Women Mentoring Women in the Church

Insights from Pastor David Wolff

the lead pastor of a little church in a small, rural town in Eastern Washington.
While this is not his first time pastoring a church, he had only been with this
church for a few months at the time of this interview.

This interview was conducted on April 10, 2019 at 10am in the pastor’s office.
The interviewer questions appear in red.
WHAT ARE SOME OF THE VALUES YOU SEE IN MENTORING RELATIONSHIPS,
SPECIFICALLY IN THE ROLE OF WOMEN MENTORING WOMEN
WITHIN THE CHURCH SETTING?
“That’s a hard one to answer in a short way, but I’ll do my best. This is something that’s
lacking in today’s local church. And you always hear about mentoring young people and
that’s important, but women mentoring women, this is something, there’s all these
stereotypes and stigmas and everything else about women’s role in the local church, and
most of which, in my experience, I’ve seen, it’s not even Biblical, most of the expectations
that people have. So, mature Christian women mentoring other women is huge because
there’s a reality that comes in, there’s a a real…I like a word that you used…that authenticity.
A real authenticity comes to the top, you know, a lady that understands what the Bible says,
just on the subject of ladies and ladies’ roles and communicating that to another lady,
helping her to understand that, not just from that mentor’s perspective, but from the Bible’s
perspective, that’s huge. You know, we use words today like self-esteem and stuff like that,
well, there is self-esteem involved because a lot of the women’s roles in the local church
have put on women, it kind of demeans ladies in a lot of ways; it really does and it’s not
Biblical in any way, shape, or form. So, if I had to sum it up as short as possible, I would say
just to help in working towards a healthy local church, this is a huge, a huge part of that. Also,
there’s a clear Biblical understanding of an individual role.”
 HOW DO YOU SEE WOMEN MENTORING WOMEN IN THE CHURCH BEING
DIFFERENT THAN THE MENTORING THAT WE SEE OUT IN SOCIETY?

