of, you know, human possibility to do so. Q And you would agree with me that,
people in this field that weren't on steroids? A I can't speak to that as well. There
was a lot of people that wanted to sign up to do the job and kept the pipeline full. There was a
from the State Department's point of view, that's what they wanted, steroid-free men, right? MR BEIZER: Objection. Calls for
lot of people that wanted to do the job and there was a pipeline full of people to do it. Q And is -- when you say "the pipeline
full of people"? A Yes, I would contrast that, you know,
That, among many other
attributes, was what their pursuit of the ideal person was.
we kept the manning at about 99-plus per cent full, and Triple Canopy, our competitor that's taken over, is still running 35 to 40 per cent short on
Page 358 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 efforts. Q Didn't you agree to provide them only BY MS BURKE: Q And your company signed a contract
Page 360 1 2 3 4 A We signed a contract to do our best 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 No, Mr Prince. Just like a broken 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 speculation. THE WITNESS: Well, actually, they manning for the same job. Q So they are having more difficulty
and promised to give them those ideal people, right?
than you had in providing men that met the criteria? A Logistically, it's hard to do it with
the training facility and the processing of all those things. lot. Q Could it be that they are holding Having it in one location helps a
people that had met the criteria they set forth? A We employ human beings, not machines.
Even a turbine engine has three -- three or four moving parts and turbine engines break. So, of
themselves to a higher standard on compliance on the contract than you did? MR BEIZER: Objection. Calls for
course, you're saying, by your premise, that we would hire -- that there would be one thousand people free of human error, that would never make any mistakes and never have any need for really any of these controls because they would never make any mistakes. Q
had tried to hire every person that we had working there, and they have continued to try to hire them, and our guys really don't want to work for them so... BY MS BURKE: Q What percentage of your people
turbine engine, the question is whether you had to pay for it if it's broken. So am I correct, Mr Prince, that what you promised to bill the government for was providing these defect-free men, right? A I don't know the details of what we
refused to work for Triple Canopy? A Q No idea. What was the basis for your statement
that "a lot of our guys don't want to work for them" then?
promised to bill for.
Pages 357 - 360

Page 361 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Because I've run into them. I run Page 363
into them at an airport.
I run into them somewhere
else and they say, "Hey I really appreciated working for you and I wish I could again soon". Q A Q Okay, so you've some anecdotal -Anecdotal. What type of documents did the State
Department send the company when they were concerned about excessive use of force? A Q A Kind of documents? Yes. It could be everything from -- well,
it's not a document, but some kind of meeting with the RSO staff, or it could be an e-mail sent. I'm
not really sure what that reporting procedure was, but I would -- you know, I would imagine there was regular meetings between the company's in-country staff and the RSO staff to coordinate those very issues. Q Did you take any steps yourself to
make sure that the men in-country were actually reporting all of the incidents of force, use of force? A Each of the guys are briefed
individually, you know, together, and I don't know
Page 362 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 if there was other individual sign-ups or individual documentation. I don't know to that
Page 364 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I don't know. Do you know whether or not your men 8 9 10 11 A I would imagine they took an area 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q And so that did, in fact, happen? I 22 23 24 25 staff? A Q A the name. Q Do you recall an instance when Bill I don't know. Did you know at the time? She told me the name. It's slipped went to. Q person? A Q Yes. And she's now working on a Q Were you present when you heard the
men referring to Iraqis as ragheads and towelheads? A Q A Q No. You never heard that at all? No. Anne Tyrell used to be your PR
extent, but it's something to ask the in-country management or the WPPS programme managers. Q Did the briefings, their frequency
and their content change over the course of the WPPS contract? A Q
went on what are called fam runs, familiarisation runs?
Congressional staff? A I think she -- yes, that's who she I don't know what she's doing now. Who did she go work for? Whose
familiarisation route for guys that were new into the country and would drive the routes that they needed to be familiar with. Q A So you're aware that that happened? That would be part of the in-country You don't
indoctrination for new guys coming in.
want somebody who's never been there before to get lost in Baghdad. lost. It's a dangerous place to be
Mathews sent around an e-mail encouraging political activity on the part of the employees? A Q No. Regarding a man running for Congress
just want to pin that down. A I don't know, but it would not be --
who had made some statements against the mercenary industry?
I don't know that to be a fact, but I would imagine
Pages 361 - 364

