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thread : what do you do for... fighters?
started at 06-30-06 08:12 pm by nyaricus
visit at http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167223
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[post 1]
author : nyaricus
date : 06-30-06 08:12 pm
title : what do you do for... fighters?

after an incrediably long wait, i bring you this next installment in my "what do
you do?" threads on each class. this week we are focusing on fighters.

so, what do you do? change skills? new abilities? more feats? what is in your
house rule rulebook?

for myself, i have given fighters (renamed "warriors") a floating bonus feat,
which allows them to, every day, change up one feat for another. they must meet
the prereqs for the feat and it must be drawn from the normal "bonus warrior
feats" list. it cannot be used for meeting the prereq of another feat, prc, etc.
you gain this at level 6, 12 and 18.

i have also considered bumping up their hd to a d12, but am still undecided.

as you you fine folks - what do you do for fighters?

what do you do for bards and barbarians were lost in the crash and will be
restarted after we get through to the wizard class. thanks for your patience.

what do you do for... clerics? (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=161828)

part 3 of my house ruled classes series

what do you do for... druids? (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=164617)

part 4 of my house ruled classes series

what do you do for... fighters? (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167223)

part 5 of my house ruled classes series

what do you do for... monks? (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167689)

part 6 of my house ruled classes series

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[post 2]
author : crgreathouse
date : 06-30-06 09:06 pm

i don't chnage the class as written, but i write new fighter feats. this helps
the class quite a bit.

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[post 3]
author : harmyn
date : 06-30-06 10:31 pm

at the moment they get the two extra skill points like i give all the character
classes. i also let them take any one additional skill as a class skill as long as
it fits whatever background they have dreamed up. but in an upcoming lankhmar
campaign (that is going to be heavily modified from the standard rules most likely
by cobbling together all sorts of options) i am going with only allowing variant
fighters.

all in all, i like fighters. they can hurt things.

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[post 4]
author : storyteller01
date : 06-30-06 10:33 pm

i allow them to use knowledge (tactics) to counter feints and tumble checks.

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[post 5]
author : land outcast
date : 06-30-06 10:43 pm

i allow them to use knowledge (tactics) to counter feints and tumble checks.

i'm totally stealing that for my thread on concentration as a combat skill

(allowing you to perform techniques which carry on through more than one round).
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2919950#post2919950
i was going to introduce knowledge (techniques/tactics) as a means to discover the
technique being used by your enemy (so, knowing how much it will take for him to
strike the decesive blow).

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[post 6]
author : nyaricus
date : 06-30-06 11:01 pm

i allow them to use knowledge (tactics) to counter feints and tumble checks.
i already have tumble be an opposed roll, imgs, so this isn't a problem.

however, know: tatics for feint is a good idea :) thanks for that!

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[post 7]
author : reanjr
date : 06-30-06 11:58 pm

mostly new feats.

add knowledge (nobility and royalty) as a class skill (for war leader types).
grant weapon finesse and expertise at first level instead of armor proficiency.
wacky combat maneuvers (a la book of iron might and iron heroes).
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[post 8]
author : arkhandus
date : 07-01-06 05:51 am

so far, my only changes to fighters have been in my rhunaria homebrew and my

aurelia homebrew. to note though, i run 3.0 rules, so a few of my changes may be
redundant in 3.5 (i know at least that knowledge-war is a fighter class skill in
3.5, frex).

in my rhunaria campaign, fighters get a few tweaks, mostly minor and improving
their options. the greater skills have pleased the group's fighter, and he
doesn't seem to have any problem with continuing in the fighter class except for
the fact that he's been considering using his character's background to try
multiclassing into samurai or the master samurai prestige class.

copied and pasted from my website: "a fighter in rhunaria adds the skills balance
(dex), intimidate (cha), knowledge [war] (int), listen (wis), spot (wis), and use
rope (dex) to their list of class skills. fighters of rhunaria also gain base
skill points of 4 per level instead of 2 per level. rhunarian fighters gain a +1
bonus on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, natural weapon damage rolls,
unarmed strike damage rolls, and grapple check damage rolls, once they reach 9th-
level, which increases to +2 at 17th-level. they also increase their base ac by
+1 at 13th-level, and again at 19th-level."

"lastly, fighters add the following feats to their list of selectable bonus feats:
chink in the armor, circle kick, close-quarters fighting, dragon's toughness, dual
strike, dwarf's toughness, flying kick, giant's toughness, greater two-weapon
fighting, hold the line, improved grapple, improved overrun, improved shield bash,
improved sunder, knock-down, multidexterity, off-hand parry, pin shield, power
critical, rapid reload, roundabout kick, sharp-shooting, shield charge, shield
expert, and snatch weapon. the feats flying kick, improved grapple, and
roundabout kick are from oriental adventures. circle kick, close-quarters
fighting, dual strike, hold the line, improved overrun, improved sunder, knock-
down, off-hand parry, pin shield, rapid reload, sharp-shooting, and shield expert
are feats from sword & fist. improved shield bash and shield charge are feats
from defenders of the faith. the feats dragon's toughness, dwarf's toughness,
giant's toughness, greater two-weapon fighting, multidexterity, and power critical
are from masters of the wild. chink in the armor and snatch weapon are feats from
song & silence."

my aurelia campaign has more extensive adjustments to all the classes, but i think
my aurelian fighter is more balanced even against standard core spellcasters.

aurelian fighters get a base of 4 skill points per level rather than 2, just like
my rhunarian fighters. their class skills are bluff (cha), climb (str), craft
(int), handle animal (cha), iaijutsu focus (cha), intimidate (cha), jump (str),
knowledge (all creature lore skills, taken individually) (int), knowledge (war)
(int), listen (wis), profession (wis), ride (dex), sense motive (wis), spot (wis),
and swim (str).

an aurelian fighter gets a special prowess fighting style at 5th-level and every 6
additional levels, like 11th and 17th. each of these is applied to a particular
weapon (a different weapon can be chosen each time, but each prowess can only be
applied once to any given weapon), and useable on any round the fighter wields
that weapon, but a fighter can only use one prowess fighting style each round.
the different prowess styles are berserker, deceiver, defender, destroyer,
harrier, pillager, preserver, prowler, rampager, and thunderer, each giving
different benefits and drawbacks when used, but generally the benefits are
slightly greater than the drawbacks.

also, aurelian fighters gain exclusive access to several additional special feats,
which are selectable as fighter bonus feats as well. i'll put the feats at the
bottom of the post.

lastly, they gain 3 new abilities at upper levels to help them compensate for
lacking a spellcaster's high-level attack and defense spells; agonizing strike at
13th-level, warrior's spirit at 15th-level, and evade rays at 19th-level.

agonizing strike: a veteran fighter knows how to strike enemies for maximum,
debilitating pain, even if that degree of pain is only fleeting. thus, a fighter
of 13th-level or higher can choose to take a -4 penalty on the attack and damage
with any weapon attack, natural weapon attack, or unarmed strike, in order to try
inflicting extra pain with that attack, by aiming at a particularly painful
location on the opponent. the damage penalty is handled like that from a low
strength score, though it does not replace any existing strength modifier; it is
separate. multiple agonizing strikes on a victim are cumulative in effect. for
every 10 feet of distance between the fighter and the victim (even in melee with
reach), at the time of making the agonizing strike attack, the fighter suffers a
-2 penalty on all dcs for agonizing strike.

