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Never tell your password to anyone. Mrdie: Hello Axeman: Hello. Mrdie: Hello Mrdie: How's it going?

Axeman: Fine. What do you want? Mrdie: We can't talk normally? Mrdie: A six-year veteran of the community and... you Axeman: and I.... Mrdie: I still recall your work with the "Consortium" in November and December 2 010, even though you claim to have no recollection of those days Mrdie: What DID ever happen to getting rid of "King" Empy? Mrdie: Empty* Axeman: What? Mrdie: Remember? Axeman: I never denied recollection of anything. Mrdie: Yes you did Axeman: Oh really/ Mrdie: November 20, 2010 Mrdie: "In talks with Axeman I proposed and we agreed to uphold a three-point pl atform which enjoys a united and popular character at the present. Its contents were quickly released at 03:13 A.M. by Vi roman and stated the following: 1. Separation of mod powers from developers; mods which are mods separately of bein g developers and vice-versa for a no-abuse mod team and more precise development capacity. 2. Restoration of the Blackhole proper under the conditions of the Three-Phased Plan for Peace. 3. Removal of Empty as a moderator, but not as a de veloper. Unless at least two of these planks are fulfilled, neither myself nor Axeman will agree to be unbanned in a p eaceful manner." Mrdie: "This is subject to grow from other users under unjust bans. At this same time we do not have any illusio ns about the character of the present users who are rising on behalf of this or that figure. We understand that these are te mporary when not consciously led, and that the Deeists seek out compromises with the comprador and reformist figures. At this sam e time we denounce such sectarians as WalMartGreeter, who is currently spending all of his time condemning the unit y between the democratic movement and the progressive users movement, and in particular that unity which has been atta ined between our movement and the forces united under the command of Axeman. WalMartGreeter is the Empirian equivalent of the Democratic Centrists of 2006 that is, he is a traitor-in-waiting and cannot be trusted. Figures such as him ser ve only to objectively assist the cause of King Empty and Co., if not actively collaborate through intrigue." Mrdie: etc. Axeman: What? Mrdie: What? Axeman: How does this equate to forgetting anything. Mrdie: You denied it hapened Mrdie: happened* Axeman: Because it was hilarious. Axeman: Lieing =/= Forgetting. Mrdie: http://www.scribd.com/doc/45989136/Mrdie-on-the-November-December-Rising? secret_password=26l8aq36811bkrn8nst9 Axeman: Too long. Mrdie: look at least on page 10 Mrdie: "Letter to Axeman on the Necessity of the All-RoundStruggle Against React ion

November 23, 2010" Axeman: I have a Spanish composition to write, summarize. Mrdie: And your attempts to make the "Consortium" the "new force" in Empires Mrdie: Tell me, what are you doing to further that platform? Axeman: When did I ever attempt to recruit users? Mrdie: Krazer Mrdie: Some others Mrdie: who all revealed themselves enemies of our efforts Axeman: What? Mrdie: Yes Mrdie: They made posts and everything Mrdie: And said they were connected with you Axeman: Ok... Axeman: Who did? Mrdie: Krazer Axeman: I didn't recruit Krazer. Mrdie: And some others whose names I forget Mrdie: Alright then Mrdie: But you were in contact with figures such as HSM Axeman: Because HSM was a great leader. Mrdie: No he isn't Mrdie: He hates us Mrdie: He wants to remove various developers Axeman: He is a great commander. It also depends on which developers needed to b e removed. Mrdie: Tell me, do you still sympathize with us? Mrdie: You said I "needed help" Mrdie: Which is ridiculous, what have I done wrong? Axeman: Because obsession is an addiction. Mrdie: The Deeists are obsessed with retaining power Mrdie: "King" Empty, Trickster, Brutos, Mootant, etc. Axeman: Passive obsession and liking is different from active obsession. Mrdie: In this case we defend the mod and the Blackhole Mrdie: The Deeists undermine the mod, degrade the community, and hate the Blackh ole Axeman: Ok, that doesn't answer my question. Mrdie: Who cares? Mrdie: Your question is worthless, what's the definition of "obsessed" in this c ontext? Mrdie: Caring for the mod? Axeman: Dispraportionate devotion of time. Mrdie is now Away. Mrdie is now Online. Mrdie: I don't see how Mrdie: You apparently have a low opinion of Krenzo, of the mod, of the Blackhole , etc. Axeman: Becuase I am objective, looking from the outside in. I view things as if though I never played Empires. If there is something you care about you should keep a distance. Mrdie: People claim I don't play Empires, so using that logic I should be the mo st objective man around Mrdie: And in any case "objectivity" is abused Axeman: Thats like saying a man who spends his time at shooting galleries but do esn't do heroin is objective about it. Mrdie: Lenin Mrdie: "The objectivist speaks of the necessity of a given historical process; t he materialist gives an exact picture of the given social-economic formation and of the antagonistic relations to which it gives rise. When demonstrating the ne cessity for a given series of facts, the objectivist always runs the risk of b ecoming an apologist for these facts: the materialist discloses the class contra

