Old Beliefs 2

Frustrations, Perceptions and Misunderstandings
BrendaP
Administrator
I asked a question, somewhere in the beginning of this thread, "And why does it
Posts: 2664 appear as if some want to force others to accept their understanding?" This followed
(5/4/04 2:11) after comments made about the various interpretations and beliefs which exist within
Reply "Christianity".
ezSupporter
Rudi then wrote "Never mind, Brenda...; it has always been the mark of simple
creatures to believe in a black and white world. They are not even able to accept grey
as the mixture of the two, let alone are they able to see the great variety of colors"
without making reference to any specific person/s, be they on the Board or "outside"
in the world of Christianity.
When I read what he wrote, I didn't comment, nor did I think he referred to anyone
specifically on the Board.
It is a well known fact, as Katherine also mentioned above, that the "Evangelical" or
"Conservative" wing of Christianity is regarded as "black and white" in that they are
very staunch in their way of beliefs and will not waver in proclaiming it as "absolute
truth".
I therefore took it that he was referring to that particular aspect.
Laura felt the comment was aimed at her personally and responded by saying "Rudi,
your condescension is showing again. Call me simple. That's fine. I put my belief in
Jesus Christ out there same as others put there's."
Katherine wrote to her "I don't know if YOU were being called simple..." - which is
correct as Rudi did not make any reference to Laura.
The comments following then unfortunately became "personal" as Rudi responded to

what Laura wrote about herself.
Rudi reiterated "It´s this behavior of a person that I wanted to describe with the
notion of a "simple creature" (Einfaltpinsel), not the person as a human being -
contrary what some hyper-sensitive "creatures" want to insinuate...
(see also my example given from Jesus)"
and if I look at what he wrote to start with, then it ties in with the above, in that his
first comment on this thread was a general remark about attitudes, same as NAC's
attitudes are "labeled", etc.
A real storm in a teacup. The NAC is being labeled, Evangelicals are being labeled,
liberal Christians are being labeled, Mormons are being labeled, Jews are being
labeled, those who call a spade a spade are being labeled, deaconess was labeled,
and you know what? We all do it!! So who's more guilty?
And in response to what deaconess wrote ""If someone is wiser than I, I hope I can
not be so proud as to dismiss their ideas or rationale... that is something I constantly
struggle with!"
...our individual attitudes and needs determine whether we are open to new ideas
which might benefit us spiritually. We all differ, though, and what might be wise
counsel to the one, might be drivel to another - be it said in a simple manner or in an
intellectual way.
Brenda
Edited by: BrendaP at: 5/4/04 2:13
Laura Responses
Registered User Brenda,
Posts: 679
(5/4/04 10:01)
Reply
First things first. I have never ignored or been unappreciative of Rudi's
thoughts/ideas/commentary, yours, Participants, Deaconess's,....If it somehow came
across that way then I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer. I've read your points. Some
I've never had any experience with. And I don't know how to respond!! Other than to
just consider them for now and keep reading, studying, and thinking about them.
There's a lot rolling around in my simple cage of a brain right now. I'm sorry I can't
be johnny on the spot right now and give an answer for every point. But I want you
all to know I've not been inconsiderate of or unappreciative of your perspectives. I've
printed off pages of your posts. I'll respond to everything you all want responses to.
Regarding forcing of beliefs. We all only post here. We share our views, we ask
questions, we answer questions. We discuss. Sometimes we post humor. Perhaps it
doesn't inspire discussion but it does bring a smile or a laugh. Sometimes we just
post thoughts or what we've found in articles, books, other websites...etc. Not all of it
gets responded to but we can be reasonably sure someone has considered it. Perhaps
someone somewhere found it helpful or informative. We share.
Not everyone responds in ways visibly observable to us. We don't see the
understanding nods, the smiles, the fury, the sighs, the whispered "Thank you, now I
don't feel so alone", or the "Hmm I've never considered that." We don't get to see
what everyone does when they get up from their computer screens. The prayers the
pray. The thoughts they think. The tears they cry. The deeds they then get up and do.
The lives they live.
Do we expect or demand instantaneous, en masse or individual, turn around to our

particular way of thinking? Can we allow each other time to consider? Time to learn?
My point is this: whatever form it takes, our posts are up for consideration. It's not
forcing, it's posting. It's an opportunity to share. And we're free to participate or not.
re: Responses
BrendaP
Administrator
Yes, you're right, Laura! All posts are up for consideration and I read every single
Posts: 2665 one. There is no demand for instantaneous response either, even though the subjects
(5/4/04 10:39) covered are sometimes very interesting.
Reply
ezSupporter My reference to forcing was aimed at those, not necessarily on the Board, who would
condemn in favour of their own beliefs. It might be an admirable trait to be that
steadfast in your beliefs, yes, but the condemnation part that accompanies it is, in
my opinion, unjustified in the absence of the verification we mentioned above. That is
why I often say, we can at best discuss.
Unfortunately this developed into a (what would appear) confrontation between you
and Rudi which made you feel as if you or your posts are being "attacked". You have
not been unappreciative nor inconsiderate and I apologize if I didn't handle the
matter correctly.
I hope we're able to move on with the discussion now and don't worry if you don't
always know how to respond. I don't always know either, but I find that's when I
learn most, when I have to think and search for answers.
Brenda
Laura Regarding Rudi
Registered User Thank you Brenda. I will consider all everyone has to post. If someone asks a
Posts: 680
(5/4/04 11:28) question I'll endeavor to do better and at least let them know I'm considering it even
Reply if I don't have any response yet. I will endeavor to be respectful, considering we're all
still breathing and learning here in life, all making our way as best we can, and all
desperately loving God as we know him now. And I will endeavor to be patient. For
God Knows He's been patient with me.
And to Rudi, If you honestly truly didn't mean it the way I took it, then duly noted.
Perhaps it couldn't hurt for me to slap on another layer of duck feathers.
Edited by: Laura at: 5/4/04 11:33
Katherine Re: re: Responses
Registered User Dear Brenda,
Posts: 570
(5/4/04 11:42)
Reply I appreciate what you're trying to do. Really, I do. Trying to keep the peace isn't easy,
but you know what? It isn't always necessary, either. It isn't even always desirable.
Much of what you have labeled misunderstanding is actually a clear understandings

based upon previous and often lengthy exchanges both on and off the board. Perhaps
you have never been the target of one of these exchanges, and if so, that's great.
However, that does not invalidate others' experiences and perceptions of this
situation, including Laura's.
I was looking back over the thread and to me, it seems clear that certain remarks
have a dismissive tone to them. Perhaps they don't hit you that way because you
haven't had the kinds of interactions that some of us have had. To us, the message
that comes through is loud and clear.
As I told the only one who ever accused me of ignorance and manipulation, I know
who I am. No longer do I feel badly for honestly stating my views, nor do I question
my own powers of perception, even when accused of being "overly-sensitive" (or
worse, as the case has been). That's the blessing of finally reaching some degree of
hard-won self-confidence -- something no one, no matter how certain of his or her
own superiority -- will ever take away from me. And, I would venture a guess, not
from Laura, either.
deaconess mop n glo... mop n go!
Registered User But while we're on the subject, since when is it acceptable to label another's
Posts: 1973
(5/4/04 12:15) ideas "simple" (in the most negative sense of the word) in a forum which
Reply ostensibly is open to differing points of view? ~ Katherine
I guess it is only acceptable when referring to sanitation engineers...? Einfaltspinsel...

perhaps you can help me out here, Katherine. Trying to get a real grip on the
meaning of this word. Would you say that "einfaltspinsel" could be used by you to
describe a certain poster that you and Karl exchanged mops with?
"The tone makes the music"? ~ K
...laughter is not always sweet music
How much "confidence" did it take back then to rob someone of human dignity?
Re:Responses
BrendaP
Administrator
Katherine, when I first found the Board I was in "searching mode" which means most
Posts: 2667 of my posts were the target of either ridicule, mocking, criticism, you name it and
(5/4/04 14:03) yes, I had my "moments" with Rudi too.
Reply
ezSupporter Seeing that Rudi's under discussion...
I assessed him over time and, apart from him being an intellectual, found he can be
impatient, insensitive, arrogant and dismissive in his tone, all those things he are
being accused of.
But I also found in him a wealth of spiritual knowledge, a desire to be of help and to
share his knowledge, a warmth when he gets questioned, a deep love for God, a
concern for the future of the NAC...
I've asked him many many questions - on the Board and via e-mail and he has
patiently helped me and explained to me. I value his opinions highly. I don't always
understand fully, but I try and read between the lines what he's trying to say. I don't
always agree either, but then I keep asking until there is "agreement to disagree". I
try and see the bigger picture always, seeing my vision was so limited in the past.
Having freed myself from the "black and white NAC indoctrination", I'm not about to
get into that situation again, unless I am fully convinced that it is the answer for me.
A conservative viewpoint of the Christian religion, is to me very much like that which
I was subjected to for most of my life.
I will not let Rudi or others deter me from having a discussion with Laura or anyone -
I enjoy it and I'm learning as I go along, otherwise I won't post. That is part of the
reason why I'm still here after say 4 years!
My post above, which you saw as a peacekeeping attempt, was actually my honest
observation of this whole situation. I do disagree with you, though! Trying to keep the
peace is desirable for this Board to be meaningful, and bearing in mind we all have
our different character traits and style of communication, isn't always easy as the
danger is there of being accused of not being neutral, or favouritism, or being partial,
etc.
If Rudi decides to no longer post on the Board, I will miss his input and thought-
provoking words. Same goes for you, Laura, and everyone else who put effort into
expressing their thoughts.
Brenda
deaconess tracking devices
Registered User BGA wrote: Anyways - I was enjoying reading this thread and it has been
Posts: 1974
(5/4/04 14:43) derailed due to argument over non-issues. Can you all return to the
Reply discussion so I can continue enjoying to read it?
I apologize for contributing to it's derailment. Shall we head back now to the topic
which was.... what was the topic???
Allllllllllllll aboard!!!!!
(anyone recall the choo-choo story from Major Payne?)