an agonizing strike must be declared before the attack roll, and the fighter may
use this ability with any number of his or her attacks. agonizing strike only
functions against targets that are subject to both pain and critical hits, and
only against foes with discernable anatomy. agonizing strike cannot be used if
the opponent has 50% or more concealment, or any other 50% or greater miss chance,
or three-quarters cover or better, relative to the fighter. an opponent hit by an
agonizing strike may attempt a reflex save to avoid the agonizing strike effect,
but it does not negate the hit itself, just the additional effects from that use
of the agonizing strike ability. the reflex dc is equal to 5 + the fighter's
level in this class. this represents shifting just enough in position to make the
fighter's strike hit a less painful, but no less vital, location. the reflex save
cannot be attempted if paralyzed, immobilized, stunned, or denied a dexterity
bonus to ac against the fighter's attack.

if the agonizing strike hits, it deals damage and such as normal, but if it
successfully deals any piercing or slashing damage (after resistances and
reductions), the victim must roll a fortitude save to resist a severe,
debilitating surge of pain. the save dc is equal to 5 + the fighter's level in
this class + the fighter's intelligence modifier + the fighter's dexterity
modifier. if the opponent fails their save, the debilitating pain incurs a -2
circumstance penalty on attack rolls, reflex saves, ability checks, skill checks,
and any other rolls that specifically require concentration, focus, patience, or
calm.

additionally, as long as an agonizing strike's effect persists, the victim's

capacity to focus on special abilities and techniques is disrupted, such that the
victim must succeed at a concentration check in order to successfully cast,
manifest, or activate any spell, power, ability, or item that requires
concentration, focus, patience, or calm. the victim also must succeed at such a
check each round in order to maintain concentration on any given abilities,
spells, powers, or effects of these sorts, if they already require concentration
to maintain. the dc for these concentration checks, which are separate from any
others, is equal to 10 + the fighter's level in this class + the fighter's
intelligence modifier + the fighter's dexterity modifier. this concentration
check is attempted before any others, and failing this check prevents the victim
from using the relevant ability, spell, power, or item that round, but wastes the
same kind of action, for this round only, that would've been used to successfully
activate it otherwise.

the effects of each successful agonizing strike, if the victim failed their save,
last for 1 minute (10 rounds), or 30 seconds (5 rounds) if the character failed
their save by 5 points or less. the effects of each agonizing strike can also be
negated by fully healing the damage dealt by that agonizing strike, through any
means, even if it takes multiple effects or multiple rounds for the healing; in
these cases, though, the effects of the agonizing strike only fade after its
duration or after all the damage from it has healed. if the agonizing strike
caused a bleeding wound, such as with a magic weapon with the wounding quality,
that damage must also be healed before the agonizing strike's effect will fade;
however, regardless of such additional damage, the agonizing strike effect still
fades once its own duration has passed.

warrior's spirit (ex): fighters of 15th-level are quite experienced at resisting

magical and psionic effects, and their significant degree of personal development
rather than magical development has made them more resistant as well. the fighter
gains +2 on saving throws against magical effects, and on saving throws against
psionic effects.

evade rays (ex): a fighter of 19th-level is experienced enough to notice the signs
of a magical or psionic ray, and take proper measures to evade or deflect it.
whenever the fighter is subject to a magical or psionic ranged touch attack
(including a magic or psionic weapon that is somehow being used for a ranged touch
attack instead of a normal ranged attack), the fighter gains a +2 dodge bonus to
armor class against that attack, or +4 if wearing magical or psionic armor. this
increases by +2 if wielding a magical or psionic shield or melee weapon, as the
figher has learned how to use such an item's infused magic to actually deflect a
magical or psionic ray. wielding multiple such items does not further increase
the bonus. armor, shields, or weaponry that is only temporarily magical or
psionic does not help this ability of the fighter (though the dodge bonus does
apply against any ranged touch attacks by weapons that are only temporarily
magical or psionic).

---aurelian fighter exclusive feats---

armor familiarity: on achieving 4th-level or higher, as a feat the fighter may

take armor familiarity. they must choose a particular type of armor when they
take armor familiarity, such as studded leather, chain shirt, full plate, or
scalemail. armor familiarity increases the maximum dexterity bonus of a chosen
armor by up to 2 points when the fighter wears such armor. the armor check
penalty of the chosen armor is also reduced by up to 2 points when the fighter
wears it. also, armor familiarity increases the armor bonus of the chosen armor
by +1 when the fighter wears it, but only as long as the fighter is not being
denied a dexterity bonus to ac (whether or not their dexterity modifier is
positive), as the fighter knows how best to position himself before an attack and
allow the thickest armor to take the blow. the fighter must have dodge in order
to gain armor familiarity. armor familiarity cannot be gained for shields. the
fighter may take this feat as a bonus feat or as a regular one, and it may be
taken multiple times, but for a different type of armor each time.

shield familiarity: on achieving 6th-level or higher, as a feat the fighter may

take shield familiarity. shield familiarity grants the character a +1 dodge bonus
to ac when using a shield, and this is cumulative if the character uses multiple
shields at the same time. a character with shield familiarity also no longer
loses the ac bonus from a shield when using it to attack in melee, nor do they
lose a buckler's ac bonus when attacking with that arm. also, a character with
shield familiarity does not suffer a buckler's armor check penalty on attack rolls
when attacking with that arm or any other arm, which may aid certain feats. the
fighter must have dodge in order to gain shield familiarity. shield familiarity
may only be gained once.

combat versatility: after achieving at least 6th-level, as a feat the fighter may
take combat versatility. combat versatility reduces the fighter's nonproficiency
penalty with all weapons by 1 point. the fighter must have weapon focus with at
least three different weapons in order to gain combat versatility, and those three
weapons must differ in more than just size. one must be a ranged weapon, and one
other must be a melee weapon. for instance, to qualify for this feat the fighter
may have weapon focus in the longsword, composite longbow, and battleaxe, but
could not qualify with simply weapon focus in the shortsword, greatsword, and
scimitar. generally, use a weapon's damage type and general shape as guidelines;
for example, there are many kinds of swords, but rapiers and shortswords are used
differently, while all maces are similar to morningstars and flails, but a flail
is also used differently. the fighter may take this feat as a bonus feat or as a
regular one. combat versatility may be gained up to three times, in total
reducing nonproficiency penalties for weapons by 3, but each of those additional
times, the fighter must possess another weapon focus feat, with another different
weapon.

weapon expertise: on achieving 8th-level or higher, as a feat the fighter may take
weapon expertise. weapon expertise grants the fighter a +2 dodge bonus to armor
class when wielding a chosen weapon. if he or she wields more than one weapon of
that sort, they multiply this dodge bonus appropriately. if the chosen weapon is
a double weapon and is being wielded as such, the fighter gains double the normal
dodge bonus from it in this manner. the fighter must have weapon focus and weapon
specialization with that weapon to take weapon expertise. the fighter may not
gain weapon expertise with a projectile weapon, only with melee weapons and
throwing weapons, as projectile weapons are not built durable enough for
deflecting or blocking attacks. the fighter may take this feat as a bonus feat or
as a regular one, and it may be taken multiple times, but for a different type of
weapon each time.