dictions and in so doing defines his standpoint." Mrdie: "... Thus, on the one hand, the materialist is more consistent than the o bjectivist, and gives profounder and fuller effect to his objectivism. He does n ot limit himself to speaking of the necessity of a process, but ascertains exact ly what social-economic formation gives the process its content, exactly what cl ass determines this necessity. In the present case, for example, the materialist would not content himself with stating the insurmountable historical tendencies, but would point to the existence of certain classes, which determine the content of the given system and preclude the possibility of any solution except by the action of the producers themselves. On the other hand, materialism includes part isanship, so to speak, and enjoins the direct and open adoption of the standpoin t of a definite social group in any assessment of events" Mrdie: Marxist criteria for knowledge is by coming closest to that which is obje ctively real and correct Axeman: Dismissing objectivism just because you yourself aren't objective is ill ogical. Mrdie: We are objective Axeman: You just said objectivity was pointless. Mrdie: No, objectivity is conducted almost by default under a scientific framewo rk Mrdie: Engels noted that Marx turned socialism into a science Mrdie: Hence why Engels used "scientific socialism" as a term Mrdie: (Marxism as a term only became popular in the 1900s) Mrdie: Historical materialism is a scientific and objective analysis of history Axeman: Your drifting away from objectivity regarding empires. Mrdie: While obviously historical materialism cannot be applied to Empires, that does not mean we cannot examine phenomena Axeman: Throwing out Red Herrings to engage me in economics doesn't advance the cause of Empires. Axeman: The fact is you tolerated Dee before she banned you. Mrdie: Historical materialism isn't economics Mrdie: I did? Axeman: This is a vandetta. Mrdie: I "tolerated" her how? Axeman: By engaging under her power. Mrdie: If you read my posts from then it's pretty obvious I attacked her Mrdie: As an enemy of our efforts Mrdie: I mocked her, etc. Mrdie: No, I talked directly to Krenzo Axeman: Exactly, you were personally involved. Mrdie: Krenzo recognized the legitimacy of an elected moderator on July 28, 2006 Axeman: You are not objective. Mrdie: Something Dee disagreed with Mrdie: Again, objectivity comes through scientific analysis Mrdie: That is genuine objectivity Axeman: Which you are unable to provide. Mrdie: We have provided it in various venues Mrdie: The Empires Intelligence Report, for example Mrdie: Which reports on phenomena Axeman: From an un-objective standpoint. Axeman: The Nazis reported on the Jews, doesn't mean they were objective. Mrdie: Again, the liberal interpretation of "objective" is flawed Mrdie: The Nazis were not scientific Mrdie: They were reactionaries and metaphysicalists Mrdie: "Objectivism in the social sciences rejects class analysis (for example, the theory of deideologization) and refuses to disclose the activity and struggl e of social classes and groups and their responsibility for the solution of soci al problems. Objectivism interprets the subjects of history as puppets in a fate d course of events directed by impersonal factors. So-called objective historiogr aphy just consists in treating the historical conditions independent of activity

(K. Marx and F. Engels, Soch, 2nd ed., vol. 3, p. 39, n.). In the interpretation of art, objectivism is manifested in attempts to isolate an artistic work from social contradictions and moral problems and to deprive it of an active civic ro le (for example, the naturalist trend)." Axeman: How were they not scientific, we learned alot about Hypothermia and Toba cco from Nazi tests. Axeman: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/naziexp.html Mrdie: In the first case they did not adhere to the class struggle, which is sci entifically validated Mrdie: They propagated unscientific notions of the "master race" Mrdie: And an un-Marxist analysis of class forces Axeman: If something is un-marxist it is un scientific. Mrdie: Correct Axeman: They made actual scientific progress that helps medicine. Mrdie: That's a basic tenet of Marxism itself Axeman: What medical breakthroughs did Karl Marx give? Axeman: How many diseases did he cure. Axeman: Say what you want about politics, but you can be a non-marxist scientist . Mrdie: Marx understood the motive force of society and the basis of capitalism, the extraction of surplus-value Mrdie: Of course you can Axeman: You just said you couldn't. Mrdie: No I didn't Axeman: You dismissed Nazi medical advanced because they were not marxist. Mrdie: No, I denounced Nazi eugenics Mrdie: And "master race" idiocy Axeman: Axeman: How were they not scientific, we learned alot about Hypothermia and Tobacco from Nazi tests. Axeman: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/naziexp.html Mrdie: In the first case they did not adhere to the class struggle, which is sci entifically validated Mrdie: They propagated unscientific notions of the "master race" Mrdie: And an un-Marxist analysis of class forces Axeman: If something is un-marxist it is un scientific. Mrdie: Correct Mrdie: Yes, in the realm of mankind Mrdie: In the ream of social relations Mrdie: Note what I said above Axeman: What is more important than the realm of mankind? Mrdie: Nothing Mrdie: For mankind is all there is Mrdie: Another basic aspect of Marxism Axeman: Exactly. So isn't something that extends or improves human life a good t hing? Mrdie: Yes, but in the end only socialism can extend mankind forever Mrdie: as a whole Mrdie: Medicine of course is good and is to be congratulated, but only under soc ialism can it progress under optimal conditions Axeman: So if you take a medieval state and adapt socialism and I take a modern corporate state with lots of medicine you wou ld last longer. Mrdie: From a 1979 Soviet work Mrdie: "The dialectico-materialist methodology devised by Marx and Engels and co mprehensively developed by Lenin, stands out as a model of scientific approach. No other theory can there be, capable of providing a comprehensive and scientifi cally substantiated account of social development." Mrdie: There cannot be socialism in a medieval state Mrdie: The proletariat does not exist under such conditions Mrdie: And medicine in turn did not advance because there was no need for it to advance