Page 365 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q I don't remember that. Now, the Department of Justice has Page 367 1 2 3 4 5 6 Do you have any information that contradicts that list? A Q No. Would you agree with me that Andrew 7 8 9 10 11 12 I do know that the 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for me. A Q A Q A I don't remember that. You don't remember that? (No response) Is that correct? I don't remember the claim being that That he'd been drinking, yes.
identified the following weaponry in the vehicles at Nisour Square; SR-25 sniper rifles, M4 assault
rifles, M-240 machine guns, grenade launches and grenades.
he was intoxicated. Q
Are you testifying that his use of
force was appropriate? And sorry, so the record is clear, are you testifying, Mr Prince, that Mr Moonen's use of force was an appropriate use of force. A Q A Was an appropriate use? Yes. Again, I don't know. That's not up I'm
Moonen's killing of the Iraqi guard was an excessive use of force? A I don't know.
guard that he got into that altercation with was looking for the Vice President of Iraq, and I know for a fact that within the last six or eight months that there was a bunch of a guards from Adel Abdul-Mahdi's house that were caught right after they robbed the National Bank of Iraq. midday robbery. So, with that perspective on it, yes, he probably put himself in a spot he shouldn't have been in, but, again, perspective on the guards -the guards that would have been that guy's colleagues that was shot, did rob the National Bank An armed
I'm not the investigating officer.
not the -- I wasn't there. Q A fired for it. Q A a company. Q Well, you're sitting here today Okay. But -But in your role as employer -He violated company policy and he was
And that's all we can do as
testifying as the owner of these companies. In your role as the owner of these
Page 366 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 alcohol. Q effect? A established. Q The State Department didn't brief you I don't know that that was ever of Iraq. Q shot him? A Q I don't know. You don't have information to that But wasn't Mr Moonen drunk when he
Page 368 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 So didn't the Air Force brief you on 13 14 15 16 Setting aside the blood alcohol 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that question. BY MS BURKE: Q But do you agree or disagree? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Same objection. I'm not in a position answered. THE WITNESS: Yes, I already answered companies, would you agree with me that Mr Moonen used an excessive use of force? MR BEIZER: Objection. Asked and
on the state of intoxication of Mr Moonen? A the Air Force. Q I think the investigation was done by
to make a judgment on what his use of force was. BY MS BURKE: Q A Why not? I've not stood in the same spot. I
Mr Moonen's intoxication when he shot that guard? A alcohol level. Q I don't remember seeing a blood
don't know all the circumstances of the event. Q Okay. So -- and just to make sure
I'm clear then.
From your perspective, neither you
level, though, weren't you briefed on the fact that he was intoxicated? A I understand that he had had some I don't know what his level was. I'm asking a different question.
nor anyone in the companies can actually make any judgments on the appropriateness of the conduct of your employees in Iraq or in Afghanistan? beyond your -A Q A Q No. -- ability? That's not true because -Okay, well then let's focus on That's
Weren't you told by the government of the United States that their investigation had revealed that Mr Moonen was intoxicated when he killed that man?
Pages 365 - 368