lethal blow: on achieving 12th-level or higher, as a feat the fighter may take
lethal blow. lethal blow increases the critical multiplier of a chosen weapon by
1. the fighter must have both weapon focus and weapon specialization with that
weapon to take lethal blow. if the weapon is a ranged weapon, the critical
multiplier increase only applies if the target is within 90 feet, because only at
that range can the fighter strike precisely enough to hit more effectively. the
fighter may take this feat as a bonus feat or as a regular one, and it may be
taken multiple times, but for a different type of weapon each time.

grandmaster: on achieving 14th-level or higher, as a feat the fighter may take

grandmaster. grandmaster adds a +2 attack and damage bonus with a chosen weapon.
the fighter must have weapon focus, weapon specialization, and weapon expertise
with that weapon to take grandmaster. if the weapon is a ranged weapon, the
damage bonus only applies if the target is within 60 feet, because only at that
range can the fighter strike precisely enough to hit more effectively. in
addition, the fighter's weapon specialization damage bonus with that weapon
becomes effective up to 60 feet as well. the fighter no longer automatically
misses with the chosen weapon on a natural attack roll of 1. the fighter may take
this feat as a bonus feat or as a regular one, and it may be taken multiple times,
but for a different type of weapon each time.
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[post 9]
author : joker
date : 07-01-06 05:58 am

mostly new feats (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=166981) (it needs a plug

:)), but also, lately i've been thinking about giving them tactical, combat form
or weapon style feats at 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th level if they meet the
prerequisites.

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[post 10]
author : ep
date : 07-01-06 07:44 am

skills seem to be the biggest problem with fighters - not the number of skill
points, but the skills they're allowed to select. i give any fighter the option
to switch out a class skill for a different skill to account for the style of
fighter they wish to become. not all fighters are hulking masses of steel and
there are very few animals, let alone horses, to make the ride skill a worthy
class skill.

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[post 11]
author : tonguez
date : 07-01-06 10:04 am

i give finesse as a free feat at lvl 1

weapon focus can be used in place of combat expertise as a prereq to disarm and
feint etc

weapon grips feat (prereq greater weapon focus): allows that fighter to add
special qualities to their weapon including things like keen, vicious, wounding,
throwing and dr penetrating

bonus feats

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[post 12]
author : the jester
date : 07-01-06 10:37 am

tons of new feats. tons and tons. lots of 'em. :) especially higher-level
ones.

really, imho that's what fighters really need.

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[post 13]
author : paraxis
date : 07-01-06 01:13 pm
have not done this yet but toying around with idea of letting them lose heavy
armor/tower shield for +2 skill points a level and adding any 2 skills to list,
also can give up medium for another +2 to each so total with only light armor
6+int bonus skill points per level and 4 extra skills on list of their choice.

also second the lots of extra feats especialy at higher levels. was disapointed in
phb2 weapon feats having +bab as prereq instead of levels of fighter.

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[post 14]
author : talic
date : 07-01-06 01:58 pm

like paraxis, i have no problem granting additional class skills and points in
place of armor for a character who has a specific type of fighter in mind. for
example, the player who wants a desert nomad type can trade off his heavier armor
for maybe survival, spot, and whatever else he can convince me is appropriate.

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[post 15]
author : liquidsabre
date : 07-01-06 02:18 pm

we use weapon groups for character weapon proficiencies. fighters get to take
weapomn focus/specialization with entire weapon groups (axes, bows, havy blades,
etc.) and not just individual weapons.

with the phb ii high-level fighter feats and a few others, that's all a fighter
needs. though with great class ideas like the marshal and the knight classes i've
been considering turning their special abilities into tactical feat trees for
fighters to make use of as alternatives to the normal fighter feats/styles. the
command series of tactical feats and the knight series of tactical feats.

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[post 16]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-01-06 04:07 pm

weapon grips feat (prereq greater weapon focus): allows that fighter to add
special qualities to their weapon including things like keen, vicious, wounding,
throwing and dr penetrating
i scanned over the other posts, but this one really stuck out for me - tonguez,
can you extrapolate and post these up? i've love to see what you've done man :)

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[post 17]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-01-06 04:13 pm

warrior's spirit (ex): fighters of 15th-level are quite experienced at resisting

magical and psionic effects, and their significant degree of personal development
rather than magical development has made them more resistant as well. the fighter
gains +2 on saving throws against magical effects, and on saving throws against
psionic effects.
wow dude, you have a ton (!) of changes, however, this one here really stuck out
for me. i like it because fighters don't get any magical abilities - but defense
from magic? gravy :cool:

for a standard campaign, i'd let this slide in for sure - maybe +1 at 3rd, +2 at
9th and +3 at 15th, to intersperse with my floating bonus feats :d

thank you for the great idea man :d

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[post 18]
author : nellisir
date : 07-02-06 07:40 am

d12 hit dice; improved armor proficiency at 7th level (moves at base speed in
medium or heavy armor); ua weapon groups.

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[post 19]
author : ericnoah
date : 07-02-06 08:22 am

i would start by not forcing the fighter to take medium armor, heavy armor or
shield proficiency at 1st level; convert those into bonus feat slots. that way, a
fighter who wanted to go down a different path could do that more easily -- take
improved unarmed strike or whatever.

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[post 20]
author : land outcast
date : 07-02-06 09:43 am

i would start by not forcing the fighter to take medium armor, heavy armor or
shield proficiency at 1st level; convert those into bonus feat slots. that way, a
fighter who wanted to go down a different path could do that more easily -- take
improved unarmed strike or whatever.

wow! that's just simple... and efficient...

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[post 21]
author : paraxis
date : 07-02-06 11:21 am

i would start by not forcing the fighter to take medium armor, heavy armor or
shield proficiency at 1st level; convert those into bonus feat slots. that way, a
fighter who wanted to go down a different path could do that more easily -- take
improved unarmed strike or whatever.

i toyed with this idea too, but seemed unbalancing. i mean say i am a
rogue,monk,ranger, build for one level of fighter i get 4 extra fighter feats. i
don't want armor prof and a one level dip for 4 feats sounds to powerful.

normal bonus feat+(1) from tower shield+(1) from heavy armor+(1) from medium armor
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[post 22]
author : land outcast
date : 07-02-06 11:46 am

yeha, the level dipping would be annoying.

just change it to:

a bonus feat at level 3, a bonus feat at level 5, and a bonus feat a level 8

(hum... somehow sounds wrong... not sure why yet)

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[post 23]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-02-06 02:06 pm

yeha, the level dipping would be annoying.

just change it to:

a bonus feat at level 3, a bonus feat at level 5, and a bonus feat a level 8

(hum... somehow sounds wrong... not sure why yet)

well, you could say that those bonus feats have to be spent on [exotic] weapon
profs, armour profs, shield profs or improved unarmed strike, all at first level.

and it sounds wrong because they are now giving pure bonus feats till level 5 -
which is really nice, and simply too good.

nice idea eric, thanks for contributing.