Mrdie: Which again is another basic fact of Marxist analysis Mrdie: and touched upon by Engels Mrdie: You can make a thousand Universitiers Mrdie: Universities* Mrdie: it won't do anything Mrdie: until there is a need for progress Axeman: North Korea is a medieval a state due to its own inefficencies, so is No rth Korea not marxist? Mrdie: "If society has a technological requirement, the latter will do more to promote science than ten universities. Hydrostatics (Torricelli, etc.) owes its existence solely to the need to regulate mountain streams in Italy in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Only since the discovery of its technological uses have we known anything rational about electricity." Mrdie: No, it is not a "medieval state" Mrdie: It has a proletariat Mrdie: a peasantry in cooperatives Axeman: Define proletariat. Mrdie: The working class Axeman: Existed in medieval France. Mrdie: "one of the two main classes of bourgeois society; the class of wage earn ers. Proletarians are denied ownership of the implements and means of production , and thus their only source of livelihood is the sale of their labor to the cap italists, the other main class of bourgeois society." Mrdie: It did? Axeman: Yeah. Axeman: They didn't own their own land./ Mrdie: Okay, who gained from its surplus-value? Axeman: The lords. Mrdie: The "lords"? Axeman: The aristocracy. Mrdie: No they didn't Axeman: Yes they did. Axeman: The Manor system bro. Mrdie: That's not in accordance with Marxism at all Mrdie: The burghers gained Mrdie: artisans gained Mrdie: once they started employing people Mrdie: Then, as Marx notes in Das Kapital, a qualitative change occurred as part of a quantitative change Axeman: I mean that socialism can exist in a medieval context, not that medieval france was socialist. Mrdie: As Hegel noted in his dialectical understanding of events Mrdie: No it can't Mrdie: Lenin noted, for instance, that Mongolia could not attain socialism witho ut building up a proletariat Axeman: What are the requied tenets of socialism. Axeman: Also I have to leave in like 5 minutes, so if I just walk out we can con tinue this later FYI. Mrdie: Socialism requires the proletariat and the ability for the dictatorship o f the proletariat to be exercised Axeman: I have a lunch date. Axeman: Why is that impossible? Axeman: Peasent Rebellions? Axeman: Cromwell? Mrdie: Because the property relations and centralization of the working class ar e absent under medieval rule Mrdie: Look at Russia in 1917 Mrdie: Tons of workers worked in huge enterprises Axeman: Except in smaller states.

Mrdie: centralized Axeman: Venice. Axeman: Siena. Axeman: Florence. Axeman: Kush. Axeman: etc... Axeman: Incas. Mrdie: Those weren't proletarians Axeman: Why? Mrdie: Those were artisan workshops Mrdie: The bourgeoisie has capital Mrdie: Artisans didn't have capital Axeman: An entire state was nothing but an aristan workshop? Mrdie: No, you're confusing laborers with proletarians Axeman: Explain the difference. Mrdie: "Under capitalism, where the basis of production relations is formed by t he capitalist s ownership of the means of production, the workers are free citizen s enjoying equality under the law. However, lacking the means of production, the y are compelled, under the threat of hunger, to sell their labor power to the ca pitalist. This economic form of constraint guarantees the capitalist a massive a nd voluntary supply of sellers of labor power, power that in turn becomes a commod ity. Labor power is sold for specified periods of time for a specified price." Mrdie: "Under feudalism, the basis of the production relations of the society wa s the feudal lord s ownership of the land and his partial ownership of the workers (serfs). The principal form of constraint continued to be extraeconomic; the se rf, because of his personal dependence on the feudal lord, was forced to labor i n the lord s behalf. Although the serf was able to benefit economically from labor on his own farm, the harshness of the system s exploitation and the forced charac ter of the labor retarded the development of productive forces." Axeman: No. the constration WAS economic. Axeman: It was nothing but economics wrapped in other lies. Axeman: Therefore making the peasents of medieval era the proletarian. Mrdie: The peasant, so long as he had his own land, could not be a proletarian Mrdie: You can differentiate peasants (kulaks, etc.) but they aren't proletarian s Axeman: He did not have his own land. Axeman: He rented his land. Mrdie: Then he was a peasant under a kulak or lord Axeman: Then how is he not a proletarian. Axeman: Also my date is here, she is more important. Axeman: Come back with better arguements in an hour. Mrdie: Again, you don't understand Marxism Axeman: Back. Have better arguements? Mrdie: You seem to take issue with Marxism Mrdie: Even when a peasant had to work to pay off his debt and rents, he was sti ll affixed to his land Mrdie: And the land was the focus of all his efforts Axeman: Capitalism brings happiness. This pony is very happy due to capitalism a nd shopping. Would you take away her happiness? Axeman: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uv-ctBIVZu0/Tn0_p1IhG4I/AAAAAAAABAo/hpk2kBrBsf M/s1600/rarity+bags.PNG Mrdie: Capitalism causes economic collapse Mrdie: It's inherent within capitalism Mrdie: Falling rate of profit, etc. Axeman: Isn't happiness more important? Mrdie: And the fact that labor is the source of all value Mrdie: Which the capitalist does not respect Axeman: Isn't happiness more important? Mrdie: No, because capitalist "Happiness" is a fraud Mrdie: True happiness comes from being conscious of one's abilities