Edited by: deaconess at: 5/4/04 14:49
ByGraceAlone Faith vs. Works
Registered User I think we were continuing the never-ending debate of Faith-Alone versus
Posts: 193
(5/4/04 15:32)
Faith+Works for Salvation.
Reply
I will help get this thread back on topic as best I can. Firstly, when answering this
question I would like to concentrate solely on the words of Christ rather than the
Apostles/disciples. Please consider two examples:
1) Mary Magdalene - After Jesus had chosen not to judge her he told her "Go and sin
no more". Why would he say that if it wasn't necessary? Why wouldn't he have said
"Go and believe in me"?
2) Healing the Blind Man - Jesus picked up clay and put it over his eyes, settling it
there with a bit of his saliva. He then told the Blind Man to go down to Siloam and
wash his eyes. Why didn't Jesus simply heal him based on his belief? Why did he
require his belief + his action?
Look forward to your comments and getting this thread back on track.
regards,
JJD
Katherine Final Derailment
Registered User Deaconess,
Posts: 571
(5/4/04 17:06)
Reply Yes, I will admit to laughing at Karl N's statement back on whichever thread that was.
And I apologize if that caused offense to anyone. For some reason, the statement
itself struck me as ridiculously funny, probably in part because I had been reading
Harry Potter and had visions of the Hogwarts students playing quidditch on flying
mops!
Anyway, I do apologize for that reference, and I do admit that it was insensitive.
Therein lies a distinction.
O Jeffrey Re: Final Derailment
Registered User
Posts: 67
Interesting what a discussion of faith versus works can turn into
(5/4/04 17:43) I have observed over the years that total reliance and belief in Jesus Christ
Reply alone,once stated can open a flurry of comments and ruffle many feathers. You see,
the human 'creature', even the 'simple' ones, have this major problem called pride!
To truly turn it all over to the finished work of our Savior means that it really does not
matter if you have an IQ of 165 with a couple of framed diplomas or
or a slow mind with a simple faith, because it is ALL Him!
and not you!
God will not be mocked, nor will He share His glory with another! The message of
absolute and complete salvation in Jesus Christ is what it means to rest in Him! He is
the True Sabbath rest that all need! This fact opposes the sinful mind
of humans that would sooner boast of their own capabilities in such matters.
Laura:
You certainly do not need to apologize to Rudi or anyone else, you assessed the
meaning and words correctly I'm quite certain!
Katherine:
What you had posted to me some time ago that Deaconess, tried to 'stir up' Was
never addressed by me because I know we differ sharply on a number of things but I
also know that you do not think I'm a simple idiot! (maybe a dogmatic, fundamental
hedge-post but hey! )
Edited by: O Jeffrey at: 5/4/04 17:45
Katherine Re: Re:Responses
Registered User Dear Brenda,
Posts: 573
(5/4/04 17:48)
Reply
I'm pleased that your exchanges have been pleasant; and I'm sure they will be,
unless and until the high value that has always been accorded isn't forthcoming, at
which time things can very quickly change. Hopefully, they won't.
By the way, I wasn't criticizing you by talking about "peackeeping." My statement

about it not always being the best way to deal with things was based on my own
experiences. I remember being told to keep quiet about many things, to "keep the
peace." These were things that no one should ever be quiet about, but I was told to
smooth the waves. My statement was a general one about my belief that, when
legitimate issues get raised, it is not always best to try to arrive at a speedy peace.
Sometimes, very important things get sacrificed in the process.
I wish you well.

Edited by: Katherine at: 5/4/04 17:49
re: Final Derailment
BrendaP
Administrator
Jeffrey, I thought Katherine concluded the "derailment"...
Posts: 2670
(5/4/04 18:08) Must I now get all upset because perhaps you are inferring it is my pride that is
Reply interfering with my acceptance of the way you believe?
ezSupporter
Or perhaps you were including me as one of those with the "sinful mind that would
sooner boast of their capabilities in such matters"?
Well, surprise surprise! I won't get upset, even if you were referring to me! For too
many years did I have to live with threats and for too many years was my life ruled
by dogmatic fundamentalistic views. Today I say thank you that I no longer have to
"obey or else"!
By the way, you never answered all of my questions on this thread. Would you like to
give it a try, for the sake of discussion? I am truly interested to hear your opinion on
the differences that exist between the "wings".
Brenda
Katherine Obeying or else!
Registered User "Today I say thank you that I no longer have to "obey or else"!
Posts: 574
(5/4/04 18:39)
Reply Hi, Brenda, maybe we have more in common than we think....
Jeffrey, thanks for your words. And no, I don't think you are a "simple" anything, but
as I said on another thread, a thinking and feeling human being just like everyone
here.
O Jeffrey Re: re: Final Derailment
Registered User Brenda,
Posts: 68
(5/5/04 8:24)
I found this very interesting regarding your question(s)
Reply
Why are there so many Christian denominations?
SUMMARY: If God has revealed Himself in absolute truth to Christians, why do

Christians have so many denominations with different viewpoints? God clearly defined
the physical form of worship in the Old Testament, but that external form didn’t reach
the inner person. Christ said to worship God we must worship Him in spirit and in
truth. The New Testament message emphasizes an internal conversion through Jesus
Christ’s sacrificial death and the Holy Spirit’s residing.
Can we say that God has a purpose for the many Christian denominations today?
Given the nature of humanity, a better question is: "If Christianity were a single
denomination, would that really accomplish God’s intended purpose of reaching
people from the inside out?"
The large number of Christian denominations with differing practices and beliefs can
be confusing to someone seeking the truth about Christ. How do they know what to
believe? Consider how God revealed Himself in the Old Testament. He clearly defined
the physical form of worship. He gave Israel’s descendents specific instructions on
how to build the tabernacle and offer sacrifices. God specified every detail of the
ritual down to what the priests wore. Yet, through the prophets when His people used
sacrifices to feed their selfish motives rather than to express repentance, God said
that He detested their sacrifices; not because they violated the ritual, but because
they did not follow God with their internal character and motives. The external form
of worship didn’t reach the inner person. God promised Israel a new covenant,
written on people’s hearts rather than on external tablets of stone.
Christ fulfilled what was written in the Old Testament, not just outwardly, but
completely. He said the true worshiper must worship God in spirit and truth. The New
Testament message emphasizes an internal conversion through Jesus Christ’s
sacrificial death and through His Spirit living in us. As Christians, we worship God
with a transformed mental attitude that submits our lives as living sacrifices to God
rather than accepting this world’s naturally self-centered attitudes.
Still, what was God’s reason for allowing Christians to become so fragmented? While
the all-encompassing purpose of God's infinite mind is more than we can understand,
God has said that He is working out everything that happens for good. How is God
accomplishing good in this situation?
A Biblical example of God using what His people considered awful to accomplish good
is the Babylonian captivity. Before Israel and Judah went into captivity, the idol
worship of the nations around them infested their own nations. They went through
cycles of disregarding God and returning to Him, but they continued to decline from
the peak when David and Solomon ruled. The conditions were not right for Christ to
come nor were they improving. When Judah returned from the Babylonian captivity,
those who worshiped idols stayed in Babylon. They had no incentive to return to a
Judah in ruins. In fact, if their family was not firm about worshiping God, they may
have lost their separate identity from the rest of Babylon all together. After the
Babylonian captivity, idol worship in Judah no longer existed among the Jews.
Can we say that God has a purpose for the many Christian denominations today?
Obviously, the human factors motivating the Babylonian captivity did not have God’s
purpose in mind. In fact, the Assyrians and Babylonians worshiped many idols and
were virtually ignorant of God. Yet, God carried out His plan through them. Divisions
among Christians occurred for many different reasons. Many times reasons were less
than honorable. Some divisions have even lost their Christian identity. Authors
produced volumes debating reasons for division in church history. That is not the
question here. The question is what is God’s purpose?
The Reformation started when Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christianity had reached
a climax in well-defined external rituals while internal worship and understanding
were at a low. Roman Catholic worship mandated using the Latin translation of the
Bible, Biblia Sacra Vulgata ("the Holy Bible in the Common Language"), although it
was over 1000 years old and Latin was no longer a common spoken language. Not
unlike some English speaking Christians today who insist on only using a translation
with language almost 400 years old. At first, Latin served as a common language
across the Roman Empire, just as Koine (common) Greek served as a common
language with the people for the first century missionaries traveling across the
Roman Empire. By the Reformation, long after the Roman Empire fell, only scholars
knew Latin. Many people in Latin worship services couldn’t understand the message.
They only went through the motions. It’s too common for Christians to hold on to
once useful traditions long after their usefulness has ended.
The Reformation did more than start denominations emphasizing personal faith and
internal worship over external ritual. It returned Christianity as a whole back in that
direction. Today Roman Catholic worship for ordinary people is usually in their spoken
language so that they understand. Recently the Roman Catholic Church has adopted
an agreement with Lutherans stating salvation is by grace through faith alone while
salvation does result in, rather than being the result of, the saved person doing good.
While Martin Luther based the Reformation on theology, he attacked external Roman
Catholic rituals, such as indulgences. Thus, this agreement is more about changing
past tradition than altering Roman Catholic theology.
Not only does the New Testament omit clearly defining any external form of worship
or church government; it also does not present specific external actions that a person
must do for God to save them. God desires right external action be the result of being
internally right with Him and being properly motivated by His indwelling Spirit.
Christians can look at other denominations and see many things wrong. However, if
they are honest, they must recognize the shortcomings within their own
denomination. Any denomination that has existed for more than a generation and has
enjoyed the freedom to worship without severe persecution has members in name
only, to whom the church is only a convenience for performing marriages and
funerals. They may be a little more active if they view church as a social club. If a
church tries to oust these members, it can only do so by pushing external conformity.
Our internal unity through God’s Spirit motivates Christians to seek harmony with one
another. True unity in worship is a congregation with unanimity in Spirit and purpose;
not an externally forced unity, but one through internal conviction based on God’s
revelation in the Bible. Real unity does not force external unity among churches, but
seeks to cooperate with other churches as much as possible. Sometimes division for
the sake of internal harmony is better than internal disharmony and fighting. If we
recognize that the lost are even within members of our own denomination, we can be
more cooperative about reaching them. Sometimes unsaved members within one’s
own denomination may have become so callused to the external form of the
denomination that it takes a Christian from another denomination to reach them.
Isn’t it better to lose members of our own denomination if they find Christ in the
process? Differences among denominations can help reach different people.
Given the nature of humanity, a better question is: "If Christianity were a single
denomination, would that really accomplish God’s intended purpose of reaching
people from the inside out?" For Christians that really belong to Christ, God’s Spirit
already unites us. People should identify us as Christians, not by an institution, but by
our love for one another.
©2000 Perry Vernon Webb
This entire statement is from Perry and he has a very interesting web page regarding
many of the issues you have raised in the past. and this plus more is on his site.
This is his site: www.angelfire.com/tx/Perr...index.html