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[post 24]
author : dante58701
date : 07-02-06 02:11 pm

i use carnifex, fighters are more suited for the gentler warriors. carnifex are
awesome. but when i do play fighters, i mix it up a little, a smidgen of
barbarian, a dash of rogue.

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[post 25]
author : sir brennen
date : 07-02-06 02:23 pm

imc, i'm also toying with the idea of no heavy armor prof. at first level (i can't
see a fighter without medium armor or shield prof. as part of basic training,
though.)

to compensate, a fighter earns a bonus feat at 3rd level, though it's from a much
narrower list, focusing on defensive combat - heavy armor prof, armor
specialization, dodge, two weapon defense, combat expertise, etc. (the final list
is still being worked on.) the higher level avoids cherry-picking a figher level,
and the list is focused on what it's replacing - the defensive capability of heavy
armor.

imc, there's no chain shirts or mail, so heavy armor as a prof. itself is still
pretty attractive. the class ability may end up being called defensive
specialization, rather than just "bonus feat".

now, thanks to this thread, i may have to add skill focus: knowledge [tactics] to
that list :d

other changes include use of weapon groups, and the focus and specialization feats
apply to the entire group.

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[post 26]
author : sir brennen
date : 07-02-06 02:36 pm

i allow them to use knowledge (tactics) to counter feints and tumble checks.
what else does this skill do in your campaign. do you have a write-up of it
anywhere?

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[post 27]
author : sravoff
date : 07-02-06 08:47 pm

i give finesse as a free feat at lvl 1

weapon focus can be used in place of combat expertise as a prereq to disarm and
feint etc

weapon grips feat (prereq greater weapon focus): allows that fighter to add
special qualities to their weapon including things like keen, vicious, wounding,
throwing and dr penetrating

bonus featsare you using woodelf's weapons as special effects?

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[post 28]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-03-06 12:03 am

are you using woodelf's weapons as special effects?

speaking of which, does anyone have a link? that was a great thread :)

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[post 29]
author : land outcast
date : 07-03-06 12:09 am

yessir!
here! (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2851164#post2851164)

and here's the pdf, just because i finally learnt how to make urls nice-looking
(http://www.enworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17567)

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[post 30]
author : tequila sunrise
date : 07-03-06 09:13 am

i add superior focus (lvl 16) and superior specialization (lvl 20) as feat
options. it gives the fighter something that they can definitively do better than
barbs (damage) in a straight fight, which they are supposed to be best at. it also
gives a pure fighter an advantage at high levels, for those who complain that
taking more than 12 fighter levels is pointless. in general, i don't think that
fighters need fixing (they're actually my favorite warrior-type class). i know
that a lot of players think of them as weak or 'vanilla', but i've found that
those are the players that lack creativity and rp skill in general.

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[post 31]
author : evilgm
date : 07-03-06 12:04 pm

i give every class more abilities, in fact, something at every level.

some of the highlights for fighters:

combat weaponry (ex): at 3rd level or higher, a fighter may use weapons with which
he is not proficient at a -2 penalty on attack rolls (instead of the usual -4).
he may also throw weapons with no range increment at this same penalty. in
addition, throwing any two-handed or smaller weapon in this manner is a standard
action, not a full-round action.

second wind (ex): at 3rd level, a fighter can heal himself of a number of points
of damage equal to his fighter level plus his constitution bonus (minimum 1) once
per day as a free action.

intimidate (ex): at 5th level, a fighter receives a +2 bonus to all intimidate

checks. every five fighter levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th) this bonus
increases by +2.

improved charge (ex): at 7th level or higher, a charging fighter adds +4 to his
attack roll (or +4 bonus on the strength check to bullrush or overrun). he still
suffers the -2 penalty to ac until his next turn.

improved combat reflexes (ex): at 9th level or higher, a fighter receives

additional attacks of opportunity per round. each attack of opportunity is taken
at the fighter's highest bab.

combat senses (ex): starting at 11th level (and every two levels thereafter), the
fighter may choose one of the following: a +1 to initiative, a +1 dodge bonus to
ac, or a +1 to reflex saves. these can be taken multiple times and stack.

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[post 32]
author : ep
date : 07-03-06 12:21 pm

i give every class more abilities, in fact, something at every level.

very cool. what else do you give to the other classes, i wonder?

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[post 33]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-03-06 02:05 pm

very cool. what else do you give to the other classes, i wonder?
perhaps he could contirubute to the other what do you do threads, in this case -
or even start up his own [personally, i'd love to see both]. i'd rather not
threadjack, anyways.

edit: thanks for the links lo

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[post 34]
author : tonguez
date : 07-03-06 02:10 pm

are you using woodelf's weapons as special effects?

yes essentially, although not completely

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[post 35]
author : shieldhaven
date : 07-03-06 06:50 pm

i give fighters profession and knowledge (warrior tradition) as class skills,

because a) why on earth would they automatically be worse at a generic skill like
profession than a wizard? and b) surely even the fighters have something in which
they are well-suited to study and grow knowledgeable.

haven

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[post 36]
author : green slime
date : 07-04-06 05:24 am

i give fighters a feat every level, instead of every second level.

that's it.

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[post 37]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-04-06 03:59 pm

i give fighters a feat every level, instead of every second level.

that's it.
yikes! i've heard about people doing that before, and it just kinda seems like
overkill to me - what's your reasoning behind it?

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[post 38]
author : airwalkrr
date : 07-05-06 12:55 am

i scanned over the other posts, but this one really stuck out for me - tonguez,
can you extrapolate and post these up? i've love to see what you've done man :)

i too, really like that idea and would be interested to hear more.

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[post 39]
author : green slime
date : 07-05-06 09:20 am

yikes! i've heard about people doing that before, and it just kinda seems like
overkill to me - what's your reasoning behind it?

not really overkill.

firstly, it appears as overkill, but isn't really. it just an attempt to keep the
fighter class interesting throughout all 20 levels, in competition with the
mages/clerics of the world, and specifically to combat all the prc's which grant
new shiny abilities every level.

what does a fighter do? he does nothing else but fight. he gets his thrilling two
skill points per level. "jump and climb? w00t! and at 8th level, i can acquire
boots of flying and never use those skills again!"

by core rules, fighters gain less feats than wizards do spells: the counter
argument being, "but spells don't last all day!" which is only partially true, as
they can at higher levels. secondly, the feats are seldomly such that they are
always relevant to the situation at hand. instead, a great many are situational.
improved grapple, isn't going to get used every fight, unless you decide to really
specialise along this line.

by the core rules, there are some really dead levels for fighters:
5th (+1 bab, +2 skills, +d10 hp.... must take hours to level up).
7th (same)
11th (same)
13th (same)
17th (same)
19th (same)

and that is counting the bonus feat every third level, which everyone gets, as an
"exciting" level.
by similar comparison the rogue:
14th (first level of no feat, no special ability, counting standard feat every
third level, as a big bonus)
20th (same as above)

barbarian:
doesn't happen!