Mrdie: See for instance Mrdie: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/capitalism_culture.htm Axeman: Says you. Rarity loves diamonds. IF that makes her happy, why take away happiness? Mrdie: Har-de-har Mrdie: Diamonds are ridiculous Mrdie: Their only value is because of the effort to dig them out of the ground Mrdie: They have no real use-value outside of fashion Axeman: Exactly, an entire industry created out of goodwill and happiness. Mrdie: Not really Mrdie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamonds Axeman: Good movie. Mrdie: An entire industry, as with all other industries, created by exploitation Axeman: Isn't it created by demand for diamonds. Mrdie: No, it's created because of profit Mrdie: There is demand, yes, but demand and profit do not automatically follow Axeman: Isn't there profit because of demand? Mrdie: No, capitalists and culture can artificially create "demand" Mrdie: hence marketing Axeman: So nobody wants diamonds? Mrdie: Of course they do, they also want random trinkets Mrdie: because of the "value" given to them by culture Axeman: Everything in life that has ever existed is. Axeman: You are just denying everyponys happiness. Mrdie: That's ridiculous, there's value in well-made armaments Mrdie: Or well-made supplies Mrdie: to live, to move about, to work, etc. Mrdie: Those have definite use-values Axeman: Diamonds are used for lots of things, drill bits, fillaments, etc... Mrdie: Yes but obviously that isn't the context we're speaking of here Axeman: Why? They are created for the same reason./ Axeman: They are extracted the same way. Axeman: It creates a demand. Mrdie: Their use-value is completely different Mrdie: in both cases Mrdie: In the case of industrial use Axeman: A diamond that goes on her ring is just like the diamond on a drill bit. , Mrdie: Their actual value, taken from the labor put into extracting them from th e ground Mrdie: goes into the product they are put into Mrdie: and the value of what gets made from that product Mrdie: is taken in totality from what made the producing product Mrdie: Which is a basic part of the labor theory of value Mrdie: as Marx elaborated upon it Axeman: Doesn't answer supply and demand. Axeman: People want diamonds becuase they are shiny and cut metal. Axeman: Rarity likes to put diamonds on clothes for example. Mrdie: The latter has an actual use-value Mrdie: In any case Marxism doesn't deny supply and demand Mrdie: it just doesn't subscribe to "Say's Law" and other metaphysical, anti-sci entific doctrines Axeman: Elaborate. Mrdie: What? Say's Law? Mrdie: Marx condemns it his Grundrisse Axeman: Elaborate how this is relevant to Empires. Axeman: Your just throwing out red herrings now. Mrdie: You weren't talking about Empires Axeman: I wasn't the one who started talking about Diamonds, you did. Mrdie: No, you did

Axeman: I just pointed out that pony was happy. Mrdie: Axeman: Capitalism brings happiness. This pony is very happy due to capit alism and shopping. Would you take away her happiness? Mrdie: Capitalism doesn't bring happiness Axeman: Exactly, where in that did I say the word diamond. Mrdie: This is obviously not in accord with the Marxist understanding of events Mrdie: Axeman: Says you. Rarity loves diamonds. IF that makes her happy, why tak e away happiness? Axeman: I am pretty happy. Axeman: What about me? Mrdie: What about you? Mrdie: Why are you happy? Axeman: I live in a capitalist society. Mrdie: Because you are petty-bourgeois Axeman: I have climbed the ranks/. Axeman: lol Mrdie: Because of false consciousness Axeman: My mother was a coctail waitress. Axeman: My dad is in prison. Axeman: I have no other family. Axeman: I studied and got a scholarship to Georgetown. Axeman: Got a good job now and am in school. Mrdie: Don't forget the labor aristocracy Axeman: hardly of the silver spoon. Mrdie: "They [Social-Democrats] are just as much traitors to socialism... They r epresent that top section of workers who have been bribed by the bourgeoisie... for in all the civilised, advanced countries the bourgeoisie rob either by colonia l oppression or by financially extracting 'gain' from formally independent weak countries they rob a population many times larger than that of 'their own' country . This is the economic factor that enables the imperialist bourgeoisie to obtain superprofits, part of which is used to bribe the top section of the proletariat and convert it into a reformist, opportunist petty bourgeoisie that fears revol ution." Mrdie: - Lenin Axeman: Ok. Axeman: Answer me. Mrdie: Even Engels noted that the proletariat of Britain was "bourgeoisified" in the late 1800's Axeman: Quoting Lenin is not an answer. Mrdie: I did answer you Mrdie: you are obviously aiming for a petty-bourgeois job Mrdie: once you get out of school Mrdie: and you have a petty-bourgeois mentality Axeman: How so? Mrdie: You base things on "happiness" Mrdie: In other words, capitalism allows you to live nicely, ergo you support it Axeman: What else should I base things on? Axeman: Implying I live nicely. Axeman: Do you know what I eat every night? Axeman: Ramen/. Mrdie: Well Marxism looks at things objectively, it understands that the proleta riat is the leading force of mankind, and is poised to take power Axeman: I live in a 1 room apartment. Axeman: I work hard and will succeed. Mrdie: Class struggle develops out of obvious differences not just in outlook be tween the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, but also obvious economic differences in terms of class and relation to the means of production Axeman: Ok, relevance? Axeman: I objectively support a system without being endowed by it. Mrdie: It is relevant, because eating ramen does not make you a proletariat