re: different understandings
BrendaP
Administrator
Thank you, Jeffrey!
Posts: 2677
(5/5/04 14:18) One thought-provoking comment made is "Obviously, the human factors motivating
Reply the Babylonian captivity did not have God’s purpose in mind. In fact, the Assyrians
ezSupporter and Babylonians worshiped many idols and were virtually ignorant of God. Yet, God
carried out His plan through them"
I couldn't help but think of the NAC here. If God was indeed able to carry out His plan
through idol worshippers like it said above, then perhaps you can understand better
why some members don't just pack up and leave. Relationships with God go way
above those human motivating factors we are all surrounded by.
I can also agree that "Real unity does not force external unity among churches, but
seeks to cooperate with other churches as much as possible". As soon as there is
force involved, then ulterior motives are on the agenda. To cooperate with other
churches for the sake of unity, means that members are also encouraged to seek out
that which is good and of spiritual benefit to them and they are not limited to an
"only right way type of church".
In the same manner, force should not be applied for acceptance of beliefs, nor should
beliefs be held as "absolute truths", especially if the encouragement is there to seek
unity and cooperation with other churches.
In response to the question "If Christianity were a single denomination, would that
really accomplish God’s intended purpose of reaching people from the inside out?" My
answer (right or wrong) would be no, because I don't believe it is a particular
denomination that brings about an inner change, but rather our receptive attitudes
toward Godly stimulation.
What is interesting is that there are 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world.
Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the
big denominations.
Where the liberal, mainline and conservative wings are concerned, the divisions and
conflicts are largely traceable to different approaches to of the Bible, as mentioned
before. Most Evangelical Christians do not accept the beliefs of mainline and liberal
Christian churches. In fact, some conservative Christians do not regard mainline and
liberal churches to be fully Christian either.
And yet....they are all called Christians. And back to the question which was asked
above "If God has revealed Himself in absolute truth, why do Christians have so
many denominations with different viewpoints".
A logical conclusion to come to would be...perhaps the "absolute truth" as held by

some is not the "absolute truth" and that "different perspectives were given or
allowed so that every man may find the way according to their individual needs and
understanding"....as we are all pilgrims making our way towards a common goal! This
conclusion cannot be summarily dismissed unless anyone can step forward and claim
to fully understand and know "God's mind".
Brenda

O Jeffrey Re: Re:Responses
Registered User I think we were continuing the never-ending debate of Faith-Alone versus
Posts: 69
(5/6/04 8:52) Faith+Works for Salvation.
Reply
I will help get this thread back on topic as best I can. Firstly, when answering this
question I would like to concentrate solely on the words of Christ rather than the
Apostles/disciples. Please consider two examples:
> JJD, Do you want to concentrate on the words of Christ because you consider the
other sections in scripture to be inferior? But, let's move on to your examples
1) Mary Magdalene - After Jesus had chosen not to judge her he told her "Go and sin
no more". Why would he say that if it wasn't necessary? Why wouldn't he have said
"Go and believe in me"?
> A couple of thoughts here JJD.

1- First, What reference are you referring to where Jesus told Mary to go and sin no
more? (Are you thinking of the woman caught in adultrey?) I will elaborate more once
you find this verse?
2- If Jesus healed a sinful person physically why would such a statement negate
salvation by faith in Him? Remember, you are wanting the words of Jesus only so, you
must realize that He spoke little in the scriptures after His crucifixtion and
resurrection. This point cannot be missed on His teachings because He, Himself was
born in Israel 'under the law' and often His statements are made to fellow Jewish
people also 'under the law' BEFORE, He 'nailed it to a tree'. More, after you locate the
reference.
2) Healing the Blind Man - Jesus picked up clay and put it over his eyes, settling it
there with a bit of his saliva. He then told the Blind Man to go down to Siloam and
wash his eyes. Why didn't Jesus simply heal him based on his belief? Why did he
require his belief + his action?
> Good question JJD!
Some things to note about this passage where some historical backgound helps are
the following:
* The scribes and Pharisees often gathered near the pool of Siloam
* These same religious leaders taught that one of the signs of the Messiah would be
that he would heal a man who had been born blind!
* This healing takes place on the Sabbath (purposely)
* The Rabbis taught that making clay by spitting and rubbing was a work violation of
the Sabbath and healing by this method was also forbidden work on the Sabbath!
Jesus specifically heals this man 'Born Blind' on the Sabbath

and purposely breaks the 'extra-biblical traditions of men' that had become more
imortant than the commands of God! And then after healing him in such a way as
ONLY the Messiah could do, He sends him to where there will be a confrontation
regarding this
These passages atre not dealing with salvation by faith JJD,
In their context Jesus is showing once again how far the people and their leaders had
gone from the God of Israel as they tried to scrupiously follow extra biblical
commands of men while missing God's real purposes. God never intended that a
person could not heal or help someone on the Sabbath but this day had noe evolved
into Man being made For the Sabbath rather than the Sabbath for man.
Look forward to your comments and getting this thread back on track.
regards,
JJD
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: Re:Participant
Posts: 70 Not sure where to post this comment so I will put it here.
(5/6/04 9:00)
Reply
I'm wondering out loud and in this post about 'Participant'?
He/She? was posting furiously for a couple of weeks and during that time 'Brenda
'seemed quiet. Now, Brenda is again very active on posts and, well, 'Participant' has
left the building so it seems. Anyway, just pondering. I'm sure I'm imaging things.
BrendaP Re: Participant

Administrator Probably just coincidence. From what I can see, nobody really replied to Participant
Posts: 2681
on his/her last thread, and some questions asked, so maybe just gave up till another
(5/6/04 9:22)
Reply time.
ezSupporter
Brenda
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: Participant
Posts: 71 Sorry Brenda,
(5/6/04 9:54) Not trying to derail, because this is an important subject, just did not know where to
Reply
post the comment, and in fact should have probably refrained all together. Please
accept my apology
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: Herb Stroh
Posts: 72 This earlier post by Herb is worth a re-post because it is a very good and yet brief
(5/6/04 11:54) summation of the discussion at hand
Reply
"I tend to agree with Laura's perspective on the issue of "grace." In the NAC we tend
to teach a "striving" doctrine: one believes and then labors to be found worthy in
God's sight. This would seem to diminish the gift of grace. This teaching implies that
God's gift of His son was still not good enough, there there is one more thing
necessary for salvation--my good conduct.
God's gift of grace is perfect and complete in and of iteself. Salvation is a Godly work,
not a human one. I will not and cannot make myself worthy or earn grace. By
definintion, it is a Godly gift that cannot be enhanced by man.
But rejecting the notion of 'striving for worthiness' is not a call to indolence and
lawlessness. That I have accepted Christ should induce within me the compelling
desire to live a God-fearing life. For example, Zachaies (sp?) the tax collector was
well known as a dishonest man, a traitor to his people. After his meeting with Christ
he stated he would give half his wealth to the poor, and repay 4 times over all he
stole. Did he do this to curry the favor of Jesus and obtain grace, or was it a result of
accepting Jesus as his Savior and choosing to live a better life?"- Herb Stroh
Now what do those advocating Jesus + think of Herb's post?