paladin's and ranger's are a special case, as they are extremely weak
spellcasters: something should be done about
1) their spellcasting, and
2) the ranger's dire lamb pet. (3.5 fixed the paladin's never-present mount
syndrome)

now, in this specific campaign, i have shuffled around which classes are available
to which race, to provide more specific flavour to each race. rangers and
barbarians are not available to humans: only paladins, fighters, monks and
hexblades of the martial classes. paladins have had their remove disease ability
ability upgraded to a remove affliction, which affects most low level ailments:
disease, poison, blindness, deafness, and functions as lesser restoration to boot.
(its 1/week at low levels for crying out loud!!!!)

paladins caster level is set to half their paladin level, or their paladin level
-3, which ever is greater. otherwise there is no point to having gmw or similar.

other changes to paladins i cannot remember right now.

rogues get more skill points.

i have strived for all classes to receive something iconic for their class at each
level.

one reason that fighters in 3.5 are especially weak choices for players after
level 4 because there are prestige classes which give stuff away every level. the
easiest way to compensate for this, and to attract players to at least consider
staying on the straight and narrow, is not to ban all prcs outright, nor weaken
them, but to make sure that each class is attractive as an option in its own
right. true spellcasters are always attractive: they gain new spell levels every
second level, always gain access to new toys (more spells). as it stands today in
core, the poor fighter is the least attractive.

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[post 40]
author : dog moon
date : 07-05-06 09:22 am

yikes! i've heard about people doing that before, and it just kinda seems like
overkill to me - what's your reasoning behind it?

now what would be awesome is to have that in a campaign which already gives
everyone one feat per level. think of all the featy goodness! :d

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[post 41]
author : monboesen
date : 07-05-06 09:50 am

i let fighters waive attribute requirements on fighter bonus feats.

for instance a fighter in my games can choose combat expertise with one of his
fighter bonus feats even if his intelligence is lower than 13.

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[post 42]
author : storyteller01
date : 07-05-06 05:52 pm

what else does this skill do in your campaign. do you have a write-up of it
anywhere?

not an official write up, since only one player in my group has played a fighter,
and he didn't stay with us long (rather annoying, that). so far, it's had mostly
npc use, and it's becoming the fighter's version of the bard's perform skill (one
skill; many uses)...

to date, it's given minor bonuses to combat if preplanned, depending on the type
of combat. ambushes may get a bonus to initiative, defending in a siege may give
bonuses to fortification, bonus cover may be given for base camp against snipers
when setting down for the night, etc. nothing set in stone, the bonuses aren't
large enough to be game breaking, and large amounts of time are needed to make it
effective.

in combat (not planning it), it's mostly used to counter feints, tumbling, and
hide checks for snipers after their initial attack (if i were that sniper, where
would i be hiding??). i converted the oa iaijutsu skill for ranged weapons, and a
ranger in the group has the skill. it's helped immensely in keeping npc fighters
alive (no range penalties :) ).

i developed it during 3.0 (the great nebulous knowledge rolls), and i never
bothered to convert to 3.5. i don't have a lot pinned down.

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[post 43]
author : storyteller01
date : 07-05-06 06:41 pm

mostly new feats.

add knowledge (nobility and royalty) as a class skill (for war leader types).
grant weapon finesse and expertise at first level instead of armor proficiency.
wacky combat maneuvers (a la book of iron might and iron heroes).

i particularly like the arcane combat feat that launches the opponents twice the
damage received in feet, straight up. :d

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[post 44]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-06-06 12:15 am
not really overkill.

firstly, it appears as overkill, but isn't really. it just an attempt to keep the
fighter class interesting throughout all 20 levels, in competition with the
mages/clerics of the world, and specifically to combat all the prc's which grant
new shiny abilities every level.

what does a fighter do? he does nothing else but fight. he gets his thrilling two
skill points per level. "jump and climb? w00t! and at 8th level, i can acquire
boots of flying and never use those skills again!"

by core rules, fighters gain less feats than wizards do spells: the counter
argument being, "but spells don't last all day!" which is only partially true, as
they can at higher levels. secondly, the feats are seldomly such that they are
always relevant to the situation at hand. instead, a great many are situational.
improved grapple, isn't going to get used every fight, unless you decide to really
specialise along this line.

by the core rules, there are some really dead levels for fighters:
5th (+1 bab, +2 skills, +d10 hp.... must take hours to level up).
7th (same)
11th (same)
13th (same)
17th (same)
19th (same)

and that is counting the bonus feat every third level, which everyone gets, as an
"exciting" level.
okay, that is fair enough - i'd just try to do something a little more original
with those 'dead' levels - like add in that warriors spirit ability from above. i
dunno, i guess i think there's only so much flavour to be squeezed from a pile of
bonus feats.

i have strived for all classes to receive something iconic for their class at each
level.

one reason that fighters in 3.5 are especially weak choices for players after
level 4 because there are prestige classes which give stuff away every level. the
easiest way to compensate for this, and to attract players to at least consider
staying on the straight and narrow, is not to ban all prcs outright, nor weaken
them, but to make sure that each class is attractive as an option in its own
right. true spellcasters are always attractive: they gain new spell levels every
second level, always gain access to new toys (more spells). as it stands today in
core, the poor fighter is the least attractive.
actually, i think the monk is the least attractive class - although this is simply
due to flavour and not mechanics in and of itself (someone from wotc, however,
really needs to ninja-kick that class into oriental adventures though). anyways, i
can see your rational in this, but i'd just do something a little different in my
game. tomayto, tomahto iows.

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[post 45]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-06-06 12:26 am
now what would be awesome is to have that in a campaign which already gives
everyone one feat per level. think of all the featy goodness! :d
actually, i have taken the "middle path" and give one at every odd-numberd level -
1, 3, 5, etc. my players love it 'cause it gives them way more wicked options to
choose from.

i let fighters waive attribute requirements on fighter bonus feats.

for instance a fighter in my games can choose combat expertise with one of his
fighter bonus feats even if his intelligence is lower than 13.
that's another *great* idea that is so yoinked for my games! probably i'd let them
treat ability scores as if they were 2 points higher - so that way a fighter with
15 dex could get improved twf fighting, but not greater, which i think is fair :)

cheers!

