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Dr. Drew Pinky Interview with Dr. Harry Krop I`m joined by Harry Krop.

He is a forensic psychologist who actually evaluated Casey Anthony and spent 20 hours with her in five or six visits. Dr. Krop, thank you for visiting us. So Casey did not testify in her own trial. And there was questions about her competency. Let me just throw up one question to start with. Do you believe that she had significant mental illness? DR. HARRY KROP, PSYCHOLOGIST, EVALUATED CASEY ANTHONY: I do not believe -- based on all of my interactions with her, as well as the psychological testing, I don`t believe that she has any diagnosable mental illness. She has always been competent to proceed from the initial stages of my involvement, all the way through to the end of the trial. PINSKY: OK. For my viewers, I want to try to break this down a little bit, because we throw around a lot of terms that we use with great accuracy that the general public may not understand exactly what we`re talking about. Let`s talk about what we mean when we say mental illness. What are we saying then? KROP: Well, when I`m referring to mental illness, I`m referring to a psychiatric or a psychological disorder. A person must meet certain behavioral criteria to be actually diagnosed with a mental illness. It doesn`t mean -PINSKY: OK. And Dr. Krop, I`m going to interrupt you. Do you mean - - now, this is two clinicians talking here. I`ll explain what I mean in a second. Do you mean Axis I diagnoses, or are you including Axis II in that? KROP: For Casey, I am including both Axis I and Axis II. And one of the reasons that she -PINSKY: OK. So what -- I`m going to say for the public, what he and I are talking about, Axis I are diagnoses like depression and anxiety disorders and psychotic illnesses, people who have thought disorders. They believe they are Napoleon, that kind of thing. Axis II is really what we have been talking about with Casey, which is chronic behavioral disturbances, lying, interpersonal chaos. It`s hard for me, Dr. Krop, to understand how she could not have an Axis II diagnosis. KROP: I understand how that`s difficult both for you, as well as the public, to believe that she doesn`t have an Axis II disorder. I have seen on your show, as well as some of the other shows on your network, individuals coming on and making references to her as either a psychopath or a sociopath. One of the reasons that Casey actually authorized me to go public with the results of my evaluation was because she wanted it to known to the public, both the good and the bad of Casey. But I think Casey feels that - - and for obvious reasons -- that the public has really only seen part of who Casey Anthony really is. PINSKY: All right. So let me ask another question. So she may not have a diagnosable disorder with Axis

II. Does she have what we call borderline traits or sociopathic traits? KROP: No, she doesn`t have those traits either. PINSKY: That`s impossible! I can`t believe that. Wait a minute, Doctor. I can`t believe that. She has created a vortex. She is a chronic liar. She is engaging in criminal behavior. How is that possible? KROP: She`s an intelligent woman, but basically an extremely immature woman. You have to understand that the Casey that I have been involved with -- and I didn`t get involved in the case until November of 2010, when I was requested to evaluate her for specifically the purpose of possibly testifying at her sentencing phase if she were convicted. So I did not see the Casey that is shown on the TV and is shown on some of the videos and the recordings when she talked to her mother. When I spoke to Casey about those conversations and some of the things that have been shown on TV, she, herself -- and I`m not suggesting that she is denying that -- but, she, herself, has a difficult time truly understanding how she could have been so immature and how she could have engaged in the kind of behavior that the public has seen so much of her. PINSKY: Again, I`m left with a big question mark over my head, because that`s sort of our job, to try to understand those things and understand how she could have been. Was she involved in any negligence towards her child? I have 30 seconds for that answer. KROP: No. Not that I`m aware of. PINSKY: All right. Well, we`re going to keep talking with you. And still, again, for my viewers, I want to kind of understand this, because the next question I want to ask you after we get back from the commercial is, well, if she doesn`t have psychiatric illnesses, she doesn`t have psychological problems, is she a criminal? So, coming up next, more with the forensic psychologist who spent more than 20 hours in the same room as Casey Anthony. I`ll ask him if he thinks Casey is capable of murdering her daughter. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) PINSKY: I am back with the psychologist who spent hours evaluating Casey Anthony. Now, if Casey had been found guilty of murdering her daughter, he would have testified at her sentencing. Harry Krop, forensic psychologist, what would you have said to the court at that point? KROP: First, let me preface, Dr. Drew, by saying that I have seen over 2,000 individuals who have been charged with first-degree murder. And I have written some research on the profiles of individuals who have been sentenced to death row.