Mrdie: proletarian* Mrdie: You support a system because you know you will emerge as a petty-bourgeoi sie Axeman: What does? Mrdie: What makes you a proletarian? Axeman: Anybody. Mrdie: Being exploited by a capitalist, having surplus-labor extracted and this being your only way to live; by selling your labor-power Mrdie: I'm pretty sure they teach basic Marxism in schools Axeman: -I have a boss. Axeman: -I work and have my surplus labor extracted. Axeman: -I sell my labor to whoever needs me. Axeman: The only thing that divides this is educaion. Mrdie: Well the only question here is, do you "hunt" for labor-power, and offer it? Axeman: Become intelligent and you overcome this. Mrdie: Or are you forced to sell it Mrdie: and work in one factory Mrdie: or one workplace Mrdie: The latter makes you a proletarian Mrdie: The former makes you a petty-bourgeoisie Axeman: In an era with free education of high quality you cannot say only the do wntrodden count as proles. Mrdie: We don't say that Axeman: Say what? Mrdie: That there are only "downtrodden" proletarians Mrdie: e.g. there are also nonindustrial proletarians Mrdie: "workers who perform nonphysical, mental labor in return for a wage or, i n capitalist countries, for a salary, or fixed payment. The concept does not hav e a precise or generally accepted definition, but it corresponds roughly to a nu salaried e mber of terms used in Anglo-Saxon countries, including salaried workers, mployees, nonmanual workers, and white-collar workers. " Axeman: "forced" "opressed", sounds downtrodden. Mrdie: They are objectively forced Mrdie: And exploitation doesn't come from being whipped or whatever Mrdie: it comes from surplus-value Mrdie: Because profit itself comes from surplus-value Axeman: You cannot invoke objectivity after you have already said it is irreleva nt. Axeman: Try again. Mrdie: Again, objective means objective reality Axeman: If you take drugs your objective reality changes. Axeman: Try again. Mrdie: As Lenin noted, Marxists get as close as is possible in the present epoch to understand reality Mrdie: No it doesn't Mrdie: Your perception changes Axeman: Have you ever had China White or LSD? Mrdie: objective reality doesn't change Mrdie: just your perception of it Mrdie: The goal is to fully understand objective reality Mrdie: drugs obviously inhibit that Axeman: All perceptions of reality are personally based. Axeman: If 2 people have different functioning eyes. Axeman: Does that change reality? Axeman: No. Mrdie: Using that logic science would have no reason to exist Axeman: It does change objectivity though. Mrdie: No, because Marxism is scientific Mrdie: it isn't based on what one "sees" and "deduces"

Mrdie: It is based on what one can correctly and scientifically analyze Axeman: No, curing polio is scientific. Marxism is a social theory no different from reganomics. Mrdie: No, Marxism is inherently scientific Mrdie: "The first programmatic document of scientific communism was the Communis t Manifesto (1848), in which Marx and Engels demonstrated that the capitalist sy stem contains irreconcilable contradictions that can only be resolved by a socia list revolution, which will abolish the rule of the bourgeoisie and establish th e power of the working class. They showed that the social force whose calling it is to abolish capitalism and establish the socialist system is the working clas s, whose allies are the other strata of the toiling masses. Marx and Engels perf ormed a great service by demonstrating that it is necessary for the proletariat to form its own independent political party." Mrdie: "Lenin creatively enriched the theory of socialist revolution and the the ory of the construction of socialist and communist society. He armed the Russian working-class movement and the entire international working-class movement with scientifically based strategy and tactics, and he led the struggle to put the i deals of scientific communism into practice. " Mrdie: etc. Axeman: Ok, distinguish your theory scientificaly from Reganomics. Axeman: Also : Axeman: A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Vladimir Lenin Mrdie: Lenin never said that Mrdie: Anyway, Marxism is an all-encompasing scientific analysis Mrdie: Even Engels criticized metaphysical aspects of mathematics Axeman: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vladimir_lenin.html Mrdie: Again, he never said it Axeman: Google the quote. Mrdie: I have his entire collected works Mrdie: he never says it once Mrdie: 40+ volumes Axeman: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/v/vladimirle132031.html Mrdie: Source the quote Axeman: http://kinziblogs.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/a-lie-told-often-enough-becom es-the-truth/ Mrdie: Ahem Mrdie: Source it Mrdie: a book Axeman: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/75940 Mrdie: Har-de-har Mrdie: In any case, Reaganonomics is just bourgeois economics Mrdie: which is inherently vulgar and unscientific Axeman: In any case, Marxism is just peasent economics./ Mrdie: How so? Mrdie: Marx wasn't a peasant Mrdie: He was a scientist Mrdie: His studies on dialectics, for instance Axeman: No, people who cure polio are scientists. Mrdie: were noted for their vast contribution Axeman: He was a social theorist. Mrdie: to mankind's emancipation Mrdie: What about dialectics? Mrdie: That's hardly "social" territory Axeman: Which is more important, curing disease of theorizing on human nature. Mrdie: Marx didn't theorize on human nature, he theorized on productive relation s and on the question of motion and matter, that is to say, on dialectics Axeman: Also, still waiting for the distinction between Reganomics and Marxism o n a scientific basis. Mrdie: Reaganonomics is entirely within the realm of bourgeois economics

Mrdie: A better question would be to differentiate between bourgeois economics a nd Marxism Mrdie: in-re science Axeman: Ok, waiting. Mrdie: Well bourgeois economics denies class struggle and surplus-value, it also denies the role of the creation of value in the process of labor. For this reas on it swerves from the scientific path which Adam Smith, Ricardo, Marx, etc. est ablished Mrdie: (Marx built upon Smith, Ricardo, and earlier economic thinkers) Axeman: Marxist economics denies the value of education and the "animal spirit" Axeman: 2 beats by different names. Mrdie: What is the "value of education" Mrdie: "The possibility of creating a genuinely scientific system of economic kn owledge arose with the advent of Marxist economic doctrine, which incorporated t he highest achievements of previous economic thought and creatively reworked the m in accordance with materialist historical principles. " Axeman: With a good enough education the poorest most downtrodden person with th e most wretched birth can rise to great power. Mrdie: And how does that occur? Axeman: Hard work. Mrdie: You note "can" Mrdie: This ignores, for instance, capitalist crises Axeman: As opposed to? Mrdie: Such as the one we're in now Axeman: Only the poor and uneducated are out of work at large. Mrdie: Under periods of economic growth obviously some people can grow up to bec ome petty-bourgeois or, in some cases, even bourgeois figures Mrdie: "poor" Mrdie: You said that the poor can rise up Axeman: Also there is no better time to go to school. Mrdie: Except the Obama Administration and the Republicans are promoting savage austerity cuts across the board Mrdie: As are other capitalist states Mrdie: such as in the UK Mrdie: This includes education Mrdie: "Public schools are being closed by the hundreds, accompanied by an unpre cedented wave of teacher layoffs. In 2010, 151,000 education workers were laid o ff in the US. In the coming school year, a further 227,000 layoffs are planned, according to a recent survey by the American Association of School Administrator s." Mrdie: "The terrible conditions facing youth are not unique to the United States . In Britain, university tuition is set to triple next year, from 3,000 to 9,000. This has prompted a 30 percent rise in applicants this year, as millions of stud ents seize their last chance at a reasonably affordable education. The flood of applicants means that tens of thousands will be turned away." Axeman: Oh by the way, still waiting for the objective difference between Regano mics and Marxism. Mrdie: no better time to get an education! If you can get it, of course Mrdie: Again, that's a false comparison Mrdie: Reaganonomics is entirely within the realm of bourgeois economic thought Axeman: Not an answer. Mrdie: It's like saying to compare the objective difference between Benny Hinn a nd Marxism Axeman: Swing and a miss. Try again. Mrdie: I don't see the need to answer a ridiculous question Mrdie: Marxism is scientific Mrdie: Lenin noted this Mrdie: I can provide you a quote that is real from him Axeman: Regan said his theory is scientific. Mrdie: "Marxism is omnipotent because it is true."