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[post 46]
author : green slime
date : 07-06-06 05:54 am

okay, that is fair enough - i'd just try to do something a little more original
with those 'dead' levels - like add in that warriors spirit ability from above. i
dunno, i guess i think there's only so much flavour to be squeezed from a pile of
bonus feats.

i'd rather stick to the generic idea of feats and let the player decide and focus
his character as he wishes along the intent of the original game design, myself.
nothing says those warrior spirit abilities can't be translated into feats that
are made available to fighters alone, at certain preset levels.

actually, i think the monk is the least attractive class - although this is simply
due to flavour and not mechanics in and of itself (someone from wotc, however,
really needs to ninja-kick that class into oriental adventures though).

imo, the biggest drawback to the monk is its predictability. there really isn't
much else to synergise with, or a lot of customization possibilities.

anyways, i can see your rational in this, but i'd just do something a little
different in my game. tomayto, tomahto iows.

and until i join wotc's dnd ninja-police death-squad, you are welcome maintain
that illusion of choice. then i'll come knocking on your door, unplug your pc, and
exorcise the heresies from your mind!! :d

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[post 47]
author : arkhandus
date : 07-06-06 06:34 am

you may be more pleased with the aurelian monk, when i get around to finishing
some final details and posting it on my thread. or maybe you just meant above
that you prefer to use feats to handle everything, green slime. *shrug*

*breaks out the chainsaw and maniacally hacks away at his threadjack, until all
that remains is a tattered scrap*
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[post 48]
author : galeros
date : 07-06-06 07:42 am

i have found that fighters are pretty well balanced despite what a lot of threads
say about them. they do what they are supposed to do well. :)

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[post 49]
author : green slime
date : 07-06-06 08:35 am

you may be more pleased with the aurelian monk, when i get around to finishing
some final details and posting it on my thread. or maybe you just meant above
that you prefer to use feats to handle everything, green slime. *shrug*

feats for fighters, yes, not for monks. i found your tidbits on monks interesting,
but we should probably start another thread for that...

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[post 50]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-06-06 01:37 pm

i'd rather stick to the generic idea of feats and let the player decide and focus
his character as he wishes along the intent of the original game design, myself.
nothing says those warrior spirit abilities can't be translated into feats that
are made available to fighters alone, at certain preset levels.
true, nothing does say that - but i think that the fighter has so few magical
options open to him (read: none, other than magic items) that to get a passive
bonus liek that, just from taking levels in fighter, is a really good 'keeper'
factor. jmho, ymmv, and all that :)

imo, the biggest drawback to the monk is its predictability. there really isn't
much else to synergise with, or a lot of customization possibilities.
well, there are (admittantly) some nice fighting-school choices in ua and online
on the srd, which i've allowed one of my players use before.

and until i join wotc's dnd ninja-police death-squad, you are welcome maintain
that illusion of choice. then i'll come knocking on your door, unplug your pc, and
exorcise the heresies from your mind!! :d
"i'm taking the blue pill!"

anyways, since there has ben a bit of thread-jacking in regards the the monk class
(arkhandus, no worries), here's my new what do you do for... monks?
(http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2930264#post2930264) thread. enjoy :)

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[post 51]
author : airwalkrr
date : 07-06-06 06:47 pm
fighters imc gain leadership for free at 5th level (a level earlier than most
character classes) plus the landlord feat (from stronghold builder's guide) at 9th
level. they also gain bonuses to their leadership score at 13th and to their
landlord level at 17th. this is reminiscent of the fighter of olde, who gained
followers and a noble title later in levels. the leadership and landlord levels
only apply to fighter levels however. it gives fighters an incentive to both stick
with the fighter class and to have a decent charisma.

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[post 52]
author : el-remmen
date : 07-06-06 09:58 pm

nothing different, except some extra class skills.

i like the idea of using knowledge (tactics) to counter feints. consider it

yoinked.

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[post 53]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-07-06 03:25 am

fighters imc gain leadership for free at 5th level (a level earlier than most
character classes) plus the landlord feat (from stronghold builder's guide) at 9th
level. they also gain bonuses to their leadership score at 13th and to their
landlord level at 17th. this is reminiscent of the fighter of olde, who gained
followers and a noble title later in levels. the leadership and landlord levels
only apply to fighter levels however. it gives fighters an incentive to both stick
with the fighter class and to have a decent charisma.
i've toyed around with that idea, although my group never really got to high
levels or followed the ruels that well in general in our brief year we played
ad&d.

however, sounds like you have an interesting varient here :) neat.

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[post 54]
author : airwalkrr
date : 07-07-06 04:51 am

oh yes, i also give fighters a bonus weapon group proficiency at 3rd, 7th, 11th,
15th, and 19th (i use the weapon group variant). this gives fighters something at
every level.

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[post 55]
author : dante58701
date : 07-07-06 05:25 am

isnt that making them too powerful...they might get epic on you. :)

i prefer to keep things simple...by never playing pure fighters. i mean, what
individual, who isnt manufactured, would ever be a purist fighter. just add rogue
levels or something. anything else is just over complicated. :)

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[post 56]
author : arkhandus
date : 07-07-06 02:12 pm

barring ownership of the player's handbook ii or complete warrior.......the

chivalrous knight with no mind/desire for politics is a pure fighter. at least,
the chivalrous knight who isn't one of the lucky few chosen by the divine to be
gifted with paladin-ship (paladin standards are rather absolutely, unyieldingly,
unforgivingly rigid, y'know). the mercenary captain with brass tacks and no
tolerance for sissy traps and backstabbing is a pure fighter. the pirate scum who
raids and pillages for a living, under the direction of a more clever captain, may
be a pure fighter (but just might have bothered learning to backstab and lay traps
as a rogue, at the expense of real face-to-face combat ability from fighter bab
and feats and hp). the obedient samurai who lives to serve and protect his daimyo
is a pure fighter.

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[post 57]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-08-06 12:39 am

isnt that making them too powerful...they might get epic on you. :)
well, considering that you can never use more than, what, two weapons in a round,
giving out the ability to use more weapon groups doesn't seem that bad. however,
since weapon groups are feats, this is something i personally woudn't do. jmho, of
course.

i prefer to keep things simple...by never playing pure fighters. i mean, what
individual, who isnt manufactured, would ever be a purist fighter. just add rogue
levels or something. anything else is just over complicated. :)
fair enough, but i wasn't asking that question (that is, how you play fighters -
what i was asking was what do you do to house rule them, or if you don't. you
state neither....

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[post 58]
author : atreides
date : 07-14-06 03:38 pm

hd: d10
bab: +1 - +20
skills: 2 + int per level
balance, battle, climb, craft, handle animal, heal, intimidate, jump,
knowledge (history), ride, swim, tumble
saving throws: same as phb

level special

1st weapon feat, bonus feat

2nd combat awareness (+2)
3rd bonus feat
4th weapon feat
5th armor mastery (light/med)
6th bonus feat
7th weapon feat
8th bonus feat, skill focus: intimidate
9th armor mastery (heavy)
10th weapon feat
11th bonus feat, combat awareness (+4)
12th alertness
13th weapon feat, bonus feat
14th die hard
15th bonus feat, armor mastery (+1 max dex)
16th weapon feat
17th battle-hardened
18th bonus feat
19th weapon feat
20th ascension, armor mastery (+1dr)

combat awareness: +2 initiative, +2 will saves versus fear

+4 initiative, +4 will saves versus fear

battle-hardened: may re-roll each initiative roll once, taking better of 2 rolls
may substitute ranks of intimidate for the die roll for all
saving throws versus fear

armor mastery: +1 ac with light/medium

armor mastery: +1 ac with heavy
armor mastery: +1 max. dex. bonus with all armors
armor mastery: +1 dr with all armors

weapon feats:

player may select one of the following weapon feats for which he meets the
qualifications:

weapon focus
greater weapon focus
weapon specialization
greater weapon specialization
improved critical
weapon optimization

note: greater weapon focus stacks with weapon focus, greater weapon specialization
stacks with weapon specialization

note: all weapon feats apply to a weapon group, not an individual weapon

weapon optimization (fighter feat, weapon feat)

choose any weapon that she has greater weapon specialization in, the fighter gets
to calculate her number of attacks by subtracting 4 instead of 5 from her bab.
this ability may be taken more than once. it is applied to a different weapon
group each time.