Page 369 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. THE WITNESS: I don't know what that Mr Moonen. A He violated company policy for having Page 371 1 2 3 4 5 6 Again -- strike that. You can answer 7 8 9 10 11 12 Okay. Do you know anything about the 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 speculation. (To the witness) You can answer. that? A Q No. Is that something you would have reception. Club. Q Now, did you provide personnel for It was at the Little Creak Officers'
alcohol and a firearm, and he was fired for it. Q Okay. And so then you would agree
flights bringing foreign nationals from the US to other countries? A Q Say that again? Did you provide personnel for flights
with me, wouldn't you, that his killing of that man was inappropriate? MR BEIZER:
(To the witness)
that brought foreign national prisoners from the US to other countries? A Q A Q From the US to other countries? Yes. Prisoners?
guard was trying to do on him. BY MS BURKE: Q
I don't know. You don't know one or the other on
death of a man named Rob Richardson? A Rob had worked for us for a number of
years and he was deploying for some other company. And, as I recall, he was killed by an EFP, an Iranian explosive formed penetrator, that killed him and a couple of guys in the vehicle. Q A Had he quit your company? I think so. Or he had -- there was
known at one time? A Not in the detailed activities of I didn't know everything
security functions, no.
that was going on all the time. Q know about? MR BEIZER: Objection. Calls for Is that something Gary Jackson would
a gap in his contract or when we had worked for him so he signed on with another group to fill the gap. I don't know whether he was terminated or whatever but...
Page 370 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you have any performance issues
Page 372 1 2 I don't think so. 3 4 5 I'm sorry? Jerry? 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 In Iraq? In Iraq. And he was killed going to 14 15 16 17 Was he working for you at the time? No. Had he been terminated? No. I mean, the work went away as 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince, Exhibit 17 is the would or not. BY MS BURKE: Q Well, Blackwater personnel wouldn't THE WITNESS: I don't know if Gary
with Mr Richardson? A Q I don't know.
What do you know about the death of
Jerry McCauley? MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: MS BURKE:
be staffing a flight from the United States bringing a foreign national prisoner from the US to some other country without the knowledge or permission of either you or Mr Jackson, would they? A We work for many parts of the US It's not something
Jerry McCauley.
McCauley. He was a long-time
THE WITNESS:
contractor for the company and he'd been working for a, like a human terrain mapping company, collecting local -- local information, I guess. BY MS BURKE: Q A
government, and I don't know.
Gary or I might have been briefed on. Q So your employees may have done it
without your knowledge? A I don't know. MS BURKE: Okay. I'm going to hand
meet some Iraqis. shooting. Q A Q A
He was gunned down in a drive-by
you what we'll mark as Exhibit 17. I'm also going to hand you what we'll mark as Exhibit 18. (Exhibits 17 and 18 marked for identification)
the Iraq presence drew down. Q Was there some issue that you were
indictment of the two men that you employed under the name of the company Paravant, correct? A Okay.
prohibited from going to Mr McCauley's funeral? A No. I remember going to the
Pages 369 - 372

Page 373 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Is that right? Yes, it must be. And do you have any information Page 375 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 And my question is whether your companies routinely received these reports of investigation that were done by the State Department? A (Witness reviewed the document) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Vague. 24 25 management office. Q Did you ever do any type of annual or
some frequency compliant audits where you went back and looked back at all of the conduct alleged to have been engaged in by your personnel? A I don't believe I did at my level but
that's known to you that contradicts what the Department of Justice has put in the indictment? A Q No. If you would look at Exhibit 18?
the programme officers did. Q And the findings from that, those
Exhibit 18 is labelled United States Department of State Diplomatic Service Report of Investigation, and I'll represent to you that this is something that had been released pursuant to an FOIA, so it is a redacted version of the State Department document.
compliance reviews, how were those findings transmitted to upper management, if they were? A Q I don't know. So you don't know -- you don't know
whether the findings were transmitted to upper management? A Q A Q A Q A Q I don't know if they were. What's polar quest? Polar quest? I don't know.
What's operation Chicago? No idea. What's the Sahara project? No idea. Were your personnel involved in
Okay, what's your question? Q My question is whether you routinely
received diplomatic service report of investigations? A Did I receive -MR BEIZER: THE WITNESS: Objection.
a project involving running brothels in China? MR BEIZER: I'm going to -- can you
No, I didn't receive
give me a proffer as to the relevance as to a false
Page 374 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 them? A Somebody within the WPPS programme these at all. BY MS BURKE: Q This form of document is not
Page 376 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A It would have been, like I said, in 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 find out. My understanding is some of the same personnel that were on WPPS were used in China for this project. BY MS BURKE: Q Mr Prince? MR BEIZER: Excuse me. How does that Do you have any knowledge about it, claim on the WPPS contract and the Katrina contract with respect to running brothels in China, the allegation you just made? MS BURKE: Well, we're understanding
something that you ever got? A Q No. Did the State Department -- when the
it's the same people, the same men. MR BEIZER: details on that? MS BURKE: That's what I'm trying to Can you give me more
State Department communicated their concerns about your personnel, what was the format that that was done?
a direct meeting format, by e-mail, or, if there was some official document, there would be a -I don't know. There must be some kind of
termination form, or something, that "We find this guy to be unfit for here, so please send him home". Q And that's what I'm trying to get at
is, in terms of the paper trail that exists, do you happen to know the form that they were done on? A Q No. Did you -- did those get sent to you
relate to whether or not the company submitted and Mr Prince submitted false claims on the WPPS contract, and that people who were on WPPS somehow were involved in a brothel? THE WITNESS: I don't follow that. She's calling the
as a matter of course? A Q No. Who within your companies reviewed
whacky worldwide web and finding every crazy story she can. MR BEIZER: No, stop. I'm just
asking Ms Burke I think a fair question.
Pages 373 - 376