Axeman: He can provide you quotes from himself. Mrdie: Reagan said his "theory" was scientific? Mrdie: Where Mrdie: Show me Axeman: Doesn;t make it objectively true. Mrdie: Show me his "scientific" theory Mrdie: Bourgeois economics do not believe that economics is a science Mrdie: They believe that the consumer is inherently rational Mrdie: and other ridiculous postulates Axeman: So everything Marx says is right? Mrdie: Demonstrate where in the field of economics Marx was wrong Axeman: Everything Marx says about his own ideaology is correct then? Mrdie: He didn't have an ideology Axeman: By that logic Regan and everything he says about his own ideaology is co rrect. Mrdie: Marxism didn't develop until after Marx died Mrdie: No, because Reagan based his words on a lack of scientific analysis Mrdie: Marx grasped objective historical truths Mrdie: Reagan didn't Axeman: Regan didn't try to justify his theories through historical revisionism. Mrdie: Neither did Marx Mrdie: Marx uncovered historical processes Mrdie: Lenin: "Marxism has won its historic significance as the ideology of the revolutionary proletariat because, far from rejecting the most valuable achievem ents of the bourgeois epoch, it has, on the contrary, assimilated and refashione d everything of value in the more than two thousand years of the development of human thought and culture." Axeman: Just get on Teamspeak. My fingers are getting tired. Mrdie: I'd rather not Axeman: Why? Mrdie: I'm busy Mrdie: writing a speech to be delivered to BSID Clan members Axeman: Busy enough to type and quote, but not speak? Mrdie: Yes, because speaking is more distracting Axeman: How so, if your typing to me your not writting your speech. Mrdie: I am Mrdie: Since 2006, with the coming into existence of the democratic movement and the struggle of the Blackholian userbase entering a new period, the question of the relationship between the clans of the Empires Mod and the democratic moveme nt was initiated as one of many different yet important questions to be solved t hrough practice. In that year our first interactions with the BSID Clan began wh en we interacted with Cheomesh, co-founder of the clan and the man who gave it t he name it has had ever since. In the years 2007-2009 a pseudo-democratic force known as Constitutionalism dominated the democratic movement and sought to destr oy it from within, severely limiting its contacts with other players. It was not until July 2009 that Constitutionalism could be fully defeated within the movem ent and the task of attaining an elected moderator in the Blackhole put back ont o the agenda. On November 18, 2009 I delivered a speech to the BSID Clan and cal led on it to support our just struggle against the Deeist clique and in defense of the cause of an elected moderator in the Blackhole. From this came the openin g up of relations on a mutual basis, but this situation would not last. Thor and Cpatton proved, alongside their agents such as The Other JMS, Myst, and so on t o be opponents of the democratic movement. Thor and Cpatton proved this not thro ugh words, but through deeds, although later on they would prove this through wo rds as well. Mrdie: In the year 2006 Thor, as opposed to Cheomesh, acted as an agent of Deeis m against the interests of the Blackholian userbase. He founded the so-called Gor ge Nationalist Party, a Neo-Nazi organization alongside Angry and other reactiona ries, and it enjoyed the good graces of Dee and Co. Our democratic movement was apprehensive about this Gorge Nationalist Party, and our apprehensions were confir