“That’s an excellent question! I like that. I think the biggest difference is, you know, the
world has a view of mentoring verses the local church’s view of mentoring. Remember
what the whole purpose of a local church is to be that instrument of Christ, so the focal
point changes. I mean, it’s not like a self-enhancing thing where we’re gonna
charge…we’re gonna rise up the ladder and we’re gonna achieve, you know, whatever
success. Uh, in the local church, it’s about one relationship at a time and not only
building that relationship but maintaining that relationship, and you don’t really see that
like in the “corporate” kind of mindset; it’s more like if I have to step on you to get to
where I want to go, I’m gonna do that, and in the local church, it’s completely contrary to
that. We’re about furthering that person; the idea for a mentor, when you’re mentoring is
that you want your mentee to do better than you. You know, you want to bring whatever
you can into their lives to help them succeed in anything and everything that God has
for them, and if that means that they achieve more “success” than you, the more is the
better. You know, it’s kind of like opposite of the secular mindset.”
WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT QUALITIES THAT
ARE NECESSARY FOR MENTORING RELATIONSHIPS TO BE
PRODUCTIVE AND SUCCESSFUL?
“I think the biggest thing, and this is based on some of my own experience and
my own study and just dealing with people as a whole, but I think one of the most
important tools, if you wanna call it that, that a mentor can have is humility. You
know, understanding that it is a huge responsibility that you are taking on. I
mean, the idea is that you are looking at another, as a Christian lady looking for
the betterment of another Christian lady, the idea is for her to really want God’s
best for that that person that she’s mentoring. You know, and this applies for men
as well, but seeing as how we are in the context of ladies, mentoring ladies, um, I
think humility and the ability to take one’s self out of the equation, you know, and
really be looking for the betterment of the other, I think that’s one of the primary
issues there, or there’s many other things, but I, I would call that the first…that’s a
good starting point for you right there…
WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT QUALITIES THAT
ARE NECESSARY FOR MENTORING RELATIONSHIPS TO BE
PRODUCTIVE AND SUCCESSFUL?
(CONTINUED)
…Otherwise, you approach the mentoring more as, you know, here’s a notch on
my, on my list or whatever, I got another person that I’m mentoring…you know,
there’s that danger. I don’t think people necessarily mean to do that, but
sometimes that happens. You know, I’m mentoring 20 people now! Oh, great! But
are you really ministering as you’re doing that? I think for the mentee, so to
speak, just having a student’s heart, you know, again, it kinda goes back to that
humility, uh, being willing to learn and prepared to learn. There’s a, this is not a
word that is used a lot in the secular, especially in the secular workplace, but
being humble, you know, recognizing that I can, and need, to learn from this
person. You know, and just have that heart set.”
 WHAT KIND OF COMMUNICATION SKILLS ARE IMPORTANT
FOR THE MENTEE TO KEEP IN MIND?
“I think the biggest thing is the ability to listen. I know in my own personal experience,
there’s been times where you’re not sure whether the person that you’re trying to
mentor is actually hearing what you’re saying because there’s a lot of almost pushback
in their feedback, you know. Uh, where you just don’t know, and I think one of the things
that would rise to the top in my heart would be the ability to listen and that goes for the
mentor, as well. You know you have to, even when there is that pushback, you have to
have the ability to hear you know so that you really truly can meet them right where they
are. The mentee, sometimes they challenge you. Like if you’re mentoring somebody, as
you see the mentee responding to the mentoring material and the relationship and
they’re growing, it’s a challenge for you to maintain, you know, at the growth rate that
you’re seeing in them, so you’re personally challenged in your walk with the Lord, and
uh, which is good; at the same time, you’re wanting to see them shine, just to but It can
be very challenging. I think it should be. It shouldn’t be a one-way street by any means.”
 ALONG WITH LISTENING, AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT IS THAT OF PERCEPTION-
CHECKING. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT, BECAUSE I CAN LISTEN TO YOU AND I CAN
HEAR YOU, BUT UNLESS I CHECK IN WITH YOU AND CONFIRM THAT I AM
UNDERSTANDING CORRECTLY, THEN I THINK THAT IS THE OTHER HALF OF IT.
WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
“Yes. I wouldn’t say necessarily 100% of the time because there’s different
circumstances where there’s like a direct, you know, feed where, especially,
you’re talking about Christian ladies mentoring, you know, other Christian ladies,
um, there’s a Bible base, so sometimes you’re speaking something that God has
already said and so it’s you know, but even at that, you want to make sure that if
there is not an understanding there, there’s that authenticity again, you know that
genuineness there, uh, where they’re comfortable enough to to say, okay,
pause…let’s make sure that I’m tracking with you correctly because I don’t want
to move forward on this with the wrong baseline, you know. There are a lot of
really strong personalities that they’ll find like a curriculum or some kind of a
study and they’ll just try to, you know, charge through it. And you can do that, but
is that really being effective for the mentee?...
 ALONG WITH LISTENING, AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT IS THAT OF PERCEPTION-
CHECKING. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT, BECAUSE I CAN LISTEN TO YOU AND I CAN
HEAR YOU, BUT UNLESS I CHECK IN WITH YOU AND CONFIRM THAT I AM
UNDERSTANDING CORRECTLY, THEN I THINK THAT IS THE OTHER HALF OF IT.
WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
(CONTINUED)
…You know, I don’t even think for the mentor it’s really challenging unless you’re
just trying to achieve, well here’s another one that I’ve mentored and I’m moving
on, you know, to the next one. I think it’s important, it’s gonna come back to that a
lot, this meeting that person right where they are. It’s relationship based. The
idea is that it’s not just during this time of mentoring, but once we’re done with
this particular part of that, we remain in this healthy relationship moving forward
even as that mentee is preparing to mentor somebody else having that line of
communication with their mentor to say hey, I’m in this situation and I remember
you and I had talked about this and this what would you advise? You know what I
mean? So, there’s ongoing communication there – that’s huge.”
 WHAT TYPES OF COMMUNICATION ERRORS DO YOU THINK IT IS
IMPORTANT FOR MENTORS AND MENTEES TO AVOID?
WHAT WOULD STAND OUT TO YOU AS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT?