deaconess work it on out....
Registered User I don't think it's a matter of Jesus + works...
Posts: 1976
(5/6/04 13:15)
Reply I think it is a matter of Jesus IS works... if His life is in you... then one's life should
naturally exhibit this.
Faith / works
BrendaP
Administrator
An interesting dialogue to ponder about :
Posts: 2682
(5/6/04 15:24) www.ccel.org/l/law/justif...just01.htm
Reply
ezSupporter Brenda
plcomp Grace
Posts: 286 "In the NAC we tend to teach a "striving" doctrine: one believes and then labors to be
(5/6/04 16:45)
Reply found worthy in God's sight. This would seem to diminish the gift of grace"
I agree 100%!
Speaing of Grace: As I recall, the word "grace" was very frequently used in my NAC-
days. But the "grace" I was taught meant: GRACE in that I have Apostles that can
forgive my sins, give me the HS and lead me the way. In other words, the emphasis
on grace in the NAC, for me, was always focused on the Apostles. The Gift of Grace in
the NAC is and always was the Apostles.
JF ez Re: Faith / works
Registered User Her sins joined together, even up to Heaven,
Posts: 2692
and God has remembered her unjust deeds.
(5/6/04 18:07)
Reply | Edit Revelation 18:5
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: work it on out....
Posts: 73 I don't think it's a matter of Jesus + works...
(5/6/04 19:30)
Reply
I think it is a matter of Jesus IS works... if His life is in you... then one's life should
naturally exhibit this. -D
We do not disagree on this issue. It is the issue of human works or merit (such as
NAC striving) in addition to the finished work of Jesus = salvation.
'Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a
law of faith. For we maintain that a man (or woman ) is justified by faith apart from
works of the Law'.- Romans 3:27-28
'Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work,
but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,
just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man (or woman ) to whom God
reckons righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have
been covered. Blessed is the man (or, of course, woman) whose sin the LORD will not
take into account"- Romans 4:4-8
But what about Abraham?:

Let's see: 'For what does the scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was
reckoned to him as righteousness."-Romans 4:3
Oh what a mighty Savior, only He could work the works of the Father! It is faith in the
one who can forgive, justify and redeem that sets the sinner free!
ByGraceAlone
Registered User Faith, Works, and Abraham
Posts: 194 Jeffrey,
(5/6/04 20:59)
Reply
Quote:
> JJD, Do you want to concentrate on the words of Christ because you consider the
other sections in scripture to be inferior?
I wouldn't say I consider them "inferior". I just simply wanted to focus solely on the
words of the Savior to avoid any disputes over "Pauline" versus "Jamesian", etc that
have been going on in other threads. Let's simply focus on the words of Christ for a
bit - is that ok?
Quote:
1- First, What reference are you referring to where Jesus told Mary to go and sin no
more? (Are you thinking of the woman caught in adultrey?) I will elaborate more once
you find this verse?
Yes - the verse about the woman caught in adultery. Many tend to think it was Mary
M. I look forward to your comments.
Quote:
2- If Jesus healed a sinful person physically why would such a statement negate
salvation by faith in Him?
It wouldn't necessarily - read my next comment to see why.
Quote:
Remember, you are wanting the words of Jesus only so, you must realize that He
spoke little in the scriptures after His crucifixtion and resurrection. This point cannot
be missed on His teachings because He, Himself was born in Israel 'under the law'
and often His statements are made to fellow Jewish people also 'under the law'
BEFORE, He 'nailed it to a tree'.
If Jesus knew he was going to die for our sins - why would he waste time preaching
about the reformation of the existing Jewish church (which he knew wouldn't happen
due to many prophecies already in place predicting the fate of Israel after their
rejection of the Messiah)? Perhaps many of his references although directed at the
Jewish church (or leaders) were meant to leave an example to be applied by each of
us coming after and reading his words and example. I am not looking at this example
"in context" on purpose - I am looking at it as a "pattern of behavior" on the part of
the Savior which points towards the nature of God and his expectations for us. Why
preach to change your ways if all you had to do after he was dead was accept him in
faith? Why tell people to "go and sin no more" when he knew in a few years all she
needed do was accept him as Lord and Savior and she would be saved?
Quote:
Some things to note about this passage where some historical backgound helps are
the following:
* The scribes and Pharisees often gathered near the pool of Siloam
* These same religious leaders taught that one of the signs of the Messiah would be
that he would heal a man who had been born blind!
* This healing takes place on the Sabbath (purposely)
* The Rabbis taught that making clay by spitting and rubbing was a work violation of
the Sabbath and healing by this method was also forbidden work on the Sabbath!
Jesus specifically heals this man 'Born Blind' on the Sabbath
and purposely breaks the 'extra-biblical traditions of men' that had become more
imortant than the commands of God! And then after healing him in such a way as
ONLY the Messiah could do, He sends him to where there will be a confrontation
regarding this These passages atre not dealing with salvation by faith JJD, In their
context Jesus is showing once again how far the people and their leaders had gone
from the God of Israel as they tried to scrupiously follow extra biblical commands of
men while missing God's real purposes. God never intended that a person could not
heal or help someone on the Sabbath but this day had noe evolved into Man being
made For the Sabbath rather than the Sabbath for man.
I can agree with all your comments and understand your explanation - but it doesn't
address the point I am trying to make. Why would Jesus (as you put it) show 'once
again how far the people and their leaders had gone from God' if it didn't matter?
Why show people how they should be if all they needed to know was "believe in me
and you shall be saved"?
In essence it boils down to this one question: Why would Christ spend so much of his
limited time on Earth preaching a change in behavior when all that was needed was a
change in belief?
Quote:
In the NAC we tend to teach a "striving" doctrine: one believes and then labors to be
found worthy in God's sight. This would seem to diminish the gift of grace. This
teaching implies that God's gift of His son was still not good enough, there there is
one more thing necessary for salvation--my good conduct.
I don't see it that way. Without the Son's sacrifice no salvation to anyone who is not
perfect. However, the Son's sacrifice opened the door that even the imperfect can
receive salvation. However, it's not that "God's gift of His Son was still not good
enough" - it's that belief in the "Savior" by itself is not good enough. One must
believe and also use that belief as a basis to change oneself - to allow Christ to grow
in us. Would someone be saved who believed in Jesus as the Son of God and in his
sacrifice, but did nothing in his life (according to your theology)?
Quote:
God's gift of grace is perfect and complete in and of iteself. Salvation is a Godly work,
not a human one. I will not and cannot make myself worthy or earn grace. By
definintion, it is a Godly gift that cannot be enhanced by man.
That is true. And I am not adding my works to his grace - he is adding his grace to
my works to "complete me". Or literally to "perfect me". (From the Latin root perfect
means to complete or finish). As he said "Be ye perfect as my Father in Heaven is
perfect". Obviously that is impossible without his grace. However, zero times zero still
nothing. If I do nothing and invest nothing, his grace upon me has yielded nothing.
Quote:
But rejecting the notion of 'striving for worthiness' is not a call to indolence and
lawlessness. That I have accepted Christ should induce within me the compelling
desire to live a God-fearing life. For example, Zachaies (sp?) the tax collector was
well known as a dishonest man, a traitor to his people. After his meeting with Christ
he stated he would give half his wealth to the poor, and repay 4 times over all he
stole.
Did he do this to curry the favor of Jesus and obtain grace, or was it a result of
accepting Jesus as his Savior and choosing to live a better life?
Isn't this last sentence the same as saying that I have accepted Christ as my Savior
and "strive to overcome my sinful self"? Aren't you all simply playing a semantical
game?
Quote:
We do not disagree on this issue. It is the issue of human works or merit (such as
NAC striving) in addition to the finished work of Jesus = salvation.
'Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a
law of faith. For we maintain that a man (or woman ) is justified by faith apart from
works of the Law'.- Romans 3:27-28
Even if we "strive to overcome our sins" there is no boasting! How can anyone of us
boast no matter how much we overcome? In the end without his sacrifice we are still
all sinners! No one is better than the other - we each simply must fulfill our potential
- that being what God expects of us.
Quote:
But what about Abraham?:
Let's see: 'For what does the scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was
reckoned to him as righteousness."-Romans 4:3
Oh what a mighty Savior, only He could work the works of the Father! It is faith in the
one who can forgive, justify and redeem that sets the sinner free!
What about Abraham indeed! Is Abraham called the "father of faith" because he
simply had faith? Or because his faith led to works? Didn't Abraham believe God and
then also sleep with his wife in order to conceive the promised son? Didn't Abraham
believe God and then also move to a foreign land as God had asked him? Didn't
Abraham believe God and then also climb to the top of Mount Horab to sacrific
Isaac? Didn't God require that of him? Abraham wasn't the father of faith because he
was a mere believer - he was a believer AND A DOER!
I look forward to your comments.