med when it played no role in the struggle against the Deeist clique throughout the rest of 2006. Cpatton, according to MooJuice and others, attempted to use the democratic movement in 2010 to serve him and his own particular ambitions within the community, but our resolute and independent stands thwarted Cpatton's effor ts. I myself witnessed the two-faced nature of Cpatton. For instance, whereas Cp atton spoke out against King Empty, Mootant, Trickster, and other Deeist reactiona ries throughout much of 2010, by the time the great November-December Rising had begun Cpatton had switched to saying that, I guarantee you that whatever you thi nk you know about empires and it's [sic.] staff, administrators, mods, and other contributors is flawed if you think any one of us are acting in anything but th e utmost best interest of the mod, it's [sic.] author, and the community it supp orts. (1) Let us compare this quote with what Cpatton said in the Admin forum at t he start of the August Uprising, when Cpatton noted on the subject of opposing t he democratic movement and incurring the wrath of the users in response, he poin ted out that All the drama you guys create... you push on yourselves. And shame o n you Empty for being a vehicle of it s constant escalation. (2) Mrdie: If we examine the relations between our democratic movement and the BSID Clan throughout much of 2010, we can see that the BSID Clan had within it variou s members who were sympathetic or even supportive of our democratic movement. Th ese members of the clan were significant enough to force the likes of Thor and C patton to temporarily change their views accordingly. The nature of cooperation between the progressive elements of the BSID Clan and our democratic movement to ok various forms. In the first and primary place it took the form of educating B SID Clan members of present-day community affairs, in the second place it took t he form of collaboration with these progressive clan members against the machina tions of the Deeist clique, against unjust bannings and against attempts to unde rmine the Empires Mod. We strove for an equal relationship with the BSID Clan, r ecognizing that it could and at times did play a progressive role in the defense of the mod and the Blackhole despite the vacillating and covertly reactionary natur e of its leadership. Through cooperation with the BSID Clan our democratic movem ent gained in various ways, from meeting a great many members of the community, from learning about and from the Brenodian stands of the clan, and from gaining a supporting ally in the struggle against the Deeist clique. The BSID Clan also gained from this period of cooperation. It gained, in the first place, by having many of its members heroically stand against the Deeist clique and in defense o f the Empires Mod. It gained by revitalizing the clan which, as I speak today, i s moribund and derided as a joke clan. The BSID Clan became unique among the clans for its seemingly fearless nature in combating the Deeist clique and other reac tionaries, and in coming to the defense of the mod and its community in a way no other clan was doing. Mrdie: The democratic movement, which adheres to a scientific-materialist unders tanding of events, understands that clans cannot play a leading role in events, but instead take part in events in the role of assisting the progressive forces at work. In the struggle against the Deeist clique, whose interests are against those of the Empires Mod and its community, along with those of the Blackholian userbase and the Blackhole itself, members of the BSID Clan partook in various e fforts to defend all of these things against the threat Deeism presented and con tinues to present to them. So great were the feelings of so many BSID Clan membe rs that the BSID-Democratic Union was formed in March 2010 as a participant with in the Blackhole Front, and December became the Brenodi Democratic Party within it. This represented the ever growing relations between our democratic movement and the progressive elements of the BSID Clan, who were daily becoming more and more remote from the reactionary and opportunist elements. Throughout the early and middle months of 2010 the open reactionaries, led by The Other JMS, attacked this unity and sided with the Deeist clique against the democratic movement. At this same time the likes of Thor and Cpatton began seeking to undermine the dem ocratic movement from within. Thor attempted to sabotage the work of the State o f the Blackhole and the Blackhole Front, using the positions he had wormed his w ay into in both institutions in order to became an unquestionable and abusive au tocrat within both. It was not until September 5th of last year that he was just

ly expelled from his positions for such negative and anti-democratic activities. Cpatton, meanwhile, had aroused the suspicions of a great many users since Dece mber 2009 when he proclaimed alongside Deeist agents OuNin and banned user PreDo minance the so-called Empires Union, which we noted could never achieve anything a nd was in fact a den of Deeist intrigue. The users of the entire community concu rred with the democratic movement in this assessmen Mrdie: etc. Axeman: That was obviously already written. Mrdie: No it wasn't Axeman: If your speaking with me you are not writting to me. Mrdie: This is where I'm at right now Mrdie: The August Uprising would test the genuineness of Cpatton's proclaimed su pport of democracy, progress and peace in the Blackhole, and support for the who le userbase in its struggle against the Deeist clique. Of course the Deeist cliq ue all this time watched the events occurring within the BSID Clan with alarm, a nd figures such as King Empty and MooJuice did their best to undermine the BSID Cl an as a way of undermining the democratic movement. At the start of the August U prising on August 8th, 2010, King Empty had as his goal not just the occupation of the Blackhole proper, but also the banning of a great many users, not just thos e supportive of the democratic movement, but even those who belonged to rival su b-cliques within Deeism. Mrdie: note it isn't finished Axeman: *writting to me you are not writting that* Mrdie: because of the length of it vis--vis other paragraphs Axeman: Also. Axeman: Source: 1923 Speech to the Commissars of Education Axeman: We must hate - hatred is the basis of communism. Children must be taught to hate their parents if they are not communists. Axeman: Hate breeds murder. Mrdie: That isn't a real quote Axeman: Look up the speech bro. Axeman: Tis real. Mrdie: It isn't in his collected works Mrdie: Lenin did speak about morality Mrdie: He did note that communists believe that real morality is based on scienc e Mrdie: and on the emancipation of the proletariat Mrdie: That's where true morality is directed towards Axeman: Waiting for justification of hatred. Mrdie: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/oct/02.htm Mrdie: Well "hatred" in itself Mrdie: isn't bad Axeman: So racism is ok? Axeman: Its just hatred of another race. Mrdie: No, because hatred against the class enemy is based on scientific grounds Mrdie: When one effectively directs that hatred Mrdie: into the overthrow of capitalism Mrdie: that's good Axeman: Ok. So, justify hatred in general. Axeman: If you want to created happiness, how can you justify hatred. Mrdie: Because hatred against capitalism, and the overthrow of capitalism, creat es the conditions for mankind's emancipation Mrdie: " Ruthless war on the kulaks! Death to them! Hatred and contempt for the parties w hich defend them-the Right Socialist-Revolutionaries, the Mensheviks, and today' s Left Socialist-Revolutionaries! The workers must crush the revolts of the kula ks with an iron hand, the kulaks who are forming an alliance with the foreign ca pitalists against the working people of their own country." ("Comrade Workers, Forward To The Last, Decisive Fight!" August 1918, in Lenin, V.I. Collected Works. Vol. 28. Moscow: 1965., pp. 53-57.)