“I think one of the biggest, yeah, I would call it a problem, is is assuming. You know,
assuming that the person that you’re communicating with or attempting to communicate
with knows what you’re talking about. You know, there’s a, there’s a misconception even
as Christians, when we try to share the Gospel, I’m gonna go off the grid a little bit here,
um, we, often times, when we’re talking to somebody, we assume that they know what we
know and they just haven’t made the right decision. That’s not always a safe, you know,
bet. Uh, in a mentoring environment, you can assume, I mean, you may not be sharing
the Gospel with them, but whatever it is that you’re bringing, you may assume that they
know or have some kind of basis about what you’re bringing, and if they don’t, then
you’re not communicating effectively, you’re, you’re, they’re hearing the words, and yeah,
they’re going, yeah, ok, but you’re really not meeting them right where they are, again,
because they don’t have any kind of a basis to to, you know, connect with that...
 WHAT TYPES OF COMMUNICATION ERRORS DO YOU THINK IT IS
IMPORTANT FOR MENTORS AND MENTEES TO AVOID?
WHAT WOULD STAND OUT TO YOU AS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT?
(CONTINUED)

…So, I would say assumption is one of the worst things. I mean it’s something to
definitely try to avoid. I, I always use the word, even here, uh, in fact last night we had a
meeting, the deacons and elders met, uh, and a lot of the terminology I used is we can’t
overcommunicate. In other words, if there’s a question that and maybe there’s five or six
of us, everyone of us is potentially gonna hear the same thing and take something else
away from it. So, if you’re looking around and you’re kinda hearing things somebody is
saying and going wait a minute that’s not how I took it, let’s over communicate that. In
other words, let’s go there again and say ok, and you said this earlier, so am I
understanding you to say such and such? You know, if you don’t do that, if we don’t do
that, then there’s an assumption that it landed well and is gonna have a positive result,
you know, so yeah, I think assumption is a big thing to avoid.”
 CAN YOU ANSWER THE SAME QUESTION
FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE MENTEE?

“I think, and this may sound odd, but dishonesty. I’ll explain that because I know I’ve
been on that that end of it. As a young Christian, I remember a man that, he was
discipling me, you know, mentoring me, and I didn’t want to seem like an idiot when he
was talking about some stuff so I, I tried to play along, you know and it just got me to a
place where I’m going what? I think being honest is the most important…if you don’t get
it, tell your mentor, I don’t get it. So, I think trying to avoid dishonesty and
misrepresentation…It goes back also to that meeting, you know, it’s not just the mentor
meeting the mentee, you know where they are, but the same thing the mentee looking at
the mentor going this is what I know about you and I know that you’re interested in my
wellbeing otherwise we wouldn’t be having this, you know, time together, uh kind of a
thing, so there’s a mutual meeting one another where you are kind of a thing and it’s all
humility based. It really is, and if it’s not, chances are it’s gonna go a different direction,
so…
 CAN YOU ANSWER THE SAME QUESTION
FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE MENTEE?
(CONTINUED)

…You know, something I always try to teach, even some of the young guys that were
coming into the pastor-in-training program, you know, we had to mentor these guys and
you know just like the rest of us that went through it were mentored and there’s two key
words here, uh, the world has has a selfish approach, but but in Christianity, we have a
selfless approach where it’s about the other person. There’s two opposite worlds there. It
sounds real basic, real simple, but it it’s not that easy to remember sometimes. It really
isn’t. You know, because even when you’re going through the training, you want to
achieve your goal, you know, and you want to do well and you want to move forward, and
so sometimes you can get kinda, you know, self-focused and self-driven. Not that being
driven is bad, but you gotta make sure that you’re not acting like the world and running
over people.”
THERE HAS BEEN A CONNECTION DRAWN BETWEEN AUTHENTICITY AND TRUST
IN MENTORING RESEARCH. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WAYS A MENTOR
COULD WORK TO FOSTER BOTH OF THESE COMPONENTS?