regards,
JJD
JF ez
Registered User Re: work it on out....
Posts: 2693 Saul was chargeable with blasphemy, persecution, and doing injury to others; but
(5/7/04 5:31) obtained pardoning mercy, and a justifying righteousness.
Reply | Edit
The Corinthians were guilty of some of the blackest crimes, and most enormous sins,
yet were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
The apostles, and others, before conversion, were disobedient, serving divers lusts
and pleasures; and yet were justified, by the grace of God, and made heirs, according
to the hope of eternal life.
JF ez
Registered User Re: Faith, Works, and Abraham
Posts: 2694 he is adding his grace to my works to "complete me".
(5/7/04 5:48)
Reply | Edit Grace and works are opposed, and cannot consist together in the business of
justification;
for if it is of grace, then not of works;
but justification is by grace, and therefore not by works;
"Being justified freely by his grace", Ro 3:24
not only by grace, but freely by it; or by grace that is altogether free;
and, indeed, as Austin says, it would not be grace if it was not so, or was any ways
clogged with the works of men.
deaconess
Registered User repeating myself...
Posts: 1978 And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God,
(5/7/04 6:57) for our good always, that (for this purpose) He might preserve us alive, as it is this
Reply
day. Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all
these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.
Deuteronomy 6:24,25
He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your
descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to
Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of
heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the
nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept
My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5
It appears that Abraham was justified by works... not faith alone! Did God say to
Isaac that Abraham was justified by faith? Yet, Paul is inspired to say otherwise...
that he was justified by faith and fails to mention works:
Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Romans 4:1-3
James seems to be more on track in understanding the relationship between faith and
works: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not
Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son
upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was
faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed
God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of
God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the
messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit
is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:20-26
A few more inerrant texts to consider:
Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household,
BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis
7:1
For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good
thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Psalm 84:11
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the
children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing
mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Exodus 20: 5,6 (note that there were "thousands" who loved Him and kept His
commandments.)
But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him,
and His righteousness to children's children, to such as keep His covenant, and to
those who remember His commandments to do them. Psalm 103 17-18
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to
destroy but to fulfill . For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one
jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled . Whoever
therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall
be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them,
he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19
Another example of doing is seeking after righteousness... how is that done without
effort or works?: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all
these things shall be added unto you. Mat 6 : 33
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7: 21
JF ez
Registered User Re: repeating myself...
Posts: 2695 This is to confound JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION together, which are two
(5/7/04 7:02) distinct things (1Co 1:30, 6:11).
Reply | Edit
Justification is an individual act, done at once, finished at once, and admits of no
degrees; and is not carried on in a gradual, progressive way, as sanctification is (Col
2:13 Ac 13:39).
Good works belong to sanctification, and not justification; and are not the whole, nor
any part of justifying righteousness.
JF ez
Posts: 2696 Those believing God are to be careful to maintain good works. (Titus 3:
(5/7/04 7:31) They are to learn it, in a gradual, progressive way, so that they may not be
Reply | Edit
UNFRUITFUL. (Titus 3:14)
But they are NOT to learn it, in order that they may be JUSTIFIED!
Edited by: JF ez at: 5/7/04 7:32
JF ez
Posts: 2697 To maintain good works, is to endeavour to outdo others in them,
(5/7/04 8:22) not only the men of the world, but one another;
Reply | Edit and to set examples of them to others,
and to provoke one another, by a holy emulation, to them;
and to be constant in the performance of them.
All Christians lie under the greatest obligations to learn to do good works: "for
necessary uses".
And NOT to make their peace with God, or to atone for their sins, or to procure the
pardon of them, or to cleanse them from them, or for their justification before God,
or to obtain salvation and eternal life.
But to glorify God, testify their subjection to him, and gratitude for mercies received;
to show forth their faith to men;
to adorn the doctrine of Christ, and a profession of it;
to recommend religion to others;
to stop the mouths of gainsayers,
and put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.
Good works are the fruits of the Spirit, and of his grace; they are fruits of
righteousness; and such as are without them are like trees without fruit, useless and
unprofitable.
In a word, good works are the FRUITS and EFFECTS of righteousness, but NOT the
SOURCE of it.
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: Faith, Works, and Abraham
Posts: 75 In essence it boils down to this one question: Why would Christ spend so much of his
(5/7/04 9:23) limited time on Earth preaching a change in behavior when all that was needed was a
Reply
change in belief?" BGA
This is a good place to start.
Because it is the 'change in belief' that will 'change the behavior'!
BGA, Deaconess, it truly is this doctrine that is the primary 'stumbling block' in the
NAC!
When I read your responses I truly have a prayerful compassion and ask the Lord to
reveal to you this absolutely foundational truth of the sufficient sacrifice of our Savior
that you may enjoy the true freedom found in Him who has already completed the
'works' of righteousness that you cannot do.
Not freedom to sin, but freedom to allow the Spirit of God to continually transform
you where you will be doing the works of righteousness 'Because' not FOR!
Deaconess quoted from the book of Deuteronomy and also wondered about the
writing of James. As long as we are speaking of that let's see if this passage in
Deuteronomy
was given to Jeffrey or JF or Deaconess..
Or was this written to the Jews who were under the Law, the people of Israel? They,
who were in a bi-lateral or conditional covenant with God that included blessings and
cursings for obedience and disobedience?
First, notice the opening statement of James to see why this book concentrates so
much on speaking about the Law.
'James, a bondservant of God and of the LORD Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes who
are dispersed abroad, greetings.'-James 1:1
Though all scriptureis beneficial, understanding it in its context is critical. Look here
to see that this letter or epistle had for its primary target the Jewish people in the
Dispersion.
Now we can start to understand why this is a very 'Jewish' letter that speaks much
about the Law...
I mean James does after all pose the question of 'What does it profit a man that says
he has faith but he has no works?
Can that faith save him? Well, there we have it, the crux of this thread!
What are we to make of this, especially Laura, Jeffrey, Herb and others that do not
seem to be able to understand this
Well, here we see James going to the heart of Faith, true, saving faith, NOT A
Profession of Faith, but a Possesion of Faith! A mere profession that one has faith but
with not the accompanied fruits may be only an intellectual ascent and instead may
be a mockery of true faith. In fact he likens this type of faith to be dead! A true and
living faith should exhibit the fruits of such and of course the works will be present.
James is in no way advocating our works plus faith as the path TO Righteousness or
for salvation but as a result of!

ByGraceAlone
Registered User A Dead Faith
Posts: 195
(5/7/04 12:10) Quote:
Reply A mere profession that one has faith but with not the accompanied
fruits may be only an intellectual ascent and instead may be a
mockery of true faith.!
I think this is exactly the point we are trying to make. If it is a mockery of "true faith"
- than you are saying a "true faith" has works. So one must have works to be
justified according to your logic...
Quote:
In fact he likens this type of faith to be dead! A true and living faith should exhibit the
fruits of such and of course the works will be present.!
And if a faith is dead - can one receive salvation?
Quote:
James is in no way advocating our works plus faith as the path TO Righteousness or
for salvation but as a result of!
I disagree - here is where you make the leap that doesn't make sense. He IS
advocating that our works plus faith is a path TO righteousness for salvation.
According to your suppositions - if one believes in Jesus Christ he is saved - then the
works come as a result of that salvation. But what if the works stop - or die out. What
then? Is that person still saved?
regards,
JJD
deaconess faith without works is dead
Registered User Jeffrey arrogantly wrote: BGA, Deaconess, it truly is this doctrine that is the primary
Posts: 1979
(5/7/04 12:15) 'stumbling block' in the NAC! When I read your responses I truly have a
Reply prayerful compassion and ask the Lord to reveal to you this absolutely foundational
truth of the sufficient sacrifice of our Savior that you may enjoy the true freedom
found in Him who has already completed the 'works' of righteousness that you cannot
do.
Not freedom to sin, but freedom to allow the Spirit of God to continually transform
you where you will be doing the works of righteousness 'Because' not FOR.
Has any of us suggested that, Jeffrey? That it is FOR rather than "because"? I have
merely demonstrated that Paul DOES contradict scripture when he states that
Abraham was justified by faith alone when it is VERY clear from the OT otherwise.
James got it... he understood the meaning of works, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS
DEAD.
I suggest that it is you Jeffrey that misses Christ's ministry and teaching which
involved much "DOING". He DID ask us to be "doing"... He did ask us to keep the
commandments TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH DO PASS. For what purpose then, Jeffrey?
But take diligent heed of "doing" Jeffrey: Jos 22:5 But take diligent heed to do the
commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to
love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments,
and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jesus affirmed this:
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy
neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt
live.
How do you answer Jeffrey? How shalt thou "live"????
Works IS worship! When love for the Lord is so pure... so strong... when love for our
neighbors cannot be denied, but our heart aches to help them... it is IMPOSSIBLE not
to work!!!!!!
deaconess humble pie

Registered User When I read your responses I truly have a prayerful compassion ~
Posts: 1981
(5/7/04 13:03)
Reply Shades of similarity to the Pharisee's judgement of the publican... ?
... but then on the other hand, Jeffrey, arrogance is a common trait found amongst
conservative Christians, so I'll forgive you and ask God to humble your attitude
O Jeffrey Re: humble pie
Registered User but then on the other hand, Jeffrey, arrogance is a common trait found amongst
Posts: 77
(5/7/04 15:09) conservative Christians, so I'll forgive you and ask God to humble your attitude -D
Reply
Thank-you D
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: A Dead Faith
Posts: 78 James is in no way advocating our works plus faith as the path TO Righteousness or
(5/7/04 15:35) for salvation but as a result of!
Reply
- Jeffrey
I disagree - here is where you make the leap that doesn't make sense. He IS
advocating that our works plus faith is a path TO righteousness for salvation.
I'll give up on this one with you. But please let me know how much works it takes +
Righteousness = Salvation And please
tell me why Jesus was crucified, why is it 'by grace through faith and not of works' ?
My Jesus DID IT ALL! (Let's sing it 'Jesus did it all, All to Him I owe, sin had left a
crimson stain, He washed it white as snow).
BGA- Please tell me how you understand the following verses:
'But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He
saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but
according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy
Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being
justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.-
Titus 3:4-7
So BGA, where are you in this salvific equation according to these verses?
Now, after answering that, look at the next verse! The 'AFTER' verse! After, one has
been cleansed and regenerated soley by grace through faith! The After affect is:
'This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak
confidently, so that those who believed God (Past tense, already believed) may be
careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.- Titus
3:8