Page 377 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS BURKE: You can instruct him. You Page 379 1 2 3 4 5 MR BEIZER: instruct him on this. Yes, I think I do want to 6 7 8 9 10 11 Mr Prince, are you taking your 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 any knowledge of this group? A Q No. Okay. Now, you had drug problems on
can instruct him if you'd like. answer.
I'd just like an
If he doesn't now anything about it, he Do you want to
doesn't know anything about it. instruct him?
your ship The McArthur, is that correct? A Q I don't know. Did the people that ran the WPPS drug
This agreement is It's near the end of
testing also run The McArthur drug testing? A Q I don't know. In terms of the structure of the
wide-ranging, as you know. the time.
I'm going to instruct him on that.
That's just way off the base for any judgment. BY MS BURKE: Q
company, how did The McArthur ship relate to Gary Jackson? A Q Did he supervise that as well? I think that was under Greystone. So that would be Chris Burgess's
counsel's instruction not to answer the question about running brothels in China? A Q That would be correct. The -- was there a subset of
responsibility? A Q Chris Burgess? A Q Yes. And was there any information-sharing I think so. So this is something I need to ask
personnel that were considered the physically elite within your company that formed themselves into a separate entity called the Army of Blackwater? A Q A Q No. Are you sure of that, Mr Prince? How did you characterise them? Well, that there was a group of
between the Greystone side and the Blackwater side in terms of compliance issues, such as drug testing? A Very different people you're I
people that had -- and I shouldn't say just physically, but a group of people that had
employing in those, so I wouldn't anticipate it. mean, licensed unionised merchant sailors versus
Page 378 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exceptional skills, either in marksmanship or other physical skills, that met, on work time, for training that were known colloquially within Blackwater as the Army of Blackwater? A No. I would say that there's people
Page 380 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 This is something -- this is 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q But what about -- what about answer. independent contractors going for a State Department-Type mission. Q Mr Prince. And I meant it a bit more broadly, I meant more between Blackwater as a
company and Greystone as a company. Was there information-sharing between those two companies about their compliance mechanisms? A pressure. I don't know to what extent there was I mean, Greystone certainly rolled up
that -- many of the staff would do adventure racing, and that would be open to anybody that wanted to come, and we'd pay for -- we typically paid an entrance fee and, you know, dragged their bikes down there for them. And that was open to
tall people, fast people, slow people and fat people. It was nothing to do with the elite status
under the one DVTC registration for the company at large, so.... Q I'm not sure I understand your So, basically, there was one compliance
because a lot of people would finish long after everyone else did, but it was a team building, fitness promoting, smoking quitting, you know, healthy lifestyle promotion. It's got a big lake We've got So
programme for all of t? MR BEIZER: For export matters.
on the property so people would swim. great trails for mountain bikes.
We can run.
there was -- it was certainly men and women and there was nothing about it like the Army of Blackwater. Q
compliance for matters such as the drug testing? You wouldn't consider that an export matter, right? A No, and I don't know what cross
cooperation was. Q Okay. And to get answers to those
something slightly different and it's involving Brian Berry, Max Gramow, Ken Cashwell and Sonia Ellis as well as a few other people. Do you have
questions, Chris Burgess and Gary Jackson are the people to talk to?
Pages 377 - 380