“I think this goes back to the very beginning of why a mentor is even in that role and I
think transparency is is one of the biggest things. If you come in with an attitude of, you
know, I’m so right, I’m so awesome, I never make mistakes, chances are your mentee is
gonna go what? So the idea is to make sure that they know that you’re a flawed human
being just like everybody else. And the reason that you’re able to help, and this is where
the being Christians is so huge is because we’re both in Christ and we have Him and His
word as direction in our lives and it’s only because of Him and so there’s that that
humbleness that that we show by being transparent. That way, you know, the mentee
sees that and says you know what? I can connect with this individual because they’re
real, you know? And they seem like they’re understanding because, maybe in some
cases, they have some of the same, you know, experiences or background, whatever it
might be. Not that that’s required, but just being willing to be transparent. Huge.
Absolutely huge.”
 DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER THOUGHTS, IDEAS, OR SUGGESTIONS
THAT HAVE NOT COME UP THAT YOU THINK ARE
IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF HEALTHY MENTORING RELATIONSHIPS?

“Well in the context of ladies mentoring ladies, I think that, um, we kinda touched on it in
the beginning there, I think this is something that is so lacking today and I don’t know
where it started or why it started, but it just seems like it’s an area that gets overlooked.
And, um, I think that as a Pastor, you know, I think that pastors, generally, we should take
this more serious in the churches where God has entrusted us as under shepherds. So
then when there’s people with a heart like your own - I’ve heard another lady in this
congregation – talk about this, kind of a Titus 2 mentality, um, I completely agree – it’s
very Biblical, you know, and yet, it’s just not happening. You know, so I guess if I had to
sum it up, I would say that I agree with the importance of of this needing, not only to be
understood as a need, but then being addressed, you know, accordingly. In other words,
ladies, let’s find a way to get this done. And whatever support church leadership has to
give in that area, let’s just do it, you know."
 IT IS MY EXPERIENCE THAT MENTORING CAN BE SEEN AS A DISCIPLING
RELATIONSHIP DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DIFFERENT
RELATIONSHIPS. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT?

“Yes. And I think that those two components really do need to intermix in order for it to
be effective. I really do because in mentoring, if you’re not, if you’re not taking the
discipleship kind of a heart set in there, then again, it goes back to where we started, it’s
like, why are we doing this again? You know, because the idea is you want this individual
to become closer to Christ and to just thrive in His ministry. You know, if you have any
other kind of approach to it then I don’t know that I’d even call it mentoring, at least not
from a Biblical perspective.”
IF OUR CHURCH WAS TO HOLD ANOTHER DISCIPLESHIP CLASS (FOR EVERYONE)
AND I WAS, SIMULTANEOUSLY TRYING TO GET THE WOMEN ON BOARD WITH A
WOMEN MENTORING WOMEN IN THE CHURCH PROGRAM, IN YOUR MIND, AS
PASTOR OF THE CHURCH, DO YOU SEE THESE AS RELATED BUT ALSO
DIFFERENT ENOUGH THAT THEY BOTH HAVE A PLACE AND THEY ARE BOTH
NECESSARY? IN OTHER WORDS, COULD YOU AGREE WITH SOMEONE WHO FEELS
THAT WE DO NOT NEED BOTH BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME THING?
“You know, I’d have to say no. I, I think that we do need both, and I don’t think they are
exactly the same thing. This is something, again uh, as a pastor, I’ll just tell you this is my
own pet peeve…I hate the word program…not because I think programs are bad but
because of people’s perceptions of programs. And I’ve seen so many churches where
they’re filled with Christ-loving people that love the Lord and love each other, but they
get so wrapped up in a “program” that they lose track of why they’re doing, and even
what they’re doing, that you know, it becomes program based. Uh, and to me, mentoring
and discipling and all this is meant to meet one another where we are. It’s all
relationship based. Everybody’s not the same…
(continued)