And certainly, my evaluation of Casey and one of the things that I would have stressed, besides talking about a dysfunctional family, I would have talked about how, if she had engaged in the behavior that the jury would have found her guilty on, I would have talked about how it would have been out of character for what I knew about her, what I`ve learned about Casey. It would be out of character for what I`ve learned about her parenting, that she was not a negligent or abusive parent. I don`t think anybody has ever suggested that. And it also would have been out of character for -- in comparing to her prior history or lack of history of violence. So if there was a homicide, it would have been out of character for her. PINSKY: OK. But we do have -- but in terms of character, we have lying, we have sexual acting out, we have a vortex of chaos in her life. I mean, that`s what I am accustomed to from drug addicts and people with personality disorders. Now, you`re saying it`s sort of immaturity. And indeed, we see her putting tape and the little heart over the mouth, the tape, like treating the dead body like a little doll. But the developmental delays, are you saying a neurological problem where she has delayed developmentally? Or is that just a character problem? KROP: She is not delayed developmentally in terms of her physical development or her intellectual development. She has average I.Q. She`s in the 70th percentile compared to the overall population. But in terms of maturity -- and again, I think this even comes from Casey`s mouth -- she can`t believe how immature and how she behaved. And again, I emphasize that I am seeing a Casey who has been in jail for close to three years when I start seeing her. So she, herself, when she looks back in time, has a real hard time understanding how she behaved the way she behaved. PINSKY: All right. Dr. Krop, I think what everyone wants me to ask you, I`ll go ahead and ask, which is, do you think she had something to do with Caylee`s demise? KROP: Obviously, that`s a question that I have gotten a lot since I have spent a lot of time talking to her. And I hate to disappoint you and your viewers, but that`s an area that I am going to have to defer until Casey, herself, chooses to talk about that. PINSKY: All right. Well, I do appreciate you coming here. And I`ve got a million more questions. I hope you will come back, because you`re one person who spent a lot of time with her and is trained to evaluate. And I still can`t make sense of what has gone on here. I do know that she is a liar, and lying doesn`t usually exist as an isolated phenomenon. So I want to ask when you come back. KROP: I`d be happy to.

PINSKY: All right. Now, Dr. Krop, my viewers really reacted to that interview. One of the things they were skeptical about was whether or not your opinion was somehow adulterated by who you were working for, it`s the legal system after all. Are you hired by the defense? Are you hired by the courts? Do you work for somebody? Or is this purely an objective opinion? KROP: Well, as a forensic psychologist, I have ethics to be as objective as I can to give the opinions that are based on data, and who I get paid for is irrelevant to my opinions. I am not paid by the defense. I`m not paid by the state attorney`s office. The state of Florida is responsible for, eventually, paying my bill pursuant to a court order by Judge Perry. PINSKY: OK. KROP: So, I don`t feel like my opinions are paid for. PINSKY: OK. KROP: Although, I have to say, Dr. Drew, I have to say if I can just finish, after our show the other day, I received probably about ten phone calls which I would consider hate phone calls. So, I just couldn`t wait to get back and talk to you again. PINSKY: That is certainly not my intent. And people, come on, now. I mean, this is a psychologist hired by the court to do his job. Let`s just hear what he has to say and let`s draw our own conclusions about this. Now, one of the tests that you administered was the MMPI personality inventory scale, correct? KROP: That`s correct. PINSKY: And with that, it`s a very comprehensive personality profile. Again, with these two doctors talking, so I`m going to try to keep the viewers with us here on this and explain things as we go along. But one of the things that`s sort of built into these tests is these things called validity scales. People can manipulate the test. There`s an L scale for lying. People try and percept themselves from the best light. There is an F scale or faking or attempts of faking good or bad, and there is a K scale which is sort of defensiveness or more subtle, and should people showing -- trying to present themselves in the best way possible. These things come through on the tests. How did Casey score on these validity scales? KROP: Absolutely within normal limits. All validity scales were within normal limits. There was no evidence of what we call positive or negative impression management. The only scale that was elevated on the entire MMPI 2 was what we refer to as the MF scale which, basically, for a female suggests a person who has masculine type interests such athletics, which is consistent with Casey`s history especially in high school. She was a really good athlete, but everything -- every scale was within normal limits on that test. PINSKY: All right. Dr. Krop, you know, my peers are calling me. Everybody -- it`s amazing how many people have opinions about this case, and everyone that -- the psychologist, psychiatrist that I know that`s calling me or sort of ringing in, everyone has the same kind of opinion that how could she not be on what`s called a cluster B scale which are the sort of narcissistic and borderline disorders or there be some sort of cognitive or neuro-developmental problem?