Page 381 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Probably Chris Burgess. Okay. Did you ever look -- did you Page 383 1 2 3 4 5 I've never heard that 6 7 You've never heard that allegation? No. Now you have testified -In fact, if you're referring to WPPS 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the previous lawsuits you've thrown as us and some of the names you've called me in your filings so... Q And would you take a look at Melan
ever do anything to look into the allegation that your men were involved in what they refer to as night hunting of Iraqis? A in my life. Q A Q A Night hunting.
Davis's declaration? (Witness reviewed the document) Mr Prince, would you characterise Ms Davis's first-hand account of combat from yourself and others in your employee engaged in as crazy stuff? A I would characterise it as very
incorrect and Brad's as well. Q A Q Pardon? And Brad's as well. And you're characterising it as --
guys, I would find it extremely unlikely as the State Department restricted their movements. They
couldn't just leave the base of the compound unless they were on an official mission. Q So if they were out at night or in
both of them as very incorrect because you're trusting your senior management team, right? A The management team appears, the
their vehicles, they were not doing what they were supposed to be doing, right? A Again, your claim is the first I've
process is in place, they've let us conduct forty thousand missions in Iraq with no-one under our care killed or injured. Q And these are the same processes that
ever heard of that. Q You don't read all the legal papers
in your matters, do you, Mr Prince? A I only read stuff that's remotely
have led to how many government investigations? A Q I don't know. But we've established somewhere
factual, not some of the crazy stuff you're throwing at us.
upwards of ten, right?
Page 382 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Do you view Brad Davis's declaration
Page 384 1 2 3 4 Okay. Where is it? It's one of the first exhibits. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 And would you characterise Mr Davis's 22 23 24 A I wasn't referring to that as much as 25 statement. MR BEIZER : Sorry I didn't hear it. MS BURKE: Yes. question? THE WITNESS: That's a long A Yes, and they all started after
as crazy stuff? A I'll tell you. Q A Q I need to read through it again and
Nisour Square and a blizzard of subpoenas driven mostly by Congressional interest of the Democrats. Q And so is it your testimony that all
of that Department of Justice interest in your operations is also just crazy stuff? A crazy stuff. our job to do. Q A But you don't agree -I'm just saying that the federal I didn't characterise their stuff as They have their job to do. We have
I think it's number 3. (Witness reviewed the document) Mr Prince, you've had a chance to read Mr Davis's declaration? A Q Yes. And Mr Davis is a former marine who
government -- the federal bureaucracies respond to Congressional boding and pounding by their appropriators and their staffs. Q So is it a fair summary to say that
began to work for your companies? A Q It appeared that way. And he's sworn under oath to some
you have yet to read anything you view as accurate either in any of legal pleadings that have been filed against your company by the Department of Justice or by the Davis's? MR BEIZER: Could you re-state that
instances when he was on the ground in Iraq formed the belief that some of his colleagues had engaged in excessive use of force? A excessive. Q I guess he would characterise it as
declaration as crazy stuff that we're throwing at you?
Pages 381 - 384

Page 385 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q Is it a fair statement that you Page 387
dispute the accuracy of all of the DoJ pleadings that you've reviewed today and all of the pleadings filed by Melan and Brad Davis? MR BEIZER: Objection. Vague. And
also asked and answered in the previous -THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm not going to
summarise your twenty-three, or whatever it was, exhibits in one fell swoop -BY MS BURKE: Q A Q Let me put it differently. -- we've read over 7 hours so... Let me put it differently, Mr Prince. Is there anything in the Department of Justice's indictments of your personnel with which you can agree, factually? A Q A That people died in Nisour Square. Is that it? Again, twenty-three exhibits, I'm not
going to go through each one and -- I'm not going to say yes or no and get hung for excluding some point. Q That's fine. I think that on each
one you had an opportunity, but, if you did want to
Page 386 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a brief break. add anything or amend or alter your testimony in any way to correct the record, you should feel free to do so now? A No, I think I've said enough. MS BURKE: I think I have exhausted
Page 388 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 No, I need you to take 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Okay, let's take 17 18 19 20 VIDEOGRAPHER: I've got to change 21 22 You've got 9 minutes. 23 24 25 children that you have with you here in Abu Dhabi? A Q Yes. And you are not comfortable putting
the name of the school on the record? A No. No, and I'm not comfortable
my time, having been asked by your counsel to save a few minutes for him. MR BEIZER:
doing that because last Friday at my house still in the United States some of your code pink protestors visited the house, pushed their way into the house and took pictures of my young children, all as a part of this lawsuit, so I'm not -Q Mr Prince, that had nothing to do I believe that there are many
your 7 hours and, if I need time after that, if that's okay with you. I want to give you the full
opportunity to explore your -MS BURKE: I'm sorry, I thought you
with this lawsuit. -A
had said reserve a few minutes for you. MR BEIZER: I did say. It was my
Oh yes.
Some of the things they were
understanding it would be after you complete your 7 hours. A misunderstanding. MS BURKE: Oh okay.
saying and some of the statements given to police officers would probably prove otherwise so... Q Mr Prince, I can assure you, as the
I don't know how much time I have
lead counsel on this, that I speak with confidence in saying that had absolutely nothing to do with this lawsuit. A coincidence. Q Mr Prince, the question that I had I can assure you it was no
left but let me just take a brief break and find that out.
tape now anyway so... THE WITNESS: MS BURKE:
Well, we'll have the court
asked you about whether or not providing people who are on steroids to the State Department, we had
reporter -- the videographer give us an official
Pages 385 - 388