…Uh, you can’t say that (laughs), well maybe you can, but I won’t…but ladies don’t
necessarily have the same discipleship needs as men and young people – they don’t
have the same discipleship needs as young adults or senior adults or somewhere in
between adults. Everybody has needs, but they’re not all the same, so the idea is to
personalize that, and if there’s more than one person that’s in that area, then you bring
them into as you can, too, or you bring in more mentors or more “disciplers. Do you
know what I mean? So many times we want to accomplish so much so we’ll simplify it
to the point to where we’ve oversimplified it and and then people fall through the
cracks, but at the same time, you know, we can make it so complicated that people
don’t fall through the cracks, but they run as fast as they can away from it. So, again,
the idea is meeting people right where they are. I know I’ve said that about fifteen
times, but this is, this is where my heart is; it always has been, and this is the way I was
taught. And, you know, you look through Scripture and so many times, even think
about Jesus and His example: the Samaritan lady, you know, and we go down so many
different examples…He met them right there, right where they are, and not with
criticism, not with judgment, just right there. Even with the Pharisees and Sadducees,
um, there was a direct line, He was calling them out for what they were, you know, but
He was meeting them right where they were, so even in that context, you know, I can’t
overemphasize the importance of that.”
IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE IDEA OF TRANSFORMATIONAL LEADERSHIP
THAT YOU FEEL IS IMPORTANT TO YOU AS THIS TYPE OF LEADER?

“Well, there’s a lot and I’ll try not to do a lot, but I can tell you as a Pastor coming into a
new ministry, and this isn’t the first time…you’re on unknown ground, you don’t know the
people, you don’t fully understand the dynamics of the existing leadership or lack
thereof or whatever the case may be. One of the things, you know, it goes back to kind of
the whole question series that we’ve done here, you want to lead and you want to be in
that position that God has called and equipped you for, but at the same time, in order to
do that effectively, you have to earn the trust of those that you’re intending to lead. Um,
but the biggest thing is remember that we’re all, again, in the Christian context, we’re all
servants of Christ first and secondly to one another as a result of that servitude to the
Lord. So, coming in to that, again, there’s a contrast. The world wants you to to just rise to
the top and do whatever you have to to get there. You know, it’s opposite land. You’re
trying to do what God wants you to do, but you’re doing it in a way where you’re taking
yourself out of the equation, if that makes sense…
IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE IDEA OF TRANSFORMATIONAL LEADERSHIP
THAT YOU FEEL IS IMPORTANT TO YOU AS THIS TYPE OF LEADER?
(CONTINUED)

…Um, you could come in and say, we’ll I’m better at this and I’m better at that and you’re
not very good at that, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna jump into that role and just push you aside or
you can just prayerfully and carefully approach it the way the Lord wants you to and let
the Lord develop that because you’re surrounded by others that love the Lord and love
each other as well. Uh, so I think just remembering, having a servant’s heart; it’s service
first. Instead of, you know, our president, years ago, said ask not what your country can do
for you but what you can do for your country. I think that principle applies to Christianity.
Not what can I get, but what can I do? And when there’s tension and hostility, you know, a
lot of times, when we remove ourselves out of that equation, we’re going huh, maybe
things aren’t quite as heated as they were now because I’m no longer trying to force my
issues. Christianity, a lot of people think that once you get saved, everything, and you
work around other Christians, everything is going to be perfect; not the case. We’re still
human. The servant’s heart is the key.”
(D. Wolff, personal communication, April 10, 2019)