LACNAC
Posts: 277 This is definitely proving to be an interesting thread.
(5/7/04 16:15)
Reply
Jeffrey,
I would be interested in hearing (reading) your comments contrasting Galatians 3 and

in particular, verses 23-26
Quote:
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith
should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might
be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the
supervision of the law.
with what Jesus said regarding the law in Matthew 5:17-20.
Quote:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not
come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth
disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means
disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one
of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called
least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands
will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your
righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will
certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Thanks.
JF ez
Posts: 2698 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks
(5/7/04 16:34) to God and the Father by Him. (Colossians 3:17)
Reply | Edit
Both in the strength of Christ, without whom nothing can be well said or done; and
according to the mind and will of Christ declared in the Gospel, which is his name;
and calling upon his name for assistance in the ministration of his word,
administration of his sacraments, and in the performance of every duty, directing all
to, and having solely in view his honour and glory.
Neither in worship, nor in his business and pleasures, must be the Christian engage in
anything that cannot be done in Christ’s name; i.e., by his authority and in prayer to
him. This covers the whole life. It applies to conduct, to places of resort, to secular
calling. If doubtful, see if you can on your knees ask Christ to go with you and bless
you in what you are about to undertake.
I have presumed that we were all assured that the precious sufferings and death of
Christ are the only meritorious cause of our acceptance with God, and the operation
of the Holy Spirit, the only efficient cause of our embracing the Gospel, or of our
attaining to, or abiding in the grace in which we stand.
I have shown you that righteousness in yourself you can never attain; it was lost for
ever to the race of Adam in his transgression. Holiness in yourself you can never
attain; it is the attribute of God. But to be righteous, to be holy, you are called, and
that calling, upon the peril of your soul, you must attain. And in Christ they are to be
found, and abiding in Him, and living in Him, they are yours.
deaconess Dear "........"
Registered User Jeffrey commented: As long as we are speaking of that let's see if this passage
Posts: 1986
(5/9/04 11:12)
in Deuteronomy
Reply was given to Jeffrey or JF or Deaconess..
Or was this written to the Jews who were under the Law, the people of
Israel? They, who were in a bi-lateral or conditional covenant with God that
included blessings and cursings for obedience and disobedience?
Then Jeffrey, the 4th Chapter of Ephesians was written just to the Ephesians?
JF ez
Posts: 2708 And the LORD passed by before him and proclaimed, Jehovah! Jehovah God, merciful
(5/9/04 16:40) and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for
Reply | Edit thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and who will by no means
clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the sons, and on the sons of sons,
to the third and to the fourth generation.
Exodus 34:6-7
Here we must take care.
It is a great mistake to suppose that the proclamation of divine goodness in this

scene is the gospel. They greatly err who in this sense quote "Keeping mercy for
thousands, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin," and stop there.
God does not stop here. He immediately adds, "and by no clearing the guilty, visiting
the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."
There is no doubt that it is the goodness and mercy of God; but it is to a people
still under the government of the law. This is the peculiarity. What we find here
then is not law pure and simply, but law with mercy and goodness and longsuffering
in the government of God -- His condescending love and patience mingled along with
the law.
Hence we see its character and the reason why it appears here. Without it the guilty
people never could have been spared, but must have perished root and branch, as it
was in consequence of this change that a new generation of the people of Israel
entered into the land at all. Had He dealt on the ground of pure law, how could it
have been? They were guilty, and must have been cut off.
Now this mingling of grace with the law is the kind of system which
Christians have accepted as Christianity. No real believer ever takes the
ground of pure law. They take a mingled system; they mix up law and grace
together. This is what is going on every day now in Christendom.
It was the state in which the children of Israel were put here, and was a very great
mercy for them in a certain sense. It is no less a misfortune for the Christian,
because what those in Christ are called to is neither law, not the mingled system of
law interspersed with the gracious care of those under it (who must have been
consumed had law reigned alone), but pure grace in Christ without the law.
At the same time the righteousness of the law is fulfilled so much the more in those
that "walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
O Jeffrey
Posts: 81 Hi LACNAC,
(5/10/04 15:46)
Reply
I think I have commented on these verses in particular 3 times in the past, have you
missedc this? If so, I will do so again.'
Sincerely- Jeffrey
"17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not
come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth
disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means
disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one
of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called
least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands
will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your
righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will
certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
These?
LACNAC
Posts: 278 Hi Jeffrey,
(5/10/04 16:40)
Reply
Actually I must have missed it. I haven't been on the Board a lot lately and apologize
if I am asking you to repeat yourself. If you want to just either post the links to your
other responses or cut & paste your actual responses, that would be appreciated. Part
of my interest relates to your (as well as others) previous comments regarding "no
longer living under the Law" (paraphrasing) as stated by Paul. However, I would
argue (at least from my reading) that the quote from Matthew contradicts Paul's
viewpoint. One response could be look at the context of the Sermon on the Mount.
Who was this Sermon given to? If Christ's statements were only meant for those that
heard the Sermon and further, were only to apply to the time between he gave the
Sermon and the time of his crucifixion and resurrection, why state them at all? Not
only did Christ emphasize the importance of the Law but then spent a significant
amount of time clarifying (fulfilling) the Law. As I said, looking forward to reading
your comments.
O Jeffrey
Posts: 84 Thanks LACNAC,
(5/10/04 17:08)
Reply
Sometimes, as I read people's questions and know that they have gone to 'church
(be it NAC or other) for a number of years and still have questions about the Mosaic
Law and how or who it applies too, I realize how blessed I was as a Brand new
believer in Jesus Christ in 1987 and had NO Christian friends. But, I Knew WITHOUT
A DOUBT, that I had been born again and that I was drastically changed inside and
out!
I had such a deep hunger to know more about Jesus, to read the scriptures, pray... I
read in the Bible that the Spirit of Truth would guide me into alll truth and asked God
to do this
and set about studying and learning through His word, which I Shall do forever. God
has honored this and continues to help me grow. I never ever remember as I read
through the New Testament thinking thoughts like " Oh, here we go, obviously
Paul has a bit of an agenda Here! or, WOW This is completely contadictary to Jesus'
teachings...
No, In fact, the longer I studied, the more the pieces fit.
This has been my experience, and over the years I've learned that there are many
that never experience it like this.
This makes me wonder sometimes in discussions with people that never experience
the confidence or comfort that they absolutely have eternal life. I wonder, why don't
they know?
I wonder, why do they point to scriptures about the Jewish Law and following it when
they know they do not follow it, why do they not understand? Is it really that
confusing?
How did they, or do they study the scriptures?...
These questions run through my mind LACNAC.
I will endeavor to answer your specifics now that I've 'rambled 'sufficiently
LACNAC
Posts: 279 "I wonder, why do they point to scriptures about the Jewish Law and following it when
(5/10/04 17:27) they know they do not follow it, why do they not understand? Is it really that
Reply
confusing?
How did they, or do they study the scriptures?..."
As far as the confusing part, yes it really can be that confusing, hence volumes upon
volumes of biblical commentaries, 100's (if not 1000's) of different "Christian"
groups/sects/churches/etc. You raise an interesting issue about pointing to "Law"
scriptures and then not following them. We recently had a bible discussion/study
about Matthew 5:17-20 and many of these issues were brought up. I have to ask
myself, if I am not following the Law, should I be? Christ seemed to advocate it. "Now
this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom you have sent". If you truly believe in the inerrany of the Bible, then part of
"knowing" God would be "knowing" His Laws and conforming to them.
O Jeffrey
Posts: 86 LAC,
(5/10/04 17:32)
Reply
Hopefully, I can try to answer more fully tommorrow but I will post a short thought
that I previously posted
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to
destroy but to fulfill (give official sanction). For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven
and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all
(heaven and earth) is fulfilled (come to pass)."
*
But, the proper context of these verses can be understood in knowing that this was a
common Hebraism (Semitic idiom) that meant this: The religious leaders taught that
if one mis-interpreted the Law than he was 'destroying' the Law, but, if one
interpeted the law correctly he 'fulfilled the Law. Now read the verses that
immediately follow this in Matthew 5:18-48 And you see that Jesus of course
understood the accusation and He proceeds to properly 'fulfill' or interpret various
laws- "You have heard it said... but I say "....
-Jeffrey
ByGraceAlone
Registered User Jesus' Faith of Works
Posts: 197
(5/10/04 20:59) Quote:
Reply 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I
have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the
truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the
least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until
everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least
of these commandments and teaches others to do the same
will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever
practices and teaches these commands will be called great in
the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your
righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers
of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jeffrey - you continually concentrate on the first part of this bit of scripture - but
conveniently skip over Jesus' assertion in the second part (which I have bolded for
your convenience so you don't overlook it so easily this time). Please tell me how you
explain this statement? Was he just being sarcastic or facetious (since he already
knew this statement would be a lie once he died and everyone only had to believe
in him to be saved)? And if so - why would he point out many things about the
future to his disciples (which can be found in the Gospels) but skipped over the
"believe in me and you are saved" part?
regards,
JJD
JF ez Re: Jesus' Faith of Works
Registered User Do we then make the Law void through faith?
Posts: 2711
Let it not be! But we establish the Law.
(5/11/04 3:42)
Reply | Edit Romans 3:31
The law is not made void, neither by the grace nor doctrine of faith.
Not by the grace of faith; for that faith is not right which is not attended with works
of righteousness; and those works are not right which do not flow from faith. Such a
connection there is between faith and works; and so much do the one depend upon
the other. Moreover, none but believers are capable of performing good works aright,
and they do them, and they ought to do them.
Besides, faith, as a grace, looks to Christ, as the end of the law for righteousness,
and therefore do not make it void. Nor is it made void by the doctrine of faith, and by
the particular doctrine of a sinner’s justification by faith in Christ’s righteousness,
which is here more especially intended; for though it is made void by it, as to any use
of it for justification by the deeds thereof; yet its use in other respects is not set
aside, such as to inform us of the mind and will of God, to discover and convince of
sin, to show believers their deformity and imperfection, to render Christ and his
righteousness more valuable, and to be a rule of walk and conversation to them;
and it still remains a cursing and condemning law to Christless sinners, though
justified ones are delivered from it as such.
Yea, the law is so far from being made void, that it is established by this doctrine; for
by it the perpetuity of it is asserted, the spirituality of it is acknowledged, the perfect
righteousness of it is secured.
According to this doctrine all its demands are answered; whatever it requires it has,
such as holiness of nature, perfect obedience to its precepts, and its full penalty
borne.
It is placed in the best hands, where it will ever remain; and a regard to it is enforced
under the best influence, by the best of motives, and from the best of principles. It is
indeed abolished as a covenant of works, and in this sense is made void to believers;
and it is done away as to the form of administration of it by Moses; and it is
destroyed as a yoke of bondage; and the people of God are free from the malediction
of it, and condemnation by it, and so from its terror; yet it remains unalterable and
unchangeable in the hands of Christ; the matter of it is always the same, and ever
obligatory on believers, who, though they are freed from the curse of it, are not
exempted from obedience to it.
Wherefore the law is not made void, so as to be destroyed and abolished in every
sense, or to be rendered idle, inactive, useless, and insignificant; but, on the
contrary, is made to stand, is placed on a sure basis and firm foundation, as the
words used signify.
Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace?
Let it not be!
Romans 6:15
Here the apostle meets with an objection of the adversary, saying, that if men are not
under the law, and are free from all obligation to it, then they may live as they list;
nor can they be chargeable with sin, or that be objected to them; since where there
is no law, there is no transgression, and sin is not imputed where there is no law; and
if they are under grace, or in the love and favour of God, from which there is no
separation, then they cannot be damned, do what they will.
But this objection proceeds upon a mistaken sense of the phrase, "under the law"; for
believers, though they are not under the law as the ministry of Moses, yet they are
under it, as it is in the hands of Christ; and though not under its curse, yet under
obligation to obedience to it, from principles of love and grace; and a transgression of
it is sin in them, as in others; and which is taken notice of by God, and visited with
stripes in a fatherly way, though his loving kindness is not removed.
And to argue from the unchangeableness of God’s grace, or the doctrines of it, as
encouraging licentiousness, is greatly to abuse the grace of God, and manifestly
betrays such persons to be ignorant of it and its influence; since nothing more
powerfully engages to a love of holiness, and hatred of sin; wherefore the apostle,
answers to this objection in his usual way, God forbid; signifying his abhorrence of
everything of this kind.
JF ez Re: Jesus' Faith of Works
Registered User Wicked men turn or transfer the doctrine of grace from its original nature, design,
Posts: 2712
and use, to a foreign one. They may be said to turn it into lasciviousness, either by
(5/11/04 4:10)
Reply | Edit asserting it to be a licentious doctrine, when it is not; or by treating it in a wanton
and ludicrous manner, scoffing at it, and lampooning it.
Or by making the doctrine of grace universal, extending it equally alike to all