ascension (pick one)

weapon ascendancy: any two weapon feats, or epic weapon focus,
or epic weapon specialization

dodge ascendancy: epic dodge, may ignore normal qualifications

skill ascendancy: 40 skill points

toughness ascendancy: 40 hp

other options for ascension are available with dm permission.

also - i use weapon proficiency groups from ua - and the fighter is the only one
allowed to spend one of their 'initial' feats on exotics (so fighters can access
exotics without a feat - but everyone else must spend a feat to do so). i also
rewrote the armor table and use armor as damage reduction so that changes things a
bit as well.

by design my fighter is designed to be able to out damage anyone when it comes to

armed combat - that is their specialty - their 'role' so to speak - and i designed
the class to fulfill that role.

feel free to critique it - input is always welcome. :d

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[post 59]
author : atreides
date : 07-14-06 03:50 pm

doh! double post.

move along now - nothing to see here - just a noob in action - move along.

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[post 60]
author : storyteller01
date : 07-14-06 09:35 pm

noit technically a fighter in the purist sense, but has anyone thought of allowing
the oa/rokugan feats to help counter magic heavy campaigns?

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[post 61]
author : arkhandus
date : 07-14-06 09:50 pm

what do you mean exactly, storyteller?

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[post 62]
author : storyteller01
date : 07-14-06 09:56 pm
letting fighters the void use feats from rokugan instead of just the samurai. some
of those are very nasty.

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[post 63]
author : kisanji arael
date : 07-15-06 01:34 am

at fifth, tenth, and fifteenth levels, i let the fighter choose one group of
weapoinry that he now deals one step more damage with. the step up at tenth cannot
be the same as the step-up at fifth. then, at seventh and thirteenth levels, i
allow them to choose a weapon they own, which is always considered to be one level
stronger magically than it actually is. again, these can't stack, though they can
change which weapons the bonuses apply to once a week. still thinking about
giving them something at level 20, though.

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[post 64]
author : raven crowking
date : 07-15-06 09:27 am
title : what do you do for fighters?

i use a red wine marinade with garlic, onions, and trade spices. marinade
overnight, then slowly roast over an open fire.

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[post 65]
author : airwalkrr
date : 07-15-06 11:33 am

1st - bonus feat

2nd - bonus feat
3rd - weapon group
4th - bonus feat
5th - leadership
6th - bonus feat
7th - weapon group
8th - bonus feat
9th - landlord
10th - bonus feat
11th - weapon group
12th - bonus feat
13th - great renown
14th - bonus feat
15th - weapon group
16th - bonus feat
17th - henchmen
18th - bonus feat
19th - weapon group
20th - bonus feat

weapon group: at 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th, and
19th level) a fighter gains proficiency with an additional weapon group. see
unearthed arcana for details on the weapon group variant.
leadership: at 5th level, a fighter gains leadership. his leadership score is
based on his fighter levels only, however the maximum level of his cohort is based
on his character level.

landlord: at 9th level, a fighter becomes a landlord. he must swear fealty to a

leige, either a lord, king, church, or similar entity to gain this benefit. his
stronghold allowance is based on his fighter levels only. this grants the fighter
an additional +2 bonus to his leadership score. see the landlord feat in
stronghold builder's guide.

great renown: at 13th level, a fighter gains great renown for his fighting
exploits, granting him a +2 bonus to his leadership score.

henchmen: at 17th level, a fighter's receives henchmen in addition to his cohort.

a henchman follows the same rules as a cohort, only they must all be two or more
levels lower than the cohort. a fighter may have one henchman for every five class
levels (round down).

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[post 66]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-15-06 08:31 pm

battle-hardened: may re-roll each initiative roll once, taking better of 2 rolls
not a bad idea, this; although likely i'd use it as a feat rather than a special
ability

greater initiative
prereqs: improved initiative, bab +1
benefit: you may re-roll initiative once at the beginning of an encounter, taking
the preferred of the two rolls.
normal: you roll initiative once.
special: you may not take this feat more than once t gain multiple re-rolls.

at fifth, tenth, and fifteenth levels, i let the fighter choose one group of
weapoinry that he now deals one step more damage with. the step up at tenth cannot
be the same as the step-up at fifth.
now that's a cool idea :d i like, and may have to steal :evillaugh:

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[post 67]
author : kisanji arael
date : 07-16-06 12:12 pm

always eager to please.

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[post 68]
author : pssthpok
date : 07-16-06 12:44 pm

absolutely nothing.
fighters only need more feats.
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[post 69]
author : atreides
date : 07-17-06 10:26 pm

greater initiative
prereqs: improved initiative, bab +1
benefit: you may re-roll initiative once at the beginning of an encounter, taking
the preferred of the two rolls.
normal: you roll initiative once.
special: you may not take this feat more than once t gain multiple re-rolls.

now that's a cool idea :d i like, and may have to steal :evillaugh:[/quote]

not really a fighter feat though - any character with lots of sneak attack dice
will be all over this feat - a fighter may choose to take it - but the rogues get
quite a bit more mileage out of it then he does.

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[post 70]
author : darkkestral
date : 07-18-06 06:26 pm

yeah, i'd agree with atreides. i'd consider it a must-have for everybody except
perhaps fighters. as a rogue, barb, or monk, speed/reaction-time is critical for
the class. fighters not so much. their schtick is being the guy that can do what
he does forever without too many limits.

i'd actually give them magic resistance so that, after a while, they have fairly
high built-in spell resistance and the capacity to increase ac vs. magical attack
to normal armored levels. this would hopefully make them good in high level play,
as mages would have to work specifically to take them out.

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[post 71]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-20-06 05:30 pm

not really a fighter feat though - any character with lots of sneak attack dice
will be all over this feat - a fighter may choose to take it - but the rogues get
quite a bit more mileage out of it then he does.

well, not a fighter-only feat - but i'd let it be on their list. the prereqs are
low, i know that - heck a 1st level human fighter could have it; i was just
throwing out ideas here...

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[post 72]
author : atreides
date : 07-21-06 04:27 pm

nyaricus:> well, not a fighter-only feat - but i'd let it be on their list. the
prereqs are low, i know that - heck a 1st level human fighter could have it; i was
just throwing out ideas here...

well sure, my point though is that non-fighters get much more use out of it then
fighters do - so as a feat it does not help the fighter in his only realm to shine
- fighting -

my reason for giving them a class ability that eventually becomes +4 initiative
and the reroll per encounter was to specifically give them something that the
rogues would be envious of. one of the tenents of 'fighting' is to be 'always
ready' - don't get suprised, that kind of thing - hence the inherent inititative
training - which would stack with improved initiative if the fighter chose to take
it.

fighters - by design - should be able to fight better then everyone else - it is

their realm - their saves are bad, their skills are terrible, the only place they
are expected to do well is fighting - but the wotc fighter is a 2 or 4 level dip
and go join a 'real' fighting class (barbarian, ranger, prc).