Page 389 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 gone a bit about the differences between the steroids and the alcohol. discussion? A Q Yes. And what I want to get at this point Do you remember that Page 391 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Again, I'm not the 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 And I take it it's not from any 22 23 24 25 BY MR BEIZER: Q There was a question that was asked a hundred questions but I'm tired and it's time to go home for everybody, so I'll just ask this question. CROSS-EXAMINATION
on the record is -- is an understanding as to why you're drawing the distinction in your testimony between steroids altering judgment and alcohol altering judgment. Have you formed a view that having armed guards on steroids is not as dangerous as having armed guards under the influence of alcohol? MR BEIZER: answered several times. THE WITNESS: medical expert. Objection. Asked and
of you, Mr Prince, with respect to an RV, I believe it was an RV, that you got as a Christmas present. Do you remember Ms Burke asking you a question something about an RV as a Christmas present? A Q Yes. Do you know what the basis is or was
for billing the Department of Homeland Security under what we've called in this lawsuit the Katrina contract? In other words, did the company
Only from my 41 years of age,
separately bill the government for that RV? A No, we did not. We billed on a per
knowing that the State will take away your driver's licence if you're driving under the influence once or more, that's the only basis I draw that distinction on. BY MS BURKE: Q
day, per guard basis, and that rate covered all the life support, logistics, travel, basic gear, living accommodations, all the rest. I know we also
bought a -- we had to buy a circus tent because there was not enough tents available and the backlog was too long to try to get any kind of military tent. So a circus tent with some air
personal experience with those substances that you're drawing that distinction, right? A That's correct.
conditioner sufficed.
Page 390 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 questions. Q The State Department had asked that
Page 392 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 If we disagree on the terms of that 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 I 24 25 BY MS BURKE: Q You had previously testified that you Q Thank you, Mr Prince. Mr Prince, I have one follow-up question to that. RE-EXAMINATION
we keep this transcript sealed until such time as they've been able to review it and mark anything that they deem confidential. At that point, whatever they deem confidential will remain sealed under public record. In addition, as your counsel may have
weren't familiar with the manner in which the billing was done to Homeland Security. Do you know
informed you, he and I have worked out an informal arrangement to keep the deposition sealed, i.e. not provide it to the public, until such time as we have had an opportunity to get a protective order in place.
whether or not the contract provided for any type of cost accounting that led into a loaded overhead rate for the billing? A I think the only thing that was cost
basis for that was gas, gasoline. Q And I'm not talking about something
protective order, it's going to be incumbent on your counsel to go forward and protect the transcript, so at some point in the future, you know, the transcript may or may not become public, depending on the court rulings. But we have agreed
being cost basis necessarily, but the calculation of what is sometimes referred to as an admin rate or an overhead rate; that becomes a percentage
rate on the contract but it's fundamentally based on cost accounting? A No. I -- you'll have to ask the
with your counsel that until that is litigated out and ruled on by the court the transcript will remain non-public. And I don't have any further I believe my time may be up. MR BEIZER: Thank you, Ms Burke. I probably have
people that know, but I believe it was right off the GSA schedule on a day rate per guy, although the life support and logistics was wrapped into instead of the gasoline piece of it which was cost plus or actual, I'm not sure. But that was only
don't have but one question.
Pages 389 - 392