mankind, and thereby harden and encourage men in sin.
Instead of self-restraint they live lascivious lives. The warrant for this was found in
"the freedom of the children of God". From the very times of the apostles there have
been Antinomians who have held that what was sin to others might be permitted to
the sanctified. They asserted that the Spirit was not defiled by the sins of the body.
We ought to contend earnestly for the faith, in opposition to those who would corrupt
or deprave it; who creep in unawares; who glide in like serpents. And those are the
worst of the ungodly, who take encouragement to sin boldly, because the grace of
God has abounded, and still abounds so wonderfully, and who are hardened by the
extent and fulness of gospel grace, the design of which is to deliver men from sin,
and bring them unto God.
1 Peter 2:16 as free, and not having freedom as a cover of evil, but as servants of
God.
1 Peter 4:3 For the time of life which is past is enough for us to have worked out the
will of the nations, having gone on in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, parties,
carousings, and abominable idolatries.
2 Peter 2:19 promising them liberty, they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For
by whom anyone has been overcome, even to this one he has been enslaved.
2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are
some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as
also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
JF ez
Registered User By Patch Work Alone?
Posts: 2716 No one puts a piece of new cloth onto an old garment.
(5/11/04 13:35) Matthew 9:16
Reply | Edit
Much such a foolish part do those men under the Gospel dispensation act, who join
the righteousness of Christ, or a part of it, with their own, in order to make up
a justifying righteousness before God.
For Christ's righteousness is the only justifying righteousness; it is whole and perfect,
and needs nothing to be added to it, nor can it be parted any more than his seamless
coat was; nor a piece taken out of it.
Nor is there any justification by works, either in whole or in part; the old garment of
man's righteousness must be thrown away, in point of justification; it cannot be
mended in such a manner; and if any attempts are made in this way, the rent
becomes worse.
Such persons, instead of being justified, are in a worse condition; for they not only
set up, and exalt their own righteousness, which is criminal, but disparage the
righteousness of Christ as imperfect, by joining it to theirs; and whilst they fancy
themselves in a good state, are in a most miserable one; harlots and publicans being
nearer the kingdom of heaven than these, and enter into it before them; self-
righteous persons are more hardly, and with greater difficulty convinced, than such
sinners.
Moreover, nothing is more disagreeable than such a patch work; Christ's