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[post 73]
author : nyaricus
date : 07-24-06 09:44 pm

well sure, my point though is that non-fighters get much more use out of it then
fighters do - so as a feat it does not help the fighter in his only realm to shine
- fighting -

my reason for giving them a class ability that eventually becomes +4 initiative
and the reroll per encounter was to specifically give them something that the
rogues would be envious of. one of the tenents of 'fighting' is to be 'always
ready' - don't get suprised, that kind of thing - hence the inherent inititative
training - which would stack with improved initiative if the fighter chose to take
it.

fighters - by design - should be able to fight better then everyone else - it is

their realm - their saves are bad, their skills are terrible, the only place they
are expected to do well is fighting - but the wotc fighter is a 2 or 4 level dip
and go join a 'real' fighting class (barbarian, ranger, prc).
okay, fair enough. i was just throwing out the idea anyways - likely it'll come
into my games as a mid-level feat somehow though, so thanks for that idea.

i think i'm going to start up what do you do for... paladins now. it's been far
too long (of course a nice roadtrip like i'm on will do that too you ;))

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[post 74]
author : darkkestral
date : 07-24-06 10:32 pm

alone among the classes, i'd actually consider pumping up their reflex saves and
skills.

basically:

fighter
class skills: climb, jump, handle animal, intimidate, bluff, sense motive, spot,
listen, craft, profession, knowledge (tactics), knowledge (nobility/royalty),

skill points per level: 2+int modifier (2+int modifier x 4 at first level)

you might notice the idea of fighters as being more skilled in general. this is
partly because bluffing and understanding your opponent in battle are useful
abilities for skilled fighters. their skills are still oriented towards fighting,
but they are not the complete slouches elsewhere they once were.

bab per level: +1

fort save: good
reflex save: bad
will save: bad

i dunno how many fighter feats should be sacrificed for these but...

magic's shield (su): at 9th level, fighters get the ability to treat the
enhancement bonus on their armor and shields as deflection ac for the purposes of
determing ac vs. spell attacks.

iron self (ex): at 11th level, fighters get spell resistance equal to 10 + their
fighter level

fighter's cunning (ex): at 17th level, fighters gain the extraordinary ability to
sacrifice an iterative attack at their highest attack bonus to auto-confirm a
critical hit on their next attack, should they hit, if they succeed at an opposed
bluff or intimidate check. (fighter gets to choose which skill he uses)

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[post 75]
author : green slime
date : 07-25-06 05:42 am

hmmm....

just noticed i had added the following skills to the class list of fighters:

heal, listen & spot.

should probably have added handle animal as well.

i can never find a use for knowledge (tactics) in the game that strikes me as
sensible.

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[post 76]
author : zimbel16
date : 07-25-06 12:55 pm

as you you fine folks - what do you do for fighters?

offer a slight varient of the iron lore feat system to them. having a lot of high-
powered feats to choose from at higher levels helps a lot.
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[post 77]
author : atreides
date : 07-25-06 02:23 pm

darkkestral,

i would consider adding tumble as a class skill as well - while it does have non-
combat functionality, it is much more combat functional then some of the other
skills you game them...

i definitely like the magic shield and iron self - help the fighters keep up in a
high magic world - but i am not clear on fighter's cunning - can you explain your
design intent?

as for knowledge (tactics) - i basically designed a skill called battle which is

basically small group tactics as well as large scale maneuvering (several hundred
men at a time). i would use the skill for establishing or detecting ambush like
conditions - or perhaps when drawing up a design plan to raid the giants cave - a
success may reveal a weakness to the structure which no one else was privy to -
things like that.

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[post 78]
author : darkkestral
date : 07-25-06 04:16 pm

basically, the idea behind fighter's cunning is that they use their knowledge of
opponent tactics to hide their real attack. they sacrifice their first attack,
which becomes a 'cover' for the real attack that will strike at an opponent's
weakspot, and therefore do a ton of damage should it hit. it plays off the idea
that fighters over time learn how various people are likely to respond to various
apparent threats and will start using that against them over time. it is
essentially my attempt to give the d&d high-end fighter some of the advantages of
the d20 modern 10th level soldier (the closest comparable d20 modern base
class/adc/prc to the d&d fighter), who can sacrifice an action point to auto-
confirm crits. however, the soldier has only +3/4 bab, while the fighter gets +1,
and d&d 3.5 lacks action points, except in specific campaign settings, so i also
felt it a good idea to limit it to the 2nd or later attack and put in a skill
check requirement (though i'd also be willing to use knowledge (tactics) here, as
another choice) to prevent it from being an automatic thing that will always be
used if a player has put a heavy investment into boosting the threat range of
their weapons. (having doing crits half the time on an attack can be pretty
brutal, especially if you can do so more than once a round)

i'd consider tumble for a substitution class, or a variant base class, where they
drop a couple of skills in return for balance and tumble (so that they essentially
choose a lighter-armored route focusing on dex or a heavier armor route focusing
on str or con) because giving those skills means taking over several of the combat
advantages of the lighter-armor classes, as far as i can tell, so giving them the
skills plus better armor can be quite powerful, especially once the armor vs.
spells starts kicking in to offset their generally low dex scores. (+5 armor and a
+5 shield would mean +10 touch ac!!!, rendering their touch acs easily in the
range of a monk's, though the monk gets some of his bonus for free, and would
provide a very good incentive to go sword n' board mechanically) however, i'd have
to playtest the new modified version before i could say for sure whether or not it
would be appropriate.

some of the other houseruled skills (profession being one of them) are simply
because i find the idea of fighters not being good at doing things other than
simply thwack things less than intelligent, and wasn't at all related to improving
combat ability, but just what i see as bad flaws about their class design. (i can
see barbarians not getting it in most campaign worlds, but considering that
fighters are in some sense a catch-all class, it just seems counter-intuitive, and
the same goes for spot/listen and wizards vs. fighters)

were i to have knowledge (tactics), i'd basically allow pcs to use it to get hints
about their enemies, once they have heard something about how the enemy fights, or
for use in gaining bonuses vs. enemies in combat. nothing major, perhaps on the
order of a +1 or +2 to attack rolls or somesuch in combat, but enough to be worth
some effort, especially as those bonuses couldn't be dispelled. i'd also be
killing the separation of monster types as knowledge categories but compressing
them into a catch-all 'monster lore' category, which would probably be mostly
cross-class.

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[post 79]
author : steverooo
date : 07-28-06 06:54 am
title : just a cross-link!

i started a "what do you like/dislike about fighters" thread, here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=163856

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[post 80]
author : jodjod
date : 07-30-06 02:24 am

i let fighters waive attribute requirements on fighter bonus feats.

for instance a fighter in my games can choose combat expertise with one of his
fighter bonus feats even if his intelligence is lower than 13.

i like this idea. definately worth trying out. i actually give listen and spot as
class skills to my fighters. just seems to make sense to me.

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the messages has been download from en world - morrus' d&d / d20 news & reviews
site at http://www.enworld.org at 07.08.2006 07:21:21