Mrdie: same source: "The kulaks are the most brutal, callous and savage exploite rs, who in the history of other countries have time and again restored the power of the landowners, tsars, priests and capitalists. The kulaks are more numerous than the landowners and capitalists. Nevertheless, they are a minority..." Mrdie: "There is no doubt about it. The kulaks are rabid foes of the Soviet gove rnment. Either the kulaks massacre vast numbers of workers, or the workers ruthl essly suppress the revolts of the predatory kulak minority of the people against the working people s government. There can be no middle course. Peace is out of t he question: even if they have quarrelled, the kulak can easily come to terms wi th the landowner, the tsar and the priest, but with the working class never." Mrdie: etc. Mrdie: Molotov in his memoirs also notes how Lenin called for the suppression of various peasant rebellions Axeman: Is the objective of Marxism to create human happiness? Mrdie: Because they threatened the gains of socialism Mrdie: Yes Mrdie: The emancipation of mankind, as I said Mrdie: Hence "tis the final conflict" bit in The Internationale Axeman: So if hatred is diametricaly opposed to hapiness, how is this possible. Mrdie: Because there is hatred borne out of love for humanity Mrdie: And contempt for the enemies of humanity Axeman: What prevents hatred from turning into racism? Mrdie: Lenin was at ease among workers, but hated opportunists, vacillators, etc . Mrdie: Lenin was at ease among workers, but hated opportunists, vacillators, etc . Mrdie: Because bourgeoisie or intelligentsia isn't a race Axeman: It is a group of people. Axeman: If you persecute a group of people with generalizations and advocate hat red against them. Mrdie: A group of exploiters or apologists for exploitation Axeman: How is it any different from calling one group of people tratiors. Mrdie: They are traitors, Lenin did call the enemies of socialism traitors to th e cause of mankind's liberation Mrdie: The goal is for the proletariat to fulfil its historic mission Axeman: Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen s religion in official d ocuments should unquestionably be eliminated. Collected Works, Vol. 10, pp. 83-87 Mrdie: Which is to destroy capitalism and to usher in a stateless and classless society Mrdie: Yes Axeman: So now hatred is bad? Axeman: I thought hatred was ok? Mrdie: No, the clergy was targeted Mrdie: Not the believer Mrdie: Lenin said that religion must be a truly private affair Mrdie: Which was something adopted by all other communists since Axeman: Exactly, that is the opposite of hatred. Mrdie: Yes, but as I said, hatred borne out of love for humanity is different fr om being a misanthrope Axeman: So it seems that his theories are at ends with himself. Mrdie: No, believers aren't exploiters Mrdie: Lenin targeted the clergy Mrdie: And those who provided cover for feudalism and capitalism Axeman: What about those among the clergy who truly wanted to do good? Mrdie: They were fine Mrdie: East Germany had a Christian Democratic party Mrdie: that openly operated and worked with the SEP Mrdie: SED*

Axeman: You just said "the clergy" like one homogenous hive mind. Mrdie: The Christian Democratic Union of Germany (German: Christlich-Demokratisc he Union Deutschlands (CDU)) was an East German political party founded in 1945. It was part of the National Front with the Socialist Unity Party of Germany (SE D) until 1989. Mrdie: SED publications praised Thomas Mntzer against the more reactionary Luther , Mrdie: "In the 22 "Theses on Christian Realism", the CDU committed itself to the "Socialist reorganisation of Society" (1. edition, 1951). Emphasising the "exem plary realisation" of Karl Marx's "teaching on building a new, better social ord er" in the USSR, it was declared that Socialism offered at the time "the best op portunity for the realisation of Christ's demands and for exercising the practic al Christianity". The programme also asserted Christian Democrats' support for w orking class' leading role in establishing socialism, a development which the CD U regarded from its 6th Congress on as historically necessary and consistent".[1 ]" Mrdie: Nothing wrong with those sort of believers Mrdie: and clergymen Mrdie: Those are progressive individuals Mrdie: who are willing to defend socialism Axeman: So, then you are suddenly not advocating hatred? Mrdie: Again, hatred against exploiters Axeman: You cannot endorse a base element of hatred. Mrdie: I don't Axeman: Its like endorsing fire. Axeman: But then not likeing when it burns down a house. Axeman: You either completely oppose it or you do not. Mrdie: That's a liberal conception of affairs Mrdie: It is possible to direct matters Axeman: How so? Mrdie: Hatred against reactionary clergy, support for progressive clergy Mrdie: or instance, in Albania in the 1940's, various clergymen were shot for co llaborating with the Italian occupiers Mrdie: but progressive clergymen, such as Baba Faja, were promoted Mrdie: Because they sympathized with the dictatorship of the proletariat Mrdie: And were willing to peacefully work with it Mrdie: for a better country Axeman: So once again, hatred results in death. Mrdie: of course it does Axeman: You already endorsed hatred. Mrdie: yes Mrdie: Engels, 1872: "A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing the re is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon th e other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon authoritarian means, if suc h there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in v ain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had no t made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should w e not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?" Axeman: So, you endorse murder? Mrdie: Of course Mrdie: read that Mrdie: "Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don' t know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but c onfusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of t he proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction." Axeman: So you still endorse murder and hatred for your own means? Axeman: So you still endorse murder and hatred for your own means? Mrdie: As necessary for the victory of socialism Mrdie: against the exploiters

Mrdie: Again, this is Marxism 101 Mrdie: Dictatorship of the proletariat isn't a nonviolent concept Mrdie: Why do you think Marx admired Robespierre, who was one of the most progre ssive individuals in the French Revolution? Axeman: For a man so rooted in logic and science, supposedly, you truely do not grasp the basic tennets or values of human life and dignity. You are the reason that your socialist utopia will never come about. You will be the root of your o wn demise. Mrdie: Har-de-har