righteousness and a man's own bear no likeness to one another; and such a patched
garment must ill become the character and dignity of a saint, a child of God, an heir
of heaven.
Edited by: JF ez at: 5/11/04 13:37
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: Jesus' Faith of Works
Posts: 87 LAC,
(5/11/04 13:54)
Reply
Hopefully, I can try to answer more fully tommorrow but I will post a short thought
that I previously posted
LACNAC,
You do know what 'try to answer more fully tommorrow 'means, don't you?
So please refrain from the 'I've bolded them for your convenience', or 'conveniently
skip over', remarks. Answer more fully means just that, and I intend to do so, this is
an interesting and important discussion. Thanks
ByGraceAlone
Registered User Understood
Posts: 201 Jeffrey - believe me - I understand what tomorrow means. I meant in your past posts
(5/11/04 14:48) of how ever many months you tend not to address that portion - so I am pointing out
Reply
that when you do reply - please make sure to address that portion as well (as well as
many of my other analyses you have also conveniently not responded to).
regards,
JJD
O Jeffrey
Registered User Re: Understood
Posts: 88 Matthew 5:17 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I
(5/11/04 14:53) have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Reply
II. Fulfilling–not abolishing–the Law
A. Jesus' Respect for the Law
Before Jesus makes any changes to His followers thinking, He connects with them by
talking about the thing most important to every seriously religious Jew–the Old
Testament–or the Law and the Prophets.
When Jesus refers to the Law, He is referring to the three different parts of the Jewish
law in the Old Testament: The MORAL law, the JUDICIAL law, and the CEREMONIAL
law.
When he speaks of the Prophets, He is speaking of all the authors that God used and
empowered by His Sprit to write messages, warnings, predictions and
encouragements.. both directly and indirectly... based on the Laws that God had
given to the nation of Israel.
And Jesus makes a broad and revelatory statement to His audience on the hillside
and to us. He says that He didn't come to abolish those MORAL, JUDICIAL and
CEREMONIAL laws that God had given, and that were reinforced by God through His
prophets. Rather, He came to fulfill them.
In fact, in the next verse, He reiterates what a high view of these laws He holds–so
no one can mistake His motives or motivation of what He's going to be teaching in
the next sections of this Sermon on the Mount. Look at verse 18...
Matthew 5:18 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the
smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the
Law until everything is accomplished.
The smallest letter to which he referred was a Hebrew letter about the size of an
apostrophe. The stroke of the pen to which he referred was what we would call a
serif, the little projection at the foot of a letter.
So, no one can doubt Jesus clear message. He has such a high view of God's Law in
the Old Testament that not even the smallest part of that law will be abolished while
heaven and earth still exist. So Jesus isn't going to abolish the Law. But He is going
to do something to it–He's going to fulfill it. But what does that mean? Well, let's look
at the three parts of the Law and examine what Jesus did to each as we look back at
history.
B. Fulfilling the Law
1. Judicial Law
Let's look at the Judicial law first. These were the laws that God gave to Israel to
govern them as a nation. These were laws relating to agriculture, settling disputes,
diet, cleanliness, dress, and other special standards that God expected of His chosen
nation. These laws were the first things that a Gentile saw that helped set Israel apart
from the rest of the world. But Jesus said He came to fulfill these Judicial laws. How
did this happen?
The Judicial law was fulfilled on the cross. Crucifying Jesus was the ultimate apostasy
committed by God's people, to God's Son. It was the final rejection of their promised
Messiah.
Matthew 27:25 25 All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our
children!"
John 19:15 15 But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked. "We have no king but Caesar," the chief
priests answered.
What this did was put an interruption to God dealing with the Jewish people as a
nation. And with that, the judicial law passed away–there was no longer a need for
distinction between the nation of Israel and the rest of the world. God had put a
divine parenthesis around His use for Israel as a chosen nation, and that status was
opened up to the Gentile world.
Matthew 21:43 43 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away
from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
The final blow happened just 37 years later when in 70 A.D. all of Jerusalem,
including the Temple, was razed to the ground by the Roman army under the
direction of Titus.
Now, let me say this. God isn't done with Israel yet. She is still His chosen nation. The
parenthesis will come to an end. In fact the end began in 1948 when she again
became a nation. But that new nationhood is in preparation for something much more
important. It is in preparation for her to be restored spiritually, just as Romans 9-11
teaches.
But for our understanding this morning, we need to see that the Judicial Law–the
nationally defining laws of Israel–were fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
2. Ceremonial Laws
What about the Ceremonial Laws? These laws governed Israel's worship. All the
ceremonial laws of cleansing and sacrifice and the priesthood were designed with only
one purpose in mind. To bring sinful people back into a relationship with a holy God.
Sacrifice and atonement were at the heart of this system that was repeated over and
over again in the lives of the Jewish people.
But when Jesus died on the cross–the perfect sacrifice–the lamb without blemish–He
brought all sacrifices to an end. The system of ceremony was fulfilled.
Matthew 27:51 51 At that moment (of Jesus' death) the curtain of the temple was
torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
Friends, if a human being had torn that curtain which separated the area that
represented the presence of God (the Holy of Holies) from the rest of the world, that
curtain would have been torn from the bottom to the top. But God from the heights of
heaven reached down and tore it in two from the position that only He could do it
from–from the top to the bottom.
And that act fulfilled and put to an end the need for the ceremonial laws of the Jewish
nation. Jesus was now accepted by God, as the perfect sacrifice to end all sacrifices.
All the sacrifices over the centuries before Calvary's cross could never save a person
from the consequences of their sin. They were merely pictures of the Messiah's work
of cleansing from sin. And once that was done, all the other ceremonial laws were
fulfilled.
Hebrews 10:19-22 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the
Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us
through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the
house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of
faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having
our bodies washed with pure water.
Because the reality had come, the pictures and representations could end. They were
fulfilled.
3. Moral Law
But what about the Moral Law? This was the foundational code. The 10
Commandments and all similar laws, which governed a person's relationships to other
people and to God, Himself. Those were the rules and regulations for everyday living.
These were the things that if you kept them you were blessed, and if you disobeyed
them, God punished.
The Moral Law was God's standard for restoring a relationship with Him. Keeping all
of the Moral Laws would entitle you to heaven–because you were perfect. But no one
ever made it. No human being was ever perfect–except Jesus. He fulfilled the Moral
Law by living a totally perfect life. He obeyed every commandment. He met every
requirement. And He lived up to every standard. He was the only human to ever do
that. So He fulfilled the Moral Law, and freed us from the penalty of not keeping it
perfectly.
Romans 10:4 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for
everyone who believes.
This verse is telling us that through God's grace, Jesus is able to give to each of His
followers the righteousness that He earned through His perfect life.
So, since we have that righteousness, does that give us license to ignore the Moral
Law? No it doesn't. Paul addressed this issue in
Romans 6:15 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under
grace? By no means!
Even though it was fulfilled by Jesus, the Old Testament Moral Law serves a very
important purpose for Christians and for society. It points out our inadequacy to
attain righteousness on our own. It keeps is humble. And it points out our need for a
Savior. And that will ultimately lead a person to Jesus.
III. Shift to Kingdom Requirements
Now, we come to verse 19. And in verse 19, Jesus makes a shift in this preamble. He
shifts from what was taught in the past by the religious teachers of the Jewish nation,
to what He is now going to teach His followers to do, as the Messiah.
Look at verse 19...
Matthew 5:19 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but
whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of
heaven.
The use of the word "these" (these commandments) now refers to what Jesus is
about to teach starting with verse 21 of this chapter and going on to verse 12 of
chapter 7.
So, let's look at the negative consequence, first.
A. Negative Consequence
In essence, Jesus is saying that if you choose to break any of the new
commandments; or if you choose to teach someone by what you say or by your
example... a lifestyle or a belief that is contrary to what Jesus teaches on murder,
adultery, divorce, oaths, getting even, treatment of your enemies, giving, prayer,
fasting, what should be valued, worry, judging, or asking God for things..., you will
experience a negative consequence.
And that consequence is that you will be least in the Kingdom of heaven.
Basically that means that you will experience NO blessing, NO reward, NO
fruitfulness, NO joy, and NO usefulness in your life as a Christian now, and you will
receive nothing but fire insurance from hell in the life to come.
2 John 8 8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you
may be rewarded fully.
The Bible teaches that there is a system of rewards for believers in heaven that are
earned by what we do on earth. And this verse teaches that if you choose to ignore
or go against Jesus commands in this sermon on the mount, you will receive none of
those rewards–that's what the least will receive–nothing!
B. Positive consequence
But, if you follow what Jesus is teaching in the rest of this sermon, and teach others
to do the same by what you say and what you practice, you will be called "great in
the kingdom of heaven."
Great implies rewards. In this life it will mean the rewards of blessing, fruitfulness,
joy, and usefulness in your life as a Christian.
And in the future, it will mean greatness in heaven. What that means, exactly, no one
knows. But I can tell you one thing, greatness is always to be prized far above the
least.
IV. Surpass the Pharisees
Finally Jesus ends the preamble with a clear instruction...
Matthew 5:20 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the
Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of
heaven.
The Pharisees and teachers of the law worked hard at keeping a system of laws that
when they were finally written down beginning in the middle of the 3rd century A. D.,
they filled up over 60 volumes of rules and regulations that they thought would earn
them salvation. There was no heart-change involved. It was all external and self-
centered.
But Jesus is saying in this verse that He wants His followers to obey His commands
because they come from the internal impetus of a changed heart. Jesus is looking for
men and women who have adjusted their value system to reflect Jesus' value
system; and they have made a commitment to be Christ-centered -a person who
thinks about Jesus first, before they act.
V. Conclusion
I believe this preamble is here, in front of some radical teachings, to challenge us.
These verses are here to get us to start realizing that Jesus is real and that we must
not play games in our relationship to Him. Because if we do, we'll suffer some
significant consequences- Pastor Tom
“To many Christians, Christ is little more than an idea, or at best an ideal--He is not a
fact. Millions of professed believers talk as if He were real and act as if He were not.
Our actual position is always to be discovered by the way we act, not by the way we
talk.” (A. W. Tozer in This World: Playground or Battleground?)
BGA, This answer is a clear case that I agree with as I have studied Matthew. I use
this because Pastor Tom presents it in a clearer outline than I can- Jeffrey

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Frustrations, Perceptions and Misunderstandings

I therefore took it that he was referring to that particular aspect.

The comments following then unfortunately became "personal" as Rudi responded to

Do we expect or demand instantaneous, en masse or individual, turn around to our

Much of what you have labeled misunderstanding is actually a clear understandings

I guess it is only acceptable when referring to sanitation engineers...? Einfaltspinsel...

"The tone makes the music"? ~ K

...laughter is not always sweet music

(anyone recall the choo-choo story from Major Payne?)

By the way, I wasn't criticizing you by talking about "peackeeping." My statement

I wish you well.

SUMMARY: If God has revealed Himself in absolute truth to Christians, why do

©2000 Perry Vernon Webb

This is his site: www.angelfire.com/tx/Perr...index.html

Edited by: O Jeffrey at: 5/5/04 8:27

A logical conclusion to come to would be...perhaps the "absolute truth" as held by

Edited by: BrendaP at: 5/5/04 14:25

> A couple of thoughts here JJD.

> Good question JJD!

Jesus specifically heals this man 'Born Blind' on the Sabbath

BrendaP Re: Participant

Now what do those advocating Jesus + think of Herb's post?

But what about Abraham?:

It wouldn't necessarily - read my next comment to see why.

I look forward to your comments.

for if it is of grace, then not of works;

but justification is by grace, and therefore not by works;

"Being justified freely by his grace", Ro 3:24

A few more inerrant texts to consider:

This is a good place to start.

Because it is the 'change in belief' that will 'change the behavior'!

Edited by: O Jeffrey at: 5/7/04 9:25

And if a faith is dead - can one receive salvation?

Jesus affirmed this:

How do you answer Jeffrey? How shalt thou "live"????

deaconess humble pie

Edited by: O Jeffrey at: 5/7/04 15:39

I would be interested in hearing (reading) your comments contrasting Galatians 3 and

with what Jesus said regarding the law in Matthew 5:17-20.

Here we must take care.

It is a great mistake to suppose that the proclamation of divine goodness in this

Or by making the doctrine of grace universal, extending it equally alike to all

Moreover, nothing is more disagreeable than such a patch work; Christ's

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