Page 393 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR BEIZER: Q I just thought there was some questions. RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION enquire? cost plus per the contract. Q Okay. So your understanding is that Page 395 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Well I just, if I may 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THELMA HARRIES, MBIVR, ACR Certified Court Reporter I, THELMA HARRIES, MBIVR, ACR do hereby certify: That ERIK PRINCE the witness whose examination is hereinbefore set forth was duly sworn by me and the within transcript is a true record of the testimony given by such witness. I further certify that I am not related to any of the parties of this action nor in anyway interested in the outcome of this matter. C E R T I F I C A T E
the gasoline was cost plus and that everything else was per diem, and that there was no other element to the invoicing, is that correct? A Right. The point being that it would
make most of the female plaintiffs' complaints about the hurricane Katrina stuff as irrelevant. Q A Other than the gasoline? The gasoline. MS BURKE: follow-up questions? MR BEIZER: Do you have further
Are you finished? MS BURKE: I have no further
confusion between a cost reimbursement and a cost plus, and they seem to be used interchangeably with respect to the gasoline element. Do you know whether it was actual cost reimbursement or whether it was cost plus, which use means cost plus in a word fee or cost
Page 394 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 questions. questions. MS BURKE: I have no further plus of some additional thing? A I don't know.
Page 396 1 2 3 I have no further 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 (Deposition concluded at 6:07 p.m.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Subscribed and sworn to before me this ________ day of ______________, 2010. ______________________________ ERIK PRINCE The signature of the witness was not waived, and the deposition was submitted and the undersigned is not interested in the within case, nor of kin or counsel to any of the parties. I, ERIK PRINCE, being first duly sworn, on oath say that I am the deponent in the aforesaid deposition taken on Monday, 23rd August, 2010; that I have read the foregoing transcript of my deposition, consisting of pages 1 through 394 inclusive, and affix my signature to same. There were present during the taking of the deposition the previously named counsel. The said witness was first duly sworn and was then examined upon oral interrogatories; the questions and answers were taken down in shorthand by the undersigned, acting as stenographer; and the within and foregoing is a true, accurate and complete record of all of the questions asked of and answers made by the aforementioned witness, at the time and place hereinabove referred to. The within and foregoing deposition of the aforementioned witness was taken before THELMA HARRIES, MBIVR, ACR., at the place, date and time aforementioned.
I think it was just cost
reimbursable, but I'm not sure. MR BEIZER: Okay.
Thank you, Mr Prince. VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of
tape 5 volume 1 in the video deposition of Mr Erik Prince. We're now going off the record at 7
minutes past 6 p.m., as indicated on the video screen.
Pages 393 - 396

Erik Prince of Blackwater - Redacted.

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Er i k Pr i nc e Vol .

08/ 23/ 2010

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

reporter please swear in the witness.

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

What lawyer? A Q I don't know. What lawyer represented you in the

relating to Melan Davis? MR BEIZER: Again, I'm going to

Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Nothing that would interfere with

may just finish and then you can respond?

I do not believe the case law

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

you created are the other defendants? MR BEIZER: Objection. Misleading.

Mr Prince not to answer whether or not he has read the complaint?

defend yourself? A If it goes to trial I would imagine

I'll make myself available. Q Do you know who is going to -- who

else is going to attend and testify for the

Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 instruction. advice. Next question.

thought to yet? A Q No. Do you understand that the lawsuit

To the extent he's reviewed records

in meetings with counsel, I instruct the witness not to answer.

question subject to that limitation. BY MS BURKE: Q

permitted by the court to be an individual defendant in the lawsuit? A I understand that.

first I heard of any of this.

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

This is why I came over here to

Have you read the complaint?

listen to my lawyer. Q You've been accused of providing the

and every termination was.

I'm not down to the weeds on those

They review the resumis of the guys.

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

not intended to introduce it.

the terms of the contract?

(Same handed to counsel) I'm glad it's cold in

force continuum. now.

happy to read through it and analyse it line-by-line with you. MS BURKE:

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

confidence, Mr Prince? A The management team and the policies

the issue at all?

Department what has to happen before deadly force may be used? A Q

I've gone and seen the people overseas.

(To the witness) THE WITNESS:

You may answer.

Have we looked at it?

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

The complaint -Yes, I can't list for

THE WITNESS: you the entire man -MR BEIZER:

Excuse me, sir.

I'm not sure who the

I understand that's -We are there to do what the contract

Mr Prince, I'm trying to do is

understand your testimony. You testified that you were confident

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

that you were referring to? confidence in? A

investigation is being done by the United States

Prince, Erik Vol. 1 08/23/2010

And, Rick, we can have a I had not intended to

did all the internal audits and accountants as well.

with a litany of pending government investigations? MR BEIZER: Objection.

So far as I know, we're

your general counsel? A About a year. MR BEIZER: Mischaracterises. question. Objection.

Objection to the form of the