My understanding is she actually had seizures in jail, is that right? And the question on the heels of that is, how can we be so wrong? How can we look at those things and just be professionals be so far off based on what we think we`re seeing here? KROP: Well, let me go back to the first issue, the one where when we talked the other day, I talked about no personality disorder, which I still stick to as far as all the data, but you asked me about personality traits, and one of the qualities of a forensic psychologist, hopefully, is a willingness to revisit certain issues if there is a question. And after you and I spoke, I did research. I went back to the data. I went back to al the interviews. I looked at the tapes, the depositions, and I would say that, again, not diagnosing her as a personality disorder, but certainly, I would agree that Casey does have narcissistic traits. And for your viewers, basically, that`s a person who is very self-centered and -PINSKY: Well, actually, I have a list. I put up a list right now of narcissistic traits if the control room can help me out here. Not the psychopathic one. I want the narcissistic disorders. There we go. Here are some traits that are actually in DSM-IVR, has a grandiose sense of self-important, preoccupied with fantasies about power and what not -- keep going. There should be more here on our scale. Arrogant, haughty behaviors towards others, lacks empathy and is unwilling to identify with the needs of others, particularly, in certain situations. And that kind of fits, right? KROP: I would agree with that, especially three years ago, when all of this was going on. I would certainly agree that those traits would have existed in Casey. PINSKY: OK. And the other thing is the lying. And this is the only thing that we all know, really, for sure was happening. There was horrible, wild lying going on. Lying doesn`t exist in a vacuum. There`s no such thing -- there`s no diagnosis as pathological lying. It goes with other disorders. Is this part of her narcissistic disorder or are there something called borderline traits here too? KROP: I don`t think there are borderline traits. Let me go back to the lying issue, because you and I also discussed that the other day. I went ahead and did extensive research on different types of lying, and I`m going to be a little hesitant here to be specific with regard to Casey, because I learned, actually from listening to your show before I came on the air about the lawsuits and they have to do -- rather the appellate issues having to do with her lying. So, I`m not going to be specific to Casey about lying, but the research I did shows that there`s three kinds of lying. One is pathological lying, and that`s not a diagnosis. It`s not in the DSM. The second type of lying is, I guess, what we call ordinary lying, and then, the third type of lying is what we would call chronic or rather obsessive- type of lying or habitual lying. I`ll let you or your panel or the viewers determine as far as it applies to Casey, but pathological lying is just as the word sounds. It`s very pathological. It`s an individual who has pretty much a life-long, very frequent, and repeated lies, often, and usually, without any particular motive, without any either psychological motive or external motive, and often, the person doesn`t even admit or recognize him or herself that they`re lying. PINSKY: Right.

KROP: The other thing about -- go ahead. PINSKY: I was saying -- when it gets severe, it`s in history on (ph), it can borderline situations where they really, I don`t believe -- reality sort of begs no issue. They just lie, and they kind of don`t process it normally. They sort of believe the lies in many respects. But let me ask you this. You had worked for Judge Perry before, is that right? KROP: Yes. Sort of an irony. I`ve done, I mentioned the other day, over 2,000 death penalty cases, first degree murder case. The very first one that I ever testified in was in the late 1970s, early 1980s. It happened to be Orlando. Judge Perry happened to be the prosecutor in that case. He actually, when we spoke the other day, he remembered the case. He remembered the experts. He remembered everything about the case. We`re talking a long time ago, but the sort of the twist of it is that, as a prosecutor, that was my first case as a defense expert. And he destroyed me on cross examination. It was humiliating. It was embarrassing. And I remember leaving the courtroom in Orlando telling myself I had two choices. One, never do one of these cases again, or two, never let this happen to me again. And I told Judge Perry the other day that he was really inspiration in motivating me to not let it happen the way he did it to me. So, I`ve been a little better prepared when I go to court. So, yes, it was nice seeing Judge Perry again, even though, I didn`t have to testify this time. PINSKY: Let me do one little piece of cross examination myself before I let you go here. And that is your jobs to go in there and kind of empathize with these people who are facing death penalties. I mean, that`s your job. Get in their head and sort of understand it and empathize with it. Do you think it`s possible that you`ve gone too far with Casey to see her point of view? That`s she`s manipulated you, and you`ve identified so strongly with her that, perhaps, it`s colored some of what you`re saying to us today? KROP: Dr. Drew, with all due respect, I don`t agree with you at all with regard to the empathy. I`ve listened to people like Aileen Wuornos and Danny Rolling in Florida and I have listened and tried to be as unemotional as I can listening to their stories. I don`t think -- could somebody like Casey pull the wool over my eyes? Sure. But, I really don`t think that happened. I`m looking at the data. I came in pretty late in the case. Casey has been nothing but professional in her action with me. Somebody, one of the blogs talked about her being flirtatious and probably flirtatious with all the men, Jose, and Cheney, and myself. I never had any of that. Do I empathize with her situation? We`re talking a about the life here and the death of a two-year-old girl. That`s who I empathize with. I feel that - although, I certainly admit that I can be fooled. I`m sure I`ve been fooled several times, but I don`t believe that Casey has fooled me. PINSKY: Well, thank you, Dr. Krop. You know, as someone myself who deals with patients that lie and manipulate, I often get fooled and I just come to expect that, but you do have some hard data, and thank you for sharing that with us, and I appreciate you coming back. I do. Thank you. KROP: Thank you.

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